Vaulted Invest in Gold

Visit this blog’s sponsor. Vaulted is an online mobile web app for investing in allocated and deliverable physical gold:


Additional support from

Sage Restoration


Support JHK on Patreon


If you’re interested in supporting this blog, check out the Patreon page.

Attention Movie Producers!
JHK’s screenplay in hard-copy edition

Click to order!

A Too-Big-To-Fail Bankster…
Three Teenagers who bring him down…
Gothic doings on a Connecticut Estate.
High velocity drama!

Now Live on Amazon

“Simply the best novel of the 1960s”

Now in Paperback !
Only Seven Bucks!
JHK’s Three-Act Play
A log mansion in the Adirondack Mountains…
A big family on the run…
A nation in peril…

Long Emergency Cafe Press ad 2

Get your Official JHK swag on Cafe Press

The fourth and final book of the World Made By Hand series.


Battenkill Books (autographed by the Author) |  Northshire Books Amazon


emb of Riches Thumbnail

JHK’s lost classic now reprinted as an e-book
Kindle edition only


My Tea Party

     Now that congress has passed a fake financial reform bill that will accomplish absolutely nothing to correct a recently engrained culture of swindling, I want to start my own tea party. I don’t want to associate it with the other tea parties that have already formed because I am allergic to much of the idiot ideology they express – especially the bent for merging Christian fundamentalism with governance.
     One of the few things I agree on with the existing tea parties is that the Republicans and Democrats have made themselves hopeless hostages of political money and bargained away their legitimacy. In line with my general belief that American life must downscale or die, I’m not wholly persuaded that federalism can survive in any case – but assuming it will lumber on for a while anyway, the two major parties cannot retain their monopoly on power. Indeed, it is in the natural order of things that this country must periodically endure a realignment of political ideas and political power. This tends to occur during moments of cultural convulsion, and that is exactly the moment we are in as the sun sets on the fossil fuel based industrial extravaganza and we enter a crisis of intense resource austerity.
     The other tea parties have been silent on the war because of the ties between Christian fundamentalism and military chauvinism. This is due, I suspect, to the tea parties first emanating out of Dixieland, where an old Scots-Irish “cracker” belligerence persists in a romantic view of violence – and where, coincidentally, there happen to be so many US military bases, and families dependent on careers connected with them. The confusions of hellfire Christian theology with governance form an overlayment on this, so you end up with a political culture favoring military adventures abroad and pushing citizens around at home on matters of social behavior (while mouthing a lot of disingenuous nonsense about “liberty”).
     I don’t like that political culture and I’m not in favor of continuing our adventures on the fringes of the Middle East. The half-assed occupation of Afghanistan cannot be resolved in a way consistent with our fantasies and wishes. To put it as simply as possible, we can’t control the terrain there and we can’t control the behavior of the population. Our campaign to turn that remote and impoverished land into a governable democratic state is an exercise in futility that we can’t afford. No doubt there are strategic wishes pinned to it – mainly a wish to influence and moderate neighboring Pakistan – but that appears to be back-firing with the minting of evermore Islamic maniacs seeking to blow up anything that presents a target, including their own women and children.
     Iraq is a somewhat different story, but I suspect the bottom line is that we can’t afford to run a police station there forever. In the worst-case of our leaving, Iran might attempt to step in and control the place (and its oil), but that would only produce a bloody collision of Arab and Persian culture – and the side effect of that might actually be to our benefit. Anyway, my tea party would shut down that operation ahead of schedule.
     My tea party would reduce legal immigration to a tiny trickle and get serious about enforcing sanctions against people who are here without permission. A New York Times editorial last week expressed the Democratic-progressive view in typically tortured style, saying of the recent Arizona law: makes a crime out of being a foreigner in the state without papers — in most cases a civil violation of federal law. This is an invitation to racial profiling, an impediment to effective policing and a usurpation of federal authority….
    The fine distinction they want to apply in this matter between civil and criminal law is the same as NPR’s house style of referring to illegal immigrants as “undocumented” – leaving the impression that the only problem for these people is a some bureaucratic glitch rather than a transgression of law. The truth is that neither party really wants to do anything about the extraordinary influx of Mexican nationals because they want to pander to a growing segment of Hispanic voters (or secondarily want to maintain the pool of cheap labor for US businesses). My party does not believe in unbounded multi-culturalism. My party also views the lawlessness of the current situation to be corrosive of the rule-of-law generally. My party views the global population overshoot problem as a condition that requires a more rigorous defense of US territory, sovereign resources, and even whatever remains of American common culture.
     My tea party would systematically dismantle Too-Big-To-Fail banks into smaller units subject to real reforms that would prevent any further “socialization” of losses by financial buccaneers. In effect, my party would re-enact the Glass-Steagall laws – and get rid of the 3000-page bundle of prevaricating crap in the current “Fin-Reg” law, which has been constructed with all the guile and mendacity of a collateralized debt obligation. My party would seek the return of banking to its function as a utility, while letting investment freebooters gamble with their own funds without any government back-up. (You’ll see the investment houses get small fast that way.)
     My tea party would get the government out of the housing business. The main effect of 70 years of federal intervention for the sake of “affordable” housing has been to drive the price of housing up far beyond the ability of normal people to afford a place to live. And the current policies devised during the bubble crackup crisis have only served to prevent the price of houses from returning to a level where people might be willing to buy them. Of course, the whole process has also encouraged local governments to jack up property taxes to a level that can only be described as intolerable (in the 1776 sense of the word).
     My party would undertake a rebuilding of the US passenger railroad system – not a flashy new “high speed” system, which we cannot afford, but the system that is lying out there rusting in the rain waiting to be fixed. This is imperative because we are on the verge of very disruptive problems with our oil supply which are going to put our beloved Happy Motoring matrix out-of-business. We also face the end of mass commercial aviation (even if flying remains an option for the wealthy). A restored passenger rail system will not solve all the problems connected with the demise of mass motoring, but it will help a lot, and would be an aid to the necessary re-activation of our small towns and cities as suburbia inevitably loses its value and utility.
     The leaders of my tea party from the president on down would make a concerted effort to inform the public in straight talk about the real problems that we face involving peak oil and debt. My tea party would promote reality-based politics rather than techno-grandiose fantasies and wishful thinking. My tea party would encourage the necessary downscaling of all the critical activities of American daily life, including the re-localization of food production, the rebuilding of local commercial networks, the revitalization of the small towns and cities, and the difficult transition out of extreme car dependency. My tea party will do everything possible to construct a coherent consensus about what is happening to us and what we can do about it. My tea party is based on the true spirit of 1776 – the binding together of common interests and common culture – not the destruction of them as in the spirit of 1861.


A sequel to my 2008 novel of post-oil America, World Made By Hand, will be published in September 2010 by The Atlantic Monthly Press.

Witch cover blog.jpg



About James Howard Kunstler

View all posts by James Howard Kunstler
James Howard Kunstler is the author of many books including (non-fiction) The Geography of Nowhere, The City in Mind: Notes on the Urban Condition, Home from Nowhere, The Long Emergency and the four-book series of World Made By Hand novels, set in a post economic crash American future. His most recent book is Living in the Long Emergency; Global Crisis, the Failure of the Futurists, and the Early Adapters Who Are Showing Us the Way Forward. Jim lives on a homestead in Washington County, New. York, where he tends his garden and communes with his chickens.

542 Responses to “My Tea Party” Subscribe

  1. manifestogr July 5, 2010 at 9:44 am #

    The social contract is broken and the system is going down..

  2. judetennessee July 5, 2010 at 10:01 am #

    Particulary great post Jim, however I am afraid that the population overshoot is way beyond sealing the borders. Everywhere I look there are pregnant women, folks pushing two-seater baby carriages and a general societal elevation of parenthood as a badge of honor and courage. Whatever, it is obviously cognative dissonance on the highest level. I say folks better read Bill Catton’s Overshoot and yes, I will join your “teas party.”

  3. progressorconserve July 5, 2010 at 10:03 am #

    Great article, Jim.
    I was at fireworks last night on the drill field at the local college.
    Stretched out on blankets with my sons, the grandson, the daughter in law, the girlfriend in law,…and some friends of theirs that I had not even met, yet.
    And I’m looking around by the glare of the explosions; looking all the way into the heart of Georgia.
    And I’m thinking whether by long slow slide or exciting collapse…..that there is no place on Earth that will be better for me to face the future of America.
    So I’m ready for the future you propose, JHK.
    And now I would like to devote my efforts on this blog to slowing down or stopping the future you propose.
    Because until it happens….there is hope!
    Thank you, Jim.
    Have a great week, CFN.
    God bless America!
    “Oil is cheap because we steal it from the future without regard to the cost.
    Conserve when you can and push for renewable energy.
    Your grandchildren will love you for it!”

  4. Lynn Shwadchuck July 5, 2010 at 10:04 am #

    What is the point in fantasizing about a better system? We’re not going to see an improved democratic system that makes things workable from the top down. And keeping out the Mexicans! Ha! How are Canadians going to keep out the Americans? How are the Montanans going to keep out the Nevadans? The arctic sea is is heading into an all-time low and glaciers are calving off Greenland at an increasing rate that puts the Hibernia oil well at risk of a worse catastrophe than what’s happening in the Gulf of Mexico. It’s all crumbling chaotically and I don’t think there’s much point in thinking macro any more. We need to think local and small.
    Diet for a small footprint and a small grocery bill

  5. lbendet July 5, 2010 at 10:05 am #

    Where do I sign?
    Couldn’t agree with you more. The Globalism this country has adopted has not only destroyed the American worker through off-shoring, but has allowed an unprecedented amount of people to come in through a porous border to work for slave wages. Yep our power elite are always looking for slaves.
    Good luck getting Americans back to work with these conditions.
    Yesterday Fareed Zakaria was describing the insanity of our spending in Afghanistan. Not only are we spending 1Billion for each Al Qaeda member per year, but Billions of our tax payer dollars are illegally leaving the country.
    Sound familiar? 9 Billion went missing in Iraq. The response from our leadership, was—Oh how can we be expected to keep account of everything? Oh that would be too much to expect, since god only knows who’s getting the money. In the fog and chaos of war, it’s easy to commit highway robbery.
    Before they go after the middle class “entitlements” they better get this boondoggle in order.
    This morning I ran across an article through Max Keiser that I thought really expressed what I’ve been thinking.
    It’s called Killing Americans for fun and profit.
    Enjoy the heat spell…

  6. progressorconserve July 5, 2010 at 10:12 am #

    Went back and reread your article. You are sounding newly optimistic about the future. Where do I sign up for your new tea party?
    I may need to start the Southern branch of your tea party for you. You do continue to bash the South just a tiny little to much for my taste.

  7. Max July 5, 2010 at 10:25 am #

    Thanks for your diligent and thoughtful dissemination of matters which seem to elude the “chattering class” who occupy the premier vantage points across the nation. They’re so busy talking, they stop listening a long time ago.
    By the way, I’d be happy to lead the charge here in Colorado…suggested campaign tag: Plenty O’ Cheez Doodles for every kitchen cabinet!

  8. MonkeyMuffins July 5, 2010 at 10:25 am #

    “My tea party is based on the true spirit of 1776”
    I do not doubt you, Mr. Kunstler, as you have consistently and proudly manifested typical, teabagger racism and sexism–in the “true spirit of 1776”–in your writing and speaking.

    The ordinary man with extraordinary power is the chief danger for mankind–not the fiend or the sadist.
    -Erich Fromm
    As long as everybody wants to have more, there must be formations of classes, there must be class war, and in global terms, there must be international war. Greed and peace preclude each other.
    -Erich Fromm
    For the first time in history the physical survival of the human race depends on a radical change of the human heart.
    -Erich Fromm

    Mr. Kunstler is an ordinary man who loves caste and hates change.

  9. Bicycle Tourist July 5, 2010 at 10:27 am #

    Sorry, Jim. Your Tea Party is based upon critical thinking, a realistic assessment of extant reality and practical problem solving.
    It would never catch on.

  10. progressorconserve July 5, 2010 at 10:28 am #

    The pessimistic part of my nature says you may very well be correct.
    The realistic part of my nature has lead me to prepare as best I can for the future for my family and grandkid.
    And now, on this internationally read blog, the optimistic part of my nature leads me to fight for the best in an uncertain future.
    Life is Good!

  11. Unconventional Ideas July 5, 2010 at 10:29 am #

    Perhaps the key is to join the “Tea Party” movement, only define it in the context of Peak Oil, insurmountable mountains of debt, and resource depletion.
    Who knows, maybe we could trick the masses to follow. For them it’s all about the labeling. Give them the label they want, and it won’t matter what’s inside the package.

  12. progressorconserve July 5, 2010 at 10:30 am #

    So do we just lie down and die because of a population overshoot that may or may not kill us in an uncertain future.
    After we do that, we’re going to have to try to deal with the mess we have created, as a Nation, in the most humane manner possible.

  13. progressorconserve July 5, 2010 at 10:33 am #

    That’s it, UNCONVENTIONAL, you’ve got it!!
    And I’ve got a slogan, “Oil is cheap because we steal it from the future without regard to cost!”
    Now let’s get to work.
    Ideas, CFN?

  14. Cuntagious July 5, 2010 at 10:34 am #

    Jim Kunstler for president.

  15. lsjogren July 5, 2010 at 10:37 am #

    Monkey Muffins: I doubt Kunstler is intimidated by your sleazy attempts at character assassination.

  16. hugho July 5, 2010 at 10:47 am #

    Unusual post for you Jim but a nice summary of your ideas and weltanschuung well familiar to regular readers and of course I agree with the bulk of your comments. A third or 4th party will likely pop up. How could they not? As a former fallen away republican and now fallen away democrat, I’m ready for change as was most of the country when they voted for a misnamed candidate of change which was never change because all three branches of the guvment regularly copulate with the corporations who feed and clothe them and changing copulation patterns is notoriously difficult. It will be painful to bid our Latino neighbors adios especially so because in my view they are as a country better people than their northern neighbor but maybe with them gone and unemployment checks gone, our fat ass rednecks will have to get off their couch and do the work we have passed off to our hard working southern neighbors hanging sheetrock, picking crops and mowing lawns. The big picture story which you see quite clearly is that we have a world lurching toward collapse and not just one mismanaged and malgoverned superpower.

  17. bossier22 July 5, 2010 at 10:51 am #

    I’ve never agreed more with one of your post. You would be surprised to know I am a conservative southerner. Not all conservatives or southerners are as clueless as the broad brush you paint with. Overpopulation, globalism, and cultural degeneration are destroying the country without help from climate change and peek oil.

  18. moeaxelrod July 5, 2010 at 10:52 am #

    Mexico has supplied three things to us: cheap labor,drugs and oil. We have, until recently, enjoyed the use of all three. How can a country export,until recently, over 3 million barrels of oil a day and not be able to create an economy capable of employing its population? My gut tells me major corruption and wealthy elites have prevented it from developing. Wasn’t the country ruled by a single party for something like 70 years? Our standard of living has been subsidized by cheap Mexican labor as well as diminished by NAFTA. Ask yourself how desperate would you have to be to leave your home,friends, culture etc. to risk entering a foreign country illegally to survive? Under other circumstances we would celebrate these people for their “Americaness” risk taking,freedom loving,entreprenurial spirit, hard work etc. That possibility is now gone with the oil and as our economy declines perhaps the immigration problem will fade away as well, as the opportunities here decline…. Moe.

  19. Dark Fired Tobacco July 5, 2010 at 10:55 am #

    Jim, your persistence in supporting conventional passenger rail is well founded. The engineering issues confronting grade-separated high speed rail, especially east of the Mississippi, are far more complex than most people can imagine. The issues are not primarily technical: much of this is 100-year old technology. Rather, the difficulty will be in weaving a new high speed rail corridor through the maze of freeways, utilities, environmental regulations, property acquisitions, etc., at the rate of $34 million a mile.
    The few new rail corridors built in this country since the 1970s have generally been in the open country of the Mountain West. Even double tracking existing corridors means new bridges, tunnels, cuts, and fills in a narrow right of way while maintaining existing rail traffic. (The amount of American rail corridors that were ever double-tracked are less than people suppose.)
    We can get to 90 mph and even up to 110 mph in some corridors (the Federal Railroad Administration limit before grade-separation is mandatory.) I just don’t think we can construct 200 mph corridors before everything unravels. The 79 mph track speed limit is something Congress enacted in 1946 to help the auto industry; it was never supported by accident data. Railroads ran up to 100 mph even before World War I and the age of oil.
    Last week I was in Chicago on business and stopped by Union Station. The condition of one of Amtrak’s major rail stations was shocking. This was no Washington Union Station; it was closer to going into a Boston subway station.
    The condition of rapid transit in one of America’s greatest cities was also revealing. I took the Orange and Red lines from Midway to my hotel and struggled to get a single carry-on bag through the maze of 1950’s turnstiles, dank stairways, and narrow corridors. Had I been transferring to Amtrak I would have had to walk several blocks on city streets; there is no direct link of rapid transit to Union Station. Chicago does not have the capacity in its public transit system to absorb a major transfer of riders from autos any more than many large American cities.
    We need a visionary transfer to rail in both our intercity and intracity travel for our major urban areas where a majority of our citizens live. A visionary president would have directed the taxpayer subsidy for GM toward retooling factories to construct modern rail coaches and sleepers, not building more private vehicles with internal combustion engines. A visionary president would be using the Gulf crisis to engage the nation both on environmental issues and on the need to transition from a rapidly diminishing energy resource. Unfortunately, we have a business-as-usual president, once again.
    I will echo Jim’s sentiments on the two wars and add that we need to start an orderly decommissioning of our overseas military bases, bringing our troops home and placing them on the Mexican border.
    The hour is late. As as the writer of Proverbs 29 said “where there is no vision the people perish.” (KJV). A modern translation (New American Standard) brings the point closer to our present dilemma: “where there is no vision the people are unrestrained.” Sound familiar?

  20. progressorconserve July 5, 2010 at 10:55 am #

    you said:
    It will be painful to bid our Latino neighbors adios
    I think that’s extreme. My personal opinion is that America as a nation lacks the meanness required to do mass deportations of illegals. And I, personally, am proud of that lack of evil in our spirits.
    However I emphatically believe:
    We must secure America’s borders against illegal immigration, YESTERDAY would not be too soon.

  21. ubs July 5, 2010 at 10:57 am #

    Where does this enthusiasm for passenger rail transportation come from? I just priced out a railroad trip through northern Italy for myself and my family. It was prohibitively expensive. I might as well have someone fly us from place to place in a helicopter. Aside from that, I can see the attraction of traveling through the European Alps in a train. But how much fun would it be to stare a corn fields for 40 hours? The USA is uniquely unsuitable for a passenger railroad system. The distances are simply too large. Aside from that, the last thing we need right now is another bottomless whole into which to shovel more tax dollars. There is a very simple solution to excessive oil consumption: drive less. And that will happen by itself as oil prices go up. People will drive less and buy more fuel-efficient vehicles. No government intervention or new monster bureaucracies required. So there is really no problem here. I am more concerned about peak-beer than peak-oil.

  22. Laura Louzader July 5, 2010 at 10:59 am #

    “The main effect of 70 years of federal intervention for the sake of “affordable” housing has been to drive the price of housing up far beyond the ability of normal people to afford a place to live. And the current policies devised during the bubble crackup crisis have only served to prevent the price of houses from returning to a level where people might be willing to buy them. Of course, the whole process has also encouraged local governments to jack up property taxes to a level that can only be described as intolerable (in the 1776 sense of the word).”
    JHK is saying something here I absolutely agree with, actually MANY things I agree with. I think I’ll join his party, with a few reservations.
    I’ve been saying exactly the same thing about the housing market for decades. The housing projects made life impossible for the next class up from the project dwellers, as more and more city nabes were destroyed to build these things. That made the “housing affordability” programs like FHA and VA loans necessary, which drove up prices. Then came along the GSE’s to buy the bad mortgages as fast as the lenders could write them.
    Pull the government support, and current house values will drop 50%.
    You can say the same for every other industry, and this is where Kunstler gets it wrong. If the government can’t run the housing industry effectively, it can’t run transportation, either, and government intervention in the transportation industry has given us our pathological auto dependence, murdered our railroads that were doing quite well and generating lavish profits on their own, thank you, and fostered dependence on air travel. Since the 1940s, federal policy has worked to destroy our railroads while lavishing subsidies on airlines and auto transit. So it’s pretty illogical to believe that a government bureaucracy can rebuild our railroads with the best will in the world. A government-sponsored rail system will just be Amtrak only larger and more wasteful, and even worse at doing its job.
    Get the government out of housing, out of transportation, and out of the utilities.
    And out of finance- the only reason the banks got too big and generated the biggest gambling spree in history is that it was always understood that the government would back them up if their bets failed. After TWO major govn’t bailouts, the S L& L bailout of the 80s and then the LTC bailout of the 90s, the die was cast- the LTC bailout in especial was the signal to the financial combines that they could do no wrong that the Feds would not bail them out of, and to go hog-wild with the leverage, because our governing pols decided to generate economic “growth” by means of debt creation and asset inflation. Make no mistake, the financial debacle was a creation of our top policy makers and backed by the insurers of the last resort- the taxpayers.

  23. progressorconserve July 5, 2010 at 11:00 am #

    Another slogan:
    Either prove me wrong……or help devise a plan to make a few planet saving messages GO VIRAL.
    It is indeed late.
    But not to late.
    “Do not give up the good fight.”

  24. jawbone July 5, 2010 at 11:02 am #

    Maybe if more people would wear a f—ing condom there would be more resources to go around on the planet. Human making dumb decisions about bringing people in the world they can’t provide for.

  25. Chad M July 5, 2010 at 11:03 am #

    from an author who has written about global fresh water resources:
    “Making Things Better … Undoing Human Made Calamities”
    “As already suggested, nothing we do, not even on a large scale, will prevent the change from happening, unless we fix the population problem and the orientation of our growth-manic economy and make the switch from fossil fuel energy to something closer to sustainability”
    this relates to JHKs peak oil ideas and the US economic policy focus on growth at any cost.
    from: “The End: Natural Disasters, Manmade Catastrophes, and the Future of Human Survival” page 295
    by Marq De Villiers.

  26. ozone July 5, 2010 at 11:03 am #

    See there? Mr. Kunstler is an optimist and does have real solutions to real problems. Decent “platform” all the way ’round.
    However [sigh], until it becomes extremely dangerous to be an “overlord”, or “freebooter”, or parasite, the present status quo bullshit “order” will continue… until it doesn’t. Personally, I foresee disaster. “Use it flagrantly, until it’s all gone”, seems to be the recurring theme of homo-not-so-sapiens. Wish I could think of something good to say about the whole wide world, but things will go on (badly) as they are until there’s no more “profit” to be had. The large problem with that is: a global death sentence will likely have already been handed down due to uncontrolled rapine and plunder.
    A big bunch of good working men and women hereabouts, so I’ll continue to advocate for local preparation as the very best we can do.
    JHK (quite correctly) recommends using today’s resources to prepare for tomorrow’s challenges. I’m definitely with him on that! It’s just that WAY too many people are lost in this nonsensical illusion of “recovery” (read: unending comfort and waste of finite resources).

  27. The Mook July 5, 2010 at 11:03 am #

    Killing Americans for fun and profit might be a good starting point for Jim’s new party. Get the new party together with the Arab whackos and point out which ones to whack. Start with the ones the current administration fails to even prosecute for their crimes against America as well as the rest of the world! One million dollars a piece should generate some attention and start the clean-up. If we can’t clean up our owm mess maybe we should out-souce that business also.

  28. indyamerican July 5, 2010 at 11:07 am #

    How long before people start leaving America to get away from the impending collapse of the American governmental system? It is obvious that their is a daily devolution of our system occurring. Stay and fight through the coming Yugoslavian-style breakdown with perhaps less violence, or get while the getting is good? Our system is broken, there isn’t much hope of reclaiming it’s beautiful legacy without some sort of revolutionary upheaval that as every day passes seems to require greater and greater severity to succeed.
    Will western civilization persist or will we just let it disappear under the weight of unmitigated immigration? How do we avoid slipping into some conflict that reveals all of the primal energy that has been bottled up in the minds of the men of western civilization due to politically correct BS?
    The sooner we fight and resist to preserve authentic American republican democracy the better. The longer this situation devolves towards American collapse, the worse the outcome will be. Start arguing now for revolutionary reform or fight later in a Balkanized America that comes apart at the seams. In this sense, I believe that the sooner we see the economic collapse of the endless Ponzi scheme our system has become, the better the chance that we actually save our Republic and preserve our constitutional form of Government.

  29. bproman July 5, 2010 at 11:13 am #

    The party is over. BUG OUT.

  30. progressorconserve July 5, 2010 at 11:16 am #

    UBS you said
    There is a very simple solution to excessive oil consumption: drive less. And that will happen by itself as oil prices go up. People will drive less and buy more fuel-efficient vehicles. No government intervention or new monster bureaucracies required. So there is really no problem here. I am more concerned about peak-beer than peak-oil.
    I would not disagree except for two things:
    1. There may be little or no American oil left for future generations by the time your “oil prices go up.”
    Our grandkids may curse our generation for burning their birthright moving beef all around the country.
    2. We in the US of A may completely DESTROY THE FREAKING ECOSYSTEM OF THE WHOLE FREAKIN’ WORLD in our quest for cheap oil and beef.
    So here is my last slogan of the day for CFN. And this one is too complicated and is aimed mostly at our current crop of democratic sell-outs because new republican sell-outs are not going even to consider even this much.
    But here goes:
    “We need a tax on gasoline that starts out low and increases incrementally for the next ten years. Proceeds of this tax should be used ONLY for alternative renewable fuels for transportation.
    And listen you democratic sell-outs (I told you this was a complicated slogan. WE DO NOT NEED FREAKIN’ COMPLICATED CAP AND TRADE! We don’t even need a “carbon tax.”
    A regular incrementing gas tax at the pump could save us….if we can be saved.
    Now, I throw my three slogans out to the group mind on CFN. And I pray that God (or TPTB if you are an Athiest) will wake up a few more souls this morning.
    The hour is late, but there may yet be time!
    Life is Good,

  31. Laura Louzader July 5, 2010 at 11:17 am #

    If you want more “people” to wear condoms and otherwise control their fertility, empower the women. We’re the ones stuck with giving birth to kid after kid under duress in conditions appallingly primitive and utterly lacking in the essentials necessary to raise healthy kids.
    To do this, we are going to have to totally neutralize the influence of religion, and make contraception and sterilization cheaper.
    Unfortunately, we have a couple of strong trends in place in this country, not to mention the nations of the “third world” that run counter to this basic good sense.
    First of all, the Fundamentalist Christians in this country are gaining power, not losing it, and the pressures and dislocations of the Long Emergency will only cause more people to turn to Fundamentalist Protestantism, the Mormon faith,and other traditional religions, which are almost all opposed to contraception and abortion on principal.
    Secondly, birth control is becoming much more expensive. This is the rub- the women who need it the most can least afford it. Oral contraceptives now cost $75 a month, which is a real burden to a woman struggling to support herself and maybe a kid or two on what she and her husband or boyfriend make at low-wage service jobs, which is what there is for so many people now. That $75 a month has to be found while paying rent of about $800, food that can cost $200/week, transportation ($85/month for a bus pass in most places), and necessaries such as soap, toothpaste, essential clothing, and life emergencies. A tubal ligation costs a minimum of $2500 these days and usually more, and many health insurance plans will not pay for this “optional” surgery.
    Needless to say, in impoverished, overcrowded countries where people can’t even access potable water, it is IMPOSSIBLE for a woman to obtain contraception even if she doesn’t have to deal with the local religious shamans. And men in these cultures have a real thing about limiting their fecundity, which is still a symbol of manhood in most places in the world. And if the guy doesn’t want to cooperate, the woman is powerless to resist.

  32. n8han July 5, 2010 at 11:18 am #

    If you’re serious about local organization:
    I’d go to a Kunstler meetup.

  33. J Lee July 5, 2010 at 11:18 am #

    But notice one of the important issues that Kunstler doesn’t mention, given that he rails about Christian fundamentalists:Israel. Does Kunstler imagine that we should continue to support that state with billions taken from our taxpayers? That we continue to support the racial cleansing? That we continue to support the refugee camps and the indiscriminate killings and targeted assassinations? And until we deal with this issue what sense can we make of any of our foreign policy?

  34. DreamCycle July 5, 2010 at 11:24 am #

    Mr. Kunstler, I agree with most your argument. I’m not sure how we are going to truly secure the border, though. I live in a small city that has a large population of Mexican immigrants. We have seen first hand the negative impact of this, as well as the positive. Many of our families came here in the 1920s to work the railroads. They completely assimilated, tax paying citizens. As for the new comers (of the last thirty years) the problem seems to have been that although it was obvious that they were arriving in droves there was absolutely no plan. Not in the schools, not in the workplace, not in law enforcement. It was really a head in the sand situation. As a result, all of those institutions suffered and we are considered a “bad” town, with some justification. The waffling on the part of the feds allowed this to happen, to the detriment of many towns like ours.
    As for a third or fourth party, I’d love to vote green or whatever, but, like many others, I feel I can’t risk ending up with a Christian Taliban Cracker overturning any and all of our hard won rights and (further) destroying the Supreme Court. I think that’s the real reason that we never have a viable alternative. Hell, the Dems didn’t even ALLOW Kucinich into the debates in the last election. But, not being an optimist at heart, I’m cheered by your glimmer of hope post.

  35. Nicho July 5, 2010 at 11:25 am #

    It’s kind of depressing to see that even JHK has bought into the phony “immigrant crisis” that needs to be “solved” by fair means or foul.
    The “infux” of Mexicans in recent years has actually become an “outflux.”
    The proof that the phony crisis has been implanted even in otherwise sane minds is that Lou Dobbs was allowed to stop his nightly rant.
    The reason the Mexicans (let’s face it — that’s what we’re talking about when we say Immigrants) is that the corporatists needed someone to take the fall when the economy and the jobs market went to shit. When Rufus, who formerly made $35 an hour in a no-longer-existent factory finally goes looking for a job swamping toilets or picking vegetables in the hot sun, the corporatists don’t want him pointing a finger at Wall Street. They want him clubbing anyone he sees who is or even looks Mexican for “stealing his job.”
    The Mexicans in the US have been set up as a scapegoat class much the same as the Jews were set up in 1920s Germany to explain the financial failure of the country.
    In a healthy economy, you need the immigrants — with or without papers — to take the shit jobs no citizen wants because of their upward mobility. The immigrants fill the vacant space at the bottom.
    However, once the corporatists have robbed the treasury, sold off the infrastructure, killed the unions, sent jobs to slave labor in China, destroyed our manufacturing base, etc. then we are in a period of extreme downward mobility.
    It’s not that Mexicans are “stealing” our jobs. It’s just that a lot of Americans are, or will be, forced to start seeking out jobs that previously only undocumented immigrants would do.
    The “immigrant crisis” is the most successful propaganda disinformation effort in the history of the US.

  36. Cash July 5, 2010 at 11:25 am #

    In this neck of the woods Mr K would be lynched (not literally) by mainstream national newspapers(left leaning), our urban intellectuals would be all bulgy eyed and most political parties would consider his statements as horribly lacking in compassion for illegal immigrants and sounding horrifyingly fascistic in his comments about not being incontinently multicultural and wanting to save something of the common culture.
    And this stuff about defending US territory? Good God (not that there is one) that sounds positively militaristic. Since when do Americans have the right to the land they live on. Asoka, help!
    What’s the matter Mr K, clitoridectomy, infibulation, suttee, purdah, the caste system, forced marriages and honour killings not your cup of tea? Many people ie the ultra hip, ultra trendy would say that maybe you are unenlightened about foreign ways, that you haven’t seen the totality of these cultures, that you need to be more accepting, more understanding, that you are freebasing right wing intolerance.
    Three cheers for Mr K. This sounds like a pretty good start on a founding manifesto.

  37. ELI316 July 5, 2010 at 11:34 am #

    ” How long before people start leaving America to get away from the impending collapse of the American governmental system?”
    I think this movement is beginning to happen already. My wife and I (who happens to be Filipino) have a house in the Philippines in her province. We planning our escape to live there if the sh*t starts to hit the fan. We have a rice farm with pigs, chickens and cow to sustain ourselves. I find this will be an exicting new chapter in my life I wish we could save this country Jim but it is far too late and each day brings more self destruction. And before anyone laughs at the idea of moving to a third world country ( as Americans like to call them) just look around this country and tell me if it is not third world already.
    As Yogi Berra once said “If you come to the fork in the road you better take it”

  38. Fouad Khan July 5, 2010 at 11:34 am #

    Finally, some activism for our man of blunt words?
    I’d say, go for it. You’d find a few more willing listeners if nothing else.

  39. indyamerican July 5, 2010 at 11:34 am #

    Multiculturalism is a bankrupt concept. Mankind is tribal, always will be tribal. Whenever the artificial economy that sustains it collapses, we will return to tribalism. If that doesn’t fit your worldview, prepare to see history repeat itself in the USA. The sooner we refute multiculturalism and political correctness the better for every tribe.

  40. progressorconserve July 5, 2010 at 11:45 am #

    Now, I’ll admit this discussion thread is a great place to start an argument….or just hear yourself type.
    But, I think it is time to stop being a musician on the Titanic, and try to save something, anything.
    And I’ve gone as local as I can. I’m prepared.
    But I’m not looking forward to it. Because long slide or short exciting collapse….collapse is gonna SUCK in ways most of you cannot imagine….yet.
    And NOW I suggest we use the power of the nearly infinite intelligence of the collective mind on CFN to do something in a macro level about the future.
    Because we may be doomed….
    But you know what an innocent little child would say about being doomed?
    “Mommy, Daddy, I don’t want to be doomed!”
    “Oil is cheap because we steal it from the future without regard to cost.”
    Good luck to all of us.
    I think we’re gonna need it!
    Life is Good!
    and now I’ve got to go pick some fresh tomatoes out of the garden and have a sandwich for lunch…
    and give a couple of extras to the neighbors

  41. Tomcat16 July 5, 2010 at 11:47 am #

    Sign me up for this tea party – I’m on board! Great post today, Jim.

  42. Poet July 5, 2010 at 11:50 am #

    First of al it’s nice to read JHK writing something in the form of constructive suggestion and not just Jermiad condemnation. My own sense of why your Tea Party won’t fly is best sumed up in your earlier and oft repeated analysis of what is wrong with the American mindset:
    It has ben conditoned to think that: “when you wish upon a star, your dreams come true” (or as the Bush adminstration official famously remarked “we invent our own reality”) The second is that you can get something for nothing–the Las Vegas ethic. This, of course, denies the economic ecology of inter-connectedness of all our activities.
    Your goals are worthy but the sacrifice and change they require is not only alien to the thinking of most Americans, but also repugnant to their sense of entitlement. By the time enough people realize that the alternative (total societal breakdown) will be worse, it will too late and the country will be as ungovernable from Washington DC as Afghanistan is from Kabul.
    Happy official federal Independence Day and try to stay cool from the sizzling heat gripping the
    East Coast.

  43. ozone July 5, 2010 at 12:03 pm #

    I truly believe “foreign policy” will be waaaaaay down the list of priorities [for this country] very shortly. In case you haven’t noticed there are plenty of asshats in this country that have bent politics to their perverted will. Dealing with that should be plenty “troublesome”.
    Perhaps direct neighbors will be an overarching concern; the world over. Water, arable land, energy resources, mineral wealth; things to be jealously guarded (or bargained away, for the unlucky). Projection of power far, far away? I’m not so sure how long that can be carried on. (…As it becomes “unprofitable”, that is.)

  44. Russ A July 5, 2010 at 12:08 pm #

    Seriously, you need to actually know what the definition of phrases you use before posting.
    You seriously believe there is a “cognative dissonance on the highest level” when it comes to parenthood??? Seriously? Do you even realize what you said?
    Having children does not make people uncomfortable in feeling they are somehow being contradictory. It is too subjective. Children will always be born. period. you really think this is “on the highest level”?? no other topic even comes close? really? nothing is more contradictory???
    This is a great example of what Mr. Kunstler and many of his readers do…they spew out nonsensical diatribe in an attempt to sound educated and philosophical. Yet in reality, you have accomplished the opposite.

  45. bossier22 July 5, 2010 at 12:11 pm #

    I drove from rural E.Texas home to Houston over the weekend to pick up my daughter fron girl scout camp and to bring my wife shopping. we made two short stops and spent the rest of the day in impossible traffic while a tropical rain poured down. I thought, Kunstler is right, this can not go on forever. And futhermore, why would we want it to.

  46. Desert Dawg July 5, 2010 at 12:12 pm #

    Outstanding article Jim! This is when you’re at your best…not taking a liberal vs conservative stance, but what we as American’s need to do, to stop bankers and the government from destroying our way of life, taking more of our liberties and sending our soldiers off to useless wars, when they should be here defending our own borders!

  47. David July 5, 2010 at 12:13 pm #

    Sign me up, Great post Jim.
    As a slogan, how about;
    Or is that too Un-American

  48. indyamerican July 5, 2010 at 12:27 pm #

    America for Americans. America First.
    Talking about action: Maybe the best action we can take is an economic one, that starves the beast of corporate globalization.

  49. Anne July 5, 2010 at 12:36 pm #

    The “immigrant problem” will be solved when people who hire illegal aliens are prosecuted. This, typically, is one or another big business. It’s not the fault of my neighbor hiring one of the guys standing on the corner at U-Haul for a few hours, it’s a systemic problem of agriculture and big corporations who hire the night cleaning crew and so on. If these were prosecuted for hiring illegals the illegal problem would end. But really, we (collectively) like having cheap fruit and vegetables and the corporations like having bigger profits from hiring cheap labor and no one has the will to go after them.
    As for saving American culture, would that be the ubiquitous strip and mini-malls, the violent Hollywood movies, the cheez doodles and Little Debbie snack cakes and Nascar, or would it be our military industrial/prison industrial complexes or perhaps it would be our particularly insane and hateful Xian fundamentalism? No, you must be speaking of the frontier spirit that allowed us to rationalize our bloody takeover of the continent and massacre of nearly all of the native population. There may be some nice individuals in America as you may find nice individuals anywhere, but I’m not sure we have much of a culture that’s worth saving.

  50. Smokyjoe July 5, 2010 at 12:46 pm #

    Two quick points:
    1)”America for Native Americans! Toss the white invaders out!” You know–that’s how all this white-boy nativist bullshit sounds to me.
    But anyhow, I’ll back Kunstler for president, because I like the rest of his agenda. But let’s not kid ourselves: in the long run, border controls will fail as surely as they did in Rome. Hungry and desperate folks will come, fleeing worse disorder as Mexico runs out of oil, and though some “patriots” will gun women and children down in a replay of Raspail’s Camp of the Saints (go read it), the inevitable will happen. A lot of the US is going to become part of Latin America, like it or not, amigos mios.
    2) JHK makes a great point about the moronic South here (I’m a Southerner, btw):
    “the tea parties first emanating out of Dixieland, where an old Scots-Irish “cracker” belligerence persists in a romantic view of violence”
    It’s called “The Sir Walter Scott Disease,” and Mark Twain diagnosed the disorder and its symptoms more than a century ago.

  51. erikSF99 July 5, 2010 at 12:46 pm #

    But people are only beginning now to RESPECT and accept the suburban life style–not reject it. Let Yahoo news explain it:
    “Derided no more, suburban life is turning serious”
    From the article:
    With more than 50 percent of the country living in places like Shawnee, it’s past time to take the suburbs seriously.
    “That’s a major shift in how we live,” said Johnson County Museum director Mindi Love. “There hasn’t been a recognition of that change. And there hasn’t been a lot of serious study on why that’s happening.”

    Robert Lang, a University Nevada-Las Vegas sociology professor who studies suburban life, blames excessive familiarity for the suburbs’ second-class status. Since suburbs constitute “the background noise of our lives,” they’re easier to ignore or dismiss, he said.
    Doing so is nothing less than rejecting inquiry into the American psyche, he suggested.
    “The United States is the first suburban nation,” he said. “In the end, these are the places … where we are going to live, no matter what.”
    “No Matter What”! 🙂

  52. ASPO Article 1037 July 5, 2010 at 12:55 pm #

    CONSTITUTION): Article I, Section 8 … Congress shall establish and maintain … “Post Roads.. (Guarantors of Societal & Commercial Cohesion in the Union of States) July 10, 1838, Act of Congress declaring ALL RAILROADS defined “Post Roads”. Private/public arrangements to put together the railroad matrix. 1862-63, Lincoln signs the Pacific Railroad Bill, establishes Standard Time zone, and standard gauge for US Railroads: 56 & 1/2″ (1435mm). Becomes worldwide standard rail gauge with Russia notable exception using 5′.
    BIBLE: Daniel 4 (KJ & RSV)offers a narrative (Nebuchanezzar’s Dream) that poses some descriptions that could fit USA role in the world until recent times, with v:15 (bands of Iron & Bronze saving remnants from final destruction) an eery description of electric railway, powered by wires of phosphur bronze metallurgy.
    USA too big for railways? Give me a break. USA was well served, fed, clothed and employed with ubiquitous rail matrix seen circa 1900-1950. Rail was prime mover making possible aviation and auto industries. Like, US was a lending not a borrowing country and could maintain commerce without significant outside energy import until Ike added the 41,000 mile freeway project in 1956.
    Freight was and continues to be the primary financial incentive to build railways, along with the military logistics aspect (Second Dimension Surface Transport Logistics Platform). US rail mains move coal and grain and millions of containers of everything that a truck brings you-all & me-all. Even the legendary passenger rail systems across the country, like the Pacific Electric and the “Roarin’ Elgin” parked the passenger equipment at night and off-peak, and did the grunt work of moving freight and victuals in & out of downtown and suburban platforms. Farmers used trucks and wagons to load & unload railcars.
    Railway is not going away, and USA has a multiplicity of short line rail operators with ability to “adopt” dormant branch lines and situate USA commerce for passage through the Oil Interregnum. See “ELECTRIC WATER” and, for US Rail Map Atlas volumes. See “OFFICIAL GUIDE” to US Railroads, circa 1920-1950 for YOUR local rail info. See “tahoevalleylines” & “alanfrombigeasy” postings in “theoildrum” for more details on railway. See ( articles 374 & 1037 for policy points.
    Richard Heinberg is Energy scientist with monthly “Museletter” for catch-uppers with initiative. Doomers & whiners, take a cold shower & pitch in, please…

  53. Bruce Bennett July 5, 2010 at 1:01 pm #

    I was interested in your comment about the Scots-Irish “cracker” influence on this situation. For anyone who is curious the subject is covered very well in Joe Bageant’s book, “Deer Hunting with Jesus”. I just finished reading it last week and it is excellent. Joe also maintains an excellent website which you can Google. He is also very disheartened by what is happening in America now and chose to live in a small town in Mexico where he seems to have avoided a great deal of of what he calls the American “Hologram”.
    I believe that we can improve the country along the lines that James Kunstler recommends. I also want the trains to come back. It was an excellent system and it is WAY more fuel efficient than cars and planes. I also believe in local produce and spending your money locally and not sending it to Bentonville, AR to fill up WalMart’s coffers any more. Just the other day a man suggested that I could pick up an item at WalMart and I told him that I will never shop there and he was very surprised by my answer.
    For me, I’m fortunate to live in a college town where I can use my bike to go to most of the places that I need to. We have a great “natural” foods store and there is still lots of open land for the growing of more local food if need be.
    My great worry is that while the local movement will surely grow due to the pressure of “Peak Everything” there will be a limited number of communities that do so. I can see the majority of Americans becoming increasingly angry at the way that their “Dream” is being stolen from them and they will turn to more extreme politics and actions in a pathetic fantasy of trying to get it back. There are many of us who will never accept that the “Leave It To Beaver” USA is gone for good.

  54. Nickelthrower July 5, 2010 at 1:03 pm #

    Having just spent a month in N. Italy I can say that you are wrong about the cost of train travel in N. Italy. With automobile fuel at over $8 a gallon and anything larger than a goat trail a toll road, it is much much cheaper to travel by train.
    Hunt around for Regional trains and avoid the Rapido trains and you’ll find that you can get around without too much pain.
    I found that I could travel from Verona to Venice for about $20USD – pretty cheap.
    Good luck

  55. RedGypsy July 5, 2010 at 1:07 pm #

    How can you expand on this. You set the nail in one swipe.
    I am just afraid that it is too late.

  56. Qshtik July 5, 2010 at 1:09 pm #

    In the event that you missed it, at 3:01 this morning under the prior weeks “Say What?” essay Wagelaborer had this to say:

    The bodies of 3,000 people were not moldering and smelling up Manhattan. Those people had been blown into smithereens and the extreme heat of the explosions prevented the smell of heaps of bodies of moldering flesh. Rescuers picked up the bits they could find. Some of the tiny bits of people were flung on top of neighboring buildings, to be found years later and buried with elaborate ceremony. They certainly weren’t moldering in piles in October!

    In a google search I found Wage’s words to be right on the money. See below:

    A small number of survivors and surprisingly few intact victims’ remains were found in the rubble of the WTC. The forces unleashed by the towers’ disintegration were so great that many of those trapped in the buildings were pulverized in the collapse. Some victims had to be identified by a few scraps of flesh or individual teeth. Most bodies were never found, presumably because the heat of the fires incinerated them. As late as April 2006, small fragments of human remains were still being found on adjacent buildings in New York. … The attacks released dense clouds of dust containing pulverized cement, glass fibers, asbestos, and other airborne contaminants.

    What a relief to my psyche to know I was all wet on this issue and that Wage was right. To know that what wafted my way when the winds were right (I live about 20 miles from ground zero as the crow flies) was mostly “pulverized cement, glass fibers, asbestos, and other airborne contaminants” and that “The forces unleashed by the towers’ disintegration were so great that many of those trapped in the buildings were pulverized” and what remained was “a few scraps of flesh or individual teeth.”
    Thanks for pointing this out Wage. Had I known this on 10/6/01 I wouldn’t have been so hot for the retribution that began the next day. Not “rotting in a smoldering heap” – merely pulverized and incinerated – I feel so much better now and I will try to restrain the artifice in my own writing of which I so frequently accuse others.

  57. SD Mittelsteadt-AZ July 5, 2010 at 1:12 pm #

    I was completely on board until the population-illegal immigration paragraphs. I agree that we must somehow figure out how to curb population growth and I also believe we must restrict legal immigration “to a trickle.” However, the Arizona law does promote racial profiling and is a serious violation of our liberties as Americans, especially those of Hispanic descent. Too many people think the opposition to this law involves protecting illegal immigrants when in fact it is about protecting those who are legal and those people who are citizens.

  58. ExtraO July 5, 2010 at 1:26 pm #

    Uh, Jim, before you get up on a high horse and talk about getting serious about applying sanctions to people who are in the US illegally, you might think about the effect that will have on Americans that live in other countries. Americans from whom the entire USA derives great but mostly unrecognized benefits.
    Much like General Anthony Zinni’s (among other prominent retired military) pointing out how fucking dumb it was to allow torture and humiliation of prisoners to take place at Abu-Ghraib, as it will only make life more miserable and hazardous for any future captured US troops, harsh enforcement of US laws against foreigners -no matter how justified they may be, or seem to be from the inside- is often the excuse for retaliation against your compatriots abroad. Retaliation which does take place, regularly and about which the perpetrators feel completely justified. Frankly what you wrote was boneheaded. You sound like one of those right-wing dingbat politicos that you’ve so often warned about, and if you were shooting for satirical irony, the joke didn’t work.

  59. Cash July 5, 2010 at 1:53 pm #

    So if the US should not apply sanctions (kick out) people in your country illegally does it not follow that foreign countries should not apply sanctions to Americans in their country illegally?
    And if that’s the case should Americans not be allowed by Mexicans to just walk across the border and occupy whatever parts of Mexico they please without sanctions the same way that Mexicans are doing to the US?
    Or do you see Mexico (population 100 million plus with a long heritage of civilizational brilliance and achievement from both its Aboriginal and Western roots) as a poor, tiny, helpless victim of Yanqui oppression and imperialism, one whose problems all stem from the damned Americans? So Mexicans ought to be given a break?
    Should Americans be allowed by Canada to just saunter across the border and set up shop without asking permission? Should the US allow Canadians to do this? No?

  60. truthteller July 5, 2010 at 2:02 pm #

    Dark Fired Tobacco;
    Glad to see someone else here familiar with our railroad situation. I’ve been involved in the effort to improve and increase rail passenger service in the U. S. for over 30 years, and have been an active railroader for both Amtrak and a freight railroad for almost 25 years.
    Probably the biggest problems we face in improving rail passenger service are 1) the control of the freight railroads over most current rail corridors in the U. S., and 2) the domination of highway and airline interests in our political transportation planning process. Even the supposedly pro-passenger rail Obama Administration has cut back it’s commitment to major new spending for high speed rail programs. Many of these programs also contain major money for basic infrastructure improvements that would enable expansion of conventional rail service, such as the restoration of passenger service between Cincinnati, Dayton, Columbus, and Cleveland, Ohio. Service that has not existed since Amtrak started in 1971. There are those of us in Ohio have tried to get this restoration for over 35 years. It looks like we are closer than we have ever been before, but conservative, corporate opposition keeps pushing back hard. We have a grant of $400 mil. in stimulus money to do this, however, the neo-cons want to let the money go back to DC on “priniciple”, of not using federal public money for something like rail passenger service. The real principle at work here are the highway interests that dominate state government and don’t want to see any significant money spent on anything that is not a highway project. I don’t know how you get past this problem without a total collapse of the status quo? At this point the freight railroads involved have not been seriously opposed to the project, since a lot of the money to be spent would also improve the infrastructure of their physical plants to accommodate the additional traffic and eliminate some dangerous highway grade crossings. Every other state that has implemented state supported Amtrak service has exceeded projections for ridership (about 12 states so far), none of them exceeding a 79 mph average speed. So, true HSR is not necessary to get people to ride trains. Every country that has HSR already had an extensive network of conventional rail passenger service to begin with. As Jim continually points out, we have a rail passenger system the third world would be ashamed of. We have to learn to crawl before we can run.

  61. lpat July 5, 2010 at 2:18 pm #

    The government, the government, the government, the government, the government. Who the hell do you people think “the government” is? The American people? Surely you’re not that dumb.
    Some genetically manipulated race of clones bred and trained to function by their own set of rules?
    No, folks. When you’re talking about keeping “the government” out of housing, transportation and utilities, you’re talking about turning over the running of those enterprises to exactly the same class of people, indeed the very same people, who wrote the rules and ran them into the ground to start with. The rich, the priviledged, the corporatists. Who run “the government.”
    Freeing business to run itself soley on the principle of sheer, pure, unadulturated greed ain’t the answer. Been asleep the last 30 years?

  62. darksumomo July 5, 2010 at 2:31 pm #

    There is already an answer to the Tea Party based on critical thinking. It’s called the Coffee Party. Here’s what it stands for:

    This is the Coffee Party vision for uniting America.
    Reason and civility in public affairs; A government of public servants accountable to the People; A People committed to the Common Good & Civic Virtue.
    This vision may seem too idealistic to some. Too difficult. Naive. Impossible. To us, that’s tantamount to saying let’s give up on America. And to give up on America is to give up on the most important experiment in modern history: Democracy.
    Most of us are aware of the ways in which lobbyists and special interest are corrupting Congress. We often talk about how our politicians are failing us. Or the media. Or the lack of transparency and accountability in government. All these concerns are valid and reform in these areas are critical to improving our democracy. We intend to work hard to address these concerns.
    However, we also believe that in an important way we are failing ourselves and our democracy.
    Our participation level during elections and in the ongoing democratic process is so low — especially at the local and state levels — that our governments become more vulnerable to the influence of organized extremists and big-pocketed special interest.
    The extremists and special interest skew the wants and needs of the majority of Americans. In short, they thwart the will of the People.
    It’s time for the common sense of the majority of Americans to be at the center of our politics.
    For the upcoming election, the Coffee Party goal is to increase participation across the board and call on all Americans to participate. We need the majority to make the kind of systemic changes we need to make in our political process.
    To get money out of politics, we can’t do it as a few individual advocates or even a coalition of many good organizations. We need the will of the People, the majority of Americans.
    In general, the Coffee Party mission is to create an informed and involved citizenry. We aspire to create a community of people who care about facts, solutions, the sanctity of our democracy and one another. We continue to cultivate our values — civility, respect, personal responsibility and compassion — and integrate them into our actions, the Coffee Party methodology for social change.
    I hope that you join us by committing to this project. It’s hard work and it will be a long journey. We cannot make these cultural and institutional changes overnight.
    The journey begins now.

    They quite agree with Jim about the major parties being hostages to political money, and would also agree about many of his goals. The only thing they would not agree with Jim about would be severe restrictions on legal immigration, as Annabel Park, the Coffee Party’s nominal leader, is Korean-American and would not get on board with any policy she sees as immigrant bashing.
    Just the same, Jim and all the rest of you would be quite welcome at a meeting near him, so long as he and any of you sign the Coffee Party Civility Pledge.
    “As a member or supporter of the Coffee Party, I pledge to conduct myself in a way that is civil, honest, and respectful toward people with whom I disagree. I value people from different cultures, I value people with different ideas, and I value and cherish the democratic process.”
    I’m pretty sure that Jim can remain civil for the length of a meeting. I’ve seen him be be civil during interviews, for example. I’m sure a lot of the rest of you can, too.
    As far as such a movement not catching on, it already has. Coffee Party USA has 228,614 fans on Facebook. That’s right up there with the Tea Party Patriots, the largest Tea Party group on Facebook, with 292,680 fans.

  63. asia July 5, 2010 at 2:32 pm #

    ‘The “immigrant crisis” is the most successful propaganda disinformation effort in the history of the US……….’
    spoken like an aztlander lib! dont think youll fool too many who read this blog!
    abd progres cob=nserve:

  64. budizwiser July 5, 2010 at 2:34 pm #

    There is little doubt that most of America is frustrated with the power the “satisfied half” is wielding.
    All these disparate topics, from anti-immigration to financial sector reform to unending, unsolvable military engagements all have “another side” vehemently supporting them or at best ignoring or trivializing their importance.
    The enormous weight of these fictions are enough to make any sane person go all “tea party.” I wish there were a way find a common ground among the likes of the various CF Nations that exist out there and come to single unifying consensus on the subject of energy.
    For now, the political waters of discontent grow increasingly muddy as the legitimacy of our government wanes and the ignorance of the currently satisfied and appeased Americans continues.
    As the Bard from Minnesota once lamented: “There’s something goin’ on here, but you don’t know what it is – do you Mr. Jones.”
    You’re preachin’ to the choir Jim, but Mr Jones is out on I95 pulling his boat to the lake……

  65. David July 5, 2010 at 2:47 pm #

    The Coffee Party may be all well and good, but I have a gut feeling about Facebook, Twitter and even Google. This social networking thing gives me the willys It’s everywhere. And when the Main Stream Media starts touting it, that scares the crap out of me.

  66. mose_martian July 5, 2010 at 2:56 pm #

    Your tea party doesn’t comment on the ”Special Relationship” between Israel and the USA…and your tea party keeps on blabbering about Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan but brushes away the root-cause of Middle East turmoil…namely the Palestine Conflict…Your party conveniently forgets the AIPAC lobbyists and the unflinching and unilateral support that the politicians purported by this lobby extend to Israli occupation and apartheid style politics…
    All in all…like every tea party…you’ve got your skeletons to hide in the closet…
    As they say in Italian…Tutto fumo e niente arrosto…All smoke and no roast…

  67. darksumomo July 5, 2010 at 3:13 pm #

    David, I appreciate your sentiment and recognize the irony of using Facebook statistics as a means of measuring things. I believe Facebook to be the part of the Internet most captured by capitalism and as such is integral to what Joe Bageant (and starting last week, Jim himself) calls “The Hologram.” My deep-seated feeling about Facebook’s effect on society is summed up by the catchphrase “while the world burns, Farmville thrives.” Facebook is mostly a gigantic profitable distraction, even though it can be subverted to rally people for worthy causes such as the Coffee Party, which began on Facebook.
    That said, it is the biggest game in town and a convenient, consistent, and commensurate way to determine the relative popularity of people and causes. Speaking of which, I’m sure it says something that Lady Gaga has more Facebook fans (10,792,341 and counting) than any living person. She surpassed President Obama (9,875,366 fans) last week.

  68. heavyenlightenedone July 5, 2010 at 3:14 pm #

    Jim’s Nirvana.
    He will have to beat the concept of “free will”, from the population first though.
    That would be after re-writing the constitution, and before we enter fascism again.
    But maybe??

  69. Lara's Dad July 5, 2010 at 3:14 pm #

    Hear, hear !

  70. Paul Kemp July 5, 2010 at 3:34 pm #

    Well, Jim, When are you going to announce your candidacy? This is a great post, almost a manifesto.
    I have found Obama to be particularly out of touch lately when he talks about ramping up the space exploration program again (with everything else he’s got going on). To see these cheery announcements in the news that there is plenty of water on the moon is so absurd, but it must be the meds that journalists take these days.
    And talk of “winning” the Afghan conquest by Petraeus is really choice. LMAO!
    Your post is a breath of fresh air compared to most of our day-to-day reality. Unfortunately, it’s going to be a real fight to get from here to the reality you’re talking about.
    In fact, the present administration seems determined to bankrupt the country as fast as possible. For what purpose, I wonder? To lock us into further indentured servitude to the Banksters, the Medical/Pharmaceutical Cartel, and the Military-Industrial-Complex, perhaps.
    Feed us synthesized corn by-products to keep us sick, dumb, and destitute so we don’t live long enough to collect the Social Security money they can’t pay?
    But no matter! I’m counting on them to slip up and be hoist by their own petard. I believe the good will somehow prevail, but we’ve got our work cut out for us.
    One small disagreement with your lumping of all the Tea Party into one category: A whole lot of the tea party got its start from the success Ron Paul had in his recent run for the Republican candidate for Prez in ’08.
    A lot of what you’re saying sounds like the litany of issues that Paulistas like myself are all in favor of. I like that.
    What we need is an alliance of Left and Right to throw out most of those currently in office — at ALL levels — and re-take control of this country.
    Peacefully is my intention. It may not happen that way, but we can hope.
    The only question is whether the bums in office will be willing to go peacefully or will pull some shenanigan like a Wag-the-Dog war or postponing the election.
    We’ll cross that bridge when we get to it.
    For a comprehensive program of what to avoid in your diet, what to embrace, and how to prepare for a lot more physical future, visit:

  71. Vlad Krandz July 5, 2010 at 3:46 pm #

    At last Mr Kunstler comes out on Immigration – and He gets it right. Truly a great post – good mid twentieth century liberalism, the kind that made us the envy of the world; the kind that was pre-affirmative action and political correctness; when a man could support a family on one paycheck; when a man could still be a man. Why we could solve unemployment tomorrow if we sent these people packing. Most of them will leave of their own accord – don’t believe the people who fantasize otherwise. Yes there may be trouble in Southern California – but nothing we can’t handle if we have the will. Just bring home a few of those divisions from Afghanistan next July and that should suffice. They are coming home right? I mean no one doubts that, right?
    And notice Mr Kunstler specifies just a trickle of LEGAL IMMIGRANTS. Does everyone realize that we are still bringing in between 130,000 to 150,000 legal immigrants every month? How can the unemployment figures possibly improve if we are doing that? It’s madness and treason to the people of this nation to have such a policy during a crisis like this.
    To the clowns who prefer Mexico and Mexicans to Americans: please walk your deranged talk and go relocate there. But be sure and do it legally – the Mexicans stricly enforce their immigration laws. Does that make the Mexicans hypocrites? Why, yes it does. Thank you for noticing that.

  72. Vlad Krandz July 5, 2010 at 4:01 pm #

    The illegal Mexicans already here have to go home too, Teddie. Don’t be a big softie. But it doesn’t have to be brutal either. Most will leave on their own when they realize we’re serious. Of course, being serious means e-verify and massive million dollar fines for companies caught employing illegals. Then we’ll really have a clean slate – and lots of job openings!
    The very idea that you can have more than one culture in a Nation is patently absurd anyway. If you have that, then you no longer have a Nation but merely a political entity, a country or even an empire. But countries and empires are artificial and have no real organic life. They don’t last very long. Real Nations, like Japan and China, have lasted for millenia and may last many more – as long as they maintain the purity of their bloodlines, the wellspring of culture. Esta la Vida!

  73. Michael Janzen July 5, 2010 at 4:05 pm #

    Can you NOT call it a “Tea Party” though? As you point out, there seem to be too many negative connotations associated with the current corporate backed tea party groups.
    I bet there are some other equally important historic events that could be the basis of the part name… since Tea Party is taken.
    Or you could find something memorable and funny like the Brewskys or Brewsky Party… I’d join that 🙂 LOL

  74. SNAFU July 5, 2010 at 4:14 pm #

    “Who the hell do you people think “the government” is?””The rich, the privileged, the corporatists.”
    Correct you are Lpat. Is it not astounding that so many Americans fail to comprehend that the reason the US Government is involved with big business is because big business is our Government and of course they want Government intervention to assure the maximum transfer of wealth from the many to the few.
    Laura mentioned how well the railroads had done on their own for all of the years they have been in business. How about the railroad land grants back in the 1800’s? “Between 1850 and 1870, over 129 million acres — seven percent of the continental United States — had been ceded to 80 railroad companies. Most of that land was west of the Mississippi.” I first became aware of this practice when I was stationed in CA, back in the late 60’s and 70’s, and I discovered large areas of the Sierra’s belonged to the RRs which drove me to delve into the politics of such. Every other square (as in mile^2) was deeded to the RR’s along many of the tracks built from the East to the West coasts. I suppose an outright gift of about a 130 million acres could be considered a paltry bit of assistance; however I think one might argue that acquiring 7% of the land area of the continental US, sans the outlay of payment to the people, was akin to the bank baron bailouts.

  75. Steve Knox July 5, 2010 at 4:38 pm #

    One of your best. Where do I sign up for your tea party? Just possibly, America is ready for some facts and truth, rather than the fiction we’ve been getting. Real change always come from the bottom, and just maybe your comments could start a grassroots effort. I am ready.
    Stephen T. Knox
    Albany, NH

  76. econ101 July 5, 2010 at 5:12 pm #

    I like much of your Tea Party.
    What I think you ahould be also looking at as a reason to close down our porous borders is the racist exploitation of people illegally crossing our borders with the poison of drugs. These people are exploited and abused, immersed in involuntery servatude by criminals.
    This is SLAVERY.
    Politicians who support lax border security are in league with those criminals and support slavery, they are committing treason by undermining the Constitution.
    The democrats supported slavery in the 1850s, they supported Jim Crow in the 1950s, in 2010 the object of that slavery is no longer blacks, but rather Latinos.
    Poor hungry and uneducated these people were displaced from their lands due to the NAFTA and rendered prime targets for exploitation by washington politicians, K street lobbists and wall street executives.
    Afghanistan, Iraq and the other military adventures of republicans and democrats are the direct decendents of Viet Nam and the drug trade from Aisia and South America to the US. A trade that stabs the heart of America and leads us down the path to subjigation.

  77. Vlad Krandz July 5, 2010 at 5:15 pm #

    Pretty coincidental that Asoka flies the anti-illegal flag just last night. Too coincidental? Could Kunstler and Asoka be as one? Or is he just psychic and insecure?

  78. Michael Rothman July 5, 2010 at 5:21 pm #

    Jim, We have an aging workforce, some of whom will be able to retire. The new immigrants are coming from Mexico and Central America. They do pay into Social Security. A hundred years ago, the scientific racists said that 60% of the immigrant Jews from Eastern Europe were morons, and look how well we’ve done.

  79. Bobby July 5, 2010 at 5:28 pm #

    This man gets it!!
    The ruling class sets each immigrant group against the subsequent one by giving them a taste of upward mobility (turning the ambitious into foremen), and defining their (manipulated) success as a reward for virtue. Those scraggly strangers are the ones threatening his sons from getting to the mansions, so, let’s keep those inferior ones out.
    I’ll also suggest that the Arabs are being set up as the scapegoat for the profligate use of fossil fuels, which have been exploited by the corporatist for their insatiable appetites.
    “Woe to the Downpressor.” – Bob Marley

  80. progressorconserve July 5, 2010 at 5:32 pm #

    Vlad, I’m not going to say I totally disagree with you. Of course, I’m not going to say I totally agree with you, either.
    I’m trying to forge an alliance here, remember…. To save the world for my grandson.
    I’d like to do some give and take on your arguments at the end of the week when the thread runs down.
    Right now, I’m trying to engage CF Nation to make Jim’s (and my) ideas GO VIRAL, and I’d like to encourage us all to cool it on the racist talk for a couple of days.
    And I have a bone to pick with qshtik. Stand by, Vlad, I think you’ll like it.

  81. empirestatebuilding July 5, 2010 at 5:57 pm #

    Oh no, your Tea Party is based in reality and it is hard for me to grasp reality. I want to keep living in this fantasy world that we’ve created.
    This week marks my 1 year anniversary of unemployment. No end in site and no hope of an end.
    I need the fantasy of perpetual growth and right around the corner fixes. I don’t do well when the TV is unplugged and the lights are off.
    Aimlow Joe was here.

  82. Peter Winkler July 5, 2010 at 6:15 pm #

    Damn dirty Mexicans. Waiter, where the Hell is my salad?

  83. dryadsdad July 5, 2010 at 6:20 pm #

    Superb essay – best yet. I’d add removing subsidies for reproduction. You want a kid – you pay for it – not your neighbor.
    I think I can add a few more, but this is a darn good start of the list for a tea party I can join.

  84. ctemple July 5, 2010 at 6:31 pm #

    I agree with most of Jim’s new Tea Party but I would point out that neo conservatives are as responsible for these stupid wars as people sitting around waiting for the world to end in Armageddon. Radio twerp blow hards like Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity, talking head war mongers at Fox Network, like William Krystol, neo conservatives like John McCain, who isn’t conservative at all, but is basically just a war monger, bear a great deal of responsibility.
    Or reporters who never seem to be right about anything like Tom Friedman, or officials like Don Rumsfeld, Condoleezza Rice, Paul Wolfowitz, last, and absolutely not least, Undertaker Cheney and Gravedigger Bush; who used 9/11 as an excuse to start the Iraq War.
    The Democrats with a hand full of exceptions, Dennis Kucinich, being one, have been completely pathetic at opposing the Iraq and Afghanistan wars as well.
    To change the subject, if somebody wanted to make a time capsule of the shameless stupidity of what Jim calls the Era of Happy Motoring, they could start by putting in a dvd copy of Smokey and the Bandit.

  85. progressorconserve July 5, 2010 at 6:32 pm #

    I did not intend to take this up until the end of the week. But then I saw your little handle on CFN, qshtik. And this seems too important to wait. So with apologies to new readers, here goes:
    Honestly, qshtik, you seem like the type who will begin to ignore my comments because you disagree with them…your loss, man, no problem.
    But read this one qshtik.
    Your behavior last week with femme was reprehensible.
    Your first response to femme was OK….well maybe OK. Because femme (if you even read what she said) is a midwife from Australia. She and I had a good back-and-forth exchange last week. She taught me a couple of things. I hope I gave her some ideas.
    qshtik, qshtik….gotta keep you reading
    And femme has a lot to offer to a website like this. Because if your believe even a little bit of what JHK is selling, home births are hanging out there as something we need to think about. (yeah, yeah, about which we need to think.)
    So you corrected femme’s grammar. Well, OK, standard qshtik so far. (and parenthetically, you or some force hold these blog comment threads to a high grammar/sentence structure standard….which is not a bad thing.)
    Then you posted this:
    Eye spoak to soon were baak two ruhn-awn centenzez exsetruh washen shity dipes an ok Asock ill taek Germiny.
    This is unforgivable without an apology, qshtik.
    You have disrespected a “first time visitor” to our “home,” on CFN. And from my Southern bred perspective you have done something just as bad, which is that you have disrespected a female for no reason at all.
    If we were sitting at the same table, I’d be going all NASCAR oval on your ass right about now.
    (And I’m not a NASCAR fan…it was the best Southern JHK paraphrase I could devise on short notice.)
    You do not owe me an apology. You do however, owe an apology to femme and to the readers on CFN.
    And if I’m out of line you can tell me why.
    We will wait with interest.
    And now, on to saving the planet, I have three slogans for JHK’s new tea party:
    “Oil is cheap because we steal it from the future without regard to cost.”
    “Illegal immigration is bad for Mexico, bad for the US and bad for the planet.”
    “A new gas tax now will help the US move in the future.”
    Yours in service to all,
    All our weekend guests all left with fresh garden tomatoes.
    Life is Good!

  86. San Jose Mom 51 July 5, 2010 at 6:57 pm #

    Just a San Jose bureau report on the subject of poor/illegals having babies….
    During last night’s neighborhood 4th of July party, I talked to my friend who is an attending physician in OB/GYN at VMC (the county hospital where women without insurance go to have their babies). She says that the number of births, especially among latinos is WAY down at her facility. She doesn’t know if they’ve left the valley, or are practicing birth control because of the poor economy.
    Is good sense starting to prevail?

  87. Laura Louzader July 5, 2010 at 7:32 pm #

    You speak of the land grants given to railroads that enabled their westward expansion. That’s appropriate- it was misguided corporate welfare on a massive scale and its consequences were disastrous for our country, for these land grants not only enabled the railroads to profit from transcontinental lines that otherwise would have been economically unfeasible for them, but triggered the expansion of our population into the west, where we then compounded the error by authorizing the Bureau of Reclamation to build the dozens of large dams that make it possible to run a city of 2 million in the middle of the most arid climate in the world- and which we will not have the fuel or money to maintain as we slide down the slope.
    The railroads were profitable on their small lines and inter-urbans between northeastern and midwestern cities. These lines were built in response to existing demand, and supported themselves.
    The transcontinental lines, on the other hand, could never have been built without massive public assistance, such as land grants, because they could not justify themselves economically when they were built, and government intervention in the form of massive land grants was not only a violation of free market principals, but a massive mistake that set this country on a course that has resulted in the formation of cities containing tens of millions of people that absolutely will not be able to sustain themselves in their desert cities when fuel becomes expensive and scarce. We cannot, for example, afford to decommission the dangerous Glen Canyon Dam that nearly failed in 1983 when the Colorado hit flood stage, and we can only be thankful for the drought, because BuRec has chosen NOT to decommission this badly built, badly sited, under-engineered dam, because we just can’t afford it even now.
    The failures will grow more frequent and drastic in our large, unsustainable systems as we go down the slope… because these systems always were too big and too ambitious, and could never have been realized to begin with had our leaders not had the power to tax us to pay for them. It is sad- these plans were made with the best of intentions. Roosevelt only wanted to get people out of the fetid city slums and he and his brain trust thought that mass suburbanization and car ownership, with the assistance of FHA and the GSEs and the construction of major highways, was the way to achieve that. We did not have the wherewithal to make his vision a reality until after WW2, and only the taxing power of the government made it possible…. and now we know it should never have been realized.
    The problem with government-sponsored mega-plans that are to be applied to the whole population is that they are so large and sweeping, and acquire so much inertia, that once we realize they are taking us in the wrong direction, they are impossible to stop or reverse until the full damage has been done. While a privately funded railroad can only lay lines in response to existing demand, and thus make only small mistakes that it must back away from when they don’t work, the government can just continue to pursue a policy that clearly is failing. The federally funded high rise housing projects come to mind. So does the interstate highway system, which enabled our population to think of highways as “free” and to easily commute 20 miles a day.
    If we want functional railroads that meet our needs, the way to do that is reverse the punitive tax laws our railroads have labored under since the 1940s and STOP SUBSIDIZING THEIR COMPETITION. Would YOU try to build a “rapid” (90-120MPH) rail from Chicago to St. Louis knowing that you will have to shovel millions into fighting Southwest Airlines and United Airlines? We throw $14B a year at the airlines in direct subsidies, just as we continue to massively subsidize auto travel.
    We don’t have to “help” or subsidize the industries we need- we need mostly to stop obstructing them and subsidizing their competition.

  88. shecky July 5, 2010 at 7:43 pm #

    Nice that JHK has made his position clear regarding the whole border/immigration issue. It is not the only challenge we face, nor the most important. I would say that ending our dependence on petroleum, gas and coal is top, followed by our militarism and its attendant cost, and then by the economic meltdown caused by greedy criminals and abetted by greedy politicians. Our bizarre system of producing and distributing food is another high priority.
    Note that all of these issues are connected to the phenomenon of Peak Oil, and that if we wait til we run out of the stuff most of these problems will fix themselves, although few people will be happy with the way that shakes out. If you see the gas gauge dropping to E, you can keep driving and hope you run out as you are pulling into your cul-de-sac, or you can pull over at a safe place and take the bus. Sorry, the gas station is closed; what is your plan B? You either have one or you start walking.
    Still, with the realization of the limitation of our energy assets comes the understanding of the need to limit our population. Immigration was a large part of the building of our nation, but its part is done. Close the door, and clean up the house.
    And yeah, I understand that stabilizing our population numerically will doom Social Security and Wall Street style capitalism, both of them Ponzi schemes predicated upon infinite growth. I am 55 and close to broke, so with regard to Social Security I have a lot to lose, but trying to bribe me or scare me will not change my conclusion that the current system is unworkable in the very long term.
    Drastically cutting the military budget, nationalizing energy resources, and taxing the shit out of energy use would help to keep the SS program tottering along for a bit, probably necessary to sell it to the Silvered Legions who fear losing the promised payoff for their long participation in the milking of the future.
    At some point, I hope soon, people could conclude that taking care of the elderly, the disabled and the unfortunate is a higher priority than acquiring and operating bass boats, video games, golf courses, cruise ships and casinos. If Americans contributed half of their current recreational spending to our social obligations we would all be better off. I am no ascetic, but I find the American devotion to distractionary fun to be kinda sad. It speaks to the emptiness of our lives that we need to be constantly entertained. Maybe Oprah can do a show about it.
    There really is much to enjoy in tending a garden, teaching a kid to fix a bike, or sitting quietly and going within. A less cluttered life would benefit most people, though they will cling bitterly to the crap that is holding them back. Folks think that, having worked hard all their lives, they deserve a golfy retirement at Leisure World and an annual trip to the Bahamas. I think they deserve better.

  89. Miss Gayle July 5, 2010 at 7:49 pm #

    I would add a few points to your new party agenda.
    First, taxes on residential property and family owned (sole proprietor, not corporate) farms should be made illegal. It should not be possible for the government to take property that you or your forebears have bought and paid for in full away from you for any reason whatsoever. There are plenty of other options available for revenue – as numerous reform plans have pointed out. One thought would be to tax multi-car households with an annual tax of something like 25% of the value of the second car, 50% of the third car, 75% of the fourth car, and so forth. (Yes, there ARE households that between both parents and all the kids have even more cars, but you get the idea.)
    Two, you don’t go far enough on the military thing – every base everywhere abroad should be closed immediately and all soldiers brought home unless the country in which they are located agrees to pay the cost for the base and personnel IN FULL. It is NOT our job to provide free security to the rest of the world. The National Guard troops should all get to go home immediately. The regular army should be deployed at our borders. That’s their real job.
    Three, states DO need to reclaim their powers and authority from the Federal Government. We started out as a Union of what were, for all practical purposes, mini-nations and we need to return to that. Real democracies in each state could vote in the programs they want and discard the ones they don’t, and insist on legal residency for all benefits. If, for example, a state’s citizens want universal non-profit healthcare, great, they can vote it in. Those who don’t want it can move away. Those who want it but live elsewhere know where to move. Likewise, if a state decides on an all private school system, so be it. And so on and so forth. These political issues should be local, not dictated by the Feds. The Federal government needs to shrink down to its original functions and leave the rest to the States.
    I’m sure there are more but that’s all I can think of off the top of my head. The rest of your agenda sounds wonderful.

  90. shecky July 5, 2010 at 8:15 pm #

    Laura- You have singled out an issue near and dear to me. The Glen Canyon Damn is a boondoggle of the most odious order. Killing a miracle like Glen Canyon (the riparian paradise, not the obstruction) in order to make possible an atrocity like Las Vegas is a stunningly perverse arrangement of priorities.
    I love Ed Abbey’s solution, as found in The Monkey Wrench Gang. Blowing up the dam, he wrote, could create a wall of water that would flush Las Vegas off the map. Downstream dams would fall like dominoes, and the once-might Colorado would again run red, all the way to the Sea of Cortez. Eventually native species would recolonize the Canyon, and we would have a second chance to appreciate the perfection we started with.
    I have noted before that I live in Phoenix, a giggleopolis (“laughably huge city”) made possible by the damning and destruction of the Salt, Verde and Agua Fria rivers, tributaries of the Colorado. I have claimed this as home since 1964, when the population of the metro area was around 800,000. We now have over 4 million people here. If you blew up those dams and decommissioned the Palo Verde nuclear plant, the population here would drop to about 50,000. I would be one of them, and would vote ‘hell yeah” if the matter ever made the ballot.
    A while back Roosevelt Lake was found to harbor a breeding population of the endangered Southwestern Willow Flycatcher. This was new, the result of a drought lowering the level of the lake, creating new habitat for this bird (ironically, by allowing the overgrowth of the invasive tamarisk.) As the rains returned, it was mandated that lake levels be managed to maintain this new habitat. Sufficient water was captured to generate electricity and control floods, while the three lakes downstream provided ample catchment for the water needs of our thirsty community. The recreational fisherman, boaters and skiers were outraged, but for once priority was given to some consideration for the needs of the Mother of us all. A rare but encouraging example of recreational gratification displaced for the good of the irreplaceable.
    For the creation of the EPA I give a southbound salute to the shade of Richard Nixon, and ask that he be given a glass of Phoenix tap water once a millennium to ease his torment in the fiery pits he calls home.

  91. Cavepainter July 5, 2010 at 8:17 pm #

    Posts here seem to show that the political strategists directing the campaign for amnesty to illegal aliens have two very powerful psychological weapons for squelching opposition. The effectiveness of these two weapons is aimed at exploiting the fact of deep remorsefulness in the national psyche over historical failures to honor the very principles upon which this nation was founded.
    Americans are hyper sensitized to the label “racist”, no doubt due to public consciousness of those regrettable episodes when racism was openly declared as policy objective, governmental and otherwise. Consequently, Americans have been conditioned to reflexively shy back from opposing policy that is front loaded with claim of being anti-racist. Conversely, opposing arguments are stigmatized as inherently racist, rendering them much less likely to receive as full an examination as might be warranted.
    “Anti-immigrant” is another epithet from which Americans shy, conditioned as we are by the phrase “We are all immigrants”. Most Americans willingly acknowledge the fact that immigration restrictions of the past often were framed out of racist sentiment, and that many of us would not be here were we not of European extraction. Proponents for amnesty are exploiting that sensitivity hoping that the American public is conditioned to submit without full discussion of the broader ramifications of amnesty. That is why they frame opposition as anti-immigrant rather than as pro legal immigration.
    Many citizens seem to have internalized the nation’s racist past, bearing it as a personal guilt which they then project back upon the nation as a whole. Expiation of that guilt then becomes framing national policy as declaration of mea culpa, with legislation slanted primarily to purpose of restitution to any party wishing to identify itself among the harmed? Palliative this course might feel to some, but — of course — the past would remain immutable. Outcome though would be disastrous in terms of our government fulfilling its Constitutional obligation to act on behalf of current and future needs as willed by the citizenry through democratic process.
    Promoters of amnesty have self arrogated themselves to Inquisitor (as in Spanish Inquisition of the 16th Century), presuming to position themselves to decide for the nation what action will serve to expiate perceived racist past. Implicitly, the judgment is that our nation is no longer entitled to sovereignty. Hence, legislated immigration policies must default to however many foreign nationals choose to come here in disregard of hitherto legal policy.
    That is, citizens should relinquish sovereign privilege of directing national destiny, subordinating instead to unrestricted migration of populations from regions beyond its no longer enforced borders. Self-flagellation, anyone?
    Amnesty, fronted as anti-racist, has immunized it from consideration in broader context — budget crunch, national debt, over extended infrastructure, undercut middle-class wages, weakened organized labor movement, overpopulation, environmental collapse, global warming, high unemployment, job loss, mortgage defaults, health care disaster, education inadequacies, etc., etc.
    This forces the question: have polemics of the political left crystallized into a cant of political correctness, preconditioning it from critically analyzing propositions front-loaded as anti racist? “Left”, at time of its origination as reference to a factional stance in politics, was coincident with the frame “free thinker”. Today though, judging from its adopted memes, litany of catch phrases and talking points, the Left appears to have become as uniform in mind set as a monastic order.

  92. SNAFU July 5, 2010 at 8:41 pm #

    I agree with your assessment of the ills of Government intervention in all big business endeavors. When I was drafted (worst thing tricky Dick ever did was abolishing the draft) back in the mid 60’s the military fed it’s troops, maintained it’s equipment, etc. In late 60’s I witnessed the initial encroachment of corporate involvement into the maintenance of aircraft at military installations. Why?; because corporate America recognized the enormous pile of money that was lying on the table and they wanted it. One of the stories that made the rounds was that Boeing, Mac Air, GD, pick one, made the USAF an offer to provide free aircraft all the corporation wanted was a maintenance contract for the lifespan of the airframe.
    My contention is that the Government and it’s various minions have no burning desire to assist the corporations and/or businesses nor do they have any great desire regulate them. However; every psychopathic CEO/corporate head does as he/she wants to lock the golden goose into their barn and exclude all others from access. How to do this? “Government Regulations”. As for regulating corporations look at the working conditions and food safety at the turn of the 19th to the 20th centuries; do you think it is really that much different today? I don’t, just different folks in the trenches. I wait in amusement for the lack of boarder crossing pickers, slaughterers and meat packers to start impacting the availability of food in US groceries.
    In the past few years we have seen contaminated beef recalls in the hundreds of millions of pounds; how much of that beef actually gets recalled and what do they do with it if it is recalled?
    If most of the folks watching this SOAP really are concerned about Peak Oil and extending the slide why do I see no recommendations for lowering speed limits as did Jimmy, the peanut farmer, Carter. I know; today’s vehicles are no longer affected by those pesky square of the velocity drag increases from Newtonian physics and get better mileage at higher speed than at lower speed. 😉

  93. ozone July 5, 2010 at 9:48 pm #

    Great comment, SNAFU!
    My policy? Don’t trust ANYBODY with access to large piles of filthy lucre or power. Asshats do indeed abound.
    For those who might be a bit squeamish regarding human relations to come, just keep your focus on the magic (watch closely; nothing up my sleeve) of the “portfolio”. Those [diminishing] cold numerical abstractions will be a shining comfort as they sift rapidly through palsied fingers. Where’s the housekeeper gone, anyhow?

  94. shecky July 5, 2010 at 10:00 pm #

    Good point about the lowered speed limit. Easy to implement, effective in fuel savings, drastically reduced rate of fatalities in collisions.
    Regarding your last point, about modern vehicles performing better at high speed: on my occasional drive from Phoenix to LA, where people generally go about 80 mph, my 2006 Mitsubishi gets 24 mpg at 80. If I maintain a speed of 60 mph, i get 34 mpg. 24 ain’t bad, but 34 is better. If a return to 55 mph were effected, the savings nationally would be sufficient to allow us to stop offshore drilling, and maybe even import less.
    People I talk with are unwilling to lower the speed limit. They are willing to kill little brown people, as well as our troops, in order to drive at unsafe speeds while texting and watching porn on the in-dash TV. JHK is an optimist.

  95. asoka July 5, 2010 at 10:17 pm #

    Cash, you are sounding like a cultural supremacist.
    You say JHK is “sounding horrifyingly fascistic in his comments about not being incontinently multicultural and wanting to save something of the common culture.”
    Hello? What about the word “multicultural” do you not understand? Multi means the common culture would be preserved as one existing culture, in addition to the many newer cultures.
    Can’t you live and let live? If the Muslim culture in Canada wants to impose Sharia law on members of its culture, what harm is that doing you?
    Same with the Chinese, First Nation, etc. Does every culture have to adapt and do things the way they were done traditionally in the “common culture”?
    Actually, I guess the First Nation people should be the ones complaining that the English culture and French culture in Canada is deviating from the “common culture” that would be the culture that existed before the arrival of the English and French.

  96. Jimthedawg July 5, 2010 at 10:27 pm #

    Perhaps the greatest social experiment failure in this country, however well-intentioned, has been school busing. Along with the current failures you cite, school busing has destroyed our public education system, destroyed neighborhoods, caused less economically secure families to lose interest in their children’s education; and consumed enormous amounts of fuel while generating substantial amounts of pollution. As for the rail industry, it will never return as long as the government continues to subsidize highway construction in the pursuit of higher employment. In developed nations with effective rail transit, the government heavily subsidizes the endeavor, something that the Democrats and Republicans are unwilling to accept. They would rather subsidize the auto industry and, as we have seen, this is a dismal failure.

  97. asoka July 5, 2010 at 10:31 pm #

    “A lot of the US is going to become part of Latin America, like it or not, amigos mios.”
    Me gusta … cuanto antes mejor. ¡Viva La Raza!
    The take back of Southwest lands forcibly taken from Mexico is well underway.
    The USA was founded by immigrants from Europe, and built by African slaves and immigrants from China.
    Sucks when the white immigrants didn’t want to give blacks their freedom and sucks when white immigrants tried to throw the Chinese out and sucks that the white immigrants killed almost all the natives.
    I welcome all the immigrants!

  98. Vlad Krandz July 5, 2010 at 10:38 pm #

    Ah Edward Abbey, a name dear to all true Americans. His writings about Glenn Canyon are some of his best as far as I’ve read – they approach the level of scripture. He was one of the first to speak out against the Mexican Invasion. If only the Environmentalist Movement had listened to him instead of the forces of political correctness. Now that millions of Mexicans have left hundreds of millions of pounds of trash along the border, the Movement faces well deserved cynicism and contempt. As he fortold to his friends, everything you do is for naught unless the Mexicans can be stopped.

  99. progressorconserve July 5, 2010 at 10:41 pm #

    Don’t tell me you are backing off the accord we reached last week on illegal immigration.
    Are you just trying to stir things up?
    I wish this whole thread could cool it on the racial stuff for a while, as I suggested to Vlad a while ago.
    I’ve been working on an idea that the CFN threads are like the bar scene in Star Wars…you know, a place where alien cultures can mingle and try to understand one another. OK, I’ll admit it is an incomplete idea so far.

  100. cowswithguns July 5, 2010 at 10:49 pm #

    Right on. I’m reading Cadillac Desert right now, which I imagine you have. What a fucking waste the BuRec created by trying to populate every desert wasteland.
    I like booze and craps as much as anybody else — probably more so, but Las Vegas needs to be flooded into oblivion.
    What a shit sink. Hunter S. Thompson was right.

  101. asoka July 5, 2010 at 10:53 pm #

    “I can see the majority of Americans becoming increasingly angry at the way that their “Dream” is being stolen from them and they will turn to more extreme politics and actions in a pathetic fantasy of trying to get it back. ”
    This is not going to happen because the American people are too apathetic and too civilized to turn to “extreme actions”
    If anyone dares challenge the matrix, they will be harshly dealt with, labeled as “unpatriotic agitators” … and that will be that. Everyone else will settle back onto the couch to watch another episode of “Leave It To Beaver”.

  102. cowswithguns July 5, 2010 at 10:56 pm #

    Asoka, how could you after all we talked about? Just kidding…
    Though, I think the cancer known as the USA — that uses an un-paralleled amount of energy per capita — doesn’t need any more cancer cells whether they’re homegrown or the result of a Third World transfusion.

  103. asoka July 5, 2010 at 11:00 pm #

    “Peacefully is my intention. It may not happen that way, but we can hope.”
    Peacefully is the only way it can happen. We need to preserve what little infrastructure we have, not to destroy it through violent rampages.
    Nonviolence, permaculture, co-housing communities, localized solutions, etc. … these are the ways to build a new future. And it is a win-win situation. You create locally for yourself, your family, your friends, your community … whether or not the nation follows suit, you have take back your life from the hologram by following your principles and you have enjoyed building something positive that will benefit others. Win-win.

  104. Mike Moskos July 5, 2010 at 11:12 pm #

    Jim, I have to agree with Paul Kemp above: your post sounds a whole lot like what Ron Paul advocates: less government and more freedom.

  105. asoka July 5, 2010 at 11:16 pm #

    “Real Nations, like Japan and China, have lasted for millenia and may last many more – as long as they maintain the purity of their bloodlines”
    Like Heinz ketchup, China has 57 varieties of ethnic groups living in China numbering approximately 105 million people.
    Talk about “maintaining purity of bloodlines” is best limited to horse breeding.
    In humans it leads to genetic defects and poor general health.
    Or are you into incest, Vlad? That would be the best way to maintain the “purity of your bloodline”, would it not?
    Viva miscegenation!

  106. shecky July 5, 2010 at 11:19 pm #

    Have not read that. Thanks, just put it on hold at the library. I probably should not read it, though. i get all fired up and frustrated.
    Thank God for all the pretty golf courses to sooth my tired eyes with their rolling, synthetic green pastures. Thank Her also for the “lakes” that are part of every new subdivision here in the Sonoran Desert. Oh, and the pools in almost every yard, it seems. Fly into PHX sometime, during daylight, and revel in the sight of these, aquavescent and sterile.
    I eavesdropped on some ladies at lunch, once: “I live in this lovely community, where the landscaping is so lush, you would never know you were in the desert.” I wanted to ask, but did not, because I was nicer back then, “So why the fuck did you move here?”

  107. asoka July 5, 2010 at 11:21 pm #

    “The new immigrants are coming from Mexico and Central America. They do pay into Social Security.”
    Yes, they pay in, but they frequently never, ever get to receive social security benefits because they do not have proper documents.
    So the immigrants are subsidizing those who are now retiring and drawing social security. Once again, the immigrants are screwed, as in much of the history of this country.
    Legalize them, now!

  108. cowswithguns July 5, 2010 at 11:29 pm #

    Oh, I’ve flown into Phoenix a few times. I find flying into Vegas is the only thing more depressing — no offense. LA sucks too, but at least the ocean is there.
    Botton line: If you need air-conditioning, a gallon of bottled water a day, a well-watered golf course, and a big mall to make it in Phoenix, get out.
    It sounds like you don’t need all of that. Good luck to you and the futre 50,000.

  109. progressorconserve July 5, 2010 at 11:39 pm #

    I was in college round about 1974 when the 55 mph speed limit was implemented. It was a beautiful response to a national emergency at first. No one, not a single soul, even the cops running nonemergency would go over 56.
    But it didn’t last.
    By the time the 55 speed limit ended it was causing widespread disrespect of traffic laws in general.
    Sort of like prohibition.
    Or marijuana laws.
    I think more expensive gas is a more “American” solution…free market and all that.
    Did you see my slogan for JHK’s tea party upthread?
    “Tax gas today so America can move in the future”

  110. asoka July 5, 2010 at 11:39 pm #

    “The problem with government-sponsored mega-plans that are to be applied to the whole population is that they are so large and sweeping, and acquire so much inertia, that once we realize they are taking us in the wrong direction, they are impossible to stop or reverse until the full damage has been done.”
    Laura, do you by any chance use the federal interstate highway system? Do you perhaps purchase produce or goods transported by the federal interstate highway system?
    That system was a “government-sponsored mega-plans that are to be applied to the whole population” that is “large and sweeping” and has provided the nation with positive economic benefit. Though it may be heresy to say this on CFN, the interstate highway system has resulted in greater overall economic growth than had it not been constructed.
    The next time you hear the words “I’m from the government and I’m here to help” it may pay to listen. Each person must decide how much they have used and/or benefited from the interstate system, and whether or not the resulting economic growth was desirable.
    But the fact is the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT CAME TO HELP … and despite what Reagan said, government did help promote transportation.

  111. asoka July 5, 2010 at 11:44 pm #

    “There really is much to enjoy in tending a garden, teaching a kid to fix a bike, or sitting quietly and going within. A less cluttered life would benefit most people”
    Amen! Especially sitting quietly and going within. I do this regularly with local groups (Hindus, Buddhists, Quakers, etc.) and enjoy it immensely.

  112. lpat July 5, 2010 at 11:49 pm #

    This is a much more interesting argument. Yes. The scale of modern governments, with their mass populations, allows them to create far more havoc than older, smaller forms of governments. Look at what they’ve done with conscripted armies. The trouble with libertarian arguments, however, is that their focus is always on the ills of government, never the ills of business.
    Libertarians’ dreams aside, government and business have never been separated, and they really can’t be. They’re like conjoined twins. Governments are established, according to American creed, to work for the common good. Business–when it’s not too absorbed robbing the people blind–provides the food, goods and shelter that people need. Government can’t ignore business. Its property laws and the domestic tranquility it establishes make business possible. Business collapsed during the Dark Ages because government and its protections collapsed.
    Back to the issue of scale. Government has grown enormously during the modern age. So has business. The ability of both to do harm and to do good has grown exponentially. Turning business loose to run without regulation is not the solution to the problems of the modern world. Limiting government may, indeed, be part of the solution; limiting its ability to control and limit the damage done by an equally destructive business world is not. Take the brakes off business and it is going to behave more and more like the government libertarians claim to disdain. Take the brakes off and it is going to capture more and more of the government and bend it to its own ends as BP has done in the Gulf.
    Make the argument that government has no business being the handmaiden of business, and I’m there with you. Argue that business can be trusted to its own devices? That’s naive.

  113. asoka July 5, 2010 at 11:53 pm #

    “This forces the question: have polemics of the political left crystallized into a cant of political correctness”
    Do you want to be politically incorrect?
    Do you deny racism exists and should be called racist when it rears its ugly head?

  114. Cavepainter July 5, 2010 at 11:56 pm #

    Ah yes, added to charge of racism against any opposition to amnesty for illegal aliens is now onus of child abuse. Accordingly, denying amnesty would result in deportation of children of illegal aliens, amounting to punishing the innocent.
    There’s a ring of funny/fishy to that argument at the outset: The very introduction of the word innocent automatically references the unnamed guilty – which, we all know, are those who knowingly and deliberately violated our immigration laws. But, I digress.
    If the US citizenry accept this contention by the pro amnesty faction, then subsequently accept amnesty to avoid the imputed guilt, sidestepped all-together is the Constitutional debate about whether or not entitlement of citizenship is owed to children born to illegal aliens. Neat, huh?
    OK, if proponents for amnesty want to dodge (for now) the citizenship entitlement debate, that’s fine with me. That allows to be singled out the issue of whether or not opposing amnesty really does amount to child abuse — punishing the innocent.
    Before our nation pleads mea culpa, I urge pivoting the argument 180 degrees: Doesn’t it seem just as arguable that children of illegal aliens in our country have already garnered benefit of inordinate US generosity? Consider; having had the privilege of a life start in our first world nation haven’t they accrued advantage beyond estimate over children in the countries of their parents’ origin? Seems to me, by this accounting, our national generosity should be celebrated rather than impugned,
    Carrying my counter argument further: As a generous nation doesn’t it behoove us to disperse the children of illegal aliens back to those nations of parental origin, so that the advantages they’ve acquired while here can be shared and realized in those otherwise disadvantaged countries as added national treasure? After all, proponents for amnesty are quick to claim that these children — as well as their illegal immigrant parents — enrich our nation immeasurably. There again, isn’t it unfair of us, a richer nation already, to be robbing poorer nations by not sending back what should be regarded as theirs,….by legal entitlement?

  115. Vlad Krandz July 6, 2010 at 12:01 am #

    You changed your mind again I see. Nothing like having rock solid principles. You bend with every little breeze – like a butterfly. You give in to every little whim – like a little child who has to pee. America be damned, Asoka wants what Asoka wants. His whim is Law.

  116. asoka July 6, 2010 at 12:02 am #

    “Now that millions of Mexicans have left hundreds of millions of pounds of trash along the border, the Movement faces well deserved cynicism and contempt.”
    Before Ladybird Johnson’s beautify America campaigns “Don’t Litter” it was millions of white Americans leaving trash, and they deserved contempt.
    But with a persistent public education campaign the problem has lessened. It is not the color of a person’s skin that is the problem, Vlad. It is the lack of civic consciousness. And that can be changed.

  117. asoka July 6, 2010 at 12:09 am #

    “Asoka, how could you after all we talked about?”
    I guess it is just my Christian upbringing. When a new illegal immigrant moves in as my neighbor I must welcome him or her to America, because that is what Jesus would do.
    We commonly think of neighbors as the people who live near us, but Jesus meant it to include all mankind — even our enemies! Jesus told His famous parable of the Good Samaritan to make it clear that “love your neighbor” means to love all persons, everywhere – not just our friends, allies, countrymen, etc.
    It would not being loving to say to my new neighbor: “Go back to Mexico!” I just could never do that. I prefer to treat people as human beings and have never asked for their papers to determine who is deserving of respect.

  118. asoka July 6, 2010 at 12:15 am #

    “Did you see my slogan for JHK’s tea party upthread?
    “Tax gas today so America can move in the future””
    Try to get it down to six words or less to make it truly readable on a bumper sticker, even by people going over 55 mph.
    Are you a Christian, progressorconserve?

  119. Laura Louzader July 6, 2010 at 12:16 am #

    Asoka, unfortunately I am FORCED to use stuff transported by the interstates, since we murdered our railroads to build them.
    If there is any argument that simply does not wash, it’s that there would have been less “growth” without the interstates.
    There SHOULD have been less “growth” of the type we have had since WW2. The whole point of our discussions here is that the growth we have experienced since WW2 is unsustainable and has wasted our resources and left us utterly dependent upon systems that will surely fail catastrophically as we head down the slope of resource depletion. If ever there was a Zero Sum Game, the “growth” of our suburbs and car dependence is it. Every bit of this cancerous “growth” came at the expense of much more sustainable and workable forms of habitation and transportation.
    We are learning that economic growth as it is defined by our economist, comes a price we cannot afford.
    And we always knew it, yet for 50 years we have been steadfastly trotting around the course with blinders on, while our cities and towns have been destroyed by auto-dependent sprawl, and we are locked into patterns of habitation and consumption that we will not be able to continue… which is what Kunstler and others have been trying to get across to us.
    We could have kept our economy sustainable, with slower, steadier growth along more sustainable lines, by declining to do what we should have known better to do by 1957, when not only M. King Hubbert but Adm. Hyman Rickover warned that if growth in the use of fossil fuels continued on the path it was on, that we would come to exactly the pass we have now.
    Would it be that we had never built these systems, never destroyed our railroads, never as much as drove our middle income population out of our beautiful, livable cities and towns to places where they are about to be trapped with no way to get to work, no local jobs, and no way to procure the other necessities of life. I was of the last generation that saw my old city, St. Louis, livable and safe, and got to live the neighborhood life as it was lived in the 40s and even the 50s, before the interstates eviscerated the city and emptied the population into the suburbs, leaving the city to whoever couldn’t afford to buy the nice little cookie-cutter split-level with the VA or FHA loan, and a car to go with it.
    Now, thanks to the “growth” of the past 60 years, we are stuck with pharaonic infrastructure we will soon no longer be able to maintain, and it will produce disasters of unbelievable scale as it crumbles. We already cannot afford to either decommission or replace one of the most dangerous hydro dams in the country, even though it nearly failed in 1983. We cannot afford to maintain the 5.7 million mile interstate system, large parts of which, mainly bridges, are dangerously aged.
    Worse, we have spent decades ahead of ourselves to build this crap and all the suburbia it makes possible, thus depriving ourselves of the capital we will need to build the industries that will make our civilization run going forward, like decent rapid (NOT high-speed, don’t confuse the terms) rail, or the renovation of the power grid.
    Had our government kept its hands off, the “growth” would be slower, but much more sustainable and organic. Investment would be made in response to perceived need and in smaller increments, and mistakes easier to reverse, the losses far smaller and easier to offset, thanks to the natural constraints built into the “market”, which is nothing more than the total of all the individual decisions being made in response to individual needs and situations, in keeping with the means to implement them.

  120. asoka July 6, 2010 at 12:23 am #

    Vlad said: “You changed your mind again I see. Nothing like having rock solid principles. You bend with every little breeze…”
    Vlad, you need to brush up on Lao Tzu.
    Here are a couple of pertinent quotes:
    What is malleable is always superior to that which is immovable. This is the principle of controlling things by going along with them, of mastery through adaptation.
    Water is fluid, soft, and yielding. But water will wear away rock, which is rigid and cannot yield. As a rule, whatever is fluid, soft, and yielding will overcome whatever is rigid and hard. This is another paradox: what is soft is strong. (Lao Tzu)

  121. budizwiser July 6, 2010 at 12:30 am #

    The failures will grow more frequent and drastic in our large, unsustainable systems as we go down the slope..

    Laura, no simpler example of the “false competition” created by government exists than the recent expansion of the levee systems along the Mississippi.
    As each river levee is created or heightened, another land mass is threatened and left less secure. Have you noticed how high the river has been running this year?
    A point worth noting, as each industry successfully lobbies the government for “special market adjustments” – that industry becomes more successful at additional lobbying creating the incredible feedback loops we experience to this day.
    Look no further than the financial sector to see the final perversion of a process that our founding fathers intended to assure a government responsive to all its peoples needs.
    Thanks for your posts, your ability to write so concisely without vulgarity or silly metaphors is refreshing.

  122. Laura Louzader July 6, 2010 at 12:37 am #

    shecky, I’m so afraid, from everything I’ve read, that the disaster you project will happen the next time the Colorado floods and Lake Powell reaches full pool.The Glen Canyon dam was way under-engineered, using the old diversion tunnels as spillways that really should have been built into the dam itself. Worse, the dam is abutted by sandstone,sedimentary rock that erodes easily, while the fabulous Hoover, downstream, is abutted by granite, which does not. The Glen Canyon abutments continue to erode, and the dam has had to be continually “shit-rigged” in order to support it. The only thing saving the situation is the ongoing drought, really. This dam was only built to withstand a 25 year flood.
    But I do NOT want to see this dam collapse, because there are about 20 million people at least living downriver from this disaster, this axe hanging over the Colorado watershed. Were the Glen Canyon to fail, the resulting domino collapse of the smaller dams downriver could easily kill 10,000 people and that is likely a conservative estimate.
    I don’t take their lives lightly.
    A wall of water 500′ high would travel down the Colorado, and it would be 250′ high when it reached Lake Mead. It would certainly overtop the Hoover, though it may not, or may, cause that structure to fail. If the Hoover were also to fail, another 500′ wall of water would surely kick down the 7 smaller dams downriver, including the Parker, the Morales, the Imperial, and a couple of others.
    The loss of human life would be unspeakable.
    Therefore, it absolutely appalls me that the Bureau of Reclamation, after reviewing the facts and engineers reports, chose not to decommission this dam and divert the water in the Lake Powell reservoir to underground aquafiers and to Lake Mead. The reason is money- this project would take nearly ten years and cost hundreds of millions of dollars. But that is nothing beside what a collapse will cost, especially when you consider the human death toll, which cannot be measured in dollars.
    This is the worst aspect of the financial and resource situation we are in- we are becoming very callous. ‘Tis said that where food is dear, life is cheap, and our lives have become extremely cheap to the people making life-and-death decisions. And as resources become tighter, human life, especially the lives of our citizens who lack wealth and influence, will become cheaper and cheaper.

  123. progressorconserve July 6, 2010 at 12:48 am #

    A nominal Christian, born, bred, and Baptized by immersion. Right now I occasionally go to the Unitarian Church in our little town. Great people come there on Sundays from all over North Georgia. In prosperous times it is easy to embrace all faiths.
    But let me tell you, that if TS ever does HTF up here I’m going to be going to the little Baptist Church near the house. The deacons will welcome by “Transfer of Letter” from the church where I was baptized over 40 years ago. I’ll bring in the whole extended family to find Jesus and we’ll have a new group of loving, trustworthy people who know these Mountains.
    There are no Atheists in fox holes.
    Now, speaking of TSHTF, are you really reneging on the commitment to the idea of closing the border to illegal immigration that you, Cows, and I “forged” on Sunday night?
    Now I’ve gotta admit that I may be using you as a proxy for all the extreme “open border” liberals. But I thought there was hope for the planet if the US could get consensus on at least that one issue.
    So that puts you and Vlad at each other’s throats again here on CFN. My bright shining idea of taking the website VIRAL and electing JHK for president ends because people log on and say….that’s not really a PO website, it’s like a white survivalist argument site.
    So we are well and truly doomed. Our already excessive use of the planet, multiplied by millions more unchecked, rapidly reproducing “Americans”
    We’re done for. My pessimist side is showing. White/black/brown human genes in my mind are superior to cockroach genes….but those are the genes that will rule the planet if we finish screwing it up.
    Give an unchecked US population a continuing run at the Earth’s resources.
    God Almighty! This may not end well.
    Night y’all!
    Life is Good; I’m a little po’ed.
    Or maybe you were just trying to “rattle our cages” for a good argument and you DO think secure borders are a good idea…….It’s …………not………too……l….a….t…..

  124. cowswithguns July 6, 2010 at 12:50 am #

    Hey, I’m with you. I’m not talkin’ individually, I’m talking about the big picture.
    I may not be into open borders, but I’m not ready to walk up to some hard-working illegal family and be like: “This is my country! Get the hell out before I shoot yer kids!”
    The way I see it, to reduce illegal immigration we need to bust employers using illegals and we need to change our consumeristic build-strip-malls-like-there’s-no-tomorrow culture that demands a cheap, easily exploited workforce. And, of course, do what we can to make Mexico a healthier place to live. First step, you ask? Legalize weed!
    In short, change the unhealthy macro-picture and the illegal immigration problem will be solved.
    For those who say “build a wall” or “let’s create a police state,” I say this: “Are you fucking kidding me!?”

  125. cowswithguns July 6, 2010 at 12:56 am #

    That is so along the lines of Cadillac Desert, which I’m reading now. If it weren’t for the BuRec projects, the unsustainable Western cities like LA, Vegas, Phoenix, Salt Lake and Denver never would come to be.
    Talk about government driving bad developments.
    If you haven’t read Cadillac Desert, check it out. It’s an amazing piece of literary journalism.

  126. Qshtik July 6, 2010 at 1:06 am #

    I welcome all the immigrants!
    Let’s see .. 2 days, 5 hours and 5 mins. That’s how long Asoka’s almost-change-of-heart on the open borders issue lasted. And there are 3 naive dupes who swallowed his bullshit hook, line and sinker.
    When I read the “conversion” post 2 days ago where A-hole flatters a couple of his sycophantic lapdogs I recall thinking “this is sooo lame.” This has enough wiggle room in it to taxi a DreamLiner through.
    And who could seriously believe he would all-of-a-sudden abandon his southern border brown buddies?
    To be honest, I didn’t believe for a minute that Dio, Cows, and the other guy (the one is dying for me to attack him by name so he’ll have validation that he’s playing with the adults; and so he can print it out and show it to his wife and say “look what this guy Qshtik said about me” – that guy) could be so incredibly gullible.
    I can not deny it – Asoka has a gift and a talent for sprinkling around flattering pixie dust and sucking in the weak of mind.

  127. asoka July 6, 2010 at 1:24 am #

    Laura, thank you for your thoughtful response.
    You state: “the “market”, which is nothing more than the total of all the individual decisions being made in response to individual needs”
    This presumes that an individual can distinguish between wants and needs. People have unlimited wants, but resources are scarce (whether they be land, labor, capital, or entrepreneurial abilities)
    It sounds as if you believe in rational choice theory and believe choices are freely made by individuals, and those decisions you call “the market”. Do you believe people will make choices in their own best interests? You may be neglecting the irrational nature of choices and the determination of individual tastes by social institutions like advertising.
    You have much more faith in “the market” and its rationality than I do. And you seem to acknowledge the role of lobbyists and politicians in decisions affecting “the market”.
    When you leave things to “the market” you get special-interest lobbyists after government favors worth millions or billions for relatively small investments. They face a risk of losing out to their competitors if they don’t seek these favors. It is not a “free market”, it is a bounded and corrupt market.

  128. asoka July 6, 2010 at 1:32 am #

    Qshtik said: “I can not deny it – Asoka has a gift and a talent for sprinkling around flattering pixie dust and sucking in the weak of mind.”
    Thank you, Qshtik.
    I appreciate how you read, are sucked in, and respond to my posts. **pixie dust**

  129. eightm July 6, 2010 at 4:03 am #

    I am absolutely astonished, bewildered, in complete disbelief at how many posters and JHK himself are completely and totally clueless about MASS TRANSIT:
    1) In order to use railroads you need the “last mile” connection, the connection that runs from your suburban home or inner city home to train station of departure A, and then from train station of arrival B, to your suburban or inner city office park. Having railroads with no extensive and compete BUS system is like having a pool with no water.
    2) While railroad transit cannot operate at all without the complementing BUS transit, BUS transit can operate perfectly without railroads.
    3) The huge massive infrastructure for BUS transit is already in place and has been built and in development for over fifty years and represents a multi-decade trillion dollar investment already financed and finished. No other nation on earth comes even close to the amount of roads and highways the USA has, it is one of the most massive resources of the USA and one of its most important overall asset: IT IS A LARGE CHUNK OF THE WEALTH OF AMERICA.
    (just compare it to the goat trails of Northern Italy, and most of the rest of the world including the west and JAPAN someone talked about above).
    4) The cost of creating a very efficient and complete BUS transit system, that can be run by any combination of local, state, federal or private actors, in any of hundreds of possible ways, by using internet calling systems, by using many different kinds of BUSES, high class, luxury etc. is so small, is absolutely tiny compared to the 2 trillion dollars the USA health care system costs, compared to the 500 billion dollars the USA defense costs, compared to the one trillion dollars the bank bailouts costs, etc. In fact with only 10 billion dollars you could supply the USA suburbs with about 10,000 BUSES, that would be 100 new BUS routes in the 100 most important metropolitan areas.
    The cost is peanuts, the technology is very well known, the infrastructure is there, then why doesn’t anyone ever mention or think about this so simple solution to the energy – oil problem ? Because they have been brainwashed to think BUSES “are bad”, the neural circuits of 300 million americans have been hardwired in such a way so that even the simple concept, the simple idea of BUS transit gets erased into oblivion in their minds.
    The solution has been staring in the face of America for 50 years, no one seems to see it. I can’t believe it.
    Anyways, all of JHK’s railroad fantasies, and all of the fantasies everyone else has about railroads is just like “magic thinking”, and “wishing on a star”: it will never happen without a huge and efficient BUS transit system.
    Unless you live and work exactly in the departure and arrival stations…

  130. octel July 6, 2010 at 4:05 am #

    I liked your books because you critiqued crappy architecture, but I’m really sad to now find out that you’re a reactionary racist asshole.
    Your coded language is lamentable and transparent. It’s clear that “multi-culturalism” to you means “the dirty brown horde”

  131. ilene July 6, 2010 at 5:22 am #

    This article on the Tea Parties and who’s actually behind promoting them is very interesting, might explain some of the inconsistencies you noted:
    Why are the hoppin’-mad Teabaggers so oddly quiet these days, ever since the BP oil disaster? That’s what Thomas Frank, author of What’s The Matter With Kansas? asked last week in his column, “Laissez-faire Meets The Oil Spill.” Ideologically, it’s painfully obvious why the Teabaggers are now the Teagaggers: their free-market gospel got mugged by oil-drenched reality — a reality so horrific that even pollster Frank Luntz couldn’t spin the BP disaster as the government’s fault. Best to just shut up when you’re that wrong.
    But there’s another, more concrete reason why the Tea Party revolutionaries melted back into their suburbs as soon as the enormity of the Gulf spill disaster hit: The Tea Party evolved out of the pro-offshore drilling astroturf movement in 2008. They even share some of the same organizers and front groups, from PR operative like Eric Odom, to advocacy groups like FreedomWorks, whose combined efforts on the “Drill Here! Drill now!” astroturf campaign succeeded in opening up all of America’s coastlines and waters to offshore drilling, overturning a 27-year ban thanks to threats of “a Boston-style Tea Party,” as one Republican put it in the summer of 2008…

  132. eightm July 6, 2010 at 5:56 am #

    I am absolutely astonished, bewildered, in complete disbelief at how many posters and JHK himself are completely and totally clueless about MASS TRANSIT:
    1) In order to use railroads you need the “last mile” connection, the connection that runs from your suburban home or inner city home to train station of departure A, and then from train station of arrival B, to your suburban or inner city office park. Having railroads with no extensive and complete BUS system is like having a pool with no water.
    2) While railroad transit cannot operate at all without the complementing BUS transit, BUS transit can operate perfectly without railroads.
    3) The huge massive infrastructure for BUS transit is already in place and has been built and in development for over fifty years and represents a multi-decade trillion dollar investment already financed and finished. No other nation on earth comes even close to the amount of roads and highways the USA has, it is one of the most massive resources of the USA and one of its most important overall assets: IT IS A LARGE CHUNK OF THE WEALTH OF AMERICA.
    (just compare it to the goat trails of Northern Italy, and most of the rest of the world including the west and JAPAN someone talked about above).
    4) The cost of creating a very efficient and complete BUS transit system, that can be run by any combination of local, state, federal or private actors, in any of hundreds of possible ways, by using internet calling systems, by using many different kinds of BUSES, high class, luxury etc. is so small, is absolutely tiny compared to the 2 trillion dollars the USA health care system costs, compared to the 500 billion dollars the USA defense costs, compared to the one trillion dollars the bank bailouts costs, etc. In fact with only 10 billion dollars you could supply the USA suburbs with about 10,000 BUSES, that would be 100 new BUS routes in the 100 most important metropolitan areas.
    The cost is peanuts, the technology is very well known, the infrastructure is there, then why doesn’t anyone ever mention or think about this so simple solution to the energy – oil problem ? Because they have been brainwashed to think BUSES “are bad”, the neural circuits of 300 million americans have been hardwired in such a way so that even the simple concept, the simple idea of BUS transit gets erased into oblivion in their minds.
    The solution has been staring in the face of America for 50 years, no one seems to see it. I can’t believe it.
    Anyways, all of JHK’s railroad fantasies, and all of the fantasies everyone else has about railroads is just like “magical thinking”, and “wishing on a star”: it will never happen without a huge and efficient BUS transit system.
    Unless you live and work exactly in the departure and arrival stations…

  133. Jim from Watkins Glen July 6, 2010 at 8:05 am #

    This inspiring post makes me wish Mr. Kunstler had gone into public service until it dawns on me that Washington D.C. is a bone yard of good ideas. Instead I’m inspired to beat people like the fundamentalist Ralph Reed at their own game. Reed said he’d rather have a thousand school board members than one president. Our best chance at turning the ship is to show up every day and engage people in a rational discourse about controlled contraction.

  134. Laura Louzader July 6, 2010 at 8:18 am #

    Asoka, you do not understand the term “free market”.
    You state that “When you leave things to “the market” you get special-interest lobbyists after government favors worth millions or billions for relatively small investments. They face a risk of losing out to their competitors if they don’t seek these favors. It is not a “free market”, it is a bounded and corrupt market.”
    What you are describing, Asoka, is not a Free Market, which we have never really had in this country except in a few places and a few industries for a little while, but the Crony Capitalist Fascist Welfare State, which is what we’ve had for the past 100 years or even longer, and which is what we will always have as long as we deputize our government to interfere with the economy and make decisions concerning what industries will succeed and what will fail.
    Do you realize that you are talking here about government interference? If it were not for the heavy hand of the government, it would not be possible for our leaders to acquiesce to lobbyists and dispense “government favors worth millions or billions”. This is my point EXACTLY, Asoka. Our governments, from the federal level on down to the municipal level, has too much power to decide who will live and who will die, what industries will succeed, and which will die.
    You live in Uptown Chicago, do you not? Do you think that the citizens in the Maryville TIF area will benefit from the construction of two 50 story condo towers with 850 lucury condos, in one of the most glutted condo markets in the country? Sedgewick is building that overscaled and utterly redundant monstrosity with your tax money and mine, too, inasmuch that the tax “increment” is being diverted from Chicago’s strained budget, to guarantee that Sedgwick will put $60M in its coffers no matter whether the development succeeds or not. Sedgwick could NEVER have gotten the financing for this boondoggle were it not for government interference in the markets. It should not have been possible for our city council to award the tax increment from the neighbor’s property taxes, for the next 23 years, to a crony developer for a laughably redundant condo development, for the sake of something called “economic development”, just as it should not have been possible for the highway department and DOT and BuREc and other government agencies to seize millions of homes and business from their rightful owners via Eminent Domain proceedings to build highways, hydro dams, and other overscaled infrastructure that was not needed and that drove development along unsustainable paths
    In a Free Market, there would BE no BuREc to build 700′ dams, no HUD to finance 60-story “market” rate apartment buildings for which there is no market, no DOT to order railroads and airlines to run service to towns with 200 people in it for the taxpayers to subsidize, or build highways through areas with populations of 6 households per mile to create opportunities for suburban sprawl builders, nor FHA or FNMA and GNMA and FMAC to buy bad loans by the millions that otherwise would not be written because there would be no market for them.
    And you would have no wars fought to secure for our corporations the freedom to do business in slave-labor havens. What do you think the Vietnam War was all about?
    In a truly free market, the government has NO ROLE in fostering or steering economic development. In a free market, lobbyists cannot find work, because the government simply does not have the power to do their bidding no matter how much they pay.
    In demanding that our government steer economic development to spur “growth” along lines it would never take in a truly free market where you pay for what you get and get only what you pay for, we’ve created the Crony Capitalist Corporate Welfare Fascist State.
    In a truly Free Market, your business are subject only to the same laws everyone is, which are laws that outlaw criminal depredation. The government exists to protect all citizens against FORCE and FRAUD, something it has done a very poor job of and which it violates when it seizes our taxes and property for whatever reason, conscripts our men into the military, and takes our taxes to finance benefits for its Crony Capitalists.
    In a truly free market, we most likely would not have had the hyper-growth of the past 60 years, but we now know we’d been better off without it. We might instead have had a more sustainable economy and a population that could pay its way.

  135. eightm July 6, 2010 at 8:38 am #

    And while I’m at it I would like to comment on OBAMA: OBAMA IS STUPID.
    He is insisting that the rest of the world, in particular China and Germany “start consuming” like America. But what he doesn’t realize is that the level and style of consumption present in America, is uniquely american, cannot be imposed or exported in any way to other countries.
    1) The USA has mostly wood homes, easily manipulable, hence much consumption and activity is done on “home improvements”: there is no “Home Depot” or similar in Germany or other countries, their homes are concrete, much smaller, harder to modify and manipulate, much higher costs, much lower consumption in general. Fewer stores, fewer malls, etc.
    2) The homes in the USA are large, suburb homes with an attic, 2 car garage, with a basement, plenty of room to store all the China made crap people buy at WalMart. No place in the world has anything even remotely similar.
    3) The cost of gasoline in Europe and JAPAN is 10 dollars a gallon, often even more.
    4) The salaries in EU and JAPAN are between 600 dollars a month to at most 3,000 dollars a month, often not many make much more than that. The average about 1,200 to 1,700 dollars a month, if even. There is not much “consumption” that can be done with that. The USA salaries go from 800 dollars a month to 20,000 dollars a month, many making over 5,000 dollars a month (all the health care and defense creeps).
    5) China isn’t even in the equation on this, since they are from 100 to 500 dollars a month, and then since JAPAN and Germany, the two closest countries to the USA standard of living haven’t been able to even compare to the USA after 50 years of “growth”, how on earth will China even start ?
    So OBAMA and his consultants are stupid, do not understand the world, like most posters here and JHK too. The USA must continue to buy as much crap as possible from the world, they must fill their homes to the brim with items, buy, baby buy, forever, there is no other solution, or else the worldwide economy cannot “grow”.

  136. maineiac July 6, 2010 at 9:39 am #

    Sign me up, Jim!
    Please ignore those who call you a racist because you happen to believe in the law and the fact that the Inn is overbooked. They clearly don’t understand the gravity of our situation.

  137. trav777 July 6, 2010 at 9:47 am #

    Jim, you’re full of shit.
    The Tea Parties started with people like you, most of them libertarian, most opposed to the wars and the police state.
    Soon as you get a rally together, CNN and MSNBC will be right there to demonize YOU as a lunatic and the other JHKs on the web will be calling you a corn-pone nazi because you must hate the black President. Use your brain.

  138. Pepper Spray July 6, 2010 at 10:15 am #

    My wife is a foreigner; however, she entered this country legally with all the bureaucracy, paperwork and fees that go with that. As a result she has less access to medical or social services than if she entered this country illegally.
    The message: Laws are for suckers and America is full of them. Come all you would-be criminals and law breaking foreigners, we have a nation of Rubes for you to take advantage of.
    In the mean time, I carry one of these incase some crook, foreign or domestic, thinks I am just another ‘ American Sucker’ ripe for the harvest.

  139. Cash July 6, 2010 at 10:29 am #

    Hello Asoka,
    I think I understand multiculturalism. The politically correct crowd would consider me an “ethnic” ie not a “real” Canadian because I’m not of old English/French stock. Here I would need a community spokesman er excuse me spokesperson to talk on my behalf because as a quaint little ethnic with an odd surname I can’t speak and think for myself.
    There are many things about multiculturalism that I consider harmful, some of which I consider beneficial. On balance I think the harmful aspects far outweight the beneficial.
    Here’s the main thing that I consider beneficial: I think that excessive “group think” inevitably leads you over a cliff. You need naysayers and perspectives from outside the cultural box to bring back balance, scale back excess.
    Let’s take one example: pornography. IMO our societies have gone way, way overboard. I’ve read that a great many women are being horrifically mistreated as well as kids. This is one area where unbridled “anything goes” in the name of freedom of expression is unjustified.
    Like I said in a previous post, I’ve gotten to know and be friends with Muslims over the years. I know their perspective on this issue. As the demographic weight of Muslims in our society grows they’ll bring this perspective to bear ie there will be severe disapproval from the growing Muslim voice. This has to help.
    Here’s one example where I KNOW multiculturalism is harmful. It can and often does lead to defacto apartheid. Culture does not exist in a box by itself. It comes with tribal loyalties, resentments, hostilities. It comes built in with an “us versus them” attitide. Do you want a common citizenship where all people are treated equally? This does not exist in a culturally/ethnically divided society. In such a place tribal loyalties are the rule.
    How do I know this? I saw it first hand. My parents, relatives and other Italian immigrants were disdainful of the “Inglese”. I have relatives that settled in big cities. There they lived in Little Italys where you don’t need to speak English. This was a case of self segregation. As a consequence the original immigrants never learned English and are helpless in the wider Anglo society. IMO this self segregtion among Italians was so strong that it impeded their social and economic progress. It seems to me that what other immigrant groups accompished in one or two generations took Italians about four.
    But where I grew up there were no enclaves for “cultural minorities” to hide. You get with the program.
    But if you do get with the program there is no more nurturing place than a small town. It takes time but as time passes there is acceptance on both sides. I can move in wider Anglo society.
    I’ve read that there are sections of London where a woman cannot go without cover without being called an infidel whore and where even non Muslim women residents wear cover to avoid insults. Not acceptable. You cannot have “no-go” zones for non Muslims just like you can’t have no-go zones for Muslims.
    If a Muslim is convicted of adultery does it harm me that they are stoned to death in accordance with Sharia law? I’m not the one being stoned. Would it be OK with you? In our society there is supposed to be one rule of law that applies to everyone. Formerly, as you well know, there was one rule for whites and one for blacks. Was that OK by you?
    Honour killings are culturally acceptable in large parts of the world. Are they OK by you? Do you want to stroll past an empty lot where a Muslim girl is being stoned to death for being seen with a boy? A man and his son were just sentenced to life in prison here for an honour killing. They strangled the man’s daughter. Her crime? Wanting to be like the other kids.
    Live and let live? Let’s not be naive.

  140. Funzel July 6, 2010 at 10:36 am #

    Multiculturalism,indeed a pipe dream.
    How many species of ants are there?Why are they not integrating,after all they are all ants?

  141. SeaYoung July 6, 2010 at 10:40 am #

    Mr. Kunstler, you nailed it. Swimming in the vast sea of thoughts and confusion over peak oil, corrupted governance, and suburbia with all the trimmings, this entry clearly defines a path to the future. Your tea party platform highlights the simplicity of living more simply.
    You have established yourself as my personal anti-politician. Follow the definition I use frequently: Salesmen explain the “difficult” in terms most of us can understand. A politician is polar opposite. They take the “simple”, make it sound “difficult” and convince most of us that only a politician/lawyer can understand the “problem”. Pres O was a good salesman in candidate mode. Made it sound simple. Too bad politician mode has induced CFN-itis.
    Your tea-party definitely needs the South. Like us or not. May I suggest a name to reflect cross region support: The Yankee-Dixie Party. Maybe not…sounds a little too Asian. Dixie-Yankee is about as bad. How about The Bubba Bing, Bubba Boo Party? Nope, to much Jersey influence.
    I got it! Quick, sums up recent government CFs, and to the point: The Katrina-Horizon Party.

  142. progressorconserve July 6, 2010 at 10:47 am #

    vlad, asoka, qshtik, and all of CFN.
    To express my frustration with the level of discourse on this thread this week I have written a one-act play. With permission of JHK enterprises, here goes:
    Scene: Deck of the Titanic. Passengers mill around aimlessly. On the LEFT side of the stage qshtik can be seen grabbing chairs from a large pile and arranging them in a seemingly random pattern.
    asoka: (in a educated multi-cultural voice) Ceasar Chavez taught us that if you get enough chairs and arrange them “just so” …it will be OK.
    qshtik: (in the trained voice of a UNION actor from California) No, no, my good fellow. The Gipper taught that if you get the chairs in a straight line and think the proper thoughts then, “Morning on Titanic” will be sure to follow.
    progressor strides onto the stage. he is carrying a black child under one arm, and a brown child under the other. The black child carries a rolled up blanket. The brown child carries a box of water and provisions. A small white child sits on his shoulders, desperately clinging to Progressor’s receding hairline with both hands, as though to a horses mane.
    Progressor ( In a gravelly voice with a southern accent) What are y’all doing, boys, I’m thinking this Ship may go down tonight.
    A&Q (in unison) we’re making a perfect arrangement of deck chairs.
    Progressor: Why don’t you take your belts and neckties and tie some of them together to make a raft?
    Vlad runs up. (in a commanding, booming voice) That’s a great idea Progressor. Have you seen any WHITE deck chairs!! I will help you if you will find some WHITE deck chairs!
    Progressor; (bemused) Let me help launch that last lifeboat and get these kids in it and I’ll come back and show you how.
    qshtik: (becoming angry) NO, NO, NO…I know your type. You hate the Titanic and hope she sinks. The GIPPER taught us that we have to merely get the deck chairs right….Then this ship will be, “A shining ship upon the sea!”
    Progressor (sadly exiting toward the lifeboat) Well, OK then boys, maybe I’ll just go in that lifeboat and try to take care of these children myself. Y’all have a good evening, gentlemen.
    Curtain falls to music of DOOM.
    And they told me I’d never get my plays published!
    Ain’t the internet GRAND!
    Everybody have a great 4 day week!

  143. SNAFU July 6, 2010 at 11:04 am #

    Progressor, You quote the aged axiom:
    “There are no Atheists in fox holes.”
    Have you ever been in a foxhole whilst participating in an active war/firefight?
    I spent no time in a foxhole in Viet Nam; however, the time I did spend at Da Nang, Bien Hoa and Saigon in 1965 convinced me that my dog tags “no preference” designation (military speak for atheist back then) was the correct choice. Anyone one who has ever experienced war quickly comes to the realization that if there is a god he is not “merciful, loving or good” and that ones longevity during such frivolities is a function of probability and “luck”; nothing to do with gods’ will.
    My time there irrevocably altered my childish concept of the USA as a good, caring and generous country. The average American has absolutely no concept of what it would be like to experience 1, 2, 3 or dozens of Twin Tower numbers of casualties and structural destruction daily. The last time Americans experienced such was during our civil war almost 150 (145) years ago and to this day the trauma of that war is evinced as hostile feelings between the north and the south.

  144. Laura Louzader July 6, 2010 at 11:05 am #

    Multiculturalism as it is understood and practiced is another form of collectivism, of negating the individual.
    For example, Asoka seems to support the “right” of Muslim enclaves to enforce Sharia law on “their” community members. That means that the local Muslim community has the “right” to conduct honor killings, genital mutilations, and in other ways violate the rights of its members, who are thus denied their human rights.
    A “community” has no rights, Asoka. Only INDIVIDUALS have rights in a free society, and we have the the obligations to protect the rights of every individual human being in this society. That means we cannot permit any “community” to impose its standards on each member in violation of her or his sacred individual right to self-ownership and freedom from violation by others, whether by the tenets of Multiculturalism or in the name of the “nation” or the “community”.
    We unfortunately have paved the way for the violation of our individual rights for the benefit of the “community” or “society” by the collectivist philosophies and creeds that have almost always dominated the thinking of most people in most places. These include not only socialism and communism in all their permutations, but traditional nationalism, and all of our traditional religions. We permitted slavery, an atrocious violation of individual rights, and the state-sponsored mistreatment of various groups in our population because of race or gender or some other “group” affiliation.

  145. Hancock1863 July 6, 2010 at 11:14 am #

    Oh my, CFN visited by yet another “Tea Party Scholar” (spews coffee on keyboard laughing at the oxymoron)
    CFN is a community of generally forward-thinking people who may disagree on a lot of things, but nearly all are unified by being able to see through bullshit and being part of society’s most troubled and haunted groups: those who are among the first to notice things and see through the bullshit.
    Tea Bagger Types, as you have always been and apparently always will be until humanity goes extinct, are a classic case of the opposite effect, the shortsighted and clueless who are always the last to figure things out.
    Amusingly enough, the modern Tea Party is a construct of the Aristocratic Elite, lock, stock, and barrel. But then, why should RW Authoritarianism and it’s gullible followers in 2010 be any different than
    your spritual antecedents in 1933 Germany or 1533 Medieval Europe?
    You said

    The Tea Parties started with people like you, most of them libertarian, most opposed to the wars and the police state.
    Soon as you get a rally together, CNN and MSNBC will be right there to demonize YOU as a lunatic and the other JHKs on the web will be calling you a corn-pone nazi because you must hate the black President.

    Hold on while I spew more coffee onto my keyboard. Excuse me. Where the hell were you and yours during 2001-8, when the Police State was enjoying it’s rise?
    Basking in the glow of Glenn Beck’s ahistorical bibble-babble? Or perhaps Limbaugh or Savage? Cheering on the War Machine and the Police State with the rest of the Tea Baggers, no doubt.
    Now…SUDDENLY, you are all concerned. I must admit, I envy the RW Lie Machine in it’s choice of audience. There hasn’t been a more gullible, mean, ignorant (especially of history) since…well, who am I kidding, you Medieval types have always been with us – just waiting for the next Authoritarian Leader to tell them where to wipe their ass and everybody else’s.
    So cognitively dissonant, so able to hold many contradictory ideas and never once notice that they contradict each other. So clueless and always the Last to Know, you authoritarian followers.
    As for Obama, it’s very likely that ultimately he serves the same forces as you and Michael Savage. It’s a “Good Cop/Bad Cop” thing, but how could you notice? You have to have read some history and have critical thinking faculties to notice stuff like that.
    Plus, you’re too busy demonizing Liberals, just like 1930s Nazis. They hated Liberals as much as you do, PLUS they got to do something about it.
    Oh, and that EVIL “Lib’rul Media”. They are so Liberal that they abetted nearly every one of Bush’s demonstrable lies, from nonexistant WMDs to the fact that his tax cuts overwhelmingly benefitted the Haves and Have Mores. Not to mention the fact that they are SO Liberal that whenever 800 Teabaggers get together they get 24/7 Wall to Wall Coverage while thousands and even millions of marching liberals, immigrants, poor or powerless do so that pesky Liberal Media is SOOOOO Liberal that it makes sure that the fewest numbers of people know that such things ever happened.
    They’re tricky, that Liberal Media. Their “Double Secret Probation Plan” appears to pimp every fart and belch of the RW Lie Machine while disappearing Liberal criticism and ideas. Tricky Liberals, eh?
    I’d tell you to read 1984, but since you are an “extra” in the book, I wouldn’t expect you to figure out it’s about YOU and what powerful Authoritarians, be they Left Wing or Right Wing, do to you and with you once they have enslaved your weak mind.
    Oh, that’s right, I forgot – Sean Hannity says there is no such thing as Right Wing Authoritarianism.
    You’re probably one of those people clueless enough and in spite of mountains of historical evidence and Adolf’s own words, who believes Hitler was a Liberal Leftist. You are, aren’t you?
    In any case, you don’t belong on this website with people who notice things first. You need to stay in the kiddie pools of or the Fox “News” message boards with others of your ilk – i.e. people clueless enough to flip like a switch on any topic the RW Lie Macine tells you to.
    Like deficits, to name one of hundreds of creepy RW examples.
    1981-1992 Deficits don’t matter – shut up you Liberal Moonbat
    2001-2008 Deficits don’t matter – shut up you Unpatriotic Scumbag

    Ah, the Authoritarian Mind. It is as it always was.

  146. Cash July 6, 2010 at 11:15 am #

    One other thing to give multiculturalism its due.
    IMO, Western culture had roots in different cultures, in different times in history and in different places. Multi-cultural roots in other words.
    The roots? Ancient Greek, Jewish, Christian, Roman, Medieval English and French, Muslim, Renaissance and Enlightenment Europe to name a few. Many streams of thought came together to give us what we have now.
    What are the defining characteristics of this common culture? I think the main thing is the notion that the individual is invaluable and irreplaceable. From this comes the idea of freedom, freedom of thought, freedom of expression, freedom of association, rule of law, fair play, due process and other good things.
    It took an inordinately long time but how else did blacks and gays make progress? Their treatment was abhorent and inconsistent with these cultural values and this was widely recognized.
    Why do I value our common culture? Because it works, I think that of all the alternatives it works best and I don’t want to fuck it up.
    Much as enlightened multi-cultural types piss all over it I don’t see a whole lot of them moving to other places that don’t live by such ideas. They trumpet rights for gays. You talk about Sharia. Does Saudi Arabia, Iran and other such places have Gay Pride Parades where a million people show up to party? How do they treat gays?

  147. Tancred July 6, 2010 at 11:19 am #

    “I am more concerned about peak-beer than peak-oil.”
    Actually, contrary to the cultural devolution often mentioned by HK, the area of beer is one that has been improving over the last decade. Never before has more “good” beer been available, and American “taste” in this regard seems to be improving, with the major beer oligopoly having to compete with the hundreds of micro-breweries; Miller Lite and Bud Lite and their ilk are losing market share. They are now marketing what seem to be “fake” micro-brews with disingenuous names. Most beer drinkers can recognize this tactic, and they remain dedicated to the new, smaller breweries. Maybe instead of driving to the outlet malls, more Americans can have cookouts with their own veggies and have some good beer with their neighbors. Downsizing doesn’t have to mean downsudsing.

  148. Paul July 6, 2010 at 11:23 am #

    I am a fan of most of what Jim K. says, but I have to take objection to this notion of saving America’s “common culture” from the immigrants (legal or illegal).
    In addition to the points that Anne made at 12:36 yesterday questioning whether this “common culture” is so great, I would add this: American culture is inherently fluid and dynamic and is always changing by the influx of new peoples. Our culture – at its best – is the culture of incorporating other cultures. It is always evolving.
    I bet the Iroquois of the 1600’s would have been shocked that someday their descendants would be speaking English. Likewise, Americans of the 1800’s would have been mystified by pizza and bagels and sushi. Today, we are horrified that future Americans might be conversant in both Spanish and English. Get over it!
    Meanwhile on Monday, I watched the fireworks over the Hudson River. On the street were Latinos, East Indians, caucasians, blacks. All enjoying the common culture, as it evolves.

  149. Curt July 6, 2010 at 11:26 am #

    Kunstler goes nativist? – Jim contradicts himself here by saying he’s sick of our citizens getting “pushed around” by militarized police – and that we “can’t afford” high speed rail. But supports Arizona immigration law – which we can’t afford to truly enforce and will lead to bullying of U.S. citizens.
    Completely agree on the reforms to banking, transportation and housing. OK, but we CAN afford a military adventure in the Sonoran desert to “secure” a 2000 mile border? Are we going to bus the 20 million illegals back to Mexico? That might deplete world oil resources right there. Lock ’em up? That’ll be cheap. Maybe Jim supports walking them all into cyanide showers. It’s all good since it’s in the name of preserving American culture. History rhymes right Jim?
    If the U.S. economy is going to collapse, as Kunstler keeps saying, then there will be no need to enforce immigration law anyway. BTW, I’d much rather live among a bunch of illegal mexicans experienced in manual farming than the corn-prone Nazis who will love Kunstlers own tea party, because they hate Mexicans even more than they love their Nascar ovals.

  150. Hancock1863 July 6, 2010 at 11:27 am #

    vlad, asoka, qshtik, and all of CFN.
    To express my frustration with the level of discourse on this thread this week I have written a one-act play. With permission of JHK enterprises, here goes:

    That was a beautiful play. Brought a tear to my eye the way you caught the spirit of CFN.
    I am enjoying your comments immensely.

  151. asoka July 6, 2010 at 11:27 am #

    Laura, I think you have it backwards. You say communities do not have right, only individuals have rights.
    Individuals do not have any rights, except those granted to individuals by their membership in a constituted national community.
    And those “rights” can be taken away through national conscription or the imposition of the death penalty, whether by stoning, lethal injection, electric chair, or firing squad.
    Would that I, as an individual, could prevent those practices. But, alas, as an individual I have no right to do so. Now, if I organize a community large enough, the community has rights that the individual does not have.

  152. asoka July 6, 2010 at 11:30 am #

    I agree.
    I hope to see more dramatic productions with the CFN players.
    One question though… how come only the WHITE chairs get mentioned. What about chairs of other colors?

  153. Cash July 6, 2010 at 11:37 am #

    If you are ok with Islamic law you might want to consider this:
    This story is all over the internet.

  154. asoka July 6, 2010 at 11:43 am #

    Cash said: “IMO, Western culture had roots in different cultures, in different times in history and in different places. Multi-cultural roots in other words.”
    On this we can agree, Cash. Thanks for affirming it.

  155. asoka July 6, 2010 at 11:49 am #

    Cash, I am not OK with killing. Killing is abhorent, whether the person was innocent or guilty. Killing of innocents also happens in the “common culture” too often.

  156. asoka July 6, 2010 at 11:51 am #

    Correction: Killing is abhorrent.
    But killing is legally permitted by the common culture, and half of its budget goes toward organized killing. I have opposed that all my life.

  157. ozone July 6, 2010 at 12:04 pm #

    You see it too, eh?
    Oh well, by all appearances, they’ll get to try out their spit-polished “ideas” pretty soon. History is certainly rhyming more and more frequently in more so-nearly-identical ways!
    Lawdy he’p us all, as SNAFU has intimated, it’s gonna be the luck of the draw (and one HELL of a ride).
    A bit more insight and fun with “theories” and “speculative instruments” (that become concrete disasters):

  158. Cupid Stunt July 6, 2010 at 12:24 pm #

    I identify with this completely. I read The Long Emergency at about the same time as Catton’s Overshoot (and the sequel, which I have begun, written three decades later, is even darker since it deals with human behaviour rather than ecology).
    I too over the last two years or so have looked at pregnancy and birth with amazement. Just what kind of world are they going to be living in 30 years from now and do the parents have any idea how that are going to even begin providing for them. The storm that is about to be unleashed on innocent and decent people who have been lied to is literally sickening. I have read President Carter’s extraordinary Address to the Nation (April 18th 1977) many times. Brave, prophetic and totally ignored- drill baby drill. Future generations are going to ask us what we did with all the oil and, well, we just had a one hundred year party, Oh and a few industrial wars. We put up a lot of shitty buildings that will be falling apart long before those left by previous generations such as the Tudors and Victorians.
    As I have posted here before, because the decline will be an exponential function, it will almost certainly be too late to prepare the agricultural system alone, by the time that the predicament becomes obvious, because there simply won’t be the capital available.
    I believe psychologists call the cognitive dissonance “normalcy bias” the things that we have come to accept as normal are, in the context of human history, extremely abnormal. Our leaders are collectively in denial that the party is coming to an end and that within 20 or 30 years from now we will have returned to the normal human condition of being unwashed peasants, if we are fortunate.

  159. Laura Louzader July 6, 2010 at 12:31 pm #

    Asoka, a society that does not recognize individual rights is not a civilization.
    Your RIGHTS cannot be “granted” to you by the “community”. You already morally possess those rights, and the community can only violate them. The community did not “grant” you these rights- you were BORN with them.
    Let’s define a “right”, shall we?
    A RIGHT is that which can be taken from you only by force or fraud.
    Recognition of INALIENABLE RIGHTS, common to every individual human being no matter what the will of his “community” is not only the founding principal of this country, but the basis of true civilization everywhere. A community (nation, town, state) is only civilized to the extent that it recognizes and protects the individual’s INALIENABLE RIGHT to self-ownership, ownership of property, freedom of expression, economic freedom, social freedom, and freedom of movement.
    The community has NO rights- it only has as much powers as the individuals who are its members grant it. If my “community” decides that, say, all single, childless women over the age of 50 should be eliminated as “useless eaters” who are taking jobs and housing away from “providers” and “families”, is this RIGHT?
    Rule by “society” or “community” is either Mob Rule (referred to as “democracy”) or an Oligarchy run for the benefit of the wealthiest and best-positioned; or really, another form of feudalism, such as that practiced in Chicago and other cities these days, and in this country as a whole and referred to as “government-business partnerships”.
    We get the “communities” and governance we ask for- and deserve.
    And we had better start asking ourselves this minute just what kind of governance we asked for and deserve- and what we have all done, jointly or severally, to deserve the corruption, theft, violations of human rights, and state-sponsored violence against innocent, non-criminal individuals, whether on behalf of the “community” or because they belong to a particular group (“rich white men”, or women, or black people or non-Christians or whatever).
    WE will have no real peace or “fairness” in the allocation of dwindling resources until we recognize the value and RIGHTS of every individual human being.
    The United States is the only country founded on an idea, which is the sanctity of individual rights. Our tragedy is that we have so far failed to live up to our own principals. If we fail in upholding rights, there will be no protection left in the world for the individual. And we are failing.

  160. asia July 6, 2010 at 12:39 pm #

    ‘which we can’t afford to truly enforce and will lead to bullying of U.S. citizens.’
    truely the reverse is true.
    and immigration has led to bullying of those born here of citizen parents.
    half a million ancor babie a year my dear.

  161. asia July 6, 2010 at 12:43 pm #

    ‘Can’t you live and let live? If the Muslim culture in Canada wants to impose Sharia law on members of its culture, what harm is that doing you’
    good gawd you are forever a moron!
    you may live and let live BUT THEY DONT…’Can’t you live and let live?’

  162. Hancock1863 July 6, 2010 at 12:52 pm #

    You see it too, eh?

    Yep. I wish I didn’t. As we approach the Endgame of the Aristocrats, it becomes more and more obvious. More and more people are waking up to the true situation.
    However, by the laws of Advertising, Public Relations, Marketing, and Behavioral/Statistical Psychology, it doesn’t matter that more people are waking up. All that matters is that said number be kept from “infecting” the majority away from our infantilized Corporate Media Marketed National Dialogue.
    Thus, the Tea Baggers and other Aristocratic PsyOp/Astroturfing campaigns. The Tea Baggers are indeed waking up to the fact that something is very wrong. The job of the advertisers, marketers, infotainment clowns and RW lie jugglers (not to mention that laughably misnamed “Liberal Media” which has, for all intents and purposes, fused with the RW Lie Machine) is to make sure to head off any awakening and flip it around so that it serves the Aristocratic Elite, even while preaching “populism” and “folksy goodness”, which is just a show for Rubes & Plebs it mentally enslaves and uses like condoms.
    As so many have pointed out on this blog, history does indeed rhyme and if this scenario we are living seems familiar, it is only because it is the oldest story of humanity repeated over and over and over again, by Right Wing Authoritarians (every monarchy and dicatorship prior to 1776, plus the Nazis, The Shah of Iran, Papa Doc, and other more modern versions) and more recently Left Winger Authoritarians (Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot – all modern examples the “Left Wing” being essentially nonexistant prior to The American Revolution and thus unavailable to use as justification for tyranny way back when).
    Sadly, this goes to show that every and any philosophy can and has been used to justify tyranny and oppresssion.
    Edward Bernays – Google him if you don’t know about the Father of Modern Perception Management, now roasting comfortably in Hell with his roomie Josef Goebbels, I pray.

  163. Laura Louzader July 6, 2010 at 1:04 pm #

    It is unbelievable to me that anyone can support the right of the Muslim “community” to impose Sharia law on it’s “own” members.
    This attitude says that the “community” owns its members.
    Asoka, do you remember the Pakistani woman who was burned to death in the family car by her husband, in the Edgewater neighborhood at Glenlake and Broadway a number of years back?
    By the laws of his Muslim “community” he had the right to do that. Why should WE, the citizens of Chicago, care or interfere if some Muslim husband wants to make use of his “community’s” laws to murder his wife?
    Live and let murder, huh? After all, I’m not the woman who was trapped in that car.
    Well, guess what, we don’t give a damn WHAT customs prevail among the Muslim “community” who thought it “owned” this woman- the husband who did this is a stone killer and he is eligible for the death penalty.
    When one person’s rights are violated, all of us have suffered a violation. When one person’s rights are denied, mine are denied by implication.
    If one group can impose Sharia law on its “own” people, what is to keep the White Fundamentalist Christian community from claiming me as its own because I’m a white Anglo-Saxon woman with some Southern antecedents as well as Northern- and subjecting me to THEIR laws?
    And what is to keep the majority White “community” in Chicagoland and elsewhere from re-enslaving blacks and other racial minorities? What do the individual rights of blacks, Mexicans, Asians, and other minorities matter against the “rights” of the Collective?

  164. antimatter July 6, 2010 at 1:13 pm #

    Looks like Nixon’s Southern Strategy has been taken national. I’ve never heard such ‘divide us’ talk on the media, on the campaign hustings, in the blogs. Unemployment benefits only enhance unemployment:
    Here’s what Obama advisor Larry Summers wrote in The Concise Encyclopedia of Economics:
    Unemployment insurance also extends the time a person stays off the job. [Kim] Clark and I estimated that the existence of unemployment insurance almost doubles the number of unemployment spells lasting more than three months. If unemployment insurance were eliminated, the unemployment rate would drop by more than half a percentage point, which means that the number of unemployed people would fall by about 750,000. This is all the more significant in light of the fact that less than half of the unemployed receive insurance benefits, largely because many have not worked enough to qualify.
    This is what we’re up against. I don’t know what the answer is, BUT: I believe the time for us to intellectualize and engage the likes of Summers in debate is OVER. I see no option but to get into the streets, and to start with the Capitol and Pennsylvania Avenue. As the Russian (now living in the US) engineer has said, when Russia started to collapse, there was much intellectualizing about ‘could the be true?’ and eventually, people stopped intellectualizing, and tried to figure out what to do in fact. We are rapidly ending the intellectualizing phase, and heading to action in fact. As a philosopher said, “Time for man to give up hope and start thinking clearly.” We know what this government is doing to America. Time to start thinking clearly, as if we are suddenly threatened with homelessness and no food, because this is where we are headed as a nation.

  165. Hancock1863 July 6, 2010 at 1:20 pm #

    One question though… how come only the WHITE chairs get mentioned. What about chairs of other colors?

    I believe Kurt Vonnegut said it best when he was discussing Victorian England and Muscular Christianity, when he said that the non-white chairs, as you put it, were merely considered “monkeys without tails” by Victorians, Europeans, and Muscular Christianists, which is to say the Aristocracy who run things.
    And while the Global Aristocracy has become slightly more integrated, by and large the thousand or so families that run the world, STILL seems to view the non-white world as “monkeys without tails”.
    I mean, how else to explain that immediately in the aftermath of the end of European Colonization was ended, a new “virtual colonization” was implemented by the World Bank and IMF so that the vast tribute flowing to the USA and Europe could be maintained?
    From a very prescient article:

    As Hannah Arendt discusses in On Revolution, at the end of WWII it was clear that the colonial empires of Europe would be challenged everywhere by revolutionary movements. These would all necessarily be nationalist in part, but the rest of their ideological content was up for grabs. That many like the Vietminh would become communist was not a foregone conclusion. Among many anti-colonial insurgents, the American Revolutionary tradition was held in high esteem. America had total freedom to choose the path of encouraging these national revolutions along the lines of its own heritage.
    Instead the US government chose the opposite path. It chose to trash its own revolutionary heritage, go rogue against its own best angels, and become the ultimate counter-revolutionary power. It chose everywhere to try to help sclerotic, decrepit Europe prop up its vapid imperialism. Although the propaganda lie was that this had to be done to counteract communist aggression, in fact communism instead was the beneficiary of America’s abandoning the field. Given the anti-colonial movements of the Global South, looking to the competing revolutionary heritage powers for assistance and inspiration, America simply punted and betrayed itself, and communism entered the vacuum left behind.
    Not that you and I and pretty much everyone else in the USA haven’t benfitted from it. I’m as flawed as everyone else in that, while I was left alone, I always bought the Aristocracy’s excuses and lies.
    Like most human beings, it was only when the tactics the American Nobility perfected in crushing Third World Nations and liberation movements began to be applied HERE in earnest, that I roused from my consumer-stupor and began to take note.
    Sadly, this too, is a human characteristic – closing one’s eyes to corruption and cruelty until it affects one personally, is one human weakness which the Aristocracy exploits mercilessly, along with all the other human frailties, weaknesses, and gullibilities.
    The bottom line here is that The American and Global Aristocracy, almost without exception in history, view EVERYONE who isn’t in their class as “monkeys without tails”, but getting the races to fight each other like bugs in a bottle not only ensures massive influx of wealth and unchecked power to the Aristocracy, it also exhausts and divides the Plebs, so that we will never notice that the same game, with a new snake skin suit to dress up in every so often the Plebs show signs of stirring, has been played on us for 10,000 years and more.

  166. MINDfool July 6, 2010 at 2:06 pm #

    Community rights versus individual rights. Simple to expostulate on one side or the other, depending on your mental framework. But like much discussion on CFN it is difficult to change individual perspectives to minds nearly ossified in these positions. When it is societies or cultures in opposition the resolution tends to result in war at whatever level. The Muslim/Christian conflict has existed at the macro level for over a millenium. The problem for western societies tends to be an observation that indivduals can be acculturated, but when the cultures are so dissonant the result is very imperfect.

  167. progressorconserve July 6, 2010 at 2:17 pm #

    Thank you very much for the compliment. I have been on here for a couple of weeks now, and you are the first person to directly compliment me on something I have written; as opposed to just expressing agreement…..yeah, or disagreement!
    you said,
    “vlad, asoka, qshtik, and all of CFN. To express my frustration with the level of discourse on this thread this week I have written a one-act play. With permission of JHK enterprises, here goes:
    That was a beautiful play. Brought a tear to my eye the way you caught the spirit of CFN.
    I am enjoying your comments immensely.”
    Hancock, I don’t know how many people have noticed it, but the number of comments on here has been increasing steadily week over week. Not exponential growth yet, but a nice linear rise.
    My hope is to try to help CFN take this thing VIRAL so that we can get the peak oil/environmental collapse idea out to the masses of America.
    If we can do that then CFN will serve as the tiny jeweled bearing surface, on which a huge bank vault door swung….that opened the minds of America to PO……. OK, dude, that is one brutally tortured metaphor. But you complimented my writing. You asked for it. 🙂
    To that end, I didn’t want to just sign in and tell you THANKS, but to give an explanation of the characters in the play…because I have seen a couple of questions from new commenters here.
    asoka is a proxy for the most extreme liberal open border advocate on CFN
    qshtic is a proxy for the extreme right, America first, drill, baby, drill crowd.
    Vlad is a white supremacist, an intelligent likable fellow except for that one teeny flaw
    Progresor is me….scratching my head right now about how to help my Country.
    Keep in touch, Hancock!

  168. messianicdruid July 6, 2010 at 2:23 pm #

    “The problem for western societies tends to be an observation that indivduals can be acculturated, but when the cultures are so dissonant the result is very imperfect.”
    We should, then, ask ourselves: why must societies {or cultures} be intergrated? The Earth is big enough for all people to have a home ||>base

  169. asoka July 6, 2010 at 2:26 pm #

    “A community (nation, town, state) is only civilized to the extent that it recognizes and protects the individual’s INALIENABLE RIGHT to self-ownership, ownership of property, freedom of expression, economic freedom, social freedom, and freedom of movement.”
    Laura, thanks for making your position very explicit. But I fear that you have insulted a very large portion of civilized human beings in the world.
    From whence come these INALIENABLE RIGHTS? From a Western European conception derived from philosophers like Locke and Kant. What makes you think these rights are universal?
    In many parts of the world there is a right of common ownership in all land and in the means of production because we have common needs and an equal right to satisfy them. Many hold all land and its products in trust for themselves and future generations. Your assertion of a private right of ownership is inherently unjust, since it is an attempt to exclude people from what is rightly theirs.
    From whence comes your declaration of PRIVATE PROPERTY RIGHTS? The very existence of private property is a massive interference in the freedom and rights of others, who are excluded from the enjoyment of every item that is privately owned.
    Does your assertion that FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT is a right only apply to persons living within certain collectives (i.e. nation states) or are you asserting an INDIVIDUAL RIGHT to freedom of movement that is absolute and universal? (i.e., my eliminate the borders argument based on FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT)
    You raise many interesting issues, but I am unclear as to the source of rights you are claiming that appear to be NATURAL RIGHTS (and then saying your conception of rights is universal to boot!)

  170. Laura Louzader July 6, 2010 at 2:46 pm #

    The source of these rights are the necessities of life for every living human being.
    And Locke gave us the framework, not Kant. Kant was an explicit collectivist who held that “society” was all and that individuals have no right.
    The notion that private property is a “massive interference”in the freedom of others is bizarre. If I establish ownership of a piece of land by trading something of value for an ownership stake, how am I violating the rights of others by not permitting access? Especially if I have labored to improve it and grow food on it?
    Are unspecified “others” entitled to my labor, my possessions, my LIFE?

  171. progressorconserve July 6, 2010 at 3:25 pm #

    Dear M. Druid, 🙂
    I hope you are correct in your comments. We “civilized” humans have had a lucky run for the past few thousand years. Now if our luck will hold for perhaps 50 more years….we might get to the point where civilizations can, “make their own luck,” so to speak….maybe? But I do totally agree that Mother Nature will always be in charge.
    And I’m on CFN to try to help my grandkid’s generation make it through the next 50 years…which could be in interesting 5 decades.
    you say:
    You are here, We are here kinda thing. The end is not near, or here, it is there. We are moving on
    And this is to you and Diogen who asked last week, “progressor, would you mind sharing some of the things you are doing?”
    We’ve been fortunate to semi-retire to the N. Georgia Mountains. I’ve got property interests that require me travel the state, but rarely. I can go a day or two and never crank a car/truck if I want to. That is a beautiful thing.
    Our lifestyle as regards sustainablity is what you typically hear on here. Like Trippticket, I am very interested in locally adapted foods and open polination, meaning seeds can be saved and replanted, year over year.
    We’ve got local farmers who really grow stuff…100 acres of corn here, a 100 head herd of cattle there.
    I’ve got chickens and hope to add a couple of goats when we get home from summer vacation.
    Real farming, enough to really feed a family is hard grunt labor. I helped my granddad when I was a kid enough to know I could do it if I had to….but I would rather it never come to that.
    I’m doing some work with PV power, and I’m a dealer for a line of heat pump water heaters for southern “type” climates.
    This is getting to be a long post so I’ll sign off for now. I’ve got other ideas I’d like to share, later.
    And SNAFU, I’ll get back to you tonight. Also, budwizer and 8m, I’ve got some ideas I’d like to get some give and take on.
    and a question to all of CFN…is it just me, or is it getting difficult to keep up with the posts on a daily basis?
    Do any of you computer types have a suggestion to JHK and his webmaster about a platform that will let these comment threads GROW AND GROW, while retaining what feels like a real community on here?
    Even if threads were searchable just by “handle” it would be a big help.

  172. Fulcrum13 July 6, 2010 at 3:32 pm #

    Had a strange dream last night…..must have been from watching the History chanel……???
    I kept seeing a picture of Himmler and Rove side by side……very disturbing…. they do resemble each other…..and come to think of their political policies parallel each other….disturbing….disturbing indeed!

  173. ubs July 6, 2010 at 3:35 pm #

    Nickelthrower, thank you for this example. The distance between Verona and Venice is 125 km. The cost is $20 per person, or $100 for a family of 5. I am traveling in a vehicle that consumes approximately 6 liters per 100 km, so the trip would require about 7.5 liter of fuel. At a gas price of 1.4 Euro per liter, the fuel cost for the trip will be 10.5 Euro or $12.60 – roughly one 8th of the train fare. That does not account for the fact that the train will not get to my final destination, so I would have to add the taxi fares, rental cars, etc.

  174. asoka July 6, 2010 at 3:55 pm #

    Laura emphatically said: “The source of these rights are the necessities of life for every living human being.”
    Laura, I am hereby declaring a universal right of common possession. If I am homeless and need, in order to continue living, some land upon which to build my adobe home, I should have the right to build on “your” land (actually it is “our” land) to meet my necessity (which is the source of my right).
    Your ownership of private property is theft because it excludes me from what is, in effect, my natural right of common possession… to meet my necessities of life as a living human being. What’s more, whatever you think you “own” has been wrongfully appropriated since you did not create it, nor did whoever sold it to you.
    My assertion (strangely similar to that of Proudhon) is that property is theft. “Private property” is a creation of arbitrary stipulations of positive law, designed to protect existing relations of control. I don’t have it. You do. And the enforcement apparatus keeps it that way.
    You want me to accept the notion of private property. But everything possessed “lawfully” either is, or has been made from, something which has been wrongfully appropriated.
    In your notion of a “civilization” theft has become a “conventional” crime, starting with the European theft of land from the original inhabitants of America and continuing right up to “eminent domain” theft in favor of private business to build a WalMart or Costco box store.
    As a land owner (apartment owner, condo owner?) you have the control, regardless of my “necessities as a living human being” and you have the force of law and courts and prisons to back up your idea of private property.
    At least until an executive order is issued and you lose everything because your particular group is to go to internment camps, as happened to 120,000 Americans of Japanese, German, and Italian descent. What a civilization you present!

  175. messianicdruid July 6, 2010 at 4:03 pm #

    “Bloom where you are planted” has it’s built in limits. Unless you can build something that elevates and propels itself, or harness an animal that has a bit of extra carrying capacity, you are limited to the distance you can walk.
    Plants cannot {or choose not to} do this. Therefore they have an inherent right to a location, and their seed. Humans can build their own habitat by manipulating matter in their locality.
    Planting with the intent to husband and harvest a crop {of wood for example} creates ownership in the increase of the matter created, with only a ten per cent obligation to give back, or pass on as directed by the Maker, who gives the increase.
    This culture can increase because it is based on life and the living, rather than death and dieing.

  176. Funzel July 6, 2010 at 4:18 pm #

    For every ‘right’ you think you have comes a dozen responsibilities.Without assuming them you have no ‘rights’!

  177. asoka July 6, 2010 at 4:19 pm #

    Laura said: “If one group can impose Sharia law on its “own” people, what is to keep the White Fundamentalist Christian community from claiming me as its own because I’m a white Anglo-Saxon woman with some Southern antecedents as well as Northern- and subjecting me to THEIR laws?”
    You are not a fundamentalist Christian who is a member of a believing congregation, so I think you are safe.
    However, since you brought up the subject, my brother is a Christian fundamentalist in a church which believes women are to submit to men in all things. He can abuse her, he can do anything to her, and his religious belief justifies it.
    Should I be interfering and informing him that his choice of religion does not conform with “common culture”? Should I be spying on them to inform the authorities of any domestic violence I witness? Is that what you and Cash are recommending? Or is it only the Muslims who are the bad guys? Let me know pronto as I want to be sure I am demonizing the right groups.

  178. Qshtik July 6, 2010 at 4:22 pm #

    Laura, you are fighting the good fight. I agree with all you’ve said today. Unfortunately your breath is wasted on Asoka, in particular and the rest of the zero-sum socialists, in general. “From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.”
    I am wondering when folks here will wake up and cease being impressed with gentlemanly replies that begin “Thank you for your explicit, thoughtful and well expressed input but…”

  179. asoka July 6, 2010 at 4:30 pm #

    Qshtik said: “I am wondering when folks here will wake up and cease being impressed with gentlemanly replies that begin “Thank you for your explicit, thoughtful and well expressed input but…”
    It is called civilized discourse, Qshtik.
    Some people prefer it to cursing and name calling.
    BTW, today I am not a socialist. I have decided today is a good day to be a mutualist philosopher inspired by Proudhon’s anarchism.
    Tomorrow I may be something completely different. I reserve the right to change my political philosophy whenever I want. I am large, I contain multitudes.

  180. asoka July 6, 2010 at 4:55 pm #

    Laura said: “Do you think that the citizens in the Maryville TIF area will benefit from the construction of two 50 story condo towers with 850 lucury condos, in one of the most glutted condo markets in the country?”
    No, I don’t. My understanding is the Maryville-Columbus project is currently on hold. (Info from Helen Shiller, Alderman, 46th Ward)
    The Montrose Clarendon TIF District is another matter. Its creation was approved at the last City Council meeting. By creating this TIF District, the Columbus Maryville PINs are now part of a new TIF district with a 23 year life.
    If and when there is development on this site, assuming it is done by a property tax paying entity, the increment that results will be available for improvements at Clarendon Park.

  181. envirofrigginmental July 6, 2010 at 5:13 pm #

    Great post JHK.
    On another note…
    “It’s not the fault of my neighbor hiring one of the guys standing on the corner at U-Haul for a few hours, it’s a systemic problem of agriculture and big corporations who hire the night cleaning crew and so on.”
    ‘Agriculture’ is all but over. A more correct moniker for today’s “food” production (read Thomas Pawlick’s ‘End of Food’) is agribusiness.
    I bought radishes the other day: beautiful, firm, brilliant red radishes. After biting into one, I wondered if I could have recognzed what it was, had I been blindfolded. I would have had trouble.
    I spoke to a contractor friend who rents out his land to local farmers. (I would like to do the same with my property.) His response was depressing. His advice was to not do it, due to the chemical onslaught the land would be subjected to. Our food production is on drugs.
    I then spoke to some people growing their own food. It turns out it’s almost impossible to get a crop out of seeds. One has to buy already germinated plants, otherwise absolutely nothing could be your return on hours and hours and hours of labour.
    After 50 short years, corporations have hijacked agriculture and have turned our food into mere “products” with little to no nutritional value left, in order to mass produce it and make it marketable. We have become a society that is nutritionally deprived. And the system has become an unwieldy machine that can’t turn back the clock due to genetic engineering and chemical dependency. Things do not bode well.
    So as the multitude of inputs in order to grow food commercially become more and more expensive due to PO, the malnutrition currently seen in the lower classes (there are those CheeseDoodles again) will creep up the ladder to those of us who are (so far) more fortunate.
    And I think this ‘growing your own food’ campaign is somewhat delusional. I don’t see people in the US and Canada living off rutabagas and cabbages and relinquishing their right to readily available meat and exotic fruit; at least not with out a fight. But unfortunately social civility has been replaced by a me-centered universe that ‘deserves’ whatever it wants, even if that includes taking it from someone else…so a fight it may be. Better have a gun to protect those squashes in your backyard.
    Methinks things are going to get ugly.
    And to Progresorconserve… I hear you.

  182. Vlad Krandz July 6, 2010 at 6:10 pm #

    And you really think that “The Free Market” will be our salvation? Will produce anything of beauty in and of itself? Margaret Thatcher once said that she didn’t believe in society, just individuals with the State as the enforcer of contracts between them. Such a philosophy will not only not save us, but will bring us swiftly to a medevial situation complete with toll roads, castles, and walled cities (gated communities). You have gotten your wish! But you don’t seem to like it…
    Laura, it’s painful to listen to you. The beautiful places of old America and Europe were the product of communities that were part of a culture. That means the individuals were all more or less on the same page. To go deeper, most people are not individuals and never can be. They just don’t have the inner resources. They’re just copy cats on every level. Why should they be exploited by smarter people or real individuals? Why shouldn’t the individuals guide the lumpens to create harmony, beauty, and prosperity? Yes, the West has valued individual freedom more than other cultures and America most of all. And I like it. But don’t try to make it absolute – it can’t be. The present situation is the result of just such an attempt. After all, if the individual is all and the collective nothing, why shouldn’t other people be rooked and royally so? Libertarianism by itself, is a philosphy of the anti-social and the psychopath.
    John Locke was very concerned about possible anti-child labor laws. We’re talking six and under here. He thought such laws threatened the child’s rights! Childhood indigence was a big problem in the mind of this big thinkeer who lived insider his own mind.
    The True Individual will grow most often and for the best in a true Culture. There are individuals elsewhere, but they are tormented and often grow wild like weeds, becoming psychopathic investor types who feel superior to everyone.

  183. progressorconserve July 6, 2010 at 6:14 pm #

    seems like you were an atheist earlier, too.
    Maybe not, doesn’t really matter.
    To me, on this website, you could be any thing you like, as long as you framed your arguments in terms of peak oil and environmental collapse.
    If you refuse to do that I suggest you change your phrase
    “I am large, I contain multitudes,”
    “I am large, I contain trolls!”
    Have an outstanding evening, CFN!

  184. dplainview July 6, 2010 at 6:28 pm #

    Can referring to “theft” as “undocumented possession be far behind?

  185. Vlad Krandz July 6, 2010 at 6:31 pm #

    You are close to the Truth, just extend it back a hundred years of so too. The Bankers financed Communism as a way to break Western Culture. Traditional Western Culture, Christianity, the Family, Russia, the United States, etc, all had to go so that the Terrible Beauty, the Global State could come into being. And of course, they are behind modern Capitalism too. And in the middle being squeezed from both ends are the Nations and Peoples of the World. This is the Vise as described so well by Gary Allen of the John Birch Society. Actually he may not have been a member, but they read his books. I’m not a member either, but I admire much of the work they’ve done. They were certainly right along with Joe McCarthy, about the massive Soviet Infiltration of our Society in the mid twentieth century. Of course, they may have overemphasized that since much of it was homegrown as per their central thesis. The home of Communism is after all, London and New York City. Moscow was just a johnny come lately.

  186. Vlad Krandz July 6, 2010 at 7:14 pm #

    Yes but did Lao Tzu change his principles everyday? He said “…water is the softest thing…”. Did He then go and say water is the hardest thing? No, because it was a Principle, by definition something that doesn’t change.
    Everything changes except change itself. A principle, albeit a false one. Many things don’t change, f=ma for example. Or a+b=c therefore c-b=a.
    Heraclitus said “You can’t enter the same river twice”. True, but incomplete. Yes it’s never the same molecules of water going by, but is the river itself always changing? Is it one moment a raging torrent and the next a tiny brook and the next a mighty Mississipi? No, a river changes slowly over time and for definite geological or climactic reasons. It’s not a senseless, whimsical thing like you are. The changes themselves follow real principles or laws of nature.
    Your thinking is magical, based of wish fufillment. It is Piaget’s pre-operational thinking in which causality is not deeply understood. You might enjoy cartoons like the Telle Tubies. The really crazy thing is that you have retained access to higher level of thought but you live at a much lower level. You actually use the higher levels of concerete operational (logic applied to things) and post operational (logic applied to thought itself) to support your pre-operational projects. Using the higher in service of the lower is the very definition of degeneration and black magic.

  187. Kentucky Scot July 6, 2010 at 8:51 pm #

    Great post. Based upon the flood of comments you have, it appears you have struck a chord. Now, quit picking on the South and Scots Irish. You are just jealous of our fierce attitude barely muted by the passage of time. I am a proud Scots Irish. My ancestors were pioneers and fought in the Revolutionary War. My kin civilized Kentucky arm-in-arm with Daniel Boone and Simon Kenton. We are the blood and muscle that made this country. I think most of us would be in your Tea Party. Good luck with the Revolution.

  188. Laura Louzader July 6, 2010 at 9:02 pm #

    Asoka, Helen Schiller hasn’t tabled the Maryville TIF.
    The Maryville TIF has become the Montrose/Clarendon TIF, a $69 million boondogle generated to line the back pockets of Sedgewick Development.
    This project is a failure in the inception and it’s a wonderful example of how politicians screw up when they try to drive the economy by financing development that would be impossible to finance otherwise.
    I mean, this is just what Chicago, one of the most glutted condo markets in the country, needs: two 40 (or is it 50) story towers with over 800 “luxury” condos, in the laughably glutted north lakefront condo market. Just a couple of miles north in Edgewater stand the Clarovista and Catalpa Gardens, two absolutely hideous high rises, with half their units empty and unsold, and the rest sold to “flippers, or in foreclosure. Just south of the Clarendon/Montrose areas, in Lakeview, prices are falling like a decabling elevator, almost as fast as in Edgewater and Rogers Park.
    This is as bad as the Wilson Yards TIF, from which it grew. At Wilson Yards, the TIF subsidized the construction of “affordable low-income” apartments at a cost of $447,000 a unit while there are hundreds of unsold condos available to buy for less (sometimes WAY less) than $100,000, standing unsold and deteriorating, ,that could have been made habitable for an additional cost of no more than $25,000; plus a Target store only a few miles away from the almost-new store on Peterson, from which it will take market share.
    Asoka, do you realize that two-thirds of the property taxes paid by property owners in the TIF district will go to subsidize this TIF. How long will it take for these developments to pay back the taxes spent subsidizing them, and that’s only IF the TIFs do not get extended for another 23 years. Chicago’s crime rates are ratcheting up because our police department is underfunded and undermanned, and the city is nearly insolvent as it is. Worse, the unsubsidized who pay for all this are being blasted out of their houses, condos, and business properties by the escalating property taxes. A friend of mine who owns a 3-store front building on ARgyle pays $25,000 a year taxes for them- for a building that is frankly a tear-down and barely collects $5000 a month rent.
    But most of all, these developments are tragic misallocations of resources, especially the 40-story condo development. At least the “affordable” apartment building is good looking and appropriate in scale, and will be a usable building for many decades to come. The condo towers, on the other hand, will be just two more overscaled, energy guzzlers and the Target store will be just another empty Big Barn store usable for no other purpose once Target extracts all the tax bennies it can out of the thing and moves on to the next subsidized store. You will notice that the Border’s store on Broadway, brought us by the Broadway/Lawrence TIF, will go empty as soon as Border’s, which is failing rapidly, finds a subtenant- or folds altogether, which is rather likely. We got the beautiful old office building across the street restored- I guess that’s something, but it could have been done at a far lower cost to the taxpayers.
    Most government-sponsored economic developments are costly failures that have returned to the taxpayers perhaps 10% of their costs to the taxpayers. Worse, they foster inappropriate, overscaled development and the waste of resources that could be more usefully deployed elsewhere, like in the back pockets and bank accounts of the taxpayers, who might like to be relieved of the necessity of insuring Sedgewick and other TIF developers against normal business risk while they themselves are being financially destroyed and often blasted right out of their homes and businesses by escalating property taxes.

  189. Laura Louzader July 6, 2010 at 9:03 pm #

    Vlad, I’m not ignoring you. I’ll answer you a little later.

  190. asoka July 6, 2010 at 9:07 pm #

    Vlad said: “It’s not a senseless, whimsical thing like you are.”
    Thanks Vlad. On the relative plane it is whimsical.

    “When you realize yourself as completely empty and devoid of all form…
    this is wisdom
    When you realize yourself as the fullness of love
    overflowing itself without object…
    this is bliss,
    And when you are aware of yourself incarnate
    in the appearance of form…
    this is leela.”
    –Eli Jaxson-Bear

    Lighten up a little Vlad. It is all divine play.
    Oh, and terribly important to Peak Oil and environmental collapse and our grandchildren. Spend some more time with grandchildren, playing… they have something to transmit that we need.

  191. asia July 6, 2010 at 9:14 pm #

    ‘It is unbelievable to me that anyone can support the right of the Muslim “community” to impose Sharia law on it’s “own” members’:
    soldier fight the good fight

  192. asia July 6, 2010 at 9:15 pm #

    ‘I welcome all the immigrants!’
    to a country he doesnt live in!
    when he welcomes them into his dwelling..THATS SINCERITY

  193. Paul July 6, 2010 at 9:15 pm #

    Asoka: Thanks for your wise words.
    Laura: There is no such thing as inalienable, God-given rights, other than the right to live. Every other “right” is a man-made product of the community – whether good or bad, all other “rights” are derived from man-made law. And ultimately, the derive from a sense of community, a sense of shared values.

  194. rocco July 6, 2010 at 9:50 pm #

    JHK and other posters, thank you good suggestions this week. It’s “fun” to think and complain about our collapse but more inspiring to see what actions we can take. But my positive feeling slipped away abit when my news alert broke in,thinking a heat related emergency,it was not its actress Lindsey Lohan under arrest for breaking parole,then on national news right after the oil spill story. Lets us forget peak oil and worry an actress needs our help.

  195. Qshtik July 6, 2010 at 9:53 pm #

    It is called civilized discourse, Qshtik.
    Asoka’s civilized discourse, from
    mask – anything that disguises or conceals; disguise; pretense: His politeness is a mask for his fundamentally malicious personality.
    veneer – a superficially valuable or pleasing appearance: a cruel person with a veneer of kindliness.
    facade – a superficial appearance or illusion of something: He managed somehow to maintain a facade of politeness.

  196. asoka July 6, 2010 at 10:01 pm #

    ad hominem
    Appealing to personal considerations rather than to logic or reason: Debaters should avoid ad hominem arguments that question their opponents’ motives.

  197. asoka July 6, 2010 at 10:25 pm #

    Thanks for the update Laura. Are you in danger of losing everything because of these Chicago political shenanigans? If things crash for you in Chicago, you are welcome to come to New Mexico to share my adobe home when I get it built.
    Right now I am learning adobe construction by helping others. I can’t start on my own place until I find some land.

  198. Hancock1863 July 6, 2010 at 10:26 pm #

    You said:

    The Bankers financed Communism as a way to break Western Culture. Traditional Western Culture, Christianity, the Family, Russia, the United States, etc, all had to go so that the Terrible Beauty, the Global State could come into being.

    I presume by The Bankers, you mean The Jews or perhaps I should use the more formal “Elders of Zion”. (chuckle)
    Allow me to propose an alternate explanation. Maybe Communism was a desperate outburst by people who had been shat on and abused, like the rest of pre-1914 Peasant Europe, for a millenia and got sick of being hung to death for stealing a rabbit while a bunch Rich Assholes lived the high life, to simplify a complex issue for brevity’s sake.
    And maybe, Communism, like apparently pretty much every social system human beings have devised (even our advanced American System, created by some of the best humanity had to offer at the pinnacle of the Liberal Enlightenment) degenerated into a bunch of Elite Assholes (Rich Communist Assholes in the USSR, instead of Rich Capitalist Assholes in the USA) looting everything while the Peasants are being robbed blind.
    Then you said:

    They were certainly right along with Joe McCarthy, about the massive Soviet Infiltration of our Society in the mid twentieth century. Of course, they may have overemphasized that since much of it was homegrown as per their central thesis. The home of Communism is after all, London and New York City.

    Puh-leeze! Joe McCarthy was a paranoid, vindictive liar. During the Cold War, both sides spied on and infiltrated each other. It was part of the game and probably still is. To make the leap that means that McCarthy’s wild accusations had substance is specious in the extreme.
    And, for the record, I despise Communists primarily because they’re largely a bunch of authoritarian sociopaths. Wherever they have gained power they have crushed individual liberty and simple human decency. Much like Racist Fascists.
    I never understood why you Racist Fascists can’t get along with the Communists. I mean, you’re both Authoritarians. Is it a Coke vs. Pepsi thing? Competing for the same market share of Gullible Authoritarian Follwers keeping you apart? But…but…they’re both colas!
    Finally, you said:

    Why shouldn’t they be exploited by smarter people or real individuals? Why shouldn’t the individuals guide the lumpens to create harmony, beauty, and prosperity?

    Wow, guy – that’s some real creepy Nazi horror movie stuff there!
    “Harmony, beauty, prosperity.”
    Yep, that’s how just about anyone would describe Authoritarian RW Fascist nations like Germany or Italy circa 1937 or LW Communist Authoritarian nations like the USSR and Commie China, circa 1970. Hitler and Mao, Stalin and Mussolini – oh what harmony, beauty and prosperity!
    But why stop there, eh Vlad? Why not involuntarily harvest the organs of the lumpens and keep those few “real individuals” alive for longer periods of time. After all, they’re only lumpen copycats, not REAL people. Plus, you know, REAL people like yourself can exploit those desperate lumpens on their way to organ harvesting, as is your right.
    I hear some of those big-breasted Liberal Jewesses can be very sexually energetic in bed if you promise them that you will switch them and their little kids off the list for organ harvesting and let them stay in the Relocation Camp a little while longer.
    And then, because they’re only lumpens and not REAL people like you, you don’t even have to keep your word to them and their little nits later!
    Need I say that I am being grotesquely sarcastic, which is only fitting giving the grotesque sentiments you often express? People can be pretty oblivious to sarcasm on the Web, I have found. Maybe you found my sick little sarcasm…stimulating.
    Don’t make a mess in your Lord of the Rings underoos.

  199. Qshtik July 6, 2010 at 11:11 pm #

    Paul said to Laura –

    There is no such thing as inalienable, God-given rights, other than the right to live. Every other “right” is a man-made product of the community – whether good or bad, all other “rights” are derived from man-made law. And ultimately, the derive from a sense of community, a sense of shared values.

    Paul, I am not opposed to a person providing their own definition for a word so long as they make it clear it is merely their opinion and not that of generally accepted authorities such as recognized dictionaries and encyclopedias. And so, I would like readers here to know that your definition above for ‘every other “right”‘ is exactly the opposite of a recognized on-line encyclopedia’s definition of “natural rights.”
    Wikipedia says – natural rights (also called moral rights or inalienable rights) are rights which are not contingent upon the laws, customs, or beliefs of a particular society or polity. Natural rights are thus necessarily universal, whereas legal rights are culturally and politically relative.
    And further, from inalienable is defined as inherent.
    In similar fashion, last week several posters provided their own definitions of “wealth” and characterized the economy as a “zero-sum-game” when clearly every recognized authority on the subject said otherwise. Their way around this little difficulty was to, effectively, impugn the recognized authorities.

  200. progressorconserve July 6, 2010 at 11:30 pm #

    You are correct that JHK is preaching to the choir here. It’s his choir loft, anyway!
    I’m trying to prod CFN into some sort of collective brain action to get the word out.
    MOST of the posters on here “get” peak oil and environmental collapse. I think if we could concentrate on framing everything we do and say in those terms we might just get somewhere. Gotta Hope, anyway!
    Anyway…why I’m writing you, tonight….I recall you mentioning a “trigger point” where oil prices would cause severe pressure. You were going back and forth with a guy last week about where that point would be.
    So here’s a story to add to your arsenal:
    We built a house two years ago, right as people thought real estate would recover and not completely collapse. And we had a bunch of talented local boys working hard on the thing for a couple of months. Some days they would bring 8 trucks and a couple of trailers for a six man crew. LOL
    Then gas spiked up to $4.25/gallon and we had some spot shortages. And my GC parked his monster Chevy 4X4 quad cab and started showing up in an old S-10 compact pickup packed completely full of men and equipment….it was the only one with gas in it
    One more story…I drive the 1-75 corridor south of Atlanta from time to time. Four years ago gas was $1.50?/gallon and every 5th vehicle would be an RV…”sunbirds” going to and from Florida.
    Now at $2.75/gallon RV’s are a pretty rare sight.
    My point is that you are correct; there are “trigger points” on gas prices. Americans can react very quickly when changes are based on visible prices at the pump.
    Gas has to go up eventually. I’d rather take it up now by taxes a little bit at the time, so the country can react and plan.
    I sure don’t want to see it bounce around from two dollars to six dollars and back again to four.

  201. Vlad Krandz July 6, 2010 at 11:34 pm #

    Ah so you admit the Jews were behind the Russian Revolution? Very good “Comrade” and thank you. That in itself is new to the soft core types around here. And who financed them? Surely you know that peasants with mattocks don’t get anywhere. The French Revolution was financed by renegade French Nobility backed by English Nobles and Jewish Bankers. The Russian Revolution was backed by their Jewish Banker kinsmen in the West. Trotsky used to play chess with Baron Rothschild himself. That wasn’t so hard was it? It must be a bitter pill for you that we are right about so many things. But swallow it you will – the Truth is on our side. Do you want me to apologize for being right? Or should I apologize to the Jews that they killed millions?
    Oh and btw, Russia was liberalizing and modernizing rapidly. They would have gotten equal rights fairly soon. But they prefered total power and revenge. And of course with control of the press they were able to cover it up. But it is to big to cover up forever. The blood of their victims cries out from the ground. Alot of decent liberal Jews are in for a very rude awakening over the next few years as they find out the extent they’ve been lied to about what vonderuful people they are. The way the Zionists have acted in Palestine is just the opening of the curtain.
    So what are you, an anarchist? Stupidest people who ever lived. They march with the Communists even though the two philosophies are completely antithetical. The anarchists who fought in Spain were even more murderous and depraved than the average communist. And if they Communists had won, the Anarchists would have been purged just as they were in Russia. Truly, they give new meaning to Lenin’s phrase, “useful idiots.”
    You have a problem with authority. Do you want me to apologize that some people are much smarter than others? But that is no excuse for tyranny as I made clear in my post. Your attempt to obfuscate and make it seem like I’m in favor of this, is just an example of your malice and mendacity. You fool no one except yourself.
    There are clear differences between Communism and Fascism, but they would be lost on someone as angry and rebellious as you are. Go live in a cave by yourself for a few years. No toilet paper – it’s corrupt and nonbiodegradebable. Just use your left hand comrade. Get back to me in twenty years when you’ve calmed down a bit.

  202. asoka July 6, 2010 at 11:43 pm #

    Progressorconserve said: “MOST of the posters on here “get” peak oil and environmental collapse.”
    What is your understanding of peak oil? It is not a tipping point. It is simply the point at which production peaked, and it happened in 2005.
    Now we head down the other side of the bell curve, and that ride could last 47 years. Worldwide oil production in the year 2030 will be the same as it was in 1980. This will be very painful because the world’s population in 2030 will be both much larger (approximately twice) and much more industrialized (oil-dependent) than it was in 1980.
    But peak oil does not necessarily mean societal collapse, economic depression, or our doom.
    More likely it means decades of stagnation similar to what Japan has experienced in the last ten years. And Japan has not experienced a Mad Max doomsday type situation.

  203. progressorconserve July 6, 2010 at 11:53 pm #

    Hopefully just a quick comment to you and then I’ve gotta check out for the night.
    asoka is wearing me out right now. Too much shape shifting and WAAAY too much “straining at gnats and swallowing of camels in his arguments.
    And he’s actively subverting intelligent discussion about peak oil, or much of anything else. Shiria law for American women….jeeze!!
    Any eightm, I’m really starting to feel your pain, man. Every week you present a well reasoned argument in favor of buses. Simple, elegant buses with private compartments and RR suspensions.
    I cannot wait to ride one of the things!
    And I want slogans, simple elegant slogans:
    Oil is cheap because we steal it from the future without regard to cost.
    Illegal immigration is bad for Mexico, bad for the US, and bad for the Planet.
    Tax gas today so America can move in the future!
    My eyes are crossing. I’ll have more on buses tomorrow. And SNAFU, I’ve got a couple of things about Atheists in foxholes.
    PLEASE talk about saving the planet!
    for my grandson? or any other human being?
    asoka, are BP and XOM paying you to muddy the water on this thread. They should be!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    I’m done.

  204. asoka July 7, 2010 at 12:19 am #

    progressorconserve said: “Shiria law for American women….jeeze!!”
    I hear your exasperation and I want you to take that passion you feel about Sharia law and consider that Muslims share an equal passion about American society which embodies immoral values that Islam must oppose.
    They look at the level of divorce, broken families, gangs, sexual assault, child abuse, obesity, prostitution, drunkenness, domestic violence, unwed mothers, and other social, political, and economic corruptions that American represents.
    Muslims are literally fighting for their lives, their culture, and their way of life because the USA has bombed, invaded, and occupied their countries trying to impose a system which has yielded divorce, broken families, gangs, sexual assault, child abuse, obesity, prostitution, drunkenness, domestic violence, and other social, political, and economic corruptions of an American society born of the “Enlightenment” and liberal democratic values.
    The Muslim world is saying emphatically, “thanks but no thanks… yankee go home!”
    At least understand they feel as strongly about the rightness of their way of life as you do about the rightness of yours. And they feel Sharia law is just as correct, just as essential for their society in much the same way Judeo-Christians feel the Ten Commandments are correct.
    And then take a vow to not support any more killing of Muslims and learn to respect Islam.
    Assalaamu ‘Aleykum —- peace be on you!

  205. asoka July 7, 2010 at 12:30 am #

    progressorconserve said: “And asoka, could WE PPPPLLLLLEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAASSSSSSSSEEE!!!!!!
    PLEASE talk about saving the planet!”
    OK. Cut defense spending in half (we spend more on “defense” than all the other countries of the world combined) and shut down all the torture prisons, military bases, and stop the ongoing wars and bring the troops home.
    This will accomplish two things:
    1) it will save oil because the defense industry is the most wasteful consumer of oil in the United States.
    2) it will free up hundreds of billions of dollars that can be invested in alternative energy systems our grandchildren will depend upon for their energy, because our grandchildren are not going to have limitless oil.
    Are you in agreement with this proposal to save the world?

  206. Laura Louzader July 7, 2010 at 12:31 am #

    No thanks, Asoka. All the gangs and corrupt, thieving pols of Chicago don’t scare me half as much as the thought of living in a place with no natural water supply of its own, or at least not enough water of its own for its current population.
    New Mexico is too heavily dependent for water and maybe electrical power, upon the Colorado River plumbing system, which as I have noted in foregoing posts, has a rather short horizon ahead of it. I don’t want to live downriver from that chain of dams below the Glen Canyon dam.
    I’ll stay in Chicago a block from Lake Michigan, which is 5% of the world’s fresh water supply. As gasoline becomes more expensive, the noisy, polluting boats will disappear. The 147 and 155 buses are at my door and the train is down the street. We have a farmer’s market here and we just built ANOTHER community garden. We have the museums, the libraries, and over 100 little theater companies. We have a lot of land in Chicago available to farm and a local culture that supports walking and cycling.
    When all the Crook county pols and their cronies have done plundering the city, we’ll be here to pick up the pieces. They still haven’t managed to destroy Chicago’s beautiful old architecture and tree-lined streets even though they’re doing their level best to turn this city into another Detroit.
    I’m staying in the place I know. There’s no perfect place of human habitation, and when the “Long Emergency” becomes serious, I want to be around people I know in a city I know, a city with half-decent public transit, ample fresh water, relatively cheap housing, well-established cultural institutions, and well above sea level. I’ve lived here for 25 years, and almost everyone I know is here. If ever I had to leave, the only other place I could imagine going is St. Louis, as beaten-up as it is, because my family is there.
    There will be enough people fleeing places that have become utterly uninhabitable. I don’t want to be on the road with them, thanks.

  207. asoka July 7, 2010 at 1:07 am #

    Laura, I understand your reasons for wanting to stay in Chicago, but I should clear up that what you said about New Mexico applies mostly to northern New Mexico.
    I am thinking of going to southwestern New Mexico, near the Arizona border which is supplied by the Gila Watershed, which lies within Grant and Catron counties of southwestern New Mexico (though several headwater streams are in Sierra County). The Gila River is a strong flowing river and the lowermost reaches of the Gila River flow through Hidalgo County.
    The Gila River is the only un-dammed major river in New Mexico.
    The population of Grant County is 31,002 (US Census Bureau 2000), of which 10,545 live in Silver City. Catron and Hidalgo counties, in contrast, have substantially fewer residents.
    Running out of water is not a concern since we have aquifers and running rivers and many reservoirs in the Gila Watershed and a population of 31,000 residents in Grant County (compare that to Cook County’s 5,294,664 residents, which is 43.3% of all Illinois residents). The population of Grant County places very little stress on a plentiful water supply.
    How is the water quality in Lake Michigan? How is the fishing? In the Gila Watershed we have Non-native rainbow and brown trout which are common in mid to high-elevation streams, and red shiner and western mosquitofish which are common in low elevation streams.
    Gila trout occupy cold, high-elevation headwater streams of the Gila River sub-drainage in the Mogollon and Black Mountain ranges (where I hope to build an adobe house). Speckled dace occupy some cold, head-water streams as well as warm, head-water streams. Longfin dace and desert and Sonora suckers occupy warm water streams.
    I really hear you about the cultural life Chicago offers. Aside from a local public library New Mexico is lacking in entertainment. But my idea is to go inward, a kind of spiritual retreat before death … and many people who are interested in that find their way to desert climates.
    My conception of life is basically a four-stage Hindu model: student, householder, retired, and sannyasin. I have completed the first three and am ready to enter into the stage of sannyas. I’ve already been to India and met my guru, so I’m good to go! Hari Om Tat Sat!
    I wish you the best of luck with your struggles to bring some sanity to Chicago politics. You have more staying power than I do, and I admire you for that. I can’t stomach any more of it.
    I have enjoyed our visit today.

  208. Hancock1863 July 7, 2010 at 1:10 am #

    You are so clueless in your assessment of me, as you are clueless about much else besides your creepy Lord of the Rings fetish.
    I mean, who knew that Tolkien’s tales would turn up in the Fascist Porn Drawer? Not me, but the Internet allows one to learn all kinds of things.
    You said:

    Ah so you admit the Jews were behind the Russian Revolution? Very good “Comrade” and thank you.

    Actually, I said nothing of the sort. I was mocking you. How like a humorless Fascist not to notice. How like an Authoritarian Fascist to simply ignore reality and invent your own based on a dumb joke. Is that part of your awarding yourself the right to exploit your presumed “inferiors”, this shameless telling of lies? I bet it is.
    About the various financing of revolutions, for which I’d need to see some evidence and I don’t mean Stormfront or some other such lying Fascist nonsense, what about the American Revolution?
    Was THAT financed by Evil Jews, because it certainly was financed by French Nobles!
    How come you don’t group the American Revolution in with the others?
    You said:

    So what are you, an anarchist?

    Ha ha, no, I am a firm believer in the US Founding Documents (Declaration, Constitution, Bill of Rights) and continue to believe that the System of Checks and Balances, if it or any other social system could resist the natural tendency of Rich Authoritarian Assholes to want everything including a docile, dumbed-down populace that makes it easier for them to fleece, is by far the finest ever invented by human beings.
    Unfortunately, it appears that even this finest attempt couldn’t stop the inevitable.
    You said:

    Do you want me to apologize that some people are much smarter than others? But that is no excuse for tyranny as I made clear in my post. Your attempt to obfuscate and make it seem like I’m in favor of this, is just an example of your malice and mendacity. You fool no one except yourself.

    I went back and reread the post, you liar. Nowhere in that post do you mitigate your comments nor say that it’s “no excuse for tyranny” or anything that could be construed
    as such.
    More fascist lies. Why is it you fascists always accuse your victims of what you yourselves are doing? Quite a creepy form of projection, and cowardly, too. The Jews killed millions, did they? I guess that whole Holocaust thingy was false and just made up by Liberal Hollywood Jews, right?
    And just because one accepts that some people are smarter than others, it’s a far cry to believe it gives them automatic license to exploit those not as smart.
    Besides, you know as well as I do that smart has very little to do with who exploits who in this world. It’s the meanest, cruelest, most ruthless who do the exploiting in almost all cases.
    Smarts, other than a certain weasel cunning and murderous foresight (if such could be called “smarts”), usually don’t come into it other than a bare minimum requirement.

    There are clear differences between Communism and Fascism,

    Sure there are differences. One bunch of limp-small-dicks pretends to be the Friend of The People. The other bunch of limp-small-dicks pretends to be the Friend of The People. One bunch of shameless, cowardly toads uses The Big Lie as a strategy to rewrite history for their own nefarious ends. The other bunch of shameless, cowardly toads uses The Big Lie as a strategy to rewrite history for their own nefarious ends.
    Oh sure, each group of gutless turds uses a slightly different economic philosophy to justify their lies, but both meet on the fields of cruel, ignorant authoritarianism.
    Maybe that’s why you guys hate each other so. It’s not the differences that keep you apart, but that you’re so much ALIKE.
    P.S. Just because someone has a problem with authoritarianism (you know, like the Founding Fathers did) doesn’t mean they have a problem with all authority. Was that one your intentional fascist lies or are you really too dumb to make the distinction?

  209. eightm July 7, 2010 at 2:26 am #

    What I find incredible about JHK and others, is that they talk about trains, chu chu trains and all, and leave out the most important part: the last mile. How on earth will any possible passenger train have any passengers if they can’t get from their house to the station of departure, then from the station of arrival to destination ? Is that so hard to understand ? Every time people, governments, “researchers”, politicians and anyone else talk about “High Speed Trains, like in JAPAN”, how come they forget about THE LAST MILE ? How is that intelligent people are so clueless and stupid on these issues ? Has their brains been completely lobotomized ?
    Even before talking about trains and high speed rail and any form of mass transit that can really work, that has any possibility, an efficient and complete BUS transit system must be first put in place. The trains would come after the BUS systems are in place.
    1) In order to use railroads you need the “last mile” connection, the connection that runs from your suburban home or inner city home to train station of departure A, and then from train station of arrival B, to your suburban or inner city office park. Having railroads with no extensive and complete BUS system is like having a pool with no water.
    2) While railroad transit cannot operate at all without the complementing BUS transit, BUS transit can operate perfectly without railroads.
    3) The huge massive infrastructure for BUS transit is already in place and has been built and in development for over fifty years and represents a multi-decade trillion dollar investment already financed and finished. No other nation on earth comes even close to the amount of roads and highways the USA has, it is one of the most massive resources of the USA and one of its most important overall assets: IT IS A LARGE CHUNK OF THE WEALTH OF AMERICA.
    (just compare it to the goat trails of Northern Italy, and most of the rest of the world including the west and JAPAN someone talked about above).
    4) The cost of creating a very efficient and complete BUS transit system, that can be run by any combination of local, state, federal or private actors, in any of hundreds of possible ways, by using internet calling systems, by using many different kinds of BUSES, high class, luxury etc. is so small, is absolutely tiny compared to the 2 trillion dollars the USA health care system costs, compared to the 500 billion dollars the USA defense costs, compared to the one trillion dollars the bank bailouts costs, etc. In fact with only 10 billion dollars you could supply the USA suburbs with about 10,000 BUSES, that would be 100 new BUS routes in the 100 most important metropolitan areas.
    The cost is peanuts, the technology is very well known, the infrastructure is there, then why doesn’t anyone ever mention or think about this so simple solution to the energy – oil problem ? Because they have been brainwashed to think BUSES “are bad”, the neural circuits of 300 million americans have been hardwired in such a way so that even the simple concept, the simple idea of BUS transit gets erased into oblivion in their minds.
    The solution has been staring in the face of America for 50 years, no one seems to see it. I can’t believe it.
    Anyways, all of JHK’s railroad fantasies, and all of the fantasies everyone else has about railroads is just like “magical thinking”, and “wishing on a star”: it will never happen without a huge and efficient BUS transit system.
    Unless you live and work exactly in the departure and arrival stations…

  210. eightm July 7, 2010 at 4:05 am #

    You could add rampant Impotency and Frigidity (even amongst teens), rampant infertility, rampant sex – love unsatisfaction at all levels, etc. This is because the Western (maybe enlightened, maybe liberal) model of expecting that we could obtain all through feminism, through women being “assertive”, through “experimenting”, open couples, bisexuals, gay prides, by birth control pills, by viagras, by breaking all the “traditional rules”, would create a sexually and emotionally free life.
    Nothing further from the truth: the Christian fundamentalists have it right, women must be subdued (or pretend to be, and always be passive and always lie and pretend to be happy towards men), The traditional couple is the only possible format, no open couples, no gays or lesbies (they must hide like it once was), sex must be a hidden taboo, like it once was, no divorce (it creates poverty), no discussions, the women obeys the man commands, children must be disciplined and behave themselves like it once was, etc.
    So maybe this is what the Muslims want and don’t like about the Western society. Are they right ? Who knows…
    Anyways these issues are so complex and so debatable at all levels that no two people will ever be on the same page, actually even a single person can ever have it clear even within himself…

  211. eightm July 7, 2010 at 4:37 am #

    Check out:
    really simple and fast and efficient solution to the “energy problem”, “global warming”, “peak oil (if it is even true)”, etc. would be to use Mass Transit all across the USA and all of its suburbs. This can easily be done by an efficient high tech BUS transit system, can be managed by public, semi public or private companies of any kind, maybe even private companies performing some form of “competition”, such as to “improve”, said Mass Transit.
    (old6598, nameta9, Instant Singularity)
    in general…
    Open Brains, Change their circuits, Create a new Universe..

  212. eightm July 7, 2010 at 8:55 am #

    If there was any minimum interest at all in Mass Transit in America, it should have started long ago with Silicon Valley Startup companies devising systems that could track each “point to point” transfer of automobiles across the USA, the frequency of transfers, using databases, computers, software, using models that could follow the traffic, where there is more and less, how an imaginary BUS transit system could be applied for the maximum usage etc.
    This stuff, with all of the “researchers”, NASA, Military Research, Supercomputers, etc. etc. would deliver results very quickly and could be applied very quickly.
    The USA is designed from the outset, scientifically designed to discourage any form of Mass Transit: dispersed suburbs, haphazard subdivisons, extremely long and wide living arrangments covering over a hundred kilometers, all the car trips are “point to point” with no common ground with the other car trips, etc.
    And most of all, a psychological conditioning against “walking in the suburbs”, as if it is a kind of “sin”, everything appears to be “too far”, it can’t be done, etc. Aside from the fact that if you even try to walk in any subdivision, be careful that suspicious people would be thinking that you are a “trouble maker”, “an alien”, etc.
    The internet itself is modeled on packet switching which is a kind of advanced transit system: a BUS system could be modeled on it, if researchers in the USA would decide to finally do some research for the “common good”.

  213. envirofrigginmental July 7, 2010 at 9:13 am #

    eightm… the answer is.. wait for it: HORSES.
    Yes. HORSES are going to make a come-back by-golley! We don’t need BUSES. We need HORSES; Lots of them. Nobody is thinking outside of the box anymore. How do you think people got around before motorized vehicles for thousands of years?
    HORSES are environmentally friendly, nice to own and useful after their working lives are over (eg. other products, including food).
    And guess what, the modern version of the stage coach and wagon will return as well. People will always need to move around. There are Mennonites all around where I live. They seems to survive quite fine. They look healthy and happy and even leave flowers out at the side of the road for us commuters to pick up on our way home. How civilized.
    Our modern technology, combined with previous technologly (HORSES) will create an interesting hybrid. IMHO, there’s a REAL hybrid, not these stupid things the current auto manufacturers are spitting out. What a joke! They’re the latest lame way to hoodwink the stunned public into continuing to buy more of their idiotic products. Profits baby, profits!

  214. messianicdruid July 7, 2010 at 9:32 am #

    Q – your efforts at keeping words concise are appreciated.

  215. theboosh July 7, 2010 at 11:12 am #

    Certainly wish you could articulate/define ‘unbounded multi-culturalism’ and your belief that there must somehow be ‘boundries’ in order for America to get on a better path. It seems such a disconnect from most of what I read and understand from you.

  216. progressorconserve July 7, 2010 at 11:48 am #

    I expect that I speak for most of the recurrent posters on this thread when I say, “So, eightm, do you think buses would be a good idea?”
    We are, however, glad you reposted your entire post three time just so we could be sure.
    LOL 😉 lol
    That was humor, above. I enjoy speaking in public and almost never start without some kind of little joke…ok, that one was microscopic.
    But humor and sarcasm do not seem to translate well on the open internet like this.
    I do not intend to offend, 8m. You are a utopian thinker…that is a noble thing! As I attempt to categorize lines of thought on CFN, you, 8m have become my proxy for this one.
    One of the GREAT advantages of having these threads organized in a linear fashion like this is that it “forces” everyone to consider the thoughts of others. If this blog were organized into categories you would be over there under “UTOPIAN IDEAS,” and I might never have “met” you.
    I’m new to this whole save-the-world-by-blogging thing…so apologies all around.
    And on this thread, this has lead me to think that if no one was commenting, no one was reading.
    Last night I realized that was untrue. So when I saw you “jumping up and down,” so to speak trying to get people to acknowledge your ideas I thought:
    “Freak on a leash, 8m, STFU about those infernal buses…we don’t need no stink’n buses….we need slogans…simple elegant slogans!!”
    And then I realized we were both overreaching. People see your ideas; they see mine. Neither of us would be putting them on public display if we did not think they were pretty close to perfect.
    I want my ideas critiqued, beaten up, improved, and hopefully used. And I have almost no investment in this “progresor” handle…yet.
    At this point particular apologies go out to q, against whom I may have been conducting an unintended vendetta “by proxy.”
    Anyway, moving on to your buses:
    They still need fuel to move.
    I ran a couple of rough numbers…and somebody check my math.
    Your buses will be heavy, with the luxury boxes, with a low passenger load for the same reason. So let’s say that a bus gets 5 mpg and carries a average passenger load of 20. Sometimes a lot more, but sometimes zero, right…average.
    And that gives us 100 passenger miles per gallon.
    (5mpg = 0.2 gallons/mile
    20 passengers / 0.2 gallons/mile = 100 PMPG)
    One doesn’t have to understand/do the calculations to trust them. I put them out there so someone could replicate them….and confirm or correct…like real science.
    And 100 passenger miles per gallon (PMPG) sounds pretty good, right.
    But what if I have a private vehicle that gets 35 mpg. That is 0.0286 gallons per mile. Now, if it always has a passenger/driver load of 4 that gives us PMPG of 139.9. Which is even better.
    And yeah, 4 people/vehicle is a dream right now…but I can have utopian thoughts, too.
    8m, you’ve got great ideas…and admirable persistence. But out in the sticks where I live, and in the ‘burbs where most of America lives….I’m thinking renewable fuels for transportation are going to be a necessary long-term solution.
    BTW, I think we need to examine “everyone’s” big city supplied by ship and train sustainable living models.
    Because right now if it is heavy and is moving in the US, it’s moving using DIESEL.
    sorry…can’t resist this one:
    Diesel is cheap because we steal it from the future without regard to cost!
    Life is good!

  217. progressorconserve July 7, 2010 at 1:14 pm #

    You have got to take a stand, man.
    It is fine if you want to be on the far left.
    And do not ask me what I mean by “left.” It is standard political terminology.
    In my mind, I picture you finding the political party with the greatest leftward inclination…and climbing out on the farthest left of their platform planks….and jerking and pulling it even further to the left….with all your strength…whether it is nailed down or not.
    Sometimes one has to commit heinous, tormenting torture on a metaphor to make a point…bear with me.
    But asoka, if you’re gonna be over there on the left on a peak oil blog, you need to stay put.
    You cannot come zinging all the way back over to the far right as in the following:
    ……and this makes a better point if read with the Whiny Voice of Limbaugh while picturing the Manicured Face of Hannity:
    “What is your understanding of peak oil? It is not a tipping point. It is simply the point at which production peaked, and it happened in 2005.
    Now we head down the other side of the bell curve, and that ride could last 47 years. Worldwide oil production in the year 2030 will be the same as it was in 1980.”
    47 years is an eye-blink of time, Sean.
    Drill, baby, drill, correct Rush…I mean asoka
    And I know…you believe in Nothing, everything is Sacred. Blah, blah

  218. Funzel July 7, 2010 at 1:34 pm #

    Yes Buses,excellent thought.Every county in the US has plenty of them.They are called school buses and are yellow.Instead of busing around your seventeen year old mental cripple to his front door,they should be employed efficiently on regular routes to be used for all the public with transfer points from county to county.Of course this would take planning,scheduling and discipline,which is lacking nationwide.It would even promote cooperation among all age groups to live together in peace,which is frowned upon by our troublemakers in government and finance.
    Even our post office service is being led to the slaughter house by the “privatization”gangsters.
    architect designed PO buildings are popping up all over,huge lit signs “United States Post office”are manufactured and displayed,usually with the zip code missing,(most people,even the slightly retarded know they are not walking into a Bangladesh Post office)wasting millions so these Privatization predators can eventually steal that public asset too,for 10 cent on the dollar.BTW all over Europe a yellow sign with a bugle on it is enough info to get to a post office.I am getting tired of having to put 44 cents on my utility bills to subsidize the junk mail.

  219. lbendet July 7, 2010 at 1:38 pm #

    The possibility of a real free market is not going to happen any more than a utopian communist state could ever be achieved. They look great on paper, but they don’t jive with human nature. That’s the bottom line. Remember, people always have their own agenda adn the more power you and money you have, the more you want.
    I remember reading a book of short stories by Solzhenitisyn called “We Never Make Mistakes” when I was in high school. It described a system that could not support human efforts to effectively make positive changes in people’s lives (as I recall from so long ago). The system was a sham that just got in the way of human endeavor.
    I’m afraid it doesn’t matter whether a country is a govt. soviet or corporate monopolies, it all leads to the same debacle and somehow things end up working without transparancy or freedom.–Unless of course one chooses to be perverse and think that freedom is denying all the issues that get in the way of continuing down the same unsustainable road.
    For those who believe in privatization only and say that the markets take care of themselves, one would think that BP would never do the kinds of fraud and cost-cutting it did to save a few bucks. But here we are.
    They didn’t do what was best for the company, ultimately and now there’s talk that another company may buy them up. If that happens how much compensation do you think the US will get?
    It looks to me that this government is bleeding money from every pore and is being starved of revenue in favor of the big corporations and banks, who don’t want to pay taxes. In fact they love the regressive idea of a flat tax. Imagine that!
    What could have been good new protections in finances and medical insurance look like they have been written by the very lobbyists we
    should be curtailing.
    Our legislative branch is too ADD to read and comprehend what laws they are passing so we are subject to unintended consequences, by those who want to join the lobbyist as soon as they leave office.
    In place of our checks and balances that keep the the playing field fair, we have only conflict of interest and dangerous conditions. Case in point. Check out the latest on the Gulf today.
    It’s far worse than you think.

  220. progressorconserve July 7, 2010 at 2:06 pm #

    Easy, man…no point in picking on a 17 year old with disabilities.
    Where I live the schools are HUGE…I’m talking 2000 plus/minus students.
    Few of them can walk to school…yeah, yeah, I know….poor planning…but we’re stuck with the system we’ve got right now.
    But 40 buses can bring in 2000 students in about 30 minutes.
    Even at 3 students/car (like that would happen) I don’t want to think about 666 extra cars every morning and every afternoon around every school. 2000/3=666.
    Plus, those 40 buses burn a lot of non-renewable diesel and cause a good bit of road and street damage because they are so heavy.
    and SNAFU…
    your question about foxholes and Atheists hit a nerve with me. I’m working on a response, but it may take a little time.
    Now I’ve to to get to work. Of course, work for me consists of telephoning people and pushing around pieces of paper for hours. But it still takes time.
    Got to sneak out the garden this evening and play with the veggies.
    Peace, y’all!

  221. Qshtik July 7, 2010 at 2:26 pm #

    I am getting tired of having to put 44 cents on my utility bills to subsidize the junk mail.
    Are you actually paying your bills by snail-mail or are you pulling my leg? Use on-line billpay – one of the greatest inventions since the wheel.
    But switching to the subject of the US Post Office itself … if ever there was a function that the government need NOT be involved in it’s the delivery of mail. Does the govt manufacture shoes? Do they shingle roofs (rooves?)? Do they sell laundry detergent? Then why in god’s name should they deliver mail? When you involve the govt in any business it is bound, over time, to become an inefficient boondoggle. (Listen up Asoka, Paul Krugman and other lovers of Big Government!)
    Get the govt out of the post office business, the public school business, the mortgage business and a thousand other businesses too numerous to mention here.
    Have Fed Ex, UPS and others compete. The price for sending junk mail to someone who chooses to live 50 miles outside BumbleFuck, Arkansas will go way up where it belongs. In fact it might just kill the whole annoying junk mail phenomenon.

  222. asoka July 7, 2010 at 2:35 pm #

    No, you have got to take a stand. First you asked me to PULLLEEEZZZEE talk about peak oil (using your grandchildren as the reason).
    So I talk about peak oil, give my perspective on it, and what do I get? A lecture on how “left” I am contradicted by saying I am parroting Limbaugh.
    Get a grip, man!
    All I did was ask you a simple question: what is your understanding of peak oil? No answer from you.
    Then you said you wanted to talk about solutions, so I gave you a solution and described two benefits flowing from it. I asked you if you would get on board with my plan to save the world. And you never answered.
    Maybe you don’t want to talk about saving the world either. Maybe the grandchildren are not that important after all. You just want to pigeonhole me and rudely dismiss my positions with a “blah blah blah”
    You say I don’t believe in anything.
    Scour the archives of CFN and see if you can find one time I have been pro-war, pro-population growth, pro-contaminating the environment, pro-death penalty, pro-Hummers, pro-McMansions, etc. etc.
    Scour the archives of CFN and see if you can find one time I was pro-slamming shut the borders (now that our great-grandparent immigrants got in and we have ours — we aren’t sharing with those brown people, especially the ones who don’t have proper papers).
    To say I don’t believe in anything is ridiculous. I do believe in the sacredness of life … and that’s it. From that golden rule flows all my policy and my choice of political platforms.
    Did you know one of the key core values of the Green Party is NONVIOLENCE? Can’t get that kind of commitment from Republicans or Democrats who, in the words of Kagan, “reveres” the military.
    The military is organized killing and it is killing civilians in our name. If the civilians are pregnant, the soldiers will take the time to dig the bullets out of the bodies (mother and unborn) to cover up their war crimes. The military, as usual, as they did with Tillman, will dishonorably lie about everything.
    You say I don’t believe in anything because I embrace all religions and none simultaneously. This must be disconcerting to you.
    Religious beliefs and Gods I can adopt and shed daily, including the days I feel like being agnostic and the days I feel like being atheist.
    Why should one have to stick to one religious belief, or any religious belief, all one’s life. Boring.
    I find good in all the religions, like the golden rule, “love your enemies” … and I also CHERRY PICK. Is that so terrible? If you think so, you are free to believe anything you want to believe and I will respect your choice of beliefs, though I will from time to time challenge the Gods or make fun of believing in an imaginary, mute, invisible God. But, hey, if it works for you, more power to you.

  223. Qshtik July 7, 2010 at 2:46 pm #

    Get the govt out of the post office business
    Prediction: Asoka will respond “Get the govt out of Iraq and Afganistan” to which I reply “yeah, that too.”

  224. Cash July 7, 2010 at 3:08 pm #

    Who said it was only Muslims that are always the bad guys? Let’s not be ridiculous.
    By all means feel free to demonize people that are inflicting suffering. Don’t be squeamish about it, fight injustice.
    Just to show you I have an open mind and crap on all sorts of people: right now in this country the head of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service (our CIA) set off a shitstorm by saying that Chinese intelligence services have corrupted Canadian politicians at a variety of levels.
    It’s no secret. It’s been brought up in the past that some people here work on behalf of the Butchers in Beijing and are involved in industrial espionage and other nefarious activities.
    Plus Canada has resources. China wants those resources. China is a huge and growing power. What the director of CSIS did by pointing the finger was render to us a valuable service. Anyone with half a brain would have suspected anyway that foreign powers were at work here including the Chinese but there are a great many people here of liberal bent. You need to knock on their foreheads once in a while and remind them that it’s not only white people that behave badly.
    Now, I know this doesn’t square with warm and fluffy multi-culti values but China is not Canada. Human rights, due process, rule of law? Ha! No chance. Maybe we can do business with China but China is not our friend and ally. China should be feared. Good for Mr Fadden.

  225. asoka July 7, 2010 at 3:09 pm #

    The list of countries was incomplete. We have USA military scattered everywhere wasting fossil fuel and raping and creating hatred.
    To the list I provided above you could add regions like the Indian Ocean territory of Diego Garcia, Gibraltar, and the Atlantic Ocean island of St. Helena, all still controlled by Great Britain, but not considered sovereign countries.
    Greenland is also home to U.S. troops, but is technically part of Denmark.
    Troops in two other regions, Kosovo and Hong Kong, might also be included here, but the DOD’s “Personnel Strengths” document includes U.S. troops in Kosovo under Serbia and U.S. troops in Hong Kong under China.
    Possessions of the United States like Guam, Johnston Atoll, Puerto Rico, the Trust Territory of the Pacific Islands, and the Virgin Islands are likewise home to U.S. troops. Guam has over 3,200.
    NO WONDER OUR ECONOMY IS COLLAPSING! How much longer can we spend over 40% of our discretionary budget on war and preparation for war?

  226. messianicdruid July 7, 2010 at 3:17 pm #

    “Then why in god’s name should they deliver mail?”
    It is part of their job description. Congress was to provide “post offices” and “post roads” to allow the free flow of information and goods among the people, according to the Constitution.
    When the Post Office was set aside, and the USPS took over, your corporate goobermint delegated mail delivery to one of it’s subsidiaries.
    The Act of Congress to raise the rate of postage for one ounce of First Class mail above six cents will not be forthcoming. The buildings you enter still say United States Post Office, but the service provided and the rates are decide by a private board of goveners of the United States Postal SERVICE. Different Beast.

  227. mean dovey cooledge July 7, 2010 at 3:21 pm #

    I just came back from my garden. Most of my big beautiful tomatoes had crow beak digs in them. The birds took a bite out of each one and moved on. Something also tasted -but decided against it, I suppose – my clarimore zucchini. This is my second year on the “long emergency” dress rehearsal and I give myself an F, or possibly with some grade inflation, a D. I left for only three days; without the dogs or me to walk out there several times a day, much went wrong; which speaks to your comment about the readiness or capability of the average american to feed themselves.
    This is my second year growing a food garden, and though there’s been a lot to celebrate, if I actually had to feed myself on what I grew and got from my chickens? I would now look like an Eastern European model for Prada.
    Look on the bright side – should your scenario of protecting squashes with firearms come to be, obesity probably won’t be the epidemic it is now.
    I did grow most of my plants from seed – the squash, beans, cucumbers and all the flowers. Some of my cherry tomatoes are from last years saved seeds and they are doing nicely (they are heirlooms). Since I am the only one who thinks there could be an LE in my family, I do all of this by myself and I will tell you it took hours and hours to do it as poorly as I did.
    Like I said, I wont win any survival awards, but I think its important to at least try and learn it now, instead of under extreme pressure.
    To everybody with the suggestions about the tomato hornworms: I go out and cut all worms in half with scissors, or feed them to the hens. I did grow carrots near my tomatoes, but they are over now. I’ll try the dill, though. thank you.
    You know, sometimes you just want to go DefCon 4 and break out the Sevin Dust -but I just cant do it. (I have a big praying mantis living in the cosmos)

  228. jerry July 7, 2010 at 3:37 pm #

    Nice dreaming!! Your Tea Party failed to address a Constitutional Amendment on reducing the length of stay on the Supreme Court, lobbyists, campaign contribution reform, and term limits.
    The reason we are in Iraq and Afghanistan is NOT for democracy, since Islamic fundyism is the rule of law there now and will not change. It is strictly about the military industrial stimulus package enriching corporate CEOs, and stockholders. It is about stimulating the war manufacturing and service sectors. That is all. Oil? Poppies? Maybe, but the oil ain’t coming from Iraq and the Afghani pipeline is not in the near future.
    In the meantime, your dreams come every night, and the economic train is slowing down to a stop at the Recession Station before it heads into reverse.

  229. Qshtik July 7, 2010 at 3:48 pm #

    Why do we need 702 military bases in 135 countries?
    Lemme guess.
    To extend our vast empire?
    To maintain our profligate lifestyle?
    To act as policeman to the world?
    To shove our Western/Hollywood culture down the throats of Muslims?
    To enlarge our carbon footprint?
    To engage in nation-building?
    To topple despots?
    To secure markets for worthless derivative financial products, Coca Cola and Kentucky Fried Chicken?
    To free women from the burka and get them into bikinis and thongs where they belong?
    I’m sure I must have missed something.
    As to rape of locals and even our own (female) soldiers … who else would they rape? They’re stuck with whatever’s available. If rape were a business it would be known as the second oldest profession.
    Asoka, when you get all outraged and do one of your monster downloads I can’t resist a smart-ass response.

  230. kirktim July 7, 2010 at 3:48 pm #

    Nicho – well said. Thanks.

  231. asoka July 7, 2010 at 3:57 pm #

    Mean Dovey Cooledge said: “This is my second year on the “long emergency” dress rehearsal and I give myself an F, or possibly with some grade inflation, a D.”
    I am practicing fasting, accustoming my body to go for periods without food.
    Fasting may be a valuable auxiliary skill to supplement gardening. Fasting is certainly cheap and will work during the Long Emergency … even if there is zero oil available.
    A good way to ease yourself into it is the free e-book, Fast-5 Life, which is basically to eat for five consecutive hours every day, and fast for 19 hours.
    The ability to fast could come in very handy when TSHTF and the grocery shelves are empty. Humans can live for weeks without food. Jesus did in the desert. Baha’is and Muslims observe their annual fast by refraining from eating or drinking from sunrise to sunset. Fast-5 Life is just a modern, 365-day-a-year version with a set 19 hours of fasting daily.
    But don’t give up on the garden! Whatever comes out of it will taste better after 19 hours of fasting!

  232. Cash July 7, 2010 at 4:05 pm #

    The military is raping the local women in other countries, creating hatred toward the USA. – asoka
    Get serious. You’re talking as if it’s official policy.
    Having said that, you are correct that your military will shrink big time. The future will tell us whether that will be a good thing or a bad thing wrt the level of warfare going on in the world. Don’t assume that because US bases close that peace will prevail.
    You might recall that there was a war (WW2) and a Cold War and that the Soviets were as busy as bees intervening militarily all over the world. They created a lot of havoc so feel free to crap on them also.
    You might also recall that Communism didn’t have much in the way of humanitarian impulses. You want to speak your mind? Maybe you’ll end up doing it it in a Siberian labour camp. If the Communists had won I shudder to think how we’d be living now.
    The French, who were always having bitchy little hissy fits during the Cold War, would have had it hardest I think. I think their fine wines and cheeses would have been an extreme rarity in France. They would have been shipped to the nomenklatura in Moscow, Leningrad and Stalingrad. No doubt the party bosses and their families would have been grateful. I wonder how depressed the French would have gotten subsisting like everyone else in the Soviet Empire on sausage, cabbage and potatoes every damned day.
    An anecdote about Siberian labour camps: in my hometown there was a guy from Poland who was an inmate in a Siberian camp during WW2 (you’ll no doubt recall that the Soviets invaded Poland in 1939 and divided it with Germany). He said that the camp had no walls or fences because it was so remote. The Soviet guards didn’t care if you tried to run. He said that some guys tried it and came back after a few days starved and frozen.

  233. messianicdruid July 7, 2010 at 4:16 pm #

    JHK: Wondering about the Economic Platform of your Party in comparison to:
    “When nations on earth refuse to recognize God as the Creator, their governments assume ownership of that which God has created. The Kingdom of God, on the other hand, recognizes God as the Creator, and so its government recognizes His ownership of all that He has created.”
    Specifically; Would you endorse/institute the Silver-Barley Standard?

  234. Cash July 7, 2010 at 4:31 pm #

    One other thing Asoka: the US military (along with others) evicted Nazi Germany from Western Europe. Not only that but their presence in the post WW2 era kept the Soviet army from rolling right across western Europe to the English Channel and south to the Mediterranean.
    So while fashionable lefties in Europe opposed the US presence on their home turf I would have liked to ask them maybe they’d prefer a Russian boot to an American one? Don’t mistake the Soviets for live and let live humanitarians concerned for your welfare.
    So while you and many people of your ilk shit on the US for their military presence in different parts of the world do be fair for a moment and put your hate for your own country aside and consider the wider historical circumstances. The Nazis were monstrous, the Soviets maybe worse and both were bent on world domination. In the post WW2 era nobody knew if Nazi-ism or Japanese militarism would make a resurgence. Nobody knew if war would flare up with the Soviets. That history hadn’t yet been written. Hence the US military presence.
    Yes, yes, you’re for peace I know. So am I. Who said (was it Trotsky?) you may not be interested in war but war is interested in you? I interpret that to mean that it doesn’t matter what you want, sometimes circumstances dictate what you get.

  235. asoka July 7, 2010 at 4:36 pm #

    MessianicDruid, is this your public declaration of support for the biblical institutionalization of slavery through the Silver-Barley Standard, as proclaimed in the Bible?
    “he should make full restitution; if he have nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft.” (Ex. 22:3 NIV)

  236. asoka July 7, 2010 at 4:48 pm #

    Cash said: “I interpret that to mean that it doesn’t matter what you want, sometimes circumstances dictate what you get.”
    Besides stating the obvious, something most of us learned by age 5 or earlier, what is your point?
    Have you read Victor Frankl’s 1946 book, Man’s Search for Meaning?
    War can certainly come to you, as it did to Victor Frankl. But you dictate your response to the circumstances in which you find yourself. Read the book, if you haven’t already. We always have a choice to respond nonviolently, constructively, lovingly, even in a Nazi concentration camp.

  237. asia July 7, 2010 at 5:01 pm #

    ‘asoka is wearing me out right now’….finally ‘it’ got to even you?
    way too much shoka love here…too many who are gulled into conversations with dog [or asoka as ‘it’ may be!]
    and its possible BP is paying him.
    any word on Lindsay lohan? streets are safer to drive in my town, for 90 days.

  238. asia July 7, 2010 at 5:05 pm #

    what has JHK wrought?

  239. asia July 7, 2010 at 5:06 pm #

    ‘Let’s not be ridiculous’
    to write this to ashok is indeed… being ridiculous.

  240. asia July 7, 2010 at 5:10 pm #

    ad nauseum

  241. asia July 7, 2010 at 5:15 pm #

    lordothe rings facist bigot!
    ‘Does everyone realize that we are still bringing in between 130,000 to 150,000 legal immigrants every month’
    5 million a year?
    400,000 anchor babies a year?

  242. asia July 7, 2010 at 5:29 pm #

    ‘I guess that whole Holocaust thingy was false and just made up by Liberal Hollywood Jews, right?’
    Now if you can get hollywood to make a movie about maos killing 70,000,000…richard gere hasnt even been able to get em to make one about the invasion of tibet.
    after that maybe one about stalin killing off 20,000,000 of his own.
    yet theres no shortage of ‘hollywood workin the holocaust’ films eh? and no liberal bias in the media, like no movie about fidel, cept the ones ollie stone makes or would like to!

  243. asia July 7, 2010 at 5:33 pm #

    ‘I can not deny it – Asoka has a gift and a talent for sprinkling around flattering pixie dust and sucking in the weak of mind’
    glad you do more than correct typos here!

  244. Cash July 7, 2010 at 5:35 pm #

    Maybe being ridiculous. Asoka is black so he’s bitter about what he’s seen and what he’s suffered and that’s fair enough. But still, Asoka’s way of thinking is really common if not dominant especially in this neck of the woods. It marks one as having a deep and sophisticated intellect never mind that IMO this approach has only a glancing familiarity with human nature, a grudging acknowledgement if not outright denial of historical fact, a deep reluctance to think well of your own countrymen and to give them the benefit of the doubt, an eagerness to take sides against your fellow citizens, an abhorrence of our own cultural heritage among other things that I cannot fathom. It just seems to me to be fundamentally unfair and unbalanced ie why are WE always painted as the bad guys and why are not other people given their fair share of responsibility for the world’s ills? Are they not adults too? I could go on but I think you know where I’m coming from. So wherever I see Asokas I argue. I don’t want them to think their way gets a free pass. They get my side ie how I see reality.

  245. Qshtik July 7, 2010 at 5:53 pm #

    I promised myself that I would not acknowledge Progressorconserve by name but I must or my brain or some other organ will explode.
    When I first read a Prog post, aside from assuming he was a she (which I would have bet money on right up till he mentioned his wife), the first thing that came to mind was a four-quadrant personality test. We’ve all taken them. Here’s one I copied off the internet:
    Personality Categories
    The method used by most management training workshops and employers is the ever-popular Merrill-Reid method, which categorizes personality types into:
    Characteristics of Personality Categories
    ?Know what they want and how to get there!
    ?Communicates quickly, gets to the point
    ?Sometimes tactless and brusque
    ?Can be an “ends justify the means” type of person
    ?Hardworking, high energy. Does not shy away from conflict
    ?Natural salesmen or story-tellers
    ?Warm and enthusiastic
    ?Good motivators, communicators
    ?Can be competitive
    ?Can tend to exaggerate, leave out facts and details
    ?Sometimes would rather talk about things than do them!
    ?Kind-hearted people who avoid conflict
    ?Can blend into any situation well
    ?Can appear wishy-washy Has difficulty with firm decisions
    ?Often loves art, music and poetry Highly sensitive
    ?Can be quiet and soft-spoken
    ?Highly detail oriented people
    ?Can have a difficult time making decisions without ALL the facts
    ?Make great accountants and engineers
    ?Tend to be highly critical people
    ?Can tend to be pessimistic in nature
    ?Very perceptive
    No one personality type outshines the other or is preferable to the other – but all complement each other in different ways. If you are choosing a team for a difficult task, it is a good idea to have representation for each on your team for a balanced approach to the task at hand.
    Obviously, I’m an ANALYTICAL and Prog is an AMIABLE. Amiable’s can tolerate, in fact even cozy up to, any of the other three personalities but Analyticals, basically, can’t tolerate anything or anybody, especially Amiables.
    The (above) characteristics of Amiable are woefully incomplete. The following additional adjectives came to mind: pussy, whussy, sissy, weak, shy, fearful, insipid, effeminate, whimpy and mamby-pamby. (There’s a Geico commercial running where the therapist says “Maybe we should chug on over to mamby-pamby land where maybe we can find some confidence for you, you jackwagon.” There’s also this humorous description: “If you’re a male, and you can cross your legs fully, with the top leg hanging loosely and comfortably across the other knee, then you’re probably a mamby-pamby, doo-gooder liberal.”
    These characteristics show themselves throughout Prog’s writings as in this sentence: “At this point particular apologies go out to q, against whom I may have been conducting an unintended vendetta “by proxy.” (Prog, a suggestion … if you have testicles, act like a man and I’ll be your friend.)
    And about your slogans: Lame. So VERY lame. Either give up or hire a pro … maybe find that guy who wrote the famous line for the NY Daily News: “Ford to NYC – Drop Dead.”
    And finally, it is not necessary for you to tell us to “have a nice day” or that “Life is good” or that you need to go to bed so “Good night” or “tend your veggies” or endlessly express your good wishes as in “Peace, y’all.” The desperate need for love, attention and validation is palpable. Try to make it less obvious. The way you’re going, Asoka’s seven month streak is over for the Annoying Award.

  246. Cash July 7, 2010 at 6:06 pm #

    I can’t explain my point any better than I just did so let’s just let it pass.
    Yes, you are entirely right, you can dictate your response to the circumstances you find yourself in.
    Mostly I think that in the countries that we live in we get to live our lives as we see fit, a Nazi/Fascist/Soviet-like prison gulag is at present a remote likelihood, we do not have an authoritarian regime with secret informants that threaten us, that monitor our every utterance, that watch our every move, that requires us to get permission to change residence, change jobs, move to other parts of the country or to move out of the country altogether. You are entirely entitled to your opinion and to state it without fear of official/government retribution. Actually that’s not entirely true here in Canada for reasons we’ve already discussed. But mostly I think it is.
    I would argue that’s entirely the point of the US military, and others, that you condemn. You say they make the world unsafe, I disagree, I say they do and they did make the world safe. If not for them we’d both be living with our faces under a fascist boot, be it Nazi or Communist, and we wouldn’t be having this discussion.
    We can choose to respond nonviolently to extreme circumstances, that’s our choice and we and our descendants would live with the consequences.

  247. Hancock1863 July 7, 2010 at 6:06 pm #

    Hi, asia 🙂
    I happen to agree with you on immigration. The boat is full, as is the entire Earth. Given America’s founding on immigration – I bet the Native Americans regret their initial “liberal” immigration policies to no end 😉 – it is an unpleasant reality but a reality nonetheless that has to be dealt with.
    The question is what to do about it, especially since it’s been a bipartisan effort between Cheap Labor Republicans and unrealistic “open borders” Democrats that has created the situation.
    I do question your numbers. You might want to look it up and confirm it, so you can make your points with confirmed, solid numbers. The math doesn’t make sense. 5 million/year times 10 years = 50 million. Add to that the 12 million estimated illegals in 2000 and that’s 62 million illegals.
    I haven’t looked it up either, but 1 in 5 Americans being illegals seems a bit high of a ratio to me.
    Even if Cheap Labor Republicans and Open Borders Democrats had the will to do something about it, which they don’t, how exactly would you implement the forcible removal of 20 million people or more?
    Remember that INS raid on that Iowa meat packing plant a year or so ago? Turned the local economy upside-down, disrupted the town, and generally freaked the locals out.
    That was 400 or so illegals. We’d be talking about at least 50,000 times that. Then what? Relocation Camps? Prison? What happens to the stability of Mexico upon the relatively rapid re-addition of 20 million or more people? Is it not in our best interests as a nation that Mexico remain relatively stable as a political entity?
    It’s easy to wave a magic wand and decide to forcibly move 20 million people. The reality is quite different.
    I offer no answers as of yet, but I do agree with you that there is a problem.
    Finally, don’t hate me becuase I enjoy Lord of the Rings and don’t like to see it soiled as the rallying flag of Racist Fascists. 😛
    It is also important to note that, just like Communists, Fascist doctrine explicitly emphasizes and condones lying to “the inferiors” as acceptable and beneficial in furthering Party Goals.
    The slick trick of both Fascism and Communism is the implied promise that YOU will be in the Inner Circle of Superiors who will laughingly lie to and exploit the Inferiors for fun and profit.
    But you won’t be. It’s just another lie meant to sucker people in.
    “How fortunate for leaders that men do not think.”
    –Adolf Hitler
    Prove ol’ Adolf wrong and please think about it.
    “Arise ye Men of the West!” Why? ‘Cause it’s breakfast time, of course! (woob woob woob!)

  248. asia July 7, 2010 at 6:41 pm #

    ‘I do question your numbers’
    OK! however ..1965..200 million
    2000..300 million…and growing
    see frosty wooldridge ‘ the next 100 million’
    the figures i read are like 400,000 ancor babies a year!
    1 in 3 or 4 haitians already here! [or as JHK asked; whats the point of food aid to haiti?]
    we are adding a million or 2 or 3 or more immigrants a year…. TO A COLLAPSING ECONOMY!!!!
    also by immigrants i mean those that move here or their first born / foriegn language, no interest in assimilating kids. in LA ive seen 3 generation families that are mexico identified.ther may be 4 or 5 generation families here that are ‘mexican’
    the LATimes tried to put a happy face on this when Mexico made dual citizenship possible; ‘ they wait in line to get their mexican citizenship, but they have never been there. ‘ i am mexican, just io was born here’
    i see it as Mexicos work at destabilizing the US Govt.

  249. asia July 7, 2010 at 6:43 pm #

    ‘I haven’t looked it up either, but 1 in 5 Americans being illegals seems a bit high of a ratio to me’
    1 in 3, [will be 1 in 2] is post 1965. non euro/ non english speaking identified.
    i dont care how many willie nelsons, anastasias and ozamotlys dislike arizonas new law!!!!!!
    i agree with JHK, dont ask if the hamptons will burn ask when!

  250. progressorconserve July 7, 2010 at 6:55 pm #

    Funny stuff, dude.
    This is my first experience on a blog and comment thread like this. But I had been looking around the internet for a while before finding CFN. And as I mentioned I “lurked” for a month or two. I lurk quite a bit…to me that is an “analytical” characteristic.
    And perhaps you missed the fact that I have background in the sciences.
    Is that any better, Q?
    My personality types in order would be Analytical, Expressive, Driver, Amiable.
    Actually, I am a little bit sensitive about my spelling and grammar. Maybe that’s why I tried to say “hello,” to you in a friendly way before “trouble” started.
    And I know something about leading men and women.
    I’m trying to build a consensus, here, as I’ve mentioned. Maybe I come across nicer in person than I do in print?
    And harness the power of the group mind on CFN….yeah, blah, blah…I’m starting to think this is like some meetings I’ve attended….everybody wants to talk…nobody wants to listen.
    And your post really is funny. I doubt you would say much of it to me in person, but it’s funny nevertheless.
    Except for this one part:
    The (above) characteristics of Amiable are woefully incomplete. The following additional adjectives came to mind: pussy, whussy, sissy, weak, shy, fearful, insipid, effeminate, whimpy and mamby-pamby.
    Someone is letting his insecurities show through, eh, Mr. Q?
    Are you worried about YOUR inner amiable?
    Anyway, in the words of Forest Gump, “Have a nice day!”
    PS I was gonna let this drop, but you need to apologize to femme.
    PPS Seriously, somebody check the math!
    PPPS To cowswithguns….regarding an issue from earlier in the week. Patience, I’ve got this. You can back me up if you’re interested.

  251. lpat July 7, 2010 at 7:08 pm #

    Libertarianism: a mind is a terrible thing to waste.
    Damn you’re a sharp, well-informed, literate rascal! Fortunately the ideological claptrap about markets and collectivism seems to blur your wide-ranging perception only in relatively isolated areas.

  252. asoka July 7, 2010 at 7:37 pm #

    Cash asks: “…why are not other people given their fair share of responsibility for the world’s ills? Are they not adults too?”
    Waaahhh! He attacked me first!
    Waaahh! I had to defend myself!
    Waaahh! A pre-emptive strike was needed!
    Waaahhh! They can’t be allowed to go nuclear!
    Waaahhh! Those terrorists (communists, etc.) are mean people!
    Waahhh! More money for defense or you will die!
    Countries act like adults?

  253. asoka July 7, 2010 at 7:54 pm #

    And, yes, I am old enough to have seen plenty of examples of communists, socialists, and fascists behaving badly … you know, like pounding a podium with a shoe saying “we will bury you”
    I can and have frequently condemned their behavior, but they don’t act in my name or with my consent. When I paid taxes and voted I became co-conspirator with the politicians who are acting badly.
    And your depiction of communist countries with no free press does not mean people cannot communicate … they just do it through other means, like the samizdat movement in the Soviet Union.
    And, finally (you have hinted at it) in the so-called democracy, the United States, a black man could be lynched or castrated for exercising free speech not that long ago and those involved were on government payrolls.
    For some of us it has been a LONG EMERGENCY … since before 1862 … and after.

  254. Paul July 7, 2010 at 8:20 pm #

    Qshtik – To reply to your comment, as much as I admire the idea of “natural” rights, I guess I don’t believe there actually are “natural” (that is, God-given) rights, other than the right to eat, breathe, sweat, defecate, etc.
    Every other right is man-made, and is subject to interpretation depending on time and place. Thomas Jefferson admirably declared that we (men) are entitled to the inalienable right of “liberty” – yet this guy had human slaves!
    I love the idea of the rights to “life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness”, but let’s not get carried away with how pure and noble and natural these rights are. In my view – the true source of our fragile so-called “natural” rights is not God or Nature, it is Law and Community.

  255. ozone July 7, 2010 at 8:58 pm #

    To Hancock1863:
    Yeah, baby!
    What you’ve been saying well, has now been said even better by the Mighty Joe B.!
    Joe takes a Thompson-gun to the paper “economy”.
    “The real problems are debt and fraud, and tripling the debt in order to cover up the fraud.”
    That’s the very tamest quote I could find.
    (JHK gets a good mention as well.)
    Is it denial, or is it dumb-fuckitude? It’s not nice to torture Mother Nature…

  256. ozone July 7, 2010 at 9:01 pm #

    Or here, if you prefer:

  257. SNAFU July 7, 2010 at 9:48 pm #

    “And SNAFU, I’ve got a couple of things about Atheists in foxholes.”
    I awaited with bated breath your answer but gave up and resumed respiratory function after a moment. In actuality I care not about atheists in foxholes; however, I would desire an answer to my inquiry as to your utilization of such during participation in a wartime firefight so as to ascertain the validity, or not, of your credentials to speak to the absence, or not, of atheists in foxholes.
    If your desire is a tête à tête concerning the existence, or not, of god, I’m your man; however, I have doubts that the rest of CFNers will be interested.
    Multiplicative “or nots” purposeful for Qshtik’s benefit.

  258. ozone July 7, 2010 at 10:02 pm #

    I believe it was progressorconserve who is going to attempt to “bring you into the fold”, but it’s neither here nor there.
    I have a term for those who feel they can petition invisible ghosts with prayer (supplication): victim.
    Certainly my opinion alone.

  259. Hancock1863 July 7, 2010 at 10:04 pm #

    Yep, Bageant knows his stuff, alright.
    He comes at it from the perspective of the “Redneck Socialist”, which certainly is a fascinating combination and a wholly unique perspective.
    As I have been saying, I have begun to wonder if there is ANY system human beings can develop to live under that doesn’t eventually degenerate to the brute simple statement, “The Powerful dominate the Weak.”
    Socialism included. It is also a near-universal human characteristic that we are generally excellent at analyzing the faults and flaws of others, while simultaneously being unable to analyze or even SEE our own faults and flaws. This goes for systemic critiques, as well.
    Socialists are good at critiquing the flaws of Capitalism and Capitalists are good at critiquing the flaws of Socialism, which makes Joe’s work that much more poignant because he is not only a Socialist in a society defined by Capitalism run amok, but he has lived in and understands better than most the people who will define our future when they move on to the next stage in The Quest For Corn-Pone Hitler to “wield the whip and knock us back into shape”.
    Believe you me, I am not any happier about it than you, but the trends are all pointing towards that or something like it within the next 50 years as TLE takes hold in uneven stages. (probably much sooner)
    Yes, more and more people are waking up, but I fear that, as always lately, advertising, marketing, PR, and behavioral/statistical psychology will always be one step ahead, so powerful and detailed now is their understanding of what makes all of us tick and manipulates us so easily. So concentrated is the stolen fraudulent wealth that enables the Aristocracy to purchase and manipulate the flow of information, not to mention increasingly weak and servile National Governments.
    It’s a Nuclear Bomb for the Mind, delivered by more concentrated wealth than has ever existed previously and since it leaves no fallout or visible scars, save a people completely disconnected from reality like few others in human history, the Aristocracy has no compunction or problem in using it on us over and over and over again.
    I’d like to be wrong, but I am reminded of an old sci-fi movie (can’t remember which). The alien ship of Bad Guys has been shattered, beaten. We sit and listen as the frightened First Officer lists the impossibly long list of damages as their ship falls into a gravity well.
    “What do we do?” squeaks the First Officer.
    “We die,” replies the Commander stoically. Then the ship blows up.
    Unfortunately, the population keyhole and/or extinction that likely lies in wait for the human species will not be so swift nor so devoid of suffering before the end as that ship in the movie.
    Thanks for the links.

  260. Vlad Krandz July 7, 2010 at 10:20 pm #

    You poor feral fool, do you really think that I believe anything you say? I merely use you as my foil, as an instrument of communication. Now in written communication, one sometimes adopts the “voice” of one of the characters. That’s what I did with the psychopathic business class – I loathe them just as much as I loathe Communists and Anarchists like you.
    So now in your “learned” opinion, who did pull of the Russian Revolution? Russian Peasants with pitchforks? And who paid for it, the Daughter’s of the American Revolution? Your naivete is charming in its own way but ultimately, ridiculous. The only people who could have done it are the Jews, and they are the ones who did in fact, carry it out and finance it. Get an education will ya?
    Oh and now you’re a big patriot too. So you must know that America was founded by Whites and for Whites. The Founding Fathers would have been appalled at your multi this and rainbow that. They specified it was for them and their progeny.
    Like all college pukes, you love to talk all the live long day about rights, but nary a word about duties. And you call this freedom. As if such a thing were possible, like a stick with only one end. You are a follower of Saruman the many colored. As Gandalf wisely remonstrated, a thing many colored is no longer White and Pure. A Rainbow Nation has no idea who it is and where it’s going – and neither do you. Such a Nation is doomed and it’s days are numbered shortly.

  261. Vlad Krandz July 7, 2010 at 10:44 pm #

    Right on Eight Mile. As Freud said, Civilization depends on repression of Eros. When repression fails, decadence sets in. Women don’t want to do their duty even to the extent of having a lousy 2.1 kids. Such a Civiilization is then easy prey for virile barbarians who control their eros and their women – like the Muslims or even the Mexicans. Being taken over by them is truly embarrasing, but they are doing it! The greatest bomb of all is the baby bomb.
    Repression itself, if not carried to far, can actually serve Eros. The tease is far sexier than a bare naked body – and let’s face, most people don’t look that good even when they’re young, never mind after. That’s why women are always in love with illusion: cosmetics, clothes, new fashion, jewelry etc. And not just decadent women – women in all cultures, including the healthy and the primitive.
    Female subordination – it seems to be the natural order of things. As C.S Lewis said, submission is an erotic necessity. And women love strong men whom they try to tame and hope they can’t. And they despise weak yes men whom they dominate. And of course, they despise bullies who abuse women and any weaker people. This is healthy of course.
    And gays must cease to be any kind of model and must go back to their own places. They shouldn’t be harassed however – which did use to happen. Their sexuality is merely personal and does not serve society. And they have no right to try and influence young teens who are vulnerable and uncertain of their identity.
    I’m not a Traditionalist, but a Neo-Traditionalist. I don’t pretend that the old ways were always good, just that they are a hell of alot better than most of the new ways. In particular the rate of reproduction is something that people can’t seem to get right. People can’t keep having huge number of kids. So modern liberals hear this and decide not to have any at all! This just leaves the door open for Traditionals from other cultures to waltz into the Labor/Social Security vacuum created – and have even more kids than our Traditionals have.

  262. Qshtik July 7, 2010 at 10:51 pm #

    Multiplicative “or nots” purposeful for Qshtik’s benefit.
    I actually stank* at grammar (maybe a C student) so I mainly go by ear which tells me each “or not” you used added clarity while one you might have used – after “interested.” – would have sounded “funny” and, in any case, would have violated a Strunk and White dictum that a sentence should contain no unnecessary words. So, to sum up, I’m “down with” your “or nots.”
    * Asoka would say: “and still do.”

  263. envirofrigginmental July 7, 2010 at 11:08 pm #

    Quote from Qshtik to Progressorconserve:
    “Obviously, I’m an ANALYTICAL and Prog is an AMIABLE.” This was followed by a number of thesaurus insults.
    Progressor, Q insults people to make himself feel superior. It’s his way of attempting to shut people down who he deems inferior. I seem to be one of them. He wants to play word games, instead of discussing what he’s doing to minimize his footprint on the planet. I likened the volumes of oil spewing into the Gulf to the gasoline one uses in a lifetime, and he turns around and has the audacity to insult me. He is unconscious and deserves our sympathy.
    I might actually agree with some of his posits, if he focussed more on PO, TLE and environmental degradation, as he appears to be quite intelligent. Undoubtedly he has exquisite grammatical and spelling skills, and they would be appreciated, if they were offered benevolently.
    But personally I don’t care if my grammar is “proper” and that I’ve vetted my post with a spell check, as long as I can express my point. I’m not seeking 4 gold stars. Nor do I think anyone else on this running open forum should feel ‘watched’. Healthy debate is fantastic amongst people of all stripes. But elitism and comment-nannies are unbecoming.
    PS. He spelled ‘shed’ wrong last week but I was the only one who caught it. Not to rub anything in.

  264. Vlad Krandz July 7, 2010 at 11:10 pm #

    Your’s is the United Nations model of Rights. They have a long, wonderful list of “rights” in “The International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights”. But they then qualify them all by stating: “The above mentioned rights shall not be subject to any restrictions except those which are provided by law, are necessary to protect national security, public order, public health or morals or the rights and freedoms of others, and are consistent with the other rights recongnized in the present Covenant.” In other words, such rights can be rescinded at anytime. Such alienable rights are no rights at all, but merely slave privledges.
    Such a system is radically inferior to the American Constitution which says that our rights are not alienable because given by God. Now obviously our rights can be hindered, but then the hinderer is recongnized as a Tyrant and an enemy of both God and the Citizen. And of course, such rights engender great responsibilities. For what the people fail to do for themsevles must and will be taken up by the State with subsequent loss of freedom. As I said to Hancock, the fact that one only hears about rights and never responsibilities, shows the fatuous nature of our “democracy” for at least the last hundred years. And it’s gotten steadily worse with each passing decade. What little social conscience that’s left devotes itself to other places like Africa and to trying to get as many third worlders into America as possible. Insane. Or as the St Paul puts it, “profitless works of darkness”.

  265. Qshtik July 7, 2010 at 11:24 pm #

    young teens who are vulnerable and uncertain of their identity.
    Except for a rare few individuals, I don’t believe sexual preference is a lifestyle “choice.”

  266. Hancock1863 July 7, 2010 at 11:40 pm #

    That’s OK, Vlad. I understand that you assume others you meet with are as vile, loathesome and dishonest as yourself. What else could you think?
    You’re wrong, though. Not everyone is like you. Thank God.
    Still pushing the idea that I’m a Communist or an Anarchist? I have to admire the persistence of stupid.
    See, dummy, you know so very little, but you think you know it all. So typical of the RW Authoritarian bullet-head. I do enjoy your patronizing “ha – ha you fool -I’m above it all” tactic, like a dumb comic book villain. Amusing, but not very effective on people above the age of 12.
    As for the idea that I am a young man of college age, wrong again! Don’t you ever get tired of being wrong?
    I NOTICE you still refuse to say who funded the American Revolution, in your opinion.
    By the way, you piece of human garbage, some of us actually do research on things called facts and history. We don’t just make shit up, like you.
    Not only am I in my 40s, I am also a veteran. How ’bout you? I thought not. You don’t have the guts or the balls, limp-dick. You wouldn’t know the meaning of the word “duty”.
    Oh, and here’s a comment from that notorious liberal and servant of Sauron (you and your creepy fetish!), George Washington:
    “As Mankind becomes more liberal, they will be more apt to allow that all those who conduct themselves as worthy members of the community are equally entitled to the protections of civil government. I hope ever to see America among the foremost nations of justice and liberality.”
    How come he didn’t say “all white people”?
    Sounds like old Washington must have been a Secret Freemason Jew, eh? “ALL those who conduct themselves…”, Vlad?
    See how easy it is to debunk your bullshit with just the tiniest bit of ACTUAL KNOWLEDGE?
    I could pile example upon example on top of that one, but what would be the point? Unlike you, I have actually read the Founding Fathers in their own words. Got a nice new 6 volume leatherbound set a few years ago for $120. Unbelievable that such would be priced so cheaply, but that isn’t surprising. Not as much demand for it as the kind of books you read like, “Michael Savage Tells You What To Think and Calls You an Idiot, Too”.
    I know you’ve praised the filthy coward Savage in the past, even though he hid in Hawaii picking flowers during Vietnam. A coward just like you. Look it up.
    Did you know he is Jewish? Yup. Look it up. His REAL name is Michael Weiner. I savor that irony that not only do you suckle at the teat of a Jew, but a coward, too. A coward just like you, so I understand the attraction, even though he is Jewish.
    By the way, where exactly, did the Founders specify the USA was ONLY for them and their progeny? Please provide some non-Stormfront proof/links, please. But I’m used to you not answering simple questions. What else can you do when you are just making shit up as you go along?
    Just for laughs, here’s another quote from our Secret Jew Founding Fathers, from the 1797 Treaty of Tripoli, signed by John Adams, among others, that Secret Jew:
    “Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.”
    Servants of Sauron all, weren’t they? (snicker)
    I know your dirty little secrets. That you despise the Communists because you are so much like them and are chasing after the same small pool of gullible fools and Authoritarian Followers.
    I also know, that if you actually KNEW what the Founding Fathers said, you would despise them, if you don’t secretly despise them already. But you can’t say that in public because that would be tipping your hand as to JUST how loathesome you really are. Same as you probably don’t DARE talk shit to Blacks in real life because you’d get your cowardly ass handed to you.
    This has been fun, countering your bullshit with a straight dose of honesty and truth.
    But now I’m done with you. As the old saying goes, “Don’t wrestle with a pig. You just get dirty and the pig likes it.”
    You may now resume trolling for weak minds to exploit.

  267. Hancock1863 July 7, 2010 at 11:57 pm #

    Great post! Well said and well thought out.

    The possibility of a real free market is not going to happen any more than a utopian communist state could ever be achieved. They look great on paper, but they don’t jive with human nature.

    That’s the truth no one looks at, that most simply cannot look at, because of the extraoridnary psychological power of human denial. This undoubtedly served some evolutionary purpose long ago, worrying too much about abstract forward-thinking things 20,000 years ago probably led to getting eaten by a sabre-tooth tiger, so evolution seems to have selected heavily against it.
    But where does that leave us? Capitalism doesn’t work, because eventually the Powerful prey unmercifully on the Weak. Communism doesn’t work because, using a different economic justification, eventually the Powerful prey unmercifully on the Weak.
    Fascism? The only thing more vile and hypocritical than a Corporatist Asshole is a Communist Asshole. The only thing more vile and hypocritical than a Communist Asshole is a Fascist Asshole. Both Communists and Fascists create pretty much the same “folksy workers’ paradise” as evidenced by Stalin’s Russia and Hitler’s Germany, so very alike.
    Who wouldn’t want to live in THOSE places? (chuckle)
    Besides, fascism is predicated on the idea that the Powerful SHOULD prey on the Weak as their birthright. At least the other two philosophies pretend to want something better and occasionally, briefly, deliver on it.
    Is it so much to ask that a system could be created whereby people who work hard and follow the rules can live a decent life without being preyed on by the Powerful? Or that the Powerful would be satisfied with a larger than average piece of the pie but DIDN’T always wind up taking everything and reducing most everyone else to Virtual Peonage, as happened all throughout history, and more recently in the USA in the late 19th and 20th Centuries, now continuing on towards terminal meltdown in the 21st, be it on a fast or slow timetable.
    If 6000 years of recorded human history is any judge, yes, it is too much to ask.
    I remain committed to the idea that the USA’s Founding Documents, for all their faults and flaws, yet also all their checks, balances, and understanding of human nature, are the single greatest tool to achieve this, if such is possible. Not perfect, but creating a framework in which perfection (which can never truly be reached) can always be strived for and approached ever closer.
    Sadly, even with this roadmap to a better world, these Founding Documents, in hand, the USA is succumbing to the same symptoms you laid out in your post.
    And all of that against the backdrop of Peak Oil, which is really Peak Economy. And THAT means the true nature of the bullshit can’t hide much longer.
    Perhaps it is not so much the systems themselves as much as it those who populate those systems.
    We have to accept at least the possibility that humanity is an evolutionary dead-end. Even that can’t be certain. Humanity is obviously heading for a “population keyhole” that may number in the millions or even the thousands. Maybe we won’t go extinct, but will what comes after be substantially different or better than the comical charnel house that is the last 6000 years of human history?
    And if it is no different, then how is it possible for our species to survive for even another geologic eyeblink, let alone travel to the stars or evolve further?
    “The fault, dear Cassius, lies not in our stars, but in ourselves…”
    –Brutus in Shakespeare’s “Julius Caesar”

  268. Qshtik July 8, 2010 at 12:06 am #

    Prog’s response to my insults should have been something like “Me and my 10-inch dick (soft) say fuck you Qshtik and the horse you road in on.” but, no, that’s not his style. It tells me none of us can help which personality quadrant we wind up in.
    Your problem is in not knowing when a break from the oil disaster gloom is called for. It was nice, for example, two days ago, with the temperature near 100, to float around in a backyard pool with friends and without the spill having ever been mentioned.

  269. SNAFU July 8, 2010 at 12:07 am #

    Correct you are.
    My apologies.
    I await your attempt to “bring me into the fold”.

  270. asoka July 8, 2010 at 12:09 am #

    Here is something everyone can do to respond to the abusive practices of big banks.
    By moving your money from the big banks into community banks and credit unions you are both supporting yourself and your family, and you’re also supporting your community.

  271. SNAFU July 8, 2010 at 12:09 am #

    I removed the aforementioned “or not” just prior to hitting “submit”. One atta boy for you.

  272. asoka July 8, 2010 at 12:11 am #

    “Asoka, My apologies.”
    No problem, it has happened to me at times also, especially with blurry eyes late in the night.

  273. Hancock1863 July 8, 2010 at 12:26 am #

    Don’t know how I missed this post of yours.
    You said:

    Now if you can get hollywood to make a movie about maos killing 70,000,000…richard gere hasnt even been able to get em to make one about the invasion of tibet.
    after that maybe one about stalin killing off 20,000,000 of his own.
    yet theres no shortage of ‘hollywood workin the holocaust’ films eh?

    Having read this blog and your posts for more than two years now, I don’t doubt there’s a whole lot of things we disagree on, probably more than we agree on.
    But when you make a valid point, you make a valid point. Damned straight those movies need to be made! I have no explanation as to why they haven’t been made, but they should.
    Now, I don’t buy that whole “Jews control Hollywood” thing anymore than I buy the idea that Jews are behind all the wars and all that “Elders of Zion” crap. But it can’t be denied that Hollywood has an influential Jewish presence, as well as an influential Chistian presence.
    Which explains the many Holocaust movies. And the many Christian-themed movies. I suppose the experiment to be performed (which can’t be performed, it can only happen if it happens) would be if the Chinese and Russians also had influential group representation in Hollywood and THEN the absence of these movies would be more conspicuous and more suspicious.
    Bottom line: I’d pay to see a “Schindler’s List” or “Sophie’s Choice” type movie about Mao’s and Stalin’s victims and yes, they should be made.
    Of course, I think Hollywood DID make “The Killing Fields” about Pol Pot and his Happy Asshole Commie Murderers.
    I would also venture to guess that no one wants to piss off China right now, since they hold a large chunk of our IOUs, and manufacture much of our cheap consumer crap.
    Whew! Been a long day. For two years I read this blog in silence, now you can’t shut me up!

  274. Vision Cube July 8, 2010 at 12:49 am #

    Perhaps it was a month or so ago, when a poster invoked the fighting spirit of those southern O’s and McC’s–the “Scot- Irish”. And now JKH does the same thing. In fact, history punctures this Dixie exaggeration:
    “Stout fighters to establish the nation, the Scotch-Irish proved equally valiant in preserving it from dissolution 85 years later. In the Civil War they were predominantly loyal to the Union wherever they lived. Horace Kephart (“Our Southern Highlanders”) says that the Appalachian mountain area sent 180,000 riflemen into the Union armies.
    John Fox, Jr., the Kentucky novelists, described the Southern highlanders of Scotch-Irish descent as “a long, lean, powerful arm of the Union, stretched through the very vitals” of the Confederacy.
    These were the men who saved Kentucky from joining the South, “seceded from secession” by splitting off the western mountain counties of Virginia into a free state, and in cooperation with the German element in St. Louis, held Missouri for the old flag. They formed a united and unconquerable Federal island in East Tennessee. They were the main Union strength in Western Maryland.
    John Fiske relates an incident in his “Mississippi Valley in the Civil War” illustrative of the loyalty of these “Yankees of the South.”
    When two of Foote’s gunboats ascended the Tennessee River into Northern Alabama they found in some places the shores crowded with people loudly cheering their arrival and throwing up their hats with glee at siqht of the Union flaq.
    When we remember that the rural South was more warlike than the industrial North, and that for more than two years the war in the East, with Confederate generalship of a high order, went uniformly against the Union, it seems that these highlanders in the Union Army, together with the westerners, decided the issue in the end. Grant’s army at Shiloh and Vicksburg and Sherman’s army in the drive on Atlanta were largely composed of these western and mountain men. Speaking of Sherman’s legions, his great adversary, General Joe Johnston, said: “I made up my mind that there had been no such army since Julius Caesar’s time.”

  275. Qshtik July 8, 2010 at 12:57 am #

    Here is something everyone can do …
    Back to this again huh? What do you do, go back periodically and copy and print your old posts verbatim?
    And BTW, has New Mexico pulled their money out of BofA or am I less than 6 months from winning that bet?

  276. progressorconserve July 8, 2010 at 1:12 am #

    Ok, Enviro
    Your points are noted.
    I was surprised to see that a tiny little flame war has apparently broken out between Mr. Q and me.
    What this has to do with peak oil, I do not know.
    And I can’t imagine someone from out in the real world signing into this little spell of insanity.
    So I thought I’d get one more shot in since quistik seems to be concerned about the horse and my 10 inch member or something…and my quadrant…oh, yeah.
    Please go back and reread the post, Q. Your are projecting your insecurities onto me. They won’t stick. I’m too comfortable in my own skin.
    And you are welcome to use your own unit on that horse. I have no particular interest.
    Have I mentioned lately that life is good? It is.
    Oh, and all you Atheists. The Scotch Irish in me never minds a little tussle in the mud. But not to bring you into the fold. I can barely hold myself in there, most days.
    It’s been real, boys.

  277. asoka July 8, 2010 at 1:18 am #

    “Whew! Been a long day. For two years I read this blog in silence, now you can’t shut me up!”
    Enjoying your posts. Hope you don’t shut up.
    I’m still trying to figure out the plot line of a film about the murder of millions of Chinese or millions of Russians. It is as unlikely as a film about the murder of over a million in Iraq by the USA.
    Stories usually focus on individuals. But mass murder of millions, especially when carried out by a military or bureaucrat establishment, doesn’t really translate well to the big screen.
    Films like Sophie’s Choice are about, well, an individual named Sophie who has to make a choice, not about mass murder of millions.
    15 million Native Americans were the victim of White Man’s genocide. Where are the Hollywood movies about that? Masacres, yes, but when you get into millions of deaths, carried out over a long period of time, films are not able to capture such horror.

  278. asoka July 8, 2010 at 1:26 am #
    House Bill 66 State Funds in Community Banks passed the house 65 to 0. Everybody wants New Mexico’s state funds out of Bank of America.
    Still waiting on Senate to act, so you are currently winning the bet.

  279. Vlad Krandz July 8, 2010 at 1:35 am #

    Yeah but think of all the gays who used to end up in traditional marriages. Now that the social mores have changed, what’s to stop the opposite? For example, a girl terrified of men might easily end up in a lesbian relationship. Is she a real lesbian? Maybe not, she’s just taking the line of psychological least resistance. You think this fantastic? Where I live, young women have to pretend to be at least bisexual to achieve maximum coolness. A somewhat similar process could also happen with young men.

  280. Vlad Krandz July 8, 2010 at 1:49 am #

    You think the Founders wanted Blacks to stay here? No. They knew slavery was immoral but they didn’t believe Blacks were our equals. They wanted to repatriate them to Africa or as Jefferson said, beyond the danger of mixture. The fact that you don’t know shows your claims to scholarship are fraudulent. Why didn’t Washington say “Whites”? He didn’t need to – everyone was on the same page.
    Are you really a vet? And? Does that mean you are automatically right and not an asshole? Most vets have no idea why they fought. If they did, they wouldn’t have gone. See Washington’s Farewell Adress. He warns posterity to avoid foreign wars. Most Americans are chumps. If they understood America, they wouldn’t have gone, and we wouldn’t have had WW1, WW2, Korea, or Vietnam. If you went, you are a chump too. But thank you for your good intent and service. Good intentions are important, but not enough. The road to hell is paved with good intententions. The Founders were not only good men but SMART.
    The war against the Tripoli Pirates was one of the few good wars as they were preying on our shipping. Muslims feel they have the right to the property and persons of infidels. Of course you probably think that Adams wanted them to come here and live. That was just talk talk. Diplomacy and Treaties are full of that. Do you really believe that Adams wanted Muslims to come here and set up shop? I mean he had enough trouble with Christianity…

  281. asoka July 8, 2010 at 2:22 am #

    “You might recall that there was a war (WW2) and a Cold War and that the Soviets were as busy as bees intervening militarily all over the world.”
    You are right. There was a war (WW2) which was a waste of human life. And through WW2 we helped Stalin enslave millions in Eastern Europe under communist rule.

    If the objective of the West was the destruction of Nazi Germany, it was a “smashing” success. But why destroy Hitler? If to liberate Germans, it was not worth it. After all, the Germans voted Hitler in.
    If it was to keep Hitler out of Western Europe, why declare war on him and draw him into Western Europe? If it was to keep Hitler out of Central and Eastern Europe, then, inevitably, Stalin would inherit Central and Eastern Europe.
    Was that worth fighting a world war – with 50 million dead?
    The war Britain and France declared to defend Polish freedom ended up making Poland and all of Eastern and Central Europe safe for Stalinism. –By Patrick J. Buchanan

  282. Eleuthero July 8, 2010 at 2:34 am #

    Interesting to read the knee-jerk liberal
    comments that Jim (or other “fascists”)
    are “scapegoating” the Mexicans. Please.
    These are Orwellian people who have no
    respect for legitimate data whatsoever.
    While Mexicans are certainly NOT as
    violent or criminal as Blacks, they are
    FAR more prone to violence than ordinary
    Americans of European extraction. They
    underperform educationally at about the
    same level as Blacks.
    Finally, there are those who continue with
    the mantra that Mexicans take jobs that
    Americans would never take. That was only
    true when America was going through its
    most opulent period in history in the
    1980s and 1990s (fake though it was). Now
    that reality has set in and many people
    would gladly shovel shit if some would-be
    employer handed them the shovel, this mantra
    is essentially bullshit.
    Jim courageously insists that they be
    called ILLEGAL aliens instead of the
    Democrat-Orwellian insistance on calling
    them “undocumented”. Bravo, Jim. Bravo.
    It’s a pretty damned sad situation when
    my friends have to spend $10,000 and a
    year’s time to get their Swedish WIVES
    into America while people from this
    execreble culture flow like water over
    the Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and
    California borders.
    Jim is also absolutely correct in saying
    that LEGAL immigration should be slowed
    to a trickle. I think we should profile
    people based upon their work history, their
    criminal history (if any), and the skills,
    or lack thereof, that they would bring to
    the US.
    This has NOTHING to do whatever with “racism”.
    As I stated at the outset of this entry, it’s
    about respecting EXISTING statistics.

  283. eightm July 8, 2010 at 2:38 am #

    The idea is that the way the USA appears now, it is as if it had been scientifically designed to kill any possible Mass Transit.
    OK, BUSES can’t and will never work. Then why does everyone keep on talking about trains ? Why talk about High Speed Trains, or any train transit at all ? Why talk about subways ? Does the train station lie exactly at your house and all your various different destinations exactly at train stations ? How is it that people cannot understand that without some form of BUS transit to and from the train stations, trains will never take off and are totally useless ?
    I find it startling how people cannot see something so obvious. This shows that people have some really serious problems in their brains, they are seriously brainwashed, conditioned, cannot see the most obvious thing. Yeah, lets all plan, invest and talk about passenger trains, the BUS systems that gets to and from the stations is irrelevant, is actually BAD, BUSES ARE BAD, BUT TRAINS ARE GOOD.
    Then they keep on talking about Peak Oil, Global Warming, the Energy problems, etc.
    If I mention then why not use Skyscrapers for High Density living where you have apartments, retail and offices all in the same building, so that you only need to use elevators, that is “Utopian”.
    Then exactly what does JHK and environmentalists really propose, the dark ages, we should all live like the Amish ? 300 million Amishes and 7 billion Amishes worldwide ?
    Anyways, even if BUSES (and consequently any form of passenger trains) can’t ever work in the USA, they could work greatly if not excellently in most of the rest of the world. Most of the world – Latin America, India, Europe, China have very high density towns and cities, often with a regular grid structure, and the distances are much shorter than those in the USA. Most of these towns and cities are a real perfect match for a very efficient high tech BUS transit system. But they all want to imitate America and use private cars. That is why I insist that the BUS systems should be first born in the USA, because then the rest of the world would follow, since they are all really too stupid to figure it out themselves.

  284. cowswithguns July 8, 2010 at 3:14 am #

    As a guy who’s still in the “game” — though my days are a young bachelor are fading fast — I must say, that’s so 1997.
    Back then, it did indeed seem cool for every girl to at least pretend to be bi-sexual. But now I think there’s somewhat of a backlash.
    Don’t believe everything the people at the senior center tell you about kids these days.

  285. diogen July 8, 2010 at 7:28 am #

    Vlad, the historical record is clear about who financed and made the Russian October Revolution possible. There were a number of the funding sources: Lenin was very successful in raising funds among the Russian intelligentsia. Stalin robbed banks and extorted money from bankers and businessmen (one of whom was Rothschild, so here’s your Jew connection). But a large funding source was Germany: Germany hoped that a Revolution in Russia would cause Russia to pull out of WWI and save Germany from defeat.
    Had it not been for the efforts of Germany, there would not have been a Russian Revolution. Yes, history is full of paradoxes. There were Jews among the revolutionaries, but many more were Russians, Georgians, Armenians, Ukranians, Poles, etc.
    Lenin was in Germany prior to the events of October 1917, and Germany supplied him and his allies with huge funds, and finally German Gov’t dispatched a special sealed train across war-torn Europe with Lenin in it to Petrograd, Russia in order to provide the leadership to the Revolution. Read this:
    “It was not until the Bolsheviks had received from us a steady flow of funds through various channels and under varying labels that they were in a position to be able to build up their main organ Pravda, to conduct energetic propaganda and appreciably to extend the originally narrow base of their party.
    Von Kühlmann, minister of foreign affairs, to the kaiser, December 3, 1917.
    In April 1917 Lenin and a party of 32 Russian revolutionaries, mostly Bolsheviks, journeyed by train from Switzerland across Germany through Sweden to Petrograd, Russia. They were on their way to join Leon Trotsky to “complete the revolution.” Their trans-Germany transit was approved, facilitated, and financed by the German General Staff. Lenin’s transit to Russia was part of a plan approved by the German Supreme Command, apparently not immediately known to the kaiser, to aid in the disintegration of the Russian army and so eliminate Russia from World War I.”
    These are well known events accepted by historians. Your historical knowledge is so superficial it’s almost charming. Here’s one of the good sources on the events of the October Revolution:

  286. deblonay July 8, 2010 at 7:34 am #

    Kunstler is right about railways’
    Here in Australia.where the economy is booming. and where unemployment has today reached a new low of 5%,there has been a big stimulus program in recent on railways up-grading.
    All major cities and state capitals can be reached by rail services.
    In Victoria where I live there, has been major billion dollar program to upgrade intrastate services with hourly VFT between Melbourne and the msjor regional cities.
    There are major long distance trains north/south across the continent too being in most cases a 3 day trip on modern comfortable trains,though of course air services remain cheap and frequent
    and in most states there are good local rail services.
    In the northern state of Queensland there is a great “Tilt Train” service for 1800 kms right up the coast from Brisbane the state capital ,to Cairns in the far north of the state.
    The “Tilt” is a kind of train that will “tilt” gently on sharp curves and gives added safety when the train is speeding…there are similar trains in Northern Italy..great services!
    I have traveled in the USA and it is far far behind all European counties and Japan and China,and many other asian countries like Malaysia and India.Taiwan and South Korea have both got splendid rain services
    The Chinese have just started Super-fast services alongside their quite good normal services.
    What the USA needs as Kunstler says is a network of fast.comfortable trains linked to local services….but while the US spends all it wealth on weapons of war..and wars in the Middle East..there is no money for rail developments..The people of the USA must take up with the politicians their need for better railways and the benefits they would bring to the economy….all the infrastructure is still there from a great system the US people once enjoyed!!

  287. diogen July 8, 2010 at 8:03 am #

    Hmm, I’m finding myself in agreement with 8M. Before National, regional or intercity rail service can be accepted by Americans, there needs to bee viable public transportation within cities. With the proposed 3C railway in Ohio connecting Cincinnati, Columbus and Cleveland, I could take a train from Cleveland to Cincinnati, but what do I do when I get there? Take a cab? Rent a car? Hitch a ride? My great fear is that the 3C will be built, and then few people will use it because of the lack of public transport options in Cincinnati, Columbus and Cleveland, and this will be a nail in the coffin of Rail in the U.S. for many decades.
    8M, I agree, we need BUSES in cities (also trams, trolleys, bike lanes, suburban light rail…)
    If you folks want to see intelligent public transportation, go to Germany, Switzerland and Austria. In Switzerland, even the tiniest villages in remote mountains get bus service from train stations, because Postal buses take passengers, so wherever mail is delivered, people can be delivered too. Perhaps Americans should be thinking about delivering people to the places on Earth before thinking about delivering people to Mars and Moon. Or Iraq and Afghanistan for that matter.

  288. diogen July 8, 2010 at 8:14 am #

    To Wage: Capitalism is exploitation of man by man, and Socialism is exactly the opposite.
    Wage and Asoka, here’s an illustration why Socialism will never work. In our community garden (where everyone is alloted a plot of land) there’s a plot of land for the local Food Bank. The idea was that every plot holder will put in some work into the Food Bank plot as well as his/her own.
    I challenge you to come up here and try to guess which plot is the Food bank plot. Don’t worry, it will be easy, it’s the one with weeds and hardly anything of value growing in it. While most individual people’s plots are bursting with produce.
    So, most people will always pursue their self-interest first. Some will talk about pursuing “common” or “community” interests, but really they only mean to pursue their self-interest. Mind you, these community garden plot folks appear very community-minded, and talk a good game.
    Self-interest is an irresistible instinct as strong as the drive for food, sex and icecream, and all of societal inequalities are based on the differences in people’s abilities to assert their self-interest over the self-interest of others.
    It’s the role of the Gov’t to prevent the predators among us to prey on those with lesser abilities to assert their self-interest. That and protecting national borders!!!!

  289. diogen July 8, 2010 at 8:24 am #

    One more thing. Qshtik — you are full of shit. Your claim last week that you KNOW what conversations took place at the 4 July party I was in, is laughable. Your arrogance is impressive. The conversations were exactly as I said. The hosts had their kitchen remodeled recently with (yes) granit countertops. One of the guest was an avid Corvette collector trader, he buys and sells vintage Corvettes. So here you go, you do not know what you are talking about.

  290. Eleuthero July 8, 2010 at 8:32 am #

    Your points about rail service are
    very germane, Diogen. However, it’s
    the result of a suburban culture that
    WANTS to minimize human contact. We
    want to get in our private cars, go
    to a big box store, and get home,
    preferably without any meaningful
    human interaction. Most Americans
    don’t like rail or bus because it
    might involve strangers talking to
    us. Clearly, I’m convinced that
    we’re not even in the same universe
    as the much more amiable Americans
    of just a couple of decades ago.
    We don’t even want to see our kids
    or our spouses. They’re a source
    of “irritation” so the TV or a
    video game is the baby sitter of
    the kids. Spouses? Well, most
    kids (sixty percent) are raised
    in homes where a male presence is
    mostly absent due to meteoric
    divorce rates and the fact that the
    woman virtually always get custody.
    that went bust chasing money and
    gadgets and now that we don’t have
    money and the gadgets aren’t even
    as much fun as bad sex we’re very,
    very pouty about it.
    Most of America is ANGRY, BROKE, and
    DISSPIRITED which underlies our inertia.
    A culture cannot accomplish anything of
    worth when it exhausted itself with a
    rat race based solely on money and
    looking at other people as enemies in
    a zero sum game.

  291. envirofrigginmental July 8, 2010 at 8:53 am #

    I think that history will prove, as the 21st century proceeds, that one of the USA’s major downfalls and decline from a sustainable post-industrial society will be it’s lack of action on mass transit rail implementation.
    Already being hampered by a public transportation network and infrastructure based solely on automobiles, much catch-up is required. But from what I’m hearing, little is happening.

  292. progressorconserve July 8, 2010 at 9:01 am #

    Good morning. I think I’ve got you pinned this time.
    You said,”Scour the archives of CFN and see if you can find one time I have been pro-war, pro-population growth, pro-contaminating the environment…”
    and then you said,
    “Scour the archives of CFN and see if you can find one time I was pro-slamming shut the borders….”
    Asoka, those two planks of “orthodox liberalism” are incompatible with one another.
    Don’t you agree?
    Yes you do.
    Because you also said
    “progressorconserve and cowswithguns,
    Your arguments are convincing and I feel myself wavering. Although I would like a world in which there are no borders, maybe the practical thing is to have borders right now.
    I know Qshtik says nobody ever convinces anybody with their arguments here, but in this case your arguments are about to change my mind.
    I am particularly vulnerable to arguments relating to overpopulation (that’s why I got a vasectomy) and I also understand the greater resource depletion by 1st world countries.
    Thank you both for presenting a different view on these issues.”
    You are in a box on this issue Asoka. You cannot have it both ways.
    By “proxy,” the US of A is in this same box.
    Sophistry will not lift us out on pretty clouds of words.
    You have an amazingly talented RIGHT brain.
    Now, engage the logical LEFT side of your brain to devise a solution.
    The Earth needs you, A.

  293. ProgressivePete July 8, 2010 at 9:12 am #

    Mark Twain’s uncensored autobiography was released yesterday, 100 years after his death.
    Here’s what he wrote about Christianity:
    “There is one notable thing about our Christianity: bad, bloody, merciless, money-grabbing, and predatory. The invention of hell measured by our Christianity of today, bad as it is, hypocritical as it is, empty and hollow as it is, neither the deity nor his son is a Christian, nor qualified for that moderately high place. Ours is a terrible religion. The fleets of the world could swim in spacious comfort in the innocent blood it has spilled.”

  294. Cash July 8, 2010 at 9:18 am #

    …we helped Stalin enslave…Asoka
    Asoka, sorry but this entire post is too absurd for comment.

  295. envirofrigginmental July 8, 2010 at 9:24 am #

    I hear you on the need to take a break. It definitely IS exhausting focussing on all the crap that goes on in the world.
    But in a world filled with distractions, it’s necessary to keep issues such as this front and centre, because those poor bastards along the Gulf coast (and quite possibly up the eastern seaboard as the currents flow) are facing it every day and will be for at least a generation, if not longer. As a member of the human race, I empathize with their frustration, anger, disgust, etc., etc., but not being directly impacted by it, feel hamstrung about what I can actually do about it without quitting my job and heading for a clean-up boat.
    So I use my empathy and translate it into some form of action.
    That said, I am actively in the process of shrinking my “lifestyle”/footprint (read Daune Elgin’s Voluntary Simplicity) as one miniscule act in this 6 billion person play we’re in, to put less pressure on the need to have oil rigs in sensitive areas in the first place. If everyone in the energy gluttonous West were to make a concerted effort to live smaller, the result would collectively impact the need for more Deepwater Horizons.
    Yes, the damage is done and all we can do is deal with it. Being reminded of it is tiresome. But I’m just not convinced we have the luxury to ignore it anymore.

  296. shecky July 8, 2010 at 9:31 am #

    “Your points about rail service are
    very germane, Diogen. However, it’s
    the result of a suburban culture that
    WANTS to minimize human contact. We
    want to get in our private cars, go
    to a big box store, and get home,
    preferably without any meaningful
    human interaction.”
    Yep, that’s the nut of it. I hate to fly, not only because of the Security nonsense, but because I have to listen to people yap on their phones, and I have to make physical contact with strangers who Dunlop into my space.
    I lived in Atlanta for years, and for the first seven I did not own a car. I rode MARTA, trains and buses, and took the occasional cab after hours. The MARTA experience got worse and worse. People would just not leave each other in peace. I was assaulted twice at 5 Points Station, and followed home by would-be muggers at Candler Park and the bus stop at North DeKalb Mall. I carried a ball peen hammer in those days, and used it. (A tip- a ball peen does not snag on your clothes when you pull it from your pocket.)
    The relief I got by buying a car was well worth the expense. No strangers saying “Give me a dollar.” Nobody in the seat next to me masturbating in his pants. Never had to wipe shit stains off the only remaining seat.
    When I got home though, or to work, or to the theatre, I could interact meaningfully with the people whom I chose as associates. I could even give people rides, which was a great way to make friends.
    If people are so beat up by the constant howl of our lives that they withdraw from all human contact, that is discouraging. It is a pretty good explanation for the Zombie Culture we are becoming. Withdrawal is a reaction to too fucking much, all the fucking time. It is understandable, but not a solution to the problem, just a coping device.
    I have no idea what to do about it. I am glad it is not me. Maybe a destruction of our technocentric ways via Peak Oil is more desirable than one would think. No TV, no X-Box, no internet. What the hell will we do? Talk with one another?
    I am starting to perk up, the way I do when I smell a big storm coming.

  297. envirofrigginmental July 8, 2010 at 9:49 am #

    HTF did the issue of lesbians and gays creep into this comment stream? Who gives a shit?

  298. envirofrigginmental July 8, 2010 at 10:08 am #

    We need an intregrated system of ALL efficient modes of transportation. Each location will inevitably have a unique solution adapted to topography, ecology, population centres, etc., etc..
    Do yourself a favour and read ‘A Pattern Language’ by Chrisopher Alexander. Researched in the 1960’s and published in the early 70’s it is a fascinating tome on how human dwelling can be best implemented: from the macro to the micro.
    You sound a little bit like Le Corbusier, who envisioned this pristine world of hi-rise slabs in space sitting in parkland criss-crossed by open freeways. It might have worked had it been put into practice as conceived, but as usual, the idea was subverted by developers and other profiteers and resulted in many of the hi-rise slums existing across the entire planet today.
    Humans can exist in these urban constructs, but they are unquestionably inhuman. Efficiencies of scale in one area, can have detrimental affects in another. It is a question of balance.
    I suspect most good ideas going forward will suffer similar results. But that doesn’t mean we don’t attempt to put them in place.
    And don’t ignore or dismiss the concept of horses. No, we might not have to live just like the Amish, but in TLE we will need to use everything at our disposal if we want to carry on “project civilization” as JHK coined.

  299. asoka July 8, 2010 at 10:28 am #

    Tell it to the peoples of Eastern Europe who, at the end of the war, were not anymore free than at the beginning. 50 million people dead. No freedom. And you are still defending WW2. That is what is absurd. War is not an effective instrument for social change and does not promote freedom.

  300. envirofrigginmental July 8, 2010 at 11:32 am #

    Being Canadian gives me a unique perspective on your post.
    Here in Toronto, Montreal and most other major Canadian urban centres, mass transit is used by a wide spectrum of economic and social classes. This is in part due to our tendency to create denser urban forms. (Fly over Toronto then fly over Detroit or Atlanta to get my point.) But I also believe it has to do with our “socialist” as some might call it, approach to life.
    Public transit in the US is predominantly a mode of transportation for the lowest of socio-economic classes. Anyone who can afford to not take it, will, for all the reasons you mentioned.
    There is a theory in architecture that “ownership”, whether actual or perceived, of a facility tends to protect the facility from degradation, but it takes numbers in order to achieve this. One doesn’t find the same frequency of the unpleasant attributes of public transit as you mentioned in well-utilized systems that draw upon a wide spectrum of socio-economic populations. London and Paris’s systems are also good examples.
    I was in Detroit recently and took a walking tour of downtown. They built an elevated system recently that apparently only the bravest of turf war thugs will now use. It goes virtually no where, accesses buildings off the street (where at least there were some pedestrians for a sense of safety) and has limited capacity. Couple this with little to no downtown residents, and the thing is a dangerous, expensive white elephant. Of course the worse it gets, the more people will avoid it, and so it goes. This is a common story.
    Quite frankly, IMHO, as long as there is class distinction which creates a disenfranchised underclass, (i.e. blacks, Mexicans, working white poor etc.) as a result of an “I’m alright Jack” attitude, any mass transit system in the states is burdened from the outset and is fighting an almost impossible uphill battle for success.
    Mass transit works best in industrial societies that are more egalitarian, as there is a more cohesive sense of community, not an ‘us’ and ‘them’ vantage point.

  301. diogen July 8, 2010 at 11:33 am #

    A few more points about urban transportation. I’ve used public transport with great pleasure in European countries (including excellent transport in Eastern Europe), Turkey and Japan, and here are my thoughts about America. It’s going to be an uphill battle for us because:
    1. Climate. It’s either too damn hot, humid, wet or too damn cold in most of the U.S. for very long periods of time. European climate is much more moderate, so walking the streets to/from/between public transport stations is pleasant in Europe, and unpleasant in the U.S. (like right now).
    2. People will not voluntarily walk the streets unless it’s safe AND pleasant AND comfortable. Given that most U.S. central cities are neither safe (esp. at certain hours) nor pleasant (let’s be honest, compared to European cities, American cities are ugly), nor comfortable (no sidewalks many places, or very narrow sidewalks where 2 people can barely pass each other), it’s going to be an uphill battle to get people out into the streets walking. These streets were built for the convenience of cars, not humans.
    3. Polarization of American society. In Europe, most people appear to be the same class/culture (with the exception of the recent waves of suicidal immigration from Africa and Islamic world), so people feel comfortable in each other’s presence. In Bern, Switz. millionaire bankers take trams, sit next to construction workers. Americans are so polarized by race, class, culture, with deep discomfort being close to others of different race/class/culture. And because of decades of isolation in cars, so many Americans act without consideration and politeness to each other (I’ve seen incredibly rude behaviors by drivers on the roads, gas stations, etc.). These aren’t the people you’d enjoy sitting/standing next to on the bus.
    4. Car birth-right. Americans can’t conceive that cars aren’t a god-given American right. For most of Americans, the steering wheel would have to be pried from their dead hands.
    5. Investment into public transport infrastructure. We’re broke, not much more to say.
    So, things don’t look good any time soon.
    Even in the countries where there’s a long tradition of public transport, most people would rather drive if they can afford it. In Mexico City they have trouble passing laws restricting car proliferation, because even the poor people who don’t have cars resist those laws because they hope to have a car one day.
    As I’ve sad in the past, the automobile is one of the most destructive technologies in history, once out you can’t push it back into the box.

  302. Cash July 8, 2010 at 11:37 am #

    Ok Asoka, sorry I lost my temper.
    “And through WW2 we helped Stalin enslave millions in Eastern Europe under communist rule.”
    Bullshit. Having Stalin enslave millions was not the intent and not remotely in our interest.
    “But why destroy Hitler?”
    He has to ask? Hitler was a horror. Nazi-ism was a profoundly evil ideology, Nazis were bent on killing those they saw as racially inferior. Rule by the Master Race was its theme, lebensraum was its aim, terror, mechanized killing and industrial scale murder were its methods.
    “…inevitably, Stalin would inherit Central and Eastern Europe.” Deeply stupid. Nothing was inevitable. Nobody could know ahead of time what the outcomes would be or the course of events. We have the obvious benefit of hindsight.
    For years it looked as if Germany would win. They were killing Soviets by the millions (20 million seems the consensus), they were strangling Soviet cities and it looked like Soviet territory and its people would end up as slave to the Nazis.
    “Was that worth fighting a world war – with 50 million dead?” Again, no one knew ahead of time the outcomes. The 50 million includes many millions in Asia butchered by the Japanese Army . Let’s not forget that small matter. Was it worth it? Yes, Nazi-ism and Japanese militarism are dead and gone. Europe and Asia are out from under their boot. If Germany and Japan hadn’t been defeated how many millions more would have died? Once Germans were done butchering Jews they would have gone on to butcher Slavs and then who knows? Greeks? Italians? Both short and dark, not the Aryan Master Race, not fit to live. And how many millions more would the Japanese have murdered and raped in Asia?
    An uncle of mine by marriage who suffered in Nazi occupied central Europe said that there were more Nazis in Europe outside of Germany than inside of Germany ie Nazi-ism attracted a lot of people.
    Last and most important: let’s not forget that Stalin and Hitler did not follow the dictates of the United States. Stalin and Hitler had their own agendas, they would exert their own will, they had gigantic armies and resources at their disposal, they had the support of their respective populations. Neither was a puppet that the US could manipulate.
    There were more soldiers, tanks, artillery and aircraft in one battle, the battle of Kursk, than on the entire Western front. Events would take their course in Eastern Europe notwithstanding the machinations of Churchill and Roosevelt. World War Two’s main action, the vast bulk of the fighting and dying was between Germany and the USSR. The Western Front in Europe in comparison was a sideshow. I am not denigrating the sacrifice by Americans, British and the Allies but let’s not exaggerate the power and influence of the US and the UK in Europe in WW2. It was the Soviets that beat Hitler and Germany.
    One other thing, it took decades but last I looked Stalin is dead, his occupying army is gone, Eastern Europe is FREE. I give Americans credit for that.

  303. Hancock1863 July 8, 2010 at 11:39 am #

    I owe you thanks on a couple of items. First, for the excellent history and link on the financing of the Russian Revolution. It has been quite a few years since I read up on it, and my knowledge on the topic had been getting fuzzy.
    What I did remember from my readings many years ago was that it certainly wasn’t a Vast Conspiracy of Jews who financed the Russian Revolution any more than they did the American Revolution.
    Second, I had been racking my brain for this quote, which sums it up quite nicely:

    Capitalism is exploitation of man by man, and Socialism is exactly the opposite.

    Ultimately, this is why I remain committed to not just the idea of American Checks and Balances as the only practical means of channeling human frailties into the drive for something better, but also to FDR New Deal Capitalism as the best way to do the same.
    In many way, New Deal Capitalism, a bit of a hybrid between Capitalism and Socialism, though STILL much heavier on the Capitalism, is something of an extension of the System of Checks and Balances, which is (to oversimplify a bit for the sake of brevity) that the Socialist elements check the Capitalist elements and vice-versa.
    Not perfect, but human beings being greedy and, to put it mildly, impefect, is what the USA’s Founding Documents are all about at bottom – how to deal with the imperatives of human nature and create “a more perfect union”, which is to say a more just, decent society for all who work hard and play by the rules.
    In many ways, the problems JHK and Joe Bageant discuss are partially a result of the breakdown of those New Deal economic checks and balances, with Capitalism now run amok with even the mild socialist elements of the New Deal, such as financial regulation, hopelessly gutted and neutralized.
    Thus, we go “Back to the Future” of the Robber Baron 1890s, and it seems that our Corporate Government’s every move, even under that “socialist” Obama (chortle – yeah, Obama’s a socialist, and I’ve got a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn, never been used) is designed to keep the populace just docile enough for the least cost, while we “transition” to the New Feudalism or whatever the Aristocratic Elite have planned so they keep farting through silk while we are outside playing Mad Max during TLE.
    Since we humans keep rerunning the same history over and over and over again, we’re now out of time to change direction without a helping hand from Mother Nature (though rest assured, we won’t view what’s coming as “help”) just like she does with every species who overshoots.

  304. Cash July 8, 2010 at 11:43 am #

    I haven’t read Frankl’s book. Thanks for the tip. I will read it and let you know what I think. Maybe we can have a debate about that too.

  305. Hancock1863 July 8, 2010 at 11:56 am #

    Many people don’t know about this little corner of history nor about Major General Smedley Butler, one of the greatest heroes in American History that no one knows about.
    Listen to this BBC Radio Special and prepare to be surpised:
    FDR had them! HAD THEM, dead to rights, for HIGH TREASON.
    But, as the story goes, he was afraid of what would happen to the fragile economy if he jailed or hanged half of America’s Aristiocratic assholes (who knows what his real motivations were), though it surely was what they deserved.
    Now their descendants, both spiritual and literal, have looted our nation and the world. I shall always wonder if our present and future wasn’t born on that day, so long ago, when FDR let them go, sealed the documents, and allowed knowledge of these events to disappear down the Memory Hole.

  306. Hancock1863 July 8, 2010 at 12:26 pm #

    I often enjoy both yours and asoka’s intelligent comments. In this case, though, you are by far much more in the right with your analysis:

    “And through WW2 we helped Stalin enslave millions in Eastern Europe under communist rule.”
    Bullshit. Having Stalin enslave millions was not the intent and not remotely in our interest.
    “But why destroy Hitler?”
    He has to ask? Hitler was a horror. Nazi-ism was a profoundly evil ideology, Nazis were bent on killing those they saw as racially inferior. Rule by the Master Race was its theme, lebensraum was its aim, terror, mechanized killing and industrial scale murder were its methods.
    “…inevitably, Stalin would inherit Central and Eastern Europe.” Deeply stupid. Nothing was inevitable. Nobody could know ahead of time what the outcomes would be or the course of events. We have the obvious benefit of hindsight.
    For years it looked as if Germany would win. They were killing Soviets by the millions (20 million seems the consensus), they were strangling Soviet cities and it looked like Soviet territory and its people would end up as slaves to the Nazis.

    asoka, sorry, but I think he is 100% correct and in this case, I think you carried your point too far to the extreme that it went right off the edge into ridiculousness. No worries. It happens to the best of us when in the heat of argument. Hopefully his comments have given you pause to reconsider.
    I might add among the many MANY benefits of crushing the Nazis was that modern fascists like Vlad have to completely avoid discussing Their Hero Adolf when trolling for recruits.
    Which is like Christians being unable reference Christ or Liberals being unable to reference FDR or mystery movie buffs being unable to reference Alfred Hitchcock in their discussions.
    Because the Allies’ total victory in WWII so definitely debunked fascist propaganda and lies while giving us such a good detailed look into the face of pure evil that it’s tough for modern and future fascists to practice Goebbels’ Big Lie strategy with regard to Their Hero Adolf.
    A relatively very small benefit compared to all the others, but significant nonetheless.

  307. Qshtik July 8, 2010 at 12:30 pm #

    It’s the role of the Gov’t to prevent the predators among us to prey on those with lesser abilities to assert their self-interest.
    I agree with everything you’ve said in this comment about why socialism will never work but I would like a clarification on the excerpt above.
    Companies that deal at the consumer level typically price their products “at retail.” As I’ve gotten older and wiser I noticed that many products could be purchased at less than retail once one realized that the retail price was just kind of a suggestion or trial balloon to see what some chumps were willing to pay. All the big retailers are experts at this. I worked in the audit dept of Macy’s for a brief period in my career and my daughter works in “merchandising” for Ralph Lauren so I have some insight as to how it works and about that first group of buyers who pay full retail. The management of these firms are not actually so crass as to refer to these customers as chumps. “Chumps” is MY term for them.
    So, my question is: are the people who are dumb, lazy, uninformed or less experienced in the ways of the world being preyed upon when a company sells to them at the full retail price when they know with certainty that they will sell the same product at a lower price to the more savy shopper?
    A food service company operated the cafeteria where I used to work. The Caf was always festooned with ads for various high-margin products like candy and soda. This always enraged my ultra left-wing friend Chris who thought it was a crime that this company was permitted to push their (arguably) less healthful offerings to people susceptable to the come-on of advertising.
    How does the government know when it’s appropriate to step in “to prevent the predators among us to prey on those with lesser abilities to assert their self-interest?”
    I say this is a dog-eat-dog world and “buyer beware.”

  308. trippticket July 8, 2010 at 1:10 pm #

    A recurring theme in these hallowed halls seems to be one of entitled protection of our “ownership.” In the current case, the land occupied by US political boundaries circa 2010 CE.
    But we forget one really big item in our hubris: that this land was not our land originally. Neither was Canada, or Australia, or…
    Millions (by some estimates 50 million+ in the continental US alone) of PEOPLE died at gun and knife point, were diseased, or forcibly evacuated from their ancestral homes, forests, and gardens by our forebears, these people that we look back upon so admiringly. People who wrote the Constitution with zero regard for the humanity of the PEOPLE they were obliterating.
    They brought with them land valuations based on English real estate (esp. Australia), and familiar plants and animals to make these foreign places feel more homey to them. Never mind that foxes and rabbits and English sparrows and privet hedges drove their own competitors out of business at the same time that we “cleansed” our manifest destiny of its own “wretches.”
    And when our appetites, or perhaps our ability to stomach the view of the destruction our appetites were causing, outgrew our continental resources, we turned on the possessions of poor Haitians, and Somalis, and Serbs, and Siamese… Oh we made it look legit and progressive, but it was a resource grab nonetheless.
    And now that we’ve maxed out our global credit line we want to retreat to “our” land and seal up “our” borders so “they” can’t have any. Have any of what? Our mountains of plastic garbage that we enslaved them to make for us so that we could afford to toss it when it broke or bored us, instead of making and repairing something decent here at home? Something we could take pride in, and pass on to our children? No, that kind of behavior takes character. Character we might have possessed in small amounts once upon a time, perhaps before agriculture, and way before we were shanking “savages” and raping and burning “witches” in the name of “god.”
    Whatever it takes to make it palatable, right? Face it, we Europeans have never had much character to speak of. Yeah, occasionally rare men and women step out of the mist of greed and entitlement to speak up for something or someone of value, but on the whole we’re pretty bad. We’re arrogant and intolerant on a level most humans, particularly foraging and horticultural societies, could never even imagine.
    Jim, you should be ashamed of yourself for the position you’ve taken on border security. And so should everyone else in your herd. Border security is no more an expression of the free market than the TARP bailouts were. It’s not ours, it never really was, and our behavior since we claimed it for ourselves has been reprehensible. Peak Oil is just one of many peaks we face as we turn toward permanent contraction. Peak ownership, peak intellectual property, peak hubris, and peak entitlement are probably even more troubling for the future of Homo-not-so-sapiens (thank you, O3!) on planet Earth.
    I’m not talking about jobs, or social security, or health insurance for “illegals”. I’m talking about a mental paradigm shift that has to occur en masse if we are to stand a chance of persisting for even another couple centuries in Gaia’s good graces.
    Damn near all of the previous posts on this border security thread make my stomach turn. We obviously haven’t even begun to understand the magnitude of what’s happening here. Kunstler included…

  309. San Jose Mom 51 July 8, 2010 at 1:20 pm #

    Before I had kids I used to take San Jose’s light rail to work. It was great — I’d read the Mercury News and WSJ during the journey — even though it was faster to drive.
    But in non-commute hours the light rail turns into the gang-bangers express. I recall riding the light rail downtown with my husband and two small children (everyone in our family is blonde),
    and some thugs got on in the bad part of town and started threatening this white teenager in our car. They threatened the boy and used vulgar, racist lanquage.
    My kids are now teenagers. I certainly don’t encourage them to use public transportation.

  310. asoka July 8, 2010 at 1:27 pm #

    No problem, Cash, we all get frustrated, especially when dealing with Asoka!
    I want to focus a bit on your last comment:

    One other thing, it took decades but last I looked Stalin is dead, his occupying army is gone, Eastern Europe is FREE. I give Americans credit for that.

    A FREE country is often defined as one where there is broad scope for open political competition, a climate of respect for civil liberties, significant independent civic life, and independent media.
    But economic freedom, freedom from worries about where your next meal is coming from or how to pay for health care and education, is not included in the above definition of freedom. I think freedom should also mean freedom from starving and dying from poverty.
    60 years of Eastern Europe being “FREE” has produced what, in terms of economic freedom?
    After the collapse of socialism, foreign direct investment and capital brought new technology and access to world markets, but they did not bring quality jobs, nor enough of them. More likely it brought “jobless growth”. Sound familiar?
    Overall depressed wages led to large numbers of working poor, even among those who found employment. They may have political freedom to protest, but employment insecurity keeps ’em in line, so they don’t exercise their FREEDOM too much, if they want their children to have food. For example, after 60 years of free market capitalism, FREE Poland had a 29 percent child poverty rate.
    In the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, the employment rate in 2006 was 43 percent; in Moldova and Tajikistan the ratio was 51 percent and 53 percent, respectively. So half the population was either unemployed or out of the labor force and I imagine that makes it more difficult to enjoy being FREE.
    Even those with jobs don’t have such a good situation in their FREE countries. A 2010 UNDP survey of Kazakhstan, Moldova, Serbia and Ukraine indicated that, if they were to lose their job, more than 50 percent of respondents assessed their savings as inadequate to cover more than one month of living expenses. A majority of respondents had worries about not having sufficient incomes to survive. So, Eastern Europe has a kind of freedom: the FREEDOM TO SUBSIST.
    In many FREE Eastern European countries, ethnic minorities face problems of labor market exclusion which have been exacerbated by deteriorating access to, and quality of, public and social services (including water and utilities). The combination of growing levels of income poverty for children and deteriorating access to quality education is a particularly dramatic outcome, with long-term exclusionary implications.
    For example, the Roma are a minority in practically every country in Europe. In Central and Eastern Europe they represent a significant part of the population (in Hungary and Slovakia, for example, they constitute at least 5 percent of the total population; in Bulgaria, and Romania over 10 percent). So, after the collapse of socialism, how are the Roma doing?

    In the ways of employment little has changed. Unemployment for the Roma of Hungary remains at an explosive 80 percent (the national average stands at 7.7) with similar unemployment figures for Roma in the surrounding nations. Coinciding with high unemployment is a poverty rate ten times higher than the majority. Meanwhile life expectancy for Roma falls ten to fifteen years below the national average. Romani Baht Roma organization in Bulgaria reports on outbreaks in Roma ghettos of hepatitis and tuberculosis.The living conditions in Roma ghettos and isolated rural settings move many to point and ask – “this is Europe?”

  311. Cash July 8, 2010 at 1:32 pm #

    I totally agree. A detailed look is a good way to put it.
    Asoka and myself and others have had debates with respect to the uses of warfare. Many like Asoka say that warfare is evil, pointless and solves nothing.
    I think that sometimes, like in WW2, there’s no choice. I say it’s a last resort and sometimes it works. For example you haven’t heard a squeak from Germany or Japan and Nazi ideology is, at best, the obsession of a lunatic fringe.
    A lot of people think I’m a psycho for thinking like this. But I can’t help thinking what if I were an 18 year old Russian with a mother and sisters and the German army was bearing down and I’d seen the refugees and heard the stories of slaughter and rape. I’ve read stories about young Russian men throwing themselves under German tanks and setting off explosives they were carrying to stop the tanks. Can you imagine? Makes me wonder what I would do in their place.
    At the same time I feel sorry for guys like Chamberlain. I think it was Churchill that said that, early on, the Nazis in Germany were so weak that Hitler could have been stopped by a memorandum. We now have hindsight and appeasement didn’t work. I can’t imagine what Chamberlain’s life must have been like afterwards. He didn’t live long but he must have spent the rest of it trying to justify to himself and to anyone that would listen why he did what he did.

  312. asoka July 8, 2010 at 1:52 pm #

    Right on, Tripp!

    People who wrote the Constitution with zero regard for the humanity of the PEOPLE they were obliterating.

    By the way, the people who wrote the constitution cribbed from the Iroquois Confederacy, but hey, in this case the gringo plagiarism is excused.
    The founders got ideas from Native Americans that shaped the colonists views about life, liberty, and happiness (Declaration of Independence); government by reason and consent rather than coercion (Albany Plan and Articles of Confederation); religious tolerance (and ultimately religious acceptance) instead of a state church; checks and balances; federalism (U.S. Constitution); and relative equality of property, equal rights before the law, and the thorny problem of creating a government that can rule equitably across a broad geographic expanse (Bill of Rights of the United States Constitution.)
    As Ben Franklin said of the Iroquois Confederacy:

    It would be a very strange Thing, if six Nations of ignorant Savages should be capable of forming a Scheme for such an Union … and yet that a like Union should be impracticable for ten or a Dozen English Colonies.

  313. diogen July 8, 2010 at 2:03 pm #

    “How does the government know when it’s appropriate to step in “to prevent the predators among us to prey”
    This, of course, is a difficult dilemma, and perhaps this is what distinguishes effective gov’ts from ineffective ones. In Germany, as in much of Europe, huge conglomerates/corporations are not allowed to drive small and medium family-owned businesses out of business, so most shops, restaurants and other enterprises are locally owned and operated. This is just one example. As you may have seen, there’s very healthy and vibrant commerce going on in European cities streets, no boarded up buildings there.
    And of course, the corporations are the greatest predators, no individual or small business has any chance against a corporation, ever. Perhaps a more enlightened age will arrive when people will be at a loss to explain how it could’ve taken place.
    Corporations are destroying the fabric of our society, our cities, our farmland, our bodies, our kids’ future. It’s not an easy dilemma of course, I make my comfortable living working for a corporation, but most people I know do not, and their life quality is being destroyed by corporations — retail, food, agriculture, transportation, etc.

  314. Vlad Krandz July 8, 2010 at 2:10 pm #

    Your self hatred is very deep, Tripp – which you then project onto other Whites in order to relieve the pressure. We’re evil and you are the good white nigger. Why don’t you give us a break and yourself too? Competition is the name of the game in nature. You say so yourself. So we beat them – just as the Ojibwas got guns and kicked the Sioux out of the Northern Forest. The Sioux then went out onto the Plains and kicked ass on smaller tribes. When it came time to get put on reservations, the Sioux tried to claim that they had held all the land from Montana to Minesota and south to Kansas.
    Your idealism is suicide. The Mexicans mean to ethnically cleanse us. They will use old grievances, but in reality, it is the drive of life to conquer. If we don’t protect ourselves, we will suffer the fate of the Indians who couldn’t unite against us. Choose: the lives of you and your family or silly idealism. If you choose to help the invaders, it may not go well for you if they win or if they lose. Consider well.

  315. Cash July 8, 2010 at 2:12 pm #

    No question, people can collectively still make a mess of things if they’re free as you so ably pointed out. Just look at the mess of things we’re making now. If we look at our present trajectory can you imagne what a shithole we’ll be living in thirty years from now? Nothing inevitable about it. We collectively squandered ourselves into a deep pit.
    But then there are examples of places that were terribly poor and got themselves out of it. Some free and democratic and some not so much ie authoritarian or ruled by colonial powers. Look at the examples of Japan, South Korea, Hong Kong and Singapore. All were poverty stricken and all managed to elevate themselves and their standards of living.
    There’s nothing saying that because these places you talk about are poor that they will always be poor and that there’s no way out. And look at China. A refrigerator was the impossible dream thirty years ago. Most of Europe was starving and desperate in the post war period. Look at them now.
    I talked about poverty I’d seen in Italy in a previous post. I was there in the early 1970s visiting relatives. Some were in really dire straights. But Italy now and Italy then are like night and day. I went on vacation there in the 1990s and also to Germany. The Italy I saw was not materially different IMO than what I saw in Germany. Howlingly corrupt, yes, but the communities were clean, bustling and full of shiny new cars. Nothing like the dirty decayed places I saw in the 1970s.
    It’s a question of values. Socialism/Communism says we’ll give you the regular certainty of a sack of bread and potatoes, a few pounds of sausage. In return you give up your personal freedoms, your human rights and the possibility of a better life later. Others may differ but IMO not worth it.
    Anecdotes are just anecdotes but sometimes they can illuminate. One woman, exec secretary to our CFO was from Romania. She said she grew up under Communism in conditions of serious deprivation. Almost no material goods, food was crummy and sparse. Nowadays she said there is “everything”. Expensive but it’s there. Now there’s toothpaste AND toilet paper. Maybe you can’t afford both but they’re there, not like the old days.

  316. diogen July 8, 2010 at 2:19 pm #

    Asoka, your notion that private property is undesirable or immoral is… laughable.
    OK, let’s do this. When you acquire your land in New Mexico, and build your adobe house on it, I’ll find a very needy family and bring them to your house, and I’ll expect you to give it up for them. Also, how do you connect to the CFN? If it’s using your own computer, there must be many needy teens who can use your computer, so just give it to them.
    For most people, private property is acquired with the results of their labor. If you advocate taking their property away, you advocate confiscating their labor, and that means you want to enslave them. Nice going, Asoka.
    Property rights are the foundation of all human rights. Dictators throughout history violated human rights beginning with their victims’ property rights. You and others here (Wage?) who condemn property rights sure don’t want to give up YOUR property, do you?
    Yes, some predators (humans and corporations) acquire their property via grand theft, but this is where law and order come in, in a civilized society there are ways to deal with it without violating the porperty rights of individuals.

  317. asoka July 8, 2010 at 2:22 pm #

    Thanks, Hancock1863. Yes, I did go to an extreme … by quoting Pat Buchanan.
    Still, when someone looks into the future and says something like this, to justify a war:
    “it looked like Soviet territory and its people would end up as slaves to the Nazis.”
    I am always mystified. Their powers of prediction are so acute. They know what will happen in the future if there is not a war. The entire world will be enslaved, if there is not a war! Or exterminated, if there is not a war!
    Then they always say: I am for peace. Nobody likes war … war is hell, but it is “sometimes” unavoidable … like 5,000 times in 3,000 years, and look at the world we have.
    Then, when you point out the 50 million people died in the war, and after four years of fighting Eastern Europe remained enslaved, the retort is: “there is no way we could have known that was going to happen.” Suddenly, their power of prediction is not so acute.
    I guess even crystal balls have biases.

  318. Vlad Krandz July 8, 2010 at 2:22 pm #

    Thanks for the link Diogen – I will look into it. One thing well recorded though: the Jewish Banker Jacob Schiff of New York lent the Revolution twenty million dollars gold sterling. Quite a sum then or now. The loan was apparently paid back a couple decades later to Schiff’s firm with thanks.
    Many middle or even lower class American Jews contributed as well as best they could. For anyone to claim that the Jews did not have a special role in the Revolution if fatuous. They were wildly excited at the defeat and humiliation of their old enemies the Czars. The rulership of the new Russia was 85% Jewish. Later they lost control of the Revolution with ascent of Stalin. He took an exeedingly dim view of their developing Zionism – he thought the Soviet Union should be their all in all.
    Look for Solzhenitsyn’s last book about the the role of the Jews in Russia. It hasn’t been published or even translated into English yet. Apparently there is alot of resistance from the publishing industry (controlled by Jews at least in America). But perhaps it’s come out in German.

  319. diogen July 8, 2010 at 2:28 pm #

    Cash, all good points. However, what happened to Italians? The people who built these magnificent Renaissance cities, breath-taking hill towns (OK, I know that Etruscans weren’t really Italian), the soul-pleasing villages, and NOW? What’s with all the naked concrete crap they’ve been building everywhere in the past 30 years?
    By the way, one of the most engrossing books I read lately is “Brunelleschi’s Dome: How a Renaissance Genius Reinvented Architecture”, its a fascinating story how Filippo Brunelleschi designed and built the cathedral of Santa Maria del Fiore in Florence.
    AMAZING story, highly recommend it.

  320. asoka July 8, 2010 at 2:35 pm #

    I think you have done it! You have me trapped and I cannot argue my way out. I tried and tried to think of a logical response to you until I fried my brain and the wavering stopped.
    Obama has sent more troops to the southern border in one year than Bush did in eight years. In this case I think Bush was right. We don’t have money to spend on patrolling borders. We are broke. How can we spend money to pay people to sit in big SUV’s with binoculars? Paying people to sit all day!

  321. Vlad Krandz July 8, 2010 at 2:38 pm #

    Who is your guru Asoka?

  322. diogen July 8, 2010 at 2:45 pm #

    Yes, many different people financed the October Revolution, jews among them. Rich Russians too, like Savva Morozov and many others who could not have foreseen the evils of communism. There were many Jews among the revolutionaries, but definitely not the majority as you’ve claimed. It’s not important enough for me to prove it to you.
    You have an ideological axe to grind, and you twist history to suit your purpose. It’s too bad, because you have interesting things to say when you don’t distort the past. And why do it? It doesn’t matter who did what to whom in the past, because everyone did it to everyone else. As I’ve said in the past, people who remember history too well are condemned to repeat it.
    The past is interesting to study, but its foolish and destructive to justify what we want to do today and tomorrow by what someone else did in the past.
    You, Vlad, is a proponent of a good cause here, the preservation of the Anglo-Saxon culture that created America (with the help of yellow, brown and black people, jews and christians and non-believers). But you hurt your cause and alienate people by demonizing “others”, invoking long-discredited conspiracy theories (z. B. Elders of Zion), obsessing about jews, etc. This discredits you, and hurts your cause.
    We have enuff problems to solve for the future, it’s a distraction to be looking in the rear-view mirror, especially a distorted one.

  323. Puzzler July 8, 2010 at 2:52 pm #

    “…and the horse you road in on.”
    It’s fun to nit-pick the great nit-picker, so I’m surprised that no one jumped on this in the 12 hours since it was posted.
    The work is RODE.

  324. Puzzler July 8, 2010 at 2:55 pm #

    Oops! “word” So dock me half a point. (that was a typo, unlike road, which wasn’t a typo, but choice of wrong word)

  325. envirofrigginmental July 8, 2010 at 3:02 pm #

    “The work is RODE.”
    The word is WORD. Shoulda proofread first!

  326. Hancock1863 July 8, 2010 at 3:12 pm #

    First off let me introduce myself and mention that I very much enjoy your posts, and I also enjoy hearing about your advertures in permaculture.
    Second, thanks for your perspective and your most recent post. It is important to remember these things.
    You said:

    Whatever it takes to make it palatable, right? Face it, we Europeans have never had much character to speak of. Yeah, occasionally rare men and women step out of the mist of greed and entitlement to speak up for something or someone of value, but on the whole we’re pretty bad. We’re arrogant and intolerant on a level most humans, particularly foraging and horticultural societies, could never even imagine.

    But honestly, it isn’t just White Europeans who behave badly, it’s all humans who behave badly. It’s all humans who do these things.
    Ever heard of Shaka, the Zulu emperor? A more vile crazy nutbar you’d have a hard time finding.
    He once gathered all of the pregnant women in his empire together and lined them up in chronological order, then cut their bellies cut open to satisfy his curiosity about the stages of the formation of life.
    Paging Dr. Mengele…
    When his mother died, thousands were murdered by his “Homeland Security” for showing insufficient grief. Probably would have been millions but the population was not yet high enough to allow it.
    Paging Mr. Stalin, Chairman Mao…
    Similar atrocities can be found in any race, creed, or color in human history.
    Native Americans did indeed carry out some pretty gruesome tortures and stole each other’s land – it cannot be denied.
    It’s easy to point at White Europeans as the Bringer of All Ruin on the peaceful foraging and horticultural societies, but I think that, too is an oversimplified view.
    Maybe the defining chacteristic is technological level. The same devastations that the Mayans and Anasazi visitied upon themselves, which is overshoot & dieoff, would have been magnified to much greater levels if they had advanced technology & cheap oil, as we do and it HAS magnified the overshoot and dieoff to the whole species.
    It is interesting to note that, just before the Maya went extinct, they ceased practicing their limited-style warfare because some Mayan Ruler figured out that the Total War we associate with White Europeans would gain him an empire, which it did…briefly.
    Come to think of it, as I recall, the same innovation to European-style total warfare gained Shaka his Zulu Empire because the other tribes practiced limited warfare and were thus stunned and incapable of resisting the “new” innovation in time to stop him.
    The Mayan ruler had no contact with Europeans, so he wasn’t emulating them. Shaka’s contact was mostly with White Missionaries, and it is unlikely he copied the idea of Total Warfare from the Europeans, whom he was still very isolated from at the time of his rise.
    Is it not plausible to suggest that perhaps the Mayans or Zulus or ANY race/group of people would do exactly what the White Europeans did to the rest of the world, if they had a similar technological advantage?
    On the topic of JHK’s stance on border security and the posts here: No matter who is responsible or who did what to whom in the past, the reality of the current situation is what it is. If we opened our borders unilaterally, the country would move into TLE much faster than it already is moving.
    Just some things to think about in exchange for your very thought-provoking post.
    I’ll say it again: We all need to be prepared for the idea that the human species is an evolutionary dead end. No one can say for certain if that is the case; extinction will either happen or it won’t over the next 10,000 years. (maybe much sooner)
    Good luck with those veggies and congratulations on your new child!

  327. asoka July 8, 2010 at 3:14 pm #

    “…and the horse you road in on.”
    This is a good example of how a computer spell checker will not help a C student.

  328. asoka July 8, 2010 at 3:19 pm #

  329. diogen July 8, 2010 at 3:27 pm #

    Tripp, hope everything is going well for you.
    I must take an exception to your most recent post:
    “we Europeans have never had much character to speak of. … We’re arrogant and intolerant on a level most humans, …could never even imagine.”
    This is just another form of racism, my friend.
    We Europeans are really not any more flawed than any other group of people. During our time under the Sun we created great cultures and achieved great deeds in arts, sciences, technology, ideas and the like (with some help from non-Europeans). We’re not infallible of course, but neither are we as flawed as you say we are. I’ll tell you what I say to Vlad — focus on individuals and their deeds, not amorphous groups.
    We have a great potato harvest this year, all 6 varieties are producing healthy tubers.

  330. asoka July 8, 2010 at 3:31 pm #

    diogen said:

    Asoka, your notion that private property is undesirable or immoral is… laughable.

    Actually it is Proudhon’s idea, and I gave him credit.

    OK, let’s do this. When you acquire your land in New Mexico, and build your adobe house on it, I’ll find a very needy family and bring them to your house, and I’ll expect you to give it up for them.

    diogen, this is interesting. You have the idea of “ownership” so firmly entrenched in your mind that you think property has to transfer ownership and property ownership is exclusive. Why don’t you, instead, think of the idea of common possession and sharing? It may be a valuable skill when TSHTF.

    Also, how do you connect to the CFN?

    I am part of it. You hadn’t noticed?

  331. Hancock1863 July 8, 2010 at 3:35 pm #

    Oh my gosh, and in my litany of atrocities committed by various races of human beings, how could I have forgot the family of Genghis Khan and then later Tammerlane (Timur)?
    Now that was some Total War that went beyond even what the White Europeans were up to.
    Can you imagine Timur’s to-do list?
    #1 – Build pyramid of human skulls
    #2 – Launch skulls into beseiged town to scare the shit out of everyone
    #3 – Sack town – kill everyone – men, women, children (don’t forget to save new skulls for the next town)
    #4 – Have a Light Brunch

  332. Laura July 8, 2010 at 3:36 pm #

    You’ve pretty much described my tea party as well.
    In 2006 and 2007 I counted myself part of the tea party movement. Those tea party protests included costumes and music from the revolutionary period, proclamations referencing the Declaration of Independence, and ceremonial tea crates (dumped temporarily into Santa Monica Bay, Boston Harbor, Lake Michigan, etc…) The crates symbolized the Iraq War, the Occupation of Afghanistan, the PATRIOT Act, Military Commissions Act, Homeland Security, NAFTA, the Federal Reserve, open borders, the CIA, the IRS, …the 9/11 Commission Report, etc…
    I’m guessing you would have felt more comfortable with that incarnation the tea party protest. …I know I did.
    Since then the tea party movement abandoned its Ron Paul Revolution and 9/11 Truth roots. Sadly, Glenn Beck and his magic pipe diluted the movement with xenophobes, reactionary haters of “liberals”, lovers of the American Empire, worshipers of military dominance, and the generally ill read. (Many do seem well intentioned; they are clear something is not quite right, but they are still too entrenched in their own ideology to see how that ideology contributes to the mess and the manipulation.)
    If I had any doubts about the demise and exploitation of the tea party movement, the inclusion of Neo-Con darling Sarah Palin and then the Neo-Conification of Rand Paul left me with zero doubt.
    So, I am down for your tea party …mine turned into crazy town.

  333. diogen July 8, 2010 at 3:39 pm #

    “We all need to be prepared for the idea that the human species is an evolutionary dead end.”
    Hancock, I just don’t think so. Sure, we’ve overextended our environment’s carrying capacity, we destroyed many of our life-support eco-systems, and it’s hard to see how we can avoid great reductions in our numbers at some point in the next 10-50 years. But we as a species we are incredibly resourceful and inventive, and some of us will adopt and survive, and who knows, maybe even achieve new heights in enlightenment. I sure hope so, otherwise it makes it all meaningless… No one knows the grand scheme of things, of course, but I like thinking that there’s a purpose and a reason to a man’s reign on Earth… hopefully one that will redeem us in the eyes of whoever/whatever exists 1000 years from now with an ability to reason and judge good from evil…

  334. asoka July 8, 2010 at 3:44 pm #

    diogen said: “We’re not infallible of course, but neither are we as flawed as you say we are.”
    Morally-challenged and fatally flawed. It is not the case that all humans do or have done what American leaders have done.
    Harry Truman was the first Southern Baptist in the White House and he was White and he was Anglo-Saxon and he was Protestant. In other words, he was a WASP.
    WASPs are the only people in human history, after the discovery of nuclear weapons, to use nuclear weapons on civilian population centers, twice!
    Many nations have had nuclear weapons, and they have possessed them for decades, including nations at war (Israel, India, Pakistan, etc. but they are not WASPs)
    Only one people, the WASPs, have been so morally depraved as to use nuclear weapons to incinerate other human beings.

  335. diogen July 8, 2010 at 3:46 pm #

    Asoka, if you build your adobe house, you will invest your labor in it. If you don’t own the results of your labor, you’re a slave. It doens’t matter if you do it jointly with others, and to it on rented a borrowed land. If you don’t believe in owning the results of your labor (even owning jointly with others), then it’s legit for a guy with a bigger club to throw you out and take possession of the results of your labor, which would make you a slave. After all you said about slavery, it’s AMAZING you want to be a slave. This is what happens when you make irrational statements, sooner or later you start tripping over them.
    I’ll give you the same advice I gave to Vlad, forget all the transgressions of all the people in the past, forget about white slavemasters and black slaves (and about black and muslim slavemasters too which you never mention). Forget about Germans and Jews, forget in the sense of it having any bearing on the present and the future.
    Move on, man, and do something productive, like grow some potatoes on some borrowed land 🙂 And if you do it, it will be your property and no one elses, and you can choose to give it to the food bank, but o one has the right to take it from you, that would be a violation of your basic human right.

  336. diogen July 8, 2010 at 3:51 pm #

    Asoka said “Only one people, the WASPs, have been so morally depraved as to use nuclear weapons to incinerate other human beings.”
    Asoka, your inability, or unwillingness, to see and understand nuance and complexity, role of circumstances and chance in history is astonishing.
    I have to conclude that like Vlad you intentionally twist, distort, misinterpret history, ignore all outcomes and selectively choose only outcomes that confirm your current thesis, etc. In other words, as I said before, you’re not an honest commenter here, in fact you’re intellectually dishonest and disingenuous. You’re a fraud.

  337. Qshtik July 8, 2010 at 3:55 pm #

    A recurring theme in these hallowed halls seems to be one of entitled protection of our “ownership.”
    Tripp, to what year, month and day should the ownership borders of the world be reset to make things fair and square? How about Feb 5, 1073 AD? Or maybe some date in 13,000 BCE? And what about the empty lands that people later walked into and claimed as their own? All null and void?
    Do you believe the title search done on your little place in Macon was meaningless and the whole notion of ownership is bogus?

  338. Hancock1863 July 8, 2010 at 3:55 pm #

    You badly misrepresented Cash’s words in this post, which invalidates the point you made in your post.
    You said:

    Still, when someone looks into the future and says something like this, to justify a war:
    “it looked like Soviet territory and its people would end up as slaves to the Nazis.”
    I am always mystified. Their powers of prediction are so acute. They know what will happen in the future if there is not a war. The entire world will be enslaved, if there is not a war! Or exterminated, if there is not a war!

    I went back to check Cash’s post and it’s quite clear that’s not what he meant by that line. He was refrring to what people though long after the war had begun, and the Nazis were crushing the Soviet early on. It was NOT a pre-war justification.
    Slow down there, pal. Digest other people’s words before you think of counterattacking. It will avoid messy mistakes like the one I just pointed out.
    Ironically, of all those wars you speak of, most of which were unneccessary, in THIS case the opposite was true and people DIDN’T see it. Hitler DID want to enslave the world and ethnically cleanse it.
    To heap even more irony on it, many of the wars of choice we have had since then have exploited the fact that the threat of Hitler WAS real that time, and so we shouldn’t make the same mistake of waiting too long before tackling it.
    Not least of which is the Iraq Invasion. Triple down on irony? Bush emulated Hitler’s “Big Lie Strategy” against Poland in almost exactly the same way when he used the “Big WMD Lie” against Iraq. (in Poland’s case it was the dastardly attack on the German Radio Station – carried out by Germans dressed in Polish uniforms)
    Even as Bush was emulating Hitler’s propaganda strategy, he was shouting to the world that Saddam was just like Hitler and thus had to be stopped.
    (this does not mitigate the fact that Saddam was an evil murdering bastard for whom hanging was too good)
    In both cases, anyone who was paying attention at the time could see through each lie. In both cases, the Hitler/Bush propaganda strategy worked, even though both were transparent frauds.
    But, to circle back to the beginning, you grossly misinterpreted Cash’s words.
    Sometimes war IS necessary, just not very often.

  339. asoka July 8, 2010 at 4:01 pm #

    Asoka said “Only one people, the WASPs, have been so morally depraved as to use nuclear weapons to incinerate other human beings.”
    diogen said: “In other words, as I said before, you’re not an honest commenter here, in fact you’re intellectually dishonest and disingenuous. You’re a fraud.”
    diogen, ad hominem attack does not advance the conversation.
    It simply gives the impression that you were unable to deny a simple statement of fact: historically other nations have had the weapons, and yet only WASPs have dared use nuclear weapons to massively destroy civilian population centers and burn other people alive … and then repeat the atrocity three days later.

  340. Cash July 8, 2010 at 4:02 pm #

    You are forgetting something Asoka. Buchanan makes the same mistake. World War 2 was not under American or British or French direction. Stalin was not going to do your bidding. Neither was Hitler. Both invaded and butchered Poland regardless, whether war was declared or not.
    Buchanan puts too much emphasis on events in western Europe, maybe out of American vanity. But western Europe was a sideshow. The main event was the fight between the Nazis and the Soviets.
    Hitler’s attack on the USSR and the Soviet response were out of Roosevelt’s and Churchill’s control. Nothing they could do about it, no way to avert it.
    From the perspective of 1941/42 there was no way to know if the USSR could survive Hitler’s onslaught. What happened afterward, the eventual Soviet victory, their occupation of Eastern Europe was out of American or British control notwithstanding Buchanan’s fantasies of British/ American omniscience and omnipotence.
    Buchanan judges actions in the 1930s and 1940s with the benefit of hindsight. He is talking as if that hindsight was available to people then. It was obviously not. He is also talking as if all the actions and events were under American direction. They were not. The US was one power among many.
    Enslaving eastern Europeans was not the aim. Nobody could know that was going to happen. How could they? Nobody even knew if the Soviet Union would survive Germany’s invasion, never mind prevail.
    Some facts about the Nazis though are stubborn things. They butchered six million Jews, Gypsies and others in massive death camps. They killed 20 million Soviets. And this after the Soviets and Germany had a non aggression pact. So much for diplomacy. Didn’t matter what American policy was or the British or anyone else’s, Hitler and the Nazis did what Hitler and the Nazis were going to do. Same with Stalin.

  341. asoka July 8, 2010 at 4:04 pm #

    “Slow down there, pal. Digest other people’s words before you think of counterattacking. It will avoid messy mistakes like the one I just pointed out.”
    Point taken. I am going to slow down now.
    So, WW2 was necessary. What about WW1? It was the “war to end all wars”! I will never be taken in by whatever justification is given to promote war. War is terrorism.

  342. diogen July 8, 2010 at 4:05 pm #

    And Asoka, you’re a racist. I’ve been taken in with your occasional reasonable posts and given you a benefit of the doubt, and preferred to focus on the areas I agree with you, but i won’t make that mistake again. In fact, you’re the worst kind of racist, one who condemns one expression of racism and demonstrates another form of it. Like Hutus and Tootsies both, you have no claim to justice and peace. Goodbye.

  343. asoka July 8, 2010 at 4:06 pm #

    “You are forgetting something Asoka. Buchanan makes the same mistake.”
    I should have known quoting Buchanan was only going to create trouble for me.

  344. asoka July 8, 2010 at 4:09 pm #

    “In fact, you’re the worst kind of racist, one who condemns one expression of racism and demonstrates another form of it.”
    Don’t be shy now.
    Tell me how you really feel.
    I think this conversation has officially broken down … and is no longer civil … at least from your side.

  345. diogen July 8, 2010 at 4:14 pm #

    Let’s not forget that the Nazis also caused the deaths of 6-8 million Germans (both civilian and military) as the result of the war they unleashed.
    Had it not been for the enlightened Americans and Europeans who defeated them and then rebuilt them, had it been Russians who defeated them, that could’ve been the end of the German nation. Think about it Vlad, the Nazis almost caused the complete and irrevocable annihilation of the German nation!!!! History is full of paradox AND irony…

  346. Qshtik July 8, 2010 at 4:20 pm #

    Oops! “word” So dock me half a point. (that was a typo, unlike road, which wasn’t a typo, but choice of wrong word)
    There are 4 keys between D and K so if your mistake was a typo you must have exceptionally thick fingers. In any case mine was the wrong word so congratulations on the catch. No doubt you’ve warmed the hearts of many clusterfuckers.
    Yesterday in someone’s post I spotted the word jive which should have been jibe. I decided not to mention it since I’ve plowed the jibe field so many times before. That was a big mistake. I didn’t sleep a wink.

  347. diogen July 8, 2010 at 4:21 pm #

    “Hitler DID want to enslave the world and ethnically cleanse it.”
    So, the relevant question for us today then is, how is it that an enlightened, educated nation gives power to a paranoid ego-maniacal madman and follows him off the cliff (while pushing millions of others off the cliff in the process)?

  348. asoka July 8, 2010 at 4:27 pm #

    And let’s not forget the “Universal Soldier” lyrics:
    “without him how would Hitler have condemned them at Dachau”
    Without soldiers ready and willing to obey orders, people like Hitler can do nothing.
    Wars will cease when we refuse to fight them.

  349. Cash July 8, 2010 at 4:28 pm #

    I don’t know what happened to Italians. I guess their character changed over time.
    Italy is so beautiful, I weep thinking about it. I wonder if Italians really appreciate it. I’ve never seen anything like the colour or quality of the sunlight. I’ve been there a few times and I can’t get over it. Have you ever been to Assisi? It was like being in a renaissance painting.
    I’ll see if I can find that book.

  350. Cash July 8, 2010 at 4:44 pm #

    Let’s not forget that the Nazis also caused the deaths of 6-8 million Germans (both civilian and military) as the result of the war they unleashed. – Dio
    Good point.
    Good point also about the rebuilding. Can you imagine what a huge effort of goodwill, wisdom and forbearance it must have taken to rebuild instead of incinerate Germany. Also, after the war to accept so many German immigrants to the US and Canada. Would have been easy to say forget it, why would we accept people that caused so much death.
    I read somewhere that what to do with Germany was a real dilemma ie make one country, two countries, three countries? I guess the Soviet occupation of the east partially settled that question.
    History does have a rich sense of irony.

  351. Cash July 8, 2010 at 4:46 pm #

    So, the relevant question for us today then is, how is it that an enlightened, educated nation gives power to a paranoid ego-maniacal madman and follows him off the cliff (while pushing millions of others off the cliff in the process)? – Dio
    Great question. If it happened once it can happen again.

  352. diogen July 8, 2010 at 4:51 pm #

    I spent some time in Italy when I was young, and I wished i were an italian so i could have stayed.
    Once I was told by a street musician in Rome whom i befriended that I should go to Calabria and visit his family. I went, a tiny village clinging to the cliffs. I told the first person I met, in a mix of German and italian, that I was a friend of Luigi Alfarano (or similar sounding surname, can’t remember exactly). They received me like I was a visiting royalty, had a feast for me that the whole village (it seemed) attended, fed and housed me for days until I couldn’t take it any more 🙂 The funny thing was we could not communicate, they spoke a dialect that didn’t quite seem italian, and they didn’t understand German or English.
    I know there’s a lot of poverty and crime in Southern italy, but as John Fante said in “1933 Was a Good Year” (another book I recommend), it was a “sweet kind of poverty”… I also recommend the movie “A Casa Nostra”, a great insight into modern Italy, and the two things that are killing it, corruption and materialism…

  353. george July 8, 2010 at 5:02 pm #

    Judging by events unfolding in Washington or Ottawa I doubt our idiot leaders even know what “peak oil” is, let alone coming up with a coherent plan for dealing with it. As John Perkins wrote in “Diary of an Economic Hit Man” we’ve become too accustomed to cheap energy, easy credit and military action to make any sensible transition out of this clusterfuck. Another excellent post JHK. When are you going to get serious about running for President?

  354. Cash July 8, 2010 at 5:06 pm #

    Only one people, the WASPs, have been so morally depraved as to use nuclear weapons to incinerate other human beings. – asoka
    Asoka, I’d be interested to know what you think the alternatives might have been.
    Please do take fair, careful and reasonable account of historical circumstances at the time such action was taken.
    Also, try not to quote people like Buchanan. Causes nothing but trouble.
    I in turn will feel free to shoot cannon holes through your reply if I think it’s full of shit.

  355. diogen July 8, 2010 at 5:12 pm #

    “JHK. When are you going to get serious about running for President?”
    Unfortunately, JHK alienates half the U.S. population by continuing to make derogatory (defamatory?) remarks about the Southerners as if all or even most Southerners were the same. TLE is going to be hard enuff without us putting barbed wire on the fences we already built between ourselves. I’m compelled by most of the Kunstler’s ideas and thoughts, but it really ticks me off when he scapegoats Southerners or any other group. Come on Jim, there are culturally-retrograde folks in your own backyard of the North-East (including NY) that are no different from the Southern retrogrades in their mindless fossil-fueled abandon and their lack of civility… Focus on individuals, not groups… this will help me see you as a much more credible guy… Why be self-defeating? I hope you’ll never repeat the yeast-people folly…

  356. asoka July 8, 2010 at 5:28 pm #

    Cash, before we start this, I need to know if you plan to use a crystal ball that informs you how many allied lives “would have been lost” if we didn’t use the bomb? Can you see into the future? Can you know for certainty what alernative futures might have resulted?
    More importantly, do you believe the ends justify the means? Do you think the murder of hundreds of thousands of unarmed innocent men, women, and children is justified to save the lives of active combatants who are armed and can defend themselves?

  357. asoka July 8, 2010 at 5:30 pm #

    CORRECTION: Can you know for certain what alternative futures might have resulted?
    Gotta slow down, like hancock1863 said.

  358. george July 8, 2010 at 5:55 pm #

    The late, great Jackie Gleason liked to say that the past is better remembered than it was lived. Truth be told. there was nothing innocent or even sweet about the world our grandparents’ generation grew up in back in the 1930’s. 1933 was a terrible year to be alive unless you were part of the fortunate few whose wealth and privilege insulated themselves from the grinding reality of hunger, unemployment and state-sponsored terrorism that was a part of the fabric of daily life for anyone else who posed a threat to the old order or happended to be black, Jewish, or racially “inferior.”

  359. progressorconserve July 8, 2010 at 6:03 pm #
    Excerpts from this website.
    Here’s a quick question. Which is the most energy efficient form of transportation from Washington, DC to New York City: a car with two passengers, an Amtrak train full of people, or a loaded bus?
    The standard for comparison across modes of transportation is “passenger miles per gallon
    Amtrak averages approximately 30 passenger miles per gallon, assuming that every seat is occupied
    But the winner in this competition is the bus, with a range of 130 to 200 passenger miles per gallon
    So for JHK’s tea party…..that started this whole discussion thread…..buses beat trains!!
    And they all run on real diesel fuel, a non-renewable, environmentally damaging material

  360. diogen July 8, 2010 at 6:22 pm #

    Alfalfa and Timothy Grass.
    I’m baffled why is it that no one put PV panels on the roofs and hoods of hybrid cars yet? True, it wont’ supply 100% of the energy needed, but I’d think on sunny days it can provide 20%? 25%? It doesn’t have to be all or nothing, ya know…
    I know Kunstler believes any kind of car technology is doomed, and I agree with the reasoning behind it. However, it will be a cold day in hell when Americans give up their cars, so I’m hoping that electric and hybrid technology can bridge a gap between now and agreeable downscaling… which is preferable to disagreeable downscaling 🙂

  361. progressorconserve July 8, 2010 at 6:35 pm #

    Genuine native Southerners are pretty hard to bring to anger. I’m speaking of those born prior to 1960 who lived in the “separate but equal” era and then lived through desegregation….them and most of their children.
    When you have lived in a society that has been “under stress” like that you develop a veneer of politeness. (shut up, Q, I’m not sure I’m done with you yet, you jackass!) This leads writers like JHK to use the South as a a proxy for things he can’t put into words or does not want to keep repeating.
    I’m pretty sure JHK fears the South more than the South fears him.
    It is remarkable how many Southerners have signed in this week to compliment or thank Jim for the blog.
    Maybe he better find a new patsy…I mean proxy.

  362. diogen July 8, 2010 at 6:42 pm #

    Speaking of cars, in 1977 I had a Datsun B210 which was getting 38 MPG. It was a carburated engine.
    With today’s computer fuel injection that car could get maybe 50 mpg, and if combined with a hybrid-electric motor maybe 70-80 mpg? True, it didn’t have the anti-pollution and safety equipment of todays cars, nor A/C, but still… If we could ship all the unnecessary trucks and all SUVs and Minivans to Mexico and Americans would buy cars like FIT and YARIS with Hybrid powerplants, we could stop importing petroleum (according to some PO website I read) and enriching the worst regimes on Earth…
    I understand we all can’t give up cars yet, but we CAN give up trucks, SUVs and Minivans. I have a FIT (35 mpg) and I pull a 4’x8′ trailer when I need to transport stuff, I got it from Harbour Freight for $180.
    The picture doesn’t show the sides, I built it with 2×4 and plywood. Beats the truck any day, easier to load/unload, folds when not in use, way cheaper, etc.

  363. progressorconserve July 8, 2010 at 6:49 pm #

    our posts are crossing….
    However, it will be a cold day in hell when Americans give up their cars, so I’m hoping that electric and hybrid technology can bridge a gap between now and agreeable downscaling… which is preferable to disagreeable downscaling 🙂
    AGREED, D, all around…
    I’m not sure where the push comes from to “get Americans out of their cars.” It is part of an “urban utopia” idea that, IMO, is only kicking the energy can down the road.
    A compact hybrid that gets 50 mpg with 4 people in it beats trains and buses at 200 passenger miles/gallon. Plus it can carry cargo, keep the cell phone private, keep the baby from puking….you get the idea.
    And it’s MORE efficient than a train…go figure.
    There is not PO advantage to switching from cars to trains. Airplans suck, however, from an efficiency standpoint….I’ll try to find some figures.

  364. diogen July 8, 2010 at 6:50 pm #

    “Maybe he better find a new patsy…I mean proxy.”
    Yeah… I recommend Visigoths or Ostrogoths, no one likes these rascals, and I’ve never met an honest Scythian yet! And everyone knows Icelanders want to dominate the world, that nasty volcano eruption is their warning shot, and they have plenty more where that came from.

  365. Funzel July 8, 2010 at 8:20 pm #

    I see you pea brains are back at your favorite subject,Hitler and the Nazis,while you are being led to the slaughter house.

  366. asoka July 8, 2010 at 8:37 pm #

    JHK wrote this week: “…you end up with a political culture favoring military adventures abroad and pushing citizens around at home on matters of social behavior…”
    And we are discussing exactly how people get led.

  367. asia July 8, 2010 at 8:47 pm #

    the ownership of the land his house rests on?
    any sympathy for those literally owning land on the southern border?

  368. femme July 8, 2010 at 8:47 pm #

    Hi Deblonay,
    Another Australian here. The tilt train is great just a shame it is so expensive, especially for families. It is cheaper for us to travel on the roads even though I have heard the road south to Brisbane was badly damaged with recent floods and many parts have not been repaired. The speed limit is 80 km /hr for long stretches I have been told. We travel north this year for holidays, to visit elderly parents.
    Heard on the news that some idiot in Bowen has poisoned most of the tomatoe seedling for growers and so tomatoes will peak at $10.00 a kilogram. Glad I have some plants in now and seedlings ready to go in when we get back from holidays.

  369. asia July 8, 2010 at 8:51 pm #

    heres a little true story:
    I knew a woman who worked for the head of a large music company on the east coast. [so it wasnt mr geffin].
    he was jewish and closet gay, wife and kids for a cover.
    This woman was non white and non jewish. after awhile even she had to admit the music biz was owned/ run by jews.
    as far as population goes…like i said usa populations increased by 50% in about 35 years!!!!

  370. asia July 8, 2010 at 8:55 pm #

    you are entitled to yr paradigms and hopes but the future looks like yugoslavia, once the rule of law [ and the food that the commies distributed] disappeared.
    2 religions and 3 ethnic groups, killing each other off.
    then albright and clinton started dropping bombs and put in the largest us base since ww2!!!
    presumably to look for oil in the caspian sea.

  371. asia July 8, 2010 at 9:10 pm #

    remember H. Clinton and her o so bogus ‘ bill of childs rights’ or somesuch?

  372. asia July 8, 2010 at 9:12 pm #

    other than doin what tripps doin, any suggestions?
    at least we are not at the TV when we are here.
    i see tv at the gym and its scary.
    tonite was ‘dr’ phil and 2 frigid sisters.
    to me it was pure voyurism but masked as ‘therapy’

  373. asoka July 8, 2010 at 10:01 pm #

    other than doin what tripps doin, any suggestions?
    You mean other than all the suggestions I have made?
    Get a vasectomy and don’t bring children into the world.
    Change lightbulbs to LED bulbs (not CFLs, which contain mercury)
    Cut the military budget in half since the military is the most wasteful user of oil.
    Downsize your home to cut down on heating and cooling costs (or do passive solar with adobe)
    learn how to fast and lessen food intake.
    Become a vegan (saves more than buying a Prius)
    Or become vegetarian.
    I’ve been making suggestions all along to deal with lessening resource depletion, lessening overpopulation, and lessening environmental degradation. And trying to get folks to treat the earth and human life as sacred (with no excuses for “necessary” wars).
    I’ve also given links to co-housing, tiny housing, simple living, and minimalist living web sites. But I get the impression people do not really want to change, just read stuff on the internet.

  374. asoka July 8, 2010 at 10:08 pm #

    CORRECTION: But I get the impression people do not really want to change, just read stuff on the internet. AND WHINE ABOUT BORDER SECURITY AND MEXICANS.

  375. lpat July 8, 2010 at 10:54 pm #

    Here’s to immigration reform, the free market and the individual rights of the bourgeois Tarzan cum übermensch:
    “In the highlands of Papua New Guinea, several villages rest on a man-made island literally surrounded by an open pit gold mine and its expanding waste dumps. As the waste dumps have grown, they’ve devoured homes, schools, and most of the areas once used for gardening, making the indigenous population rely on money to acquire food while crowding them into increasingly squashed living quarters. At the same time, these same communities – the original landowners of the mine site – are criminalized for what the company calls “illegal mining,” a practice of panning for gold that the local community considers its birthright.
    “This so-called illegal mining is used by the company as a pretext for detentions, killings, and even the burning down of an entire hillside of homes*. Meanwhile, public funds are diverted from schools and hospitals to deal with “law and order” issues and the construction of a multi-million dollar fence to surround the mine site.
    “This scenario – the protection of the have’s from the have-not’s by a process of criminalization, militarization and the construction of walls – is an all-too-familiar response to the social issues created by global capitalism and colonization. Immigration policies criminalize people, militarize borders, and separate communities along boundaries set up to trap people in an economic reality that conspires against them. Meanwhile, the developed nations that aggressively protect their borders against new entrants have created a global economic and military system that forces people out of rural areas that are then used by large industry to extract resources, be they cash crops, minerals, lumber, oil and gas, or the industrial infrastructure needed to produce and export these goods (such as dams, highways, and pipelines). This rural to urban migration turns cities into sweatshops with expendable labor and the corresponding rights, leaving few options for the dispossessed. Labor exploitation becomes codified inTemporary Foreign Worker Programs, where developed countries attempt to receive maximum benefit from the desperation of the world’s impoverished.”

  376. progressorconserve July 8, 2010 at 11:23 pm #

    Greetings to SNAFU and the atheists,
    This is part of a post way back upthread:
    But let me tell you, that if TS ever does HTF up here I’m going to be going to the little Baptist Church near the house. The deacons will welcome me by “Transfer of Letter” from the church where I was baptized over 40 years ago. I’ll bring in the whole extended family to find Jesus and we’ll have a new group of loving, trustworthy people who know these Mountains.
    There are no Atheists in fox holes.
    And SNAFU asked if I had ever been in a foxhole in combat. It’s taken me 3 days to answer. I’ve been busy….but not that busy.
    Short answer is no, I have never been in combat.
    I was 1-A with a bad lottery number when the draft ended. And now that I’m in my 50’s, S, you are correct that Nixon ending the draft was a bad move for the country.
    …Note to pacifists…let me deal with all these Atheists….then I’ll try to deal with y’all, if you’re interested…’cause this impacts PO.
    And universal service doesn’t have to be military….it can be any work….like the CCC during the depression.
    But at the time the draft ending was like a release from prison….sweet freedom!
    And then I up and volunteered for a branch of service in the mid 70’s…..I’ll save some of that for another week….
    My dad saw enough combat service in the Pacific for, me, you, maybe enough for Hell itself.
    It changed him some…may have shortened his life some.
    Although he lived quite happily into the 1980’s.
    Bottom line, I’ve got a good frame of reference on the military.
    Do not tell me the US does not need an excellent military….it only marks you as an fuzzy headed jackass….or a well reasoned pacifist…who can tell.
    Do not tell me the US needs this planet dominating monstrosity we have. Generally, that marks you as a “chicken hawk” or worse…who can tell.
    More later on the military……
    On to Christianity….and the “aged quote” above.
    I was born into a Christian culture, in a Christian home, State, County, City…all Christian. Negro families close by…yep, Christian.
    I could no more not be a Christian from birth than I could have not been a white supremacist…given the time and place of my birth.
    Vlad….still want to explore some racial issues eventually.
    Of course my racial views progressed with the times, and I’ve got a workable view on race that serves me well multi-racial Georgia.
    And my Christian views….who knows…I’ve tried them all. I’ve tried Atheism. Christianity is my default setting. “Simplify, simplify” H D Thoreau.
    Sorry, boys and girls, end of rant.
    OK try this for more excitement. Is it possible that the Book religions…religions of arabic peoples in a harsh desert environment.
    Are just not a good “fit” for the Eurasian gene pool and the rich environment of Europe and the Americas.
    MessianicDruid…any comments?
    Oh….. glad I reread before I posted. The foxhole is a metaphor in this story. All I meant was that if the S ever did HTF up here that the Brothers and Sisters at the Church down the road will welcome my family with loving, open arms. Which is a handy thing to have in your plans for TSHTF. All my adventures with Atheism and those other Faiths would be forgiven and forgotten.
    Hypocrisy….or coming back Home?
    That would be completely between me and my God.
    Peace Out!

  377. progressorconserve July 8, 2010 at 11:28 pm #

    Maybe you’re right. I’m not sure how no one has commented on your latest change of heart. I’ve just been watching and waiting with interest. It’s a principled stand for the Planet.
    Governors race in GA is looking pretty grim on the TV ads. Lots of immigrant bashing. I honestly think a secure n,s,e,w border might help “detoxify” the present situation. Then the Nation can work on humane proposals for the presently illegal…gotta hope.

  378. asoka July 8, 2010 at 11:59 pm #

    Good evening, Progressorconserve.
    I think I’ve got you pinned this time.
    You said:
    “Do not tell me the US does not need an excellent military”
    Then you said:
    “Christianity is my default setting.”
    You can’t be a Christian and support military solutions.
    The military is all about killing people and breaking things.
    Jesus Christ is all about LOVE: love your neighbor, love yourself, love God with all your heart, soul, and mind, and LOVE YOUR ENEMIES.
    Supporting the military is supporting the killing of enemies, not loving them, and killing them is the opposite of what Jesus taught.
    I will pray for your mortal soul, progress-or conserve.
    On Judgment Day, God is going to ask you two questions:
    Why did you support the military?
    What part of THOU SHALT NOT KILL did you not understand?
    You knew the Prince of Peace taught a different way and you rejected it by your actions.

  379. Hancock1863 July 9, 2010 at 12:46 am #

    CORRECTION: But I get the impression people do not really want to change, just read stuff on the internet. AND WHINE ABOUT BORDER SECURITY AND MEXICANS.

    In general, yep. There’s a few exceptions, like Tripp.
    James Lovelock himself, the creator of the Gaia Concept, has stated that the underpinnings of TLE including climate change are so far along already, that we’re already past the mathematic barrier so we might as well enjoy our time now.
    Which is, of course a bullsh8t rationalization.
    Homo sapiens. What can you do?
    By the by – what did you think of my little list of various races’ (other than White Europeans’) atrocities?
    Can you really say that the “horrible gene” is restricted to White Europeans and keep a straight face?

  380. progressorconserve July 9, 2010 at 12:51 am #

    Nice try, asoka, but now we’re dealing with words and words only.
    And just my immortal soul, not the fate of the Planet.
    I said earlier that humor and sarcasm don’t translate well on the open internet.
    Maybe I’m being too subtle.
    When I said Christianity is my default setting…
    I mean Firefox is my default browser, but I can still use IE.
    Your point is duly noted, though. I know the Christian Bible pretty well and I’m going through mentally not finding anything Jesus did that leads to a military. He did resort to violence once, though, as I’m sure you know; in Temple.
    And he (oops, He) did once kill a fig tree by cursing it.
    I had an uncle who would never point at a ear of corn with his finger….said he didn’t want to hex it…true story, but not useful here.
    The other night when I said to you, “I believe in nothing everything is sacred…blah, blah
    That was not, repeat not, a slam at your religion…we were having a secular discussion about peak oil and I was trying to hold you to a “point of order” in that discussion. Sorry if I offended.
    (q, real men can change their minds and or apologize….don’t you start up with me again, you hear me?)
    So my religion is personal, as I’m sure yours is. I know science, biology, geology, evolution…and I can hold all that knowledge in my head and still believe in Something Greater than myself. For me, it’s easier to believe in Something than it is to believe in Nothing.
    Maybe I’m just too lazy to be a Good Atheist!??

  381. Hancock1863 July 9, 2010 at 12:52 am #

    I am in complete agreement with you about Glen Canyon and the Damned Dam.
    Ed Abbey is a personal favorite of mine and your post on Glen Canyon, right up to Nixon’s glass of water to ease his fiery torments, was fantastic!
    Not to mention 100% spot on.
    Hope you come and hang around to see this much delayed reply!

  382. Vlad Krandz July 9, 2010 at 1:05 am #

    The Allies starved the German People at the end of both WW1 and WW2. The WW1 blockade was particularly horrific because it lowered resistance to the Influenza Epidemic.
    Ever hear of the Kaufman plan? Theodore Kaufman wrote a book proposing that all German males be sterilized once Germany was defeated. It was reviewed by Time magazine which gave it a glowing reccomendation. Goebbels found out and told the German People over the radio. This strenghtened their will to fight on to the bitter end – any chance of surrender was made impossible.
    Another Jew, Henry Morgenthau had another big idea – turn Germany into an agricultural state. This meant in effect, no Marshall Plan and little relief aid. It would have meant the deaths of millions of the German People. Several courageous Americans spoke out. I don’t remember his name, but one Senator actually went ballistic on the Senate Floor and said that Morgenthau intended genocide against the German People. Finally FDR distanced himself from the plan and said, Henry we have to give them something. If it wasn’t for these few courageous people, FDR might well have gone along with it. Morgenthau was furious that he had been used to float the idea out and then left as the patsy. No Stormfront here guys. You can easily research this one – and be shocked if you any consciences at all.
    Read Pat Buchanon’s new book “The Unnecessary War”. He’s part of a new and growing consensus that rejects much of the jingo propaganda of the time – which you still believe. Hitler had the deepest respect for Britain and the best wishes for the British Empire. His ambitions lay to the East. He had no ability to hurt America – and no desire to either if America left him alone. Hitler felt that between the New Germany and the British Empire, the White Race and Western Civilization could be adequately defended against the growing power of the East and the rise of Communism. And he predicted that if the British fought Germany again, they would lose their Empire. And in this he was correct. And he was also correct about the dire straits the White Man now finds himself in.
    You admire the leaders of the European Union? The ones who have surrendered Europe to Islam? They care nothing about our heritage – they only care about economics and Globalism. Say what you like about Hitler, I might even agree. But don’t lay this at his door. Europe would be doing far better than it is now if he had won.
    I know my perspective isn’t complete, but it’s an important but repressed viewpoint that needs to be heard. Look at Germany now: fiscally solvent and the de facto leader of Europe. Their old opponents Great Britain, a ruin of corruption, inflation, unemployment, Islamicization, and mutliculturalism. Yet Germans are still so self hating that they can’t even cheer their own flag at the World Cup.
    Germans need to learn the historical truth so they can love themselves again. Thus empowered, they will do what must be done as far as the Turks in their Country. The Truth? You know little facts like: Evil Germans boycotting Jewish shops! But you never hear the Jews had declared war on Germany years previously and had boycotted Germany economically for years causing great hardship. Like the Neo Cons (yes mostly Jews) did to Iraq. Where the Jews back then a Nation without borders? Do you think I made that up? Read your Herzl and Weitzman. Those are their words.
    Patton called the Nuremberg Trials Semitism run amuck. Prisoners were tortured and not allowed time to gather witnesses in their defence. This great warrior knew that what was going on had nothing to do with the magnanimity that is customarily given in the West to a fallen foe. The cruel trials, the no fraternization rules for soldiers, the starvation, all bespoke of the dominance of an alien culture. He also didn’t like the capitulation to the Soviets – like how the Americans were forced to wait so the Soviets could take East Berlin. He wanted to fight to the Russians right then and there. That may not have been wise, but that was his attitude. He planned to tell all upon his return to the States, but he was killed by a car on base – some say assasinated.
    I know “just history”. The whole Truth? No of course not. But rather an absolutely necessary counter measure to the Zionist Propaganda that has innundated our Cultre for the purpose of making us hate oursleves. Look what it’s done to poor Tripp. It works because it’s secular form of Christianity. We are wide open to it – the best people most of all.

  383. asoka July 9, 2010 at 1:22 am #

    OK, PC, you makes your choices and takes your chances.
    Let me help you out with Jesus and the military. Militarists will cite two Bible verses to “prove” you don’t have to be a pacifist to be a Christian.
    Once, Jesus said “I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword” (Gospel of Matthew 10:34)
    The other, of course, is the famous, “Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s; and unto God the things that are God’s.” (Gospel of Matthew 22:21)
    That is supposed to assuage your conscience about going through basic training to learn how to efficiently kill God’s children … and convince you that supporting the military is OK, even though there are hundreds of verses (the whole New Testament actually) that speak of LOVE, and only two ambiguous verses that could possibly be interpreted otherwise.
    The Temple incident was about moneychanging in a sacred place. The fig tree was a teaching parable.
    And I have tied all my anti-military diatribes to the LONG EMERGENCY because it is the most wasteful government enterprise in terms of oil consumption and it is breaking our budget and increasing our deficit, contributing to the economic collapse of the United States. Empires usually fall from within once they are spread too thin.
    And, for all the money we spend, we don’t have a first-rate military. They couldn’t beat pajama-clad Viet Cong, and in nine years they haven’t been able to defeat the Sunnis in Iraq or the Taliban in Afghanistan. The USA military has resorted to getting help from private contractors and to paying bribes to war lords to get the war lords to protect supply routes from attack. The USA military is corrupt and sucks at counter-insurgency.

  384. Hancock1863 July 9, 2010 at 1:25 am #

    diogen said: “In other words, as I said before, you’re not an honest commenter here, in fact you’re intellectually dishonest and disingenuous. You’re a fraud.”

    Sorry, but I think I agree with diogen a little, maybe alot.
    I’ve been reading this blog for quite some time, and I have caught you out several times flipping and dodging and using rhetorical trickery.
    Certainly your recent rapid about-face on immigration from last week to this week is disingenuous in the extreme.
    You’re certainly civil, and sometimes I agree with you, but I do await your reply on my little list of HUMAN atrocities and whether it made an impression on you.
    Will you be direct, forward and honest in your response? Or will you duck and dodge and counter-jab with a “Whitey’s still worse!”
    I am still willing to give you a chance. Don’t make this about agreeing or disagreeing with me. That’s not what this is about. This is about debating in good faith.
    That was what diogen was talking about. It’s what I am talking about.
    I await your reply.
    You could also mention on what’s up with your 180 degree turn about on immigration. Again, please don’t make it about debating your policy. Why did you change your stance and then flip 180 degrees back immediately?

  385. asoka July 9, 2010 at 1:37 am #

    Hancock1863 said: “Why did you change your stance and then flip 180 degrees back immediately?”
    Although I consider it distasteful, you are forcing me to quote myself, in order to defend myself from charges that I “changed my stance”.
    I did no such thing, and I will place in bold the pertinent part of my previous message:
    Your arguments are convincing and I feel myself wavering. Although I would like a world in which there are no borders, maybe the practical thing is to have borders right now.
    I know Qshtik says nobody ever convinces anybody with their arguments here, but in this case your arguments are about to change my mind.
    I am particularly vulnerable to arguments relating to overpopulation (that’s why I got a vasectomy) and I also understand the greater resource depletion by 1st world countries.
    Thank you both for presenting a different view on these issues.”
    Now, tell me. Where did I make a 180? All I said is I appreciate their arguments and I was considering them. I did not change my mind about immigration. I am not an “disingenuous” or a fraud”, as dio so delicately phrased it.
    Again, it is distasteful to even reply to these charges. I feel like Nixon saying “I am not a crook”

  386. Vlad Krandz July 9, 2010 at 1:42 am #

    You don’t think we gave Stalin lots of money for his war effort? I think facts would show otherwise. Also check out Operation Keelhaul sometime. On Stalin’s request, we deported hundreds of thousands of Russians and Ukrainians who had fought agaisnt him – the Whites in other words. Many of these men had fled to Allied Territory, some in time to help the war effort against Germany. We sent these men back to imprisoment and in many cases, certain death. That was unnecessary. That was despicable in the highest degree.
    Yes the Russians broke Germany at Stalingrad. Inevitably, much of Eastern Europe was going to be taken by them. But did we have to give it all up? Churchill was a weak player. And by all accounts, FDR seemed tired and sick at the Conference. It’s at least possible that parts of Eastern Europe could have been salvaged.
    When Prince Peter of Poland was told the fate of his counrty, he was aghast. FDR was annoyed at him and Stalin smirked enjoying his agony immensely. Only Churchill had the humanity to look down and redden in shame at the betrayal of an ally – whom they had betrayed at the begining to get the whole show underway.

  387. progressorconserve July 9, 2010 at 1:44 am #

    Tripp is certainly doing something.
    Individual action is a noble thing, but most people in the US are not able to get access to the soil to do things like that….yet?
    Plus there’s lots of hard grunt labor, even for a relatively small amount of food. I do it so I can be a store of knowledge up here…if I can get TS to wait several years before it HTF, maybe I’ll have something to help the neighbors get started.
    I think it is Wagelaborer who says that individual action will never be enough, though, and I believe he’s correct.
    We need group action. 6 BILLION PEOPLE on the planet, working on the problem of planetary survival…is a force that must be unstoppable.
    And my three things that I’m trying to push on here should be pretty well known by now.
    It seems so simple….we’ve got all these computers…just keep pushing…poking…thinking…prodding….maybe a door will open….somewhere on the planet and we can all go through.
    I’m sure if “we” make it 50 years and get populations stabilized, with renewable energy and sustainable food….50 years and we’re home free.
    It sounds so easy!
    I think I’m rambling, Better quit.
    BTW, Diogen, from earlier
    Large commercial airliners 95 passenger miles/gal
    I was surprised it was that good!
    And asoka…I’m Scotch Irish remember…I knew those verses…I was trying to think of “violent” acts that Jesus Himself committed.
    I can’t disagree with many of your criticisms of the military. I didn’t say our military wasn’t too big, too cumbersome, and improperly deployed.
    I said last week I would like to see it shrink 50% in real terms. That would have us like 5X stronger than the rest of Earth’s forces, combined. That seems like a reasonable margin of safety.
    Corrupt is a harsh and divisive word, applied to the men and women under arms. I’m thinking at takes a “private” corporation like Halliburton to do mil spec corruption and really steal the billions.

  388. pax1728 July 9, 2010 at 1:51 am #

    I love reading your commentary, and in my first year in New York I can understand your statements.
    I think, however, I’ll stand by the immortal Padmasambhava and declare, ‘My Country is the Ultimate Sphere!’
    While it would be great to distance ourselves from other cultures even Pliny the Elder was awestruck by ‘what our luxuries and women cost us’ from ‘India, China and the Arabian peninsula’. Much of the disaster that is Mexico has to do with NAFTA and Larry Summer’s brilliant ideas as Clinton’s Treasury Secretary.
    While I’d love to join your tea party spirit, many Americans would do better to jump ship. I have met so many unemployed, seriously talented people in New York. Some of us have useful skills which would be much better employed outside of the corporate world.
    If too many of us flee at the same moment we’ll create another Liberia… but the right people might have a positive impact on another country. Instead of building rockets and missiles, maybe this time the diaspora can create something truly positive. It may be time to admit this country is beyond saving.
    Keep up the good fight, and have a good night!

  389. progressorconserve July 9, 2010 at 1:54 am #

    Take it easy on A.
    Everybody missed this earlier in the evening.
    It’s for the planet, A. It’s worth it!
    I think you have done it! You have me trapped and I cannot argue my way out. I tried and tried to think of a logical response to you until I fried my brain and the wavering stopped.

  390. Vlad Krandz July 9, 2010 at 2:01 am #

    Another good idea is to take off shoes and go barefoot on the grass. Some of the yogis say that shoes insultate us agaisnt the energy from Mother Earth. I’ve been trying it lately, and I can feel the energy coming right up from the ground. I don’t know about going barefoot on city streets, although I know a guy who does it. But maybe on country roads it would be more feasible. In any case, alot of toughening up would be required. For now at least I’m just enjoying the rush I get from the grass. On a more mundane level, shoes seem to shorten the calf and achiles tendon. I can feel them streching alot as I walk and run without shoes.
    I feel very close to you with all the anti-racist hatred being perpetrated on this site. As a fellow racist, I salute you. Just as the Nazis and Zionists collarborated, in the future White and Black Racists will collaborate to set up a Black Nation in the South stretching from southern Louisiana to Southern Georgia, with Atlanta as the capital. New Orleans can remain as a multi-racial/cultural city that attracts tourists. Blacks can decide on the residency of Whites living within their borders.

  391. asoka July 9, 2010 at 2:22 am #

    handcock1863 said: “But honestly, it isn’t just White Europeans who behave badly, it’s all humans who behave badly. It’s all humans who do these things.”
    I beg to differ.
    Indians, Muslims, Africans, etc. have all practiced some degree of slave-holding of neighboring or attacking members of nearby tribes.
    Only WASPs transported slaves across an ocean to build an entirely new country.
    Indians, Muslims, Africans, etc. have all practiced some degree of killing neighboring or attacking members of nearby tribes.
    Only the Spanish crossed an ocean to murder 15 million Indians in the Americas in a systematic campaign of genocide.
    Hindus, Muslims, and Jews all have nuclear weapons, but only Christians have used nuclear weapons against large non-combatant civilian population centers to destroy fetuses in mothers’ bellies, newly born children, infants, school children, women of all ages, and elderly, infirm, non-combatant men.
    You facilely say: “It’s all humans who do these things.” but it is not. Some specialize and systematize and are blood-thirsty. Others are not. Some renounce violence altogether and embrace nonviolence.
    It is not accurate to say “all humans” do these things. There are millions of Jains and Buddhists and Hindus who would take umbrage at your remarks.
    And there are entire cultures which have been nonviolent and not imperialist nor warlike at all.
    One that comes to mind is Ashoka the Great, the Indian emperor of the Maurya Dynasty who ruled almost all of the Indian subcontinent from 269 BC to 232 BC.
    A kind of early-day Smedley Butler, Ashoka embraced Buddhism from the prevalent Vedic tradition after witnessing the mass deaths of the war of Kalinga, which he himself had waged out of a desire for conquest. Just like Smedley he knew war first hand, but later had a change of heart.
    Ashoka dedicated himself to the propagation of Buddhism across Asia and was a devotee of ahimsa (nonviolence), love, truth, tolerance and vegetarianism. Ashoka is remembered in history as a philanthropic administrator.
    I guess my point is humans are not violent by nature. You cannot say “all humans behave badly”. Millions of Jains and practitioners of nonviolence are the proof.

  392. asoka July 9, 2010 at 2:36 am #

    Progressorconserve, good catch.
    The wavering stopped … on the side of welcoming immigrants.
    How could I do otherwise?
    It is what Jesus would do.
    Jesus welcomed “illegals” in His day and prostitutes and working class folk, and sinners and criminals of all sorts, being crucified between two criminals and forgiving them.
    Forgiveness is another theme that Jesus was teaching. People in the country illegally? Forgive them, not once, not twice, but 70 x 7.
    Matthew 5:44-45 is particularly pertinent, where Jesus says:
    But I tell you: Love the illegal immigrants and pray for those who wet their backs crossing the Rio Grande, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the Muslims and the Mexicans, and sends rain on both the documented and the undocumented workers.
    The most relevant verse is this one:
    “But if ye forgive not the illegal immigrants their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
    Jesus loves them, this I know, for the Bible tells me so. Jesus loves all God’s children.
    Are you going to side with God (forgiveness and love) or with the Arizona State government (persecution and deportation)?

  393. asoka July 9, 2010 at 3:04 am #

    handcock1863 said: “I’ve been reading this blog for quite some time, and I have caught you out several times flipping and dodging and using rhetorical trickery.”
    If you have been reading for some time, then you also must remember my quoting Emerson on foolish consistency and Whitman on paradox (holding two contrary positions simultaneously).
    If you have been reading a really long time, you may remember when I quoted Aristotle and went after Aristotelian logic which thinks a thing cannot be both A and not-A at the same time.
    If you interpret what I write as “rhetorical trickery”, even after I have openly stated my position with regard to reasoning, what can I do? For me reason is not the be all and end all, not a God.
    And you always have the option, like many who have decided I am an intellectual fraud, to skip my posts altogether.
    It is not obligatory that anyone read all the posts, or respond to all the posts. There will not be a quiz. We still have freedom in that regard.
    I have tried to explain my position, a position which does not out of hand reject irrationality. If that be labeled by you as “trickery”, there is nothing I can do to change your mind. My mind is at peace.

    Aristotle has defined man as a rational being. Man is not rational, and it is good that he is not. Man is ninety-nine percent irrational, and it is good that he is, because through irrationality all that is beautiful and lovely exists. Through reason: mathematics; through irreason: poetry. Through reason: science; through irreason: religion. Through reason: the market, the money, the rupees, the dollars; through irreason: love, singing, dancing. No, it is good that man is not a rational being. Man is irrational.

  394. progressorconserve July 9, 2010 at 3:18 am #

    You are a slippery little right brained guy.
    Words aren’t going to get the Planet out of this one, though.
    I encourage you to use your logical left brain in support of a secure border.
    And you will recall when we discussed how your post had been overlooked that I said the following to you.
    Governors race in GA is looking pretty grim on the TV ads. Lots of immigrant bashing. I honestly think a secure n,s,e,w border might help “detoxify” the present situation. Then the Nation can work on humane proposals for the presently illegal…gotta hope.
    So, a, letting you represent extreme liberalism, you offer nothing to detoxify the situation.
    I’ve been wondering for the past several years why men in the South seem tense.
    I thought maybe it was too much Fox news.
    But tonight I feel the hair on the back of my neck stand up ever so slightly.
    I’m home in Georgia. I’ve always known I would die here, although I am in no particular hurry.
    God help us.
    I’m done discussing this with you.

  395. progressorconserve July 9, 2010 at 3:32 am #

    In fact, A, I am through speaking to you altogether. This is a shame. I have learned much from you. You have great potential for good. At the present time, though, I can only consider you an active impediment to honest discussion on this website. Please do not reply to my posts. I will return the courtesy.

  396. asoka July 9, 2010 at 3:44 am #

    Vlad said: “As a fellow racist, I salute you.”
    And I salute you, but no fist bump, or as FOX might call it: “terrorist fist jab”.
    I am not proud of my racism, but I acknowledge it, and understand it grew out of my early experiences with Jim Crow.
    Although I come down hard on WASPs and have called them “white devils” in the past, I hope to someday be able to grow spiritually and stop being a racist.
    I used to be a Black separatist, but I have evolved to believing Black and White can co-exist in the same geographic space. Malcolm X’s pilgrimage to Mecca helped me see that and to repudiate Black separatism.
    The closer I get to death, the more I forgive Whites for their transgressions and move on. The older I get, the more I recognize that the hatred in my heart was only hurting me.
    I am trying to be open to different perspectives, including yours brother Vlad, and to celebrate both the differences and the similarities and be more accepting of others with whom I do not share the same skin color or beliefs.
    As the saying goes in Spanish: “De todo hay en la viña del señor…”

  397. asoka July 9, 2010 at 4:10 am