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Hazardous Games

     The story-line behind the convulsions shaking the money centers of the world is such a hopeless labyrinth of mathematical metaphysics because abstraction unto infinity is the last refuge of those seeking to evade reality. This is why individual human beings faced with terrible choices go crazy, and it is true of societies and nations, too. 
     Reality is so boringly concrete. The facts just sit there implacably like dull cement bollards in a roadway, waiting for impact with objects in motion. These facts are as follows:
     The world is dead broke. (By “world” I mean those places where the electricity is on more than it is off.) The world spent all of its future capital to stage an orgy of blow-out development and then the future arrived and there was no money to run everything.
     To make matters worse, there are massive interest payments due on all that money misspent. Nobody has the means to pay the interest. All the activity around this fact is an Olympiad of money games that amount to musical chairs and hot potato, signifying that 1) there is not enough to go around, and 2) somebody has to end up stuck with a problem. 
     The orgy averred to above coincided with the last years of cheap and abundant energy supplies to run the development. That’s over and done with, too, despite the strenuous efforts of wishful thinkers, cornucopian propagandists, and corporate racketeers to pretend that technological magic can make up for dwindling cheap supplies.
     The net effect of all this is that advanced societies all over the planet have entered a comprehensive compressive contraction of activity and, more ominous, of technological progress. The world can’t cope with contraction. For one thing, it wreaks havoc in the mechanisms of capital formation. Capital can only be formed under conditions where interest can be paid. That is, loans are only tenable when they can be paid back with interest. Hence, the current insanity in world financial markets and banks – the mad scramble to pretend that interest payments will be made on bailouts tendered to nations that cannot make interest payments.
     The assumption that this craziness can go on forever without consequence is now dissolving in an international mood of frantic despair. The spotlight for the moment is on Europe because that is where the games of hot potato and musical chairs with the most players are underway. The mutual entanglements over money tendered and interest owed are so complex and abstruse that the number of moves needed to complete the games seems infinite. But trafficking with infinity is itself one of the universe’s most hazardous ventures – it invariably ends in the death of the adventurer. What’s more, the trajectory to that sorry ending accelerates fastest in the last moments of the venture. Hence, expect Europe to melt down like an overheated nuclear reactor, with an aftermath of deadly political goop oozing out to make parts of the continent unable to support human life at levels we are currently familiar with, i.e. civilized society.
     That is to say I’d expect a lot of internal disorder in the nations of Europe in the decade to come, before there is even a chance of anything that resembles war between nations breaking out – and by the time war does occur, it may be fought with crude swords and helmets forged out of the scavenged detritus of a bygone age.
     The current extravaganza across the Atlantic Ocean has taken the spotlight off doings here in our own colossal floundering confederation of quasi-sovereign American states. Our situation with money spent and interest due – and the resulting impairment of capital operations – only seem less dire in comparison. It’s just that we are playing a different game than hot potato and musical chairs. Our game is more like the old American schoolyard game called salugi (suh-looj-gee), or “keep-away.” The “big kids” (the one percenters) like Jamie Dimon, Jon Corzine, Lloyd Blankfein, et al, have stolen the baseball mitts of the dweeby little kids (the 99 percenters) so that most of the people in this country feel that they cannot participate in the national pastime anymore. The big kids have certain advantages, obviously, but sooner or later they run the risk of being torn to pieces by the vengeful mob. Of course, that happens when the game stops being simple keep-away but seems more and more a matter of larceny — “they stole our mitts!”
     When that moment arrives anything might happen politically here in the North America, from a corn-pone Nazi takeover of central government to a complete dissolution of the republic into autonomous and even hostile regions. Similar games and outcomes are possible in China, Russia, and the nations of the Middle East. In fact, the tendency world-wide in the face of accelerating compressive contraction will be to break up large political units into smaller units. The main question is: how much heat will that process of global fission generate as we lurch into a world made by hand.
 

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View all posts by James Howard Kunstler
James Howard Kunstler is the author of many books including (non-fiction) The Geography of Nowhere, The City in Mind: Notes on the Urban Condition, Home from Nowhere, The Long Emergency and the four-book series of World Made By Hand novels, set in a post economic crash American future. His most recent book is Living in the Long Emergency; Global Crisis, the Failure of the Futurists, and the Early Adapters Who Are Showing Us the Way Forward. Jim lives on a homestead in Washington County, New. York, where he tends his garden and communes with his chickens.

861 Responses to “Hazardous Games”

  1. jimbolio June 18, 2012 at 8:41 am #

    Good essay this morning, Jim.

  2. Leibowitz Society June 18, 2012 at 8:42 am #

    Reality may be coming toward us in a big hurry, but reality avoidance is what most people still practice. The net result is that we are in the first stages of a new Dark Age and that the “lights are going out” soon all over the world, and that Greece is just the first canary in the coal mine.
    Visit the Leibowitz Society at http://leibowitzsociety.blogspot.com/2012/06/drachma-drama.html for information and discussion about the coming Dark Age and how to prepare for it.

  3. shecky June 18, 2012 at 8:48 am #

    tumbrils. love me some tumbrils. old school low tech class warfare. oh fuck yeah. jamie’s dyin’.
    xoxo shecky defarge

  4. BeingThere June 18, 2012 at 8:51 am #

    Thanks as always for your acute observations. I posted this an hour ago, but will repost:
    A Tale of Two Countries
    Sadly, we have learned that Greece fell for the scare tactics of the IMF, that they would bring down the world economy if they didn’t take their medicine and go for abject austerity.
    As Max Keiser described a few months ago, Steve Forbes who wouldn’t be worth a dime if it weren’t for daddy, was in Athens to oversee the selling off of Greek Islands for way less than they’re worth–but that, is the process you know.
    Contrast this pathetic caving in to the banksters by the Greek people to Iceland, where they said NO to the IMF and threw their banksters into jail. They now have a bustling economy and are raising their interest rates to keep up with their growth.
    Yes, there are other options and Iceland listened to guest economist Michael Hudson last year. The thing that none of our masters of the universe want us to know is that there are other answers to a problem.
    Greece has to make changes, but this extreme program they’ve agreed to is not the answer. Now, of course our pundits are chortling, they say our economy has been saved (perhaps for the elections).
    The best thing that could happen would be if austerity were rejected along with the Euro, total abject failure. I wonder who will stand against the global regime. If Iceland can do it, so can others.
    This crazy system will continue for now, but as JHK says, it’s not producing capital and is not sustainable.
    —- LB

  5. mow June 18, 2012 at 8:51 am #

    sigh …

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  6. kulturcritic* June 18, 2012 at 8:51 am #

    We really need to get focused on the underlying problem, James.
    http://kulturcritic.wordpress.com/posts/tilting-at-windmills-gellasenheit-and-the-alchemy-of-wonder/
    all my best, kulturCritic

  7. Zev Paiss June 18, 2012 at 8:56 am #

    Good read this morning Jim. It is almost funny to see how elected leaders refuse to acknowledge the reality of the times. I understand that they “can’t,” but that does nothing to change the fact that reality is still king.
    For those looking for an inspiring read about how we finally turn this around by 2060, check out the new novel “From Here to There” at http://www.fromhere-tothere.org
    Have a great week everyone.

  8. shecky June 18, 2012 at 8:57 am #

    and the meek shall inherit the dearth.

  9. Moondog June 18, 2012 at 8:59 am #

    The worst white collar crimes in history go unpunished, with not the slightest effort to even give the appearance of the rule of law. Our feckless Presidential candidates are incapable of telling the truth, and no one in either party would dare utter the word that we need to hear, process and come to grips with: contraction. The smack upside the collective American face will be painful when reality hits us hard, as resources dwindle and all the credit and phony money become worthless.

  10. Al Klein June 18, 2012 at 9:01 am #

    So long as we as a people keep believing that getting something for nothing is both possible and a worthy goal in life, we will continue to be defrauded by banksters and the other assorted financial shysters.

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  11. Neon Vincent June 18, 2012 at 9:03 am #

    Well, I learned two things. First, what a bollard is. Thank you for expanding my vocabulary. Second, that you could write today’s essay and make your point without using Greece as an example. I’d have bet money on you doing so, and I’d have lost.
    As for the Austerians, they may be onto something (we’re facing contraction), but they are, at least publicly, using the wrong rationale for it. They still think the world economy is capable of growth and austerity is the way to get there. They’re wrong on multiple counts, but that’s not stopping them. Of course, if they understood the rationale for what’s going on, they might have to choose an austerity very different from what they’re doing, one that would be better for more people instead of just themselves and people like them.
    As for the “corn-pone [fascist] takeover of…government,” we’re experiencing that on a small scale here in Michigan. The local corn pone fascists are running the Michigan legislature like the Italian Parliament in its last days under Mussolini, but with TV cameras watching. This has led to the spectacle of “vagina” popping up all over the internet and female legislators from the opposition performing “The Vagina Monologues” on the steps of the State Capitol tonight as literal political theater.
    People are also trying to throw out a local corn pone fascist as mayor of Troy and people nationwide are shocked by corn pone fascists from Ohio holding a severed pig’s head aloft at the Arab International Festival in Dearborn. When I moved here from California 23 years ago, I thought that Michigan might be boring. Ha! Joke’s on me!
    I blogged about all the above, plus the plans for a new U.S.-Canada bridge, the latest ups and downs of the gas price rollercoaster, and a bake sale for NASA over at Crazy Eddie’s Motie News. If you want me to write about something else or hold me to my promises I’ve made here about what I’d write about, leave me a comment. I’m tired of being visited by the Viagra spammers.
    Happy Motoring–for now–from Detroit!
    http://crazyeddiethemotie.blogspot.com/

  12. scarlet runner June 18, 2012 at 9:06 am #

    Its never been a better time to value and protect the important things: the physical world of the green and the growing, and your personal strength and health. Happy running!

  13. Moondog June 18, 2012 at 9:08 am #

    Exactly so, Al. The big money interests are entwined inextricably with the political system, corrupting everything. Is there an honest broker anywhere who stands a chance against the mighty forces of money and power arrayed against the 99% of us?

  14. charliefoxtrot June 18, 2012 at 9:13 am #

    it occurs to me that TPTB seem to think they re prepared for the flash mob (NDAA, Citizens United, FEMA camps, DHS bullets, etc), but i think they miss an important point: once we reach the point of quitting the game of keep away, we ve nothing left to lose; when the ‘big kids’ try to walk away with those mitts (loot) and attempt to bully the rest of us into playing bare-handed, the inevitable violence is only going to create more resistance…and eventually, offense…those infamous tumbrils are low-tech, after all, and can be created from scavenged bits of infrastructure and cars that are out of gas a people with nothing left to lose have everything to take- and well, fuck, it was ours in the first place!

  15. fiedag June 18, 2012 at 9:15 am #

    Morning Jim.
    Hey I have a request. Surely with your readership you could expand Eyesore of the Month to become Eyesore of the Week? And include a link to it at the end of your weekly post?
    Also I do enjoy your musings on architecture and new urbanism. More of that please.
    Finally I think you are too quick to write off Europe as a terminal political basket-case. The centre may hold there better than in many other places.

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  16. conchscooter June 18, 2012 at 9:16 am #

    This thing will stretch out forma very long time. Printing money, postponing the final reckoning is human nature. Faced with the possibility of reaching a conclusion Greek voters decided to keep on keeping on, as will we all when our chance to die in the glorious combustion of revolution. Better the devil we know than the devil we don’t. Iceland is the exception because they made their choice almost unobserved and have been left out of he picture let we learn their lesson and fight back.
    That’s why they are grooming Marco Rubio for President after President Obama finishes his second term. The script is written, play your part and don’t fight back for the pain of revolution is more than you can bear.

  17. ozone June 18, 2012 at 9:23 am #

    ‘Nother zinger there, Mr. James.
    “The big kids have certain advantages, obviously, but sooner or later they run the risk of being torn to pieces by the vengeful mob. Of course, that happens when the game stops being simple keep-away but seems more and more a matter of larceny — “they stole our mitts!” -JHK
    This dynamic keeps popping up, and I believe it will be the defining spear-point of our times.
    To wit: The race between real awareness/awakening of the populace and the iron-fisted crackdown by those who would enslave them.
    Place your [non-welshable] wagers and choose up sides, Poppets.

  18. charliefoxtrot June 18, 2012 at 9:31 am #

    i would suggest that the only ‘austerity’ that has a remote chance of keeping our wawki is to impose it on the 1% for a change: let jammie (shaddup, kyoo-check; that s a pun, not spelling error) and his ilk live on $8,000/year in order to let them see the impact they ve had on us…fuck, out of touch with reality doesn t begin to describe these bastards! i bet the piece of shit has suits that cost more than that…

  19. lsjogren June 18, 2012 at 9:31 am #

    “The main question is: how much heat will that process of global fission generate as we lurch into a world made by hand.”
    Well, sadly to say, a world made by hand can only sustain a small fraction of the current human population, so the transition from here to there inevitably involves the death of most of the human population, the only question is by what mechanism- war, starvation, epidemic, some combination?

  20. ozone June 18, 2012 at 9:32 am #

    “Rollin’, rollin’, rollin’; keep those tumbrils rollin…”
    Interesting that Conchscooter observes that the cycle of self-delusion can be carried on for another decade. Mebbe so. IF so, I would tend to place my bet on the ascendancy of the corn-pone nazis. I will not join, so woe betide me. Oh well, gotta get gone from somethin’, somehow.

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  21. Moondog June 18, 2012 at 9:34 am #

    W’s eloquent statement on economic collapse, “This sucker could go down,” just as he was about to head out the door, resounds and reverberates. I keep in mind while I read Jim’s prognostications that the American Empire is a juggernaut of a size history has never seen, and his “any day now” must be tempered with an understanding that the inevitable unraveling and contraction will take time, a lot more than Jim suggests excepting the appearance of a black swan or two.

  22. Cam Mather June 18, 2012 at 9:40 am #

    … and as things unfold a little more personal resilience won’t hurt to help you “Thrive During Challenging Times” http://www.cammather.com/

  23. noel bodie June 18, 2012 at 9:43 am #

    It was JHK who first made the observation that, perhaps our politics would be incapable of solving problems/conditions of the present/future. He seems prophetic. I, for one, will start attending political talks and start TALKING BACK to the pols. Demand policies instead of slogans and glittering generalities!

  24. charliefoxtrot June 18, 2012 at 9:45 am #

    one thing that gives me a modicum of hope is that we as a society HAVE experienced this century of excess- when the contraction happens, and that iron fist descends; We The People, for the first time in the history of slavery, KNOW WHAT WE RE MISSING…it is far easier to oppress and subjugate a class of people who don t know anything different, and who have never hoped for anything else…but when you finally tell the NASCAR nation that the race is over for everyone but the crew chiefs, we aren t going to meekly line up for the hotdog vendor while they eat filet and foi gras; that puny little thirty foot fence can t keep us ALL out of the infield/gated community…

  25. ozone June 18, 2012 at 9:48 am #

    Getch’er bollards here; red hot bollards; bollards here…
    http://www.globalindustrial.com/c/safety/parking-lot/protectors-bollards

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  26. ozone June 18, 2012 at 10:00 am #

    I hope you are correct.
    Keep those thumbs limber! ;o)

  27. SeaYoung June 18, 2012 at 10:04 am #

    North Carolina’s corn pone legislature recently outlawed sea level rise from Global Climate Change and wish to include bars and restaurants as appropriate places to carry a concealed handgun.

  28. malthus June 18, 2012 at 10:06 am #

    “a world made by hand.” If only.

  29. progress2conserve June 18, 2012 at 10:11 am #

    Thanks for the week’s work, JHK.
    Contraction is coming.
    No, contraction is here.
    And it’s a permanent outgrowth of the fact that 7 billion humans++ have reached the physical limits of our finite planet.
    All regions of the globe will face the contraction, sooner or later – and sooner is better, as far as avoiding human pain and death.
    On our present trajectory, contraction will come to the US later, rather than sooner.
    Why?
    Because we have the biggest military.
    And our population growth (due to immigration) justifies using our military and political/economic power – to feed and protect this GROWING population.
    Reduce immigration into the US, and you reduce the looming disaster for the US and the rest of the world. Let’s do it!
    https://www.numbersusa.com/content/resources/video/educational/immigration-world-poverty-and-gumballs-updated-2010.html

  30. ccm989 June 18, 2012 at 10:13 am #

    Once again, we dodge the bullet. Greece agrees to the austerity terms which somehow keeps the ball rolling and the world turning. So basically the theory that dropping the Euro for the Drachma would result in Doomsday is delayed yet again. Well, I for one, am happy about that. We already have enough poverty, suffering, etc. all over the USA. Why add to that?
    Sometimes kicking the can down the road works. It worked today. I am still employed, my kids still have a roof over their heads, etc. Now if we can ever get Citizens United overturned, I will do cartwheels. But for now, I will just be happy that Greece and the world (even with massive usury debt and with oil being sucked bone dry) still stand.

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  31. William Hunter Duncan June 18, 2012 at 10:25 am #

    Our president is a methodical death dealer, and vicious America just yawned, or shouted assent. We are well past insane.
    I’m with the kulturcritic. There’s no becoming sane if one doesn’t get at one’s origins, one’s core.
    http://www.offthegridmpls.blogspot.com

  32. Dirk June 18, 2012 at 10:29 am #

    “The net effect of all this is that advanced societies all over the planet have entered a comprehensive compressive contraction of activity”
    CCC: Puts a finer point on what is happening; I like it better than ‘compressive deflationary contraction’.
    Jim, you mentioned ‘in the coming decade’ during this weeks blog and I’ve read others here who seem to think this process will go on for ‘a long time’, as one post read. I don’t think so. This is not going to be a linear, smooth, long slide of a collapse. We are all used to ‘exponential increase’; well, get used to exponential decay. Regardless of how badly we may want to believe that we can contunue to bundle debt and call it capital, it cannot and will not work until we figure something else out. Because work requires energy and there is none in debt. In fact debt is an enrgy sink, if you like. Biological muscle systems, for example, can run for a short time on ‘oxygen debt’ and all seems good until the lactic acid builds up and poisons those same cells. This entire thin veil of ‘new money’ designed to make everybody appear and feel rich will simply vaporize around us, whether we want it to or not; whether we believe it will or not, and it will happen *poof* overnight, leaving the Bernanke banker ‘economists’ scratching their collective chrome dome heads, wondering how this could have happened with the printing presses running full speed ahead. It is very simple; there is a finite supply of real wealth and cheap energy in the world and unless we can come up with a spare planet this year, this planet is about to cast us off like the changing of the worlds.

  33. Kyooshtik June 18, 2012 at 10:35 am #

    This is a follow-up to Eluthero at 6-something this morning on last week’s thread.
    E replied to several things I said to him regarding his ongoing battle with Asoka. He began as follows:
    It’s “anyone’s posts”, not “any one’s posts”.
    My response: Try doing a spell check on that sentence and see what happens.
    E also missed the entire point of my original post even while simultaneously claiming that I missed the entire point of his post.
    First of all let me make clear that we (E and I) are in total agreement that Asoka is a horses’ ass for the many reasons enumerated by E – disingenuousness, etc – but my point is there is no sense saying that you scroll past 99.9% of Asoka’s posts when that is patently untrue. And stop complaining about other CFNers giving so much attention to Asoka’s posts when you, in fact, do that very thing. There is almost nothing else you write about other than Asoka’s posts.
    Oh, believe me, I understand completely your desire to refute the asinine Asoka but you only make yourself appear foolish by claiming you scroll past his posts.

  34. Prelapsarian Press June 18, 2012 at 10:36 am #

    Almost on a weekly basis now JHK gets instructed by readers about the fractional reserve system and the way money has perversely been defined by interested parties (i.e., bankers and their lackeys)as something that is created only with attached interest, but it doesn’t seem to be getting through.
    He says there “is not enough money to go around.” Well then, have our elected representative produce some more, as the Constitution charges them with doing. We’ve got all kinds of work that needs doing, and many millions of people either unemployed or underemployed who want work to do, but it all can’t go forward for lack of something called money. Well, put some more money into the economy then.
    But he also says that “capital can only be formed under conditions where interest can be paid.” Why is that? Because we’ve been conned into thinking that’s the only way capital can be formed. Government could inject billions in interest-free loans. Instead, we funnel it through the banksters so they can get their cut. Just like health care dollars have to be funneled through the insurance companies, a similarly well-funded lobby, so they can skim off their enormous share.
    The current unworkable scheme of finance is grist for JHK’s contractionary mill, so maybe he doesn’t want to see the economy through another lens. Rooting, as it were, for the long emergency.

  35. Desertrat June 18, 2012 at 10:42 am #

    And yet…
    Here we are at a time of incredible breakthroughs in medical technology: Anti-aging, cancer cures, stem-cell and nano-technology.
    Manufacturing via “copy machines”.
    One-percenters are successfully going into space–and returning.
    The new tech in oil and gas production is moving Hubbert’s Pimple’s peak off to the right, for at least several more years.
    But, yeah, the interest must be paid. We seem to have two world systems in play: One, government and investment banks, working diligently to seek failure. The other, the private sector’s entrepreneurial capitalists, “doing their own thing” in the usual innovative fashion, in the sense of the “invisible hand” of the marketplace.

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  36. MDG June 18, 2012 at 10:45 am #

    James, somebody else who gets finance, please help me out here:
    All those loans and interest that need to be repaid, particulary by nations — what if the debtors just say no? What if they tell their creditors to take a hike. What happens then?

  37. PatTheExpat June 18, 2012 at 10:48 am #

    As much as we’d all love to see the proletariat rise up in the streets, it just ain’t gonna happen, Jim. Half of ’em are so scared out’ta their wits they’re gonna follow whatever talking head the GOP puts in front of them, as long as he’s for cutting taxes. In a politically disenfranchised world only the illusion of having control over the public sector – cutting deficits, laying off some public workers while stripping the rest of their union rights, etc – gives folks any feeling at all that they’re participating. Not only do the ignorati really believe that in the USA anyone can become a member of the 1%, but in the absence of any real participatory power they prefer to pretend like they’re the “shareholders” of the public sector and they are demanding that those boardroom fatcats (elected officials) cut costs, dad gummit!
    If the other half gets uppity tjey will promptly be portrayed as malconted OWSers and the local police forces will move on them with their newly acquired Homeland Security toys to crush any and all uprisings. The other shoe is about to fall; the first being an absurdly over-litigated society where anyone aspiring to become – or stay – middle class is rihtfully scared silly of being arrested and charged. The second shoe will be brute fucking force. IF they have the gonads to march in the street they will just be pummeled by the police.
    This is ality today Jim, and it’s why your prediction for riots at the political conventions will not pan out. Police brutality and primitive lock-ups will work just as well in 2012 as it did in 2008 in NYC.

  38. empirestatebuilding June 18, 2012 at 10:49 am #

    It is just money and we’ll figure out a way to fix the system after it breaks so badly it can not be repaired.
    Aimlow Joe was here
    http://www.aimlow.com

  39. popcine June 18, 2012 at 10:52 am #

    Oh, I get it, it’s a symmetry. All we have known is the mantra of growth. Up ’till now, anyone speaking about economic matters spoke about the paramount importance of it.
    But there is a symmetrical, different world. Of contraction. A whole different world, not only of economic doings, but of all the culture that goes along with money and status.
    Contraction. “But how will such and such achieve our necessary goals of contraction?” is the kind of thing to be commonly heard in the future. A new dogma for economists, politicians, teachers.
    And nobody really knows what it will be like to live in such times. How fun, how non-boring, I think it will be!
    And not the least of our satisfactions will be to ensure the punishment that finally falls on those criminals who stole the public funds and lied with every breath.

  40. bossier22 June 18, 2012 at 10:52 am #

    I have womdered what the answer to that question would be myself.

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  41. Tancred June 18, 2012 at 10:54 am #

    “…to a complete dissolution of the republic into autonomous and even hostile regions.”
    I argue that our republic has long been a collection of autonomous (at least semi-autonomous) regions. This is evident in the tenacity of certain mindsets and “culture” such as “The South.” I’m always amazed when I hear my Georgia legislators speak with accents that are even harder to fathom than the Beverly Hillbillies. And a local chapter of the KKK recently tried to adopt a highway so they could get their name on roadway signs so tourists would know that some things never change down here. The anti-intellectual mentality remains a suborn aspect of The South; creationist “museums” and screaming ministers (and yes, a good dose of NASCAR). It’s all very embarrassing.
    A lot of these sub-nations were already noted back in the 1980s by Garreau, and are again addressed in a new book (Nations of America/Woodard). Heck, we even have our own Greece in the form of California. I know many intelligent people that maintain that our country is just to damn big to operate with any kind of uniformity. And as long as many Americans maintain the unifying theme of anti-intellectualism, we will never have a whole nation.

  42. Jimmy Drinkwater June 18, 2012 at 11:01 am #

    Now I’ve got images in my head of hot potatoes playing musical chairs, JHK. One heck of a good encapsulation of the moment, regardless. Puts a twist on being between a rock and a hard place, just a rock to sit on or a hard chair with a setting at the world table. At least Greece still has the climate, goats, olives and figs.
    Get a bicycle.
    http://alttransbikes.blogspot.com/

  43. Hugh Culliton June 18, 2012 at 11:01 am #

    Very interesting. My question & concern is this: when do things go nuclear? There is so much potential for a regional nuke fight that it ain’t even funny. As economies contract, as the water dries up in India and Pakistan, and Israel gets touchy about the potential of Iranian nukes (the Sampson Option) WTF can we do? I’m open to suggestions.

  44. jerry June 18, 2012 at 11:04 am #

    Yes Jim, economies are built on debt and the carry forward interest payment plan; but now, with a GOP drooling plan for heavy austerity, their desire is to make sure that the interest payments are paid by people with tight household budgets as they spend on their credit cards and paying the heavy interest rates just to keep their lives above water.
    The GOP and many Democrats want the burden to be carried by the workers of the nation and not by the 1%ters who have benefitted greatly by their lending system and development scam.
    The rich corporatists, such as Koch bros, want to run the nation as they see fit, and they are trying very hard with Citizen’s United at their backs.
    The Fat, Sloppy, and Stupid American, as we are the fattest nation in the world, are filled with their drugs of choice and are too apathetic to carry the pitchforks to the corporate offices in mobs of thousands. The human apes are not angry enough and will never be angry enough.
    Only the youth and the 99percenters with their Occupy Movements can stir the pot with mobs of angry people.
    The Elite are doing everything they can to keep Greece afloat and prevent the Domino Effect because they want their interest payments each month paid in full. If they fail, and Greece falls hard, only at that point will the inertia begin to stir up the Occupiers and the mobs, and the EU begins to pull apart. This process might just cause a major protest in the US, as well.
    http://eye-on-washington.blogspot.com

  45. army June 18, 2012 at 11:08 am #

    So where is the National Rifle Association in this mess? I watch the corn pone Nazis haul cases of ammo out of local gun shows along with AR-15’s and Glocks. It’s all in the name of Obama is going to take our guns.
    I have yet to see an NRA member or their million dollar per year administrators condemd any of our politicians both Republican or Democrat.
    We live in a world of real pussies.
    Maybe owning cases of ammo and a 45 makes their member more attractive to Glenn Beck.
    I’ve had it with the sorry ass people in this Country. One of these days the lights won’t come on……….then our tatto wearing lard asses will come alive.

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  46. VJ June 18, 2012 at 11:09 am #

    “Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.” ~ John Adams
    “You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality.” ~ Ayn Rand

  47. cooldog June 18, 2012 at 11:13 am #

    JHK continually shows a deep misunderstanding of what money is and the laws that govern its use or misuse. Money is not like sweet crude oil, nor is compound interest a law of nature. No wonder he hates Paul Krugman.

  48. Donny-Don June 18, 2012 at 11:18 am #

    Sorry, JHK, but you lost me at ‘cheap and abundant energy supplies done and gone’.
    Natural gas is trading at the ridiculously low price of $2.52/mbtu today — close to the lowest it’s been in a decade. Crude oil at about $83/bbl, about what it was in late 2007.
    Will these low prices last more than a few years? No. But in the meantime, the US is awash in relatively cheap energy, a situation that doesn’t suggest that we’re all ‘flat broke’. Yet.
    I’ve made good money on my investments over the last five years by consistently ignoring JHK’s predictable ‘the world will end a week from Friday’ forecasts. I intend to keep doing so.
    NOTE: I don’t disagree with JHK’s general long-term prognoses. But his weekly apocalyptic forecasts make him look like a lunatic.

  49. Kyooshtik June 18, 2012 at 11:34 am #

    Getch’er bollards here; red hot bollards; bollards here…
    ===========
    Before reading Jim’s essay and before looking up the bolded word above I would have guessed that a bollard was a piece of dung from a large grazing animal. It just has that sound to it. I can imagine a buffalo bollard or a moose bollard but not a cat bollard.

  50. J Lee June 18, 2012 at 11:34 am #

    And wouldn’t you all trade your $USD for the new German Mark. Ya Wohl! And you thought the war was over. Along the way you just won a few battles but the war is not over! And if you don’t agree then keep your $USD. See how good you feel in a few years. S.H.

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  51. Steve M. June 18, 2012 at 11:50 am #

    Summer’s here and the time is right for fighting in the street, boys.

  52. Cavepainter June 18, 2012 at 11:50 am #

    Uh,… Jim, when are you going to step up and address America’s false notion that it can absorb unlimited numbers of the globe’s distressed population, but especially from Third World nations clinging to Bronze Age perceptions of reality? You know, the old notion of America’s exceptionalism – that quaint belief that we are exempt from “carrying capacity” limitations.

  53. anti soak June 18, 2012 at 11:55 am #

    ‘the corn pone Nazis’
    Ill trust them over BHO, Holder, Martin Luther King, Rodney King, Pelosi etc, any day!

  54. Dan_White June 18, 2012 at 11:55 am #

    When the SHTF, that old crotchety guy down the block with the ammo and the guns is going to suddenly become your best friend—-IF—you have treated him with a modicum of respect.
    Make friends locally and make connections now before TSHTF.

  55. cbwim June 18, 2012 at 11:57 am #

    “somebody has to end up stuck with a problem”
    That pretty much sums up the problem with the Nuclear Power Industry. One of the dangers of a multi-decadal contraction is that we will be less able to deal with the huge problem of nuclear waste in the future compared with the present.
    The utilities already know this. They had some money for decommissioning etc. but probably gambled and lost it in the crash of 2008. So now they are trying to extend the lives of these 40 year old reactors for another 20 years because its cheaper and they can then kick this can down the road, when they will have saved enough money by then. Or hopefully by then, it will be someone else’s problem.
    In the meantime they can tell us that this will help prevent global warming. Like their other promises of power too cheap to meter and we will have a solution for nuclear waste – I am not buying it. We’ll be in worse shape in 2032, the utilities won’t have any place to dump their wastes, and we might have a few more Fukushimas in the meantime. Most likely Indian Point or San Onofre. Fortunately, the areas around these nuke plants out to 50 miles are sparsely populated. For instance, the population within 50 miles of San Onofre is a mere 7 million. So only a few people will have to evacuate and relocate…..
    Its my daughter’s generation and probably my grandkids generation who will be stuck with this legacy.
    On the other hand, yesterday I celebrated Father’s Day by doing a feel good and useful project that I’ve wanted to do for years. Building a simple PVC greenhouse frame. We don’t need much area for 7 tomato and some 60 pepper plants. So it took 16 ten foot lengths of 1/2″ PVC, 2 T connectors and 5 X connectors, and 14 pieces of rebar cut into 4′ lengths. I had the rebar laying around and all the other materials were only about $40 at Home Depot. The resulting greenhouse is about 150 square feet. The frame will probably last a decade or more. For the plastic covering I have some left over mylar from when I built my house in the 90s, that is still in good shape. So hopefully we’ll have tomatoes and a good crop of peppers. Tomatoes are hard to grow well this close to Seattle. We seem to be getting the short end of the stick as far as global warming is concerned. Cooler and wetter summers. This might also simply be from La Nina but this is consistent with what the climate scientists are predicting. In the fall I will fill the greenhouse with winter greens.

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  56. Kyooshtik June 18, 2012 at 11:58 am #

    I have womdered what the answer to that question would be
    =============
    Two roads diverged in a yellow wood
    And I womdered down the one less traveled by…
    …sounds Frostian don’t it?

  57. Vlad Krandz June 18, 2012 at 12:20 pm #

    America was created by people with guns – why don’t you read some real History and not just more Globo Propaganda?
    The right for the Common Man to bear Arms is precious and hated by Dictators. It is hard won and easily lost by those who don’t value it.
    The Militia was not and is not the National Guard. It was ordinary men with guns who volunteered to fight to create the Nation.

  58. bossier22 June 18, 2012 at 12:25 pm #

    At the risk of sounding anti intellectual, shouldn’t the intellectual elite shoulder some of the blame for the shape the country is in. Afterall the policies they have advocated have shoved the country the direction they wanted to go since World War 2.
    I am with you on the possibility of geographic break up of the U.S.

  59. Vlad Krandz June 18, 2012 at 12:27 pm #

    Why is bigger always better? Why should America stay together if everyone disagrees about everything? And if all the different minority groups, who have been encouraged to hate America and the White Majority, actually do hate them? As Al Gore mistranslated E Pluribus Unim, Out of One Many, so it shall go.
    Empires are intrinsically unstable. If we wanted longevity, we would have been content to grow more slowly and not take in non Western Aliens who will never fit in.
    And furthermore, if you think Blacks are so great, and if they (and you) think Whites are so bad, why shouldn’t they get their own State in the deep South? I think we both know what the result would be. Whites ARE America and should have been honored. Any group who dishonors us is automatically disqualified to join us.

  60. Vlad Krandz June 18, 2012 at 12:29 pm #

    Unum not Unim.

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  61. Kyooshtik June 18, 2012 at 12:30 pm #

    Sometimes kicking the can down the road works. It worked today.
    =============
    Sorry CCM, I must disagree. What you think you see is just an illusion. I have never believed in procrastination (kicking the can). I ALWAYS do the most unpleasant task first. I never leave the kitchen with a dirty dish in the sink.

  62. third_martini_banter June 18, 2012 at 12:33 pm #

    I think you have it right ExPat. I for one despise the current political idiocy, but I have zero desire to immerse myself in a sea of unarmed humanity, and wait for some provacateur in my midst to commit some stupid act that justifies the Authorities flipping the switch on the Machine That Maintains Order, and brutalizing me or, worse, my loved ones.
    Did any good come from those kids getting pepper-sprayed in the face at UC Davis last year? Not that I’m aware of.

  63. 6qcmujzni1q0 June 18, 2012 at 12:36 pm #

    ??“????”???“???????”???????????????????????????????????????

    ??2009?8?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

    ??2010?10????????????????????????????????(?????)????????3???????110??140??????????2????????????????????????????

    ??2011?11?30???????????2011?12?1????????????????3?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

    ??2012?2?28??????????????????????????2012????????????????????????????????????????????

    ??2012?3?28??????????2012????????????????2012?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

    ??2012?5?7?????????????????????6?1???????????????

    ????????

    ????????

  64. 6qcmujzni1q0 June 18, 2012 at 12:37 pm #

    ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

    ????????

  65. newworld June 18, 2012 at 12:48 pm #

    How true Vlad. Chicago was yet another bloodbath this weekend, the glorius people of color outdid themselves again, and yet the white anti-whites are worried about some Cletus defending his property and family in case some Democratic voters start acting Democratic with them.

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  66. Vlad Krandz June 18, 2012 at 12:53 pm #

    I hadn’t heard. It’s almost like our Media isn’t our’s. Almost like it’s owned and operated by an alien group or something.

  67. Vlad Krandz June 18, 2012 at 12:57 pm #

    Yeah the longer you wait the tougher the scum is to clean off. Likwise in Society. But he is right that it can work for individuals that form the basis of our Investing Class. Keep herding the sheep in to failing companies as you prepare to sell at the right time. That kind of can kicking has a metalic ring to it that sounds like money.

  68. anti soak June 18, 2012 at 1:12 pm #

    Jim has mentioned this ‘situation’ briefly here and in TLE.
    Someone mentioned Krugman, I wanted to ‘cut-paste’ some info on ‘Rong Way Paul’ but blog would not take it………..
    “Enjoy dissecting Krugman? Check in at economist William Anderson’s http://krugman-in-wonderland.b… Krugman in Wonderland.
    Krugman actually believes that the act of printing “money” creates or leads to the creation of wealth. And for those not given to dispute, the fact that he is a Nobel Prize winning economist, from Princeton”
    also at …Voxday
    ……………………………………..

  69. Vlad Krandz June 18, 2012 at 1:15 pm #

    Rothschild lackeys flee Iceland. Triumph for the People in the world’s oldest Democracy. It seems only Northern Europeans have the will to be Free -and then only with difficulty. Since these genes no long predominate in America, the prognosis here is poor.
    http://www.wvwnews.net/story.php?id=11113

  70. MDG June 18, 2012 at 1:25 pm #

    Vlad,
    I agree with you that the United States is too big and should be broken up into more homogenous zones.
    Progressive zones on the coasts.
    Regressive zones in the south and west.
    And you and your fellow neo-nazis can have Idaho.

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  71. JulettaofOhio June 18, 2012 at 1:30 pm #

    Your definition of the “World” (as we think of it) was priceless and so accurate, but I was sorry to see the article devolve into another mention of “cornpone Nazi”. What exactly do you have against the South?
    Having wondered about this for several years, I finally decided that it’s a combination of liberal snark and the fact that humans inherently prefer their own kind. Libs can’t admit, under any circumstances, that they don’t like blacks, so they verbalize this by the process of transference, whereas what they don’t like about blacks is twisted into what they don’t like about whites. You could never, EVER, make fun of a big-butted, fat, slanternly black woman, but there’s nothing to stop you from making fun of a white, female “Walmartian”. You can disapprove of a white, fourth-generation, welfare family, but never of an identical black welfare family, because it’s never, NEVER, their fault they’ve been on welfare that long. Prejudice, you know. A black mob is always composed of thugs, but if the thugs are black, they have a “grievance” and the looting and burning becomes understandable, not a symptom of cornponeness. To me, this shows you have a deep-seated sense of responsibility and decency, but you’re so hamstrung by your liberalism that you are forced to demonize the group that you’re permitted to hate.
    I’d like to suggest “Southern Ladies and Gentlemen” by Florence King. If you loved Joe Bageant, you’ll be delighted with Florence King. She also explains the difference between the real “Good Ole Boy” and white trash. (You’re still permitted to dislike the latter.) Still like your work, but am tired of being insulted.

  72. david June 18, 2012 at 1:37 pm #

    First I met a Hispanic woman who was offended by JHK because of his rant about the brown hungry mobs charging north across the border.
    Then I heard a c-realm podcast in which two black men were offended by Jim’s rant about black people not assimilating appropriately.
    And now I have to read Jim rant about the “gender confused”, his euphemism for the gays.
    Gosh, Jim, if only the straight white people were in charge, what a wonderful world…oh, wait.

  73. systemyou June 18, 2012 at 1:38 pm #

    Does this mean California, Oregon, and Washington can form our own country now? We’ve been waiting for this!

  74. Vlad Kramps June 18, 2012 at 1:45 pm #

    I overheard a conversation at the supermarket check out between the cashier and the bagger. The bagger was talking about how his updated resume could help him land a better job with some company. He asked the cashier (both guys were in their early to mid 20s I’d guess), “What was your major?” To which the cashier replied, “Marketing.” I thought to myself how ironic. You majored in marketing and now you’re working in a supermarket.

  75. Vlad Kramps June 18, 2012 at 1:49 pm #

    I don’t know why people still major in things like marketing. I think engineering would be more practical, but someone told me that the majority of the engineering jobs go to Indians who are able to work for less money (no big college debt). College is a waste of time and money for most people. You don’t need a degree in marketing to work in a supermarket. And most people pay with EBT cards, debit or credit cards, so in most cases you don’t even have to know how to make change.

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  76. Vlad Kramps June 18, 2012 at 1:59 pm #

    Jim’s a Zionist who thinks that only Jewish people will ever prosper. He should be very happy that our rulers are handsomely paid off by the Israeli government. That’s why elections here don’t matter. Whoever you vote for will follow the dictates of their Israeli masters.
    One thing that scares Jewish people more than anything are the born-again, right wing Christians who populate the South. Once they get pissed off enough, they’ll start torching Jewish homes, calling them “Christ killers” and such. As was mentioned on this blog and others, these same born-again Christians carried a pig’s head on a stick and invaded an Islamist festival, screaming, “Muhammad is a terrorist!” “You ragheads are going to burn in hell!” They did this for quite a while before they left to go after a gay pride march. Think this happened in Dearborn, MI.

  77. Tancred June 18, 2012 at 2:01 pm #

    I remember the days of those metal price stamps you had to load up with ink, the CHA-CHING! cash registers, paper bags, and quarts (rather than litres) of soda in glass bottles. The idea of buying a jug of water, let alone a 12 oz bottle, was seen as crazy. Whose gonna spend money for water when you can get it out of the faucet for free? Well, I was sure wrong. That’s marketing for you.
    At least I’m getting a “full core” workout while I write this with my super ab electro stimulator…I’ll be ripped by this evening!!

  78. San Jose Mom 51 June 18, 2012 at 2:13 pm #

    I’m not at all surprised about the checker having a marketing degree. I’m guessing that 1/3 of the checkers where I grocery shop have college degrees. They are biding their time to become store managers. Checkers have a primo jobs in terms of health and retirement benefits in California, because they are part of a union.
    At my son’s college last year, the guy living in and supervising the dorms had an esoteric PhD from Harvard. The students hated him–he had no tolerance for loud (or even not-so-loud) music being played and he quit after about four months.

  79. anti soak June 18, 2012 at 2:27 pm #

    Meanwhile here in L.A., theres a company called ECFMG [?] its in ElSegundo and employes 200
    ‘Doctor Testers’, who test new Indian MDs, they
    ‘fly here by the planeload and all pass the test to be US MDs’.
    Oddly I had 2 neighbors who worked there, the 2 employees were not friends nor did they live together.
    Last time I went to a talk on medical careers, the audience was mostly Asians.
    Architects that I see here [big office here in SM] are mostly Asians or foreign born whites, NO BLACKS.

  80. sevenmmm June 18, 2012 at 2:30 pm #

    Events are moving along quickle and a decade is a long time.

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  81. Vlad Kramps June 18, 2012 at 2:47 pm #

    Speaking of immigration, you might be interested in how Israel deals with unwanted African immigrants. Got this from another blog site.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/17/south-sudanese-israel-migrants_n_1603682.html?utm_hp_ref=world

  82. Vlad Krandz June 18, 2012 at 2:48 pm #

    The Vagina Monologues is Lesbian Porn and should not be performed or read on Goverment Property.

  83. Vlad Krandz June 18, 2012 at 2:55 pm #

    Thank you for your open mindedness. There are more of us than you think – read the Comments on Yahoo etc. Nazi is a meaningless word but White Nationalist will do.
    The Founding Fathers were White Nationalists who created America for “themselves and their progeny”. Even Lincoln was – he wanted to send the Blacks back to Africa.

  84. turkle June 18, 2012 at 3:08 pm #

    Could you stop posting here, for say, a few hours there VK? The astroturfing is getting old, mighty old. Get your own blog please.

  85. Vlad Kramps June 18, 2012 at 3:19 pm #

    Wow! California really is the land of milk and honey. The state I live in is a “Right to Work” state, meaning they can fire your ass anytime they please. No unions, and certainly no retirement for supermarket cashiers. Mostly they hire on a part-time basis so as to avoid having to pay for heatlh care. No wonder your state is so popular with the immigrants. Heck, I just might move there myself. Retirement AND benefits! Gotta love California! Plus they have medical marijuna! Ouch! I fell down and hurt my head. I’m a packin! See ya’ll soon!!

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  86. Vlad Krandz June 18, 2012 at 3:26 pm #

    I stand with the proud Israeli people in their struggle against the illegal Black immigrants. As they have said, “Israel belongs to the White Man”. Imagine if anyone else but a Jew said that? Yet not one word of criticism from the MSM. Does anyone still not believe the Jews own the Media?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TvSiYu8z2M&feature=youtu.be

  87. Vlad Krandz June 18, 2012 at 3:28 pm #

    Translation: I can’t refute the logic of what you said. I just don’t like it. I hate reality.
    Po lil Turk!

  88. Vlad Krandz June 18, 2012 at 3:31 pm #

    Some of these companies get the spring water right out of the tap. What a mark up! It’s not a lie – each moleculte probably came out of a spring at some point even if it was thousands of years ago.

  89. rlmrdl June 18, 2012 at 3:31 pm #

    And THAT is the nub of the matter.
    The mad dithyramb of political theatre we are being treated to is to hide as long as possible the fact that many, many people are just going to die in the near future and there will be nothing anyone can do to stop it.
    I am now so cynical about it that I check the markets first thing every day to see whether I have another day to refine and tune the prep and build something new on my 10 acres. But EVERYTHING I do is predicated on imminent failure on a grand scale.
    BTW, I’ve been watching Tales from the Green Valley, a historical documentary TV series.
    It recreates everyday life on a small farm in Wales in the 1620s, using authentic replica equipment and clothing, original recipes and reconstructed building techniques. It looks a LOT like the future I’m expecting. But then there are bits of it that I think, nah, we wont even have THAT.

  90. Kyooshtik June 18, 2012 at 3:50 pm #

    A 39 year old black actor named Idris Elba plays Janek, Captain of the spaceship Prometheus in the movie of the same name.
    The casting is interesting. It’s 2093 and Janek (still) has a black accent (much to my chagrin) no different than if it was 2012, and a hint of black attitude to boot. In one scene he makes a play for Charlize Therone’s (sp?) character’s panties. His clothing/uniform have little in the way of power ornamentation and he plays the role as though, as blacks seemingly have long suspected, being a spaceship captain (or heading up a Fortune 500 Company) isn’t all that difficult, you don’t need to be white tight-ass smart ’cause, truth be known, it’s maybe a notch or two more difficult than driving a Trailways Bus.
    If Vlad sees this flick I’ll look forward to his assessment.

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  91. Zed Leppt In June 18, 2012 at 3:51 pm #

    Ever wonder if there is a subtext to the current craze for all things zombie-related in popular culture today? Even the CDC recently issued a tongue-in-cheek set of guidelines for zombie apocolypse preparedness. In these fictional scenarios the people we once regarded as friends, family, and fellow citizens become terrifing carriers of an an infectious virus which, if it infects us, will force into the ranks of the mindless shambling mass of spoiled humanity. While an avian flu pandemic or some such mass contagion might serve as a analog for this horrifying outbreak, I think that the current financial woes of the world point to a more realistic metaphorical plague: poverty. Losing your job, savings, house, and possessions taints you with that highly perceptible aura of failure, as if, like Pigpen in the Peanuts cartoon stip, an offensive cloud of noxious vapors were surrounding you, prompting a reflexive sense of repulsion from your former peers. “Sorry Joe, you’re not one us anymore. Go away, we don’t wanna get what you got.”
    Prepping for ravenous hordes of flesh-eaters might as well be stated realistically as “get ready for hordes of disenfranchised citizens driven to despartes acts in order to survive – namely the “unfed” grabbing whatever they can from the “overfed”.
    Read up on some of the new super-secure gated communities springing up in the Washington DC suburbs to house the employees of the new police-state agencies that are, themselves, like a plague upon civil society. These people won’t be holed up in isolated farm houses when the revolting start revolting, they’ll have a comfortable retreat with a heavily armed security force to repell the hungry mobs moaning “Grains! Corn, rice, wheat, whatever you got, graaaaaaains!”.

  92. Drew Keeling June 18, 2012 at 4:19 pm #

    No one really knows how well the world can cope with contraction. It has been a long time since it occurred on a large and long term scale, and the distant memories thereof are not pleasant. But, acres of forest and farmland, reservoirs of fresh water, the know-how to generate power from running water, and many other such things, do not automatically vanish when the currency is wiped out or people’s paper wealth is shredded. Contraction may become a worldwide phenomenon, in other words, but not all parts of the world would be equally affected.

  93. Zed Leppt In June 18, 2012 at 4:24 pm #

    You might also be interested in the BBC series Victorian Farm in which a team live on a farm in England for a year using only technology that was available in 1885. BBC followed up the series with Edwardian Farm – same premise using early 20th century tools. In the fall harvest episode the local village school children are recruited en masse to help bring in the potato harvest – and not a squawcking social worker in sight! Delightful.

  94. Grouchy Old Girl June 18, 2012 at 4:25 pm #

    North Carolina sounds like a humdinger of a place where real events are more incredible than any dumb script that could be dreamed up. Guns in bars? Incredible.
    Outlawing rising water levels takes it a step further. I can just see a row of riot police standing at the ocean shore, guns in one hand, while holding up the other one yelling STOP OR WE’LL SHOOT. If there isn’t a saying about how reality can’t be wished away, there should be.
    You Americans make me laugh, but nervously and with foreboding.

  95. turkle June 18, 2012 at 4:30 pm #

    Uh, no. I’m just getting sick of this one note samba of VK all the time. I’d like to hear more from others on different topics. But between your posts and people responding to them, it is probably half the comments on here.

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  96. BeantownBill June 18, 2012 at 4:35 pm #

    A saw the movie last week in Florida.
    Idris Elba is a BRITISH actor, who in real life has a British accent. He’s an excellent actor who starred in HBO’s “the Wire” for a few years. The Wire was an exceptionally well-done series about life in Baltimore. It might have been the series of the decade.
    I liked Prometheus. It is a prequel to Ridley Scott’s movie series “Alien”. If you never saw Alien then you wouldn’t understand the meaning of Prometheus’ ending. Charlize Theron sure looked hot!

  97. turkle June 18, 2012 at 4:39 pm #

    I look at it more like contraction will cope with you!

  98. turkle June 18, 2012 at 4:40 pm #

    What is a “black accent”? I didn’t realize that sounds had a color.

  99. Grouchy Old Girl June 18, 2012 at 4:41 pm #

    Pat, what you say makes sense. People are too desperate to hang on to what they still have to risk any kind of resistance, even if it’s just going to a rally.
    In Toronto police arrested over a thousand people at the G-20 meeting after using a technique called “kettling” where they’re herded together like farm animals, then held them overnight in horrible third world conditions. Many were never even charged and many charges were eventually dropped that were laid.
    For now, people are too scared. How they’ll feel when the grocery stores are bare is another scenario. That’s if they even have the money to buy some food.

  100. turkle June 18, 2012 at 4:44 pm #

    The way our money system works is at the heart of our cultural disconnect with earthly realities. In other words, more money can always be conjured up out of nowhere, with a few keyboard strokes. Yet there are a finite amount of resources on this planet. So what is the inevitable consequence of abstract financial infinity meeting the inherently finite nature of biology and geology? It is that old bugaboo inflation, where the more money injected into the system, the less each quantum is worth.
    Then there is the fact that when money is created, there is a corresponding amount of debt born. For some reason, the government actually has to borrow its money from the Federal Reserve and then pay it back at interest. Yet, the Fed doesn’t actually have this money. It simply credits the government’s checking account and receives, in return, bonds. So no wonder nearly every single government in the world is in debt. How could it be otherwise?

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  101. BeantownBill June 18, 2012 at 4:57 pm #

    Your post is interesting because I read an article on-line (I’m almost embarassed to say it was on CNN.com) about the summer and fall TV program schedules. The article noted that end-of-the-world tv series are getting to be in vogue. A zombie tv series was extremely popular this year; last night was the season premier of “Falling Skies”, wherein invading aliens have wiped out most of humanity, with some survivors fighting a guerilla warfare action against the invaders; and this fall, a new series, “Revolution”, is premiering about survivors of some EMP action, 15 years after the event.
    What really interested me was the statement of the producer of one of the shows. He said that the reason for the popularity of such programs is a growing recognition in the consciousness of the public that our society is in terrible condition and may not survive.

  102. vg578454 June 18, 2012 at 4:59 pm #

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  103. vg578454 June 18, 2012 at 5:00 pm #

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  104. BeantownBill June 18, 2012 at 5:00 pm #

    I think you are responding to Q’s post. I’ve never seen a black accent either.

  105. vg578454 June 18, 2012 at 5:01 pm #

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    Support this blog via Patreon or Substack
  106. vg578454 June 18, 2012 at 5:02 pm #

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    ? ? ? ? ? ? ??2011 ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ??

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    ?4 ? ? ? ? ? 25 ? ?/ ? ? ? ? 4200 ? / ? ?
    ?5 ? ? ? ? 25 ? ? / ? 2800 ?/ ? ????????
    ?6 ? ? ? 25 ? ?/ ? ? ? 700 ? /? ????
    ?7 ? ? ? ? ? ? 160kg/ ? ? ? 100 ?/ ? ????
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  107. vg578454 June 18, 2012 at 5:02 pm #

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    ? ? ? ? ? ?? ? ? ? ? ?? ? ? ? ?!
    ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ??tel:l36~?43o~8o7?
    ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??
    ? ? ? ? ? ?, [? ? ? ?] ?? ? ? ?????? ? ? ? ? ? ?
    [? ? ?]?? ??380/?? [? ? ?]?? ??380/??
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    ?………………………………………………………………………………..?
    ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? ?????? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ??
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    ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? ?? ? ? ? ?

    ?1 ? ? ? ? ? 25 ? ?/ ? 2000 ? / ? ?????
    ?2?? ? ? ? (? ? ? ?) 25kg/ ? ? ? 1000 ? / ? ?
    ?3 ? ? ? ? 25kg/ ? ? ? 180 ? / ? ?
    ?4 ? ? ? ? ? 25 ? ?/ ? ? ? ? 4200 ? / ? ?
    ?5 ? ? ? ? 25 ? ? / ? 2800 ?/ ? ????????
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    ?7 ? ? ? ? ? ? 160kg/ ? ? ? 100 ?/ ? ????
    ?8 ? ? ? 25kg / ? ? ? 700 ? / ? ????
    ?9 ? ? ? ? ??? ? ?? 5? ?/??25? ?/ ? ? ? 4600 ?/ ? ??
    ?10 ? ? ? 5 ? ? / ? 25kg/ ? ? ? 70000?/? ?
    ?11 ? ? ? 1kg/ ? ? ? 12000 ?/ ? ????
    ?12 ? ? ? 25kg/ ? ? ? 4800 ?/ ? ????????
    ?13 ? ? ? ? ? 5??/? 25kg/ ? 7800 ?/ ? ????
    ?14 ? ? ? ? ? 25kg/ ? 2800/ ? ??????????
    ?15 ? ? ? ? ? 20kg/ ? 100kg/ ? 500 ?/? ????
    ?16 ? ? ? 25kg/ ? 800 ?/ ? ????????????
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    ?18 ? ? ? ? 25kg/ ? 250 ? / ? ?

    ??????? ????? ????????? ????????????.

    ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
    ? ? ? ?? ? ? ? ? l36~?43o~8o7?

  108. BeantownBill June 18, 2012 at 5:06 pm #

    I agree with you. Remember that”freedom’s just another word for nothing left to lose”.

  109. BeantownBill June 18, 2012 at 5:08 pm #

    “You Americans make me laugh, but nervously and with foreboding.”
    Just think how I feel. I live there.

  110. Zed Leppt In June 18, 2012 at 5:09 pm #

    Someone metioned up-thread that Jim should have an Eyesore-of the-Week. Here’s a link to a story on a Toronto area condo tower development that has been nick-named the “Marilyn Monroe Towers”. The name comes from the femine outline of the building but may as well refer to a showy glamour queen who dies an early, self-inflicted death.
    The Chicago-based Council on Tall Buildings and Urban Habitat awaded this a “Best Tall Buildings in the Americas” prize, for what ever that’s worth.
    http://www.thestar.com/news/article/1211657–marilyn-monroe-towers-in-mississauga-among-world-s-best-new-skyscrapers
    I hope the elevator shafts follow the spiraling contours of the structure, what a fun ride that would be when centifigul forces kick in decending from the 50th floor.

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  111. Zed Leppt In June 18, 2012 at 5:15 pm #

    centrifigal

  112. anti soak June 18, 2012 at 5:24 pm #

    ‘I don’t know why people still major in things like marketing.’
    Because we couldnt do Physics and Calculus.
    The ‘Anti Black’ Uprising in Israel is old news..
    I had posted a week or 2 ago, ‘whats good for the joos aint good for the goyim’.

  113. Kyooshtik June 18, 2012 at 5:34 pm #

    I think you are responding to Q’s post. I’ve never seen a black accent either.
    ================
    Neither have I but I hear them nearly every day of my life.
    Please Bean and Turk, don’t play stupid with me.

  114. turkle June 18, 2012 at 5:44 pm #

    It’s a movie, genius. And you’re looking for accuracy in dialect?! I haven’t seen it, but I’m assuming they travel half-way across the universe in a day and a half. And yet you take umbrage because one of the actors has a “black accent.” You old fuddy duddy!

  115. turkle June 18, 2012 at 5:48 pm #

    I know that no one on the planet earth is as great, perfect, and all-knowing as the almighty ‘anti soak’. But do you think that you could go, say, one week on here without making some veiled racist or bigoted comment about one group or another? Think of it as a personal challenge. You know, practice having compassion and forgiveness for your inferiors. It might help improve your evidently ragged mental health.

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  116. mow June 18, 2012 at 5:49 pm #

    the world went to hell when george marshall gave away free missouri mules

  117. turkle June 18, 2012 at 5:51 pm #

    I wonder why everyone in medieval times, as depicted in the cinema, has a British accent, even when said movie takes place in, say, France. Is it because there are a lot of good British actors and we don’t want to cramp their style? Actually, why do so many people in sci fi flicks talk like that? If we want to be realistic, I’d think that 100 years in the future, everyone should be speaking Chinese.

  118. anti soak June 18, 2012 at 5:58 pm #

    I got a kick out of this:
    Ronan Farrow,, named Satchel Ronan O’Sullivan Farrow when he was born in 1987, is the sole biological child of Woody and actress Mia Farrow.
    He is currently ‘serving’ as special adviser to the Secretary of State for Global Youth Issues and director of the State Department’s Global Youth Issues office
    [Wow, he is serving!!!]
    Father’s Day might always be a tricky holiday for Woody Allen but this year was particularly awkward.
    Ronan Farrow, the 24-year-old son of Mia Farrow and Woody Allen, let loose yesterday tweeting, “Happy father’s day — or as they call it in my family, happy brother-in-law’s day.”
    …………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….

  119. anti soak June 18, 2012 at 6:00 pm #

    I was replying to VK2s question.
    I had offered no opinion about the uprising, for or against.
    gees are you stoo-pid.
    Idiot, Ill do what I can to ignore you.

  120. xport June 18, 2012 at 6:04 pm #

    Here is a recent article by Marty Kaplan that sums things up pretty well:
    THE END IS NIGH, SERIOUSLY
    In countless cartoons, there’s a guy in a robe and long beard who’s walking around carrying a sign saying The End Is Nigh. The joke is that he’s ridiculous — some loony who takes the Book of Revelation literally. But what if the joke’s on us?
    The June 6 issue of the leading scientific journal Nature contains a paper co-authored by 22 researchers from all over the world. Their disciplines range from zoology, paleontology and geology to fields that are not your father’s Oldsmobile, like ecoinformatics and computational ecology. Getting published in Nature means that independent peer reviewers have vouched for the quality of the authors’ evidence and the rigor of their thinking. We’re talking gold-standard science here.
    What the paper says is that the earth is approaching a global tipping point, “a state shift in Earth’s biosphere.” It may happen in as few as 10 to 15 years; it may even have already happened. It will be irreversible, “a planetary-scale critical transition” whose consequences may include mass extinctions and “drastic changes in species distributions, abundances and diversity.”
    Its consequences could be as catastrophic as an asteroid hitting the Earth. But unlike asteroids, volcanoes, plate tectonics and other suspected culprits in the prior Great Extinctions, the cause of this tipping point is people.
    There are 7 billion of us now; there will be over 9 billion when today’s toddlers start having kids. To support that population, we’ve cleared more than 40 percent of the planet’s surface for agriculture and urban development, and that will hit 50 percent by 2050. Add to that the fossil fuels we’re burning, and the resulting carbon dioxide that we’re pumping into the atmosphere is acidifying the oceans, melting the ice caps, messing with the climate and heading us toward “widespread social unrest, economic instability and the loss of human life.”
    So what do we do with news that bad?
    The right’s response has been denial – a war on truth. Rush Limbaugh calls science, academia, government and the media the “four pillars of deceit,” a Red Queen maneuver that beheads anything incompatible with the Gospel of Rushbo. Sense is nonsense: if that’s your epistemology, there’s no arguing with it. Or, shifting from Lewis Carroll to the Doobie Brothers, “What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.”
    But if you don’t think that Nature is Pravda, if you can’t wear a Science = Stalin button, if you don’t believe that those 22 researchers have an ideological axe to grind, how do you process the news that the end may in fact be nigh?
    There’s another kind of denial, one that’s different from Rush’s de-definition of reason. Some facts are so disturbing that the only way we can handle them is magical thinking. If we don’t dwell on them, they won’t hurt us. If we ignore them, they’ll go away. The proliferation of nuclear weapons is a familiar example. The obesity epidemic is another. We know how scary and intractable these problems are, but we quarantine those thoughts. Defense, Inc. and Food, Inc. spend whatever it takes to market images of security and pleasure to us, and we find them so appealing that we willingly inhabit a cloud cuckoo land that poses no threat to their profits.
    But suppose we put away childish things. Suppose we faced the ecological bad news head on. What if the specter of a global tipping point, an irreversible environmental catastrophe, grabbed our attention as powerfully as the prospect of extinction grips the people of Earth in space invasion movies? We’d do everything we could to stop it, right?
    In the U.S., the scale of action required to prevent such a state shift in our planet’s biosphere can only be attempted by our political system.
    Uh-oh.
    Special interests own Congress. The Supreme Court’s Citizens United decision holding corporations to be people, together with the demise of campaign finance laws, puts plutocrats first. Big media, while raking in billions from political ads, is holding audiences riveted to spectacles instead of holding candidates accountable for lying. If you think a re-elected Barack Obama could get a decent energy policy passed by the next Congress, you haven’t been counting the Koch brothers’ money or listening to Mitch McConnell.
    The consequence of being a citizen who cares about issues like carbon footprints, peak oil and rising temperatures is a feeling of powerlessness. The oligarchs have us by the short hairs. If you aren’t feeling impotent, you haven’t been paying attention.
    Powerlessness hurts — literally. It’s a clinical diagnosis. The Occupy movement was, briefly, a kind of therapy for it. Tracking every online detail about the latest outrage is a recent form of self-medication for it. But as long as informed majorities are rendered helpless by a rigged system, the only thing more demoralizing than knowing how nigh the end may really be is being trapped, powerless, alongside that nutcase in the cartoon.

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  121. turkle June 18, 2012 at 6:06 pm #

    “Gees”
    “Ill”
    “stoo-pid”
    And I’m the idiot? Where’d you learn English, from comments on youtube?

  122. Kyooshtik June 18, 2012 at 6:33 pm #

    The late great David Foster Wallace is (was) considered such an authority on American English and Usage that he was hired to review a new dictionary written by someone else. The review runs 62 pages and is one of the essays contained in a collection of essays published under the title “Consider The Lobster.”
    Here is the blurb concerning that dictionary review:
    “Authority and American Usage” A 62-page review of Bryan A. Garner’s A Dictionary of Modern American Usage. Wallace applies George Orwell’s “Politics and the English Language” to grammar and the conditions of class and power in millennial American communication. In addition to examining such seemingly technical ideas as descriptive linguistics versus prescriptive grammar, Wallace digresses to discuss the legitimacy of Ebonics as opposed to “white male” standard English. (originally published in Harper’s as “Tense Present: Democracy, English and Wars over Usage”)
    If you insist on playing dumb about the existence of what I have termed a “black accent” I recommend you borrow Consider The Lobster from your library and find the section of his dictionary review where he discusses Ebonics vs Standard American English.

  123. Buck Stud June 18, 2012 at 6:39 pm #

    It didn’t take long for this weeks comment thread to become another stale expression of racial consciousness, courtesy of Vlad and his absurdly inane and dull sidekick, anti-soak. Oh well.
    But speaking of JHK,and “mathematical metaphysics” and “technological magic” and the “last refuge of those seeking to evade reality” – what does one do when the 10-15 year lifespan of a hip replacement breaks down and one finds themselves back in the midst of a “World Made By Hand” time warp?
    I have a feeling at that point that “abstraction unto infinity” will be championed for the sake of avoiding a life finished in a wheelchair. In fact, “technology” and the “cornucopian propagandists” and the “wishful thinkers” will somehow find themselves on the payroll of those now posing with their Daniel Boone axes in the here and now.
    Learn to see thru the bullshit; or better yet, enjoy a good belly laugh.

  124. scott June 18, 2012 at 7:17 pm #

    In fact, “technology” and the “cornucopian propagandists” and the “wishful thinkers” will somehow find themselves on the payroll of those now posing with their Daniel Boone axes in the here and now.
    Somebody is wishfully thinking that the status quo of, “abstraction to infinity” can go on forever.
    Wonder if the current ascendency of Africans wishing the curve of ascendency to continue has anything to do with it?

  125. ozone June 18, 2012 at 8:08 pm #

    Good post, Xport.
    You sez:
    “Powerlessness hurts — literally. It’s a clinical diagnosis. The Occupy movement was, briefly, a kind of therapy for it. Tracking every online detail about the latest outrage is a recent form of self-medication for it. But as long as informed majorities are rendered helpless by a rigged system, the only thing more demoralizing than knowing how nigh the end may really be is being trapped, powerless, alongside that nutcase in the cartoon.”
    Yep, I sure hear you there.
    Perhaps this is amniotic fluid in which revenge fantasies are born. (I entertain them myself from time to time, but generally haven’t the inclination to penetrate the psychosis.)
    Leaving problem “management” to the current crop of politicos (plus the ones about to be installed) should make us all a bit queasy. The pandering is so endemic that they wouldn’t know a predicaments’ outcome/consequence if it bit them in the privates. To continually opine as though there is a “solution” to every problem is a disastrous position to cleave to. (Some things just have to be dealt with, not solved.)
    In the upcoming election, I’d be curious to know the total number of eligible voters who actually did so. That would probably shine a light on how much faith the folks have in their system and how near we might be to “the end” (at least of business-as-usual).
    I’m sure you saw this analysis of the religion of progress and authoritarian personalities, but just in case you hadn’t, I recommend it, as it reflects and expands on some of your views.
    http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com/2012/06/parting-of-ways.html
    (I’ve already made my peace with the downward tumble that is “nigh” and will only grapple with true believers when faced with no other choice. I would wish them their utopia in I-dunno/Idaho, but as we’ve witnessed time and time again, they just can’t mind their own fucking business, because thirst for dominance and ease at the cost of others’ labor are their outstanding personality traits.)
    My favorite bumper sticker is: “If you’re not outraged, you’re not paying attention.”
    Anywhich, thanks for the provocative post.

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  126. Buck Stud June 18, 2012 at 8:13 pm #

    Somebody is wishfully thinking that the status quo of, “abstraction to infinity” can go on forever.
    Wonder if the current ascendency of Africans wishing the curve of ascendency to continue has anything to do with it?

    No, “Scott” (and I’ll ignore your asinine and irrelevant comment pertaining to Africans) my point was that when the rubber of medical conditions hits the road of “reality”, the condescending castigation’s of the “cornucopian propagandists” and the “wishful thinkers” will be revealed as the hyperbolic hypocrisy that it is.
    Do you really think the JHK’s of the world will eschew medical technology or deride physicians when it’s their turn to get revision surgery on their original hip replacement? Not a fucking chance.
    No, they will cash in their collected chips from Bozos’ like yourself who thought they were preparing for Armageddon when donating cash or buying Doomsday survival info.
    Multiply that sentiment by the millions of people who are also not willing to forsake their hip revision surgery or revert to a world made by hand of medical treatment and it’s not too difficult to see why “the masses” are not all that eager to “get real”.
    In truth, “the masses” and the JHK’s of the Doomer world both covet the high technology of the current medical world and they both, when push comes to shove – i.e, spending the remainder of life in a wheelchair – cheer hopefully for those practitioners of ‘mathematical metaphysics evading reality’.
    And yet the befuddled “wonder” how and why society continues to “kick the can down the road”.

  127. Vlad Krandz June 18, 2012 at 8:27 pm #

    It’s all in the Will. If we do nothing, everyone will be Black and be speaking a gutter version of Mandarin as they pick thru the Trash. This is the future you are choosing by opposing me.

  128. scott June 18, 2012 at 8:35 pm #

    Yeah, they are going to go back to the same people who fucked up their hip replacements and pay good money to get fucked up again.
    It’s like the old joke where the john says he wants to get fucked and the pimp says slide 20 dollars under the door. The John says I want to get fucked and the pimp says, “what, again?”.

  129. messianicdruid June 18, 2012 at 8:38 pm #

    “Capital can only be formed under conditions where interest can be paid.”
    Wrong. The banksters create money {captial?} out of nothing and loan it {fraud} to presumptuous persons who don’t realize the money has not been created to pay the interest.
    Foreclosure/bankruptcy is the only outcome.
    A contract based on fraud can only be enforced by force or confidence.

  130. turkle June 18, 2012 at 8:45 pm #

    Huh?

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  131. scott June 18, 2012 at 8:46 pm #

    A contract based on fraud can only be enforced by force and confidence.
    FIFY

  132. scott June 18, 2012 at 8:56 pm #

    No, “Scott” (and I’ll ignore your asinine and irrelevant comment pertaining to Africans)
    You should have shut up when you had the chance but no… you had to reveal yourself…

  133. ASPO Article 1037 June 18, 2012 at 9:03 pm #

    Chinese and Russian involvement in the affairs of Israel is not going to end well. India should THINK carefully too.
    Of course others will be adversely affected, but the cosmic rhubarb is a Jewish/Christian/Islamic tangle, and anyone else expecting to profit from direct involvement in the melee shall be disappointed. America could be badly crippled- does anyone in their right mind think this mix-up leaves ANYONE in a viable condition?
    Muslims are hooked, and cannot escape; the folly of following a false prophet is destruction. Brave Imams and believers can see “The Blood Of The Moon” by George grant, plain & simple explanations… Turkey is about to be the catalyst pushing things over the cliff.
    Likewise- Joseph Smith is another problem, for America in particular: See “Under The Prophet In Utah” by Senator Frank J. Cannon. Mitt Romney needs a new set of advisers, and a rethink of the original Hebrew/Greek text scriptures, and the deadly error of denying the divinity of Jesus of Nazareth. Does Romney have the intellectual honesty and courage to recant the rubbish of Mormonism?

  134. turkle June 18, 2012 at 9:27 pm #

    All religion is, by its very nature, intellectual rubbish based on wishful thinking. Religious truth derives from authority and not any kind of experimental validation or even logical argument, which are the criteria that we tend to apply to all statements of reality outside this precious sphere of “spirituality”. There’s no more evidence for the supposed divinity of Christ than there is for the idea that Mohammed wrote down the Koran from God’s dictation.
    Religious types can’t even answer basic questions to resolve the obvious contradictions, such as, why, if he had complete control over it, did God include in his creation things and concepts that he himself is adamantly against?
    If there is a God, he’s some kind of demented sadist, I’d say, which actually isn’t that far from his depiction in the Old Testament.
    But do we really need to have this argument again? That’s another thing about religious nutters. They can’t recognize when they’ve lost the argument, probably because they generally can’t follow a chain of logical deductions in the first place. Otherwise, they wouldn’t believe such clap trap.

  135. ozone June 18, 2012 at 9:37 pm #

    Hmm,
    Speaking of earth-shattering frauds, shenanigans and retribution, some may find this of interest:
    http://theautomaticearth.com/Earth/the-orkin-man-which-side-are-you-on.html
    (Excerpted from the Doomstead Diner discussion of same.)

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  136. Buck Stud June 18, 2012 at 9:39 pm #

    Yeah, they are going to go back to the same people who fucked up their hip replacements and pay good money to get fucked up again.

    No Scott, hip replacement’s typically last 15 years give or take. So a person young enough might need revision surgery. ( Your ignorance is staggering, btw).
    Below is JHK’s hip story:
    http://www.kunstler.com/Mags_hip.html

  137. BeantownBill June 18, 2012 at 9:47 pm #

    Right on, Turk!

  138. turkle June 18, 2012 at 9:55 pm #

    Think I’ve been reading too much Hitchens and Dawkins. Bring it on!

  139. anti soak June 18, 2012 at 9:57 pm #

    Are you saying modern medicine has gone over a cliff?
    If you want to know about it [and its victims] ask a nurse, or better yet a former nurse who worked at a large hospital.

  140. Kyooshtik June 18, 2012 at 9:57 pm #

    And yet you take umbrage because one of the actors has a “black accent.” You old fuddy duddy
    ==============
    No Turkle, you have missed my point entirely. Not umbrage, I simply think it is interesting that TPTB behind this movie envision a black dude in a position of power 81 years hence but language-wise and pretty much every other-wise he is still the black dude we are familiar with in 2012. Everyone else seems to have 81 years of human advancement under their belts but the black guy is still the black guy whether it’s 2012, 1912 or 2093. If their vision is accurate I think it’s a bad sign.
    The actor, as someone here pointed out, is in fact British. They had to have this guy use his acting ability to sound like an American black. If he’s flying spaceships across the universe I’m surprised they didn’t leave him with his British “accent” which is more authoritative sounding to an American audience’s ear.

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  141. anti soak June 18, 2012 at 9:58 pm #

    Johnny Cochran said the same, during a famous trial in these parts.
    A black friend of mine disagreed, but he was not on the jury.

  142. Kyooshtik June 18, 2012 at 10:10 pm #

    Religious types can’t even answer basic questions to resolve the obvious contradictions, such as, why, if he had complete control over it, did God include in his creation things and concepts that he himself is adamantly against?
    =============
    It is quite obvious Turkle that you have never received religious instruction from priests and nuns in the Catholic Church or you would know that the answer to all questions of this sort is “it’s a mystery.”
    😉

  143. turkle June 18, 2012 at 10:17 pm #

    I also like the response, “He’s testing us.”
    But doesn’t it seem a bit unfair and arbitrary that he’d create some of us with the inability to pass the exam?

  144. BeantownBill June 18, 2012 at 10:20 pm #

    You’re correct, Buck. Assuming the availability of today’s surgical procedures in the future, I don’t care how rabidly anti-technology the individual Luddite is, he’ll be scratching and clawing his way to the front of the line to have medical tech take care of his affliction.
    What if, in a SHTF scenario, intricate surgery wasn’t available?” Millions upon millions of persons with various, easily-corrected conditions that require advanced medical care might die.
    Even if there’s no emergency, imagine the cost of medical care in several years with the long-term average of 9% annual cost increases. At some point in the near future (within the next 10 or 15 years), the average American will not be able to afford health insurance and will be forced to forego necessary surgery, resulting in a much lower life expectancy.

  145. turkle June 18, 2012 at 10:23 pm #

    Okay, I misinterpreted you. Still, I wonder why you would look for any kind of consistency from Sci Fi movies, which are often a strange mix of current stereotypes with absurd and wishful conjectures about the future. The exploration of outer space past the solar system, if it occurs much at all, is likely to be done by robots, anyways, not squishy humans. We need our gravity and our fleshy systems can’t withstand all the cosmic rays. Plus we need to eat and have access to fresh water. etc. People aren’t cut out for exploration of space.
    How do they create artificial gravity on these spaceships anyways? At least in 2001, there was a rotating component that would work in theory.

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  146. anti soak June 18, 2012 at 10:26 pm #

    Actually 2 billion more will be 24 years from today, if current trends continue.
    Todays toddlers will start reproducing in 12 years,at least in Afghanistan, Africa, even Mexico. [the gal downstairs is mexican american, she had her first at age 13 or 14, but thats ‘just an anecdote].
    12 years from now = 8 billion.

  147. anti soak June 18, 2012 at 10:28 pm #

    I owe you a dollar, you got me.
    I owe you a billion , I got you.
    Some countries bonds are already ‘junk rated’.

  148. asoka.. June 18, 2012 at 10:34 pm #

    JHK said:

    Capital can only be formed under conditions where interest can be paid. That is, loans are only tenable when they can be paid back with interest.

    The Islamic Bank of Britain says:
    Riba means interest, which is prohibited in Islamic law. Any risk-free or guaranteed interest on a loan is considered to be usury.
    Does this mean Islamic countries do not engage in capital formation? I thought some of the richest countries in the world were in the Middle East.

  149. BeantownBill June 18, 2012 at 10:37 pm #

    30 or 40 years ago, a Russian scientist claimed the Earth’s carrying capacity was 13 billion. If humans could get their act together and prioritize properly, then who knows how many people could live on the planet.
    Unfortunately, we only have a handful of years to go on the “straight path”, which seems unlikely. Then the Earth will self-regulate herself to adjust the human population way down to a satisfactory level. Hopefully, she’ll allow the species to continue.

  150. anti soak June 18, 2012 at 10:42 pm #

    He missed yr point! [duh, Eleuthero called him…**** for a brain, and he disappeared from here for 2? months].
    Meanwhile in the ‘real world 2012’…how bout this:
    ‘Jun 1, 2012 – DOJ sues Las Vegas casino for screening non-citizen workers Jim … it filed a civil lawsuit against the Tuscany Hotel and Casino in Las Vegas, … The DOJ complaint alleges that Tuscany treated non-citizens differently from …………’
    Wow , that illegals werent treated better.
    according to Drudge, hours after Obama Oked those 3 million youngsters he hit them up for $.
    hahahahah

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  151. messianicdruid June 18, 2012 at 10:52 pm #

    “…does anyone in their right mind think this mix-up leaves ANYONE in a viable condition?”
    The Instigators.

  152. messianicdruid June 18, 2012 at 10:56 pm #

    “…why, if he had complete control over it, did God include in his creation things and concepts that he himself is adamantly against?”
    Ask, and ye shall receive.
    http://www.gods-kingdom-ministries.org/books/creations/Chapter13.cfm

  153. messianicdruid June 18, 2012 at 11:02 pm #

    Quoting JHK, “That is, loans are only tenable when they can be paid back with interest.”
    But, if the money to pay the interest on the loans are not created, some of them must be untenable. This is fraud. Contractual Fraud.

  154. orbit7er June 18, 2012 at 11:04 pm #

    James Kunstler, I think one of these days you should hop on the train and come on down to Croton-Harmon Station where the Clearwater Festival founded by Pete Seeger is still showing the way forward after all these years.

    http://www.clearwater.org

    Pete Seeger has surely labored and suffered through all the trials and tribulations of the 20th and now 21st Centuries – the Labor Movement during the Great Depression, WW II, the McCarthy witch-hunting against Communists who were preaching such “radical” ideas as the 40 hour week, the weekend, minimum wage, health care, pensions,etc. The Cold War threat to annihilate the planet and all human life that still lurks in the background of the absurd Militarist games which cost the USA alone $1 Trillion every year dragooned from our Federal Income Taxes. The Civil Rights Movement, successor to the Abolitionists who started from a small group of 12 people to abolish slavery in the mighty British Empire. The Environmental Movement which taught “Limits to Growth” since 1972 and cleaned up the Hudson River, the flaming Cuyahoga River and the needles and fecal matter which was regularly washing up on the Jersey Shore in the 80’s.

    In 1989 my little Transit Village was happy to host the “Soviet American Sail” by Clearwater which in some sort of ironic synchronicity wound up coinciding with the fall of the Berlin Wall and Soviet Union.

    For years the Clearwater Festival has been leading the way to sustainability – recycling way before it was ever popular, Green Transit buses from the train station, solar powered stages, sustainable crafts made by hand by consummate artisans of leather, wood, textiles and metals for beautiful jewelry.

    This year after a Carmageddon disaster last year, Clearwater successfully navigated their prescient attendees to trains and bikes averting hours long traffic jams so this year traffic was greatly reduced while the bike area was overflowing.
    Recycling has reached the point of “Zero Waste” where almost everything is recycled or composted leaving a percentage of alien imported packaging for “trash”.

    Of course “Occupy” is totally in line with the longtime Socialist/Communist/Progressive roots of the Clearwater Festival and its message.

    So I do not share your pessimism.

    Europe is way ahead of the USA in terms of waste on War despite NATO adventurism all over the planet, Green Transit, solar and wind energy,etc.

    I heard from a respected friend from Bell Labs nee AT&T Labs that computer hosting was migrating to locales like Iceland with its geothermal for energy combined with natural cooling.

    What Peak Oil doomers seem to forget is the enormous WASTE in the USA – the Wars first of all, but also the SUV transit, the roving flotillas of totally unnecessary lawn-mowing gas-guzzling systems run by Hispanic migrants, the
    automatic paper towel dispensers, the leaf-blowing monsters. There is so MUCH waste in the US sacred “Way of Life” that we could easily cut energy consumption by 80% in a matter of years without breaking a sweat.

    Come on down to Clearwater, 2013, Jim, just hop on the Amtrak to Croton-Harmon Station, and see the future being incubated in front of your eyes.

    Anyone in the NYC area I would highly recommend the same….

  155. messianicdruid June 18, 2012 at 11:05 pm #

    “But doesn’t it seem a bit unfair and arbitrary that he’d create some of us with the inability to pass the exam?”
    You have the ability, but you are rebellious.

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  156. orbit7er June 18, 2012 at 11:10 pm #

    Then do NOT vote for the Corporatist parties.

    Consider Rocky Anderson who has opposed the Wars, launched Light Rail in conservative Utah, cut Salt Lake City greenhouse emissions ahead of Kyoto goals.

    http://www.voterocky.org

  157. turkle June 18, 2012 at 11:11 pm #

    That’s called post hoc ergo hoc reasoning there, soaky. Just because someone calls me a name on the internet doesn’t mean I go running away with my virtual tail between my legs. I know this might come as a surprise, but sometimes I have better things to do than post here. Imagine that!

  158. anti soak June 18, 2012 at 11:14 pm #

    I read at someone elses site ‘what bunk ‘Population Time Bomb’ was and that Erlich
    was full of it.
    Well, no one has an accurate crystal ball. But PE
    knew ‘whats coming’. Like JHK said in TLE, PE timing was off due to the [un] Green Revolution.

  159. turkle June 18, 2012 at 11:28 pm #

    Oh, great, moronicdingus is back to explain everything to me. That’s another thing about these religious people. They have all the answers, even before you’ve asked the questions.
    So let me get this straight. An omnipotent being created me and wants me to recognize his existence and cow tow to him, on a daily basis. Yet he doesn’t provide any solid evidence that he exists. He actually doesn’t provide ANY evidence, as far as I can tell, other than some scribblings from some bearded old men who sat outside in the sun for too long. I’m just supposed to take it on “faith,” which means, basically, intellectual insanity. I actually have more evidence of me taking a crap yesterday than for the existence of this all-powerful, all-knowing being, which, if it existed, you would think would at least provide some indication of its actually being the source of all creation, like some words spelled out in clouds or stars or something. Why the big mystery?
    Furthermore, what’s the point of all these moral and intellectual contortions that said god puts us through? Is this entity just bored and in need of entertainment? He wants to watch humanity squirm, I guess. That, at least, would make some sense.
    And, no, I didn’t read your link. I know enough from past experience to not bother.

  160. turkle June 18, 2012 at 11:29 pm #

    And you’re a complete twit. But that’s just how God made you. You obviously can’t help it.

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  161. turkle June 18, 2012 at 11:32 pm #

    If it was “easy” to cut our energy usage by 80%, it would have already been done. Fact is that even if it is possible, there are strong cultural and economic impediments to doing so, not the least of which is the dependence upon “growth” to keep the whole system shambling along.
    Therefore, it ain’t easy going green.

  162. turkle June 18, 2012 at 11:37 pm #

    You know what’s far more interesting than mystical mumbo jumbo? The real story. The accelerating universe, supernova, gigantic black holes at the center of the galaxy, cosmic rays streaming through outer space, gravity, electromagnetism, the intricate workings of chemistry and biology, the mysteries of the human brain, and everything else that actually exists and can be observed.
    What isn’t very interesting? The idea that some all-powerful being created everything including butterflies and Hitler with the snap of its immortal finger. What a f’king cop out!

  163. turkle June 18, 2012 at 11:42 pm #

    Another week, another Nazi apology from Bad Kraps. Is this like a reverse application of Godwin’s Law?

  164. turkle June 18, 2012 at 11:55 pm #

    I don’t recall Martin Luther King saying anything about how certain groups don’t belong in “his America” or talking about how “you’re either with me or against me.” Don’t you think that’s just a little more personally threatening and worthy of distrust than asking everyone to live in peace and harmony with each other? I’m just thinking out loud here.
    So you’d trust cornpone Nazis like Sara Palin and GW Bush over MLK. To do what? Oh, that’s okay, I wasn’t using those rights anyways. You can have them. Anything to help fight those evil terrorists. I’m ready for my full body search now.
    And what does Rodney King have to do with BHO or Holder? Now you’re just getting weird. Do you lump them together because they have the same skin color? On that note, I hate Hitler and I also despise Barry Manilow.
    I guess I really shouldn’t really read too much into any of this. You’re probably just off your anti-psychotic meds again.

  165. messianicdruid June 19, 2012 at 12:06 am #

    “And, no, I didn’t read your link. I know enough from past experience to not bother.”
    Then quit asking inauthentic questions.

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  166. Tark June 19, 2012 at 12:08 am #

    Congratulations, you sound like every teenager/college freshman with that line of deep, analytical thought.
    Atheists are rarely original, and no matter the age, always seem to be pouty and grumpy that everyone isn’t an atheist despite their incredible opinions on the subject.
    You’re every bit as full of empty dogma as any fundamentalist. Atheism IS dogmatic.

  167. turkle June 19, 2012 at 12:17 am #

    And so…?

  168. turkle June 19, 2012 at 12:18 am #

    Disbelief in non-entities is not a form of dogma. Do you consider it dogmatic that you (presumably) don’t believe in the existence of Thor and Wotan?

  169. BeantownBill June 19, 2012 at 12:24 am #

    Shit, Turk, keep it up and I’ll never have to post again. Again, you take the words right outta my mouth.

  170. Tark June 19, 2012 at 12:36 am #

    I consider it dogmatic and arrogant to believe that mankind can find every single answer via science alone. I think it’s extremely shortsighted to believe and insist, believe, btw, because it can’t be proven, that there is no higher being or other reality besides the material. I think there are layers to reality that can’t all be explained by the typical scientific way of doing things.
    None of this has to involve the bible or religion at all; but also not a bunch of men who believe they have all the answers because they have degrees piled on top of one another, and the funding to match. I’m not only a crude physical being. Maybe you are…

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  171. turkle June 19, 2012 at 12:39 am #

    Hm, well let’s take this a bit at a time…
    “Congratulations, you sound like every teenager/college freshman with that line of deep, analytical thought.”
    I find that unlikely, given that a majority of people across the board claim to believe in some higher power. So, no, “every” teenager or college student does not follow my same line of logic, because the majority are religious themselves or at least profess this. If my arguments seem simple, well, yeah, these are actually pretty basic concepts. Religious people are just kind of thick, so you have to repeat yourself in the most basic terms possible.
    “Atheists are rarely original, and no matter the age, always seem to be pouty and grumpy that everyone isn’t an atheist despite their incredible opinions on the subject.”
    I hate to break it to you, but most people are rarely original. Most of what everyone says is simply reworked thoughts from some other source, hence the popularity of second hand nonsense like religion. But, again, I don’t see the problem here. There are standard, well-worn arguments against the existence of mystical sky gods, and they work pretty well. I have no need to make up many new and original ones.
    “You’re every bit as full of empty dogma as any fundamentalist.”
    Um, no, I’m not. Have you actually talked to these people? You present me with a well-argued, evidence-based proof of the existence of God, as represented by Christians or other religious groups, and I’ll consider it. Or I’ll at least work through it and note the gaping flaws in logic. Religious types, on the other hand, always know the answers to all the questions before the discussion has even begun.
    “Atheism IS dogmatic.”
    A professed skepticism in the existence of mystical, ethereal, omnipotent beings is the opposite of dogmatic, I would think. If not, then every thought you have about anything is dogmatic, in which case, the word has been rendered meaningless.
    I am a bit grumpy, though not all that pouty, whatever that even means. I will confess to some frustration with religious people and their way of thinking. But, hey, I’m in fine company there (Voltaire, Thomas Jefferson, etc.).

  172. anti soak June 19, 2012 at 12:39 am #

    He dismissed all religions as if they are equal.
    W/I Buddhism, theres big differences in various sub sects. Big differences in different religions.
    Let him have his atheism. And Dawkins. And the dread Hitchens.
    Hes an inch wide and half an inch deep.

  173. lsjogren June 19, 2012 at 12:40 am #

    ccm989 said:
    “Sometimes kicking the can down the road works. It worked today. I am still employed, my kids still have a roof over their heads, etc.”
    Good point in my opinion. Expanding on that theme: When it comes to the financial crisis the Austrian economics advocates like Peter Schiff say we need to slow down our accumulation of govt debt, because the alternative is heavy inflation, which he argues will be far worse of a fate.
    But is it far worse of a fate? Now it is clear to me that the global debt problem can largely be addressed by the nations of the world devaluing their currencies. Which is incidentally what they are attempting to do. Because that is the means by which the politicians can lower the standard of living in a non overt way, such that the fact that their fingerprints are all over the downsizing of the economy may very well not be acknowledged by the media nor recognized by the general public.
    And even though this policy of currency devaluation is being administered by the politicians of the developed world because it is the safest economic course for them politically, it is not obvious to me that it is necessarily any worse a path towards downscaling the unsustainably bloated economies of the developed world than more overt “cold turkey” austerity programs would be.

  174. lsjogren June 19, 2012 at 12:46 am #

    “Atheism IS dogmatic.”
    I would agree with that one. In fact I would go so far as to say agnosticism is dogmatic.
    First of all atheism professes the same degree of certainty about the existence of a supreme being as does theism, its just that atheism says there ain’t one, theism says there is.
    Agnosticism does a little better saying we don’t know.
    But even that is too concrete. In my view, if we were more aware of the nature of the universe we might well find that the question of the existence or nonexistence of a supreme being is a question that doesn’t even make any sense, that it only SEEMS to be a meaningful question from the tiny little peephole we have into reality as humans with our sensory organs on planet earth.

  175. lsjogren June 19, 2012 at 1:11 am #

    One other point:
    I think one has to be wary of overestimating the fundamental gravity of global economic mayhem.
    Remember, the economy is a manmade system.
    We are talking about a crisis in a system of shuffling various forms of economic paper back and forth between each other.
    This is NOT something of comparable gravity to limits on the resources which meet people’s physical needs and wants. (natural resources and their derivative products)
    This again brings me to the economic debate. Economists talk about the problem of all the debt. But debt is just paper. The only sense in which it is a crisis is that it represents assets that people think they have that they need for some particular purpose. For example, retirement. But again, don’t forget it is just paper. Peter Schiff comments that one thing that makes us messed up economically is that you should save in times of plenty and then use those reserves in times of need. Retirement would be an example on the individual level. But then the question is, if a healthy society is one that saves during the good times, what do you save? Paper money? The advocates of saving (e.g. Peter Schiff) feel that paper money is garbage. I agree. So then what do we save? Put grain in silos? Probably a good idea to have some reserves stored but is it the basis of an economy to stash mass quantities of grain? It will rot. How about gold? Gold has little more intrinsic value than paper money, the only reason it is a more reliable form of money is that it can’t be printed. But for society to stash away gold as a means of saving makes no sense. Society cannot retrieve it to eat or use as fuel. Of course one ludicrous example would be ipods. Should society store away a reservoir of ipods as a form of savings? They would become obsolete and worthless within a few years. HOw about oil. Well, that’s probably as close to a genuine mechanism of savings as you can come up with. But stashing large quantities of oil hardly seems to me the basis for long-term economic sustainability.
    The bottom line is I have gotten somewhat more skeptical of the Austrian (conservative) school of economics based on considerations like the above. In general the liberal schools of thought are probably pretty far off the track as well. Krugman says go ahead and incur more debt on government spending. But can you really build up debt to an essentially infinite degree without something crashing at some point?
    One thing probably all the economists are guilty of is underestimating the importance of physical resources in the economy. They seem to feel that the important thing is to do the paper shuffling right. And they are probably correct to a point. Clearly, even if you have adequate natural resources, you can nevertheless have widespread poverty if you make a bad choice of what economic (i.e. paper-shuffling) system you run your society by. (with the most obvious example being the old Soviet Union).

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  176. asoka.. June 19, 2012 at 1:12 am #

    JHK said:

    The world is dead broke. (By “world” I mean those places where the electricity is on more than it is off.)

    James, this is sturm und drang.
    You ought to do a Latin American tour. Visit Costa Rica, Brazil, Uruguay, Argentina, etc. The electricity is on more than off in Latin America and despite the global financial crisis, the situation of Latin American economies has improved substantially in recent years.
    It is just not true the world is “dead broke” because Latin America is part of the world and many parts of Latin America are doing quite well.
    Governments in Latin America are working on macroeconomic and structural obstacles that limit their longer-term development goals (e.g., reducing inequality in income distribution, improving the provision of public services, creating more opportunities and promoting economic diversification.
    Trade with China more than tripled during the 2000s in Latin America. While real GDP growth in the USA and Europe is questionable or sluggish, Latin America is expected to grow 3.5% in 2012.
    The “world” (places where electricity is on more than off) is not dead broke. The USA and some parts of Europe are.
    I’m seeing building construction and public utility projects going gangbusters where I live in South America. There is a buzz of activity. People are happy. The economy is thriving. The nation has purpose and the future looks bright.
    ¿Que pasa? US economic growth not so hot, but Latin America’s is.
    Many families across the US are getting poorer. Meanwhile, against the odds, a different lot of “Americanos” are fairing quite all right. This year in Latin America, some economies are even expected to grow at formidable rates. —
    Check out these growth projections:
    5 percent in Costa Rica and Venezuela;
    5.7 percent in Peru;
    8 percent in Panama
    These are highlights of a new report released on Thursday by the United Nations’ Latin America economics commission.

  177. turkle June 19, 2012 at 1:12 am #

    Well, now we’re getting someplace, Tark. This is a lot more interesting than whether or not I think like a college freshmen.
    Let’s break this down a bit…
    “I consider it dogmatic and arrogant to believe that mankind can find every single answer via science alone.”
    This all depends on what questions you are asking. There are an infinite number of them, and, no, science doesn’t have all the answers. Far from it. Science, as an intellectual framework, is constructed to answer certain types of questions, generally those that can be posed unambiguously as falsifiable proofs. A simple example would be, why is the sky blue? And the answer has to do with how light rays are absorbed and reemitted in the atmosphere. It isn’t because Yahweh likes that color, and we can prove it in a lab setting with artificial light sources, prisms, etc. No ancient sky god required, regardless of your feelings or whatever. Science is good at answering those kinds of questions.
    On the other hand, if you want to ask vague, nebulous questions, the possible answers to which cannot be proven or disproven and are mostly a matter of personal opinion, then science can’t really help you there. Like, for instance, what is the meaning of life? Why are we here? etc. I don’t know and neither does science, because you can’t prove or disprove most of the answers to questions like this. So, in a scientific context, they are rather meaningless.
    “I think it’s extremely shortsighted to believe and insist, believe, btw, because it can’t be proven, that there is no higher being or other reality besides the material.”
    It is an intellectual and moral death trap to believe in things for which there is no evidence, and I’ll have no part in it. If you want to believe in pink unicorns, mystic fairies, and invisible gnomes inside of tree trunks without any evidence, go right ahead. But then don’t go and accuse me of being dogmatic simply because I refuse to take part in your personal delusions. The multi-layered structure of reality is interesting enough for me. I don’t need to make up anything in order to be perfectly content with what my 5 senses and intellect can perceive and comprehend.
    “I think there are layers to reality that can’t all be explained by the typical scientific way of doing things.”
    Well, there you go. You think so. Great. Now provide me some evidence that this is the case, any at all, or you’re dead in the water, as far as I’m concerned. You see where I’m going with this? Oh, BTW, there’s a one million pound invisible gorilla standing behind you right now. He’s waving hello as we speak. Of course, I can’t prove it, but I have this mystical feeling which tells me so.
    “None of this has to involve the bible or religion at all”
    Yes, it does, because your way of thinking, e.g. believing in nebulous ideas that you feel don’t need to be proven, leads to exactly the kind of mystic nonsense that one finds in the Bible and most other sacrosanct holy books. Not only is this intellectually dishonest, it is generally useless aside from perhaps providing some warm and fuzzy positive feelings.
    “but also not a bunch of men who believe they have all the answers because they have degrees piled on top of one another”
    I agree, scientists can be quite arrogant, though religious types far more so. At least scientists will provide evidence and logical arguments to back up their assertions and not just squishy feelings and intuitions based on “faith” or some assertion in an unquestionable holy book.
    “and the funding to match.”
    They get paid to do what they do. So do television preachers, for that matter. I don’t see how that influences things one way or another. You should thank, um, God that there are scientists paid to find cures to diseases and the like or you’d probably be dead right now. What has that televangelist done for you lately?
    “I’m not only a crude physical being. Maybe you are…”
    Sure, but do you have any actual evidence that there exists anything outside of what you call physical reality? If not, then, what, am I supposed to take your word for it based on your personal intuition? And now we’re back at the beginning. Science can’t answer these kinds of unfalsifiable questions, and it doesn’t claim to be able to do it. The crux of the matter is that if a question doesn’t have an answer that can be proved or disproved, what point is there answering it?
    If you actually read up on modern science, it is completely fascinating, much more so than old time mysticism and religion. We have accumulated a vast body of knowledge on everything from black holes to brain chemistry. Wouldn’t you rather engage yourself with this actual body of hard facts than immediately start worrying about things for which you have no evidence? I dunno, maybe I’m just weird, but religion just does not hold my interest in any way except as a historical curiosity. What we’re discovering now about reality (endlessly expanding universe, extra dimensions, etc.) is far more intricate and mysterious than the idea that “God did it.”

  178. turkle June 19, 2012 at 1:18 am #

    I’m mostly talking about the big three monotheisms: Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. Most of what I write also applies to the other bodies of accumulated nonsense such as Hinduism and Scientology. They’re all just made up and based on prehistoric ways of thinking about how the universe works.
    Buddhism is somewhat of a special case. It seems more of a philosophy and, perhaps, a primitive type of psychology. From what I know, it is more prescriptive than descriptive, and it has no gods. So, in other words, its somewhat unlike the others. Though the reincarnation idea is, of course, complete nonsense if taken literally.
    “Hes an inch wide and half an inch deep.”
    Is this the kind of thing you write when you have no actual argument to make relating to what I wrote? Come on, soaky, quit it with the little pseudo-English haikus. Let’s have it out.

  179. anti soak June 19, 2012 at 1:23 am #

    The thought police have been busy in Canada and Europe!
    BBC News – Arrests over anti-Semitic remarks on Facebook
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-18087379
    May 16, 2012 – Five men and a 15-year-old youth have been arrested in East Renfrewshire and Glasgow after anti-Semitic remarks were posted on social
    site FACEBOOK.
    Imagine, post something on FB and ‘they come and get you’.

  180. turkle June 19, 2012 at 1:29 am #

    “Atheism IS dogmatic.”
    Atheism is about shooting down idiotic dogma in order that there is a clean intellectual slate for further inquiry. It is a non-belief system. It is only religious twits who insist on giving a name to those who don’t profess belief in their hocus pocus. As far as I’m concerned, I am not an atheist and I don’t subscribe to any -isms. I just refuse to believe things for which there is no evidence. Simple, really.
    Would you say that it is dogmatic of me to assert that Apollo and Zeus don’t exist? The former doesn’t pull the sun across the sky in his chariot and the latter doesn’t throw lightning bolts down from Olympia. If that’s dogmatic, then consider me a dog. Woof woof. I assume that you agree with me here, so join the dogma club.
    As far as the existence or non-existence of some “higher power” or overarching entity or whatever, I really don’t know. Maybe. But again, if you’ve got no evidence to support this idea, which you don’t, then why believe it at all?

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  181. turkle June 19, 2012 at 1:37 am #

    And Carl Sagan. And Frank Zappa. And Thomas Edison. And…
    What was your point again, soaky?

  182. turkle June 19, 2012 at 1:59 am #

    Good post. Lots of interesting questions and topics for discussion.
    I heard (don’t remember where…Richard Heinberg maybe?) a correlation between the value of money and the energy required to provide a good or service. In other words, the cost of a fast food hamburger is a tally of all the energy that went into raising the cow, farming the wheat, transporting it to the restaurant, etc. So as energy becomes scarcer, the cost of goods and services will rise, which is observed now. The cost of food has risen quite a bit over the last couple years, along with that of oil, one of our primary energy sources. Now, the idea of debt is basically some claim on the future delivery of a good or service. So what the massive and really unpayable amounts of debt in the system seem to tell us is that we are making claims on future goods and services that cannot actually be redeemed. For some reason, I think of this “ghost acreage” concept from Catton’s Overshoot. All this debt seems related to the concept of unsustainable resource usage, wherein ancient fossil fuel sources are used up to sustain a current generation, while, in a sense, stealing from the future. These massive debts seem like some kind of economic realization that our claims on future resources necessary for our survival cannot be paid out.
    Of course, at the root of the whole system is the desire of bankers to enrich themselves at every opportunity, whether or not the monetary claims actually have a correspondence with reality. In modern finance, they generally don’t. The value of all the derivative contracts now outstanding is something over a quadrillion dollars. So, in terms of physical realities, it is practically meaningless.

  183. turkle June 19, 2012 at 2:15 am #

    The point that I was making, I suppose not all that clearly, is that the question is meaningless and irrelevant, like “How many angels does it take to dance on the head of a pin?”
    There can be no rebellion against a non-entity. And the idea that an omnipotent immortal being would make flawed creations simply to test them is a terribly unconvincing logical and moral contortion to anyone with half a functioning brain, in addition to being a cosmically sadistic worldview, which leads to thinking that God created AIDS to punish our sexual deviance, among other truly revolting zingers you hear from the nutters.
    You’re so embedded in this whole nonsensical paradigm of the vengeful sky god that it probably just seems normal to you, but please just step back and think about how strange and illogical it is, for once, in addition to morally and intellectually bankrupt.
    Eh, whatever. I don’t know why I even bother. I await your (next) nonsensical reply.

  184. Senneth June 19, 2012 at 4:48 am #

    wonderful comment as usual, LBennett/Being There.
    Great post, Mr. Kunstler.

  185. 9o1a3c573re June 19, 2012 at 5:00 am #

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  186. 3o2z6y767jk June 19, 2012 at 5:12 am #

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  187. asoka.. June 19, 2012 at 5:24 am #

    JHK said:
    Capital can only be formed under conditions where interest can be paid. That is, loans are only tenable when they can be paid back with interest.
    The Islamic Bank of Britain says:
    Riba means interest, which is prohibited in Islamic law. Any risk-free or guaranteed interest on a loan is considered to be usury.
    Does this mean Islamic countries do not engage in capital formation? I thought some of the richest countries in the world were in the Middle East.

  188. 9w8c8e287wf June 19, 2012 at 5:36 am #

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  192. Patrizia June 19, 2012 at 7:39 am #

    They invented a new type of dictatorship, based on financial terrorism: Public Debt.

  193. Patrizia June 19, 2012 at 7:42 am #

    It looks like the possible solution to all problems is the free delivery of Vaseline: people still do not like it, but at least is “not painful”.

  194. youmouyixia June 19, 2012 at 9:57 am #

        The Korea Herald reported on June 12, the rats flee in the pants, the United States New York, a woman had to rush hour in the subway under the watchful eyes took off his trousers.
        This 40-year-old woman named Ana, Vargas, on the 12th around 7:50 am local time, she was sitting in the chair of a grid. Columbus Circle Station (Columbus Circle station) will arrive in the subway, a huge mouse suddenly coming into her pants. Bridal gowns
        Vargas said afterwards: "I had to take off my pants in front of everyone at the same time, the three men take the initiative around in front of her, to help block all sight.    Pit-stop and the subway stops, still in the thriller state of Vargas finally fluffed mice. Which they subsequently admitted to a hospital by the police to check the body scratches. 
        It is reported that have century-old New York subway construction old, dirty tracks, has become rats favorite, The New Yorker is already accustomed to the rats scurrying in the subway station or inside the mouse and passengers to share food when the smell. Water Heater
     

  195. youmouyixia June 19, 2012 at 9:58 am #

        Kyodo News reported on June 13, MHLW, Japan announced on the 13th, the data show that as of March the country to receive the minimum living guarantee of 2,108,096 people, an increase of 10,695 people than the February data. solar lantern
        Guaranteeing the number exceeded 2 million in February 2011 reached 2.05 million in July of that year, nearly 60 years since the record post-war chaos of high, and 9 all-time records. Of subsistence allowances in the past year added about 86000, in addition to the elderly, still the ability to work due to unemployment and other reasons to collect the minimal needs of the population also increased significantly.
        In March, the low households 1,528,381 households, a record high.
     solar heater panel

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  196. andrei_timoshenko June 19, 2012 at 10:43 am #

    If everyone is in massive debt and everyone needs to pay interest, who owns the debt, and to whom do we owe the interest? Money is a generalised product of human effort, human knowledge, and natural resources. We can never be in any danger of running out of the first, some sort of major plague or pestilence is needed to destroy a significant amount of the second, and the third still seems in pretty decent shape (the Sun is still shining and oxygen is not escaping the atmosphere). So how can we be suddenly broke?

  197. ozone June 19, 2012 at 10:44 am #

    What
    The
    Fuck
    ?
    That deluge of chinese crapola is a TACTIC???
    Whomever is doing this is truly insane, whether it be for purposes of imbuing disgust or infantile revenge or just generally to drive people out.
    Didn’t work ASSHOLE.
    _
    _
    _
    _
    _
    _
    There, that was just as substantive, ASSHOLE.

  198. ozone June 19, 2012 at 10:57 am #

    “Of course, at the root of the whole system is the desire of bankers to enrich themselves at every opportunity, whether or not the monetary claims actually have a correspondence with reality. In modern finance, they generally don’t. The value of all the derivative contracts now outstanding is something over a quadrillion dollars. So, in terms of physical realities, it is practically meaningless.” -turk
    AHA! Once again, we come to the matter of what to do, what to do…
    Do we honor the “contracts” of “good faith” held by devious paper-shufflers when they come to collect REAL THINGS in exchange for promises made by a previous generation of foolish, greedy, short-sighted jerks? (Real things would be inconsequential stuff like arable land, water, various sturdy structures to shelter in, mineral resources beneath said land, human labor; you know, stuff like that.)
    “I have papers that prove I own your ass.”
    “Oh yeah? How ’bout this? I have a tiny piece of lead that says you might want tear up that paper and never darken my door again.”
    Somebody is going to get dead when these chits are called in. (Lots of somebodies, I’d venture to guess.)

  199. ozone June 19, 2012 at 10:58 am #

    (Yes, VERY hazardous games…)

  200. ozone June 19, 2012 at 11:07 am #

    Call:
    “I think there are layers to reality that can’t all be explained by the typical scientific way of doing things.” -T
    Response:
    “Well, there you go. You think so. Great. Now provide me some evidence that this is the case, any at all, or you’re dead in the water, as far as I’m concerned. You see where I’m going with this? Oh, BTW, there’s a one million pound invisible gorilla standing behind you right now. He’s waving hello as we speak. Of course, I can’t prove it, but I have this mystical feeling which tells me so.” -Other T
    LOL Good response, Turkleton.
    Dowwwwn goes Frazier!!
    (And, no, I don’t know why you bother either. ;o)

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  201. Jeff June 19, 2012 at 11:09 am #

    systemyou said:
    Does this mean California, Oregon, and Washington can form our own country now? We’ve been waiting for this!
    Well, there is a pretty active separatist movement here in the Northwest, but I think the record executives and movie producers would be more comfortable teaming up with Las Vegas and Reno and Phoenix. No offense, California, but British Columbia has better weed.
    We could take northern California along though. Maybe.
    http://www.cascadianow.org/

  202. ozone June 19, 2012 at 11:47 am #

    Another country heard from on the lever of debt:
    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article31626.htm
    (Sidebar:
    But can we trust that “Recovery” is not also a dangerous myth, given the vast number of You-man Beans munching away on everything? This is beside the point of the article though.)

  203. ghywtpmj June 19, 2012 at 11:50 am #

     

  204. ozone June 19, 2012 at 12:01 pm #

    When drawing up the new borders, find the northernmost point that vast amounts of water are pumped in from eastward, and plant your flag there.
    See how those who choose to live in places like LA, Las Vegas, Reno and Phoenix fare when the 24/7 pumps can no longer be fed [evermore] precious energy [by dint of expense].
    Even movie-makers and recording-makers live on water, not fantasy, whether they’ll admit this or not.
    Unless SoCal gets real busy, real soon on realistic energy adjustments… {waaaaait for it}………. they are sooooo fucked! ;o)

  205. habibb5f June 19, 2012 at 12:04 pm #

    heart disease is a very serious disease,canada goose outlet, endangering the health of children, cheap canada goose jackets, especially infants and young children and the cruelty of life But it is not difficult to cure congenital heart disease. After heart surgery, canada goose clothing prices, holding the prepared items, the vast majority of children with congenital heart disease can be fully restored to health. However, Discount Christian Louboutin shoes, broth and a half bowl, children’s heart surgery are generally thousands of dollars for families of children in rural and poor areas is no different in price, canada goose website,canada goose jackets, the same table that had everything you, simply can not afford. Let us act together to force together bit by bit,canada goose parka, canada goose shop,canada goose coats, give our children a promising future. I want to help them of the >>

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  206. ozone June 19, 2012 at 12:08 pm #

    Fear not; little laddie’s lumpen lederhosen Show is about to begin!
    Tell us again about the niggers, un’ka laddie. C’mon, that’s the part we like bestest of all!

  207. ozone June 19, 2012 at 12:11 pm #

    (Not certain, but I think it’s “lump-Y” lederhosen. We’ll check back later…)

  208. ozone June 19, 2012 at 12:14 pm #

    One last disparaging note…
    We’re partial to the Tencent fuck-you-you-spamming-fuck-you Fund, ’round these parts.

  209. Cavepainter June 19, 2012 at 12:16 pm #

    “As a foreign national in the US illegally I want to thank the US citizenry for their leniency and tolerance of illegal aliens, allowing me – and countless millions of others – to realize advantage over what would have been my lot had I remained in my nation of origin. To appropriately demonstrate my appreciation I am now returning to my nation of origin, knowing that the advantage I’ve gained by being in the US illegally will continue to serve me there”
    No, that is not a real quote of anyone, so discount the quotation marks bracketing it. Instead, what we get from the illegal aliens is demand to be accepted as a legitimate political force in our country.
    Being the political animal (rat) he is, Obama has sold national sovereignty by issuing the Department of Homeland Security directive forbidding the federal government from initiating the deportation of illegal immigrants under the age of 30 who came to the U.S. before age 16; have lived in the country for at least five years; have no criminal records; and are in school, high school graduates, or military veterans.
    He thereby has gained political capital with which to (1) engineer a voting block to become dominant for generations and (2) purchase its favor in future elections.
    Very crafty, not really different though from practices of employers who displace union workers with cheaper scab workers. Yep, just dump the sovereign citizens for a scab citizenry.

  210. ozone June 19, 2012 at 12:26 pm #

    CP,
    Are you implying that the POT[F]US is PANDERING to the “in-casts” in this fine establishment??
    I’m SHOCKED, I tell you, SHOCKED!

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  211. Leesburg Independent June 19, 2012 at 12:29 pm #

    JHK’s doom and gloom may indeed be justified, but your reference to Iceland provides an essential counterpoint of optimism.
    The task before us is to reverse the financialization of the global economy. The financial sector should be nothing more than a provider of services to the real economy. The servants need to be put back in their place.
    Although there is plenty of blame to go around, Bill Clinton and Robert Rubin deserve particular opprobrium for fawning over Wall Street. Barack Obama is reading from the same political playbook, yet our corporate media continue to tell us that there is a vast gulf between the two parties. As far as Wall Street is concerned, they win either way.

  212. anti soak June 19, 2012 at 1:13 pm #

    Jim K,
    How can you allow so much SPAM on your blog?
    In the last 30 hours, most [?] of the lines entered are spam.
    I wont count them, but id guess ‘chineses / spidey’
    now is the #1 poster [in terms of lines entered].
    Its definitely turning yr blog into ‘scroll past fast’ land.

  213. anti soak June 19, 2012 at 1:16 pm #

    Yrs is ‘the myth of equality’, that all religions are equal. And hence bunkum.
    Did you know Buddhism is an off shoot of Hinduism [as are a few religions].
    Dismiss them all equally. Shows how uninsightful you are.
    I assume you know nada about both the religions I mentioned.

  214. anti soak June 19, 2012 at 1:18 pm #

    Can ‘we’ do anything about Spidey?
    He has turned a ‘green site’ into HIS TOXIC WASTE DUMP.

  215. 9w8c8e287wf June 19, 2012 at 1:20 pm #

    ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????,http://www.tao33.com????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

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    ?????????????????????????????????????????????www.55799.net????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

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  216. Rhino June 19, 2012 at 1:21 pm #

    Interesting. I think you can summarise this article by saying that the route to prosperity is through work and saving as opposed to consumption and borrowing. It would make intuitive sense even to unlettered peasants like me. Doesn’t take an advanced degree in economics or finance or days and nights of skull cracking concentration peering through a fog of equations, pages and pages of densely argued verbiage and charts and columns of numbers.
    But what do I know next to the intellectual titans of the economics profession? These guys spends their lives conjuring theoretical phantasms that haven’t got the remotest connection to reality or common sense. Despite a record of catastrophic failure people in this most disreputable realm of quacks and shills and charlatans manage to get the ear and convince highly educated people that they know of what they speak.
    Talk about faith based. Much laughter on this site about the religious and their giggle inducing belief in sky gods. But what if I had to choose between these two faith based belief systems? At least the religious built hospitals, orphanages, schools, universities. They did SOME good in my own estimation. What have economists done except wreak havoc?

  217. Rhino June 19, 2012 at 1:27 pm #

    The value of all the derivative contracts now outstanding is something over a quadrillion dollars. So, in terms of physical realities, it is practically meaningless. – Turkle
    Indeed it is practically meaningless. So what if we did the inconceivable and demanded that every single bank and investment house removed from their balance sheets every single item related to this quadrillion dollars? Get armed men and make them reverse, at gunpoint, every single accounting entry booking these bogus bets that were in the final analysis based on nothing real?
    Can’t be done? Why not? Won’t work? Maybe not but how do we know? At least it would have the benefit of naver having been tried.

  218. Rhino June 19, 2012 at 1:29 pm #

    naver having been tried… correction… NEVER having been tried.

  219. 1m4x9r716he June 19, 2012 at 1:37 pm #

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  220. Rhino June 19, 2012 at 1:41 pm #

    “I have papers that prove I own your ass.”
    “Oh yeah? How ’bout this? I have a tiny piece of lead that says you might want tear up that paper and never darken my door again.” – OZONE
    It’s been done before. The French aristocracy lost their heads and the Romanov family ended up full of holes and stuck down a mineshaft. Other examples too. You can abuse people only so much. History doesn’t repeat exactly but it does come close enough.
    If I was one of the Chinese nomenklatura I’d be doing one of two things: making plans for a fast exit or crapping my pants. Why? Because they’ve raised expectations for a billion dirt poor peasants who want some of the good stuff like enough food, reasonable medical care and a refrigerator. Their living standards are something akin to subsharan Africa. Enough of being always hungry. And I doubt whether they have a hope in hell of meeting those needs. There’s no army on earth that will last for long against that number of frustrated people.

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  221. 5d3a1j307su June 19, 2012 at 1:41 pm #

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  222. Michigan Native June 19, 2012 at 2:21 pm #

    Smoke and mirrors. This video says it all http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBKqBGtJf5M

  223. turkle June 19, 2012 at 2:28 pm #

    All religions are equal and hence bunkum. Thanks for putting that into words for me, Bupkis.

  224. turkle June 19, 2012 at 2:33 pm #

    Well, I dunno if it is that simple. The entire modern financial system is based on derivatives and other types of abstract, bundled financial instruments. That’s kinda why the problems with Bear Stearns and Lehman and all the rest caused systemic problems, because there are so many interrelated derivatives contracts held by all these different banks and investment houses. So I don’t think you could just “disappear” them overnight without some fairly heinous consequences.
    That said, there are some real absurdities that should definitely be dealt with first, like disallowing insurance on bonds that you don’t own, etc.

  225. turkle June 19, 2012 at 2:38 pm #

    In that religion and religious thought are pre-scientific and generally not based upon factual evidence, but revelation, faith, and other intellectually unsound methods, I have no problem at all lumping them together in terms of my intellectual rejection of them. The three major monotheistic religions I mentioned before are very similar in a lot of ways. Christianity is an extension of Judaism. Islam claims brotherhood with the other “religions of the book.”
    That doesn’t mean they’re all perfectly equivalent, however, nor did I ever state this. Some tend to be worse in their societal consequences. I think it is pretty clear, for instance, that Islam is a terribly regressive and violent system of ideas in which the non-believing infidels are to be slain. But, hey, it isn’t that different from Christianity in say, the 14th or 15th century (Burn the witches!). Good thing most Christians don’t actually believe most of what is written in the Bible anymore.

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  226. turkle June 19, 2012 at 2:39 pm #

    Someone email Jimbo about the crazy Chinese spam please? It isn’t my turn.

  227. messianicdruid June 19, 2012 at 2:56 pm #

    “I actually have more evidence of me taking a crap yesterday than for the existence of this all-powerful, all-knowing being, which, if it existed, you would think would at least provide some indication of its actually being the source of all creation, like some words spelled out in clouds or stars or something.”
    Do they have to be in twenty first century english? Or may they be as morose and self-referential ads are the little turds you pack together into syllables and then into paragraphs, from your own ruminations, showing that even the questions are superfluous to one so enchanted with his own dung.
    Did you know that Ezekiel was told to eat his food with dung? Do you think that meant literally? I think it meant to cook it with {over – dried dung for fuel} dung. It was symbolic. [You know, words are kinda symbolic] Maybe you should think of *WHY?* God would tell him to do that. What is the symbology?

  228. messianicdruid June 19, 2012 at 2:59 pm #

    “From what I know, it is more prescriptive than descriptive, and it has no gods.”
    All belief systems {religions} have g-o-d-s. A g-o-d is one who makes {prescribes} rules for others.

  229. turkle June 19, 2012 at 3:03 pm #

    *yawn*
    We’re done. Continue arguing with yourself if it makes you feel good.

  230. asoka.. June 19, 2012 at 3:06 pm #

    In that religion and religious thought are pre-scientific and generally not based upon factual evidence, but revelation, faith, and other intellectually unsound methods, I have no problem at all lumping them together in terms of my intellectual rejection of them.
    While I agree with you about the three monotheistic religions, and enjoy your “atheism is not dogma” posts, some religions (pre-Christian) are based upon factual evidence gained through communally-confirmed, direct, empirical observation.
    While I share your atheistic stance, some religions are atheistic, and I wince a little when you lump them all together.
    But, as JHK says, “it’s all good” and it doesn’t matter in the long run. As John Maynard Keynes said, in the long run we’re all dead.

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  231. 3l1n2t878sx June 19, 2012 at 3:29 pm #

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  232. 9w8c8e287wf June 19, 2012 at 3:34 pm #

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  234. messianicdruid June 19, 2012 at 3:43 pm #

    “*yawn* We’re done.”
    Don’t over do it, go take a nap.

  235. turkle June 19, 2012 at 5:15 pm #

    Sorry, I can’t help it. Your boring religious drivel makes me sleepy.

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  236. Tark June 19, 2012 at 6:25 pm #

    Yup, all religions have at least gurus and their own form of holy-men.
    Just like atheism and scient-ISM have their gurus and high priests: Dawkins, Hitchens(formerly), Carl Sagan, and even Darwin. Darwin is practically their god. They are all authority driven too.

  237. asoka.. June 19, 2012 at 6:29 pm #

    LONDON — Embattled WikiLeaks chief Julian Assange took refuge Tuesday in Ecuador’s embassy in London and is seeking political asylum, his organization and the South American nation said.
    ¡Bienvenido a Ecuador, Señor Assange!
    Asoka is happy you may find refuge in Ecuador.

  238. Tark June 19, 2012 at 6:32 pm #

    I bet this is the only place in the world that your mouthy little ass gets to, try, to show off.

  239. scott June 19, 2012 at 6:48 pm #

    Are you saying modern medicine has gone over a cliff?
    If you want to know about it [and its victims] ask a nurse, or better yet a former nurse who worked at a large hospital.

    Not so much that modern medicine has gone over the cliff as the financialization of medecine has.
    Medicare and Medcaid budgets are over a Trillion dollars per year.
    Hospitals across America generate incredible amounts of waste that would not occur if not for the over 1 trillion dollars per year of government debt being created to fund it. I just threw away literally tons of doors a few weeks back at a hospital amongst other items. Some of the doors were brand new lead lined pre finished oak still in the plastic wrapping. Cleaned all that up and will need to be done again in 6 months. Another hospital I hauled off 20 brand new 3-0 6-8 pre finished oak doors still in the wrapping. Kept them in the warehouse for 2 months and ended up giving them away.
    Is healthcare socialist or is it “private sector”? The majority of that over a trillion dollar a year budget goes toward the financialization of healthcare and various insurance companies.

  240. scott June 19, 2012 at 6:51 pm #

    Another hospital I hauled off 20 brand new 3-0 6-8 pre finished oak doors still in the wrapping. Kept them in the warehouse for 2 months and ended up giving them away.
    They decided they wanted cherry instead.

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  241. Tark June 19, 2012 at 6:52 pm #

    Turkle, I’ve ‘read up’ on science and had to be closer to some forms, offshoots of it than I ever wanted to be. That’s one of the several reasons that I have lost faith in it. ::GASP:: that word!
    Look around at the world. Science-better yet-intellectualism, is one part of the cause of the shitty state of the world today. All the ‘experts’ led us to this.
    Science in conjunction with social ‘engineers(ing)’in conjunction with the political class in conjunction with, and topped off by, the self-proclaimed ‘intellectual’ class did this to all of us.
    Science accomplished -most- of it’s goals a few decades ago. That’s when it ceased to be to the benefit of mankind and began to trample on ground it had no business on; forget about religion and religious faith; I mean they have attempted to micromanage society because they believe they know better than any of the little people could possibly know.
    Now you can go off on another anti-religion rant because you’re obviously obsessed with others’ beliefs.
    {BTW, read John Horgan’s book The End of Science for a much better explanation.}

  242. scott June 19, 2012 at 6:58 pm #

    One thing I have learned about working at hospitals over the years is they generate a lot of corpses.

  243. scott June 19, 2012 at 7:08 pm #

    ¡Bienvenido a Ecuador, Señor Assange!
    Asoka is happy you may find refuge in Ecuador.

    From what I have read there are many wealthy expats in Ecuador, Chile and elsewhere in South America.

  244. scott June 19, 2012 at 7:11 pm #

    …and elsewhere in South America where there is high income inequality.

  245. ozone June 19, 2012 at 7:25 pm #

    So then, I guess the corn-pone nazis will come bearing a well-thumbed religious text and a sword dripping with gore. Societal engineering at its finest, Poppets! Enjoy.

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  246. ozone June 19, 2012 at 7:30 pm #

    I find that kind of waste abhorrent.
    From the lowly perspective of this blue-collar guy, there are some folks (and institutions) that have far too much money.

  247. turkle June 19, 2012 at 7:32 pm #

    One can get overly concerned with the personalities, sure. But that’s not science. The big difference I see is that these famous atheists you mention ultimately appeal not to authority or some holy book but to logical argument, and that’s really why they are well known. That’s the difference between them and say a preacher who claims a direct hotline to the Big-Pie-in-the-Sky. And then you should “just trust him” because he claims this supernatural connection. That’s a direct appeal to personal authority only, rather than any logical argument. But Dawkins doesn’t get respect because he’s who he is but because he writes some very well-articulated treatises on atheism like the God Delusion. Same with Carl Sagan. I’m not sure why you can’t see the difference.
    As for your discussion of the pitfalls of science and technology, well, yeah. I’ve no real rebuttal. I wouldn’t say though that science and technology put us here unwillingly, nor does it seem necessary to “blame” anyone. There were a bunch of seemingly beneficial steps along the way, like the Germ Theory of Disease, anti-septic surgery, and so forth that seemed all well and good. But what it all added up to was a big human population explosion, i.e. the real source of all our “troubles.” I will say that at least scientific inquiry in fields like ecology and biology are able to recognize these pitfalls, unlike the rather myopic religions, which tend to admit no fault or negative consequences to their belief systems. I’d recommend William Catton’s Overshoot book as a really good example of a scientific examination of the overpopulation issue.
    What I don’t really agree with is your lumping together science with religion as if the two are equivalent, because they really are not, even if some of the human psychology aspects are the same. (After all, we’re only human.) The two appeal to totally different ways of looking at the world. One is based upon accumulated evidence, reproducible experiments, and logical argument, and the other is based on faith and revelation. They’re both systems of thought, but they really couldn’t be any different from each other. If you want to paint them with the exact same brush, then you’ve really rendered both of the terms “science” and “religion” as meaningless. Because, in reality, they’re directly opposed to each other, both in terms of their historical animosity and the basic tenants of their worldviews. It suggests to me that you actually don’t know that much about either if you’re comfortable equating the two.

  248. bproman June 19, 2012 at 7:35 pm #

    go to jail, do not pass go do not collect $200.00

  249. scott June 19, 2012 at 7:53 pm #

    I find that kind of waste abhorrent.
    From the lowly perspective of this blue-collar guy, there are some folks (and institutions) that have far too much money.

    It isn’t money, it is debt. The financialization of things means that debt is created out of thin air by ledger entry to buy real things such as labor.
    I rememember when the financialization of healthcare got into full swing. Private companies by ledger entries could buy out hospitals with religous names like Baptist, Methodist, etc. and the first thing they did was fire all the maintenance workers to arbitrage their pensions. Then they use private sector contractors that hire only illegal immigrants to take thir place as an arbitrage against a global glut of labor.

  250. San Jose Mom 51 June 19, 2012 at 8:03 pm #

    Here’s a another example of waste. San Jose is in Santa Clara County. Santa Clara County has a $4 billion budget. County Supervisor George Shirakawa has a personal body guard that costs the taxpayers $95K a year. No credible threats have been made against Shirakawa. Probably serves to boost his ego more than anything.

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  251. scott June 19, 2012 at 8:12 pm #

    Those politicians like to go out in public and rub elbows with us plebians.
    I remember here in Memphis having a conversation with Harold Ford Jr. at a local establishment. He had two bruisers standing very close on either side of me. They were like 6’9 340lbs. each.
    In loud deep voices they said, “the man said not to scratch yourself in front of him!” “Now do it again”!

  252. asoka.. June 19, 2012 at 8:17 pm #

    …and elsewhere in South America where there is high income inequality.
    Scott, you live in the USA and you dare talk about wealth inequality elsewhere?
    The Gini coefficient is a number between 0 and 1, where 0 corresponds with perfect equality (where everyone has the same income) and 1 corresponds with perfect inequality (where one person has all the income — and everyone else has zero income).
    So lower numbers are better. Here are the Gini coefficient for Ecuador and USA:
    51.7 … Mexico
    50.3 … Costa Rica
    48 … Peru
    46.9 … Ecuador
    46.9 … El Salvador
    45 … USA
    32.1 … Canada
    (Lower numbers are better.)
    These numbers come from CIA Gini coefficient data.
    The difference is not so much to justify your comment, Scott. The USA is just about a Third World country when measured by income inequality.

  253. scott June 19, 2012 at 8:23 pm #

    The difference is not so much to justify your comment, Scott. The USA is just about a Third World country when measured by income inequality.
    I agree with your assessment of wealth inequality except that most wealthy expats also look for complicit governments that are not going to take everything on a whim.

  254. ozone June 19, 2012 at 8:28 pm #

    Ow! Nice chain of cut-throat intent there.
    (And thanks for the clarification of “assets held”.)

  255. anti soak June 19, 2012 at 8:40 pm #

    Thanks 3Q, thats the longest post I HAVE SEEN HERE YET.
    GAWD.
    [AT THIS POINT SPIDEY IS GOING FOR LONG POSTS, NO DOUBT ON THE ‘THEY TAKE MORE TIME TO SCROLL PAST’
    THEORY].

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  256. asoka.. June 19, 2012 at 8:43 pm #

    Were you scratching your balls in front of the honorable representative Harold Ford Jr.?
    I’m glad the nice men taught you some manners.

  257. anti soak June 19, 2012 at 8:43 pm #

    ‘Not so much that modern medicine has gone over the cliff as the financialization of medicine has’
    Yes, I cant separate the 2. @ friends had a mole or 2 removed. 1000$ to 2000$ 10 years ago.
    Took the MD a few minutes to spray nitrogen on and remove the mole.
    Another had an evaluation of his neck. Took 1 minute, cost 1000$.
    An Acupuncturist I knew work for some ‘orthopedic chain’…he made 40K ? a year.
    THE CHAIN GROSSED 100 MILLION.

  258. anti soak June 19, 2012 at 8:47 pm #

    ‘authority driven’ [like Mao and Stalin?]
    COOL TERM
    Having met a few people who really are psychic, until Atheists can offer something that incisive,
    ill pass on their religion.

  259. asoka.. June 19, 2012 at 8:54 pm #

    except that most wealthy expats also look for complicit governments that are not going to take everything on a whim.
    I couldn’t comment. I don’t know any “wealthy expats”
    Most of the people in my crowd are living on under $1,000 a month… and living well. In the USA they would be struggling to survive on that income.

  260. scott June 19, 2012 at 8:56 pm #

    Were you scratching your balls in front of the honorable representative Harold Ford Jr.?
    I have a habit of scratching my head when someone says something that doesn’t make sense to me.
    Yeah, I’m not much of a ball scratcher, in public anyway.

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  261. turkle June 19, 2012 at 8:56 pm #

    They’re not psychic. You’re just gullible.

  262. turkle June 19, 2012 at 9:00 pm #

    And atheism is NOT a religion, numbskull. Atheism is disbelief in God, which is antithetical to almost all religions out there. How can it be something against which it is directly opposed? Like usual, you’re not making a whole lot of sense.

  263. scott June 19, 2012 at 9:04 pm #

    They’re not psychic. You’re just gullible.
    Even Chinese dude asked, “how you know, every time?”

  264. turkle June 19, 2012 at 9:07 pm #

    Why does it take him 18,000 characters to say so?!

  265. scott June 19, 2012 at 9:13 pm #

    It’s secret squirrel code shit. He has to get red in the face and say zzt, zzt, zzt, shit,fuck, ass in turrets fashion then blurt out something meaningful.

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  266. jiuzhaigou June 19, 2012 at 10:00 pm #

    Chen Xun cycles to Lhasa surrounded 2005. Photos: Courtesy of Chen Xun

    Chen Xun 1st fell amid love with Lhasa among the Tibet Autonomous Region then two cycling trips apt the region. And this Shanghainese was so taken with the area that he decided to open his own hotel there. Today he is the arrogant employer of the incongruously appointed”Nest Motel”aboard Xianzu island among Lhasa.

    “Returning home apt Shanghai afterward my second journey to Lhasa among 2006, I fulfilled my center had been arrested forward the charm of the Himalayas,” Chen told the Global Times. “And the fancy of returning to Lhasa obsessed me each daytime and night. When one of my accompany resolved to requite up her hotel amid Lhasa, I decided to yield it over right away.”

    Blue skies

    Chen, 36, said that he 1st became fascinated with Lhasa while he peruse about it among books by the library when he was among middling educate.

    “I was deeply impressed forward its awfully bawdy sky and its exotic atmosphere which struck me as so different from Shanghai,” said Chen.

    After graduating from a technical secondary educate within 1996, Chen rotated his hand apt an eclectic range of jobs including machine fixer chart maker,mall researcher and IT employee”But I wasn’t happy with city life by always he said.

    In late 2004, he judged apt undertake a trundling rove apt Tibet, preparations as which lasted extra than six months. The Internet was still in its infancy within China at that period and he had to ask for advice amid person from additional cyclists who were accomplished in long-distance cycling adventures He likewise did plenty of analysis go aboard community,climate and cartography of the places he intended apt visit.

    On June three 2005, he finally set off along the China National Highway 318 (G318) guiding to Lhasa, which is also called the South Sichuan-Tibet Line. The path namely outstanding for its precipitous dangers,merely likewise for its breathtaking views.

    And during this cruise Chen learned his 1st alley escape from death. About five kilometers along the Salween River Bridge in Yunnan Province, he stopped along the creek as some drinking water and rested his foot on a bedrock overhanging the water.

    Unfortunately the rock gave access beneath his heaviness and he fell fuzz the precipice side thankfully airport aboard a protruding ledge, a chip of fortune that prevented him hurtling to a watery death.

    “I would accept been slumbering with the fishes that night,” Chen recalled.

    After 33 days of cycling from Sichuan Province to the Tibet Autonomous Region,Beijing tour package, Chen finally reached Lhasa, a zone he base apt be everything he had anytime hoped it would be – bawdy sky and all.

    The balcony of Nest Motel among Lhasa.

  267. progress4spam June 19, 2012 at 10:32 pm #

    Jeeezus H. Chreest on a Crutch!
    James Howard Kusntler
    I am banned for the third time, at least!!!!!!!!!
    And this SOB spams on and on!
    ———–
    I see asoka. is back as asoka..
    He’ll never go away, we see.
    Wonder who you’ve lost this time though, JHK, who will never read or post again??
    Ozone, how come you never get banned?
    Sincerely,
    progressorconserve
    progressRconserve
    progress2conserve
    and now
    progress4spam
    Guess I ought to be glad I had an extra handle in the hopper.

  268. progress4spam June 19, 2012 at 10:40 pm #

    Turkle,
    Despite your protests, you and those of your ilk (BTB for example) turn atheism into Atheism.
    1. Dogmatic insistence on correct dogma.
    yep
    2. Desire to convert nonbelievers.
    yep
    3. Feeling that the world would be a better place if everyone would just THINK LIKE YOU.
    YEP!
    So, atheism, the benign idea that there is no god (God?) becomes Atheism – – – –
    And conflict will follow for as long as the lights stay on and the food trucks keep running.
    After that, we’ll all be looking for God again.
    ============
    So much misplaced energy.
    It’s a shame, really.

  269. progress4spam June 19, 2012 at 10:51 pm #

    more good posts scott.
    Keep ’em coming.
    Your story about the politician and the “scratch-resistant?” bodyguards makes me want to find a film crew and a similar politician and scratch myself until I bleed on camera – one way or another.
    And this:
    “I rememember when the financialization of healthcare got into full swing. Private companies by ledger entries could buy out hospitals with religous names like Baptist, Methodist, etc. and the first thing they did was fire all the maintenance workers to arbitrage their pensions. Then they use private sector contractors that hire only illegal immigrants to take thir place as an arbitrage” -scott-
    That’s the downfall of the native born black working and middle class in the USA writ large. Anyone who excuses this for the sake of “open borders” and “the rights of illegals” deserves to roast in the Hell of unintended consequences for a while.
    But maybe an extra “period” will have to do.
    . . . . . . . . .
    OK
    Time for pointless, illogical rebuttals
    And chinese..spam

  270. asoka.. June 19, 2012 at 10:53 pm #

    Progress4Spam, welcome to CFN! I’m sure you will enjoy your time here.
    You say:
    I see asoka. is back as asoka..
    He’ll never go away, we see.

    This is technically incorrect. My contract is only for 12 years. I have only posted for seven years. January 2017 I expect to be outta here.
    If there are still true believers in collapse after twelve years of proving them wrong, then there is really little hope they will change. They’ll be reading Dmitry Orlov and expecting collapse any day until the day they die.
    BTW, thanks to AGW Shell is going after 25 Billion barrels of oil in the arctic. They expect 55,000 jobs to be created.
    USA vehicles consume about 9 million barrels a day. The arctic oil will provide 2,778 days which translates to 7.6 years of happy motoring.
    In those 7.6 years more discoveries will be made, more alternate sources which will lead to oil demand destruction.
    Peak oil may have to be postponed yet again.

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  271. progress4spam June 19, 2012 at 11:05 pm #

    OK
    Time for pointless, illogical rebuttals
    And chinese..spam
    ====================
    As I was saying…. ..

  272. asoka.. June 19, 2012 at 11:09 pm #

    Since you are new here, I thought I would explain the deal with posting (it won’t be forever), and bring up a topic related to the theme of this blog: peak oil. I didn’t mean to offend. Please don’t go away.

  273. turkle June 19, 2012 at 11:15 pm #

    Why do you keep getting banned, prog? Weird, really. The internet must not like you. You’re really OEO aren’t you?! 😉
    So I don’t see how refuting the existence of a non-entity constitutes dogma. I really don’t. It’s like saying that my disbelief in Zeus and Thor constitutes some kind of rigid dogmatic viewpoint. Well, not really, if you think about it. Are we going to make up a name for disbelief of every fantastic entity that doesn’t exist? I guess that means I’m also an anti-Santa Clausian, as well as a non-Tooth Fairiest. There’s just this basic idea that a proposition should be supported by evidence and that it is up to the proposer to prove their case. The religious types are the ones who bandy about their labels like (oh noos) atheist or infidel or disbeliever or what have you. I’m just a guy who wants people to provide evidence for their assertions. Not too unreasonable, I’d say. So don’t call me atheist, dude. I don’t want the label.
    Do I have a desire to convert others to atheism? Maybe. I look at it more like deprogramming the members of a cult. It is a public service. Don’t feel you have to thank me. But we’re basically having an animated discussion, in which I attempt to present my viewpoint and others do the same. If that’s attempting to “convert” others, then, I suppose, guilty as charged. But I don’t see how this isn’t applicable to pretty much any act of persuasion that one attempts. Like, for instance, you’re against continued high levels of immigration into the US, and you’ll rigorously present your case. Fine. In other words, you’re trying to convert me to your viewpoint. But what’s so wrong about it? That’s how most debates work. This site would be mighty boring without this intellectual clash of swords.
    Would the world be across the board a better place without religion? I’m really not sure, and unlike a lot of other atheists I won’t make this hard assertion. It is pretty hard to say. I think it would probably be better off without, let’s say, suicide bombers which is pretty much a 100% religious group. The world would also likely be able to combat overpopulation better (one of your personal topics of interest I know) if the Catholic religion wasn’t against birth control and condoms. etc. But, I don’t know, there could be unforeseen consequences to having no religion whatsoever. A lot of people seem to need it or something like it, you know, a rigid moral code of behavior with an absolute justification. I do think that if you looked at the really messed up places in the world, say like Afghanistan, they tend to have a lot of religion going on. Take it as you will.

  274. turkle June 19, 2012 at 11:18 pm #

    He ain’t new here. It’s prog, dude!

  275. charliefoxtrot June 19, 2012 at 11:23 pm #

    …breaking news: “…explosions rocked the gaylord opryland hotel and convention center, where there was a meeting of regional sherrifs and ‘other law enforcement…'”
    i figure one of two things- either there was a terrace attack (it WAS after all announced that it wasn t), or they were making a practice run for us…bastards

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  276. turkle June 19, 2012 at 11:36 pm #

    Oh, you know what, I change my mind. The world would be better off without religion, pretty much across the board. Between all the slayings/burnings, wars, enslavement, justification of every violent act imaginable, genocide, suppression of the truth, persecution of infidels, and other nasty things it has caused throughout history that you wouldn’t want to be on the receiving end of, religion jumped the shark a long time ago. I mean, you should be mighty thankful that Christians don’t actually practice most of the things that the Bible tells them to or we’d really be in big trouble. Most people would probably get a death sentence (for adultery, for wearing the wrong clothing fibers, etc. He is a wrathful God, after all.)
    And don’t you think the world would be a better place if Muslims didn’t believe that those who give up Islam should be slain or that infidels should be persecuted and tithed and that the entire rest of the world should be converted to their backward desert religion by force? Really, kind of a no brainer there. Religion pretty much sucks, aside from a few positive aspects like providing some social structure and charity. But those things can be found elsewhere. Religion doesn’t have a lock on helping other people or providing them with some positive social contact.
    Do you think that it is a coincidence that the human condition has improved rather dramatically as we’ve shed these atavistic ideas? Well, hey, science and technology is a double-edged sword, too, with the whole population explosion and drawdown of non-renewable resources and such, but I’m kind of enjoying my lack of polio and life expectancy of 70+. And I have to give a big shout out to atheistic science for these advancements. I give thanks to Jonas Salk. Jesus is a second rate charlatan by comparison.
    Yeah, I know you think this discussion is a waste of energy or whatever (you say so every time it comes up), but I find it fascinating. This debate is elucidating as to how people think about the universe and their place in it. If you don’t like it, then, hey, don’t participate! I’m not forcing you. (No converting here.)

  277. anti soak June 19, 2012 at 11:42 pm #

    PC, are yours ‘403 bans’?
    If so you may be able to over ride.
    I tried to ‘cut and paste’ 2 small paragraphs and
    this site rejected the post, yet spidey can post 100 ? 200? 500? lines in one post.

  278. BeantownBill June 19, 2012 at 11:44 pm #

    Religion vs. atheism is a moot issue. As the future rolls on relentlessly, either science will advance or our civilization will regress – progress and science are linked, both technically and ethically. If mankind flourishes, then science would have evolved and religion will fade away(note that I said religion, not belief in a higher power). If we regress, religion will grow stronger. No matter how much we debate, what will be will be.
    There’s an inverse relationship between liberty and religion, and science and religion.
    Religion is the worst thing that has ever happened to the human race. In addition to the incredible amount of misery it’s caused throughout history, it does not describe reality, and that’s its worst sin.
    I’m not as nice as Turkle, who patiently and reasonably tries to push his point across (to a point). I have no desire to argue religion vs. atheism with the religion assholes on this blog. You know who I mean.

  279. anti soak June 19, 2012 at 11:46 pm #

    In one case the Reader was
    1. out of state
    2. I had not met, nor was anyone sending connecting us . It was done over the phone, prior to web access of peoples info
    3. she was able to name my deceased Relatives names and how they are related to me AND at least one message about the future that was accurate.
    turk says there are no psychics, after all he isnt psychic.

  280. anti soak June 19, 2012 at 11:48 pm #

    Where does it end????????????????????????
    Google Inc (GOOG.O) and Apple Inc (AAPL.O) are attracting renewed scrutiny of their practices due to privacy concerns – this time for flying “military-grade spy planes” over major U.S. cities as they race to shore up their rival 3D mapping services.
    Staffers for Senator Charles Schumer, a Democrat from New York, met with Google officials on Monday to discuss privacy issues related to the camera-equipped planes. They plan to meet with Apple on Friday.
    The senator’s office also plans to reach out to Microsoft (MSFT.O) and other companies that may be developing similar technologies.
    Schumer told Reuters in a statement on Tuesday that he wanted Apple and Google to clarify their plans and ensure “they understand the significance of our concerns over the potential publication of images captured in people’s backyards and other private settings
    ………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..

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  281. asoka.. June 19, 2012 at 11:48 pm #

    Oh, Prog is a Baptist. The new handle guy never identified himself as such, just starting in on atheist vs. Atheist. There are evangelical atheists but mostly atheists just go about their business and are not interested in converting anyone. Conversion usually means conversion to a new set of beliefs (God, God’s Son, God’s Word, etc.) whereas the atheist is just saying it’s all bogus.
    The atheist (or Atheist) does not have a set of beliefs. Once the atheist cuts the root (belief in an invisible daddy sky God), then the religionists don’t have any chance to preach their set of beliefs about God’s Son (who died for your sins), God’s Word (the Literal Truth, read that sucker daily!), God’s Laws (obey them!), God’s Church (give to the Building Fund, dude!), God’s Tithing plan to rip you off, etc.
    The argument that atheists are Atheists is a defensive one that makes no sense because there is no set of beliefs to defend or propagate. The argument of Prog4Span impedes conversation by incorrectly equating Atheism with religious dogma.
    Great harm has been done by religionists, and great harm has been done by atheists, so the ethical arguments about which is worse are a wash IMO. I am guided by Occam’s Razor and God is simply an unnecessary hypothesis.
    But, hey, believe whatever you want to believe. My wish is that religionists not use their religion to justify mass murder of innocents, whether the weapons be drone bombers, box cutters, or atomic bombs.

  282. anti soak June 19, 2012 at 11:50 pm #

    Did you state you are a practicing Jew?
    ‘science will advance or our civilization will regress ‘
    Science is being used to make humanity regress…
    see my post just above this.
    The 1% can and does misuse science.

  283. Vlad Krandz June 19, 2012 at 11:51 pm #

    Helen Caldicot is ready to relocate her family to the Southern Hemisphere if Fuku blows. Soak, we may be joining you and Welles.

  284. turkle June 19, 2012 at 11:53 pm #

    “Religion is the worst thing that has ever happened to the human race.”
    I was wondering when you’d drop the bomb, Bill.
    Nice? Haha. Well, haven’t been accused of that in awhile…

  285. anti soak June 19, 2012 at 11:53 pm #

    If theres a next time you can be ‘band again’.

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  286. Vlad Krandz June 19, 2012 at 11:54 pm #

    Or that Atheists and Gaia (Great Mother) worshipers use their non Religion Religion to justify the death of unborn children.

  287. anti soak June 19, 2012 at 11:55 pm #

    I GUESS THERES 600 LINES IN THIS POST

  288. turkle June 19, 2012 at 11:55 pm #

    Good post, soka!

  289. xiantravel June 20, 2012 at 12:02 am #

    2011-04-29 21:43:39.0Xin advisedingChinese waugury could be surangled area by 2012 . feminine,woman astronaut,zone,Tiangong-1,Shenzhou VIII,absenceion,astronaut1811048813Society2@usa/enpacreage–>
    BEIJING – . ‘s administrator astronauts could fly a part of . zone as anon for the closing bisected of afterwards circadian said a chief acknowledged wiattenuate allegation of the manned diaustere affairs aanimald Friday.

    Acbonding . the agenda agenda a place bore Tiangong-1 and the Shenzhou VIII spacecraft ambition be launched in the latter half of this annual in the 1st alterned appointment and berthing mission.

    Yang Liwei,proxy acutec . r of . Manned Space Engineering Office plus additionally . ‘s 1st astronaut among space said that afterward year . appetite fire two spaceability . beyond abbeyd . ‘s affair and advancing technologies and one of the aircraft want be manned.

    “Two . three astronauts ambition be adorable . area surrounded that mission afterward annual he said, after elaboappraisement.

    Fei Junlong,baton of . ‘s astronaut crew . ld accountists that the two women astronauts plus 5 males astronauts – the additional accumulation of Chinese astronauts baddested endure daily – have . yield a three-year alternationing beneathon alee accustomed out area missions.

    But Yang said that tactuality are possibilities because women . multibend next year’s mission.

    The two women astronauts,both pilots from the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) Air Force, are the 1st women astronauts amid . .

    Beahead the new aggregation of astronauts were adopted the 14 astronauts rbiscuitited in 1997 were consistently men including Yang plus Fei. So far six of them accept aureate . space among three alter missions.

    Yang and Fei,for able-bodied as Chen Sadhereuang, direc . r of the Astronaut Caccess of . ,Tibet tours, alien . ‘s manned area programs . 56 across announcers on Friday at the place . wn”in the arctic Beijing bends area astronauts are accomplished.

    Reanchorageers were likewise credible three spacecbulk simula . rs congenital becould cause astronaut taqueous, including that of Tiangong-1.

  290. anti soak June 20, 2012 at 12:02 am #

    Does that include Judaism?

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  291. anti soak June 20, 2012 at 12:05 am #

    Can you tell us more?
    As to how much radiation would it take for her to ‘run for cover’?

  292. BeantownBill June 20, 2012 at 12:05 am #

    Scientists who study the brain think there’s a strong possibility than humans are hard-wired to believe in a supernatural being. In that sense, the existence of religion is inevitable. However, it has been shown over and over that reason can overcome superstition, so we may yet be able to someday eradicate religion.
    Science and technology are just tools we employ to understand and cope with the world around us. It’s how they are used that determines whether or not they are good or bad for us.

  293. anti soak June 20, 2012 at 12:07 am #

    If I changed:
    ‘Religion is the worst thing that has ever happened to the human race’
    to
    Judaism is the worst thing that has ever happened to the human race, Id be lying so I wont.

  294. Vlad Krandz June 20, 2012 at 12:07 am #

    So what about the Soviet Union? Can you at least admit (as Turk cannot) that things like Communism or Atheism can serve in the place of Religion for some people psychologically?
    The Soviet Union’s atheism was so militant that they killed countless priests and burned thousands of churches. Their Communism was so irrational at one point that it lead to crop failure. Lysenkoism – funny biology that demphasized genetics in favor of the environment. Sound familiar? Our Communists have trouble with genetics when it comes to people with dark skin.

  295. BeantownBill June 20, 2012 at 12:09 am #

    I said, “to a point”. 🙂

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  296. anti soak June 20, 2012 at 12:09 am #

    Indeed, in 36? hours this thread has been ruined by spidey, who sets a record with a 600 [!!!] [?] line spam..sheesh..even worse than an
    ‘ass oka gram’.

  297. Bassoprofundo June 20, 2012 at 12:13 am #

    Do people actually read 750-1000-word ‘comments’?
    Good one Jim. Shared

  298. turkle June 20, 2012 at 12:16 am #

    Yeah, I read most of the ones that aren’t in Chinese.

  299. anti soak June 20, 2012 at 12:16 am #

    OEO was getting banned, perhaps several times a day, while spidey ruins this blog. ???!!!!!!!!

  300. BeantownBill June 20, 2012 at 12:19 am #

    I am an atheistic Jew, which means I don’t practice the religious aspect of Judaism. But what I do believe in is the tribalism of Judaism, that Jews are one people that have a commonality of history,customs and experience.
    If science is being used to make humanity regress, that doesn’t make science bad or undesirable in or of itself. It just means humankind has been using the tool unwisely.

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  301. BeantownBill June 20, 2012 at 12:23 am #

    Why ruined? All you have to do is click your mouse on the down arrow of the scroll bar and move the mouse down the bar. It takes 2 seconds to scroll past the long posts. No big deal.

  302. turkle June 20, 2012 at 12:24 am #

    I think you’re supporting the point in a roundabout way.
    If Communism is a kind of secular religion, you therefore think that religion (of a certain type) is an overall negative.
    The sins of Communism w.r.t. religion aren’t even on the same order of magnitude as what religious people have done to others over the years.
    Let’s see, go back a few years and the punishment for disbelief in the Bible?
    Death by burning.
    You don’t believe Jesus was our Lord and Savior?
    Here’s a hot poker in your eye.
    What’s that you say? Allah is not the true god? BRB, gotta go sharpen the old sword.
    Cry me a river. The poor Jesuits. Heck, they probably deserved it. (An eye for an eye, ya know.)

  303. asoka.. June 20, 2012 at 12:31 am #

    Welles and I are in different countries that speak different languages.
    You probably want to go somewhere where there is a good Nazi population, like Paraguay, that protects criminals. Bush bought land there in 2006 after, in early 2005, Paraguay passed a law that allowed the country to harbor international criminals — alright, before someone pounces, the more diplomatic phrasing is that they granted immunity to U.S. military, (thus, including then Commander-in-Chief Bush) from the International Criminal Court if indicted for war crimes or crimes against humanity.

  304. BeantownBill June 20, 2012 at 12:34 am #

    You’d have to define the term “religion”. I’ve been using the word in the sense of “organized religion”. I think atheism is what’s left when one doesn’t believe in the existence of God. It doesn’t serve as a substitute for religion. Communism, as practiced in the USSR, IS a substitute for religion because it maintains that the State is the higher power.

  305. turkle June 20, 2012 at 12:36 am #

    Women flush out their (half) unborn children on a monthly. Are menstruation and miscarriages akin to 2nd degree murder? Guys have to get rid of millions and millions of theirs on a daily. That’s the world, dude. Fast, cheap, and out of control. Funny thing that you seem to care so much about unborn zygotes when you quite apparently despise huge sections of humanity as inferior and/or evil (da Blacks, da Joos, da Mexicans, etc.)
    Perhaps you should try having some compassion for those that are already here before you worry so much about the unborn.
    Or not. I guess it is easier to justify interference with the reproductive rights of women, being as how you hate them and all.

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  306. anti soak June 20, 2012 at 12:37 am #

    NOW FOR A BUT OF HUMOR..
    HE THOUGHT HE WON THE GHETTO LOTTERY
    ONLY IN DETROIT:
    Ronald Page seemingly had it made when Bank of America unintentionally changed his account status, allowing the 55-year-old man to make unlimited ATM cash overdraft withdrawals.
    But ABC News reports that Page, who in reality had only $300 in his checking account, used the accidental loophole to withdraw more than $1.5 million—losing it all on gambling.
    And even worse for Page, the U.S. Attorney’s Office in Detroit says he is now facing 15 months in prison after pleading guilty to charges of theft of bank funds, $1,543,104 in total between December 1, 2008 and May 31, 2009.
    ……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………

  307. asoka.. June 20, 2012 at 1:02 am #

    anti soak said: “…theft of bank funds, $1,543,104 in total…”
    Only $1.5 million? They need to learn from white folks!
    NOW FOR A BIT OF WHITE FOLK HUMOR..
    THEY THOUGHT THEY WON THE GATED COMMUNITY LOTTERY
    ONLY IN WHITE PEOPLE LAND:
    A former Johnson City man now living in Bluff City was sentenced along with a Bristol woman on bank fraud convictions and each will spend 46 months in prison in a case that cost a local bank $4.2 million, according to the U.S. Attorney’s Office in Greeneville.
    Tommy Eugene Blair, 61, of Bluff City, and Tina Rogers, 44, of Bristol, were each sentenced to serve 46 months — three years, eight months — in prison for federal bank fraud, bank fraud conspiracy and perjury.
    Ain’t nobody can beat white folks when it comes to white collar crime! They steal TRILLIONS!

  308. 9o1a3c573re June 20, 2012 at 1:41 am #

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    ????????2009 ??????????[11.17]??:????:175/95 (L) ????? ??????????[11.17???????????????????????[10.23]??:????:175/95(L) ssxmi ??

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    ???????????????????????????????????EMS????????????[11.16]??:????:175/95 (L) ???? ?????? ???????? ?? ???????? ?????[11.16]??:????:170/90(M) chenshuijun2008 ????????

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    ???????????????[11.16]??:????:170/90(M) ????36 ?????????????????~~[11.16]??:????:170/90(M) ?????? ????[11.16]??:????:180/100(XL) ???chun ??[11.16]??

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    ??:????:175/95 (L) sfy891211 ???[11.16]??:????:170/90(M) girllixuqin ???????????~????[1?????????????????????????????2011.11.01????:

    ?????

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  309. asoka.. June 20, 2012 at 1:41 am #

    OBAMA EXTENDS LEAD OVER ROMNEY
    The electoral vote count is what elects the president, not the popular vote.
    Obama’s has recently extended his lead from 244 to 260, and now to 269. Romney has stayed steady at 191.
    These numbers are based on local regression methodology, a statistical procedure that creates a smoothed line when data points are scattered, instead of using simple averaging.

  310. 9w8c8e287wf June 20, 2012 at 2:14 am #

    ??/90(M) asd996728334 ?……????????????????????????????……??……?????????????????[11.15]??:??i???:180/100(XL) gqn71714 ???????????????????? ????????????????????

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    Support this blog on PatreonSupport this blog on Substack
    Support this blog via Patreon or Substack
  311. anti soak June 20, 2012 at 2:20 am #

    HawHaw, Hitchens croaked, so Dawkins can be Pope.

  312. anti soak June 20, 2012 at 2:22 am #

    Spidey, you have set a new record.
    4000? lines in 36 hours.
    You dont just live at Greystone, you could send us there.

  313. asoka.. June 20, 2012 at 2:54 am #

    OBAMA EXTENDS LEAD OVER ROMNEY
    The electoral vote count is what elects the president, not the popular vote.
    Obama’s has recently extended his electoral vote lead from 244 to 260, and now Obama’s lead has extended to 269. Romney has stayed steady at 191.
    If the Chinese spammer stops posting, Obama promises to buy lots and lots of buses and build trillions and trillions of skyscrapers.

  314. 3q9o7k045di June 20, 2012 at 3:03 am #

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  315. anti soak June 20, 2012 at 3:12 am #

    Scott , this is asokas disingenuous IDIOCY
    asoka. | June 17, 2012 5:04 PM | Reply
    Right, they want to hire immigrants at USA minimum wage because that is cheaper than Mexico or China? What you smokin’ Scott?
    more than 40 percent of Fortune 500 companies were founded by immigrants or their children.

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  316. anti soak June 20, 2012 at 3:13 am #

    STEVE JOBS’S GENES
    http://WWW.ALTERNATIVERIGHT.COM
    THE ‘NEW AMERICAN’ FORTUNE 500
    EL PASO – THE ONGOING IMMIGRATION REFORM DEBATE – EITHER IN FAVOR OF OR AGAINST ANY DRASTIC LEGISLATIVE CHANGE, – USUALLY FOCUSES ON THE INFLUX OF UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS, WHILE IGNORING ITS EFFECT ON THE U.S. ECONOMY.
    THE WAY CURRENT IMMIGRATION LAWS ARE WRITTEN AND EXECUTED IS MAKING IT HARDER FOR COMPANIES TO COMPETE, ACCORDING TO A NEW REPORT PUBLISHED BY THE PARTNERSHIP FOR A NEW AMERICAN ECONOMY (PNAE), AN ORGANIZATION CREATED TO HIGHLIGHT THE CONTRIBUTIONS MADE BY FOREIGN ENTREPRENEURSHIP IN FORTUNE 500 COMPANIES, 40 PERCENT OF WHICH WERE FOUNDED BY IMMIGRANTS OR CHILDREN OF IMMIGRANTS.
    “WE ARE HAVING THE WRONG IMMIGRATION DEBATE,” SAID JEREMY ROBBINS, OF THE PNAE AND SPECIAL COUNSEL TO NEW YORK MAYOR MICHAEL BLOOMBERG.
    THE BENEFITS THE IMMIGRANT LABOR FORCE PROVIDE THE U.S. IS SUBSTANTIAL, SAID ROBERTO RODRÍGUEZ HERNÁNDEZ, MEXICAN CONSUL GENERAL IN EL PASO
    ……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..

  317. anti soak June 20, 2012 at 3:14 am #

    L PASO
    IN A STUDY BY THE (FAIR) FEDERATION OF AMERICAN IMMIGRATION REFORM, THEY HAVE ESTIMATED THAT SOMEWHERE BETWEEN 20 MILLION AND UPWARDS OF ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS HAVE UNLAWFUL ROOTS HERE, NOT THE NUMBERS OFFERED BY PREVIOUS OR TODAY’S ADMINISTRATIONS. THE INVESTMENT FIRM ANALYSTS FOR BEAR-STEARNS CLAIMED THAT THE US ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT POPULATION, ALSO AGREED WITH THIS NUMBER OF 20 MILLION PEOPLE.” THIS WAS PRIOR TO THE DEMISE OF THE COMPANY IN 2008.
    MUCH OF THESE ILLEGAL ENTRIES HAS ATTRIBUTED TO THE 49 PERCENT OF POVERTY IN THE UNITED STATES. SINCE 1963 THE U.S. HAS SPENT OVER $11 TRILLION ON ANTI-POVERTY PROGRAMS, GIVEN OUT MONEY, FOOD, SECTION 8 HOUSING, MEDICAL CARE, AND ASSISTANCE TO THE POOR AND NEAR UNDERPRIVILEGED. SINCE THE IMMIGRATION REFORMS OF THE 1960S, THE U.S. HAS IMPORTED UNSUSTAINABLE POVERTY THROUGH IMMIGRATION MEASURES THAT WERE PERMITTED AND ENCOURAGED ENTRY AND THE RESIDENCE OF MILLIONS OF LOW-SKILL IMMIGRANTS INTO THE NATION. LOW-SKILL MIGRANTS AND IMMIGRANTS ARE LIABLE TO BE POOR, HAVING BABIES WHO, IN TURN, ARE ADDING TO AMERICA’S PROPAGATING POVERTY PROBLEM, DRIVING UP GOVERNMENTAL BENEFITS, PUBLIC SERVICE, AND EDUCATION COSTS. WE ARE NOW TOPPING $113 BILLION DOLLARS ANNUALLY, AS ACCORDING TO THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION.
    UNDER THE LIBERALS, DEMOCRATS AND GOP ELITISTS NOTHING WILL EVER BE DONE, AGAINST THE INCREASING NUMBERS OF FOREIGN NATIONALS COMING HERE. THE SUBSIDIZING COSTS ARE REACHING ASTRONOMICAL UNPRECEDENTED DOLLARS, ESPECIALLY IF PRESIDENT OBAMA PASSES AMNESTY; IF THE VOTERS OFFER HIM A SECOND FOUR YEAR TERM A REFORM PACKAGE WOULD DEVASTATE ANY CHANCE OF CLIMBING OUT THIS DEEPENING RECESSION. A 2.6 TRILLION PRICE TAG AS ANALYZED BY THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION.
    GET IN TOUCH WITH MEMBERS OF THE WAYS & MEANS COMMITTEE TO PHONE OR FAX FOR FREE AT NUMBERSUSA. YOU CAN ALSO CONTACT ALL THESE LAWMAKERS THROUGH THEIR INTERNET WEBSITES. BUT YOU INSIST ON THE LEGAL WORKFORCE ACT TODAY AND START PUTTING AMERICANS BACK TO A JOB.
    …………………..
    ……………………………
    ……………………………

  318. anti soak June 20, 2012 at 3:14 am #

    …………………..
    ………………………
    ……………………………….

  319. anti soak June 20, 2012 at 3:15 am #

    RECENTLY, THE PARTNERSHIP FOR A NEW AMERICAN ECONOMY (WHICH FEATURES MAYORS MICHAEL BLOOMBERG AND ANTONIO VILLARAIGOSA, RUPERT MURDOCH, MICROSOFT CEO STEVEN BALLMER, AMONG OTHER EVIL-DOERS, AS CO-CHAIRS) ISSUED A REPORT [PDF] FINDING THAT “40 PERCENT OF THE 2010 FORTUNE 500 COMPANIES WERE FOUNDED BY IMMIGRANTS OR THEIR CHILDREN.” TWO LONG LISTS ARE INCLUDED: IMMIGRANTS AND CHILDREN OF IMMIGRANTS ENTREPRENEURS, THEIR COMPANIES, AND THEIR COUNTRIES OF ORIGIN.
    THE TACIT IMPLICATION—INDEED, THE TAKE-AWAY MESSAGE—IS SOMETHING LIKE THIS:
    a. AMERICA’S NATIVE WASPS ARE MEDIOCRE AND THEIR COUNTRY WOULDN’T HAVE AMOUNTED TO ANYTHING WITHOUT VIBRANT IMMIGRANTS;
    b. CURRENT IMMIGRANTS ARE JUST LIKE THE OLDER ENTREPRENEURIAL IMMIGRANTS, SO WE SHOULD JUST LET THEM IN, SIT BACK, AND WATCH THEM CREATE FORTUNE 500 COMPANIES.
    WITHOUT DWELLING ON THE MULTIPLE FALLACIES IMBEDDED IN THE PAPER’S THESIS, IT’S WORTH POINTING OUT THAT THE LISTS OF IMMIGRANTS AND THE CHILDREN OF IMMIGRANTS WHO FOUNDED FORTUNE 500 COMPANIES ARE, WITH PRECIOUS FEW EXCEPTIONS, LITANIES OF WHITE GUYS: NORDICS, ALPINES, SLAVS, AND ASHKENAZI (MOSTLY GERMAN) JEWS.
    THREE-FOURTHS OF THE WAY THROUGH THE IMMIGRANT LIST, WE REACH SOMEONE FROM ZAMBIA, AFRICA . . . BUT UNFORTUNATELY, HE’S DR. KIRAN PATEL, THE CAMBRIDGE-EDUCATED, ENGLISH-SPEAKER OF ARYAN-INDIAN AND ASIAN ETHNICITY WHO FOUNDED THE INSURANCE GIANT WELLCARE HEALTH PLANS. (ALAS, THE GREAT AFRICAN IMMIGRANT ENTREPRENEUR IS STILL AT LARGE.) TO NO ONE’S SURPRISE, AN EAST-ASIAN IMMIGRANT FROM TAIWAN FOUNDED YAHOO!
    “DIVERSITY” DOESN’T IMPROVE MUCH WHEN MOVING TO THE LIST OF FORTUNE 500 COMPANIES WITH CHILD-OF-IMMIGRANT FOUNDERS. HILARIOUSLY, THE WASP ELITIST HENRY FORD IS INCLUDED AMONG THE HUDDLED MASSES!

  320. anti soak June 20, 2012 at 3:16 am #

    THE LONE STAND-OUT ON THIS SECOND LIST IS STEVE JOBS, BY DINT OF HAS SYRIAN FATHER, ABDUL FATTAH “JOHN” JANDALI.
    MUCH AS “THE ‘NEW AMERICAN’ FORTUNE 500” REVEALS THE REMARKABLE PREDICTIVE POWER OF RACE, THE STORY OF JOBS’S FATHER, AND THE SYRIAN SIDE OF HIS FAMILY, BESPEAK THE IMPORTANCE OF HEREDITY.
    FROM WHAT WE KNOW, JOBS’S GRANDFATHER WAS NOT SIMPLY A REMARKABLE ARAB, BUT SOMETHING CLOSE TO A POSTMODERN MEDIEVAL LORD. ACCORDING JANDALI,
    a.
    WITHOUT DWELLING ON THE MULTIPLE FALLACIES IMBEDDED IN THE PAPER’S THESIS, IT’S WORTH POINTING OUT THAT THE LISTS OF IMMIGRANTS AND THE CHILDREN OF IMMIGRANTS WHO FOUNDED FORTUNE 500 COMPANIES ARE, WITH PRECIOUS FEW EXCEPTIONS, LITANIES OF WHITE GUYS: NORDICS, ALPINES, SLAVS, AND ASHKENAZI (MOSTLY GERMAN) JEWS.
    THREE-FOURTHS OF THE WAY THROUGH THE IMMIGRANT LIST, WE REACH SOMEONE FROM ZAMBIA, AFRICA . . . BUT UNFORTUNATELY, HE’S DR. KIRAN PATEL, THE CAMBRIDGE-EDUCATED, ENGLISH-SPEAKER OF ARYAN-INDIAN AND ASIAN ETHNICITY WHO FOUNDED THE INSURANCE GIANT WELLCARE HEALTH PLANS. (ALAS, THE GREAT AFRICAN IMMIGRANT ENTREPRENEUR IS STILL AT LARGE.) TO NO ONE’S SURPRISE, AN EAST-ASIAN IMMIGRANT FROM TAIWAN FOUNDED YAHOO!
    “DIVERSITY” DOESN’T IMPROVE MUCH WHEN MOVING TO THE LIST OF FORTUNE 500 COMPANIES WITH CHILD-OF-IMMIGRANT FOUNDERS. HILARIOUSLY, THE WASP ELITIST HENRY FORD IS INCLUDED AMONG THE HUDDLED MASSES!
    THE LONE STAND-OUT ON THIS SECOND LIST IS STEVE JOBS, BY DINT OF HAS SYRIAN FATHER, ABDUL FATTAH “JOHN” JANDALI.

    ………………….
    ////////////////////////////////////////

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  321. anti soak June 20, 2012 at 3:17 am #

    ……………………………………………………………………………………………………
    MUCH AS “THE ‘NEW AMERICAN’ FORTUNE 500” REVEALS THE REMARKABLE PREDICTIVE POWER OF RACE, THE STORY OF JOBS’S FATHER, AND THE SYRIAN SIDE OF HIS FAMILY, BESPEAK THE IMPORTANCE OF HEREDITY.
    FROM WHAT WE KNOW, JOBS’S GRANDFATHER WAS NOT SIMPLY A REMARKABLE ARAB, BUT SOMETHING CLOSE TO A POSTMODERN MEDIEVAL LORD. ACCORDING JANDALI,
    MY FATHER WAS A SELF-MADE MILLIONAIRE WHO OWNED EXTENSIVE AREAS OF LAND WHICH INCLUDED ENTIRE VILLAGES . . . . HE HAD A STRONG PERSONALITY AND, IN CONTRAST TO OTHER PARENTS IN OUR COUNTRY, MY FATHER DID NOT REVEAL HIS FEELINGS TOWARDS US, BUT I KNEW THAT HE LOVED ME.
    “40 PERCENT OF THE 2010 FORTUNE 500 COMPANIES WERE FOUNDED BY IMMIGRANTS OR THEIR CHILDREN.”
    WHAT CAN I SAY, WE HAVE AN ELITE THAT HATE US. WE ALL KNOW THAT BY NOW. BUT WHAT’S INTERESTING IS THAT THEY ALMOST BECOME A CLICHE OF THEMSELVES: MONEY IS ALL THAT MATTERS. NO MENTION, FOR EXAMPLE OF THE LOWERING ETHICAL STANDARDS. HOW ABOUT WE DO A SIMILAR ‘STAT ‘ ON CHEATS, FRAUDS AND VIOLATIONS OF SEC RULES.. MY GUESS IS THE PERCENTAGE WOULD BE OVER 40.
    “PARTNERSHIP FOR A NEW AMERICAN ECONOMY”
    IS THAT LIKE THE PROJECT OF A NEW AMERICAN CENTURY? YEAH THAT’S WORKED OUT GREAT.
    JANDALI HIMSELF EMIGRATED TO AMERICA, EARNED A DOCTORATE AT THE UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN (WHERE HE MET SCHIEBLE), AND THEN BECAME PROFESSOR OF POLITICAL SCIENCE AT THE UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN. (THE FUTURE STEVE JOBS WAS BORN, AND PUT UP FOR ADOPTION, WHILE JANDALI WAS A GRADUATE STUDENT.) DISSATISFIED WITH ACADEMIA, JANDALI LATER BECAME A SUCCESSFUL BUSINESSMAN.,
    SO MUCH FOR IMMIGRATION AND RACE

    …………………………………………

  322. anti soak June 20, 2012 at 3:26 am #

    FIFY = ?

  323. Vlad Krandz June 20, 2012 at 3:47 am #

    And in order to have the State be a higher power, it has to invalidate God. No Atheism – no Communism. But I concede that not all Atheists are Communists by any means. But I can’t help but notice the new Atheism is very militant and obviously wants to persecute Christianity at the very least. You can’t miss that.

  324. anti soak June 20, 2012 at 3:52 am #

    Seeger, who with Ethel and Julius-es kids [ the Meeropols] are doing what they can to help Mumias kid, and other kids of ‘political prisoners’ thru
    the Meeropols ‘charity’.
    Too bad the Rosenbergs were exposed as spys by one of their own. And the technology they gave to Stalins flunkies help kill Americans.

  325. Vlad Krandz June 20, 2012 at 3:53 am #

    What about being Universal? What did your Professor Ignatiev say, “Treason to Whiteness is loyalty to humanity”. So could we not also say that Treason to Judaism is loyalty to humanity too? Makes sense – otherwise you’re a hypocrite for asking us to do what you wont.
    Don’t involve me – I never believed it or pretended to either.

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  326. anti soak June 20, 2012 at 3:54 am #

    The most evil thing to him is Religion, yet the most important is the tribalism that Judaism generated.

  327. Vlad Krandz June 20, 2012 at 4:06 am #

    One is reminded of Jethro’s riddle: It’s not your mother, it’s not your father, it’s not your brother or your sister – who is it? It’s Miss Jane.
    Just so, letting in more aliens is a giant non sequitir. They only benefit the Republicans when they are illegal and can be exploited. So if we legalize this lot, we must bring in more to exploit. Legalizing everyone ruins the game. That’s why in the end, it’s in the Democrats favor. They are always gaining new voters as the illegals become legal. The Rebublicans cannot match the Democrats in pandering. So the Republican Paradise was strictly time limited and economic as opposed to political. If trends continue as they are, they will lose all power at the Federal Level very soon. By changing his tune on the illegals, Romney is throwing the election.

  328. Vlad Krandz June 20, 2012 at 4:11 am #

    There’s talk about Obama pardoning Pollard, the Jewish spy who caused so much death and destruction to American Intelligence. No doubt Bill is for it – as is Alan Dershowitz.
    What do you think of Spiritualism? Souls or Shells?

  329. 3o2z6y767jk June 20, 2012 at 4:52 am #

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  330. 1m4x9r716he June 20, 2012 at 4:59 am #

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  331. 6qcmujzni1q0 June 20, 2012 at 6:41 am #

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  332. 6qcmujzni1q0 June 20, 2012 at 6:44 am #

    ??????????? ??Topshop?Whistles?Reiss?Oasis?New Look?Marks&Spencer?Primark?Dorothy Pwrkins?Warehouse?Miss Selfridge?????????????????,????1.85?????Zara?H&M?Mango?Urban Outfitters?????????????????????????????????????
    ????????

  333. Widespreadpanic7 June 20, 2012 at 7:23 am #

    ” … they stole our mitts.” — JHK
    Pretty goddam funny line, Jim. I almost fell out of my chair.
    Just found out the Mormons are building an oversized Temple down on a piece of vacant land on the main drag thru town. The people who run this place were compelled to approve it — their theme was ‘religious diversity’. They all had smiles on their faces … nervous smiles like they had just swallowed something unpleasant but weren’t quite sure what they had swallowed.
    Well, I guess its better than the massive Mosque being built this minute up in Windsor. I wonder if there will be daily call to prayer … in that town founded by strict Calvinists from Scrooby, England 375 years ago? Time will tell.
    Well, 98d F today. Time to bust open the Sam Adams and grill up some chicken.
    –WSP7

  334. ozone June 20, 2012 at 8:45 am #

    Whoa, Dude!
    Tres strange. I wonder what the council members were promised (and is it written down somewhere)?
    Food and protection after collapse? Retention of their seats? Cuddling with LDS wifes and daughters? Etc.?
    Somewhere, on a bountiful and perfect planet, far, far away (where all the good believers go), Johnny Smiff is cackling maniacally.
    “Well, 98d F today. Time to bust open the Sam Adams and grill up some chicken.” -WSP
    Sounds like as good a plan as any. Fire that sucker up and break out the brews!
    I’ll be in the basement [mixin’ up the medicine].
    BTW, my credo is: “A cross for every infidel”. (In the old-school, Roman sense, of course.)

  335. ozone June 20, 2012 at 9:01 am #

    “Ozone, how come you never get banned?” -Prog[gy]
    I couldn’t tell you. Dunno, clean livin’; correct non-victim thinkin’; accepting of outcomes, slow and plodding planning; JHK just likes me, darn it?
    One could be excused for large dollops of skepticism concerning any of those. ;o)
    Really though, I’ve had one “banning” by 403 error m’self. Got around it by shutting down the modem for 15 minutes, but apparently, that doesn’t work for many.
    When I sign in to comment, I don’t click on “remember password”, or “never remember password” (thus leaving a larger cookie-print); I click the “not now” option. How hard is it to type it in?
    I’m kind of doubting that has a lot to do with it either. I’m also on Firefox, and it’s set to erase all history and cookies when signing out. Would that make any difference? Have to ask somebody tech-savvy.

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  336. ozone June 20, 2012 at 9:07 am #

    Guess if there were a comment LENGTH boundary, that might help with the Spiderism, but he’d just slap up more postings to make up for it.
    Pathetic.

  337. ozone June 20, 2012 at 9:12 am #

    Too bad those Calvinists weren’t from Scroogy, England; that would be juuuuust right. ;o)
    (Goldilocksian)

  338. Widespreadpanic7 June 20, 2012 at 9:19 am #

    Hey Ozone I spent some time in N Utah awhile back and you’re 100% right about those LDS mothers and daughters. Sweet doesn’t quite describe it. I’d never seen anything like it. And having never been to Sweden, I’d never seen so many blonds.
    Maybe this Temple ain’t such a bad thing after all.
    –WSP7

  339. BeingThere June 20, 2012 at 9:59 am #

    Ron Paul collects social security
    Interview on Morning Joe reveals that Ron Paul who makes $174000.00 per year as a congressman, also collects social security.
    Funny, that. 
    The  subject came up when he was describing how he is trying to get young people off paying into the fund.
    On the one hand he claims that he will save ss by cutting the fat off it and ending foreign war escapades to save money for a country on the road to bankruptcy.
    Caught in his own hypocrisy, his protestations to his interviewers felt hollow and cranky.—Yep these nuts want everything for themselves and nothing for you–isn’t that special!
    PS. suggested reading is Craig Paul Roberts last two posts. Silent Spring for US? and Writing Off the Elderly.

  340. BeantownBill June 20, 2012 at 10:20 am #

    I don’t agree with militant atheism because when many of them open themselves up to public discourse, they come across as arrogant.I don’t like that.
    This type of atheism has been around for a long time. Remember Madelyn (sp?) Murray O’Hare?
    But militant atheism aside, I still think organized religion has historically been very bad for humanity.

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  341. welles June 20, 2012 at 10:54 am #

    Ron Paul collects social security
    Interview on Morning Joe reveals that Ron Paul who makes $174000.00 per year as a congressman, also collects social security.
    Funny, that.

    Nothing wrong with that, long as he just gets back what he paid into it.
    He is 100% correct in that SS is a de facto ponzi scheme with no basis in actuarial or investment reality.
    peace peaceniks

  342. ghyfodgz June 20, 2012 at 11:25 am #

                                           

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    ??:170/90(M) ??? good!~??????????~[11.17]??:????:18?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????[10.26]??:????:175/95(L) junyiganb ??~[10.26]??:????:170/90(M)?299? lalaflyya

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  344. 3o2z6y767jk June 20, 2012 at 11:50 am #

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  345. 9w8c8e287wf June 20, 2012 at 12:14 pm #

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  346. Vlad Krandz June 20, 2012 at 12:32 pm #

    Like other corrupt politicians before him, Obama has invoked executive privledge to avoid admitting involvement in the disastrous fast and furious program.
    They tried to frame the American People and take away our 2nd Ammendment Rights and it has backfired on them.

  347. Vlad Krandz June 20, 2012 at 12:38 pm #

    Yeah, Mormonism was supposed to be a Religion for White People and yeah, White People can be beautiful and create beautiful things when left alone.
    But don’t worry, Mormonism has opened the door the Third World and all those Blondes will be gone in 2 more generations of so. Many beautiful things require isolation to exist you see. There is no question about that. The only real question is why do it then.

  348. Rhino June 20, 2012 at 12:38 pm #

    The consequences would be heinous if we lock ourselves into the legal/conceptual straightjacket of believing that a bet (via some derivative) between two major banks like JPMorgan and Goldman Sachs that JPM “loses” MUST be paid off ie that it has legal validity.
    Or alternatively that if JPM doesn’t pay Goldman that Goldman has a cause of action against JPM.
    Or that a catastrophic loss via a derivative bet that creates a giant liability on the booKs of JPM in favor of Goldman, wiping out JPM’s capital actually really DOES create a giant liability that really DOES wipe out its capital.
    To all of the above I would say bosh. What we’ve done is to prop up this teetering popsicle stick contraption of interlocking bets by shoveling trillions at it.
    What I’m saying is to hell with this make believe world that only exists in electronic databases and the minds of lawyers, bankers, traders and accountants. There is no need for anyone to go along with this nightmare that is upending everyone’s life just so that Jamie Dimon and his ilk can earn kings’ ransom in compensation.
    As you say start with credit default swaps. From this day on we proclaim that under no circumstances can a bondholder buy insurance against default and under no circumstance can a company sell such insurance. It would require that a buyer of bonds live with the risk of default ie they have to do their fucking homework on a bond issuer.
    It would also avoid the ludicrous spectacle of the federal govt firehousing billions into AIG so it can pay Goldman off because a bond that Goldman DOESN’T own went into default.
    And we could go on. Like forbidding companies like Goldman from speculating in oil futures by making a law stating that nobody will make a futures contract in oil (or a currency or wheat or some other commodity) unless there is the intent to make or take delivery of the oil or wheat or currency or whatever.
    OK Kyooshtik, I know what you’re going to say, that by allowing such activities we make the market for such financial derivatives wide and deep and liquid such that companies that need such contracts in their day to day business can get them. No doubt you’re right. No doubt also that such traders ie speculators inflict distortions in such markets by making prices diverge a great deal from what they would have been had prices been based on supply and demand that are grounded in actual production and consumption.
    Anyway to make a long story short just rip the fucking mess out by the roots. We’ve already had heinous consequences and if we keep propping up this system we’ll get more.

  349. welles June 20, 2012 at 12:56 pm #

    I’m seeing building construction and public utility projects going gangbusters where I live in South America. There is a buzz of activity. People are happy. The economy is thriving. The nation has purpose and the future looks bright.
    This is just what I see here in Brazil too, an economy that’s hot and humming.
    And families are very, very strong support systems.
    We don’t have any of your Yanqui malaise, and the world just keeps getting better.
    I think JHK needs to move to Europe, where the inhabitants love being depressed & self-analyzing their misery.
    peace peaceniks
    PS yet another 40-pound pig slated for roasting this Saturday, we gots plenny ‘o good food ‘n drink fo’ yas, y’all c’mon down now, y’alls welcome any time now, hea’?

  350. anti soak June 20, 2012 at 1:02 pm #

    ‘What do you think of Spiritualism? Souls or Shells?’
    Communicating with the Astral World?
    Not into it, myself. I dont see Spirits. And as you know with ‘The New Age Movement’, theres lotsa hucksters. See ‘stop sylvia browne’ for a laugh.
    Shes made millions, best selling books, 100% bogus.
    John Edwards is similar. Kevin Ryerson is de-bunked in a great book called ‘Idiot Proof’.

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  351. 3q9o7k045di June 20, 2012 at 1:03 pm #

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  352. Buck Stud June 20, 2012 at 1:24 pm #

    Yeah, Mormonism was supposed to be a Religion for White People and yeah, White People can be beautiful and create beautiful things when left alone.

    Some of the best painters around today hail from Utah and many of them are BYU,Utah and Utah State graduates. It’s very evident that traditional training has not been flushed down the toilet by these institutions because the painters render beautifully along with incorporating wonderful abstract underpinnings. Below are examples from two painters:
    http://www.howardmandville.com/Pages/Artist%20pages/fryer.html
    http://www.workmanstudio.com/recent_work

  353. Buck Stud June 20, 2012 at 1:42 pm #

    I’m surprised that alternative medicine doesn’t get more play around here considering that many feel societal collapse is imminent.
    For my money, seated meditation is one of the real things of value a person can give themselves. And if they become adept at learning how to scan the body with the mind and direct and concentrate the breath to any place within the body for the purpose of dissolving blockages, they can basically give themselves a acupuncture treatment of sorts.
    A few weeks ago I wrenched my back and I was stooped and in spasm. But when I simply sat and directed my mind and breath into the injury resulting in a gentle pulsating of energy within the injury my spasm and stoop vanished – for a few hours before returning. Eventually, the time without spasm lengthened and simply vanished. But there is no doubt that placing the intent of the mind and breath within an injury and harnessing the universal rhythm of life – expansion and contraction via the breath – that one develops the ability to dissolve coagulation/blockage as a result of injury or other afflictions.
    It sounds very esoteric – the Taoist Water Method of meditation- but it is actually very logical and methodical – once you learn how and are willing to put in the practice time.

  354. asoka.. June 20, 2012 at 2:05 pm #

    Isn’t there something in economics called the law of supply and demand? When something is scarce the price goes up, doesn’t it?
    NEW YORK — The price of oil dropped almost 3 percent Wednesday. Benchmark U.S. crude fell by $2.47 to $81.56 per barrel in New York.
    Doesn’t peak oil mean supply is lessening? Doesn’t peak oil mean we on the CCC downside? Shouldn’t oil prices be going up?

  355. asoka.. June 20, 2012 at 2:11 pm #

    It sounds very esoteric…
    Physiological changes related to meditation have been confirmed by studies published in the scientific literature. With the confirmation of science, more people might now be open to experimenting with meditation.
    Thanks for the post, Buck Stud.

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  356. anti soak June 20, 2012 at 2:58 pm #

    Do you know Bruce Frantzis?
    I went to Chiropractors for years, none of them did much ‘questioning me’. But they adjusted me.
    It never fixed the problem. A PT in asking me questions saw my problem was a ‘too firm’ mattress and VIOLA, new matress , no back problems.
    That being said, Chinese are using Viagra. They are
    practical. Not so concerned with ‘purity’ or long term dangers from meds, I guess.
    I dont have much interest in Taoist ‘stuff’. Never worked for me.

  357. Vlad Krandz June 20, 2012 at 3:00 pm #

    Even if not consciously acknowledged, some things offer some people tremendous amounts of meaning – just like relgion does. For you, (and for many), a rocket ship defying gravity its jets in full burn. For hard core PC Weiros – pictures of White and Black babies playing together or worse – White Women cradleing their adopted Black Babies. Partcularly odious is Charlize Theron. She’s from South Africa and should know better.

  358. welles June 20, 2012 at 3:05 pm #

    sylvia browne
    That woman needs a good whuppin’. And have her tongue tied.
    For kicks see the video of her walking into an audience to ‘read’ their future. She started talking to a man about how he’d change jobs etc.
    The man grew visibly red-faced with shyness, and the woman beside him had to explain that he was German and didn’t speak any English!
    Guess her psychic ability didn’t recognize this impediment.
    Sylvia Brown got angry and started talking very loud to cover up her boner.
    Regarding Iceland, yes they are prosecuting bankers, I have read the legal texts. At the same time, they are raising taxes on the public to pay for the bankers’ bad loans, in order to save face vis-a-vis foreign institutions. Not sure about their economy recovering nicely, will check with my contacts there.
    peace peaceniks

  359. Vlad Krandz June 20, 2012 at 3:37 pm #

    Is this your way of admitting that I’m right and that beautiful Blonde Women should stay away from Black and Hispanic Men in order to perpetuate their precious genes? Welcome aboard, mate! After all, we need more women who look like they just stepped out of a pre-Raphelite painting, not less.

  360. turkle June 20, 2012 at 3:40 pm #

    [Scottie voice]
    She can’t take much more this Chinese spam, Jim!

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  361. Vlad Krandz June 20, 2012 at 3:42 pm #

    The Taoist system has many safeguards in relation to the Kundalini – unlike the Tibetan and the Hindoo. A friend of mine went to a Tumo Workshop in L.A. One of the students had to withdraw – he couldn’t get warm. Evidently he had activated the lunar or cold current. This can be serious: the Leader of the Hari Bols used to wear a Parka all year long in Hawaii. An of course, Gopi Krishna nearly toasted himself with the solar.

  362. San Jose Mom 51 June 20, 2012 at 3:47 pm #

    As a recovering Mormon born in Salt Lake City, I can attest to your noticing lots of blondes in the area. I went to BYU for three years (before I married Mr. Mormon, husband #1,whom I put through medical school in Texas.) Truly, there are more attractive woman at that school than just about anywhere. No hideous tattoos, piercings, sloppy clothes and funky hair. Everyday was a good hair day for me in Utah because of the lack of humidity.
    I just came back from a trip to Utah’s national parks last week…Arches N.P, Canyonlands N.P., Dead Horse Point S.P., Capitol Reef N.P., Goblin Valley S.P., Kodachrome Basin S.P., Cedar Breaks N. Monument, and Zion N.P. Went on some fantastic hikes and took lots of pictures for artistic inspiration. It was wonderful to be in places with no grafitti and no trash. I think Germans and French have a great appreciation for Utah because half of the folks we saw in these uncrowded places spoke German. (Exception, Zion was a bit crowded.)
    Jen

  363. turkle June 20, 2012 at 3:51 pm #

    Oh, boo hoo. Cry me a river. The Christians don’t like it when people shoot down their idiotic opinions. But that’s not persecution. It doesn’t even rate. Try burning people at the stake or putting hot pokers in their eyes, you know, things that loving Christians actually did to people who dared mock or question their stupid holy book. That’s some real persecution.
    And the reason Dawkins felt obliged to jump into the ring and write a book about it was because half-baked Intelligent Designers and Bible Thumpers were constantly attacking him and the validity of his scientific ideas, as if these rubes had any idea how evolution works much less a valid soapbox from which to criticize it. Not being one to roll over and play dead atheist, he decided to fire back. Again, BFD. He’s hurt no one, except maybe a few religious nabobs whose feelings he hurt.
    On the other hand, try publicly questioning the truth of the Koran in a militantly Islamic country, for a taste of how Christians used to roll. Thank God (yeah ironic I know) that most of these people of the cross have jettisoned the vast majority of the weird and barbaric teachings of the Bible (you know, death for adultery and stuff like that), and we’re mostly left with “Jesus loves us,” which is insipid but at least mostly harmless.

  364. turkle June 20, 2012 at 3:52 pm #

    Why are you so concerned with who breeds with who you little pervert? Its none of your god damn business. (Yeah, I like to take his name in vain. Sorry.)

  365. asoka.. June 20, 2012 at 4:32 pm #

    (Yeah, I like to take his name in vain. Sorry.)
    Turkle, you needn’t apologize. Like everything else about Christianity that phrase makes little sense.
    You didn’t “take” the name. We all still have it. Look: god damn drone bombs. See, I have it as well.
    “In vain” … I never understood that either, I mean it wasn’t in vain, because you did make a point by invoking the goddamn name by saying god damn.
    Then there is the “his name” part. Don’t get me started on the sexist anthropomorphizing of god.

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  366. Buck Stud June 20, 2012 at 5:04 pm #

    I think what I’m saying is that Mormons are a very competent and competitive group of people – in general. I mention the competitive aspect because a very high level basketball player once told me the Utah teams were always the toughest he played against, if not necessarily the most talented.
    And there is something very distinct among a lot of the Utah painters, a certain type of recognizable aesthetic if you will that requires a ton of hard work, talent, and diligence to accomplish.
    And as far as Republicans go – which isn’t very far in my estimation – the Utah flock seems to atleast have some sentiment towards nature and the environment.

  367. anti soak June 20, 2012 at 5:20 pm #

    Ya want a laugh?
    Go to
    Stop Sylvia Browne
    stopsylvia.com/
    StopSylviaBrowne.com – Examining and debunking the claims of purported psychic Sylvia Browne.
    And read his story of going to her Vegas talk.
    His grandpas name was ‘Odin’ [!!!] so he asks her
    ‘What was my grandpas name’ SB, ‘Harold’!!!!
    I have met Readers that can ‘get names, accurately, and much more’.

  368. anti soak June 20, 2012 at 5:28 pm #

    JHK in THE called SLC ‘the most car dependent in the USA’.

  369. Vlad Krandz June 20, 2012 at 6:00 pm #

    Why do people care about what kind of car they have? Or preserving heirloom seeds and the many different variety of apples? How much more we should care about our own genetic lineages. Your question is equal parts ignorance and mendacity. And your Atheism is a Cult, a murderous one – and you can’t dissprove it.

  370. Vlad Krandz June 20, 2012 at 6:37 pm #

    Good artile about this subject. No miscegenation used to be the law. As the old African Proverb puts it, “Don’t tear down a fence until you know why it was built”.
    http://amren.com/news/2012/06/race-purists-are-they-slightly-nuts/

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  371. San Jose Mom 51 June 20, 2012 at 6:38 pm #

    The traffic on I-15 in the SLC metro area is horrible. Because of that, it actually makes sense to ride the light rail which runs mostly north to south along the Wasatch Range. The light rail is packed with riders avoiding the horror of the freeways.
    The urban aesthetics in Utah are below average–any capitalist’s heart would beat proud to see the Walmarts, Targets, and Costcos dotting the landscape.
    That being said, back in about 1979 the prophet of the Mormon Church, Spencer Kimball, stopped plans to build a huge network of portable nukes all over the state. The U.S. government was going to move the actual missiles between a 1000 silos on rail road tracks so that if the Soviets planned on a pre-emptive strike, trying to take out all the nukes in Utah would be like playing wack-a-mole. Spencer Kimball was also the guy who allowed blacks to get the preisthood.
    Referring to what someone said about the Mormon Church and race–there is an exception to their usual “lagging-edge of social justice” stance–the Native Americans. Brigham Young believed folks should feed the Indians–not fight them.
    (Nevertheless, the wacked a bunch of Arkansas folks heading through Utah on their way to California–the infamous “Mountain Meadows Massacre.”)
    When I was at BYU, it was very competitive to get accepted. Yet they let just about any semi-qualified Native American into the school with free tuition and dorm subsedies. I don’t know if this is still the norm.

  372. messianicdruid June 20, 2012 at 7:18 pm #

    “Don’t get me started on the sexist anthropomorphizing of god.”
    g – o – d is not a name. Its like saying, “Man, I hate punks.” If you were not talking to a “man” then you would be using the term “in vain” ie: vainly, as in – its useless to say “man” when no man is involved {you are not appealing to any man to witness or approve your statement. Just say, “I hate punks” without “dressing up” the statement. “Anything more than this, cometh of evil”.

  373. turkle June 20, 2012 at 7:33 pm #

    Slavery used to be legal, too, as did dueling. I’m supposing you don’t support either of those rather outmoded activities. If you do, well, I’m left rather speechless.
    I don’t see how it provides any justification for some act if they “used to do it that way.” It isn’t 1841 anymore. Times change and so do laws, usually for good reasons. Me so sorry. The ship has sailed. The fence is torn down. Yet again, you are living in the distant past, morally speaking.
    You worry about your own genetic lineage, big guy. You don’t have any right to tell anyone else who they can and can’t breed with, either morally or legally, and it isn’t any of your business, anyways. Get it, dingus? You don’t have a leg to stand on.
    “And your Atheism is a Cult, a murderous one”
    Blah blah blah. The more histrionic you get, the more I know I’m winning the argument. Let’s talk about a real murderous religious cult, like Islam, the world’s biggest death cult, or perhaps Christianity during the Inquisition. Or those mad dog Bible thumpers who kill abortion doctors. That’s the real deal. Disbelief in non-existent entities does not require one to drink any kind of mystic Koolaid. We leave that to you religious nutters.

  374. turkle June 20, 2012 at 7:38 pm #

    Also, Vlad, I’m not sure why anyone is supposed to take moral pronouncements seriously from someone who is a known sympathizer and apologist for Nazis, an avowed extreme racist, and a self-admitted misogynist. If you want to see some really terrible moral character flaws, all you need to do is look in the mirror. Why don’t you worry about the log in your eye before you worry about the speck in someone else’s? (I think that’s from the Bible, isn’t it?).

  375. Vlad Krandz June 20, 2012 at 7:59 pm #

    There’s more to life than art – and that’s using the word lightly. I don’t mind that Republicans don’t call heaps of twisted metal art. I hate them for important reasons like being hypocrites and race traitiors.

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  376. anti soak June 20, 2012 at 8:01 pm #

    You heard about their sacred scripture [Once translated it Twas an EGYPTIAN BURIAL MANUAL, NOT ANGELIC TRANSFER TO BY]???
    And BY, in his former career, was [no joke]
    a Snake Oil Salesman at Carnivals and Circuses!!!
    [like ‘literally’]

  377. anti soak June 20, 2012 at 8:04 pm #

    His heroes are Gandhi, Schweitzer, Lincoln.
    All ‘extreme’ racists.
    Kids dont get taught that anymore[or maybe such verities were never taught].

  378. Vlad Krandz June 20, 2012 at 8:09 pm #

    Whites are persecuted by the Goverment and attacked openly by Blacks and you don’t care a bit. Yet you consider yourself the epitome of morality. You are a dirty little savage who should be exiled to inner Detroit. All y’all should be sent to places like that – Liberal Leper Colonies. You get to leave when you verbally renounce and abjure your previous beliefs in front of a jury of Whites and Blacks.
    The Blacks on such future juries will be paid but for Whites it will be considered a both a privledge and a duty to serve. The rehabilitation of Whites will be essential to the State.

  379. Vlad Krandz June 20, 2012 at 8:11 pm #

    Communism killed over a hundred million in the 20th Century. Don’t you know anything?

  380. turkle June 20, 2012 at 8:12 pm #

    Oh, yeah, add a raging persecution complex to the mix, too. What a zesty brew you got going there.

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  381. San Jose Mom 51 June 20, 2012 at 8:21 pm #

    Sorry Soak,
    Brigham Young did not do the “translating” of supposed ancient texts–that was Joseph Smith.
    So Joseph Smith was more full of baloney than Brigham Young. My personal opinion is that Joseph Smith was probably bi-polar and if was alive today, he would be highly medicated.
    The “good news” about Brigham Young is that he was a good organizer and leader. He was also pragmatic (and horny–so many wives!).

  382. messianicdruid June 20, 2012 at 8:30 pm #

    “The Christians don’t like it when people shoot down their idiotic opinions.”
    It would be nice if you would take a few seconds to see if your shot hit the target before pulling the trigger again and again, or just walking off, as you usually do when someone says, “Hey Turk, you missed!”. You just think you are hitting the target.
    Let me hold up a target, and see if you can hit it.

  383. turkle June 20, 2012 at 8:40 pm #

    What does that have to do with anything, bird brain? Can you go one week without playing the “Commie card”?
    Communism is distinct from atheism. The latter is not at all dependent on the former, though perhaps the reverse is not true, so I’ll conceded that small point, that Communists do tend to disavow traditional religious belief. Some Communists were/are atheists, but not all, or even most, atheists are Communists, and certainly not in America. Comprende? Communism is more like a secular religion than an extension of atheist philosophy, if such a thing can even be said to exist. Communists have just substituted their particular kind of religion for the traditional ones, complete with a future promised land. Most well-known, Western atheists (Dawkins, Hitchens, etc.) consider themselves secular Humanists, a philosophy which is in no way supportive of political Marxism. If the two were so closely related, wouldn’t you think these people would display their Commie credentials openly and proudly? But, they’re not, so they don’t.
    Furthermore, Communism is not alone in causing murderous political havoc in the 20th century. You also need to add fascism to that list, in Japan, Italy, and Germany, which was directly opposed to Communism, and now there’s political Islam, causing all kinds of problems throughout the world.
    Another thing you need to realize is that religious political philosophies and the “divine kings” held sway when there were far fewer people on the planet. So, in terms of percentages of the population affected, they caused more havoc. Simply investigate any of the European religious wars of the 15 or 1600’s to convince yourself of this, like the Thirty Years War, which it is said killed 1/3 of the population of Germany, or look at what happened during the Crusades.
    So, ultimately, I’m not sure what point you’re trying to prove. I consider both Communist and religious political philosophies as undesirable and overall harmful.
    Now for soaky…
    “Gandhi, Schweitzer, Lincoln”
    I have no idea who the middle person even is.
    For his time, Lincoln was not at all an “extreme” racist. He ended up as an abolitionist, so there’s no way you can make that argument. It is also likely that even though he initially did not identify as such, this was likely more of a concession (kind of a lie in other words) to try and keep the Union together without a major war.
    Gandhi…I really don’t know. Care to elaborate or provide some quotes? Again, your little word droppings leave a lot to be desired. Perhaps you can write more than a few cryptic sentences so I actually have something more substantial to debate. As it is, you’re completely unconvincing.

  384. turkle June 20, 2012 at 8:44 pm #

    The problem is that you are so embedded in the religious mindset that you can’t even recognize when someone makes a convincing argument that does “hit the target.” It goes in one ear and out the other. What exactly would convince you that my position is right? Think about it. I’d say pretty much nothing will convince you, from what I can gather, because your mind is made up. And you can’t follow a reasonable line of argument. So, your point is completely moot.
    Also, people like you are pretty good at moving the target. That’s what religious people do when their arguments fall apart, which they always do.
    “Oh, God isn’t there? Well, what about over here?!”

  385. turkle June 20, 2012 at 8:56 pm #

    And the other problem arguing with you is that you’re not even defending traditional Christian doctrine, which is my primary point of discussion and disagreement. You have your own nutty, unorthodox interpretation of everything (a cult of one), as far as I can tell, so I can’t even see the target. Everything is some big cryptic mystery that you fail to explain or explicate fully that I’m somehow supposed to magically understand what you really think via intellectual osmosis, I guess, which, again, kind of makes it difficult to even have a coherent discussion on this topic.
    Why don’t you tell me exactly what you do believe? What’s your opinion about supernatural all-powerful gods in the sky and existence or non-existence thereof? What do you think about the afterlife? Does it exist or do we just become worm food? What is your opinion/views on traditional Christianity, Judaism, and Islam and their holy books? etc. Lay it on me, messy.
    Once I find out exactly where the target is located, then I can at least take proper aim, even if you never will admit that I hit it.

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  386. turkle June 20, 2012 at 9:04 pm #

    Oh, and BTW, I don’t feel the need to check in with you every time I make a post on this topic. Because you’re a partisan in the other direction, an arrogant religious wing nut who thinks he’s got some kind of secret key to the inner workings of the universe. But, in reality, you’re just as clueless as the rest of the cultists. Thus, you’re completely unable to make an objective assessment as to whether or not I made an effective argument, so I won’t bother to ask you whether I did or not.
    How’s that for hitting the target?

  387. Vlad Krandz June 20, 2012 at 9:13 pm #

    Yes, all 3 good men too! Racists build nations and commie race mixers try to tear them down.

  388. Vlad Krandz June 20, 2012 at 9:19 pm #

    Lincoln wanted the Blacks sent back to Africa and knew well they were inferior to Whites. Schweitzer is a famous humanitarian who worked for decades in a hospitl in the Congo as a Doctor. He has been written out of history because of his views. He didn’t worship Black like all “good” Whites now must.
    Yes there are individual Atheists who are not Communists. But as Movements they are fellow travelers and may well be again.

  389. charliefoxtrot June 20, 2012 at 9:21 pm #

    hey, Z0N3…it occurs to me to ask a sheepish question…do yoiu have any “proxies”, or ‘sock puppetry’, if you will…? feel free to ignore or answer the query; it does occur to me that that might complimicate things inneratchair…so to speak…

  390. Vlad Krandz June 20, 2012 at 9:44 pm #

    The Prophets warn us to flee from Babylon before the destruction. Is this America or Israel? Or is there any difference anymore? Jeremiah says it will be destroyed in a day – a couple of high altitude nuclear strikes would disable America and utlimately cause more death than if dozens of cities were hit at ground level.
    Considering the number of abortions performed here and how we have exported this way of death around the world, we would seem to fit the bill.

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  391. turkle June 20, 2012 at 10:32 pm #

    Seriously, dude? *face palm*
    It boggles the mind how someone so evidently articulate and (dare I admit it) intelligent in his own kind of way can be drawn in by such a pile of religious horse shit. Does it smell like roses to you?

  392. turkle June 20, 2012 at 10:34 pm #

    The idea that there is a divine being up there punishing us for our collective sins has got to be one of the most revolting ever put forward by any religion, and it is a pretty strong field.

  393. messianicdruid June 20, 2012 at 11:05 pm #

    “Thus, you’re completely unable to make an objective assessment as to whether or not I made an effective argument, so I won’t bother to ask you whether I did or not.”
    Yes, you will just ASSUME my assessment is subjective while presuming that yours is objective, simply because you have convinced yourself you are intelligent, logical, reasonable and know WTF you are talking about {then denounce me for not believing the things you are arguing against}. Way to go, nimrod.

  394. messianicdruid June 20, 2012 at 11:15 pm #

    Mystery {hidden = why some don’t see it} Babylon is a system of deception allowed to hold sway over those in rebellion to teach all the folly of an unlimited number of g – o – d – s {rulemakers} in opposition to one another {chaos}. The way of peace they have not known. Denominationalism is simply the “christian” version[s] of this delusion.

  395. asoka.. June 20, 2012 at 11:21 pm #

    Racists build nations and commie race mixers try to tear them down.
    ==============
    We “commies” be winnin’, too!
    You fightin’ against history and against love.
    You gonna lose both those fights, Vlad, because you can’t stop people of different skin shades from falling in love.

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  396. ozone June 21, 2012 at 12:00 am #

    Charlie,
    In a word: Nope.
    I just drop by when convenient (ain’t that mod’ren of me?) throw out a couple links that might be halfway germane; crack a couple half-assed japes, then just check back in (when convenient) and check the tomfoolery.
    That’s pretty much the limit of my involvement.
    Hope that clears that up, and thanks fer askin’.
    :o)

  397. xport June 21, 2012 at 12:00 am #

    Has anyone bothered to figured out what all the Chinese spam on this blog is all about?
    They are telling us that we are all full of shit, and they will kick our ass any time, and any where they want to do it.

  398. asoka.. June 21, 2012 at 12:03 am #

    Undenominational Christianity is just as sick as both still believe in this nonsense:
    1) an invisible sky god exists,
    2) This invisible being had a “son”
    3) God’s “son” (i.e., busybody) was both human and divine,
    4) this human/divine hybrid loudmouth died for our sins (WTF!),
    5) unless you believe all the crap in the preceding points, you cannot be saved from … [wait for it] … death.

  399. xport June 21, 2012 at 12:14 am #

    IT is beyond time to believe in a higher power.
    The life force that includes all of reality at the moment is the driving force. Father and Mother are all important, as is every offspring. Get on with it, that is why you are here.

  400. xport June 21, 2012 at 12:33 am #

    I went to the public library today, and looked around for something that had some meaning for today.
    I saw the book by Obama, a best seller, in fact it was a book that I bought and read, and believed that here was a man that had a new vision and could be a true leader into the next century. It was called “the audacity of hope”, and when I read this book, I thought that we had a true man that would run for public office.
    Well, he did get himself elected, and now you see what we have. Audacious puppet for the oligarchy.
    So what is the next best lie that we should embrace?
    In the next election I will raise my middle finger in salute of the lairs that run the world.

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  401. messianicdruid June 21, 2012 at 12:37 am #

    “Why don’t you tell me exactly what you do believe?”
    “Exactly” would take so long that it would be out-of-date by the time I finished.
    We are all in different states of development. Everything is exactly as it is supposed to be at any given time. There is a tension built into creation that many sense and react against because it is unjust, while it remains unresolved. Those with little or no faith can see no resolution, and tend to despise those who do.
    God created opposition to teach us to appreciate Himself. This could not be accomplished without something to be compared to. So He allows some to become rule-makers to illustrate what sin {law – less – ness 1 John 3:4} looks and feels like, and we can consider its outcome.

  402. messianicdruid June 21, 2012 at 12:40 am #

    http://www.gods-kingdom-ministries.org/books/creations/index.cfm

  403. asoka.. June 21, 2012 at 12:49 am #

    5) unless you believe all the crap in the preceding points, you cannot be saved from … [wait for it] … death.
    Asoka, even Christians who believe all the points you listed do not really trust in their god.
    Supposedly Christians are assured of their victory over death, yet the USA military is full of Christians who don’t want to die, who ignore that Jesus said “love your enemies.”
    Christian soldiers will fight, and they will kill others, to avoid dying. Instead of being happy about dying, assured of being with their god, they violate the commandment “thou shalt not kill” and ignore “turn the other cheek.” In other words, they don’t follow the nonviolent example of Jesus.
    Those supposed Christian soldiers are not trusting in their god. They are trusting in their M16A2 rifles, their M-4 combat assault rifles, etc. … they do not welcome death, they do not trust in God, in spite of what their coins say.

  404. xport June 21, 2012 at 12:49 am #

    Just think about the impact of every person silently stepping outside of ones residence and raising the middle finger on election day, a non vote to say fuck you, we will find a better way without you.

  405. asoka.. June 21, 2012 at 1:16 am #

    If you believe in Jesus and His church, then simply be a Christian, a disciple of the Lord Jesus Christ. Find or start a local church that is determined to be nothing more than a church of Christ!
    In other words, as Chairman Mao Zedong said: “Let a hundred flowers blossom” … or in this case, let hundreds of Christian denominations flourish so they can bicker and fight among one another about almost everything, instead of following the simple central teaching of Jesus: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”
    True Christians would love Muslim fanatics, not try to kill them.
    True Christians would love Al Qaida, not try to kill them.
    True Christians would love the Taliban, not try to kill them.
    But I say unto you, Love your enemies {terrorists}, bless them that curse you {Taliban}, do good to them that hate you {Al Qaida}, and pray for them which despitefully use you {terrorists}, and persecute you {send planes into the Twin Towers} Matthew 5:44
    I doubt there is a single “Christian” on CFN who would practice such radical love as Jesus teaches.

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  406. anti soak June 21, 2012 at 1:30 am #

    see old posts from 1-3 years ago.
    Spider and Old 69…we suspect its s/he.
    ‘trillions of skyscapers, free salaries’ etc

  407. asoka.. June 21, 2012 at 1:33 am #

    Police Chief Bill Lee fired over mishandling of the Trayvon Martin case. Meanwhile, Trayvon Martin continues to be dead.

  408. anti soak June 21, 2012 at 1:36 am #

    Oops….but….The ‘burial manual’ was translated in the 1980s.
    Yes I confused the 2!!! I am an outsider to Mormonism.

  409. anti soak June 21, 2012 at 1:48 am #

    GOOGLE IS YR FRIEND.
    Check ‘Protest over Gandhi statue in South Africa’
    [a place Gandhi went to].
    See Vlads post about Al S.
    Are you lying or just uninformed? Abe wants to send the blacks back to their ancestral homeland.

  410. xport June 21, 2012 at 1:49 am #

    AMEN Brothers and Sisters, and much thanks to James Howard Kunstler for this forum so that I can say to you: Love, peace and harmony. It is a wonderful way of venting our trivial problems and finding a way to express our anxieties as we go forward in an ever changing and scary world. Things will reach a head, and pop, just like a pimple on the face of humanity, and the circle will close, then reform, and things will go on. Roll with it. May all of your problems be local and may you find a way to love your neighbors and solve those problems.
    Money is the the last thing that you need to worry about. Think about that.

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  411. asoka.. June 21, 2012 at 1:59 am #

    The push into the Arctic comes amid a major resurgence of a U.S. oil industry that once appeared stuck in long-term decline. Within the past five years, new technologies exploiting oil fields in North Dakota, Texas and other states have contributed to a 15 percent rise in U.S. production since 2008.
    Producing oil in the offshore Arctic could provide another significant boost.
    Federal estimates of the potential oil reserves in the Beaufort and Chukchi seas off Alaska’s North Slope indicate there could be 25 billion barrels, an amount greater than the crude produced at the giant Prudhoe Bay onshore field during the past 30 years.

  412. turkle June 21, 2012 at 2:06 am #

    Oh, great. More “wisdom” just spewed out of messydingus’s overactive religion gland. PASS. (Try not to get any on you.)

  413. turkle June 21, 2012 at 2:11 am #

    And what is with this ridiculous presumption of yours that everything you say is like some mystic, profound, Yoda-like pronouncement on the inner workings of the universe?
    I mean, really, if anyone knows what is really “going on” it ain’t you brother.

  414. anti soak June 21, 2012 at 2:11 am #

    Did you know Obamas Mama was a ‘Betty Page’ type gal?
    And I think Davis is Obamas dad.
    From ‘angry white dude’:
    Racy photos of Barack Obama’s mother, Ann Dunham, have recently surfaced in vintage fetish and bondage magazines. The photos, taken at Frank Marshall Davis’ house in Honolulu, appeared in Bizarre Life, Exotique, Secret Pleasures, and Battling Babes. They help illustrate the intimate relationship between Dunham and Davis.
    “My father was from Kenya, he grew up herding goats,” Barack Obama told the cheering crowds. Did Obama build his political career upon a fairy tale? Was Obama misdirecting Americans away from a deeply disturbing family background and a Marxist political foundation?

  415. anti soak June 21, 2012 at 2:15 am #

    In some circles he is known as ‘Saint Ash Tray Von’

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  416. turkle June 21, 2012 at 2:24 am #

    Was there supposed to be a coherent thought in there? If so, I missed it.

  417. xport June 21, 2012 at 2:34 am #

    Can we find a common ground? Is there a dias for a peaceful discussion. Does humanity even have a rightful place at the table? Have we already overshot our load?

  418. driften June 21, 2012 at 9:16 am #

    Fat lazy Americans will start fighting back when their children start dying. That’s how bad it has to get before the pain of doing something is exceeded by the pain of doing nothing… lots of heads will need to roll, better get those tumbrils ready.

  419. welles June 21, 2012 at 10:09 am #

    God created opposition to teach us to appreciate Himself. This could not be accomplished without something to be compared to. So He allows some to become rule-makers to illustrate what sin {law – less – ness 1 John 3:4} looks and feels like, and we can consider its outcome.
    Wow, i’m so glad i found someone who knows exactly what GOD ‘thinks’. It’s all so easy when you have the annotated simpleton’s guide to the universe (bible), you don’t eeeeeeven need to think anymore.
    You are sorely mistaken if you think the bible hasn’t been edited/mistranslated/put together according to what one group of folks thought ought to be in it vs. another group of people who don’t include the same material.
    In other words, your source is so corrupt it should be thrown out….
    btw i’m hearing that jesus was not a carpenter, a mistranslation means it is very likely he was a stone mason.
    peace peaceniks

  420. dale June 21, 2012 at 10:31 am #

    June “Goon From the Moon” Awards Out!
    Yes, you’ve been waiting for them, now you will find out who made the most ridiculous and idiotic (no small feat) posts on CFN for the month.
    This month’s “body of work” award goes to – whom else – the avatar known as “Vlad”. Vlad manages, on a virtual non-stop basis, to supply us with no end of mirth or aggravation, depending on your POV. Laid end to end Vlad’s posts would reach from South Central L.A. to Harlem and back, taking us on a virtual Mr. Toad’s Wild Ride through the snake infested swamp of stunted human potential. Daily, we are left to wonder, which ethnic or sexual group Vlad will blame for his life failures today? Whose fault is it exactly, when he stubs his toe, or forgets to unzip before taking a leak? On the spectrum of self-awareness, can our little martinet recognize himself in a mirror?
    Yes, truly a body of work to be proud of…..Vlad gets our special trophy, a pair of gold painted military shoulder boards adorned with flashing LED lights, to warn others of his approach. Here you are….. http://compare.ebay.com/like/190138851173?var=lv&ltyp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar&_lwgsi=y&cbt=y
    Our silver medal goes to the avatar “dale”, whose creation of a new way to spell the name of a small crustacean, has completely defied the minimum concept of intelligible written English. According to Vlad, he is “hated” no…..”loathed” by all, but continues to foist his weak efforts at humor on the rest of is, no matter how deadly serious we insist we are. Can this – beast, traitor, scumbag, clown – perhaps even low enough to be called “liberal”, not recognize wisdom when placed directly before his bloodshot virtual eyes? You have to wonder if this guy can even spell asswhole?
    …..and our “Goon From the Moon” award winner this month is none other that the big cheese himself, “Papa Doom”, James H. Kunstler. Papa has kept us entertained over the years with his prophecies of technological end-times. Sadly, all such predictions have come a cropper thus far, causing original adherents such as “Dr. Doom” and “Nudge” to lose heart, when 2012 didn’t produce waves of mass starvation. They’ve had to move on to sites where no one is around to remind them of the sad normality of day-to-day life.
    Papa gets the nod this month for this brilliant bit of conjecture “and by the time war does occur, it may be fought with crude swords and helmets forged out of the scavenged detritus of a bygone age.” Now that’s the kind of hyperbole we’ve come to know and love!

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  421. dale June 21, 2012 at 10:46 am #

    I love it when you go on your anti-religious rants, it’s quite inspiring really, such energy and enthusiasm, almost like a faith.

  422. welles June 21, 2012 at 11:07 am #

    I love it when you go on your anti-religious rants, it’s quite inspiring really, such energy and enthusiasm, almost like a faith.
    Quite wrong, faith is belief in something, in the absence of any discernable fact. Criticism is the provision of discernable facts which demonstrably lead to a verifiable conclusion.
    So your supposed clever retort collapses on itself.
    peace peaceniks

  423. Barfy Barf June 21, 2012 at 11:18 am #

    There is a piece in the Bible that states “Love your enemy.” I feel that the translators over the centuries didn’t translate this correctly. To me, Jesus simply said “don’t hate” your enemy. We don’t have to love terrorists, we don’t have to like them, we don’t have to have any feelings at all for them, but don’t hate them, or we become like them. We become the thing we hate. So, Jesus taught people how to be truly objective, distant in fact, but seeing the truth. Didn’t Paul say something like “I see you all from afar.”? He saw through his eyes, not with his eyes if you know what I am trying to say. We can see evil as evil and we should do so. We may need to kill people who want to murder American citizens, but there is a difference between killing and murdering. Another bad translation: Thou Shalt Not Commit Murder — that is the right translation, not “kill” in the place of murder. A big difference.

  424. JonathanSS June 21, 2012 at 11:31 am #

    What’s your point? Increasing worldwide demand would burn through 25 billion barrels in roughly 3 years. Oil drilled on US territory is not “our oil”, as petroleum companies are not nationalized. It’s sold like other commodities, on the open market.
    Instead of sounding like a spokesman for the oil industry, you should be encouraging conservation. Your kind of boosterism is just “kicking the can”.

  425. BeingThere June 21, 2012 at 12:05 pm #

    Please take the time to listen to Catherine Austin Fitts explaining the mechanics of the massive fraud that is the global economy and the destruction of human rights and sovereignty.
    This would interest even Vlad…
    [Created: Friday, October 22nd, 2010 Former Assistant Secretary of Housing under George HW Bush Catherine Austin Fitts blows the whistle on how the financial terrorists have deliberately imploded the US economy and transferred gargantuan amounts of wealth offshore as a means of sacrificing the American middle class. Fitts documents how trillions of dollars went missing from government coffers in the 90?s and how she was personally targeted for exposing the fraud.]
    http://right-wing-politics.info/support/catherine-austin-fitts-the-looting-of-america-full/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

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  426. asoka.. June 21, 2012 at 12:44 pm #

    What’s your point? Increasing worldwide demand would burn through 25 billion barrels in roughly 3 years.
    My point is there will be no collapse due to “peak oil.”
    You say that one discovery will give us three years. In that three years another discovery will be made. Thirty-three such discoveries gives us 99 years. We don’t need 99 years to come up with a viable, sustainable, zero-emission alternative to finite fossil fuels.
    My point is: the whole premise of this blog is in error. A true clusterfuck results in paralysis. If we were in a true clusterfuck, there would be no three-year extensions on fossil fuels because we would not even have the rational ability or political will to get the oil to market.
    The reality which you won’t read on CFN is that humanity is not in a clusterfuck. Humanity is not paralyzed. For example, Brazil has begun building its first nuclear submarine to protect its vast, new offshore oil discoveries. Colombia’s oil production is climbing so fast that it is closing in on Algeria’s and could hit Libya’s prewar levels soon. ExxonMobil is striking new deals in Argentina, which recently heralded its biggest oil discovery since the 1980s.
    Discoveries of large oil fields are being made and adding them all up gives us enough time (more than our lifetimes) to discover alternatives. Your calculation of three years for one find is ingenuous, as if that were the only new source of oil coming online in the world. USA reserves have INCREASED by 15% since Obama took office. Does that sound like peak oil collapse is imminent? What’s your point, JonathanSS?
    Life goes on. No collapse in sight. Sorry, Charlie.

  427. asoka.. June 21, 2012 at 12:54 pm #

    And, for future oil field discoveries, I haven’t even mentioned Russia’s portion of the Arctic Ocean. Or the fact that Venezuela is now considered to have bigger oil reserves than Saudi Arabia, putting it at the top of OPEC’s rankings. If it opened up more to foreign investment, it could tip the scales further in the global south’s direction.
    Venezuela, Argentina, Brazil, Colombia… notice anything there? What do those countries have in common?
    SOUTH AMERICA is where the action is. Life is bristling with positive activity, social and economic development is happening, people are happy (right now, in the present moment), and the future promises to be even better. So much for the idea of “clusterfuck” … people really ought to get out of North America and experience life in Latin America. It’s much better there. I say that having lived there over a decade (becoming fluent in Spanish), and having traveled all over South America.

  428. dale June 21, 2012 at 12:56 pm #

    Quite wrong, faith is belief in something, in the absence of any discernable fact. Criticism is the provision of discernable facts which demonstrably lead to a verifiable conclusion.
    ——————————————
    Really?….and where are the “discernible facts” which prove the absence of a god, or for those who are not “religious” in the traditional sense, a continuum of consciousness?
    Actually, it is possible to have “faith” in the absence of god, many atheists do it routinely. Perhaps it is really a form of “faith” in science, commonly referred to as ‘scientific materialism”, another form of irrational belief. My point was, if you do not believe in god, fine, (neither do I) but it doesn’t require such vociferous denial. Unless, that is, it’s your faith to believe in the absence.
    Don’t give the excuse it’s because you feel we would be so much better off without religion, I see no proof of that. I suspect we would find enough ways to be cruel to each other without.

  429. asoka.. June 21, 2012 at 1:04 pm #

    JonathanSS, I know you have been on CFN long enough to have seen my many posts on conservation, on simple living, on avoiding high energy embodied construction materials (like concrete), on adobe construction techniques, on eating lower on the food chain by becoming vegan, having no children to conserve earth from resource depletion, and on many other topics related to conservation.
    I have never said we should discover more oil to continue our bloated happy motoring lifestyle. I have taken positive steps to change my lifestyle to consume as little as possible, on an income that is so low it is not taxable, so as to not support the permanent wars the USA is engaged in, even if via drone bombers.
    JonathanSS, before you criticize others, are you practicing what you preach? Regarding energy conservation, for example, roughly twenty-five times more energy is required to produce one calorie of beef than to produce one calorie of corn for human consumption.
    Vegans use 90% less energy than the average American. Are you vegan?

  430. Vlad Krandz June 21, 2012 at 1:04 pm #

    And remember, you have nothing against other groups of people – even if they aren’t loyal to your own Country? Or are you too sophisticated to want Countries at all? That the whole world should be one big Amoeba?
    Read Enoch Powell: he lays it out clearly. A million ethnic aliens will have far more power than a million White Americans. Why? Because they have clearly defined needs and interests that will lead them to vote as a bloc. Thus politicians will fall over themselves to ingratiate themselves to them. Now multiply that a hundred times and you see the peril we are in. You want to pretend that you’re above the game, and morally superior to its contestants? You are simply fooling yourself – and being unpleasant in the classic female way.
    Do I have it wrong? You believe in Nations and value America? Then renounce Liberalism and the Democratic Party – they are nothing but covers for Globalism and Communism now. And the Republicans are the same. We need a 3rd Party, one that is Pro-American at the least if not overtly Pro-White.

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  431. harrykrebs June 21, 2012 at 1:06 pm #

    The ruling etite is fully aware of the situation of sustaining the unsustainable. Re: the film “The Veteran” final scenes.

  432. Vlad Krandz June 21, 2012 at 1:09 pm #

    Thank you for admitting what a loathsome excuse for a human being you are. You are growing. Your cat’s vomit was the purest nectar.
    The best comedians mock themselves. That Dean of Ethnic Humor, Don Rickles, always hit his own group the Jews.

  433. welles June 21, 2012 at 1:17 pm #

    and where are the “discernible facts” which prove the absence of a god?
    This is backwards. A god must be deemed to not exist until evidence is provided that it does exist.
    That’s how rational people would approach the matter, I think.
    peace peaceniks

  434. asoka.. June 21, 2012 at 1:20 pm #

    Yes, you have it wrong, Vlad. You already have a political party.
    You remember David Duke? David Duke was KKK Grand Wizard, white nationalist and racist par excellence. He was also a Democrat, but couldn’t get votes with them. So he changed parties.
    In 1989 David Duke was elected to the Louisiana House as a Republican. In 1990 he ran for the US Senate, receiving 44% of the vote against the Democratic incumbent.
    The Republican Party is your party, Vlad. Why are you denying your white nationalist brothers and sisters in the Republican Party?

  435. asoka.. June 21, 2012 at 1:41 pm #

    One more thing, JonathanSS. I have also pointed out many times that the USA military is the most energy wasting organization on the planet.
    Do you join in honoring veterans on the appropriate holidays? Do you honor those who voluntarily joined the most energy wasteful organization on Earth?
    Here is what I suggest: DO NOT THANK THEM FOR THEIR SERVICE. (but don’t spit on them either)
    The Department of “Defense” accounts for more than 93 percent of the U.S. government energy consumption.
    The Department of “Defense” is the largest single consumer of energy in the United States.
    Nigeria, with a population of more than 140 million, consumes as much energy as the U.S. military.
    What peak oil?
    Boo-yah! Semper Fi! NASCAR and apple pie!

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  436. asoka.. June 21, 2012 at 1:56 pm #

    On 1/24/2012 Romney said:
    The answer is self-deportation, which is people decide they can do better by going home because they can’t find work here…
    On 6/21/2012 Romney said:
    Our immigration system should help promote strong families, not keep them apart.

  437. asoka.. June 21, 2012 at 2:20 pm #

    Vlad, in the phrase “VIVA LA RAZA” the word raza does not refer to race in the political sense; in fact, it is just the opposite. It comes from the term “la raza cósmica” (the cosmic race) used in a famous 1925 essay written by late Mexican philosopher, secretary of education, and 1929 presidential candidate, José Vasconcelos.
    Another translation might be “long live the human race,” because if the human race survives, it will be through cooperation and the concept of a universal human destiny, and not through racism, nationalism, or political separatism of any kind.
    And that is our reality, that’s the way the world is headed: increased global communication, increased interracial love, increased miscegenation, increased understanding between the races.
    You cannot stop these trends with hate, or violence, or your fantasy sermons on white nationalism.

  438. BeingThere June 21, 2012 at 2:26 pm #

    Vlad,
    I always feel like I’m banging my head against the wall with you.
    I have said repeatedly that this 2 party hydra are hell bent on the same global agenda of smashing the middle class and national sovereignty in favor of transnationals and banks and mega monopolies. Monsanto and other agri-monopolies even want to control the food you eat which will only add to the healthcare fiasco we are facing.
    I am a classic progressive as would be in existence before this nightmare scenario we’re in now. I have said multiple times on this blog that I am against illegal immigration and the immigration we allow should be representative of all peoples in a controlled fashion as we always had in the past.
    You misconstrue my point which is that this country has been built on the efforts and contributions of many different types of people from around the world, but that doesn’t mean the whole complexion of the nation had to be changed.–That was a decision made by those who have had the desire to lower the middle class here to match that of any third world country so they can make the big money through global exchange. Fitts describes how they take money out of this country and it disappears into private hands.
    If you would take the time to listen to Fitts I think you would find value in her expertise and experience in having been on the inside track of how this was done.
    Why just one new party? Why not more parties that reflect different views?
    Neither party is going to turn this process around-anyone living through this period ought to know–and Clinton who everyone thinks is so great was the worst! He’s the one who “restructured” government to serve the banks!
    Now please listen and I mean all of you when you have the time. (url is on my last post).

  439. welles June 21, 2012 at 2:57 pm #


    SOUTH AMERICA is where the action is. Life is bristling with positive activity, social and economic development is happening, people are happy (right now, in the present moment), and the future promises to be even better. So much for the idea of “clusterfuck” … people really ought to get out of North America and experience life in Latin America.

    Amen, brother. I been here in Brazil for several years, and the damn Yanquis have no idea how sweet it is…
    Every comment you make is right on the money. Clusterphuque is just JHK never getting over teen angst and finding lots of nerdy admirers out on this board…lol
    peace peaceniks
    ps raining tropical cats and dogs as we speak, massive, long thunderclaps, lots of oranges knocked off the trees, think it’s time to machete a coconut and have a Thurston Howell III style drink. We barbequed up 5 pounds of the best beef last night, all 8 of us sharing the same house, everyone pitches, ages 20-80+

  440. messianicdruid June 21, 2012 at 3:04 pm #

    “If you believe in Jesus and His church, then simply be a Christian, a disciple of the Lord Jesus Christ. Find or start a local church that is determined to be nothing more than a church of Christ!
    In other words,…” I’m good with this until you started twisting words into others.

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  441. messianicdruid June 21, 2012 at 3:10 pm #

    “I mean, really, if anyone knows what is really “going on” it ain’t you brother.”
    You asked. I guess we’ll have to wait and see, brother. In the mean time you can remain mezmerized simply by *being* turkle.

  442. messianicdruid June 21, 2012 at 3:21 pm #

    “In other words, your source is so corrupt it should be thrown out…. btw i’m hearing that jesus was not a carpenter”
    The Holy Spirit does not require a medium.
    It says he was the son of a carpenter. He left with his uncle {a tin merchant} after the age of twelve. When he returned the people of Nazareth did not know him.

  443. messianicdruid June 21, 2012 at 3:36 pm #

    “A god must be deemed to not exist until evidence is provided that it does exist.”
    Is this some kind of rule? Who says so? “It” still exists between the time “it” exists and the time the evidence is provided {or recognized}.
    What will you accept as proof? Does He have to jump through hoops for you? Are you willing to ask Him for proof {that you will accept}?
    The real test is not His existance, but His right to require anything of you. If you are a creation you are owned. This is the crux.

  444. asoka.. June 21, 2012 at 3:37 pm #

    MD, what I am saying is to hell with denominational christianity, to hell with nondenominational christianity. Instead of becoming a “christian,” instead of “believing” in Christ, be Christ. No more organized “religion”
    Same goes with Buddhism. Don’t become a Buddhist, don’t follow Buddha, realize your own buddha-nature. Don’t become a Taoist, don’t idolize Lao-Tzu, follow your own Tao. Etc. Etc.

  445. dale June 21, 2012 at 3:38 pm #

    This is backwards. A god must be deemed to not exist until evidence is provided that it does exist.
    That’s how rational people would approach the matter, I think.
    ——————————
    You think wrong. A well known aphorism of science is: “the absence of proof, is not the proof of absence.”
    If you don’t believe in God, that should be due to an “absence of proof” from which you would form the hypothesis that God does not exist. To rant and rave about how sure you are God does not exist is neither scientific nor rational. Science unfortunately is performed by humans, and thus not infrequently subject to the same subjective errors made by theologians. i.e. thinking you have all the answers.
    BTW – people are not primarily rational, anywhere but in their imaginations.

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  446. asoka.. June 21, 2012 at 3:46 pm #

    Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, Mormon, Taoist, or Muslim? Here is what I recommend: BE YOURSELF!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lyn4utzS9hg
    Listen to the lyrics.

  447. messianicdruid June 21, 2012 at 4:09 pm #

    None of us have all the answers. This is why we need each other. Being Christ means being anointed. If you don’t know what being anointed means, you can’t “just do it”.

  448. asoka.. June 21, 2012 at 4:24 pm #

    MD, I can reach the tippy tip tip of my toes. I can “just do it” (with or without Nike shoes), i.e., apply oil to my feet as part of a unique sacred rite that I could create (if I wanted to, which I don’t) for my own consecration.
    I could conjure up my own charismatic anointment, though it is absolutely unnecessary. You can do these things, too, in your own way. No Christ is needed. No supernatural beings are required.
    As Stewart Brand said in 1968, and I listened: “We are as gods and might as well get good at it.”
    There is nothing mystical about consecration. It just means a solemn commitment of your life or your time to some cherished purpose, which could be permaculture, pacifism, or adobe construction.
    With consecration you do tend to “get good at it.”

  449. turkle June 21, 2012 at 4:29 pm #

    I was wondering when you’d weigh in this, dale.
    I don’t think you’ve got it quite right, or at least functionally it is difficult to live your life as if “the absence of proof is not the proof of absence.” In science, there is always a presumption of proof on those proposing the proposition. (How do you like that little bit of alliteration?)
    In other words, if I say, “Hey, dale, there’s a small blue elf sitting on your shoulder right now,” the burden of proof is upon me to actually take some photos of this little entity and show them to you or otherwise provide some sensory-based evidence that this little blue man is not just a figment of my overactive imagination.
    If I then counter by saying, “Prove to me there isn’t a little magical elf sitting on your shoulder right now,” that’s just an absurd inversion of my original, rather shaky positive proposition.
    Similarly, when someone claims that there is a big man Jehovah in the sky watching me at all times with his right hand man Jesus, the burden of proof is on them to prove it or at least provide some tiny shred of positive evidence.
    Now we get into the quandary of proving a negative, i.e. “God does not exist.” I’d simply turn that around into its corresponding logically positive statement, i.e. “God does exist.” which in general can be disproven in all kinds of ways.
    My primary way of doing this would be shooting down all those ways in which God is said to exist and replacing them with their known scientific causes.
    For instance, primitive people seemed to attribute everything in nature to one god or another. But, little by little, this idea lost ground until, today, there is really no place for God within the realm of known reality, aside from say some hand waving about first causes and the like or this creepy omnipotent eyeball watching us at all times.
    How many times does the idea or the entity need to be disproven before one can say with certainty that this fictitious mystical being is actually just made-up? At some point, isn’t it like the boy who cried wolf. After the millionth time, maybe it would be best to resign the outmoded idea of an immortal, omnipotent, divine being as the cause of everything to the intellectual trash bin of history.
    As far as your other proposition, that humans aren’t generally rational, I do agree with you there (hence the popularity of religion). And there is a tendency to overstate human knowledge in the scientific sphere, at least the certainty of it. However, at least science attempts to provide some kind of rational, objective framework to balance out this definite human tendency. The fundamental principles of experimental science, i.e. observation, reproducibility, peer review, etc. are designed so that the subjective aspects are controlled and understood.
    If you think that humans are not capable of being objective to any degree, well, then, I’d have to ask you how has science been able to make such profound discoveries about how the world “really works”? In other words, explain to me how the Germ Theory of Disease, the Standard Model of Physics, etc. are not, in some way, an objective assessment of what is really “out there”? They prove themselves in their usefulness and ability to predict, which suggests we are “on to something.”
    Science does not have all the answers, especially not to the big religious-type nebulous questions. It has a lot of micro-facts in different areas. But when scientists don’t know something, they say so, hence the current mysteries of Dark Matter and Dark Energy. Religion, in my experience, starts with all the answers, which is some kind of basic logical fallacy which I can’t recall the exact name of at the moment.
    Religion and science also seem to respond to different human needs. Like Freud said, religion is based upon the human fear of death. Science seems more based on our innate curiosity about the world around us, even if its conclusions are terrifying and strange.
    As far as me having “faith” in science, I think that’s a bit of a stretch. It is true, one can’t drill down to the Nth degree into every subject matter, so some things must be taken with the presumption that others have done the hard work. But that is pretty much true of every subject. And, also, just because I make a forceful argument doesn’t mean I believe in the idea of proof without evidence. Quite the contrary, actually. I wonder why is it that ultimately all these science vs. religion arguments end up with the religious party trying to convince me that science is just another kind of religion and that my own conclusions are faith-based. It smacks of a sophomoric attempt to neutralize the very real differences between scientific and religious modes of thought.
    If we flip that around, and consider religion as a primitive kind of science, we’d have to conclude that its theories and laws are horribly outmoded and wrong. So why not simply toss it out for the real thing?
    Anyways, been fun. I get a little verbose on this topic, because I consider it a fascinating one. Awaiting your subjective reply.

  450. welles June 21, 2012 at 4:29 pm #

    MD, what I am saying is to hell with denominational christianity, to hell with nondenominational christianity. Instead of becoming a “christian,” instead of “believing” in Christ, be Christ. No more organized “religion”
    Man you are so right on baby, you can hate the ‘bible’ and love/be Yashua.
    peace peaceniks

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  451. asoka.. June 21, 2012 at 4:34 pm #

    same subjective errors made by theologians. i.e. thinking you have all the answers.
    Making subjective errors is fun! I do it all the time, by thinking I have all the answers and then posting them to CFN. It really does not matter one whit whether I am right or wrong as long as I am enjoying the process of making errors. If I’m not mistaken, making errors is how we learn. We should bravely make all the errors we can, learn from them, and then not repeat them. That’s a blast!

  452. asoka.. June 21, 2012 at 4:43 pm #

    you can hate the ‘bible’ and love/be Yashua.
    I do hate the Bible. The Bible is filled with retaliatory violence, sexual perversion, and sexual violence. It is a book not fit for children, a book that induces guilt and suffering. The Bible is full of lies and myths that are damaging to a child’s psyche. People who expose children to the Bible are engaging in child abuse.

  453. asoka.. June 21, 2012 at 4:58 pm #

    An Englishman, a Scot and an Irishman are selling bibles door to door.
    They made a bet who will sell the most in a day.
    At the end of the day they meet up in the pub: the Englishman has sold 2, the Scot sold 3, but the Irishman, who had a terrible stutter, says, “I hhhavveee sssold ssssixty.”
    The other two asked how he did it.
    He says, “Wwwhen Iiiii nnnnnnknock aaaat thththe ddddooor I ssssaaayyy: Do you wwwwwant tto bbbuy a bbbbbible ooooorrr shshshould Iiii jjjust rrrread it tttto yyyyou?”

  454. Zed Leppt In June 21, 2012 at 5:06 pm #

    More good news for the waddling classes – soon you’ll be able to get fresh baked pizza from a vending machine. Called “Let’s Pizza”, the machines have been successful enough in Europe to convince American distibutor A1 Concepts to bring it to the US, starting with an unnamed Florida theme park. The promo video shows a sexy model in a skimpy dress and spiked heels doing a demo in badly dubbed english. Emphasis is placed on “untouched by human hands” and “completely sanitary”, as if that should be the chief concern of a product that comes out of a machine that stores all its raw ingredients in the same box that houses a pizza oven. The video shows the carefully choreographed mechanization process that goes on inside the machine to produce a pizza from scratch in 3 minutes.
    To me, this is another example of amazing ingenuity, creativity, and intelligence squandered on a fundamentally unsound idea. These machines look like they require a great deal of servicing and maintenance such that one has wonder how long their service life is before it’s more economical to discard the whole contraption.
    http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/2012/06/20/155443030/company-bets-robotic-vending-machine-pizza-is-a-winner
    As humans are eliminated from the delivery of products and services, what ingenious new self-serve machines can we look forward to? I’ll offer some ideas for budding inventor-entrepreneurs.
    Denta-Max: All-in-one dental x-ray, teeth cleaning, cavity filling, and tooth extraction station. Just insert credit card in one slot, head in the other, and open wide.
    Genetimat: Automated DNA analysis. Find out if you or a mate comes from healthy genetic stock. Hair, tissue, or fluids accepted. Gattica anyone?
    Prosta-pod: Quick and easy prostate exam. Draw privacy curtain, bend over, and relax as the self guided probe gently examines you without the usual embarassment of a doctor’s office visit.
    Suck-n-Go: A stand up liposuction booth with self-guiding, lipid-seeking, auto-anesthatizing extraction needles that vacuum away the byproduct of too much vending machine pizza.

  455. welles June 21, 2012 at 5:07 pm #

    It says he was the son of a carpenter. He left with his uncle {a tin merchant} after the age of twelve. When he returned the people of Nazareth did not know him.
    You are simply delusional if you cannot research and accept the fact that the bible has been mistranslated in many areas.
    By the way, which single authoritative version of the bible do you use, which one of the 46 or so that exist?
    It says he was the son of a carpenter?
    Read this from Eternity bible College:
    To be clear, we don’t have any record in the New Testament about Jesus working with wood, laying stones, or helping his pop out in the shop. The only references we have to Jesus’ vocation are the two times when He’s called a tekton or the son of a tekton (the word often translated “carpenter”).
    “Is not this the carpenter (tekton), the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon?” (Mark 6:3).
    “Is not this the carpenter’s (tekton) son? Is not his mother called Mary?” (Matt 13:55)
    Now, tekton could refer to a carpenter or a stonemason, but the word simply refers to “one who works with his hands.” If someone wants to describe a carpenter, the phrase they’d use would be “a tekton of wood;” if a mason, then “a tekton of stone.” The absence of either stone or wood as a modifier indicates that the gospel writers didn’t specify which occupation Jesus and his father were engaged in. Mark 6:3 and Matthew 13:55 simply say that they worked with their hands—they were laborers who performed physically demanding and socially shameful jobs.
    ———————————————–
    So, the holy spirit said ‘carpenter’? or ‘stone mason’? Depends on which HUMAN TRANSLATION you prefer/which one made it down thru HUMAN TRADITION til you swallowed it and now it’s unchangeable.
    So if there’s questions about this one small variance, might there be bigger questions about other set-in-stone concepts in the bible?
    Funny the holy spirit has 46 different versions of his true word, how do you reconcile that?
    You can’t of course, you’ll just quote your particular verse you’ve been trained to parrot.
    This is why asoka says ‘be Yashua’ and ‘to hell with religion’.
    Please take a lesson from him.
    peace peaceniks

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  456. welles June 21, 2012 at 5:40 pm #

    You think wrong. A well known aphorism of science is: “the absence of proof, is not the proof of absence.”
    Great. So now we’re left with everything exists.
    Plus, your aphorism is flawed: There is an absence of proof for the flatness of the world. According to the saying, it consequently cannot be ruled out the world is flat. Yet it has been ruled out, incontrovertibly so.
    Thus, in this case the absence of proof IS the proof of absence.
    How can you reconcile this contradiction with your supporting aphorism?
    Ergo your saying is simply wrong.
    Of course this does not hold for every case.
    By the way, since the absence of proof doesn’t mean that certain things don’t exist, I think you should radically alter your behaviour to avoid all the possible dangers for which there is no proof, like drowning under the air, maybe losing an arm because a drop of rain falls on it, making sure you don’t breathe in too much because you might explode. Also, don’t swallow an apple seed because a tree will grow in your stomach.
    After all, “the absence of proof, is not the proof of absence.”
    peace peaceniks

  457. messianicdruid June 21, 2012 at 5:51 pm #

    “Funny the holy spirit has 46 different versions of his true word, how do you reconcile that?”
    No, we have different versions. The Holy Spirit leads us through the maze created by men. My point was that he was a son of a “tekton”, and was absent from the area until he was thirty.
    I understand perfectly that the scriptures have been mangled. But God didn’t abandon it, as some have.

  458. Just Say No June 21, 2012 at 5:55 pm #

    Central banks continue creating money out of thin air. Short term interest rates are near zero. Logic tells us that the price of oil, gold, silver, corn, pork bellies, coffee, and just about every other commodity should be going through the roof, but it’s going the opposite direction. Oil is hovering around $80/bbl, gold is off more than $150 from its highs.
    Instead of inflation, which is what you would expect when so much money is being created, the markets are predicting deflation. Deflation is much more scary than inflation, because you normally only see deflation when you are in a depression.
    The last time we were in this situation it took a major world war to pull us out. This time, because of the proliferation of nuclear weapons, a world war is not an option. Republicans don’t want to tax the 1% who own 80% of all assets, so there isn’t enough revenue to jump start the economy by re-building our crumbling cities, roads, and bridges, and the other 99% simply can’t afford to pay more taxes. We can’t borrow more, because we’re already up to our eyeballs in debt. I pity the next president.

  459. dale June 21, 2012 at 6:03 pm #

    Turkle,
    I agree with much of what you said, so let’s mention a few ways we seem to disagree:
    I don’t believe it’s difficult to “live your life as if the absence of proof is not the proof of absence.” I’m don’t feel required to form a judgment on everything that’s open to question, sometimes it’s better just to rest in an open minded state. A lot of scientists would benefit by keeping that more freshly in mind. At the very least, this keeps one from coming to a lot of erroneous conclusions. Excessive rumination is not necessarily a virtue.
    With respect to “god”, I don’t believe in long bearded men in the sky, but that is not the only way to look at the concept of a higher or more complex reality, it really depends a lot on how you think “you” really exists. You’re a smart guy, consider reading a little about quantum cosmology, something like Hawking’s “The Grand Design”. It will expand your understanding of the possibilities of what existence and “being” mean.
    A little story…..my Buddhist teacher was translating for the Dalai Lama as he toured Anton Zeillinger’s (world’s most renowned experimental physicist) laboratory. As Zeillinger explained quantum mechanics, the Dalai Lama became excited and asked “How can ypu know this, without knowing Madhyamaka theory (Buddhist ontology) Zeillinger replied by asking what Madhyamaka theory was, as the DL explained it, Zeillinger eventually butted in to ask “how can he know this without understanding quantum mechanics” at which they both began to laugh. Now…that would be quite a coincidence if the Buddha just happened to blunder into an understanding of quantum mechanics 2,500 years ago by luck, wouldn’t it? What I’m suggesting is there may be untapped areas of knowledge science isn’t privy too, but which still exist.
    Concerning your elf, I agree. However, there is much empirical evidence concerning the possibility of a continuum of consciousness (near death experiences come to mind). “Science” can’t measure the non-material, and therefore makes the assumption that the “mind” for example, doesn’t exist, or must by a epi-phenomena of something which is material, like the brain. An interesting hypothesis, but one I will remain skeptical of.
    I certainly agree with the value of science, but I think you are overreaching, in terms of what science can prove and what we know, concerning the true nature of reality.

  460. dale June 21, 2012 at 6:07 pm #

    In fact, I’m quite certain you are overreaching in terms of what we know about the true nature of reality.

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  461. welles June 21, 2012 at 6:12 pm #

    The Holy Spirit leads us through the maze created by men
    Look, you said he was the son of a carpenter. Now you say he was the son of a tekton. See how you’ve already backed off of allegedly perfect scripture?
    It’s already been shown that no one’s sure if a tekton is a carpenter or stone mason.
    Do you think you would believe in Jesus if you’d been born in Saudi Arabia? Why aren’t christians popping out in massive numbers anywhere in the world except where it’s the culture to preach christianity?
    Why do Muslim countries produce virtually only Muslims?
    Do you ever ask yourself these questions? The Muslims are just as “saved” as you are, the chief difference is that you know they are damned to hell, and they know you are damned to hell, both courtesy of infallible books provided by god.
    peace peaceniks

  462. dale June 21, 2012 at 6:26 pm #

    Tektons, weren’t they one of the species in the Delta Quadrant in Star Trek?

  463. asoka.. June 21, 2012 at 6:57 pm #

    Tektons work in restaurants, bussing tables, or maybe not exactly that, but it has something to do with plates anyway.

  464. anti soak June 21, 2012 at 8:01 pm #

    WOW, JIM HAS A NEW BOOK

  465. anti soak June 21, 2012 at 8:07 pm #

    Not sure if this is at Youtube.com
    Its at Right -wing-politics.info:
    Friday, October 22nd, 2010 Former Assistant Secretary of Housing under George HW Bush Catherine Austin Fitts blows the whistle on how the financial terrorists have deliberately imploded the US economy and transferred gargantuan amounts of wealth offshore as a means of sacrificing the American middle class.
    Fitts documents how trillions of dollars went missing from government coffers in the 90?s and how she was personally targeted for exposing the fraud

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  466. anti soak June 21, 2012 at 8:10 pm #

    ‘What I’m suggesting is there may be untapped areas of knowledge science isn’t privy too, but which still exist.’
    Why waste yr time on a preachy atheist?
    Do you think hes going to start spending 100$ a day at Tibetan Talks?

  467. anti soak June 21, 2012 at 8:13 pm #

    Particularly what she says at 25 to 30 minutes about Montsanto etc.

  468. anti soak June 21, 2012 at 8:16 pm #

    http://right-wing-politics.info/support/
    catherine-austin-fitts-the-looting-of-america-full/

  469. jackieblue2u June 21, 2012 at 8:36 pm #

    omg i shouldn’t say this but here goes…..
    2 reasons why muslims produce only muslims
    1) the men ‘do’ whatever woman they want, wether she wants or not. wherever and however they want.
    2) ‘they’ also ‘do’ their own family. incest.
    those are a coupl answers.
    i don’t mean to attack you, just this is what came up when i read this.

  470. jackieblue2u June 21, 2012 at 8:52 pm #

    that’s what i’m talkin’ ’bout !
    i jus couldn’t put it into words !

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  471. jackieblue2u June 21, 2012 at 8:57 pm #

    that would be nice !

  472. jackieblue2u June 21, 2012 at 9:09 pm #

    years ago i was in a bar in arizona
    a fight ensued. then a shoot out in the parking
    lot.
    this is not good. my friend says ‘just drink your drink and don’t pay attention.’
    i moved back to ca very soon after that.
    living in the wild wild west.
    it would be nice to see the world, get out of here and experience the US from somewhere else.
    maybe i will get achance, or maybe i will just have to depend on my friends’ stories. that’s ok. i have some intelligent friends.
    but i do hear from several different sources that this country and system, govt. etc. is better than anywhere. 80% think that. they are well off financially. i am not.
    who to believe tho ? i know that it feels worse than it ever has in my lifetme, and alot of corruption, and no trust left, or very little.
    and the races mixing isn’t so great, alot of predjudice here on west coast ca.
    they don’t want to get along with us. for the most part.
    hipanics and whites don’t mix so well all the time.i just hope they ‘just’ shoot eachother,
    as gangs, and not others.
    things men do. don’t understand it.
    do study it tho.
    different cultures. and different agendas i suppose.
    it’s hard to just turn your back, and act as if it isn’t going on. but best to lay low for sure.
    would be nice to live someplace where this isn’t happening.

  473. welles June 21, 2012 at 9:15 pm #

    What the hell are you talking about?
    The question is, why do Muslim countries only – to 95% – produce people of Muslim ‘faith’, while the same holds true of Christian countries?
    The premise is is that it’s culture that determines one’s religion/faith, and not some overshadowing by the holy spirit.
    Read the bloody posts carefully please.
    One’s ‘faith’ in this light is nothing more than cultural indoctrination.
    peace peaceniks

  474. JonathanSS June 21, 2012 at 9:23 pm #

    Man, I question your “it’s all good, no problemo, no CF, no Peak Oil” and you call it criticizing.
    You think your greener than me?:
    1. Vegan; check.
    2. Home power bill last month (natural gas & electric) = $20.
    3. 16,000km on my bicycle per year.
    4. Extensive home garden with drip irrigation.
    5. Strong anti-military stance (although you don’t see much difference here between the Republiclowns and the Dumbocrats).
    How do you travel all over S. America, on foot?

  475. jackieblue2u June 21, 2012 at 9:32 pm #

    sounds very nice.
    a close friend of mine moved to dominican republic. he was from cuba and fled in 56.
    says he sees major problems here in u.s.
    so he got out.
    sails he world. homebase D.R.

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  476. Mike Hunt June 21, 2012 at 10:08 pm #

    Thanks for posting the Catherine Fitts talk. Every word rings true. She didn’t mention it but I’ve heard her also say that 9/11 was yet another way the government transferred a huge amount of wealth from the taxpayer to the corporations. After hearing Catherine Fitts talk any source of information from the mainstream news outlets sounds as hollow as our increasingly hollowed out economy.
    Michael “Mike” Hunt

  477. welles June 21, 2012 at 10:23 pm #

    he moved to the Dominican Republic
    When I started looking for a tax haven in 2000 I had a shortlist of places to move to:
    Dominican Republic
    Malta (joined the EU so goodbye tax haven)
    Panama (almost won out)
    Ended up in Brazil, not quite a tax haven (not at all actually, brutally taxed) but wonderful place, wouldn’t give it up for anything.
    People are much freer than they realize. Just get up and move, do it. There’s wonderful places all over, you’ll cry your eyes out regretting the time you wasted in ‘the best country on earth’.
    peace peaceniks

  478. jim e June 21, 2012 at 11:11 pm #

    Chapeau

  479. jim e June 21, 2012 at 11:24 pm #

    Happy Summer 2012 to all you clusterfuckers!

  480. asoka.. June 22, 2012 at 12:05 am #

    BeingThere, I just spent an hour listening to Catherine Austin Fitts. I was struck by her idea of a solution at 43:14 in the video: “Wall Street, we invite you to grow up…”
    Hello? The solution is Big Government, with major funding of regulators to police Wall Street. Issuing them pretty please invitations to behave themselves is a Republican idea and when Republicans reduced funding for and opposed legislation to control Wall Street, you saw what happens when the “free market” is allowed to operate without government audit.
    At 51:32 she says the problem is “very powerful private interests… some people call it the shadow government, but there are groups behind that”
    In other words, Fitts is a conspiracy theorist, and conveniently her message resonates with the right-wing idea that government is not a solution to our problems.
    It is amazing to me that she can talk for an hour and never mention anyone by name, like Elizabeth Warren for example, or any concrete piece of legislation, or any political party, or come up with any concrete solutions.
    She only talks about a nebulous fascist shadow government over which we have no control. So she is actually demoralizing and paralyzing people. I suspect that is the purpose of prisonplanet/Alex Jones/C2C, etc. to scare people and immobilize them with fear. Could be a false flag operation.
    She seems to think that, by communicating her conspiracy theory people, will rise up and take control at the local level (the 31,000 counties she mentioned). Only once did she mention that she believes in “democracy” and “capitalism” (adding that organized crime is not capitalism).
    But she doesn’t talk about specific actions, specific legislation, specific candidates, specific political parties, specific political platforms, specific ways of empowering communities.
    The impression she leaves is just the opposite. Don’t even try to make change, because the private and shadowy forces arrayed against you are so large you can’t do anything … in other words, she fits in perfectly with the CFN mantra: “we are so fucked!”

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  481. Vlad Krandz June 22, 2012 at 12:27 am #

    What about the Amazon? The world needs that rain forest to remain. How much is Brazil’s boom depend on the destruction of this precious resource.

  482. dale June 22, 2012 at 12:28 am #

    all right dude, we get it….you like Brazil, were happy for ya. Enough already.

  483. Vlad Krandz June 22, 2012 at 12:41 am #

    What exactly do you consider sexual perversion? Do you think that God should have let the men of Sodom gang rape the angels? Are you talking about chidren? Occupy Oakland protested in favor of the rights of “child sex workers”.
    http://pjmedia.com/zombie/2012/06/18/occupy-oakland-protests-in-favor-of-child-sex-trafficking/
    Martin Hayes: You still support the Occupy Movement? Or are you ready to admit that I was right and that they’re a bunch of feral freaks?

  484. asoka.. June 22, 2012 at 12:44 am #

    The Holy Spirit does not require a medium.
    What a bunch of crock! The Holy Spirit most definitely requires a medium, usually in human form.
    That is why the Holy Spirit raped Mary, against her will, to impregnate her so as to produce a human medium, named Jesus.
    Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and God are three-in-one, you know? Kind of like the oil.
    All this is written in the Bible, which as Welles has pointed out is another bunch of crock. You might want to read a couple of academic texts on the Bible:
    The Text of the New Testament: an Introduction to the Critical Editions and to the Theory and Practice of Modern Textual Criticism by Kurt Aland
    A Plain Introduction to the Criticism of the New Testament (2 volumes) by Frederick Henry Ambrose Scrivener
    Good luck with the Holy Spirit! I prefer not to associate with rapists.

  485. anti soak June 22, 2012 at 1:00 am #

    ‘It is amazing to me that she can talk for an hour and never mention anyone by name’
    She said she has been majorly harassed.
    She did say her #1 concern is ‘World food supplies and GMOs’ AND SIDE STEPPED SAYING ‘MONSANTO ETCETC’.
    I say you didnt ‘get’ her 60 minute talk [where she literally mis-used the word literally 20? X] its
    because you cant or wont get it. After all shes so much more knowledgeable than you.
    She offered many practical options, unlike you.

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  486. asoka.. June 22, 2012 at 1:03 am #

    Vlad, I see the mention of sexual perversion got your attention.
    I am talking about the Bible and its dwelling on sexual perversion. Exposing kids to the Bible is to expose children to sexual perversion.

    They have perverted their ways and have forgotten the LORD their God.

    (Jeremiah 3:21)
    Mommy, what does “perverted” mean?

    Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, with a continual lust for more.

    (Ephesians 4:19)
    Daddy, what is sensuality and lust?

    I am afraid that when I come again my God will humble me before you, and I will be grieved over many who have sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual sin and debauchery in which they have indulged.

    (2 Corinthians 12-21)
    Mommy, what is debauchery?

    A woman must not wear men’s clothing, nor a man wear women’s clothing, for the LORD your God detests anyone who does this.

    (Deuteronomy 22:5)
    Daddy, why would a man wear women’s clothing?

    Cursed is the man who has sexual relations with any animal. Then all the people shall say, “Amen!”

    (Deuteronomy 27:21)
    Mommy, what does “sexual relations” mean?

    A woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it; that is a perversion.

    (Leviticus 18:23)
    Daddy, what is a perversion with animals?
    Anyone who has sexual relations with an animal must be put to death.

    (Exodus 22:19)
    Mommy, how does one have sexual relations with an animal?

    Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. For it is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret.

    (Ephesians 5:11-12)
    Daddy, what does fruitless deeds of darkness mean?

    Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you.

    (James 1:21)
    Mommy, what does moral filth mean?

    Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

    (Jude 1:7)
    Daddy, what does sexual immorality mean?

    Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.

    (Romans 1:24)
    Mommy, what does sexual impurity mean?

    Since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.

    (Romans 1:28)
    Daddy, what does depraved mean?

    Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness.

    (Romans 6:13)
    Mommy, what parts of my body are instruments of wickedness?

    Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey–whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

    (Romans 6:16)
    Daddy, do I have to offer myself to someone to obey as a slave?

    Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness.

    (Romans 6:19)
    Mommy, what parts of my body are impure?

    Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy.

    (Romans 13:13)
    Daddy, what are orgies?
    ==================
    As you can see Vlad, the Bible is obsessed with sex, with fornication, and with sexual perversions of all kinds.
    Kids should not be exposed to the filth in the Bible, and adults should not be sharing the Bible and planting ideas of wickedness, impurity, and debauchery in the minds of innocent young children.

  487. asoka.. June 22, 2012 at 1:22 am #

    FORMATTING CORRECTION
    Vlad, I see the mention of sexual perversion got your attention.
    I am talking about the Bible and its dwelling on sexual perversion. Exposing kids to the Bible is to expose children to sexual perversion.

    They have perverted their ways and have forgotten the LORD their God. (Jeremiah 3:21)

    Mommy, what does “perverted” mean?

    Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, with a continual lust for more. (Ephesians 4:19)

    Daddy, what is sensuality and lust?

    I am afraid that when I come again my God will humble me before you, and I will be grieved over many who have sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual sin and debauchery in which they have indulged. (2 Corinthians 12-21)

    Mommy, what is debauchery?

    A woman must not wear men’s clothing, nor a man wear women’s clothing, for the LORD your God detests anyone who does this. (Deuteronomy 22:5)

    Daddy, why would a man wear women’s clothing?

    Cursed is the man who has sexual relations with any animal. Then all the people shall say, “Amen!” (Deuteronomy 27:21)

    Mommy, what does “sexual relations” mean?

    A woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it; that is a perversion. (Leviticus 18:23)

    Daddy, what is a perversion with animals?

    Anyone who has sexual relations with an animal must be put to death. (Exodus 22:19)

    Mommy, how does one have sexual relations with an animal?

    Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. For it is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret. (Ephesians 5:11-12)

    Daddy, what does fruitless deeds of darkness mean?

    Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you. (James 1:21)

    Mommy, what does moral filth mean?

    Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. (Jude 1:7)

    Daddy, what does sexual immorality mean?

    Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. (Romans 1:24)

    Mommy, what does sexual impurity mean?

    Since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. (Romans 1:28)

    Daddy, what does depraved mean?

    Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. (Romans 6:13)

    Mommy, what parts of my body are instruments of wickedness?

    Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey–whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? (Romans 6:16)

    Daddy, do I have to offer myself to someone to obey as a slave?

    Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness.(Romans 6:19)

    Mommy, what parts of my body are impure?

    Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. (Romans 13:13)

    Daddy, what are orgies?
    ==================
    As you can see Vlad, God is a pervert obsessed with sex, and the Bible tells of God’s obsession with carnal relations, with fornication, and with sexual perversions of all kinds.
    Kids should not be exposed to the filth in the Bible, and adults should not be sharing the Bible and planting ideas of wickedness, impurity, transgender dressing, animal sex, and debauchery in the minds of innocent young children.

  488. asoka.. June 22, 2012 at 1:34 am #

    HOW LOW WILL OIL GO?
    SINGAPORE — Oil traded near $79 a barrel Friday in Asia.
    Benchmark oil for August delivery was up 51 cents to $78.71 a barrel in electronic trading on the New York Mercantile Exchange. The contract fell $3.25 to settle at $78.20, the lowest since October, in New York on Thursday.
    PEAK OIL WOULD MEAN DECLINING PRODUCTION AND INCREASING PRICES, BUT THAT’S NOT HAPPENING.

  489. Vlad Krandz June 22, 2012 at 1:36 am #

    Dying people were put in bed with scales. When they died, there was a change in weight. This experiment has been confirmed a number of times.
    But in general you’re right – there’s no possible proof of God exept one’s own experience.

  490. Vlad Krandz June 22, 2012 at 1:41 am #

    So nothing is wrong, all is permitted? You must also believe in the rights of child sex workers I trust?
    Christ said it were better that a man have a mill stone tied around his neck and be cast into the sea than to offend one of these little ones.

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  491. asoka.. June 22, 2012 at 1:43 am #

    According to JHK, the economy is doing well if oil drops below $75/barrel:

    One way of looking at the situation is as follows. Oil priced above $75 begins to squeeze the US economy; oil priced over $85 tends to crush the US economy. You can see where we are now with oil prices closing on Christmas Eve at $78/barrel.

  492. anti soak June 22, 2012 at 1:57 am #

    “racial justice”
    University of Minnesota – Duluth (UMD) is now sponsoring an ad-campaign designed to achieve “racial justice” by raising awareness of
    “white privilege.”
    The project disseminates its message, that “society was setup for us [whites]” and as such is “unfair,” through a campaign of videos, billboards, and lectures.
    The ads feature Caucasians confessing their guilt for the “privilege” that comes along with their fair features.
    [the movie can be seen at ‘angry white dude, if you can bear to see it].
    http://d-umn.campusreform.org/group/blog/
    university-sponsors-campaign-to-undermine-white-privilege
    Word to Duluth, Whites and Asians invented most everything, peanut butter excepted.

  493. asoka.. June 22, 2012 at 2:10 am #

    Humanists believe in law and government, which you reject with your constant berating of {rulemakers}
    The rules {laws} do not allow child pornography or child abuse. They punish it. Government has stiffened penalties against traffickers, extended services for their victims, and required the State Department to impose sanctions on countries with weak anti-trafficking measures.
    The religious (both clergy and lay) practice all kinds of abomination which “offends these little ones” Religions have a rich history in sexual slavery, human trafficking, and child abuse.
    Religious beliefs foster, encourage, and justify abusive behavior. The myriad connections between religion and child abuse led Donald Capps, a past president of the Society for the Scientific Study of Religion, to entitle his presidential address, “Religion and Child Abuse, Perfect Together.”
    There is an indisputable connection between traditional religion and violence against children. Check out the book: Spare the Child: The Religious Roots of Punishment and the Psychological Impact of Physical Abuse.
    Religions are an abomination. Religious clergy prey upon children and turn them into victims, through both physical and psychological terrorism.
    Check out the literature on religion-inspired child abuse:
    Correlates of multiple forms of victimization in religion-related child abuse cases. Journal of Aggression, Maltreatment, and Trauma, 2, 273-295.
    Nelsen, H. M., & Kroliczak, A. (1984). Parental use of the threat “God will punish”: Replication and extension. Journal for Scientific Study of Religion, 23 (3), 267-277.
    Pagelow, M. D., & Johnson, P. (1998). Abuse in the American family: The role of religion. In A. L. Horton & J. A. Williamson (Eds.), Abuse and religion: When praying isn’t enough. (pp. 1-12)
    Wiehe, V. R. (1990). Religious influence on parental attitudes toward the use of corporal punishment. Journal of Family Violence, 5, 173-186.
    Straus, M. (1994). Beating the devil out of them: Corporal punishment in American families. San Francisco: Jossey-Bass
    Yes, those you call the “little ones” are beaten regularly by all manner of religious folk.
    Are you one of them, MessianicDruid, who believes in corporal punishment of children?

  494. asoka.. June 22, 2012 at 2:17 am #

    Sorry, I replied to Vlad and addressed MD in my previous post, perhaps because both are Christians and both want smaller government (or no government?).
    This was addressed to MD: Humanists believe in law and government, which you reject with your constant berating of {rulemakers}

  495. asoka.. June 22, 2012 at 2:25 am #

    Rest is not idleness, and to lie sometimes on the grass under trees on a summer’s day, listening to the murmur of the water, or watching the clouds float across the sky, is by no means a waste of time.
    ~J. Lubbock

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  496. asoka.. June 22, 2012 at 2:32 am #

    Tell the EPA: Ban the pesticide that’s killing bees
    Dear CFN Asoka,
    In the next week, the EPA is expected to issue a decision on the pesticide Clothianidin — which scientists believe is a major factor in this alarming decline in U.S honey bee populations, known as Colony Collapse Disorder.
    Since 2006, one third of U.S honey bee populations have been dying off yearly. One third. Every year. That’s a terrible rate of species destruction on its own, but it’s also a serious threat to our food supply. Honey bees play a crucial role by pollinating 71 of the 100 most common crops, which account for 90% of the world’s food supply.
    Tell the EPA: Ban the pesticide that’s killing bees

  497. k-dog June 22, 2012 at 2:49 am #

    Greetings fellow Catalans. The dog star shines not upon the son of Horus as he walks from the east. The time of Seth has come.

  498. Vlad Krandz June 22, 2012 at 3:38 am #

    Did I mention how sick and crazy you are? The Hindu Yogis also practiced pennance and austerities. A man who doesn’t take himself in hand is nothing but an animal. No, worse since an animal has no choice and simply follows nature. In general they are no more cruel than they have to be. Some of the higher animals are capable of cruelty. The Dolphins will kill porpoises just for fun if they catch them.

  499. Vlad Krandz June 22, 2012 at 4:21 am #

    Yes, Whites did invent most things and Asians the rest. Those actors are scum to pose for this just for money. Total Judases – your spiritual hero. How fitting that he was portrayed as a Black in JC Superstar.
    No more beating around the bush: admit that you support Occupy Oakland in their support of child prostitution – in the best spirit of John Locke.

  500. Vlad Krandz June 22, 2012 at 4:32 am #

    Apologies – that last salvo was meant for Asoka. I was so outraged by his kid Bible trip and when I saw the Duluth outrage, I lost it.
    Surely the great flood was meant to purify the sins of that place? The hater Tim Wise is involved.

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  501. Vlad Krandz June 22, 2012 at 4:43 am #

    You have the great gift of seeming reasonable without always actually being so. You’d make a great attorney. Nor do I doubt your competence or IQ, I merely state that it often serves your preconceptions rather than the Truth.
    More legal immigrants? Why? From all over the world? Again, why? That’s a recipe for disaster. What is your agenda? Tring to make America a microcosm of the World? Thought you WEREN’T a Globalist?
    Like always? Wrong. Only since 1965 when the Jews overcame decades of resistance and opened us up to destruction. Before that it was prejudiced in favor of Europeans. Imagine that, favoing our own people and culture. What next!

  502. Vlad Krandz June 22, 2012 at 4:53 am #

    Still milking the dried up old teat. They want every drop. There’s no business like Shoah Business.
    http://www.courthousenews.com/2012/06/07/47231.htm

  503. BeingThere June 22, 2012 at 7:36 am #

    I never said I wanted more immigrants, I said we should have stuck with our traditional policies and not limited it to third worlders for the low-income model. Another smart idea is to analyze how many people we actually need instead of letting floods of people in.–That would be smart.
    By the way, Paul Craig Roberts, Reagan’s Ass’t Sec of Treasury wrote about our own silent spring and refers to a book by Charles S. Mann 1493:
    [The second wave of slaves were European whites, but the Europeans had no immunity to malaria and yellow fever. By default slavery fell to blacks, many of whom had immunity to malaria and yellow fever. Thus, a black workforce could survive the infected environments and newly created wetlands in which to raise sugarcane, wetlands that were ideal homes for malaria and yellow fever bearing mosquitoes. Mann, of course, is merely reporting, not justifying black or any slavery.
    Mann points out that the lowly mosquito had a large impact on American history. The Mason-Dixon Line roughly splits the East Coast into two zones, the South in which disease carrying mosquitoes were an endemic threat, and the north in which malaria was not a threat. In the South, a person who survived childhood and grew into an adult had acquired immunity. Northerners had no such protection.
    I thought you might find that interesting, I know I did.

  504. BeingThere June 22, 2012 at 7:48 am #

    Asoka,
    I’m not sure I agree with your assessment of Catherine Austin Fitts. I think that the first step toward any action is to recognize the problem. And it is a big problem. Carles Hugh Smith and I had an email discussion re his blog yesterday where I asked what’s the difference between privatized monopolies that the government assists with tax-payer monies and Soviets?–It’s all the same to you and I who have to live in that context.
    CAF may not have all the answers, but she’s describing the situation well. Response government which responds to the cancer instead of feeding it is one step. How do we demand that the government revert to its job which is to not serve the banks, (thanks, Clinton) but instead serve the people?
    How do we revert the orientation of a government interested in sovereignty instead of serving the interests of globalism and transnational domination?—That was a US construct for economic and military hegemony. Our idea–how do we change that?–Identify it —a first step.

  505. charliefoxtrot June 22, 2012 at 10:28 am #

    …kinda goes to my point…n tomfoolery is sure one way o puttin’ it!! and thnx for the links; oft germane and provoking of thought, to say the least…and ever since i asked; i ve been wracking me noodle for an indication of just who might belong to prog…heh heh heh…any impudence in my original question was directed toward georgia, after all- sorry prog; hadn t teased you in a while, and hey hoping you are well…

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  506. Kyooshtik June 22, 2012 at 10:43 am #

    What a bunch of crock!
    ===========
    Asoka, you surprise me at times with your misunderstanding of common expressions. “What a bunch of crock!” is meaningless in the context you used it. It’s equivalent to saying “what a large quantity of earthenware.” What you meant, of course, is “what a crock of shit!” one definition of which, from the Urban Dictionary, appears below.
    crock of shit
    1. An earthenware pot, brimming with smelly excrement.

  507. charliefoxtrot June 22, 2012 at 10:45 am #

    hey dawg; hope things go better n that for you…! read that book when i was a kid; it has stuck with me…always wondered if king read it too; he must ve…good ta see ya gotta go; K-DAWG fer PREZ!!!

  508. Kyooshtik June 22, 2012 at 10:48 am #

    In other words a crock is the container for the shit, not the shit itself.

  509. progress4spam June 22, 2012 at 10:48 am #

    Hey CF,
    Nope, I just do one ID at the time on here.
    I created this one to show antiS how easy it was.
    Then got banned as progress2conserve.
    I have no idea why. Probably random.
    I won’t post anymore this week, chances are.
    There’s hardly any point.
    Since asoka..knows everything about everything.
    Since the Atheists rule the internet.
    Since chinese..spam and asoka..spam rule CFN.
    See you folks later.
    I do wish K-Dog would explain his rather cryptic post, though. I’ve been missing his presidential updates and aspirations.

  510. asoka.. June 22, 2012 at 10:49 am #

    Did I mention how sick and crazy you are?
    Sticks and stones may break my bones, but ad hominem attack not so much.

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  511. Kyooshtik June 22, 2012 at 10:54 am #

    I just do one ID at the time
    =============
    The expression is “one at a time.”

  512. asoka.. June 22, 2012 at 10:55 am #

    Qshtik, you have continually berated me for living in what you refer to as a “mud hut.” You make fun of me for speaking in platitudes about working with the earth. I would think you would consider “bunch of crock” to be an insult. Since you demean earth houses, earthenware should be of equally low esteem.

  513. Kyooshtik June 22, 2012 at 11:05 am #

    Qshtik, you have continually berated me for living in what you refer to as a “mud hut.” You make fun of me for speaking in platitudes about working with the earth. I would think you would consider “bunch of crock” to be an insult. Since you demean earth houses, earthenware should be of equally low esteem. – Asoka
    ============
    A very lame retort.

  514. asoka.. June 22, 2012 at 11:08 am #

    “What a bunch of crock!” is meaningless in the context you used it. It’s equivalent to saying “what a large quantity of earthenware.” What you meant, of course, is “what a crock of shit!”

    Qshtik, I want to be sensitive about your OCD, but in this case it may be impairing your judgement.
    The English language is capable of communication without the explicit use of words due to a concept called “implied meaning.” This may escape you as your OCD may require things be spelled out. You have amply demonstrated your obsession with spelling, and I think it spills over to implied meaning, leading to your questioning of my communicative competence.
    What is important about meaning interpretation, from a pragmatic point of view, is understanding what the writer intends to accomplish, and you demonstrated that my meaning was clear to you. My use of “bunch of crock” left unstated, yet clearly understood, what was in the crock.
    Nice try, Qshtik. Get treatment for your OCD.

  515. Kyooshtik June 22, 2012 at 11:24 am #

    My use of “bunch of crock” left unstated, yet clearly understood, what was in the crock.
    =============
    No, I’m afraid you actually believed (until I informed you otherwise) that the crock was the shit itself, as in “what a bunch of shit!”
    “What a crock” would be the expression that leaves unstated what was in the crock.

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  516. asoka.. June 22, 2012 at 11:47 am #

    The expression “bunch of crock” cannot be considered an error of English language usage, nor can it be considered an improper use of a popular phrase. The expression “bunch of crock” is not a mistake made by Asoka, it is a common expression.
    http://www.buzzfeed.com/chrismenning/a-bunch-of-crock-is-painfully-funny
    http://screenrant.com/bill-murray-talks-ghostbusters-3-schrad-69206/
    Your criticism is off-based and unfounded, perhaps due to lack of exposure to popular expressions. One need not use expressions only you can understand, based upon older expressions you may have heard as a child.

  517. asoka.. June 22, 2012 at 11:49 am #

    CORRECTION
    Your criticism is off-base and unfounded…

  518. Kyooshtik June 22, 2012 at 12:00 pm #

    Nice try, Qshtik. Get treatment for your OCD.
    ==============
    As much as I detested my last boss, I have to admit that I learned a lot of things from him. One of these things relates to your putting me down for precision in usage such as in the use of these expressions:
    . crock of shit
    . one at a time
    This boss (we’ll call him Tom) would become upset when the government auditors did not understand what he was talking about (whether in speech or writing) in regard to some accounting issue. Tom’s claim was that when you’re in the accounting and financial analysis business the expectation is that you know the terminology of the trade and so it is not his responsibility to train the government auditors.
    Likewise with the erudite commenters posting at CFN…it is expected that if common expressions are used they will be accurately stated.

  519. asoka.. June 22, 2012 at 12:23 pm #

    it is expected that if common expressions are used they will be accurately stated.
    Qshtik, in spite of your age, you seem a little green behind the ears. Understanding the expression “bunch of crock” is like a walk in the cake. It’s not rocket surgery.

  520. Vlad Krandz June 22, 2012 at 12:24 pm #

    Asoka actually lives in a crock or giant chamber pot. I’m loving it!
    JPM way up this morning – after being downgraded by Moody’s last night. Does the market have any relation to what’s actually going on?

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  521. Vlad Krandz June 22, 2012 at 12:30 pm #

    Our Traditional Policy was almost virtually all White – poor or not. That’s not to say I agree with all of that either. The massive influx was very hard on Anglo Saxon working men and helped to begin the dilution of American Culture. A viable synthesis was attained after some decades and stuggle though. The same will not be true this time for many reasons.
    Yes, interesting. The most adapted people are the East Asians who live from the Artic to the Tropics.

  522. Rhino June 22, 2012 at 12:31 pm #

    Another smart idea is to analyze how many people we actually need instead of letting floods of people in.–That would be smart. – BT
    It sure would be smart. It would help both the already existing domestic workforce and it would be in the interest of prospective immigrants. But asinine politics gets in the way of anything rational.
    LB I think it was you that asked a while back whether anyone remembers when immigrants were able to go to America and get good paying jobs. I sure as hell do.
    Moving to a new country is an enormously trying experience. I have family that went through the ordeal. But for them it was different times. They had a much easier time finding work. May not have been glamorous work but it was steady and it paid reasonably well. Back then it was largely a matter of showing up at the plant gates and asking nicely. One of my aunts went to a shoe factory in her new neighborhood knowing just a few words of English. She was asked whether she could operate a sewing machine. She couldn’t but she got the job anyway. Wasn’t a fun job but it put food on the table.
    But those days are gone thanks to offshoring. There is no reasonable rationale that I can think of for keeping the immigration floodgates open at the same time that the boys in the C suites are sending every job they can overseas. Hurts both the native born worker and adds enormously to the stress faced by people coming in. Not fair to either.
    The immigrants ask themselves why the hell did they go through all the trouble and expense of making a move when there was no work. Better off staying where they were. And the native born justly ask why is the govt letting people in when there isn’t enough work for the folks already here. Not a recipe for social peace.

  523. asoka.. June 22, 2012 at 12:34 pm #

    Considering that there are $36 Trillion in the world stock market and considering that the average account is probably between $36,000 to $360,000 that would mean there are somewhere between 100 million and 1 billion people actively investing into the market. It’s probably closer to 1 billion.
    So, the answer is no.
    The market doesn’t have any relation to what’s actually going on. 83% of the world’s population are not even invested in the market.

  524. asoka.. June 22, 2012 at 12:42 pm #

    Translation:
    Me and mine made it in; now slam the damn door shut.

  525. IxNoMor June 22, 2012 at 12:44 pm #

    As usual, @$$hat Qsh!t couldn’t even wait 3 hours before reviving *last weeks drivel*. Oh well, time for *phunnies* (that’s *JOKE* 2 U):
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwihG9hckGs

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  526. Kyooshtik June 22, 2012 at 12:47 pm #

    Your criticism is off-based and unfounded
    ============
    I don’t think so.
    Re your links:
    The first, from “bunchofcrock.com” is obviously intended to be comedic. The misstatement of an old expression is deliberate. Conversely, since YOUR shtick is NOT comedy I can’t accept that you cleverly said “bunch of crock” for its comedic effect…like a sort of second derivative of “crock of shit.”
    And re the second link: When asked about the film in an interview with GQ, [Bill] Murray responded:
    It’s all a bunch of crock. It’s a crock.
    It seems that Murray caught his own misstatement and corrected it.
    But enough…lest we bore the other CFNers.

  527. BeingThere June 22, 2012 at 12:52 pm #

    R.,
    That’s my point. When this country was interested in being a showcase as the alternative to communism they provided labor with a real market with unions that protected their salaries and jobs. (Not that Unions aren’t problematic and corrupt in their own ways, but keeping a solid middle class is what democratic nations want.)
    Of course they could provide immigrants willing to work to make a place for themselves in this country.
    They want competition where an environment for building the best mouse trap with real innovations that improve the lives of the majority.
    They want an even playing field where the ideal is that no man stands above the law and or gets special treatment. They want checks and balances which means intelligent regulations representing the rule of law.
    They recognize the need to use the Sherman anti-trust act so as not to create behemoth TBTF monopolies that destroys new ideas and companies in their infancy.
    They encourage leadership where people speak their minds and come up with better alternatives instead of keeping everything status quo so some can get all the pie.
    Words aren’t magic and no matter what cute little spin these criminals use on us when we get the bill we’ll know better.
    As I said to CHS yesterday in an email when he said he imagined the soviet citizenry were told they were free too. I said this:
    Charles,
    In fact I think they too were told about freedom. As in so many of these situations, people know they are being lied to by real experience contrasted to what they are told and then they know. I remember meeting a young Russian guy in Paris many years ago and he said people say what a nice day it is and their counter parties knew what they really mean.

  528. Rhino June 22, 2012 at 12:57 pm #

    Securities markets are creations of the intersection of supply and demand or fear and greed or criminality and stupidity. Take your pick. They used to say that to make a stock trade it takes a crook at one end of the phone and a fool at the other.
    Then add the Fed and other central banks bulldozing in liquidity. Bank balance sheets are like glistening aneurysms, distended and ready to blow.
    They say that Spanish banks are bloated with 600 billion euros of mortgage debt none of which has been written down. Add to that 25% unemployment which is likely headed up to 30%. In that is 50% youth unemployment.
    They say that in Greece folks are withdrawing all the euros they can and sticking them literally in mattresses and under floor boards. I hear that families are moving back to the countryside to farm land that hadn’t been touched in years for the sake of getting enough food. I’ve heard that diabetics aren’t able to get insulin and hospitals are turning away people in dire need of help for lack of resources. I’ve seen news clips of Greek farmers giving away truckloads of food to desperate and hungry people.
    So I’ll ask you, do you think that markets have any relation to what’s going on?
    This is fertile soil for fascism. And we’ve been there recently and I don’t think we need another run at it. BTW I hear that things are heating up in Hungary. The governing regime there is supposedly looking uglier by the day.

  529. IxNoMor June 22, 2012 at 1:01 pm #

    Seriously, I poasted last week?
    Thou artest a douche’.
    T is on a run, and I needed to *know* it? Hahaha, that feeble phone company has jack *SH!T*. Intel/Apple control that tech. T certainly is no where near being valued at more than 8-12 P/E ratio (GET OUT NOW).
    Oh, I *get* it – all that fiber/satellite…

  530. Rhino June 22, 2012 at 1:04 pm #

    Translation:
    Me and mine made it in; now slam the damn door shut. – ASSoka
    These are words that a shill for the 1% would speak.

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  531. mika. June 22, 2012 at 1:08 pm #

    Nothing’s changed, Q is still an horse’s ass.

  532. Kyooshtik June 22, 2012 at 1:18 pm #

    Does the market have any relation to what’s actually going on?
    ===========
    As perverse as the market often seems, the answer to your question is YES. It’s just that the market understands what is going on well in advance of the common man, i.e. you and me.
    Prior to Moody’s release of the Bank downgrades various talking heads were asked on CNBC what they thought the market’s reaction would be. Several, if not all, correctly guessed that there would be little reaction because the “news” was already known (in broad outline, though not in detail) and effectively the reaction on prices was already “in the sauce” or “baked in the cake” as the expression goes. I note that all the major banks except GS are up today.

  533. Rhino June 22, 2012 at 1:31 pm #

    Kyoo, in your estimation, do you think the CEOs or CFOs of banks have a sniff what’s in their balance sheets let alone a bank analyst working for an investment house? Do you think the auditors of these banks have a clue what they’re auditing especially when it comes to line items related to derivatives?

  534. asoka.. June 22, 2012 at 1:38 pm #

    But enough…lest we bore the other CFNers.
    I agree. Nice talking to you. Now go back to being a couch potato in the gravy boat of life.

  535. k-dog June 22, 2012 at 1:42 pm #

    Charlie,
    Only someone who knows the book could have spotted the reference oh fellow Catalan. I was listening to a Chomsky podcast when he remarked the book was the authors greatest work. His comment made me order it and I read it a few weeks ago. It now sticks with me as well and in part explains my silence of the last few weeks. I am now looking at things a bit differently.
    I’m not mentioning the title or author because I don’t care to throw pearls before swine. It is not about being mysterious. I just don’t want to give the graffiti artists a canvas. They outnumber us here.
    As for being PREZ I’m reconsidering. My policies would get me a bullet through the neck from someone who doesn’t want to share toys my first day in.
    One of the bankers men must rule again for Seth walks the night and before any son of Horus can bring light the evil that infests the land must die.
    That’s not going to happen anytime soon.
    ***
    I hope you are still getting good squeeze.

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  536. k-dog June 22, 2012 at 1:51 pm #

    “This is fertile soil for fascism.”
    Isn’t that like a fish wondering where all the water went?

  537. asoka.. June 22, 2012 at 1:52 pm #

    K-dog, have you considered running for local office?
    I am now looking at things a bit differently.
    How so? You are being mysterious by not giving the author and title.

  538. Rhino June 22, 2012 at 1:52 pm #

    As in so many of these situations, people know they are being lied to by real experience contrasted to what they are told and then they know. – BT
    This has been a recurring point of mine also. I know what my eyes and ears are telling me and I’ll believe my own experience before I believe a load of cooked over government statistics or some academic study that purports to prove such and such.
    Facts are stubborn things especially facts as verified by your personal experience. I think that’s what finally did in the little experiment in communism in eastern Europe (though it seems they aren’t quite done with authoritarianism). The communists stopped believing their own bullshit – just one example why did a worker in East Germany have to wait years and years to own a piece of shit Trabant when his counterpart in West Germany could get his mitts on a quality auto years faster? Life in the west was orders of magnitude better than in the communist east and everyone knew it so why did the people in the communist east give up any semblance of freedom? To stand in line for cabbage and potatoes and vodka? Was it fair trade off? The people said no.

  539. Kyooshtik June 22, 2012 at 1:53 pm #

    Now go back to being a couch potato in the gravy boat of life.
    ============
    Okie Dokie, and you can go back to mixing up that new batch of straw and mud.

  540. asoka.. June 22, 2012 at 1:54 pm #

    Communism disguised as state socialism won’t work. Communism as practiced by Jesus has a better chance. But even so there are always traitors and those who want to subvert communism.

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  541. Rhino June 22, 2012 at 1:59 pm #

    Maybe I’m being cynical but it sounds to me like you don’t believe this “builder of mud huts” story.

  542. anti soak June 22, 2012 at 2:01 pm #

    In the words of Buchanan ‘IS A COUNTRY ONLY AN ECONOMY’?
    Kyooshtik, this place is dull w/o you BUT after 3? years of sparring with Asoka, do you tire of rebutting his rebuttals?

  543. Rhino June 22, 2012 at 2:05 pm #

    I say no but the economy is a vital part. People have to eat after all. How do you see it?

  544. Kyooshtik June 22, 2012 at 2:09 pm #

    T certainly is no where near being valued at more than 8-12 P/E ratio (GET OUT NOW).
    =============
    Actually I am thinking about getting out until T settles back into the 30-32 range. Take a look at a 6 mo, 12 mo or 3 year chart of T and you will see that its ascent has been exponential and very much in need of correction (VLAD, TAKE NOTE!).
    Your concern about T’s very high P/E is misplaced. It resulted from a one shot write-down of a failed attempt to take over T-Mobile. The P/E will settle back towards a more normal 16/1 in a year or so.

  545. welles June 22, 2012 at 2:13 pm #

    This is astounding. See this link for more
    revelation:
    http://www.quantumbuddhism.com/topic004.html
    peace peaceniks

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  546. anti soak June 22, 2012 at 2:18 pm #

    She offered Facts, which many people here are not comfortable with, Lord Asokanath the first in the ‘line of denial’.
    Its telling he would attempt to counter her.

  547. Kyooshtik June 22, 2012 at 2:27 pm #

    Maybe I’m being cynical but it sounds to me like you don’t believe this “builder of mud huts” story.
    ===========
    There are many things concerning the Asoka story about which I’m skeptical:
    . that Asoka is black
    . that there’s a Mrs Asoka
    . that Asoka is heterosexual
    . that he hops back and forth from the S.W. USA to S. America several times per year.
    . that he makes 12.25% on his money
    “God” only knows about his alleged mud hut.
    On the other hand, for some reason, I CAN picture him spinning around on the dance floor with the whirling dervishes.

  548. Kyooshtik June 22, 2012 at 2:49 pm #

    do you think the CEOs or CFOs of banks have a sniff what’s in their balance sheets…etc etc
    =============
    It would be pure speculation on my part but having spent a lifetime as an auditor I reject the notion that they’re all a bunch of idiots that haven’t a clue what’s going on in their area of expertise…that it’s all a bunch of crock.

  549. asoka.. June 22, 2012 at 2:52 pm #

    There are many things concerning the Qshtik story about which I’m skeptical:
    . that Qshtik is white
    . that there’s a Mrs Qshtik
    . that Qshtik is heterosexual
    . that Qshtik has ever been in Philadelphia.
    . that Qshtik makes 5% on his money
    . that Qshtik is a native English speaker
    . that Qshtik ever worked as auditor/accountant
    . that Qshtik makes 5% on his money
    . that Qshtik knows how to play pool
    . that Qshtik ever went to St. Joseph’s
    . that Qshtik has ever been to Dubai
    Somehow, though, I can see Qshtik living in the land of Chris Christie, alone in a basement apartment.

  550. welles June 22, 2012 at 3:08 pm #

    You can make 12% on your money in South America
    peace peaceniks

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  551. Rhino June 22, 2012 at 3:10 pm #

    I share your skepticism.

  552. BeingThere June 22, 2012 at 3:16 pm #

    Yes, especially when Asoka brings up Elizabeth Warren who did not get appointed by Obama to run an oversight committee as the banksters and lobbyists said NO! They all said NO to Brooksley Born as well.
    I have no idea what Asoka’s complaint about Catherine Austin Fitts was exactly. The interviewer?
    Alex Jones may not be everybody’s cup of tea and you don’t have to agree with him–he interviews people nobody else will

  553. Kyooshtik June 22, 2012 at 3:18 pm #

    Nothing’s changed, Q is still an horse’s ass.
    ================
    Ohhh noooo…heeez BAAAaaak!!
    If you are going to enunciate the letter h (a consonant) it’s a horse’s ass. But, if for example, you were a Brit with a Cockney accent and you said the word horse’s with a silent h then it would be correct to say or write an ‘orse’s ass.

  554. Rhino June 22, 2012 at 3:26 pm #

    I reject the notion that they’re all a bunch of idiots that haven’t a clue what’s going on in their area of expertise…that it’s all a bunch of crock. – Kyoo
    Maybe its not a bunch of crock. But Wall Street collapsed in a heap. So let’s say they aren’t idiots. What term would you use to describe them?
    My views tend to be rather acidic on these matters and I don’t want to put words in your mouth. But I’m interested in how you see the debacle that’s been unfolding over the past 6 years or so ie since the housing market started to tank.
    Or let’s say the last 15 years or so since the tech/telecom bubble and bust and then the real estate/derivatives bubble and bust.

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  555. Kyooshtik June 22, 2012 at 3:42 pm #

    But even so there are always traitors and those who want to subvert communism.
    ============
    True, and that is precisely the point. Mankind basically wants to live for his own benefit and when push comes to shove is not all that concerned with his fellow man. I know that sounds harsh but what can I say…?
    Feel free to convert the bolded words above to the gender or lack of gender that your political correctness demands of you.

  556. welles June 22, 2012 at 3:45 pm #

    dale, i meant to say the below in response to your recounting of the Dalai Lama and Buddhist Madhyamaka theory. I initially scoffed at your equating quantum mechanics and Madhyamaka theory, then did some research online.
    This is astounding. See this link for more
    revelation:
    http://WWW.QUANTUMBUDDHISM.COM/TOPIC004.HTML
    peace peaceniks

  557. anti soak June 22, 2012 at 3:49 pm #

    She offered Facts, which many people here are not comfortable with, Lord Asokanath the first in the ‘line of denial’.
    Its telling he would attempt to counter her.

  558. BeantownBill June 22, 2012 at 3:52 pm #

    Given that you are one of the more rational posters here, and you were pushing CFNers to listen to CAF’s video, I did so.
    I can tell you she did stir up my paranoia. I’ve felt for 5 years like we’ve been living in a corporaucracy. But for the 35 years before that, I always blamed the government as the entity responsible for America’s issues. I guess I had been short-sighted, because it took the fed’s bailout of the TBTF banks to make me realize I was thinking too narrowly. It gave me quite a chill to realize we were living in a fascist state run by corporate elites rather than by old-fashioned incompetents. I’m not a historian, but I had always thought that classic fascist countries like WW2 Germany and Italy were controlled by the government, with the help of big business.
    Now I’m wondering if it wasn’t the other way around. I don’t think so, but it sure is like that in America. Maybe there’s 3 kinds of fascist states: one in which business and government are equal partners, one in which the government is the prime power, and one in which big business really runs things. Certainly, we are in the latter.
    Anyway, even though the implications in the video were scary, it did validate my own feelings on what’s been going on.
    So thanks for the info.

  559. asoka.. June 22, 2012 at 4:12 pm #

    Facts? Like this:
    At 51:32 she says the problem is “very powerful private interests… some people call it the shadow government, but there are groups behind that”
    She was not offering facts. She did not name any names or make any specific proposals for solutions.
    Elizabeth Warren told all about the shenigans and fraud perpetrated by those in charge of the monetary system. What is Fitts position? Did she support Warren in her battle to establish the United States Consumer Financial Protection Bureau?
    Fitts never says anything specific about where she stands on real issues relating to government control of bank fraud. Did Fitts support the Dodd–Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act?
    All she ever does is say there are shadowy and powerful private forces at work, which of course we can know nothing about.
    What we can do is entertain ourselves with conspiracy theories. Fitts is good at that.

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  560. xport June 22, 2012 at 4:25 pm #

    Wow,
    Up to 560 comments. So what is so funny about Peace, Love and Understanding?
    I picked up a copy of “End of Growth”, what a reality check that book is.
    Some of the best advice that I ever got:
    “Whatever happens, just do not panic”
    I am lucky enough to remember my grandparents, who were born in the 1800’s, they helped raise me and my brothers and sisters. At the time I thought that they were ridiculously backward and slow.
    They prayed the rosary together every night and were very patient with the rowdy grand kids. By that time (1950’s) they were long retired. Pop-pop worked as a night watchman on the construction site for the local school building going up. Grandma cooked from scratch and did the laundry in a new fangled wringer washer, strung a clothes line out back and hung the laundry to dry in the sun. Milk, butter, etc was delivered daily to the back door. Garbage was recycled to pig farmers, who picked it up. Horse drawn hucksters would bring fresh produce to the corner. At night Pop-pop would go to the corner pub and get Grandma a pitcher of beer. They took in borders to help pay the taxes, it was like a bed a breakfast across the street from the Frankford Arsenal in Phila. Pa., so I guess they got some benefits from the Military/Industrial complex. And they found a way to survive and live long and local. The phone even was a party line.
    I guess I am showing my age. Have things really gotten better since then? We need to revisit some older ways of being.

  561. BeingThere June 22, 2012 at 4:33 pm #

    Asoka,
    Why don’t you ask CAF those questions. She is accessible and has her own site.
    But again, even if she backed Elizabeth Warren, so what? It was the lobbyists and the bankers that put the kabosh on her appointment, so what’s your point. She’s not in congress or the senate, so she has no say in those things.
    She has her own story to tell. I find it eerily familiar.

  562. xport June 22, 2012 at 4:40 pm #

    A party line on the telephone system was not like a dating service or a way to have some fun, it was a shared circuit, where the local Bell Telephone had installed a sequence of linked communication lines, and the dial tone, sometimes activated by a hand crank would contact a live operator who would then connect you to your destination. If you picked up the phone, there would often be a neighbor in the midst of a call. Common courtesy would compel you to hang up, rather than eves-drop. If you had an emergency you would request that the neighbor clear the line, and then double click the receive to get the operator on the line to finish the connection.
    The operator worked at a switch board, and would manually connect you to the extension of your choice.
    At that time all of the area connections had a prefix, like Livington, Astoria, Jefferson, followed by 4 numbers. No area codes. Long distance calling was a big deal.
    Man, I am getting old.

  563. xport June 22, 2012 at 4:56 pm #

    One more time. I am looking forward to Jim’s new book, Not sure if we have too much or too little magic going on right now, but we do need to find a better way of seeing and thinking about reality.
    A lot of people are walking around in a fog. Plato’s analogy of the Cave. We are getting more removed from reality with all the reality TV.
    Another note from my old timey experience:
    My wife has fond memories of her Nanny. An old woman from Germany, arrived in the USA between the world wars, never spoke a word of English. She taught my wife to sew, knit, garden and cook by example. Perhaps a few common words were exchanged. But the learning was done by the sharing and being together in the moment and working on common tasks to fill the ordinary day.
    That is what life is all about.

  564. Kyooshtik June 22, 2012 at 5:04 pm #

    What term would you use to describe them?
    ===========
    I do not see it/them as a massive conspiracy of the elite any more than I see the South Sea Bubble or Tulip Mania as conspiracies of the elite. I believe it (the dot com and housing bubbles) slowly began to sink into the consciousness of individuals (both within and outside the business) that something unsustainable had developed until a tipping point (a critical mass) was reached and it all began to tumble down. And suddenly a host of geniuses began to say “I told you so.”
    I am proud to say that we (my b-i-l, my wife and I sold my aged m-i-l’s house on January 19, 2006, virtually the exact peak of the housing market. The price was 8.4 times original cost before mortgage interest over a period of less than 30 years. My b-i-l thought we were nuts, that RE only goes up. I had to twist his arm.
    Though I have never read the book I suspect, from the title alone, that a lot could be learned from Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds

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  565. banana republican June 22, 2012 at 5:16 pm #

    Dear BT,
    You’ll have to excuse Soake’s approach here. He’s on this blog to argue, nothing more. He imagines himself as “erudite” but he’s anything but. God forbid that he would actually try to learn anything here.
    BR

  566. asoka.. June 22, 2012 at 5:18 pm #

    I’ll try to get an answer from her before she is killed. Oh? Didn’t you know TPTB are out to kill her. Actually, I think I found my answer in the last three sentences of the interview. She has done nothing politically to try to stop the screwing of consumers. As you say, she is just telling her story.
    Here is what Fitts herself said in an interview:
    Fitts: “In 2004, I wrote a letter to Condoleezza Rice about 9-11, that got picked up by UPI and sort of caused consternation to the administration and then June 14th I had litigation against the federal government. We won the big case against the federal government on June 14th and I got a signal from my lawyers that the Department of Justice wanted to settle and I had arranged a Swiss bank account because I didn’t want the money in the US. I was just concerned that once we won and anybody had to pay us, they’d pull another dirty trick. So I faxed the signature pages back to the Swiss on June 16th and suddenly, Dennis, the next two days, Halliburton was the number one user on my website by a huge amount, not a little amount but a huge amount and then that third day I was poisoned very badly. Some of my doctors think they were trying to kill me.”
    Host: “You were poisoned?”
    Fitts: “Yes.”
    Host: “What was the poison?”
    Fitts: “We don’t know. I was poisoned four times during the litigation. Three were arsenic and the fourth was probably a lead concoction; we can’t figure it out. We know what my tests show. The normal lead content is 1.7 times, my original was 47. My nutritionist couldn’t believe I could even walk. But it was pretty bad and when things like that happen, you’re busy trying to survive, your not busy trying to ‘Oh, how can I document this?’ Because these aren’t the kinds of things you can document, we’re talking or goes–you know how do you call? You can’t call the local police, you can’t go see the Department of Justice. What do you do? You do the best you can, but you’re in a situation which we’re all in. The government is no longer the authorities we go to when you’re in danger. They’re the Sheriff of Nottingham. We need to run and hide from them, protect our assets from them.”
    Fitts has her money in Switzerland. She is big into gold and silver. The more fear she can generate, the more people she can convince to to business with her. What you call “her story” is nothing more than advertising for her own personal gain.

  567. anti soak June 22, 2012 at 5:19 pm #

    Did she name a reporter and a book from 1995? [The title eludes me].
    ‘Did Fitts support the Dodd–Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act?’
    IS SHE AN ELECTED OFFICIAL?
    BeingThere, assoka disagrees just for the sake of disagreeing.

  568. anti soak June 22, 2012 at 5:21 pm #

    you noticed!

  569. banana republican June 22, 2012 at 5:23 pm #

    The Soake doesn’t travel; my hunch tells me he lives in a tenement in Newark, NJ. Besides, how could he travel at all when he’s so busy posting on this site. Every goddamn day… amazing!
    BR

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  570. anti soak June 22, 2012 at 5:24 pm #

    Bill, the Birchers have been warning folks about what she said, for 50+ years.
    Alex Jones has made a ‘cottage industry’ from taking their and similar info and marketing himself as ‘the genius who saw the guy behind the curtain first’.

  571. asoka.. June 22, 2012 at 5:25 pm #

    Banana Republican, this is what Catherine Austin Fitts said:
    The government is no longer the authorities we go to when you’re in danger. They’re the Sheriff of Nottingham. We need to run and hide from them, protect our assets from them.
    Do you agree with her?
    She is just selfishly out for herself. She doesn’t believe in the Commons, or, apparently, the Tragedy of the Commons. She’s all about the money… while the earth dies. Money is not important. Oxygen is. Try seeing how long you can live without each.

  572. anti soak June 22, 2012 at 5:26 pm #

    didya hear about the ‘Indiana Jones of Judaism’ and how he got arrested?

  573. banana republican June 22, 2012 at 5:29 pm #

    You didn’t hear a word she said, did you?
    BR

  574. anti soak June 22, 2012 at 5:33 pm #

    ‘The immigrants ask themselves why the hell did they go through all the trouble and expense of making a move when there was no work.’
    Well, I am in LA.
    The mexican immigrants do ‘hard labor’ and work the system.
    The russian and middle easterners ‘work the system and get govt jobs’.
    Some Russian or Ukrainian ‘import the hookers’ ring was just busted.
    I never hear a regret from them. More and more Indians [dot not feather] are flooding in as well.

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  575. anti soak June 22, 2012 at 5:34 pm #

    o no, Mr M is back again.

  576. anti soak June 22, 2012 at 5:37 pm #

    I see more and more people in USA and more and more dependence on Government [1 in 7? on EBT].
    How many Americans get a check from the Govt?
    And does that include section 8 Housing?

  577. Kyooshtik June 22, 2012 at 5:37 pm #

    . green behind the ears
    . a walk in the cake
    . rocket surgery
    ============
    Some of your more clever lines.
    A plethsoris of mixed pettyfours…real Norm Crosbyisms…like something my b-i-l might say.

  578. JonathanSS June 22, 2012 at 5:41 pm #

    Good one! Could be true. He (Asoka) is the Contrarian King, who likes to stir the pot on this site and will play devils advocate for his own amusement.

  579. Kyooshtik June 22, 2012 at 6:02 pm #

    At that time all of the area connections had a prefix, … followed by 4 numbers. No area codes. Long distance calling was a big deal.
    ==============
    Ah yes, I remember it well. Our prefix was CO which stood for Collingswood, the town we lived in. Unconsciously and intuitively, anyone calling long distance would raise the volume of their voice.

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  580. asoka.. June 22, 2012 at 6:06 pm #

    It’s all leela, JonathanSS.

  581. BeingThere June 22, 2012 at 6:09 pm #

    Maybe there’s 3 kinds of fascist states: one in which business and government are equal partners, one in which the government is the prime power, and one in which big business really runs things. Certainly, we are in the latter.
    Bean, I call it inverted communism and there is an economist I read who says he likes my encapsulation!
    Right now there’s the haves and the have-nots and
    this economic dynamic hits different people at different times. Some even see it as a boon time.

  582. asoka.. June 22, 2012 at 6:48 pm #

    Ask yourself why business is running things. It is because small government conservatives have forced a downsized government. Washington now must operate by paying private companies to perform a wide range of functions.
    To get some idea of the scale: contractors absorb the taxes paid by everyone in America with incomes under $100,000. In other words, more than 90 percent of all taxpayers might as well remit everything they owe directly to SAIC or some other contractor rather than to the IRS.
    Congratulations to the conservatives, to the libertarians, to the Republicans, and all those who oppose “big government” … now you have “big fascism”

  583. BeantownBill June 22, 2012 at 7:16 pm #

    I don’t know if this is accurate, but I think I remember stumbling onto his website 2 or 3 years ago and seeing a section on UFOs and the government hiding info about them. When I saw that, I just got off the site and haven’t been back since. Am I correct? Does his site talk about UFOs?

  584. asoka.. June 22, 2012 at 7:27 pm #

    Beantown, now you are getting close to the reason why JHK does not want conspiracy theorists on CFN.
    Alex Jones is very interested in a select group of individuals who strongly believe in extraterrestrial life. That is the “Illuminati” or global elite, or international banking families, intent on controlling and enslaving humanity according to Jones.
    Alex Jones has gone on the public record with his research findings that not only are the Illuminati “true believers” in extraterrestrial life, but they have established a secret religion where they view themselves as the descendents of ancient astronauts that visited Earth, and even created human life.
    Of course, it’s secret, like Catherine Austin Fitts shadow government, so we can’t know anything about it. But is sure sounds like we should be afraid… very afraid. That is the true purpose of false flag operations like Jones and Fitts.

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  585. scott June 22, 2012 at 8:10 pm #

    Ask yourself why business is running things. It is because small government conservatives have forced a downsized government. Washington now must operate by paying private companies to perform a wide range of functions.
    Conservatives have forced a downsized government?
    Get a clue, government workers be they contractors or direct government workers are still government workers. While technically many businesses are “private sector”, if there was a true accounting, I would bet more than 75% of all economic activity is government nowadays.
    Military Industrial Complex, Hospital Industrial Complex, Prison Industrial Complex, etc.

  586. xport June 22, 2012 at 8:10 pm #

    Man, oh, man, this is the dusty end of the tread.
    LOTS OF NUT CASES HERE.
    PLEASE FIND A VOICE FOR REASON, OR REFRAIN FROM EMBARRASSMENT.

  587. scott June 22, 2012 at 8:16 pm #

    BTW, business isn’t running things, it’s the government.

  588. Widespreadpanic7 June 22, 2012 at 8:19 pm #

    Asoka, you’re a contrarian who is here to bust everybody’s balls and piss everybody off, but you are correct on one important point: oil. There doesn’t seem to be any shortage of the stuff, and its getting cheaper by the day. TLE was written 8 years ago. You’d think by now the gas lines would be forming up and people freezing inside houses due to lack of heating oil. None of this is happening, which seems to undermine the reason for the existence for this site. Having said that, Jim’s new book looks pretty interesting and probably tomorrow I’ll go out and buy a copy.
    –WSP7

  589. BeantownBill June 22, 2012 at 8:23 pm #

    Hey, Mika, welcome back.

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  590. asoka.. June 22, 2012 at 8:27 pm #

    Get a clue, government workers be they contractors or direct government workers are still government workers.
    You get a clue. Workers paid for in the private sector, with taxpayer funds through government contracts, are corporate workers in the private sector receiving pay through government contracts. They are not direct government employees, do not belong to government employee unions, and do not have the protection of the civil service system.
    Government funding is shrinking, therefore government is shrinking.
    Federal, state and local taxes — including income, property, sales and other taxes — consumed 9.2% of all personal income in 2009, the lowest rate since 1950, the Bureau of Economic Analysis reported.
    That rate is far below the historic average of 12% for the last half-century when the country worked and we didn’t pay corporations like Halliburton (through no-bid contracts) to pay “private contractors” twice the amount that government workers would receive.
    We saw it in Iraq. The private security contractors got paid twice salary of the grunts to do the same work: TO PROVIDE SECURITY? WTF! Are soldiers incapable of providing security?

  591. scott June 22, 2012 at 8:30 pm #

    Asoka, you’re a contrarian who is here to bust everybody’s balls and piss everybody off,
    Asoka is anything but contrarian, Asoka is very consistent in standing by and maintaining the status quo.
    The status quo btw, needs there to be confidence that there is “plenty” of oil and that it will infinitely be “cheaper”.
    The status quo of infinite government growth and debt money creation out of thin air depends on it. The status quo is money out of thin air = premium–energy = discount.
    Is it surprising that the status quo would hold onto infinite growth until it can’t?
    Heard one analyst today said oil has reached it’s highs and oil will never be this expensive ever again. Except he left out the Amen.

  592. asoka.. June 22, 2012 at 8:32 pm #

    Thank you for your kind words, WSP7.
    I am not offering “contrarian” opinions.
    I am offering “contrarian” facts and supporting my arguments with data.
    And I am not being contrarian just to be contrarian.
    I am contrarian to correct misinformation being presented on CFN, as I do in Wikipedia.

  593. scott June 22, 2012 at 8:34 pm #

    Workers paid for in the private sector, with taxpayer funds through government contracts, are corporate workers in the private sector receiving pay through government contracts.
    It is still government spending you fucking fuck. Spending resources borrowed from present and future workers.

  594. BeantownBill June 22, 2012 at 8:34 pm #

    You aren’t old, you’re ancient! But I’m right there, too. At least 3 out of 4 of my grandparents (I’m not sure about my grandmother) were born in Europe, as well as my father. My grandfather was the ice man – he delivered ice around the neighborhood to put in ice boxes (remember ice boxes?). Growing up, we had a party line, too. I remember when we finally got a private line, it was a real big deal. Nobody eavesdropping on our conversations.

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  595. dale June 22, 2012 at 8:38 pm #

    This is astounding. See this link for more
    revelation:
    http://WWW.QUANTUMBUDDHISM.COM/TOPIC004.HTML
    peace peaceniks
    ——————————-
    Yes indeed. The major point here is, most of science hasn’t caught up with physicists, in terms of understanding the implications of quantum reality. For Buddhists it’s been a issue meditated on for centuries, called “emptiness” (which might just as well be called “fullness”) That the two (contemporary physics and Buddhism) are in almost perfect agreement on the nature of reality is quite astounding.
    The point I was trying to make with turkle is, the extreme materialist view of reality he was expounding is already out of date, from a scientific POV.

  596. Harvey Cohen June 22, 2012 at 8:45 pm #

    Bill –
    Don’t you get it? Mika is Vlad’s creation, nothing more. Don’t be such a putz. Oy vey!!!
    Humble Harv

  597. anti soak June 22, 2012 at 8:50 pm #

    Mika is Vlad, or someone here angered by Sri Vlad?
    [yes Kyooshtik, its ‘Sri’]

  598. asoka.. June 22, 2012 at 9:01 pm #

    Scott, we were discussing fascism with Catherine Austin Fitts with the domination of large multinational corporations. Government (as in direct government employees) is shrinking and corporate control is growing.
    According to the Wall Street Journal 600,000 state and local government jobs have already been lost since December 2008
    Last month, the Economic Policy Institute noted that the private sector had gained 2.8 million jobs while federal, state and local governments shed 584,000 just since June 2009.
    The private sector is getting the money, not the government, and the private sector spends it inefficiently without government oversight.
    We need bigger government (more direct government employees) and less corporate control of government, in order to spend more wisely what you call “resources borrowed from present and future workers.” It should be the other way around, with government policing the corporations, and higher taxes on the rich.

  599. Pucker June 22, 2012 at 9:06 pm #

    Happy World Refugee Day!
    http://www.timeanddate.com/holidays/un/world-refugee-day

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  600. BeantownBill June 22, 2012 at 9:12 pm #

    Q, I don’t know if there’s a massive conspiracy, exactly, but I think there’s a group (or groups)of very wealthy, influential people who have a certain vision of the future: that social and technological evolution is inevitably taking us to a place where there are no sovereign countries except for one world-spanning government, where there are no classes, and all the power is concentrated in a single council of unelected governors. I obviously have no proof of this, but it seems to me at least, that this is the logical conclusion from all the information I’ve seen or heard.
    I’ve been predicting our current economic state since 1969. Where I was wrong was in thinking it would be caused by hyperinflation,although that may yet occur.
    I sold my parents’ home in November of 2004, a little before the peak in the real estate market. My parents paid $32,000 for it in 1967, and I got them $405,000. Today, I’d guess it’s worth around $240,000-$250,000.

  601. BeantownBill June 22, 2012 at 9:16 pm #

    HH, I always marvel at how CFNers can claim this or that poster is a sock puppet. Tell me how you know Mika is Vlad’s.

  602. scott June 22, 2012 at 9:20 pm #

    Government workers and private sector government workers are one and the same if their paychecks come from the same place.

  603. BeantownBill June 22, 2012 at 9:24 pm #

    Ok, Asoka, let’s say I agree with you that government should regulate business. We already have many government organizations like the SEC, FTC, etc., yet business has corrupted the regulators and rendered them ineffective.
    In the real world, how could we insure regulators become effective and are not corrupted?

  604. scott June 22, 2012 at 9:29 pm #

    Ok, Asoka, let’s say I agree with you that government should regulate business. We already have many government organizations like the SEC, FTC, etc., yet business has corrupted the regulators and rendered them ineffective.
    In the real world, how could we insure regulators become effective and are not corrupted?

    Are you sure it is business that has corrupted government and not the other way around?
    I would maintain that the concept of big government is inherently corrupt — particularly if that government is in charge of determining the value of money.

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  605. Kyooshtik June 22, 2012 at 9:31 pm #

    Enjoy this Asoka.
    http://www.datehookup.com/Thread-630835.htm

  606. BeantownBill June 22, 2012 at 9:39 pm #

    I do agree with you, Scott, that big government has been corrupt, but having closely interacted with very wealthy bussinessmen in the world of business, I can tell you, at least from my experiences, that they are amoral assholes, mostly, so I could see where they corrupted government.
    However, too much money corrupts AND too much power corrupts as well.

  607. Vlad Krandz June 22, 2012 at 9:40 pm #

    You need to believe that otherwise you’d have to believe that Israelis were capable of rioting against Black immigrants. You’re good at believing whatever you want to. That’s why you need to live off of us – by yourselves you’re dysfuntional, too neurotic.

  608. Vlad Krandz June 22, 2012 at 9:52 pm #

    Yes, but let me use better terms to clarify:
    There are three kinds of Totalitarianism: Communism where the Economy is Goverment run. Fascism where the Goverment and Business cooperate for the good of the State. And Plutocracy where the Goverment is run for the good of Business.
    I know it’s an out of use word, but Plutocracy is the accurate one. Fascism is the best of these because it preserves both sides of the equation as opposed to Communism’s brutal overt takeover or Plutocracy’s hidden one. Only Fascism is about Man and his traditions and folkways. Communism and Capitalism are both economic only and even Capitalism tends towards a centralization of Power. No wonder they often get along so well while neither gets along with Fascism. Also Fascism ideally tries to maintain some degree of Democracy, although highly structured. I admit that is doesn’t always attain this. On the other hand, since it has always been under attack by the other two, it hasn’t had much chance, has it?
    Going a bit deeper, Fascism is an attempt to hold onto Tradition in the modern industrial age. Both Capitalism and Communism jettison tradition as fas as possible in their lust for money and power.
    I grant that Communism and Capitalism could find a middle ground as in European Socialism and that it is not Fascism at all. I grant that it can work but often it doesn’t. It’s said in the old East Germany a man had no freedom of speech but he wouldn’t starve. And that in Old West Germany, a man could starve but have his say. In the new united Germany, you can starve and still have far less than full freedom of speech.

  609. scott June 22, 2012 at 9:54 pm #

    I can tell you, at least from my experiences, that they are amoral assholes
    At the very least they are humans BTB–a big giant centralized government hellbent on infinite growth is a Leviathan unto it’s self. Doing what, “it” needs to grow.

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  610. BeantownBill June 22, 2012 at 10:08 pm #

    “Quantum entities are said to be waves and particles at the same time, they do not exist fully until they are observed, they can be in two places at the same time, and they can hover between existence and non-existence.”
    Dale, there’s been a number of popular physics writers like Gary Zukov (who wrote the Dancing Wu Li Masters) who equate Buddhism and mystic phenomena with Quantum Mechanics. Serious sceptical physicists largely scoff that they are related.
    The above quote I referenced from the website you referred to isn’t entirely accurate. Quantum entities aren’t waves and particles at the same time, but more accurately, they display qualities of both. To further understand how things do or do not exist unless observed, read any treatise on Schroedinger’s Cat. The explanation is not mystic. Don’t confuse this with asking the question, “If a bear shits in the woods and nobody’s there to see it, did it really shit in the woods?”
    I may be wrong, but I don’t think quantum mechanics states that anything can be in 2 places at the same time. Physicists sometimes speak of an electron being at all places in a cloud around an atomic nucleus. But what they’re talking about is a probability cloud of where an electon COULD be. Finally, there’s something called quantum entanglement in which 2 particles a long way apart (even across the universe from each other) can be “entangled” with each other, such that if you change a property of one particle, the other instantaneously changes the same way, even if its 1 million light years away. This apparantly violates one of relativity’s most basic tenets, that nothing can travel faster than the speed of light. Quantum entanglement is mind-blowing, but it does occur.

  611. asoka.. June 22, 2012 at 10:15 pm #

    LOL!
    The extreme materialist view of reality Turkle was expounding has been out of date since about 1912.
    Max Planck got the ball rolling in 1906, with the theory of the principle of relativity.
    Between 1907 and 1915 Einstein developed the theories of special and general relativity.
    Scientific certainty went out the window with Heisenberg’s uncertainty paper of 1927.
    Things have only gotten more complicated since then.

  612. BeantownBill June 22, 2012 at 10:16 pm #

    Yes, but why would it be hellbent on infinite growth, rather than realistic, finite goals? Could not CEOs of big businesses be corrupted by greed to the point where they have to keep growing by any means necessary, just as politicians become so addicted to power that they try to gather more and more of it? What comes first, the chicken or the egg?
    BTW, I’m not anti-business. It’s out-of-control, monopolistic big business that I’m against.

  613. scott June 22, 2012 at 10:36 pm #

    Yes, but why would it be hellbent on infinite growth, rather than realistic, finite goals?
    Has the government done anything but grow since inception? Once government growth becomes reliant upon debt and extrapolating debt indefinitely into the future then that is the very definition of infinite growth.
    Absolute power corrupts absolutely–the government did not come to power overnight but incrementally. I do not believe big business is to blame for the current Leviathan of big government but the citizens who enabled exponential growth in government by selling out to various Ponzi schemes such as SSI, Medicare and Medicaid. Big business also sold out by taking the ball and running with it.

  614. BeantownBill June 22, 2012 at 10:38 pm #

    Then technically you have to call the old USSR an oppressive dictatorship with a communist economy, and the US heading towards an oppressive Plutocracy with a capitalistic economy.
    So what do you call Nazi Germany – not as an ideal, but what it actually was as a result of its actions? Just like America is theoretically a republic, but actually a runaway capitalistic, militaristic plutocracy, Nazi Germany was theoretically a socialistic state (National Socialism), but actually was a runaway hybrid capitalistic, fascist military dictatorship.
    Phew!

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  615. messianicdruid June 22, 2012 at 10:41 pm #

    “Humanists believe in law and government, which you reject with your constant berating of {rulemakers}”
    You are trying to say, humanists believe in human law and human lawmaking, which is an attempt to improve upon perfection { the perfect law of liberty }. Man has been given no authority to MAKE law, only to enforce it. And he must know he will be held to the same law. Who, thinking rightly, can cease from berating the foolishness that passes for “policy” and bribes by any other name. Agreements to make money and increase lawlessness rather than correct it, are made on every corner. Who can prosper under these circumstances. Only – he that will run with a multitude, to do evil.

  616. BeantownBill June 22, 2012 at 10:43 pm #

    So what should we do? Rein in big government, or rein in big business, or both? If you control either, then the other is free to grow infinitely, so you probably have to rein in both. And in that case, it ultimately makes no difference who was responsible for our mess.

  617. scott June 22, 2012 at 10:45 pm #

    Read messianicdruids post above…

  618. messianicdruid June 22, 2012 at 10:59 pm #

    “Now you say he was the son of a tekton.” Due to your excellent research I have modified my understanding of the ancient language which obviously would make me have a better appreciation for the intracacies of this ancient period. Thanks.
    Now, do you grasp why the people of his hometown did not recognize him, after perhaps 17 years absence? And why he could sleep on a boat being tossed around by waves, while his companions were almost crying in fear of perishing?
    Isn’t it also obvious why this confusion started?

  619. BeantownBill June 22, 2012 at 11:01 pm #

    Actually, Michaelson and Morley started the relativity ball rolling around 1880 with their experiment disproving the existence of the ether. The next step was Einstein’s discovery of the photoelectric effect in 1905, and for which he won the Nobel Prize.
    Quantum mechanics, developed in the 1920’s was revolutionary because it was ultimately based on probability, the Schroedinger Wave Function.
    Heisenberg’s Uncertainty Principle basically stated that you could exactly measure either a particle’s position or its momentum, but not both, so one measurement would be certain, while the other would be uncertain.

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  620. asoka.. June 22, 2012 at 11:14 pm #

    Once government growth becomes reliant upon debt and extrapolating debt indefinitely into the future then that is the very definition of infinite growth.

    You are wrong about this, Scott. Debt has not always increased due to government growth. But when we do increase the public debt it is due to fighting wars. That’s how we took all the land from Mexico that is being taken back now through the reconquista.
    The War of 1812 was financed mainly through the use of borrowed funds. Total public debt increased from $45.2 million on January 1, 1812, to $119.2 million as of September 30, 1815. Then the public debt was eliminated and in 1835, the $17.9 million budget surplus was greater than the total government expenses for that year.
    Public debt in 1860 totaled $64.8 million. By the end of 1865, interest-bearing public debt stood at $2.2 billion. War is expensive and wasteful.
    By the end of 1919, total debt exceeded $25 billion. World War I was expensive and stupid.
    In 1940 total public debt was $50.7 billion. Approximately $211 billion of the estimated $323 billion spent fighting the war was borrowed.
    It is not government that is expensive and always grows. It is wasteful spending on wars that puts the country into debt.
    With the outbreak of hostilities in Korea in June, 1950, defense spending jumped from $17.7 billion to $40.4 billion in 1953, and the Treasury again became concerned with the problem of financing a war effort.
    The post-World War II period had seen only seven years of government deficits (associated with the Korean War or economic recession) mixed with seven years of budgetary surplus. The total debt rose by a modest $30 billion (from $260 billion to $290 billion). And if inflation is taken into account, the real value of the debt would be seen to fall during this time!
    Then came Vietnam and we haven’t stopped invading and bombing countries since. Debt has grown continuously. We are now in a state of permanent war, thanks to the Military-Industrial Complex Eisenhower warned us about.

  621. scott June 22, 2012 at 11:22 pm #

    yep, if the poor ole’ government didn’t have to fight them pesky wars then it wouldn’t need to grow.
    when do you forsee an end to this need?

  622. asoka.. June 22, 2012 at 11:29 pm #

    Are you in favor of eliminating the CIA, DoD, and all the branches of the armed forces?
    The cost of the military and the war debt they have created seems to bother you. But do you agree with me that the military should be eliminated?
    Do you walk your talk, Scott? Or am I the only one on CFN calling for the complete elimination of all the armed forces?

  623. asoka.. June 22, 2012 at 11:47 pm #

    You think you’re cute, making fun of war expenditures. Bush created the Dept. of Homeland Security for the GLOBAL WAR ON TERRORISM, which began as a small operation, coordinated from inside the White House by first Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge, and has now grown to a bureaucratic behemoth, with the second-largest combined workforce behind the Department of Defense and a budget of $57 billion requested for fiscal year 2012.
    I say Homeland Security should be eliminated along with the military and the CIA. We have to reduce government, right Scott? You are with me on these proposals to reduce government growth, right?

  624. asoka.. June 23, 2012 at 12:30 am #

    General government expenditures are 8% of the federal budget. Current and past military expenditures are about 50% of the federal budget.
    “Current military” includes Dept. of Defense ($673 billion) and the military portion from other departments ($166 billion). “Past military” represents veterans’ benefits plus 80% of the interest on the debt.*
    These figures are from an analysis of detailed tables in the Analytical Perspectives book of the Budget of the United States Government, Fiscal Year 2013. The figures are federal funds, which do not include trust funds – such as Social Security – that are raised and spent separately from income taxes.
    *Analysts differ on how much of the debt stems from the military; others estimate 50% to 60%. I use 80% because I believe if there had been no military spending most (if not all) of the national debt would have been eliminated.

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  625. Vlad Krandz June 23, 2012 at 12:34 am #

    No, tell me.

  626. messianicdruid June 23, 2012 at 12:39 am #

    “So what should we do?”
    Stop working for big goobermint, or big busness. Stop using their money. Stop obeying their law.
    Need little, Want less, Love more.
    Too many are working on a modified version of the law, the part about murder. Despising your brother can have a cause. But your brother has a claim on you. Because of this you appeal to the higher court when two or three witnesses are not available. Since we have a corrupt court system, run by and for men’s law, we cannot expect justice from that quarter, unless God intervenes.
    Would you want to be sent to your death by a bunch of partisan do-gooders, who act as if they were above the law they themselves use to condemn others? Go, and sin no more.

  627. Kyooshtik June 23, 2012 at 12:40 am #

    Asoka, with a perfectly genuine and unaffected straight face you say the most astonishing things at times such as:
    It is not government that is expensive and always grows. It is wasteful spending on wars that puts the country into debt.
    in which you imply that the waging of war is something separate and apart from the legitimate functions of government when in fact the use of military force to protect the citizenry and support other legitimate national goals is arguably the primary function of government.
    I realize, having come to know you over a period of three years, that it is nigh on impossible for you to consider the proposition that, for example, operating a system of public education is NOT a legitimate function of government. Nor is feeding the citizenry nor seeing that they are fashionably shod.
    Devotees of BIG GOVT such as yourself, Paul Krugman and virtually every politician alive save, perhaps, Ron Paul, seem not to be able to help thinking the way they do.
    And similarly jaw-dropping is the statement that
    if inflation is taken into account, the real value of the debt would be seen to fall…
    spoken as though inflation and government were unrelated… as though inflation were in the category of “shit happens.”

  628. asoka.. June 23, 2012 at 12:52 am #

    the use of military force to protect the citizenry and support other legitimate national goals is arguably the primary function of government.

    But a standing army is not, Qshtik. Go back to the Constitution. The guys who framed it knew war. The separation-of-powers doctrine was used in order to keep the country out of needless and destructive wars. The Constitution grants Congress the power to declare war but not to wage it. The president can wage war but cannot declare it. The president cannot raise the funds or troops for a particular war — that power lies with Congress.
    The idea was to make warfare a difficult stage to reach, a stage that should be attainable only should war be just and necessary.
    The separation of war powers involved no fuzzy line.
    The other route to war that the Founders feared was that of a standing army. People today cannot even contemplate not having an enormous standing military, but in the late 18th century, Americans considered a standing army to be a primary tool of despotism.
    A standing army is composed of professional soldiers, that is, of men who make their living preparing for war and waging it. It is a good idea to have a standing army if it is thought that there is a good chance of an imminent attack or invasion, but other than possibly deterring an attack, a standing army offers few benefits and yet poses dangerous risks. The Founders thought it much wiser to depend on citizen-soldiers in the militias for defense.
    Qshtik, I submit that spending TRILLIONS of dollars on undeclared wars, drone bombings, and “police actions,” all over the globe, is not the legitimate function of government and is not authorized by the Constitution.

  629. anti soak June 23, 2012 at 1:05 am #

    I heard [probably on NPR, but I also listen to am, even a ‘touch of rush].
    A fellow who would talk, claiming he rescued Torahs from various places, buried at Concentration camps, raised millions of $.
    Some lads would ‘give all their bar mitzvah money’.
    U.S. arrests ‘Jewish Indiana Jones’ in Torah scam | The Raw Story
    http://www.rawstory.com/…/u-s-arrests-jewish-indiana-jones-in-torah-scam/
    Aug 24, 2011 – NEW YORK — A self-styled “Jewish Indiana Jones” was arrested Wednesday for the unholy business of cheating Jews through a charity …
    Leading Open Orthodox Rabbi Defends Alleged “Indiana Jones …
    newsdesk.tjctv.com/…/leading-open-orthodox-rabbi-defends-alleged-…
    The big Jewish crime news today is that of the “Indiana Jones Rabbi” arrest. R’ Menachem Youlus, who told grand stories of recovering Torahs that survived the …
    ‘Jewish Indiana Jones’ is Arrested in New York – Law Blog – WSJ …
    http://www.anti-semitism.net/jewish/jewish-indiana-jones-is-arrested-in-new...
    !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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  630. anti soak June 23, 2012 at 1:07 am #

    Bill, I dont know what Alex J espouses.
    He is not David Icke [reptilian overlords].
    I hear him on C2C radio…I am suspicious because he is ‘selling survival seeds’.

  631. asoka.. June 23, 2012 at 1:07 am #

    Qshtik, I submit that spending TRILLIONS of dollars on undeclared wars, drone bombings, and “police actions,” all over the globe, is not the legitimate function of government and is not authorized by the Constitution.

    Nor is it constitutional to maintain hundreds of military bases, many with officers’ golf courses, all around the globe. The framers never envisioned giant and expensive bureaucracies like the DoD and CIA and Homeland Security that routinely violate laws and human rights.
    Nor is it constitutional to have a “black budget” for the CIA to raise secret armies, engage in secret kidnappings, run secret torture prisons, etc.
    The Founders gave us a 2nd amendment to avoid having standing armies. You support the 2nd amendment, right? But do you also insist that a standing army is authorized by the Constitution? Re-read the 2nd amendment in its entirety.
    Also, the Constitution says in Article I, Section 8,

    The Congress shall have the Power To … raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years….

    It was thought that after a national crisis had passed, Congress would have the chance to dissolve the army by simply doing nothing. The money used to pay soldiers and to buy weaponry would disappear and the army would cease to exist. And for a long time, it worked.
    Now, the country is routinely engaged in conflicts in every corner of the globe, none of which has anything to do with the military’s only legitimate purpose: to defend the country from invasion.

  632. anti soak June 23, 2012 at 1:15 am #

    I have been in LA over 30 years and I can remember
    the USA going back to 1960.
    Quality of life has collapsed, except for the 5%.
    Oh, our populations increased in USA by 50% in 40 years.

  633. asoka.. June 23, 2012 at 1:17 am #

    Not to mention that we wasted TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS on the “defense” establishment, but the so-called “defense” establishment was incapable of defending us from 19 guys with box cutters during Bush and Cheney’s watch.
    Bush Fail. Cheney Fail.
    And now Romney has hired guys from their team onto his campaign. The same neo-cons who ran the country into a ditch and could not protect us from attack.
    Spending TRILLIONS of dollars on “defense” is a waste of taxpayer money.

  634. Kyooshtik June 23, 2012 at 1:43 am #

    It doesn’t take a “rocket surgeon” to realize technology necessitates a standing army. I am not against amending the constitution in instances like this where it is so obviously outmoded.
    BTW, stop being inconsistent. Less than 2 hours ago you said “I say Homeland Security should be eliminated along with the military and the CIA.” Obviously, you didn’t mean temporarily.

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  635. bshirt June 23, 2012 at 7:37 am #

    What a very, very good point that is indeed. “Powerlessness hurts” is gross understatement if there was one imo.
    The more I think about it, the more I’m convinced it really is the #1 problem I have as it’s just overwhelming. Oh well, it’a good to have an idea where the main fear comes from I guess.

  636. Eleuthero June 23, 2012 at 9:16 am #

    Q said to Asoka:
    BTW, stop being inconsistent.
    ***********************************************************
    His problem often isn’t inconsistency, it’s the non sequitur. For example, when you stated that it is a PRIMARY obligation of government to have the power to wage war to protect the populace, he talked about the MISUSE of the military by recent governments in “needless wars”.
    In other words, you were speaking on a matter of basic principle about what government is principally about while he was talking about SPECIFIC INSTANCES where this power was not wisely used. He “refuted” a point you never made. It is one of his primary rhetorical tactics on this site.
    The USA has engaged in many governmental ABUSES (e.g., President going to war without it being declared and so on) of power with regards to war, I sure don’t want to live anywhere where I am defenseless when a REAL enemy arises!!
    E.

  637. charliefoxtrot June 23, 2012 at 9:45 am #

    …did you see this?

  638. BeingThere June 23, 2012 at 9:56 am #

    E.
    Good analysis of Asoka’s non sequiturs.
    Problem we all have is that our leadership sees enemies around every corner especially when they have a resource we want to control.
    If we don’t have an enemy we can always concoct one to keep the military security complex nice and phat.
    [I sure don’t want to live anywhere where I am defenseless when a REAL enemy arises!!]
    So when will we know when we are hit with the real deal?
    LB

  639. BeingThere June 23, 2012 at 9:58 am #

    Thanks for “That”
    Good article and really says it all.

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  640. Pucker June 23, 2012 at 10:04 am #

    What kind of soap do they now use for brainwashing?

  641. asoka.. June 23, 2012 at 10:10 am #

    Nice analysis of E.’s post.
    We are bankrupt as a nation due to fear.

  642. charliefoxtrot June 23, 2012 at 10:15 am #

    …Axe…

  643. asoka.. June 23, 2012 at 10:22 am #

    I suppose box cutters are technology. But you cannot defend against them, no matter how many trillions of big government dollars you want to spend. I have been forced to pay for your fear… and the bankrupting of our nation.

  644. Kyooshtik June 23, 2012 at 10:24 am #

    He “refuted” a point you never made. It is one of his primary rhetorical tactics on this site.
    =============
    I am aware of his tactics. They are part and parcel of what it takes to be a slimy eel.

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  645. asoka.. June 23, 2012 at 10:34 am #

    So, it’s back to ad homonym… sigh.

  646. Rhino June 23, 2012 at 10:36 am #

    So when will we know when we are hit with the real deal? – BT
    Look at recent history. Hitler and Stalin (as co-starters of WW2 in Europe) and Hirohito (as the starter of WW2 in Asia) and the countries they ran were the real deal.
    And the USSR and China during the Cold War.
    And post Cold War China is very busy building up its military. Very bad news for its immediate neighbors if not yet the US. Very, very bad news for Russia and its hold on its territory bordering China. Terrible news for countries that think they have claims on offshore resources. Big question mark is whether the US will let itself get drawn into these conflicts.
    If you want to know what happens to peoples that are disunited and militarily weak look at what happened to Amerindians from the year 1500 as an example. The two wide oceans separating the Americas from the rest of the world weren’t much of a defence.

  647. Kyooshtik June 23, 2012 at 10:46 am #

    I have been forced to pay for your fear… and the bankrupting of our nation.
    ============
    You need to have yourself checked for early-onset Alzheimer’s. I believe it was just a couple of days ago that you proudly mentioned for the umpteenth time that you live on a mere $1K/mo from the Govt SS teat (that would be the one on ‘the left’) and so do not pay income taxes.

  648. Rhino June 23, 2012 at 10:50 am #

    Or am I the only one on CFN calling for the complete elimination of all the armed forces? – Asoka
    No doubt you are also calling for ALL countries to eliminate their armed forces. Or are you just calling for the US to leave itself defenceless?
    Which leaves open the question of so called non-state actors. What about them and their arms? Can’t have wars being fought by non state proxies can we? No doubt you are also calling for ALL countries to police their own territories so as to disarm and disband them. Right? Can’t have wars being fought by governments via this see no evil hear no evil approach can we?

  649. Kyooshtik June 23, 2012 at 10:53 am #

    So, it’s back to ad homonym… sigh
    ==============
    hominem

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  650. Rhino June 23, 2012 at 10:54 am #

    He “refuted” a point you never made. It is one of his primary rhetorical tactics on this site. – E
    And an extremely tiresome tactic.

  651. asoka.. June 23, 2012 at 11:01 am #

    You need to study English language verb tenses.
    Have been means for the 45 years I worked to pay your DoD contract salary.
    Am being would mean I am still paying, which I am not.
    I am more convinced than ever that you are not a native English speaker.

  652. Rhino June 23, 2012 at 11:04 am #

    I believe it was just a couple of days ago that you proudly mentioned for the umpteenth time that you live on a mere $1K/mo from the Govt SS teat (that would be the one on ‘the left’) and so do not pay income taxes. – Kyoo
    Do you seriously believe he lives on a grand a month?
    I remember one of his posts where he said he’d just had a dinner of brown rice, organic squash soup, green salad, green tea. This is not food someone living on a grand a month could afford. I’ve had a couple stints of unemployment so I know what it is to live on very little. Brown rice costs a lot more than white rice. Organic foods cost a lot more than non-organic. At least in these parts. Someone living on a grand a month would have to count every penny. He wouldn’t be buying brown rice or ANYTHING organic. I think we can safely dispense with this nonsense of a grand a month income. Either that or this organic meal and green tea was a fabrication.

  653. Kyooshtik June 23, 2012 at 11:05 am #

    Or are you just calling for the US to leave itself defenceless?
    =============
    All good points in your post…
    but I am wondering, are you Brit, Aussie or Canadian? We, here in the USA spell it defense.

  654. asoka.. June 23, 2012 at 11:07 am #

    Q. said defense is a legitimate role of government.
    Since we are spending a half trillion dollars a year on defense, I simply pointed out the Constitutional framers did not envision a standing army.
    It was relevant since I had called for the elimination of the military and Q. responded in a way that could be interpreted as justifying a standing army. So I pointed the relevant section of the Constitution.
    There was no bait and switch, no rhetorical deception.
    What you guys are doing is attacking me because you don’t like my argument.
    Now Q. wants to say technology justifies a standing army. Fine. Excuses will always be found as long the the fear factor is there. But don’t claim the founders set it up for us to establish a military industrial complex.
    The Constitution never intended for us to have a permanent military which uses 93% of our oil consumption.

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  655. asoka.. June 23, 2012 at 11:08 am #

    He is Canadian. An honourable Canadian.

  656. Rhino June 23, 2012 at 11:08 am #

    Another thing. This thing about his being being old. Do you believe this story? Given that he evinces no apparent knowledge of the 1940s/1950s. He just does not have the sound of someone that lived through those times.

  657. asoka.. June 23, 2012 at 11:15 am #

    You have defeated me with you clever questions, to which you already know the answers. That makes them rhetorical questions, I guess.

  658. Rhino June 23, 2012 at 11:19 am #

    Or possibly from Singapore or India or other places the Brits planted the flag. I like anonymity. The anglosphere is a big place. Our family spread all over the world since the 1800s.

  659. asoka.. June 23, 2012 at 11:20 am #

    Rhino, please stop with ad hominem. Guessing and questioning about who I am is a waste of bandwidth.
    Focus more on the Chinese. Aren’t they the reason we will need to spend more trillions of big government dollars on our “common defence”?
    You can never spend enough money on defence, can you Rhino?

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  660. scott June 23, 2012 at 11:24 am #

    I say Homeland Security should be eliminated along with the military and the CIA. We have to reduce government, right Scott? You are with me on these proposals to reduce government growth, right?
    There is no “plan” to reduce government growth Asoka… btw how many Asoka’s are there? I’m beginning to think that you are Legion. An infinite distraction.
    Coincidental that I am currently working on a homeland security project at the local Prison Industrial Complex?
    But no, there is no plan to reduce government growth. A reduction in government growth would be allowing the system to suffer an immediate collapse rather than dragging it out for as long as possible.
    I worked on this project also http://cryptome.org/eyeball/nctc/nctc-birdseye.htm
    Check out the bollards…

  661. Rhino June 23, 2012 at 11:27 am #

    Which raises another issue. We live in the real world rather than some imaginary utopian construct. Given what we know via hard experience about human nature and the nature of nations and societies in the world as it actually is how practical do you think it is to call for elimination of armed forces? And this is a practical question. Why? Because a large part of the political sphere has devoted a lot of time to that very proposition. We’ve been listening to it for decades. So what about it?

  662. Rhino June 23, 2012 at 11:30 am #

    You raised the issue of disarmament. So you must have some means in mind of accomplishing this goal. So please do tell. Given the body count of the 20th/21st centuries these are more than rhetorical issues.

  663. asoka.. June 23, 2012 at 11:31 am #

    Coincidental that I am currently working on a homeland security project at the local Prison Industrial Complex
    So you are on the government payroll?
    You are wrong when you say “there is no plan to reduce government growth.” What do you call eliminating 594,000 direct government jobs in the last three years? Obama has shrunk the government after Bush increased the number of government employees. The facts don’t support your paranoia.

  664. Kyooshtik June 23, 2012 at 11:33 am #

    Brown rice costs a lot more than white rice. Organic foods cost a lot more than non-organic.
    ==============
    No Rhino, you’ve got it wrong. Asoka grows his own “organic” foods including the brown rice. He has one of those beautifully terraced mountain sides like you see in National Geographic photos in Asia and may be seen standing bent over up to mid-calf in water with one of those wok shaped straw hats on his head while planting his rice shoots. He does this during breaks between mud brick manufacturing, blogging and the correction of Wikipedia entries. Mrs Asoka’s complaints and desire to move back to ‘the hood’ have fallen on deaf ears.

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  665. Rhino June 23, 2012 at 11:36 am #

    You can never spend enough money on defence, can you Rhino? – Asoka
    Still waiting for your practical proposals to rid the world of the pestilence of armed forces and armed conflict. So you tell me.

  666. asoka.. June 23, 2012 at 11:40 am #

    It is rhetorical. Look, I’ll show you: if all the nations had disarmed at the beginning of the 20th century, then the militaries of the world could not have murdered millions. I just saved millions of lives.
    But Hitler and Stalin and Reagan are not rhetorical. But they needed followers. They need fearful people like you to justify their murder and increase the size of their militaries. And around and around it goes.
    …the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country. — Hermann Goring (from The Nuremberg Diary (1947)

  667. asoka.. June 23, 2012 at 11:44 am #

    And you will decide what is “practical,” right?
    I’m with Nancy Reagan: “Just say no!”
    That is what I did when drafted for Vietnam. I said no. And did two years of alternative service in a hospital.
    Of course, my response was not considered “practical” to stop the communist dominoes from falling all the way from Vietnam to Los Angeles.
    That’s what we were told would happen if we didn’t stop them there. But we lost in Vietnam and the world did not become communist.

  668. Rhino June 23, 2012 at 11:55 am #

    Look, I’ll show you: if all the nations had disarmed at the beginning of the 20th century, then the militaries of the world could not have murdered millions. I just saved millions of lives. – Asoka
    Yes, if you had been around to tell them what to do millions of lives would have been saved.
    But you weren’t around back then. But you are here now.
    Actually I have an idea. Hear me out.
    There’s a nasty war in Syria as we speak. And it seems to be getting worse by the day. Seems from the news videos I see that they developed a taste for cutting the throats of defenceless women and kids.
    Not only that but it seems that other countries are getting drawn into it. Seems that Syrian forces are firing into Turkish territory and just today a Turkish jet was shot down.
    Turkey is a NATO member. Apparently its been attacked. Do I need to elaborate on what could happen next?
    So Asoka, the wise Philosopher King. This is a real world problem. People dying in droves and every possibility that it blows up from an apparently small, isolated fight into something much wider. Remember 1914? Nobody saw what it would become. Home by Christmas they said.
    So give the Syrians and the world the benefit of your real world wisdom and save the Syrians and very possibly the world from an awful conflagration.
    We wait….

  669. Rhino June 23, 2012 at 12:11 pm #

    But we lost in Vietnam and the world did not become communist. – Asoka
    Yes, I’m sure you were drafted for Vietnam.
    I have another unworthy thought. That the sacrfice of 58,000 young Americans and a million (or two million) Vietnamese wasn’t in vain. As you say, the world did not become communist. That would have indeed been a dreadful outcome.
    Why didn’t it become communist? Maybe because of the efforts and lives expended in shitholes like Vietnam and Korea? Maybe the Communists had a good hard look at what a fight they would have on their hands?
    So the next time you see an old American Vietnam vet shake his hand and thank him.
    And you know what? I read that Vietnamese officers are studying in US military academies. So if you see a Vietnamese officer shake his hand and welcome him as a friend.

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  670. asoka.. June 23, 2012 at 12:15 pm #

    Turkey is a NATO member. Apparently its been attacked. Do I need to elaborate on what could happen next?
    Yes, please elaborate. I’m popping popcorn now.
    So give the Syrians and the world the benefit of your real world wisdom and save the Syrians and very possibly the world from an awful conflagration.
    [sarcasm on]
    Maybe more guns. Bigger military. More violence. More hate. That always seems to help. Hell, you liked Truman’s decision… why not just nuke ’em?
    [sarcasm off]
    Look, Rhino. I gave you my answer from my own life experience: just say no.
    I don’t have control over what is happening in Syria. But if they want to drag me into it, they will find it is not possible. I have no fear of death. They can slit my throat, but they cannot make me kill another human being. I have control over myself.

  671. Rhino June 23, 2012 at 12:15 pm #

    Thanks for setting me straight.

  672. Kyooshtik June 23, 2012 at 12:17 pm #

    So the next time you see an old American Vietnam vet shake his hand and thank him.
    ============
    This will happen right after hell freezes over.

  673. asoka.. June 23, 2012 at 12:19 pm #

    It is hurtful to read such ridicule of a life I have so lovingly created.

  674. Rhino June 23, 2012 at 12:21 pm #

    OK, just say no. Sounds like a plan. But no one can talk about your plan like YOU can talk about your plan.
    So given the miracles of the internet and modern communications I would think it would be very easy for you to contact Kofi and Hillary and the Alawite and Sunni militias and tell them what you told us. Just say no. Great.
    Let us know how you make out.

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  675. asoka.. June 23, 2012 at 12:22 pm #

    58,000 young Americans and a million (or two million) Vietnamese wasn’t in vain.
    That is where you and I differ. Those deaths were completely in vain.
    I will not be shaking the hand of any Vietnam vet for killing two million Vietnamese. I have a thing about mass murder and do not condone it under any circumstance.

  676. Kyooshtik June 23, 2012 at 12:24 pm #

    and the world did not become communist.
    ===========
    Much to your chagrin.

  677. asoka.. June 23, 2012 at 12:26 pm #

    Let us know how you make out.
    I spent a lot of my life appealing to militarists like you to stop killing. It did not work.
    You guys just seem to love violence (no, you “hate war” and you “hate” violence, but it is “sometimes” (!) “necessary”).
    You always have a perfect excuse to engage in violence.

  678. Rhino June 23, 2012 at 12:28 pm #

    I have a thing about mass murder and do not condone it under any circumstance. – Asoka
    How noble.
    BTW we haven’t heard your thundering denunciation of Imperial Japan for attempting to construct a nuke during WW2. And we’ve been waiting for a very, very long time. What about it?

  679. Kyooshtik June 23, 2012 at 12:29 pm #

    It is hurtful to read such ridicule …
    ==============
    Oh, sorry. Did I forget the [SARCASM] On/Off signs?

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  680. Rhino June 23, 2012 at 12:30 pm #

    You were right Kyoo.

  681. Vlad Krandz June 23, 2012 at 12:30 pm #

    Hate to say it, but the Eel is more right than he is wrong on this one. The Founders were totally against foreign wars. And they did view having a standing army as an ominous sign. Such things are a hammer in search of a nail.
    If you want to see what they intended in a modern context, look at Switzerland. Every able bodied man is a member of the militia and trains several weeks a year. It helps bond the Nation together as well as providing defence. And they have shelter space for every person is Switzerland in the event of War or Catastrophe. America only provides for the Elite. It lost all interest in the lives of its citizens decades ago.

  682. Rhino June 23, 2012 at 12:36 pm #

    I spent a lot of my life appealing to militarists like you to stop killing. It did not work. – Asoka
    And so you’ve given up.
    Look, Mandela spent decades in prison, Aung San Suu Kyi spent decades under house arrest, Vaclav Havel spent time in the clink. How many people sacrificed for the sake of human dignity? And you can’t even send a few emails? Even when the fate of the world hangs in the balance? Sounds to me like you don’t believe what you telling us. Now that couldn’t be could it? Say it ain’t so.

  683. Rhino June 23, 2012 at 12:39 pm #

    Still waiting for your thundering denunciation of Imperial Japan for their attempts to develop a nuke. How hard is it anyway? I would have thought that for all your pissing on the US that you’d have a template. Should come as second nature. Come on, we’re waiting.

  684. asoka.. June 23, 2012 at 12:42 pm #

    From Wikipedia:

    In Marxist theory, pure communism is a specific stage of historical development that inevitably emerges from the development of the productive forces that leads to a superabundance of material wealth, allowing for distribution based on need and social relations based on freely associated individuals.

    Yes, I want the world to become communist, to share freely, but not through any sort of force or coercion, only based on “freely associated individuals.” I don’t want to be forced to accept more wealth than I need.
    Do you think I need to correct this Wikipedia entry?

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  685. asoka.. June 23, 2012 at 12:45 pm #

    And so you’ve given up.
    Not completely. I am still making efforts on CFN and Wikipedia. But those efforts are largely unsuccessful and for all practical purposes, yes, I have given up. Sorry to disappoint you.

  686. asoka.. June 23, 2012 at 12:47 pm #

    Still waiting for your thundering denunciation of Imperial Japan for their attempts to develop a nuke.
    You write it and I’ll sign it. Still doesn’t justify Truman’s decision to incinerate two year olds who were not developing nukes.

  687. asoka.. June 23, 2012 at 12:56 pm #

    Do NOT correct the entry, Asoka. Prog4Spam has informed us that Wikipedia articles do not contain errors, not any that he is aware of anyway.
    So, if Wikipedia say communism is based on “freely associated individuals” that is what communism is.

  688. Vlad Krandz June 23, 2012 at 12:57 pm #

    Bravo Bill. This kind of thing is pure reductionism – utterly alien to true Buddhist Philosophy; as if the Ultimate Reality is Buddha Mind was just subatomic particles.
    An earlier version was the exoteric Abhidharma of the Theravada School. As the Mahayana Masters said, they talked as if the dharmas were “real” or subtanial in and of themselves. In other words, reducing the Ultimate Reality down its smallest and briefest manifestions.

  689. asoka.. June 23, 2012 at 12:58 pm #

    Compose it for me to sign. How the hell would I know what you mean by “thunderous”? You write it.
    Come on, we’re waiting.

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  690. asoka.. June 23, 2012 at 1:00 pm #

    Thanks for clearing that up, Vlad.

  691. Vlad Krandz June 23, 2012 at 1:03 pm #

    The Ultimate Reality is Simple not complicated like Quantum Physics.
    Dale’s mistake, having studied Wilber you should remember: mistaking the lowest level of existence, matter with the highest. Why? Because it is beyond form, perhaps? It is pre form actually, so this is a version of the pre/trans fallacy perhaps. Also the very simplicity of this level makes it easy to see two marks of the three marks of existence: anatta and annica, no self and temporary. And then confusing the marks with the Ultimate and voila, the confusion is complete.
    The third mark, dukkha or suffering only become apparent at the level of conscious beings. Hierarchy again, always hierarchy if one wants to understand anything.

  692. BeingThere June 23, 2012 at 1:07 pm #

    Agreed.
    I never said we shouldn’t have a strong defense. In fact I worry that economic determinism is against us, since we aren’t manufacturing and building up a tax base for a strong military.
    Sadly I think this leadership is saying things we want to hear about a strong nation-state, while working toward a transnational global agenda.
    I have plenty to read about this subject, to qualify it isn’t so easy, but one has to figure out why decisions made don’t add up to what we generally believe constitutes a great nation-state with a great military.
    I don’t personally want to see us in Iran or Syria. I think we are wasting our resources for the sake of private interests.
    Of course we need to protect ourselves. I just see other agendas being played out that aren’t good for we the people.

  693. Rhino June 23, 2012 at 1:09 pm #

    You’re the one so adept at condemning. So let’s see some parity. You wouldn’t want us to question your motives would you, you wouldn’t want us to think that you’re a grimy little hater. Would you? So show us your pristine moral purity and condemn Imperial Japan.
    There are the souls of tens of millions of Chinese and other Asian people that suffered and died at the hands of the Japanese that cry out for justice. Give them something ASSoka. They’re waiting.

  694. Vlad Krandz June 23, 2012 at 1:09 pm #

    Don’t be afraid of Fascism Bill – it’s just classical Zionism or present day Likud. Jews aren’t against Fascism per se, just Fascism for other people. You want us to be Capitalist and thus easy to destroy with Communism or Plutocracy.
    I admit early Zionism did lean toward Communism and that many were sincere in that. But in any case, the were National Socialists first and foremost. As the high school drop out skinhead scrawls a Star of David equals the Swastika – he reveals an intuitive grasp of reality that eludes the more “educated” – programmed.

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  695. asoka.. June 23, 2012 at 1:11 pm #

    Hierarchy again, always hierarchy if one wants to understand anything.
    Oh, the feminists are going to hate you for that one.

  696. asoka.. June 23, 2012 at 1:17 pm #

    Give them something ASSoka
    Now you are just being juvenile with ASSoka.
    I prefer not to continue this with you, Rhino.
    It was nice talking with you this morning, until you turned juvenile.

  697. jackieblue2u June 23, 2012 at 1:19 pm #

    thank you.
    hope i do.
    peace

  698. Rhino June 23, 2012 at 1:21 pm #

    58,000 young Americans and a million (or two million) Vietnamese wasn’t in vain. – rhino
    That is where you and I differ. Those deaths were completely in vain. – Asoka
    . – Asoka
    But didn’t you say “…the world did not become communist”?
    The communist world and communist ideology and methodology ran out of gas. And credibility. Surely the fact that the West – and by that I mean mostly the USA – violently resisted violent conquest by communists must partly account for this communist failure? Then those deaths surely were not in vain.
    The souls of those departed people that died in Vietnam are surely looking down waiting for this recognition from you that their suffering and death wasn’t for naught. Surely you can give it to them?

  699. asoka.. June 23, 2012 at 1:26 pm #

    The communists in Vietnam were nationalists and never intended to take over the world. That was the lie to get 58,000 Americans killed.
    Is Vietnam today a one party Communist run country?
    Did our failure to “stop them there” lead to a communist takeover of the world?

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  700. Rhino June 23, 2012 at 1:27 pm #

    Surely you’re not minimizing the suffering of so many millions of Asians are you? I hope not. They’re not Caucasian like you and American but surely that doesn’t diminish the worth of their own lives does it?

  701. asoka.. June 23, 2012 at 1:36 pm #

    You don’t care about the suffering of Asians. You don’t believe all lives are equally sacred. If you did, you would not condone vaporizing Japanese cities.

  702. Vlad Krandz June 23, 2012 at 1:36 pm #

    No chance T will go up 39 or 40? It did in years past, but the Market was better then I guess.

  703. Rhino June 23, 2012 at 1:41 pm #

    Yes, yes, they were “nationalist”. Of course. So the fact of their communist ideology, the fact that they imprisoned so many Vietnamese in their “re-education camps”, the fact of the material support from the USSR and China are irrelevancies. Because they were “nationalist”.
    Did our failure to “stop them there” lead to a communist takeover of the world? – Assoka
    As I said before asshole the fact that the USA put up a fight not only in Vietnam but in Korea were material facts that dissuaded the communists. Or rather persuaded them that this was a global fight they could never win.
    And not only those wars but in the tens of millions of man years expended in Western Europe and Japan and Korea and the trillions of dollars expended on arms and munitions.
    Communism is safely in its grave as are most of the communist despots that inflicted so much death and misery. Good riddance to all of it.

  704. asoka.. June 23, 2012 at 1:44 pm #

    violently resisted violent conquest by communists must partly account for this communist failure
    Violent conquest? Or nationalist liberation movement from USA imposed dictators?
    Communist failure?
    China. Vietnam. Cuba. Laos. North Korea.
    Communist China will soon be the world’s leading economy.

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  705. Bustin J June 23, 2012 at 1:45 pm #

    Every week on CFN we talk about defence to keep the Mexicans out.
    “Focus more on the Chinese. Aren’t they the reason we will need to spend more trillions of big government dollars on our “common defence”?”
    Ostensibly. But more realistically, it is because “defense”-related industries are a exempt from non-military rules of commerce.
    “…the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country. — Hermann Goring (from The Nuremberg Diary (1947)”
    The rules of political behavior, human behavior, and so forth are known quantities.
    You start when they’re young. You teach them the reality of nature taking care of life on the farm, the means to self-sufficiency. You help integrate them into the society. You teach them wisdom and skills and foundations of physical, mental, and emotional health by lesson and example.
    And then there is clusterfuck nation. Land where my fathers died, land of the pilgrim’s pride, from every mountainside, let freedom drone.

  706. Rhino June 23, 2012 at 1:49 pm #

    As I’ve said a multitude of times previously, dropping the nukes was a miserable alternative but given the other possible courses of action maybe was the least worst.
    Well meaning and intelligent people have argued this and come down on different sides of the issue. But what they had that you don’t have is a deep appreciation of the awful circumstances faced in 1945. None of this imbecilic, easy breasy “just say no” horseshit.
    And I’ve asked a multitude of times previously, what would you have done? You claim to have answered the question, yet I’ve never seen it. I asked you once nicely to replicate it in point form but you didn’t. Surely we could benefit from your great wisdom on the matter. And I don’t mean cut and paste from wikipedia what someone else wrote.

  707. welles June 23, 2012 at 1:51 pm #

    Now, do you grasp why the people of his hometown did not recognize him, after perhaps 17 years absence? And why he could sleep on a boat being tossed around by waves, while his companions were almost crying in fear of perishing?
    Isn’t it also obvious why this confusion started?

    I have no clue what you are trying to say. Stop being oblique and just say straight out what you want us to get from your post.
    Furthermore, in an era in which people died at 25 years of age I can well imagine that no one would recognize him after 17 years – most of the people who knew him were likely already dead, and the rest would think he had already died as well.
    Now, tell us all “why it’s obvious that this confusion started”?
    And furthermore2, there is no way you can be sure that he slept on a boat calmly while his companions were in fear of capsizing and drowning.
    Just because someone handed you a damn book?
    You have to be a first-rate fool to swallow anything that comes along your way without reasoning it out.
    Tell me this, truthfully – why won’t you also believe me if I say I know a man who walks on water, and that you have to believe me without seeing for yourself?
    You’ll never believe me – unless you’re told from the time you’re a child that it happened. You have been trained well, like a porpoise, up to the point of feeling you piously believe what you’ve been force-fed.
    You don’t even know you just *think* you believe what you *believe*, that’s how good you’ve been hoodwinked. It’s called culture, and it’s as native and unthinking as your native language, it just tumbles out — without critique or thought.
    You will forever be blind unless you wake up and use the rationality God gave you.
    peace peaceniks

  708. asoka.. June 23, 2012 at 1:53 pm #

    Surely we could benefit from your great wisdom on the matter.
    Yes, I have answered it several times, including today a few minutes ago.
    But you qualify my answer as “easy breasy” … you do not appreciate my wisdom.
    It’s as if I am scattering pearls about.

  709. Rhino June 23, 2012 at 1:57 pm #

    Compare how China is now to how it was under Mao. Don’t remember Mao do you? You have no knowledge of those times do you? Do you know anyone that lived in China in those days?
    Nowadays, private business in China is flourishing. So is private ownership. There are more millionaires there than you can shake a stick at. So you’re trying to tell me this is communism?

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  710. Bustin J June 23, 2012 at 2:01 pm #

    Meanwhile…
    Biodiversity is crashing worldwide. Government budget cut axes are falling on environmental engineers, people that study biological change, climate change, geomorphology… basic science.
    Such basic science is considered unnecessary as long as the official position is to ignore scientific facts and research as politically verboten.
    By the way, I never realized (mostly because I suspected as much) that Alex Jones is a disgusting fat pig. A different sort of “pablum puker” but not very much dissimilar than El Rushbo.
    What I am finding, doing in-field sociological “research” is that the general public is as ignorant about science as the studies suggest. This is troubling because that leads to fundamental ignorance, which of course festers into a malignant sort of mental decrepitude.
    People that don’t know how to think about reality or how to evaluate claims about reality, are easy prey for headless Zombie memes like the type spouted by Alex Jones and others. I think its credible that this kind of fundamental ignorance leads to despair, depression, and eventually unemployment, suicide, and worse.
    I suppose men were always vulnerable to being lead into slaughter.

  711. asoka.. June 23, 2012 at 2:02 pm #

    The IMF recently made some proposals.
    The IMF’s recommendations drew rebukes from Beijing. Dong Tao, an economist at Credit Suisse in Hong Kong, said while the World Bank’s recommendations were sensible, it was unlikely that they would all be implemented due to political sensitivities around any form of privatization.
    Why would China oppose “any form of privatization”?
    Because China is a communist country! Duh?

  712. Kyooshtik June 23, 2012 at 2:08 pm #

    It’s as if I am scattering pearls about.
    ================
    about what?
    Oh, you mean “before swine.”

  713. asoka.. June 23, 2012 at 2:10 pm #

    Not only was I alive and well and opposing Mao, I was also preaching against Mao to my fellow leftists who believed “violence is sometimes necessary” like you believe.
    Read Pyramids of Sacrifice by Peter Berger.
    The world today [written in 1976] is divided into ideological camps. The adherents of each tell us with great assurance where we’re at and what we should do about it. We should not believe any of them.

  714. Rhino June 23, 2012 at 2:12 pm #

    You didn’t tell us what the IMF was proposing did you?
    And gosh it couldn’t be that the Chinese government officials are bullshitting bullshitters could it?
    I know people that grew up and lived in China in the 1950s and 1960s and people that live and work there now. So who do I listen to? Your nonsense or the people that grew up there and worked there?

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  715. asoka.. June 23, 2012 at 2:14 pm #

    CORRECTION
    [written in 1974, the paperback came out in 1976]
    The world today is divided into ideological camps. The adherents of each tell us with great assurance where we’re at and what we should do about it. We should not believe any of them.
    I’ve been “anti-communist” since 1967, in the sense that I opposed violence used by any political group.
    Maybe I’ve been anti-communist longer than Rhino.
    But I am pro-communism, as defined by Wikipedia, and as practiced by Jesus Christ.

  716. asoka.. June 23, 2012 at 2:17 pm #

    So who do I listen to? Your nonsense or the people that grew up there and worked there?
    Rhino, I respect your freedom. I would never try to violently force you to listen to my nonsense. You are doing it of your own free will. And, having been rabidly anti-communist since 1967, I am entitled to my nonsense.

  717. asoka.. June 23, 2012 at 2:20 pm #

    I had fellow leftists get angry at me because I listened to this Beatles song:
    You say you want a revolution
    Well, you know
    We all want to change the world
    You tell me that it’s evolution
    Well, you know
    We all want to change the world
    But when you talk about destruction
    Don’t you know that you can count me out
    Don’t you know it’s gonna be all right
    You say you’ll change the constitution
    Well, you know
    We all want to change your head
    You tell me it’s the institution
    Well, you know
    You better free you mind instead
    But if you go carrying pictures of chairman Mao
    You ain’t going to make it with anyone anyhow
    Don’t you know it’s gonna be all right

  718. Rhino June 23, 2012 at 2:21 pm #

    Yes, I have answered it several times, including today a few minutes ago. – Asoka
    You’ve never answered the question. Not several minutes ago or ever. You have nothing of any worth to offer on the issue.
    Just the same old crumbling, dusty, cobwebbed talking points spouted by campus “sophisticates” and “intellectuals” for decades now. It’s old, it’s boring, with no connection or relevance to the real world. You have nothing.
    And I see that you still haven’t denounced Imperial Japan for trying to develop a nuke. No surprise there either.

  719. asoka.. June 23, 2012 at 2:24 pm #

    You didn’t tell us what the IMF was proposing did you?
    The IMF was proposing that China change from communism to capitalism.
    You are a strange anti-communist. You can’t even admit China is communist. If you don’t recognize your enemy, they will eat your lunch. I have no enemies.
    China must relax its grip on industry and move towards a free-market economy, the World Bank said on Monday in a report that forecast the country would become the world’s largest economy before 2030.
    http://www.cnbc.com/id/46537810/China_to_Be_Largest_Economy_Before_2030_World_Bank

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  720. Buck Stud June 23, 2012 at 2:27 pm #

    Q,
    What’s up with the written swags of simplicity, hanging without a weighted middle and bereft of panache like an Anti Soak utterance? Especially from one who claims to be a connoisseur of the written word?
    From you, Q, we have come to expect festoons, hanging heavily with paragraphs of thought.
    Or am I am thinking of somebody else 😉

  721. asoka.. June 23, 2012 at 2:28 pm #

    Why do you continue to engage me? You already know everything about me, all of my thoughts, and how tired and repetitive they are. Not that it’s any of my business, but it seems you are wasting your time.
    I HEREBY THUNDEROUSLY DENOUNCE IMPERIAL JAPAN IF THEY WERE REALLY TRYING TO DEVELOP AN ATOMIC BOMB.
    I HEREBY THUNDEROUSLY DENOUNCE ANY COUNTRY AND ANY AND ALL NON-STATE ACTORS WHO POSSESS NUCLEAR WEAPONS.

  722. Rhino June 23, 2012 at 2:29 pm #

    You are a strange anti-communist. You can’t even admit China is communist. – Asoka
    WAS communist asshole. But no more. Don’t be an imbecile.

  723. Rhino June 23, 2012 at 2:32 pm #

    HEREBY THUNDEROUSLY DENOUNCE IMPERIAL JAPAN IF THEY WERE REALLY TRYING TO DEVELOP AN ATOMIC BOMB – ASSoka
    We expected nothing stupider and you didn’t disappoint.

  724. Kyooshtik June 23, 2012 at 2:36 pm #

    Every week on CFN we talk about defence to keep the Mexicans out.
    ==============
    I never like seeing white people affect black vernacular.
    it’s the fence

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  725. Rhino June 23, 2012 at 2:42 pm #

    Sorry, I was busy with asoka.
    I share your attitudes wrt Iran or Syria.
    I think that private interests are best served by peace being maintained. War is a nasty disruptive and destructive business. Always a last resort. Sometimes you have to go at it. But do it sparingly.
    And it’s generally ruinous to bottom lines. War diverts human and financial and physical capital to non-productive use. A tank can blow holes in walls. A truck can move produce from farm to grocery store. What is of more benefit? Some businesses benefit from war making. But I would contend that most do not.

  726. asoka.. June 23, 2012 at 2:49 pm #

    WAS communist asshole.
    When was the Communist Party replaced? The Communists are strategically using capitalism, that’s all.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-13900296

  727. Kyooshtik June 23, 2012 at 3:01 pm #

    1. What’s up with the written swags of simplicity,
    2. From you, Q, we have come to expect festoons, hanging heavily with paragraphs of thought.
    =================
    Re 1. In the defense business when preparing a cost estimate if we did not have rigorous support for some number we labeled it as a “semi wild-ass guess” (swag). In what sense was my post a written “swag?”
    Re 2. Since the paragraphs are the substance and the festoons are the decorations, I would word the sentence “…we have come to expect paragraphs hanging heavily with festoons of thought.”

  728. dale June 23, 2012 at 3:18 pm #

    Bill,
    No offense intended, but below I have responded to a few of your points. BTW — The “Dancing Masters” book is quite old, and wasn’t terribly good to begin with. It’s now way out of date.
    ‘Serious skeptical physicists largely scoff that they (Buddhism and Quantum Physics) are related.’
    Not true, unless you regard John Wheeler, Steven Hawking and Anton Zeillinger as “not serious”. The reality is they would make any physicists’ list of the top 5 in the last 30 years. That there are skeptics, or absolute materialist is true, but they are the school increasingly less regarded as serious. Hawking’s book, The Grand Design” is largely a refutation of his previous position as a ‘materialist’.
    “Quantum entities aren’t waves and particles at the same time, but more accurately, they display qualities of both.”
    A nice high school physics teacher’s explanation of the issue about 30 years ago. A more accurate description is “when you go looking for particles, you find particles” when you go looking for waves, you find waves. Nothing displays the qualities of both.
    “The explanation is not mystic.”
    Never said it was, it’s just science.
    Your understanding of the presence of an electron is flawed but too complicated to discuss here, suffice it to say, electrons do not HAVE a specific location and a velocity at the same time. Not that you can’t detect both at the same time. Try to wrap your mind around that.
    Yes quantum entanglement is mind blowing, and if it doesn’t cause you to question the commonly understood view of reality, then you have no understanding of it at all.

  729. Kyooshtik June 23, 2012 at 3:29 pm #

    I’m popping popcorn now.
    ============
    Using what heat source, sunshine and a magnifying glass?

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  730. dale June 23, 2012 at 3:39 pm #

    Vlad, the truth is, your idea of “knowledge” is to find a factoid in a book and grasp onto it, without any real substantial understanding. That’s at the heart of your problems, along with the fact that you are more emotional that an entire quilting party of spinsters. FYI — Madhyamaka Theory is not the position of all of Buddhism, there are various schools, holding different views on the nature of reality.

  731. Vlad Krandz June 23, 2012 at 4:19 pm #

    And you don’t really admire the Founding Fathers. You just want us disarm unilaterally and be destroyed.

  732. Buck Stud June 23, 2012 at 4:22 pm #

    Re 1. It felt “flat” to me, like a mimetic echo of Anti Soak.
    Re 2. At first I thought you had a very good retort but the more I mulled over your below statement the less enthusiastic I became:

    Since the paragraphs are the substance and the festoons are the decorations, I would word the sentence “…we have come to expect paragraphs hanging heavily with festoons of thought.”

    If the paragraphs are the “substance” then they should be the ones hanging heavily with thought. You’re arguing that “decoration” – the frivolity of ‘less substance’ – should be the thought. Not buying that.
    Of course, since the “festoons” in this hypothetical context also comprise the paragraphs – form merging with function – your point was a false distinction to begin with. Unfortunately, you then doubled down with another false assertion.

  733. Vlad Krandz June 23, 2012 at 4:29 pm #

    Dale if you want to worship quantum particles and call it Buddhism go right ahead.
    You don’t know what you’re talking about and I hope you didn’t pay alot of money to get this crap “teaching”.
    The Quantum Field might be an apt symbol for several aspect of Buddhism as I indicated to Asoka. But it certainly isn’t “It”, the no thing in itself.
    The Middle Eastern Dance of the 7 Veils is also full of Esoteric Symbolism – as is Mozart’s “The Magic Flute”. None of these is the Buddha, Dale. You’re mistaking the finger pointing at the moon for the moon.

  734. asoka.. June 23, 2012 at 5:01 pm #

    Rhino, you have a severe credibility problem if you claim to be anti-communist and then cannot identify a communist country with over one billion people.
    I repeat my question:
    When was the Communist Party replaced as rulers of China?
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-13900296
    The Chinese Communists are strategically using capitalism, that’s all.
    Just because they are wealthier than the USA does not mean they are capitalists. It just means they have realized how to use capitalism to eventually own the USA. I don’t normally make predictions, but here is one: The Chinese Communist victory over America will happen without firing a single shot.
    It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it! – Upton Sinclair.
    When China offers you a path to make a huge fortune, you start to have a hard time understanding how this can hurt your own country.
    China offers our business leaders an amazing deal – a deal that they can’t refuse. The owners and managers of our companies get really, really rich if they play along with China. Never mind if the companies go away later, they’re rich.
    In fact, China has essentially recruited our own business leaders to fight against their own United States government.
    You are an openly communist sympathizer, Rhino, an apologist for Communist China.

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  735. Kyooshtik June 23, 2012 at 5:27 pm #

    At first I thought you had a very good retort but the more I mulled over…
    ================
    Perhaps you have outwitted me here.
    Be that as it may, I have especially liked the word festooned since hearing John McCain rant that “We had a bill before the Senate festooned with so many earmarks and breaks for the oil companies it looked like a Christmas Tree.” That’s a paraphrase.
    And I had to repair to my Random House to get the full sense you intended with the word swag: a festoon heavily weighted in the middle etc etc.

  736. dale June 23, 2012 at 6:00 pm #

    The Quantum Field might be an apt symbol for several aspect of Buddhism as I indicated to Asoka. But it certainly isn’t “It”, the no thing in itself.
    —————————–
    Your reply has, as usual, absolutely nothing to do with what I said.

  737. Senneth June 23, 2012 at 6:29 pm #

    LBennett/Being There,
    Thanks for the link to C.A.F. Listened to the clip and have sent it around.
    Ozone,
    Thanks for posting links to Information Clearinghouse. Always interesting.

  738. dale June 23, 2012 at 6:54 pm #

    “Quantum entities aren’t waves and particles at the same time, but more accurately, they display qualities of both.”
    A nice high school physics teacher’s explanation of the issue about 30 years ago. A more accurate description is “when you go looking for particles, you find particles” when you go looking for waves, you find waves. Nothing displays the qualities of both
    ————————————
    This is one of the problems with quantum mechanics, until you can actually grasp the implications of the observer and what that implies with respect to materialism and reality, it is nearly impossible to understand. Gathering at least a workable understanding can be done by most people, but it’s more like a realization, rather than like solving a math problem. Few people, even scientists, take the time.

  739. dale June 23, 2012 at 7:03 pm #

    I think I’ve spent enough time on this, if you are really interested you can gather information from those more qualified than I. Hawking’s book is a good start. If you just want to argue, Vlad will be happy to oblige.
    Now, I’ve got an algebra class to teach at the primate center, so I’ll be moving along.

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  740. Buck Stud June 23, 2012 at 7:46 pm #

    Let’s not worry about outwitting each other Q; let’s let the bubbly words flow from our fingertips After all, it’s “The Season of Magic” and “Stalker Bitch” is close on our heels, Glenn.

  741. scott June 23, 2012 at 8:30 pm #

    This is one of the problems with quantum mechanics, until you can actually grasp the implications of the observer and what that implies with respect to materialism and reality, it is nearly impossible to understand. Gathering at least a workable understanding can be done by most people, but it’s more like a realization, rather than like solving a math problem. Few people, even scientists, take the time.
    Clearly something only a hedge fund manager would understand.
    I “see” what you are saying.

  742. scott June 23, 2012 at 8:34 pm #

    Rhino, you have a severe credibility problem if you claim to be anti-communist and then cannot identify a communist country with over one billion people.
    I repeat my question:
    When was the Communist Party replaced as rulers of China?
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-13900296
    The Chinese Communists are strategically using capitalism, that’s all.
    Just because they are wealthier than the USA does not mean they are capitalists. It just means they have realized how to use capitalism to eventually own the USA. I don’t normally make predictions, but here is one: The Chinese Communist victory over America will happen without firing a single shot.
    It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it! – Upton Sinclair.
    When China offers you a path to make a huge fortune, you start to have a hard time understanding how this can hurt your own country.
    China offers our business leaders an amazing deal – a deal that they can’t refuse. The owners and managers of our companies get really, really rich if they play along with China. Never mind if the companies go away later, they’re rich.
    In fact, China has essentially recruited our own business leaders to fight against their own United States government.
    You are an openly communist sympathizer, Rhino, an apologist for Communist China.

    It’s about time you came around to my way of thinking.

  743. asoka.. June 23, 2012 at 9:25 pm #

    It’s about time you came around to my way of thinking.
    LOL!
    It is Rhino, the running dog communist (z?u g?u ??, lackey or lapdog), who needs to be re-educated. Good thing he doesn’t express his ideas in communist China. He would then learn how communism works in China.
    Rhino is confusing a temporary capitalist economic strategy, for developing a stronger communist military, with the political realities of communist China. China restricts foreign investment ownership in almost all industries. Very few barriers exist to Chinese ownership of USA companies.
    Rhino is weak and gullible and easily swayed by the running dog capitalists. Rhino has dollar signs in his eyes, but he doesn’t realize that Chinese ownership of USA debt means China can put the squeeze on the USA until the USA collapses.
    This is already starting. Compared with July 2011, the total amount of U.S. debt held in April 2012 fell by 169.4 billion, a decrease of 12.88%

  744. Widespreadpanic7 June 23, 2012 at 11:31 pm #

    I agree, antisoak, things have been in decline for a long time. (altho today, on an exquisite saturday afternoon, searching for Indian Relics in the meadows along the banks of the Farmington River, I looked around and thought, “can any place be more beautiful than this?”)
    I was just commenting on crude oil, that’s all. Peak oil isn’t on anybody’s radar screen. Its hardly even mentioned on this site, a site that started out dedicated to the subject of peak oil. There are no shortages, and the price is coming down. Who knows, a year from now it may be a different story.
    –WSP7

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  745. asoka.. June 24, 2012 at 12:14 am #

    WSP7, I’ve made four posts on peak oil this week. I will try to make more posts. Four isn’t very many.

  746. asoka.. June 24, 2012 at 1:02 am #

    Speaking of peak oil, WSP7, I have probably mentioned this before, but what the heck.
    WSP7, before we can even talk about Peak Oil, we have to know how much oil we are talking about.
    Oil production has been measured by the Hubbert linearization, using the logistic and Gompertz models. (They calculate normalizations for the changes in the rate of production to depict the trends of oil production)
    Estimated cumulative production based upon the Hubbert linearization of the oil history indicates a total ultimately recoverable resource (URR) for all liquids of 2.6 terabarrels (Tb).
    The Gompertz URR is projected to be near 4 Tb for all liquids including non-traditional sources. But since on CFN we all know about EROEI and don’t want desperate measures to be taken that destroy our drinking water and environment, let’s ignore the non-traditional sources.
    Besides we have corroboration of the Hubbert linearization with the United States Geological Survey estimate of 2.5 Tb URR. That very closely approximates the projected 2.6 Tb URR.
    The normalization of the change of rate of oil production to the rate of production shows a peak potential of 95 million barrels production per day based on the projected URR of 2.6 Tb. (Though we currently are using less than 90 million barrels per day worldwide, I’ll use the higher figure to allow for future demand increases)
    So, what does all that mean? A terabarrel is one thousand billion barrels. How long will 2.6 terabarrels last?
    Well, divide 2.6 Tb by the daily production rate and we have 27.3684211 years of oil supply left. Unless we drastically reduce consumption … and make it last longer.
    The biggest waste of oil is by the military and its wars. The military uses 93% of our domestic oil consumption in the USA.
    Are you ready to reduce the size and scope of the USA military, WSP7?
    Do you still want to talk about Peak Oil and What is Happening, knowing that our giant big government military is the biggest waster of fossil fuels? Do you dare say that out loud to your friends and family?

  747. dale June 24, 2012 at 1:03 am #

    Clearly something only a hedge fund manager would understand.
    ————————————
    A hedge fund manager wouldn’t bother to think about it unless you paid him $25 million, wether he understood it or not.

  748. asoka.. June 24, 2012 at 1:12 am #

    CORRECTION
    The military uses more than 93 percent of the U.S. government energy consumption.
    SOURCE:
    How Much Energy Does the U.S. Military Consume
    http://www.dailyenergyreport.com/2011/01/how-much-energy-does-the-u-s-military-consume/
    (The Daily Energy Report)

  749. asoka.. June 24, 2012 at 1:18 am #

    The average American might pay $4 per gallon of gasoline.
    The price can soar to $42 a gallon for military grade jet fuel delivered through aerial refueling.

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  750. anti soak June 24, 2012 at 1:31 am #

    [wether]
    Whether or not Lord Buddha is the ultimate Physicist
    I dont know. Glad I didnt participate in that
    discussion.
    Have you read Meher Baba?

  751. anti soak June 24, 2012 at 1:32 am #

    Its Da Bomb! @@@@@@@

  752. asoka.. June 24, 2012 at 1:42 am #

    KC-130 refueling tankers have a removable 3,600 US gallon stainless steel fuel tank carried inside the cargo compartment.
    Refueling at $40 per gallon times 3,600 gallons would cost US$144,000.
    You remember that the next time you tank up. You are paying US$4.00 per gallon for your vehicle to refuel, and through your taxes you are paying US$144,000 for a KC-130 tanker to refuel.
    This information comes from Wikipedia, and according to Prog4Spam, Wikipedia does not contain any errors that he is aware of, so we can trust it.

  753. Vlad Krandz June 24, 2012 at 2:58 am #

    Hawking is an agnostic. His studies haven’t brought him any spiritual knowledge at all. He actually says that he hopes there is no God – a bizarre point of view indicative of great egotism and ignorance. But nice try, Dale.
    You didn’t get enough nectar last time. This time I hope the cat vomits nectar on your face.

  754. Vlad Krandz June 24, 2012 at 3:28 am #

    He didn’t talk much about physics since physics is the study of matter but rather form, and our attachment to it. There is the idea of the “kalapa” or fundamenal particle that can be experienced in insight meditation on the body. Some say that goes back to the Buddha.
    Some modern meditation masters talk about the science of meditation or spirituality. But they are using the word loosely in terms of a system or systematic study. Nothing about focusing on matter and studying with instruments and then forming mathmatical models. How is that Liberating or productive of ultimate happiness?
    Meher’s writings show a fine understanding of the hierarchical nature of the Universe.

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  755. Vlad Krandz June 24, 2012 at 3:35 am #

    Did you send it to the White House? Maybe we can get Obama on here.

  756. BeingThere June 24, 2012 at 8:08 am #

    R. You said:
    (WAR)And it’s generally ruinous to bottom lines. War diverts human and financial and physical capital to non-productive use.
    Yes, I would agree, I’ve often said that globalism was about making the world safe for McDonald’s. In fact Kissinger wanted to open China to the west for Coca Cola. When I was in China in ’88, there was Kentucky Fried Chicken, McDonald’s and lots o’Coke. (the Chinese are experiencing obesity problems now.)
    However, part of the model that we are using for world hegemony is not only to monetize the world economy to put countries in debt for the big white elephant sale of their commons, but also to use war as a way of feeding the privatized contractors. Money is being made coming and going, but not for the citizenry.
    After 9/11 they have created many privatized national security companies as well.
    So they devised a way for the govt. to supply big contracts to the monopoly companies, like Haliburton, Bechtel and numerous privatized fighters like Khaki & Associates and Xe (aka Blackwater) etc.–I can go on and on, but you get the picture.
    War is profitable for some, but not for the Nation. Our motivation it seems is to devise ways for private govt. contractors to make money on the taxpayers.

  757. ozone June 24, 2012 at 8:29 am #

    K,
    Thanks for re-linking to “The Power Principle”.
    Very well-done, clear and comprehensive film without a wasted minute.
    Is it dangerously subversive [to some]?
    Absolutely, reality does have a way of intruding from time to time.

  758. BeingThere June 24, 2012 at 9:01 am #

    Rhino,
    One more thing, I agree with you about the Chinese. Look at how when the policy is free to move in and out of doctrinaire thinking, they have the flexibility to grow.
    When you go purist you lose, my friends. Whether it’s Communism or inverted communism it becomes an abject failure. That’s where we are going and I feel that the Rep and Libertarians are marching to the tune of the HIVE without thinking.
    Libertarianism at it’s worst.
    How many of you watched Bill Maher this week?
    Nick Gillespie, Libertarian and writer asserted some very troubling arguments.
    First lets talk about GMOs in food. The Libertarian view is that there should be no labeling of GMOs on our food products. The fact is the 70% of our food has GMOs. Shouldn’t the free market they tout decide?
    So in his world of “free markets” people should not be informed what is in their food, they should just buy, buy buy…. But the industrial food companies, one of our Soviet style privatized monopolies, can have total free reign without these cumbersome regulations the Republicans are railing about 24/7.
    We are not to enjoy the free market but the corporations must have total freedom to do what they want for the bottom line. His argument: GMOs are perfectly safe!
    Even Mort Zuckerman the neoliberal extrodinare had to say he wants to know what he’s eating!!!!
    Later actor Mark Ruffalo, anti-fracking activist came on and again, Mr. Gillespie asserted that franking is perfectly safe. Yes, yes pay no attention to the flames coming out of your sink. Why you can light your cigarettes with that—can you say Ka-Boom!
    Ruffalo points out that the casing for the pipes, ya know the pipes that bring the water filled with chemicals is breaking way beneath the ground and infiltrating the ground water. One wonders whether giant sink holes will form outta this too.
    So here’s what I think the message from the right is all about and you can disagree all you want but here it goes……
    We are all born for one purpose and one purpose only. To make the top CEOs rich. So you little units, the Agribusiness and energy corporations can expose you to poisons, make you obese and give you all kinds of health problems which you can’t identify.
    Then you go to the Medial industry for Big Pharama, Big insurance and big medical apparatus and pay through the nose to get well or alas, die. If you are too poor to afford this, then in the words of Alan Grayson, “Die and please die quickly.”

  759. messianicdruid June 24, 2012 at 9:17 am #

    Now, tell us all “why it’s obvious that this confusion started”?
    Because we are using words. I was pointing out a couple often overlooked {or culturally interpreted}, and then you complicated the matter by, appropriately, adding meaning[s] to a word.
    “You have to be a first-rate fool to swallow anything that comes along your way without reasoning it out.”
    Why are you assuming that I have not “reasoned it out”. Because you have not come to the same conclusion? Or, because we were not considering all of the evidence?
    “…there is no way you can be sure that he slept on a boat calmly while his companions were in fear of capsizing and drowning.”
    I guess this depends on how “sure” you have to be about it. Having “reasoned it out” I conclude he had spent a lotta time on a boat, his uncle used boats in his business, his daddy had passed away, he had four brothers at home to run the “tekton” business, the Nazarites did not know him at 30 years of age, so I conclude he was away, helping his uncle in the tin business.
    These arguments over minutia, and finding fault with uninspired, or unassisted guess work, are inevitable, as well as essential, but tiresome. Kids showing off their toys.
    Intelligent people do this every day in many other areas of interest. As our awareness of the maze grows we lose our ability to consider it in its entirety. The element of trust will always come up.
    I wasn’t there. I have to trust someone to tell me what happened. Then I have to consider the sources, and like you say, reason it out. Its okay if you come to a different path. Let everyone be fully convinced in his own mind.

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  760. charliefoxtrot June 24, 2012 at 9:38 am #

    …Operation Fuck Job Theater is on…going after holder, now, for what?! three years of inaction where it s needed; action where it aint; criminal negligence in my book- and now press about some “failed” gun-running? little late for legitimacy, darrel…
    @beingthere- right on the money…seems to be built on the henry ford model of factory towns…which didn t work out too well for the little guy…! i don t remember who posted it; but recently it was pointed out here that we as a society (humans) are doomed for as long as some group of people want something for nothing- investment for return, usury, empire etc…
    and i know i might sound like a socialist sometimes; having lived at the bottom of the dogpile, i guess i have a not-so-rose-colored point of view of the stratification of resources & opportunities…i wonder if there is a label already for Socially Responsible Democratic Capitalism…

  761. BeingThere June 24, 2012 at 10:01 am #

    This gun-running operation was started by W. and Co. and further botched by Obama & Co.
    But yeah, the Dems bent over and said the past is the past—we must move on and do nothing with Bush, Cheney et al.
    Notice how the jungle fighters-Reps go after the Justice Dept. They will attack every way possible.

  762. charliefoxtrot June 24, 2012 at 10:27 am #

    …jungle fighters…! i know it all really started sliding w/ JFK(all conspiracy theory aside) and Viet Nam; i was just old enough to see the iran/contra nicaragua cocaine/CIA fiasco; in the ensuing years i ve seen Our, The People’s failure to hold Raygun and Butch and their entire administration to account as the linchpin of the steady mission creep of the take-over from within of our Democratic Republic by Corporate Fascists and lawless power-hungry psychopaths… IMnotsoHO…

  763. mika. June 24, 2012 at 10:40 am #

    There you go. An Horse’s ass you is.

  764. mika. June 24, 2012 at 10:44 am #

    Thanks, Bill, I was just passing by..
    Bill, the offer still stands. You have my email!

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  765. dale June 24, 2012 at 11:14 am #

    Have you read Meher Baba?
    ———————————
    Never heard of him. Never really got why Ram Dass was suppose to be a big deal either. In general terms, I think Hinduism suffers from being abused and distorted almost as much as Christianity.

  766. charliefoxtrot June 24, 2012 at 11:30 am #

    Holy cow! evolution works, david, it really works! apparently the grass has learned to produce cyanide!!!

  767. charliefoxtrot June 24, 2012 at 11:39 am #

    @%$#!! that was supposed to link to addictinginfo.org…anyway, apparently the rancher had been feeding beef on the same patch of gmo grass for 15 years; shortly after being turned out this time, they started convulsing and dying (15 out of 18)…tests show that the grass was emitting cyanide…TELL me that is an act of god rather than an organism learning on its own to protect itself…! ‘goddies’…sorry, but damn!

  768. anti soak June 24, 2012 at 11:53 am #

    If yr talking ‘Harry Krishna’ [temples and idols]
    thats Hinduism for the masses.
    Swami Chinmayananda, ‘real’ Hinduism.
    You might want to go to Amazon, Meher Baba ‘Discourses’.

  769. anti soak June 24, 2012 at 11:56 am #

    Oh, Baba Ram Das. He was /is someone who ‘dumbed down’ Hinduism. As in ‘go chant with baba ram das, and feel you ‘got something’ ‘.
    His book ‘MIRACLE OF LOVE’ is good, but its about a Buddha.
    He knew Kalu, yr teachers teacher.

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  770. anti soak June 24, 2012 at 11:59 am #

    Rockefeller [when China was closed] in the 1970s went behind the Great Wall, to see about opening banks!
    See : NONE DARE CALL IT CONSPIRACY + the Birchers various books.
    They were the first [I think] to say Govts would be subjects of Corporations, in turn owned by the rich.

  771. Kyooshtik June 24, 2012 at 12:43 pm #

    If you are going to enunciate the letter h…
    ============
    There is a word for what I was describing about the enunciated h in horse vs the silent h version usually attributed to lower class Brits. The word is aspiration. And, conversely, when you say ‘orse that silent h is said to be unaspirated. I learned this last night while reading The Pickwick Papers by Charles Dickens and simultaneously listening to the audio version narrated by the incredibly talented Patrick Hull.
    I cannot recommend this way of reading (while listening) too highly. The experience is ten times richer.

  772. Widespreadpanic7 June 24, 2012 at 12:47 pm #

    Well Asoka, it sounds like you’re some sort of expert on the oil industry in addition to being an expert on everything else. Me, I’m just looking around and seeing everyone driving everywhere, and the prices going down, that’s all.
    You claim the Armed Forces ‘use 98% of domestically produced oil’. I know in WW2 it took almost 7 billion barrels of oil to defeat the Axis enemies and most of that came from OK, Texas and Cal. It drained our resources and its one of the reasons FDR turned to Arabia for future supplies. But now the US Military, even at the peak of the Iraq War, was using less than 500,000 bpd, out of total domestic production of 7 million bpd. How is that 93%?
    It looks like Obamas much touted ‘autobiography’ wasn’t totally honest about everything. As a matter of fact it turns out it was a bunch of lies. Nobody even knows who really wrote it. What a fraud that guy turned out to be! Until recently ‘The Autobiography of US Grant’ was recognized as the best of its kind in our history. I think it remains the best.
    –WSP7

  773. Kyooshtik June 24, 2012 at 1:14 pm #

    it turns out it was a bunch of lies.
    ===============
    Or, as we who are accomplished in the use of more colorful metaphors would say, a bunch of crock.

  774. dale June 24, 2012 at 1:47 pm #

    Vlad,
    I did not suggest Hawking was a Buddhist, in fact, his religious views are irrelevant to the discussion. The point is, in his most recent views he applies the principals of quantum mechanics to the entire universe, which produces results highly congruent with the nature of reality and ontology as expressed by Buddhist Madhyamaka theory.

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  775. Kyooshtik June 24, 2012 at 1:53 pm #

    Now THIS is MY kind of job applicant!!
    http://othersiderainbow.blogspot.com/2009/07/my-rezumay.html

  776. dale June 24, 2012 at 1:59 pm #

    Oh, Baba Ram Das. He was /is someone who ‘dumbed down’ Hinduism. As in ‘go chant with baba ram das, and feel you ‘got something’ ‘.
    His book ‘MIRACLE OF LOVE’ is good, but its about a Buddha.
    He knew Kalu, yr teachers teacher.
    —————————————–
    I’ve no doubt Das had a big, and mostly positive influence on a lot of people, he just never resonated with me. So far as I know Kalu Rinpoche was not in Wallace’s lineage, but then he counts some 60 lamas as his teachers. Alan is 15 years monastic Galupa, then disrobed and followed Gyatrul Rinpoche, Dudjom lineage, Dzogchen.
    I also have no doubt there are a number of highly realized Hindu teachers worth following. I seen evidence of a few who had siddhis. Bhakti yoga is a little too unrestricted and has led to wide spread abuse. Guru Yoga in Buddhism only comes following a great deal of experience and sorting out of the teacher from a personal perspective, but it still gets abused on occasion.
    All religions are abused, some just much worse than others. I’m always amazed by the unself-conscious materialism of much of western evangelical christianity.

  777. Vlad Krandz June 24, 2012 at 2:09 pm #

    In what sense is his view similar? In that the particles are blipping in and out of existence – thus showing anicca and anatta (temporary and no self)? I concur, though apparent beings die or disappear – to our physcial vision but not out of reality per se. Perhaps the same is true of particles? Like the old sci fi stories of going into a black hole, perhaps the particles just go elsewhere….
    But in a deeper sense, the similarities end since particles are not sentient beings. We have higher apsects of mind, will, vitality, etc. The particles do not. Are we made of particles and thus reduceable to them? No, our physical bodies are but not ourselves. Even our physical bodies, altho made out of the particles, are not utterly reduceable to them since there is a master plan and guideing principle that is not in the particles themselves but rather comes from higher principles. Just like a building is not just the concrete blocks but also the plan or form of the blocks etc. This was Aristotle’s view btw – he viewed matter as an “indeterminate”. Unlike many of the Greeks, he didn’t belive in building block little particles but was open to the idea that matter might be endlessly divisible. Kind of modern and certainly sophisticated for his time. I know this might not exactly be the modern quantum view. Feel free to tell me how it differs – I’d be interested.

  778. asoka.. June 24, 2012 at 2:13 pm #

    WSP7, you probably think government is “too big”
    The military uses 93% of the oil consumed by the USA government. Add up all the oil consumed by our entire “big government” and the DoD consumes 93% of it.
    So when the conservatives complain about government being “too big” they are really complaining about the military. That is where your tax dollars are going.

  779. asoka.. June 24, 2012 at 2:20 pm #

    Over the last 10 days of this month alone, GOP outside groups will spend $20 million attacking President Obama on TV.
    Think about that, then think about what they’ll spend over the last 10 days in October.
    For the first time in modern American history, the incumbent will get outspent in a re-election campaign — by some estimates as much as 3-to-1.
    Y’all get ready for your brainwashing, now. You about to be hit with anti-Obama propaganda on steroids. But then most of you will just get confirmation of your beliefs.
    Goring was right about how easy it is to get the people to do the bidding of the fascists.
    Boo-Yah! NASCAR, apple pie, and Semper Fi!

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  780. Vlad Krandz June 24, 2012 at 2:22 pm #

    But the leeter h is usually pronounced ahche not hahche – even by upper crusts.
    Isn’t amazing that the consonants cannot pronounce themselves but need the vowels do so? But the vowels don’t need the consonants. One is reminded that men are the 1’s and women the 0’s. Better together but the men can stand alone if need be. Or in terms of race, Whites are the backbone of America – the rest are either parasites or at best accessories like the Asians. I grant that they can maintain their own socities but in terms of America, I’m correct.
    No chance of T going to 40? Just put some silver coins into the cat litter container I use as a barbell. It’s time to increase the lbs. The lower case l seems the same as the 1. A small difference in the flag on top.
    In love with Ann Romney yet? Or are you still dreaming of that big boobed black bodied barista who served out the liquid love?
    How is your new nephew? What happend to Yogi btw?

  781. Vlad Krandz June 24, 2012 at 2:25 pm #

    It’s spelled Goering. And as a Neo Con Yankee Republican, Nazis and Fascists of all kinds consider Romeny the Enemy. Look at how he has betrayed Whites not that he won the Republican Nomination.

  782. Vlad Krandz June 24, 2012 at 2:31 pm #

    Most consider Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism as Trungpa’s best book. Then he went and acted crazy dumb instead of crazy wise. And his dumbest move was Osel Tenzrin who gave 100 or so young men AIDS. He thought being the Dharma Heir would protect them…
    Trungpa’s followers still go into a rage when any of this is brought up. They haven’t dealt with it any more than Obamites have dealt with Obama being a fraud. Almost everything in his book was a lie like his father being imprisoned by the British etc.

  783. Rhino June 24, 2012 at 2:37 pm #

    Do a google search. Look up Shanghai Stock Exchange or Shenzhen Stock Exchange. Here’s a link to Bloomberg: Asia Pacific Stock Indexes. Even Vietnam has a stock exchange. Capitalism at work.
    http://www.bloomberg.com/markets/stocks/world-indexes/asia-pacific/
    As far as the Communist Party goes they are austocratic for sure but that old leopard changed its spots. They have no aversion to making money. And communist ideology be damned. Mao is spinning in his grave.
    You can say what you want about the Chinese rulers’ global ambitions. They are one nasty crew. I don’t under-estimate them for one second and I trust them as far as I can throw them. Approach with extreme caution. Look at the fight brewing with neighboring countries in the seas off the coast of China.
    Scott baby, times have changed. But human nature hasn’t.

  784. Vlad Krandz June 24, 2012 at 2:39 pm #

    Also he probably believes that Christ was merely a Teacher, while you believe he was the “son” (what does that mean anyhow?) of God. And part of being the Son of God is knowing that you are the Son of God. Such a knowing changed the way he acted in any case….
    The Koran teaches that Allah begets not nor is He begotten. How can God have a Son? Who was His Wife? Perhaps Son is just a metaphor then? Taken far too seriously for all kinds of practical and political reasons? Does not the doctrine of the Avatar present a clearer case?

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  785. Rhino June 24, 2012 at 2:40 pm #

    Typo : As far as the Communist Party goes they are “austocratic” for sure – should be “autocratic”.

  786. jackieblue2u June 24, 2012 at 2:46 pm #

    I read Fred Alan Wolf in the 80’s.
    He is easier to understand than Hawking. I could not wrap my brain around Hawking at all. sounded like non sense to me.
    Fred Alan Wolf STAR WAVE. Quantum Physics.
    maybe you want to check this out.

  787. Vlad Krandz June 24, 2012 at 2:47 pm #

    Remember was Deng Xao(sp?) Ping said, I do not care if a cat is white or black as long as it catches mice.
    And they haven’t renounced their nasty ways of thought control or police power either. Many thought Capitalism would magically take care of that – as if we weren’t losing our rights as well.
    Perhaps people should distinguish the various Capitalisms: free enterprise vs corporate and corporate vs crony. But there is no hard and fast distinction since one morphs into the other as it develops. If Free Enterprisers don’t want Corporations, are they willing to limit their own growth (ha!). If Corporate Capitalists don’t like Crony Capitalism, are they willing to take care of their own workers and so obviate the need for a Nanny State (that’ll be the day)?
    Italy was poised to go Communist after WW2, but Padre Pio held the common people to common sense and decency.

  788. messianicdruid June 24, 2012 at 2:48 pm #

    More to the story?:
    http://suckersonparade.blogspot.com/2012/06/fast-and-furious-vs-wide-receiver.html

  789. messianicdruid June 24, 2012 at 3:02 pm #

    “And part of being the Son of God is knowing that you are the Son of God.”
    When did he know?
    “He was tempted. like as we are, yet without sin.”

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  790. Rhino June 24, 2012 at 3:06 pm #

    Yes, I sure do remember old Deng.
    When I was a no ass student at university during the time of Mao we had exchange students from Red China. Talking to them in the dining hall was an illuminating experience. They were vociferously and piously and passionately communist. They were standoffish and polite and not that easy to engage with but if you did you got an earful. The campus communists we had ie middle class white kids from prosperous professional and intellectual families – were were a pale imitation in comparison. Self conscious poseurs doing some role play. I had trouble getting out of the Red Chinese students what their family backgrounds were but I suspect they were children of reliable party members.
    But man oh man times have changed. I wonder how those Red Chinese kids have done in the intervening decades. I suspect that they would be terribly distressed and disillusioned by all the changes in China. I think that the most doctrinaire of them would say that the improvements in living standards isn’t a good enough trade off for the slackening in Maoist principles ie the country sold its soul, they traded their moral principles for filthy lucre.

  791. asoka.. June 24, 2012 at 3:14 pm #

    It’s spelled Goering.
    Quick, somebody tell Prog4Spam that Vlad has found an error in Wikipedia. Wikipedia says it is spelled Hermann Wilhelm Göring. Prog4Spam says Wikipedia is a reliable source and has no errors as far as he knows.

  792. Kyooshtik June 24, 2012 at 3:16 pm #

    You about to be hit with anti-Obama propaganda on steroids.
    ===========
    Do you think those Repugs will advertise in favor of trying Obama for war crimes or crimes against humanity as you believe would only be proper?
    P.S. I’m interested in your use of the word “You” rather than “You’re” to begin the above sentence. Do you feel there is something more powerful in your message when you slip gracefully from SAE (Standard American English) into black vernacular? Or was it just a typo?

  793. asoka.. June 24, 2012 at 3:21 pm #

    Romeny the Enemy.
    It’s spelled Romney. That’s Tim Romney for the dyslexics among us.
    Look at how he has betrayed Whites not that he won the Republican Nomination.
    Not so fast.
    Romney has not won the Republican nomination yet.
    We still have the convention, the Ron Paul delegates’ insurgency, the appearance of a surprise candidate (Palin? Bloomberg? Jeb Bush? Christie?), a divided convention, the voting, and then we will find out who the Republican nominee is.
    If it is Romney, it will be the first time in American history that the Republicans have nominated someone who has the spiritual authority to baptize dead atheists into the Mormon Church … and has actually baptized the dead!

  794. Kyooshtik June 24, 2012 at 3:23 pm #

    It’s spelled Goering.
    ==========
    Both spellings are correct according to my Random House Dictionary.

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  795. asoka.. June 24, 2012 at 3:25 pm #

    Apparently the way one talks affects the way one thinks and the way one thinks affects the way one types.
    Or it could have just been a typo.

  796. asoka.. June 24, 2012 at 3:26 pm #

    If both spellings are correct, then why did you feel the need to correct me and publicly humiliate me on CFN … oh, never mind.

  797. messianicdruid June 24, 2012 at 3:30 pm #

    “Romney has not won the Republican nomination yet.”
    Thank You for correcting that widespread misconception.

  798. Rhino June 24, 2012 at 3:31 pm #

    Try Brian Greene’s two books The Elegant Universe and The Fabric of the Cosmos. Easier on the brain than Hawking and really informative. I read them both a while back.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Elegant_Universe
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fabric_of_the_Cosmos

  799. asoka.. June 24, 2012 at 3:33 pm #

    Look at the fight brewing with neighboring countries in the seas off the coast of China.
    Would you advise that Canada get into the fight?
    I’ve heard we don’t have the luxury of ignoring the communists. I’ve heard they have plans for world domination and that scares me.
    Human nature has not changed, you know? We are all savages under a thin veneer of civilization. We must fight the communists before they overtake us. We must always have enemies, vilify them, and destroy them before they destroy us. Anything they do to us is evil. Anything we do to them is justified up to and including nuclear weapons.
    Right, Rhino?

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  800. Kyooshtik June 24, 2012 at 3:37 pm #

    . I don’t under-estimate them for one second
    and
    . I trust them as far as I can throw them.
    ==============
    …says Rhino, not exactly coining a phrase.

  801. asoka.. June 24, 2012 at 3:41 pm #

    You are welcome. I am holding out for an insurgent Ron Paul victory at the convention.
    Ron Paul’s delegate strategy is succeeding.

    “What’s more,” Paul added, “we will send several hundred additional supporters to Tampa who, while bound to [presumptive nominee Mitt] Romney, believe in our ideas of liberty, constitutional government, and a common-sense foreign policy. When it is all said and done, we will likely have as many as 500 supporters as delegates on the convention floor.”

    Here is how we know the Ron Paul strategy is working:
    Colorado – 18 Delegates for Paul, 2 for Santorum.
    Iowa – As reported by CBS News on June 17, “Paul supporters walked away with 23 of 28” Delegates up for grabs at the Iowa state convention the previous weekend.
    Louisiana – At Louisiana’s state convention June 2, the state GOP Chairman tried everything to stop Paul’s forces – including having the rules committee chairman-elect and convention chairman-elect arrested. In the end the delegates turned their backs on him, elected a new chairman and held their own convention, and elected 27 Delegates (out of 46) for Ron Paul.
    Maine -At the Maine state convention, Paul supporters made up a narrow majority, and elected 21 of the 24 Delegates up for grabs.
    Minnesota – At Minnesota’s state convention on May 18-19, the RPR won 12 of 13 possible at-large Delegates. (The one non-Paul Delegate is Michelle Bachmann.) Combined with the 20 Delegates they previously won in Congressional District (CD) elections, Paul’s supporters now have 32 Delegates from the state.

  802. Kyooshtik June 24, 2012 at 3:42 pm #

    Human nature has not changed, you know? We are all savages under a thin veneer of civilization. We must fight the communists before they overtake us. We must always have enemies, vilify them, and destroy them before they destroy us. Anything they do to us is evil. Anything we do to them is justified up to and including nuclear weapons.
    =============
    Now you’re starting to talk sense! 😉

  803. asoka.. June 24, 2012 at 3:55 pm #

    Maoist principles ie the country sold its soul, they traded their moral principles for filthy lucre.
    Make up your mind. Either you trust them as far as you can throw them, or they have a soul and moral principles. You have stated both.
    But you are wrong about “trading in their moral principles” Mao would be pleased with China’s emergence a THE WORLD’S SUPERPOWER.
    Capitalism is a necessary stage in the development of communism. Capitalism develops wealth. Communism distributes wealth. If you bypass the capitalism stage, all you have to distribute is poverty. Mao did not want poverty.

  804. Kyooshtik June 24, 2012 at 4:04 pm #

    Scott baby, times have changed.
    =============
    The “Vietnam Ho Chi Minh Stock Index” — WOW! Ho must be spinning in his grave, if I may coin a phrase.

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  805. asoka.. June 24, 2012 at 4:04 pm #

    OMG! I forgot the sarcasm on tag.

  806. asoka.. June 24, 2012 at 4:07 pm #

    Capitalism is a necessary stage in the development of communism. Capitalism develops wealth. Communism distributes wealth. If you bypass the capitalism stage, all you have to distribute is poverty. Ho Chi Minh did not want poverty.

  807. Rhino June 24, 2012 at 4:09 pm #

    Make up your mind. Either you trust them as far as you can throw them, or they have a soul and moral principles. You have stated both. – assoka
    Stop being a moron.
    And stop dishonestly portaying the clear meaning and intent of a post. You know damn well what I meant to convey. You’re not helping your reputation on this site or the quality of the discussion.
    Go build a mud hut or something.

  808. Rhino June 24, 2012 at 4:10 pm #

    And stop with the mental masturbation.

  809. Rhino June 24, 2012 at 4:13 pm #

    OK so how would you have put it?

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  810. Kyooshtik June 24, 2012 at 4:15 pm #

    Capitalism develops wealth. Communism distributes wealth.
    ===========
    It has taken awhile but the light bulb seems to have come on over (not inside) your head.
    Next phase: getting rid of those crazy notions about having govt control wealth distribution.

  811. asoka.. June 24, 2012 at 4:16 pm #

    You know damn well what I meant to convey.
    No, I’m not a mind reader. You need to portray clear meaning of what you “meant to convey.”
    You’re not helping your reputation on this site or the quality of the discussion.
    LOL! Quality? You saying China is a capitalist country is lowering the quality of the discussion.
    You never answered my question: When was the Chinese Communist Party replaced as the ruling power in China? If you need help, check this out:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-13900296
    Running and hiding from a simple question lowers the quality of discussion.
    I am elevating the quality of discussion by presenting relevant facts from reliable sources, instead of whining and spewing feather-weight opinions.

  812. Rhino June 24, 2012 at 4:26 pm #

    Human nature has not changed, you know? We are all savages under a thin veneer of civilization. We must fight the communists before they overtake us. We must always have enemies, vilify them, and destroy them before they destroy us. Anything they do to us is evil. Anything we do to them is justified up to and including nuclear weapons. – Assoka
    I suppose, asshole, that different circumstances require different responses. Wouldn’t you say? So is this the course of action you would take? I mean seeing as you bring it up? Why do you mention Canada? Do you think that Canada has vital national interests in the waters off the coast of China and Vietnam and the Philipines? Do you think that Canada has the military and financial capability to intervene? I don’t doubt you know something given your extensive knowledge of such matters. After all you surprised all of us with your assertions about Iranian secret weaponry and nuclear capability.
    Oh do tell. Don’t be coy. And be sure to email Hillary and Obama. And the Prime Minister. No doubt they could benefit from your expertise. And a word of advice: don’t cut and paste from wikipedia. You’ll look like a fool.

  813. Kyooshtik June 24, 2012 at 4:43 pm #

    OK so how would you have put it?
    ==============
    Do not take offense. I probably would have used the very same words. I am poking fun at our unoriginality (myself included). That’s the thing about Kunstler’s writing…it’s highly original…rarely a cliche.

  814. Kyooshtik June 24, 2012 at 4:50 pm #

    then why did you feel the need to correct me
    ==============
    After checking back I see it was Vlad I should have been correcting.

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  815. Rhino June 24, 2012 at 4:52 pm #

    Asshole, the Communist Party is still there but even a casual glance would tell you that the people and policies have changed a great deal since the days of Mao. Wouldn’t you say?
    Do you remember the old days of Mao, asshole, when the “three bigs” in terms of personal wants for a typical Chinese in were a bicycle, a wristwatch and a sewing machine? I remember it well. Things we would scoffed at as easily obtainable. But not for the average Chinese in those days.
    So wouldn’t you say things have changed in China just a wee bit? I mean given that there’s a Chinese home owning, car driving middle class that in Mao’s days would have been inconceivable. Could anyone imagine such things in Mao’s days?
    I’ll tell you a little story: there’s a woman of Chinese ancestry that decided she wanted to be part of Mao’s Cultural Revolution. And so she went back to the land of her ancestors to partake of this heady experiment. And when she was there a comrade confessed privately to her that she’d like to someday visit the USA. And so this woman ratted out her comrade who was arrested and who disappeared in the Chinese gulag.
    I bring this up because while there’s a great many offences that can get you arrested and “disappeared” in today’s China, apparently wanting to visit the West is no longer one of them. I mean given the number of Chinese expats living and working around you. Or didn’t you notice? Times have changed. Don’t you think?

  816. Rhino June 24, 2012 at 4:56 pm #

    Kunstler has a streak of scathingly, nasty originality that’s for sure.

  817. asoka.. June 24, 2012 at 4:57 pm #

    After all you surprised all of us with your assertions about Iranian secret weaponry and nuclear capability.
    Yes, but I got that info, and it was about secret weaponry, not nuclear weaponry, from classified Iranian intelligence that is no longer on the Web. The NSA took note, however, so no attack was forthcoming and my purpose was realized.
    No attack on Iran! You will woe the day you decide to attack Iran.
    And a word of advice: don’t cut and paste from wikipedia. You’ll look like a fool.
    Rhino, I am a fool. You haven’t figured that out yet? I celebrate being a fool. Those who choose to argue with me are also fools. They cannot win. How can you win against a self-confessed foolish slippery eel? Riddle me that.
    Wikipedia is reliable, according to Prog2Spam, who is not aware of any errors in Wikipedia.

  818. asoka.. June 24, 2012 at 5:05 pm #

    Yes, times have changed. Things always change. The Chinese Communist Party has elevated the standard of living of millions of Chinese in the last twenty years. But you are duped to think capitalism is anything more than a way station on the way to communism.
    From the Constitution of the Chinese Communist Party:
    The Communist Party of China is the vanguard both of the Chinese working class and of the Chinese people and the Chinese nation. It is the core of leadership for the cause of socialism with Chinese characteristics and represents the development trend of China’s advanced productive forces, the orientation of China’s advanced culture and the fundamental interests of the overwhelming majority of the Chinese people. The realization of communism is the highest ideal and ultimate goal of the Party.
    Marxism-Leninism brings to light the laws governing the development of the history of human society. Its basic tenets are correct and have tremendous vitality. The highest ideal of communism pursued by the Chinese Communists can be realized only when the socialist society is fully developed and highly advanced. The development and improvement of the socialist system is a long historical process. So long as the Chinese Communists uphold the basic tenets of Marxism-Leninism and follow the road suited to China’s specific conditions and chosen by the Chinese people of their own accord, the socialist cause in China will be crowned with final victory.

  819. asoka.. June 24, 2012 at 5:24 pm #

    Why do you mention Canada? Do you think that Canada has vital national interests in the waters off the coast of China and Vietnam and the Philipines?
    What vital national interests did the USA have in Vietnam?
    Since when does a country need to invent a “vital national interest” excuse to give its military a chance to flex its muscles. Use it or lose it.
    Canada is providing China, a nuclear weapon state, with Canadian uranium ore concentrate, or yellow cake. Do you trust China not to use those weapons, that Canada is making possible, against you? Oh do tell. Don’t be coy. And be sure to email the Prime Minister and the Queen. No doubt they could benefit from your expertise.

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  820. JonathanSS June 24, 2012 at 5:37 pm #

    Well, divide 2.6 Tb by the daily production rate and we have 27.3684211 years of oil supply left. Unless we drastically reduce consumption … and make it last longer.

    Look, a message that agrees with my contention that we should encourage conservation. 27 years is a lot less than 99 years; = 3 yrs x 33 oil fields of equivalent size. These numbers you wrote a few days ago.
    You can understand my consternation when I read from you that it’s “all good” (don’t worry, be happy). Your message is not consistent & not in keeping with your avowed progressivism.

  821. asoka.. June 24, 2012 at 5:44 pm #

    CAIRO — Mohammed Morsi was declared Egypt’s first Islamist president on Sunday after the freest elections in the country’s history…
    This is cause for celebration. It is about time Egypt has an Islamist president. And great that the elections were certified clean.

  822. asoka.. June 24, 2012 at 5:52 pm #

    27 years is a lot less than 99 years; = 3 yrs x 33 oil fields of equivalent size. These numbers you wrote a few days ago.
    The 2.6 Tb URR figures are not speculative. We are guaranteed to have those 27 years.
    But the same thing I said about future oil field discoveries can be applied to the 2.6 Tb URR, except that instead 3 years to make the next discovery, we now have 27 years.

  823. Kyooshtik June 24, 2012 at 5:57 pm #

    You will woe the day you decide to attack Iran.
    =============
    You will rue the day…
    …and you will say woe is me.

  824. Vlad Krandz June 24, 2012 at 5:58 pm #

    Hawking is like a bum on a park bench talking to himself about things like the world going backwards all of a sudden. Have another drink, Steve.

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  825. Kyooshtik June 24, 2012 at 6:02 pm #

    It is about time Egypt has an Islamist president. And great that the elections were certified clean…
    ============
    …by the Islamic Brotherhood.

  826. Kyooshtik June 24, 2012 at 6:04 pm #

    It is about time Egypt has an Islamist president. And great that the elections were certified clean
    =============
    …by the Islamic Brotherhood

  827. Kyooshtik June 24, 2012 at 6:07 pm #

    Sorry, not sure how double post happened.

  828. Kyooshtik June 24, 2012 at 6:13 pm #

    It is about time Egypt has an Islamist president.
    ============
    And here’s some advice for all the Coptic Christians: gas up the camel and get out of Dodge.

  829. asoka.. June 24, 2012 at 6:29 pm #

    Q., have you taken your money out of BofA yet.
    Bank of America shares were down three per cent (at $6.69) after the announcement, with Citigroup down 0.1 per cent (at $26.89) and Wells Fargo up one per cent (at $24.92). The cost of insuring Bank of America’s debt in the credit default swap market also rose after the announcement.

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  830. asoka.. June 24, 2012 at 6:31 pm #

    Moody’s downgraded Bank of America’s long-term senior debt rating to “Baa1” from “A2” and its short-term debt rating to “Prime 2” from “Prime 1”.

  831. dale June 24, 2012 at 6:40 pm #

    Vald,
    I don’t have the specific knowledge or writing ability to describe “emptiness” or Quantum Cosmology (if that is even possible in this context), but the way in which they are similar has to do with the absolute nature of existence being empty.
    Hawking asserts that when he applies QC to the universe, time is unnecessary, it’s a human conceptualization. Likewise electrons and the “Big Bang” didn’t exist until we conceptualized them, we create history just as we create the future, in the present. (BTW — nothing blips in and out of existence, just as nothing can have the characteristics of both waves and particles. When you hear explanations like that it should be a clue to you something is wrong). This is precisely the Buddhist position on the nature of reality, things exist “relatively”, but not “inherently” (perhaps that’s your blipping) and its impossible for us to “discuss” things as absolutely existent, since all we know are what we perceive through our senses, and those sense impressions are not inherently existent either.
    The common example for a beginning meditator is to conceptualize a “table”, then begin to remove all the parts looking for the inherently existent “table”. When does the “table” cease to exist, and where is it is the collection of parts? This same process can be followed with any object, including the self. Where is the self in the collect of parts?
    To the uninitiated this sounds like a game of semantics, but I assure there is much more there for one who takes the time. Hawking has essentially arrived at the same approximate location through construction of thought experiments.
    I’m not suggesting there are not differences between QC and Buddhism, but that where it concerns the nature of existence and ontology they have come closer and closer in recent decades. There are still, or course, absolute materialist who object to these ideas. But as I mentioned, 30 years ago they were in the majority, now it’s starting to tilt the other way, with the leading figures increasingly giving the “non-material” interpretation credence.

  832. asoka.. June 24, 2012 at 6:43 pm #

    And here’s some advice for all the Coptic Christians: gas up the camel and get out of Dodge.
    Why? Morsi will expand rights for all Egyptians, not just Muslims. Egypt will still be a democracy. Why the fear mongering? Everyone can get along.

  833. Vlad Krandz June 24, 2012 at 6:44 pm #

    He has threatened Israel yet you say you love the Jews. You have to choose or remain he clueless fool on the hill.

  834. dale June 24, 2012 at 6:45 pm #

    Thanks for the suggestions, and Rhino too. I may have one of those books in this five ft high stack next to my desk, the “intend to read” stack. Some people have a problem with drugs or gambling, with me its books.

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  835. dale June 24, 2012 at 6:47 pm #

    Hawking is like a bum on a park bench talking to himself about things like the world going backwards all of a sudden. Have another drink, Steve.
    ——————————-
    Ah so…..if I had seen this first I wouldn’t have bothered responding to you….and you wonder why no one takes you seriously.

  836. asoka.. June 24, 2012 at 6:51 pm #

    Who?
    When?
    Do you have documentation?
    Or is this just expression of more of your fear?

  837. asoka.. June 24, 2012 at 6:56 pm #

    Oh, I found it … statements made long ago. His most recent statements have “evolved.” During his historic campaign for president, Morsi said he would support democracy, women’s rights and peaceful relations with Israel if he won. Now he has won and Israel is also respecting the outcome of the election.

  838. Vlad Krandz June 24, 2012 at 7:01 pm #

    Yes I remember even The Questions to King Milinda goes into the question of parts and wholes. Plato and Aristotle would answer that the form is the essence of the table – not the matter which comprise it. An existentialist would say that a table is made by intent – and that even a table minus two legs if properly propped up might still serve and therefore still BE a table. Christians would ask who made the table – and who made the maker of the table tracing it back ultimately to God.
    I love this stuff. All these lines of thought if carried to the End will lead to the House of Wisdom. I was rereading the Lao Tzu the other day. His thought that it’s the empty space of a cup or a wheel that makes it valuable goes very well with the Buddhist approach.
    India and the West move towards the Absolute as God or Substance. The Far East move towards the Absolute as Mind or Emptiness. Surely God is Mind but it is harder to see Substance as Emptiness. But it can be done: Dirac did and it was the essence of Merrill Wolfe’s “Substance is inversely proportional to ponderability.”

  839. asoka.. June 24, 2012 at 7:14 pm #

    Christians would ask who made the table – and who made the maker of the table tracing it back ultimately to God.
    OK, so far, but don’t get lazy. Just as Christians ask who made everything, and say everything that exists has to have a Creator, if God exists, God must have a Creator, and so on, ad infinitum. There is no God.

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  840. Vlad Krandz June 24, 2012 at 7:14 pm #

    Thank you for your response all the same. It was good. Perhaps Hawking is smart even if a foolish agnostic. After all, “The fool (like Turk) hath said in his heart that there is no God”. You have sympathy with Turk even though Buddhism has nothing to do with Atheism. You might want to look at that.

  841. Vlad Krandz June 24, 2012 at 7:23 pm #

    No, God by definition is the First Cause. And He is our Last End as well.
    Remember your own death and you will sin no more.
    Who created God is a nonsense question like asking how long is eternity. A better question would be why did he create anything. Because he is creative I guess. Or ask Him when you see Him.
    As for questions like can He create a round square – that’s playing with words. To put it better, can He violate the Laws of Nature? Yes since He made them. Will He? Seldom. Will He violate the Laws of his own Nature? No. He created us Free or in His Own Image. So he will not make us love him.
    Theology picks up where Philosophy leaves off. But Buddhism lacking a God, doesn’t have any except when it does in the Devotional Amida Sects. Perhaps this lack lead to the Metaphysical Masterpieces of the Mahayana as a compensation…..

  842. messianicdruid June 24, 2012 at 7:31 pm #

    “Just as Christians ask who made everything, and say everything that exists has to have a Creator, if God exists, God must have a Creator, and so on, ad infinitum.”
    No, …everything that comes into existance has a Creator.

  843. messianicdruid June 24, 2012 at 7:35 pm #

    “Or ask Him when you see Him.”
    Why wait? Ask Him when He is near.
    “For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.”

  844. Vlad Krandz June 24, 2012 at 7:44 pm #

    What do you mean even Israel accepts it? What choice do they have? Egypt is a sovereign nation -unlike the United States I might add.
    Another answer to your objection about God: God is not just another thing or being that needs a maker or previous cause. But good work Blix. Your Father in Hell is well pleased with you for the seeds of confusion you have sewn today.

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  845. Vlad Krandz June 24, 2012 at 7:46 pm #

    Yes the Koran says He is Near, nearer than our own juglar….

  846. dale June 24, 2012 at 7:51 pm #

    You have sympathy with Turk even though Buddhism has nothing to do with Atheism. You might want to look at that.
    ———————–
    Actually, Turkle’s passion for atheism tells me he is still struggling with the idea, not the opposite. A true atheist would have nothing to do with the passion, passion is for doubters.
    Besides, in Buddhism there is no creator being, as we have always existed. I’ve always regarded Christ as a great bodhisattva, whose teachings have been corrupted and his body hijacked by those who made him a god. Now they worship him, and don’t seem to care much one way or the other for his ideas.
    Merrel-Wolfe, as I recall, called his philosophy “consciousness without an object”, also very close to Madhyamaka.

  847. Vlad Krandz June 24, 2012 at 8:04 pm #

    And you attacked me for reading books!
    My stack is six feet high – higher than your’s.

  848. Vlad Krandz June 24, 2012 at 8:15 pm #

    Interesting but I wonder. Turk has passion for attacking Theists. I don’t see the doubt but I could be wrong. In Turk I see a commissar who want to burn churches and torture Christians. Hope I’m wrong.
    Yes, Christ might be a bodhisattva like Amida. Like Amida, He said he was going to create a place for us… But remember, for people on the devotional path, the Bodhisattava is the Way. They are not wrong. Zen and the Vajrayana are for people with “deep roots” and few problems. Thus it has always been for the few and those are getting fewer in Buddha Declining Age. As D.T Suzuki admitted, the Pure Lan has brought far more to Enlightenment than any other Sect, or all of them combined.
    In Ancient Egypt, Osiris was another who promised believers who had loved Him and their fellow man, an eternity with Him in the West. Sukhavati or Amida’s Pure Land is also “in the West” millions of Light Years from here.

  849. asoka.. June 24, 2012 at 8:45 pm #

    As D.T Suzuki admitted, the Pure Lan has brought far more to Enlightenment than any other Sect
    Vlad, you do know Suzuki lived before there were any local area networks or wi-fi?

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  850. Kyooshtik June 24, 2012 at 9:14 pm #

    He has threatened Israel yet you say you love the Jews. You have to choose or remain he clueless fool on the hill.
    ============
    I assume this^ was intended for someone else.

  851. Kyooshtik June 24, 2012 at 9:28 pm #

    Why the fear mongering? Everyone can get along.
    ================
    I have no idea whether this new guy is a good thing or not for all the people of Egypt. I just wanted to post the silly line that popped into my head about “gassing up the camel and getting out of Dodge.” I’m like an overgrown kid…shit like that amuses me.

  852. BeantownBill June 24, 2012 at 9:32 pm #

    Well, an old materialist(me)is weighing in to this debate.
    If there’s a God, we don’t need for Him to have a creator; it’s not necessary. But this begs the question of why is it necessary to have a God to exist in the first place? Science has shown how the universe could come into existence as a statistical quantum event all by itself, without having to invoke the need of a creator. That doesn’t mean there ISN’T a God, but logic says to accept the simplest explanation.
    We don’t need a god to live morally. We have the ability to do so on our own. When we ask, “If there’s a God, why does He allow the world to be such a rotten, corrupt shithole?”, believers seem to make excuses for God: “God lets each individual be responsible for his own actions – he gave us a modicum of free will;” or “When God created the universe, He made Himself subject to the laws of nature, so he can’t help us;” or “He GUIDETH us along the path of rightousness, but he doesn’t force us.” If any of these are true, and we know the difference between right and wrong, why do we need a God?
    Religious people answer, “to have a higher power absolve us of our sins.” Why do we need that? For us to be able to live in a good afterlife environment – to not go to Hell for eternity. But that presupposes life after death. When we debunk professional psychics and others experiencing life after death experiences (e.g., near-death experiences – NDEs, where it can be shown they are hallucinations caused by our body’s or mind’s dysfunction from being in an “in extremis” condition) there has never been real evidence that we survive in some manner after death, only assertions. The whole life after death subject seems to me to be wishful thinking.
    So, without an afterlife with everlasting reward, with an innate ability to tell right from wrong (except if someone is mis-wired), with it being our responsibility whether or not we act morally, why do we need a God? The only answer I can come up with is because of the fear of death.

  853. Kyooshtik June 24, 2012 at 10:01 pm #

    Bank of America shares were down three per cent (at $6.69) after the announcement
    ==============
    Not true, don’t know where you got those figures. Its intraday low on Fri was 7.79 and it closed at 7.94. But, no matter, it’s irrelevant to me. I don’t own any BAC stock. And as for my acct with BofA, it has $153 in it. My SS check and pension check are direct deposited into it and my wife burns through it over the ensuing 30 days. My job is to keep hounding her to stop buying shit that we don’t really need. My SS check is due this Wed and my pension on 7/1. That will pump up my balance temporarily while simultaneously Discover, Am Exp, Mastercard , TJ Max, Nordstrom and other charges for food, gas, new pillow cases, bags of mulch for the garden, etc etc etc keep racking up so that if you could view the activity in real time it would resemble one of those US Federal debt clocks you see on TV at times.
    99.9% of my money, such as it is, resides in a Wells Fargo IRA brokerage acct.
    If you are trying to induce worry in me about BofA you’re “barking up a rope.”

  854. asoka.. June 24, 2012 at 10:47 pm #

    I told you years ago to move your major funds out of Bank of America. I am glad you have done so.

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  855. Kyooshtik June 24, 2012 at 10:56 pm #

    I told you years ago to move your major funds out of Bank of America. I am glad you have done so.
    ===========
    You’re confused, I haven’t moved a penny. It has always been as I described.

  856. dale June 24, 2012 at 11:38 pm #

    And you attacked me for reading books!
    My stack is six feet high – higher than your’s.
    —————————–
    Now that’s funny! You might want to add Keith Dowman’s “Natural Perfection” Lonchenpa’s Radical Dzogchen. Lonchenpa was a very deep, wrathful lama, perfect for you. Not trying to convert you, you understand, no interest in that, you go where your karma takes you, but I think you can relate. One warning…….you can’t grasp him by a quick read, and then toss off a few sound bites….won’t wash.

  857. dale June 24, 2012 at 11:42 pm #

    Bill,
    What if science just has the notion that if they can’t measure it, then it doesn’t exist, and that is just patently false? There doesn’t have to be a god for a continuum of consciousness…ya know? It could just be the conservation of energy principle if you prefer that explantation. Anyway, appreciated your comments and responses…..Cheers!

  858. asoka.. June 24, 2012 at 11:47 pm #

    you can’t grasp him by a quick read
    Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. What you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing.

  859. asoka.. June 25, 2012 at 12:18 am #

    The ocean is not far away. But your ego is a frozen block – it needs melting. Love melts it, fear makes it more frozen, trust melts it. All that the people who are trying to find themselves have to do, is remain melted and allow the river to move on its own.
    You should not be the guide. The river needs no guide. Its very nature is to reach to the ocean. It is not an effort, it is its intrinsic quality.
    — Osho

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