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Hazardous Games

     The story-line behind the convulsions shaking the money centers of the world is such a hopeless labyrinth of mathematical metaphysics because abstraction unto infinity is the last refuge of those seeking to evade reality. This is why individual human beings faced with terrible choices go crazy, and it is true of societies and nations, too. 
     Reality is so boringly concrete. The facts just sit there implacably like dull cement bollards in a roadway, waiting for impact with objects in motion. These facts are as follows:
     The world is dead broke. (By “world” I mean those places where the electricity is on more than it is off.) The world spent all of its future capital to stage an orgy of blow-out development and then the future arrived and there was no money to run everything.
     To make matters worse, there are massive interest payments due on all that money misspent. Nobody has the means to pay the interest. All the activity around this fact is an Olympiad of money games that amount to musical chairs and hot potato, signifying that 1) there is not enough to go around, and 2) somebody has to end up stuck with a problem. 
     The orgy averred to above coincided with the last years of cheap and abundant energy supplies to run the development. That’s over and done with, too, despite the strenuous efforts of wishful thinkers, cornucopian propagandists, and corporate racketeers to pretend that technological magic can make up for dwindling cheap supplies.
     The net effect of all this is that advanced societies all over the planet have entered a comprehensive compressive contraction of activity and, more ominous, of technological progress. The world can’t cope with contraction. For one thing, it wreaks havoc in the mechanisms of capital formation. Capital can only be formed under conditions where interest can be paid. That is, loans are only tenable when they can be paid back with interest. Hence, the current insanity in world financial markets and banks – the mad scramble to pretend that interest payments will be made on bailouts tendered to nations that cannot make interest payments.
     The assumption that this craziness can go on forever without consequence is now dissolving in an international mood of frantic despair. The spotlight for the moment is on Europe because that is where the games of hot potato and musical chairs with the most players are underway. The mutual entanglements over money tendered and interest owed are so complex and abstruse that the number of moves needed to complete the games seems infinite. But trafficking with infinity is itself one of the universe’s most hazardous ventures – it invariably ends in the death of the adventurer. What’s more, the trajectory to that sorry ending accelerates fastest in the last moments of the venture. Hence, expect Europe to melt down like an overheated nuclear reactor, with an aftermath of deadly political goop oozing out to make parts of the continent unable to support human life at levels we are currently familiar with, i.e. civilized society.
     That is to say I’d expect a lot of internal disorder in the nations of Europe in the decade to come, before there is even a chance of anything that resembles war between nations breaking out – and by the time war does occur, it may be fought with crude swords and helmets forged out of the scavenged detritus of a bygone age.
     The current extravaganza across the Atlantic Ocean has taken the spotlight off doings here in our own colossal floundering confederation of quasi-sovereign American states. Our situation with money spent and interest due – and the resulting impairment of capital operations – only seem less dire in comparison. It’s just that we are playing a different game than hot potato and musical chairs. Our game is more like the old American schoolyard game called salugi (suh-looj-gee), or “keep-away.” The “big kids” (the one percenters) like Jamie Dimon, Jon Corzine, Lloyd Blankfein, et al, have stolen the baseball mitts of the dweeby little kids (the 99 percenters) so that most of the people in this country feel that they cannot participate in the national pastime anymore. The big kids have certain advantages, obviously, but sooner or later they run the risk of being torn to pieces by the vengeful mob. Of course, that happens when the game stops being simple keep-away but seems more and more a matter of larceny — “they stole our mitts!”
     When that moment arrives anything might happen politically here in the North America, from a corn-pone Nazi takeover of central government to a complete dissolution of the republic into autonomous and even hostile regions. Similar games and outcomes are possible in China, Russia, and the nations of the Middle East. In fact, the tendency world-wide in the face of accelerating compressive contraction will be to break up large political units into smaller units. The main question is: how much heat will that process of global fission generate as we lurch into a world made by hand.
 

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About James Howard Kunstler

View all posts by James Howard Kunstler
James Howard Kunstler is the author of many books including (non-fiction) The Geography of Nowhere, The City in Mind: Notes on the Urban Condition, Home from Nowhere, The Long Emergency and the four-book series of World Made By Hand novels, set in a post economic crash American future. His most recent book is Living in the Long Emergency; Global Crisis, the Failure of the Futurists, and the Early Adapters Who Are Showing Us the Way Forward. Jim lives on a homestead in Washington County, New. York, where he tends his garden and communes with his chickens.

861 Responses to “Hazardous Games” Subscribe

  1. jimbolio June 18, 2012 at 8:41 am #

    Good essay this morning, Jim.

  2. Leibowitz Society June 18, 2012 at 8:42 am #

    Reality may be coming toward us in a big hurry, but reality avoidance is what most people still practice. The net result is that we are in the first stages of a new Dark Age and that the “lights are going out” soon all over the world, and that Greece is just the first canary in the coal mine.
    Visit the Leibowitz Society at http://leibowitzsociety.blogspot.com/2012/06/drachma-drama.html for information and discussion about the coming Dark Age and how to prepare for it.

  3. shecky June 18, 2012 at 8:48 am #

    tumbrils. love me some tumbrils. old school low tech class warfare. oh fuck yeah. jamie’s dyin’.
    xoxo shecky defarge

  4. BeingThere June 18, 2012 at 8:51 am #

    Thanks as always for your acute observations. I posted this an hour ago, but will repost:
    A Tale of Two Countries
    Sadly, we have learned that Greece fell for the scare tactics of the IMF, that they would bring down the world economy if they didn’t take their medicine and go for abject austerity.
    As Max Keiser described a few months ago, Steve Forbes who wouldn’t be worth a dime if it weren’t for daddy, was in Athens to oversee the selling off of Greek Islands for way less than they’re worth–but that, is the process you know.
    Contrast this pathetic caving in to the banksters by the Greek people to Iceland, where they said NO to the IMF and threw their banksters into jail. They now have a bustling economy and are raising their interest rates to keep up with their growth.
    Yes, there are other options and Iceland listened to guest economist Michael Hudson last year. The thing that none of our masters of the universe want us to know is that there are other answers to a problem.
    Greece has to make changes, but this extreme program they’ve agreed to is not the answer. Now, of course our pundits are chortling, they say our economy has been saved (perhaps for the elections).
    The best thing that could happen would be if austerity were rejected along with the Euro, total abject failure. I wonder who will stand against the global regime. If Iceland can do it, so can others.
    This crazy system will continue for now, but as JHK says, it’s not producing capital and is not sustainable.
    —- LB

  5. mow June 18, 2012 at 8:51 am #

    sigh …

  6. kulturcritic* June 18, 2012 at 8:51 am #

    We really need to get focused on the underlying problem, James.
    http://kulturcritic.wordpress.com/posts/tilting-at-windmills-gellasenheit-and-the-alchemy-of-wonder/
    all my best, kulturCritic

  7. Zev Paiss June 18, 2012 at 8:56 am #

    Good read this morning Jim. It is almost funny to see how elected leaders refuse to acknowledge the reality of the times. I understand that they “can’t,” but that does nothing to change the fact that reality is still king.
    For those looking for an inspiring read about how we finally turn this around by 2060, check out the new novel “From Here to There” at http://www.fromhere-tothere.org
    Have a great week everyone.

  8. shecky June 18, 2012 at 8:57 am #

    and the meek shall inherit the dearth.

  9. Moondog June 18, 2012 at 8:59 am #

    The worst white collar crimes in history go unpunished, with not the slightest effort to even give the appearance of the rule of law. Our feckless Presidential candidates are incapable of telling the truth, and no one in either party would dare utter the word that we need to hear, process and come to grips with: contraction. The smack upside the collective American face will be painful when reality hits us hard, as resources dwindle and all the credit and phony money become worthless.

  10. Al Klein June 18, 2012 at 9:01 am #

    So long as we as a people keep believing that getting something for nothing is both possible and a worthy goal in life, we will continue to be defrauded by banksters and the other assorted financial shysters.

  11. Neon Vincent June 18, 2012 at 9:03 am #

    Well, I learned two things. First, what a bollard is. Thank you for expanding my vocabulary. Second, that you could write today’s essay and make your point without using Greece as an example. I’d have bet money on you doing so, and I’d have lost.
    As for the Austerians, they may be onto something (we’re facing contraction), but they are, at least publicly, using the wrong rationale for it. They still think the world economy is capable of growth and austerity is the way to get there. They’re wrong on multiple counts, but that’s not stopping them. Of course, if they understood the rationale for what’s going on, they might have to choose an austerity very different from what they’re doing, one that would be better for more people instead of just themselves and people like them.
    As for the “corn-pone [fascist] takeover of…government,” we’re experiencing that on a small scale here in Michigan. The local corn pone fascists are running the Michigan legislature like the Italian Parliament in its last days under Mussolini, but with TV cameras watching. This has led to the spectacle of “vagina” popping up all over the internet and female legislators from the opposition performing “The Vagina Monologues” on the steps of the State Capitol tonight as literal political theater.
    People are also trying to throw out a local corn pone fascist as mayor of Troy and people nationwide are shocked by corn pone fascists from Ohio holding a severed pig’s head aloft at the Arab International Festival in Dearborn. When I moved here from California 23 years ago, I thought that Michigan might be boring. Ha! Joke’s on me!
    I blogged about all the above, plus the plans for a new U.S.-Canada bridge, the latest ups and downs of the gas price rollercoaster, and a bake sale for NASA over at Crazy Eddie’s Motie News. If you want me to write about something else or hold me to my promises I’ve made here about what I’d write about, leave me a comment. I’m tired of being visited by the Viagra spammers.
    Happy Motoring–for now–from Detroit!
    http://crazyeddiethemotie.blogspot.com/

  12. scarlet runner June 18, 2012 at 9:06 am #

    Its never been a better time to value and protect the important things: the physical world of the green and the growing, and your personal strength and health. Happy running!

  13. Moondog June 18, 2012 at 9:08 am #

    Exactly so, Al. The big money interests are entwined inextricably with the political system, corrupting everything. Is there an honest broker anywhere who stands a chance against the mighty forces of money and power arrayed against the 99% of us?

  14. charliefoxtrot June 18, 2012 at 9:13 am #

    it occurs to me that TPTB seem to think they re prepared for the flash mob (NDAA, Citizens United, FEMA camps, DHS bullets, etc), but i think they miss an important point: once we reach the point of quitting the game of keep away, we ve nothing left to lose; when the ‘big kids’ try to walk away with those mitts (loot) and attempt to bully the rest of us into playing bare-handed, the inevitable violence is only going to create more resistance…and eventually, offense…those infamous tumbrils are low-tech, after all, and can be created from scavenged bits of infrastructure and cars that are out of gas a people with nothing left to lose have everything to take- and well, fuck, it was ours in the first place!

  15. fiedag June 18, 2012 at 9:15 am #

    Morning Jim.
    Hey I have a request. Surely with your readership you could expand Eyesore of the Month to become Eyesore of the Week? And include a link to it at the end of your weekly post?
    Also I do enjoy your musings on architecture and new urbanism. More of that please.
    Finally I think you are too quick to write off Europe as a terminal political basket-case. The centre may hold there better than in many other places.

  16. conchscooter June 18, 2012 at 9:16 am #

    This thing will stretch out forma very long time. Printing money, postponing the final reckoning is human nature. Faced with the possibility of reaching a conclusion Greek voters decided to keep on keeping on, as will we all when our chance to die in the glorious combustion of revolution. Better the devil we know than the devil we don’t. Iceland is the exception because they made their choice almost unobserved and have been left out of he picture let we learn their lesson and fight back.
    That’s why they are grooming Marco Rubio for President after President Obama finishes his second term. The script is written, play your part and don’t fight back for the pain of revolution is more than you can bear.

  17. ozone June 18, 2012 at 9:23 am #

    ‘Nother zinger there, Mr. James.
    “The big kids have certain advantages, obviously, but sooner or later they run the risk of being torn to pieces by the vengeful mob. Of course, that happens when the game stops being simple keep-away but seems more and more a matter of larceny — “they stole our mitts!” -JHK
    This dynamic keeps popping up, and I believe it will be the defining spear-point of our times.
    To wit: The race between real awareness/awakening of the populace and the iron-fisted crackdown by those who would enslave them.
    Place your [non-welshable] wagers and choose up sides, Poppets.

  18. charliefoxtrot June 18, 2012 at 9:31 am #

    i would suggest that the only ‘austerity’ that has a remote chance of keeping our wawki is to impose it on the 1% for a change: let jammie (shaddup, kyoo-check; that s a pun, not spelling error) and his ilk live on $8,000/year in order to let them see the impact they ve had on us…fuck, out of touch with reality doesn t begin to describe these bastards! i bet the piece of shit has suits that cost more than that…

  19. lsjogren June 18, 2012 at 9:31 am #

    “The main question is: how much heat will that process of global fission generate as we lurch into a world made by hand.”
    Well, sadly to say, a world made by hand can only sustain a small fraction of the current human population, so the transition from here to there inevitably involves the death of most of the human population, the only question is by what mechanism- war, starvation, epidemic, some combination?

  20. ozone June 18, 2012 at 9:32 am #

    “Rollin’, rollin’, rollin’; keep those tumbrils rollin…”
    Interesting that Conchscooter observes that the cycle of self-delusion can be carried on for another decade. Mebbe so. IF so, I would tend to place my bet on the ascendancy of the corn-pone nazis. I will not join, so woe betide me. Oh well, gotta get gone from somethin’, somehow.

  21. Moondog June 18, 2012 at 9:34 am #

    W’s eloquent statement on economic collapse, “This sucker could go down,” just as he was about to head out the door, resounds and reverberates. I keep in mind while I read Jim’s prognostications that the American Empire is a juggernaut of a size history has never seen, and his “any day now” must be tempered with an understanding that the inevitable unraveling and contraction will take time, a lot more than Jim suggests excepting the appearance of a black swan or two.

  22. Cam Mather June 18, 2012 at 9:40 am #

    … and as things unfold a little more personal resilience won’t hurt to help you “Thrive During Challenging Times” http://www.cammather.com/

  23. noel bodie June 18, 2012 at 9:43 am #

    It was JHK who first made the observation that, perhaps our politics would be incapable of solving problems/conditions of the present/future. He seems prophetic. I, for one, will start attending political talks and start TALKING BACK to the pols. Demand policies instead of slogans and glittering generalities!

  24. charliefoxtrot June 18, 2012 at 9:45 am #

    one thing that gives me a modicum of hope is that we as a society HAVE experienced this century of excess- when the contraction happens, and that iron fist descends; We The People, for the first time in the history of slavery, KNOW WHAT WE RE MISSING…it is far easier to oppress and subjugate a class of people who don t know anything different, and who have never hoped for anything else…but when you finally tell the NASCAR nation that the race is over for everyone but the crew chiefs, we aren t going to meekly line up for the hotdog vendor while they eat filet and foi gras; that puny little thirty foot fence can t keep us ALL out of the infield/gated community…

  25. ozone June 18, 2012 at 9:48 am #

    Getch’er bollards here; red hot bollards; bollards here…
    http://www.globalindustrial.com/c/safety/parking-lot/protectors-bollards

  26. ozone June 18, 2012 at 10:00 am #

    I hope you are correct.
    Keep those thumbs limber! ;o)

  27. SeaYoung June 18, 2012 at 10:04 am #

    North Carolina’s corn pone legislature recently outlawed sea level rise from Global Climate Change and wish to include bars and restaurants as appropriate places to carry a concealed handgun.

  28. malthus June 18, 2012 at 10:06 am #

    “a world made by hand.” If only.

  29. progress2conserve June 18, 2012 at 10:11 am #

    Thanks for the week’s work, JHK.
    Contraction is coming.
    No, contraction is here.
    And it’s a permanent outgrowth of the fact that 7 billion humans++ have reached the physical limits of our finite planet.
    All regions of the globe will face the contraction, sooner or later – and sooner is better, as far as avoiding human pain and death.
    On our present trajectory, contraction will come to the US later, rather than sooner.
    Why?
    Because we have the biggest military.
    And our population growth (due to immigration) justifies using our military and political/economic power – to feed and protect this GROWING population.
    Reduce immigration into the US, and you reduce the looming disaster for the US and the rest of the world. Let’s do it!
    https://www.numbersusa.com/content/resources/video/educational/immigration-world-poverty-and-gumballs-updated-2010.html

  30. ccm989 June 18, 2012 at 10:13 am #

    Once again, we dodge the bullet. Greece agrees to the austerity terms which somehow keeps the ball rolling and the world turning. So basically the theory that dropping the Euro for the Drachma would result in Doomsday is delayed yet again. Well, I for one, am happy about that. We already have enough poverty, suffering, etc. all over the USA. Why add to that?
    Sometimes kicking the can down the road works. It worked today. I am still employed, my kids still have a roof over their heads, etc. Now if we can ever get Citizens United overturned, I will do cartwheels. But for now, I will just be happy that Greece and the world (even with massive usury debt and with oil being sucked bone dry) still stand.

  31. William Hunter Duncan June 18, 2012 at 10:25 am #

    Our president is a methodical death dealer, and vicious America just yawned, or shouted assent. We are well past insane.
    I’m with the kulturcritic. There’s no becoming sane if one doesn’t get at one’s origins, one’s core.
    http://www.offthegridmpls.blogspot.com

  32. Dirk June 18, 2012 at 10:29 am #

    “The net effect of all this is that advanced societies all over the planet have entered a comprehensive compressive contraction of activity”
    CCC: Puts a finer point on what is happening; I like it better than ‘compressive deflationary contraction’.
    Jim, you mentioned ‘in the coming decade’ during this weeks blog and I’ve read others here who seem to think this process will go on for ‘a long time’, as one post read. I don’t think so. This is not going to be a linear, smooth, long slide of a collapse. We are all used to ‘exponential increase’; well, get used to exponential decay. Regardless of how badly we may want to believe that we can contunue to bundle debt and call it capital, it cannot and will not work until we figure something else out. Because work requires energy and there is none in debt. In fact debt is an enrgy sink, if you like. Biological muscle systems, for example, can run for a short time on ‘oxygen debt’ and all seems good until the lactic acid builds up and poisons those same cells. This entire thin veil of ‘new money’ designed to make everybody appear and feel rich will simply vaporize around us, whether we want it to or not; whether we believe it will or not, and it will happen *poof* overnight, leaving the Bernanke banker ‘economists’ scratching their collective chrome dome heads, wondering how this could have happened with the printing presses running full speed ahead. It is very simple; there is a finite supply of real wealth and cheap energy in the world and unless we can come up with a spare planet this year, this planet is about to cast us off like the changing of the worlds.

  33. Kyooshtik June 18, 2012 at 10:35 am #

    This is a follow-up to Eluthero at 6-something this morning on last week’s thread.
    E replied to several things I said to him regarding his ongoing battle with Asoka. He began as follows:
    It’s “anyone’s posts”, not “any one’s posts”.
    My response: Try doing a spell check on that sentence and see what happens.
    E also missed the entire point of my original post even while simultaneously claiming that I missed the entire point of his post.
    First of all let me make clear that we (E and I) are in total agreement that Asoka is a horses’ ass for the many reasons enumerated by E – disingenuousness, etc – but my point is there is no sense saying that you scroll past 99.9% of Asoka’s posts when that is patently untrue. And stop complaining about other CFNers giving so much attention to Asoka’s posts when you, in fact, do that very thing. There is almost nothing else you write about other than Asoka’s posts.
    Oh, believe me, I understand completely your desire to refute the asinine Asoka but you only make yourself appear foolish by claiming you scroll past his posts.

  34. Prelapsarian Press June 18, 2012 at 10:36 am #

    Almost on a weekly basis now JHK gets instructed by readers about the fractional reserve system and the way money has perversely been defined by interested parties (i.e., bankers and their lackeys)as something that is created only with attached interest, but it doesn’t seem to be getting through.
    He says there “is not enough money to go around.” Well then, have our elected representative produce some more, as the Constitution charges them with doing. We’ve got all kinds of work that needs doing, and many millions of people either unemployed or underemployed who want work to do, but it all can’t go forward for lack of something called money. Well, put some more money into the economy then.
    But he also says that “capital can only be formed under conditions where interest can be paid.” Why is that? Because we’ve been conned into thinking that’s the only way capital can be formed. Government could inject billions in interest-free loans. Instead, we funnel it through the banksters so they can get their cut. Just like health care dollars have to be funneled through the insurance companies, a similarly well-funded lobby, so they can skim off their enormous share.
    The current unworkable scheme of finance is grist for JHK’s contractionary mill, so maybe he doesn’t want to see the economy through another lens. Rooting, as it were, for the long emergency.

  35. Desertrat June 18, 2012 at 10:42 am #

    And yet…
    Here we are at a time of incredible breakthroughs in medical technology: Anti-aging, cancer cures, stem-cell and nano-technology.
    Manufacturing via “copy machines”.
    One-percenters are successfully going into space–and returning.
    The new tech in oil and gas production is moving Hubbert’s Pimple’s peak off to the right, for at least several more years.
    But, yeah, the interest must be paid. We seem to have two world systems in play: One, government and investment banks, working diligently to seek failure. The other, the private sector’s entrepreneurial capitalists, “doing their own thing” in the usual innovative fashion, in the sense of the “invisible hand” of the marketplace.

  36. MDG June 18, 2012 at 10:45 am #

    James, somebody else who gets finance, please help me out here:
    All those loans and interest that need to be repaid, particulary by nations — what if the debtors just say no? What if they tell their creditors to take a hike. What happens then?

  37. PatTheExpat June 18, 2012 at 10:48 am #

    As much as we’d all love to see the proletariat rise up in the streets, it just ain’t gonna happen, Jim. Half of ’em are so scared out’ta their wits they’re gonna follow whatever talking head the GOP puts in front of them, as long as he’s for cutting taxes. In a politically disenfranchised world only the illusion of having control over the public sector – cutting deficits, laying off some public workers while stripping the rest of their union rights, etc – gives folks any feeling at all that they’re participating. Not only do the ignorati really believe that in the USA anyone can become a member of the 1%, but in the absence of any real participatory power they prefer to pretend like they’re the “shareholders” of the public sector and they are demanding that those boardroom fatcats (elected officials) cut costs, dad gummit!
    If the other half gets uppity tjey will promptly be portrayed as malconted OWSers and the local police forces will move on them with their newly acquired Homeland Security toys to crush any and all uprisings. The other shoe is about to fall; the first being an absurdly over-litigated society where anyone aspiring to become – or stay – middle class is rihtfully scared silly of being arrested and charged. The second shoe will be brute fucking force. IF they have the gonads to march in the street they will just be pummeled by the police.
    This is ality today Jim, and it’s why your prediction for riots at the political conventions will not pan out. Police brutality and primitive lock-ups will work just as well in 2012 as it did in 2008 in NYC.

  38. empirestatebuilding June 18, 2012 at 10:49 am #

    It is just money and we’ll figure out a way to fix the system after it breaks so badly it can not be repaired.
    Aimlow Joe was here
    http://www.aimlow.com

  39. popcine June 18, 2012 at 10:52 am #

    Oh, I get it, it’s a symmetry. All we have known is the mantra of growth. Up ’till now, anyone speaking about economic matters spoke about the paramount importance of it.
    But there is a symmetrical, different world. Of contraction. A whole different world, not only of economic doings, but of all the culture that goes along with money and status.
    Contraction. “But how will such and such achieve our necessary goals of contraction?” is the kind of thing to be commonly heard in the future. A new dogma for economists, politicians, teachers.
    And nobody really knows what it will be like to live in such times. How fun, how non-boring, I think it will be!
    And not the least of our satisfactions will be to ensure the punishment that finally falls on those criminals who stole the public funds and lied with every breath.

  40. bossier22 June 18, 2012 at 10:52 am #

    I have womdered what the answer to that question would be myself.

  41. Tancred June 18, 2012 at 10:54 am #

    “…to a complete dissolution of the republic into autonomous and even hostile regions.”
    I argue that our republic has long been a collection of autonomous (at least semi-autonomous) regions. This is evident in the tenacity of certain mindsets and “culture” such as “The South.” I’m always amazed when I hear my Georgia legislators speak with accents that are even harder to fathom than the Beverly Hillbillies. And a local chapter of the KKK recently tried to adopt a highway so they could get their name on roadway signs so tourists would know that some things never change down here. The anti-intellectual mentality remains a suborn aspect of The South; creationist “museums” and screaming ministers (and yes, a good dose of NASCAR). It’s all very embarrassing.
    A lot of these sub-nations were already noted back in the 1980s by Garreau, and are again addressed in a new book (Nations of America/Woodard). Heck, we even have our own Greece in the form of California. I know many intelligent people that maintain that our country is just to damn big to operate with any kind of uniformity. And as long as many Americans maintain the unifying theme of anti-intellectualism, we will never have a whole nation.

  42. Jimmy Drinkwater June 18, 2012 at 11:01 am #

    Now I’ve got images in my head of hot potatoes playing musical chairs, JHK. One heck of a good encapsulation of the moment, regardless. Puts a twist on being between a rock and a hard place, just a rock to sit on or a hard chair with a setting at the world table. At least Greece still has the climate, goats, olives and figs.
    Get a bicycle.
    http://alttransbikes.blogspot.com/

  43. Hugh Culliton June 18, 2012 at 11:01 am #

    Very interesting. My question & concern is this: when do things go nuclear? There is so much potential for a regional nuke fight that it ain’t even funny. As economies contract, as the water dries up in India and Pakistan, and Israel gets touchy about the potential of Iranian nukes (the Sampson Option) WTF can we do? I’m open to suggestions.

  44. jerry June 18, 2012 at 11:04 am #

    Yes Jim, economies are built on debt and the carry forward interest payment plan; but now, with a GOP drooling plan for heavy austerity, their desire is to make sure that the interest payments are paid by people with tight household budgets as they spend on their credit cards and paying the heavy interest rates just to keep their lives above water.
    The GOP and many Democrats want the burden to be carried by the workers of the nation and not by the 1%ters who have benefitted greatly by their lending system and development scam.
    The rich corporatists, such as Koch bros, want to run the nation as they see fit, and they are trying very hard with Citizen’s United at their backs.
    The Fat, Sloppy, and Stupid American, as we are the fattest nation in the world, are filled with their drugs of choice and are too apathetic to carry the pitchforks to the corporate offices in mobs of thousands. The human apes are not angry enough and will never be angry enough.
    Only the youth and the 99percenters with their Occupy Movements can stir the pot with mobs of angry people.
    The Elite are doing everything they can to keep Greece afloat and prevent the Domino Effect because they want their interest payments each month paid in full. If they fail, and Greece falls hard, only at that point will the inertia begin to stir up the Occupiers and the mobs, and the EU begins to pull apart. This process might just cause a major protest in the US, as well.
    http://eye-on-washington.blogspot.com

  45. army June 18, 2012 at 11:08 am #

    So where is the National Rifle Association in this mess? I watch the corn pone Nazis haul cases of ammo out of local gun shows along with AR-15’s and Glocks. It’s all in the name of Obama is going to take our guns.
    I have yet to see an NRA member or their million dollar per year administrators condemd any of our politicians both Republican or Democrat.
    We live in a world of real pussies.
    Maybe owning cases of ammo and a 45 makes their member more attractive to Glenn Beck.
    I’ve had it with the sorry ass people in this Country. One of these days the lights won’t come on……….then our tatto wearing lard asses will come alive.

  46. VJ June 18, 2012 at 11:09 am #

    “Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.” ~ John Adams
    “You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality.” ~ Ayn Rand

  47. cooldog June 18, 2012 at 11:13 am #

    JHK continually shows a deep misunderstanding of what money is and the laws that govern its use or misuse. Money is not like sweet crude oil, nor is compound interest a law of nature. No wonder he hates Paul Krugman.

  48. Donny-Don June 18, 2012 at 11:18 am #

    Sorry, JHK, but you lost me at ‘cheap and abundant energy supplies done and gone’.
    Natural gas is trading at the ridiculously low price of $2.52/mbtu today — close to the lowest it’s been in a decade. Crude oil at about $83/bbl, about what it was in late 2007.
    Will these low prices last more than a few years? No. But in the meantime, the US is awash in relatively cheap energy, a situation that doesn’t suggest that we’re all ‘flat broke’. Yet.
    I’ve made good money on my investments over the last five years by consistently ignoring JHK’s predictable ‘the world will end a week from Friday’ forecasts. I intend to keep doing so.
    NOTE: I don’t disagree with JHK’s general long-term prognoses. But his weekly apocalyptic forecasts make him look like a lunatic.

  49. Kyooshtik June 18, 2012 at 11:34 am #

    Getch’er bollards here; red hot bollards; bollards here…
    ===========
    Before reading Jim’s essay and before looking up the bolded word above I would have guessed that a bollard was a piece of dung from a large grazing animal. It just has that sound to it. I can imagine a buffalo bollard or a moose bollard but not a cat bollard.

  50. J Lee June 18, 2012 at 11:34 am #

    And wouldn’t you all trade your $USD for the new German Mark. Ya Wohl! And you thought the war was over. Along the way you just won a few battles but the war is not over! And if you don’t agree then keep your $USD. See how good you feel in a few years. S.H.

  51. Steve M. June 18, 2012 at 11:50 am #

    Summer’s here and the time is right for fighting in the street, boys.

  52. Cavepainter June 18, 2012 at 11:50 am #

    Uh,… Jim, when are you going to step up and address America’s false notion that it can absorb unlimited numbers of the globe’s distressed population, but especially from Third World nations clinging to Bronze Age perceptions of reality? You know, the old notion of America’s exceptionalism – that quaint belief that we are exempt from “carrying capacity” limitations.

  53. anti soak June 18, 2012 at 11:55 am #

    ‘the corn pone Nazis’
    Ill trust them over BHO, Holder, Martin Luther King, Rodney King, Pelosi etc, any day!

  54. Dan_White June 18, 2012 at 11:55 am #

    When the SHTF, that old crotchety guy down the block with the ammo and the guns is going to suddenly become your best friend—-IF—you have treated him with a modicum of respect.
    Make friends locally and make connections now before TSHTF.

  55. cbwim June 18, 2012 at 11:57 am #

    “somebody has to end up stuck with a problem”
    That pretty much sums up the problem with the Nuclear Power Industry. One of the dangers of a multi-decadal contraction is that we will be less able to deal with the huge problem of nuclear waste in the future compared with the present.
    The utilities already know this. They had some money for decommissioning etc. but probably gambled and lost it in the crash of 2008. So now they are trying to extend the lives of these 40 year old reactors for another 20 years because its cheaper and they can then kick this can down the road, when they will have saved enough money by then. Or hopefully by then, it will be someone else’s problem.
    In the meantime they can tell us that this will help prevent global warming. Like their other promises of power too cheap to meter and we will have a solution for nuclear waste – I am not buying it. We’ll be in worse shape in 2032, the utilities won’t have any place to dump their wastes, and we might have a few more Fukushimas in the meantime. Most likely Indian Point or San Onofre. Fortunately, the areas around these nuke plants out to 50 miles are sparsely populated. For instance, the population within 50 miles of San Onofre is a mere 7 million. So only a few people will have to evacuate and relocate…..
    Its my daughter’s generation and probably my grandkids generation who will be stuck with this legacy.
    On the other hand, yesterday I celebrated Father’s Day by doing a feel good and useful project that I’ve wanted to do for years. Building a simple PVC greenhouse frame. We don’t need much area for 7 tomato and some 60 pepper plants. So it took 16 ten foot lengths of 1/2″ PVC, 2 T connectors and 5 X connectors, and 14 pieces of rebar cut into 4′ lengths. I had the rebar laying around and all the other materials were only about $40 at Home Depot. The resulting greenhouse is about 150 square feet. The frame will probably last a decade or more. For the plastic covering I have some left over mylar from when I built my house in the 90s, that is still in good shape. So hopefully we’ll have tomatoes and a good crop of peppers. Tomatoes are hard to grow well this close to Seattle. We seem to be getting the short end of the stick as far as global warming is concerned. Cooler and wetter summers. This might also simply be from La Nina but this is consistent with what the climate scientists are predicting. In the fall I will fill the greenhouse with winter greens.

  56. Kyooshtik June 18, 2012 at 11:58 am #

    I have womdered what the answer to that question would be
    =============
    Two roads diverged in a yellow wood
    And I womdered down the one less traveled by…
    …sounds Frostian don’t it?

  57. Vlad Krandz June 18, 2012 at 12:20 pm #

    America was created by people with guns – why don’t you read some real History and not just more Globo Propaganda?
    The right for the Common Man to bear Arms is precious and hated by Dictators. It is hard won and easily lost by those who don’t value it.
    The Militia was not and is not the National Guard. It was ordinary men with guns who volunteered to fight to create the Nation.

  58. bossier22 June 18, 2012 at 12:25 pm #

    At the risk of sounding anti intellectual, shouldn’t the intellectual elite shoulder some of the blame for the shape the country is in. Afterall the policies they have advocated have shoved the country the direction they wanted to go since World War 2.
    I am with you on the possibility of geographic break up of the U.S.

  59. Vlad Krandz June 18, 2012 at 12:27 pm #

    Why is bigger always better? Why should America stay together if everyone disagrees about everything? And if all the different minority groups, who have been encouraged to hate America and the White Majority, actually do hate them? As Al Gore mistranslated E Pluribus Unim, Out of One Many, so it shall go.
    Empires are intrinsically unstable. If we wanted longevity, we would have been content to grow more slowly and not take in non Western Aliens who will never fit in.
    And furthermore, if you think Blacks are so great, and if they (and you) think Whites are so bad, why shouldn’t they get their own State in the deep South? I think we both know what the result would be. Whites ARE America and should have been honored. Any group who dishonors us is automatically disqualified to join us.

  60. Vlad Krandz June 18, 2012 at 12:29 pm #

    Unum not Unim.

  61. Kyooshtik June 18, 2012 at 12:30 pm #

    Sometimes kicking the can down the road works. It worked today.
    =============
    Sorry CCM, I must disagree. What you think you see is just an illusion. I have never believed in procrastination (kicking the can). I ALWAYS do the most unpleasant task first. I never leave the kitchen with a dirty dish in the sink.

  62. third_martini_banter June 18, 2012 at 12:33 pm #

    I think you have it right ExPat. I for one despise the current political idiocy, but I have zero desire to immerse myself in a sea of unarmed humanity, and wait for some provacateur in my midst to commit some stupid act that justifies the Authorities flipping the switch on the Machine That Maintains Order, and brutalizing me or, worse, my loved ones.
    Did any good come from those kids getting pepper-sprayed in the face at UC Davis last year? Not that I’m aware of.

  63. 6qcmujzni1q0 June 18, 2012 at 12:36 pm #

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  64. 6qcmujzni1q0 June 18, 2012 at 12:37 pm #

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  65. newworld June 18, 2012 at 12:48 pm #

    How true Vlad. Chicago was yet another bloodbath this weekend, the glorius people of color outdid themselves again, and yet the white anti-whites are worried about some Cletus defending his property and family in case some Democratic voters start acting Democratic with them.

  66. Vlad Krandz June 18, 2012 at 12:53 pm #

    I hadn’t heard. It’s almost like our Media isn’t our’s. Almost like it’s owned and operated by an alien group or something.

  67. Vlad Krandz June 18, 2012 at 12:57 pm #

    Yeah the longer you wait the tougher the scum is to clean off. Likwise in Society. But he is right that it can work for individuals that form the basis of our Investing Class. Keep herding the sheep in to failing companies as you prepare to sell at the right time. That kind of can kicking has a metalic ring to it that sounds like money.

  68. anti soak June 18, 2012 at 1:12 pm #

    Jim has mentioned this ‘situation’ briefly here and in TLE.
    Someone mentioned Krugman, I wanted to ‘cut-paste’ some info on ‘Rong Way Paul’ but blog would not take it………..
    “Enjoy dissecting Krugman? Check in at economist William Anderson’s http://krugman-in-wonderland.b… Krugman in Wonderland.
    Krugman actually believes that the act of printing “money” creates or leads to the creation of wealth. And for those not given to dispute, the fact that he is a Nobel Prize winning economist, from Princeton”
    also at …Voxday
    ……………………………………..

  69. Vlad Krandz June 18, 2012 at 1:15 pm #

    Rothschild lackeys flee Iceland. Triumph for the People in the world’s oldest Democracy. It seems only Northern Europeans have the will to be Free -and then only with difficulty. Since these genes no long predominate in America, the prognosis here is poor.
    http://www.wvwnews.net/story.php?id=11113

  70. MDG June 18, 2012 at 1:25 pm #

    Vlad,
    I agree with you that the United States is too big and should be broken up into more homogenous zones.
    Progressive zones on the coasts.
    Regressive zones in the south and west.
    And you and your fellow neo-nazis can have Idaho.

  71. JulettaofOhio June 18, 2012 at 1:30 pm #

    Your definition of the “World” (as we think of it) was priceless and so accurate, but I was sorry to see the article devolve into another mention of “cornpone Nazi”. What exactly do you have against the South?
    Having wondered about this for several years, I finally decided that it’s a combination of liberal snark and the fact that humans inherently prefer their own kind. Libs can’t admit, under any circumstances, that they don’t like blacks, so they verbalize this by the process of transference, whereas what they don’t like about blacks is twisted into what they don’t like about whites. You could never, EVER, make fun of a big-butted, fat, slanternly black woman, but there’s nothing to stop you from making fun of a white, female “Walmartian”. You can disapprove of a white, fourth-generation, welfare family, but never of an identical black welfare family, because it’s never, NEVER, their fault they’ve been on welfare that long. Prejudice, you know. A black mob is always composed of thugs, but if the thugs are black, they have a “grievance” and the looting and burning becomes understandable, not a symptom of cornponeness. To me, this shows you have a deep-seated sense of responsibility and decency, but you’re so hamstrung by your liberalism that you are forced to demonize the group that you’re permitted to hate.
    I’d like to suggest “Southern Ladies and Gentlemen” by Florence King. If you loved Joe Bageant, you’ll be delighted with Florence King. She also explains the difference between the real “Good Ole Boy” and white trash. (You’re still permitted to dislike the latter.) Still like your work, but am tired of being insulted.

  72. david June 18, 2012 at 1:37 pm #

    First I met a Hispanic woman who was offended by JHK because of his rant about the brown hungry mobs charging north across the border.
    Then I heard a c-realm podcast in which two black men were offended by Jim’s rant about black people not assimilating appropriately.
    And now I have to read Jim rant about the “gender confused”, his euphemism for the gays.
    Gosh, Jim, if only the straight white people were in charge, what a wonderful world…oh, wait.

  73. systemyou June 18, 2012 at 1:38 pm #

    Does this mean California, Oregon, and Washington can form our own country now? We’ve been waiting for this!

  74. Vlad Kramps June 18, 2012 at 1:45 pm #

    I overheard a conversation at the supermarket check out between the cashier and the bagger. The bagger was talking about how his updated resume could help him land a better job with some company. He asked the cashier (both guys were in their early to mid 20s I’d guess), “What was your major?” To which the cashier replied, “Marketing.” I thought to myself how ironic. You majored in marketing and now you’re working in a supermarket.

  75. Vlad Kramps June 18, 2012 at 1:49 pm #

    I don’t know why people still major in things like marketing. I think engineering would be more practical, but someone told me that the majority of the engineering jobs go to Indians who are able to work for less money (no big college debt). College is a waste of time and money for most people. You don’t need a degree in marketing to work in a supermarket. And most people pay with EBT cards, debit or credit cards, so in most cases you don’t even have to know how to make change.

  76. Vlad Kramps June 18, 2012 at 1:59 pm #

    Jim’s a Zionist who thinks that only Jewish people will ever prosper. He should be very happy that our rulers are handsomely paid off by the Israeli government. That’s why elections here don’t matter. Whoever you vote for will follow the dictates of their Israeli masters.
    One thing that scares Jewish people more than anything are the born-again, right wing Christians who populate the South. Once they get pissed off enough, they’ll start torching Jewish homes, calling them “Christ killers” and such. As was mentioned on this blog and others, these same born-again Christians carried a pig’s head on a stick and invaded an Islamist festival, screaming, “Muhammad is a terrorist!” “You ragheads are going to burn in hell!” They did this for quite a while before they left to go after a gay pride march. Think this happened in Dearborn, MI.

  77. Tancred June 18, 2012 at 2:01 pm #

    I remember the days of those metal price stamps you had to load up with ink, the CHA-CHING! cash registers, paper bags, and quarts (rather than litres) of soda in glass bottles. The idea of buying a jug of water, let alone a 12 oz bottle, was seen as crazy. Whose gonna spend money for water when you can get it out of the faucet for free? Well, I was sure wrong. That’s marketing for you.
    At least I’m getting a “full core” workout while I write this with my super ab electro stimulator…I’ll be ripped by this evening!!

  78. San Jose Mom 51 June 18, 2012 at 2:13 pm #

    I’m not at all surprised about the checker having a marketing degree. I’m guessing that 1/3 of the checkers where I grocery shop have college degrees. They are biding their time to become store managers. Checkers have a primo jobs in terms of health and retirement benefits in California, because they are part of a union.
    At my son’s college last year, the guy living in and supervising the dorms had an esoteric PhD from Harvard. The students hated him–he had no tolerance for loud (or even not-so-loud) music being played and he quit after about four months.

  79. anti soak June 18, 2012 at 2:27 pm #

    Meanwhile here in L.A., theres a company called ECFMG [?] its in ElSegundo and employes 200
    ‘Doctor Testers’, who test new Indian MDs, they
    ‘fly here by the planeload and all pass the test to be US MDs’.
    Oddly I had 2 neighbors who worked there, the 2 employees were not friends nor did they live together.
    Last time I went to a talk on medical careers, the audience was mostly Asians.
    Architects that I see here [big office here in SM] are mostly Asians or foreign born whites, NO BLACKS.

  80. sevenmmm June 18, 2012 at 2:30 pm #

    Events are moving along quickle and a decade is a long time.

  81. Vlad Kramps June 18, 2012 at 2:47 pm #

    Speaking of immigration, you might be interested in how Israel deals with unwanted African immigrants. Got this from another blog site.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/17/south-sudanese-israel-migrants_n_1603682.html?utm_hp_ref=world

  82. Vlad Krandz June 18, 2012 at 2:48 pm #

    The Vagina Monologues is Lesbian Porn and should not be performed or read on Goverment Property.

  83. Vlad Krandz June 18, 2012 at 2:55 pm #

    Thank you for your open mindedness. There are more of us than you think – read the Comments on Yahoo etc. Nazi is a meaningless word but White Nationalist will do.
    The Founding Fathers were White Nationalists who created America for “themselves and their progeny”. Even Lincoln was – he wanted to send the Blacks back to Africa.

  84. turkle June 18, 2012 at 3:08 pm #

    Could you stop posting here, for say, a few hours there VK? The astroturfing is getting old, mighty old. Get your own blog please.

  85. Vlad Kramps June 18, 2012 at 3:19 pm #

    Wow! California really is the land of milk and honey. The state I live in is a “Right to Work” state, meaning they can fire your ass anytime they please. No unions, and certainly no retirement for supermarket cashiers. Mostly they hire on a part-time basis so as to avoid having to pay for heatlh care. No wonder your state is so popular with the immigrants. Heck, I just might move there myself. Retirement AND benefits! Gotta love California! Plus they have medical marijuna! Ouch! I fell down and hurt my head. I’m a packin! See ya’ll soon!!

  86. Vlad Krandz June 18, 2012 at 3:26 pm #

    I stand with the proud Israeli people in their struggle against the illegal Black immigrants. As they have said, “Israel belongs to the White Man”. Imagine if anyone else but a Jew said that? Yet not one word of criticism from the MSM. Does anyone still not believe the Jews own the Media?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TvSiYu8z2M&feature=youtu.be

  87. Vlad Krandz June 18, 2012 at 3:28 pm #

    Translation: I can’t refute the logic of what you said. I just don’t like it. I hate reality.
    Po lil Turk!

  88. Vlad Krandz June 18, 2012 at 3:31 pm #

    Some of these companies get the spring water right out of the tap. What a mark up! It’s not a lie – each moleculte probably came out of a spring at some point even if it was thousands of years ago.

  89. rlmrdl June 18, 2012 at 3:31 pm #

    And THAT is the nub of the matter.
    The mad dithyramb of political theatre we are being treated to is to hide as long as possible the fact that many, many people are just going to die in the near future and there will be nothing anyone can do to stop it.
    I am now so cynical about it that I check the markets first thing every day to see whether I have another day to refine and tune the prep and build something new on my 10 acres. But EVERYTHING I do is predicated on imminent failure on a grand scale.
    BTW, I’ve been watching Tales from the Green Valley, a historical documentary TV series.
    It recreates everyday life on a small farm in Wales in the 1620s, using authentic replica equipment and clothing, original recipes and reconstructed building techniques. It looks a LOT like the future I’m expecting. But then there are bits of it that I think, nah, we wont even have THAT.

  90. Kyooshtik June 18, 2012 at 3:50 pm #

    A 39 year old black actor named Idris Elba plays Janek, Captain of the spaceship Prometheus in the movie of the same name.
    The casting is interesting. It’s 2093 and Janek (still) has a black accent (much to my chagrin) no different than if it was 2012, and a hint of black attitude to boot. In one scene he makes a play for Charlize Therone’s (sp?) character’s panties. His clothing/uniform have little in the way of power ornamentation and he plays the role as though, as blacks seemingly have long suspected, being a spaceship captain (or heading up a Fortune 500 Company) isn’t all that difficult, you don’t need to be white tight-ass smart ’cause, truth be known, it’s maybe a notch or two more difficult than driving a Trailways Bus.
    If Vlad sees this flick I’ll look forward to his assessment.

  91. Zed Leppt In June 18, 2012 at 3:51 pm #

    Ever wonder if there is a subtext to the current craze for all things zombie-related in popular culture today? Even the CDC recently issued a tongue-in-cheek set of guidelines for zombie apocolypse preparedness. In these fictional scenarios the people we once regarded as friends, family, and fellow citizens become terrifing carriers of an an infectious virus which, if it infects us, will force into the ranks of the mindless shambling mass of spoiled humanity. While an avian flu pandemic or some such mass contagion might serve as a analog for this horrifying outbreak, I think that the current financial woes of the world point to a more realistic metaphorical plague: poverty. Losing your job, savings, house, and possessions taints you with that highly perceptible aura of failure, as if, like Pigpen in the Peanuts cartoon stip, an offensive cloud of noxious vapors were surrounding you, prompting a reflexive sense of repulsion from your former peers. “Sorry Joe, you’re not one us anymore. Go away, we don’t wanna get what you got.”
    Prepping for ravenous hordes of flesh-eaters might as well be stated realistically as “get ready for hordes of disenfranchised citizens driven to despartes acts in order to survive – namely the “unfed” grabbing whatever they can from the “overfed”.
    Read up on some of the new super-secure gated communities springing up in the Washington DC suburbs to house the employees of the new police-state agencies that are, themselves, like a plague upon civil society. These people won’t be holed up in isolated farm houses when the revolting start revolting, they’ll have a comfortable retreat with a heavily armed security force to repell the hungry mobs moaning “Grains! Corn, rice, wheat, whatever you got, graaaaaaains!”.

  92. Drew Keeling June 18, 2012 at 4:19 pm #

    No one really knows how well the world can cope with contraction. It has been a long time since it occurred on a large and long term scale, and the distant memories thereof are not pleasant. But, acres of forest and farmland, reservoirs of fresh water, the know-how to generate power from running water, and many other such things, do not automatically vanish when the currency is wiped out or people’s paper wealth is shredded. Contraction may become a worldwide phenomenon, in other words, but not all parts of the world would be equally affected.

  93. Zed Leppt In June 18, 2012 at 4:24 pm #

    You might also be interested in the BBC series Victorian Farm in which a team live on a farm in England for a year using only technology that was available in 1885. BBC followed up the series with Edwardian Farm – same premise using early 20th century tools. In the fall harvest episode the local village school children are recruited en masse to help bring in the potato harvest – and not a squawcking social worker in sight! Delightful.

  94. Grouchy Old Girl June 18, 2012 at 4:25 pm #

    North Carolina sounds like a humdinger of a place where real events are more incredible than any dumb script that could be dreamed up. Guns in bars? Incredible.
    Outlawing rising water levels takes it a step further. I can just see a row of riot police standing at the ocean shore, guns in one hand, while holding up the other one yelling STOP OR WE’LL SHOOT. If there isn’t a saying about how reality can’t be wished away, there should be.
    You Americans make me laugh, but nervously and with foreboding.

  95. turkle June 18, 2012 at 4:30 pm #

    Uh, no. I’m just getting sick of this one note samba of VK all the time. I’d like to hear more from others on different topics. But between your posts and people responding to them, it is probably half the comments on here.

  96. BeantownBill June 18, 2012 at 4:35 pm #

    A saw the movie last week in Florida.
    Idris Elba is a BRITISH actor, who in real life has a British accent. He’s an excellent actor who starred in HBO’s “the Wire” for a few years. The Wire was an exceptionally well-done series about life in Baltimore. It might have been the series of the decade.
    I liked Prometheus. It is a prequel to Ridley Scott’s movie series “Alien”. If you never saw Alien then you wouldn’t understand the meaning of Prometheus’ ending. Charlize Theron sure looked hot!

  97. turkle June 18, 2012 at 4:39 pm #

    I look at it more like contraction will cope with you!

  98. turkle June 18, 2012 at 4:40 pm #

    What is a “black accent”? I didn’t realize that sounds had a color.

  99. Grouchy Old Girl June 18, 2012 at 4:41 pm #

    Pat, what you say makes sense. People are too desperate to hang on to what they still have to risk any kind of resistance, even if it’s just going to a rally.
    In Toronto police arrested over a thousand people at the G-20 meeting after using a technique called “kettling” where they’re herded together like farm animals, then held them overnight in horrible third world conditions. Many were never even charged and many charges were eventually dropped that were laid.
    For now, people are too scared. How they’ll feel when the grocery stores are bare is another scenario. That’s if they even have the money to buy some food.

  100. turkle June 18, 2012 at 4:44 pm #

    The way our money system works is at the heart of our cultural disconnect with earthly realities. In other words, more money can always be conjured up out of nowhere, with a few keyboard strokes. Yet there are a finite amount of resources on this planet. So what is the inevitable consequence of abstract financial infinity meeting the inherently finite nature of biology and geology? It is that old bugaboo inflation, where the more money injected into the system, the less each quantum is worth.
    Then there is the fact that when money is created, there is a corresponding amount of debt born. For some reason, the government actually has to borrow its money from the Federal Reserve and then pay it back at interest. Yet, the Fed doesn’t actually have this money. It simply credits the government’s checking account and receives, in return, bonds. So no wonder nearly every single government in the world is in debt. How could it be otherwise?

  101. BeantownBill June 18, 2012 at 4:57 pm #

    Your post is interesting because I read an article on-line (I’m almost embarassed to say it was on CNN.com) about the summer and fall TV program schedules. The article noted that end-of-the-world tv series are getting to be in vogue. A zombie tv series was extremely popular this year; last night was the season premier of “Falling Skies”, wherein invading aliens have wiped out most of humanity, with some survivors fighting a guerilla warfare action against the invaders; and this fall, a new series, “Revolution”, is premiering about survivors of some EMP action, 15 years after the event.
    What really interested me was the statement of the producer of one of the shows. He said that the reason for the popularity of such programs is a growing recognition in the consciousness of the public that our society is in terrible condition and may not survive.

  102. vg578454 June 18, 2012 at 4:59 pm #

    ? ? ? ? ? ?-? ? ? ? ??l36~?43o~8o7??
    99%? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?/??l36~?43o~8o7??? ? ? ?

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    =======? ? ? ??? ? ?100%========
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    ??? ? ? ????2.? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??
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    ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ??
    ?……………………………………………………………………………….?
    ??? ? ? ????3.? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??
    ? ? ? ?,? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ?1-2? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??
    ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ?
    ? ? ? ???l36~?43o~8o7?? ? ??? ?
    ————? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ?\? ? ? ??? ? ?\? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ??
    ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ?>,>
    ? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ?,???? ? ? ? ?? ? ? ?
    ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?.? ? ? ? ? ?,? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?,? ? ? ? ? ? ?? ? ? ? ? ?.? ? ? ? ?.? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?.
    ? ? ? ? ? ? ??2011 ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ??

    ? ? ? ?. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? 12 ? ? ? ???120????? ?100??1.8w ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ?
    ? ??? ? ?5000?????6000???/ ???28 ?? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?!? ? ??? ? ?,???? ? ? ? ? ? ?@? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??

    ? ? ? ? ? ?? ? ? ? ? ?? ? ? ? ?!
    ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ??tel:l36~?43o~8o7?
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    ?………………………………………………………………………………..?
    ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? ?????? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ??
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    ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? ?? ? ? ? ?

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    ?2?? ? ? ? (? ? ? ?) 25kg/ ? ? ? 1000 ? / ? ?
    ?3 ? ? ? ? 25kg/ ? ? ? 180 ? / ? ?
    ?4 ? ? ? ? ? 25 ? ?/ ? ? ? ? 4200 ? / ? ?
    ?5 ? ? ? ? 25 ? ? / ? 2800 ?/ ? ????????
    ?6 ? ? ? 25 ? ?/ ? ? ? 700 ? /? ????
    ?7 ? ? ? ? ? ? 160kg/ ? ? ? 100 ?/ ? ????
    ?8 ? ? ? 25kg / ? ? ? 700 ? / ? ????
    ?9 ? ? ? ? ??? ? ?? 5? ?/??25? ?/ ? ? ? 4600 ?/ ? ??
    ?10 ? ? ? 5 ? ? / ? 25kg/ ? ? ? 70000?/? ?
    ?11 ? ? ? 1kg/ ? ? ? 12000 ?/ ? ????
    ?12 ? ? ? 25kg/ ? ? ? 4800 ?/ ? ????????
    ?13 ? ? ? ? ? 5??/? 25kg/ ? 7800 ?/ ? ????
    ?14 ? ? ? ? ? 25kg/ ? 2800/ ? ??????????
    ?15 ? ? ? ? ? 20kg/ ? 100kg/ ? 500 ?/? ????
    ?16 ? ? ? 25kg/ ? 800 ?/ ? ????????????
    ?17 ? ? ? ? ? 25kg/ ? ? ? ? 800 ? / ? ????
    ?18 ? ? ? ? 25kg/ ? 250 ? / ? ?

    ??????? ????? ????????? ????????????.

    ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
    ? ? ? ?? ? ? ? ? l36~?43o~8o7?

  103. vg578454 June 18, 2012 at 5:00 pm #

    ? ? ? ? ? ?-? ? ? ? ??l36~?43o~8o7??
    99%? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?/??l36~?43o~8o7??? ? ? ?

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    =======? ? ? ??? ? ?100%========
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    ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??
    ?……………………………………………………………………………….?
    ??? ? ? ????2.? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??
    ? ??? ??? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??
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    ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ??
    ?……………………………………………………………………………….?
    ??? ? ? ????3.? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??
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    ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ?
    ? ? ? ???l36~?43o~8o7?? ? ??? ?
    ————? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ?\? ? ? ??? ? ?\? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ??
    ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ?>,>
    ? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ?? ? ? ?
    ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?.? ? ? ? ? ?,? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?,? ? ? ? ? ? ?? ? ? ? ? ?.? ? ? ? ?.? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?.
    ? ? ? ? ? ? ??2011 ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ?,???

    ? ? ? ?. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? 12 ? ? ? ???120????? ?100??1.8w ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ?
    ? ??? ? ?5000?????6000???/ ???28 ?? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?!? ? ??? ? ?,???? ? ? ? ? ? ?@? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??

    ? ? ? ? ? ?? ? ? ? ? ?? ? ? ? ?!
    ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ??tel:l36~?43o~8o7?
    ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??
    ? ? ? ? ? ?, [? ? ? ?] ?? ? ? ?????? ? ? ? ? ? ?
    [? ? ?]?? ??380/?? [? ? ?]?? ??380/??
    [? ? ?]?? ??320/?? [? ? ?]?? ??320/??
    [? ? ?]?? ??250/?? [? ? ?]?? ??220/??
    [? ?]?? ??450/?? [? ?]?? ??420/??
    ?………………………………………………………………………………..?
    ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? ?????? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ??
    ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ??? ??? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ??
    ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? ?? ? ? ? ?

    ?1 ? ? ? ? ? 25 ? ?/ ? 2000 ? / ? ?????
    ?2?? ? ? ? (? ? ? ?) 25kg/ ? ? ? 1000 ? / ? ?
    ?3 ? ? ? ? 25kg/ ? ? ? 180 ? / ? ?
    ?4 ? ? ? ? ? 25 ? ?/ ? ? ? ? 4200 ? / ? ?
    ?5 ? ? ? ? 25 ? ? / ? 2800 ?/ ? ????????
    ?6 ? ? ? 25 ? ?/ ? ? ? 700 ? /? ????
    ?7 ? ? ? ? ? ? 160kg/ ? ? ? 100 ?/ ? ????
    ?8 ? ? ? 25kg / ? ? ? 700 ? / ? ????
    ?9 ? ? ? ? ??? ? ?? 5? ?/??25? ?/ ? ? ? 4600 ?/ ? ??
    ?10 ? ? ? 5 ? ? / ? 25kg/ ? ? ? 70000?/? ?
    ?11 ? ? ? 1kg/ ? ? ? 12000 ?/ ? ????
    ?12 ? ? ? 25kg/ ? ? ? 4800 ?/ ? ????????
    ?13 ? ? ? ? ? 5??/? 25kg/ ? 7800 ?/ ? ????
    ?14 ? ? ? ? ? 25kg/ ? 2800/ ? ??????????
    ?15 ? ? ? ? ? 20kg/ ? 100kg/ ? 500 ?/? ????
    ?16 ? ? ? 25kg/ ? 800 ?/ ? ????????????
    ?17 ? ? ? ? ? 25kg/ ? ? ? ? 800 ? / ? ????
    ?18 ? ? ? ? 25kg/ ? 250 ? / ? ?

    ??????? ????? ????????? ????????????.

    ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
    ? ? ? ?? ? ? ? ? l36~?43o~8o7?

  104. BeantownBill June 18, 2012 at 5:00 pm #

    I think you are responding to Q’s post. I’ve never seen a black accent either.

  105. vg578454 June 18, 2012 at 5:01 pm #

    ? ? ? ? ? ?-? ? ? ? ??l36~?43o~8o7??
    99%? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?/??l36~?43o~8o7??? ? ? ?

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    =======? ? ? ??? ? ?100%========
    ?……………………………………………………………………………….?
    ??? ? ? ????1.? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ??
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    ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??
    ?……………………………………………………………………………….?
    ??? ? ? ????2.? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??
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    ?……………………………………………………………………………….?
    ??? ? ? ????3.? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??
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    ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ?
    ? ? ? ???l36~?43o~8o7?? ? ??? ?
    ————? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ?\? ? ? ??? ? ?\? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ??
    ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ?>,>
    ? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ?? ? ? ?
    ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?.? ? ? ? ? ?,? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?,? ? ? ? ? ? ?? ? ? ? ? ?.? ? ? ? ?.? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?.
    ? ? ? ? ? ? ??2011 ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ??

    ? ? ? ?. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? 12 ? ? ? ???120????? ?100??1.8w ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ?
    ? ??? ? ?5000?????6000???/ ???28 ?? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?!? ? ??? ? ?,???? ? ? ? ? ? ?@? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??

    ? ? ? ? ? ?? ? ? ? ? ?? ? ? ? ?!
    ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ??tel:l36~?43o~8o7?
    ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??
    ? ? ? ? ? ?, [? ? ? ?] ?? ? ? ?????? ? ? ? ? ? ?
    [? ? ?]?? ??380/?? [? ? ?]?? ??380/??
    [? ? ?]?? ??320/?? [? ? ?]?? ??320/??
    [? ? ?]?? ??250/?? [? ? ?]?? ??220/??
    [? ?]?? ??450/?? [? ?]?? ??420/??
    ?………………………………………………………………………………..?
    ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? ?????? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ??
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    ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? ?? ? ? ? ?

    ?1 ? ? ? ? ? 25 ? ?/ ? 2000 ? / ? ?????
    ?2?? ? ? ? (? ? ? ?) 25kg/ ? ? ? 1000 ? / ? ?
    ?3 ? ? ? ? 25kg/ ? ? ? 180 ? / ? ?
    ?4 ? ? ? ? ? 25 ? ?/ ? ? ? ? 4200 ? / ? ?
    ?5 ? ? ? ? 25 ? ? / ? 2800 ?/ ? ????????
    ?6 ? ? ? 25 ? ?/ ? ? ? 700 ? /? ????
    ?7 ? ? ? ? ? ? 160kg/ ? ? ? 100 ?/ ? ????
    ?8 ? ? ? 25kg / ? ? ? 700 ? / ? ????
    ?9 ? ? ? ? ??? ? ?? 5? ?/??25? ?/ ? ? ? 4600 ?/ ? ??
    ?10 ? ? ? 5 ? ? / ? 25kg/ ? ? ? 70000?/? ?
    ?11 ? ? ? 1kg/ ? ? ? 12000 ?/ ? ????
    ?12 ? ? ? 25kg/ ? ? ? 4800 ?/ ? ????????
    ?13 ? ? ? ? ? 5??/? 25kg/ ? 7800 ?/ ? ????
    ?14 ? ? ? ? ? 25kg/ ? 2800/ ? ??????????
    ?15 ? ? ? ? ? 20kg/ ? 100kg/ ? 500 ?/? ????
    ?16 ? ? ? 25kg/ ? 800 ?/ ? ????????????
    ?17 ? ? ? ? ? 25kg/ ? ? ? ? 800 ? / ? ????
    ?18 ? ? ? ? 25kg/ ? 250 ? / ? ?

    ??????? ????? ????????? ????????????.

    ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
    ? ? ? ?? ? ? ? ? l36~?43o~8o7?

  106. vg578454 June 18, 2012 at 5:02 pm #

    ? ? ? ? ? ?-? ? ? ? ??l36~?43o~8o7??
    99%? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?/??l36~?43o~8o7??? ? ? ?

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    ?……………………………………………………………………………….?
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    ?……………………………………………………………………………….?
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    ??? ? ? ????3.? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??
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    ? ? ? ???l36~?43o~8o7?? ? ??? ?
    ————? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ?\? ? ? ??? ? ?\? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ??
    ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ?>,>
    ? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ?? ? ? ?
    ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?.? ? ? ? ? ?,? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?,? ? ? ? ? ? ?? ? ? ? ? ?.? ? ? ? ?.? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?.
    ? ? ? ? ? ? ??2011 ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ??

    ? ? ? ?. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? 12 ? ? ? ???120????? ?100??1.8w ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ?
    ? ??? ? ?5000?????6000???/ ???28 ?? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?!? ? ??? ? ?,???? ? ? ? ? ? ?@? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??

    ? ? ? ? ? ?? ? ? ? ? ?? ? ? ? ?!
    ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ??tel:l36~?43o~8o7?
    ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??
    ? ? ? ? ? ?, [? ? ? ?] ?? ? ? ?????? ? ? ? ? ? ?
    [? ? ?]?? ??380/?? [? ? ?]?? ??380/??
    [? ? ?]?? ??320/?? [? ? ?]?? ??320/??
    [? ? ?]?? ??250/?? [? ? ?]?? ??220/??
    [? ?]?? ??450/?? [? ?]?? ??420/??
    ?………………………………………………………………………………..?
    ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? ?????? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ??
    ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ??? ??? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ??
    ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? ?? ? ? ? ?

    ?1 ? ? ? ? ? 25 ? ?/ ? 2000 ? / ? ?????
    ?2?? ? ? ? (? ? ? ?) 25kg/ ? ? ? 1000 ? / ? ?
    ?3 ? ? ? ? 25kg/ ? ? ? 180 ? / ? ?
    ?4 ? ? ? ? ? 25 ? ?/ ? ? ? ? 4200 ? / ? ?
    ?5 ? ? ? ? 25 ? ? / ? 2800 ?/ ? ????????
    ?6 ? ? ? 25 ? ?/ ? ? ? 700 ? /? ????
    ?7 ? ? ? ? ? ? 160kg/ ? ? ? 100 ?/ ? ????
    ?8 ? ? ? 25kg / ? ? ? 700 ? / ? ????
    ?9 ? ? ? ? ??? ? ?? 5? ?/?,???25? ?/ ? ? ? 4600 ?/ ? ??
    ?10 ? ? ? 5 ? ? / ? 25kg/ ? ? ? 70000?/? ?
    ?11 ? ? ? 1kg/ ? ? ? 12000 ?/ ? ????
    ?12 ? ? ? 25kg/ ? ? ? 4800 ?/ ? ????????
    ?13 ? ? ? ? ? 5??/? 25kg/ ? 7800 ?/ ? ????
    ?14 ? ? ? ? ? 25kg/ ? 2800/ ? ??????????
    ?15 ? ? ? ? ? 20kg/ ? 100kg/ ? 500 ?/? ????
    ?16 ? ? ? 25kg/ ? 800 ?/ ? ????????????
    ?17 ? ? ? ? ? 25kg/ ? ? ? ? 800 ? / ? ????
    ?18 ? ? ? ? 25kg/ ? 250 ? / ? ?

    ??????? ????? ????????? ????????????.

    ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
    ? ? ? ?? ? ? ? ? l36~?43o~8o7?

  107. vg578454 June 18, 2012 at 5:02 pm #

    ? ? ? ? ? ?-? ? ? ? ??l36~?43o~8o7??
    99%? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?/??l36~?43o~8o7??? ? ? ?

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    =======? ? ? ??? ? ?100%========
    ?……………………………………………………………………………….?
    ??? ? ? ????1.? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ??
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    ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??
    ?……………………………………………………………………………….?
    ??? ? ? ????2.? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??
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    ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ??
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    ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ??
    ?……………………………………………………………………………….?
    ??? ? ? ????3.? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??
    ? ? ? ?,? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ?1-2? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??
    ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?,???? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ?
    ? ? ? ???l36~?43o~8o7?? ? ??? ?
    ————? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ?\? ? ? ??? ? ?\? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ??
    ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ?>,>
    ? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ?? ? ? ?
    ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?.? ? ? ? ? ?,? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?,? ? ? ? ? ? ?? ? ? ? ? ?.? ? ? ? ?.? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?.
    ? ? ? ? ? ? ??2011 ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ??

    ? ? ? ?. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? 12 ? ? ? ???120????? ?100??1.8w ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ?
    ? ??? ? ?5000?????6000???/ ???28 ?? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?!? ? ??? ? ?,???? ? ? ? ? ? ?@? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??

    ? ? ? ? ? ?? ? ? ? ? ?? ? ? ? ?!
    ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ??tel:l36~?43o~8o7?
    ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??
    ? ? ? ? ? ?, [? ? ? ?] ?? ? ? ?????? ? ? ? ? ? ?
    [? ? ?]?? ??380/?? [? ? ?]?? ??380/??
    [? ? ?]?? ??320/?? [? ? ?]?? ??320/??
    [? ? ?]?? ??250/?? [? ? ?]?? ??220/??
    [? ?]?? ??450/?? [? ?]?? ??420/??
    ?………………………………………………………………………………..?
    ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? ?????? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ??
    ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ??? ??? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ??
    ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? ?? ? ? ? ?

    ?1 ? ? ? ? ? 25 ? ?/ ? 2000 ? / ? ?????
    ?2?? ? ? ? (? ? ? ?) 25kg/ ? ? ? 1000 ? / ? ?
    ?3 ? ? ? ? 25kg/ ? ? ? 180 ? / ? ?
    ?4 ? ? ? ? ? 25 ? ?/ ? ? ? ? 4200 ? / ? ?
    ?5 ? ? ? ? 25 ? ? / ? 2800 ?/ ? ????????
    ?6 ? ? ? 25 ? ?/ ? ? ? 700 ? /? ????
    ?7 ? ? ? ? ? ? 160kg/ ? ? ? 100 ?/ ? ????
    ?8 ? ? ? 25kg / ? ? ? 700 ? / ? ????
    ?9 ? ? ? ? ??? ? ?? 5? ?/??25? ?/ ? ? ? 4600 ?/ ? ??
    ?10 ? ? ? 5 ? ? / ? 25kg/ ? ? ? 70000?/? ?
    ?11 ? ? ? 1kg/ ? ? ? 12000 ?/ ? ????
    ?12 ? ? ? 25kg/ ? ? ? 4800 ?/ ? ????????
    ?13 ? ? ? ? ? 5??/? 25kg/ ? 7800 ?/ ? ????
    ?14 ? ? ? ? ? 25kg/ ? 2800/ ? ??????????
    ?15 ? ? ? ? ? 20kg/ ? 100kg/ ? 500 ?/? ????
    ?16 ? ? ? 25kg/ ? 800 ?/ ? ????????????
    ?17 ? ? ? ? ? 25kg/ ? ? ? ? 800 ? / ? ????
    ?18 ? ? ? ? 25kg/ ? 250 ? / ? ?

    ??????? ????? ????????? ????????????.

    ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
    ? ? ? ?? ? ? ? ? l36~?43o~8o7?

  108. BeantownBill June 18, 2012 at 5:06 pm #

    I agree with you. Remember that”freedom’s just another word for nothing left to lose”.

  109. BeantownBill June 18, 2012 at 5:08 pm #

    “You Americans make me laugh, but nervously and with foreboding.”
    Just think how I feel. I live there.

  110. Zed Leppt In June 18, 2012 at 5:09 pm #

    Someone metioned up-thread that Jim should have an Eyesore-of the-Week. Here’s a link to a story on a Toronto area condo tower development that has been nick-named the “Marilyn Monroe Towers”. The name comes from the femine outline of the building but may as well refer to a showy glamour queen who dies an early, self-inflicted death.
    The Chicago-based Council on Tall Buildings and Urban Habitat awaded this a “Best Tall Buildings in the Americas” prize, for what ever that’s worth.
    http://www.thestar.com/news/article/1211657–marilyn-monroe-towers-in-mississauga-among-world-s-best-new-skyscrapers
    I hope the elevator shafts follow the spiraling contours of the structure, what a fun ride that would be when centifigul forces kick in decending from the 50th floor.

  111. Zed Leppt In June 18, 2012 at 5:15 pm #

    centrifigal

  112. anti soak June 18, 2012 at 5:24 pm #

    ‘I don’t know why people still major in things like marketing.’
    Because we couldnt do Physics and Calculus.
    The ‘Anti Black’ Uprising in Israel is old news..
    I had posted a week or 2 ago, ‘whats good for the joos aint good for the goyim’.

  113. Kyooshtik June 18, 2012 at 5:34 pm #

    I think you are responding to Q’s post. I’ve never seen a black accent either.
    ================
    Neither have I but I hear them nearly every day of my life.
    Please Bean and Turk, don’t play stupid with me.

  114. turkle June 18, 2012 at 5:44 pm #

    It’s a movie, genius. And you’re looking for accuracy in dialect?! I haven’t seen it, but I’m assuming they travel half-way across the universe in a day and a half. And yet you take umbrage because one of the actors has a “black accent.” You old fuddy duddy!

  115. turkle June 18, 2012 at 5:48 pm #

    I know that no one on the planet earth is as great, perfect, and all-knowing as the almighty ‘anti soak’. But do you think that you could go, say, one week on here without making some veiled racist or bigoted comment about one group or another? Think of it as a personal challenge. You know, practice having compassion and forgiveness for your inferiors. It might help improve your evidently ragged mental health.

  116. mow June 18, 2012 at 5:49 pm #

    the world went to hell when george marshall gave away free missouri mules

  117. turkle June 18, 2012 at 5:51 pm #

    I wonder why everyone in medieval times, as depicted in the cinema, has a British accent, even when said movie takes place in, say, France. Is it because there are a lot of good British actors and we don’t want to cramp their style? Actually, why do so many people in sci fi flicks talk like that? If we want to be realistic, I’d think that 100 years in the future, everyone should be speaking Chinese.

  118. anti soak June 18, 2012 at 5:58 pm #

    I got a kick out of this:
    Ronan Farrow,, named Satchel Ronan O’Sullivan Farrow when he was born in 1987, is the sole biological child of Woody and actress Mia Farrow.
    He is currently ‘serving’ as special adviser to the Secretary of State for Global Youth Issues and director of the State Department’s Global Youth Issues office
    [Wow, he is serving!!!]
    Father’s Day might always be a tricky holiday for Woody Allen but this year was particularly awkward.
    Ronan Farrow, the 24-year-old son of Mia Farrow and Woody Allen, let loose yesterday tweeting, “Happy father’s day — or as they call it in my family, happy brother-in-law’s day.”
    …………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….

  119. anti soak June 18, 2012 at 6:00 pm #

    I was replying to VK2s question.
    I had offered no opinion about the uprising, for or against.
    gees are you stoo-pid.
    Idiot, Ill do what I can to ignore you.

  120. xport June 18, 2012 at 6:04 pm #

    Here is a recent article by Marty Kaplan that sums things up pretty well:
    THE END IS NIGH, SERIOUSLY
    In countless cartoons, there’s a guy in a robe and long beard who’s walking around carrying a sign saying The End Is Nigh. The joke is that he’s ridiculous — some loony who takes the Book of Revelation literally. But what if the joke’s on us?
    The June 6 issue of the leading scientific journal Nature contains a paper co-authored by 22 researchers from all over the world. Their disciplines range from zoology, paleontology and geology to fields that are not your father’s Oldsmobile, like ecoinformatics and computational ecology. Getting published in Nature means that independent peer reviewers have vouched for the quality of the authors’ evidence and the rigor of their thinking. We’re talking gold-standard science here.
    What the paper says is that the earth is approaching a global tipping point, “a state shift in Earth’s biosphere.” It may happen in as few as 10 to 15 years; it may even have already happened. It will be irreversible, “a planetary-scale critical transition” whose consequences may include mass extinctions and “drastic changes in species distributions, abundances and diversity.”
    Its consequences could be as catastrophic as an asteroid hitting the Earth. But unlike asteroids, volcanoes, plate tectonics and other suspected culprits in the prior Great Extinctions, the cause of this tipping point is people.
    There are 7 billion of us now; there will be over 9 billion when today’s toddlers start having kids. To support that population, we’ve cleared more than 40 percent of the planet’s surface for agriculture and urban development, and that will hit 50 percent by 2050. Add to that the fossil fuels we’re burning, and the resulting carbon dioxide that we’re pumping into the atmosphere is acidifying the oceans, melting the ice caps, messing with the climate and heading us toward “widespread social unrest, economic instability and the loss of human life.”
    So what do we do with news that bad?
    The right’s response has been denial – a war on truth. Rush Limbaugh calls science, academia, government and the media the “four pillars of deceit,” a Red Queen maneuver that beheads anything incompatible with the Gospel of Rushbo. Sense is nonsense: if that’s your epistemology, there’s no arguing with it. Or, shifting from Lewis Carroll to the Doobie Brothers, “What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.”
    But if you don’t think that Nature is Pravda, if you can’t wear a Science = Stalin button, if you don’t believe that those 22 researchers have an ideological axe to grind, how do you process the news that the end may in fact be nigh?
    There’s another kind of denial, one that’s different from Rush’s de-definition of reason. Some facts are so disturbing that the only way we can handle them is magical thinking. If we don’t dwell on them, they won’t hurt us. If we ignore them, they’ll go away. The proliferation of nuclear weapons is a familiar example. The obesity epidemic is another. We know how scary and intractable these problems are, but we quarantine those thoughts. Defense, Inc. and Food, Inc. spend whatever it takes to market images of security and pleasure to us, and we find them so appealing that we willingly inhabit a cloud cuckoo land that poses no threat to their profits.
    But suppose we put away childish things. Suppose we faced the ecological bad news head on. What if the specter of a global tipping point, an irreversible environmental catastrophe, grabbed our attention as powerfully as the prospect of extinction grips the people of Earth in space invasion movies? We’d do everything we could to stop it, right?
    In the U.S., the scale of action required to prevent such a state shift in our planet’s biosphere can only be attempted by our political system.
    Uh-oh.
    Special interests own Congress. The Supreme Court’s Citizens United decision holding corporations to be people, together with the demise of campaign finance laws, puts plutocrats first. Big media, while raking in billions from political ads, is holding audiences riveted to spectacles instead of holding candidates accountable for lying. If you think a re-elected Barack Obama could get a decent energy policy passed by the next Congress, you haven’t been counting the Koch brothers’ money or listening to Mitch McConnell.
    The consequence of being a citizen who cares about issues like carbon footprints, peak oil and rising temperatures is a feeling of powerlessness. The oligarchs have us by the short hairs. If you aren’t feeling impotent, you haven’t been paying attention.
    Powerlessness hurts — literally. It’s a clinical diagnosis. The Occupy movement was, briefly, a kind of therapy for it. Tracking every online detail about the latest outrage is a recent form of self-medication for it. But as long as informed majorities are rendered helpless by a rigged system, the only thing more demoralizing than knowing how nigh the end may really be is being trapped, powerless, alongside that nutcase in the cartoon.

  121. turkle June 18, 2012 at 6:06 pm #

    “Gees”
    “Ill”
    “stoo-pid”
    And I’m the idiot? Where’d you learn English, from comments on youtube?

  122. Kyooshtik June 18, 2012 at 6:33 pm #

    The late great David Foster Wallace is (was) considered such an authority on American English and Usage that he was hired to review a new dictionary written by someone else. The review runs 62 pages and is one of the essays contained in a collection of essays published under the title “Consider The Lobster.”
    Here is the blurb concerning that dictionary review:
    “Authority and American Usage” A 62-page review of Bryan A. Garner’s A Dictionary of Modern American Usage. Wallace applies George Orwell’s “Politics and the English Language” to grammar and the conditions of class and power in millennial American communication. In addition to examining such seemingly technical ideas as descriptive linguistics versus prescriptive grammar, Wallace digresses to discuss the legitimacy of Ebonics as opposed to “white male” standard English. (originally published in Harper’s as “Tense Present: Democracy, English and Wars over Usage”)
    If you insist on playing dumb about the existence of what I have termed a “black accent” I recommend you borrow Consider The Lobster from your library and find the section of his dictionary review where he discusses Ebonics vs Standard American English.

  123. Buck Stud June 18, 2012 at 6:39 pm #

    It didn’t take long for this weeks comment thread to become another stale expression of racial consciousness, courtesy of Vlad and his absurdly inane and dull sidekick, anti-soak. Oh well.
    But speaking of JHK,and “mathematical metaphysics” and “technological magic” and the “last refuge of those seeking to evade reality” – what does one do when the 10-15 year lifespan of a hip replacement breaks down and one finds themselves back in the midst of a “World Made By Hand” time warp?
    I have a feeling at that point that “abstraction unto infinity” will be championed for the sake of avoiding a life finished in a wheelchair. In fact, “technology” and the “cornucopian propagandists” and the “wishful thinkers” will somehow find themselves on the payroll of those now posing with their Daniel Boone axes in the here and now.
    Learn to see thru the bullshit; or better yet, enjoy a good belly laugh.

  124. scott June 18, 2012 at 7:17 pm #

    In fact, “technology” and the “cornucopian propagandists” and the “wishful thinkers” will somehow find themselves on the payroll of those now posing with their Daniel Boone axes in the here and now.
    Somebody is wishfully thinking that the status quo of, “abstraction to infinity” can go on forever.
    Wonder if the current ascendency of Africans wishing the curve of ascendency to continue has anything to do with it?

  125. ozone June 18, 2012 at 8:08 pm #

    Good post, Xport.
    You sez:
    “Powerlessness hurts — literally. It’s a clinical diagnosis. The Occupy movement was, briefly, a kind of therapy for it. Tracking every online detail about the latest outrage is a recent form of self-medication for it. But as long as informed majorities are rendered helpless by a rigged system, the only thing more demoralizing than knowing how nigh the end may really be is being trapped, powerless, alongside that nutcase in the cartoon.”
    Yep, I sure hear you there.
    Perhaps this is amniotic fluid in which revenge fantasies are born. (I entertain them myself from time to time, but generally haven’t the inclination to penetrate the psychosis.)
    Leaving problem “management” to the current crop of politicos (plus the ones about to be installed) should make us all a bit queasy. The pandering is so endemic that they wouldn’t know a predicaments’ outcome/consequence if it bit them in the privates. To continually opine as though there is a “solution” to every problem is a disastrous position to cleave to. (Some things just have to be dealt with, not solved.)
    In the upcoming election, I’d be curious to know the total number of eligible voters who actually did so. That would probably shine a light on how much faith the folks have in their system and how near we might be to “the end” (at least of business-as-usual).
    I’m sure you saw this analysis of the religion of progress and authoritarian personalities, but just in case you hadn’t, I recommend it, as it reflects and expands on some of your views.
    http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com/2012/06/parting-of-ways.html
    (I’ve already made my peace with the downward tumble that is “nigh” and will only grapple with true believers when faced with no other choice. I would wish them their utopia in I-dunno/Idaho, but as we’ve witnessed time and time again, they just can’t mind their own fucking business, because thirst for dominance and ease at the cost of others’ labor are their outstanding personality traits.)
    My favorite bumper sticker is: “If you’re not outraged, you’re not paying attention.”
    Anywhich, thanks for the provocative post.

  126. Buck Stud June 18, 2012 at 8:13 pm #

    Somebody is wishfully thinking that the status quo of, “abstraction to infinity” can go on forever.
    Wonder if the current ascendency of Africans wishing the curve of ascendency to continue has anything to do with it?

    No, “Scott” (and I’ll ignore your asinine and irrelevant comment pertaining to Africans) my point was that when the rubber of medical conditions hits the road of “reality”, the condescending castigation’s of the “cornucopian propagandists” and the “wishful thinkers” will be revealed as the hyperbolic hypocrisy that it is.
    Do you really think the JHK’s of the world will eschew medical technology or deride physicians when it’s their turn to get revision surgery on their original hip replacement? Not a fucking chance.
    No, they will cash in their collected chips from Bozos’ like yourself who thought they were preparing for Armageddon when donating cash or buying Doomsday survival info.
    Multiply that sentiment by the millions of people who are also not willing to forsake their hip revision surgery or revert to a world made by hand of medical treatment and it’s not too difficult to see why “the masses” are not all that eager to “get real”.
    In truth, “the masses” and the JHK’s of the Doomer world both covet the high technology of the current medical world and they both, when push comes to shove – i.e, spending the remainder of life in a wheelchair – cheer hopefully for those practitioners of ‘mathematical metaphysics evading reality’.
    And yet the befuddled “wonder” how and why society continues to “kick the can down the road”.

  127. Vlad Krandz June 18, 2012 at 8:27 pm #

    It’s all in the Will. If we do nothing, everyone will be Black and be speaking a gutter version of Mandarin as they pick thru the Trash. This is the future you are choosing by opposing me.

  128. scott June 18, 2012 at 8:35 pm #

    Yeah, they are going to go back to the same people who fucked up their hip replacements and pay good money to get fucked up again.
    It’s like the old joke where the john says he wants to get fucked and the pimp says slide 20 dollars under the door. The John says I want to get fucked and the pimp says, “what, again?”.

  129. messianicdruid June 18, 2012 at 8:38 pm #

    “Capital can only be formed under conditions where interest can be paid.”
    Wrong. The banksters create money {captial?} out of nothing and loan it {fraud} to presumptuous persons who don’t realize the money has not been created to pay the interest.
    Foreclosure/bankruptcy is the only outcome.
    A contract based on fraud can only be enforced by force or confidence.

  130. turkle June 18, 2012 at 8:45 pm #

    Huh?

  131. scott June 18, 2012 at 8:46 pm #

    A contract based on fraud can only be enforced by force and confidence.
    FIFY

  132. scott June 18, 2012 at 8:56 pm #

    No, “Scott” (and I’ll ignore your asinine and irrelevant comment pertaining to Africans)
    You should have shut up when you had the chance but no… you had to reveal yourself…

  133. ASPO Article 1037 June 18, 2012 at 9:03 pm #

    Chinese and Russian involvement in the affairs of Israel is not going to end well. India should THINK carefully too.
    Of course others will be adversely affected, but the cosmic rhubarb is a Jewish/Christian/Islamic tangle, and anyone else expecting to profit from direct involvement in the melee shall be disappointed. America could be badly crippled- does anyone in their right mind think this mix-up leaves ANYONE in a viable condition?
    Muslims are hooked, and cannot escape; the folly of following a false prophet is destruction. Brave Imams and believers can see “The Blood Of The Moon” by George grant, plain & simple explanations… Turkey is about to be the catalyst pushing things over the cliff.
    Likewise- Joseph Smith is another problem, for America in particular: See “Under The Prophet In Utah” by Senator Frank J. Cannon. Mitt Romney needs a new set of advisers, and a rethink of the original Hebrew/Greek text scriptures, and the deadly error of denying the divinity of Jesus of Nazareth. Does Romney have the intellectual honesty and courage to recant the rubbish of Mormonism?

  134. turkle June 18, 2012 at 9:27 pm #

    All religion is, by its very nature, intellectual rubbish based on wishful thinking. Religious truth derives from authority and not any kind of experimental validation or even logical argument, which are the criteria that we tend to apply to all statements of reality outside this precious sphere of “spirituality”. There’s no more evidence for the supposed divinity of Christ than there is for the idea that Mohammed wrote down the Koran from God’s dictation.
    Religious types can’t even answer basic questions to resolve the obvious contradictions, such as, why, if he had complete control over it, did God include in his creation things and concepts that he himself is adamantly against?
    If there is a God, he’s some kind of demented sadist, I’d say, which actually isn’t that far from his depiction in the Old Testament.
    But do we really need to have this argument again? That’s another thing about religious nutters. They can’t recognize when they’ve lost the argument, probably because they generally can’t follow a chain of logical deductions in the first place. Otherwise, they wouldn’t believe such clap trap.

  135. ozone June 18, 2012 at 9:37 pm #

    Hmm,
    Speaking of earth-shattering frauds, shenanigans and retribution, some may find this of interest:
    http://theautomaticearth.com/Earth/the-orkin-man-which-side-are-you-on.html
    (Excerpted from the Doomstead Diner discussion of same.)

  136. Buck Stud June 18, 2012 at 9:39 pm #

    Yeah, they are going to go back to the same people who fucked up their hip replacements and pay good money to get fucked up again.

    No Scott, hip replacement’s typically last 15 years give or take. So a person young enough might need revision surgery. ( Your ignorance is staggering, btw).
    Below is JHK’s hip story:
    http://www.kunstler.com/Mags_hip.html

  137. BeantownBill June 18, 2012 at 9:47 pm #

    Right on, Turk!

  138. turkle June 18, 2012 at 9:55 pm #

    Think I’ve been reading too much Hitchens and Dawkins. Bring it on!

  139. anti soak June 18, 2012 at 9:57 pm #

    Are you saying modern medicine has gone over a cliff?
    If you want to know about it [and its victims] ask a nurse, or better yet a former nurse who worked at a large hospital.

  140. Kyooshtik June 18, 2012 at 9:57 pm #

    And yet you take umbrage because one of the actors has a “black accent.” You old fuddy duddy
    ==============
    No Turkle, you have missed my point entirely. Not umbrage, I simply think it is interesting that TPTB behind this movie envision a black dude in a position of power 81 years hence but language-wise and pretty much every other-wise he is still the black dude we are familiar with in 2012. Everyone else seems to have 81 years of human advancement under their belts but the black guy is still the black guy whether it’s 2012, 1912 or 2093. If their vision is accurate I think it’s a bad sign.
    The actor, as someone here pointed out, is in fact British. They had to have this guy use his acting ability to sound like an American black. If he’s flying spaceships across the universe I’m surprised they didn’t leave him with his British “accent” which is more authoritative sounding to an American audience’s ear.

  141. anti soak June 18, 2012 at 9:58 pm #

    Johnny Cochran said the same, during a famous trial in these parts.
    A black friend of mine disagreed, but he was not on the jury.

  142. Kyooshtik June 18, 2012 at 10:10 pm #

    Religious types can’t even answer basic questions to resolve the obvious contradictions, such as, why, if he had complete control over it, did God include in his creation things and concepts that he himself is adamantly against?
    =============
    It is quite obvious Turkle that you have never received religious instruction from priests and nuns in the Catholic Church or you would know that the answer to all questions of this sort is “it’s a mystery.”
    😉

  143. turkle June 18, 2012 at 10:17 pm #

    I also like the response, “He’s testing us.”
    But doesn’t it seem a bit unfair and arbitrary that he’d create some of us with the inability to pass the exam?

  144. BeantownBill June 18, 2012 at 10:20 pm #

    You’re correct, Buck. Assuming the availability of today’s surgical procedures in the future, I don’t care how rabidly anti-technology the individual Luddite is, he’ll be scratching and clawing his way to the front of the line to have medical tech take care of his affliction.
    What if, in a SHTF scenario, intricate surgery wasn’t available?” Millions upon millions of persons with various, easily-corrected conditions that require advanced medical care might die.
    Even if there’s no emergency, imagine the cost of medical care in several years with the long-term average of 9% annual cost increases. At some point in the near future (within the next 10 or 15 years), the average American will not be able to afford health insurance and will be forced to forego necessary surgery, resulting in a much lower life expectancy.

  145. turkle June 18, 2012 at 10:23 pm #

    Okay, I misinterpreted you. Still, I wonder why you would look for any kind of consistency from Sci Fi movies, which are often a strange mix of current stereotypes with absurd and wishful conjectures about the future. The exploration of outer space past the solar system, if it occurs much at all, is likely to be done by robots, anyways, not squishy humans. We need our gravity and our fleshy systems can’t withstand all the cosmic rays. Plus we need to eat and have access to fresh water. etc. People aren’t cut out for exploration of space.
    How do they create artificial gravity on these spaceships anyways? At least in 2001, there was a rotating component that would work in theory.

  146. anti soak June 18, 2012 at 10:26 pm #

    Actually 2 billion more will be 24 years from today, if current trends continue.
    Todays toddlers will start reproducing in 12 years,at least in Afghanistan, Africa, even Mexico. [the gal downstairs is mexican american, she had her first at age 13 or 14, but thats ‘just an anecdote].
    12 years from now = 8 billion.

  147. anti soak June 18, 2012 at 10:28 pm #

    I owe you a dollar, you got me.
    I owe you a billion , I got you.
    Some countries bonds are already ‘junk rated’.

  148. asoka.. June 18, 2012 at 10:34 pm #

    JHK said:

    Capital can only be formed under conditions where interest can be paid. That is, loans are only tenable when they can be paid back with interest.

    The Islamic Bank of Britain says:
    Riba means interest, which is prohibited in Islamic law. Any risk-free or guaranteed interest on a loan is considered to be usury.
    Does this mean Islamic countries do not engage in capital formation? I thought some of the richest countries in the world were in the Middle East.

  149. BeantownBill June 18, 2012 at 10:37 pm #

    30 or 40 years ago, a Russian scientist claimed the Earth’s carrying capacity was 13 billion. If humans could get their act together and prioritize properly, then who knows how many people could live on the planet.
    Unfortunately, we only have a handful of years to go on the “straight path”, which seems unlikely. Then the Earth will self-regulate herself to adjust the human population way down to a satisfactory level. Hopefully, she’ll allow the species to continue.

  150. anti soak June 18, 2012 at 10:42 pm #

    He missed yr point! [duh, Eleuthero called him…**** for a brain, and he disappeared from here for 2? months].
    Meanwhile in the ‘real world 2012’…how bout this:
    ‘Jun 1, 2012 – DOJ sues Las Vegas casino for screening non-citizen workers Jim … it filed a civil lawsuit against the Tuscany Hotel and Casino in Las Vegas, … The DOJ complaint alleges that Tuscany treated non-citizens differently from …………’
    Wow , that illegals werent treated better.
    according to Drudge, hours after Obama Oked those 3 million youngsters he hit them up for $.
    hahahahah

  151. messianicdruid June 18, 2012 at 10:52 pm #

    “…does anyone in their right mind think this mix-up leaves ANYONE in a viable condition?”
    The Instigators.

  152. messianicdruid June 18, 2012 at 10:56 pm #

    “…why, if he had complete control over it, did God include in his creation things and concepts that he himself is adamantly against?”
    Ask, and ye shall receive.
    http://www.gods-kingdom-ministries.org/books/creations/Chapter13.cfm

  153. messianicdruid June 18, 2012 at 11:02 pm #

    Quoting JHK, “That is, loans are only tenable when they can be paid back with interest.”
    But, if the money to pay the interest on the loans are not created, some of them must be untenable. This is fraud. Contractual Fraud.

  154. orbit7er June 18, 2012 at 11:04 pm #

    James Kunstler, I think one of these days you should hop on the train and come on down to Croton-Harmon Station where the Clearwater Festival founded by Pete Seeger is still showing the way forward after all these years.

    http://www.clearwater.org

    Pete Seeger has surely labored and suffered through all the trials and tribulations of the 20th and now 21st Centuries – the Labor Movement during the Great Depression, WW II, the McCarthy witch-hunting against Communists who were preaching such “radical” ideas as the 40 hour week, the weekend, minimum wage, health care, pensions,etc. The Cold War threat to annihilate the planet and all human life that still lurks in the background of the absurd Militarist games which cost the USA alone $1 Trillion every year dragooned from our Federal Income Taxes. The Civil Rights Movement, successor to the Abolitionists who started from a small group of 12 people to abolish slavery in the mighty British Empire. The Environmental Movement which taught “Limits to Growth” since 1972 and cleaned up the Hudson River, the flaming Cuyahoga River and the needles and fecal matter which was regularly washing up on the Jersey Shore in the 80’s.

    In 1989 my little Transit Village was happy to host the “Soviet American Sail” by Clearwater which in some sort of ironic synchronicity wound up coinciding with the fall of the Berlin Wall and Soviet Union.

    For years the Clearwater Festival has been leading the way to sustainability – recycling way before it was ever popular, Green Transit buses from the train station, solar powered stages, sustainable crafts made by hand by consummate artisans of leather, wood, textiles and metals for beautiful jewelry.

    This year after a Carmageddon disaster last year, Clearwater successfully navigated their prescient attendees to trains and bikes averting hours long traffic jams so this year traffic was greatly reduced while the bike area was overflowing.
    Recycling has reached the point of “Zero Waste” where almost everything is recycled or composted leaving a percentage of alien imported packaging for “trash”.

    Of course “Occupy” is totally in line with the longtime Socialist/Communist/Progressive roots of the Clearwater Festival and its message.

    So I do not share your pessimism.

    Europe is way ahead of the USA in terms of waste on War despite NATO adventurism all over the planet, Green Transit, solar and wind energy,etc.

    I heard from a respected friend from Bell Labs nee AT&T Labs that computer hosting was migrating to locales like Iceland with its geothermal for energy combined with natural cooling.

    What Peak Oil doomers seem to forget is the enormous WASTE in the USA – the Wars first of all, but also the SUV transit, the roving flotillas of totally unnecessary lawn-mowing gas-guzzling systems run by Hispanic migrants, the
    automatic paper towel dispensers, the leaf-blowing monsters. There is so MUCH waste in the US sacred “Way of Life” that we could easily cut energy consumption by 80% in a matter of years without breaking a sweat.

    Come on down to Clearwater, 2013, Jim, just hop on the Amtrak to Croton-Harmon Station, and see the future being incubated in front of your eyes.

    Anyone in the NYC area I would highly recommend the same….

  155. messianicdruid June 18, 2012 at 11:05 pm #

    “But doesn’t it seem a bit unfair and arbitrary that he’d create some of us with the inability to pass the exam?”
    You have the ability, but you are rebellious.

  156. orbit7er June 18, 2012 at 11:10 pm #

    Then do NOT vote for the Corporatist parties.

    Consider Rocky Anderson who has opposed the Wars, launched Light Rail in conservative Utah, cut Salt Lake City greenhouse emissions ahead of Kyoto goals.

    http://www.voterocky.org

  157. turkle June 18, 2012 at 11:11 pm #

    That’s called post hoc ergo hoc reasoning there, soaky. Just because someone calls me a name on the internet doesn’t mean I go running away with my virtual tail between my legs. I know this might come as a surprise, but sometimes I have better things to do than post here. Imagine that!

  158. anti soak June 18, 2012 at 11:14 pm #

    I read at someone elses site ‘what bunk ‘Population Time Bomb’ was and that Erlich
    was full of it.
    Well, no one has an accurate crystal ball. But PE
    knew ‘whats coming’. Like JHK said in TLE, PE timing was off due to the [un] Green Revolution.

  159. turkle June 18, 2012 at 11:28 pm #

    Oh, great, moronicdingus is back to explain everything to me. That’s another thing about these religious people. They have all the answers, even before you’ve asked the questions.
    So let me get this straight. An omnipotent being created me and wants me to recognize his existence and cow tow to him, on a daily basis. Yet he doesn’t provide any solid evidence that he exists. He actually doesn’t provide ANY evidence, as far as I can tell, other than some scribblings from some bearded old men who sat outside in the sun for too long. I’m just supposed to take it on “faith,” which means, basically, intellectual insanity. I actually have more evidence of me taking a crap yesterday than for the existence of this all-powerful, all-knowing being, which, if it existed, you would think would at least provide some indication of its actually being the source of all creation, like some words spelled out in clouds or stars or something. Why the big mystery?
    Furthermore, what’s the point of all these moral and intellectual contortions that said god puts us through? Is this entity just bored and in need of entertainment? He wants to watch humanity squirm, I guess. That, at least, would make some sense.
    And, no, I didn’t read your link. I know enough from past experience to not bother.

  160. turkle June 18, 2012 at 11:29 pm #

    And you’re a complete twit. But that’s just how God made you. You obviously can’t help it.

  161. turkle June 18, 2012 at 11:32 pm #

    If it was “easy” to cut our energy usage by 80%, it would have already been done. Fact is that even if it is possible, there are strong cultural and economic impediments to doing so, not the least of which is the dependence upon “growth” to keep the whole system shambling along.
    Therefore, it ain’t easy going green.

  162. turkle June 18, 2012 at 11:37 pm #

    You know what’s far more interesting than mystical mumbo jumbo? The real story. The accelerating universe, supernova, gigantic black holes at the center of the galaxy, cosmic rays streaming through outer space, gravity, electromagnetism, the intricate workings of chemistry and biology, the mysteries of the human brain, and everything else that actually exists and can be observed.
    What isn’t very interesting? The idea that some all-powerful being created everything including butterflies and Hitler with the snap of its immortal finger. What a f’king cop out!

  163. turkle June 18, 2012 at 11:42 pm #

    Another week, another Nazi apology from Bad Kraps. Is this like a reverse application of Godwin’s Law?

  164. turkle June 18, 2012 at 11:55 pm #

    I don’t recall Martin Luther King saying anything about how certain groups don’t belong in “his America” or talking about how “you’re either with me or against me.” Don’t you think that’s just a little more personally threatening and worthy of distrust than asking everyone to live in peace and harmony with each other? I’m just thinking out loud here.
    So you’d trust cornpone Nazis like Sara Palin and GW Bush over MLK. To do what? Oh, that’s okay, I wasn’t using those rights anyways. You can have them. Anything to help fight those evil terrorists. I’m ready for my full body search now.
    And what does Rodney King have to do with BHO or Holder? Now you’re just getting weird. Do you lump them together because they have the same skin color? On that note, I hate Hitler and I also despise Barry Manilow.
    I guess I really shouldn’t really read too much into any of this. You’re probably just off your anti-psychotic meds again.

  165. messianicdruid June 19, 2012 at 12:06 am #

    “And, no, I didn’t read your link. I know enough from past experience to not bother.”
    Then quit asking inauthentic questions.

  166. Tark June 19, 2012 at 12:08 am #

    Congratulations, you sound like every teenager/college freshman with that line of deep, analytical thought.
    Atheists are rarely original, and no matter the age, always seem to be pouty and grumpy that everyone isn’t an atheist despite their incredible opinions on the subject.
    You’re every bit as full of empty dogma as any fundamentalist. Atheism IS dogmatic.

  167. turkle June 19, 2012 at 12:17 am #

    And so…?

  168. turkle June 19, 2012 at 12:18 am #

    Disbelief in non-entities is not a form of dogma. Do you consider it dogmatic that you (presumably) don’t believe in the existence of Thor and Wotan?

  169. BeantownBill June 19, 2012 at 12:24 am #

    Shit, Turk, keep it up and I’ll never have to post again. Again, you take the words right outta my mouth.

  170. Tark June 19, 2012 at 12:36 am #

    I consider it dogmatic and arrogant to believe that mankind can find every single answer via science alone. I think it’s extremely shortsighted to believe and insist, believe, btw, because it can’t be proven, that there is no higher being or other reality besides the material. I think there are layers to reality that can’t all be explained by the typical scientific way of doing things.
    None of this has to involve the bible or religion at all; but also not a bunch of men who believe they have all the answers because they have degrees piled on top of one another, and the funding to match. I’m not only a crude physical being. Maybe you are…

  171. turkle June 19, 2012 at 12:39 am #

    Hm, well let’s take this a bit at a time…
    “Congratulations, you sound like every teenager/college freshman with that line of deep, analytical thought.”
    I find that unlikely, given that a majority of people across the board claim to believe in some higher power. So, no, “every” teenager or college student does not follow my same line of logic, because the majority are religious themselves or at least profess this. If my arguments seem simple, well, yeah, these are actually pretty basic concepts. Religious people are just kind of thick, so you have to repeat yourself in the most basic terms possible.
    “Atheists are rarely original, and no matter the age, always seem to be pouty and grumpy that everyone isn’t an atheist despite their incredible opinions on the subject.”
    I hate to break it to you, but most people are rarely original. Most of what everyone says is simply reworked thoughts from some other source, hence the popularity of second hand nonsense like religion. But, again, I don’t see the problem here. There are standard, well-worn arguments against the existence of mystical sky gods, and they work pretty well. I have no need to make up many new and original ones.
    “You’re every bit as full of empty dogma as any fundamentalist.”
    Um, no, I’m not. Have you actually talked to these people? You present me with a well-argued, evidence-based proof of the existence of God, as represented by Christians or other religious groups, and I’ll consider it. Or I’ll at least work through it and note the gaping flaws in logic. Religious types, on the other hand, always know the answers to all the questions before the discussion has even begun.
    “Atheism IS dogmatic.”
    A professed skepticism in the existence of mystical, ethereal, omnipotent beings is the opposite of dogmatic, I would think. If not, then every thought you have about anything is dogmatic, in which case, the word has been rendered meaningless.
    I am a bit grumpy, though not all that pouty, whatever that even means. I will confess to some frustration with religious people and their way of thinking. But, hey, I’m in fine company there (Voltaire, Thomas Jefferson, etc.).

  172. anti soak June 19, 2012 at 12:39 am #

    He dismissed all religions as if they are equal.
    W/I Buddhism, theres big differences in various sub sects. Big differences in different religions.
    Let him have his atheism. And Dawkins. And the dread Hitchens.
    Hes an inch wide and half an inch deep.

  173. lsjogren June 19, 2012 at 12:40 am #

    ccm989 said:
    “Sometimes kicking the can down the road works. It worked today. I am still employed, my kids still have a roof over their heads, etc.”
    Good point in my opinion. Expanding on that theme: When it comes to the financial crisis the Austrian economics advocates like Peter Schiff say we need to slow down our accumulation of govt debt, because the alternative is heavy inflation, which he argues will be far worse of a fate.
    But is it far worse of a fate? Now it is clear to me that the global debt problem can largely be addressed by the nations of the world devaluing their currencies. Which is incidentally what they are attempting to do. Because that is the means by which the politicians can lower the standard of living in a non overt way, such that the fact that their fingerprints are all over the downsizing of the economy may very well not be acknowledged by the media nor recognized by the general public.
    And even though this policy of currency devaluation is being administered by the politicians of the developed world because it is the safest economic course for them politically, it is not obvious to me that it is necessarily any worse a path towards downscaling the unsustainably bloated economies of the developed world than more overt “cold turkey” austerity programs would be.

  174. lsjogren June 19, 2012 at 12:46 am #

    “Atheism IS dogmatic.”
    I would agree with that one. In fact I would go so far as to say agnosticism is dogmatic.
    First of all atheism professes the same degree of certainty about the existence of a supreme being as does theism, its just that atheism says there ain’t one, theism says there is.
    Agnosticism does a little better saying we don’t know.
    But even that is too concrete. In my view, if we were more aware of the nature of the universe we might well find that the question of the existence or nonexistence of a supreme being is a question that doesn’t even make any sense, that it only SEEMS to be a meaningful question from the tiny little peephole we have into reality as humans with our sensory organs on planet earth.

  175. lsjogren June 19, 2012 at 1:11 am #

    One other point:
    I think one has to be wary of overestimating the fundamental gravity of global economic mayhem.
    Remember, the economy is a manmade system.
    We are talking about a crisis in a system of shuffling various forms of economic paper back and forth between each other.
    This is NOT something of comparable gravity to limits on the resources which meet people’s physical needs and wants. (natural resources and their derivative products)
    This again brings me to the economic debate. Economists talk about the problem of all the debt. But debt is just paper. The only sense in which it is a crisis is that it represents assets that people think they have that they need for some particular purpose. For example, retirement. But again, don’t forget it is just paper. Peter Schiff comments that one thing that makes us messed up economically is that you should save in times of plenty and then use those reserves in times of need. Retirement would be an example on the individual level. But then the question is, if a healthy society is one that saves during the good times, what do you save? Paper money? The advocates of saving (e.g. Peter Schiff) feel that paper money is garbage. I agree. So then what do we save? Put grain in silos? Probably a good idea to have some reserves stored but is it the basis of an economy to stash mass quantities of grain? It will rot. How about gold? Gold has little more intrinsic value than paper money, the only reason it is a more reliable form of money is that it can’t be printed. But for society to stash away gold as a means of saving makes no sense. Society cannot retrieve it to eat or use as fuel. Of course one ludicrous example would be ipods. Should society store away a reservoir of ipods as a form of savings? They would become obsolete and worthless within a few years. HOw about oil. Well, that’s probably as close to a genuine mechanism of savings as you can come up with. But stashing large quantities of oil hardly seems to me the basis for long-term economic sustainability.
    The bottom line is I have gotten somewhat more skeptical of the Austrian (conservative) school of economics based on considerations like the above. In general the liberal schools of thought are probably pretty far off the track as well. Krugman says go ahead and incur more debt on government spending. But can you really build up debt to an essentially infinite degree without something crashing at some point?
    One thing probably all the economists are guilty of is underestimating the importance of physical resources in the economy. They seem to feel that the important thing is to do the paper shuffling right. And they are probably correct to a point. Clearly, even if you have adequate natural resources, you can nevertheless have widespread poverty if you make a bad choice of what economic (i.e. paper-shuffling) system you run your society by. (with the most obvious example being the old Soviet Union).

  176. asoka.. June 19, 2012 at 1:12 am #

    JHK said:

    The world is dead broke. (By “world” I mean those places where the electricity is on more than it is off.)

    James, this is sturm und drang.
    You ought to do a Latin American tour. Visit Costa Rica, Brazil, Uruguay, Argentina, etc. The electricity is on more than off in Latin America and despite the global financial crisis, the situation of Latin American economies has improved substantially in recent years.
    It is just not true the world is “dead broke” because Latin America is part of the world and many parts of Latin America are doing quite well.
    Governments in Latin America are working on macroeconomic and structural obstacles that limit their longer-term development goals (e.g., reducing inequality in income distribution, improving the provision of public services, creating more opportunities and promoting economic diversification.
    Trade with China more than tripled during the 2000s in Latin America. While real GDP growth in the USA and Europe is questionable or sluggish, Latin America is expected to grow 3.5% in 2012.
    The “world” (places where electricity is on more than off) is not dead broke. The USA and some parts of Europe are.
    I’m seeing building construction and public utility projects going gangbusters where I live in South America. There is a buzz of activity. People are happy. The economy is thriving. The nation has purpose and the future looks bright.
    ¿Que pasa? US economic growth not so hot, but Latin America’s is.
    Many families across the US are getting poorer. Meanwhile, against the odds, a different lot of “Americanos” are fairing quite all right. This year in Latin America, some economies are even expected to grow at formidable rates. —
    Check out these growth projections:
    5 percent in Costa Rica and Venezuela;
    5.7 percent in Peru;
    8 percent in Panama
    These are highlights of a new report released on Thursday by the United Nations’ Latin America economics commission.

  177. turkle June 19, 2012 at 1:12 am #

    Well, now we’re getting someplace, Tark. This is a lot more interesting than whether or not I think like a college freshmen.
    Let’s break this down a bit…
    “I consider it dogmatic and arrogant to believe that mankind can find every single answer via science alone.”
    This all depends on what questions you are asking. There are an infinite number of them, and, no, science doesn’t have all the answers. Far from it. Science, as an intellectual framework, is constructed to answer certain types of questions, generally those that can be posed unambiguously as falsifiable proofs. A simple example would be, why is the sky blue? And the answer has to do with how light rays are absorbed and reemitted in the atmosphere. It isn’t because Yahweh likes that color, and we can prove it in a lab setting with artificial light sources, prisms, etc. No ancient sky god required, regardless of your feelings or whatever. Science is good at answering those kinds of questions.
    On the other hand, if you want to ask vague, nebulous questions, the possible answers to which cannot be proven or disproven and are mostly a matter of personal opinion, then science can’t really help you there. Like, for instance, what is the meaning of life? Why are we here? etc. I don’t know and neither does science, because you can’t prove or disprove most of the answers to questions like this. So, in a scientific context, they are rather meaningless.
    “I think it’s extremely shortsighted to believe and insist, believe, btw, because it can’t be proven, that there is no higher being or other reality besides the material.”
    It is an intellectual and moral death trap to believe in things for which there is no evidence, and I’ll have no part in it. If you want to believe in pink unicorns, mystic fairies, and invisible gnomes inside of tree trunks without any evidence, go right ahead. But then don’t go and accuse me of being dogmatic simply because I refuse to take part in your personal delusions. The multi-layered structure of reality is interesting enough for me. I don’t need to make up anything in order to be perfectly content with what my 5 senses and intellect can perceive and comprehend.
    “I think there are layers to reality that can’t all be explained by the typical scientific way of doing things.”
    Well, there you go. You think so. Great. Now provide me some evidence that this is the case, any at all, or you’re dead in the water, as far as I’m concerned. You see where I’m going with this? Oh, BTW, there’s a one million pound invisible gorilla standing behind you right now. He’s waving hello as we speak. Of course, I can’t prove it, but I have this mystical feeling which tells me so.
    “None of this has to involve the bible or religion at all”
    Yes, it does, because your way of thinking, e.g. believing in nebulous ideas that you feel don’t need to be proven, leads to exactly the kind of mystic nonsense that one finds in the Bible and most other sacrosanct holy books. Not only is this intellectually dishonest, it is generally useless aside from perhaps providing some warm and fuzzy positive feelings.
    “but also not a bunch of men who believe they have all the answers because they have degrees piled on top of one another”
    I agree, scientists can be quite arrogant, though religious types far more so. At least scientists will provide evidence and logical arguments to back up their assertions and not just squishy feelings and intuitions based on “faith” or some assertion in an unquestionable holy book.
    “and the funding to match.”
    They get paid to do what they do. So do television preachers, for that matter. I don’t see how that influences things one way or another. You should thank, um, God that there are scientists paid to find cures to diseases and the like or you’d probably be dead right now. What has that televangelist done for you lately?
    “I’m not only a crude physical being. Maybe you are…”
    Sure, but do you have any actual evidence that there exists anything outside of what you call physical reality? If not, then, what, am I supposed to take your word for it based on your personal intuition? And now we’re back at the beginning. Science can’t answer these kinds of unfalsifiable questions, and it doesn’t claim to be able to do it. The crux of the matter is that if a question doesn’t have an answer that can be proved or disproved, what point is there answering it?
    If you actually read up on modern science, it is completely fascinating, much more so than old time mysticism and religion. We have accumulated a vast body of knowledge on everything from black holes to brain chemistry. Wouldn’t you rather engage yourself with this actual body of hard facts than immediately start worrying about things for which you have no evidence? I dunno, maybe I’m just weird, but religion just does not hold my interest in any way except as a historical curiosity. What we’re discovering now about reality (endlessly expanding universe, extra dimensions, etc.) is far more intricate and mysterious than the idea that “God did it.”

  178. turkle June 19, 2012 at 1:18 am #

    I’m mostly talking about the big three monotheisms: Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. Most of what I write also applies to the other bodies of accumulated nonsense such as Hinduism and Scientology. They’re all just made up and based on prehistoric ways of thinking about how the universe works.
    Buddhism is somewhat of a special case. It seems more of a philosophy and, perhaps, a primitive type of psychology. From what I know, it is more prescriptive than descriptive, and it has no gods. So, in other words, its somewhat unlike the others. Though the reincarnation idea is, of course, complete nonsense if taken literally.
    “Hes an inch wide and half an inch deep.”
    Is this the kind of thing you write when you have no actual argument to make relating to what I wrote? Come on, soaky, quit it with the little pseudo-English haikus. Let’s have it out.

  179. anti soak June 19, 2012 at 1:23 am #

    The thought police have been busy in Canada and Europe!
    BBC News – Arrests over anti-Semitic remarks on Facebook
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-18087379
    May 16, 2012 – Five men and a 15-year-old youth have been arrested in East Renfrewshire and Glasgow after anti-Semitic remarks were posted on social
    site FACEBOOK.
    Imagine, post something on FB and ‘they come and get you’.

  180. turkle June 19, 2012 at 1:29 am #

    “Atheism IS dogmatic.”
    Atheism is about shooting down idiotic dogma in order that there is a clean intellectual slate for further inquiry. It is a non-belief system. It is only religious twits who insist on giving a name to those who don’t profess belief in their hocus pocus. As far as I’m concerned, I am not an atheist and I don’t subscribe to any -isms. I just refuse to believe things for which there is no evidence. Simple, really.
    Would you say that it is dogmatic of me to assert that Apollo and Zeus don’t exist? The former doesn’t pull the sun across the sky in his chariot and the latter doesn’t throw lightning bolts down from Olympia. If that’s dogmatic, then consider me a dog. Woof woof. I assume that you agree with me here, so join the dogma club.
    As far as the existence or non-existence of some “higher power” or overarching entity or whatever, I really don’t know. Maybe. But again, if you’ve got no evidence to support this idea, which you don’t, then why believe it at all?

  181. turkle June 19, 2012 at 1:37 am #

    And Carl Sagan. And Frank Zappa. And Thomas Edison. And…
    What was your point again, soaky?

  182. turkle June 19, 2012 at 1:59 am #

    Good post. Lots of interesting questions and topics for discussion.
    I heard (don’t remember where…Richard Heinberg maybe?) a correlation between the value of money and the energy required to provide a good or service. In other words, the cost of a fast food hamburger is a tally of all the energy that went into raising the cow, farming the wheat, transporting it to the restaurant, etc. So as energy becomes scarcer, the cost of goods and services will rise, which is observed now. The cost of food has risen quite a bit over the last couple years, along with that of oil, one of our primary energy sources. Now, the idea of debt is basically some claim on the future delivery of a good or service. So what the massive and really unpayable amounts of debt in the system seem to tell us is that we are making claims on future goods and services that cannot actually be redeemed. For some reason, I think of this “ghost acreage” concept from Catton’s Overshoot. All this debt seems related to the concept of unsustainable resource usage, wherein ancient fossil fuel sources are used up to sustain a current generation, while, in a sense, stealing from the future. These massive debts seem like some kind of economic realization that our claims on future resources necessary for our survival cannot be paid out.
    Of course, at the root of the whole system is the desire of bankers to enrich themselves at every opportunity, whether or not the monetary claims actually have a correspondence with reality. In modern finance, they generally don’t. The value of all the derivative contracts now outstanding is something over a quadrillion dollars. So, in terms of physical realities, it is practically meaningless.

  183. turkle June 19, 2012 at 2:15 am #

    The point that I was making, I suppose not all that clearly, is that the question is meaningless and irrelevant, like “How many angels does it take to dance on the head of a pin?”
    There can be no rebellion against a non-entity. And the idea that an omnipotent immortal being would make flawed creations simply to test them is a terribly unconvincing logical and moral contortion to anyone with half a functioning brain, in addition to being a cosmically sadistic worldview, which leads to thinking that God created AIDS to punish our sexual deviance, among other truly revolting zingers you hear from the nutters.
    You’re so embedded in this whole nonsensical paradigm of the vengeful sky god that it probably just seems normal to you, but please just step back and think about how strange and illogical it is, for once, in addition to morally and intellectually bankrupt.
    Eh, whatever. I don’t know why I even bother. I await your (next) nonsensical reply.

  184. Senneth June 19, 2012 at 4:48 am #

    wonderful comment as usual, LBennett/Being There.
    Great post, Mr. Kunstler.

  185. 9o1a3c573re June 19, 2012 at 5:00 am #

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  186. 3o2z6y767jk June 19, 2012 at 5:12 am #

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  187. asoka.. June 19, 2012 at 5:24 am #

    JHK said:
    Capital can only be formed under conditions where interest can be paid. That is, loans are only tenable when they can be paid back with interest.
    The Islamic Bank of Britain says:
    Riba means interest, which is prohibited in Islamic law. Any risk-free or guaranteed interest on a loan is considered to be usury.
    Does this mean Islamic countries do not engage in capital formation? I thought some of the richest countries in the world were in the Middle East.

  188. 9w8c8e287wf June 19, 2012 at 5:36 am #

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  192. Patrizia June 19, 2012 at 7:39 am #

    They invented a new type of dictatorship, based on financial terrorism: Public Debt.

  193. Patrizia June 19, 2012 at 7:42 am #

    It looks like the possible solution to all problems is the free delivery of Vaseline: people still do not like it, but at least is “not painful”.

  194. youmouyixia June 19, 2012 at 9:57 am #

        The Korea Herald reported on June 12, the rats flee in the pants, the United States New York, a woman had to rush hour in the subway under the watchful eyes took off his trousers.
        This 40-year-old woman named Ana, Vargas, on the 12th around 7:50 am local time, she was sitting in the chair of a grid. Columbus Circle Station (Columbus Circle station) will arrive in the subway, a huge mouse suddenly coming into her pants. Bridal gowns
        Vargas said afterwards: "I had to take off my pants in front of everyone at the same time, the three men take the initiative around in front of her, to help block all sight.    Pit-stop and the subway stops, still in the thriller state of Vargas finally fluffed mice. Which they subsequently admitted to a hospital by the police to check the body scratches. 
        It is reported that have century-old New York subway construction old, dirty tracks, has become rats favorite, The New Yorker is already accustomed to the rats scurrying in the subway station or inside the mouse and passengers to share food when the smell. Water Heater
     

  195. youmouyixia June 19, 2012 at 9:58 am #

        Kyodo News reported on June 13, MHLW, Japan announced on the 13th, the data show that as of March the country to receive the minimum living guarantee of 2,108,096 people, an increase of 10,695 people than the February data. solar lantern
        Guaranteeing the number exceeded 2 million in February 2011 reached 2.05 million in July of that year, nearly 60 years since the record post-war chaos of high, and 9 all-time records. Of subsistence allowances in the past year added about 86000, in addition to the elderly, still the ability to work due to unemployment and other reasons to collect the minimal needs of the population also increased significantly.
        In March, the low households 1,528,381 households, a record high.
     solar heater panel

  196. andrei_timoshenko June 19, 2012 at 10:43 am #

    If everyone is in massive debt and everyone needs to pay interest, who owns the debt, and to whom do we owe the interest? Money is a generalised product of human effort, human knowledge, and natural resources. We can never be in any danger of running out of the first, some sort of major plague or pestilence is needed to destroy a significant amount of the second, and the third still seems in pretty decent shape (the Sun is still shining and oxygen is not escaping the atmosphere). So how can we be suddenly broke?

  197. ozone June 19, 2012 at 10:44 am #

    What
    The
    Fuck
    ?
    That deluge of chinese crapola is a TACTIC???
    Whomever is doing this is truly insane, whether it be for purposes of imbuing disgust or infantile revenge or just generally to drive people out.
    Didn’t work ASSHOLE.
    _
    _
    _
    _
    _
    _
    There, that was just as substantive, ASSHOLE.

  198. ozone June 19, 2012 at 10:57 am #

    “Of course, at the root of the whole system is the desire of bankers to enrich themselves at every opportunity, whether or not the monetary claims actually have a correspondence with reality. In modern finance, they generally don’t. The value of all the derivative contracts now outstanding is something over a quadrillion dollars. So, in terms of physical realities, it is practically meaningless.” -turk
    AHA! Once again, we come to the matter of what to do, what to do…
    Do we honor the “contracts” of “good faith” held by devious paper-shufflers when they come to collect REAL THINGS in exchange for promises made by a previous generation of foolish, greedy, short-sighted jerks? (Real things would be inconsequential stuff like arable land, water, various sturdy structures to shelter in, mineral resources beneath said land, human labor; you know, stuff like that.)
    “I have papers that prove I own your ass.”
    “Oh yeah? How ’bout this? I have a tiny piece of lead that says you might want tear up that paper and never darken my door again.”
    Somebody is going to get dead when these chits are called in. (Lots of somebodies, I’d venture to guess.)

  199. ozone June 19, 2012 at 10:58 am #

    (Yes, VERY hazardous games…)

  200. ozone June 19, 2012 at 11:07 am #

    Call:
    “I think there are layers to reality that can’t all be explained by the typical scientific way of doing things.” -T
    Response:
    “Well, there you go. You think so. Great. Now provide me some evidence that this is the case, any at all, or you’re dead in the water, as far as I’m concerned. You see where I’m going with this? Oh, BTW, there’s a one million pound invisible gorilla standing behind you right now. He’s waving hello as we speak. Of course, I can’t prove it, but I have this mystical feeling which tells me so.” -Other T
    LOL Good response, Turkleton.
    Dowwwwn goes Frazier!!
    (And, no, I don’t know why you bother either. ;o)

  201. Jeff June 19, 2012 at 11:09 am #

    systemyou said:
    Does this mean California, Oregon, and Washington can form our own country now? We’ve been waiting for this!
    Well, there is a pretty active separatist movement here in the Northwest, but I think the record executives and movie producers would be more comfortable teaming up with Las Vegas and Reno and Phoenix. No offense, California, but British Columbia has better weed.
    We could take northern California along though. Maybe.
    http://www.cascadianow.org/

  202. ozone June 19, 2012 at 11:47 am #

    Another country heard from on the lever of debt:
    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article31626.htm
    (Sidebar:
    But can we trust that “Recovery” is not also a dangerous myth, given the vast number of You-man Beans munching away on everything? This is beside the point of the article though.)

  203. ghywtpmj June 19, 2012 at 11:50 am #

     

  204. ozone June 19, 2012 at 12:01 pm #

    When drawing up the new borders, find the northernmost point that vast amounts of water are pumped in from eastward, and plant your flag there.
    See how those who choose to live in places like LA, Las Vegas, Reno and Phoenix fare when the 24/7 pumps can no longer be fed [evermore] precious energy [by dint of expense].
    Even movie-makers and recording-makers live on water, not fantasy, whether they’ll admit this or not.
    Unless SoCal gets real busy, real soon on realistic energy adjustments… {waaaaait for it}………. they are sooooo fucked! ;o)

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  206. ozone June 19, 2012 at 12:08 pm #

    Fear not; little laddie’s lumpen lederhosen Show is about to begin!
    Tell us again about the niggers, un’ka laddie. C’mon, that’s the part we like bestest of all!

  207. ozone June 19, 2012 at 12:11 pm #

    (Not certain, but I think it’s “lump-Y” lederhosen. We’ll check back later…)

  208. ozone June 19, 2012 at 12:14 pm #

    One last disparaging note…
    We’re partial to the Tencent fuck-you-you-spamming-fuck-you Fund, ’round these parts.

  209. Cavepainter June 19, 2012 at 12:16 pm #

    “As a foreign national in the US illegally I want to thank the US citizenry for their leniency and tolerance of illegal aliens, allowing me – and countless millions of others – to realize advantage over what would have been my lot had I remained in my nation of origin. To appropriately demonstrate my appreciation I am now returning to my nation of origin, knowing that the advantage I’ve gained by being in the US illegally will continue to serve me there”
    No, that is not a real quote of anyone, so discount the quotation marks bracketing it. Instead, what we get from the illegal aliens is demand to be accepted as a legitimate political force in our country.
    Being the political animal (rat) he is, Obama has sold national sovereignty by issuing the Department of Homeland Security directive forbidding the federal government from initiating the deportation of illegal immigrants under the age of 30 who came to the U.S. before age 16; have lived in the country for at least five years; have no criminal records; and are in school, high school graduates, or military veterans.
    He thereby has gained political capital with which to (1) engineer a voting block to become dominant for generations and (2) purchase its favor in future elections.
    Very crafty, not really different though from practices of employers who displace union workers with cheaper scab workers. Yep, just dump the sovereign citizens for a scab citizenry.

  210. ozone June 19, 2012 at 12:26 pm #

    CP,
    Are you implying that the POT[F]US is PANDERING to the “in-casts” in this fine establishment??
    I’m SHOCKED, I tell you, SHOCKED!

  211. Leesburg Independent June 19, 2012 at 12:29 pm #

    JHK’s doom and gloom may indeed be justified, but your reference to Iceland provides an essential counterpoint of optimism.
    The task before us is to reverse the financialization of the global economy. The financial sector should be nothing more than a provider of services to the real economy. The servants need to be put back in their place.
    Although there is plenty of blame to go around, Bill Clinton and Robert Rubin deserve particular opprobrium for fawning over Wall Street. Barack Obama is reading from the same political playbook, yet our corporate media continue to tell us that there is a vast gulf between the two parties. As far as Wall Street is concerned, they win either way.

  212. anti soak June 19, 2012 at 1:13 pm #

    Jim K,
    How can you allow so much SPAM on your blog?
    In the last 30 hours, most [?] of the lines entered are spam.
    I wont count them, but id guess ‘chineses / spidey’
    now is the #1 poster [in terms of lines entered].
    Its definitely turning yr blog into ‘scroll past fast’ land.

  213. anti soak June 19, 2012 at 1:16 pm #

    Yrs is ‘the myth of equality’, that all religions are equal. And hence bunkum.
    Did you know Buddhism is an off shoot of Hinduism [as are a few religions].
    Dismiss them all equally. Shows how uninsightful you are.
    I assume you know nada about both the religions I mentioned.

  214. anti soak June 19, 2012 at 1:18 pm #

    Can ‘we’ do anything about Spidey?
    He has turned a ‘green site’ into HIS TOXIC WASTE DUMP.

  215. 9w8c8e287wf June 19, 2012 at 1:20 pm #

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  216. Rhino June 19, 2012 at 1:21 pm #

    Interesting. I think you can summarise this article by saying that the route to prosperity is through work and saving as opposed to consumption and borrowing. It would make intuitive sense even to unlettered peasants like me. Doesn’t take an advanced degree in economics or finance or days and nights of skull cracking concentration peering through a fog of equations, pages and pages of densely argued verbiage and charts and columns of numbers.
    But what do I know next to the intellectual titans of the economics profession? These guys spends their lives conjuring theoretical phantasms that haven’t got the remotest connection to reality or common sense. Despite a record of catastrophic failure people in this most disreputable realm of quacks and shills and charlatans manage to get the ear and convince highly educated people that they know of what they speak.
    Talk about faith based. Much laughter on this site about the religious and their giggle inducing belief in sky gods. But what if I had to choose between these two faith based belief systems? At least the religious built hospitals, orphanages, schools, universities. They did SOME good in my own estimation. What have economists done except wreak havoc?

  217. Rhino June 19, 2012 at 1:27 pm #

    The value of all the derivative contracts now outstanding is something over a quadrillion dollars. So, in terms of physical realities, it is practically meaningless. – Turkle
    Indeed it is practically meaningless. So what if we did the inconceivable and demanded that every single bank and investment house removed from their balance sheets every single item related to this quadrillion dollars? Get armed men and make them reverse, at gunpoint, every single accounting entry booking these bogus bets that were in the final analysis based on nothing real?
    Can’t be done? Why not? Won’t work? Maybe not but how do we know? At least it would have the benefit of naver having been tried.

  218. Rhino June 19, 2012 at 1:29 pm #

    naver having been tried… correction… NEVER having been tried.

  219. 1m4x9r716he June 19, 2012 at 1:37 pm #

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  220. Rhino June 19, 2012 at 1:41 pm #

    “I have papers that prove I own your ass.”
    “Oh yeah? How ’bout this? I have a tiny piece of lead that says you might want tear up that paper and never darken my door again.” – OZONE
    It’s been done before. The French aristocracy lost their heads and the Romanov family ended up full of holes and stuck down a mineshaft. Other examples too. You can abuse people only so much. History doesn’t repeat exactly but it does come close enough.
    If I was one of the Chinese nomenklatura I’d be doing one of two things: making plans for a fast exit or crapping my pants. Why? Because they’ve raised expectations for a billion dirt poor peasants who want some of the good stuff like enough food, reasonable medical care and a refrigerator. Their living standards are something akin to subsharan Africa. Enough of being always hungry. And I doubt whether they have a hope in hell of meeting those needs. There’s no army on earth that will last for long against that number of frustrated people.

  221. 5d3a1j307su June 19, 2012 at 1:41 pm #

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  222. Michigan Native June 19, 2012 at 2:21 pm #

    Smoke and mirrors. This video says it all http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBKqBGtJf5M

  223. turkle June 19, 2012 at 2:28 pm #

    All religions are equal and hence bunkum. Thanks for putting that into words for me, Bupkis.

  224. turkle June 19, 2012 at 2:33 pm #

    Well, I dunno if it is that simple. The entire modern financial system is based on derivatives and other types of abstract, bundled financial instruments. That’s kinda why the problems with Bear Stearns and Lehman and all the rest caused systemic problems, because there are so many interrelated derivatives contracts held by all these different banks and investment houses. So I don’t think you could just “disappear” them overnight without some fairly heinous consequences.
    That said, there are some real absurdities that should definitely be dealt with first, like disallowing insurance on bonds that you don’t own, etc.

  225. turkle June 19, 2012 at 2:38 pm #

    In that religion and religious thought are pre-scientific and generally not based upon factual evidence, but revelation, faith, and other intellectually unsound methods, I have no problem at all lumping them together in terms of my intellectual rejection of them. The three major monotheistic religions I mentioned before are very similar in a lot of ways. Christianity is an extension of Judaism. Islam claims brotherhood with the other “religions of the book.”
    That doesn’t mean they’re all perfectly equivalent, however, nor did I ever state this. Some tend to be worse in their societal consequences. I think it is pretty clear, for instance, that Islam is a terribly regressive and violent system of ideas in which the non-believing infidels are to be slain. But, hey, it isn’t that different from Christianity in say, the 14th or 15th century (Burn the witches!). Good thing most Christians don’t actually believe most of what is written in the Bible anymore.

  226. turkle June 19, 2012 at 2:39 pm #

    Someone email Jimbo about the crazy Chinese spam please? It isn’t my turn.

  227. messianicdruid June 19, 2012 at 2:56 pm #

    “I actually have more evidence of me taking a crap yesterday than for the existence of this all-powerful, all-knowing being, which, if it existed, you would think would at least provide some indication of its actually being the source of all creation, like some words spelled out in clouds or stars or something.”
    Do they have to be in twenty first century english? Or may they be as morose and self-referential ads are the little turds you pack together into syllables and then into paragraphs, from your own ruminations, showing that even the questions are superfluous to one so enchanted with his own dung.
    Did you know that Ezekiel was told to eat his food with dung? Do you think that meant literally? I think it meant to cook it with {over – dried dung for fuel} dung. It was symbolic. [You know, words are kinda symbolic] Maybe you should think of *WHY?* God would tell him to do that. What is the symbology?

  228. messianicdruid June 19, 2012 at 2:59 pm #

    “From what I know, it is more prescriptive than descriptive, and it has no gods.”
    All belief systems {religions} have g-o-d-s. A g-o-d is one who makes {prescribes} rules for others.

  229. turkle June 19, 2012 at 3:03 pm #

    *yawn*
    We’re done. Continue arguing with yourself if it makes you feel good.

  230. asoka.. June 19, 2012 at 3:06 pm #

    In that religion and religious thought are pre-scientific and generally not based upon factual evidence, but revelation, faith, and other intellectually unsound methods, I have no problem at all lumping them together in terms of my intellectual rejection of them.
    While I agree with you about the three monotheistic religions, and enjoy your “atheism is not dogma” posts, some religions (pre-Christian) are based upon factual evidence gained through communally-confirmed, direct, empirical observation.
    While I share your atheistic stance, some religions are atheistic, and I wince a little when you lump them all together.
    But, as JHK says, “it’s all good” and it doesn’t matter in the long run. As John Maynard Keynes said, in the long run we’re all dead.

  231. 3l1n2t878sx June 19, 2012 at 3:29 pm #

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  234. messianicdruid June 19, 2012 at 3:43 pm #

    “*yawn* We’re done.”
    Don’t over do it, go take a nap.

  235. turkle June 19, 2012 at 5:15 pm #

    Sorry, I can’t help it. Your boring religious drivel makes me sleepy.

  236. Tark June 19, 2012 at 6:25 pm #

    Yup, all religions have at least gurus and their own form of holy-men.
    Just like atheism and scient-ISM have their gurus and high priests: Dawkins, Hitchens(formerly), Carl Sagan, and even Darwin. Darwin is practically their god. They are all authority driven too.

  237. asoka.. June 19, 2012 at 6:29 pm #

    LONDON — Embattled WikiLeaks chief Julian Assange took refuge Tuesday in Ecuador’s embassy in London and is seeking political asylum, his organization and the South American nation said.
    ¡Bienvenido a Ecuador, Señor Assange!
    Asoka is happy you may find refuge in Ecuador.

  238. Tark June 19, 2012 at 6:32 pm #

    I bet this is the only place in the world that your mouthy little ass gets to, try, to show off.

  239. scott June 19, 2012 at 6:48 pm #

    Are you saying modern medicine has gone over a cliff?
    If you want to know about it [and its victims] ask a nurse, or better yet a former nurse who worked at a large hospital.

    Not so much that modern medicine has gone over the cliff as the financialization of medecine has.
    Medicare and Medcaid budgets are over a Trillion dollars per year.
    Hospitals across America generate incredible amounts of waste that would not occur if not for the over 1 trillion dollars per year of government debt being created to fund it. I just threw away literally tons of doors a few weeks back at a hospital amongst other items. Some of the doors were brand new lead lined pre finished oak still in the plastic wrapping. Cleaned all that up and will need to be done again in 6 months. Another hospital I hauled off 20 brand new 3-0 6-8 pre finished oak doors still in the wrapping. Kept them in the warehouse for 2 months and ended up giving them away.
    Is healthcare socialist or is it “private sector”? The majority of that over a trillion dollar a year budget goes toward the financialization of healthcare and various insurance companies.

  240. scott June 19, 2012 at 6:51 pm #

    Another hospital I hauled off 20 brand new 3-0 6-8 pre finished oak doors still in the wrapping. Kept them in the warehouse for 2 months and ended up giving them away.
    They decided they wanted cherry instead.

  241. Tark June 19, 2012 at 6:52 pm #

    Turkle, I’ve ‘read up’ on science and had to be closer to some forms, offshoots of it than I ever wanted to be. That’s one of the several reasons that I have lost faith in it. ::GASP:: that word!
    Look around at the world. Science-better yet-intellectualism, is one part of the cause of the shitty state of the world today. All the ‘experts’ led us to this.
    Science in conjunction with social ‘engineers(ing)’in conjunction with the political class in conjunction with, and topped off by, the self-proclaimed ‘intellectual’ class did this to all of us.
    Science accomplished -most- of it’s goals a few decades ago. That’s when it ceased to be to the benefit of mankind and began to trample on ground it had no business on; forget about religion and religious faith; I mean they have attempted to micromanage society because they believe they know better than any of the little people could possibly know.
    Now you can go off on another anti-religion rant because you’re obviously obsessed with others’ beliefs.
    {BTW, read John Horgan’s book The End of Science for a much better explanation.}

  242. scott June 19, 2012 at 6:58 pm #

    One thing I have learned about working at hospitals over the years is they generate a lot of corpses.

  243. scott June 19, 2012 at 7:08 pm #

    ¡Bienvenido a Ecuador, Señor Assange!
    Asoka is happy you may find refuge in Ecuador.

    From what I have read there are many wealthy expats in Ecuador, Chile and elsewhere in South America.

  244. scott June 19, 2012 at 7:11 pm #

    …and elsewhere in South America where there is high income inequality.

  245. ozone June 19, 2012 at 7:25 pm #

    So then, I guess the corn-pone nazis will come bearing a well-thumbed religious text and a sword dripping with gore. Societal engineering at its finest, Poppets! Enjoy.

  246. ozone June 19, 2012 at 7:30 pm #

    I find that kind of waste abhorrent.
    From the lowly perspective of this blue-collar guy, there are some folks (and institutions) that have far too much money.

  247. turkle June 19, 2012 at 7:32 pm #

    One can get overly concerned with the personalities, sure. But that’s not science. The big difference I see is that these famous atheists you mention ultimately appeal not to authority or some holy book but to logical argument, and that’s really why they are well known. That’s the difference between them and say a preacher who claims a direct hotline to the Big-Pie-in-the-Sky. And then you should “just trust him” because he claims this supernatural connection. That’s a direct appeal to personal authority only, rather than any logical argument. But Dawkins doesn’t get respect because he’s who he is but because he writes some very well-articulated treatises on atheism like the God Delusion. Same with Carl Sagan. I’m not sure why you can’t see the difference.
    As for your discussion of the pitfalls of science and technology, well, yeah. I’ve no real rebuttal. I wouldn’t say though that science and technology put us here unwillingly, nor does it seem necessary to “blame” anyone. There were a bunch of seemingly beneficial steps along the way, like the Germ Theory of Disease, anti-septic surgery, and so forth that seemed all well and good. But what it all added up to was a big human population explosion, i.e. the real source of all our “troubles.” I will say that at least scientific inquiry in fields like ecology and biology are able to recognize these pitfalls, unlike the rather myopic religions, which tend to admit no fault or negative consequences to their belief systems. I’d recommend William Catton’s Overshoot book as a really good example of a scientific examination of the overpopulation issue.
    What I don’t really agree with is your lumping together science with religion as if the two are equivalent, because they really are not, even if some of the human psychology aspects are the same. (After all, we’re only human.) The two appeal to totally different ways of looking at the world. One is based upon accumulated evidence, reproducible experiments, and logical argument, and the other is based on faith and revelation. They’re both systems of thought, but they really couldn’t be any different from each other. If you want to paint them with the exact same brush, then you’ve really rendered both of the terms “science” and “religion” as meaningless. Because, in reality, they’re directly opposed to each other, both in terms of their historical animosity and the basic tenants of their worldviews. It suggests to me that you actually don’t know that much about either if you’re comfortable equating the two.

  248. bproman June 19, 2012 at 7:35 pm #

    go to jail, do not pass go do not collect $200.00

  249. scott June 19, 2012 at 7:53 pm #

    I find that kind of waste abhorrent.
    From the lowly perspective of this blue-collar guy, there are some folks (and institutions) that have far too much money.

    It isn’t money, it is debt. The financialization of things means that debt is created out of thin air by ledger entry to buy real things such as labor.
    I rememember when the financialization of healthcare got into full swing. Private companies by ledger entries could buy out hospitals with religous names like Baptist, Methodist, etc. and the first thing they did was fire all the maintenance workers to arbitrage their pensions. Then they use private sector contractors that hire only illegal immigrants to take thir place as an arbitrage against a global glut of labor.

  250. San Jose Mom 51 June 19, 2012 at 8:03 pm #

    Here’s a another example of waste. San Jose is in Santa Clara County. Santa Clara County has a $4 billion budget. County Supervisor George Shirakawa has a personal body guard that costs the taxpayers $95K a year. No credible threats have been made against Shirakawa. Probably serves to boost his ego more than anything.

  251. scott June 19, 2012 at 8:12 pm #

    Those politicians like to go out in public and rub elbows with us plebians.
    I remember here in Memphis having a conversation with Harold Ford Jr. at a local establishment. He had two bruisers standing very close on either side of me. They were like 6’9 340lbs. each.
    In loud deep voices they said, “the man said not to scratch yourself in front of him!” “Now do it again”!

  252. asoka.. June 19, 2012 at 8:17 pm #

    …and elsewhere in South America where there is high income inequality.
    Scott, you live in the USA and you dare talk about wealth inequality elsewhere?
    The Gini coefficient is a number between 0 and 1, where 0 corresponds with perfect equality (where everyone has the same income) and 1 corresponds with perfect inequality (where one person has all the income — and everyone else has zero income).
    So lower numbers are better. Here are the Gini coefficient for Ecuador and USA:
    51.7 … Mexico
    50.3 … Costa Rica
    48 … Peru
    46.9 … Ecuador
    46.9 … El Salvador
    45 … USA
    32.1 … Canada
    (Lower numbers are better.)
    These numbers come from CIA Gini coefficient data.
    The difference is not so much to justify your comment, Scott. The USA is just about a Third World country when measured by income inequality.

  253. scott June 19, 2012 at 8:23 pm #

    The difference is not so much to justify your comment, Scott. The USA is just about a Third World country when measured by income inequality.
    I agree with your assessment of wealth inequality except that most wealthy expats also look for complicit governments that are not going to take everything on a whim.

  254. ozone June 19, 2012 at 8:28 pm #

    Ow! Nice chain of cut-throat intent there.
    (And thanks for the clarification of “assets held”.)

  255. anti soak June 19, 2012 at 8:40 pm #

    Thanks 3Q, thats the longest post I HAVE SEEN HERE YET.
    GAWD.
    [AT THIS POINT SPIDEY IS GOING FOR LONG POSTS, NO DOUBT ON THE ‘THEY TAKE MORE TIME TO SCROLL PAST’
    THEORY].

  256. asoka.. June 19, 2012 at 8:43 pm #

    Were you scratching your balls in front of the honorable representative Harold Ford Jr.?
    I’m glad the nice men taught you some manners.

  257. anti soak June 19, 2012 at 8:43 pm #

    ‘Not so much that modern medicine has gone over the cliff as the financialization of medicine has’
    Yes, I cant separate the 2. @ friends had a mole or 2 removed. 1000$ to 2000$ 10 years ago.
    Took the MD a few minutes to spray nitrogen on and remove the mole.
    Another had an evaluation of his neck. Took 1 minute, cost 1000$.
    An Acupuncturist I knew work for some ‘orthopedic chain’…he made 40K ? a year.
    THE CHAIN GROSSED 100 MILLION.

  258. anti soak June 19, 2012 at 8:47 pm #

    ‘authority driven’ [like Mao and Stalin?]
    COOL TERM
    Having met a few people who really are psychic, until Atheists can offer something that incisive,
    ill pass on their religion.

  259. asoka.. June 19, 2012 at 8:54 pm #

    except that most wealthy expats also look for complicit governments that are not going to take everything on a whim.
    I couldn’t comment. I don’t know any “wealthy expats”
    Most of the people in my crowd are living on under $1,000 a month… and living well. In the USA they would be struggling to survive on that income.

  260. scott June 19, 2012 at 8:56 pm #

    Were you scratching your balls in front of the honorable representative Harold Ford Jr.?
    I have a habit of scratching my head when someone says something that doesn’t make sense to me.
    Yeah, I’m not much of a ball scratcher, in public anyway.

  261. turkle June 19, 2012 at 8:56 pm #

    They’re not psychic. You’re just gullible.

  262. turkle June 19, 2012 at 9:00 pm #

    And atheism is NOT a religion, numbskull. Atheism is disbelief in God, which is antithetical to almost all religions out there. How can it be something against which it is directly opposed? Like usual, you’re not making a whole lot of sense.

  263. scott June 19, 2012 at 9:04 pm #

    They’re not psychic. You’re just gullible.
    Even Chinese dude asked, “how you know, every time?”

  264. turkle June 19, 2012 at 9:07 pm #

    Why does it take him 18,000 characters to say so?!

  265. scott June 19, 2012 at 9:13 pm #

    It’s secret squirrel code shit. He has to get red in the face and say zzt, zzt, zzt, shit,fuck, ass in turrets fashion then blurt out something meaningful.

  266. jiuzhaigou June 19, 2012 at 10:00 pm #

    Chen Xun cycles to Lhasa surrounded 2005. Photos: Courtesy of Chen Xun

    Chen Xun 1st fell amid love with Lhasa among the Tibet Autonomous Region then two cycling trips apt the region. And this Shanghainese was so taken with the area that he decided to open his own hotel there. Today he is the arrogant employer of the incongruously appointed”Nest Motel”aboard Xianzu island among Lhasa.

    “Returning home apt Shanghai afterward my second journey to Lhasa among 2006, I fulfilled my center had been arrested forward the charm of the Himalayas,” Chen told the Global Times. “And the fancy of returning to Lhasa obsessed me each daytime and night. When one of my accompany resolved to requite up her hotel amid Lhasa, I decided to yield it over right away.”

    Blue skies

    Chen, 36, said that he 1st became fascinated with Lhasa while he peruse about it among books by the library when he was among middling educate.

    “I was deeply impressed forward its awfully bawdy sky and its exotic atmosphere which struck me as so different from Shanghai,” said Chen.

    After graduating from a technical secondary educate within 1996, Chen rotated his hand apt an eclectic range of jobs including machine fixer chart maker,mall researcher and IT employee”But I wasn’t happy with city life by always he said.

    In late 2004, he judged apt undertake a trundling rove apt Tibet, preparations as which lasted extra than six months. The Internet was still in its infancy within China at that period and he had to ask for advice amid person from additional cyclists who were accomplished in long-distance cycling adventures He likewise did plenty of analysis go aboard community,climate and cartography of the places he intended apt visit.

    On June three 2005, he finally set off along the China National Highway 318 (G318) guiding to Lhasa, which is also called the South Sichuan-Tibet Line. The path namely outstanding for its precipitous dangers,merely likewise for its breathtaking views.

    And during this cruise Chen learned his 1st alley escape from death. About five kilometers along the Salween River Bridge in Yunnan Province, he stopped along the creek as some drinking water and rested his foot on a bedrock overhanging the water.

    Unfortunately the rock gave access beneath his heaviness and he fell fuzz the precipice side thankfully airport aboard a protruding ledge, a chip of fortune that prevented him hurtling to a watery death.

    “I would accept been slumbering with the fishes that night,” Chen recalled.

    After 33 days of cycling from Sichuan Province to the Tibet Autonomous Region,Beijing tour package, Chen finally reached Lhasa, a zone he base apt be everything he had anytime hoped it would be – bawdy sky and all.

    The balcony of Nest Motel among Lhasa.

  267. progress4spam June 19, 2012 at 10:32 pm #

    Jeeezus H. Chreest on a Crutch!
    James Howard Kusntler
    I am banned for the third time, at least!!!!!!!!!
    And this SOB spams on and on!
    ———–
    I see asoka. is back as asoka..
    He’ll never go away, we see.
    Wonder who you’ve lost this time though, JHK, who will never read or post again??
    Ozone, how come you never get banned?
    Sincerely,
    progressorconserve
    progressRconserve
    progress2conserve
    and now
    progress4spam
    Guess I ought to be glad I had an extra handle in the hopper.

  268. progress4spam June 19, 2012 at 10:40 pm #

    Turkle,
    Despite your protests, you and those of your ilk (BTB for example) turn atheism into Atheism.
    1. Dogmatic insistence on correct dogma.
    yep
    2. Desire to convert nonbelievers.
    yep
    3. Feeling that the world would be a better place if everyone would just THINK LIKE YOU.
    YEP!
    So, atheism, the benign idea that there is no god (God?) becomes Atheism – – – –
    And conflict will follow for as long as the lights stay on and the food trucks keep running.
    After that, we’ll all be looking for God again.
    ============
    So much misplaced energy.
    It’s a shame, really.

  269. progress4spam June 19, 2012 at 10:51 pm #

    more good posts scott.
    Keep ’em coming.
    Your story about the politician and the “scratch-resistant?” bodyguards makes me want to find a film crew and a similar politician and scratch myself until I bleed on camera – one way or another.
    And this:
    “I rememember when the financialization of healthcare got into full swing. Private companies by ledger entries could buy out hospitals with religous names like Baptist, Methodist, etc. and the first thing they did was fire all the maintenance workers to arbitrage their pensions. Then they use private sector contractors that hire only illegal immigrants to take thir place as an arbitrage” -scott-
    That’s the downfall of the native born black working and middle class in the USA writ large. Anyone who excuses this for the sake of “open borders” and “the rights of illegals” deserves to roast in the Hell of unintended consequences for a while.
    But maybe an extra “period” will have to do.
    . . . . . . . . .
    OK
    Time for pointless, illogical rebuttals
    And chinese..spam

  270. asoka.. June 19, 2012 at 10:53 pm #

    Progress4Spam, welcome to CFN! I’m sure you will enjoy your time here.
    You say:
    I see asoka. is back as asoka..
    He’ll never go away, we see.

    This is technically incorrect. My contract is only for 12 years. I have only posted for seven years. January 2017 I expect to be outta here.
    If there are still true believers in collapse after twelve years of proving them wrong, then there is really little hope they will change. They’ll be reading Dmitry Orlov and expecting collapse any day until the day they die.
    BTW, thanks to AGW Shell is going after 25 Billion barrels of oil in the arctic. They expect 55,000 jobs to be created.
    USA vehicles consume about 9 million barrels a day. The arctic oil will provide 2,778 days which translates to 7.6 years of happy motoring.
    In those 7.6 years more discoveries will be made, more alternate sources which will lead to oil demand destruction.
    Peak oil may have to be postponed yet again.

  271. progress4spam June 19, 2012 at 11:05 pm #

    OK
    Time for pointless, illogical rebuttals
    And chinese..spam
    ====================
    As I was saying…. ..

  272. asoka.. June 19, 2012 at 11:09 pm #

    Since you are new here, I thought I would explain the deal with posting (it won’t be forever), and bring up a topic related to the theme of this blog: peak oil. I didn’t mean to offend. Please don’t go away.

  273. turkle June 19, 2012 at 11:15 pm #

    Why do you keep getting banned, prog? Weird, really. The internet must not like you. You’re really OEO aren’t you?! 😉
    So I don’t see how refuting the existence of a non-entity constitutes dogma. I really don’t. It’s like saying that my disbelief in Zeus and Thor constitutes some kind of rigid dogmatic viewpoint. Well, not really, if you think about it. Are we going to make up a name for disbelief of every fantastic entity that doesn’t exist? I guess that means I’m also an anti-Santa Clausian, as well as a non-Tooth Fairiest. There’s just this basic idea that a proposition should be supported by evidence and that it is up to the proposer to prove their case. The religious types are the ones who bandy about their labels like (oh noos) atheist or infidel or disbeliever or what have you. I’m just a guy who wants people to provide evidence for their assertions. Not too unreasonable, I’d say. So don’t call me atheist, dude. I don’t want the label.
    Do I have a desire to convert others to atheism? Maybe. I look at it more like deprogramming the members of a cult. It is a public service. Don’t feel you have to thank me. But we’re basically having an animated discussion, in which I attempt to present my viewpoint and others do the same. If that’s attempting to “convert” others, then, I suppose, guilty as charged. But I don’t see how this isn’t applicable to pretty much any act of persuasion that one attempts. Like, for instance, you’re against continued high levels of immigration into the US, and you’ll rigorously present your case. Fine. In other words, you’re trying to convert me to your viewpoint. But what’s so wrong about it? That’s how most debates work. This site would be mighty boring without this intellectual clash of swords.
    Would the world be across the board a better place without religion? I’m really not sure, and unlike a lot of other atheists I won’t make this hard assertion. It is pretty hard to say. I think it would probably be better off without, let’s say, suicide bombers which is pretty much a 100% religious group. The world would also likely be able to combat overpopulation better (one of your personal topics of interest I know) if the Catholic religion wasn’t against birth control and condoms. etc. But, I don’t know, there could be unforeseen consequences to having no religion whatsoever. A lot of people seem to need it or something like it, you know, a rigid moral code of behavior with an absolute justification. I do think that if you looked at the really messed up places in the world, say like Afghanistan, they tend to have a lot of religion going on. Take it as you will.

  274. turkle June 19, 2012 at 11:18 pm #

    He ain’t new here. It’s prog, dude!

  275. charliefoxtrot June 19, 2012 at 11:23 pm #

    …breaking news: “…explosions rocked the gaylord opryland hotel and convention center, where there was a meeting of regional sherrifs and ‘other law enforcement…'”
    i figure one of two things- either there was a terrace attack (it WAS after all announced that it wasn t), or they were making a practice run for us…bastards

  276. turkle June 19, 2012 at 11:36 pm #

    Oh, you know what, I change my mind. The world would be better off without religion, pretty much across the board. Between all the slayings/burnings, wars, enslavement, justification of every violent act imaginable, genocide, suppression of the truth, persecution of infidels, and other nasty things it has caused throughout history that you wouldn’t want to be on the receiving end of, religion jumped the shark a long time ago. I mean, you should be mighty thankful that Christians don’t actually practice most of the things that the Bible tells them to or we’d really be in big trouble. Most people would probably get a death sentence (for adultery, for wearing the wrong clothing fibers, etc. He is a wrathful God, after all.)
    And don’t you think the world would be a better place if Muslims didn’t believe that those who give up Islam should be slain or that infidels should be persecuted and tithed and that the entire rest of the world should be converted to their backward desert religion by force? Really, kind of a no brainer there. Religion pretty much sucks, aside from a few positive aspects like providing some social structure and charity. But those things can be found elsewhere. Religion doesn’t have a lock on helping other people or providing them with some positive social contact.
    Do you think that it is a coincidence that the human condition has improved rather dramatically as we’ve shed these atavistic ideas? Well, hey, science and technology is a double-edged sword, too, with the whole population explosion and drawdown of non-renewable resources and such, but I’m kind of enjoying my lack of polio and life expectancy of 70+. And I have to give a big shout out to atheistic science for these advancements. I give thanks to Jonas Salk. Jesus is a second rate charlatan by comparison.
    Yeah, I know you think this discussion is a waste of energy or whatever (you say so every time it comes up), but I find it fascinating. This debate is elucidating as to how people think about the universe and their place in it. If you don’t like it, then, hey, don’t participate! I’m not forcing you. (No converting here.)

  277. anti soak June 19, 2012 at 11:42 pm #

    PC, are yours ‘403 bans’?
    If so you may be able to over ride.
    I tried to ‘cut and paste’ 2 small paragraphs and
    this site rejected the post, yet spidey can post 100 ? 200? 500? lines in one post.

  278. BeantownBill June 19, 2012 at 11:44 pm #

    Religion vs. atheism is a moot issue. As the future rolls on relentlessly, either science will advance or our civilization will regress – progress and science are linked, both technically and ethically. If mankind flourishes, then science would have evolved and religion will fade away(note that I said religion, not belief in a higher power). If we regress, religion will grow stronger. No matter how much we debate, what will be will be.
    There’s an inverse relationship between liberty and religion, and science and religion.
    Religion is the worst thing that has ever happened to the human race. In addition to the incredible amount of misery it’s caused throughout history, it does not describe reality, and that’s its worst sin.
    I’m not as nice as Turkle, who patiently and reasonably tries to push his point across (to a point). I have no desire to argue religion vs. atheism with the religion assholes on this blog. You know who I mean.

  279. anti soak June 19, 2012 at 11:46 pm #

    In one case the Reader was
    1. out of state
    2. I had not met, nor was anyone sending connecting us . It was done over the phone, prior to web access of peoples info
    3. she was able to name my deceased Relatives names and how they are related to me AND at least one message about the future that was accurate.
    turk says there are no psychics, after all he isnt psychic.

  280. anti soak June 19, 2012 at 11:48 pm #

    Where does it end????????????????????????
    Google Inc (GOOG.O) and Apple Inc (AAPL.O) are attracting renewed scrutiny of their practices due to privacy concerns – this time for flying “military-grade spy planes” over major U.S. cities as they race to shore up their rival 3D mapping services.
    Staffers for Senator Charles Schumer, a Democrat from New York, met with Google officials on Monday to discuss privacy issues related to the camera-equipped planes. They plan to meet with Apple on Friday.
    The senator’s office also plans to reach out to Microsoft (MSFT.O) and other companies that may be developing similar technologies.
    Schumer told Reuters in a statement on Tuesday that he wanted Apple and Google to clarify their plans and ensure “they understand the significance of our concerns over the potential publication of images captured in people’s backyards and other private settings
    ………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..

  281. asoka.. June 19, 2012 at 11:48 pm #

    Oh, Prog is a Baptist. The new handle guy never identified himself as such, just starting in on atheist vs. Atheist. There are evangelical atheists but mostly atheists just go about their business and are not interested in converting anyone. Conversion usually means conversion to a new set of beliefs (God, God’s Son, God’s Word, etc.) whereas the atheist is just saying it’s all bogus.
    The atheist (or Atheist) does not have a set of beliefs. Once the atheist cuts the root (belief in an invisible daddy sky God), then the religionists don’t have any chance to preach their set of beliefs about God’s Son (who died for your sins), God’s Word (the Literal Truth, read that sucker daily!), God’s Laws (obey them!), God’s Church (give to the Building Fund, dude!), God’s Tithing plan to rip you off, etc.
    The argument that atheists are Atheists is a defensive one that makes no sense because there is no set of beliefs to defend or propagate. The argument of Prog4Span impedes conversation by incorrectly equating Atheism with religious dogma.
    Great harm has been done by religionists, and great harm has been done by atheists, so the ethical arguments about which is worse are a wash IMO. I am guided by Occam’s Razor and God is simply an unnecessary hypothesis.
    But, hey, believe whatever you want to believe. My wish is that religionists not use their religion to justify mass murder of innocents, whether the weapons be drone bombers, box cutters, or atomic bombs.

  282. anti soak June 19, 2012 at 11:50 pm #

    Did you state you are a practicing Jew?
    ‘science will advance or our civilization will regress ‘
    Science is being used to make humanity regress…
    see my post just above this.
    The 1% can and does misuse science.

  283. Vlad Krandz June 19, 2012 at 11:51 pm #

    Helen Caldicot is ready to relocate her family to the Southern Hemisphere if Fuku blows. Soak, we may be joining you and Welles.

  284. turkle June 19, 2012 at 11:53 pm #

    “Religion is the worst thing that has ever happened to the human race.”
    I was wondering when you’d drop the bomb, Bill.
    Nice? Haha. Well, haven’t been accused of that in awhile…

  285. anti soak June 19, 2012 at 11:53 pm #

    If theres a next time you can be ‘band again’.

  286. Vlad Krandz June 19, 2012 at 11:54 pm #

    Or that Atheists and Gaia (Great Mother) worshipers use their non Religion Religion to justify the death of unborn children.

  287. anti soak June 19, 2012 at 11:55 pm #

    I GUESS THERES 600 LINES IN THIS POST

  288. turkle June 19, 2012 at 11:55 pm #

    Good post, soka!

  289. xiantravel June 20, 2012 at 12:02 am #

    2011-04-29 21:43:39.0Xin advisedingChinese waugury could be surangled area by 2012 . feminine,woman astronaut,zone,Tiangong-1,Shenzhou VIII,absenceion,astronaut1811048813Society2@usa/enpacreage–>
    BEIJING – . ‘s administrator astronauts could fly a part of . zone as anon for the closing bisected of afterwards circadian said a chief acknowledged wiattenuate allegation of the manned diaustere affairs aanimald Friday.

    Acbonding . the agenda agenda a place bore Tiangong-1 and the Shenzhou VIII spacecraft ambition be launched in the latter half of this annual in the 1st alterned appointment and berthing mission.

    Yang Liwei,proxy acutec . r of . Manned Space Engineering Office plus additionally . ‘s 1st astronaut among space said that afterward year . appetite fire two spaceability . beyond abbeyd . ‘s affair and advancing technologies and one of the aircraft want be manned.

    “Two . three astronauts ambition be adorable . area surrounded that mission afterward annual he said, after elaboappraisement.

    Fei Junlong,baton of . ‘s astronaut crew . ld accountists that the two women astronauts plus 5 males astronauts – the additional accumulation of Chinese astronauts baddested endure daily – have . yield a three-year alternationing beneathon alee accustomed out area missions.

    But Yang said that tactuality are possibilities because women . multibend next year’s mission.

    The two women astronauts,both pilots from the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) Air Force, are the 1st women astronauts amid . .

    Beahead the new aggregation of astronauts were adopted the 14 astronauts rbiscuitited in 1997 were consistently men including Yang plus Fei. So far six of them accept aureate . space among three alter missions.

    Yang and Fei,for able-bodied as Chen Sadhereuang, direc . r of the Astronaut Caccess of . ,Tibet tours, alien . ‘s manned area programs . 56 across announcers on Friday at the place . wn”in the arctic Beijing bends area astronauts are accomplished.

    Reanchorageers were likewise credible three spacecbulk simula . rs congenital becould cause astronaut taqueous, including that of Tiangong-1.

  290. anti soak June 20, 2012 at 12:02 am #

    Does that include Judaism?

  291. anti soak June 20, 2012 at 12:05 am #

    Can you tell us more?
    As to how much radiation would it take for her to ‘run for cover’?

  292. BeantownBill June 20, 2012 at 12:05 am #

    Scientists who study the brain think there’s a strong possibility than humans are hard-wired to believe in a supernatural being. In that sense, the existence of religion is inevitable. However, it has been shown over and over that reason can overcome superstition, so we may yet be able to someday eradicate religion.
    Science and technology are just tools we employ to understand and cope with the world around us. It’s how they are used that determines whether or not they are good or bad for us.

  293. anti soak June 20, 2012 at 12:07 am #

    If I changed:
    ‘Religion is the worst thing that has ever happened to the human race’
    to
    Judaism is the worst thing that has ever happened to the human race, Id be lying so I wont.

  294. Vlad Krandz June 20, 2012 at 12:07 am #

    So what about the Soviet Union? Can you at least admit (as Turk cannot) that things like Communism or Atheism can serve in the place of Religion for some people psychologically?
    The Soviet Union’s atheism was so militant that they killed countless priests and burned thousands of churches. Their Communism was so irrational at one point that it lead to crop failure. Lysenkoism – funny biology that demphasized genetics in favor of the environment. Sound familiar? Our Communists have trouble with genetics when it comes to people with dark skin.

  295. BeantownBill June 20, 2012 at 12:09 am #

    I said, “to a point”. 🙂

  296. anti soak June 20, 2012 at 12:09 am #

    Indeed, in 36? hours this thread has been ruined by spidey, who sets a record with a 600 [!!!] [?] line spam..sheesh..even worse than an
    ‘ass oka gram’.

  297. Bassoprofundo June 20, 2012 at 12:13 am #

    Do people actually read 750-1000-word ‘comments’?
    Good one Jim. Shared

  298. turkle June 20, 2012 at 12:16 am #

    Yeah, I read most of the ones that aren’t in Chinese.

  299. anti soak June 20, 2012 at 12:16 am #

    OEO was getting banned, perhaps several times a day, while spidey ruins this blog. ???!!!!!!!!

  300. BeantownBill June 20, 2012 at 12:19 am #

    I am an atheistic Jew, which means I don’t practice the religious aspect of Judaism. But what I do believe in is the tribalism of Judaism, that Jews are one people that have a commonality of history,customs and experience.
    If science is being used to make humanity regress, that doesn’t make science bad or undesirable in or of itself. It just means humankind has been using the tool unwisely.

  301. BeantownBill June 20, 2012 at 12:23 am #

    Why ruined? All you have to do is click your mouse on the down arrow of the scroll bar and move the mouse down the bar. It takes 2 seconds to scroll past the long posts. No big deal.

  302. turkle June 20, 2012 at 12:24 am #

    I think you’re supporting the point in a roundabout way.
    If Communism is a kind of secular religion, you therefore think that religion (of a certain type) is an overall negative.
    The sins of Communism w.r.t. religion aren’t even on the same order of magnitude as what religious people have done to others over the years.
    Let’s see, go back a few years and the punishment for disbelief in the Bible?
    Death by burning.
    You don’t believe Jesus was our Lord and Savior?
    Here’s a hot poker in your eye.
    What’s that you say? Allah is not the true god? BRB, gotta go sharpen the old sword.
    Cry me a river. The poor Jesuits. Heck, they probably deserved it. (An eye for an eye, ya know.)

  303. asoka.. June 20, 2012 at 12:31 am #

    Welles and I are in different countries that speak different languages.
    You probably want to go somewhere where there is a good Nazi population, like Paraguay, that protects criminals. Bush bought land there in 2006 after, in early 2005, Paraguay passed a law that allowed the country to harbor international criminals — alright, before someone pounces, the more diplomatic phrasing is that they granted immunity to U.S. military, (thus, including then Commander-in-Chief Bush) from the International Criminal Court if indicted for war crimes or crimes against humanity.

  304. BeantownBill June 20, 2012 at 12:34 am #

    You’d have to define the term “religion”. I’ve been using the word in the sense of “organized religion”. I think atheism is what’s left when one doesn’t believe in the existence of God. It doesn’t serve as a substitute for religion. Communism, as practiced in the USSR, IS a substitute for religion because it maintains that the State is the higher power.

  305. turkle June 20, 2012 at 12:36 am #

    Women flush out their (half) unborn children on a monthly. Are menstruation and miscarriages akin to 2nd degree murder? Guys have to get rid of millions and millions of theirs on a daily. That’s the world, dude. Fast, cheap, and out of control. Funny thing that you seem to care so much about unborn zygotes when you quite apparently despise huge sections of humanity as inferior and/or evil (da Blacks, da Joos, da Mexicans, etc.)
    Perhaps you should try having some compassion for those that are already here before you worry so much about the unborn.
    Or not. I guess it is easier to justify interference with the reproductive rights of women, being as how you hate them and all.

  306. anti soak June 20, 2012 at 12:37 am #

    NOW FOR A BUT OF HUMOR..
    HE THOUGHT HE WON THE GHETTO LOTTERY
    ONLY IN DETROIT:
    Ronald Page seemingly had it made when Bank of America unintentionally changed his account status, allowing the 55-year-old man to make unlimited ATM cash overdraft withdrawals.
    But ABC News reports that Page, who in reality had only $300 in his checking account, used the accidental loophole to withdraw more than $1.5 million—losing it all on gambling.
    And even worse for Page, the U.S. Attorney’s Office in Detroit says he is now facing 15 months in prison after pleading guilty to charges of theft of bank funds, $1,543,104 in total between December 1, 2008 and May 31, 2009.
    ……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………

  307. asoka.. June 20, 2012 at 1:02 am #

    anti soak said: “…theft of bank funds, $1,543,104 in total…”
    Only $1.5 million? They need to learn from white folks!
    NOW FOR A BIT OF WHITE FOLK HUMOR..
    THEY THOUGHT THEY WON THE GATED COMMUNITY LOTTERY
    ONLY IN WHITE PEOPLE LAND:
    A former Johnson City man now living in Bluff City was sentenced along with a Bristol woman on bank fraud convictions and each will spend 46 months in prison in a case that cost a local bank $4.2 million, according to the U.S. Attorney’s Office in Greeneville.
    Tommy Eugene Blair, 61, of Bluff City, and Tina Rogers, 44, of Bristol, were each sentenced to serve 46 months — three years, eight months — in prison for federal bank fraud, bank fraud conspiracy and perjury.
    Ain’t nobody can beat white folks when it comes to white collar crime! They steal TRILLIONS!

  308. 9o1a3c573re June 20, 2012 at 1:41 am #

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    ?????

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    ?????

    ??5/95(L)?299? ???? ????? ?? ????? ??????? ?? ??????? ????299 ??????? ?????? ????[11.15]??:???

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    ???:175/95 (L) zzzzppppyyyy ?????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ????[11.15]??:????:175/95 (L) 19881219pan ?????y???? ????????????????????????????????[??]????:????:XL ?****9 (??) ??????????????????????[??]????:????:XL(11?9???) ?????? ?????[??]????:????:M ?????4312 ?????????[??]????:????:M ywy7860991 ??????[??]????:????:M ???? ???[??]????:????:L nomennocry ??[??]????:????:M zmh?zmh ???~??????[??]????:????:L m88886044002 ??????[??]????:????:XL ???? ????[??]????:????:S ???2 ?????????????????[??]????:????:S 023ph ?????[??]????:????:M bxx7404 ??????????~~???~~~~?????~~~~???????????????~~~?????[??]????:????:M z

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    ??????? TheFaceShop???????

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  309. asoka.. June 20, 2012 at 1:41 am #

    OBAMA EXTENDS LEAD OVER ROMNEY
    The electoral vote count is what elects the president, not the popular vote.
    Obama’s has recently extended his lead from 244 to 260, and now to 269. Romney has stayed steady at 191.
    These numbers are based on local regression methodology, a statistical procedure that creates a smoothed line when data points are scattered, instead of using simple averaging.

  310. 9w8c8e287wf June 20, 2012 at 2:14 am #

    ??/90(M) asd996728334 ?……????????????????????????????……??……?????????????????[11.15]??:??i???:180/100(XL) gqn71714 ???????????????????? ????????????????????

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    ??26]??:????:175/95(L) junyiganb ??~[10.26]??:????:170/90(M)?299? lalaflyya ????????[10.25]??:????:170/90(M) hanqing114 ??????? ????????? [10.25]??:????:180/100 XL?299? ????

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  311. anti soak June 20, 2012 at 2:20 am #

    HawHaw, Hitchens croaked, so Dawkins can be Pope.

  312. anti soak June 20, 2012 at 2:22 am #

    Spidey, you have set a new record.
    4000? lines in 36 hours.
    You dont just live at Greystone, you could send us there.

  313. asoka.. June 20, 2012 at 2:54 am #

    OBAMA EXTENDS LEAD OVER ROMNEY
    The electoral vote count is what elects the president, not the popular vote.
    Obama’s has recently extended his electoral vote lead from 244 to 260, and now Obama’s lead has extended to 269. Romney has stayed steady at 191.
    If the Chinese spammer stops posting, Obama promises to buy lots and lots of buses and build trillions and trillions of skyscrapers.

  314. 3q9o7k045di June 20, 2012 at 3:03 am #

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  315. anti soak June 20, 2012 at 3:12 am #

    Scott , this is asokas disingenuous IDIOCY
    asoka. | June 17, 2012 5:04 PM | Reply
    Right, they want to hire immigrants at USA minimum wage because that is cheaper than Mexico or China? What you smokin’ Scott?
    more than 40 percent of Fortune 500 companies were founded by immigrants or their children.

  316. anti soak June 20, 2012 at 3:13 am #

    STEVE JOBS’S GENES
    http://WWW.ALTERNATIVERIGHT.COM
    THE ‘NEW AMERICAN’ FORTUNE 500
    EL PASO – THE ONGOING IMMIGRATION REFORM DEBATE – EITHER IN FAVOR OF OR AGAINST ANY DRASTIC LEGISLATIVE CHANGE, – USUALLY FOCUSES ON THE INFLUX OF UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS, WHILE IGNORING ITS EFFECT ON THE U.S. ECONOMY.
    THE WAY CURRENT IMMIGRATION LAWS ARE WRITTEN AND EXECUTED IS MAKING IT HARDER FOR COMPANIES TO COMPETE, ACCORDING TO A NEW REPORT PUBLISHED BY THE PARTNERSHIP FOR A NEW AMERICAN ECONOMY (PNAE), AN ORGANIZATION CREATED TO HIGHLIGHT THE CONTRIBUTIONS MADE BY FOREIGN ENTREPRENEURSHIP IN FORTUNE 500 COMPANIES, 40 PERCENT OF WHICH WERE FOUNDED BY IMMIGRANTS OR CHILDREN OF IMMIGRANTS.
    “WE ARE HAVING THE WRONG IMMIGRATION DEBATE,” SAID JEREMY ROBBINS, OF THE PNAE AND SPECIAL COUNSEL TO NEW YORK MAYOR MICHAEL BLOOMBERG.
    THE BENEFITS THE IMMIGRANT LABOR FORCE PROVIDE THE U.S. IS SUBSTANTIAL, SAID ROBERTO RODRÍGUEZ HERNÁNDEZ, MEXICAN CONSUL GENERAL IN EL PASO
    ……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..

  317. anti soak June 20, 2012 at 3:14 am #

    L PASO
    IN A STUDY BY THE (FAIR) FEDERATION OF AMERICAN IMMIGRATION REFORM, THEY HAVE ESTIMATED THAT SOMEWHERE BETWEEN 20 MILLION AND UPWARDS OF ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS HAVE UNLAWFUL ROOTS HERE, NOT THE NUMBERS OFFERED BY PREVIOUS OR TODAY’S ADMINISTRATIONS. THE INVESTMENT FIRM ANALYSTS FOR BEAR-STEARNS CLAIMED THAT THE US ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT POPULATION, ALSO AGREED WITH THIS NUMBER OF 20 MILLION PEOPLE.” THIS WAS PRIOR TO THE DEMISE OF THE COMPANY IN 2008.
    MUCH OF THESE ILLEGAL ENTRIES HAS ATTRIBUTED TO THE 49 PERCENT OF POVERTY IN THE UNITED STATES. SINCE 1963 THE U.S. HAS SPENT OVER $11 TRILLION ON ANTI-POVERTY PROGRAMS, GIVEN OUT MONEY, FOOD, SECTION 8 HOUSING, MEDICAL CARE, AND ASSISTANCE TO THE POOR AND NEAR UNDERPRIVILEGED. SINCE THE IMMIGRATION REFORMS OF THE 1960S, THE U.S. HAS IMPORTED UNSUSTAINABLE POVERTY THROUGH IMMIGRATION MEASURES THAT WERE PERMITTED AND ENCOURAGED ENTRY AND THE RESIDENCE OF MILLIONS OF LOW-SKILL IMMIGRANTS INTO THE NATION. LOW-SKILL MIGRANTS AND IMMIGRANTS ARE LIABLE TO BE POOR, HAVING BABIES WHO, IN TURN, ARE ADDING TO AMERICA’S PROPAGATING POVERTY PROBLEM, DRIVING UP GOVERNMENTAL BENEFITS, PUBLIC SERVICE, AND EDUCATION COSTS. WE ARE NOW TOPPING $113 BILLION DOLLARS ANNUALLY, AS ACCORDING TO THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION.
    UNDER THE LIBERALS, DEMOCRATS AND GOP ELITISTS NOTHING WILL EVER BE DONE, AGAINST THE INCREASING NUMBERS OF FOREIGN NATIONALS COMING HERE. THE SUBSIDIZING COSTS ARE REACHING ASTRONOMICAL UNPRECEDENTED DOLLARS, ESPECIALLY IF PRESIDENT OBAMA PASSES AMNESTY; IF THE VOTERS OFFER HIM A SECOND FOUR YEAR TERM A REFORM PACKAGE WOULD DEVASTATE ANY CHANCE OF CLIMBING OUT THIS DEEPENING RECESSION. A 2.6 TRILLION PRICE TAG AS ANALYZED BY THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION.
    GET IN TOUCH WITH MEMBERS OF THE WAYS & MEANS COMMITTEE TO PHONE OR FAX FOR FREE AT NUMBERSUSA. YOU CAN ALSO CONTACT ALL THESE LAWMAKERS THROUGH THEIR INTERNET WEBSITES. BUT YOU INSIST ON THE LEGAL WORKFORCE ACT TODAY AND START PUTTING AMERICANS BACK TO A JOB.
    …………………..
    ……………………………
    ……………………………

  318. anti soak June 20, 2012 at 3:14 am #

    …………………..
    ………………………
    ……………………………….

  319. anti soak June 20, 2012 at 3:15 am #

    RECENTLY, THE PARTNERSHIP FOR A NEW AMERICAN ECONOMY (WHICH FEATURES MAYORS MICHAEL BLOOMBERG AND ANTONIO VILLARAIGOSA, RUPERT MURDOCH, MICROSOFT CEO STEVEN BALLMER, AMONG OTHER EVIL-DOERS, AS CO-CHAIRS) ISSUED A REPORT [PDF] FINDING THAT “40 PERCENT OF THE 2010 FORTUNE 500 COMPANIES WERE FOUNDED BY IMMIGRANTS OR THEIR CHILDREN.” TWO LONG LISTS ARE INCLUDED: IMMIGRANTS AND CHILDREN OF IMMIGRANTS ENTREPRENEURS, THEIR COMPANIES, AND THEIR COUNTRIES OF ORIGIN.
    THE TACIT IMPLICATION—INDEED, THE TAKE-AWAY MESSAGE—IS SOMETHING LIKE THIS:
    a. AMERICA’S NATIVE WASPS ARE MEDIOCRE AND THEIR COUNTRY WOULDN’T HAVE AMOUNTED TO ANYTHING WITHOUT VIBRANT IMMIGRANTS;
    b. CURRENT IMMIGRANTS ARE JUST LIKE THE OLDER ENTREPRENEURIAL IMMIGRANTS, SO WE SHOULD JUST LET THEM IN, SIT BACK, AND WATCH THEM CREATE FORTUNE 500 COMPANIES.
    WITHOUT DWELLING ON THE MULTIPLE FALLACIES IMBEDDED IN THE PAPER’S THESIS, IT’S WORTH POINTING OUT THAT THE LISTS OF IMMIGRANTS AND THE CHILDREN OF IMMIGRANTS WHO FOUNDED FORTUNE 500 COMPANIES ARE, WITH PRECIOUS FEW EXCEPTIONS, LITANIES OF WHITE GUYS: NORDICS, ALPINES, SLAVS, AND ASHKENAZI (MOSTLY GERMAN) JEWS.
    THREE-FOURTHS OF THE WAY THROUGH THE IMMIGRANT LIST, WE REACH SOMEONE FROM ZAMBIA, AFRICA . . . BUT UNFORTUNATELY, HE’S DR. KIRAN PATEL, THE CAMBRIDGE-EDUCATED, ENGLISH-SPEAKER OF ARYAN-INDIAN AND ASIAN ETHNICITY WHO FOUNDED THE INSURANCE GIANT WELLCARE HEALTH PLANS. (ALAS, THE GREAT AFRICAN IMMIGRANT ENTREPRENEUR IS STILL AT LARGE.) TO NO ONE’S SURPRISE, AN EAST-ASIAN IMMIGRANT FROM TAIWAN FOUNDED YAHOO!
    “DIVERSITY” DOESN’T IMPROVE MUCH WHEN MOVING TO THE LIST OF FORTUNE 500 COMPANIES WITH CHILD-OF-IMMIGRANT FOUNDERS. HILARIOUSLY, THE WASP ELITIST HENRY FORD IS INCLUDED AMONG THE HUDDLED MASSES!

  320. anti soak June 20, 2012 at 3:16 am #

    THE LONE STAND-OUT ON THIS SECOND LIST IS STEVE JOBS, BY DINT OF HAS SYRIAN FATHER, ABDUL FATTAH “JOHN” JANDALI.
    MUCH AS “THE ‘NEW AMERICAN’ FORTUNE 500” REVEALS THE REMARKABLE PREDICTIVE POWER OF RACE, THE STORY OF JOBS’S FATHER, AND THE SYRIAN SIDE OF HIS FAMILY, BESPEAK THE IMPORTANCE OF HEREDITY.
    FROM WHAT WE KNOW, JOBS’S GRANDFATHER WAS NOT SIMPLY A REMARKABLE ARAB, BUT SOMETHING CLOSE TO A POSTMODERN MEDIEVAL LORD. ACCORDING JANDALI,
    a.
    WITHOUT DWELLING ON THE MULTIPLE FALLACIES IMBEDDED IN THE PAPER’S THESIS, IT’S WORTH POINTING OUT THAT THE LISTS OF IMMIGRANTS AND THE CHILDREN OF IMMIGRANTS WHO FOUNDED FORTUNE 500 COMPANIES ARE, WITH PRECIOUS FEW EXCEPTIONS, LITANIES OF WHITE GUYS: NORDICS, ALPINES, SLAVS, AND ASHKENAZI (MOSTLY GERMAN) JEWS.
    THREE-FOURTHS OF THE WAY THROUGH THE IMMIGRANT LIST, WE REACH SOMEONE FROM ZAMBIA, AFRICA . . . BUT UNFORTUNATELY, HE’S DR. KIRAN PATEL, THE CAMBRIDGE-EDUCATED, ENGLISH-SPEAKER OF ARYAN-INDIAN AND ASIAN ETHNICITY WHO FOUNDED THE INSURANCE GIANT WELLCARE HEALTH PLANS. (ALAS, THE GREAT AFRICAN IMMIGRANT ENTREPRENEUR IS STILL AT LARGE.) TO NO ONE’S SURPRISE, AN EAST-ASIAN IMMIGRANT FROM TAIWAN FOUNDED YAHOO!
    “DIVERSITY” DOESN’T IMPROVE MUCH WHEN MOVING TO THE LIST OF FORTUNE 500 COMPANIES WITH CHILD-OF-IMMIGRANT FOUNDERS. HILARIOUSLY, THE WASP ELITIST HENRY FORD IS INCLUDED AMONG THE HUDDLED MASSES!
    THE LONE STAND-OUT ON THIS SECOND LIST IS STEVE JOBS, BY DINT OF HAS SYRIAN FATHER, ABDUL FATTAH “JOHN” JANDALI.

    ………………….
    ////////////////////////////////////////

  321. anti soak June 20, 2012 at 3:17 am #

    ……………………………………………………………………………………………………
    MUCH AS “THE ‘NEW AMERICAN’ FORTUNE 500” REVEALS THE REMARKABLE PREDICTIVE POWER OF RACE, THE STORY OF JOBS’S FATHER, AND THE SYRIAN SIDE OF HIS FAMILY, BESPEAK THE IMPORTANCE OF HEREDITY.
    FROM WHAT WE KNOW, JOBS’S GRANDFATHER WAS NOT SIMPLY A REMARKABLE ARAB, BUT SOMETHING CLOSE TO A POSTMODERN MEDIEVAL LORD. ACCORDING JANDALI,
    MY FATHER WAS A SELF-MADE MILLIONAIRE WHO OWNED EXTENSIVE AREAS OF LAND WHICH INCLUDED ENTIRE VILLAGES . . . . HE HAD A STRONG PERSONALITY AND, IN CONTRAST TO OTHER PARENTS IN OUR COUNTRY, MY FATHER DID NOT REVEAL HIS FEELINGS TOWARDS US, BUT I KNEW THAT HE LOVED ME.
    “40 PERCENT OF THE 2010 FORTUNE 500 COMPANIES WERE FOUNDED BY IMMIGRANTS OR THEIR CHILDREN.”
    WHAT CAN I SAY, WE HAVE AN ELITE THAT HATE US. WE ALL KNOW THAT BY NOW. BUT WHAT’S INTERESTING IS THAT THEY ALMOST BECOME A CLICHE OF THEMSELVES: MONEY IS ALL THAT MATTERS. NO MENTION, FOR EXAMPLE OF THE LOWERING ETHICAL STANDARDS. HOW ABOUT WE DO A SIMILAR ‘STAT ‘ ON CHEATS, FRAUDS AND VIOLATIONS OF SEC RULES.. MY GUESS IS THE PERCENTAGE WOULD BE OVER 40.
    “PARTNERSHIP FOR A NEW AMERICAN ECONOMY”
    IS THAT LIKE THE PROJECT OF A NEW AMERICAN CENTURY? YEAH THAT’S WORKED OUT GREAT.
    JANDALI HIMSELF EMIGRATED TO AMERICA, EARNED A DOCTORATE AT THE UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN (WHERE HE MET SCHIEBLE), AND THEN BECAME PROFESSOR OF POLITICAL SCIENCE AT THE UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN. (THE FUTURE STEVE JOBS WAS BORN, AND PUT UP FOR ADOPTION, WHILE JANDALI WAS A GRADUATE STUDENT.) DISSATISFIED WITH ACADEMIA, JANDALI LATER BECAME A SUCCESSFUL BUSINESSMAN.,
    SO MUCH FOR IMMIGRATION AND RACE

    …………………………………………

  322. anti soak June 20, 2012 at 3:26 am #

    FIFY = ?

  323. Vlad Krandz June 20, 2012 at 3:47 am #

    And in order to have the State be a higher power, it has to invalidate God. No Atheism – no Communism. But I concede that not all Atheists are Communists by any means. But I can’t help but notice the new Atheism is very militant and obviously wants to persecute Christianity at the very least. You can’t miss that.

  324. anti soak June 20, 2012 at 3:52 am #

    Seeger, who with Ethel and Julius-es kids [ the Meeropols] are doing what they can to help Mumias kid, and other kids of ‘political prisoners’ thru
    the Meeropols ‘charity’.
    Too bad the Rosenbergs were exposed as spys by one of their own. And the technology they gave to Stalins flunkies help kill Americans.

  325. Vlad Krandz June 20, 2012 at 3:53 am #

    What about being Universal? What did your Professor Ignatiev say, “Treason to Whiteness is loyalty to humanity”. So could we not also say that Treason to Judaism is loyalty to humanity too? Makes sense – otherwise you’re a hypocrite for asking us to do what you wont.
    Don’t involve me – I never believed it or pretended to either.

  326. anti soak June 20, 2012 at 3:54 am #

    The most evil thing to him is Religion, yet the most important is the tribalism that Judaism generated.

  327. Vlad Krandz June 20, 2012 at 4:06 am #

    One is reminded of Jethro’s riddle: It’s not your mother, it’s not your father, it’s not your brother or your sister – who is it? It’s Miss Jane.
    Just so, letting in more aliens is a giant non sequitir. They only benefit the Republicans when they are illegal and can be exploited. So if we legalize this lot, we must bring in more to exploit. Legalizing everyone ruins the game. That’s why in the end, it’s in the Democrats favor. They are always gaining new voters as the illegals become legal. The Rebublicans cannot match the Democrats in pandering. So the Republican Paradise was strictly time limited and economic as opposed to political. If trends continue as they are, they will lose all power at the Federal Level very soon. By changing his tune on the illegals, Romney is throwing the election.

  328. Vlad Krandz June 20, 2012 at 4:11 am #

    There’s talk about Obama pardoning Pollard, the Jewish spy who caused so much death and destruction to American Intelligence. No doubt Bill is for it – as is Alan Dershowitz.
    What do you think of Spiritualism? Souls or Shells?

  329. 3o2z6y767jk June 20, 2012 at 4:52 am #

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  331. 6qcmujzni1q0 June 20, 2012 at 6:41 am #

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  332. 6qcmujzni1q0 June 20, 2012 at 6:44 am #

    ??????????? ??Topshop?Whistles?Reiss?Oasis?New Look?Marks&Spencer?Primark?Dorothy Pwrkins?Warehouse?Miss Selfridge?????????????????,????1.85?????Zara?H&M?Mango?Urban Outfitters?????????????????????????????????????
    ????????

  333. Widespreadpanic7 June 20, 2012 at 7:23 am #

    ” … they stole our mitts.” — JHK
    Pretty goddam funny line, Jim. I almost fell out of my chair.
    Just found out the Mormons are building an oversized Temple down on a piece of vacant land on the main drag thru town. The people who run this place were compelled to approve it — their theme was ‘religious diversity’. They all had smiles on their faces … nervous smiles like they had just swallowed something unpleasant but weren’t quite sure what they had swallowed.
    Well, I guess its better than the massive Mosque being built this minute up in Windsor. I wonder if there will be daily call to prayer … in that town founded by strict Calvinists from Scrooby, England 375 years ago? Time will tell.
    Well, 98d F today. Time to bust open the Sam Adams and grill up some chicken.
    –WSP7

  334. ozone June 20, 2012 at 8:45 am #

    Whoa, Dude!
    Tres strange. I wonder what the council members were promised (and is it written down somewhere)?
    Food and protection after collapse? Retention of their seats? Cuddling with LDS wifes and daughters? Etc.?
    Somewhere, on a bountiful and perfect planet, far, far away (where all the good believers go), Johnny Smiff is cackling maniacally.
    “Well, 98d F today. Time to bust open the Sam Adams and grill up some chicken.” -WSP
    Sounds like as good a plan as any. Fire that sucker up and break out the brews!
    I’ll be in the basement [mixin’ up the medicine].
    BTW, my credo is: “A cross for every infidel”. (In the old-school, Roman sense, of course.)

  335. ozone June 20, 2012 at 9:01 am #

    “Ozone, how come you never get banned?” -Prog[gy]
    I couldn’t tell you. Dunno, clean livin’; correct non-victim thinkin’; accepting of outcomes, slow and plodding planning; JHK just likes me, darn it?
    One could be excused for large dollops of skepticism concerning any of those. ;o)
    Really though, I’ve had one “banning” by 403 error m’self. Got around it by shutting down the modem for 15 minutes, but apparently, that doesn’t work for many.
    When I sign in to comment, I don’t click on “remember password”, or “never remember password” (thus leaving a larger cookie-print); I click the “not now” option. How hard is it to type it in?
    I’m kind of doubting that has a lot to do with it either. I’m also on Firefox, and it’s set to erase all history and cookies when signing out. Would that make any difference? Have to ask somebody tech-savvy.

  336. ozone June 20, 2012 at 9:07 am #

    Guess if there were a comment LENGTH boundary, that might help with the Spiderism, but he’d just slap up more postings to make up for it.
    Pathetic.

  337. ozone June 20, 2012 at 9:12 am #

    Too bad those Calvinists weren’t from Scroogy, England; that would be juuuuust right. ;o)
    (Goldilocksian)

  338. Widespreadpanic7 June 20, 2012 at 9:19 am #

    Hey Ozone I spent some time in N Utah awhile back and you’re 100% right about those LDS mothers and daughters. Sweet doesn’t quite describe it. I’d never seen anything like it. And having never been to Sweden, I’d never seen so many blonds.
    Maybe this Temple ain’t such a bad thing after all.
    –WSP7

  339. BeingThere June 20, 2012 at 9:59 am #

    Ron Paul collects social security
    Interview on Morning Joe reveals that Ron Paul who makes $174000.00 per year as a congressman, also collects social security.
    Funny, that. 
    The  subject came up when he was describing how he is trying to get young people off paying into the fund.
    On the one hand he claims that he will save ss by cutting the fat off it and ending foreign war escapades to save money for a country on the road to bankruptcy.
    Caught in his own hypocrisy, his protestations to his interviewers felt hollow and cranky.—Yep these nuts want everything for themselves and nothing for you–isn’t that special!
    PS. suggested reading is Craig Paul Roberts last two posts. Silent Spring for US? and Writing Off the Elderly.

  340. BeantownBill June 20, 2012 at 10:20 am #

    I don’t agree with militant atheism because when many of them open themselves up to public discourse, they come across as arrogant.I don’t like that.
    This type of atheism has been around for a long time. Remember Madelyn (sp?) Murray O’Hare?
    But militant atheism aside, I still think organized religion has historically been very bad for humanity.

  341. welles June 20, 2012 at 10:54 am #

    Ron Paul collects social security
    Interview on Morning Joe reveals that Ron Paul who makes $174000.00 per year as a congressman, also collects social security.
    Funny, that.

    Nothing wrong with that, long as he just gets back what he paid into it.
    He is 100% correct in that SS is a de facto ponzi scheme with no basis in actuarial or investment reality.
    peace peaceniks

  342. ghyfodgz June 20, 2012 at 11:25 am #

                                           

  343. 9o1a3c573re June 20, 2012 at 11:36 am #

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  344. 3o2z6y767jk June 20, 2012 at 11:50 am #

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  345. 9w8c8e287wf June 20, 2012 at 12:14 pm #

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  346. Vlad Krandz June 20, 2012 at 12:32 pm #

    Like other corrupt politicians before him, Obama has invoked executive privledge to avoid admitting involvement in the disastrous fast and furious program.
    They tried to frame the American People and take away our 2nd Ammendment Rights and it has backfired on them.

  347. Vlad Krandz June 20, 2012 at 12:38 pm #

    Yeah, Mormonism was supposed to be a Religion for White People and yeah, White People can be beautiful and create beautiful things when left alone.
    But don’t worry, Mormonism has opened the door the Third World and all those Blondes will be gone in 2 more generations of so. Many beautiful things require isolation to exist you see. There is no question about that. The only real question is why do it then.

  348. Rhino June 20, 2012 at 12:38 pm #

    The consequences would be heinous if we lock ourselves into the legal/conceptual straightjacket of believing that a bet (via some derivative) between two major banks like JPMorgan and Goldman Sachs that JPM “loses” MUST be paid off ie that it has legal validity.
    Or alternatively that if JPM doesn’t pay Goldman that Goldman has a cause of action against JPM.
    Or that a catastrophic loss via a derivative bet that creates a giant liability on the booKs of JPM in favor of Goldman, wiping out JPM’s capital actually really DOES create a giant liability that really DOES wipe out its capital.
    To all of the above I would say bosh. What we’ve done is to prop up this teetering popsicle stick contraption of interlocking bets by shoveling trillions at it.
    What I’m saying is to hell with this make believe world that only exists in electronic databases and the minds of lawyers, bankers, traders and accountants. There is no need for anyone to go along with this nightmare that is upending everyone’s life just so that Jamie Dimon and his ilk can earn kings’ ransom in compensation.
    As you say start with credit default swaps. From this day on we proclaim that under no circumstances can a bondholder buy insurance against default and under no circumstance can a company sell such insurance. It would require that a buyer of bonds live with the risk of default ie they have to do their fucking homework on a bond issuer.
    It would also avoid the ludicrous spectacle of the federal govt firehousing billions into AIG so it can pay Goldman off because a bond that Goldman DOESN’T own went into default.
    And we could go on. Like forbidding companies like Goldman from speculating in oil futures by making a law stating that nobody will make a futures contract in oil (or a currency or wheat or some other commodity) unless there is the intent to make or take delivery of the oil or wheat or currency or whatever.
    OK Kyooshtik, I know what you’re going to say, that by allowing such activities we make the market for such financial derivatives wide and deep and liquid such that companies that need such contracts in their day to day business can get them. No doubt you’re right. No doubt also that such traders ie speculators inflict distortions in such markets by making prices diverge a great deal from what they would have been had prices been based on supply and demand that are grounded in actual production and consumption.
    Anyway to make a long story short just rip the fucking mess out by the roots. We’ve already had heinous consequences and if we keep propping up this system we’ll get more.

  349. welles June 20, 2012 at 12:56 pm #

    I’m seeing building construction and public utility projects going gangbusters where I live in South America. There is a buzz of activity. People are happy. The economy is thriving. The nation has purpose and the future looks bright.
    This is just what I see here in Brazil too, an economy that’s hot and humming.
    And families are very, very strong support systems.
    We don’t have any of your Yanqui malaise, and the world just keeps getting better.
    I think JHK needs to move to Europe, where the inhabitants love being depressed & self-analyzing their misery.
    peace peaceniks
    PS yet another 40-pound pig slated for roasting this Saturday, we gots plenny ‘o good food ‘n drink fo’ yas, y’all c’mon down now, y’alls welcome any time now, hea’?

  350. anti soak June 20, 2012 at 1:02 pm #

    ‘What do you think of Spiritualism? Souls or Shells?’
    Communicating with the Astral World?
    Not into it, myself. I dont see Spirits. And as you know with ‘The New Age Movement’, theres lotsa hucksters. See ‘stop sylvia browne’ for a laugh.
    Shes made millions, best selling books, 100% bogus.
    John Edwards is similar. Kevin Ryerson is de-bunked in a great book called ‘Idiot Proof’.

  351. 3q9o7k045di June 20, 2012 at 1:03 pm #

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  352. Buck Stud June 20, 2012 at 1:24 pm #

    Yeah, Mormonism was supposed to be a Religion for White People and yeah, White People can be beautiful and create beautiful things when left alone.

    Some of the best painters around today hail from Utah and many of them are BYU,Utah and Utah State graduates. It’s very evident that traditional training has not been flushed down the toilet by these institutions because the painters render beautifully along with incorporating wonderful abstract underpinnings. Below are examples from two painters:
    http://www.howardmandville.com/Pages/Artist%20pages/fryer.html
    http://www.workmanstudio.com/recent_work

  353. Buck Stud June 20, 2012 at 1:42 pm #

    I’m surprised that alternative medicine doesn’t get more play around here considering that many feel societal collapse is imminent.
    For my money, seated meditation is one of the real things of value a person can give themselves. And if they become adept at learning how to scan the body with the mind and direct and concentrate the breath to any place within the body for the purpose of dissolving blockages, they can basically give themselves a acupuncture treatment of sorts.
    A few weeks ago I wrenched my back and I was stooped and in spasm. But when I simply sat and directed my mind and breath into the injury resulting in a gentle pulsating of energy within the injury my spasm and stoop vanished – for a few hours before returning. Eventually, the time without spasm lengthened and simply vanished. But there is no doubt that placing the intent of the mind and breath within an injury and harnessing the universal rhythm of life – expansion and contraction via the breath – that one develops the ability to dissolve coagulation/blockage as a result of injury or other afflictions.
    It sounds very esoteric – the Taoist Water Method of meditation- but it is actually very logical and methodical – once you learn how and are willing to put in the practice time.

  354. asoka.. June 20, 2012 at 2:05 pm #

    Isn’t there something in economics called the law of supply and demand? When something is scarce the price goes up, doesn’t it?
    NEW YORK — The price of oil dropped almost 3 percent Wednesday. Benchmark U.S. crude fell by $2.47 to $81.56 per barrel in New York.
    Doesn’t peak oil mean supply is lessening? Doesn’t peak oil mean we on the CCC downside? Shouldn’t oil prices be going up?

  355. asoka.. June 20, 2012 at 2:11 pm #

    It sounds very esoteric…
    Physiological changes related to meditation have been confirmed by studies published in the scientific literature. With the confirmation of science, more people might now be open to experimenting with meditation.
    Thanks for the post, Buck Stud.

  356. anti soak June 20, 2012 at 2:58 pm #

    Do you know Bruce Frantzis?
    I went to Chiropractors for years, none of them did much ‘questioning me’. But they adjusted me.
    It never fixed the problem. A PT in asking me questions saw my problem was a ‘too firm’ mattress and VIOLA, new matress , no back problems.
    That being said, Chinese are using Viagra. They are
    practical. Not so concerned with ‘purity’ or long term dangers from meds, I guess.
    I dont have much interest in Taoist ‘stuff’. Never worked for me.

  357. Vlad Krandz June 20, 2012 at 3:00 pm #

    Even if not consciously acknowledged, some things offer some people tremendous amounts of meaning – just like relgion does. For you, (and for many), a rocket ship defying gravity its jets in full burn. For hard core PC Weiros – pictures of White and Black babies playing together or worse – White Women cradleing their adopted Black Babies. Partcularly odious is Charlize Theron. She’s from South Africa and should know better.

  358. welles June 20, 2012 at 3:05 pm #

    sylvia browne
    That woman needs a good whuppin’. And have her tongue tied.
    For kicks see the video of her walking into an audience to ‘read’ their future. She started talking to a man about how he’d change jobs etc.
    The man grew visibly red-faced with shyness, and the woman beside him had to explain that he was German and didn’t speak any English!
    Guess her psychic ability didn’t recognize this impediment.
    Sylvia Brown got angry and started talking very loud to cover up her boner.
    Regarding Iceland, yes they are prosecuting bankers, I have read the legal texts. At the same time, they are raising taxes on the public to pay for the bankers’ bad loans, in order to save face vis-a-vis foreign institutions. Not sure about their economy recovering nicely, will check with my contacts there.
    peace peaceniks

  359. Vlad Krandz June 20, 2012 at 3:37 pm #

    Is this your way of admitting that I’m right and that beautiful Blonde Women should stay away from Black and Hispanic Men in order to perpetuate their precious genes? Welcome aboard, mate! After all, we need more women who look like they just stepped out of a pre-Raphelite painting, not less.

  360. turkle June 20, 2012 at 3:40 pm #

    [Scottie voice]
    She can’t take much more this Chinese spam, Jim!

  361. Vlad Krandz June 20, 2012 at 3:42 pm #

    The Taoist system has many safeguards in relation to the Kundalini – unlike the Tibetan and the Hindoo. A friend of mine went to a Tumo Workshop in L.A. One of the students had to withdraw – he couldn’t get warm. Evidently he had activated the lunar or cold current. This can be serious: the Leader of the Hari Bols used to wear a Parka all year long in Hawaii. An of course, Gopi Krishna nearly toasted himself with the solar.

  362. San Jose Mom 51 June 20, 2012 at 3:47 pm #

    As a recovering Mormon born in Salt Lake City, I can attest to your noticing lots of blondes in the area. I went to BYU for three years (before I married Mr. Mormon, husband #1,whom I put through medical school in Texas.) Truly, there are more attractive woman at that school than just about anywhere. No hideous tattoos, piercings, sloppy clothes and funky hair. Everyday was a good hair day for me in Utah because of the lack of humidity.
    I just came back from a trip to Utah’s national parks last week…Arches N.P, Canyonlands N.P., Dead Horse Point S.P., Capitol Reef N.P., Goblin Valley S.P., Kodachrome Basin S.P., Cedar Breaks N. Monument, and Zion N.P. Went on some fantastic hikes and took lots of pictures for artistic inspiration. It was wonderful to be in places with no grafitti and no trash. I think Germans and French have a great appreciation for Utah because half of the folks we saw in these uncrowded places spoke German. (Exception, Zion was a bit crowded.)
    Jen

  363. turkle June 20, 2012 at 3:51 pm #

    Oh, boo hoo. Cry me a river. The Christians don’t like it when people shoot down their idiotic opinions. But that’s not persecution. It doesn’t even rate. Try burning people at the stake or putting hot pokers in their eyes, you know, things that loving Christians actually did to people who dared mock or question their stupid holy book. That’s some real persecution.
    And the reason Dawkins felt obliged to jump into the ring and write a book about it was because half-baked Intelligent Designers and Bible Thumpers were constantly attacking him and the validity of his scientific ideas, as if these rubes had any idea how evolution works much less a valid soapbox from which to criticize it. Not being one to roll over and play dead atheist, he decided to fire back. Again, BFD. He’s hurt no one, except maybe a few religious nabobs whose feelings he hurt.
    On the other hand, try publicly questioning the truth of the Koran in a militantly Islamic country, for a taste of how Christians used to roll. Thank God (yeah ironic I know) that most of these people of the cross have jettisoned the vast majority of the weird and barbaric teachings of the Bible (you know, death for adultery and stuff like that), and we’re mostly left with “Jesus loves us,” which is insipid but at least mostly harmless.

  364. turkle June 20, 2012 at 3:52 pm #

    Why are you so concerned with who breeds with who you little pervert? Its none of your god damn business. (Yeah, I like to take his name in vain. Sorry.)

  365. asoka.. June 20, 2012 at 4:32 pm #

    (Yeah, I like to take his name in vain. Sorry.)
    Turkle, you needn’t apologize. Like everything else about Christianity that phrase makes little sense.
    You didn’t “take” the name. We all still have it. Look: god damn drone bombs. See, I have it as well.
    “In vain” … I never understood that either, I mean it wasn’t in vain, because you did make a point by invoking the goddamn name by saying god damn.
    Then there is the “his name” part. Don’t get me started on the sexist anthropomorphizing of god.

  366. Buck Stud June 20, 2012 at 5:04 pm #

    I think what I’m saying is that Mormons are a very competent and competitive group of people – in general. I mention the competitive aspect because a very high level basketball player once told me the Utah teams were always the toughest he played against, if not necessarily the most talented.
    And there is something very distinct among a lot of the Utah painters, a certain type of recognizable aesthetic if you will that requires a ton of hard work, talent, and diligence to accomplish.
    And as far as Republicans go – which isn’t very far in my estimation – the Utah flock seems to atleast have some sentiment towards nature and the environment.

  367. anti soak June 20, 2012 at 5:20 pm #

    Ya want a laugh?
    Go to
    Stop Sylvia Browne
    stopsylvia.com/
    StopSylviaBrowne.com – Examining and debunking the claims of purported psychic Sylvia Browne.
    And read his story of going to her Vegas talk.
    His grandpas name was ‘Odin’ [!!!] so he asks her
    ‘What was my grandpas name’ SB, ‘Harold’!!!!
    I have met Readers that can ‘get names, accurately, and much more’.

  368. anti soak June 20, 2012 at 5:28 pm #

    JHK in THE called SLC ‘the most car dependent in the USA’.

  369. Vlad Krandz June 20, 2012 at 6:00 pm #

    Why do people care about what kind of car they have? Or preserving heirloom seeds and the many different variety of apples? How much more we should care about our own genetic lineages. Your question is equal parts ignorance and mendacity. And your Atheism is a Cult, a murderous one – and you can’t dissprove it.

  370. Vlad Krandz June 20, 2012 at 6:37 pm #

    Good artile about this subject. No miscegenation used to be the law. As the old African Proverb puts it, “Don’t tear down a fence until you know why it was built”.
    http://amren.com/news/2012/06/race-purists-are-they-slightly-nuts/

  371. San Jose Mom 51 June 20, 2012 at 6:38 pm #

    The traffic on I-15 in the SLC metro area is horrible. Because of that, it actually makes sense to ride the light rail which runs mostly north to south along the Wasatch Range. The light rail is packed with riders avoiding the horror of the freeways.
    The urban aesthetics in Utah are below average–any capitalist’s heart would beat proud to see the Walmarts, Targets, and Costcos dotting the landscape.
    That being said, back in about 1979 the prophet of the Mormon Church, Spencer Kimball, stopped plans to build a huge network of portable nukes all over the state. The U.S. government was going to move the actual missiles between a 1000 silos on rail road tracks so that if the Soviets planned on a pre-emptive strike, trying to take out all the nukes in Utah would be like playing wack-a-mole. Spencer Kimball was also the guy who allowed blacks to get the preisthood.
    Referring to what someone said about the Mormon Church and race–there is an exception to their usual “lagging-edge of social justice” stance–the Native Americans. Brigham Young believed folks should feed the Indians–not fight them.
    (Nevertheless, the wacked a bunch of Arkansas folks heading through Utah on their way to California–the infamous “Mountain Meadows Massacre.”)
    When I was at BYU, it was very competitive to get accepted. Yet they let just about any semi-qualified Native American into the school with free tuition and dorm subsedies. I don’t know if this is still the norm.

  372. messianicdruid June 20, 2012 at 7:18 pm #

    “Don’t get me started on the sexist anthropomorphizing of god.”
    g – o – d is not a name. Its like saying, “Man, I hate punks.” If you were not talking to a “man” then you would be using the term “in vain” ie: vainly, as in – its useless to say “man” when no man is involved {you are not appealing to any man to witness or approve your statement. Just say, “I hate punks” without “dressing up” the statement. “Anything more than this, cometh of evil”.

  373. turkle June 20, 2012 at 7:33 pm #

    Slavery used to be legal, too, as did dueling. I’m supposing you don’t support either of those rather outmoded activities. If you do, well, I’m left rather speechless.
    I don’t see how it provides any justification for some act if they “used to do it that way.” It isn’t 1841 anymore. Times change and so do laws, usually for good reasons. Me so sorry. The ship has sailed. The fence is torn down. Yet again, you are living in the distant past, morally speaking.
    You worry about your own genetic lineage, big guy. You don’t have any right to tell anyone else who they can and can’t breed with, either morally or legally, and it isn’t any of your business, anyways. Get it, dingus? You don’t have a leg to stand on.
    “And your Atheism is a Cult, a murderous one”
    Blah blah blah. The more histrionic you get, the more I know I’m winning the argument. Let’s talk about a real murderous religious cult, like Islam, the world’s biggest death cult, or perhaps Christianity during the Inquisition. Or those mad dog Bible thumpers who kill abortion doctors. That’s the real deal. Disbelief in non-existent entities does not require one to drink any kind of mystic Koolaid. We leave that to you religious nutters.

  374. turkle June 20, 2012 at 7:38 pm #

    Also, Vlad, I’m not sure why anyone is supposed to take moral pronouncements seriously from someone who is a known sympathizer and apologist for Nazis, an avowed extreme racist, and a self-admitted misogynist. If you want to see some really terrible moral character flaws, all you need to do is look in the mirror. Why don’t you worry about the log in your eye before you worry about the speck in someone else’s? (I think that’s from the Bible, isn’t it?).

  375. Vlad Krandz June 20, 2012 at 7:59 pm #

    There’s more to life than art – and that’s using the word lightly. I don’t mind that Republicans don’t call heaps of twisted metal art. I hate them for important reasons like being hypocrites and race traitiors.

  376. anti soak June 20, 2012 at 8:01 pm #

    You heard about their sacred scripture [Once translated it Twas an EGYPTIAN BURIAL MANUAL, NOT ANGELIC TRANSFER TO BY]???
    And BY, in his former career, was [no joke]
    a Snake Oil Salesman at Carnivals and Circuses!!!
    [like ‘literally’]

  377. anti soak June 20, 2012 at 8:04 pm #

    His heroes are Gandhi, Schweitzer, Lincoln.
    All ‘extreme’ racists.
    Kids dont get taught that anymore[or maybe such verities were never taught].

  378. Vlad Krandz June 20, 2012 at 8:09 pm #

    Whites are persecuted by the Goverment and attacked openly by Blacks and you don’t care a bit. Yet you consider yourself the epitome of morality. You are a dirty little savage who should be exiled to inner Detroit. All y’all should be sent to places like that – Liberal Leper Colonies. You get to leave when you verbally renounce and abjure your previous beliefs in front of a jury of Whites and Blacks.
    The Blacks on such future juries will be paid but for Whites it will be considered a both a privledge and a duty to serve. The rehabilitation of Whites will be essential to the State.

  379. Vlad Krandz June 20, 2012 at 8:11 pm #

    Communism killed over a hundred million in the 20th Century. Don’t you know anything?

  380. turkle June 20, 2012 at 8:12 pm #

    Oh, yeah, add a raging persecution complex to the mix, too. What a zesty brew you got going there.

  381. San Jose Mom 51 June 20, 2012 at 8:21 pm #

    Sorry Soak,
    Brigham Young did not do the “translating” of supposed ancient texts–that was Joseph Smith.
    So Joseph Smith was more full of baloney than Brigham Young. My personal opinion is that Joseph Smith was probably bi-polar and if was alive today, he would be highly medicated.
    The “good news” about Brigham Young is that he was a good organizer and leader. He was also pragmatic (and horny–so many wives!).

  382. messianicdruid June 20, 2012 at 8:30 pm #

    “The Christians don’t like it when people shoot down their idiotic opinions.”
    It would be nice if you would take a few seconds to see if your shot hit the target before pulling the trigger again and again, or just walking off, as you usually do when someone says, “Hey Turk, you missed!”. You just think you are hitting the target.
    Let me hold up a target, and see if you can hit it.

  383. turkle June 20, 2012 at 8:40 pm #

    What does that have to do with anything, bird brain? Can you go one week without playing the “Commie card”?
    Communism is distinct from atheism. The latter is not at all dependent on the former, though perhaps the reverse is not true, so I’ll conceded that small point, that Communists do tend to disavow traditional religious belief. Some Communists were/are atheists, but not all, or even most, atheists are Communists, and certainly not in America. Comprende? Communism is more like a secular religion than an extension of atheist philosophy, if such a thing can even be said to exist. Communists have just substituted their particular kind of religion for the traditional ones, complete with a future promised land. Most well-known, Western atheists (Dawkins, Hitchens, etc.) consider themselves secular Humanists, a philosophy which is in no way supportive of political Marxism. If the two were so closely related, wouldn’t you think these people would display their Commie credentials openly and proudly? But, they’re not, so they don’t.
    Furthermore, Communism is not alone in causing murderous political havoc in the 20th century. You also need to add fascism to that list, in Japan, Italy, and Germany, which was directly opposed to Communism, and now there’s political Islam, causing all kinds of problems throughout the world.
    Another thing you need to realize is that religious political philosophies and the “divine kings” held sway when there were far fewer people on the planet. So, in terms of percentages of the population affected, they caused more havoc. Simply investigate any of the European religious wars of the 15 or 1600’s to convince yourself of this, like the Thirty Years War, which it is said killed 1/3 of the population of Germany, or look at what happened during the Crusades.
    So, ultimately, I’m not sure what point you’re trying to prove. I consider both Communist and religious political philosophies as undesirable and overall harmful.
    Now for soaky…
    “Gandhi, Schweitzer, Lincoln”
    I have no idea who the middle person even is.
    For his time, Lincoln was not at all an “extreme” racist. He ended up as an abolitionist, so there’s no way you can make that argument. It is also likely that even though he initially did not identify as such, this was likely more of a concession (kind of a lie in other words) to try and keep the Union together without a major war.
    Gandhi…I really don’t know. Care to elaborate or provide some quotes? Again, your little word droppings leave a lot to be desired. Perhaps you can write more than a few cryptic sentences so I actually have something more substantial to debate. As it is, you’re completely unconvincing.

  384. turkle June 20, 2012 at 8:44 pm #

    The problem is that you are so embedded in the religious mindset that you can’t even recognize when someone makes a convincing argument that does “hit the target.” It goes in one ear and out the other. What exactly would convince you that my position is right? Think about it. I’d say pretty much nothing will convince you, from what I can gather, because your mind is made up. And you can’t follow a reasonable line of argument. So, your point is completely moot.
    Also, people like you are pretty good at moving the target. That’s what religious people do when their arguments fall apart, which they always do.
    “Oh, God isn’t there? Well, what about over here?!”

  385. turkle June 20, 2012 at 8:56 pm #

    And the other problem arguing with you is that you’re not even defending traditional Christian doctrine, which is my primary point of discussion and disagreement. You have your own nutty, unorthodox interpretation of everything (a cult of one), as far as I can tell, so I can’t even see the target. Everything is some big cryptic mystery that you fail to explain or explicate fully that I’m somehow supposed to magically understand what you really think via intellectual osmosis, I guess, which, again, kind of makes it difficult to even have a coherent discussion on this topic.
    Why don’t you tell me exactly what you do believe? What’s your opinion about supernatural all-powerful gods in the sky and existence or non-existence thereof? What do you think about the afterlife? Does it exist or do we just become worm food? What is your opinion/views on traditional Christianity, Judaism, and Islam and their holy books? etc. Lay it on me, messy.
    Once I find out exactly where the target is located, then I can at least take proper aim, even if you never will admit that I hit it.

  386. turkle June 20, 2012 at 9:04 pm #

    Oh, and BTW, I don’t feel the need to check in with you every time I make a post on this topic. Because you’re a partisan in the other direction, an arrogant religious wing nut who thinks he’s got some kind of secret key to the inner workings of the universe. But, in reality, you’re just as clueless as the rest of the cultists. Thus, you’re completely unable to make an objective assessment as to whether or not I made an effective argument, so I won’t bother to ask you whether I did or not.
    How’s that for hitting the target?

  387. Vlad Krandz June 20, 2012 at 9:13 pm #

    Yes, all 3 good men too! Racists build nations and commie race mixers try to tear them down.

  388. Vlad Krandz June 20, 2012 at 9:19 pm #

    Lincoln wanted the Blacks sent back to Africa and knew well they were inferior to Whites. Schweitzer is a famous humanitarian who worked for decades in a hospitl in the Congo as a Doctor. He has been written out of history because of his views. He didn’t worship Black like all “good” Whites now must.
    Yes there are individual Atheists who are not Communists. But as Movements they are fellow travelers and may well be again.

  389. charliefoxtrot June 20, 2012 at 9:21 pm #

    hey, Z0N3…it occurs to me to ask a sheepish question…do yoiu have any “proxies”, or ‘sock puppetry’, if you will…? feel free to ignore or answer the query; it does occur to me that that might complimicate things inneratchair…so to speak…

  390. Vlad Krandz June 20, 2012 at 9:44 pm #

    The Prophets warn us to flee from Babylon before the destruction. Is this America or Israel? Or is there any difference anymore? Jeremiah says it will be destroyed in a day – a couple of high altitude nuclear strikes would disable America and utlimately cause more death than if dozens of cities were hit at ground level.
    Considering the number of abortions performed here and how we have exported this way of death around the world, we would seem to fit the bill.

  391. turkle June 20, 2012 at 10:32 pm #

    Seriously, dude? *face palm*
    It boggles the mind how someone so evidently articulate and (dare I admit it) intelligent in his own kind of way can be drawn in by such a pile of religious horse shit. Does it smell like roses to you?

  392. turkle June 20, 2012 at 10:34 pm #

    The idea that there is a divine being up there punishing us for our collective sins has got to be one of the most revolting ever put forward by any religion, and it is a pretty strong field.

  393. messianicdruid June 20, 2012 at 11:05 pm #

    “Thus, you’re completely unable to make an objective assessment as to whether or not I made an effective argument, so I won’t bother to ask you whether I did or not.”
    Yes, you will just ASSUME my assessment is subjective while presuming that yours is objective, simply because you have convinced yourself you are intelligent, logical, reasonable and know WTF you are talking about {then denounce me for not believing the things you are arguing against}. Way to go, nimrod.

  394. messianicdruid June 20, 2012 at 11:15 pm #

    Mystery {hidden = why some don’t see it} Babylon is a system of deception allowed to hold sway over those in rebellion to teach all the folly of an unlimited number of g – o – d – s {rulemakers} in opposition to one another {chaos}. The way of peace they have not known. Denominationalism is simply the “christian” version[s] of this delusion.

  395. asoka.. June 20, 2012 at 11:21 pm #

    Racists build nations and commie race mixers try to tear them down.
    ==============
    We “commies” be winnin’, too!
    You fightin’ against history and against love.
    You gonna lose both those fights, Vlad, because you can’t stop people of different skin shades from falling in love.

  396. ozone June 21, 2012 at 12:00 am #

    Charlie,
    In a word: Nope.
    I just drop by when convenient (ain’t that mod’ren of me?) throw out a couple links that might be halfway germane; crack a couple half-assed japes, then just check back in (when convenient) and check the tomfoolery.
    That’s pretty much the limit of my involvement.
    Hope that clears that up, and thanks fer askin’.
    :o)

  397. xport June 21, 2012 at 12:00 am #

    Has anyone bothered to figured out what all the Chinese spam on this blog is all about?
    They are telling us that we are all full of shit, and they will kick our ass any time, and any where they want to do it.

  398. asoka.. June 21, 2012 at 12:03 am #

    Undenominational Christianity is just as sick as both still believe in this nonsense:
    1) an invisible sky god exists,
    2) This invisible being had a “son”
    3) God’s “son” (i.e., busybody) was both human and divine,
    4) this human/divine hybrid loudmouth died for our sins (WTF!),
    5) unless you believe all the crap in the preceding points, you cannot be saved from … [wait for it] … death.

  399. xport June 21, 2012 at 12:14 am #

    IT is beyond time to believe in a higher power.
    The life force that includes all of reality at the moment is the driving force. Father and Mother are all important, as is every offspring. Get on with it, that is why you are here.

  400. xport June 21, 2012 at 12:33 am #

    I went to the public library today, and looked around for something that had some meaning for today.
    I saw the book by Obama, a best seller, in fact it was a book that I bought and read, and believed that here was a man that had a new vision and could be a true leader into the next century. It was called “the audacity of hope”, and when I read this book, I thought that we had a true man that would run for public office.
    Well, he did get himself elected, and now you see what we have. Audacious puppet for the oligarchy.
    So what is the next best lie that we should embrace?
    In the next election I will raise my middle finger in salute of the lairs that run the world.