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Vacation Special — Excerpt from “The Witch of Hebron”

    The Witch of Hebron is the sequel to World Made By Hand, a story of the post-oil American future. It is set in and around the town of Union Grove, Washington County, New York. The time is several months after the action in the first book, the week before Halloween.
      This excerpt concerns Stephen Bullock, the wealthy landowner whose plantation is home to dozens of people whose lives and livelihoods had gone adrift in the collapse of the American economy.
Mr. Bullock Meets the Enemy
     The last thing Stephen Bullock did before bedtime, in his capacity as town magistrate, was to sign a warrant directing Doctor Jeremy Copeland to exhume and examine the body of Shawn Watling and report his findings, costs of which, labor included, were to be billed to the town of Union Grove, repayable in up to four dollars silver coin. He gave the folded and sealed document to his chore-man, Roger Lippy, for delivery in person the following morning. Then Stephen Bullock retired to the bedroom upstairs in the large manor house that was the beating heart of his four thousand acre holdings.
     The spacious, cheerful bedroom, was wallpapered in a motif that featured pink cabbage roses, with a likewise flowery chintz upholstered wing-chair in one corner. His wife Sophie’s dressing table stood between two large light-gathering windows, with curtains that matched the wall-paper. Two nineteenth century landscapes of the upper Hudson Valley by the painter Hastings Lembert (1824 – 93), an ancestor, hung on the wall above a fine early Meiji (1871) tansu chest of drawers in kiriwood and chestnut. Bullock had picked it up forty years ago during his post-college sojourn in Kyoto teaching English.
     Sophie sat in bed reading by the light of her bedside electric lamp. Bullock’s farm was the only establishment in the vicinity of Union Grove that still enjoyed electricity. It was thanks to a small hydroelectric generator where the Battenkill made one final ten foot leap before it flowed into the Hudson River. It put out fifty kilowatts of power, enough to light the main house, the barns, the workshops, and the cottages his “employees” had constructed for themselves on his property. Finding replacement light bulbs was a problem now that trade had fallen off so sharply. He’d laid in as many as possible during the hoarding times that followed the bombings in Washington and Los Angeles and the fall of the government, but his supply had run down so severely that he’d had to stop giving new ones to his cottagers – they were going back to candles – and light bulbs were not the kind of thing he was equipped to manufacture on the farm, though his workshops did turn out many useful items from glassware to harnesses.
     “You look very handsome tonight,” Bullock remarked to his wife as he pulled off his blousy linen shirt and unbuttoned his riding trousers. She looked up over her reading glasses with a sly smile. She wore a silk nightgown that merely pretended to contain her abundant bosom. Bullock was observant enough to know that she tended to wear that particular article of clothing when she wanted his attention.
     “Are you proposing to entertain me?” she said.
     “I’d be honored.”
     She put down her book, Them, by Joyce Carol Oates, a novel of mid-twentieth century family depravity, and threw back the covers on her husband’s side of the bed, patting the mattress to welcome him. He slipped between the cool, clean sheets until he was pressed warmly against the wife he adored. Soon he was kissing the little hollow below her ear where the wisps of silvery hair met her perfumed neck, as familiar a place to him as the wooded glens of his dreams, where he was forever young and on the hunt. She reached and turned out the light. His left hand ranged over the deeply contoured geography of her torso – as perpetually beautiful and interesting to him as the terrain of his own great farm – and she opened herself to him. Their ceremony was well practiced but no less pleasurable for its countless repetitions over the years. If anything, their comfort with each other only added to the pleasure they took together, along with their mutual wonder that they remained avid well into their age. When their ceremony was complete, they lay panting, giggling, and whispering to each other in delight.
     “Sleepy, now?” he asked.
     “You know how I am,” she said. Indeed, the transports of love acted on Sophie Bullock as the most potent soporific. It was a joke between them. Bullock himself always claimed to be re-energized by love-making, as if he had taken a shot of espresso.
     “Would you like me to read a bit to you?” he asked.
     “Sure,” she said. “What have you got, darling?”
     “The Legend of Sleepy Hollow, by Washington Irving.”
     She let out a delighted little yelp.
     “Halloween’s almost here,” he said.
     “You love holidays, don’t you?”
     “They’re more important now than in the old days, when there were more distractions.”
     “Well, you go right ahead, but don’t mind me if I slip off to dreamland.”
     Bullock kissed her damp forehead, reached for the lamp on his night table, and put on his reading glasses.
     “In the bosom of one of those spacious coves which indent the eastern shore of the Hudson,” he began reading aloud, “at that broad expansion of the river denominated by the ancient Dutch navigators the Tappan Zee, and where they always prudently shortened sail and implored the protection of St. Nicholas when they crossed, there lies a small market town or rural port, which by some is called Greensburgh, but which is more generally and properly known by the name of Tarry Town-“
     Bullock stopped reading at the apprehension of strange noises emanating from somewhere in the house, something banging, a dull thud, a squeak. The old house was alive in its own way, always heaving and groaning with the weather and the seasons. And there were the two servants who lived in the house, Lilah the cook and Jenny the housekeeper, who sometimes moved about downstairs late at night, getting something from the kitchen or the library.
     But then Bullock heard a commotion on the stairs. He flung his book aside just as three figures crashed through the bedroom door and stopped in their tracks, apparently dazzled by the electric light. Bullock knew at once what they were. The three figures – bearded, bundled in close-fitting clothing, like soldiers, with trousers tucked into the boot-tops, yet not in any discernable uniform – gaped in awe at what they had discovered, and not just the finery of the room. Sophie Bullock, shocked into waking, had been prepared for a moment like this by her husband, and by her own intelligence. She sat up in bed beside her husband and drew the bedclothes above her bosom. The Bullocks and the intruders stared squarely at one another in steely resolve during that interminable instant before one of them spoke.
    “I’ve been expecting something like you for a long time,” Bullock said.
     “That’s nice,” said the tallest one, who wore a leather helmet leaking coyote fur, with an eagle crudely embroidered on a patch at the forehead. “It’ll save us all a lot of bother. Just take us to where the gold is.”
     “What makes you think there is any?”
     “Oh, come on. How could there not be in a place like this?”
    While Bullock sized up the trio, he heard a scream from below, and assumed it came from Jenny or Lilah.
     “If you harm any of my people, you’ll pay,” he said.
     “You’re not calling the shots here just now,” said the apparent leader, who brandished a very large revolver. He used its long barrel as a pointer, gesturing to reinforce his instructions. “Get out of the rack, Mr. Big.”
     Bullock threw back the sheets and sprang to the floor with an athleticism that surprised the intruders as much as his state of complete nakedness. 
     “Check out the missus,” said another of the intruders, shorter and younger than the first. He wielded a sawed-off pump shotgun and sported a head-rag that had once been a small American flag. A spray of blonde hair leaked out from under it. “Nice looking for an older gal.”
     Sophie Bullock didn’t flinch.
     The muffled screams continued from below.
     The third member of the trio, black-haired and broadly-built, with a tight-cropped beard and no visible weapon, approached the bed and seized the end of the blankets. Sophie resisted, but the burly man succeeded in yanking them off. She threw her arms across her bosom against the inadequacy of her nightgown.
     “You come with me,” the leader told Bullock.
     “I’m not leaving my wife alone with your gorillas.”
     As though to emphasize the obvious, the shorter one unzipped his fly.
     “These here boys are gentlemen,” the leader said. “They just need some mothering.”
     The screams from downstairs had become sobs.
     “Can I put my pants on?” Bullock said.
     “Go ahead.”
     The dark-bearded hulk fingered Sophie Bullock’s silk nightgown. She issued a strangled cry of distress, while trying desperately to maintain her composure. The nightgown came away with a ripping sound. Sophie drew up her thigh in a posture of protection. Bullock calmly went to the wing chair in the corner where he had deposited his riding breeches. He pulled them on and fastened the buttons, keeping his eyes on the tall one in the leather helmet with the eagle on it. Then he reached casually beside the curtained window and pulled a braided cord, which set off a blaring electric klaxon on the roof.
     “What the hell?” the dark-haired hulk said. The three intruders all shared a troubled glance. In that distracted instant, Bullock reached into a bronze umbrella stand beside the wing chair and withdrew from a sharkskin scabbard the twenty-six inch long katana, or samurai sword, that had been another of his acquisitions during his Japanese sojourn. The rigorous training he had undergone in those years returned to him unfailingly. He wheeled around and swung the weapon at the one who had been issuing instructions. The motion was so fluid and exact that for a moment, a mere red line appeared between the man’s beard and his shoulders. But then his legs wobbled and his body collapsed in a heap on the rug, while bright arterial blood gushed out of the stump of his neck and his detached head, still in its leather helmet, bounced on the floor and rolled up against the chest of drawers. The young, flag-headed accomplice barely had time to goggle at the spectacle before Bullock delivered a thrust of the sword cleanly through the young man’s sternum, sectioning the heart from top to bottom and separating its owner from his life so efficiently that his brain was able to behold his own death for several seconds before he too crashed to the floor. The third one had the presence of mind to lunge for his companion’s sawed-off shotgun, but he also presented the back of his neck so perfectly to Bullock that a minimum of effort was required to remove his head. The eyes could be seen rolling in the head as it became lodged between the legs of the dressing table.
     When all three lay dead on the floor, except for the residual twitching of their shocked nervous systems, Bullock wrested the revolver from the dead leader’s hand, grabbed the sawed-off shotgun off the floor, and hurried out of the room. Sophie remained naked on the bed above the fallen, bleeding intruders, her screams subsumed in the noise of the klaxon, which had succeeded in summoning the men from Bullock’s village up the hill. They now swarmed around the house, barns, and workshops of Bullock’s manor in the rain, rounding up nine other intruders at gunpoint in the electric floodlights which were part of the alarm system that tripped when Bullock had pulled the chord.
     Bullock, shirtless and bloody in the stark glare of the floodlights, ordered the captured invaders to be locked in the enormous cold-storage locker that his grandfather had installed in one of the barns in 1965 for preserving his apple crop. Others attended to Jenny Ferris, the housekeeper, on the first floor of the big house, where she lay battered and misused, while Sophie Bullock, now dressed in her gardening denims, supervised the removal of the bodies from her bedroom and the mopping up of the blood that had spilled from their worthless hearts.
* * *
     Around sunrise the day after his home was invaded, Stephen Bullock decided to hang the rest of the intruders. He drew up a warrant of execution for the nine men at his breakfast and determined, before hanging them, to interrogate whoever was next in command after the three he had killed in his bedroom.
     A little after seven in the morning, he entered the old apple storage cooler where the men were held. He went in alone. Five of his own men, well armed, remained outside the cooler. The captives inside recoiled at the light of the candle-lantern when Bullock entered. They all shivered visibly in one corner of the large chamber, where they huddled together in hobbles with their hands tied behind their backs. The room stank of animal wastes and fear.
     “Three of your men are dead,” Bullock told them. “I suppose you’ve figured out who they are by now. Who among you has the authority to speak for the rest of this gang?”
     The men swapped glances at each other. 
    “Don’t be shy,” Bullock added.
    “We don’t have no official ranks, if that’s what you mean,” said one, a large man with a shaved head, perhaps thirty years old.
    “It seems you speak for the rest.”
    “Just for now” the shaved-head man said.
    “Okay, I nominate you spokesman. And second it. All in favor? Aye. See, you’re elected. Get up and come with me.”
     “Where are we going?”
     “You’re going to have breakfast with me and we’re going to talk.”
    The man got up off his haunches and glanced back at his companions. He was rangy, gaunt, and hollow-eyed but obviously very strong. The tendons in his neck stood out like wires.
     “Come,” Bullock said.
     The man shuffled in his hobbles, which only allowed him to take tiny steps. Bullock and his five men, armed with rifles and pistols, walked him to the manse. The clear morning was already blooming into a spectacularly warm Indian summer day with many stimulating aromas in the air: fresh cut hay, burning brush, sorghum boiling down to syrup at Bullock’s new cane mill on the river, cornbread baking. Bullock led his prisoner into a sunny conservatory wing of the house and directed the man to have a seat at a glass-topped table. The cords that bound his hands behind his back were removed, th
ough the hobbles on his ankles remained.
     Bullock’s chore-man, Roger Lippy, a Chrysler dealer in the old times, laid a stiff white cloth on the table and set it with silver tableware and damask napkins rolled into silver rings. Bullock held up a sterling silver fork and examined it in a shaft of sunlight.
     “Too bad you didn’t get to rob the place,” Bullock said. “We have a lot of nice things here.”
      The prisoner didn’t reply.
     Roger Lippy stood by the table with a tray at his side.
     “What would you like for breakfast?” Bullock asked the prisoner.
     “You’re gonna give me breakfast?”
     “Aren’t you hungry?”
     “Not especially.”
     “Okay, I’ll order for you. Roger, tell Lilah to make this fellow a four egg omelet with some of that Duanesburg chedder, bacon and sausage, hash-browns and cornbread with the blackberry preserves.”
     “Yessir. Yourself?”
     “I’ll just have tea,” Bullock said. “Tea for you?” he asked the prisoner, who just grunted. “It’s real black China tea,” Bullock added. “None of that fruity herbal crap. It’ll give you a real lift. Go on, give yourself a break.”
     “Okay,” the prisoner said. Roger Lippy left them. Bullock’s other men took up positions sitting or standing outside the conservatory, on display but out of earshot. Sparrows flitted in and out of the room through the ventilation louvers.
     “What’s your name?” Bullock asked.
     “What’s it matter?”
     “It should matter to you. It’s your name. You can’t defend your honor without defending your name, can you?”
     “It’s Jason Hammerschield.”
     “You couldn’t have made that up.”
     “It’s my name.”
     “Where’s this gang of yours from?”
     “It’s not my gang.”
     “I don’t mean you own it. But obviously you’re a member.”
     Roger Lippy brought out a tray with a teapot and two matching cups and saucers. Bullock poured for both of them.
     “The cream’s from our own dairy and the sugar’s made from our own beets, though we’re working up a sorghum operation now,” Bullock said.  “So, Jason, where do you and your associates hail from?”
     “Waterbury, Connecticut. We been on the road a while.”
     “How are things back there in the Nutmeg State?”
     “The what?”
     “They sucked. Which is how come we took to the road.”
     “Have you had many adventures?”
     “It’s a hard life.”
     “You must not be very good at what you do.”
     “We’re all right. But it’s slim pickings out there.”
     “Then it’s extra sad that you messed up here. We’re living large. We’ve got full bellies, electric power, amber waves of grain, groaning orchards, a nice big house, first-rate furnishings.”
     “I can see.”
     “Oh, you only see a teensy-weensy bit of what we’ve got going. Want me to put on some recorded music? I’ve got it all – classical, Broadway musicals, old Bob Dylan-“
     Roger Lippy reappeared with Jason Hammerschield’s breakfast, plus a basket of cornbread, a ramekin of butter, and a dish of blackberry jam. The prisoner stared at the steaming plate that was set before him.
     “Put on some Debussy, would you Roger? The first preludes.”
     “Sure thing, sir.”
     “Go ahead, dig in,” Bullock said to his prisoner, who continued to stare darkly at his plate.
     “How do I know it’s not poison?”
     Bullock laughed sincerely. “You moron, if I wanted to kill you, I’d have one of my men shoot you in the head. Go ahead, eat.”
     Jason Hammerschield looked up at Bullock squinting with dull incomprehension.
     “I’ll be very cross with you if you just let it sit there,” Bullock added.
     The prisoner took a tentative forkful of his omelet, then ate more rapidly until he was fairly inhaling the contents of the plate in a fugue of deprivation. He reached into the basket for some cornbread, slathered it with butter, and spooned jam on top. 
     “What I want to know,” Bullock continued, “is whether you are part of some larger horde.”
     “Some what?” Jason Hammerschield said, spraying cornbread crumbs as he spoke.
     “You know, a larger unit of people like yourselves, an army of marauders, scavenging across the land like locusts.”
     Jason Hammerschield chewed ruminatively.
     “No,” he said eventually. “We’re just who we are. A bunch of guys.”
     “What do you call your bunch?”
     “Really? I’d think you’d sit around the campfire at night memorializing your exploits.”
     “What our what?”
     “Making up stories about yourselves. For your own amusement. Creating a myth for posterity.”
     “We just fall out and sleep. It’s hard living like we do.”
      “All I can say is you boys are seriously lacking in imagination.”
     Jason Hammerschield mopped up the last remaining specks of egg, hash browns, and crumbs of bacon with a triangle of cornbread.
     “Allow me to suggest a name,” Bullock said. “The Nutmeg Boys. Or maybe just The Nutmeggers.”
     Jason Hammerschield made a face and snorted. “What happens now?” he said, tossing his napkin on his plate.
     “Just some legal rigmarole,” Bullock said. “Do you boys have a lawyer?”
     “Want me to represent you? I’m a member of the bar.”
     “That don’t sound right.”
     “These are rugged times, admittedly, for the machinery of justice. By a stroke of luck, though, there’s a magistrate on the premises.”
     “Who would that be?”
     “Yours truly,” Bullock said.
     “I see,” Jason Hammerschield said. “You the jury, too?”
     “Pretty much. I could appoint some of my people, but they’d just do what I tell them. So why bother?”
     A green look came over the prisoner as the horizon of his future finally resolved into a featureless landscape of grievous futility. He puffed out his cheeks, his eyes rolled up into his head, and he vomited his breakfast back onto his plate.
     “It’s been nice chatting with you, Jason, but I have an awful lot to look after here. We’re slaughtering some hogs today. It’s the season for it.”
     Bullock left the prisoner staring blankly into the panes of the conservatory walls and went outside to where his men waited.
     “Take all these fellows down to the River Road,” Bullock told the versatile Dick Lee, “and hang them there at twenty-yard intervals.”

The sequel to my 2008 novel of post-oil America, World Made By Hand, is shipping to booksellers now.  Order via AMAZON.

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About James Howard Kunstler

View all posts by James Howard Kunstler
James Howard Kunstler is the author of many books including (non-fiction) The Geography of Nowhere, The City in Mind: Notes on the Urban Condition, Home from Nowhere, The Long Emergency and the four-book series of World Made By Hand novels, set in a post economic crash American future. His most recent book is Living in the Long Emergency; Global Crisis, the Failure of the Futurists, and the Early Adapters Who Are Showing Us the Way Forward. Jim lives on a homestead in Washington County, New. York, where he tends his garden and communes with his chickens.

464 Responses to “Vacation Special — Excerpt from “The Witch of Hebron””

  1. myrtlemay August 14, 2010 at 9:29 pm #

    FIRST! m

  2. ozone August 14, 2010 at 11:09 pm #

    You’ve got my attention;
    A ripping yarn ensues!

  3. asoka August 14, 2010 at 11:23 pm #

    Interesting that Bullock doesn’t like that “fruity herbal crap” but does seem to cherish “old Bob Dylan”
    I’ll be interested to see how much of a market there is for this kind of fiction. I mean, even this little excerpt is full of sexual innuendo and gratuitous violence. Is this headed toward the big screen?

  4. San Jose Mom 51 August 14, 2010 at 11:46 pm #

    I want more!

  5. mika. August 15, 2010 at 12:04 am #

    I much prefer the 1000 word essays. 🙁

  6. novacandycaine August 15, 2010 at 12:56 am #

    I’m with Mika.

  7. LewisLucanBooks August 15, 2010 at 1:17 am #

    Well, if you like SHTF disaster porn (I do!) AFTER JK’s book you might want to check out “One Minute After.” Pretty new. Life in one little North Carolina town after an EMP wipes out all the electronics in the US. The first year. It ain’t pretty.
    One scene really haunts me. Refugees are given passage through the town (not enough resources to let them over-run them) although anyone with valuable skills is skimmed off to stay. Ms. Business Woman, an attractive former public relations person with a tobacco company tries to weedle her way into the town, deploying all those public relations skills that have always worked so well for her in the past.
    But she has no useful skills, so it’s on down the road for her. Don’t know why, it’s just a scene that I keep thinking about.

  8. Vision Cube August 15, 2010 at 2:00 am #

    I’m pretty sure the intruders were NASCAR fans in a past life, and one or two of them undoubtedly toiled in a tattoo parlor.
    I’m especially impressed with the landscape reference to Sophie’s curves, and the possibility of avid lovemaking for the elderly–presumably minus the Viagra.
    I too, want more!

  9. Dutch Treat August 15, 2010 at 7:40 am #

    Not my cup of tea…

  10. asoka August 15, 2010 at 9:41 am #

    In this one little excerpt we find perennial themes in human history: capital punishment in the form of beheading and and lynching.
    The appeal seems to be to our baser instincts and therefore should be a big success.
    It goes without saying that I do not approve of capital punishment regardless of who does it, regardless of the offense, which in this excerpt appears to have been trespassing.
    I remember reading a post that Mr. Kunstler is Jewish. I don’t know if that is true, and it matters not. I am not anti-Semitic. I love the Jewish people and laud their contributions to civilization.
    But, since this excerpt does feature beheading (WHICH I OPPOSE WHOEVER COMMITS IT) I would point out that, long before Islam existed, the Jewish scriptures featured beheading.
    In the Old Testament cutting off the head of a slain or disabled enemy (I Sam. xvii. 51 et seq.) for a trophy occurs (I Sam. xxxi. 9). Beheading was practiced by the Philistines. Soldiers sent to kill anybody usually brought his head as proof of the faithful execution of their mission (see II Kings vi. 31, 32; II Sam. xvi. 9; xx. 21, 22).
    I am also not anti-Islamic of Islamophobic. I love Muslims and the contributions they have made to civilization. But Islam continued the Jewish practice of beheading and also justify it in the Quran. Islamist decapitations may be intended as psychological warfare unrelated to any true Islamic content.
    Both Jewish and Muslim justifications of beheading are barbaric. I would not write a novel including the practice.
    Human life is sacred and should never be taken, even in the case of a nonviolent offense like trespassing.
    Human history has not universally seen beheading.
    The Egyptians believed that life has its seat in the head, and that beheading means, therefore, a destruction of the soul’s second existence.
    Beheading has been done by Jewish and Muslim fundamentalists, but other religions do not practice beheading.
    I imagine that, in this excerpt, Bullock is utilizing lynching as a form of terrorism. The purpose of terrorism is to strike fear into the hearts of opponents in order to win political concession. By saying “hang them there at twenty-yard intervals” Bullock is saying put them on display, so anyone else thinking of trespassing on my property will see what will happen to them.
    IMO this excerpt is a naked appeal to base instincts. Even in a World Made By Hand environment a better way can be found.
    Although I do not share the assumption of much of the CFN community that survival is the highest value. (None of us will “survive” much beyond 100 years in any event). The more important question is how will we live.
    There was a famous Jewish teacher who showed a different way. Instead of beheading he said “put away your sword,” instead of survival he chose to pursue the path of loving your enemies. Some say he was crucified as a result… others say he overcame death and is still alive.
    In any event, violence is not necessary. Groups practicing nonviolence, like the Amish, the Mennonites, the Quakers, the Doukhobors, did survive in a World Made By Hand era.

  11. lbendet August 15, 2010 at 10:19 am #

    Thanks for the sneak preview.
    The Bullock home has all the trappings of the familiar. It’s embodies culture and comfort along with adult sensuality between the couple. This mutual respect is in contrast to the intruders who have no resources from which to draw and lack any tie to social values. They are the disinherited.
    As with what we are witnessing now, there are uneven effects of the breakdown of our economy throughout the country leaving some as the biggest losers. At what point does this spill over?
    It has been pointed out even in the case of some serial murderers that the attack on married women is a proxy show of power over their husbands. This power play is what lies behind the rape.
    The thin veneer of civilization is like the silk nightgown so easily ripped away by the more savage tendencies that lay beneath the psyche.
    When the rule of law is stripped away we are left with the basic needs to survive however we can. With no means of support we are left to our own devices. Depending on who you are ethically, there may be no standards of behavior.

  12. Laura Louzader August 15, 2010 at 10:39 am #

    Asoka, do you approve of homicide in self-defense?
    When a dozen thugs invade your home at midnight, and stomp into your bedroom, bearing deadline arms, and assault you and your wife, they are not “trespassing”, they are mounting a deadly assault.
    That is why the law usually makes a major distinction between a burglary committed by someone unarmed, and one by someone armed to the teeth. You are not permitted to kill a simple “trespasser” but when you are about to be murdered you have an obligation to fight back with as much deadly force as you can muster.
    Would it be more moral to just let you and yours be beaten, raped, and murdered?
    This is the whole problem with “Christian” morality- it demands you “turn the other cheek” to people who want to destroy you, and let them murder you.

  13. Laura Louzader August 15, 2010 at 10:41 am #

    Excuse me, I meant to say “deadly” not “deadline”.
    It is strange how you can type another word completely…. and another part of my mind was thinking of a deadline I must meet.

  14. mika. August 15, 2010 at 11:47 am #

    @asoka: “Jewish scriptures featured beheading.”
    The Hebrew bible is an ancient chronicle of the people of Israel. Basically, their record of history. Yes, there are some cases where against overwhelming odds there occurred an outcome that was unexpected and it was described to be an intervention by the God of Israel. But to think of the Hebrew Bible as a religious text is an error.
    Also, saying that this or that behavior is prescribed by the God of Israel because it was described to have occurred on this or that occasion is a logical fallacy. The laws of the God of Israel are pretty simple. There are only ten of them, so they should be fairly simple to follow, even for you asoka.
    So to answer your assertion, no, beheading is not prescribed by the God of Israel under any circumstance. As to what muhmud/allah prescribed, I’ll leave that for you to enlighten us.

  15. asoka August 15, 2010 at 1:00 pm #

    Mikah, you dance well, but it a dance to deny the truth in Judaism. You can evade the question. But your assertion is not supported by the rabbinical literature. According to rabbinical opinion, Beheading was one of the accepted modes of execution in the Bible (Mishnah Sanh. vii. 1).
    Murder and idolatry (when committed by a whole city, Deut. xiii. 14) were the crimes punishable with beheading (Mishnah Sanh. ix. 1; Mek., Mishpa?im, 4; Sifre, Deut. 94).
    You never did answer my question if you are a practicing Jew and, if so, what sect you belong to, so I don’t know if you even know what the Mishnah is, or if it carries weight. You don’t answer my questions. You evade, like you did when I asked you about self-defense, like you did when I asked you about imperialism.
    By the way, in this JHK excerpt Bullock says: “hang them there at twenty-yard intervals” to put the dead bodies on display, and hanging is also recorded in the Bible (Deut. xxi. 22) but, according to the rabbinical interpretation, not as a mode of execution, but rather of exposure after death (Sanh. vi. 4, 75b), just as Bullock intends in this excerpt.
    I’m waiting to see if JHK incorporates stoning into his novel. According to the Pentateuchal laws, there are a number of “crimes” to be punished with death by stoning, like blasphemy, idolatry, Sabbath-breaking, witchcraft. Gee, I wonder who determines what actions constitute those “crimes” that Judaism would justify death by stoning.

  16. Andrew August 15, 2010 at 1:03 pm #

    Looks to be another great read from Mr. Kunstler!

  17. mika. August 15, 2010 at 1:45 pm #

    @asoka: “You never did answer my question if you are a practicing Jew and, if so, what sect you belong to..”
    I didn’t see you ask that question. I have no problem answering it. Of-course I’m a practicing Jew — I’m a Hebrew and an Israeli national! As to what sect I belong to, it is the “sect” that comprises 90% of the Jewish population — the secular “sect”.
    Rabbinical literature has just about zero to do with Jewish thought. Yes, it’s a commentary on the Bible, a commentary that practically nobody ascribes to. Nobody in the Jewish world cares what these self-appointed hacks dressed in 17th century polack dress think. These hacks are segregated from the Jewish population and the Jewish population is segregated from them. These people live in their own bubble, and frankly nobody cares what they think. That includes me. So, again, let me reiterate so that even you can understand. THESE HACKS ARE NOT REPRESENTATIVE OF JEWISH THOUGHT AND ARE NOT REPRESENTATIVE OF THE JEWISH PEOPLE.
    Now, perhaps you will finally answer my question?

  18. progressorconserve August 15, 2010 at 2:06 pm #

    Looks like another great piece of work by JHK.
    And the book excerpt used for the blog this week looks like an accurate representation of a possible response to *one* possible collapse scenario.
    JHK may be at once an pessimist AND an optimist!
    Enjoy your vacation, JHK.
    And enjoy your week, CFN!!

  19. mika. August 15, 2010 at 3:05 pm #

    True Confessions (on Liberty and the Republic) – http://BIT.LY/A5F4FW
    You should read this. Read it to the end. It’s a very good essay in that it explains the fundamental philosophical differences between us, and why it is you’re so misguided.

  20. Puzzler August 15, 2010 at 3:47 pm #

    Nice teaser — look forward to reading the new novel.

  21. asia August 15, 2010 at 4:06 pm #

    Youve got to see pix of the ‘ new ‘ Santa monica Place, which opened a few days ago.
    especially the ‘ silver balls ‘ fax fountain at 4th and broadway. as large and ugly as augusts ‘eyesore’ you chose. just not at ground level!
    huge siver christmas ornaments arranged into a fountain. and each one the size of a beach ball.

  22. asia August 15, 2010 at 4:09 pm #

    Jim…ever hear of california city? if not theres a facsinating front page story on ydays LA Times.
    this a.m. i heard there was a disaster during a car race in the mohave killing 8 spectators, i thought maybe it was there but no it was somewhere else where they go race them cars across the mohave.

  23. ctemple August 15, 2010 at 4:31 pm #

    Sounds Good!

  24. Jim from Watkins Glen August 15, 2010 at 4:53 pm #

    Good read. My copy’s in the mail.

  25. asoka August 15, 2010 at 8:41 pm #

    Mika., Thanks for the link. I would like to read it, but this is the message I get from the bit.ly link:
    Page Not Found
    Uh oh, bit.ly couldn’t find a link for the bit.ly URL you clicked.
    Maybe one of the pufferfish ate it
    Do you have a different link, or a citation?

  26. asoka August 15, 2010 at 9:01 pm #

    Mika, thanks for the reply. As a “secular Jew” you are a minority Jew, if you are in Israel. Only 46% of Jews in Israel are “secular Jews.” Secular Jews are not practicing Jews.
    Practicing Jews are those actively engaged in a congregation, in other words: Ultra Orthodox, Orthodox, Modern Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist, Renewal, Humanistic, “independent” minyan.
    You must be thinking that Judaism is not solely a religion. You must think it is a culture, an ethic, a lifestyle and a people.
    Webster defines “secular” as “a worldly view as distinguished from things related to religion, so if you are unaffiliated and not worshiping on Shabbat, you have a slim connection to Judaism.
    Hillel said: “That which is hateful to you, do not unto another: This is the whole Torah.”
    That rules out things like six-day imperialist wars. But then, from your reply, what Hillel says probably doesn’t matter to you, nor does what is in the Torah, or the Mishnah, or any other Jewish scriptures.
    You are a secular “Jew in name only” Israeli who is morally bankrupt because you don’t have to follow any of those silly rules about killing. Just demonize the Muslims, call whatever immoral actions Israel commits self-defense, and be done with it.

  27. mika. August 15, 2010 at 9:05 pm #

    try here:

  28. asoka August 15, 2010 at 9:17 pm #

    Mika, is it Eric Andrew’s essay you wanted me to read? I read it all the way to the end to the Tolstoy quote, with which I agree. But Eric Andrews is promoting information that is not factual:

    At the Tea Party, an old man asked “who here is willing to give up their Social Security to support these ideas?” To me it’s laughable: Social Security is ALREADY broke: if the government took 100% of all income, corporate and private, they ALREADY couldn’t pay Social Security and Medicaid. The awful joke is on those who actually believed somebody else would uphold their personal responsibility for them so they wouldn’t have to. Social Security, Medicare, your pension, government help-—already gone.

    This is incorrect information. Social Security is not near being broke. In fact, the Medicare HI Trust Fund is adequately financed until 2029, and the Social Security OASI and Disability Insurance Trust Funds are adequately financed until 2040 and 2018, respectively.
    SOURCE: Status of the Social Security and Medicare Programs, Actuarial Publications, Summary of the 2010 Annual Reports
    Eric Andrews willingness to lie about Social Security makes his other information questionable as well.
    Eric Andrews is engaged in fear-mongering, much like you do with your anti-Muslim tirades.

  29. mika. August 15, 2010 at 9:36 pm #

    @asoka: Only 46% of Jews in Israel are “secular Jews.” Secular Jews are not practicing Jews.
    No. You’re confused. Secular Jews keep up national traditions and customs such as circumcision on the 8th day, bar-mitzvah at age 13, Passover dinner. I too do all these things. They’re part of my national heritage.
    Think about it this way. There are many Jews that keep a Christmas tree in the house and celebrate Christmas, mostly abroad but some even in Israel. In Israel the celebration is called Silvester. It’s part of a tradition that people picked up, and that’s all. It doesn’t mean they’re Christians or believe in Christ. They’re not, and they don’t. They are atheists thru and thru. I know, because many of my close friends celebrate Silvester. In fact, I celebrated it with them.
    If you want to get an accurate gauge of how many Jews are religious, find out how many Jews Chabbad has on its membership list. Take that number against the total Jewish population as a percentage and triple it, and you still would not reach 10%, I guarantee it.

  30. mika. August 15, 2010 at 9:45 pm #

    @asoka: “This is incorrect information. Social Security is not near being broke.”
    Honestly, a person can’t be that daft. Can he?
    The US is trillions in the hole. There’s no money for anything, let alone SS. The US is living on borrowed money, and even that is going to end very soon.

  31. asoka August 15, 2010 at 10:03 pm #

    Laura asks: “Asoka, do you approve of homicide in self-defense?”
    This is directly related to JHK’s published excerpt because his narrative fiction is exactly this situation.
    Here is my answer, courtesy of Joan Baez:
    Here are the first few lines:
    Fred: OK. So you’re a pacifist. What would you do if someone were, say, attacking your grandmother?
    Joan: Attacking my poor old grandmother?
    Fred: Yeah, you’re in a room with your grandmother and there’s a guy about to attack her and you’re standing there. What would you do?
    Joan: I’d yell, “Three cheers for Grandma!” and leave the room.”
    Fred: No, seriously. Say he had a gun and he was about to shoot her. Would you shoot him first?
    Joan: Do I have a gun?
    Fred: Yes
    Joan: No. I’m a pacifist, I don’t have a gun.
    Fred: Well, I say you do.
    Joan: All right. Am I a good shot?
    Fred: Yes.
    Joan: I’d shoot the gun out of his hand.
    Fred: No, then you’re not a good shot.
    Joan: I’d be afraid to shoot. Might kill Grandma.
    Fred: Come on, OK, look. We’ll take another example. Say, you’re driving a truck….
    Fred: You haven’t answered my question. You’re just trying to get out of it…
    Joan: – I’m really trying to say a couple of things. One is that no one knows what they’ll do in a moment of crisis and hypothetical questions get hypothetical answers. I’m also hinting that you’ve made it impossible for me to come out of the situation without having killed one or more people. Then you say, ‘Pacifism is a nice idea, but it won’t work’. But that’s not what bothers me.
    Fred: What bothers you?
    Joan: Well, you might not like it because it’s not hypothetical. It’s real. And it makes the assault on Grandma look like a garden party.
    Rest of the Joan Baez essay here:
    Laura, self-defense is used as an excuse to get away with murder, literally. Police routinely murder black people and then claim it was self-defense. Bush bombed, invaded, and occupied middle eastern countries PREEMPTIVELY claiming it was in self-defense. You can get away with murder using the self-defense justification for your actions. Any more you don’t even have to meet criteria like imminent danger or necessity.
    In JHK’s excerpt the armed intruder said: “It’ll save us all a lot of bother. Just take us to where the gold is.” Do you sense imminent danger in those words? Sounds like the trespasser was after gold and did not enter the room guns blazing with intent to murder.
    The short answer to your question is: No, I do not believe in the self-defense excuse because I don’t believe in killing under any circumstance.

  32. asoka August 15, 2010 at 10:14 pm #

    Mika, now you are showing your true colors. You are ignoring established facts because of your ideology. Do you personally know anyone who has not received their Social Security check because you believe incorrectly that Social Security is broke?
    The Social Security trust funds hold the assets that have accumulated within Social Security from the annual surpluses the program has built up over the years. Right now, the funds (there is one for retirement and one for disability) have a whopping $2.5 trillion.
    That’s $2.5 TRILLION in the black, not the red.
    The program can make good on all of its promises for a quarter of a century, first by relying on the interest owed to the funds, and then by redeeming the assets in them.

  33. upstatebob August 15, 2010 at 10:24 pm #

    I think some here are missing the point of Jim’s writing.
    clue: it’s not about his writing talent although I find it good enough for the purpose….. -which is to make you aware that what he is writing COULD HAPPEN. -And those with
    juicy pensions or fancy places in Huntington Beach, or his fav, the Hamptons will not fare as well as those with REAL assets like land and self-supporting machinery. I especially like the fellow’s hydro generator. BTW, those guns and doubloons you have stashed away won’t feed you. The folks who grow food will eat it themselves.
    -the little red hen

  34. asoka August 15, 2010 at 10:40 pm #

    upstatebob said: “BTW, those guns and doubloons you have stashed away won’t feed you.”
    I agree. Guns and gold will not even keep you alive. Indeed, those who obviously have no gold will not be visited by trespassers looking for gold. In this excerpt the set up JHK describes is very rich, the equivalent of today’s Hamptons.
    As far as a gun keeping you alive, all the three trespassers would have to do is torch the house at 2:00 a.m. and wait for Bullock and his wife to walk out the front door, to be shot as they filled the door frame.
    Having a gun would not provide a scintilla of self-defense when your bedroom is starting to burn up around you, and in the dark you would have no idea where the incoming bullets were coming from, as you fled the flaming inferno that your house has become.
    If others believe you have a supply of guns and ammo, that are valuable for barter, you become a good target. Best not to have any guns or ammo in the house.
    Of course, if your house is made of adobe bricks the walls are impervious to bullets, bombs, and fire.

  35. mika. August 15, 2010 at 10:50 pm #

    @asoka: “The Social Security trust funds hold the assets that have accumulated within Social Security from the annual surpluses the program has built up over the years. Right now, the funds (there is one for retirement and one for disability) have a whopping $2.5 trillion.”
    LOL! Ok. Believe what you want to believe.
    Btw, where are these funds held? What tangible assets are represented by these funds? Whose paying interest on these funds?

  36. Laura Louzader August 15, 2010 at 11:10 pm #

    Asoka, your argument against homicide in self-defense because police sometimes use the self-defense excuse as an excuse for excessive force and outright murder, just doesn’t wash.
    Yes, sometimes they do. And just because they do, does it mean I should submit to murder simply because someone else uses excessive force? Should the elderly black man on the West Side of Chicago, who blew away an intruder who broke into his house, have meekly submitted to being murdered, or should he have assumed that someone who invaded his home was NOT going to kill him or harm him?
    I personally keep no firearms, preferring the “passive” defense of a very secure second floor apartment with stout doors and locks, in a fairly decent neighborhood, and no windows to crawl through, to owning firearms. I don’t personally want the responsibility of gun ownership and try to avoid places and situations where I might need one, like the interstate 100 miles from nowhere, or really horrible, violence plagued neighborhoods. I am fortunate that I can make these choices.
    Other people can’t, notably poor black people living in nabes like Cottage Grove and Garfield Park. They are living in tiny little houses or ground floor and basement apartments that are very easy to break into, and they have no choice about that.They can’t afford secure places in decent neighborhoods. Other people, such as farmers, live in isolated country houses with no help or no law enforcement anywhere near, and they, too, are very vulnerable. One elderly black man on the far south side had to blow away one poor, misguided youth who crawled through his kitchen window in 1987, and then another ten years later, another,who crawled through his window, knives in hand. That’s the kind of nabe the poor old guy lived in, for he was POOR. Should he have attempted to “persuade” these sweet young things to peacefully back out of his place? In my view, he did the only thing he could do to protect himself, and he had every right to do it. Moreover, he did his community a favor- removed thugs from circulation.
    I have a dear friend, a man, who 30 years ago, was maneuvered into a kill-or-be-killed situation, and he did the only thing he could do, which was fire on the assailant who rushed him with a knife in hand. He was, after many hours-long interrogations by law enforcement and a thorough investigation of the event, exonerated and cleared of all charges.
    It is very easy for someone living and working in very sheltered circumstances to judge harshly someone who kills in self-defense. It is easy for someone who has never had to stare down the barrel of a gun being held on him to speak of how horribly violent it is to kill in raw self-defence.
    Our criminal wars and the corruption of some of our law enforcement people have nothing to do with my right to defend my life, which is a basic human right, and it is specious of you to even make such a comparison, not to say ridiculous.
    If you value your own life so little that you are willing to submit to murder, that’s your choice. I, however, value my life and believe I have a right to it, just as I believe that others have a right to theirs. However, they have no right to my life, and someone who tries to take it from me is putting his at risk ,because believe me, I will do whatever I have to do to save myself.

  37. Paul Kemp August 15, 2010 at 11:23 pm #

    Well, I like it! Forgive my lack of perfection, Lord, but I still like a bit of righteous vengeance in self-defense. Nonviolent resistance is my ideal, but the one time I tried to reason with armed intruders, I got beaten unconscious and left for dead. So, yes, guns in the last resort — or swords, or what-have-you — are the right tools for the job.
    Good people will quickly be wiped out by the ignorant, violent ones that outnumber them in a scenario like the one Jim describes — IF they don’t protect themselves.
    How will the righteous meek inherit the earth, if they are dead? My intuition tells me that God wants the good people, those who will only use violence in self-defense (not preemptively)as a last resort.
    Violence in self-defense, as I understand it, is not murder. But, I would hope that well-intentioned folks have the question resolved in their minds when the moment of truth arrives, as it surely will.
    This looks to be an exciting book. I’m looking forward to reading it.

  38. Qshtik August 15, 2010 at 11:35 pm #

    A Qshtik re-write
    Who among you has the authority to speak for the rest of this gang?”
    The men swapped glances at each other.
    “Don’t be shy,” Bullock added.
    “We don’t have no official ranks, if that’s what you mean,”
    Bullock: that’s a double negative .. you don’t have any official ranks.
    Prisoner, quizzically: Huh?

  39. mika. August 15, 2010 at 11:48 pm #

    Whose on 3rd base?
    /ducks for cover 🙂

  40. cowswithguns August 16, 2010 at 12:20 am #

    Don’t let Lloyd Blankfein know that you’re spilling the secret that Social Security and Medicare have enough funds.
    Lloyd and his ilk on Wall Street want to add the Social Security money to the Wall Street CEO bonus pool.
    Just imagine how awesome the free-market will be if Lloyd and the boys are making even more money.
    Put granny’s SS check on Red 23 for her, won’t you Lloyd?

  41. wateruser80 August 16, 2010 at 1:08 am #

    It’s not all doom and gloom guys! Look into Transition Towns that are taking over all around the world, making the important transition from the lives we lead today to a peak oil world. There is SO MUCH going on all over the place!!
    An incredible conference in Asia on moving to local small ecovillages in a post peak-oil world. Japanese professors, permaculture experts, and Chinese peasants.
    GET involved in your own transition town rather than sitting at home waiting for the SHTF. Be a part of the solution. Here we are planting public gardens all over the place, along boulevards, meeting with council to get edible nut trees to replace existing ornamental and re-skilling. Further up the coast the council is teaching residents about edible weeds and creating food maps. Talk to anyone and everyone who will listen.
    More from all around the world:
    Heck even kids these days are signing up to study this at university
    You create the future you can imagine.

  42. asoka August 16, 2010 at 7:28 am #

    Mika said: “Btw, where are these funds held? What tangible assets are represented by these funds?”
    The funds are backed up by real gold bars in Fort Knox.
    For the last ten years I have been reading on this blog about the “fiat” economy.
    It must really irritate you that a fiat economy works.
    You never answered my question: do you know of anyone, anywhere, at anytime these last ten years who has not received their social security check?
    You incorrectly believe a fiat economy is bogus, so how is it possible that it works?
    As long as everyone values the worthless paper the system works. Try it at the grocery store today.
    Even paper not backed up by gold will buy your groceries. That is the reality and you can test it out today at the grocery store with your “worthless” dollars not backed up by anything except trust.
    Turns out trust will make sure you have something to eat for dinner tonight.
    Trust and barter will also get you dinner during the Long Emergency is you play your cards right, have some skills and are not afraid of work.

  43. welles August 16, 2010 at 8:13 am #

    Just as Lame as the TV drivel that saturates US airwaves, and non-constructive. JHK’s exhausted his doomer meme & needs to start highlighting permaculture, off-grid self-sufficiency etc.
    Focus on the positive, your blog’s got sway so throw your weight around positively. People want a Leader.

  44. asoka August 16, 2010 at 8:31 am #

    Laura, as I said (through the voice of Joan Baez), no one can know what will happen in the future and this JHK excerpt is a hypothetical situation that is fantasy.
    If the trespassers had intended harm, Bullock would have been blown away before he had a chance to reach for the sword, or at a minimum he would have been blown away as the first head fell to the floor. Isn’t that what guns are for in the hands of homicidal maniacs?
    Unless the trespassers were nonviolent, just looking for gold, so they just calmly stood there waiting for head number two and head number three to be chopped. Lambs waiting patiently for slaughter by the barbaric Mr. Bullock, who will, of course, claim the killing was in self-defense.
    I respect your choices, Laura. Each person is responsible for their own decisions.
    However, I would like to inject a note of reality into all this fantastic fiction and talk about crime and trespassers brought up by the JHK excerpt this week.
    The assumption seems to be that when TSHTF there will NOT be an outpouring of solidarity and compassion and community members helping each other out. The assumption seems to be that there will be a war of “all against all” as Hobbes said.
    It is interesting then, to note what is happening in the real world. Let’s take Chicago, for example.
    As the economy has worsened over the last three years, and more and more people are without jobs and without money, THE CRIME RATE IS CHICAGO HAS STEADILY DECREASED.
    Chicago Police Supt. Jody Weis reports that violent crime is down 11 percent in the city and the murder rate so far this year is below the five-year average for the same time period.
    “While the public perception is that violence has increased to unprecedented levels, the facts do not support that conclusion,” Weis said.
    Overall, crime is down 6.9 percent this year, and April 2010 marked the 16th consecutive month of lower overall crime in Chicago, according to preliminary crime statistics.
    Weis attributed the decrease in crime to smart policing, sharing more information among federal, state and local police, and building partnerships within communities.
    “The majority of the homicides are committed with a gun,” Weis said, standing before tables filled with about 30 guns collected during a buy-back on Saturday. “And the one sure way to reduce gun violence is to eliminate the availability of guns.”
    Sounds like the Chicago police are making our communities safer. I support the Chicago police in their efforts to reduce gun availability through voluntary programs.
    I stress voluntary since I understand that we have a 2nd amendment for guns and we have a 14th amendment for citizenship, and neither should be changed.
    In any event, the facts do not support the hypothesis that, as things get worse economically, crime goes up. Just the opposite is the case.
    TLE and a World Made By Hand or Witch of Hebron world, does not mean suddenly people will start attacking and strangling their neighbors.
    Instead, as things become worse, people will help each other out and recognize even more the importance of community and maintaining peaceful relations with neighbors.

  45. wateruser80 August 16, 2010 at 9:07 am #

    It’s a shame my comment was not printed, was there not enough doom and gloom in it? I will leave out the links that some may have found useful. There is SO MUCH work going on in communities all over the world, in making the transition to a post peak-oil world. From Japan, to Chinese peasants, Australia, all over Europe and now in North America too. Google “Transition Towns” and US. Be a part of the solution. Is this comment OK?

  46. lsjogren August 16, 2010 at 9:38 am #

    asoka, you make a good point that fiat monetary systems can work, at least for some period of time.
    Our fiat system started in, when was it, 1914, something like that.
    I believe our currency has lost something like 95% of its value since then, yet the country operating under that system became the most prosperous nation in human history.
    On the other hand, you must also acknowledge that fiat systems can spin out of control, e.g. Weimar Germany.
    I believe the monetary policies we have pursued of late make us highly susceptible to a hyperinflationary spiral.

  47. The Mook August 16, 2010 at 9:50 am #

    Sign of the week in Potter County, Pa. which is, in my opinion, the most beautiful county in Pennsylvania. “Natural Gas – Think Jobs”. I’m thinking Mexicans, Oklahomans, and Texans. Accompanied with pollution, ruined infrastructure, and crime. Please take your people and equipment back to the shithole they call Texas.

  48. lsjogren August 16, 2010 at 9:57 am #

    On self defense:
    The notion that a self-defense situation like the one described cannot happen strikes me as a manifestation of the “hate that gray, wash it away” mentality of the left:
    All conflict can be solved by sitting around singing Kumbaya with those misguidedly identified as adversaries.
    Instead of adjusting one’s political views to reflect reality, political leftists tend to simply mold reality to conform to their political fantasies.
    To be fair, some on the right have an equally “anti-reality” orientation, e.g. religious fundamentalists, however, I have always found the willful ignorance of those on the left more offensive because they tend to to be more educated, so there is far less excuse for their ignorance.
    As to the incident portrayed in the excerpt, I think perhaps a more substantive objection would be: How plausible was the way the incident played out?
    I would think the looters would likely be far more proficient and well-organized to have survived to that point.
    Also, the Bullocks seemed awfully naive and unprepared for the situation.
    One could argue I suppose, who cares how plausible the scene was, this is fiction. But Kunstler clearly wishes to paint what he feels is a realistic portrait of a future he sees as likely.

  49. lsjogren August 16, 2010 at 9:59 am #

    By the way: Wonder whether JHK has Sondra Bullock in mind to play Sophie Bullock?

  50. scarlet runner August 16, 2010 at 10:21 am #

    Sandra Bullock could do Sophie’s voice. Make it an animated feature film.

  51. empirestatebuilding August 16, 2010 at 10:47 am #

    Enjoy the vacation. I am on vacation too. I went to Disney World. I figured, I get one more visit before the collapse. So far so good. Although Florida in August is unbearable and I could see this place emptying out faster than a theater on fire when the A/C stops working.
    Aimlow Joe was here.

  52. asoka August 16, 2010 at 11:02 am #

    At the root of all the fear exhibited on this blog is the belief that we are all individuals selves (hence the possibility of “self-defense” and the belief that our bodies are ourselves (hence the emphasis on physical survival as the highest value.
    Socrates, Mansur Al-Hallaj, Jesus and thousands (millions?) like them illustrated through their lives and through their deaths the truth of what the Buddhists say: we are not the body, we are not the mind. Or, as Jesus said, you must lose your self to find yourself: “For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?”
    Mansur Al-Hallaj (may peace be upon him) believed in union with the Divine, that God was within him, and that he and God had become one and the same.
    Just like in JHK’s excerpt from The Witch of Hebron, Mansur was cut into pieces, but not for gold. Mansur was chopped to pieces because in the state of ecstacy he exclaimed Ana al Haq “I am the truth”. He was executed in public in Baghdad.
    But unlike Progressorconserve, Socrates, Jesus and Mansur did not have “survival” as the highest value, and unlike Laura, they did not believe in “self-defense.”
    They cut Mansur into pieces and then they burnt his remains. He kept repeating “I am the Truth” as they kept cutting his arms, legs, tongue and finally his head.
    Although Mika seems to thinks he can “wipe the smile off” a face, the death of Mansur proves otherwise. (Asoka said “smile on his heart” not smile on his face. Even more difficult to reach.)
    Mansur was smiling, even as they chopped off his head. Al-Hallaj wanted to testify of this relationship to God to others thus even asking his fellow Muslims to kill him and accepting his execution, saying that “what is important for the ecstatic is for the One to reduce him to oneness.”
    Mansur also referred to the martyrdom of Christ, saying he also wanted to die “in the supreme confession of the cross.” Like Christ, he gave his execution a redemptive significance, believing as he did that his death “was uniting his beloved God and His community of Muslims against himself and thereby bore witness in extremis to the tawhid (the oneness) of both.
    When they were taking Mansur to court, a Sufi asks him:”What is love?” He answers: “You will see it today, tomorrow, and the day after tomorrow.” They killed him that day, burned him the next day and threw his ashes to the wind the day after that.
    “This is love,” Attar says. His legs were cut off, he smiled and said, “I used to walk the earth with these legs, now there’s only one step to heaven, cut that if you can.” And when his hands were cut off he paints his face with his own blood, when asked why, he says: “I have lost a lot of blood, and I know my face has turned yellow, I don’t want to look pale-faced (as of fear)… .”
    As Asoka of CFN said: we do not get to choose how or when we die, but our eventual death is certain.
    What we get to choose is how to live our lives in love — without doing any harm to any other being.

  53. asoka August 16, 2010 at 11:15 am #

    At the root of all the fear exhibited on this blog is the belief that we are all individual selves (hence the possibility of “self-defense”) and the belief that our body-minds are ourselves (hence the emphasis on physical survival as the highest value.)

  54. gavin August 16, 2010 at 11:20 am #

    Re: new hate mail.
    The term is “bated breath,” not “baited breath.” This is a minor point (not a miner one,) that will help anyone who writes hate mail sound smarter than the person they are trying to insult. Good luck to all you haters, and to all you hatters as well.

  55. Headless August 16, 2010 at 11:28 am #

    Mel Gibson as Bullock–it just screams for him in the part!
    I haven’t bought a new book in years. That just changed.

  56. asoka August 16, 2010 at 11:30 am #

    “Self-Defense” Frees Officers
    Amadou Diallo (may peace be upon him), an unarmed West African immigrant with no criminal record, was 22 years old when he was killed on Feb. 5, 1999, by four New York City police officers.
    The officers — Kenneth Boss, Sean Carroll, Edward McMellon and Richard Murphy — acknowledged firing 41 shots that night, but said they thought that Mr. Diallo was carrying a gun. Mr. Diallo, who came to America more than two years before from Guinea and worked as a street peddler in Manhattan, was hit by 19 bullets while standing in the doorway of his Bronx apartment building.
    All four officers, who were in plainclothes, said they approached Mr. Diallo because they thought he fit the description of a man wanted in a rape case. They contended that when he pulled out his wallet to show identification they mistook it for a gun.
    The officers faced prosecution on second-degree murder and other charges but were acquitted by a jury in Albany, where the trial had been moved because of concerns over pretrial publicity.

  57. wardoc August 16, 2010 at 11:36 am #

    Another accurate portrayal of the chaos and violence to come, sooner than most of you expect.
    I am amazed at some of the comments from self perceived “gentle people,” who don’t approve of capital punishment, violence, etc.
    Those of you with gentler sensibilities and weak stomachs (and weak knees) are in for quite a shock when things really start falling apart, i.e. when there are no cops to stop the gangs at your front door. If you read any historical accounts of regime change or collapse of authority (or even more recent events such as Iraq, Kosovo, Serbia, Ughanda), you will see that beheading and capital punishment are the least of the events to challenge your polite sensibilities; I wonder what your attitudes will be when you see your daughters and your wives being repeatedly gang raped, or better, when you witness family members being the main course of a cannibal groups meal, knowing you’re desert.
    In the past, during chaos, people with polite sensibilities die first, and badly. Some of you with such sensibilities will not do well when the SHTF, to say the least. Then again, you will serve a purpose: a protein source.
    US Army Medical Corps. (Maj. Ret.)

  58. Smokyjoe August 16, 2010 at 11:39 am #

    “Instead of adjusting one’s political views to reflect reality, political leftists tend to simply mold reality to conform to their political fantasies.”
    Sad but true. I’m a leftist but also a good shot and more than willing to shoot an intruder.
    When I even breathe about this around my political fellow-travelers, I get this disgusted backlash. I tell them that self-defense, of nation or person, does not contradict progressive views…the argument goes nowhere.
    So where are other conservative progressives? It’s not a contradiction to be pro-defense, pro-self-defense, suspicious of corporations, supportive of environmental protection.
    Meanwhile, the Right is now insane and the Libertarians are at best amiable nut-jobs. I guess that’s why I have so many Libertarian friends. We can have a good laugh and a beer and tell dirty jokes w/o offending the politically correct or the Jesus-freaks.
    Just remember, this is a work of fiction, and I like to see yahoos get it in my fiction. This is a nice alternate ending to what happened in Big Slide.

  59. jerry August 16, 2010 at 11:41 am #

    Such horror of invading psychopaths is not new or will it ever go away. Most of the time, it comes from within the family, but just recently we learned of the escaped prisoners, one still at-large, stealing a truck from a couple, now dead along with their burned out trailer, to make a run for it accompanied by his psychopathic girlfriend.
    Times will likely be getting tougher for many. The elite kleptocrats are trying to grab more as they await Bada Bing Bernanke’s QE2 program to further enrich the banking mobster crowd.
    BO appears to be doing nothing to stop this or develop a plan to fix an economy that is likely to further devolve. It is a planned demolition.
    The Rubicon is at work!

  60. asoka August 16, 2010 at 11:57 am #

    wardoc said: “Another accurate portrayal of the chaos and violence to come, sooner than most of you expect.”
    Where you been, brother? The brutality with which Negroes have been treated in the USA simply cannot be overstated, however unwilling white men may be to hear it. Who you think you tryin’ to scare? We been there, done that.
    “God gave Noah the rainbow sign,
    No more water, the fire next time!”

  61. truthteller August 16, 2010 at 12:07 pm #

    I’ve been wishing for a French-style revolution in this country for several weeks now. After all, that is what the Jefferson quote about watering the tree of liberty with the blood of patriots is referring to – killing the aristocracy! I’d like nothing better than to be joined by several thousand people on Wall St., each carrying a bag of feathers, a bucket of tar, and a noose to kill as many of the thieving SOB’s there as possible. So, my sympathies are not with the Bullocks. Yes, their farm may function as a feudal society, but my strong belief in using the Long Emergency to achieve a more egalitarian society without a feudal structure would lead me to want to strip families like the Bullocks of their personal wealth for the greater good of all the remaining people. In my ideal of the future of the long emergency, no one should be a servant to any single master. The entire society should function for the good of all, and leaders should be selected on a rational basis.
    I was re-watching a program on the Science Channel last night about the aftermath of a large comet strike on the Earth. I thought the creators of the plot were far too kind in their assessment of how people would behave towards each other. I can imagine a more Hobbs-ian outcome than one of cooperation and a fairly quick re-establishment of rudimentary society the writers envisioned. I think all the men who could not defend themselves physically would be quickly killed or cast out, as well as anyone over the age of say 50 – and that would include me – to conserve remaining resources. Any woman of sexual maturity and fecundity – including young teens, would become the concubine property of the Alpha males in any group, and pointy-headed intellectuals who tried to make rational arguments about what was happening scientifically would be put to death as blasphemers. In other words, I don’t have much faith in reason prevailing in a total breakdown of society. We seem to barely have any reason now, while things are still relatively comfortable.

  62. wagelaborer August 16, 2010 at 12:17 pm #

    When you have such a class divided society, with very rich and very poor, you get brutality on both sides.
    The brutality exhibited by Bullock is just as horrible as the brutality exhibited by the intruders.
    So what if the intruders favor tattoos and have no couth, while Bullock listens to Debussy and has imported tea and silk nightgowns for his wife?
    Remember that the much defended American “lifestyle” depends on armed goons invading other countries and terrorizing people in order to take their stuff.
    Funny how people here identify with the wealthy man with servants.
    I’m betting that most of us have much more in common with the starving men, once the goodies quit coming.
    Those getting in a self-righteous uproar against armed home invaders, how do you feel about the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan?

  63. wagelaborer August 16, 2010 at 12:21 pm #

    For those who don’t follow links, here is CIA veteran John Stockwell talking about how the CIA works. He gave this speech in the 80s, speaking about the US attack on the people of Nicaragua, although he mentions that the US support of the muhjadeen in Afghanistan was costing more dollars. Brutal as Kunstler’s vision is, real life horror is worse. And WE are the thugs!
    “Approaching this subject from my own point of view, my own experience — my special expertise in the CIA covert actions — let’s look at Nicaragua. This is the most famous covert action of the fifty that are going on today. They say there are thirteen “major” ones. This is not the biggest one. Afghanistan is. We’ve spent several hundred million dollars in Afghanistan. We’ve spent somewhat less than that, but close, in Nicaragua. Nicaragua is the most famous one, and there’s a reason. Part of it is it’s closer, but a big part of it is the fact that the Administration is using Nicaragua for a very special purpose, so they have made it public from the outset.
    What this is is a technique of destabilization. In covert action, you call it destabilization. You have a target: a government that you don’t like. You pick a country you’re going to go after. The reasons are quite whimsical. We go after a country for a while, and if it doesn’t work, sometimes we wind up being friends with them. They pick a government. They target them. They send the CIA in with its resources and its activists: hiring people, hiring agents to tear apart the social and economic fabric of the country. It’s a technique for putting pressure on the government, hoping they can make the government come to the U.S.’s terms, or that the government will collapse altogether and they can engineer a coup d’etat, and have the thing wind up with their own choice of people in power.
    Now ripping apart the economic and social fabric is fairly textbookish. What we’re talking about is going in and deliberately creating conditions where the farmer can’t get his produce to market; where children can’t go to school; where women are terrified inside their homes as well as outside; where government administered programs grind to a complete halt; where the hospitals are treating wounded people instead of sick people; where international capital is scared away and the country goes bankrupt.
    If you ask the State Department today what is their official explanation of the purpose of the Contras, they say, it is to attack economic targets, meaning, break up the economy of the country. Of course, they’re attacking a lot more.
    To destabilize Nicaragua, beginning in 1981, we began funding this force of Somoza’s ex-National Guardsmen, calling them the Contras, the counter-revolutionaries. We created this force, which did not exist until we allocated money. We armed them. We put uniforms on their backs and boots on their feet, gave them camps in Honduras to live in, medical supplies, doctors, training, leadership, direction, as we sent them in to destabilize Nicaragua. Under our direction, they have been systematically blowing up bridges, sawmills, graneries, government offices, schools, health centers. They ambush trucks so the produce can’t get to market. They raid farms and villages. The farmer has to carry a gun while he tries to plow, if he can plow at all.
    If you want one example of hard proof of the CIA’s involvement in this and their approach to it, dig up the “Sabotage Manual” that they were circulating throughout Nicaragua: a comic-book type of a paper, with visual explanations of what you can do to bring a society to a halt: how you can gum up typewriters; what you can pour in a gas tank to burn up engines; what you can stuff in a sewer to stop up the sewage so it won’t work — things you can do to make a society simply cease to function.
    Systematically, the Contras have been assassinating religious workers, teachers, health workers, elected officials, government administrators. Remember the “Assassination Manual” that surfaced in 1984? It caused such a stir that President Reagan had to address it himself in the presidential debates with Walter Mondale. They use terror to traumatize society so that it cannot function.
    I don’t mean to abuse you with verbal violence, but you have to understand what your Government and its agents are doing.
    They go into villages. They haul out families. With the children forced to watch, they castrate the father. They peel the skin off his face. They put a grenade in his mouth, and pull the pin. With the children forced to watch, they gang-rape the mother, and slash her breasts off. And sometimes, for variety, they make the parents watch while they do these things to the children.”

  64. ozone August 16, 2010 at 12:26 pm #

    Okay, so because of your “moral precepts”, you would deny Mr. Kunstler his right to spin a ripping yarn? WTF?
    Geez, I guess you ain’t gonna be buying a copy, so…. DON’T! Go buy something lovely, uplifting, safe, and decidedly boring; then you’ll be happy.
    How ’bout allowing the rest of us [what we might consider] entertainment/a damn good read. Alrighty?

  65. The Mook August 16, 2010 at 12:30 pm #

    “pointy-headed intellectuals”. Ah yes, why don’t we put them to death for blasphemy now? Especially the ones on CNBC.

  66. asoka August 16, 2010 at 12:31 pm #

    Thanks, Wage, for a dose of reality about who the real terrorists are.
    When blowback happens the story line becomes: “They hate us for our freedom,” not for the American war criminals’ raping and pillaging and bombing and strafing and occupying of their civilian populations.

  67. networker August 16, 2010 at 12:55 pm #

    What, Bullock didn’t keep dogs for advance warning in situations like this? What self-respecting farmer/landowner in a world made by hand doesn’t keep dogs? Gratuitous indeed, and not very realistic.

  68. heckler August 16, 2010 at 1:09 pm #

    this is the most horrible, painfully excruciating fiction i’ve come across in a long time. it’s almost like Mr. Kunstler was trying to make himself seem silly. in case anyone wondered whether there was a positive correlation between skill at non-fiction writing and skill at fiction writing, they don’t anymore. truly excruciating dude. very very funny.

  69. Qshtik August 16, 2010 at 1:23 pm #

    Jim’s weekly blog essays are a far better display of his writing talent than this Hebron excerpt lets on.
    I don’t see The Witch of Hebron bumping Moby Dick off the hundred greatest books of all time list though it might make for a nice beach-read during these waning weeks of summer.
    The excerpt, I think, exposed something of Kunstler’s character that we already pretty much knew – that he yearns for earlier simpler times: when rooms were wall-papered, women had dressing tables and the master of the house had a “chore-man.” When men wore riding breeches and might refer to a woman’s looks as “handsome” without getting slapped in the face. When a woman had an “abundant bosom” not a great set of boobs.
    More specifically, on the writing, I thought it was lame that within 4 inches of type one intruder was described as wearing a leather helmet leaking coyote fur while on another intruder a spray of blond hair leaked out from under an american flag do-rag.
    More amateurish even was the line I’m not leaving my wife alone with you gorillas. Pulleeez!
    Lastly, I’m guessing Jim fantasizes himself as Bullock, old but still athletic, lopping heads … perhaps as payback for Daniel Pearl even though “the Nutmeg Gang” weren’t Muslims.

  70. thomas99 August 16, 2010 at 1:27 pm #

    Nothing but a trashy, grade B novel. Stick with the social commentary, Jimbo. You’ll be a better man for it.

  71. yogijoe August 16, 2010 at 1:51 pm #

    Sounds like Rob Boogie hater has a big ‘ol crush on Jim. Boogie has such a charming way of expressing his affection. I’m waiting with bated breath for the next installment.

  72. PRE August 16, 2010 at 2:39 pm #

    “…separating its owner from his life so efficiently that his brain was able to behold his own death for several seconds before he too crashed to the floor.”
    It seems that JHK hates American’s taste for NASCAR and Disneyland, but he’s got their taste for silly gruesome revenge fantasies down! I could see this scenario telegraphed from the very first sentences.
    At least it was a break from the weekly gloom and doom but if the rest of the novel is as obvious as this count me out.
    Mr. Kunstler has some interesting things to say about the state of this country’s physical infrastructure, but I fear his glee at the coming “post-oil” horrors is off putting. Cheap oil has caused much harm, but it’s also allowed me to experience great beauty such as the Trevi Fountain.
    This fanatical desire to see the end of the oil-driven world is very much akin to religious fanatics desire to see the end of the world (period) – and is almost as dreary. I don’t doubt the coming years will require much restructuring of how we live (and for the better), but I doubt that we just happen to be living on the cusp of a new Dark Age.

  73. Anville August 16, 2010 at 2:52 pm #

    “You look very handsome tonight”???
    Would anyone born in the 60s or later ever say that to his wife?

  74. The Mook August 16, 2010 at 3:04 pm #

    Wow. Steven Segal would laugh at this script. Jean Claude Van Damme or Sylvester Stallone might be interested.

  75. lbendet August 16, 2010 at 3:10 pm #

    Thanks for that Wagelaborer
    When I worked for Time Inc. back in the 80’s, I was training someone in picture research. As I was about to show her outtakes of a shoot in El Salvador, I was suddenly shocked to see a pile of childrens’ heads piled on the floor.
    The photographer who took those shots later described his experiences there and attributed that act of brutality to right wing forces.
    Needless to say I didn’t hand over the pictures to the trainee, but that really illustrates the real hell on earth that wars bring on. That’s what keeps me up at night when I think of the dissolution of society.

  76. The Mook August 16, 2010 at 3:14 pm #

    I’m sure most NASCAR fans with tattoos could flatten your gay literary ass. Why don’t you pick on someone your own size like Truman Capote. If he were still with us i’ll bet he could write little sonnets like yours.

  77. Cash August 16, 2010 at 3:33 pm #

    Re last week’s posts on who vacates what country
    This is one of those things where, in practice, might makes right.
    I’ve had discussions with people that have impeccably liberal credentials, that are anti Israel, that think that Israel ought not to exist, that the formation of that country was a great crime, that think that Israel oppresses and abuses Palestinians.
    So I ask them questions like what would you have done if your whole family, aside from yourself, was murdered in a death camp. What if you were liberated from that death camp as a louse eaten, miserably sick, nearly dead, 100 lb bag of bones? Then how would you look at the issue of Israel?
    Then I ask them if Israel has no right to exist, what about Canada? We have hundreds of thousands of aboriginals living as glue sniffing drunks in shithole reservations out in the middle of nowhere. They have no means of self support out in those places, they can’t hunt anymore as most of the huge herds of animals are gone. So what about them? If Israels’s treatment of Palestinians counts as a terrible crime, what about that of Aboriginals here?
    Then I ask if they would support a UN sanctioned Aboriginal state here in southern Ontario? Isn’t it fair and just that they, as non-Aboriginals, should give up their property seeing as it’s on stolen land? When do they think is a good time for them to abandon their houses to the rightful Aboriginal owners?
    I ask them what do they think is the appropriate level of violence that should be applied against them by Aborginals seeking to reclaim what they see as rightfully theirs? Why is war not justified? How about a warning to get out of their house in 24 hours followed by a hand grenade through the door or rifle shots through the windows?
    Do they think that ethnic cleansing by Aboriginals on the new Aboriginal state is justified? Given what was done to Aboriginals would anyone blame Aboriginals if they took revenge on white people like us?
    People here tend to be very vocal in their condemnations of Israel but they don’t see that what applies to Israel applies even more to Canada. Jews at least have roots in that place that go back 3,0000 plus years. What about us in this place?
    And what is Israel? It’s a sliver of land in the middle of nowhere, the size of the greater Toronto area and roughly the same population. And half the world is in an uproar over it? What’s Israel compared to the robbery of two continents? Israel is nothing, it’s a chickenshit issue in comparison. Not even.
    There’s an old saying that if you point your finger three point back at you so, in my opinion, these stringently politically correct liberals should shut the fuck up on the issue of Israel if they don’t want international organizations rooting around in their own backyards looking to point fingers and assign blame.

  78. Bustin J August 16, 2010 at 3:49 pm #

    Blood gushed out of my stump when I read that JHK had released a new excerpt. I love it!

  79. shecky August 16, 2010 at 5:13 pm #

    “Blood gushed out of my stump when I read that JHK had released a new excerpt. I love it!”
    Some of Jim’s readers can write, even if JHK is a hack, in the arena of fiction. Jim- you are a fine essayist, but your excerpt here is worthy of Clive Cussler. I like a ripping yarn as much as the next guy. This ain’t it. I like pictures with my cartoons.
    Literary criticism aside, I see an interesting parallel drawn here between the Bullock estate and the state of Israel. Both are besieged by the have-nots, and are willing to kill in order not to be killed or starved. Whether this is right or wrong seems mostly to depend upon where one finds himself in the equation.
    I would kill to protect my family from marauders, and I would maraud in order to feed my family. Either way, I would love my enemy even as I slew him. If this seems contradictory to you, then you do not grasp the nature of life on earth.

  80. wagelaborer August 16, 2010 at 5:13 pm #

    You got a problem with gay people, Mook?

  81. wagelaborer August 16, 2010 at 5:16 pm #

    I take that very seriously, lbendet.
    Knowing the slaughter done in my name, with my tax dollars, is sometimes unbearable.
    I’ll bet that didn’t make it into the “news” magazine, Time, did it?

  82. Smokyjoe August 16, 2010 at 5:51 pm #

    While many of you slug it out over what the US may or may not be doing overseas, here’s a different and more personal issue:
    How many of you responding to JHK’s little home-invasion-kickass chapter HOPE for a quick collapse so you can kick some hairball’s ass?
    There’s a thread of macho every week in the comments here that makes me chuckle. What would happen the Clusterfuck readers if things don’t go down under Peak Oil with a bang, but slither down with a whimper into a Soylent-Green sort of lousy future?
    That’s another possibility under Peak Oil. We’ll stew in a warmed up climate, life will gradually degrade, living standards tumble, government remain in place but be less and less effective except for brutal and sudden exceptions.
    We’ll not shove our chests out and be manly because it won’t happen fast enough. We’ll hang with our families and crumbling localiies and make do as best we can in a declining time.
    I think that more likely than some apocalypse followed by manly men and handsome women fighting off the hairballs.

  83. Smokyjoe August 16, 2010 at 5:52 pm #

    BTW, that line from Bullock is probably JHK’s clever put-down on the NYT Reviewer who, in part, dissed World Made by Hand for it’s “handsome” women.

  84. lbendet August 16, 2010 at 6:02 pm #

    I take that very seriously, lbendet.
    Knowing the slaughter done in my name, with my tax dollars, is sometimes unbearable.
    I’ll bet that didn’t make it into the “news” magazine, Time, did it?
    It sure didn’t!! Something from the shoot that was far more palatable made it instead. Those were the outtakes. It was viscerally shocking to me when I saw them.
    I agree that we have so little awareness of what goes on in our name and that we are paying for it an abuse in itself.

  85. catman306 August 16, 2010 at 6:29 pm #

    Mr. Kunstler’s fiction of the future is lacking (in this excerpt) the effects on climate change to his fictional landscape. Changes in our environment will necessarily preclude a return to 19th century agriculture with a few of our more modern devices thrown in where appropriate. No one will no what crops will grow where or when to plant them. That information has, in the past, been derived from experience and record keeping. As the climate fails all of that accumulated information becomes as useless as list of Egyptian pharos from 4000 years ago. Studying this new climate will lead to few useful predictions because climate has entered a chaotic stage. Strange weather this year in one geographical location will move somewhere else next year. The same with ‘normal’ weather. If a crop depends on predictable climate for 150 days and there turns out to be little normal climate, how are you going to grow food?
    That’s the way it used to be, but what do we do now?
    But I enjoyed the excerpt and will read more.

  86. littleplanet August 16, 2010 at 7:02 pm #

    The very first furious debate I’ve ever tracked here – most entertaining.
    I must say I side decidedly with Mika – based a little on gut-feeling and mostly on common sense…
    (and laughed out loud reading the misconceptions about what is owed, stowed, and future woes…)
    Furious debates (just like in dysfunctional families and magic shows) can often deflect the focus on the real important issues…hide the truth, fool the sensibility…perhaps this doesn’t matter so much if a good time is had by all.)

  87. Jim/PA August 16, 2010 at 7:12 pm #

    The implied sexual encounter (OK, maybe he gave her a nice massage) was a bit overplayed…more like Spillane than Hemingway.
    Maybe that’s your groove, but IMO it could be toned-down a bit.
    The rest wasn’t too bad…and of course I’ll buy the book when it’s published. There is a vacuum forming in the compelling world you created.

  88. wagelaborer August 16, 2010 at 8:18 pm #

    You agree with Mika about what -Social Security?
    Based on a gut feeling?
    Let me explain where your gut got its feeling.
    The right wing has been putting out disinformation about Social Security for years now. They say that it’s bankrupt. They say that the trust fund has already been spent, and therefore isn’t owed. They say that the Baby Boomers don’t deserve retirement money.
    Listen closely! Is that what your gut is saying?
    Because it’s all wrong, as Asoka pointed out.
    Social Security was a pay-as-you-go system from 1935 to 1985, when Ronald Reagan and Alan Greenspan announced that the Baby Boomers would have to pay for the current SS recipients AND be the first ones to prepay their own retirement.
    Conveniently, the extra money that they started collecting from the workers (up until a certain cut-off point, when better paid workers no longer pay the tax), was put into the general budget to make it look as if Reagan’s tax cuts for the rich didn’t create as much debt as they did.
    But, the Baby Boomers and everyone since 1985 have been paying for the retirees and widows and orphans straight out of our payroll taxes PLUS the money in the trust fund.
    There is now over 2 trillion dollars in the trust fund and the first Baby Boomers retired last year. It will take 20 years before the last Baby Boomers retire, because the “generation” covers 20 years.
    So Baby Boomers will be paying for other Baby Boomers for 20 more years, at which point, let’s face it, most of the first ones will be dead.
    What’s more, the most babies ever born in the US were born in 2007, not during the “Baby Boom”, so there are more than enough to pay for retirees.
    To say that the US government can default on its own citizens is to be breathtakingly cavalier about both debts and government.
    The Wall Street gamblers who drool over the prospect of getting their hands on that money may lie to the little people on the littleplanet, but they aren’t fooled.
    When their gambling debts got out of control, where did they go?
    To the US government! For a bailout! The same government that you think isn’t capable of paying its own debts.
    Try to think with your brain and not your gut.
    You may get better results.

  89. helen highwater August 16, 2010 at 8:55 pm #

    If a bunch of guys show up here to rape me or my daughter or granddaughter and steal our stored food I will shoot them. No qualms about it at all. My pacifism stops at the gate to my property.

  90. James Patrick August 16, 2010 at 8:56 pm #

    Nice piece of fiction. One of the purposes of literature is to get people thinking and this selection seems to have done just that.
    I do think some of the comments reflect an over-politicized readership that forgets that Bullock is a fictional character created by JHK, not JHK himself. Some of his other characters might have acted differently. Some might not have lived in such a way as to make this gory scene seem almost inevitable. But, Bullock does act in a way that reflects his values and status.
    Again, fun piece of writing. I can’t wait to finish the pile of books I’m on so I can read the whole book.

  91. Ryder August 16, 2010 at 8:58 pm #

    I don’t at all buy most of the criticisms of this excerpt. Anyone with half a brain realizes that Kunstler is going to deliver more than a Mad Max shoot ’em up. It’s nonsense to pretend otherwise.
    Actually, I am pleased to see that there will be some meaningful violence in the sequel. There needs to be, and not merely to sate our desire for gratuitous slaughter, but rather to force the characters to confront difficult circumstances and make tough decisions.
    I enjoyed the first book, but the plot line often exempted characters (particularly “normal” characters) from making hard decisions in a world that could no longer afford the modern version of our judicial system, much less the ability to sanction criminals as we do now. A world made by hand can’t afford to impose lengthy prison terms, or legions of probation officers, or even electronic monitoring and assorted treatment programs.
    But it can afford summary execution…and slavery, for that matter.
    What if modern tools are no longer on the table, but you’d still like to maintain some modicum of civilization? Or, maybe you get to the point where you don’t care anymore, and begin to see the concept of due process as something of an empty gesture, mere window dressing before the inevitable. Why waste the time? That seems to be what is happening with Bullock, member of the bar, at least to an extent. It’s clear he has a solid grasp of due process, but it is becoming a joke to him.
    It’s an important issue, and one that needed to be addressed. Glad Jim got around to doing that. I’ll be ordering soon.

  92. ian807 August 16, 2010 at 9:12 pm #

    The scene is nicely written and compelling. Mr. Kunstler rightly depicts the home invaders as stupid, because anyone who wasn’t stupid would have torched the place, or noticed the size of the population and gone on to easier pickings, or created a diversion emptying the buildings before they went in. If there were enough people in the raiding party, siege tactics might have worked, particularly if some castor bean extract (i.e. ricin) or diseased animals were added to the local’s water supply. Mr. Kunstler’s plot, alas, doesn’t take into account the last few millennium of warfare (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_warfare).

  93. mika. August 16, 2010 at 9:31 pm #

    If the Social Security scam was sound the government mafia would be poisoning the US population to die of cancers at age 50.

  94. helen highwater August 16, 2010 at 9:34 pm #

    The way you grow food if you don’t know what kind of climate you are going to have in any particular year is that you plant lots of different things. You plant drought-resistant crops, crops that can stand “wet feet”, cold-tolerant crops, heat-tolerant crops, etc. In other words, you hedge your bets so that hopefully some crops will survive no matter what the weather does. This is why it’s so important to save a wide diversity of seeds. Of course, if your entire homestead with all your stored seeds and food and planted crops gets washed away, as has happened to the folks in Pakistan, you will need a strong network of friends who will feed you until you can get something else figured out.

  95. mika. August 16, 2010 at 9:37 pm #

    @asoka: “The funds are backed up by real gold bars in Fort Knox”
    There’s no gold at Ft. Knox. If there was, the gov mafia would allow an audit of that gold. They don’t, and they won’t.

  96. Baybars August 16, 2010 at 9:46 pm #

    Looking forward to the book coming out! I wish there had been more about personal security in World Made by Hand so this excerpt seems to fit the bill. The number one issue in any collapsing society is personal security. A stash of survival supplies is worthless if three guys with razor wire bats can take it from you in your sleep.
    Still, this excerpt seems a bit overdone. Why kill all the guys at the end? The future will be all about brutal practicality so it wouldn’t make sense to waste that potential labor force by killing the whole gang. Sure they should kill the leader (or mutilate him and send him on his way), but the rest of the gang is too valuable as labor to waste. I mean, do you know how much work non-fossil fuel based agriculture requires? So I would at least offer the followers the chance to become fellow serfs on the manor.
    Want a look at the future? Then just look to medieval Europe. See you all there!!

  97. mika. August 16, 2010 at 9:51 pm #

    @ AUGUST 16, 2010 9:31 PM should read:
    ..would NOT be poisoning..

  98. asoka August 16, 2010 at 10:17 pm #

    Mika said: “There’s no gold at Ft. Knox. If there was, the gov mafia would allow an audit of that gold. They don’t, and they won’t.”
    Mika, your paranoid and extreme anti-government erroneous beliefs are simply bullshit.
    There’s no gold at Ft. Knox. If there was, the gov mafia would allow an audit of that gold. They don’t, and they won’t.
    Here are the facts, Mika:
    The United States has a Bullion Depository in Fort Knox, Kentucky. There are currently 147.3 million ounces of gold stored there and the only gold removed has been very small quantities used to test the purity of gold during regularly scheduled audits. Except for these samples, no gold has been transferred to or from the Depository for many years.
    The gold is held as an asset of the United States at book value of $42.22 per ounce. The Depository opened in 1937; the first gold was moved to the depository in January that year. The size of a standard gold bar is 7 inches x 3 and 5/8 inches x 1 and 3/4 inches and it weighs approximately 400 ounces or 27.5 pounds.
    SOURCE: https://www.usmint.gov/about_the_mint/fun_facts/?flash=yes&action=fun_facts13
    Your right-wing libertarian corporate-sponsored Tea Party paranoid assertions, which you make as if they are fact, but do not document, should embarrass you.
    But then, you can say with a straight face that you are an Israeli citizen, a secular Jew, and that you and most other Jews don’t give a shit about Jewish laws or rabbinical literature, but they do celebrate Christmas!
    Give me a break Mika. It was fun debating you for a while, but you have lost all credibility …
    While I provide exact numbers and cite my sources, you point to rants like Eric Andrews and the Tea Party paranoids who parrot Republican talking points.

  99. networker August 16, 2010 at 10:24 pm #

    Amen sister, to both your comments!

  100. mika. August 16, 2010 at 10:45 pm #

    @asoka: “There are currently 147.3 million ounces of gold stored..”
    Ok. At $1200/ounce that’s roughly $177 billion. That’s less than the AIG bailout, and about 7% of the $2.5 trillion you claim the gov has. Where’s the other 93% of the missing money?

  101. Harmon August 16, 2010 at 10:58 pm #

    Human life is sacred? How absurd! It certainly is no more valuable than that of any other vertebrate. Or for that matter, any decent sized tree. And once TSHTF and truly does, human life will become valueless. Some of the obese might make good biodiesel feedstock, but that, of course, would require their death to give them value.

  102. cowswithguns August 16, 2010 at 11:03 pm #

    There’s a difference between an oppressed group of people on a reservation that is hundreds or thousands of square miles — people who have the ability to travel freely within a very big country — and a group of people crammed into a ghetto in Israel with no ability to move around within the small country that is oppressing them.

  103. progressorconserve August 16, 2010 at 11:06 pm #

    If You Plan to Use Weapons for Survival
    you really need a plan – a true story
    Wow, people, what an amazing discussion thread. We’ve got the pacifists and the sword fighters at each others throats. And that’s hyperbole, of course, can a pacifist even raise his voice?
    As I have stated, my home backs up to National Forest in the N Georgia mountains. I would not want to live here without access to a large variety of weapons – for a variety of purposes.
    And, certainly, pacifism is a valid lifestyle choice, especially in a *civilized* area where the “rule of law” is a 911 call away and police patrols are always nearby. Realistically, I don’t live in an area like that. And I believe in being as prepared as possible, for as many eventualities as possible.
    Because I am certain, in my heart of hearts, that survival is superior to *”non-survival??”* for as long as I can be of service to others, my God, and my planet.
    But some of my neighbors may be pacifists. That is fine by me, truly. I mean – so far – they do not issue you a firearm when you move to Georgia and force you to use it. 😉
    But my pacifist neighbors are safer AND able to live in an isolated area with fewer worries, because *most* of my neighbors are armed. Potential intruders do not know who is armed and who is not so they, logically, have to assume ALL homes are armed – so they have to leave everyone unmolested.
    It’s not a perfect system, but it’s the one we’ve got up here – and in large rural sections of the US.
    I grew up with shotguns. I’ve been fortunate to have some specialized weapons training, but a pump shotgun remains my weapon of choice for home defense.
    But a weapon is only a tool that works as part of a system. We have a LOT of tools in our system. My absolute FAVORITE is my large outside dog. He has many jobs. Keeping the deer out of the garden and off the flowers and fruit trees is vital, and so is keeping the night predators from eating the chickens.
    Because a healthy flock of chickens should be a part of any TLE strategy – if you have any little land at all. And my dog has killed some predators. But that’s my responsibility, not his. He is acting UNDER MY ORDERS. 🙂
    Because of the dog, and other elements of our security *system* we *never* keep weapons loaded inside the house. But some nighttime marauders led me to load the 12 gauge about one week ago, and keep it loaded, at night, right beside my bed.
    My primary shotgun holds 5 shells. For specific reasons the first two contain bird shot, followed by two projectile rounds called “rifled slugs” followed by one last load of buckshot.
    And on this loaded shotgun hangs a possibly tragic story – with a humorous twist. But this post is already too long, so I’ll finish the story later.

  104. mika. August 16, 2010 at 11:08 pm #

    Hmm, no. They are free to go to any arab country or any country in the world that wants them. You want them, you can have them.

  105. asoka August 16, 2010 at 11:15 pm #

    Mika asks: “Ok. At $1200/ounce that’s roughly $177 billion. That’s less than the AIG bailout, and about 7% of the $2.5 trillion you claim the gov has. Where’s the other 93% of the missing money?”
    Don’t be dense, Mika.
    The remaining gold reserves are held in the Philadelphia Mint, the Denver Mint, the West Point Bullion Depository and the San Francisco Assay Office, also facilities of the United States Mint. The “missing money” is backed up by gold… and I’m going to tell you a secret most people don’t know, but the Masonic Freemasons, or was the Lyndon LaRouche guys, anyway they told me:
    A thousand times more than that is in Fort Knox is stored in Area 51, and the Bilderberg guys are keeping an even greater amount. It is USA gold but they get to use it, in collaboration with the Council of Foreign Relations and the Trilateral Commission and another group so secret I cannot reveal their names, but it is them who are the real world leaders and they all are related to the Jewish bankers in Europe and the House of Hapsburg (formerly the European Council of Princes) who in turn are in contact with extraterrestrials who are also storing some of the gold that backs up the USA currency. Now you should have no doubts, as I am speaking your language.

  106. asoka August 16, 2010 at 11:21 pm #

    “My absolute FAVORITE is my large outside dog.”
    I live in an area where dogs are also used that way. Turns out dogs love meat. Sometimes, dogs eat some meat with a special treat in the meat. The special meat is given to them by strangers in the neighborhood, and then the dogs turn up dead.
    Big weakness about dogs: they love to eat meat.

  107. mika. August 16, 2010 at 11:22 pm #

    Well, I’m not an American so it’s not for me to worry or keep the faith in the SS scam. I’ll leave that to you.

  108. progressorconserve August 16, 2010 at 11:26 pm #

    And double WOW, WOW
    Mansur was cut into pieces, but not for gold. Mansur was chopped to pieces because in the state of ecstacy he exclaimed Ana al Haq “I am the truth”. He was executed in public in Baghdad
    This is what happened to a “Brother Muslim” because he said, “I am the Truth” in public.
    I have been looking for a way to explain why Islam is a harsh religion, because it developed to control Life in a harsh land.
    I do not believe I can do better than the quote given above – for making that point.
    And apologies…I know all this *religious talk* is annoying to MANY posters. I tend to agree with that viewpoint. Just couldn’t let this teachable moment pass without comment.

  109. cowswithguns August 16, 2010 at 11:32 pm #

    I’ll say it before and I’ll say it again: The Jews indeed needed a homeland following the atrocities of Hitler, but that homeland should have been Iowa (or Wisconsin, or Minnesota, whatever).
    The point is, there’s a lot of productive, valuable land in the US and no traditional Arab enemies wanting to do you in.
    But, a self-fulfilling biblical prophecy fucked up that plan.
    Now we have a situation in the Middle East that is a pain in the ass, no matter whose side you’re on.

  110. mika. August 16, 2010 at 11:42 pm #

    Seems to me, the traditional enemy trying to do us in are the anglo-american imperialists. These callous swine financed Hitler and Stalin and they’re now financing Hamas, Egypt, Jordan, Saudia, Turkey, Pakistan, etc. You want to be of help, stop arming the islamo-nazis, and get the fsck out of the Middle East.

  111. progressorconserve August 16, 2010 at 11:43 pm #

    You are correct, Cows. Then add in the fact that the Germans lost the war – while killing a bunch of Jews – and the Arabs were German allies.
    One thing I have always wondered about the Promised Land, though.
    That land is absolutely RINGED by lands in all directions that have vast wealth in the form of petroleum.
    Yet, not one single drop for Israel.
    I do believe the God of the Old Testament has or had a Heavenly Sense of Humor.
    And note to CFN – I post this comment with light-hearted intent…. To try to lighten Monday’s grim mood on the thread.
    Guess that could work??

  112. asoka August 16, 2010 at 11:51 pm #

    Scam, Mika?
    I have never known a single social security check to not arrive. In a scam people get ripped off. That ain’t happening with social security.
    You should, as an Israeli, be concerned about Israel imitating Hitler, by engaging in collective starvation of a civilian population, a crime against humanity for which Israel will be held responsible.

    The Israeli blockade of Gaza has led to a steady rise in chronic malnutrition among the 1.5 million people living in the strip, according to a leaked report from the Red Cross.
    It chronicles the “devastating” effect of the siege that Israel imposed after Hamas seized control in June 2007 and notes that the dramatic fall in living standards has triggered a shift in diet that will damage the long-term health of those living in Gaza and has led to alarming deficiencies in iron, vitamin A and vitamin D.
    The 46-page report from the International Committee of the Red Cross – seen by The Independent – is the most authoritative yet on the impact that Israel’s closure of crossings to commercial goods has had on Gazan families and their diets.
    The report says the heavy restrictions on all major sectors of Gaza’s economy, compounded by a cost of living increase of at least 40 per cent, is causing “progressive deterioration in food security for up to 70 per cent of Gaza’s population”. That in turn is forcing people to cut household expenditures down to “survival levels”.
    “Chronic malnutrition is on a steadily rising trend and micronutrient deficiencies are of great concern,” it said. SOURCE:http://bit.ly/1wCKqU

  113. mika. August 16, 2010 at 11:57 pm #

    There is no blockage. There’s only the requirement that shipments into Gaza be inspected prior to entry. This can be done in Israeli ports or Egyptian ports. As to your characterization, you’re a serial liar and a jihadi shill, so one would expect nothing less from you.

  114. asoka August 17, 2010 at 12:06 am #

    “I have been looking for a way to explain why Islam is a harsh religion”
    Have you been equally diligent is looking for a way to explain the barbaric massacres of humanity in the Jewish story as told in the Old Testament.
    Apologies to the MANY posters who are annoyed by this religious talk, but progressorconserve brought it up and I remembered lots and lots of Bible verses about extreme violence in Jewish history, and I know progressorconserve would not intentionally single out Muslims while excusing Jews.
    As per the JHK excerpt with beheadings:

    “This day the LORD will deliver you into my hand, and I will strike you down, and cut off your head; and I will give the dead bodies of the host of the Philistines this day to the birds of the air and to the wild beasts of the earth; that all the earth may know that there is a God in Israel, Then David ran and stood over the Philistine, and took his sword and drew it out of its sheath, and killed him, and cut off his head with it…. And David took the head of the Philistine and brought it to Jerusalem; but he put his armor in his tent. And as David returned from the slaughter of the Philistine, Abner took him, and brought him before Saul with the head of the Philistine in his hand.” (1 Samuel 17:46

  115. Baybars August 17, 2010 at 12:09 am #

    Nixon cut the last link between gold and the dollar in 1971, so how exactly are the liabilities of the US federal government (including social security payments) “backed” by gold? Do you really think that the Treasury will sell gold to cover deficits in SS (which have begun this year)? Will I be able to get gold in exchange for my federal reserve notes in 30 years when I retire? At what price? I’m curious…

  116. cowswithguns August 17, 2010 at 12:13 am #

    The US has done some shady stuff — like, as someone pointed out above, financing the contras in Latin America — but there’s no doubt that the US has provided a lot of funding and military knowledge to Israel.
    It’s a bad situation either way in Israel.
    Two observations about the situation:
    (1) Just because you’re paranoid doesn’t mean they’re not after you.
    (2) Two wrongs don’t make a right.
    In other words, my sympathy and condemnation go out to the state of Israel.

  117. mika. August 17, 2010 at 12:13 am #

    Extreme violence was commonplace in those times. Jewish history and experience is no different than that of others. The difference is that today Jews do not feel compelled to listen to “religious authorities” and repeat this kind of violence. And that is a big difference when compared to what goes on in the Islamic world.

  118. asoka August 17, 2010 at 12:19 am #

    Mika said: “There is no blockage. There’s only the requirement that shipments into Gaza be inspected prior to entry. This can be done in Israeli ports or Egyptian ports.”
    Sounds so innocent: inspections, that’s all. But you are clever in the way you word things. Children are dying because of those “inspections.”
    A UN survey in 2008 found more than half Gaza’s households had sold their disposable assets and were relying on credit to buy food, three-quarters of Gazans were buying less food than in the past, and almost all were eating less fresh fruit, vegetables and animal protein to save money.
    The Israeli military operation in December and January 2009 disrupted food aid transfer and distribution significantly, as well as causing what the UN FAO estimates at $180m of damage to the agricultural sector.
    According to the World Health Organization, one third of children under five and women of childbearing age are anaemic.
    SOURCE: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7545636.stm

  119. mika. August 17, 2010 at 12:21 am #

    @COWSWITHGUNS: “The US has done some shady stuff..”
    What do you mean has done? You thieving murderous criminals are ongoing stronger than ever. Why are you in Middle East? Get the fsck out. Everywhere you go, you seed war, destruction, and mayhem. Get the fsck out! We don’t want you here.

  120. progressorconserve August 17, 2010 at 12:22 am #

    Sure, if we’re having a Religious Barbarity Contest it would be the Old Testament by a comfortable margin.
    I said that last week.
    But the underpinnings of the Koran are harsh – that’s my point.
    Poor old Sufi dude gets carried away, says, “I am the Truth,” and they KILL HIM for it.
    What a Harsh religion – product of a Harsh land.

  121. cowswithguns August 17, 2010 at 12:30 am #

    OK, hell, “is doing” shady stuff. I’m the last guy you’ll hear say we need to stay in Iraq for 100 years.
    By the way, your comment is similar to something I imagine elicits from the lips of poor Palestinian children daily.
    Anyway, despite my criticism, don’t take me for a guy who wants Israel out of the Middle East. I don’t.
    It’s, sadly, too late for my Iowa plan.

  122. mika. August 17, 2010 at 12:31 am #

    There are people in distress all over the world because they mismanaged their economy. Gaza is a classic example of government corruption and theft. That’s their problem — not mine and it’s not Israel’s.

  123. asoka August 17, 2010 at 12:31 am #

    Mika said: “The difference is that today Jews do not feel compelled to listen to “religious authorities” and repeat this kind of violence. And that is a big difference when compared to what goes on in the Islamic world.”
    You are lying again, Mika.
    Eye for an eye is still being practiced by Israel in 2010.
    In fact, there is a conscious policy to hit back harder than you are hit to teach a lesson. So not only does Israel repeat the violence, they intensify it through their “quick-retaliation” policy.
    Israeli deterrence strategy, adopted after the Gaza offensive, to retaliate immediately and strongly to rocket strikes against southern Israel. Previously, Israel sometimes waited weeks or months to react.
    “The shift in strategy is to hit hard to show that Israel is not going to sit quietly while its cities are attacked and that those who attack will pay a heavy price,” Fighel said.
    But representatives of an armed wing of the Popular Resistance Committees, which claimed responsibility for the mortar strikes, vowed to respond to Israel’s attack with more violence.
    SOURCE: http://articles.latimes.com/2010/jan/09/world/la-fg-gaza-violence9-2010jan09

    My apologies to others who are annoyed by these religious posts, but Mika is lying and I am providing proof that he is lying.

  124. progressorconserve August 17, 2010 at 12:34 am #

    Ozone and other Atheists,
    I feel your pain guys. This Clusterfuck sucks!
    O3, you asked that we state how a religious view can help in TLE. I’ve tried to show how my sustainable farmer Granddad used his Christianity and the Brothers and Sisters in the Church within walking distance – to help him do it.
    On a practical level, whether you *BELIEVE* in God or not – religion can aid survival.
    That’s about the best I can do for you.
    Tonight, Mika and A are going about demonstrating how religion can probably Kill humanity and would be a nasty component of TLE in the US.
    Apparently, that’s about the best they can do.
    Wish I had better news!

  125. asoka August 17, 2010 at 12:38 am #

    Theft and corruption is something Israeli soldiers know about:
    Engaging in collective punishment of the Gaza population is a crime against humanity, and Israel will be held responsible for its own actions.

  126. asoka August 17, 2010 at 12:41 am #

    Mika, at last we agree on something when you say: “Why are you in Middle East? Get the fsck out. Everywhere you go, you seed war, destruction, and mayhem. Get the fsck out! We don’t want you here.”
    I assume you also mean the BILLIONS of USA taxpayer dollars and weapons being given to Israel should be immediately suspended as well.

  127. mika. August 17, 2010 at 12:42 am #

    An eye for eye is a legal principle. A damn good one, in my opinion.
    As for your islamo-nazis, the proper response to an act of war is to declare war and unleash the full consequences thereof on the warring party. Israel has yet to do so. I would not maintain such restraint.

  128. asoka August 17, 2010 at 12:45 am #

    Sorry Progressorconserve, but when you say: “Tonight, Mika and A are going about demonstrating how religion can probably Kill humanity” you are wrong.
    I am agreeing with Mika when he says this: “Why are you in Middle East? Get the fsck out. Everywhere you go, you seed war, destruction, and mayhem. Get the fsck out! We don’t want you here.”
    I’ll see his withdrawal of USA troops from Middle East and raise him with an immediate cutoff of USA economic and USA military aid to Israel. After all, Mika himself said the USA is broke. The USA doesn’t have money to be giving to Israel, according to Mika.

  129. progressorconserve August 17, 2010 at 12:50 am #

    I’m gonna take the liberty of speaking for you. If and when you see my response in all the “static” you can straighten me out if you do not agree.
    Mika says
    As for your islamo-nazis, the proper response to an act of war is to declare war and unleash the full consequences thereof on the warring party. Israel has yet to do so. I would not maintain such restraint.
    Add in Mika’s attitude as an Israeli national – couple together some nuclear weapons – I do believe we could have ourselves a WWIII.
    what a clusterfuck
    Both these guys are full of it
    I will try to speak no more of religion this week.
    Good advice for us all!

  130. asoka August 17, 2010 at 12:50 am #

    Mika said: “I would not maintain such restraint.”
    Yes, you would use restraint, or you would lose all USA economic and military aid. Whether you like it or not, Israel is part of the world community and cannot do whatever it wants to do.
    The only reason you are engaging in such macho talk is because you don’t have the decision-making power. If you had such power, you would quickly learn its limits.
    But your bravado is a good example of how the “religions of the book” are fanatical extremists who would destroy millions for their beliefs. Completely morally bankrupt is what you are.

  131. mika. August 17, 2010 at 12:54 am #

    All weapons deliveries and all aid to all parties should stop. The anglo-american SIS-CIA-MSM war propagandists inciting hate and war need to be exposed for what they are. These blood vultures have been feasting on our blood for far too long.

  132. asoka August 17, 2010 at 12:58 am #

    ProCon said: “- I do believe we could have ourselves a WWIII. what a clusterfuck. Both these guys are full of it. I will try to speak no more of religion this week.”
    ProCon you started all this religion talk this evening. I am just drawing Mika out so everyone can see his pathological violence, his psychological desire for murderous revenge, and his absence of any moral or religious values. He sounds more like an Israeli nationalist more than anything else who sees everyone outside Israeli borders as a threat and is willing to starve children and engage in collective punishment.
    One thing you say ProCon that I agree with is this: “I do believe we could have ourselves a WWIII.”
    Unless people like Mika are stopped we will have a WWIII. Eye for an eye is what he believes in and he doesn’t care if we all die in the process.

  133. cowswithguns August 17, 2010 at 12:59 am #

    They are coming for your Social Security.
    Man, if only those angry town hallers who were yelling “keep your hands of my Medicare” would say that about Social Security when politicians start talking about using it as gambling money for Wall Street.

  134. asoka August 17, 2010 at 1:02 am #

    Mika said: “All weapons deliveries and all aid to all parties should stop.”
    Hey, Mika, we are on a roll.
    Once again I agree with you, and I will raise you one: no parties should be allowed to have nuclear weapons. Any party with nuclear weapons should undergo a supervised inspection leading to nuclear disarmament.

  135. mika. August 17, 2010 at 1:03 am #

    The anglo-american imperialists have been deliberately stuffing the world with TNT because that’s what they do. They make money making and selling the weapons, and they make money blowing up the world and then getting companies, countries, and resources for pennies on the dollar. They did this in WWI, WWII, and they’re doing this in preparation for WWIII.

  136. Ryder August 17, 2010 at 1:07 am #

    Cowswithguns:”I’ll say it before and I’ll say it again: The Jews indeed needed a homeland following the atrocities of Hitler, but that homeland should have been Iowa (or Wisconsin, or Minnesota, whatever). The point is, there’s a lot of productive, valuable land in the US and no traditional Arab enemies wanting to do you in.”
    Well, this takes it, definitely face in palm time. Why on earth, why on God’s green earth, do Jews deserve to carve out their own country in Iowa? What nutty, insane sort of mind could think such a thing?
    *Hey, here is some nice land. Sure, it doesn’t belong to us, and other people already live here. They have their own institutions that have been built up over many generations. But guess what, we “should” have it, so it’s ours!! After all, only white people live here. Screw them! They would never reist, after all, it’s just Iowa.*
    Love the sentiment, and what could possibly go wrong? The fact that you covet what others already have, while rather disgusting, is historically normal. But the fact that you seem to believe that you could do such a thing without creating a whole host of new enemies is most assuredly abnormal. Most sane people understand that when they, through one means or another, displace another people, eventually those people are going to fight back. Shocking, I know. Who’d a thunk it?

  137. asoka August 17, 2010 at 1:07 am #


  138. progressorconserve August 17, 2010 at 1:10 am #

    And Wage,
    Horrendous information about the Central American barbarities.
    I have no idea how Reagan et al have had the Teflon to pull that off through the years. I hope you know how I feel about Reagan/Bush/Bush by now.
    Unfortunately Clinton/Obama aren’t looking a *whole* lot better.
    All we can do is try to move it forward to something.
    Think a change from the two party system would help?
    I do believe I am through posting for the evening.
    On a lighter note, I do believe A & M are PERFECT for each other. I can picture them descending the levels of Dante’s Divine Comedy continuing this argument to infinity and beyond.
    And Asoka, you are a BALD FACED LIAR.
    ProCon you started all this religion talk this evening
    The tenth comment on the thread at 9:41 you took off yammering about Jewish beheadings. Look it up. It is there for all the CFN to see.
    Of course I’m sure you will have a convincing proof that it is not.
    OH, I’ll do it for you…you talked religion in the MORNING…now it is evening.
    You know some people actually try to read the thread.
    I do enjoy my scroll button.
    And tonight I’ve help to perfect the operational definition of clusterfuck.
    C’est la guerre.

  139. asoka August 17, 2010 at 1:12 am #

    Come on, Mika, you are so close to naming who they are. Please tell us. Which anglo-american imperialists have been deliberately stuffing the world with TNT because that’s what they do? Name them, Mika. I know you know who they are. Don’t practice restraint now. Blow ’em out of the water.

  140. Vision Cube August 17, 2010 at 1:15 am #

    Since I’m 6’ 3” 215, with long curly jet black Irish hair and cobalt sky blue eyes I’ll take your attempted Truman Capote insult as a compliment. Don’t believe me? Come out to the wild ,wild west sometime and see for yourself. Just don’t bring your wife–she won’t like realizing what she’s been missing.
    I think I met a Mook clone at a HS reunion a few years back. Disbelieving his own eyes, he tried yanking ‘the fucking rug’ of the top of my head.

  141. San Jose Mom 51 August 17, 2010 at 1:23 am #

    Please tell me the rest of the story!

  142. mika. August 17, 2010 at 1:26 am #

    All you have to do is check who sits on the board of directors and who owns the majority shares and bonds. Anyway, I did name them. Check the other thread.

  143. asoka August 17, 2010 at 1:28 am #

    Asoka posted about fear using the illustration of Mansur (Muslim on Muslim violence) in the morning August 16, 2010 11:02 AM
    Nothing else on religion was posted until the evening when you called Islam a “harsh religion” in the evening, August 16, 2010 11:26 PM.

    Asoka said: “ProCon you started all this religion talk this evening” which is true.
    ProCon said: “And Asoka, you are a BALD FACED LIAR.” Which is false. I am not a liar.
    I said you started the religious talk “this evening” and that is true: you were the first one to start in this evening by criticizing Islam in the evening of the 16th.
    I wasn’t criticizing Islam. Neither was Mansur. He was smiling and could care less that his limbs were being chopped off, something you evidently still do not understand. Mansur welcomed it as a demonstration that physical “survival” is not the highest value. Do you understand now it was a positive story. Your spin is that it was “harsh”.
    BTW, you owe me an apology for calling me a liar, and since you are an “honest” poster, I’m sure you will do the right thing.

  144. mika. August 17, 2010 at 1:29 am #

    Why not the aid? Why only the weapons?

  145. cowswithguns August 17, 2010 at 1:38 am #

    Come on, get off the high horse. The American Indians had more of a right to reclaim America than the Jews did to reclaim Palestine. The Jews had been away for like 2,000 years; while the Indians just a couple hundred.
    I’m not advocating giving Indians all their land back, nor am I advocating destroying Israel. I’m just saying things could have been done better.
    Advantages of Iowa (circa 1946) over Palestine for Jews:
    (1) No traditional Arab enemies nearby.
    (2) More land, which is located in a massive country.
    (3) Fewer people to displace.
    (4) The move wouldn’t have given fire to the war-mongering Christian zealots who see the Jews going to Palestine as the step before Armageddon.
    (5) The US is a democratic country with a lot of resources.
    Please don’t deny the logic of the Iowa Plan.

  146. doofusboy August 17, 2010 at 1:38 am #

    There’s better post-pockyclipse writing in any issue of “Heavy Metal”, but the comments have been entertaining. I would like to hear from Kunstler if he features himself playing Bullock- a castrated male bovine – with plantation fantasies and a wife with geology (mmm, stony!) rather than topography. Hanging prisoners isn’t self-defense, any more than what Israel does; and I am only here because my parents barely survived the holocaust, as most of their relatives didn’t. Come for the rants, stay for the thoughtful comments, and the others.

  147. asoka August 17, 2010 at 1:42 am #

    BTW, PROCON, you owe me an apology for calling me a liar, and since you are an “honest” poster, WHO KNOWS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AM AND PM AND THAT PM IS EVENING, I’m sure you will do the right thing, PROCON.

  148. asoka August 17, 2010 at 1:44 am #

    I have no problems with humanitarian aid being allowed. It is only the weapons I want stopped.

  149. mika. August 17, 2010 at 1:50 am #

    It’s not humanitarian aid when it keeps a backwards society and a backwards culture trapped in backwardness tyranny and corruption.

  150. asoka August 17, 2010 at 1:53 am #

    Cows, I thought Israel should have been given Oregon, since Oregon has a particularly ugly anti-Catholic/KKK history.
    Oregon would have the added advantage over Iowa of giving the Jews a port city from which to prosper, a range of mountains and deserts, and lots of natural resources to exploit. Iowa? meh
    I love the Jewish people and would have loved to see them in Oregon. Think of all the brain power! We might not even be dependent on oil right now if we had given Oregon to the Jews, instead of creating Israel in the Middle East.

  151. doofusboy August 17, 2010 at 1:57 am #

    Most “humanitarian” aid is a backdoor handout to some commercial entity in the donor country, ineffective at improving lives in the recipient country and then evidence of why aid doesn’t work those people won’t get better so screw-em. Dambisa Moyo is black, so she must know.

  152. asoka August 17, 2010 at 1:57 am #

    Mika, I believe in freedom. I have no right to interfere with others doing charitable deeds, even if I believe it promotes dependence. I am free to not give to charities, but not free to interfere with others who want to give to those in need.
    Do you understand the concept of freedom, Mika? Or do you think you should be able to decide for others?

  153. asoka August 17, 2010 at 2:02 am #

    Mika said: “Anyway, I did name them. Check the other thread.”
    Which thread Mika? There are years of archived threads.
    Or better yet, instead of sending me to a thread, just name them again… even if only five or six names.

  154. asoka August 17, 2010 at 2:04 am #

    doofusboy said: “Most “humanitarian” aid is a backdoor handout to some commercial entity in the donor country, ineffective at improving lives…”
    If it is private aid funneled through charities you are not contributing to, why should you care if only a small percentage are helped. Some help is better than no help.

  155. mika. August 17, 2010 at 2:08 am #

    I find that kind of talk insulting and I wish you would stop. Jews went thru a lot of suffering, suffering unparalleled in the whole of human history, to maintain our national identity as Judeans and our connection to our land. We always remained and maintained a presence on our land, to best of our human ability given the circumstances. Even after the Roman genocides and evictions, we still returned and remained true. When the crusaders came, they massacred as many Jews as any of the others. And even after that, after the Turks and the British we continued and rebuilt. We’re not interested in being Iowas. We want our land, a land that was our land since it gave birth to our identity 3,500 years ago.

  156. cowswithguns August 17, 2010 at 2:16 am #

    But that would ruin Vlad’s dream of the Great Blond Empire.
    Oregon indeed has more resources that would help prosperity. But the reason I think Iowa makes more sense is because it is part of a vast expanse of similar geography. It’s not the most coveted part of the US, but it is fertile and the climate is tolerable (compared to the frigid Rocky Mountain states).
    Because of its uniformity, people in America would have been less likely to start a war over Iowa. As for Oregon, it’s too unique to not result in warfare.
    Besides, I think the Jews would have prospered whether in Oregon or Iowa.

  157. mika. August 17, 2010 at 2:18 am #

    The point is that they’re not being helped. They’re being retarded by not learning to be become self sufficient. Retarded by the islamic culture and practices. And you’re retarded for not understanding that. 🙂

  158. cowswithguns August 17, 2010 at 2:27 am #

    I am not denying the suffering of the Jewish people. The Holocaust was an unimaginable evil visited upon a group of people used as scapegoats. A homeland outside of Europe was definitely needed for the Jews.
    I just think it could have been done in another way. But, be that as it may, what’s done is done, and I don’t think abandoning Israel is the answer.
    What I’m proposing is merely a thought experiment, with no intent to offend.

  159. mika. August 17, 2010 at 2:45 am #

    The anglo-american imperialists deliberately poisoned the region. They encourage and financed arab nazism and the SIS-CIA-MSM propagandists deliberately incite and bait the muslims to violence. The anglo-american imperialists still work toward the final solution. They tried to struggle Israel in 1948 with an arms embargo while the arabs enjoyed the best of british and american arms. They constantly betray Israel’s military secrets to her enemies (See: USS Liberty); they constantly humiliate Israel; they constantly vilify Israel; and they constantly prevent Israel from properly defending itself.
    If you want to engage in a thought experiment, how about one that involves proper retribution towards the anglo-american imperialists?

  160. Baybars August 17, 2010 at 4:51 am #

    I have an idea for retribution against those evil Anglos.
    Why not attack the World Trade Center twice, send anthrax to key politicians and media, then blame it on the muslims and get the Anglo-American imperialists to fight a war with Islam which will bankrupt both sides! Oh, sorry, it’s already been done…

  161. asoka August 17, 2010 at 8:33 am #

    SIS-CIA-MSM propagandists?
    When it comes to propaganda your list came up short. It should be: SIS-CIA-MSM-Mossad-Shabak-Aman-Lekem propagandists.

  162. asoka August 17, 2010 at 8:36 am #

    Cows said: “Iowa is not the most coveted part of the US…”
    That is why I wanted to give them Oregon. Oregon is coveted. Jews are special. Jews are God’s chosen people and they deserve the best we have to offer.

  163. Jim from Watkins Glen August 17, 2010 at 8:38 am #

    Youch! Get a load of that hate mail on the home page. I guess the Kunstlers won’t be getting a Hanukah card from the Boogeys this year. I wear a moustache and am startled to learn that it is an indicator of pedophilia. Guess I better shave it off and stop reading post-peak fiction or the culture cops will pay me a visit. I wonder if Mr. Kunstler did something to piss him off or he’s just bitter from life with a name like Robby Boogey, which would make me cranky, too.

  164. networker August 17, 2010 at 8:40 am #

    Asoka, believe it or not, dogs can be quite easily trained. I know it’s radical and all, but you can actually train a dog to only eat from the owner’s hand! I know, I know, revolutionary stuff.

  165. asoka August 17, 2010 at 8:44 am #

    Mika said: “If you want to engage in a thought experiment, how about one that involves proper retribution towards the Anglo-American imperialists? ”
    Mika, given how the Anglo-American imperialists have behaved toward Israel (giving Israel billions of dollars and lots of arms, including nuclear weapons), do you think a pre-emptive nuclear strike against the Americans and Anglos would be justified?
    Don’t they need to be taught a lesson for how they have constantly mistreated and vilified Israel by giving Israel a homeland and so much aid? A nuclear attack on the United States would make them respect Israel and stop their constant humiliation of Israel, wouldn’t it?

  166. Alexandra August 17, 2010 at 8:44 am #

    I saw this movie at an art-house indie cinema at Bristol’s dockside… earlier in the year…
    Many entertainment seekers, sitting nibbling pop-corn, quickly vacated the theatre, only 30mins or so in….we guessed the footage to them was just too relentlessly stark and depressing… a movie that was no ‘fun’ at all!! Especially, when it came to scenes of how the more ‘resourceful’ survivors were feeding themselves…
    But here’s the irony…Moscow 2010
    Dare I say… photographs that make a cinematic fiction real….?
    The future’s out there….but bright, shiny and steel-n-mouse click snappy, with supermarket shelves stacked with multiple choice snackie-doodles….nope me thinks not…

  167. asoka August 17, 2010 at 8:57 am #

    Yeah, I heard about that dog training stuff. Something like: Sit, Down, Stay, Heel, Don’t eat other dog’s shit or any tantalizing meat you find lying on the ground.
    And since we will have lots of manufactured packaged treats in the Long Emergency, easily found on well-stocked grocery store or pet store shelves, and lots of time in the Long Emergency (when we are not defending the homestead from the marauders), it shouldn’t be difficult at all to engage in a thorough dog obedience training program. We could even hire professional “dog trainers” and attend classes with the dog during the Long Emergency. Right?

  168. The Mook August 17, 2010 at 9:17 am #

    Actually, I have no problem with gays. I use the word improperly and should use the word sissy. I also know the boys in the “gayborhood” in West Philly, and realize there are plenty who could kick my ass. The fact of the matter is, I am sick of Vision Cube’s literary classics on this site. Especially with his red logo to signify he is superior to the regulars. He also kisses Kunstler’s ass too much.

  169. asoka August 17, 2010 at 9:21 am #

    For those who missed having an essay by JHK to read, you might want to read Joe Bageant’s essay: UNDERSTANDING AMERICA’S CLASS SYSTEM
    Here is an excerpt:
    “The Republican and Democratic parties, major corporations, and manufacturers of US opinion came together in one of the greater bipartisan efforts in modern US history. There was nothing to do, they all agreed, but buy up $700 billion in “toxic asset” investments. “Otherwise,” they prophesied, the world would end. Meaning that the ongoing national Ponzi scheme they have always sold to the American people as the US economy, would finally crash.”

  170. The Mook August 17, 2010 at 9:22 am #

    Yeah, I’ll bet you know “marshall” arts too like the last bullshit artist.

  171. The Mook August 17, 2010 at 9:27 am #

    Oh, one more thing, who the hell goes to high school reunions? Guys that are 6’3″ and handsome? Dream on Fabio.

  172. ozone August 17, 2010 at 9:29 am #

    “O3, you asked that we state how a religious view can help in TLE. I’ve tried to show how my sustainable farmer Granddad used his Christianity and the Brothers and Sisters in the Church within walking distance – to help him do it.
    On a practical level, whether you *BELIEVE* in God or not – religion can aid survival.
    That’s about the best I can do for you.” -PoC
    Why, thank you! :o)
    That’s exactly what I was asking about, and you answered quite adequately, IMO.
    …On to other things. ;o)

  173. ozone August 17, 2010 at 9:47 am #

    As to the Mika-Asoka brawl over a patch of “holy” shithole, [mostly] waterless, desert/shrubland/waste:
    It will soon be a moot point as to further meddling by the mighty UsurpingSocietyofAsswipes. {BTW, how does trading pieces of printed paper (that represents nothing but pieces of printed paper) for the priceless energy contained in OIL work, anyhow?? Man, what an incredible SCAM.} Politically and socially (not to mention financially), we’re about to find we can no longer afford to support ANY of these frauds and extortions. Good luck to those who would continue these “policies”; why not just tattoo a big bullseye on your forehead? Then you can do “god’s work” firsthand. Perrrrrfect, eh?

  174. networker August 17, 2010 at 9:50 am #

    Asoka, just because you are unable to imagine it, doesn’t mean others cannot. Are you so incapable of imagining someone easily training a dog themselves, without classes?
    You seem to suffer from a severe lack of practical experience – perhaps you live in your head a bit too much and could use some time out on in the real world. You know the place, where your food is raised and grown, where the farmer meets the fox and the gardener meets the woodchuck.

  175. asoka August 17, 2010 at 10:02 am #

    ozone said: “Politically and socially (not to mention financially), we’re about to find we can no longer afford to support ANY of these frauds and extortions.”
    ozone, would you please do me a favor, since you are up on the economy and “frauds”?
    Please let me know the day any substantial number of the 53 million individuals who get Social Security and SSI benefits do not receive them.
    That is the day I will take seriously all the pissing and moaning and whining about how the government is broke and the economy is teetering and fraud and outright theft is so rampant.
    Hell, government is not even inefficient. You try keeping track of 53 million payments a month and see how you do. I praise the federal government for its efficiency in helping people out financially.
    The system is working as long as the checks can be sent out… and because the system is working, there will be no revolution, Tea Party or otherwise.

  176. Qshtik August 17, 2010 at 10:18 am #

    I, for one, am sick to death of this food fight between Mika and Asoka and a few others who have joined the melee. The conversation, for example, of whether the Jews should have been given Iowa or Oregon is such a total waste and it doesn’t even have the redeeming value of being amusing.
    Asoka, why don’t you give us all a break … take a break from CFN for the rest of the week and go make some mud bricks or something. And Mika, you should go inspect the eruv. I hear some pranksters snipped the wire last night. Take your time.

  177. asoka August 17, 2010 at 10:28 am #

    networker said: “Are you so incapable of imagining someone easily training a dog themselves, without classes? You seem to suffer from a severe lack of practical experience – perhaps you live in your head a bit too much and could use some time out on in the real world.”
    OK, here is a real world practical experience example: The FBI distracted a mobster’s guard dog by feeding it Big Macs over the course of several weeks.
    Conditioning the dog over a period of time is the whole idea behind training, so not only is it plausible to kill a dog with poisoned meat, I fail to see how you could prevent it, unless you follow the dog around and issue a “don’t eat” command when the dog encounters the meat. Few dogs are trained not to eat.
    During World War II the French Resistance had no trouble distracting guard dogs with a mix of dried blood and cocaine on a piece of cloth. It had the extra result of nullifying the dog’s scent-following abilities.
    Fact is, the vast majority of dogs will succumb to the temptation of a steak (or better yet, a nice slice of liver or a hunk of marrow bone) and most of the run of the mill Long Emergency guard dogs will succumb.
    And for those few professionally trained attack dogs, well the yahoos in JHK’s excerpt this week from the Witch of Hebron would probably not have any compunction at all about putting a bullet through a dog’s head, if the dog was inhibiting their normal activities.

  178. asoka August 17, 2010 at 10:33 am #

    Qshtik, we are discussing how Bullock’s estate in this week’s JHK excerpt from The Witch of Hebron could be protected, and dogs are the topic of discussion.
    In your life have you ever known a dog who would refuse a juicy piece of meat encountered on the ground?

  179. ozone August 17, 2010 at 10:43 am #

    Now, on to the highbrow literary critics of an excerpt that JHK was kind enough to grace us with:
    Why don’t you try to craft a compelling story; write it in a coherent fashion; get a publisher interested; get an editor to give a shit about it; THEN get said publisher to agree to actually print it (as they worriedly count beans in their head); and then we’ll talk about skills.
    (Some may have already have accomplished this. If you have, good on ya, you’ve got tome on which to perch. And I don’t mean “vanity publishing”, please.)
    Let’s look at some of the post-oil themes contained in this short slice.
    -Enjoyment of simple pleasures. ;o)
    -The importance of art/beauty to the care and feeding of the mind/soul. (However you want to “see” that.) What are the first programs to get cut in public education, hmm? What does that mean to our “nature”?
    -Those with good health will live to see “the grey”. (sorry, duh)
    -Things like light bulbs (that we hardly think about) will become rare. Where would the concentrated energy to manufacture such things come from? The tea is not mentioned for its’ robustness alone. Other than local herbals, real TEA has to be imported, thus making it a rarity.
    -Cornpone nazi marauders. Well folks, just what do you think might become of the children and grandchildren of the willfully and proudly ignorant? “Read, schmead; ya can’t learn nuthin’ from BOOKS. Let’s get back to playin’ “Grand Theft Auto”…”
    The most vicious will rise to the top of this particular shitpile.
    -Legal niceties go “by the boards”. Heck, we’re almost done trashing the ol’ rule of law as it is. Not sure TPTB quite thought the consequences of that through. JHK shows the end result of such short-sightedness.
    -Revenge is the strongest of all human “emotions”, containing love and hate in equal and potent measure.
    -Those who live with and respect the gifts of nature will have the best chance to prosper (does that mean to simply live? …mebbe), while the rest truly become scavengers. (No offense to actual vultures intended! I have a lot of respect for their cleaning up the place. ;o)
    -The importance of seasonal observances to bond the commons. (Remember that quaint ol’ commonweal stuff?)
    There’s other notes I’m missing, but that’s just off the top o’ the noggin, without a re-read.
    Add or subtract from this crude listing and you’ll find the relevancies to TLE.

  180. asoka August 17, 2010 at 10:44 am #

    Here is some real-world experience that illustrates how easy it is to defeat a guard dog:
    “The five-hundred dogs poisoned in Heidelberg are just the statistics from one local veterinarian, said resident Debbie Seinsch. Obviously, many more dogs are being poisoned than the residents know about. “From those 500 dogs, the vet could only save 40,’ she said at a recent emergency meeting of the Heidelberg Police Community Forum about the crime threat emanating from the mass-poisonings.”
    If dogs were not susceptible to poisoned meat, criminals would not be having so much success. So much for bow-wow protection in the Long Emergency.

  181. Cash August 17, 2010 at 10:53 am #

    A few years ago I saw a documentary program on a US television network about this social security trust fund.
    The documentary explained that the money collected for the fund was spent by the federal government and in return the federal government gave the trust fund IOU’s. There’s actual documents in filing cabinets saying that the Feds owe $X. Many, many of these documents. Bottom line is there is no “money” in that trust fund.
    So it’s not as if there’s cash in some bank deposit somewhere. At least that’s what was explained in that documentary.
    The Trust Fund is owed gazillions by the feds. Do you have faith that the federal govt will repay the money when it’s time? It’s a question, nothing more. I’m saying nothing about the actual financial viability of your social security system. The federal govt has tax money coming in. How it chooses to spend that money is another story. Whether it will be able to meet its financial committments is the question.
    So is it financially viable? Who knows. But don’t worry, you have company. Our own federal govt has been sprinkling pixie dust, saying for years don’t worry be happy, the Canada Pension Plan is full to the brim. I’ll bet is. Sure. A lot of people my age are saying that when it’s time to collect there won’t be the money to pay.

  182. asoka August 17, 2010 at 11:01 am #

    The economy is broken everyone here says. Nobody has any money. And then you see what is happening in the real world:
    “Home Depot’s quarterly net income rose to $1.19 billion, or 72 cents per share, from $1.12 billion, or 66 cents per share last year. Analysts polled by Thomson Reuters, on average, expected 71 cents per share.
    Revenue rose 2 percent to $19.41 billion from $19.07 billion last year. Analysts predicted $19.59 billion.
    Revenue at stores open at least one year rose 1.7 percent worldwide and 1 percent in the U.S. It was the third consecutive quarter of gains for the key measure worldwide and the second consecutive quarter in the U.S.
    Revenue at stores open at least a year is a key indicator of a retailer’s performance because it excludes growth at stores that open or close during the year.”
    And I’m not even going to mention Apple’s profits.
    These are signs of a bankrupt economy? CFN is looking more and more like an outlier… out of touch with economic reality.

  183. asoka August 17, 2010 at 11:13 am #

    Cash said: “A lot of people my age are saying that when it’s time to collect there won’t be the money to pay.”
    A lot of people were saying that 25 years ago (in the 1980s). A lot of people say a lot of things.
    The fact is Canada is expected to move up in the rankings of international economic performance in 2010, in part because other countries have been harder hit by the global recession.
    The fact is that the Canadian federal government does not default on its obligations to the Canadian people.
    It doesn’t matter what “a lot of people” are saying.
    Look at the facts. Canada does not default on its social obligations to its citizens.
    Let me know when any substantial number of Canadians do not receive their CPP, OAS, or GIS checks.

  184. networker August 17, 2010 at 11:27 am #

    Asoka HAHA looking up Dog Poisoning Instances In History online doesn’t do much for your “argument.” Again, you are utterly missing the original point: no one ever said dogs COULD not be poisoned. The point is, dogs are an excellent early warning, they protect farm animals, they hear and see things long before humans do, and a well-fed dog can be very easily trained to NOT accept anything (steaks and bones included) from anyone “outside the pack.” It is not as difficult as you apparently think. Dogs are also a deterrent. Any common burglar will tell you that they tend to skip the houses with dogs, since easy pickin’s (Asoka’s house) is just down the road.
    Asoka, you get your back up easily and are apparently unwilling to learn anything from anyone – do you just know everything already? Anyway I am fairly sure that I spend more time with my dogs than Zee Germans do, whether they lurk with steaks around the perimeter of my land or not. LOL!

  185. networker August 17, 2010 at 11:31 am #

    Oh, and if you guys want some real eye-openers about this thing we call the economy, read Chris Martensen’s Crash Course, here:
    Then Asoka can argue with you all about it because he won’t read it 🙂

  186. asoka August 17, 2010 at 11:44 am #

    networker, I read Chris Martensen’s Crash Course years ago when I was being seduced into believing the doom and gloom statistics being promulgated on CFN. I thought, “OK, I’ll wait and see, the economy shouldn’t make it till the end of the year”
    Maybe I should go back and re-read Chris Martensen’s Crash Course year after year, to inject a little fear-of-God (I mean gold) so I can remain paranoid enough to relate to the comments here.
    But after a while… well, you know the story of the boy who cried wolf. And now you know the facts about Home Depot’s profits.
    Seems like if we were in such dire straits, things should be getter WORSE. Instead, things are getting BETTER. Turns out daily life for 99% of the American public is far from what is painted by Cluster Fuck Nation.
    I wouldn’t be surprised if, in 25 years, Home Depot is still making profits and on CFN the comments are still predicting an “imminent collapse, maybe by Halloween, or Thanksgiving, or Christmas, or New Years (shades of Y2K), or Valentine’s Day or July 4th… year after year after year, the same predictions. The economy is wobbling, it is broke, we can’t sustain deficits, the national debt is staggering, it is a Ponzi scheme, a house of cards, or whatever this week’s metaphor is.
    And year after year, people keep spending, and companies like Home Depot and Apple keep making profits.

  187. cowswithguns August 17, 2010 at 11:50 am #

    Can dogs be trained to not eat a tainted juicy steak lying on the ground?
    That’s today’s question.
    I would say the situation is similar to the teen sex issue. Can teens be taught to not have sex? Yes.
    But the odds are on them having sex.
    On one hand, we have a few parent-teen conversations about how sex before marriage is wrong or whatever. On the other we have millions of years of evolution.
    What’s going to win most the time: A finely evolved hormonal calling or a few heart-to-heart chats?
    Same with dogs. Dogs have a ravenous appetite for a reason: They evolved to eat up while the food was there in preparation for the next famine
    I can’t imagine any dog passing up a T-bone.

  188. asoka August 17, 2010 at 11:55 am #

    LOL! And however refined Bullock is made out to be, I cannot imagine he would spend too much time training guard dogs to not eat when Bullock has such a handsome wife… millions of years of evolution and all.

  189. wagelaborer August 17, 2010 at 12:21 pm #

    About 2 weeks ago, I went outside with my trusty dogs, and found the remains of a chicken. I pointed at the feathers and told my dogs “Sic ’em!!!”
    What I meant, of course, was for them to track down the predator. They took off with great excitement. About 5 minutes later, here came one of my dogs back, with a dead chicken in his mouth. Apparently, he thought the ban on killing chickens had been lifted.
    Killing dogs is not beyond goons. They are doing it now in Iraq and in the US.

  190. networker August 17, 2010 at 12:27 pm #

    Cows, dogs don’t have a “ravenous appetite” if they are already well fed. And I feed my dogs raw meat all the time – (so they don’t need to get it from the French Resistance.) Your inability to imagine it has nothing to do with the facts – people can and do train their dogs in poison proofing, usually by teaching them not to eat or pick up anything from the ground. No one said it was something common – in fact most people are lazy dog-owners, hence Asoka’s triumphant display of “research.” Are you two looking for guarantees? Do you think one should never try to mitigate circumstances? I assume you are ok with concepts as strong neighborhood friendships, deer fences, .22s for woodchucks, cats to hunt mice, and bees to pollinate the flowers. So why not dogs? Are you so afraid of the future possibilities that you just want to shoot down every possible idea and tell us all it’s pointless? You both need to seriously spend some time in the natural world.
    And sorry Cows, but humans and dogs are quite different – your equating human sexual urge with training dogs is a bit odd and speaks a heckuva lot to your ignorance of either!
    Asoka, I don’t believe that you actually saw the Crash Course, or you would have much more insightful things to say about it.
    Ok, I am done with this asinine discussion. If you cannot even understand the worth of a well trained dog, then hey, I’m glad your house makes a better target than mine!
    bye all 🙂

  191. wagelaborer August 17, 2010 at 12:35 pm #

    Social Security is paid from worker’s wages and then given to the retired, widows and orphans, and the disabled.
    The social contract is that we provide for them now, and others will provide for us in the future, thereby making a stronger society, where no one needs to worry about starving to death in their old age. Are you OK with breaking a social contract, as well as a financial one?
    The trust fund is also taken from our wages, and has been since 1985. This money was borrowed from us, backed up with the full faith and credit of the United States of American government, and will be repaid.
    You, who claim to trust the US government so much, believe that they would default on their bonds? Would allow their own citizens to starve, rather than repay that which is owed?
    The right wing has bamboozled millions of people to believe that US debt does not need to be repaid.
    As I pointed out, Wall Street, while telling us that the US government is unreliable and we need to gamble our retirement funds with them, sure as hell went running to Uncle Sam when their gambling debts came due.
    Watch what they do, not what they say!

  192. wagelaborer August 17, 2010 at 12:45 pm #

    I kind of like Vision Cube’s contributions, even if I don’t care much about architecture.
    I like the way big shiny buildings look, but I believe that buildings should be built sustainably, with minimal energy usage.
    It’s not like he posts that much!

  193. wagelaborer August 17, 2010 at 1:02 pm #

    Thank you for the link, Cows. Here’s one that I’ve posted before, but it applies here, too.

  194. progressorconserve August 17, 2010 at 1:02 pm #

    Take it easy, Networker.
    I’m pretty sure Cows intended his remarks about training dogs to reject meat – and teenagers to reject sex – to be humorous on some level(s).
    I thought it was funny, anyway, Cows!
    In fact, I’ve had better luck training my dogs not to kill chickens than I had raising my sons not to have sex. Heck, MUCH better luck with the dogs than with the kids!!
    Wait…that may be because I think killing my chickens when I want them alive is always bad…and sex is NOT always bad. 🙂
    And interesting conundrum, huh?
    I’ve started following the advice of Wage – and sprinkle my comments with “smiley faces” – , because so much of the stuff I intend as humorous just tends to Pi** people off even more. 😉
    Anyway, networker, your major argument about training dogs is not with cows, it is with a gatekeeper on here. You are right and he is wrong, but that will not stop him from commenting over and over, proving repeatedly how wrong he actually is.
    I bet he’ll even comment on this.
    Nah, only if I elaborated on, “I am the Truth.”
    Maybe, I’ll get to that later. 😉

  195. wagelaborer August 17, 2010 at 1:23 pm #

    How is Social Security a scam, Mika?
    Does the government tell you to invest in it, promising to make you a million dollars by the time you retire?
    No. That would be the 401K scam.
    Social Security is a program in which working people pay for retired people, in return for which they can have the peace of mind of knowing that they will be taken care of in their old age.
    How is that a “scam”?
    I know nothing of your assertion that the government is poisoning 50 year olds.
    I can tell you that the medical-industrial complex is a billion dollar business, and that people with cancer are told that they should continue their expensive radiation and chemo treatments long after they are hopeless, because it’s profitable for the system.
    And that environmental causes probably have a lot to do with many cancers, not a lack of pink ribbon buying.

  196. Cash August 17, 2010 at 1:25 pm #

    Canada (like the US) has been very busy offshoring its manufacturing and its white collar occupations. I’ve seen the latter first hand. Go to any store around here and try to find something made here. Cannot be done. All made in China. After we’re finished gutting our economy I’ll let you know about our governments’ financial carrying capacity. So Canada doesn’t default? Money does not grow on trees, it never has.
    Let’s talk about particular cases. My wife had major surgery last year. She developed a surgical wound infection a few days after she came home, developed a fever, the wound started to leak a vile fluid and became all pussed up. We were told to call the surgeon who returned our call late in the afternoon. He told us to go to the hospital emergency ward. So we did. We waited until 3 am the next day in the emergency ward to get help.
    The problem of default is progressive, a steady deterioration, like, in my wife’s case, in emergency medical service. In my home town the local hospital shut down its emergency ward. When I was young my home town had half as many people AND a full service hospital. Now with twice as many people it shuts down a major medical service.
    When I was a kid doctors made home visits. Now in certain areas in the province (like my home town) you can no longer even find a family physician. This is the govt defaulting on its obligations.
    The deal is supposed to be this: you pay your taxes, you get medical care. Except for large areas the province isn’t keeping up its end of the bargain ie default.
    Our provincial govts are the ones charged with providing medical care. They are scrambling in the face of rising costs, an aging population to meet demand for medical services. They are in really rough financial shape, heavily indebted, with huge fiscal deficits.
    As far as Canada Pension Plan goes a number of years ago the federal Finance Minister (akin to your treasury secretary) raised everyone’s payroll contributions to the Plan and said unequivically that this would solve the problem of under funding. The man who actually ran the Plan (the Chief Actuary) was asked to fudge numbers in a report on the Plan after the new financial scheme was adopted to make the Pension Plan look healthier than it was. He refused to screw with the numbers and was turfed.
    So who do you trust, the politician who has to run for re-election, telling us what we want to hear or the actuary? I’m not an actuary. So you tell me.
    So tell me, do you trust actuaries? I know nothing about what they do. It’s all about the future, assessing risk. I do know accounting though. Mostly it’s about the past. And what accountants did was produce piles of worthless garbage which is why we got Sarbanes Oxley. So tell me are actuaries any better than accountants? Do they tell it like it is or do they tell you what you want to hear? I wouldn’t know.
    There’s an old guy I used to work with when I was a kid. He said “money is money and love is bullshit”. Words to live by.

  197. Cash August 17, 2010 at 1:46 pm #

    Do I trust the US govt? No. But I trust other govts even less. It’s a spectrum of shittiness, that’s all. Sometimes the US govt does well, sometimes they are evil, sometimes they are idiots. But I think that 80% of the world is a shithole run by butchers and I wouldn’t put the US govt in that 80%.
    Your social security is the same type of idea as our Canada Pension Plan. But according to that dcumentary the trust fund appears to be based on the US govt’s ability to cough up when the time comes. I’m not a US citizen so I have no skin in that game. More improtantly do YOU trust them? Whether you do or not determines how you live your life, how much money you spend, how much money you save BEFORE you retire. Once you’re old and decrepit it’s too late. I take it that you trust them. OK maybe you’re right about them.
    Personally I look at it like this: our domestic industries were offshored with my govt’s willing acquiescence thus depriving millions of people in of decent wages and depriving our govt of financial capacity. This went on for decades. If our govt is capable of doing something like that how much are they to be trusted? Does it actually sound like anyone in the civil service gives a flying you know what? What about politicians? Do you think I think they give a damn?

  198. San Jose Mom 51 August 17, 2010 at 2:14 pm #

    I know I couldn’t train my Beagle, “George” to not to eat stuff. His brain is in his nose. He’s a rescue dog; found wandering around the neighborhood, looking for love.
    He’s a good dog, snuggles next to me when I’m reading, doesn’t bark much — unless it’s the UPS truck. George is the sweetest, most gentle dog in the neighborhood, but he has no self control when it comes to eating.
    Years ago, there was this obnoxious husky that lived across the back creek, directly behind my next door neighbor. The owner, a macho man with a big truck, would go out and party and leave the dog out barking till 2:00 a.m. My next door neighbor would solve the problem by throwing Sominex-laced hot dogs across the creek. The dog would stop barking until 10:00 a.m. the next morning.

  199. Vision Cube August 17, 2010 at 2:17 pm #

    What is this “literary classics” silliness that Mook is rambling on about. Hey Mook, go read some real classics and discern the difference. There are no Twain’s, Joyce’s, Dickens’ posting on this site–apologizes in advance to Qshitk. As far as the red logo I have no idea how that came to be–perhaps I registered in such a way, I have no idea.
    As far as ‘Marshall Arts’ …yes indeed , especially in my youth. I learned 4 styles of Tai Chi–the Yang, Wu, Chen and Chen Pan Ling styles. Not only the slow arm waving stuff, but the fast paced Chen Style–Pao Chui. I also learned Hsing-I and Pa Qua. You brought it up and so I respond.
    Once upon a time in my youth the snotty-in-your -face type of belligerence that you are seemingly displaying would have been met with a slicing palm to the spleen. I enjoyed the crossing hands violence back in the day; I relished that first look of desperation , the panicky gasps for breath in an opponent about to be smothered under a tsunami of Neijia.
    You see Mook, I was extraordinarily angry as a youth. My father, a once very promising athlete who was a three-time state wrestling champion with scholarship offers across the country, took a turn for the worse when he was medically denied ( brain injury from a motorcycle accident) from participating in what he loved most– athletics. Although his collegiate athletic career was over before it ever started, that did not prevent him from becoming a boxer, and a pretty good one at that. He became a regional Golden Gloves champion and fought and lost to Ernie Terrell in Chicago. Terrell eventually went on to fight for the title against Ali back in the 60’s. And my father went on to become a sparring partner for Sonny Liston–he said he had the biggest hands he ever saw on a man,or so my grandmother passed on the observation. Oh,and he tried to join the Marines but was denied because he was color blind-or so I was told. My god the irony.
    From there it was all downhill for my father as he bled to death in prison from a bleeding ulcer on Christmas day 1967. It seems the medical staff was not around to treat him, you know, holiday dinner and all. Left to bleed to death like a dog on the very day he loved so much as a youth–again according to my grandmother.
    And for me it was a very tough uphill pull and I have never stopped seeing an endless array of uphill climbs looming over the next horizon. It never goes away, that shame. The shame of having such a father and the shame of denying him when asked if you were his son, even though the questioner knew who I was. And that fear. My mom, a single woman trying to raise two kids by herself and negotiate an oppressive male-dominated workplace was also bristling over with anger and frustration…well, she took it out on me too many times: “ You’re going to end up being just like him.” So I ran far away from the spirit of him, the good and the bad. I have never been arrested or in trouble with the law. The good that I disinherited being a courageous spirit not afraid to climb into any ring or onto any wrestling mat and stand toe-to-toe with an opponent, even Ernie Terrell or Sonny Liston. That fear of being him, it never goes away, it’s in the cells. But I could have used a large dose of the best part of him throughout the years.
    So I am a nobody, Mook. I was the white kid in the sixties who learned first hand about the father in prison experience so prevalent in minority communities. I am the lowest of the low, never mind the little red tag. I am “Son of Conn”, and believe me when I tell you, I am not proud. But…I am gone. Goodbye.

  200. Cash August 17, 2010 at 2:26 pm #

    You’re right there is a difference. But 500 years ago there were no European settlers grabbing Indian land and telling Indians what they could do, couldn’t do, forcing them to convert to Christianity, telling them where they could live etc. Indians had millions of bison to hunt on the prairies. They made a good living off them. Now there are none.
    I think what happened to the Indians is probably what happened to Neanderthal when modern sapiens came onto the scene 40,000 – 50,000 years ago. Neanderthal were shoved bit by bit into more and more marginal places by more technologically advanced people until they died out.

  201. Terry David August 17, 2010 at 3:17 pm #

    “Don’t let Lloyd Blankfein know that you’re spilling the secret that Social Security and Medicare have enough funds.
    Lloyd and his ilk on Wall Street want to add the Social Security money to the Wall Street CEO bonus pool.”
    Your words capture the true nature of those in power today. While the desperation and pathology of the gang that invaded in JHK’s excerpt is approachable on some intellectual if not moral level, the greed and pathology of the Blankfeins out there leave me speechless since theirs is not a position of desperate need or of powerlessness.
    They and those who pushed the euphemistically named “ownership society” (and we know who they are/were) should be treated to justice no less severe than those in JHK’s story!

  202. welles August 17, 2010 at 3:33 pm #

    U.S. and A.! I make fanny!

  203. The Mook August 17, 2010 at 3:41 pm #

    Wow. Now I’m really confused. Anyway, I have had enough of this site for a while. Seems to me that the posters on here don’t understand that the teams are the rich and the middle-class. Republican vs. Democrat and race and religion are not what is wrong in America, it is the great flaw in Capitalism called greed.

  204. asia August 17, 2010 at 4:06 pm #

    sick to death are you???
    yet days ago when i told you [ o alpha ] to DESTROY ASOKAFAIL you declined!
    now asokafail bites you the alpha in yr ass.

  205. asia August 17, 2010 at 4:07 pm #

    and commmies are altuistic?
    cuba is better?

  206. progressorconserve August 17, 2010 at 4:18 pm #

    SJ Mom,
    Dogs are really pretty amazing critters. Of course so are people.
    And I’d rather talk about TLE and dogs than, Das Jews, Der Natzis, en Götterdämmerung. On second thought Götterdämmerung and TLE could be much the same in der US of A – so never mind.
    So when you say,
    “I know I couldn’t train my Beagle, “George” to not to eat stuff. His brain is in his nose. He’s a rescue dog;”
    I understand. Some dog breeds are *brighter* than others. I owned a beagle once. Good dog, but with incredible single minded intensity about trailing rabbits.
    He wasn’t that bad about eating random food, but my neighbors have a beagle mix that can vacuum up edible trash throughout the 1/2 mile circle she patrols. She’s fat as a butterball, submissive to everything, and once came home with a ham bone almost as big as she was.
    She’s the one the French Resistance would get, if they started leaving cocaine in the meat around my house. That dog would be as high as Sigmund Freud in no time.
    Rescue dogs will surprise you. My primary outside dog is a rescue. He’s an Einstein about patrolling the “plantation” for marauders. As a rescue, he came to me with one bad habit that I cannot seem to break – That being a HATRED of the UPS truck.
    We had another rescue we adopted as a puppy. He grew up with the older dominant bitch we already had (no, no, not my wife – a canine) 😉
    Anyway, this dog grew up afraid of, seemingly, everything and everybody.
    Then we moved to the mountains with him and his personality broadened. One quiet evening I heard voices on the upper end of our driveway, out of sight of the house. I eased up there to see what was going on, with my timid rescue following me.
    It was three ol’ boys, checking the lock on my flatbed trailer and drinking a little beer. They saw me and it surprised them – I don’t think they knew I had built a house in their beer drinking spot. And I’m real sure they thought they had themselves a trailer to steal for later on in the week.
    So I stopped about 20 yards away, and all four of us were just sizing each other up – a little “stand-off,” if you will.
    All of a sudden one of them moved toward their car and my timid rescue dog started running toward the three of them, baying the loudest, deepest roaring bark I had ever heard him produce.
    That broke the stand-off. I raised my voice enough so they could clearly hear, “I DON’T BELIEVE I’D TRY TO PET THAT DOG – IF I WAS Y’ALL!”
    And the three of them piled into their car and took off at a fairly high rate of speed. We had to put that “timid” rescue dog down about a year after that due to a vertebral tumor.
    But I’ve never seen those three ol’ boys again. And my flatbed trailer is still stored up there where it was that very evening.
    Now, just to clarify, anyone whose ENTIRE TLE plan is a dog – IS A MORON! A dog is an important part of a working security *system* – no more and no less.
    And SJ, I’m still working on the fortunately non-tragic, yet humorous, story of the loaded shotgun in the house – maybe tomorrow.

  207. woodcutter August 17, 2010 at 4:34 pm #

    Good work James!

  208. San Jose Mom 51 August 17, 2010 at 5:00 pm #

    What is it about our dogs and UPS trucks?
    I think dogs have a sense about people that we don’t….kind of a sixth-sense about people that are evil. Your dog sensed that those guys were up to no good.
    My favorite George the Beagle story shows how sensitive he is about emotional travail. Years ago, my son had just spent an hour doing trig homework but from the WRONG PAGE. He was crying with rage at himself.
    Unbeknownst to us, George had stolen my daughter’s chocolate candy bars from her Halloween stash and buried them in the back yard. (If it looks like a bone…he buries it.)
    George went out and dug up an old chocolate bar and dropped it at my son’t feet. What a sweetie..George doesn’t usually share his food.
    I guess George thought that chocolate would cheer my son up.

  209. The Mook August 17, 2010 at 5:48 pm #

    Yes, Cuba is better. Better than Haiti. China will buy the world. Capitalists? I don’t know what altuistic is and I am not looking it up. Kill the rich, feed the poor. Enjoy the Earth. It’s beautiful other than all the dickheads. I know about 500 people in America. I’d say 50 of them I would call assholes. Being that there are 310 million people or so in the country, I’d say there are 30,999,950 more jackasses here that I don’t know. I should consider myself lucky.

  210. rocco August 17, 2010 at 8:06 pm #

    Greetings from once empire state:
    I have picked up many ideas about prep from all sorts of “end of the world books”. It gives you some creative insight about your prep plans, even like those of World War Zombie books. I have stored those emergency seeds in a can for 3 years, dark,semi cool cellar. Little garden experience about 50% of the seeds grew. The best were the variety of lettuce( especially those IT-alian kinds that the President eats, and the right wing fear) they grow until late fall, good source of vitamins. I bought 1 from each of the main online prep folks, The Ready Store, beprepared.com and that one from latoc, I think Nitro pak, all gave me 50% return of the seeds. Thats with no experience or any added fertilizer.

  211. catman306 August 17, 2010 at 8:21 pm #

    Helen Highwater, Thanks for the intelligent answer. Genetically Modified Crops are a big problem because they produce sterile seeds and can’t be used to propagate more food. It’s criminal that these crops have been introduced to poor areas of the world. People there will have to buy seed if they want to eat, but with what money?
    Did you know that a guy at ClimateProgress, Joe Romm, wrote a book called Hell and High Water, all about how climate will change with catastrophic weather events, like the one this week in Pakistan?

  212. ozone August 17, 2010 at 8:33 pm #

    “ozone said: “Politically and socially (not to mention financially), we’re about to find we can no longer afford to support ANY of these frauds and extortions.”
    ozone, would you please do me a favor, since you are up on the economy and “frauds”?
    Please let me know the day any substantial number of the 53 million individuals who get Social Security and SSI benefits do not receive them.” -Asoka
    Oops, sorry I didn’t get back earlier on this one.
    The “frauds and extortions” I refer to are foreign adventurism (meddling) and wars. Surely you would agree with me on those points! :o) (Who benefits? Right?)
    IMHO, SSI was/is a brilliant idea to keep older folks from the ravages of destitution, I only hope that those funds have not already been purloined. There are doubts/questions about that further up the thread. Also, the administration of that particular fund has an amazing efficiency of about 2%(?) overhead. (I think I’m recalling that correctly; not sure.)
    Anyhoo, SSI is probably the dreaded 3rd rail for politicos who call for its’ “privatizing”. Political suicide, mayhap? Older folks VOTE!
    …and I’ll let you know when someone misses a check (or, more assuredly, two), but if that should happen, I’m not so sure about the “inter-tubes” being viable either. ;o)

  213. ozone August 17, 2010 at 8:49 pm #

    The most solid, generous, loyal, honest people I have ever known in my life have been those who came from “up-against-it” backgrounds. Those are the folks I would trust my life and those I love with. IMHO, you have much reason to be PROUD, never ashamed. You have my applause and respect; never my pity.
    All the best from this small corner…

  214. Qshtik August 17, 2010 at 9:38 pm #

    Unlike the unimportant stuff at CFN that drives me nuts … like the careless writing of Asia, the pacificism of Asoka that will bear no fruit in any of our lifetimes, and the conspiracy theories of Hancock, Wage, Vlad, Mika and others, that they believe with a convert’s religious zeal because, as someone once said, the insane don’t know they’re insane … there are things happening to me and millions of others every minute of every day in real life that have actual potential to drive me insane.
    Today I wrote the following email to the top person at Family Medicine Group concerning their automated phone system.
    Dear Ms. Ortep,
    I have been a patient/customer of Fam Med for many years. I am a relatively healthy 69 year old male. A couple of years ago I was found to have high blood pressure and was put on 2 particular meds. I get those meds in 90 day increments from CareMark. As the end of my supply nears and I read on the bottle that “No refills remain” I go into a state of anxiety reminiscent of how I felt as a 10 year old facing a dental appt. I know the process of getting a new prescription is going to be a nightmare … and it IS, every time without fail.
    Last week with 9 pills left in each bottle I called CareMark and asked them to contact Fam Med to get new Rxs. They are more than willing to do this and in fact encourage their customers to handle the re-ordering of drugs in this way. And, if the system actually worked, it would be a boon to the customer … not having to get actual written Rxs and mail them in, postage, additional time, etc.
    But … and here is where I get to the point … NEVER has Caremark been able to get the appropriate info when they contact Fam Med. As a result, about 3-4 days after I have spoken with CareMark I will receive back a voice mail telling me that their efforts to obtain the Rx info have failed and I need to contact my doctor and get him/her to respond to CareMark.
    This is where the nightmare begins (If you’ve never read the book “The Trial” by Franz Kafka, I recommend it. It will give you some idea what it is like to deal with your Group’s automated phone system.) It is impossible, even after passing thru endless filters, to get to a point where an actual live human picks up. In one of those filters I am asked whether I want someone from the “silver Team” after which 10 doctors names are enumerated … or the “yellow team” and 10 more Docs are listed, or the “red team” etc.
    Now this is a joke since I couldn’t even say for sure who is supposed to be my primary physician. After a few visits with Dr. Beatrice 10 years ago they began to farm me out to one new rookie doc after another. Two names I recall were Khan and Choi but there were others. Then 2-3 years ago Khan left Fam Med yet he’s still named on one of those color coded “teams” in the automated phone syst.
    Then there is the further confusion that some other doctor(s) are the one(s) issuing the Rx to CareMark. Awhile back it was Dr. Howard and next time it was McGuffey. I have never even met these Docs. When CareMark called Fam Med last week I think they tried unsuccessfully to reach McGuffey but as I learned today McGuffey is on vacation and maybe that is why the Rx request fell in a crack.
    So anyway, the ball was now in MY court. I had to start calling and hope I could reach a breathing human who would then phone in my Rxs to CareMark. When one does this one gets to the last step where you are led to believe a nurse is going to pick up the phone but this is just wishful thinking. Another automated message tells you to leave your name, birthday, phone number, a detailed message, etc and someone will get back to you. To your credit there’s none of that BS about your reps being busy with other callers and how important my call is to you.
    I swear to you .. as many times as I have been thru this process I have NEVER gotten a return call the same day. This latest episode was no exception. So I called AGAIN this morning and knowing that I would reach the same deadend where the nurse is supposed to answer but never does, I decided I would just follow some other path thru the maze where I might get to a human. I thought about pretending mine was an “Emergency” situation but then said no, I’ll pretend I have a Billing issue. I did this and when I finally jumped thru all the right hoops a human answered. The first thing I did was confess that my call had nothing to do with Billing but I just HAD to speak with a human and could she please just forward me to some other human who could handle my problem. I figured there must be some internal set of phone numbers that Fam Med employees have access to so they can talk to one another. Surely they couldn’t be hamstrung by the same automated system that mere customers must endure or they’d never get any work done. Well, no, I was informed by Billing that they were just some outside service and had no numbers of any of the medical people who might help me. I was skeptical and asked if this Billing operation was merely a subcontracted service of Fam Med or were they, in fact, Fam Med employees though located elsewhere? The person I was speaking to refused to answer this question. Why this would be considered sensitive information, I can’t imagine.
    Back to square one. I started back thru the automated rat maze filter till I got to the point where the voice message says leave your name and number, etc and we’ll get back to you. I provided the required info in the most exasperated tone I could muster and FINALLY an hour or two later got a return call from Mariel on Dr Beatrice’s team. I gave her the Rx info and presumably she has called it in to CareMark. A half hour later Dr Beatrice called and we talked about the situation.
    Ms Ortep, you probably think I’m some retired kook with nothing better to do, but I challenge you to disguise yourself as a patient and attempt to negotiate the nightmarish maze of your phone system. See if you can speak with a human in under 24 hours.

  215. asoka August 17, 2010 at 9:57 pm #

    networker said: “And I feed my dogs raw meat all the time”
    networker, I know you don’t want to discuss this anymore, but I need to warn you as you seem to underestimate the seriousness of what is coming someday soon, maybe in one Friedman unit (that’s six months).
    When TSHTF you will not have electricity. The grocery shelves will be empty and there will be no meat there to purchase, if you have any fiat money.
    With no electricity you will not be able to store meat for your dogs in a freezer or refrigerator as they won’t be working.
    Without meat your dogs are going to be hungry.
    Hungry dogs do not make good guard dogs.
    I have been assured by CFN that all the things I have described are going to happen… soon… exactly when we don’t know, but before your dogs die of old age.
    This situation is serious. Millions are going to die, maybe Billions. Mika let me know the world rulers have it all planned.
    Hoards of looters are going to be doing all they can to rob you blind. I done heard it on CFN.
    There is no hope, no techno-miracle is possible, and it is fatal to be a pacifist, Kumbaya do-gooder. That is actually the worst thing you can do. You would be wiped out in an instant.
    You have to be prepared to kill people like they are flies. It’s either you or them. Self-defense is the justification to kill and survival is the highest value.
    What you need to do buy guns. Lots of guns. And ammo. Lots of ammo. And food. Lots of food, several years worth. I am only giving you this advice to help you the way CFN has helped me.

  216. mika. August 17, 2010 at 10:05 pm #

    @asoka: “Don’t they need to be taught a lesson..”
    Yes, they definitely do. And the longer they’re forced to live with the likes of people like you, the better that lesson is taught.

  217. asoka August 17, 2010 at 10:24 pm #

    LOL! Good one, Mika. Don’t worry, I will not stop.
    I will keep on teaching them a lesson until they understand Israel is Jewish holy land and the Jews are God’s chosen people.
    I will not stop until the world stops messing with Israel and accepts Israel’s occupation of all the lands Israel has gained through war.

  218. Qshtik August 17, 2010 at 10:24 pm #

    You have to be prepared to kill people like they are flies.
    Nice piece of sarcasm-lite.

  219. CynicalOne August 17, 2010 at 10:26 pm #

    Pssstt…They don’t WANT to talk to you. Not really.

  220. JD Moore August 17, 2010 at 10:28 pm #

    I don’t believe the author was having this band of ruffians merely trespassing. A prosecuting attorney could add assault with a deadly weapon, attempted burglary, forcible rape, aggravated assault, and associated conspiracy charges. A bit extreme on Mr. Bullock’s part perhaps, but it seem within his character. He is, supposedly, a benevolent dictator; he is not really, the Good Guy. The times are still tough; everyone already has eaten all the dogs, rarely a fond memory for all the characters.

  221. mika. August 17, 2010 at 10:28 pm #

    Don’t let your emotions cloud your vision. You are being played emotionally by people who are masters at this game. A so called conspiracy is only a conspiracy only to someone who is emotionally partisan. You are being fed the information that they want you to be fed. You need to be cognizant of this. It doesn’t matter how smart you are, if you’re emotionally blinded you will never see the truth. They know this, and they prey on that. You need to understand this.

  222. CynicalOne August 17, 2010 at 10:32 pm #

    I had wondered about those seeds.
    Thanks for sharing your experience.

  223. JD Moore August 17, 2010 at 10:39 pm #

    Mika, the USA was way in the hole back in WWII. It was coming out of a terrible economic depression. We were going to spend whatever it took to get rid of the threats that faced the people at the time. And the USA recovered. Now is the time that we find a different way to recover, one that does NOT depend on the “consumer economy” but on a producer-based sustainable economy.

  224. mika. August 17, 2010 at 10:45 pm #

    @ozone: “BTW, how does trading pieces of printed paper (that represents nothing but pieces of printed paper) for the priceless energy contained in OIL work, anyhow?? Man, what an incredible SCAM.”
    That scam is called the barrel of a gun. US dollar imperialism/gangsterism does not extent just to oil, it extents to practically every natural resource on the planet. Americans that are happy with this arrangement are little more than callous thieves. But in the end, corruption and thievery never pay. The corrosive effect of such behaviour always leads to complete destruction of such societies.

  225. JD Moore August 17, 2010 at 10:50 pm #

    upstatebob, they may have guns but ammo’s going to be hard to find. That was a point that the author brought out in “World Made by Hand.” Unless, one went back to lead balls like it was up until the time of the American Civil War, instead of explosive cartridges. They don’t exactly work in most, if not all, modern firearms.

  226. mika. August 17, 2010 at 10:51 pm #

    US society is so rife with corruption, and on so many levels, that I doubt any changes will be made before total collapse.

  227. Qshtik August 17, 2010 at 11:17 pm #

    Oh stop it Mika … your just being a noodge.

  228. JD Moore August 17, 2010 at 11:21 pm #

    catman306, There ‘s a mention at the end of “World Made by Hand” about the unusually hot summer. topping at 107 in the shade. If you’ve ever lived in the Capital District, you would know that is quite hot for the region.

  229. Qshtik August 17, 2010 at 11:23 pm #

    Don’t let your emotions cloud your vision. You are being played emotionally by people who are masters at this game.
    And thank goodness You, Wage, Hancock, Vlad et al aren’t.

  230. Qshtik August 17, 2010 at 11:24 pm #

    make that you’re

  231. Qshtik August 17, 2010 at 11:36 pm #

    In your life have you ever known a dog who would refuse a juicy piece of meat encountered on the ground?
    Yes, my wife’s cousin Paulette in Denver – you remember her – is a big dog person and has always trained them to be Vegans and fruitarians. None were ever poisoned yet, unaccountably, thay all died young ;o)

  232. Qshtik August 17, 2010 at 11:55 pm #

    Youch! Get a load of that hate mail on the home page. I guess the Kunstlers won’t be getting a Hanukah card from the Boogeys this year.
    Never looked at the Home page till now and didn’t know it contained a Hate Mail section. The Rob Boogey screed had tears rolling down my cheeks. JHK must be secure enough in himself to post such an email.

  233. myrtlemay August 18, 2010 at 12:09 am #

    Personally, I feel that Mr. Boogey deserves a good, old fashioned, bare-butt spanking for the rude remarks he makes about Jim Kuntsler.

  234. Qshtik August 18, 2010 at 12:15 am #

    Boogey deserves a good, old fashioned, bare-butt spanking for the rude remarks
    Sometimes rude is the name of the game around here.

  235. Qshtik August 18, 2010 at 12:27 am #

    It could not be more obvious – the floods in Pakistan were arranged for by the CIA. Word has it that Osama was vulnerable in a lowland area so a massive cloud salting operation was undertaken in an attempt to drown him. It is believed he and his henchmen escaped to higher ground using water wings. – Mika ;o)

  236. Qshtik August 18, 2010 at 12:47 am #

    Asoka, if you haven’t read the article already please read “Taliban, in a Bold Display, Order the Stoning Deaths of a young Afgan Couple” in today’s (8/17) NYT. The article says “People were very happy seeing this” Mr Khan maintained, saying the crowd was festive and cheered during the stoning. The couple he said “did a bad thing.”
    That Shariah law sure makes folks watch their P’s and Q’s.
    Your thoughts?

  237. mika. August 18, 2010 at 1:10 am #

    Qshtik: “It could not be more obvious – the floods in Pakistan were arranged for by the CIA.”
    I expect better from you.
    Stick to the facts and arguments that I presented. You know very well that the CIA installs dictators and authoritarian puppet regimes in latin america, the middle east, africa, etc. They do this not to promote liberty, democracy, human rights, but to realize zero cost resource extraction.
    As for Osama, I can tell you one thing for certain. If the US wanted him dead, he would be dead. The guy was using satellite phones in afghanistan. In afghanistan! Practically no one else would have access to that technology in that country. It was easy picking, and they let him go.

  238. mika. August 18, 2010 at 1:14 am #

    “It was easy picking, and they let him go.”
    So my question to you is why? Why would they do that, if everything they say is on the up and up?

  239. mika. August 18, 2010 at 2:17 am #

    How is Social Security a scam, Mika?
    It’s a ponzy scheme. And like all pyramid schemes as input declines the pyramid collapses. Oh, the gov mafia will probably still send people a check, but in real terms, it will be worth next to nothing.

  240. mika. August 18, 2010 at 2:18 am #

    Ponzi scheme!

  241. Eleuthero August 18, 2010 at 3:35 am #

    Honestly, Q., I think your story was more
    interesting than the excerpt of Jim’s novel!!!
    You also “plugged” into a mantra I’ve used
    on this site many times: “Kafka’s world made
    I have similar stories to yours like when it
    took me SEVEN phone calls to shut a brokerage
    account that had not been used for 15 years
    and which had fifty-six cents in it. The
    only tactic that worked … was mentioning
    that they would see a PROCESS SERVER if an
    eighth call was required. Indeed, I find
    that this works like a charm.

  242. rippedthunder August 18, 2010 at 8:14 am #

    For all the dog naysayers, training outside dogs not to except poisoned treats may be difficult. I agree. I have a yorky that has ears like a bat and cannot be surprised by an intruder, the little son of a bitch(i mean that literally) never sleeps as far as I can tell.When I move he is there. He is always at my side. I will have plenty of early warning. even without an electronic system.At least I will know if an interloper is about, unless of course the lowlifes can teleport themselves into my house without so much as a mouse breath of noise. I also have the kraut shepherds, but they stay downstairs and will probably require too much upkeep when the food runs low. http://www.flickr.com/photos/goomba112/?saved=1

  243. CaptSpaulding August 18, 2010 at 8:30 am #

    Hi Laura, I agree with you. Someone (Ben Franklin, I think) said “Those who beat their swords into plowshares often wind up plowing for those who didn’t

  244. lbendet August 18, 2010 at 9:03 am #

    I just read your comment:”You know very well that the CIA installs dictators and authoritarian puppet regimes in latin america, the middle east, africa, etc. They do this not to promote liberty, democracy, human rights, but to realize zero cost resource extraction.”
    You should read “The Shock Doctrine” by Naomi Klein if you haven’t already.
    During the cold war I used to say the Americans just want your wealth, otherwise they really don’t care what you think. The Russians want to change your DNA.
    Somethings stick in my memory and the lyrics of late singer songwriter from the 60’s Phil Ochs come to mind.
    “We own half the world, Oh say can you see and the name of our profits are Democracy. So like it or not you will have to be free. Cause we’re the cops of the world, boys, we’re the cops of the world.”
    It seems incomprehensible that the Bush administration would have shunted off the responsibility of getting Bin Laden to Afghani war lords. They allowed him to leave the country without backing up agents who asked for more help. They were told that resources were being moved to invade Iraq at the time…

  245. Qshtik August 18, 2010 at 9:46 am #

    I expect better from you.
    It’s the best I could dream up on the spur of the moment.
    BTW, I reserve the right to Q-spoof anyone I think deserves it.

  246. Qshtik August 18, 2010 at 10:05 am #

    I have a yorky that has ears like a bat
    Your pooch is cute as hell and really does have ears like a bat. Probably can hear a pin drop on the moon.
    The caption on one of your pics mentions Westfield. Westfield in what state? There’s a Westfield 15 miles from me in NJ. Then again, there’s probably a Westfield in every state in the Union.

  247. rippedthunder August 18, 2010 at 10:14 am #

    Hi Qshtik, Yea Jasper is a great dog, the smartest dog I have ever had, smarter then the shepards, which is saying alot. He also is the boss. That would be Westfield MA. I forgot to mention Jasper sleeps with one eye open as you can see in the second picture which in the link.

  248. Qshtik August 18, 2010 at 11:04 am #

    Jasper sleeps with one eye open
    When I went back to look at that pic I laughed my ass off. I hadn’t noticed the one eye open – one eye closed on the first go ’round.
    Are you the guy on the first bike shot, right under the one eye Jasper pic?
    Back in the day (mid-60s) I had a 900cc Harley Sportster. It was the last year they made kick starts. When that baby kicked back it could break your leg. I then went to a 750 Honda (rice burner) then I had 3 kids and sold the bike and that’s all she wrote.

  249. messianicdruid August 18, 2010 at 11:09 am #

    “Oh, the gov mafia will probably still send people a check, but in real terms, it will be worth next to nothing.”
    I have been searching for the quote by Alan Greenspan, given before Congress, that said practically the same, without luck. The purchasing power that remains if you get paid off is what matters; sending out checks is the easy part. The thirty or forty million people that have been aborted will also crimp the numbers paying into the system, on top of those who are not staying properly brainwashed. Exhibition of acceleration as what goes around comes around.

  250. shecky August 18, 2010 at 11:18 am #

    Remember all that nasty oil in the Gulf? All gone, right? Pass the shrimp, ma.

  251. rippedthunder August 18, 2010 at 11:30 am #

    Hey Qshtik, No pics of me. I was behind the lens. I am a BMW rider. Gotta love that german engineering. My bike has 158,000 miles on it. Not all mine . I bought it at about 120,000 miles in 1981!

  252. Qshtik August 18, 2010 at 11:54 am #

    Apologists for the uncircumcised dick – Wagelaborer and Asoka – will be glad to read an article titled “Steep Drop Seen in Circumcisions in U.S.” in the 8/17/10 NY Times.

  253. Qshtik August 18, 2010 at 12:12 pm #

    Big govt/welfare state advocates, Wagelaborer and Asoka, will be sad to read an article in the 8/17/10 NY Times titled “Denmark Starts Trimming Its Social Safety Net as Employment Slips.”

  254. Qshtik August 18, 2010 at 1:04 pm #

    Asoka, Tripp and others may be surprised to see that the Mosque-near-ground-zero issue is not going away and if anything is growing hotter. Yesterday’s NYT has a very pro-Mosque editorial (what else would you expect from the NYT) titled “The Constitution and the Mosque” as well as a long and pro-Mosque op-ed piece (what else would you expect from the NYT) titled “The Muslims in the Middle.” Apparently enough people do think the Mosque issue “means dick” that the NYT needs to bring out not one but two big guns on the same day to fight the naysayers.
    Of greater interest to me is the op-ed piece which explains that the force behind the Mosque project is a Sufi imam and that sufis don’t get along all that well with the many other strains of Islam who tend to be more radical and violent, not only vis a vis the west but toward their Sufi brethern as well. The gist is we (NY and the US, in general) might do well having Sufi allies within Islam.
    Somehow this line of reasoning doesn’t leave me feeling all warm and fuzzy toward the precepts of the Koran put in a positive light so ably by Asoka the other day. Further, for people fearful of a mini-911, it conjures the vision of a muslim bombing of the new facility rather than the seemingly more likely home-grown threat.

  255. asia August 18, 2010 at 1:25 pm #

    ‘It’s a bit like bullshit’
    if ever there was a BS story here its yours!
    fact: wolves flee people.
    question: how high were the fences? if them darkies were climbing them maybe he had some man eating ridgebacks to kill em. tales b,s..
    q..you alright? fighting yr hmo or whatever? interesting that yr ad hominem was directed at so many. yr job here?

  256. peakinterest August 18, 2010 at 1:50 pm #

    I think Bullock was being rather lenient. If I were in his shoes, rather than hanging the remaining ruffians, I would have directed my underlings to skin them alive and fashion their hides into kites. I would then fly the kites proudly above my plantation as a warning to other would-be interlopers. Nothing like hairy man-kites with nipples on them to ward off undesirables. Just my two cents, I have to bike off to work now. And in case you’re wondering, yes, I’m cracking wise.

  257. networker August 18, 2010 at 2:02 pm #

    Ok, so I caved and checked back today to see what ridiculous-ness you might post in reply to my simple suggestion that dogs might be a pretty good idea whether or not TSHTF. But apparently its such a radical notion for you that it unbalances you emotionally. Do you always exaggerate in this way? You seem a tad unstable.
    So thanks for the warning Asoka, but I actually don’t get my food from a grocery store and I already have “lots” of guns. This does not mean that I align myself with the ridiculous evil scary scenarios people come up with however, JHK included. Roving bands of dog-eating thugs is possible, I suppose, but not likely. I am actually very comfortable, whether or not any shit hits any fan, and whether we have electricity or not.
    We live on a small farm/homestead that we own outright, with combination electric/oil/and wood heat. We have access to adjacent land and permission to cut wood from it. We have bees that give us honey and beeswax; we raise rabbits and chickens, for both meat and eggs, and we slaughter them ourselves. We even raise mice for the indoor cats and worms for the chickens! We hunt deer and turkey, and fish in season. We have a huge garden where we grow almost all of our own fruit and vegetables (we do buy apples from a local orchard) which we can, dry, ferment, and preserve in salt, vinegar, and oil, kept our cold cellar. We can meat as well: chicken, soup, beef stew, meatballs, you name it. We grow raspberries, blueberries, blackberries, elderberries, and grapes, all of which we preserve either by jamming or making wine. I save seeds, and I have cold frames for greens in winter. We get raw milk and butter from a farm down the road. We get grass-fed beef occasionally from another farm down the road (dogs love the bones!)The only things I buy from stores are salt and spices, oil, and occasionally dried foods like rice and beans.
    Why do we do all of this? Partly because grocery food is poisoned and expensive. Partly because eventually we believe the dollar will be destroyed, and that infrastructure is crumbling. Partly it is because we like to live this way – it is healthy and honest work. We may or may not come to have starving people at our door, but no one can know the future, nor what kind of people they will be. Whatever your definition of “doomer” might be, there are middle grounds inhabited out here, in many ways you perhaps have not opened your mind to.
    So while all of this might seem silly to you, that is just fine with me. I know how fortunate I am. It takes some work, but I also made conscious financial and life choices over five years ago in order to make it all happen. Back in 2005-2006 it was websites (like this one) that warned of the coming real estate crash. Because we read and listened and educated ourselves, we intentionally sold our house in a more urban area, at the top of the market, making enough profit from it to buy this house later after prices fell. There can be good reasons to open ones mind after all.
    Asoka, if you want to stake your life and dependence on the status quo, that is your choice: go for it. Nobody is going to stop you. But blathering assumptions and on and on about other people’s choices only serves to antagonize people. It certainly doesn’t make you appear thoughtful or intelligent. Personally, I see no reason NOT to do what I am doing. This isn’t an either/or choice between total Asoka-style passivity and Mad Max. There are (clearly) more things in Heaven and Earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy. Please think before you make assumptions about people you do not know. If you don’t expend so much energy trying to convince others how wrong they are, you might get some actual peace. And so could the rest of CFN!

  258. CynicalOne August 18, 2010 at 2:18 pm #

    Ok kids. I need your help.
    I have submitted 2 posts on the same subject that have been held for review and then disappeared.
    My posts are harmless. I don’t get it. Are there some no-nos I’m not aware of?

  259. Qshtik August 18, 2010 at 2:26 pm #

    q..you alright? fighting yr hmo or whatever? interesting that yr ad hominem was directed at so many. yr job here?
    Asia, taking your remarks in the order they appear:
    . Yes, I’m fine.
    . The email about Fam Med’s phone system has zero to do with the outfit (Horizon Blue Cross Blue Shield) that picks up the tab for my health care, all but the co-pay.
    . What ad hominem? And who are the “so many” you’re talking about? Based on this and a couple other references to ad hominems over the past few weeks I get the impression you don’t understand what an ad hominem is. An example of one might be where I say something relevant and on-topic to you, usually in a negative way, and then I add “and besides that you’re ugly.”
    . Is my job here what? Do you mean do I think it is appropriate for me to be commenting on current events and other things in my life that I think others might be interested to read. Yes, but I wouldn’t call it my JOB .. it’s more like my hobby.

  260. Qshtik August 18, 2010 at 3:07 pm #

    We live on a small farm/homestead …
    Net, it sounds like you’ve got more good things going for you than Bullock or even Noah.
    Based on a current issue in my own life, where the replacement of a waterheater is becoming a saga … let me ask you: how do you heat your water for bathes, dishes, laundry and such? Gas? Elec? Wood? How would you heat the water if the shit hits the fan? Boiling water in a tea kettle to bathe sounds problematic.

  261. networker August 18, 2010 at 3:43 pm #

    Qshtik, I have a fond dream of purchasing a solar hot water heater next year, and I hope we can afford it because it seems a great way to go. (In a related vein, the subsequent fond dream after that will be to install a composting toilet.) Currently we use an electric hot water heater, but if power goes out for extended periods, we can heat up water on the wood stove. Summer is not a problem, as we can bathe and wash clothes (biodegradable soap) in the river nearby. Winter is another matter – would have to haul very large hot tubs of water to the bathtub in order to wash bodies/clothes. We are on a community well that has a very large holding tank, which in an outage allows us to flush a few judicious times, but another long term idea is to supplement the electric pump with a hand pump.
    I saw a great idea the other day for emergency situations, using an insulated cooler with a spigot, filled with heated up water, used for washing hands/faces/dishes, which would alleviate some of the inconvenience in the short run.

  262. progressorconserve August 18, 2010 at 3:47 pm #

    Q made a rather lengthy post about his troubles with his medical services providers.
    And he admitted upfront it was off the topic.
    And at first I thought maybe he was spoofing some of us and our long posts that he might not find interesting.
    But then – it led me to think about the US economy and the value of college – a topic many of us have been addressing.
    My youngest son finished college last November. He has been living in my basement, which has its negatives – but not all appalling, horrible negatives.
    Right after January 1st, this year, he started looking for work. It is indeed pretty grim out there. I have contacts, our families have contacts, but nothing worked out. He applied for hundreds of jobs – and did get some interviews, but again, no job developed.
    Along the way, he interviewed at a couple of temp agencies. Mid-February, one of the temp agencies came through with a temp job offer. We had a brief family discussion concerning whether he should take a temp job instead of a *real* job.
    My end of this discussion consisted of various paraphrased permutations of, “Hell yes you should take the job – mainly so you can quit hanging around in my basement all the time.”
    So he took the temp job. It was at the US offices of a Chinese company that distributes all over North America. He learned a lot in a hurry. He learned that his business degree gave him some theoretical background – but nothing can substitute for showing up, learning, and trying to be productive.
    Long story short, he got a permanent job offer from this same company about 3 months later. He’s got a decent salary, a corner office, even health insurance. He’s already flown to Mexico for business, which is a lesson in itself.
    Mexico seems to have a more dynamic economy than the US. My kid wants a new car, and I’ve offered to cosign – a courtesy I’ve given to both my sons.
    In calling new car dealers we have discovered that most dealers have an automated answering service and that is often necessary to enter a *phone answering digital maze* just to get to a car salesman.
    No wonder the US is in a recession/depression/double dip/thingy…

  263. Qshtik August 18, 2010 at 4:36 pm #

    Ok kids. I need your help.
    I don’t have an answer for you but I do recall that someone else had the same problem a few weeks ago. I’m pretty sure there is no moderator looking at the comments although once in a blue moon kunstler himself bans someone when he gets sick and tired of reading, for example, off-the-wall conspiracy theories. But there must not be any hard and fast criteria on that or Mika would have been long gone.
    My suggestion is to write directly to Kunstler and ask him. Below is his email address that I got off the Home page.

  264. CynicalOne August 18, 2010 at 4:52 pm #

    I guess I’ll try it again.
    Did you hear a popular teen-oriented retailer was offering free smartphones just for *trying* on a pair of their $24.50 jeans?
    Since when do you have to BRIBE teens/young people to try on a pair of jeans??? New to my lifetime.
    Recovery Summer indeed. LMAO!

  265. progressorconserve August 18, 2010 at 5:04 pm #

    Ozone wrote a very good critique of JHK’s posted book excerpt. I’ve linked to it, because it is worth reading if you missed it upthread.
    Ozone, were/are you, by chance, a literature teacher? I’ll bet your lit teachers *loved* you, at any rate. Mine never cared much for me – I’ll explain why in one more paragraph.
    And O3, your support for VisionCube was “on the money.” My own father was a tough compact brawler of a man in his early days. He fought lightweight in the army and saw some rough WWII combat service. I’m pretty sure he never did jail time, but the *rough edges* of his life stayed with him always – and also affected my life. I miss him still, even though he has been gone from this life nearly three decades.
    What VC wrote came from the heart. And I kind of like the little red box.
    Back to literary criticism, O3, you found all that cool symbolism that my teachers always wished I would see and talk about. Me – I just see a great story. In my mind an author rips out a tale and leaves it to the lit teachers to point out the symbolism that he put in accidentally or randomly.
    Plus, I’ve not read the book, so I’m at a disadvantage. But I think JHK has deliberately taken Bullock far, far back before some of the beginnings of Western Civilization.
    Was not the right to trial by jury established under English common law centuries ago? To simply summarily execute 9 trespassers without trial puts Bullock on some dangerous legal and moral ground. And since Bullock is a lawyer he knows that.
    (I was pretty cool with the three he killed in his *bedchambers,* because that is completely justifiable homicide.) And JHK spent some effort explaining how justifiable it actually would have been.
    But Bullock has a gratuitous sadistic streak. He gave breakfast and “interrogated” that prisoner in a manner designed to amuse himself and terrify the man. I knew “petty tyrants” like that as a child – boys who enjoyed pulling the wings off of flies.
    Of course, with a nod to politics, some say we just voted out a president with a mean streak who enjoyed blowing up frogs with firecrackers.
    That’s it; end of critique. JHK has excerpted out an excellent yarn! I’m looking forward to getting hold of a copy of the book.

  266. CynicalOne August 18, 2010 at 5:11 pm #

    Thanks Qshtik!
    I thought maybe it was because I didn’t include a link to the source, in my first post, which I then added to my second post, though maybe incorrectly. I dunno. (intentional misspelling, Q 😉
    Or maybe it was just my cynical remarks that followed. lol
    I see one finally slipped through, without actual mention of the retailer.
    Oh, who cares anyway…I gotta go watch Glen Beck!
    Is it Glen or Glenn? I always forget.

  267. San Jose Mom 51 August 18, 2010 at 6:07 pm #

    A phone for TRYING on a pair of $24 jeans???
    My goodness, those jeans are not nearly expensive enough to be “cool.”
    As the mother of a teenage daughter, a pair of jeans needs to cost at least $50, and they must already have worn and even threadbare in a few places. Not only that, the mom has to endure a trip to the mall and go into a “cool” store with poor lighting and headache-inducing loud music with feral lyrics (and it must be SCREAMED, not sung.)
    My goodness, you’ll be ready and willing to whip out your wallet and hand it to a young clerk with attitude…simply to get the hell out of Dodge.
    (recently returned from school shopping trip)

  268. lbendet August 18, 2010 at 7:04 pm #

    Some good news for a change. Combat Mission in Iraqi is over.
    Officially Operation Iraqi Freedom is over two weeks ahead of schedule.
    Convoys are on their way out of Iraq toward the Kuwaiti border. 50,000 troops will remain for training purposes, hopefully they will be out in 2011 keeping with the timetable Bush agreed to.
    In the last few days I heard that the Iraqis are making noise that they may need assistance till 2020, but I doubt that will happen–I don’t think this country can afford it! (but who knows)

  269. myrtlemay August 18, 2010 at 7:22 pm #

    Here’s the dope on the “free phone” w/ jeans purchase. Now, think hard! What is the first thing you will need when you get a new cell phone? If you answered “minutes”, you go to the head of the class. The makers of the cell phone just happen to have a sweetheart deal offering minutes to sell you after you get your phone (don’t know if it’s the same company or not). You can’t make this stuff up, CFN!

  270. myrtlemay August 18, 2010 at 7:31 pm #

    Some missing details for those interested in the above offer. American Eagle Outfitters, two year CONTRACT, plus, a $25 gift card. Can’t even hazard a guess as to what the jeans cost.

  271. Qshtik August 18, 2010 at 7:39 pm #

    …I gotta go watch Glen Beck!
    BIG mistake admitting to that Cynical. You’ll be haunted to your grave by Hancock and Wage.

  272. ozone August 18, 2010 at 9:24 pm #

    “Ozone, were/are you, by chance, a literature teacher? I’ll bet your lit teachers *loved* you, at any rate. Mine never cared much for me – I’ll explain why in one more paragraph.”
    —Heaven forefend! lol
    Not at all; just enjoy reading; always have.
    Lit teachers loved me; grammar teachers hated me because of my distinct lack of scholarship! (I don’t like to “study”; I’m an “absorber” a la Spongebob. ;o) Always blue-collar/black-collar/hard labor guy.
    And O3, your support for VisionCube was “on the money.” My own father was a tough compact brawler of a man in his early days. He fought lightweight in the army and saw some rough WWII combat service. I’m pretty sure he never did jail time, but the *rough edges* of his life stayed with him always – and also affected my life. I miss him still, even though he has been gone from this life nearly three decades.
    What VC wrote came from the heart. And I kind of like the little red box.
    —That’s just my experience talking. I’m glad you had such a fine man for an example and a dad. People who get hard knocks [and look inward] know for certain what is really valuable.
    Back to literary criticism, O3, you found all that cool symbolism that my teachers always wished I would see and talk about. Me – I just see a great story. In my mind an author rips out a tale and leaves it to the lit teachers to point out the symbolism that he put in accidentally or randomly.
    —Ha! I’m with ya there. Can’t resist a good premise. I simply thought I’d try to outline a few JHK concepts [that he put to literary practice] so some readers might see more than a simple once-over might provide. (Still, if they don’t like the story style/subject matter, ain’t nothin’ gonna change that. )
    Plus, I’ve not read the book, so I’m at a disadvantage.
    —Me neither, but I’m gonna get me a copy! ;o)
    This little “teaser” worked just dandy.
    But I think JHK has deliberately taken Bullock far, far back before some of the beginnings of Western Civilization.
    Was not the right to trial by jury established under English common law centuries ago? To simply summarily execute 9 trespassers without trial puts Bullock on some dangerous legal and moral ground. And since Bullock is a lawyer he knows that.
    —Hmmm. I see your point, but just who’s gonna stop him from dispensing “justice” any way he’d like? A few bodies (or many, many) hanging from trees on the outskirts sends a dire warning. Old timey common practice. Effective? I hope we don’t have to find out…
    (A friend of mine once opined that would-be intruders on his property might think twice when stepping over bullet-riddled bodies to get to his house. Same idea, I guess. People don’t give “the law” much consideration in times of lawlessness and social breakdown.)
    —The rest of the post? I agree. ;o) (Or mebbe I’m just wasting too much bandwidth… as per usual. lol)

  273. CynicalOne August 18, 2010 at 10:21 pm #

    Ah yes, San Jose Mom, I remember those years clearly. My dear daughter is now 25.
    In those days, I referred to Abercrombie & Fitch simply as HELL, in large part due to the pounding music.
    Dad: “Where are you girls off to next?”
    Mom: “HELL.”
    Dad: “Ok. I’ll be outside waiting for you when
    you’re through.
    Daughter: (Giggling, tugging on my arm.)
    We ALL knew which store was HELL.
    But I do miss those days, sorta. They were gone before I knew what had happened. Treasure them.

  274. CynicalOne August 18, 2010 at 10:36 pm #

    Thanks myrtlemay!
    I think the offer has expired now.
    I read about it in a bloomberg.com 8/16 article on back-to-school shopping.
    There was certainly nothing like that going on in the days I was taking my daughter shopping there.
    Could it be America has od’d on jeans?

  275. mika. August 18, 2010 at 11:41 pm #

    I think you’ll enjoy this:
    Murray N. Rothbard: The American Economy and the End of Laissez-Faire: 1870 to World War II:

  276. mika. August 18, 2010 at 11:42 pm #

    You can also find these podcasts on iTunesU

  277. Chubbz Molinoire August 19, 2010 at 12:46 am #

    One of those officers you so glibly deride (and I will not say which one – do your own research) now serves both as a New York City Fireman and as a member of the US Naval Reserve. Not exactly highly remunerative positions. His ENTIRE LIFE is dedicated to public service – what is YOUR life dedicated to, ASOKA??

  278. progressorconserve August 19, 2010 at 2:54 am #

    If You Plan to Use Weapons for Survival
    you need a plan – a true story
    My large outside dog that I referenced earlier, just woke me up tonight from a sound sleep. He was again keeping a marauder from doing damage. I got up to “back him up,” and now I am not sleepy.
    So let me finish the tale.
    My weapon of choice for home defense is a 12 gauge pump shotgun. Our *home defense systems* are so secure and multifaceted, that I *never* feel a need to keep the gun loaded inside the house.
    But a very persistent marauder led me to load the weapon last week – and sleep with the loaded weapon standing right beside my bed.
    And last Wednesday evening, about midnight and right about bedtime, the dog began barking at something. Great dog, btw, a rescue animal that is smart as Einstein concerning protecting our property. When he barks it is for a reason. Otherwise he is silent and black as a shadow.
    So the dog’s barking brought me up off the couch and out on the deck. My nose informed me that a skunk was nearby. A rustle in the brush below the house informed me that the skunk was leaving the immediate area. When the dog proudly appeared on the deck next to me I reached down to pat his chest and got a palm smeared with “skunk juice.”
    It is times like those that make you really glad your dog is an “outside” dog.
    The dog seemed OK physically, and rather pleased that he now smelled like skunk, so my wife and I went on to bed.
    We woke up about 4:30 to hear the dog alerting like crazy at something. I figured it was the skunk again, so I grabbed a flashlight and headed outside to show him how to get a skunk to run away without getting sprayed. No need for a shotgun, I’m not going to kill a skunk for simple trespassing. Besides, those things stink.
    Now my son, the basement dwelling college graduate, was gone on a business trip. And that had freed me to sleep as nude as Bullock. And as I set out into the night armed only with a flashlight and a smile it appeared that the barking had interrupted an erotic dream – if you get my drift. **big grin**
    Out into the front yard I went. I heard a noise near our trashcan and headed toward it – just 30 feet from the front steps. Then I heard the dog bark from the back deck.
    Something’s not right here – my sleep fogged brain tried to tell me.
    But I keep moving forward toward the noise until my flashlight picks out a shape – beside my house- on TWO LEGS – a huge black intruder.
    And I am armed only with a flashlight – my “manhood” contracting rapidly with adrenalin in the cool night air.
    The big black SOB dropped down on all fours when he saw me. And he wasn’t going to run. And the load of birdshot that could make him run was in my 12 gauge shotgun, propped beside my bed, inside – where I was wishing I was.
    And now the dog really starts going crazy, with frantic powerful barks. The dog is on one side, I’m on the other side, and there is at least 400 pounds of unhappy black bear between us. And the only easy way for the bear to exit the area is by running over my dog, or running over me.
    Somehow, that Einstein of a dog figured this out. And instead of charging toward the bear and pushing him into me he CIRCLED THE ENTIRE HOUSE and came up beside me. He started barking like a demon again and that broke the standoff. The bear retreated into the woods and that was that for the night.
    Now, to clarify, I really do not want to kill this bear. But I REALLY did want to shoot that load of bird shot over his head, and maybe put a second load into his ass if he wasn’t running away fast enough for my taste.
    Call me fickle, but I like the bears around my house to have a healthy fear of man.
    And the next time I head out naked in the night with a flashlight – I can practically guarantee I will have that shotgun in my hands.

  279. Eleuthero August 19, 2010 at 3:04 am #

    If Qshtik is correct and the impetus behind
    the mosque near ground zero is from a SUFI,
    I’m all for it. Sufis, to radical Muslims,
    are like Gnostics are to most Christians
    i.e., heretics.
    However, Sufism is a peaceful, meditative, and
    interesting branch of Islam that has produced
    fabulous poetry and art such as the poems of
    Rumi and the stories in books like “Wisdom of
    the Idiots” by Idries Shah. For people who
    want exposure to the highest that Islam has
    to offer, I highly recommend these works.
    I’m in favor of peaceful intelligence …
    from WHEREVER and WHOMEVER it originates

  280. San Jose Mom 51 August 19, 2010 at 9:42 am #

    OMG! It WAS and Abercrombie and Fitch store that I was describing! All stores must be the same.

  281. mika. August 19, 2010 at 11:34 am #

    Nancy Pelosi thinks the reason why questions about the Ground Zero mosque are following her around is because it’s been “all ginned up” and she has called for an investigation into who is funding those raising the questions. Pelosi’s remarks provide an insight into a world in which nothing happens unless it is bought and paid for. Since these are the rules the denizens of that universe have lived by, they cannot conceive of a world that does not run on pure corruption.
    In the world they live in, everything has a price. Whenever anything is observed to happen, the question is always “who sent you”?
    The Ground Zero mosque issue serves two functions, both of which are important. The first is to raise the question of how accountable the administration and the cultural elites are to the sensibilities of the country; and the second is to draw attention to the particular interests that are driving this issue.
    The important thing to remember is that Pelosi’s call for an investigation into those opposed to building of the mosque are geared towards preventing any further discussion on the subject, not expanding it. Since the administration and its allies control vast prosecutorial resources and powers of publicity, an investigation of the Ground Zero mosque’s backers and those opposed will certainly focus on the opposition. The backers will be given a free ride.
    Concerted | The Belmont Club – http://bit.ly/d5oNVH

  282. Jay Schiavone August 19, 2010 at 1:11 pm #

    Only old Dylan, eh? I can only hope that I will be led by men of such nobility and character as Bullock. So this is the Donald Trump of the post-apocalypse. He’s pompous enough. And he may yet be as vulgar.

  283. Jay Schiavone August 19, 2010 at 1:11 pm #

    Only old Dylan, eh? I can only hope that I will be led by men of such nobility and character as Bullock. So this is the Donald Trump of the post-apocalypse. He’s pompous enough. And he may yet be as vulgar.

  284. Qshtik August 19, 2010 at 2:03 pm #

    Nancy Pelosi thinks the reason why questions about the Ground Zero mosque are following her around is because it’s been “all ginned up” and she has called for an investigation into who is funding those raising the questions.
    Excellent link you provided with your comment and I would have characterized your comment itself as excellent too except for the fact that it was taken verbatim from the link and was not enclosed within quotation marks and there were no words of attribution. I don’t like it when I’m being led to believe that someone has a way with words only to discover it’s someone else’s words. But all that aside let’s get to the crux of this Mosque issue …
    To judge by the increasing number of articles in the NY Times concerning the Mosque (the latest being Maureen Dowd’s op-ed in yesterday’s NYT) and now, as you have just made me aware, the questioning of politicians and political pundits on the subject, one has to finally admit that the issue is real and it does “mean dick,” contrary to Tripp’s minority position.
    Pelosi, not so subtley, implies there is some sort of well funded tiger team out there whose goal is to “gin up” an issue intended, effectively, to drive democrats, liberals and the current administration up a wall … strictly for political gain. She doesn’t acknowledge at all that there are citizens with genuine reasons for opposition to this project, like myself.
    I can’t stress enough, the issue is not a constitutional one about freedom of religion. It is an issue of symbolism. Time must pass – a lot more than 9 years – to let the wound of 911 heal, or the Mosque will be seen as an in-your-face effront. It does not matter that the imam running the show is a Sufi, whom we are told are the good guys. 99% of our citizens know nothing of subtle differences between and among the various sects within Islam any more than the average muslim in Saudi, Pakistan, Iraq, etc knows the difference between baptists, episcopalians and seventh day adventists.
    Imagine it was the year 1200 and a squad from a particular sect of christian crusaders stealthily entered a muslim city, slaughtered 3000 people in a day (losing only 19 themselves), caused vast physical damage to the city, and promptly left. Nine years later another group of christians (let’s call them sufi christians), who had opposed the crusades, showed up and wanted to build a large christian cathedral/ community center near the site of the earlier slaughter, one of whose purposes was “to honor the 3000 dead.” I think the muslim response might run something like “Yeah right! Check back with us in 50 years.” And who could blame them?

  285. messianicdruid August 19, 2010 at 2:13 pm #

    Thanks for the links.
    Whaddya think ole Murray and Ludwig would say about this?

  286. mika. August 19, 2010 at 2:35 pm #

    I thought it was obvious that the except was a copy and paste job, as I provided and attributed the article’s title, the web site’s title, and its web address. But I’m flattered that you thought that I might have wrote it. 🙂

  287. mika. August 19, 2010 at 2:36 pm #

    except -> excerpt

  288. mika. August 19, 2010 at 2:51 pm #

    I see your kingdom of god link and I’ll raise you with these two:
    What Samuel Said about Solomon – Frank Chodorov – Mises Institute – mika2k1’s posterous – http://goo.gl/ko1J
    Joseph, Secretary of Agriculture – Frank Chodorov – Mises Institute – mika2k1’s posterous – http://goo.gl/VP0N

  289. Qshtik August 19, 2010 at 2:51 pm #

    To that “farmer from Macon” and others:
    This, from Agora Financial’s 5 Min. Forecast
    Sign of the times? The city of Seattle just made major changes to its zoning laws, clearing the way for people to produce more of their own food. Folks in the Emerald City can now keep up to eight chickens, and they can grow crops on up to 4,000 square feet of property in residential zones. (They can sell their produce on-site, too.)
    Sure, you can chalk up some of this to effete Pacific Northwest types going organic and “locavore.” But it could also be an extension of the “new frugality,” as seen with the boom in home gardening that got under way more than a year ago, when mail-order seed companies ran out of supply.
    And even Seattle has its limits: Roosters are banned.

  290. asoka August 19, 2010 at 3:28 pm #

    One of those officers you so glibly deride (and I will not say which one – do your own research) now serves both as a New York City Fireman and as a member of the US Naval Reserve. Not exactly highly remunerative positions. His ENTIRE LIFE is dedicated to public service
    Spending your entire life on the government dole does not justify pumping 41 bullets into an unarmed civilian.
    All of those “officers” receiving government paychecks are murderers and should be in prison for homicide. Homicide is a crime… even for those dependent on the government for their pay.
    I am not glibly deriding. I am absolutely condemning an illegal act of murder. The cowards changed the venue of the trial to Albany to get a lily-white set of jurors who wouldn’t give a shit about a Black African immigrant being murdered.

  291. asoka August 19, 2010 at 3:32 pm #


    One of those officers you so glibly deride (and I will not say which one – do your own research) now serves both as a New York City Fireman and as a member of the US Naval Reserve. Not exactly highly remunerative positions. His ENTIRE LIFE is dedicated to public service…

    Spending your entire life on the government dole does not justify pumping 41 bullets into an unarmed civilian.
    All of those “officers” receiving government paychecks are murderers and should be in prison for homicide. Homicide is a crime… even for those dependent on the government for their pay.
    I am not glibly deriding. I am absolutely condemning an illegal act of murder. The cowards changed the venue of the trial to Albany to get a lily-white set of jurors who wouldn’t give a shit about a Black African immigrant being murdered.

  292. Eleuthero August 19, 2010 at 4:26 pm #

    You seem like an intelligent fellow and,
    I’m gathering, an opponent of the mosque
    near ground zero. However, I think you’re
    capable of seeing that if, as rumors seem
    to indicate, that the mosque is backed by
    SUFI Muslims, it might be a net plus to
    allow the mosque to be built.
    Sufis are considered heretical Muslims by
    radical Muslims … mainly because they are
    totally peaceful. They’re almost like a
    “Buddhist” sect within Islam. If the Sufi
    rumor turns out to be true, there is a bit
    of comic irony here.

  293. wagelaborer August 19, 2010 at 5:19 pm #

    Thanks, Asoka.
    I couldn’t believe Chubb’s comment either, when I read it!
    He’s actually justifying murder by pointing out that the murderer remains on the public payroll?
    What kind of morality is that?

  294. wagelaborer August 19, 2010 at 5:24 pm #

    And what kind of logic is it that deduces that because Fox News and Rush Limbaugh hysterically harp on something for weeks, then it must be an issue that spontaneously is important to Americans?
    And you link to a frigging tea party site to prove your point?
    Well, then. It must be true. If tea partiers care about what the right wing cares about, it must be important!
    And q’s example already happened, as I wrote about in my blog 10 days ago, when the hype was already in full hysteria.

  295. mika. August 19, 2010 at 6:08 pm #

    I’m opposed to ALL organized religions. I think that while the government mafia exists, it should be demanded that these organizations be taxed out of existence.

  296. lbendet August 19, 2010 at 6:20 pm #

    From Life After the Oil Crash today
    Gerald Celente: It’s All Over Now, Are You Prepared?
    « on: August 18, 2010, 12:45:35 PM »
    Gerald Celente: It’s All Over Now, Are You Prepared?
    China, India and Europe are done. The direction to go is less is more. The U.S. is going in the wrong direction. There is a lot of opportunity for young people with new technology available. We cannot continue to service other countries. The only way this country can come back is for people to buy from each other. Buy local. Get in shape, get healthy. Go back to the great depression pictures. They are respectful, dignified and in shape. People today are fixed on the gangster mentality and look.
    Celente’s famous saying: When people lose everything they lose it.
    “Rip up that useless lawn and grow food”. Get a support group with like-minded people. Prepare for the worst. Banks will close if a terror strike occurs and the dollar will devalue, are you prepared? The education system has collapsed. Only the strong will survive when the financial collapse occurs. Why buy a house now it’s only going to get worse! The criminals are in charge of Wall Street. The jobs are overseas, the government has sold us out. We are clerks, cashiers and stock clerks. There IS NO RECOVERY. We will be going to WAR. Anyone who buys stocks is a loser. It’s gambling. Paper currency will COLLAPSE.
    Worth listening to

  297. mika. August 19, 2010 at 6:22 pm #

    I couldn’t care less about the red and blue circus clowns and their act. The circus masters are the same. Just because you’re too emotionally propagandized to see and understand this, doesn’t mean that everyone is.
    As for the Tea Party, the US is too far gone to save. The only thing that can be done is to accelerate the collapse. Faster, please!

  298. mika. August 19, 2010 at 6:35 pm #

    Excellent post, lbendet. And excellent advice.

  299. Eleuthero August 19, 2010 at 7:44 pm #

    I’m with you, brother!! My post was, in
    no way, an advocacy for the mosque or any
    particular religious sect or movement. It
    was a tongue-in-cheek post wherein I was
    simply pointing out the irony of a SUFI
    instigated mosque. It might piss everybody
    off … Muslims, Jews, and Christians alike.
    I’ve studied a lot of theological systems
    because I’m just a curious guy. However,
    at the end of the day, I’m an agnostic.
    Religions to me, are an indication that the
    human race is still in its adolescence. It’s
    certainly irrefutable that they haven’t
    decreased the human race’s violent impulses.
    Only Buddhism has a long history of nonviolence
    but Buddhism, to me, does not qualify as a
    religion because IT SAYS NOTHING ABOUT “GOD”.
    I look at Buddhism as an interesting form of
    mental hygiene i.e., it looks at desire as
    inherently insatiable and endlessly productive
    of miserable moods and emotions.

  300. mika. August 19, 2010 at 8:19 pm #

    I see Buddhism as another form of mysticism, which I totally reject as another dead end. So no, Buddhism is another empty suit as are all the other religions.
    If you want to engage in “mental hygiene”, try science and logic. We could use more brains devoted to these.

  301. asoka August 19, 2010 at 8:30 pm #

    I see Qshtik is still stirring up the tempest in a teacup (I have downgraded it from a tempest in a teapot).
    Here are Senator Al Franken’s comments:
    “I don’t know how many of you have been to New York, but if a building is two blocks away from anything, you can’t see it. It’s a community center. They’re going to have a gym. They’re going to have point guards. Muslim point guards,” Franken said, to laughter and applause.
    “They (Republicans) do this every two years. They try to find a wedge issue, and they try to work it.”

  302. mika. August 19, 2010 at 9:04 pm #

    Why is it so important to you to have that mosque. You’re shilling pretty hard for it, why?

  303. Qshtik August 19, 2010 at 9:07 pm #

    Qshtik is still stirring up the tempest in a teacup
    A teacup indeed…
    Brother Obama did more stirring than I could ever hope to. Here is what Maureen Dowd had to say about it in her op-ed yesterday:
    “I was not commenting, and I will not comment, on the wisdom of making the decision to put a mosque there,” he said the morning after he commented on the wisdom of making a decision to put a mosque there. “I was commenting very specifically on the right people have that dates back to our founding. That’s what our country is about.”
    Let me be perfectly clear, Mr. Perfectly Unclear President: You cannot take such a stand on a matter of first principle and then take it back the next morning
    Sure he can. Does he contradict himself? Well then he contradicts himself. He is large. He contains multitudes.

  304. Qshtik August 19, 2010 at 9:21 pm #

    They’re going to have point guards. Muslim point guards,” Franken said, to laughter and applause.
    You know the Dems are in trouble when they have to bring in the clowns.

  305. diogen August 19, 2010 at 9:23 pm #

    “Funny how people here identify with the wealthy man with servants.”
    Wage, I think people identify with someone being threatened by armed invaders, wealth and servants are irrelevant.
    “I’m betting that most of us have much more in common with the starving men, once the goodies quit coming.”
    Probably, but would most of us invade other people’s homes and threaten them with harm? After all, these people didn’t ask for food or jobs, they demanded gold under the threat of violence.
    Your sense of justice is very convoluted in this case, Wage. I think you let your ideology (not your good judgement) guide your sense of right and wrong, and you emerge on unreasonable path.
    Anyone who invades my home and threatens harm to the occupants of my home forfeits his own life, so executing them is fair game. In fact, NOT executing them is a miscarriage of justice.

  306. progressorconserve August 19, 2010 at 9:30 pm #

    yawn, yawn
    The mosque – The Mosque – The Islamic Community Center – Cordoba House – The Whatfreakingever
    I am so tired of hearing about this thing, in the media and on CFN. If I were a legal, voting citizen of NYC, maybe even of New York State, I would have a need to care and a right to care.
    I am not, and I don’t, and I don’t.
    Eluthero does make a good point about the Sufis, Shites, and Sunnis. There are sects within Islam. Some are more thoughtful and peaceful. Others are less thoughtful and more prone to violence.
    On a personal level, I would welcome a new Episcopal or Unitarian Church near my house. If a Church of God or one of the Snake Handling Independent Baptist Churches wanted to open, I would be much less pleased. I might even try to stop the thing – in a low profile sort of manner.
    Anyone know some Sufi Muslims who want to open a mystical Mosque in northern Georgia?
    At least those Sufis can admit that some of their Brother Muslims have demonstrated a tendency toward violence.

  307. diogen August 19, 2010 at 9:31 pm #

    “be taxed out of existence. ”
    And replaced with what? Like it or not, but religiosity is a part of human nature, just like business, politics and art, among other things.
    You’re a complete loon if you think that human societies can discard religion. Besides giving people identity and a way to rationalize reality, religion serves many useful social roles, including giving people who need it a certainty in an uncertain world. Nothing you can offer them will replace that. Besides, religion is, among other things, a useful tool for keeping social order within societies (e.g. in ancient Rome the magistrate deemed all religions useful).

  308. progressorconserve August 19, 2010 at 10:22 pm #

    Apologies All Around?
    – Not –
    Mika, you ask:
    Why is it so important to you to have that mosque. You’re shilling pretty hard for it, why?”
    Let me answer with a parable:
    Doubtless, some of you are getting tired of stories about dogs. Sorry about that, you’ll just have to learn to love your scroll button as I have learned to love mine for certain posters and topics.
    But you’ll all like this dog story if you stick with it.
    I was sitting on the back porch after dark tonight, just reading through the CFN thread and thinking.
    My large outside dog was with me, and he seemed a little anxious – like a threat was nearby.
    “What is it, boy,” I asked.
    “You smell a deer in the garden?”
    “‘Coons getting the chickens?”
    “Is it another BEAR!”
    I tried to call the roll of threats for him.
    No response from the dog, who stayed agitated, staring at the screen on the laptop.
    Finally he cleared his throat and spoke. “Why does a pacifist want to burn down your house and put a bullet in my brain, Master?”
    “And should I, your dog, be worried about the French Resistance? What is the French Resistance?”
    “And Master, what the Hell is cocaine and would I like it if I found it in meat?”
    I will admit that I occasionally talk to animals – and I also occasionally curse at machinery.
    It was when my dog answered back tonight that I realized that I needed to stop eating the drug laced meat that Gangsta Disciples, Christians, and Muslims keep leaving in the yard.
    Mika, Asoka, and others. ALL of you have occasional good and accurate ideas.
    It is NOT HELPFUL to torture every idea into a convoluted, distorted, burned out shell of itself – just for the pure joy of “winning” an argument.
    You are just flapping your big brains at each other in a sort of mental masturbation.
    I’m going outside to hang out with the bears.

  309. myrtlemay August 19, 2010 at 10:28 pm #

    I’m ready as well for a nappy poo on this. I’ll just go for the old duck and cover as the gathering religious mosque s_it storm continues on this blog. I’m ready to concede… I was wrong on the mosque issue. Let’m have it. While I’m at it tonight, I’m going to put the old peak oil on the back burner to simmer as well.
    My topic of choice is the Depression (the one we’re in now. Join me if you like, or not) IMO this economy is going down, down, down. Revised figures for unemployment today. I believe I heard 500K, give or take. Some of you have made mention of having children going into college, graduating from college, etc. My question to you; as a father, mother, grand parent, or “gasp”, soon to be great grandmother: How do you sleep at night knowing the odds out there for young people today? Seriously! I’ve been around the block for many, many moons. I don’t remember EVER seeing the SHTF in economic terms with this force in my life, I mean, not EVER! I know some young and not so young (in their late 30s) folks who are so broke, they can’t even afford to have their TEETH fixed! (We’re talking gap toothed smiles here.) I cannot even begin to imagine what that must be like. I invited one man to dinner or lunch at my place, and he was REALLY hungry (hint-I’m not that great a cook, I’m about 30 years older than he, and don’t have any money). Of course, it could be my natural charm and wit, but I digress. Some people (those who still have jobs) have had their work week cut down to 3 or 4 days. One friend, an upper middle class psychologist, lives in a far nicer place than my dive. She asked me two months ago if I could front her the money for her next mortgage payment (of course, I didn’t do it). I’m guessing she got burned in the housing bubble. She had a really swank house-warming party a few years ago. Nice neighborhood, pretentious, snooty neighbors, the WORKS! I just feel sick inside, knowing these people are hurting so bad. My own mother lived through the Great Depression, and her family was very well off, compared to most. I’ll never forget her words to me. She said, “Myrtle, it’s better to never have had money than to have had it and gone broke”. I never fully understood what she meant by that until I look around and see the suffering I see now. Very sad, and scary. Meanwhile, our resident boy-in-charge is looking more clueless than ever…probably even has waffles for breakfast!

  310. Qshtik August 19, 2010 at 10:41 pm #

    To paraphrase my least favorite commenter (behind even Asoka), Ms Mamby Pamby:
    yawn, fart
    The twin towers – The oh-so-important twin towers – The Friggin World Trade Center – And GroundFuckingZero. And did I forget to mention the Pentagon and Flt 93? WHO GIVES TWO SHITS!?!
    I am so tired of hearing for 9 fucking years about GroundFuckingZero, in the media and on CFN. If I were a legal, voting citizen of NYC, maybe even of New York State, (or DC or PA) I might have a need to care and a right to care.
    But I’m not, and I don’t, and I don’t.

  311. asoka August 19, 2010 at 10:47 pm #

    My topic of choice is the Depression (the one we’re in now. Join me if you like, or not) IMO this economy is going down, down, down.

    What depression? Companies have more cash reserves than ever. The private sector employers are sitting on heaps of cash and are beginning to move. They are engaging in construction and development projects that equal JOBS in the United States, in the private sector.
    Excerpt from Forbes Magazine: Caterpillar Inc. (NYSE: CAT) today announced it has selected the city of Victoria, Texas, as the location for the company’s new state-of-the-art hydraulic excavator manufacturing facility.
    Ground breaking for the 600,000-square-foot manufacturing operation is scheduled to take place in September 2010.
    Once fully operational, it will triple the current capacity of hydraulic excavators produced by the company in the United States, and would double the number of Caterpillar employees in the U.S. making excavators.
    The decision to increase manufacturing capacity and employment in the United States is part of Caterpillar’s long-term strategic initiative to develop the appropriate global footprint to competitively produce hydraulic excavators.

  312. progressorconserve August 19, 2010 at 11:02 pm #

    I’m with you, Sister, on about everything you just said.
    And what your mom said, “Myrtle, it’s better to never have had money than to have had it and gone broke”
    Is very true – even chilling, if you think it all the way through – because that’s what the current crop of *say* under-40’s are going to be living if things don’t turn around.
    I was talking about going to vet school, many years ago at a family reunion. One of my mom’s brothers, who came up HARD in the depression, said something I’ve never forgotten, “No, Son, – we get to another depression and all these dogs and cats aren’t gonna be getting any care at all!”
    What is it with me and DOGS this week, anyway??
    I totally understood what he meant, in the early ’70’s. Now, it’s hard to picture American society giving up ANYTHING or any privilege.
    Which might be OK if the country actually MADE USEFUL THINGS AND PEOPLE HAD REAL JOBS.
    But we can’t run a vibrant economy on nail salons, burger joints, and the defense industry…which is about all we have left right now.
    And I’ll say again, if we have an Aristocratic Elite they are STUPID! Our business aristocrats have given up their children’s future – for short term profits.
    I’m here for suggestions!
    And Asoka, I’ll check out the Caterpillar thing – that could be good news. Of course Texas represents non-union cheap labor for one thing.

  313. progressorconserve August 19, 2010 at 11:06 pm #

    What are you trying to say in this post?
    Personally, I thing this mosque is a bad idea – of course there’s already one in the Pentagon – nobody raised any Hell about it.
    And what part of the 2nd amendment is NYC or the US going to use to stop this Mosque – other that some zoning challenge or some sort of persuasion.
    And can you ever manage to insult another poster without exposing your gender fears?

  314. Old Soldier August 19, 2010 at 11:14 pm #

    What is it about dogs and the UPS trucks? Pretty simple: They are allowed to use mace or pepper spray on dogs they feel are threatening. Which for some of the drivers is a pretty loose description. Once a dog has been pepper sprayed by a guy in brown, from a brown truck, making some sort of delivery, to a place the dog feels was the dog’s turf anyway, most dogs tend to have a rather dim view of other guys in brown getting down from brown trucks. Incidentally, the policy does NOT apply to FEDEX (according to both a FEDEX driver and a UPS driver who serve my place), which may be why some dogs are less spooked by FEDEX delivery men. Not a tough one to figure out. And a classic example of why violence may work, but also tends to beget more violence. Who lives by the sword, dies by the sword, sort of thing. Kunstler’s explorations into what happens to a larger society when the constraints of civil society come off are worthy of thought. Of course, “civil society” as we know it is civil only because there is an ingrained (and learned) fear of “the man.” When that fear is gone, or when the threat of governmental violence (“the man”) is gone, then it falls upon the individual who wishes to maintain a modicum of civility to be prepared for acts of counter violence. The simple truth is that police do not protect us. They arrive after a violent crime, take notes and photos, and sometimes, if lucky, are in a future situation able to nab the (alleged) perp. Who may or may not ever actually face punishment for the crime (whatever it was) other than temporary loss of liberty. We have reached a far cry from even the 1950s in the US, when killings led, often in fairly short order (something like 2-3
    after arrest and initial conviction) to capital punishment in most cases. Now, we have murders languishing in jail for their natural lives, at taxpayer expense. We here in the US actually have a higher percentage of our population jailed than almost any other nation in the world. Has it stopped fatal violent crime? Hmmnnn… No.
    But civil society is far more about the inculcation of civitas – the mores of the city; the code of getting along with other folks – than is often given credit. What has happened in most schools in the US of A is that “civics” (under what ever name it was taught) is gone. No child may be left behind, but none are being taught what it means to be a productive and civil member of the society of this country. Nation statehood is taught, not caught. It is an artificial construct. A multi-cultural nation is a pipedream. There have been multi-cultural empires, sure, but not nations – or at least not for very long. If you don’t look like you might be my cousin, or at least share a common language, and cultural (and inculcated common civic understanding), then it is real hard to imagine that we are all in this together. If you don’t look, or act, or share a common civic story, or at least speak like me, in an intelligible way, you are not part of my tribe. Period. That’s the way tribes work. That’s how we as humans are hard wired to work. “Soldierization” – boot camp – is all about creating a common language, common skills, common set of values, in a group of dissimilar folks. It’s how we create soldiers from civilians. Same thing happens in the Marines, the Navy, the Air Force, the Coast Guard, in fact, in each and every disciplined service. Gangs, too. People just work that way. Dogs, too. Dogs are tribal with humans. They sided with us, against their more wolfish kind, and have (for the most part) never looked back. Once part of a tribe or pack of humans, (no matter how small), they play their part, as they understand it through dog’s eyes and dog’s brain. The basic tribal glue is loyalty. Always has been, always will be. That loyalty may be enshrined in a formal oath of fealty and obedience, or it may be far more viseral and animal, but it is loyalty that creates the tribe. Kunstler is writing about, imagining, what happens when the scale of national para-tribes collapses into pack like behavior. It can, in both humans and in dogs. It has before; it is likely to again. When it gets down to that level, it is the law of the tooth and claw. Feudalism – with it’s formalized structures of fealty – was a response to smaller scale kinship and clan ties of loyalty prevalent in the “dark Ages.” Feudalism, in some form, is likely to energe after any sort of a collapse of a larger system of civitas. Or, there will be a period of “Dark Ages” when the scale is more clan and family like, and less formally feudal, until honor systems fully emerge, and scaled up fealty can come into being. It will be interesting to see how fast Kunstler has the scope and scale of honor systems emerge in his world made by hand… Looking forward to reading the book.
    By the way, if we were to stumble into a post-breakdown period, what skills would you have that make you, personally, valuable to a society? These can be developed as a hobby now, while there is still time…

  315. asoka August 19, 2010 at 11:20 pm #

    “of course there’s already one [a mosque] in the Pentagon – nobody raised any Hell about it.”
    And nobody seems to mind that Muslims are serving and dying in the United States Armed Forces. Aren’t USA Muslims fighting and dying for freedom? Including freedom of worship wherever they want?
    And don’t think the Cordoba community center is about SYMBOLISM because mosques are being opposed all over the United States by prejudiced people who are easily manipulated by propaganda and by certain news media and by certain political parties who want to create division.

  316. progressorconserve August 19, 2010 at 11:34 pm #

    thing should be think
    that should be than
    But the 1st Amendment is written and spelled correctly and gives zero room for argument.
    Let’s try to change the 14th amendment first before we tackle the 2nd.
    That *might* make some sense – maybe? And that looks like the direction the RW will go when they *solve* this Mosque/community center situation.
    And Old Soldier – NICE post!
    And Asoka – you’re creating division here. Your points are noted. Some may completely agree, although I can’t imagine whom.
    Others may partially agree, and I’m in that group.
    Others will never agree, no matter what.
    Asoka, study chaos theory a little. Your incessant parsing of argument down to infinitely small points is divisive. And it hurts your “cause,” if you even have a cause besides infinite argument.

  317. Qshtik August 19, 2010 at 11:40 pm #

    From Reuters:
    With political sensitivities heightened over the New York project, the Pentagon chapel came under closer scrutiny after a speaker on a television talk show incorrectly asserted there was a mosque at the Pentagon.
    “There’s not,” Wright said. “There’s a multifaith chapel.”

  318. Qshtik August 19, 2010 at 11:57 pm #

    if we were to stumble into a post-breakdown period, what skills would you have that make you, personally, valuable to a society?
    Well, let’s see … I can cross-foot a spreadsheet like nobodies business ;o)

  319. Qshtik August 20, 2010 at 12:08 am #

    And nobody seems to mind that Muslims are serving and dying in the United States Armed Forces.
    Bullshit! It was only a few hours ago you said members of the military were a bunch of murdering freeloaders living on the govt dole … or words to that effect.
    But, you are large, etc.

  320. Qshtik August 20, 2010 at 12:10 am #

    Make that nobody’s

  321. mika. August 20, 2010 at 12:11 am #

    And replaced with what?
    Private “religious” beliefs should be kept private. They are not part of the public domain, nor should they be. My view is that any intrusion into the public domain should be strongly discouraged. If you want to walk in public with your dick hanging out for all see, fine. But I think there should be consequences for such obscenity. Paying a hefty fine is not an unreasonable demand.

  322. asoka August 20, 2010 at 12:41 am #

    Qshtik, I was referring to police officers in plain clothes who murdered an innocent man standing at the door to his apartment building by putting 41 bullets into him. That was the murderous part.
    Muslims in the military is altogether different. I have never heard anyone criticize Muslims for putting their lives on the line to defend America.
    See the difference? Not bullshit. Not “I am large.”

  323. asoka August 20, 2010 at 12:44 am #

    The Gitmo Guard Who Converted to Islam
    General NewsTerry Holdbrooks stood watch over prisoners at Gitmo. What he saw made him adopt their faith.
    Dan Ephron
    From the magazine issue dated Mar 30, 2009
    Army specialist Terry Holdbrooks had been a guard at Guantánamo for about six months the night he had his life-altering conversation with detainee 590, a Moroccan also known as “the General.” This was early 2004, about halfway through Holdbrooks’s stint at Guantánamo with the 463rd Military Police Company. Until then, he’d spent most of his day shifts just doing his duty. He’d escort prisoners to interrogations or walk up and down the cellblock making sure they weren’t passing notes. But the midnight shifts were slow. “The only thing you really had to do was mop the center floor,” he says. So Holdbrooks began spending part of the night sitting cross-legged on the ground, talking to detainees through the metal mesh of their cell doors.

    SOURCE: Muslims in the Military Website

  324. Qshtik August 20, 2010 at 12:52 am #

    I think there is some disingenuousness at this blog concerning the power of symbolism. Read about the swastika at the link below which for 3000 years had nothing but positive connotations in many cultures … until less than 100 years ago. Now, I dare say, not one person here (unless, perhaps Vlad) would think of hanging a swastika flag at their home or applying a swastika to their car bumper. It does not matter that you have no connection whatsoever with German Nazism. The negative power of this symbol is visceral.
    You may believe in your heart that the GZ Mosque will be perceived as just another building in NY but many others are seeing it as a powerful negative symbol. I say, put this project on the back burner and let’s see if the old saying is true … that “time heals all.”

  325. Qshtik August 20, 2010 at 1:20 am #

    Asoka, you are one conflicted dude for a champion of BIG GOVERNMENT. How dare you imply that police, fire fighters and members of the Naval Reserve are spending their lives “on the government dole.” You have just lumped in and dishonored every cop, fireman and sailor who has NOT pumped bullets into an unarmed civilian.

  326. asoka August 20, 2010 at 1:24 am #

    You may believe in your heart that the GZ Mosque will be perceived as just another building in NY but many others are seeing it as a powerful negative symbol.

    Oooooh, “a powerful negative symbol”… how scary!
    Many also believe Obama is a Muslim and they think that is scary.
    Unlike Nazism, which killed millions of people, Islam is a universal religion protected by the constitution of the United States.
    It is not a crime to be a Muslim and building a mosque is not a crime. If you stop a positive project because somebody’s feelings might be hurt, you would never do anything positive. There is always somebody who will complain.
    This issue is a good opportunity to educate about the positive aspects of Islam and how much good the Cordoba House community center will do for healing.
    The Cordoba House project is a positive symbol, and puts the spotlight on those who are seeing it as a “negative” symbol out of there desire for short-term political gain.
    Cordoba House will have a basketball court and a culinary school. Two floors will have a prayer room. The other eleven will host movie nights, performances, group dinners, etc — it’s basically a Muslim YMCA, open to everyone.
    Cordoba House is being built by moderate Muslims who are doing everything we could ask of them. They’re trying to build a bridge in the communities they live in, trying to show the world that Muslims are cool and interesting and diverse, and proving that being a Muslim does not equal being a terrorist.
    But they’re being thrown under the bus by our elected leaders, egged on by some of the ugliest elements of the right-wing. Well-intentioned leaders of the Democratic Party are getting caught up in the fray as well, some of them seeking to find common ground with an implacable opposition. It’s not helping.
    This isn’t just a Manhattan problem. Right now, there is opposition to mosques in Staten Island, Brooklyn, Southern California, Kentucky, Tennessee, Georgia, Illinois, and dozens of other locations across our nation. Where would they move? If public pressure can be brought to bear to take down the most high-profile Muslim community center in liberal NYC, then these other places don’t even have a chance, Ground Zero connection or not.
    Frankly, this isn’t about Ground Zero. This is about America. This is about freedom. This is about people and there seems to be no place that Muslim people can go without being harassed.
    The harassment has to stop, and that starts with you and me.
    I think most people agree that Muslims have the right to worship. But these efforts to harass Muslims are based in fear, prejudice, and ignorance. Removing a community center doesn’t solve these problems. But talking about religious freedom — really engaging people — can open people’s minds, and blunt the prejudice.

  327. asoka August 20, 2010 at 1:27 am #

    The Cordoba House project is a positive symbol, and puts the spotlight on those who are seeing it as a “negative” symbol out of their desire for short-term political gain.

  328. asoka August 20, 2010 at 2:14 am #

    Abdul Rauf is a Sufi Muslim (which is more spiritual in nature rather than strictly ritual – an important distinction from almost all of the radical Muslim clerics) who has devoted his career to interfaith understanding.
    Moreover, his wife, Daisy Khan, is on an advisory team for the National September 11 Memorial and Museum.
    According to Lynn Rasic, a spokeswoman for the memorial, “The idea of a cultural center that strengthens ties between Muslims and people of all faiths and backgrounds is positive.
    Even conservative radio talk show host Laura Ingraham said in an interview (as guest host on Fox TV’s “The O’Reilly Factor”) with Daisy Khan, “I like what you’re trying to do.”

  329. asoka August 20, 2010 at 2:31 am #

    I wonder how many of the people, like Qshtik, who think the idea of a mosque in the vicinity of ground zero is a “negative symbol” don’t understand how Muslims are angered by the presence of the U.S. military in their countries, i.e., American cultural centers at gunpoint, a truly “negative symbol,” especially when the Americans are kicking in doors at 2:00 a.m., shooting pregnant women, then digging out the bullets from the fetus to cover up the crime.
    Do people opposed on the grounds of sensitivity think that existing mosques in the vicinity of ground zero are somehow insensitive (Masjid Manhattan is four blocks from ground zero and Masjid al-Farah is about 12 blocks from ground zero).
    If the argument of “sensitivity” prevails, the logical extension is that there shouldn’t be any mosques anywhere near ground zero. Next they will want the existing mosques near Ground Zero be destroyed. Then they will say mosques everywhere be destroyed.
    It is best not to give in to these political people who are using fear to manipulate opinion.

  330. Eleuthero August 20, 2010 at 4:19 am #

    Mika wrote:
    “If you want to engage in “mental hygiene”, try science and logic. We could use more brains devoted to these.”
    You must be new to this site. I’m a statistician
    and computer scientist for a living. Don’t worry,
    … I’ve been “trying” science and logic for a
    However, science and logic have also created
    H-Bombs, germ warfare, and Frankenfoods. That’s
    why people need to be fully educated in history,
    ethics, and something aesthetic like music. I
    do NOT agree with you that science and logic
    form a FULL system of “mental hygiene”.

  331. Eleuthero August 20, 2010 at 4:36 am #

    Thank you, Myrtle, for reminding people
    that 80% of the living room is occupied
    by a pink elephant but instead they fuss
    about a knick-knack the size of a coin.
    The mosque is a TERTIARY issue. It barely
    deserves ANY discussion, aside from the
    I am seeing a degree of economic suffering
    in ordinary people that I have never seen
    in my lifetime. I personally know three
    people in their 50s-60s whose income is
    now half what it was a decade ago. I
    know a guy who IS gap-toothed because he
    cannot afford to have his dentures fixed.
    I’m seeing a LOT of multi-family houses
    because no one can afford their mortgage
    or someone who moved in couldn’t afford
    their rent someplace else.
    Thanks for attempting to get this website
    back to the true CFN spirit. This mosque
    brouhaha isn’t worth one-hundredth the
    number of words devoted to it above …
    from EITHER side of the issue.
    I don’t blame you for taking a nap, Myrtle.
    I’m taking one, too. Maybe by Saturday
    we’ll be talking about real issues again.

  332. Eleuthero August 20, 2010 at 4:45 am #

    ProgressOrConserve wrote:
    “Mika, Asoka, and others. ALL of you have occasional good and accurate ideas.
    It is NOT HELPFUL to torture every idea into a convoluted, distorted, burned out shell of itself – just for the pure joy of “winning” an argument.
    You are just flapping your big brains at each other in a sort of mental masturbation.
    I’m going outside to hang out with the bears.”
    You and Myrtle get ten zillion gold stars for
    chastising the philosophers who want to argue
    how many Muslims dance on the head of a pin
    while the boat they are ALL in … is sinking.

  333. Ool August 20, 2010 at 5:47 am #

    It is precisely because money loses value over time that the economy booms. Otherwise, if money retained its value while everything of actual value depreciates through simple erosion, people would invest in nothing but dead capital rather than actual productive ventures. That would cause a spiraling deflation, with everything being incredibly cheap but most people not even having the money to buy that any more.
    That’s why slow, gradual inflation isn’t bad. After all, what does it matter if your granddad could buy an apple for a penny eighty years ago? It’s not as if he made money back then in order to be able to eat in a century. If he had kept his money for that long it might as well not have existed, and the economy would have been the poorer for its not being in circulation.
    Sudden inflation, making prices go up three-fold from one month to the next is bad, of course. But it was the opposite happening in the Thirties that rendered people destitute at the time.

  334. Ool August 20, 2010 at 6:06 am #

    And Dark Ages aren’t exactly desirable. If the decline of oil spurred us on to go for more abundant energy sources, like all the sunlight wasted into space by the Sun — two billion times more than shines on this planet — I’d be listening to solutions. But returning to a homesteading culture with local electricity? What’s the point of that? Even if there were sustainable happiness for generations under such conditions, eventually an asteroid would fall on our heads and that would be that.
    Give me space elevators! Give me electricity microwaved down from the heavens! Give me rotating habitats representing orders of magnitude more real estate than all the dry land on this planet could provide us with! Don’t give me Mad Max meets Little House on the Prairie! You may call it idyllic, I call it pointless and depressing. It is a state of living to be proud of coming from, not going to.

  335. myrtlemay August 20, 2010 at 8:17 am #

    I think you meant Namby-Pamby, ASSHOLE!

  336. progressorconserve August 20, 2010 at 10:15 am #

    Q “never” makes a grammar or spelling mistake – especially when related to imbuing men with feminine characteristics ON AN ANONYMOUS WEBSITE.
    For some reason Q is loving on that retired Marine DI who is always shooting watermelons on the History Channel.
    It’s worth watching. Most men just think it’s a funny commercial. A few seem to really get off on it and memorize the thing. Sigmund Freud would find this fascinating.
    And it is mamby-pamby, according to GEICO.
    But, not to offend, Myrtle, I’m not sure asshole is a good insult either. For one thing, every creature on Earth with a complete digestive system possesses an asshole, generally referred to as an anus. 😉
    For another, assholes perform a useful, even necessary function in life.
    My preferred insult is jackass. This is a mean AND stubborn animal. Jackasses are generally too small to perform much useful work. I once had a jackass bite me on the arm just for the pure stubborn man-hating joy of biting.
    Can anyone think of a better term to describe certain individuals with qualities such as this?

  337. CynicalOne August 20, 2010 at 10:31 am #

    I think this whole mosque thing is a distraction.
    Read yesterday that they’ve raised only 18 of the approx. 100 million cost. There are no blueprints, no architect. Doesn’t sound very serious to me.
    So, begs the question…a distraction from what…
    which takes me to myrtlemay’s post…
    Isn’t it amusing, one day Obama is standing on a lawn somewhere telling folks things ARE getting better. Next day, 500,000 UE,(likely worse; watch for the future REVISION) and he scoots off to Martha’s Vineyard, playground of the wealthy. This nation is in crisis and he’s off on his 6th vacation SO FAR this year. Vacation from WHAT?!?!
    Why isn’t he sitting his ass in the oval office GETTING A PLAN!!! There obviously isn’t one.
    What a f’n JOKE!

  338. Qshtik August 20, 2010 at 10:42 am #

    I think you meant Namby-Pamby, ASSHOLE!
    No Myrtle, I meant exactly what I typed. Try googling “mamby pamby land commercial” and watch a video of a great Geico commercial. It fits Ms Mamby Pamby to a T.
    Second, why have you called me an ASSHOLE?
    1. Because I have called Ms Mamby Pamby “Ms Mamby Pamby? or
    2. Because I paraphrased Ms Mamby Pamby’s comment in a very negative way to highlight the utter insensitivity of the original comment?
    BTW, I’m glad to see you have broken free of the mental constraints that would normally have you call me *SSHOLE. After all these years you realize you’re allowed to say a BAD word.

  339. Qshtik August 20, 2010 at 11:45 am #

    I wonder how many of the people … don’t understand how Muslims are angered by the presence of the U.S. military in their countries
    I can’t speak for others but I understand perfectly “how Muslims are angered by the presence of the U.S. military in their countries.” So the fact that they’ve killed thousands of our troops, not to mention hundreds of thousands of their own people in the process, makes perfect sense. What I don’t understand is how the intense desire of muslims to throw us out of their countries is somehow, in your mind, an argument in favor of the GZ Mosque. Sounds like a non sequitur to me.
    I’m glad to see our “combat troops” have exited Iraq and I’ll be ecstatic if and when the other 50,000 troops leave too. We need to leave these people alone to resume killing one another without our interference like in the good old days under Saddam. It’s none of our friggin business.

  340. mika. August 20, 2010 at 11:56 am #

    I do NOT agree with you that science and logic
    form a FULL system of “mental hygiene”.
    I agree with that. There’s music, art, philosophy, aesthetics, leisure, culture, etc. I’m just saying that we need more resources and minds allocated to science. Btw, when I said you, I didn’t mean you personally, but rather as a royal you – you Buddhists, Sufis, Lubavichers, etc.

  341. Qshtik August 20, 2010 at 12:30 pm #

    With one pill left in each bottle my new 90 day supply showed up in the mail yesterday. The take-away is that stirring up a shitstorm can work. Don’t sit idly by and let them shit on you … speak up.

  342. asoka August 20, 2010 at 12:48 pm #

    “And Asoka, I’ll check out the Caterpillar thing – that could be good news.”
    Damn straight it’s good news. Just like increases in industrial production and housing starts are good news. They may not be increasing as fast as some would like, but the fact they are increasing, and not decreasing, says we are not in a depression.
    In a depression industrial production and housing starts would be decreasing. We are not in an economic depression.

  343. San Jose Mom 51 August 20, 2010 at 1:13 pm #

    My dog has no reaction to Fedex. Our neighborhood is steamed at Fedex because one of their trucks mowed down a neighbor’s labrador while speeding down our street. Yes, “Buddy” was off-leash playing with kids in the front yard, but if the fedex guy wasn’t such a speed demon, Buddy might have had a chance. Fedex didn’t even apologize.
    As for the depression, as it effects my neighborhood. To more houses–about three blocks away are in default. East San Jose has been hit much harder than my South San Jose neighborhood, but gee, this is scary and sad.

  344. wagelaborer August 20, 2010 at 1:16 pm #

    Hi Diogen, glad to have you back.
    I think that you misunderstood my post.
    My point was that when society breaks down, MANY people become violent. I’m not siding with either, I just know that most of us don’t have the means to become Bullock. I wish to avoid the situation by cooperating with my fellow Americans to build a better society for all.
    I, personally, have been threatened by two of my co-workers. I have been trying to prepare for TLE for a long time. I have land, trees, chickens, goats, etc.
    We talk about the coming depression a fair amount at work.
    One of my co-workers told me that he and his brother weren’t stockpiling food, they were stockpiling ammunition, so that they could just take other people’s food.
    One of my co-workers told me that he would come to my house, take my property, and kill me, skin me and hang my skin on a post outside “as a warning”.
    I argued with him that that was a dumb-ass warning, that most people would think it should be the other way around. (As JHK, plus other posters here have fantasized).
    So, of course, I occasionally bring up his threat (because I’m still pissed off about it).
    He stands by it. Daddy was a Green Beret, brother is a mercenary in Iraq, he’s some sort of veteran, and, of course, good Christian.
    So I know people who will be the thugs JHK fantasizes about.
    But, here’s the thing. I am in no danger from them as long as they have a job.
    I want everyone to have work and an income and a decent standard of living, so that all of us will be safe from the ones who feel entitled to kill for food.
    And, of course, that’s not me. I will probably starve quietly, like the millions starving to death right now in the world, unless I’m murdered first.
    So, you missed my point. I hope I’ve clarified it.
    And my other point, of course, is that people in the US HAVE invaded other people’s home and threatened them with harm. Actually, have killed, tortured, kicked down the doors to their houses, and driven them from their homes.
    So many people here WOULD do that, HAVE done that and are “supported” by the flag-wavers here.

  345. wagelaborer August 20, 2010 at 1:23 pm #

    I enjoy your posts, Myrtlemay. You have a way with words.
    I work in an ER. We get people all the time who have teeth literally rotting out of their mouths. Swollen jaws, pus dripping, it’s really horrible.
    Dentists won’t see them unless they have cash. So they show up at the ER and we give them penicillin and codiene, and tell them to go to a dentist.
    My co-worker (the one stockpiling ammunition) comment about one of them was “Why doesn’t he buy a toothbrush?”
    The other day we had a guy come in who worked for a carnival, had heat exhaustion and was admitted to a hospital 40 miles away. His boss left him there and moved the carnival on.
    He walked 40 miles in 2 days and showed up at our ER.
    My co-worker’s comment? “That’s what he gets for working for a carnival”.

  346. asoka August 20, 2010 at 1:41 pm #

    Standard & Poor’s Supercomposite Machinery Index, which includes Deere & Co. and Caterpillar Inc., has climbed 10 percent since the end of June, compared with a 4.7 percent gain in the S&P 500 Index.
    Machinery? 10 percent increase? Outperforming S&P 500 stocks?
    What is machinery used for?
    Production… in the private sector.
    The USA manufacturing sector is not dead, it is quite alive.
    If we were in a depression, the Machinery Index would not be CLIMBING 10 percent.

  347. asoka August 20, 2010 at 1:46 pm #

    J.M. Smucker Co.’s net income was $102.9 million, up 5 percent during the quarter.
    Coffee revenue rose 7 percent during the first fiscal quarter.
    I guess things aren’t so bad that people can’t have a cup of coffee… and put jam on their toast.

  348. asoka August 20, 2010 at 1:51 pm #

    Ross Devol, the Executive Director of Economic Research, at the Milken Institute, a non-partisan think tank based in Santa Monica, California, believes “a return to modest but sustainable growth is close at hand.”
    In his latest paper “From Recession to Recovery: Analyzing America’s Return to Growth”, Devol’s forecasts include a strong recovery in business investment in equipment, particularly in IT and software, more robust U.S. exports driven by emerging-market demand and policy, a more upbeat consumer and record low long-term interest rates.
    All of which will induce the U.S. to add 3.1 million jobs in 2011 and another 2.6 million in 2012, translating into real GDP growth of 3.7 percent in 2011, and then 3.8 percent in 2012.

  349. asoka August 20, 2010 at 1:55 pm #

    For everyone who has allowed the media to freak you out about the debt, here is an article showing that
    the USA is in the top three nations with the “safest” debt.
    So, calm down, the USA economy is not on the verge of collapse after all.

  350. San Jose Mom 51 August 20, 2010 at 2:15 pm #

    You’ve had two threats from work? Good grief, Are these guys in the healthcare profession?
    Being born into a Mormon family, there is a long-standing joke that a non-mormon’s storage, in case of emergency, consistes of two items: 1. A mormon church directory 2. shotgun.
    Gallows humor, I know.

  351. asoka August 20, 2010 at 2:16 pm #

    Here’s the conventional wisdom: Oil was made from the slow crushing of ancient plants (and dinosaurs!) under the Earth over millions of years. That’s why we call it “fossil fuel,” and that’s why it’s not a renewable resource — the supply is finite, and we’re reaching the peak of that supply.
    That’s the conventional wisdom. But it’s wrong.
    We can actually make gasoline (as well as diesel and jet fuel) from sustainable sources, including fast-growing grasses, wood waste and even algae (I know, it sounds gross). The research is far along, and it’s actively being pursued not only in university labs, but in well-funded corporate projects.
    According to Dr. Lance Lobban, director of the University of Oklahoma School of Chemical, Biological and Materials Engineering, “green” fuel can be a big part of the world’s energy future. “Most biomass-based fuels can’t currently compete economically with $50 per barrel oil,” Dr. Lobban says. “But as oil becomes more expensive, and as it becomes more important to limit greenhouse gas emissions, we will look at ‘green gasoline’ because it would be essentially carbon neutral — its source is plants which remove CO2 from the atmosphere as they grow.”

  352. asoka August 20, 2010 at 2:22 pm #

    As a follow-up on the price of crude oil: Crude for September delivery lost 84 cents, or 1.1%, to $73.59 a barrel on the New York Mercantile Exchange. This week, oil has lost 2.4%.
    A close around these levels would be the lowest since July 6, when oil closed at $71.98 a barrel. Oil has closed down in eight of the past nine sessions.
    Down. Price of oil is down.

  353. asia August 20, 2010 at 2:37 pm #

    re dogs and yr buddists near boulder:
    i knew a fruitarian human who died…and another who nearly died….o those belief systems

  354. Al Klein August 20, 2010 at 2:54 pm #

    You work with some really nice people, Wagelaborer! Especially the one who threatened to kill you and hang your skin up as a message. Yes, these are the thugs that JHK opines will come out of the woodwork as things go sour. But in my experience though these thugs are dangerous, they are generally dangerous only in packs. And, generally, they don’t generally have any guts – “yellow” is the word. Because people who really have guts don’t usually talk about it. In other words, the more noisily macho, the more gutless. I would also say if the SHTF, these macho types will need to look out for another type of individual. This “other type” is very quiet and will methodically and coldly “pick off” the macho types without the slightest reservation. The macho types make very easy targets because they are boisterous, loud and full of themselves, so they do not pay careful attention to their surroundings. So the macho types should pay heed to the quiet ones. But they won’t, so they will ultimately be eradicated as civility takes hold once again, which it will.

  355. San Jose Mom 51 August 20, 2010 at 3:45 pm #

    Some Buddhists I know are vegetarian, most are not. Not much in the way of fruits and vegetables up in Tibet, right? During the long winter, I’m sure they survive on Yaks or something.
    Nevertheless, it’s better to kill a chicken than a cow. I eat red meat in small portions. I make of point of never wasting meat.

  356. Al Klein August 20, 2010 at 3:49 pm #

    “…if we were to stumble into a post-breakdown period, what skills would you have that make you, personally, valuable to a society? These can be developed as a hobby now, while there is still time…”
    Wise words, Old Soldier, wise words.

  357. The Mook August 20, 2010 at 4:01 pm #

    The reason some guys go off on it is because it is R. Lee Ermey. He was the Sargeant in “Full Metal Jacket”. War movie buffs worship him.

  358. CaptSpaulding August 20, 2010 at 4:03 pm #

    I’ll be practicing some skills in six days, ’cause that’s when Burning Man starts in the Black Rock Desert 100 mi north of Reno. Anybody else going?

  359. Qshtik August 20, 2010 at 4:17 pm #

    the one who threatened to kill you and hang your skin up as a message.
    Al, this guy would do no such thing. Don’t you get it? The guy is sick right up to here (around eye-level) with Wage’s “Commie pinko fag”* talk and welcomes the opportunity to say something outrageous** and threatening right to her face with zero fear of arrest. What he’s really saying, using “when TSHTF” for cover, is “I don’t like you and your welfare state one damn bit so don’t be expecting an Xmas card this December.”
    * Slang used in the 60’s and 70’s referring to hippies that protested.
    ** If Wage was a college professor the guy would be saying that when TSHTF he’d be killing all “the pointy-headed liberals.”

  360. Qshtik August 20, 2010 at 5:08 pm #

    Burning Man
    Cap, I never heard of it till you mentioned it but I did a google/wiki and read all about it. What started out free later got to be not so free and now tickets are $210-$350. Last year attendance was 43,400, down from 49,600 in 2008 due to the recession. So let’s say attendance drops again to 40,000, the economy sucking as it does, and avg ticket price is $280 ((210+350)/2)= 280 that all comes to $11.2 million. Somebody’s got a good thing going there.
    As far as purpose for the event goes, there doesn’t seem to be much other than to participate. I’m guessing a lot of people are there to smoke pot and see if they can “get lucky.” Have fun!

  361. Qshtik August 20, 2010 at 5:31 pm #

    Down. Price of oil is down.
    We can always count on Asoka’s analysis to be as shallow as a plum pudding.
    Asoka, you chirp the above words as though lower oil prices are necessarily a good thing when what it probably means is the economy is so bad that oil demand is dropping rather precipitously … not that supply is going up and peak oil is BS.

  362. ctemple August 20, 2010 at 6:32 pm #

    What I would like to see, and I don’t have great hopes for this, is a revolution if things get really terrible. I’m talking something like France in the 1790’s.
    I would hope the working classes and poor in this country instead of blaming each other, could bring some of the free traders and war mongers, who in my mind have wrecked much of this society, to justice. The idle rich have gotten away with far too much, and that is most of them, so called captains of industry, banksters, inherited money, show business idiots, muscle head athletes, crooked politicians, and defense contractors.

  363. progressorconserve August 20, 2010 at 7:00 pm #

    You work with a couple of wackadoodles.
    I’ve taken a couple of death threats before, so I’ll give you some unsolicited advice.
    Don’t put up with shit like that, anymore.
    I know you like to argue. 🙂 And I can picture you PO’ed and bringing it up trying to change the guy’s mind – or whatever. But somebody who will make a statement like that to your face is not going to be swayed by logic or dialog.
    Next time he mentions it you need to tell him in no uncertain terms that you will no longer tolerate anything that is even *vaguely* threatening from him – ever again.
    Then you’ll have to back it up. I picture you able to go to HR or law enforcement without fear.
    Or you could pick up an IV pump and whack the guy in the gonads with it.
    You gotta do what works for you. 😉

  364. progressorconserve August 20, 2010 at 7:20 pm #

    I have days like that, where I would just like to KICK OVER THE GAME BOARD, reset the economy, and let the Country start over.
    Happens to me a lot if I watch more than about 30 minutes of Fox News in a single day. 🙂
    Mainly, I think about *revolution* to benefit my kids and grandkids – I’m pretty well set personally, and would probably be more harmed than helped by it.
    Honestly, though, I’m very sure that as long as the power stays on and the food keeps coming – there will not be anything like major civil disobedience in the US.
    And the huge majority of citizens are better off economically than most of the rest of the world….so far….
    They are even much better off than my own parents generation…so far.
    We just need some honest to God manufacturing reestablished. Something like the furniture industry in North Carolina – which was sold out to the Chinese 1995 to 2005.
    So now the major industries in sections of North Carolina are cooking meth’ and living on a Government paycheck of one form or another.
    I don’t see our current crop of gutless politicians and Aristocratic Elite business sell-outs establishing new manufacturing like that, though.

  365. messianicdruid August 20, 2010 at 8:38 pm #

    “Private “religious” beliefs should be kept private.”
    When does “You shall not murder.” become public policy? At 51 per cent acceptance?

  366. messianicdruid August 20, 2010 at 8:57 pm #

    “It is precisely because money loses value over time that the economy booms.”
    If the money loses value, where does the value go? If the money increases in value, where does the additional value come from?

  367. mika. August 20, 2010 at 10:19 pm #

    That’s not a religious belief. That’s a code of law. A code of law that should be judged on its own merit. It should not be conflated with anything else, especially god based philosophical systems that can be summed up as little more than criminal insanity.

  368. diogen August 20, 2010 at 10:56 pm #

    Wage, thanks for the clarification. Nice guys you work with. But it’s a good thing they warned you, you’ll just have to take them out before they get to ya! 🙂
    I’m guessing (I could be wrong though) they have a knee-jerk reaction to your Socialist leanings, or your free-thinking ways (real Americans, aren’t they?). I suggest placing human skulls on your fence posts to let them know they’re out of their league 🙂 Discharging large-caliber weapons on your property at random times would also help to put the fear of God into them!!!!!!!!!
    Years ago I used to work with a guy who repeated often that had it not been for his fear of God’s vengeance and the final judgement, he’d rob, rape and kill to his heart’s content. Good thing we have Christianity to keep guys like that on the straight and narrow (although the fear of God didn’t keep him from cheating on his wife, go figger…)

  369. diogen August 20, 2010 at 11:05 pm #

    Interesting. “Today, the total sovereign debt of the 20 highest rated countries is over $15 trillion.”
    Who, besides China, is holding that debt?
    This reminds me of the notion that when you owe a bank $10,000 the bank has you by the neck. When you owe a bank $10,000 you have the bank by the neck.
    Funny how that works…

  370. diogen August 20, 2010 at 11:19 pm #

    I meant “When you owe a bank $10,000,000 you have the bank by the neck.”

  371. Qshtik August 20, 2010 at 11:29 pm #

    This should be of interest to Tripp and others growing their own food.

  372. wagelaborer August 21, 2010 at 2:05 am #

    I didn’t take them as literal death threats. Both were during conversations such as we have here, speculating on life after TSHTF.
    As I stated before, there is no way either of these guys would ever do anything like that as long as they have jobs.
    And it wasn’t macho bluster, either. It was conversation!
    I doubt it had anything to do with my politics, either. It was that I have food, and they were talking about what they would do to get it. And, actually, when the one guy talked about skinning and impaling me, I called upon my co-worker who used to work for Ralph Nader to support me. What did he do? Started talking about Vlad the Impaler, and getting into gory details.
    Which also pissed me off, and yes, I still bring it up to him when I’m mad.
    Yeah, men can be assholes, or jackasses, as you prefer.
    Actually, I brought up my divide the work necessary among the available workers idea to the impaler guy (a different time), and he looked suspicious. “That sounds like socialism”, he said.
    “Whatever!” I said. “Doesn’t it make sense?”
    He reluctantly agreed. So I don’t think it’s my politics.
    Sometimes, he’ll ask me for my opinion on some news controversy. He always says that he knows he won’t agree with me, but he wants to hear what I think about it, because he knows it will be different from anything he’s heard on the TV.
    And it always is!
    The other one, the ammunition guy, kills all the time. He loves to hunt.
    But, he has a nest of pregnant female rattlesnakes on his property, and he’s all about protecting them! He had the DNR guy out and they’ve got a plan to protect them until they give birth and then move them out of his shed.
    So, you never can tell about people.
    The conclusions I draw from Iraq and Yugoslavia and Rwanda and Darfur and the USSR is that as long as people are fed and housed, they will get along.
    But when times get tough, they will start killing each other.

  373. wagelaborer August 21, 2010 at 2:13 am #

    My Dad’s side of the family were Mormons, SJmom.
    I went to my Dad’s birthday party in Feb, and almost all of my cousins showed up. I’m fond of them, but of course we don’t agree on religion.
    That’s OK, we’re still family.

  374. asoka August 21, 2010 at 2:16 am #

    Here is the link describing in detail the debt of the 20 countries:

  375. wagelaborer August 21, 2010 at 2:27 am #

    When the sonofabitch Reagan was president, and times were getting tough, my mom said, “If things continue this bad, we’re all going to have to be servants again”.
    Shortly after she said that, I read an article in which the author said “If times continue this bad, we’re all going to have servants again”.
    Wow. What a class difference! My mom pictured us as servants, and the reporter pictured herself as a servant employer.
    That is why I was struck that most commenters seem to picture themselves as gentry.
    Really? Is that your class background? Because I just don’t think that many people will end up with a mansion, servants, imported luxuries, and people willing to obey their every order.
    Just saying…

  376. Eleuthero August 21, 2010 at 3:33 am #

    I applaud optimism if it doesn’t appear
    like hidden pessimism looking for any
    reason to be optimistic.
    A one-month statistic is essentially
    meaningless. On the other hand, macro
    numbers that have been relentlessly
    bad for a couple of years and are still
    awful, like UNEMPLOYMENT CLAIMS, are
    to be taken more seriously.
    No one WANTS a Depression. It destroys
    pensions, jobs, savings, and hope.
    However, optimism, to be credible, must
    be based on a very sound foundation.
    Look at Wall Street, Asoka. They are
    looking for ANY reason to celebrate one
    good number but then when it is overridden
    by one bad number that has legs, they
    Pessimism is the recognition that things
    are not quite right. This can lead to
    action. Optimism often FORESTALLS action
    in the hope that any badness will simply
    be “wished” away. No. The badness
    simply comes back in a more virulent form
    when we are not objective about reality.
    Wishing doesn’t fix anything.
    This does NOT say that the pessimists are
    always right. That’s obviously absurd.
    However, when it comes to the US economy
    right here, right now, I’m afraid the
    pessimists are the more objective folks
    at the moment.
    That’s the irony of Wall Street. They
    want people to TRADE and they create a
    kind of bad clownish “optimism”. When
    the last struts of such flimsy optimism
    are kicked away the resulting pessimism
    is far darker than if we had faced reality
    in the first place.

  377. Funzel August 21, 2010 at 11:28 am #

    Life as a pessimist certainly has it’s benefits.
    I am very seldom disappointed.

  378. ozone August 21, 2010 at 11:46 am #

    “Pessimism is the recognition that things
    are not quite right. This can lead to
    action. Optimism often FORESTALLS action
    in the hope that any badness will simply
    be “wished” away. No. The badness
    simply comes back in a more virulent form
    when we are not objective about reality.
    Wishing doesn’t fix anything.” -E.
    Sure it will! Just ask Q., he’ll tell you that Wall St. is on firm ground and that growing food for yourself is a waste of time and energy, because everything is hunky-dory with industrial agriculture and its’ distribution.
    Tell ya what, Q.; you bet your way (something for nothing), and I’ll bet mine (labor). I’m certainly not going to convince you of ANYTHING. We all pay the piper that we have ourselves hired. (Your bill is just gonna hurt a lot more than mine, since I’ll probably have some actual commodity to show for it.)
    Good luck!

  379. asoka August 21, 2010 at 11:53 am #

    You have just lumped in and dishonored every cop, fireman and sailor who has NOT pumped bullets into an unarmed civilian.

    I did not take an oath to serve and protect. I did not received paychecks at taxpayer expense. I did not pump 41 bullets into an unarmed innocent man.
    Every cop, fireman and sailor has been dishonored by the cowards and murderers who violated their oath to serve and protect.

  380. asoka August 21, 2010 at 11:55 am #

    You have just lumped in and dishonored every cop, fireman and sailor who has NOT pumped bullets into an unarmed civilian.

    I did not take an oath to serve and protect. I did not receive paychecks at taxpayer expense. I did not pump 41 bullets into an unarmed innocent man.
    Every cop, fireman and sailor has been dishonored by these “public servants” who are cowards, by these “public servants” turned murderers who violated their oath to serve and protect.

  381. messianicdruid August 21, 2010 at 12:40 pm #

    “That’s not a religious belief. That’s a code of law.”
    I’m glad to hear you say that. A code of law is made by a lawmaker, which is another word for g-o-d. Making laws {rules, policies, declarations, constitutions} that others must follow {to be in good standing with the lawmaker} is what g-o-d-s do. The Creator told us not to have any other g-o-d-s before Him. Those who do are obeying an idol {a liar}.
    When a false god makes laws for others a religion is insituted. Secular religions distinguish themselves by pretending there is no Creator.
    When “every man does that which is right in his own eyes” you have every man acting as his own g-o-d. On an individual level men call this freedom. On a societal level it becomes chaos as their differences increase. Little gods at war with one another.
    Then {to preserve peace/security} the little gods make alliances, select leaders {a little god they can all agree with}, to make up some rules {laws} for their society. Inevitably, these alliances come into conflict.
    Where the Spirit of YHWH is {where all covenant -an agreement based on law – together to keep the Laws of the Creator God} there is Liberty.

  382. CaptSpaulding August 21, 2010 at 12:45 pm #

    Hi Qshtik. Actually, it’s an art festival, and an experiment in community. Some of the sculptures are many stories tall, and take quite a bit of assembly. Our group from Minnesota (4 of us) formed a jugband with homemade instruments, cigar box guitar, cookie tin banjo, jug & washboard. We called ourselves the Merry Merkins, (look it up)and performed randomly around the city. That was our contribution to the event. There was of course some herb usage and other activities, but I mostly drank beer. It was a harmless fun time & I look forward to repeating the experience. Thanks for your best wishes.

  383. Qshtik August 21, 2010 at 1:28 pm #

    Sure it will! Just ask Q., he’ll tell you that Wall St. is on firm ground and that growing food for yourself is a waste of time and energy, because everything is hunky-dory with industrial agriculture and its’ distribution.
    Oz, where on earth do you get such ideas as stated above? What do you mean about Wall St being on firm ground? Does that mean you think I’m bullish on the direction of stock prices? If so, why is one of my larger holdings SPXU which is an inverse ETF which is a bet on the S&P 500 going down. i.e. a way to win if the market falls. And why do I own some gold and silver stocks? The fact is, being the born pessimist I am, I always feel Wall St is on unfirm ground.
    And what’s up with the “hunky-dory with industrial agriculture” remark? I posted a link for interested parties to read. Personally I’m ignorant and agnostic on the topic.
    Also, it is not my opinion “that growing food for yourself is a waste of time and energy.” For those whose living circumstances make it possible I say go for it. I happen to live on a corner at the intersection of two busy roads on a very small piece of sloping land shored up on one side with 3 tiers of retaining walls (all built by me). There are 5 huge oak trees which shade most of the property in the summer so there’s a lack of sunlight for whatever crops require a lot of it. The soil is terrible – all shale (clay hardened to nearly the consistence of rock). My wife does grow various herbs which go straight into dinner salads.
    Although I own my home more than 50% of the population of the town lives in apartments so they don’t have the option of using the surrounding land any way they please. Nor is there much “surrounding land” as the town is quite densely packed.
    The contention of the NYT link (that discussed Locavores), I believe, is that there’s a lot of miscalculation (that has become gospel) of energy expense involved in the transportation of industrially grown food. I, personally, have no experience or knowledge to judge one way or another but I posted the link for folks like Tripp, who have thought long and hard about such things, to consider.
    Your inclination to take offense at things I say, or links I post, seems to have a hair trigger on it.
    P.S. Regarding its’ distribution be advised that no apostrophe is required after the s to form the possessive. Its is the possessive of it. No doubt that piece of information will piss you off as well.

  384. Qshtik August 21, 2010 at 1:35 pm #

    Our group from Minnesota
    Where in Minnesota? I spent 3 years in Duluth in the Air Force. We sometimes called it DULLuth.

  385. Qshtik August 21, 2010 at 2:28 pm #

    I did not take an oath to serve and protect.
    Lets assume, for arguments sake, that up till the moment the murderous cops pumped 41 bullets into the innocent man, none of the cops had ever shot anyone in their capacity as policemen. Should the paychecks they received up to that point be considered “living on the government dole?”
    Do you recognize the operation of police forces in towns and cities everywhere as a legitimate function of state and local governments? If so, how can you say the people who perform that function are “living on the government dole?”
    Likewise, is it not legitimate for a nation to maintain a military force to protect the country? Are people involved in that activity “living on the government dole?” Or is it that the paychecks of all government employees whose capacity has a military nature (police and soldiers) may be considered legitimate and worthy but only till they shoot someone? Then their pay has been “a government dole.”
    I suspect that deep down you believe the only paychecks in BIG GOVERNMENT that should not be considered “a dole” are those paid to people engaged in “spreading the wealth around.”

  386. Qshtik August 21, 2010 at 4:03 pm #

    arguments sake
    Make that argument’s sake

  387. progressorconserve August 21, 2010 at 5:18 pm #

    OK, Wage,
    I’m guessing I overestimated the seriousness of the threat. Misunderestimation (in the “words” of W) happens all the time on this thread. 🙂
    You must be a hoot to work with, though, Wage. I’ve been in a lot of BS & whizzing contests through the years but I’ve never been on the giving or the receiving end of a verbal *skinning and impaling* competition.
    I was threatened once or twice by my parent’s and their parent’s generation, “I’ll skin you alive, boy, if you don’t behave.” But I think that’s a different level of threat.
    Anyway, you mentioned again how “anti-hunting” you were some weeks ago. Something to the effect, paraphrasing, “Hunters show up in my ER and they are crying and sniveling….”
    I was all loaded up to let fly at you about that one night, but the tread drifted off in another direction and I didn’t get around to it.
    A hunter shows up in your ER and the following dialog takes place:
    Something to the effect, “Wait a minute lady…UMMM, DAMN, Woman, I’m sorry, I MEANT Woman.
    “Wait, I’m telling you I wasn’t huntin’ for Bambi; I was hunting for Bambi’s Daddy!”
    “And does it always take you 10 needle sticks with an 8 gauge needle just to draw blood??”
    “And why are you trying to get blood out of the sole of my foot, anyway??? WAAAA…HELP ME!!”
    Honestly, I am a lifelong hunter, though not nearly as “hard core” as I was in my younger days. I’ve got a couple of good stories I’ll share when JHK’s blog for the week justifies.
    I the meantime, I wouldn’t be “skeered* to show up in that ER of yours, with you on duty, whether I’ve been hunting or not.
    Just put down those hugeass needles, Woman! 😉

  388. Qshtik August 21, 2010 at 7:05 pm #

    Today’s NY Times contains an article titled “Anti-Islam Protest in U.S. Seen as Lift for Extremists.” A short paragraph in the INTERNATIONAL column of the INSIDE THE TIMES section provides the gist of this article as follows:
    Mosque Backlash in U.S. Aids Radicals, Experts Say
    Some counterterrorism experts say the anti-Muslim sentiment that has saturated the airwaves and blogs in the debate over plans for an Islamic center in Lower Manhattan near ground zero is playing into the hands of extremeists by bolstering their claims that the United States is hostile to Islam.
    When I read this an old cartoon popped into my mind: Scrawled on a crummy public restroom mirror is a message: Give to Mental Health Week or I’ll kill you.

  389. Qshtik August 21, 2010 at 7:08 pm #

    Make that extremists

  390. mika. August 21, 2010 at 8:04 pm #

    Nothing happens by accident. EVERYTHING is carefully planned and manipulated into being.
    The NYT = CIA. The CIA be shilling for the mosque. Why? Let’s see if you can rub two brain cells together and come up with an answer.

  391. mika. August 21, 2010 at 8:07 pm #

    A code of law is made by a lawmaker, which is another word for g-o-d.
    You obviously don’t have a drop of american blood in you, do you ahmed.

  392. ozone August 21, 2010 at 8:12 pm #

    “If so, why is one of my larger holdings SPXU which is an inverse ETF which is a bet on the S&P 500 going down. i.e. a way to win if the market falls. And why do I own some gold and silver stocks? The fact is, being the born pessimist I am, I always feel Wall St is on unfirm ground.” -Q.
    Ahhh; a GOOD bet against, eh? “Something for nothing”, is the operative phrase, and you appear to be an operator. ;o) There’s nothing productive for society in this kind of behavior; it’s all smoke and air. Pretend it’s a “legitimate” exercise and creates “value” all you want; it doesn’t make it so.
    “And what’s up with the “hunky-dory with industrial agriculture” remark? I posted a link for interested parties to read. Personally I’m ignorant and agnostic on the topic.” -Q.
    Although you keep protesting your disinterested ignorance, I’m less and less convinced of it as time (and postings) go along. Just my personal alarms going off, of course, and you may call “bullshit” on ’em anytime (as per usual), but my suspicions are being aroused. It’s not that I care what you may do, it’s that I feel you’re overly casual about the future, and tend to denigrate those who don’t share your “vision” or “values”. I’m seeing misdirection and distractions. …And my natural paranoia sees that as purposeful. (I hope I’m explaining myself satisfactorily, okay?)
    That is all…

  393. ozone August 21, 2010 at 8:15 pm #

    (Sorry, the above was supposed to be a reply to Q.)

  394. ozone August 21, 2010 at 8:23 pm #

    “P.S. Regarding its’ distribution be advised that no apostrophe is required after the s to form the possessive. Its is the possessive of it. No doubt that piece of information will piss you off as well.” -Q.
    Not a’tall. ;o)
    You do it your way, and I’ll do it mine. It’s not “incorrect” and makes the possessive abundantly clear, does it not?

  395. messianicdruid August 21, 2010 at 9:02 pm #

    “You obviously don’t have a drop of american blood in you, do you ahmed.”
    Don’t try to change the subject. The perfect law of liberty cannot be improved upon. Every attempt has ended, is ending, or will end in abject failure.

  396. Qshtik August 21, 2010 at 9:41 pm #

    The CIA be shilling for the mosque.
    Mika, keep up this kind of nonsense and they’ll be taking you away to join EightM at the Greystone Institute for the Non-Criminally Insane.

  397. mika. August 21, 2010 at 9:57 pm #

    Now why would they be taking me away if what I say is untrue?
    “The CIA owns everyone of any significance in the? major media” – William Colby, Former CIA Director

  398. myrtlemay August 21, 2010 at 10:42 pm #

    You are probably unaware of this, but ‘Q’ knows EVERYTHING. As a matter of fact, he thinks he owns this thread. It’s really “The Qshtik Show”. He obviously has nothing else to do with his time but to sit at his computer, fantasize about “doing Asocka” and ‘filosophizing’ about his rampant meanderings. It shouldn’t take you, or anyone else with any remote amount of intellect, long to understand that ‘Q’ is really an old, highly closeted, over-blown, tired, worn-out, boring, self-important, and BORIN WINDBAG…I bet he bores his wife too, the poor little thing! So don’t let him get your panties in a wad. The guys best friend is a hand mirror and his right hand. (a “short” sort of romance, if you will:)

  399. myrtlemay August 21, 2010 at 10:51 pm #

    Oh, mercy me, I meant, BORING WINDBAG! Heavens to bitsy, where DID I leave my needlepoint?

  400. mika. August 21, 2010 at 10:53 pm #

    Maybe. But one thing’s for sure. He cares. From my perspective, that’s important. And I know he cares, otherwise he wouldn’t be so anal about the use and abuse of “Shakespeare’s english”.

  401. Qshtik August 21, 2010 at 10:55 pm #

    There’s nothing productive for society in this kind of behavior; it’s all smoke and air.
    I prefer the expression “smoke and mirrors” but regardless …
    Oz, how do you make your living? … work for a company or self employed? Do you spend all you earn or do you save some for retirement? If you save, where and in what form do you keep those savings? a 401K? an IRA? cash in a tin can buried in the backyard? Whatever form it may be in, what if anything do you do to keep it from eroding toward worthlessness over time? If you have a 401K or an IRA you are “playing the market” whether you realize it or not. If you keep cash in a tin can you’re making an implicit judgement that Bernanke is a genius who will keep inflation near zero for a long period of time. Good luck wit dat.
    BTW, why do you feel my actions in life must be “productive for society?” Why can’t they be harmless to society and productive for me? It’s called “freedom.” I love watching how welfare statists such as Asoka, Wage and yourself get into a holier-than-thou snit when someone has the audacity to say they are concerned only with themselves and their families. I help society by not making society my keeper.

  402. Qshtik August 21, 2010 at 11:03 pm #

    Heavens to bitsy
    It’s Betsy

  403. mika. August 21, 2010 at 11:36 pm #

    The Bankruptcy of American Politics

  404. ozone August 21, 2010 at 11:48 pm #

    If I’d have meant “smoke and mirrors” (which implies “misdirection”) I would have said so. You prefer it, so be it, but it did not fit the context.
    What I do for my money and what I do with it is none of your bid’ness. Howsomever, it’s not in “the market”.
    “I love watching how welfare statists such as Asoka, Wage and yourself get into a holier-than-thou snit when someone has the audacity to say they are concerned only with themselves and their families. I help society by not making society my keeper.” -Q.
    Here is exactly the type of derision I was referring to. I’m suddenly holier-than-thou; throwing a snit; and a welfare statist. You don’t know that.
    Well then, here’s something I don’t know, but am willing to surmise about you. You’re a non-productive parasite who has made his living (and pension $) off of the labors of others.

  405. Eleuthero August 22, 2010 at 12:17 am #

    Hello, PorC. Do you live in NC?? When
    I retire next June and move out of CA,
    I was thinking of going to the Asheville
    or Hendersonville areas. However, you
    made NC sound like it has definitely
    seen better days.
    Would you paint the whole state with the
    broad brush of your post (i.e., meth-heads
    and people on the dole) or is it really
    highly dependent on the region within
    Just curious.

  406. Qshtik August 22, 2010 at 12:47 am #

    ‘Q’ is really an old, highly closeted, over-blown, tired, worn-out, boring, self-important, and BORIN WINDBAG
    You have to admit, I certainly have a knack for getting under the skin of old bags (“it was the bottom of the 5th and the bags were loaded”) the previous one being AbbeysBooks who could not post a comment without telling us we must “study Faucault.” Not merely read, but study.
    P.S. Using the word “boring” twice in one sentence is boring.

  407. Qshtik August 22, 2010 at 1:21 am #

    Oz, you feel derided that I referred to you as a welfare statist yet here are your words from an earlier comment:
    There’s nothing productive for society in this kind of behavior
    You think I must work for the benefit of society. It couldn’t be any clearer. You are a “spread the wealth around” kinda quy, like Obama, Asoka and Wage. The one minor difference is they openly admit it but for some reason you want to deny it. I think you know it’s fucked up but you’re conflicted. The left-wingers have drilled it in your head that if you want to produce wealth for yourself and your family and not for all of society your a piece of shit.
    BTW, if you have any money at all it is either in the market or affected by the market. Absolutely positively can’t be avoided.

  408. CaptSpaulding August 22, 2010 at 8:25 am #

    I live about 25 miles north of Mpls, although I lived in Mpls for many years.

  409. lbendet August 22, 2010 at 9:44 am #

    The Myer Lansky Special: The US as Murder Inc.
    The hero from WWII made an offer to the world that they couldn’t refuse: Pax Americana and has pushed full-spectrum dominance in areas of military and finance to the tune of non-ending wars and the dissolution of the middle class.
    Listening to Gerald Celente interviewed by Max Keiser this morning made me think about what this country has become and it couldn’t be more depressing.
    This country is being run by Public Enemies of the state and it’s citizenry. Madoff may have been one of the few to pay a price, but everyone from think tanks, academia, media, insurance, banks and heads of state are complicit in this disaster.
    Our media does not connect the dots and when it does it disappears into the ether to be replaced by mindless propaganda that pushes hate to divide the 95% of the population to keep us from focusing on the real issues. Celente points out that even with the extreme weather conditions in the world this summer nobody is talking about Global warming or at least the massive pollution that is spewed into the environment for the sake of making money to the enth degree.
    Note: Last week I was struck at how the PR for BP has absolutely insulted our intelligence! They have the nerve to tell us they are flying planes over the Gulf to look for oil slicks after they used Corexit to hide the oil at the bottom of the gulf. Wow!! There was a great site that spoke about Corexit being used recently at night so nobody could see what they are doing. Hurray for Burson Marsteller, who are most likely behind the BP propaganda, though I can’t prove that yet. Just think they are intricately involved in our politics.
    This interview is one of the best I’ve heard from Celente and it covers the full gamut of what has gone completely out of control. His timeline for deep world wide depression by the way is similar to JHK, by the way.
    He discusses everything from the illusion of hope to the insatiable need of those with multi-billions to make ever more money and how our interest rates are kept low for the speculators. I highly recommend this interview for yourselves at:
    The elite have done so well with Iraq and Afgh. they know they can’t miss with more war…stay tuned for Iran…
    In the vernacular of Sarah Palin: How’s that Paxi-Americani working for you?

  410. lbendet August 22, 2010 at 9:46 am #

    The Myer Lansky Special: The US as Murder Inc.
    The hero from WWII made an offer to the world that they couldn’t refuse: Pax Americana and has pushed full-spectrum dominance in areas of military and finance to the tune of non-ending wars and the dissolution of the middle class.
    Listening to Gerald Celente interviewed by Max Keiser this morning made me think about what this country has become and it couldn’t be more depressing.
    This country is being run by Public Enemies of the state and it’s citizenry. Madoff may have been one of the few to pay a price, but everyone from think tanks, academia, media, insurance, banks and heads of state are complicit in this disaster.
    Our media does not connect the dots and when it does it disappears into the ether to be replaced by mindless propaganda that pushes hate to divide the 95% of the population to keep us from focusing on the real issues. Celente points out that even with the extreme weather conditions in the world this summer nobody is talking about Global warming or at least the massive pollution that is spewed into the environment for the sake of making money to the enth degree.
    Note: Last week I was struck at how the PR for BP has absolutely insulted our intelligence! They have the nerve to tell us they are flying planes over the Gulf to look for oil slicks after they used Corexit to hide the oil at the bottom of the gulf. Wow!! There was a great site that spoke about Corexit being used recently at night so nobody could see what they are doing. Hurray for Burson Marsteller, who are most likely behind the BP propaganda, though I can’t prove that yet. Just think they are intricately involved in our politics.
    This interview is one of the best I’ve heard from Celente and it covers the full gamut of what has gone completely out of control. His timeline for deep world wide depression by the way is similar to JHK, by the way.
    He discusses everything from the illusion of hope to the insatiable need of those with multi-billions to make ever more money and how our interest rates are kept low for the speculators. I highly recommend this interview for yourselves at:
    The elite have done so well with Iraq and Afgh. they know they can’t miss with more war…stay tuned for Iran…
    In the vernacular of Sarah Palin: How’s that Paxi-Americani working for you?

  411. lbendet August 22, 2010 at 10:17 am #

    Oops—-Sorry about the double entry. I shut down Firefox and it still didn’t appear!

  412. Qshtik August 22, 2010 at 11:09 am #

    your a piece of shit.
    Make that you’re

  413. mika. August 22, 2010 at 11:19 am #

    Smoke and mirrors and fascism with a smile:
    “It’s hard to believe that a two-year senator from Chicago with a background in ‘community organizing’ presides over this elaborate and opaque system of imperial rule. He doesn’t, of course. The real leaders remain hidden behind the cloak of democratic government and all of Washington’s phony institutions. Obama is merely a public relations hologram, a friendly face that conceals the machinations of a global Mafia. Other people–whoever they may be–control the levers of power moving the pieces as needed to assure the best outcome for themselves and their constituents.” -Mike Whitney

  414. messianicdruid August 22, 2010 at 11:20 am #

    “A code of law that should be judged on its own merit.”
    Is there any merit to, “You shall not commit murder”?
    Is there any merit to, “You shall not steal”?
    Is there any merit to, “You shall not commit adultery”?
    Is there any merit to, “Honor your parents”?
    Is there any merit to, “And you shall number seven sabbaths of years unto yourselves, seven times seven years; and the space of the seven sabbaths of years shall be unto you forty nine years. THEN you shall cause the trumpet of the Jubilee to sound on the tenth day of the seventh month, in the day of atonement you shall make the trumpet sound throughout all the land. And you shall hallow the fiftieth year, and PROCLAIM LIBERTY throughout all the land unto all the inhabitants thereof: it shall be a Jubilee unto you; AND YE SHALL RETURN EVERY MAN UNTO HIS POSSESSION {all debts cancelled!!}, and ye shall return every man unto his family.”
    This is the only thing that will avoid further oppression and heartache from false g-o-d-s.

  415. myrtlemay August 22, 2010 at 11:21 am #

    Celente makes many good points in this video. Much of what he has predicted has certainly come true. Thanks for bring some lucid points to this thread. It gets so tiresome reading the seemingly endless ramblings of our closeted misanthrope, as he pursues the object of his mis-directed affection for Asocka, with the embarassing vigor that would even cause a member of NAMBLA to blush with shame.

  416. mika. August 22, 2010 at 11:36 am #

    Is there any merit to..
    There’s zero merit of ascribing man made laws to god. A law a basically a contract. A social contract between men. It has nothing to do with god. Further, in the absence of consent, there’s no legitimacy for law, nor any legitimacy for government. This is where we’re basically at. The government mafia operates with zero legitimacy. To gain legitimacy the gov mafia invents false rhetoric and authority to cloak its political bankruptcy, but that game is quickly running its course.
    I’ve posted two link that talk about this, and here they are again:
    The Bankruptcy of American Politics:

  417. mika. August 22, 2010 at 11:37 am #

    A law ^is a basically a contract.

  418. mika. August 22, 2010 at 11:37 am #

    A law ^is basically a contract.

  419. messianicdruid August 22, 2010 at 12:03 pm #

    “…in the absence of consent, there’s no legitimacy for law…”
    I wonder if you would accept this argument from one of your children.

  420. mika. August 22, 2010 at 12:08 pm #

    Men are not children and children are not men.

  421. mika. August 22, 2010 at 12:09 pm #

    The Bankruptcy of American Politics [Lew Rockwell] – mika2k1’s posterous – http://goo.gl/t94J

  422. ozone August 22, 2010 at 12:20 pm #

    “You are a “spread the wealth around” kinda quy, like Obama, Asoka and Wage. The one minor difference is they openly admit it but for some reason you want to deny it.” -Q.
    I got a little chuckle out of that. I don’t consider Obama a spread-the-wealth kinda guy… more like a conceal-the-wealth-and-slide-it-to-my-benefactors kinda guy. ;o) It was easy to see how he was going “to roll” by the list of his contributors, so no false hope dialed up there.
    Asoka and Wage probably have as different a slant in their personal beliefs [and how to implement them] as I may have from yours. So, I’m not sure I’d be “lumping” folks together too much. It might amuse you to construct a “left-wing conspiracy” against yourself, but I don’t think it makes it so.
    “I think you know it’s fucked up but you’re conflicted. The left-wingers have drilled it in your head that if you want to produce wealth for yourself and your family and not for all of society your a piece of shit.” -Q.
    Interesting take on cognitive dissonance, but I believe that the rumblings in my head come from my life experiences and strange personality. If I should happen to feel I’m “a piece of shit” for any reason or another, I’m assured it’s my own doing and thought processes, not some empty dogma. I’m definitely not a follower. Was it Groucho? “I wouldn’t wish to be associated with any club that would have me as a member.” (Or something like that. ;o)
    (BTW, I shouldn’t comment on how you make your living, as it’s really none of my affair, but I don’t think it “creates” anything of value; get me? If it “works” for you, well, there it is.)
    “BTW, if you have any money at all it is either in the market or affected by the market. Absolutely positively can’t be avoided.” -Q.
    Well, the amount of “money” that passes through my hands is pretty paltry, so the market’s effect on me (and vice versa) is likely about the same quantity! As I had said before, “investing” to me, is gathering materials I “think” will come in handy in future. I fear the weather will have more to say about everything than I can even imagine, so all I may do could come to grief anyway. Whataya gonna do?
    BTW, thanks for the reasoned (and fairly reasonable) response; I appreciate that.
    Now on to lbendet’s well-considered comment…

  423. Qshtik August 22, 2010 at 12:29 pm #

    It gets so tiresome
    Prepare to become even more tired. When he returns to the blog with more of his bullshit I’ll be here to debunk it. If I disappear from the blog it probably means I’ve died of heat prostration on my front lawn clutching a still running leaf blower in my right hand.

  424. San Jose Mom 51 August 22, 2010 at 1:44 pm #

    The climate adjustment between Palo Alto and NC is going to be trying. My brother-in-law and family moved to Cary, NC from Corvallis, OR, are still having adjustment problems. They basically live in their air-conditioned house all summer.
    In the early eighties, I did a three-year stint in Houston, TX. One year I had to run the AC (a simple box unit in the window of a 1bd apartment near Rice University) on Thanksgiving while the turkey cooked. Nevertheless, I managed to ride my bike to and from work at the Texas Medical Center.
    But I never adjusted to the humidity and heat.

  425. San Jose Mom 51 August 22, 2010 at 2:37 pm #

    The Iranians announced their new un-manned, long-range bomber today. They call it the “Ambassador of Death.”
    Lovely…that just makes my day.

  426. progressorconserve August 22, 2010 at 2:56 pm #

    I didn’t intend to come across as bashing the whole state of North Carolina in my comments. There are some really nice areas. Greater Charlotte, in particular has a relatively diverse economy and seems to have forward thinking leadership. We have friends who live in a South Carolina suburb of Charlotte, so we know that area pretty well.
    And if you want cooler weather, like SJMom, head to the western end of the state where elevation creates some excellent micro-climates.
    And there is an outstandingly Great Beer Festival in Charlotte that I recommend to anyone who is not an alcoholic.
    In my post I was trying to use “sections” of NC as a referent to the way so much industry in American has been allowed to degrade in the past 15 years.
    I had just spent the morning talking to the manager of a faith-based drug rehabilitation ministry near our house. He was from NC and had been in the furniture industry for 20 years before American companies *FLUSHED* the entire industry away to China. He had been out of furniture manufacturing for 8 years, but he was still amazed and PO’ed at what had happened.
    His words, “We actually GAVE them the engineering information and the quality control procedures. Then they invested in all new hardware. Now the US exports raw wood and scrap metal to China and imports the finished products. We’re like a banana republic!!”
    Then I spent the afternoon with my newly graduated business major son, riding around and looking for him a new car I can cosign for. So he knows all the latest business school indoctrination about how the “consumer economy” works. And I understand the theories, but I just DO NOT BELIEVE that what we’re doing in the US is sustainable – long term. So, he and I had a nice long *rolling debate* for a couple of hours.
    So, maybe I was a little on edge when I posted.
    And I shouldn’t be down on those “who collect a government check in one form or another.” That includes some nice, hard working folks. Soldiers, prison guards, teachers, retirees – you name it.
    Maybe I shouldn’t be down on the meth’ cookers, either. Most of them are pretty harmless if they are not actively guarding their meth’ operation.
    And at least they are producing a real product – that people actually want to buy.
    Wow! I feel a whole lot better, having gotten all this off my chest.
    Hope I didn’t make some of y’all feel worse!!

  427. asia August 22, 2010 at 4:22 pm #

    f@@@ the ny times…
    and ‘ extremeists ‘?????

  428. asia August 22, 2010 at 4:40 pm #

    ‘And nobody seems to mind that Muslims are serving and dying in the United States Armed Forces’
    When they are not busy killing fellow US troops!
    and who is this ‘ nobody ‘ you speak of?
    I MIND!!!!!!!!!!! am i part of yr ‘ consensus?
    ya dishonest windbag.

  429. myrtlemay August 22, 2010 at 5:27 pm #

    windbag-n: an overly talkative person.
    Merriam-Webster’s Desk Dictionary, 1995

  430. latchkeykid August 22, 2010 at 8:55 pm #

    So, I get the last word. Thank god that other asshole didn’t show up to post “first” this time.

  431. messianicdruid August 22, 2010 at 9:21 pm #

    “Men are not children and children are not men.”
    Children want to be adults,
    Adults want to be children,
    Women want to be men,
    Men want to be women,
    Sinners want to be angels,
    Angels want to be sinners,
    And they all want to be g-o-d-s.
    So sayeth the “orphan”.

  432. mika. August 22, 2010 at 10:24 pm #

    So this is the nonsense your argument devolved to, ahmed. You and asoka, both worthless mindless eaters, and you both will be culled by the very system you support.

  433. progressorconserve August 22, 2010 at 11:26 pm #

    Asoka, you express the following sentiment:
    “But talking about religious freedom — really engaging people — can open people’s minds, and blunt the prejudice.”
    Wonderful words, but that’s not the way you express yourself on CFN, in large part.
    For example, any *thinking* Jew or Muslim should be able acknowledge to harsh and punitive nature of their basic religious texts; Old Testament and Koran.
    You, Asoka, even tell the story of Mansour, imprisoned for 11 years, tortured, crucified, then finally killed by Muslims, “following the Book.”
    Yet, you have so far refused to acknowledge that Islam can inspire violence.
    If you can do that, we might be closer to:
    “talking about religious freedom — really engaging people” and “open people’s minds,” — which *MIGHT* “blunt the prejudice.”
    We can Hope, anyway!

  434. Qshtik August 22, 2010 at 11:59 pm #

    Asoka, what do you think is the solution to “the increasingly grave crisis facing black men” as spelled out by Bob Herbert in this NYT op-ed piece on Saturday?

  435. treebeardsuncle August 23, 2010 at 12:51 am #

    Hi folks. Been awhile because it has taken me a long time to read these posts.
    This is way off topic but I want to get away with it. I think it is a good example of petty despots and oligarchs at work:
    August 14, 2010
    Fascist Roseville Galleria Mall Policy Violates Constitutional Rights to Free Speech.
    They already earned some bad press. There is also an implied indication of responsibility (though liability is not clear) if enforcement of the communications policy interferes with the acquisition and delivery of medical services. Westfield LLC is treading on some thin ice here. I am working on starting a boycott of the mall now.
    There are indications that the communications policy also violates the freedom of speech and freedom of association provisions of the First Amendment in the Bill of Rights to the US Constitution in addition to similar provisions in the California Constitution.
    Geoffrey Harris
    The following article appeared in the Sacramento Bee this morning.
    The Constitution
    Free speech is OK — even at mall
    Court Assails Galleria Rules in Roseville
    By Denny Walsh
    Owners of the Westfield Galleria at Roseville didn’t want strangers talking to each other if they weren’t talking about the mall.
    They even had rules to enforce that behavior, but a state appellate court has starkly declared that the mall’s attempt to regulate conversation is unconstitutional.
    A three-judge panel of the 3rd District Court of Appeal said Wednesday in a 43-page opinion that the company’s rules of conduct are unconstitutional on their face” under the California Contitution’s free speech guarantee.
    The specific rule at issue prohibits a person in the center’s common areas from “approaching patron with whom he or she was no previously acquainted for the purpose of communicating with them on a topic unrelated to the business interests” of the mall or its tenants.
    The case arose out of the mall’s “citizen’s arrest” of a 27-year-old pastor, who had gone to the shopping center to talk to others about his faith.
    The appelate court’s opinion dealt one way or another with possible conversations that the rules would prohibit:
    Weather is a no-no, unless one is intuitive enough to observe how it may be affecting the size of the crowd at the mall. Teenagers who use the common areas for social gatherings, not
    necessarily limited to contemporaries they already know, are out of luck. Should someone stop you and ask directions to Sutter-Roseville Medical Center, you would be well advised to blow them off, lest your humanitarian instincts lead you astray.
    Another rule requires written applications for permission to make such contracts “to be submitted to the mall’s security office four days in advance. Mall management will
    Galleria: Case could go to state high court
    review the application to determine if the proposed activity is permissible.”
    Writing on behalf of the unanimous appellate panel, Associate Justice Tani Cantil-Sakauye concluded “the rules allow conversation between strangers on matters related to the Galleria … while prohibiting peaceful, consensual conversations between strangers in common areas of the mall on topics unrelated to the… mall.”
    The rules also provide that an application may only be for proposed conversation between two persons, thus prohibiting altogether talk among more than two unacquainted persons on subjects other than the Galleria, she noted.
    Westfield spokeswoman Katy Dickey said in a prepared statement: “We are disappointed that the rules in question did not satisfy the required legal standard for reasonable time, place
    and manner restrictions. We are reviewing the court’s decision and will consider our options … including appeal to the California Supreme Court.”
    Mathew McReynolds, an attorney for Mathew Snatchko, the youth pastor who challenged the rules, hailed the decision as “a huge victory for free speech and common sense. The opinion is a great credit to Justice Cantil-Sakauye — very thorough, well thought-out.”
    Acting Presiding Justice Ronald B. Robie and Associate Justice M. Kathleen Butz joined in the opinion.
    The panel reversed Placer Superior Court Judge Larry D. Gaddis’ ruling in favor of Westfield LLC and sent the case back to him for further proceedings.
    Hoping for opportunities to share his Christian faith, Snatchko, a Roseville resident, often went to the Galleria, the largest shopping mall in Northern California. While in a common area one evening, he approached three young women who aggreed to talk with him on subjects that included principles of his faith.
    A store employee called security and an officer responsed and told Snatchko to stop talking to the women or leave the mall. When he refused, the officer called for backup and a senior security officer responded and ordered Snatchko out. He again refused, and found himself under “citizen’s arrest,” handcuffed and turned over to Roseville police.
    He was booked and released, and when he appeared in court for arraignment all charges were dropped. The Placer County District Attorney’s Office agreed that Snatchko was “factually innocent,” and a Superior Court judge took the unusual step of a formal finding of factual innocence.
    Snatchko sued Wesfield, Professional Security Consultants, the security firm employed at the Galleria, and Richard Flores, the officer who made the arrest. He seeks money damages in an unspecified amount for false imprisonment, assault, battery, intentional infliction of emotional distress, negligence, malicious prosecution, and a general violation of his rights under California’s Unruh Civil Rights Act.
    Westfield defended the rules several ways arguing that they:
    * “Protect our tenants and the thousands of customers at the mall each day by ensuring a safe and secure shopping, dining, and entertainment environment while recognizing the requirements of California law.”
    * Promote safety “through the avoidance of fire code violations and the disruption and congestion that could result from unregulated expressive activities.”
    * Promote the “convenience of mall patrons.”
    But the justices didn’t buy any of those rationales.
    The opinion quotes from the deposition of Gavin Farnam, the senior general manager of the Galleria.
    “If you’re going to talk about any other subject (other than the mall) … then you’re prohibited from going up to strangers and speaking to them, is that correct? he was asked by a Snatchko attorney.
    “That’s not correct,” Farnam testified. “It doesn’t prohibit you. It just means you have to come in and fill out the application for third-party access for noncommerical” speech.
    What if, the attorney postulated, he is excited about the Super Bowl and says to a stranger. “Hey, hope you’re supporting the Patriots,” or “Hope you’re supporting the Giants this week.” Would that violate the rules? he asked.
    “You can go in and again fill out a third-party access, if that’s what a person chooses to do,” said Farnam.
    Call the Bee’s Denny Walsh,
    (916) 321-1189

  436. treebeardsuncle August 23, 2010 at 12:55 am #

    Here is a good quote from a book I just read called Global Ecology that describes how Exxon and other oil companies behaved after the Exxon Valdez’s spill back in 1989. Note that I am using my real name as nothing is going to happen due to my doing so. You folks are so gutless and mean-spirited and isolated just like the folks at UC Santa Cruz who used icb back in 1994.
    Ecology Geoffrey Harris
    Damage to the Environment August 11, 2010
    Quote from Global Ecology in Human Perspective, by Charles H. Southwick, pages 340- 341
    Perhaps the most common goal of all in restoration ecology is to return a damaged
    habitat to something approaching its former condition. This is often called remediation
    or reclamation. In the Alaskan oil spill of 1989 when the tanker Exxon Valdez hit a
    submerged rock and spilled 11 million gallons of crude oil, the main goal was to clean up
    the mess so it would not permanently pollute Glacier Bay, which had rich populations of
    seabirds, otters, whales, and other wildlife. The oil slick quickly spread and killed an
    estimated 580,000 birds, over 5,000 otters, 30 seals, 22 whales, and unknown number of
    fish (Miller, 1992). Intial cleanup costs ran $2 billion, and additional cleanup and legal
    fees may have doubled this to $4 billion. Remediation efforts involved measures to
    remove as much oil as possible from water and beaches and to treat as many sick and
    handicapped animals as possible. Oil removal required heroic physical efforts as well as
    bioremediation in which special strains of bacteria capable of breaking down crude oil
    into less harmful byproducts were sprayed on beaches. Bioremediation offers some hope
    as a means of coping with other toxic chemical spills, but we have a long way to go to
    make these methods completely effective. It is almost always less expensive and much
    less damaging to prevent environmental damage in the first place than to restore habitats
    once serious damage has occurred. The Exxon Valdez oil spill could have been avoided
    entirely by a more alert crew keeping the vessel on course or by building the ship with a
    double hull. The latter would have cost the Exxon Corporation $22.5 million, but it
    would have saved Exxon over $2 billion in cleanup costs. The Secretary of the Interior
    at the time, Rogers Morton, told the American people that oil tankers using Alaskan
    waters would be required to have double hulls, but this requirement was dropped under
    pressure from the oil companies (Miller, 1992).
    Note that Exxon had to spend 100 times as much on clean-up as they would have had
    to spend on a double-hulled vessel. Also note that even after the spill, the oil companies
    still refused to take effective preventative measures. Furthermore, the reponse to BP’s
    spill in the gulf was a cover-up not a restorative effort. The corexit used to sink the oil
    so it would not be visible from the surface was and is very toxic, so much so that it was
    banned by the British government from being used in Britain.

  437. treebeardsuncle August 23, 2010 at 12:57 am #

    Here is a topic dear to some folks hearts, which is the idea of how 2 close related species (or subspecies) cannot coexist in the same environment unless they specialize in different niches.
    Quote from Global Ecology in Human Perspective, Charles H. Southwick, Pages 298 – 299
    For closely related species, interspecific competition is often subtle but ultimately
    Unsustainable. Gause (1934) was one of the first ecologists to demonstrate that closely
    related species with nearly identical resource requirements cannot coexist. If strong
    competition exists between such species, one tends to displace or eliminate the other.
    This principle of competitive exclusion was demonstrated by Gause’s study of Paramium
    (Fig. 23.1).
    Closely related species do coexist in ecological communities, but the secret of their
    success is niche differentiation. MacArthur and MacArthur (1961) demonstrated that
    closely related species of warbles all feed on insects, and may even feed in the same tree,
    but they do so by specializing on certain parts of the tree and certain species of insects.
    Thus the Cape May warbler feeds on insects at the very top of a conifer tree, the bay-
    breasted warbler feeds in the middle, and the Blackburnian warbler feeds at the base of
    the same tree.
    Figure 23.1 Competition between two closely related species of protozoa in the genus Paramecium. When separate, both species grow well and exhibit logistic growth in controlled cultures with constant food supply; when together, P. caudatum is eliminated (from Odium, 1971).

  438. treebeardsuncle August 23, 2010 at 12:59 am #

    Now, here is a quote comparing human population growth and its spread to cancer. The biggest contribution of the late 20th and 21st centuries will be the destruction of most remaining life on earth, especially in terms of most of the species.
    This goes along with folks caring just about themselves and their families, but having strong technical skills.
    Quote from Global Ecology in Human Perspective, by Charles H. Southwick, pages 161 – 162
    Other scientists consider human population growth an “ecopathological process” that is out of control and injuring the earth. In this sense, such population growth in some parts of the world, is carcinogenic, a “cancer-like growth” with the potential of destroying the global ecosystem (Eisley, 1961; Gregg, 1955; Hern, 1990, 1993). Dr. Warren Hern, a physician, anthropologist, and public health epidemiologist, has pointed out the striking similarities between human population growth in the word and the growth of malignant cancer in an individual. Both are characterized by (1) rapid, uncontrolled growth, (2) invasion and destruction of adjacent tissues or environments, (3) metastasis, or spread by colonization, and (4) dedifferentiation, or loss of distinctiveness, in individual components. Furthermore, the malignant process in an individual or an ecosystem often involves the production of toxic metabolites. In the human body, any two of these symptoms are suggestive of cancer; in the human population, all five are now occurring in the global ecosystem.
    The idea that population growth is a malignant process is very unpopular, of course, because no individual wants to be compared to a cancer cell, and many objections to this view can be raised. There are obvious differences between cancer in an individual and population growth in the world. Whereas cancer, if untreated, usually kills the patient (unless there is a spontaneous remission), world population growth will not necessarily “kill” the earth. The earth will survive a human onslaught, but be so drastically changed that modern civilization as we know it would collapse. Human history contains examples of societies that have self-destructed, and the potential for self-destruction on a larger, even global, scale cannot be dismissed out of hand. The world of the twentieth century has certainly had frequent warnings of both human and environmental tragedies if we continue to conduct “business as usual” on a course of continuing growth.
    These facts and theories on human population growth focus our attention on a number of related questions. Why is this growth occurring? How is it occurring, and where is it occurring?
    This last paragraph is from me, Geoff Harris:
    Notice that this quote is consistent with the observation that humans have been sterilizing and homogenizing the surface of the earth, especially since WWII as the model of corporate-led automobile-dependent suburban American has gained ascendence.

  439. asoka August 23, 2010 at 1:16 am #

    SJMom51 said:

    The Iranians announced their new un-manned, long-range bomber today. They call it the “Ambassador of Death.”
    Lovely…that just makes my day.

    The U.S, has been meddling in Iran‘s affairs for a very long time, including, among other crimes, using its secret services to engineer a coup in August 1953.
    The U.S. is the only country that has ever used nuclear weapons against civilians.
    The U.S. has also used other WMDs (some deemed illegal) against innocent civilians, such as White Phosphorous, Daisy Cutters, Depleted Uranium, Thermobaric bombs, Clusterbombs, and Napalm.
    Faced with a known aggressor like the U.S. that flaunts international laws, wouldn’t you want to develop a deterrent?

  440. treebeardsuncle August 23, 2010 at 1:21 am #

    WL, that guy who threatened you deserves a punch in the face so his nose bleeds profusely. I have taken direct action with a guy who threatened my life. Might want to hear about it sometime. The wuss tattled after I scratched him with a stick. Know this a bully is always a coward and a fink.

  441. Eleuthero August 23, 2010 at 1:25 am #

    Thanks to SJ Mom and ProgressOrConserve
    for their responses to my query about
    North Carolina.
    To SJ Mom … I was raised in Philly and
    I actually learned to LIKE humidity after
    going to graduate school at Arizona State
    University. Extreme dryness is bad for my
    sinuses and my skin. And, as PorC, notes,
    the Asheville area is at 3000 feet so the
    air is both cooler and drier than the
    PorC’s comments about Charlotte are interesting
    as I know zero about the area. It’s going to
    be a toss-up between NC and my home state of PA
    after next June. In either case, I’ll be glad
    to leave the People’s Republic of California
    because the rents are absurd and even tony
    towns like Palo Alto have a peculiar lack
    of CULTURE outside of high tech … which I
    consider a kind of ANTI-culture.
    California’s climate is the greatest but the
    interpersonal climate isn’t very neighborly
    and the percentage of moneygrubbers, which
    grew hyperbolically during the 1990s, is as
    bad as ever. The landlord mentality has
    KILLED California.

  442. asoka August 23, 2010 at 1:41 am #

    Since the justice system is racially discriminatory I think Blacks in prison for nonviolent crimes should be released.
    It would also help Black youth to have a Black president elected, someone like Keith Ellison, instead of a half-white Oreo in the White House.
    BTW, we now know from experience in several states that privatized prisons in white hands have been a disaster. Privatized prisons are more inefficient and cost more to run than government-run prisons.

  443. treebeardsuncle August 23, 2010 at 1:51 am #

    Well, there have been money-grubbers here from early on. What do you think the 49’s were? Saw a lot of those cold mean status-seeking hyper-competitive jerks back in the 70’s and 80’s too. Am thinking about leaving Ca too, and buying property in Wi or possibly Mn, Iowa, Illinois, or Michigan.

  444. treebeardsuncle August 23, 2010 at 2:06 am #

    I read the article. Here is why the black men and boys are having trouble.
    They are criminal morons. They are stupid, stupid people, with an average iq of around 85 in this country. In sub-saharan Africa they are even more stupid, with an iq of around 64 or so. Will check on this. Such low intelligence is associated with a lack of the ability to engage in moral reasoning. Blacks have a very high incidence of sociopathy moreover, which is a leading cause of criminal behavior.
    Blacks are irrelevant to the economy other than as entertainers, buffoons, and drug dealers. They are not needed. The mexicans are a more docile source of cheap physical labor, but are also prone to criminality and rather stupid but not quite as stupid as blacks. They have an average iq of around 87 or so. Will check on that too.
    Am quite pleased to see these degenerate buffoons, morons, and thugs off each other. A good way to deal with them is to stick them together in cages and let them fight it out. Those cages are called ghettos and prisons. The biggest mistake was bringing these sub-humans into the country to begin with.

  445. messianicdruid August 23, 2010 at 7:43 am #

    So this is the nonsense your argument devolved…”
    What has devolved is your attention [INTEREST}. You completely ignore {or deny} the largest part of reality and start name-calling and projecting when something comes along you don’t grok.
    Whether men or children, all have progenitors. Contracts {agreements/covenants} can be made among any sentient beings.
    A Will is not really a contract. It delineates conditions for the disposal of property. Children must meet the conditions to inherit the benefits. Being an orphan, or believing you have no progenitor means nothing, in the long run.
    “I will put My Laws into their minds, and I will write them upon their hearts” (Heb. 8:10, quoted from Jer. 31:33). What Moses the schoolmaster could not do, Jesus Christ accomplishes by means of the Holy Spirit. It is the same Law, though appropriate changes were made in its outward forms to suit the new conditions. In particular, there are new Executors of the Will. Cohen and Sons lost the contract, and their lawyers were fired for greed and incompetence. The new Executors are now Melchizedek and Sons.”

  446. Pottsville Diana August 23, 2010 at 8:07 am #

    Asoka, the Torah makes a distinction between a homeowner who kills an intruder who breaks in and menaces a family at night and one who does so during the daytime. A householder suffered no legal sanctions afterward, if during the post death inquiry it was determined that the break in occured during the night. However, if ‘the sun has shone forth on him,’ then there were penalties for the householder acting in self defense who killed the intruder. The day time break in placed the householder in less danger and more likely to receive neighborhood assistance.
    It seems a nice balance on the principle to the right of self defense; the degree of danger and the likelihood of assistance were both considered, with the aim of preserving life; the householders and the intruders were both valuab le.. Another factor exempting the homeowner from sanctions for a killing in self defense during the night; one might be a lot more frightened, confused and caught off guard at night and less able to rationally figure out a way for both self and attacker to survive.
    However, the above was just for informational purposes. One does not suppose that Jim wrote this book to advocate the Torah.
    Bullock’s response makes sense as the actions of practical, successful magnate. And just as the Bible contains narratives that it does not advocate but are provided to serve useful examples, one ought not to suppose that Jim’s personal ethos is reflected in every character’s actions.
    I’d like to add that the account of the Bullock actions and estate is entirely consistent with what we know of Post-Pax Romana villa life. For at least three centuries after the fall of the empire, villas functioned much as the Bullock estate as described in the Witch of Hebron, with all the amenities of classical life and with some earnest and more or less successful attempts to preserve Roman law and ethics. Based on past models, the account was realistic.
    (However, as every stock broker is required to remind us, past performance is no indication of future results.)

  447. Pottsville Diana August 23, 2010 at 8:24 am #

    Messianic Druid, are you Walter?

  448. Al Klein August 23, 2010 at 9:33 am #

    Qshtik… I get what you mean. Hmmm. Hadn’t thought of that. Thanks for the reality check. Al

  449. envirofrigginmental August 23, 2010 at 10:38 am #

    asoka.. you said:

    We can actually make gasoline (as well as diesel and jet fuel) from sustainable sources, including fast-growing grasses, wood waste and even algae (I know, it sounds gross). The research is far along, and it’s actively being pursued not only in university labs, but in well-funded corporate projects.

    When researched further, one understands that the energy required to produce most of these “green” fuels exceeds the energy embodied in the fuel being preoduced. Further, fossil fuels is one of the key ingredients required for making these fuels.
    It is wrong-headed for environmentalists to encourage these developments, as the real need is to advocate SEVERE reduction in personal transportation. The last thing the automobile industry needs is our support and encouragement to produce more personal vehicles.
    It’s a red herring.

  450. treebeardsuncle August 23, 2010 at 11:03 am #

    Most environmentalists are environmentalists in name only. They are entitled high-consuming superficial jerks who want pretty views and places to recreate. To really have a sustainable world (on the order of millions of years), cars and detached single family houses must be abolished and people should not have more than 3 children and the average has to be no more than 2.1 or 2.2 with current levels of death rates.

  451. envirofrigginmental August 23, 2010 at 11:03 am #

    Whereas cancer, if untreated, usually kills the patient (unless there is a spontaneous remission), world population growth will not necessarily “kill” the earth.

    I disagree with the author’s assertion.
    We are fundamentally changing the nature of the atmosphere, ocean chemistry and soil composition with our various forms of pollution.
    Whatever “life” is “fortunate” enough to survive our onslaught will likely only be that which was found in the primordial soup of millions of years ago: microbes at the bottom of the ocean.
    If one is arguing technicalities, then perhaps we won’t entirely kill off our host, but for all intents and purposes, that is exactly what we are doing.

  452. Qshtik August 23, 2010 at 11:21 am #

    Since the justice system is racially discriminatory I think Blacks in prison for nonviolent crimes should be released.
    Obviously, if non-violent blacks were released they’d have to release all non-violent prisoners. So Bernie Madoff goes free. That OK with everyone?
    BTW, I would free all non-violent prisoners who are in on drug related charges and legalize drugs. There are no evil substances, only stupid people who abuse them. Society cannot make stupidity illegal and enforce it.
    But the operation of our prisons is a symptom, not the problem itself. What do you suggest all those non-violent blacks do when they’re released and hit the streets? Sign up for Med School?
    Let’s face it, blacks show little inclination toward assimilation into the larger culture and the exasperating thing is it appears to be by conscious choice. I hark back to my own pet peeve: that blacks are still speaking their own language, even 15th generation African Americans. My 1st generation Korean American dentist has zero “accent” vis a vis the general population of central NJ.
    I’ll be honest Asoka, the problem of the black American male as described by Bob Herbert will require nothing less than a miracle to solve IMHO.

  453. treebeardsuncle August 23, 2010 at 11:51 am #

    Part of the reason blacks speak differently is because their brains and minds are different. Another reason is that their language is a creole with distinctive African-derived verb forms in particular, such as the lack of the use of a linking verb in a progressive phrase. A black male will not say “My friends and I were waiting there by the store.” Rather he would say something like “We hangin.” or “We chillin.” or “We’s there.” They also have special forms to distinguish completed actions from possible current continous actions suchs as “Jerome, he don go to de store.” or “Leroy, he de go to the store.” They also distinguish among actions that occured at various times in the past. For example, one might say. “Jerome, he gone.”
    That could mean Jerome went out this afternoon and has been away till after supper time. “Jerome, he been gone.” That could mean Jerome skipped town last month, and he hasn’t been back for awhile. However, if one said “Oh Jerome, he been long gone.” or just “Jerome, he long gone.” that would mean Jerome left town several years ago and one had not heard hide nor hair of him since. Hope this helps.
    Black males also move around in a way that is bizare and threatening and meant to be intimidating. It is meant to terrify squares. It also encourages police, security guards, and rednecks to rough them up and incarcerate them for the benefit of the rest of the law-abiding citizens. A further thing one will notice is that black males rarely use sentences with more than about 5 words just as low class white males don’t use sentences with more than about 10 words. That is due to their lacking the verbal reasoning ability and the short-term memory to be able to process, create, and understand utterances of greater syntical complexity or length. A negro male almost never uses subordinate clauses. His communcations are close to the level of an animal consisting of menacing hostile glares, bizare and threatening arm and leg movements that accompany his slouching gate or venomous swagger, incomprehensible grunts, and short choppy sentences almost always concrete in content and in the indicative mood with little in the way of qualifying phrases. A negro male often speaks in the following way “Yo, what yo want muzzah -fukkah. Yo betta shut de fuk up before I bust a cap in yo ass, muzzah-fuckah. (I know that is long but they can muster that to express hostility, especially threats.) We’s goin down to cut some records. Yeah.” Consider this a brief lesson in the dialect of the American Negro, his creole and ebonics. Peace. Out, fool.”

  454. envirofrigginmental August 23, 2010 at 11:52 am #

    It is interesting, this growing movement of environmentalist bashing.
    It is true that the best environmentalist is the one who treads most lightly on the planet, whether thru conscious will or circumstance.
    It is my job to decipher the greenwash provided by corporations/industry, understand the myriad technologies at our disposal and wholistically assimilate the best technologies and strategies into the design and construction of a building, given that construction is one of the most environmentally destructive and energy intensive activities we do as humans.
    Given this, I would consider myself an environmentalist… albeit a well-educated, financially successful, high-consuming one… which I will address after I state that: to denigrate all environmentalists based on what seems to be some negative encounters you have had in the past doesn’t contribute anything useful when addressing the issue of one’s affinities or allegiances.
    You are partly correct as there are plenty of “entitled high-consuming superficial jerks who want pretty views and places to recreate”. The sad thing is that generally they are well-intentioned, as they are aware that something is not right, but lack true understanding of the issues and commitment to real change. They are still trapped in the “machine”, as I call it.
    I was one of those people. Like them, I was born into this mess. It wasn’t my fault that I was indoctrinated into a system that told me I had to have and want “more”, otherwise I wasn’t valid. Only by having “more” was I going to be considered successful. Now, after 25 years of working that model, I’ve reached a dead-end. I have been awakened. Those you refer to still haven’t.
    So now I’m in the process of down-sizing and de-energizing my lifestyle. (I read ‘Voluntary Simplicity’ some time ago.) It is not an easy process, undoing everything you’ve believed in since childhood. But I’m doing it.
    So bashing them isn’t useful. They just haven’t put all the pieces of the puzzle together yet. Hopefully time will change that.
    The salient question is: Do we have enough time for them to wake up to make the necessary changes to avert all-out disaster?

  455. Qshtik August 23, 2010 at 12:06 pm #

    Part of the reason blacks speak differently
    I await Asoka’s retort to your analysis with great anticipation.

  456. envirofrigginmental August 23, 2010 at 12:11 pm #

    Now here’s an example of a brilliant, albeit mis-directed amount of energy being poured into a technology, IMHO.
    It proves that the concept of personal transportation (i.e. the automobile) is so deeply ingrained in US culture, that people will go the ends of the earth to ensure it’s proliferation and sustenance.
    I see acts like this (and electric vehicles etc.)as a parallel to Charleton Heston’s famous quote: “They’ll have to pry it from my cold, dead hands.” Indeed.

  457. Qshtik August 23, 2010 at 12:14 pm #

    one had not heard hide nor hair of him since.

  458. treebeardsuncle August 23, 2010 at 2:25 pm #

    Hi, folks. Remember Kunstler’s talking about the former middle class. Read this article listed on latoc about how 20% of folks in Ventura are at risk of being homeless. Note, that they are not revolting. They are taking it lying down (in their cars). Note especially that 1% of the population owns 37% of the wealth and 80% owns 12% of the wealth. That means per person those in the top 1% own 240 times as much as those in the bottom 80%. So, yes, America is becoming a third world country with a few rich and many poor. The real middle class is those 19% who own 50% of the wealth. Those people vote and support the university system. If they, mostly professionals, small businessmen, and the managerial class are impoverished, then things will get more interesting. Note in particularly the mercantile class, the next 4% down from the top 1%, were the ones who fomented the American revolution.

  459. treebeardsuncle August 23, 2010 at 2:38 pm #

    Here is a quote you all will like as it states in print the following key ideas often mentioned on this site. Americans form their view of reality from watching television and seeing movies. Second, they go to great efforts, including going deep into debt, to order their lives, particularly their houses and yards, in accordance with what they see on television.
    T?he sudden plunge into homelessness is a reality that’s difficult to understand, given the images of America we are accustomed to seeing in television series and films. They always depict homes with well-kept yards and two-car garages with basketball hoops attached to them. This America still exists, but it’s shrinking. And often those who are managing to keep the illusion alive can hardly afford to do so.”

  460. networker August 23, 2010 at 6:20 pm #

    Jesus, what’s up with the racist diatribes allofasudden? The lowest common denominator just took a nosedive.

  461. Kiwi Nick August 25, 2010 at 2:33 am #

    Admittedly, I got this story second-hand. But I’d believe it.
    Bear in mind that dogs normally befriend humans, but various shifty characters train them to fight – I’d say wolves could be trained the same way.
    Not fighting a HMO, I’d rather pay Australia’s Medicare Surcharge than give a dime to those wallys, but I do pity the Americans who are entirely reliant on HMOs, at least until Obama’s health reform comes through.
    Background: Medicare (description of system, and funding arrangements). It provides universal healthcare, using up less GDP than the privately driven US Health system.

  462. Kiwi Nick August 25, 2010 at 2:41 am #

    It is interesting, this growing movement of environmentalist bashing.
    … in other news, the Green vote has increased to about 11% of total in Australia. They now have one house seat and 9 senate seats. Details.
    Environmentalist bashing used to be fashionable here, but not any more.

  463. CreativeDestruction.us August 30, 2010 at 9:11 am #

    Look forward to getting a copy of the new book.