Message from Sponsor: McAlvany ICA

Visit this blog’s sponsor: https://icagoldcompany.com/

 

Support JHK on Patreon

 

If you’re interested in supporting this blog, check out the Patreon page.


Attention Movie Producers!
JHK’s screenplay in hard-copy edition

Click to order!

A Too-Big-To-Fail Bankster…
Three Teenagers who bring him down…
Gothic doings on a Connecticut Estate.
High velocity drama!


Now Live on Amazon

“Simply the best novel of the 1960s”


Now in Paperback !
Only Seven Bucks!
JHK’s Three-Act Play
A log mansion in the Adirondack Mountains…
A big family on the run…
A nation in peril…


Long Emergency Cafe Press ad 2

Get your Official JHK swag on Cafe Press


The fourth and final book of the World Made By Hand series.

Harrow_cover_final

Battenkill Books (autographed by the Author) |  Northshire Books Amazon


CFNKindle


emb of Riches Thumbnail

JHK’s lost classic now reprinted as an e-book
Kindle edition only


 

In the Valleys of Blog

by James Howard Kunstler

     The psycho-historians must be having a field day with all the “taper” chatter fogging the valleys of Blog. The topic certainly presents a sticky hairball of a compound dilemma to anyone who cares about the fate of the nation. If the Federal Reserve tapers its monthly purchase of US Treasury debt paper plus a nearly equal amount of dodgy mortgage foam frothed up by Washington’s housing bubble machine… well, then, the equity markets will tank, or so the theory goes. If they don’t taper, they’ll permanently disable the function of the financial markets, and possibly blow up the global currency system.

     Of course, they recently demonstrated that tapering itself is not necessary to move the markets; a rumor of tapering will get the job done.  But that’s a theory for the moment, too, because by so doing the markets may have already priced-in any actual taper to follow.  Meaning that such taper talk probably won’t work very well in repeat applications.

    Outside the fetid terrarium where US economists live, like skinks kept as pets by bankers, other forces are in motion. For instance, there’s the non-theoretical, non-financial economy, which is now apparently based on the trade in tattoos, and the journey by automobile from the nearly foreclosed home to the tattoo studio, and to the hamburgers, pizzas, and fried chicken thighs consumed on each end of the journey. Judging from the sheer number of tattoos-per-capita, one might think that a certain tattoo saturation point had been reached in this country, unless the market can be expanded, say, to maternity wards where newborns can get full “sleeve” and neck jobs on Medicaid.

     Over in Europe, the members of the EU are being eaten alive by a carnivorous sub-species of giant financial hairball, and another theory says that whatever “money” can get out of there (while the getting is good) will flood into the USA, and more specifically into those very equity markets spooked by the chatter of tapering QE. Perhaps Fed officials (and their pet skinks) are hoping that some of that “money” will sop up whatever US Treasury paper the Fed tapers off buying. (After all, who else would buy the stuff ?) That would only be plausible, though, if the interest rates went up, which they might anyway. But if they do they would turn around and bite the US Department of the Treasury on its fat butt by increasing the percent of government spending needed to pay interest on debt to a level that would effectively put the government out of business — in which case we’d be in the grips of the same carnivorous hairball that’s eating Europe, and then all that “money” would have to find yet another continent to flee to. You see how complicated it gets? This is giving me the vapors. Anyway, those interest rates on US Treasury paper would have to go up a fat lot to compete with the allure of an equity market frothing toward the 20,000 hash-mark.

     Personally, I would not encumber my view of things-to-come in such a rococo maze of theoretical conjecture. Rather, I would settle for the simpler diagnosis that we’re just flat fucked, having made all the wrong choices on just about everything for a very long time. Speaking of wrong choices, the smartest money in the betting pool for the next Fed chair pick shifted strangely last week to the lugubrious figure of Lawrence Summers, who was the longest of long-shots just a week before. This is the same Lawrence Summers lately on the payroll of CitiGroup and other institutions utterly dependent on Federal Reserve policy. They had to find a revolving door big enough for King Kong to push Larry through. This is the same Larry Summers who remarked not long ago that Quantitative Easing was not an effective way to stimulate the economy. Apparently he did not notice that QE is wonderfully effective for juicing the tattoo economy because it produces vast new quantities of citizens who perceive themselves to be losers.

            Mr. Summers will be entering the scene the way Vincent Price used to enter a Hammer Studio horror film — reliably delivering some deadly unpleasantness. I don’t think a more perfect figure might be found for piloting the garbage barge of American finance over a Niagara Falls of consequence.

Mehetabel_cover_thumb

My new book will crack you up. Git one (Click)

 

About James Howard Kunstler

View all posts by James Howard Kunstler
James Howard Kunstler is the author of many books including (non-fiction) The Geography of Nowhere, The City in Mind: Notes on the Urban Condition, Home from Nowhere, The Long Emergency and the four-book series of World Made By Hand novels, set in a post economic crash American future. His most recent book is Living in the Long Emergency; Global Crisis, the Failure of the Futurists, and the Early Adapters Who Are Showing Us the Way Forward. Jim lives on a homestead in Washington County, New. York, where he tends his garden and communes with his chickens.

653 Responses to “In the Valleys of Blog” Subscribe

  1. lsjogren August 12, 2013 at 8:28 am #

    No problem with the revolving door- Summers can easily fit through the one that they built for Tiny Tim Geithner.

  2. glassvegas August 12, 2013 at 8:32 am #

    Dumbed down America is about to get hit with a 2 by 4. It will come as a shock to most who continue to have their eyes wide shut: http://youtu.be/1z_AAn8RkSo

    • Neon Vincent August 12, 2013 at 9:00 am #

      A symbol of dumbed-down, tattooed America got hit by a metaphorical 2×4 (or should that be ‘clue by four’?) two weeks ago. The lead singer of The Bloodhound Gang, who are most famous for rapping about sex while dressing like animals who fling poo, got on the wrong side of Putin and the Russians by sticking a Russian flag down his pants. The Russians were outraged, and ran them out of the country. Based on the behavior in their most famous video “The Bad Touch,” the Russians should not have been surprised.

      http://crazyeddiethemotie.blogspot.com/2013/08/bloodhound-gang-makes-headlines-for.html

      Maybe that’s a metaphor for our times.

  3. SteveO August 12, 2013 at 8:32 am #

    It would ironic if Larry Summers was Fed chairman when the collapse he helped engineer happened. He might even have to take responsibility for something, probably for the first time in his life.

    I say, “give him the job”, and good luck to him.

    • kansas ham on wry August 12, 2013 at 8:51 am #

      Agreed – Summers is the Democratic equivalent of Bill Kristol, a person unerringly on the wrong side of every issue he ever had an opinion on. But I guess when you’ve got an IQ of a squillion, the grandeur of your internal monlogue is enough to drown out those pesky facts and an inconvenient reality. I’m all for a zesty round of schadenfruede, except for the fact that we’ll ALL pay for his pigheaded obstinacy.

  4. ozone August 12, 2013 at 8:34 am #

    Jim,
    It IS astounding, isn’t it?
    This collection of flim-flammerys has got to fall down from the sheer weight of assorted frauds, but which first?

    We have the race between Orwellian Stasi-state, a soon-to-be withering of cheap energy, death of viability via drought, and economic pretending squirming and screaming in its’ coffin.

    The first one to get its’ veil ripped away “wins” and determines an inexorable future, and which rocky road we’ll be driven down. (Talk about living in “interesting times”, whew!)

    • ozone August 12, 2013 at 8:40 am #

      BTW, this paragraph is one of the most tragically laughable that you’ve penned recently:

      “Outside the fetid terrarium where US economists live, like skinks kept as pets by bankers, other forces are in motion. For instance, there’s the non-theoretical, non-financial economy, which is now apparently based on the trade in tattoos, and the journey by automobile from the nearly foreclosed home to the tattoo studio, and to the hamburgers, pizzas, and fried chicken thighs consumed on each end of the journey. Judging from the sheer number of tattoos-per-capita, one might think that a certain tattoo saturation point had been reached in this country, unless the market can be expanded, say, to maternity wards where newborns can get full “sleeve” and neck jobs on Medicaid.” -JHK

      There must be “value” there, I guess. Keeping a sense of humor amidst all this dumbfuckery is going to be key, IMO.
      All Hail King Larry of Summer! Hip-Hip Hurrah! (…and the markets went wild.)

    • Neon Vincent August 12, 2013 at 8:46 am #

      “[A] soon-to-be withering of cheap energy”

      Despite the closing of The Oil Drum and the declaration that “Peak Oil is Dead,” there are people in the mainstream press who still write about Peak Oil. One of them is Brad Plumer of the Washington Post, who is part of the crew on Ezra Klein’s Wonkblog. Last week, he wrote about peak oil demand and the possibility that peak demand might actually happen before peak production. I think that might be a vain hope, but there are signs of it. One of Plumer’s other pieces last week was about the lowering of the fuel ethanol production goals because Americans are buying less gasoline, so there is less need for ethanol. Demand destruction is happening, just like it did during the 1970s and 1980s.

      http://crazyeddiethemotie.blogspot.com/2013/08/signs-of-other-peak-oil.html

  5. Arn Varnold August 12, 2013 at 8:43 am #

    Yeah, Summers and the ongoing, twisted, economic magical continuum machine.
    I liked your phrase, “we’re just flat fucked”, because no matter how it’s cut, that’s the result.
    JHK, I like your blog a lot; but shortly after my comment this forum will be taken far from the point of your hard work and efforts to educate the uninitiated.
    I really, truly, wish you would rein in the wasted souls posting here in a free-form diatribe about anything that happens to come to their twisted minds.
    You attempt to make serious points; but the lack of monitoring said posts results in chaos.
    You already know this; why the hell don’t you monitor your property?
    I’m not inclined to stick around this chaos and flame war mentality; if you don’t give a shit, then I’m gone.
    I’d just like to know…what’s your bloody point? I

    • HowardBeale August 12, 2013 at 9:05 am #

      Arn,
      Can’t count the number of times I’ve just read Jim and then went about my day. Surprise! You don’t have to go a weedin’, as the weeds magically go away, and yet there is Jim sprouting brilliantly above the fallow field the very next Monday.

    • K-Dog August 12, 2013 at 10:42 am #

      I once advocated that one must read the coal to find the diamonds below Jim’s article in the theatre of the bizarre.

      I don’t anymore. Find something else to do.

      To Howard’s comment I say your criticism would be valid but I ask. Have you really looked at the field yourself or are you saying the field is fallow from twenty thousand feet up.

      And there’s a conundrum in Howard’s advice and mine. It advocates exactly what an agent provocatur would want.

      Leaving something wanting in the advice.

    • And So It Goes August 12, 2013 at 11:18 am #

      Why do you let the flotsam and jetsam bother you.

      I see a lot of judgment in your post.

      Relax, will you, you are not so important that you will be missed from this blog.

      Take a breath and enjoy the value found here.

      • Arn Varnold August 13, 2013 at 8:09 am #

        You see a lot of judgement in my post?
        Oh my! And your not judging? FU!
        We all judge, all the time; get over it!
        And, get off your high horse of bullshit!
        Have a really good day… 🙂

    • sprezzatura August 12, 2013 at 6:05 pm #

      I suggest a feature to personalize one’s view: any subscriber can click on another’s name, and cause all the latter’s traffic to be elided from the former’s view of the comments.

  6. Carol Newquist August 12, 2013 at 8:49 am #

    The Dreadful Summers’ Wind

  7. Newfie August 12, 2013 at 8:51 am #

    Collapse ? Wait. There must be some mistake. We are on the threshold of travelling to the stars. Spaceport America is now open for business in the desert of New Mexico. Soon fleets of interplanetary spacecraft will be departing to colonize the cosmos.

    http://ca.news.yahoo.com/spaceport-america-readies-welcome-space-tourists-130855995.html

    (hahaha)

  8. Rex August 12, 2013 at 8:55 am #

    The real question I believe is this, can the powers that be, the fed and all, manipulate forever or will some sort of balance be restored due to natural forces of nature. I used to think that in time, reality would take over and this whole mess would collapse only to start fresh once more. I am not so sure any more. It seems to me that we live in a world that is completely fixed like a football game where upon victory, the winning team is informed by the ref that they lost the game because it is the team with the least points that wins.

  9. mdl17576 August 12, 2013 at 9:06 am #

    Good Morning JHK,

    Thank you for having Charles Hall on your podcast. It actually triggered a bit of nostalgia – he taught one of the classes I took as a student at SUNY ESF. I already had a crude idea about the connection between money and energy, but his lectures made me aware of peak oil. Once what peak oil means really sunk in my outlook and goals in life changed dramatically.

  10. Carol Newquist August 12, 2013 at 9:08 am #

    What’s more noteworthy about Summers is not his recent behavior, not that it should be dismissed, but rather his behavior a couple of decades prior in post-Soviet Russia. He was one of the architects of the great heist of the former Soviet State’s massive and lucrative assets by insiders turned Oligarchs virtually overnight…….you know, those truly productive assets that produce tangible products and wealth. Perhaps his appointment is appropriate, since the U.S. public assets are being primed to be auctioned on the cheap.

    http://www.cepr.net/index.php/blogs/beat-the-press/can-we-blame-larry-summers-for-the-collapse-of-russia

    Can We Blame Larry Summers for the Collapse of Russia?

    Between 1990 and 1998, Russia’s economy suffered perhaps the worst downturn of any major country that was not the victim of either war or natural disaster. The proximate cause of course was the collapse of the Soviet Union and the replacement of its system of central planning with a market economy. Larry Summers played a large role in shaping this transition, first as chief economist for the World Bank, then as the undersecretary for international affairs at the Treasury Department and later as the Deputy Treasury Secretary.

    Since Russia’s economy had been guided largely by central planning for close to 70 years, this transition would have been difficult even under the best of circumstances. However the actual transition was hardly the best of circumstances. Corruption infested every aspect of the privatization. Those with connections in the government were able to become billionaires almost overnight, as they were allowed to buy Russia’s businesses and resources at a small fraction of their market value.

    According to the World Bank, Russia’s government was paid just $8.3 billion from privatizing assets over the years 1990-1998, a period when most of its economy was turned over to private control. By comparison, Lukoil, Russia’s largest private oil company, had a market value of $268.8 billion on August 2, more than 30 times as much as the payments that Russia’s government received for all the assets it sold over this 8-year period.

    The data clearly show the devastation that this failed transition imposed on the Russian people. According to the United Nation’s Human Development Report, Russia’s per capita income fell by one-third between 1990 and 2000, a decline that dwarfs the falloff in the Great Depression in the United States. This had enormous consequences in the daily lives of the Russian people as the system of social supports that provided basic services collapsed with nothing to replace it. The Development Report shows a drop in life expectancy fell from 68 in 1990 to 65 in 2000, a drop implying that millions of people would be dying at a younger age than would have been the case a decade earlier.

    The Development Report has no shortage of grim statistics about the plight of the Russian people in the 1990s. (Those getting depressed by this story should know that Russia made rapid progress in most measures of economic and social well-being after breaking with the Summers agenda in 1998. By 2012, the losses of the 1990s had been more than completely reversed.) However, the question remains whether we can blame Larry Summers for this disaster?

    Of course you can blame Summers…..and everything he represents.

    • hineshammer August 12, 2013 at 3:17 pm #

      Carol, I have some ocean-front property in Wyoming for sale. Interested?

      • hineshammer August 12, 2013 at 3:17 pm #

        Sorry, left that in the wrong place.

  11. LifeSupport August 12, 2013 at 9:12 am #

    Totally with you on the tattoo thing.

    I never have been quite sure what to make of rising popularity of “body art”. The significance of what I’d call “real tattoos” — certain designs which identify the bearer as a bona fide member of some particular group — that I can understand. The right to bear such designs must be earned. Naïfs who decided that a Hell’s Angels “death head” might look sporty are reported to have learned the hard way that some organizations have special methods for enforcing the rules against infringement of what they regard as exclusive rights to the use of their insignia. Those who are recognized as having earned the right may obtain certain advantages. A young gang member entering State or Federal prison for the first time need not greatly fear his first night; all he has to do is flash his tats, and he’s all hooked up. Etc.

    When people who appear unlikely to have had much previous interest in Art exhibit a strong interest as long as the medium is ink on skin, and yet also appear unlikely to be true members of the outlaw class (warrior class, whatever), I have to assume that they are, at least in part, hoping to aquire some of that mystique, and the dubious “respect” which accompanies it, at relatively low cost: the tattoo artist’s fee and a bit of physical discomfort.

    But why? Can it be because they are afraid? That they know (intuitively, if nothing else) that it is increasingly likely that they will live to see a breakdown in social order unprecedented in this country? That they’re hoping some of that “body art” may act as a sort of armor by sending a message that says, “You can see from my tattoos that I’m all tough and shit, so don’t fuck with me”? I really don’t know. Something along those lines is just my best guess.

    • ozone August 12, 2013 at 10:48 am #

      Alrighty then!
      [Help yourself to] A heapin’ helpin’ of God-blessed ‘Murkin cul-chah:

      http://www.teamjimmyjoe.com/category/bad-family-and-tattoo-photos/

      Hey, it’s the ‘new economy’, so you’re required to gaze upon its’ wond’rousness. What have we learned today, kids?

      (If you read the comments section of this article on The Burning Platform, you’ll find Nascar-worship tats on some dumbfucks too! What could be more heart-warming?)

  12. Carol Newquist August 12, 2013 at 9:16 am #

    Speaking of tattoos and fantasies, I think Tattoo would make an excellent Federal Reserve Chairman, don’t you?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1x_QbVDlLbI

    • Karah August 12, 2013 at 10:15 am #

      Perfect show for these times in which we live!

      They don’t make them like Ricardo anymore….

      A tattoo is a scar. No matter how “pretty” or “holy” or “humorous” or “artsy” or “thoughtful” or “nature loving” the scar may be perceived by people the reality is you’ve taken something from yourself you can never get back – clean and clear living tissue that regenerates every 2 weeks. Women and men have fought for this miracle of baby skin well into their 70s evidenced by the trillions of dollars they spend on creams and discreet surgical solutions.

      Tattoo wearers are living billboards for “artists” who have no respect for life. Like wearing a pair of 6″ heels for hours upon days, the pain is ignored for the glory of being fashionable. Fashion is stupid and psychotic because it changes at the slightest breeze or whim or fancy with absolutely no kind of compassion for the human condition. Tattoos are a permanent aberration like a genetic abnormality. Why would anyone CHOOSE such a thing?

      Maybe they want to disappear into their surroundings like leopards or confuse their ideological predators like a zeal of zebras. Everything else in our “natural” environment is smeared with graphic ads and words trying to captivate our attention. These people feel lost, ignored or under-valued because they are plain, unexciting and white-bread making them prime candidates for exoticism. They will never be satisfied with what has been handed down to them nor enjoy any of the simple pleasures of life.

  13. progress4what August 12, 2013 at 9:18 am #

    Nice writing, JHK. You’re the only guy I know who can make a look at the possibilities and mechanisms of collapse become so goddam’ entertaining! And you do it every week.
    Freakin’ amazing! Thanks to you, as always.

    I do agree with “Van Arnold,” up the thread – that your work will be hijacked by a troll by day’s end.

    Strange thing is, there is only one individual responsible for the recurrent weekly damage. Big hint – it’s the individual who does a large amount of the posting every week. And “he’s” consistent in trolling views to the opposite of yours, JHK.

    I would ban “him” for pure commercial reasons related to blog readership and book sales.

    Because his supposed right to “free speech” is doing deliberate and malicious damage to your privately owned webspace.

  14. goat1001 August 12, 2013 at 9:40 am #

    Holy mackerel! The stock market is losing steam… It must be suffering from a taper worm!!!

  15. K-Dog August 12, 2013 at 10:18 am #

    New-found knowledge concerning the inner workings of brains, dog and humans both and I’m knowing to skip the rococo nonsense and to strait to the flat fucked reality. So what’s left to comment on but tattoos.

    I concluded that the tattoo economy can’t save us last week. I got to thinking of it. There is only so much skin in the world and if babies get tattooed there won’t be anything left to tattoo. Then dogs have to get shaved and I need my fur to stay warm. Under the skin the tattoo economy is just another band aid-infinite growth capitalist dead end. Another technical solution to tape together that which can’t be fixed.

    Other ways of living are possible, even more desirable but that would require those with an edge to share.

    Nothing new on my blog. No writers block, I just did not feel like turning my computer on all day Friday. Consequently no K-Dog green link at the end finishes this comment.

  16. MDG August 12, 2013 at 10:35 am #

    As a big fan of Vincent Price and Hammer Horror, I am compelled to set the record straight: Mr. Price did not do pictures for Hammer Horror. He is best known for his work with AIP.

    Given all that JHK has been writing about these last few years, I believe that Vincent Price’s advice from “The Tingler” is more than appropriate right now: “Ladies and gentlemen, please do not panic! But SCREAM! Scream for your lives!”

  17. sevenmmm August 12, 2013 at 10:47 am #

    Who knew those hairball eating pet skinks who are enhancing the tatto economy were on the top of the list of FED price checks!

  18. Piper Michael August 12, 2013 at 10:58 am #

    James,
    Good morning, and we hope you are getting well.

    You are still the king of eloquent elucidation mixed with the purely American mixture of the literate vernacular approbations for a culture awash in apathy, self delusion and enforced ignorance.

    Yes, we are indeed, so fucked…

  19. shastatodd August 12, 2013 at 11:23 am #

    i love your writings jim… but you seem obsessed with tattoo bashing.

  20. rube-i-con August 12, 2013 at 12:03 pm #

    ….still waiting for an answer, kunstler. what do you say to the fact that Germany, a country that uses massive amounts of power, i.e. is dependent on petroleum, produced HALF of its total power needs from solar panels for a few days in 2012. Despite getting 39 TIMES LESS SUNLIGHT per annum than the US.

    It was the equivalent of 20 nuclear power plants. Caused no pollution, didn’t require any drilling, fracking, massive capital expenditure.

    Square this with your allegation that solar and wind can’t fill the gap left by dwindling oil supplies. Now bitch.

    I love your silence, it tells me a lot about your so-called ‘peak’ arguments.

    we’re all waiting, it’s been three weeks now.

    peace peacenigs

  21. third_martini_banter August 12, 2013 at 12:03 pm #

    I hate tats as much as JHK, but when we passed through Saratoga Springs last April, we stopped in at what I suspect is the best espresso bar in town, on the main street of downtown. The young man who took our money and prepared our lattes was not only covered with “body art,” but had these appalling nose rings as well. Despite his horrifying appearance he was notably polite and friendly and gave us excellent service, and I was happy to give him a generous tip, which no doubt went straight to the pocket of his body artist.

    Life’s funny that way…

    • rube-i-con August 12, 2013 at 12:06 pm #

      yes, just my experience too, lots of tatted folks are real polite. makes you open your eyes and realize how preconditioned we are.

      lotsa young folks are doing the right thing. world’s getting better, don’t lissen to the nabobs out here.

      peace peaceniks

  22. Q. Shtik August 12, 2013 at 12:32 pm #

    Wow, 8 years it’s been.

    I first became aware of the existence of Lawrence Summers back in 2005 when he was the top dog at Harvard U. He caused a big flap when in a speech he suggested that there might possibly be innate differences between men and women that would account for men being dominant in various sciences…math etc.

    This, of course, was the height of political incorrectness (which endeared him to me at the time) and he wound up losing his position there.

  23. PuzzlerStill August 12, 2013 at 12:33 pm #

    Not many of us are waiting for a response to your ignorant question. Every time you post one of your cheerleader spews you just show your lack of basic knowledge — in this case physics and economics.

    Stating bad ideas over and over again does not make them good ideas.

    Give everyone a break and take your split personalities and split.

    • ozone August 12, 2013 at 12:50 pm #

      I’m wondering why everyone here didn’t take Rube-y’s advice and shag their butts down to the Perfect Portuguese Paradise of Brazil when he was yammering on about that for lo, those many years?
      Huh. Maybe some of us had actually been there before (like myself) and had a slightly different view on things that differed with Rube-y’s self-satisfied postcards.

      • Janos Skorenzy August 12, 2013 at 1:45 pm #

        Mornin’ Zone. You’re a big Paul Craig Roberts fan, right? I found an interesting quote while rereading Bork’s “Slouching Towards Gomorrah”: “Like German anti-Semitism, the demonization of the white male is an intellectual movement.”

        Paul Craig Roberts and Lawrence M Stratton, “The New Color Line”: How Quotas and Privilege Destroy Democracy”, p152

    • rube-i-con August 12, 2013 at 1:34 pm #

      still waiting for the explanation – in this case of physics and economics.

      peace peaceniks

  24. PuzzlerStill August 12, 2013 at 12:35 pm #

    My last post was directed at Rube-i-con, or whatever of his many names he was using, about solar and wind energy in Germany.

    • rube-i-con August 12, 2013 at 1:36 pm #

      yep, we got that.

      still waiting for your explanation – in this case based on physics and economics – rather than merely attacking the messenger.

      peace peaceniks

  25. Janos Skorenzy August 12, 2013 at 12:38 pm #

    Larry Summers had the chance to be a hero at Harvard. He correctly stated that women “may” (they are) less gifted at math and science then men are. The outrage was immediate and overwhelming. Instead of standing his ground, the ground of Truth, Summer caved. Not only did he apologize, but actually set up a new program to facilitate female students in the sciences.

    • Q. Shtik August 12, 2013 at 12:50 pm #

      Not only did he apologize

      I thought his “apology” was of the left-handed variety where he said he was sorry they were offended and sorry that they had misunderstood.

    • Whatnot August 12, 2013 at 4:42 pm #

      His comment about women was not why he quit. That was a made for the media beard.
      He played fast and loose with operating capital. Lost a bundle, causing lots of layoffs, and delaying expansion plans by eight years and counting.
      He will probably crash the Fed. Would that be a bad thing to do?

  26. Janos Skorenzy August 12, 2013 at 12:42 pm #

    Tatoos used to be just for circus people and other kinds of freaks and marginals. Now they’re everywhere. So have the tattoos become mainstream or has the mainstream become marginal?

    Some circus freaks are nice people but that doesn’t mean they aren’t freaks.

  27. Carol Newquist August 12, 2013 at 12:47 pm #

    How about the most recent, which is the updating of three of Al Gore’s key points in An Inconvenient Truth–the increasing annual swing in CO2 levels, the breakup of the Larsen B ice shelf, and the increase in strength and number of hurricanes, the last of which got in the news because NOAA predicted that the Atlantic hurricane season is on track to be very active, repeating its forecast from earlier this year.

    Don’t worry about CO2, an answer to it has been found. Nature Bats Last will have to shut down; the convocation will have to take their tissues and stress balls and go home.

    http://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/Governments-get-Excited-by-Hydro-Nano-Gas-which-Eliminates-all-Carbon-Emissions.html

    CO2 Breakthrough? New Gas Apparently Eliminates All Carbon Emissions

    HydroInfra Technologies, based in Sweden, claims to have developed the answer to greenhouse gases and fossil fuel emissions, stating that their Hydro Nano Gas (HNG) “instantly neutralises carbon fuel pollution emissions.”

    Following years of research and development the company believes it has created a safe, cost effective way to reduce all carbon emissions to zero, and is now looking to bring its technology to market, having already signed a joint venture to convert ships to use HNG.

    HydroInfra Technologies will concentrate their efforts on marketing HNG to international shipping companies, and coal or oil-burning power plants around the world, stating that inserting HNG into the exhaust system has been proven to completely reduce pollution emissions to zero.

    Shipping companies that operate in EU and Baltic waters are very interested in the technology as they look for ways to keep their vessels on the water following recent, strict emissions legislation.

    Daniel Behr of HydroInfra Technologies explained that “given the massive amount of fossil fuel pollution emissions by power plants, shipping and other industry sectors, HNG provides a real solution and is already being hailed as one of the most effective and exciting green technologies the world has yet seen.”

    Shipping companies that operate in EU and Baltic waters are very interested in the technology as they look for ways to keep their vessels on the water following recent, strict emissions legislation.

    Daniel Behr of HydroInfra Technologies explained that “given the massive amount of fossil fuel pollution emissions by power plants, shipping and other industry sectors, HNG provides a real solution and is already being hailed as one of the most effective and exciting green technologies the world has yet seen.”

    I know, this is a major bummer for whose who thought collapse would come through climate change due to out-of-control levels of CO2. JHK was smart not to hitch his collapse trailer to climate change.

    • rube-i-con August 12, 2013 at 1:37 pm #

      no way you should post this here, you are blaspheming the credo of these end-of-times apostles that are right once every 1,000 years.

      peace peaceniks

    • BleatToTheBeat August 12, 2013 at 1:50 pm #

      So did you actually read the comments section of the link you posted? Of course not. So why don’t you tell everyone about the comments? Please.

      No mention of the world-saving HydroInfra Technologies on Reuters or Bloomberg either.

      Climate change is much to important a subject for you to be spreading such obvious bullshit around.

      • ozone August 12, 2013 at 5:57 pm #

        Bleaty,
        Poo-flingers are as poo-flingers do.
        And I’m wondering about the movement of materials into Deutschland [uber alles] as the letters of credit seize up on top of all that flung poo…

    • hineshammer August 12, 2013 at 3:18 pm #

      Here.

      Carol, I have some ocean-front property in Wyoming for sale. Interested?

  28. aka_ces August 12, 2013 at 12:48 pm #

    JHK, ever the master of the odd but apt phrase, the fortuitous assimilation of HL Mencken and HS Thompson.

  29. Carol Newquist August 12, 2013 at 12:56 pm #

    ……….the smartest money in the betting pool for the next Fed chair pick shifted strangely last week to the lugubrious figure of Lawrence Summers, who was the longest of long-shots just a week before.

    I would add pasty and corpulent to lugubrious as adjectives in describing Summers. His intestines can’t be healthy. His poor gastroenterologist, if he has one. What a mess.

  30. sierahotel August 12, 2013 at 1:12 pm #

    For those of you no in the know, Psychohistory means future prediction. It’s a fictional technology that is the basis for Isaac Asimov’s “Foundation” books. The technology is basically just the computer ingestion of every single bit of data attainable and processing it to make predictions about the future. The idea being that with more information, you get more accuracy and the ability to look farther and farther out into the future.

    I loved Foundation, and in my early teens my secret fantasy was to become a psychohistorian. -Paul Krugman

    • Q. Shtik August 12, 2013 at 1:23 pm #

      I loved Foundation, and in my early teens my secret fantasy was to become a psychohistorian. -Paul Krugman

      Well I’ll be damned, this explains a lot.

    • Janos Skorenzy August 12, 2013 at 1:34 pm #

      Yes Hari Seldon was a vaguely Jewish character, herding the Gentiles as usual. But then again, Asimov was Jewish too.

  31. Carol Newquist August 12, 2013 at 1:14 pm #

    Tattoo wearers are living billboards for “artists” who have no respect for life. They will never be satisfied with what has been handed down to them nor enjoy any of the simple pleasures of life.

    I don’t have one myself, Don’t want one. Never wanted one. I think they’re silly, and I think much of it is, as you say, fashionable, and I feel the same way you do about fashion. There should be one style outfit everyone wears; a loin cloth. No fancy embroidering, colors and or patterns either. Just plain ivory snow loin cloths for everyone.

    I agree these bastards aren’t grateful for what’s been handed down to them. I thank my lucky stars every day for the tens of thousands of nuclear bombs bequeathed to us by the so-called “Greatest Generation”. Think what the world would be like without the deterrent of nuclear annihilation? All Hail the Bomb.

    • Janos Skorenzy August 12, 2013 at 1:36 pm #

      You are unworthy of your White loin cloth. You would not keep it properly clean and white.

    • Karah August 12, 2013 at 8:55 pm #

      “…ivory snow loin cloths for everyone….All Hail the Bomb!”

      Simple white T-shirts with a nuclear bomb bronco rider silk screened front and back (front and back views of bronco rider).

      Fascionable to the T.

      Okay…so tattoo parlors in urban areas are as quixotic as “snoball” shacks in the sun belt. People in their cars lining up for shaved ice soaked with rainbow colored syrup representing every fruit group known to mankind. Not only are they wasting precious fuel waiting in line while the kids in front try to figure out the weirdest combination of flavors with their a/c cranked, they’re paying 10 times what the stuff costs to make. The ice is like 25 cents? and the syrup bottles – 12$? Al Gore would probably agree with me when I point out all the energy it requires to freeze the blocks and transport them while some of the coolers are still using toxic coolants. Who is overseeing all those SNO shacks anyway? Are they clean? What water is in that ice? Faucet water?

  32. Q. Shtik August 12, 2013 at 1:18 pm #

    Every time you post one of your cheerleader spews you just show your lack of basic knowledge — in this case physics and economics. – Puzzler to Rubicon

    I agree with you that Rubicon (formerly Welles) has not delved deep enough into Germany’s apparent success with solar.

    First of all, JHK has made clear in a couple of his books that the manufacture of solar panels is heavily dependent on fossil fuels and that those panels don’t last forever. They degrade, fail and ultimately need to be replaced.

    Germany’s “success” was/is heavily influenced by subsidizing the solar industry. Personally, I don’t believe in the government subsidization of ANYTHING. It’s a form of robbing Peter to pay Paul.

    • Janos Skorenzy August 12, 2013 at 1:33 pm #

      When Public and Private come together, the greatest achievements become possible: the Cathedrals, the Pyramids, the Great Wall, the Apollo Project, the Manhattan Project, etc.

      Remember, things are often very expensive at first – a profound disincentive towards making necessary changes. Of course the Government often goes too far in the opposite direction, hiding factors that would disprove the validity of a new technology.

      • rube-i-con August 12, 2013 at 1:49 pm #

        thank you for making a cogent point, unlike the puzzler.

        in response to this, solar panels themselves can now provide power to produce more solar panels. high-quality solar panels last 30-40 years.

        lots longer than a gallon of gasoline. sure they degrade, but they have gotten astoundingly more efficient in much less time than 30-40 years, ergo before Germany’s panels fail, much more efficient ones will be available to take their place.

        Forget for a moment that the panels are subsidized, and consider that Germany is ALREADY significantly powering itself with solar and wind. The 50% figure from 2012 has already been handily eclipsed, just 2 or three months ago:

        The International Economic Platform for Renewable Energies (IWR, Münster, Germany) reports that on June 16th, 2013 wind and solar photovoltaic (PV) generation peaked at over 60% of German electricity output, a new record.

        SIXTY PERCENT in GERMANY, a huge, industrialised country. and germany gets 39 TIMES LESS sunlight than the US.

        you can’t argue with success.

        show me where it costs more in terms of petroleum or price or pollution or whatnot to fabricate and run the panels than they supply over 30-40 years. show me bitches.

        this shows kunstler and you pussy end-of-worlders to be liars and luddites.

        peace peaceniks

        • Janos Skorenzy August 12, 2013 at 2:01 pm #

          Yes, there’s a large North Sea Island with several thousand people that runs on nothing but solar I believe. A cloudy climate, even more so than most of Germany.

          Near Boston on the South Shore, the town of Hull was building a few windmills. They would provide all the electricity for tens of thousands of people, pay for themselves in a few years, and be able to sell the excess energy to the greater system. Last I heard, two windmills were built and the Plan was well underway with one or two left to build.

          Perhaps the larger problem is one of heating for those of us in the Northern Hemisphere that is. We may well freeze in the light while watching Nation ending Race Riots on Tee Vee.

    • Janos Skorenzy August 12, 2013 at 1:49 pm #

      You want to see corruption unspeakable? Our whole system of spoils and privilege. Check this out.

      http://www.counter-currents.com/2013/08/the-other-racial-spoils-system/#more-41558

    • benr August 12, 2013 at 3:01 pm #

      The fact is the production of solar panels is very toxic to the local environment so all the greenies that think solar panels are an answer to anything are forgetting what creating this stuff does to the water, air and ultimately peoples health.
      But heck if they are made in China who cares right?

  33. Carol Newquist August 12, 2013 at 1:20 pm #

    CO2 Breakthrough? New Gas Apparently Eliminates All Carbon Emissions

    Hopefully, it’s not The Dreadful Summers’ Wind. If it is, give me Climate Change instead. Anything but THAT!!

    • benr August 12, 2013 at 3:03 pm #

      I got some summers wind heavy on the methane and sulfur low on the C02.
      I have an idea if c02 is so dang bad people should just quit breathing until they buy the proper amount of carbon offset credits or better yet plant lots of trees!

  34. Q. Shtik August 12, 2013 at 1:47 pm #

    … lots of tatted folks are real polite. – Rubicon

    Yes, but I see them as people sadly and desperately in need of attention.

    • rube-i-con August 12, 2013 at 1:51 pm #

      that’s just the point i was making, that your and my perception of lots of them is out of sync with their basic decency. meet some of them.

      lots of shyteheads w/out tatts folks.

      peace peaceniks

  35. rube-i-con August 12, 2013 at 1:52 pm #

    for those interested in the link to germany’s recent 60% solar day, see

    http://www.solarserver.com/solar-magazine/solar-news/current/2013/kw25/solar-pv-wind-reach-60-of-mid-day-german-electricity-output-on-june-16th.html

    peace peaceniks

  36. rube-i-con August 12, 2013 at 2:38 pm #

    Solar energy has a reputation as being a clean energy source but hasn’t earned it — at least not up until now. That’s because in a darkly ironic truth, the power used to manufacture solar panels still comes mainly from electricity generated by fossil fuels. But a new study from Stanford researchers says that the balance may be tipping: all the solar panels online around the world last year produced enough energy to make up for the energy it took to make them, researchers are able to say with more than 50 percent confidence.

    The future looks even brighter, according to the study, with researchers projecting that the industry will be generating enough power between 2015 and 2020 to offset all of the historic creation costs.

    ALL HISTORIC CREATION COSTS MADE UP FOR! FROM THAT POINT, IT’S ALL NET GAIN.

    Study link is here: http://news.stanford.edu/news/2013/april/pv-net-energy-040213.html

    ….so much for you kunstler acolytes and your constant bleating regarding too much technomagic. your future is nice and warm and filled with clean energy, thanks to the NET PLUS RETURNS on technology.

    …cry the beloved kun(stler)try.

    peace peaceniks

    • BleatToTheBeat August 12, 2013 at 2:48 pm #

      I have another “darkly ironic truth” for you.

      We can’t use a large portion of the reserve of fossil fuels already available. That would be going too far. I’ve read that these unused reserves are valued at approximately twenty trillion dollars. Talk about your revenue loss. The amount that it took to nearly destroy the international banking system is miniscule in comparison.

      So, get your solar panels while you still can. We still need fossil fuels to produce them.

      http://www.businessinsider.com/governments-and-oil-firms-arent-acting-like-climate-change-is-a-problem-2013-5

  37. rube-i-con August 12, 2013 at 3:11 pm #

    So, get your solar panels while you still can. We still need fossil fuels to produce them.

    this is typical of the fatalistic shortsightedness here. the panels in existence now, and which will come into existence in the next few years, will be producing MORE energy than was needed to fabricate them. this is what scientists at STANFORD say, not rubeicon.

    this is a tipping point after which solar produces NET ENERGY GAINS. net energy gains means less dependence on fossil fuels.

    and the net energy gains will only increase as solar becomes more and more entrenched – which it has an irrefutable history of doing, ergo GERMANY, a blockbuster energy consumer that is powering itself using….the sun, NOT OIL.

    wake up & smell success, bitches.

    peace peaceniks

    • BleatToTheBeat August 12, 2013 at 3:42 pm #

      I would like to see a mining and/or smelting operation that is running on solar power.

      Bitches?

  38. rube-i-con August 12, 2013 at 3:18 pm #

    The fact is the production of solar panels is very toxic to the local environment so all the greenies that think solar panels are an answer to anything are forgetting what creating this stuff does to the water, air and ultimately peoples health.

    yes, and we all know that pollution can never be cleaned up, processes can never be made cleaner, the world only gets dirtier and dirtier, water can’t be cleaned, lead and toxic materials can’t be recycled, treated, managed, neutralized.

    ya gotta love the luddites out here that WANT the end of the world.
    doomsday is marked Dec. 21 on the Mayan calendar, how’s that one working out for you buggy whip makers out here?

    peace peaceniks

    • BleatToTheBeat August 12, 2013 at 3:46 pm #

      Do you have any idea how you sound?

      By being so dismissive of pollution it sounds as if YOU are the one who wants the “end of the world”.

      By the way, where would the world be going?

      • rube-i-con August 12, 2013 at 4:07 pm #

        read the post, no one is being dismissive of pollution. i cite recycling, managing, cleaning water, treating, and neutralizing pollution.

        5 methods of addressing pollution.

        how is this being dismissive of pollution?

        the problem with this board is that the bias is so far towards societal/ecological/political failure that you’ll take a colossal success story that refutes your belief and ignore it. which is why i keep harping about germany’s unrivalled success in overcoming the very things you keep whining about.

        peace peaceniks

        • BleatToTheBeat August 12, 2013 at 5:22 pm #

          Germany’s Unrivalled Success

          http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-07-28/merkel-s-green-shift-backfires-as-german-pollution-jumps.html

          Now be sure to pick some cherries.

          Wouldn’t want you to be clocking out early.

          Just because you cite five methods of addressing pollution, doesn’t mean that they are actually happening on this planet with enough effect to make a difference. Managing? What the fuck does that mean exactly? Bury it in Yucca Mountain?

          Still waiting to see that solar powered cadmium mine…..

          • rube-i-con August 12, 2013 at 7:37 pm #

            what an off-topic reply. your link cites rising pollution from burning coal, which if anything bolsters the case for increased solar usage. a total non sequitur.

            managing pollution encompasses any measure to mitigate it. maybe reprocess it into something benign. what, your imagination is that weak?

            where oh where is the refutation of germany’s epochal, real-world success at overcoming the need for oil.

            i’ve cited a stanford study saying solar is/is on the verge of being a net energy producer globally, and will make up ALL OF ITS HISTORIC COSTS in a few short years, and keep producing green energy thereafter.

            i’ve cited germany producing 60% of its power from solar panels today, which indicates the prospect of solar letting us massively get off of petroleum is a reality.

            you come back with invective. you come back with suppositions such as ‘just because X, that doesn’t mean Y’. with no supporting facts. geez, strong argument you got there.

            then you cite an article on how dirty coal is – which is precisely why solar will gain even more.

            you win the argument hands down. it’s ignoramuses – in the literal sense of the word – like you that keep the world in the dark.

            peace peaceniks

  39. toktomi August 12, 2013 at 3:31 pm #

    Ahh, the “taper” – it has had me going since Ben uttered the word.

    Ben doesn’t yell “fire!” just to watch the crowd scatter. Trains derail on his whisper.

    Ben whispered taper and “ending purchases around midyear” because those are exactly what will be happening.

    But I could not find a story of why the Fed would now be turning off the spigot of economic life support having worked so hard and so long to keep the holey bubble inflated.

    Well, I have finally synthesized a marginally plausible story, and it essentially mirrors JHK’s observation that “we’re just flat fucked”.

    “Say goodnight, Gracie.”

    ~toktomi~

  40. Janos Skorenzy August 12, 2013 at 4:29 pm #

    http://www.wvwnews.net/content/index.php?/news_story/terrifyingly_naive_white_self_hate_on_display.html

    Kdogism on display here to a horrible degree. She’s so middle class White she’s about to disappear and become a ghost. But before she does, she’ll make a nice bowl of ice cream for some Black males to slurp up.

    • K-Dog August 12, 2013 at 5:29 pm #

      Kdogism ? Wham bam!

      Should I be flattered ? Why not it’s up to me.

      I’m flattered

      Don’t fear the rainbow.

      🙂

      • ozone August 12, 2013 at 7:16 pm #

        Yep, that’s the hilarity of the whoooooole schtik.
        “It’s a white person a-hatin’ on his whole RACE. That’s obvious because they don’t agree with my White Power/Preservation bullshit!”
        Oh well, label me purge-worthy.

        The little laddie just gets littler and littler and littler…… oops, just a shadow of a person now… fading, fading…….

        Hey! Swallowed by history/time, just like every other dog [who’s had his day or not]! Ain’t that strange and unexpected? 😉

        • Janos Skorenzy August 13, 2013 at 2:29 am #

          The girl is pathetic and if you find her views palatable, so are you.

          You’ve outdone yourself today, Mr Ignorance.

      • Janos Skorenzy August 13, 2013 at 2:31 am #

        The rainbow is only “the rainbow” because the colors are distinct. Mix the colors and you get dull brown. That’s your rainbow Kdog, dull brown. What a boring little dun colored mutt you are.

  41. Old Skink August 12, 2013 at 5:29 pm #

    …the equity markets will tank, or so the theory goes.

    Theories are absurdly complex, yet ridiculously simple rationalizations of the current rip off. They’re subject to change when the rip off changes tactics. Pay no attention to theories. Watch the ball…like in this video.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJG698U2Mvo

    The equity markets do not reflect economic activity. The equity markets are a insider rigged mechanism in which the real wheelers and dealers make out like bandits whilst the suckers sit on the sidelines and cheer the theft and believe, delusionally, that all is well with the world so long as the equity markets are soaring.

    • BleatToTheBeat August 12, 2013 at 9:00 pm #

      BAD DODGERS

      Keep you eye….on de bol

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfAFLRv7ZEs

      What is it with humans?

      Because of our communications technology, we are practically ALL now aware, second by second if you choose to be, of the mass of world-wide human suffering that is happening RIGHT NOW! The various systems of property and class that define your tenuous existence have remained, virtually unchanged in principle, if not practice, for hundreds of years.

      After all the trials that humans have advanced through, am I really supposed to accept, that in the year of YOUR Lord, 2013, we have not been able to devise something better?

      More equitable?
      More compassionate?
      More intellectually liberating than badgering some confused old person on the telephone about a late bill or a reverse mortgage swindle? Or operating a piece of factory equipment that does nothing but degrade your body and our planet so that you have just enough time for minimal REM sleep before you have to go back and do it again? That rejecting these inadequate systems of living means exposure, starvation, and untreated illness?

      How can this be?

      When I was very young, I was told that humans have moved far beyond these things.

      I have experienced life on the outside of these systems in America, of all places, for over ten years now. I am a middle aged man. I have been outside and sick, hungry, and broke. I have seen scores of empty houses and buildings in scores of cities while those around me in the same situation were shivering in the cold and rain. I have seen horrific fights over the rights to a garbage dumpster while literally tons of nutritious food are buried in the ground or sold for hog slop every year.

      Well, from the burning at the stake of Nicolaus Copernicus to decoding the human genome, the science is in.

      I say that before we chop down the last tree on Easter Island, perhaps we should step outside of our slavery zone. You know, one last experiment. Just to say we did. And then cut the results onto another Golden Record and shoot it out into space should it not work.

      And if it does work…..HEY!

      The Dodgers are playing To-Night!

      I used to think that even in this time, we are still ruled by Feudal Lords…..with cell phones.

      But now I understand that we really are constantly evolving mammals….with cell phones.

      OK, OK….and tattoos.

      • BleatToTheBeat August 12, 2013 at 9:03 pm #

        GOOD DODGERS

        Here’s the situation. It’s the eighth inning. We’re down 6 – 0.
        It will take all of our skills, knowledge, talents, and guts to get through this.

        Make no mistake, this is a serious challenge. Communication could be the difference between winning and losing. What is he throwing? How does it break? Is this a confident pitcher?

        And who is to say that we might not cop a break?

        You know, like not getting hit by an asteroid.

        We ARE The Dodgers.

        The Dodgers.

        Nobody can beat us.

        So,

        Fuck the politics…

        Fuck the money…

        And fuck the American League.

        If we win, everybody gets a Bobble-Head doll….
        Of Angelo Mozilo

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y25WEXQJwGA

  42. janet August 12, 2013 at 7:25 pm #

    Rube I con said
    the problem with this board is that the bias is so far towards societal/ecological/political failure that you’ll take a colossal success story that refutes your belief and ignore it. which is why i keep harping about germany’s unrivalled success in overcoming the very things you keep whining about.

    You nailed it, rubeicon… And thank you for pointing it out week after week. You have science on your side, you have real world experience on your side, you have NET ENERGY SAVINGS AND POLLUTION CONTROL on your side.

    Keep hammering on the anti-science luddite doomers.

  43. ozone August 12, 2013 at 7:38 pm #

    Hey all you chir’rens of the Willful Ignoranti!
    Harken. Just take a look at this “confluence” and you’ll get a snapshot of where this is all going, via flex-fueled steamroller:

    http://www.infowars.com/larry-summers-and-tapering-the-tattoo-economy/

    Then listen to JHK’s podcast. The patchwork quilt is beginning to look like a coherent whole. I know, Conventional Wisdom-ers may be a bit a’frighted, but that’s tough shit. Too bad, the think tanks invested a lot of time, effort and Benjamins to keep you’all a-hopin’ and a-wishin’ Keep that up, the rest of us will be less pressured as you ‘wait for rescue’. And you will; i’ve seen it, firsthand, in the midst of a hurricane. The dumb sheep just will not do for themselves, and the ‘Murkins are especially good at pretending that ‘help is on the way’. Please continue with this deeply-ingrained behavior.

    • ozone August 12, 2013 at 7:47 pm #

      And, Rube-y Welles? How’s that research on the unrivaled wonderfulness of Brazil goin’? I’ll start thinking you’ve got something to tell us once you straighten that mess out.
      Then call us; we’ll have a nice talk, okay?
      (I’m sure Germany will be delighted to have you immigrate immediately. Get that paperwork started today! “Societal fixers wanted.”)

      • ozone August 12, 2013 at 8:26 pm #

        German-born, eh?
        Godspeed then, you smug bastard! Hie thee hence, and take Yank-o with you; he’ll be a great help in the ‘correct spiritual and societal direction’ arena.

        Don’t forget this part when you crank up operations and make those scadzillions in Euros.:

        “Perhaps Fed officials (and their pet skinks) are hoping that some of that [EU] “money” will sop up whatever US Treasury paper the Fed tapers off buying. (After all, who else would buy the stuff ?)” -JHK

        See how that’s going to work out so sweeeeet?? You can return to returning the returns when all the hand-dusting is done!

        • rube-i-con August 12, 2013 at 9:30 pm #

          wtf is your post supposed to mean?

          i’ve put a lot of effort into being able to live wherever i want, many years, it has nothing to do with being smug, which is the only refuge the weak-as-gruel arguments on this board have, i.e. smugness, i.e. no consistency, a.k.a. substance.

          in brazil news, i just bought 7 pounds of cupim the cut that comes from the hump of humped Brazilian cattle. stuff is marvellously fat-marbled, it almost melts in your mouth. just grill a bit on the bar-b-q, it’ll win you over.

          am now drinking bavaria brand beer too, the green can, very nice taste & less expensive the Skol beer.

          peace peaceniks

  44. rube-i-con August 12, 2013 at 7:41 pm #

    BleatToTheBeat stated the following in response to my post on germany’s success with solar:

    Germany’s Unrivalled Success

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-07-28/merkel-s-green-shift-backfires-as-german-pollution-jumps.html

    Now be sure to pick some cherries.

    Wouldn’t want you to be clocking out early.

    Just because you cite five methods of addressing pollution, doesn’t mean that they are actually happening on this planet with enough effect to make a difference. Managing? What the fuck does that mean exactly? Bury it in Yucca Mountain?

    Still waiting to see that solar powered cadmium mine…..

    ======MY REPLY======================
    what an off-topic reply. your link cites rising pollution from burning coal, which if anything bolsters the case for increased solar usage. a total non sequitur.

    managing pollution encompasses any measure to mitigate it. maybe reprocess it into something benign. what, your imagination is that weak?

    where oh where is the refutation of germany’s epochal, real-world success at overcoming the need for oil.

    i’ve cited a stanford study saying solar is/is on the verge of being a net energy producer globally, and will make up ALL OF ITS HISTORIC COSTS in a few short years, and keep producing green energy thereafter.

    i’ve cited germany producing 60% of its power from solar panels today, which indicates the prospect of solar letting us massively get off of petroleum is a reality.

    you come back with invective. you come back with suppositions such as ‘just because X, that doesn’t mean Y’. with no supporting facts. geez, strong argument you got there.

    then you cite an article on how dirty coal is – which is precisely why solar will gain even more.

    you win the argument hands down. it’s ignoramuses – in the literal sense of the word – like you that keep the world in the dark.

    peace peaceniks

  45. janet August 12, 2013 at 7:53 pm #

    Ozone said

    The dumb sheep just will not do for themselves, and the ‘Murkins are especially good at pretending that ‘help is on the way’. Please continue with this deeply-ingrained behavior.

    Ozone calls Americans dumb and helpless.

    The truth is the American people have organized GOVERNMENT at all levels which is depended upon successfully every day not just when several million people suffer hurricane caused electrical outages.

    You don’t go out and fix the grid yourself… You don’t put out forest fires yourself. You don’t need to because friendly helpful GOVERNMENT will make sure it gets done. That is why you pay taxes. Pay your taxes gladly.

  46. jim e August 12, 2013 at 8:04 pm #

    How do you (does one) survive when you leave the car culture?

    • Karah August 12, 2013 at 9:07 pm #

      Good question…

      I don’t think it’s possible anymore than it’s possible for wild animals to survive the 2 to 10 lane highway systems.

      Then you have the suspicious minds wondering what you’re doing on the streets; why can’t you afford a vehicle? You must be a convict who can’t obtain gainful employment in order to make regular payments.
      You’re obviously not insurable for any number of reasons:
      DUIs due in large part to some kind of substance abuse
      too many accidents
      not trustworthy to be carried on anyone elses insurance
      again, can’t make the payments

      You will be pulled over by police if you dare to walk a public street at night. After all they are “safety officers” looking out for you and i. We susceptible to all kinds of dangers without our armor.

  47. ozone August 12, 2013 at 8:07 pm #

    Say, did anybody actually read the overnight media summary, here?:

    http://www.rvnewstoday.com/2013/08/12/frontrunning-august-12/

    Oh yeah, things are just peachy-fuckin’-keen, I tells ya! Got confidence? Ummm, why? If you’d like to hear/see a con-man really working his trade, check out the latest Presidential PR Show that they labeled a “press conference”. (Wha’choo say? Sounds like he’s trying to restore ‘Murkins trust in their gum’mint? Well then, did he do a good job selling you some soap?)

    (Kunstler must have said something that set some very expensive teeth on edge this week, seeing that we now have a triple gum’mint tag-team on the case to misdirect, blunt, skew and wander faaaaar away into the wilderness of renewables prognostication. Curiouser and curiouser.)

  48. rube-i-con August 12, 2013 at 8:08 pm #

    And, Rube-y Welles? How’s that research on the unrivaled wonderfulness of Brazil goin’? I’ll start thinking you’ve got something to tell us once you straighten that mess out.
    Then call us; we’ll have a nice talk, okay?
    (I’m sure Germany will be delighted to have you immigrate immediately. Get that paperwork started today!

    another prime example of the inability to respond to facts. i, long ago, admitted that brazil sux, did i not? i came to this conclusion on the basis of the facts on the ground, after ample experience living here. country’s great in many ways, and horrible in many more. you know-nothings, on the other hand, can only make attempts at snide remarks, since you have very little, if anything, factual on your side.

    re germany, i was born there, i speak the language with near-native fluency, have been a translator of german for over a quarter century, and lived & worked there for many years. so, no need for paperwork, bozo, i’m good to go.

    as a matter of fact, i think i will use my icelandic citizenship to get a work permit in germany, thanks for reminding me. i can do that because…i can. i’m a financial systems programmer to boot, so i have plenty of opps staring me in the face. no linguistic problems whatsoever.

    man, americans are so dumb, so very dumb.

    i’m waiting over multiple retorts for some facts to shoot down the refutation of kunstler’s claim that technology won’t save us. i’ve demonstrated with facts that it already IS fixing the energy problem – which is jhk’s central thrust. i cite scientific studies, give links, provide irrefutable statistics. i get apish ‘arguments’ in return.

    waiting, waiting for someone to refute me….so tiresome, janet et al seems to be the only one(s) that gets it.

    peace peaceniks

  49. janet August 12, 2013 at 8:10 pm #

    100th!

    Reviewing the first 100 posts everyone has made relevant posts except for Arn Varnold, P4W, and Janos’ perennial race-baiting.

    • rube-i-con August 12, 2013 at 8:18 pm #

      substitute the word ‘culture’ for ‘race’ and a lot of race baiting makes darn good sense. i think Janos makes a lot of good points. i personally don’t give a shyte what color someone’s skin is, but –

      some kultures just suck.

      from a recent article:


      In New York from January to June 2008, 83 percent of all gun assailants were black, according to witnesses and victims, though blacks were only 24 percent of the population. Blacks and Hispanics together accounted for 98 percent of all gun assailants. Forty-nine of every 50 muggings and murders in the Big Apple were the work of black or Hispanic criminals.


      New York Police Commissioner Ray Kelly confirms Mac Donald’s facts. Blacks and Hispanics commit 96 percent of all crimes in the city, he says, but only 85 percent of the stop-and-frisks are of blacks and Hispanics.

      once bitten, twice shy. wait…..i mean, let’s celebrate our differences. (fuck that)

      peace peaceniks

      • janet August 12, 2013 at 11:50 pm #

        Rube-i-con said:
        once bitten, twice shy. wait…..i mean, let’s celebrate our differences. (fuck that)

        ————

        Let’s celebrate both our differences and our similarities. We all just want to be able to live in peace and be happy.

        Peace peaceniks

  50. jim e August 12, 2013 at 8:11 pm #

    “Alabama Getaway”
    Words by Robert Hunter; music by Jerry Garcia
    Copyright Ice Nine Publishing. Used by permission.

    Thirty two teeth in a jawbone
    Alabama cryin for none
    Before I have to hit him
    I hope he’s got the sense to run

    Reason those poor girls love him
    Promise them anything
    Reason they believe him
    He wears a big diamond ring

    Alabama getaway
    Alabama getaway
    Only way to please me
    Turn around and leave
    and walk away

    Majordomo Billy Bojangles
    Sit down and have a drink with me
    What’s this about Alabame
    Keeps comin back to me?

    Heard your plea in the courthouse
    Jurybox began to rock and rise
    Forty-nine sister states all had
    Alabama in their eyes

    Alabama getaway
    Alabama getaway
    Only way to please me
    Turn around and leave
    and walk away

    Why don’t we just give Alabama
    rope enough to hang himself?
    Ain’t no call to worry the jury
    His kind takes care of itself

    Twenty-third Psalm Majordomo
    reserve me a table for three
    in the Valley of the Shadow
    just you, Alabama and me

    Alabama getaway
    Alabama getaway
    Only way to please me
    turn around and leave
    and walk away

  51. Q. Shtik August 12, 2013 at 8:26 pm #

    make out like bandits whilst the suckers sit on the sidelines

    “Carol,” what is the purpose of your changing your handle to Old Skink? Did you just want to see how easily it could be done?

  52. jim e August 12, 2013 at 8:28 pm #

    in the Valley of the Shadow
    In the Valleys of Blog

  53. jim e August 12, 2013 at 8:32 pm #

    James Howard,..you are the GREATEST!

  54. Q. Shtik August 12, 2013 at 8:41 pm #

    From the BBC

    “Gunmen kill 44 at Nigeria Mosque

    At least 44 worshippers have been shot dead at a mosque in northeast Nigeria, officials in Borno state say.

    The killings took place during dawn prayers on Sunday morning, although news only emerged on Monday.

    The attack occurred in the town of Konduga, 35km (22 miles) from the state capital Maiduguri.

    The gunmen are suspected to be from the Islamist group Boko Haram, which has killed thousands in northern Nigeria since 2009.”

    ISLAM IS A RELIGION OF PEACE

  55. mangina August 12, 2013 at 8:54 pm #

    What’s really behind Boko Haram?

    Wikileaks: Boko Haram Is A CIA Covert Operation

    We have already been regaled with reports provided by the Wikileaks which identified the US embassy in Nigeria as a forward operating base for wide and far reaching acts of subversion against Nigeria which include but not limited to eavesdropping on Nigerian government communication, financial espionage on leading Nigerians, support and funding of subversive groups and insurgents, sponsoring of divisive propaganda among the disparate groups of Nigeria and the use of visa blackmailto induce and coerce high ranking Nigerians into acting in favour of US interests. But beyond what we know from the Wikileaks report, what many Nigerians do not know is that US embassy’s subversive activities in Nigeria fits into the long term US government’s well camouflaged policy of containment against Nigeria the ultimate goal of which is to eliminate Nigeria as a potential strategic rival to the US in the African continent.

    THE CIA IS AN ORGANIZATION OF PEACE

  56. mangina August 12, 2013 at 9:12 pm #

    If you’d like to hear/see a con-man really working his trade, check out the latest Presidential PR Show that they labeled a “press conference”.

    Do people still watch these stupid things or listen to what the president says? I haven’t paid attention to this nonsense for years and doing so lowered my total cholesterol eighty points. Give it a try. You want to make sure to keep those arteries clear for the collapse coming this fall. All those guns and ammo ain’t worth shit when you’re too weak to pull the trigger let alone load the damn things.

    • ozone August 13, 2013 at 11:37 am #

      carol,
      Yes, we watch/listen to them to know what our overlords are up to. Although you’re briefed on those moves daily, the rest of us have to parse this out from sources that the propaganda industry provides. (Besides they’re always good for a hearty guffaw here and there.)

  57. alpha mail August 12, 2013 at 9:47 pm #

    “Karah” sez:
    Good question…

    I don’t think it’s possible anymore than it’s possible for wild animals to survive the 2 to 10 lane highway systems.

    Then you have the suspicious minds wondering what you’re doing on the streets; why can’t you afford a vehicle? You must be a convict who can’t obtain gainful employment in order to make regular payments.
    You’re obviously not insurable for any number of reasons:
    DUIs due in large part to some kind of substance abuse
    too many accidents
    not trustworthy to be carried on anyone elses insurance
    again, can’t make the payments

    You will be pulled over by police if you dare to walk a public street at night. After all they are “safety officers” looking out for you and i. We susceptible to all kinds of dangers without our armor

    *****
    Interesting observation, Karah. I find myself in agreement as to your inference to the ubiquitous car culture which is “America”, say, from 1957 to present. In larger cities, such as New York, Paris, and London, walking vs. driving doesn’t carry the suspicion you point to. In the smaller cities of the U.S., I’d might be one to agree with you. Having spent the past few days in London, I’d be inclined to say that there is no stigma there as to walking vs. driving. When I return to the States, I shall begin my own study and focus on smaller cities. It should be interesting to find out what the “stigma”, if any, is to walking vs. driving in these medium to smaller cities.

  58. janet August 12, 2013 at 11:52 pm #

    Rube-i-con said:
    once bitten, twice shy. wait…..i mean, let’s celebrate our differences. (fuck that)

    ————

    Let’s celebrate both our differences and our similarities. We all just want to be able to live in peace and be happy.

    Peace peaceniks

  59. Arn Varnold August 13, 2013 at 12:15 am #

    Super interview with Richard Heinberg. His book title, Snake Oil is apt.
    Being overseas, I have to chose my news sources, which are NEVER, American MSM.
    I couldn’t find anything in what Richard said that I could argue with. TomDispatch, Ian Welsh, Amy Goodman (5 days a week), Juan Cole, Pepe Escobar (Asia Times), and The Guardian are all great sources of damn good reporting.
    All devoid of inane “talking points” and lap dog printing of the government’s line.

    • anti dod August 13, 2013 at 10:30 am #

      Amy Goodman, who made Mumia famous!
      In any case RH was on AM Radio last night on ‘Coast 2 Coast’, a show that JHK has been on.

  60. janet August 13, 2013 at 12:24 am #

    JAMES HOWARD KUNSTLER asks:
    You see how complicated it gets?

    No, you make it complicated with your talk of financial “theories” i.e.

  61. janet August 13, 2013 at 4:11 am #

    JHK seems to be assuming that Summers will be the next at the Fed and spins out his taper talk from that assumption. I don’t think Summers will be the one heading the Fed.

    Just like you were convinced the XL Pipeline would be built in Jan 2012 because that’s what the plutocracy wanted and Obama was just a puppet. Wrong!

    Then you said the pipeline was not canceled, just postponed for a year for political reasons and would be built in Jan 2013 because the plutocracy wanted it and Obama is just a puppet. Wrong again!

    Your assumptions about who Obama is and what he will do are not reliable. The plutocracy did not want a consumer financial protection agency or government expansion of Medicaid, but Obama did… so we have what Obama wanted… Not what the plutocracy wanted.

    The plutocracy was making big bucks off the war in Iraq, and needed stability to get Iraq’s oil, but Obama wanted an end to USA military involvement. Obama got his way, Iraq is not stable, and the plutocracy cannot steal Iraq’s oil.

    You get the idea. Obama is in the driver’s seat and he is not a puppet of any so-called ruling plutocracy.

  62. mangina August 13, 2013 at 5:51 am #

    TomDispatch, Ian Welsh, Amy Goodman (5 days a week), Juan Cole, Pepe Escobar (Asia Times), and The Guardian are all great sources of damn good reporting.
    All devoid of inane “talking points” and lap dog printing of the government’s line.

    LOL! They’re nothing more than feckless poseurs like Hedges. Sure, they have valid points and critiques some of the time, and maybe even most of the time, but their conclusions concerning the root of the problems are almost always wrong and they offer no effective means of resistance. If they’re not controlled opposition, they should be, because that’s what they effectively are when you get right down to it. They are as much a part of the establishment as G.W. Bush. They play their part. They allow the more progressive intellectual faction to vent their frustrations, to call what this faction believes those beneath them, incompetent. They believe with proper reforms, this system can be made right. They offer no real hope and change, just complaints and feckless, toothless opposition which is no opposition at all.

    • Arn Varnold August 13, 2013 at 7:15 am #

      Sorry, your bait is putrid; not biting. Have a good one…

  63. mangina August 13, 2013 at 5:54 am #

    You get the idea. Obama is in the driver’s seat and he is not a puppet of any so-called ruling plutocracy.

    He’s in a seat. alright, just like this one atop the elephant. I’d hardly call it the driver’s seat, though.

    http://www.travel-pictures-gallery.com/images/cambodia/phnom-penh/phnom-penh-0048.jpg

  64. mangina August 13, 2013 at 6:18 am #

    Obama is not interested in the environment as is witnessed by his unequivocal capitulation on, and support of, fracking. More on that later, but for now, Janet implies Obama’s motives for delaying and/or denying Keystone XL are purely altruistic, i.e. he cares for the environment and since he’s in the driver’s seat he will do everything in his power to ensure the environment is protected. Nothing could be further from the truth. Obama is a bought and paid for whore, and in the case of Keystone XL, Warren Buffet is his john.

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/jun/19/railroading-the-keystone-xl-pipeline/?page=all

    TRIPLETT: Railroading the Keystone XL pipeline

    An Obama-Buffett connection could keep crude rolling by rail

    Even after Keystone, the overwhelming majority of North Dakota oil will still leave the state in tank cars for years to come.

    What railroad? For the most part the Burlington, Northern and Santa Fe Railroad.

    Who owns the Burlington, Northern and Santa Fe Railroad? The companies of the Berkshire Hathaway conglomerate, controlled by Warren Buffett of Omaha, Neb.

    Mr. Buffett’s rail-crude tie-ins don’t end with the railroad. Berkshire Hathaway also owns Union Tank Car, one of the biggest makers of oil tank railcars.

    How’s the tank car business? Bloomberg reported in January, “People who want to ship oil can’t get them,” said Toby Kolstad, president of the consultant firm Rail Theory Forecasts LL, referring to railcars. “They’re desperate to get anything to move crude oil.”

    Running Mr. Buffett’s name through the Federal Election Commission data bank reveals page after page of contributions to Mr. Obama and every conceivable Democratic Party-affiliated organization, amounting to uncounted millions. Mr. Buffett has been contributing to the Democrats for a long time — decades — and it may be entirely coincidental that a lot of Buffett cash continued to the flow to the Obama money machine right when Mr. Obama delayed Keystone and continues to flow right when he may be blocking it permanently. There is no doubt, however, that every day Keystone is delayed, Berkshire Hathaway makes a lot of money. A chart of dollars out of Berkshire Hathaway and into the Democratic National Committee would look very ugly.

    Finally, as Canada’s ambassador to the United States, Gary Doer, said recently, “It isn’t a matter of [whether this] oil comes to the United States. It’s a matter of how.” For now, it comes to the United States by rail.

  65. mangina August 13, 2013 at 6:32 am #

    What water is in that ice? Faucet water?

    If Obama, who’s in the driver’s seat by the way in case anyone’s forgotten or overlooked it, has any say in the matter, and of course he does have the final say according to Janet, it will be this kind of water:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZAsK2IsFHw

    By the way, Gasland II is as excellent as the original Gasland, and maybe even better if that’s possible. Obama, the decider in the driver’s seat, is complicit, and using Janet’s reasoning, responsible for this unfolding atrocity; the poisoning of what remains of the U.S. drinking water supply.

    Flaming Snow Cones! What’s not to like?

  66. mangina August 13, 2013 at 7:35 am #

    Sorry, your bait is putrid; not biting. Have a good one…

    If today were the 1930’s with access to the internet and you were a German citizen, or maybe, let’s say, a citizen from a country bordering Germany, would you link to the personal blog, favorably, of a Third Reich leader, former or otherwise? If you did, and yet you were an alleged critic of the Third Reich’s policies, should you be taken seriously?

    • Arn Varnold August 14, 2013 at 4:50 am #

      @ mangina
      Obama is a bought and paid for whore, and in the case of Keystone XL, Warren Buffet is his john.
      Oops. I greatly mis-understood your POV. My apologies for my laziness and inattention.
      Write on and right on…

  67. janet August 13, 2013 at 8:16 am #

    Mangina Carol said Janet was “implying”

    I was not implying anything. I was stating facts. JHK and his followers have been wrong in the past when predicting what Obama would do.

    This week’s screed is based on another prediction that Summers will head the Fed.

  68. Downstairs' Mix-up August 13, 2013 at 8:52 am #

    This week’s screed is based on another prediction that Summers will head the Fed.

    There is no explicit prediction in this week’s post. Certainly, it can be argued that there is an implicit certainty, or that JHK’s post implies Summers will be the man, but it doesn’t explicitly state that, so for now, that’s just inference on your part.

    I view it as a “what if.” What if Summers is appointed? Carol mentioned it would be appropriate. I agree considering the pasty, corpulent, lugubrious bastard’s track record. But you know what? It doesn’t matter either way just as it doesn’t matter who’s in the Whitehouse these days, if it ever did. The agenda, on the issues that really matter, is the same regardless. Carol is right, Tattoo for Fed Chairman. “De plane boss, de plane!!”

  69. progress4what August 13, 2013 at 8:57 am #

    Well, here it is, Tuesday.
    And any new reader of JHK’s blog would conclude that only idiots dominate this comment thread.

    Does anyone have any logical reason that James Howard Kunstler should not ban the avatars “janetasoka” and/or “man-carol-gina?”

    Some sort of “freedom of speech” argument, maybe.

    I’m not sure how that argument applies to privately owned and commercial webspace like this Nation of Clustering Fornication. But, I’m willing to listen – which is more than can be said for the “Trolling Twosome.”

    ===========================

    And the dominance of public forums by zealots IS the main reason behind the decline of politics for the public good.

    Consider “Occupy.” Hell, consider Congress.

    So, it’s worth discussing – using the Trolling Twosome as examples of forum domination in action.

    What are solutions?

  70. janet August 13, 2013 at 9:11 am #

    “It doesn’t matter”

    LOL!

    Of course it does matter. If it didn’t matter, Republicans would not block Obama’s appointments and voters would not have elected Obama… TWICE. No one would have voted for Romney.

  71. janet August 13, 2013 at 9:24 am #

    Obama being elected “mattered” to military families with loved ones in harms way in Iraq. Obama got them back home again… Alive. Not that it matters to you.

  72. alpha mail August 13, 2013 at 9:50 am #

    Here’s a little Fred for you bitchez:

    Fred On Everything —

    Americans have prided themselves on America´s being a melting for so long that few notice that it isn´t. Cultures that could melt did, and those that couldn´t haven´t.

    We tend to regard categories such as African-American, European-American, and Mexican-American as political, when in fact they designate unassimilated and perhaps unassimilable cultural entities. The differences are stark. The United States indeed is multicultural.

    Go to a purely European-American community in, say, Idaho or Iowa. You will find clearly defined attitudes toward obedience to the law, the raising of children, toward schooling and acceptable behavior in school, toward democracy, self-reliance, constitutionality, civility, toward law and its enforcement. These qualities are not associated by accident. They closely resemble those found in Denmark and Finland. This is hardly surprising, since European-Americans came from Europe.

    Now go to a purely African-American cultural enclave—say, Detroit. Here you will find very different attitudes toward study, behavior in schools, law enforcement, and reliance on governmental charity. Again unsurprisingly, society in Detroit resembles more closely that of Nigeria than of Holland since its people came from Africa and have had no contact with Europe or its values…..

    *************

    It’s a good read from Reed. I highly recommend it.

    • toktomi August 13, 2013 at 1:55 pm #

      Hey! I just popped over and read Fred On Everything’s “Cultures”.

      Wow! Educated sociopaths are trippy – dangerously insane but interesting.

      ~toktomi~

    • Janos Skorenzy August 13, 2013 at 10:07 pm #

      Yes and not all these cultures are equal. Clearly Africa’s is inferior and shouldn’t be on this continent at all. They are not Americans and can’t be Americans without denying themselves. We have no right to ask them to do this. Nor can they without coercion. As Lincoln said, we suffer from each other’s company. Let’s make this right: send them back. Too late? Yes. So let’s give them their own Country in the deep South.

  73. ozone August 13, 2013 at 11:10 am #

    Allow me a moment to do a Carasokawellsie cut and paste job that reflects an accurate sense of the real readers and commenters here, and doesn’t lead down the blind alleys that the professional distractors are consistently and busily driving truckloads of horseshit into.

    Here we go (sorry for the length, although it’s just a slice).

    “…history points up the reliability with which one era’s unquestioned truths become the next era’s embarrassing memories. To return to a point raised earlier in this sequence, the concept of progress has no content of its own, and so it’s been possible so far for believers in progress to pretend to ignore all the things in American life that are blatantly retrogressing, and to keep scrabbling around for something, anything, that will still prop up the myth. In today’s America, living standards for most people have been falling for decades, along with literacy rates and most measures of public health; the nation’s infrastructure has been ravaged by decades of malign neglect, its schools are by most measures the worst in the industrial world, and even the most basic public services are being cut to Third World standards or below; the lunar landers scattered across the face of the Moon stare back blindly at a nation that no longer has a manned space program at all and, despite fitful outbursts of rhetoric from politicians and the idle rich, almost certainly will never have one again. None of that matters—yet.

    Another of the lessons repeatedly taught by history, though, is that sooner or later these things will matter. Sooner or later, some combination of events will push cognitive dissonance to the breaking point, and the civil religion of progress will collapse under the burden of its own failed prophecies. That’s almost unthinkable for most people in the industrial world these days, but it’s crucial to recognize that the mere fact that something is unthinkable is no guarantee that it won’t happen.

    Thus it’s important for those of us who want to be prepared for the future to try to think about the unthinkable—to come to terms with the possibility that the future will see a widespread rejection of the myth of progress and everything connected to it. That wasn’t a likely option in an age when economic expansion and rapid technological development were everyday facts of life, but we no longer live in such an age, and the fading memories of the last decades when those things happened will not retain their power indefinitely. Imagine a future America where the available resources don’t even suffice to maintain existing technological systems, only the elderly remember sustained economic growth, and the new technological devices that still come onto the market now and then are restricted to the very few who are wealthy enough to afford them. At what point along that curve do the promises of progress become so self-evidently absurd that the power of the civil religion of progress to shape thought and motivate behavior breaks down completely?”
    -John Michael Greer, The Archdruid Report

    ********************************************************************

    THAT’S where the majority of opinion of Kunstler’s readers resides!
    Not this shilly-shally “they’ll think of something” and “technology will allow us kingly comfort forever”. (BTW, welles, you’ve outed yourself as an operative simply by trying to hide the fact that you once WERE welles by the ruse of a new screen name. This continual obfuscation and tearing down of trust is you people’s major stock-in-trade.)

    That think-tank booster talk is utter crap, as the unprepared will find to their vast regret. Even those of us who are trying to face this predicament are likely only a little ways into what will actually be required to make a viable life for us and ours. Being psychologically prepared will help with flexibility, I’m certain.

    I just thought it important to post a piece that counters the constant flow of crap, bilge, and unrepresentative lies (that have become the majority of the posts) by paid provocateurs.

    JHK is trying to say that continuing down our present path (and pursuing the current ‘policies’) is going to come to a very bad end for the reg’lar folks in this country. If you don’t believe that, then you aren’t [and haven’t been] paying attention, or you’re paid to counter that belief on THIS SPECIFIC BLOG.

    • handyman August 13, 2013 at 3:11 pm #

      I think you have the honor of having the last post worth reading. It goes to shit rapidly down below.

      • Arn Varnold August 14, 2013 at 4:55 am #

        Yes, what is normal here.
        Remember this from WWII?
        SNAFU; situation normal all fucked up.

    • K-Dog August 13, 2013 at 3:32 pm #

      one era’s unquestioned truths become the next era’s embarrassing memories

      “All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.” A. S.

      believers in progress to pretend to ignore all the things in American life that are blatantly retrogressing

      Which is possible only by redefining progress in the mind to suit one’s own insane purpose.

      the civil religion of progress will collapse under the burden of its own failed prophecies

      When people cease quietly disappearing from life’s mainstream and their departure becomes noticed social consciousness of things like destroying lives with chronic unemployment to keep a minority wealthy will become to be seen as unconscionable. It is. When it is seen that all must benefit from the religion of progress the world can change, but not before then. Progress was never a myth. Private and unquestioned definitions of progress are myths.

      rapid technological development were everyday facts of life, but we no longer live in such an age

      “We can’t solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.” A. E.

      Technology allowed growth to consume the resources of future generation and has become our doom. At this point we can’t live with it and we can’t live without it. Technology itself is not bad and to be human is to use technology. But a blind faith and a religion built around the belief that technology is a band aid that can fix all problems is insane. Only the intelligent and restricted use of technology combined with changes in lifestyle can save us. Technology by itself can’t do it.

      • K-Dog August 13, 2013 at 3:40 pm #

        Technology allowed growth to consume the resources of future generations and has become our doom.

    • Janos Skorenzy August 13, 2013 at 10:09 pm #

      And you are the only one who has never been banned. Teacher’s pet? Or something more sinistre or left handed?

  74. Downstairs' Mix-up August 13, 2013 at 11:18 am #

    Obama being elected “mattered” to military families with loved ones in harms way in Iraq. Obama got them back home again… Alive. Not that it matters to you.

    You’re right, that doesn’t matter so much to me as the innocent Iraqi lives lost at the hands of those military families. I don’t support that. Never. Ever. But it is telling you mention that as the upside of the Iraqi withdrawal, and not the innocent Iraqi lives……..because those lives obviously don’t matter to you. You, Janet, are an aider and abetter of war crimes. You, Janet, are complicit. You, Janet, along with Obama and every other politician inside the beltway should be tried and convicted of war crimes. You, Janet, do not have a moral leg to stand on. You, Janet, are a despot. Janet supports the following and she’s glad these boys are home safe and sound:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4Pv4p8Gdzw

  75. Downstairs' Mix-up August 13, 2013 at 11:27 am #

    Is that the Fred who’s hanging out down in Mexico with the drug cartels, doing their drugs and screwing their putas? Why, of course it is. Fred, he’s so above it all. Fred’s what he accuses others of being; a degenerate.

  76. Downstairs' Mix-up August 13, 2013 at 11:37 am #

    So, I’m confused. A poster above is saying you can never have too much magic by pointing to John Michael Greer

    http://books.google.com/books/about/Learning_Ritual_Magic.html?id=V8NWcIXv9w8C

    and yet JHK has written a book entitled Too Much Magic.

    I think I will write a book called Too Much Irony because the irony practiced in these haunts is highly ritualistic.

  77. tapering hairball August 13, 2013 at 12:06 pm #

    Isn’t Fred Reed the cretin who wrote Ron Paul’s racist newsletters? I can’t believe there are people here quoting this freak. Where am I?

    • Janos Skorenzy August 13, 2013 at 10:12 pm #

      You’re in Foxy Hell, about to go down on Greta.

  78. alpha mail August 13, 2013 at 12:59 pm #

    Fred RULES! Fred for prez.

  79. Q. Shtik August 13, 2013 at 1:11 pm #

    “Carol” Newquist begat

    Old Skank (sic) who begat

    Mangina who begat

    Downstairs’ Mix-up who begat

    tapering hairball

    Did I miss any?

    All this in less than two days and from someone who claims screen names are not important… we should focus on the content. Whutta jerk-off.

  80. janet August 13, 2013 at 1:46 pm #

    and not the innocent Iraqi lives……..because those lives obviously don’t matter to you. You, Janet, are an aider and abetter of war crimes.

    ————–

    Can I share this with the others in my WOMEN IN BLACK vigil group? I have ample documentary evidence of my concern for Iraqi civilians. A war crimes trial is the last thing I’ll worry about. Nice try, troll.

  81. tapering hairball August 13, 2013 at 1:59 pm #

    I have ample documentary evidence of my concern for Iraqi civilians

    Oh, I’m sure you do. I’m waiting. Please provide it henceforth, but let me ask, if you have/had such concern for Iraqi civilians, why not claim that as the upside of the Iraqi withdrawal? How about the Libyan civilians? How about the Syrian civilians? Can you document your concern for them by chronicling your opposition to the Shock n Awe campaign attributed to your hero-in-chief, BHO, for the former, and aid to terrorist rebels for the latter? I’ll be waiting. If it’s not forthcoming, I’ll assume you’re full of shit.

  82. tapering hairball August 13, 2013 at 2:03 pm #

    All this in less than two days and from someone who claims screen names are not important…

    I agree with Carol that they’re not important. Why are they important to you and not the content? Perhaps because you lack any depth of character? By golly, I believe that’s it. Get with the program South Park-watching gramps.

  83. janet August 13, 2013 at 2:22 pm #

    Please provide it henceforth

    —————–

    What is your address? I’ll be waiting, troll.

  84. rube-i-con August 13, 2013 at 2:27 pm #

    ozone says: I just thought it important to post a piece that counters the constant flow of crap, bilge, and unrepresentative lies (that have become the majority of the posts) by paid provocateurs.

    ozone is referring, among others, to me, rube-i-con aka welles. ozone says i have tried to hide my identity under a new screen name.

    ozone, everyone out here knows i am welles, a lot of screen names became unusable, banned, for apparently technical reasons, many weeks back. where in hell do you get the idea i’m hiding under some new name? i’ve multiple times said i’m welles. i never stopped using my signoff. are you daft?

    you are, like most of the cranks on this board, delusional, like a woman, i.e. you magnify ant ant pile into a mountain. you cannot be reasoned with. you fail to see the most glaring truths right in front of you.

    as regards the lies i spill, i cite scientific studies freely available on the internet. sorry, i know your crowd can’t reply to reason, only make believe end of the world stuff. it’s become apparent that it’s fairly pointless to try to reason with you people. i cite studies, figures, press reports regarding actual, verifiable events. i have YET to get one fact-based challenge. your latest nonsense is another in a long string of ad hominem attacks. because you have no FACTS to support your position, or to challenge mine.

    i cite a STANFORD U. study on solar power being a net energy producer GLOBALLY.

    WHERE is your challenge to that fact? i cite germany getting 60% of its total national power supply from solar. where is your rebuttal, besides saying ‘aw you believe technology will save us’.

    “no welles, you’re a paid shill”

    shut up, you goddamn moron, if you can’t at least provide a counter based on facts, get the fuck out of the conversation.

    janet, who i think is the new screen name of …i forget, the guy who lives in s. america too, and trippticket are about the only ones here who stoop to delve in fact-based argumentation, at least at times.

    you people are swine, why do i waste my time trying to reason with you, when all you do is hurl back invective?

    Ozone says: Not this shilly-shally “they’ll think of something” and “technology will allow us kingly comfort forever”. (BTW, welles, you’ve outed yourself as an operative simply by trying to hide the fact that you once WERE welles by the ruse of a new screen name.

    how in the hell is citing a scientific study equal to ‘theyll think of something’? haha, you are a cretin.

    peace peaceniks

    • K-Dog August 13, 2013 at 4:10 pm #

      Germany, has set a goal of getting 60% of energy from renewable resources by 2050.

      A very challenging goal to be met in 37 years. A plan it is, nothing more.

      Your use of the 60% percentage was genuine disingenuous paid shill bullshit.

      You lack honour. You call someone a cretin and in the next line it’s peace peaceniks.

      Tax dollars at work.

      • rube-i-con August 13, 2013 at 6:00 pm #

        the idiocy here never stops, it’s like arguing with a woman, there’s nothing rational about it.

        i said germany reached 60% for a few DAYS this year, and 50% a few DAYS in 2012, ignoramus.

        i provided links for you to check my info. why the fuck can’t you read, and reason?

        no one is saying they are at 60% as of today.

        YOU FUCKING IDIOTS READ THE GODDAMN POSTS WHY DONT YOU B4 YOU RESPOND.

        i lack honour. you lack the ability to do the minimal of research to back up your nonsense retorts. read the fucking links i provided why dont you, before you stick your foot in your mouth.

        peace peaceniks

        • handyman August 13, 2013 at 7:48 pm #

          Misonygistic, much? When you dismiss half of the human race, it can be very hard to get anyone to take you seriously.

          • Janos Skorenzy August 13, 2013 at 10:33 pm #

            No serious man thinks that woman are our equals intellectually. You need to get out more. Talk to people off the record. You’re holding onto a lot of lies you learned on TV and in College.

        • K-Dog August 13, 2013 at 7:53 pm #

          Not a single link or citation in the entire post, but please don’t answer with even more empty wind. I have more important things to do than argue with a government stooge. It’s nap time.

  85. rube-i-con August 13, 2013 at 2:33 pm #

    Here’s a perfect example of how you morons never respond with facts to back up your attacks. This comes from puzzler in response to my post on german and solar:

    <Not many of us are waiting for a response to your ignorant question. Every time you post one of your cheerleader spews you just show your lack of basic knowledge — in this case physics and economics.

    Stating bad ideas over and over again does not make them good ideas.

    Yeah puzzler, still waiting for your argumentation to show me how i’m wrong, chickenshit.

    peace peaceniks

  86. tapering hairball August 13, 2013 at 2:34 pm #

    What is your address?

    Evidence now, for all to see. You made a personal claim in public, now reveal the evidence for that claim in the same venue you presented that claim. The only evidence I see for you in the files is your predilection for very young Asian children of either gender. You know my address. I know your address. Our addresses are not relevant to your proof. Give us your proof now. I’m not asking any longer, that’s an order.

  87. janet August 13, 2013 at 2:47 pm #

    Files? Are you a paid troll, paid to bait others? I’m done with you.

  88. Bowker Whiting August 13, 2013 at 3:04 pm #

    That can’t be the Janet we’ve come to know and love. If it is, she’s come undone.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UoIMwQEgL8

  89. George August 13, 2013 at 3:31 pm #

    “Rather, I would settle for the simpler diagnosis that we’re just flat fucked, having made all the wrong choices on just about everything for a very long time.”

    My sense is that this is going to be a somewhat drawn out affair that could go on for decades punctuated by periodic rapid fire financial failures accompanied by feeding frenzies.

    The analogy I recall involved comparing automobile, train and ship accidents. An automobile crash lasts just a few seconds usually ending with the tinkling of shattered glass. By comparison, a train wreck can last much longer with rail cars lumbering in seeming slow motion off the tracks for upwards of a minute. When two ships collide, the collision takes in excess of a noisy minute of grinding sounds punctuated by periodic bangs as bulkheads give way.

    The US economy is massive, complex and linked in many ways to other economies in the global community. The collision, if you’ll permit me, is already underway and has been in some manner ever since the first OPEC oil embargo way back in ’73. The periodic crashes we’ve been witness to ever since were just the inevitable economic bulkhead failures. Perhaps Quantitative Easing could be understood to be akin to Air Bags inflating to lessen the impact of the crash?

    The point is this: the crash has already been underway for decades and is likely to continue for a few more decades before the inertia’s all spent.

    http://www.thesisa.org

    • toktomi August 13, 2013 at 4:38 pm #

      Hi, George, I’ve read a number of folks who are much smarter and better informed than me that agree with you that the collapse will likely be a long process.

      However, I cannot imagine a process by which technologies can devolve in size and complexity in any orderly or survivable fashion. Among the plethora of problems associated with the notion of symmetrical down-scaling are the sheer size of the populations that will still need to be fed from the highly degraded biosphere and the virtual absence of progressively older technologies that would be necessary over time. The fading of some technologies will invoke complete devastation. Imagine when the electricity goes off or when the gas supplies dry up.

      Fire up your scenario analyzing software and plug in “nobody is buying the U.S. debt” which is just ahead. Do ya reckon that ought to be a bit of a detonation that will add significant velocity to the deflation of the ponzi bubble?

      Besides, why would anyone rule out a controlled demolition? Personally, I can’t imagine how it can go any other way. What would you do with a few [or more] $trillion?

      ~toktomi~

  90. janet August 13, 2013 at 4:20 pm #

    George, why do you date the slow motion train wreck from the 1970s? Why not the 1930s or the banking crises of the 1800s? Why an unraveling of decades? Why not centuries… To validate Marx’ prediction that capitalism contains within it the seeds of its own destruction.

  91. Bowker Whiting August 13, 2013 at 4:26 pm #

    Why stop at capitalism? Why not go to the heart of it; civilization? Marx’ prediction makes even more sense then. Civilization contains within it the seeds of its own destruction. But alas, it also contains the seeds of its rebirth. Is there a way to stop this death and rebirth cycle of civilization and opt for something entirely new and profound? I don’t know, but it’d sure be nice, wouldn’t it?

  92. janet August 13, 2013 at 4:42 pm #

    Why stop at civilization? Why not go to the heart of it: attachment. Attachment is the cause of suffering, ignorance, and the illusion of separation.

  93. Bowker Whiting August 13, 2013 at 5:02 pm #

    Yes, attachment. Civilization is the formal codification of attachment; the collective and aggregate manifestation and embodiment of it. Civilization is an orgasmic orgy of attachment, and this small, insignificant space is no exception. Look how attached personalities here are to screen names and gender roles. They can’t let it go. They must carry the pathology of attachment from out there to in here because it’s all they know. Civilization has conditioned them to attach like nature has conditioned a barnacle to attach to a whale. I say, detach and be free. If you can’t do it here, you can’t do it anywhere, so it starts here. Let’s not attach to screen names and gender roles. Let’s just be free-flowing thought.

    • Bowker Whiting August 13, 2013 at 5:13 pm #

      That could also read “from in there to out here” and probably should. It’s more fitting. When you attach to everything and anything, you are contained in a prison of your own making; a cell and hence the “in there.”

    • Janos Skorenzy August 13, 2013 at 10:35 pm #

      Liberation is living naked in the jungle eating bugs and fruits. A second class ape. Shucks, even the pygmies are better than that. Guess they’re still “clinging”.

  94. rube-i-con August 13, 2013 at 6:07 pm #

    ok folks, there needs to be some basic ground rules here. an argument, you know, something you state as being true, needs to have facts to support it.

    other than that, it’s your worthless opinion against mine.

    FACTS, bitches, cite something that bolsters your stance on the issues.

    I have done this site the very grand honour of destroying its central supposition, i.e. that we are doomed because petroleum is running out, which will in turn mean an end to our petroleum-dependent lifestyles.

    I have cited a study showing that solar power has the ability to replace vast amounts of petroleum-based energy sources, citing a real-world example of Germany attaining 60% of its entire power needs for a few days this year.

    now, bitches, shoot me down with FACTS or fuck off to your loser doomsday lives.

    you can’t.

    i’m waiting for the invective, for i know that no facts will be stated to dethrone me.

    you people make me sick. is THIS what ‘thinking’ americans have devolved into?

    ugh, good riddance to bad rubbish.

    i can still say, in all hope, though….

    peace peaceniks

    • toktomi August 13, 2013 at 6:41 pm #

      That’s cute – silly but cute.

      fact: /fakt/ A thing that is indisputably the case.

      The key here is INDISPUTABLE.

      What in this wide ol’ universe is indisputable? Well, nothing is indisputable, obviously.

      But, you’re getting there. Yes, indeed, all that we have is “opinion”, not so “worthless” but rather quite useful, even to the point of being essential. And, if I may bring to your attention, we are damned privileged to be able to have opinions.

      Don’t be deceived as most are by misconception that shared opinion equates to fact. The human brain is an incredible, self-deceiving prankster.

      Now, get your head on straight, lose that opinion that there is such a thing as knowable fact, and begin to learn a story of how human societies can exist based on opinion alone.

      Do you think that you can see a tree?
      Or do you believe that you merely see some light reflected off a tree?
      What can you say that you know about a tree if you cannot see it?
      And if you believe that you can see light, then show me some light.
      Don’t point out there and tell me that is the thing that you believe is hitting you in the eye.
      Show me the light.

      ~toktomi~

      • Janos Skorenzy August 13, 2013 at 10:53 pm #

        Hasidic tale: Student goes to his Father saying “Father I’ve lost my faith. I can prove or disprove anything, such as you or I don’t exist. Father, “Anything? Even that you don’t have a nose”? Son, “Yes, even that”. The Father punches him in the nose and then sweetly asks, “What hurts”?

    • anti dod August 13, 2013 at 8:44 pm #

      PEAK EVERYTHING.

      “I have done this site the grand honour of destroying its central supposition, we are doomed because petroleum is running out”

      We may be doomed by the ‘Extra Billion every 12 years” Factor.
      And not White nations must ‘welcome the stranger’ [quote from the Pope].

      • Janos Skorenzy August 13, 2013 at 10:40 pm #

        I love it, calling tens of millions of aliens “the stranger”. Why not call them a plague of locusts? That’s biblical and far more accurate in terms of numbers and effects.

  95. progress4what August 13, 2013 at 6:42 pm #

    “I have done this site the very grand honour of destroying its central supposition, i.e. that we are doomed because petroleum is running out,” – welles? –

    Au contraire, rubicon, it’s been months since JHK mentioned oil shortages leading to societal collapse.

    Here lately, the central supposition has been that economic collapse will lead to societal collapse. I find this supposition less than totally convincing, but I still enjoyJHK’sprose and SOME of the discussions that flow from it.

    If I were to try to write some doom prose – I would emphasize climate change, global pandemics, or similar things – as the triggers leading to societal collapse.

    Now – will you PLEASE explain WHY you are devoting all of this mental energy toward “the very grand honour of destroying its central supposition,”

    After a certain point – that makes you a simple Troll.

    Are you sure you’re really Welles?

    • ozone August 13, 2013 at 7:17 pm #

      Ah, but the loss of confidence in the ‘coin of the realm’ can lead to some dicey situations whereby the go-juice becomes denominated in whatever the black-marketeers decide they want for it..

      Just one opinion, mind you, here’s another that reaches beyond the current ‘civilized’ setup:

      http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2013/08/how-not-to-organize-community.html#more

      Who Do You Trust?

      • K-Dog August 14, 2013 at 7:36 pm #

        My comment there is on topic but I did not deal with his main point of those could being currently disadvantaged be in a better place and space to survive a collapse.

        A fast collapse might make it so but if the collapse is slow those more currently disadvantaged fade away and die. That’s my take on it.

        Rome fell into a thousand little kingdoms each with their own warlords some of which evolved into royalty. Dmitry suggests the same with Mafia rule appearing to fill roles government drops.

        ‘Homage to Catalonia’ documents that in time of war and revolution movements and organizations become hijacked and usurped, stolen by outside forces.

        A fast collapse and all bets could be off and the luck of the draw on who is close to food may be all that matters. A complicated issue and thought provoking. – K-Dog

    • Janos Skorenzy August 13, 2013 at 10:47 pm #

      He’s thinking outside the box, Kunstler’s in this case. We need more of this. The discussion is beyond my expertise but I quoted a few cases that strengthen welles’s case. Why people want to insult him rather than discuss it is the question. He’s right about that being a horrible indictment on American character – especially since Liberals were supposed to be the champions of this very thing.

      It’s been a long time since we’ve had a real intellectual debate here isn’t it? People without religion tend to turn all kinds of other belief system into matter of faith you see.

  96. progress4what August 13, 2013 at 6:51 pm #

    “I think I will write a book called Too Much Irony because the irony practiced in these haunts is highly ritualistic.”
    – “carol, the irony princess, aka “downstairs mixup”

    “Let’s not attach to screen names and gender roles. Let’s just be free-flowing thought.”
    – “carol,” the no-screen-names-princess, aka “bowker whiting” –

    Q-Stick – I do believe that the tech guy ignored your advice.
    You probablyshouldn’t have called him a nerd.

    That would have pissed me off, too.

    And I still think janetasoka could be “carol.”
    I’ve got two eyes for lies. hehe!

  97. rube-i-con August 13, 2013 at 7:07 pm #

    Now – will you PLEASE explain WHY you are devoting all of this mental energy toward “the very grand honour of destroying its central supposition,”

    After a certain point – that makes you a simple Troll.

    ‘after a certain point’ – could that possibly be the ‘point’ where someone shoots me down based on real-world facts? i hope so.
    til now, it’s just invective.

    the bloody site’s supposed to discuss energy descent. i have demonstrated the grand possibility of energy ascent. no one has shown me where i am wrong.

    all i get is ‘you’re wrong, you’re full of it, you’re a troll, it’s a bad idea’.

    juuusssttt nitwits all around. i’d love to get a single factual refutation of what i said regarding germany. krautland is just a placeholder for the potential the planet has to power itself. don’t you get it? if a country that gets very little sun is massively succeeding in powering itself, despite using colossal amounts of energy, what might be achieved if we put the same effort into it in the US, or in a very sunny country?

    should be THE most intriguing subject matter for the folks out here, since it’s the crux of jhk’s whole future-world scenario, i.e. there’s no more energy, relatively speaking.

    since i’ve dealt a massive blow, and his central tenet is reeling, it’s time for everyone to put up, or shut up.

    for god’s sake, everyone stop the Troll shit, the paid poster shit. just shoot me down with facts. you people would tell jesus he was a paid poster, that’s all you’ve got.

    waiting over 3 weeks now for a cogent reply….especially from JHK. where are you on this one, jimmy boy? silent as USUAL.

    peace peaceniks

    • progress4what August 13, 2013 at 7:13 pm #

      “Because renewable power sources have been so unreliable, Germany has been forced to construct numerous new coal plants in an effort to replace the nuclear energy it has taken offline. In fact the country will build more coal-fired facilities this year than at any time in the past two decades – bringing an estimated 5,300 megawatts of new capacity online. Most of these facilities will burn lignite, too, which is strip-mined and emits nearly 30 percent more carbon dioxide than hard coal.

      In other words Germany is dirtying the planet in the name of clean energy – and sticking its citizens with an ever-escalating tab so it can subsidize an energy source which will never generate sufficient power.

      This is the cautionary tale of command energy economics – one other nations would be wise to heed.”
      http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2013/03/14/germanys-green-energy-disaster-a-cautionary-tale-for-world-leaders/

      My, my – that was easy, “welles.”

      • rube-i-con August 13, 2013 at 8:22 pm #

        wow, you know, you absolutely just proved that the entire solar power industry can never, ever replace fossil fuels. because Forbes magazine says so…

        not too fast, buckeroo. first off, thanks FINALLY for some attempted rebuttal based on argumentation.

        however, your post is fatally flawed because it doesn’t attack my central premise, that solar, i.e. renewable energy, is showing itself to be an increasingly viable substitute for fossil based fuels, i.e. it has the demonstrable ability to generate game-changing amounts of power.

        simply saying that germany is building coal-fired plants to replace NUCLEAR REACTORS taken offline and consequently will produce more co2…how does that refute that solar can replace fossil fuel sources? non sequitur.

        germany has gone from ZERO percent energy from renewables 30-40 years ago to around A FULL QUARTER OF ALL ITS POWER FROM RENEWABLES IN 2013. the trend is irrefutable: solar is producing more and more of the country’s power.

        look at this quote from your post:

        In other words Germany is dirtying the planet in the name of clean energy – and sticking its citizens with an ever-escalating tab so it can subsidize an energy source which will never generate sufficient power.

        where is the scientific data that proves this? that solar and wind will ‘never’ generate sufficient power? germany gets 20-25% of all its energy needs from solar and wind: http://www.alternet.org/environment/while-germany-headed-80-renewable-energy-were-getting-left-dust

        solar and wind generated 0% in 1950 in germany. in 2013, solar alone generated 60% of germany’s needs on certain days. the demonstrable trend is irrefutable, and that trend is only MORE ENERGY PRODUCTION FROM SOLAR (and wind). ergo, more solar installation will, in time, reduce pollution levels.

        germany is only symbolic of what solar can achieve globally, as is stated in my last post:

        krautland is just a placeholder for the potential the planet has to power itself. don’t you get it? if a country that gets very little sun is massively succeeding in powering itself, despite using colossal amounts of energy, what might be achieved if we put the same effort into it in the US, or in a very sunny country?

        germany gets 39 TIMES less sunlight than the US: https://www.google.com.br/search?q=germany+gets+39+times+less+sun+than+the+US&oq=germany+gets+39+times+less+sun+than+the+US&aqs=chrome.0.69i57j69i62l3.8406j0&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&fp=526119d4a4cbb23a&q=germany+gets+3%2C900%25+less+sun+than+the+US

        the issue is what we are capable of achieving with solar power if we massively ramp up its installation. the figures are there from a country with very little sunlight.

        the issue is not that germany is building coal-fired power plants that emit co2 because nuclear plants were taken offline. that’s off point.

        for you to win, you have to show me that solar CANNOT power a country – germany is showing you the opposite, and its example can be MAGNIFIED in sunnier countries like the US, middle east, spain, etc. that is what the science is saying. that is what germany’s plain fact figures are saying.

        all of the technicals for solar are positive – less cost per kwH, less expensive panels, more efficient panels, massive jumps in energy conversion, such as this one promising a 100-fold increase in efficiency from Stanford/UCAL: http://scitechdaily.com/new-solar-energy-device-is-100-times-more-efficient-than-previous-design/

        where, oh where, is the rebuttal of the Stanford study that says solar, on a worldwide basis, is producing, or is very close to producing (and will) more energy than it takes to produce the panels?

        Once we gain that critical mass of installed panels generating more energy than it takes to create them, by definition solar becomes a net economic gain.

        keep denying the mountain til you drive right into it.

        i might agree with you if it were 1970.

        so, the kunstler gibe that energy descent is ineluctible stands demolished still….

        “next taker, anyone a taker?”

        peace peaceniks

  98. Q. Shtik August 13, 2013 at 7:44 pm #

    Welles,

    In this link read in particular about the bursting of the solar subsidies bubble.

    http://thebreakthrough.org/index.php/voices/michael-lind/the-solar-energy-bubble-bursts/

    • Q. Shtik August 13, 2013 at 8:28 pm #

      Welles,

      Do a 10 year chart on JA Solar, a Chinese solar company (symbol JASO). Look at the 90+% drop in 2008 when the Govt subsidies bubble burst. I chose to mention this particular stock since I once owned it but you could look at almost any solar stock (US, Canada, Germany) and they will all look similar.

      The ending or reduction of Govt subsidies assures that solar can’t compete with other (traditional) energy sources.

      • anti dod August 13, 2013 at 8:46 pm #

        And Oil is not subsidized?
        JHK, if I recall, wrote that the real price of a gallon is 20$.

      • Janos Skorenzy August 13, 2013 at 11:02 pm #

        Maybe not – now. But is that the same as saying that Solar/Wind couldn’t pick up the slack when we run out? And to do that, we have to start now.

  99. Q. Shtik August 13, 2013 at 9:21 pm #

    You probably shouldn’t have called him a nerd.

    That would have pissed me off, too. – Prog

    When I corresponded with him in early July this is how he signed his email:

    “Neil Grabowsky, Head Nerd
    Jersey Nerds

    501 Bloomfield Ave.
    Montclair, NJ 07042
    (973) 797-9933
    neil@thejerseynerds.com

  100. Q. Shtik August 13, 2013 at 10:02 pm #

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23672091

    ISLAM IS A RELIGION OF PEACE

  101. Neon Vincent August 13, 2013 at 10:30 pm #

    Speaking of the tattoo economy, Oakland County is having its annual celebration of happy motoring this week, the Woodward Dream Cruise. It may be a nostalgic fete of a bygone era of cheap oil and all it made possible, but it’s a great return of dopamine and adrenaline returned on gasoline invested.

    Here’s a link to the video of the highlights of the final evening of last years cruise. Have a good time and remember what I used to sign off with every week: Happy Motoring–for now–from Detroit!

    http://crazyeddiethemotie.blogspot.com/2013/01/finally-last-night-of-2012-dream-cruise.html

    • Janos Skorenzy August 14, 2013 at 12:26 am #

      Good beheading site. It’s in the Quran.

      http://actforamerica.wordpress.com/tag/beheadings/

      • Neon Vincent August 14, 2013 at 1:12 am #

        What did I tell you last week, Impaler? I told you, you disgusting racist religious bigot vampire, that every time you engaged me, I’d insult you and then turn any response of mine to my advantage. I’ve already insulted you, you bloodsucker, now watch me turn this to my advantage.

        http://crazyeddiethemotie.blogspot.com/search/label/Liar%20for%20Jesus

        Every time you respond, you make me stronger. Do you really want to help me that much?

        • Janos Skorenzy August 14, 2013 at 3:07 am #

          I thought I was responding to Q. But what bothered you about my post anyway? Are you a Muslim or just sticking up for them? If the latter, why? Surely you don’t doubt that they cut people’s heads off do you? Or do you just hate America and Christians so much that you reason the enemy of my enemy is my friend? Dangerous Vinny, dangerous. They’ll be coming after you after they finish off the Christians and the Jews.

          • Neon Vincent August 14, 2013 at 8:59 am #

            “But what bothered you about my post anyway?”

            You, Impaler, you. I don’t like you. You can spread your White Supremacist, Islamophobic message elsewhere on the site and I’ll ignore it. Respond to me with it, or anything else, for that matter, and you’ll just get more of what I’ve giving you now, insults.

            Now, vampire, I have a special song for you. It’s Bauhaus singing “Bela Lugosi’s Dead.” It’s embedded at the end of this entry about “While the World Burns, Farmville Thrives.” If that’s not enough for you, I have Nouvelle Vague’s version embedded in three other entries.

            http://crazyeddiethemotie.blogspot.com/2011/09/silly-sustainability-saturday-while.html

  102. anti dod August 14, 2013 at 1:49 am #

    when the lamestream talks about that ‘China Miracle’, remember:
    One advantage of dehumanizing the unborn is that it increases the food supply. The ChiComs lead so that Western liberals may follow:

    Some Chinese people are known to be eating babies, and the news, which has been circulating through the internet and via email, is shocking the world.

    An email report received by The Seoul Times confirmed that news with several vivid and appalling pictures of human embryos and fetuses being made into a soup for human consumption.

    The report went on. A town in the southern province of Canton (Guangdong) is now in focus. Chinese folks there are enjoying baby herbal soup to increase overall health and stamina and the power of sexual performance in particular.

    If it works as well as they say, the enhanced sexual performance would lead to more babies to make into soup, leading to further enhanced sexual performance, et cetera.

    Before clicking through to the source, be advised that the graphic pictures could put you off soup for the rest of your life. Liberals shouldn’t be bothered though; after all, dead fetuses are just gobs of cells, according to their ideology.
    [via moon battery]

    • Janos Skorenzy August 14, 2013 at 3:16 am #

      What would Baba say? Probably what Mother Theresa said, “If abortion isn’t wrong, nothing is wrong”. Eating them is just a logical extension of denying them their humanity.

      Jews seemed to dominate the Yoga seekers of the 60’s. Interesting. Perhaps a statement of the deadness of contemporary Judaism? But was Christianity much better?

      http://www.onetrackheartmovie.com/

      The prophecies for Kali Yuga do mention a return to cannibalism but no this per se.

  103. Carol Newquist August 14, 2013 at 5:49 am #

    Wow, I’m out in the field for the day, and CFN gets a bunch of new and refreshing visitors. It’s nice to see. Stick around, we need some fresh air to clear out the trapped stale odor of piss and fecal matter that emanates from these invalids. Welcome! Bienvenidos! Ya’ll come back now, ya hear.

    Neon, Janos is an imposter just like the rest of this cabal of screen names that’s chosen this blog as its sordid hangout. Like a Hells Angels clubhouse, this cabal of socks, commanded by maybe one or two people, quite literally rapes any interloper who happens to enter. Janos is too absurd to be taken seriously. That’s the point. Certain screen names have to be what are referred to as the “heavies”, meaning they are so over-the-top absurd they can’t be believed. The other socks “tolerate” these “heavy” absurd socks but marginalize them, so they can convey their racist-light schtick. The janet and rube-i-con socks are the opposition socks and it’s important to note the imbalance. In setting up your own opposition, you want to ensure you maintain the imbalance in the direction you ultimately want the unwitting audience to take. This is why I’ve been a thorn in the sock operator(s) side since my arrival. I’m not part of the plan, and I throw a wrench in the works. I do it for free as a service to Humanity. I’m better than it. It knows it.

    • Elmendorf August 14, 2013 at 7:55 am #

      Good grief, YOU talking about this place being “commanded by one or two people” when you’re one of the most notorious overposters on the site??

      You don’t “throw a wrench into the works” because your posts, like the one I’m replying to, are nothing but name calling with the sophomoric patina of a high-sounding realpolitik. Q. and many others have been onto your pseudo-sophistication for over a year so howza ’bout you just simmer down.

      Your post above is CONTENT FREE yet it contains about ten dozen words.

      E.

    • Janos Skorenzy August 14, 2013 at 1:31 pm #

      I’m not a Sock Puppet but a Marionette. Who controls my strings? My Soul.

      Neon isn’t a Sock but just a liberal fool or a libfool.

  104. Carol Newquist August 14, 2013 at 5:57 am #

    Not that the profile of the “Q. Shtik” screen name is to be believed, but in the hypothetical, if it were real, what fitting retribution this will be to such a loathsome scumbag. I smile at the idea of this toxic sludge being dumped on this fictional character’s doorstep. May this fictional entity called “Q. Shtik” wallow in the toxic stew of his own making for eternity, if only there was one.

    http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/opinion/index.ssf/2012/06/frack_waste_would_devastate_ne.html

    New Jersey has a history of getting dumped on. Now we’re about to get fracking waste as well. Next door in Pennsylvania, they’re going so hog wild on fracking that gas drilling companies have generated more than 1.3 billion gallons of toxic wastewater in just a few years as they extract gas from underground shale rock. But where to put it?

    Well, New Jersey, of course. Drilling companies shipped over a million gallons of wastewater to a DuPont treatment facility in Salem County. More is sure to come if we don’t stop it now.

    Fracking wastewater is nasty stuff — laced with toxics like benzene, heavy metals and even radioactive material. It has contaminated drinking water sources from Pennsylvania to New Mexico, and there are no federal standards to treat this waste.

    Legislation to ban the treatment and disposal of all fracking waste (S253/A575) has been introduced in the New Jersey Legislature. We urge all local legislators to support this legislation and we urge Senate President Stephen Sweeney to post this bill for a vote in the state Senate before the end of June.

    Alec Zucker
    Campaign Coordinator,
    Environment New Jersey

  105. Carol Newquist August 14, 2013 at 6:13 am #

    One advantage of dehumanizing the unborn is that it increases the food supply. The ChiComs lead so that Western liberals may follow:

    Some Chinese people are known to be eating babies, and the news, which has been circulating through the internet and via email, is shocking the world.

    An email report received by The Seoul Times confirmed that news with several vivid and appalling pictures of human embryos and fetuses being made into a soup for human consumption.

    ChiComs? Rush loves to use this word when referring to the Chinese.

    I think this is a heartening and hopeful story. This crowd at CFN has often touted that population overshoot is the problem, so here’s an organic, voluntary way to solve that problem…..and yet you morons, in contradictory fashion, complain about it. You don’t like this not because you care for the unborn, but because it deprives you of a malicious collapse. You must have your gnashing of teeth, and this undermines your fantasy. The Chinese people are smart…..they’re ahead of the curve on this one and many other things. They’re survivors.

    If you get right down to it, this is a merciful thing on their part, and holistically speaking, environmentally friendly and sustainable. It’s better to be unconscious and eaten than to be conscious and a slave. Rather than allowing these still unconscious poor slobs to be born into conscious misery and hardship, they turn them into life-sustaining sacrifices. What a wonderful idea. What a magnanimous gift. What an ingenious and personally empowering environmental solution that doesn’t require the strong arm of the state to implement and operate.

    This is a paradigm for all inhabitants of the globe to follow in the face of this collapse catastrophe so often trumpeted here at CFN. You should welcome and applaud this rather than chiding and admonishing it if your concern for potential of collapse is to be believed.

    Pass the soup, please. I’m starving.

  106. Carol Newquist August 14, 2013 at 7:13 am #

    This guy Riley Cooper should be kicked out of the NFL and his career ruined for using the word nigger. Shame on him.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dEQxO8Yuas

  107. Carol Newquist August 14, 2013 at 7:22 am #

    I see in this video he apologized. He pretty much got down on his knees, as it should be, but it’s still not good enough. He should be kicked out of the NFL and his career ruined. That would be justice.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4VOGiZCuBo

    Let this be a warning to you white creeps who feel compelled to say nigger. If you’re in any position of influence or celebrity, you should and will lose your status and credibility if you let your racism show in such a bold and audacious manner. Accept the fact graciously that your world is coming to an end and there’s nothing you can do about it. Relax. Let it happen. You’ll be better for it.

  108. progress4what August 14, 2013 at 7:45 am #

    “your world is coming to an end and there’s nothing you can do about it.” – “carol” –

    My, my, “carol,” you sound just like “asoka” used to sound.

    And janet/karah/downstairs,etc are all so similar as well.

    Now, why would that be?

  109. Carol Newquist August 14, 2013 at 8:09 am #

    Elmendorf August 14, 2013 at 7:55 am #

    According to the above sock’s profile, it resides in California. That would put this fictional person posting at 4:55am. Can’t sleep? An old fart who gets up at that time all the time? A psycho freak who sets its alarm for 4:30am so it can post content-free material at CFN? Or a sock operator who sometimes forgets who and what it’s supposed to be similar to an absent-minded professor putting on different colored socks accidentally. I’m going with the latter until proven otherwise.

    • Elmendorf August 14, 2013 at 5:01 pm #

      Only a doofus like you would extrapolate an entire person’s lifestyle based on one post made in the middle of the night.

      Anything I say about you involves no extrapolation. For example, a complete moron (i.e., someone smarter than you) can COUNT the number of posts you make and assume you’ve got no life.

      As usual, your literary style is dull because you think sophistication is the imaginative use of an ordinary word used over and over again until we get sick of it … like SOCK. Try NOT being dull, okay?

      E.

  110. ozone August 14, 2013 at 8:40 am #

    One for Q.
    Another market valuation opinion from “Dr. Doom”:

    http://www.lewrockwell.com/2013/08/mac-slavo/major-market-meltdown-this-fall%E2%80%A8/

    “For those invested in stock markets, it may be time to take a short break. Based on recent earnings, current economic sentiment, and continued degradation in national employment figures, there is a serious disconnect between what Wall Street wants you to think and what’s actually happening on Main Street.”

    (There’s a Marc Faber vid attached to the article too, but you’ve probably already seen that on CNBC.)

  111. Carol Newquist August 14, 2013 at 8:51 am #

    One for Q.

    Ha! Another point of irony. This place is a swamp of irony, isn’t it? All you whiners bemoan Wall Street incessantly, and yet we have this fictional character “Q. Shtik” confessing he games the system just like the big boys on Wall Street. The only difference is the big boys on Wall Street are much better at it than this fiction that is “Q. Shtik”. In principle, the fiction that is “Q. Shtik” is no different than what JHK criticizes week in and week out. If it’s good enough for the fictional “Q. Shtik” than it’s good enough for the financial industry you all decry. Your contradictions, your irony and your hypocrisy are stark and funereal…….but also hilarious.

  112. rube-i-con August 14, 2013 at 8:58 am #

    Qshtik, govt subsidies on solar or not, or stock price crashing or not, is not germane to this arguent. can solar power, the simple question is, provide game-changing amount of power for modern industrialised countries?

    based on growing real-world experience, it appears the answer is yes.

    now refute that.

    don’t tell me coal is dirty, or that the govt subsidizes the panels.

    answer the simple question above.

    peace peaceniks

    • beantownbill. August 14, 2013 at 10:07 am #

      American culture is sadly deficient in scientific knowledge. It stands to reason, that because the largest source of energy in our immediate vicinity comes from the sun, we should also draw most of our energy from it. It seems that only TPTB are astute enough to put technology to work for themselves, while the masses are content to remain ignorant.

      As I’ve said so many times here, technology is not a living creature, it’s just a tool. Technology isn’t responsible for any of our issues. It can’t be because it has no consciousness nor free will. Humans are responsible for all the messes we find ourselves in.

      The question is, why do we debate whether or not solar is an economic source of energy, when we should be debating the best way to develop and utilize it?

  113. rube-i-con August 14, 2013 at 9:08 am #

    He should be kicked out of the NFL and his career ruined. That would be justice.

    where’s all the press coverage of tawana brawley tho, being forced to pay for lying about a rape that didnt happen? she kinda did much more than call someone a nigger, and it ruined the guy’s life. and she lied.

    oh wait, he was white, that doesn’t count. sorry, forgot it took place in the US, where you can’t say a certain word, unless you have a prized skin color.

    peace peaceniks

    • Elmendorf August 14, 2013 at 5:07 pm #

      Exactly, Rube-i-Con. Other “people of color” just love honkies. They adore them. Only honkie can be racist. How many Duke kids were tainted for years after unjustly accused of rape?

      I got news for all these Rainbow Coalition types: On the whole, blacks detest whites MORE THAN whites detest blacks. If given a choice for any political office of a black and white person, blacks will vote 80-99% for the black person regardless of merit.

      But as for culturally incestuous, nepotistic behavior … it’s hard to top Jews on this account. Oh yeah … owning five of the six major media companies and being ubiquitous in “financial services” is just a “coincidence”. Sheesh.

      E.

  114. ozone August 14, 2013 at 9:11 am #

    Fake mortgage documents? Nah, couldn’t happen…

    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article35845.htm

    Fraud? What fraud; I don’t see no steenkeeng fraud. (Of course, I have my eyes very tightly closed and my hands firmly clamped over my ears.)

  115. chomskyite August 14, 2013 at 9:26 am #

    Alright already! This is the second time I have to say that that the comments section of JHK’s blog is like some kind of gathering of incredibly tasteful, the most polite, and to be honest, most friendly bunch of folks that, I’d most humbly like to be associated with.

    Listen up corkers, by acting like a bunch of dorks does not bring down the writing ABOVE THE LINE, get it?

  116. Q. Shtik August 14, 2013 at 10:21 am #

    “If it’s good enough for the fictional “Q. Shtik” than it’s good enough for the financial industry…” – “Carol”

    then

  117. Q. Shtik August 14, 2013 at 10:36 am #

    The question is, why do we debate whether or not solar is an economic source of energy, when we should be debating the best way to develop and utilize it? – Bean

    There is no debate. Solar currently is not an economic source of energy. When it becomes an economic source it will be developed and utilized on a wide scale.

    In that regard, Charlie Munger, #2 man at Berkshire Hathaway says it is a certainty that oil will be in ever greater demand and at extremely high prices. I’ll go back and find the link and post it when time permits.

    • ozone August 14, 2013 at 10:57 am #

      Thanks for the link.
      I’m always interested in EROEI juxtaposed to political will, “PR” (propaganda), income stratification and Who’s In Charge (and Why).

      I’m sure there are more factors in that equation that determine future directions in energy supplies, but it seems likely EROEI and political will are the most important [at present].

    • beantownbill. August 14, 2013 at 11:41 am #

      Q, thanks for the link. Interesting article, but it’s concerned with the economic aspect of energy, whereas I’m talking about the civilizational aspect. We’re approaching an inflection point where our primary source of energy is probably running out, albeit gradually. Once the oil is gone, then it’s gone, finis. Sometime in the relatively near future, we are going to have to depend on other sources of energy for our survival. The primary use for fossil fuels will ultimatelyy be for agriculture, not fuel. We shouldn’t be using up our oil for power so fast.

      We ought to be using alternative energy sources, particularly solar, now. It is not a matter of cost, it’s a matter of continuing our civilization. A wise man prepares for the future in the present. I realize you are an accountant, but it’s time to look at things besides numbers or P/Ls.

      • Janos Skorenzy August 14, 2013 at 1:16 pm #

        We have to stop oil based agriculture as well. It’s killing the soil. Oil should be used for lubrication not fuel or fertilizers.

    • beantownbill. August 14, 2013 at 11:46 am #

      Q, thanks for the link. Interesting article, but it’s concerned with the economic aspect of energy, whereas I’m talking about the civilizational aspect. We’re approaching an inflection point where our primary source of energy is probably running out, albeit gradually. Once the oil is gone, then it’s gone, finis. Sometime in the relatively near future, we are going to have to depend on other sources of energy for our survival. The primary use for fossil fuels will ultimatelyy be for agriculture, not fuel. We shouldn’t be using up our oil for power so fast.

      We ought to be using alternative energy sources, particularly solar, now. It is not a matter of cost, it’s a matter of continuing our civilization. A wise man prepares for the future in the present. I realize you are an accountant, but it’s time to look at things besides numbers or P/Ls. Actions based solely on economics, at least from a policy point of view, have gotten us to the state we are now in. Don’t you think we ought to look at the big picture?

  118. Q. Shtik August 14, 2013 at 10:43 am #

    can solar power, the simple question is, provide game-changing amount of power for modern industrialised countries?

    Yes, when it becomes more economically viable than anything else out there. (See also my reply to Bean.)

    • Janos Skorenzy August 14, 2013 at 1:07 pm #

      And if you were out of gas on a back road in the wastes of Nevada – too far out to get cell phone service, could ethyl alcohol take the place of gas, get you out of there, and save your life? Sure, if your car was designed for it AND you had some with you.

      Economics aren’t everything. If we wait for alternate energies to become economically viable, it will be too late. We prepare now – while we have the Energy TO prepare. Needless to say this is where the Government comes in, as the government of Brazil did to facilitate their transition.

      This is good economics in the long run. Our private system is based on short term profits and can’t look that far ahead. They could be sued by the stockholders for doing so.

  119. Q. Shtik August 14, 2013 at 11:00 am #

    One for Q.
    Another market valuation opinion from “Dr. Doom”:
    – Ozone

    Funny you should bring this up. I have been thinking since last night of selling everything today. Yesterday on CNBC they were discussing something that goes by the colorful name “the Hindenburg Omen.” It’s some arcane set of data points that has a tremendous predictive record for calling market drops.

    As I look up from my laptop monitor I see the DOW is down 71 points.

    • ozone August 14, 2013 at 11:08 am #

      “…something that goes by the colorful name “the Hindenburg Omen.” -Q.

      Yikes!
      That’s a moniker that might strike fear into the heart of the most hardened floor trader! 😉

    • ozone August 14, 2013 at 12:46 pm #

      Q.,
      I should say that I have no skin in the market game that’s intentional, but nearly all of our vaunted institutions have arms and legs to lose thereby. That could be a breaking point for “the republic” [should there be a true crash] because it leads directly to more lack of confidence in the string-pullers. I believe that’s why JHK keeps tabs on these things.

    • Elmendorf August 14, 2013 at 5:11 pm #

      Hindenburg Omens are when new highs AND new lows are making new highs. However, I don’t believe in financial superstition. I believe in reality. And reality sez that Joe Average has less and less and less discretionary income so the 70% of the economy they comprise is in a depression … no matter what statistical legerdemain the Obama admin can come up with to make it seem like a roaring recovery.

      Only the stock market made a roaring recovery. That’s it. That’s all.

      E.

  120. Q. Shtik August 14, 2013 at 11:14 am #

    he games the system just like the big boys on Wall Street. The only difference is the big boys on Wall Street are much better at it than this fiction that is “Q. – “Carol”

    I don’t know nuthin ,’bout gaming any systems but you are certainly right that whatever the big boys on Wall Street are doing they are doing it better than me.

    P.S. Thanks for going back to your hermaphrodite handle, “Carol.” It makes it so much easier to keep track of you.

  121. BleatToTheBeat August 14, 2013 at 11:24 am #

    The Death of Western Culture

    The Steinway Piano Company was purchased by the Paulson & Company hedge fund. You know, one of those

    places that will exclude you from participation if you actually have to ask what the price of the

    $38,000 purse is.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-23699626

    I can hear it…So what? They still get to make pianos.

    I suppose. What could the down side possibly be?

    A $38,000 purse. That does seem to be the real story.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vi_-ZpCF8M

    • beantownbill. August 14, 2013 at 11:48 am #

      I didn’t realize that Steinway made purses. What a strange world we live in.

      • BleatToTheBeat August 14, 2013 at 12:03 pm #

        Off yer meds?

        • beantownbill. August 14, 2013 at 1:31 pm #

          Yeah, I was too busy looking at the naked Lady Ga Ga video. Or was it Honey Boo Boo? I get so mixed up sometimes. Maybe I should get out more often and shop for purses.

      • Janos Skorenzy August 14, 2013 at 1:10 pm #

        The composer who composed the Palestinian National Anthem was scheduled to appear at the BSO, but the Jews got him cancelled after his composition became known. They have made his life difficult ever since.

        • beantownbill. August 14, 2013 at 1:38 pm #

          What “national” anthem? Palestine isn’t even a country. You ought to stick to discussions about peak resources. You seem to have a good handle on that subject – and I agree with you about alternative energy sources.

          • Janos Skorenzy August 14, 2013 at 2:50 pm #

            Here tis. There is a Wiki Debate about the composer. I heard that it was a Greek gentleman but the main page cites a Muslim. A protest page lists a Greek collaborator. The song has a Greek jauntiness about it – I don’t think an Arab, Persian, or Turk would create something like this by themselves. After all an anthem is a European idea – the hard core Muslims don’t even believe in Nations. But Nations did exist in this area before Islam and since they were forced on them by colonialism, they certainly have the right to have them again. It’s complex but even under Islam, Egypt and Persia for example retained a separate identity.

            Palestine must become a Nation if Israel is to have peace. But the two Nations must remain separate since the Muslims will never forgive the Jews for what they did to them.

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCiH5UVCmAs

          • Elmendorf August 14, 2013 at 5:14 pm #

            Bill,

            If Palestine isn’t a country, I’d like to hear you have a discussion with the people living in Gaza City who are supposed to be living in THEIR territory … oh, ‘cept the Israeli Military gets to use ALL the roads and the Palestinians about 20% of them.

            E.

    • Janos Skorenzy August 14, 2013 at 1:13 pm #

      Oprah likes to go to Europe and terrorize White retail workers. What a monster.

      Some say she trying to garner publicity for her new movie – another hate Whitey movie.

      • Elmendorf August 14, 2013 at 5:17 pm #

        Oprah is a publicity hound whose opinions change like the wind. After 9/11 she appeared to be almost right wing like “let’s hunt ’em all down like dogs!!!”.

        Being as she’s black, she capitalizes on their “favored ethnic group” strategy much as Ellen DeGeneres is trying to make being a lesbo seem almost cuddly.

        Even George Orwell would have apoplexy watching our new, new “culture”.

        E.

  122. BleatToTheBeat August 14, 2013 at 1:14 pm #

    Hey Q!

    Here’s a blast from the past…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMWsCdReKps

  123. Janos Skorenzy August 14, 2013 at 1:33 pm #

    Rodeo Clown persecuted for wearing an Obama mask. Why?

    Rush says Republicans refuse to speak out against Obama out of fear of suffering the same fate as the clown.

  124. Q. Shtik August 14, 2013 at 3:48 pm #

    Now here’s a bad sign if there ever was one. In the right margin of my email screen the following ad appears:

    Learn how to get started FLIPPING HOUSES right here in the New York area

    Save a seat>

    Learn to create financial freedom finding and flipping homes

    • Karah August 14, 2013 at 4:09 pm #

    • Elmendorf August 14, 2013 at 5:35 pm #

      It’s because our narcotized culture has learned NOTHING from two crashes and a depression. Absolutely nothing.

      The house flipping stuff almost seems like one of those contrarian indicators meaning that whoever was going to buy in is already bought in. Shiller, of Case/Shiller Real Estate Index, avers that housing won’t recover for many DECADES, if ever.

      E.

  125. Karah August 14, 2013 at 4:07 pm #

    This is a very interesting dilemma set before the American people.

    If you are asked to collude with a government agency in order to spy on people (American or otherwise) would you do it?

    It has been determined by the courts that the INTERNET is a PUBLIC GATEWAY through which information (concealed or not) is traversing. The problem presented in the video above is a physical one and not necessarily an ideological one. We all agree there are people of any persuasion that are willing to knowingly or unknowingly do harm.
    Carriers (computer servers that store and transmit data) of information, in order to secure the information, do not have a key to access the information they carry. So how can anyone capitalize on the term “internet security” when a user can send a virus or any other harmful information without there being anyone or anything in a position to stop the harm from progressing because it is in the form of anonymous electrical signals? The computer virus is a prime example.

    Ideas are free. The methods used my the majority to transmit their ideas are not free. We take a risk every time we open our mouths that we may hurt someone’s feelings or be misunderstood. With free speech (i.e. various modes used to convey ideas) we all have a responsibility to each other as individuals and groups (we may assume when discussing things with anyone that it will be eventually revealed to a group at some time in the future) to be careful. The responsibility we have as human beings is to control what WE do and not what OTHERS do. This means when there is a possibility that we may harm someone by conveying our idea to someone or something else, we should NOT do it.

    If ONE has no other option before them than to keep silent (not writing, speaking, signaling, etc.) on a matter in order to ENSURE NO HARM to themselves or anyone else, for a specific time, this is good. If harm can be averted by one relaying a message within a specific time, this is better. So the problem is, to whom or with what do we use to relay such important and time sensitive ideas. How do we ensure we are not individually enlisted into a virtual “war game”. My blog and the personal opinions I may have expressed on my blog at anytime may be used by my audience (private or public) to do me harm or not. How much harm is really up to me, is it not?
    Yet, if my ideas or comments or byte space harms OTHERS that is not all up to me. I may not even be aware of it happening. It would be far from practical or progressive to live a mute existence. Civilizations and the societies that come from it thrive on the free flow of information and goods. On the INTERNET, the timeliness of the information is the goods.

    When you go through an intranational or internationl gate in real life you expect to be questioned and know the answers to the questions: Who are you, What are you, Where are you, Why are you, When will you, How will you. It used to be enough to say “I’m an American citizen” to move freely through the U.S.A. and now it is NOT. That is the reality.

    • BleatToTheBeat August 14, 2013 at 4:27 pm #

      WHO are ye to be bitin’ me crank…
      WHAT ‘er ye to be bitin’ me crank…
      WHERE willst ya be when yer bitin’ me crank…
      WHY willst ya be bitin’ me crank…
      WHEN, oh WHEN willst thou be bitin’ me crank…

      And most importantly, HOW will ya be bitin’ me crank…

      Matey?

  126. Karah August 14, 2013 at 4:10 pm #

    http://www.democracynow.org/embed/story/2013/8/13/exclusive_owner_of_snowdens_email_service

    The video I attempted to imbed and or link to above…

  127. Elmendorf August 14, 2013 at 5:30 pm #

    And now back to our regularly scheduled programming i.e., energy. The reason that oil companies are reporting bad profits now is very simple: The number of units of energy they need per unit of energy extracted outta the ground is at an all time high. ERoEI. Plain and simple.

    That’s why your oil prices, hence your gasoline prices, are just going to incrementally go up, up, up. Supposedly, we can’t function above $85/bbl. One interesting personal figure I calculated here in CA is that just going from Palo Alto to San Francisco and back costs about $10 in gas with my good mileage econobox. It’s only 34 miles. If you are driving up there in a Chevy Suburban it’d be $20. Using a Suburban to drive to LA and back? Your gasoline alone will be north of $160 so now it’s more costly than a plane ticket.

    E.

    • beantownbill. August 14, 2013 at 6:22 pm #

      E, buy yourself a Prius like I did. I understand about the total energy cost of even a hybrid, but on a daily basis, the money I put out for traveling is minimal considering the value of the dollar now. A 68 mile round trip would cost me about $4 and change based on my current tank which is getting me 55 mpg. I grew up and sold off my 350Z, which got about 18 mpg. I’m happy.

      Responding to an earlier post of yours to me, I think the concept of “country” is not what it used to be, particularly with the asshole UN trying to assert its presence. It really doesn’t make a difference, in the practical sense, whether Palestine is a country or not because they are living where they’re living and have a natural identity. I know Israel got to be a country through the auspices of the same UN as well, so the current situation is unfair. Personally, I wouldn’t care if Palestine is a separate country, as long as they officially recognize the right for Israel to exist. Seems like a simple matter, but 3000 years of enmity is pretty hard to overcome.

      • Karah August 15, 2013 at 12:51 am #

        “It really doesn’t make a difference…whether Palestine is a [recognized] country or not…[as long as] they officially, recognize the right for Israel to exist. Seems like a simple matter,…”

        It’s not simple because Israel is not just asking to be recognized as a city state. Israel believes they are God’s chosen people and they are requiring everyone to recognize that, even people who no longer believe that AND want to occupy “the promised land”.

        Let me break news to you…Israel and the USA will no longer tango over this matter because of the UN’s position being the arbitrator of all things public and private. Religious ideology will no longer matter soon and will be violently opposed by all nations as the last obstacle to world peace and prosperity via UN mandate. Simple.

      • Elmendorf August 15, 2013 at 1:10 am #

        I would do that, Bill, but in retirement I am driving less than 2000 miles a year. If I was still working and driving 7000 miles per year I’d get a Prius. Also, I never liked the way Prius’s looked. Just a matter of personal taste. I drive so little now that I might as well just keep my perfectly good Honda Civic which only has 90500 miles on it.

        I don’t have a problem with Israel’s right to exist but I do have a problem with the MSM trying to act like Gaza City is full of “free” PalestinIans. Even a sizable minority of Israeli citizens feel that if Gaza City is truly “Palestinian Territory” then by God don’t give Israel a constant military presence there and deny Palestinians access to the vast majority of ingress and egress roads.

        The MSM in America, and I don’t think you’ll dispute me on this one, really is dominated by pro-Israeli news and you don’t even hear about stuff like road access denial to Palestinians. I’m not a lover of Islam but they’re not all savages and terrorists as some would paint them.

        E.

  128. toktomi August 14, 2013 at 6:05 pm #

    rube says:

    “I have cited a study showing that solar power has the ability to replace vast amounts of petroleum-based energy sources, citing a real-world example of Germany attaining 60% of its entire power needs for a few days this year.

    now, bitches, shoot me down with FACTS or fuck off to your loser doomsday lives.”

    Hi, rube,

    Hey, I would be honored [not really] to spend a few minutes blowing at least a couple of gigantic holes in your assertion that solar power can replace any form of fossil fuel – this is too easy but it keeps me out of the beer joints. I have just pulled up the page that you referenced earlier about this study. Well, I hope to be back with you soon. If not, well, it’s just the ether-net and guess what, there will be no this-time-next-year which is to say that none of this shit matters a whit.

    “solar power has the ability to replace vast amounts of petroleum-based energy sources”

    “Isn’t that just like a wop? Brings a knife to a gun fight.”

    ~toktomi~

    • K-Dog August 14, 2013 at 6:31 pm #

      “solar power has the ability to replace vast amounts of petroleum-based energy sources”

      But that is 100% true, as is:

      “solar power is totally incapable of replacing vast amounts of petroleum-based energy sources”

      Also 100% true.

      Without context, talking points don’t mean shit. – K-Dog

      • toktomi August 15, 2013 at 12:31 am #

        Hi, K-Dog,

        It is meaningless to talk about what is “true” since there is physically no way that a human can know what is true.

        If we cannot begin to talk about what it is that we believe as opposed to “what is”, then there can be no evolution of the human consciousness.

        There is an opinion-only vocabulary that works logically quite well – much better than the dominant true/false and right/wrong dichotomous paradigm. The opinions-only paradigm allows for a much clearer picture [model] of the world. It’s major drawback is that it eliminates the ability to bully which has very little appeal to most of humanity.

        or so it seems to…

        ~toktomi~

  129. beantownbill. August 14, 2013 at 6:32 pm #

    It makes sense to me that we try harder to utilize the sun’s energy more because there’s so much of it. In a funny way, solar is just the opposite as organic fuels. Oil and gas must be delivered to the surface from underground, while solar must be delivered to the surface from above (I’m thinking solar power satellites). But the similarities end there. Solar energy will not run out in a few hundred years.

  130. Janos Skorenzy August 14, 2013 at 7:59 pm #

    Our thoughts and prayers are with the Egyptian Military tonight as they attempt to crush the Mob created by Democracy. Democracy is usually a bad idea unless constrained by a Constitution – a Republic in other words. The Constitution will changed by the unscrupulous unless the vote is limited to the qualified. Even then there will be challenges, but at least you’re in the ballpark of the possible.

    • Karah August 15, 2013 at 1:03 am #

      A constitution, republic and democracy are a secular construct and the majority of Egyptians want to legislate their religious beliefs. It’s not possible for them as it’s not been possible for the USA. All the laws that have been based in the Christian belief system have been challenged in courts and overturned or are being overturned as we speak and it only took about 50 years. Egypt doesn’t have the luxury of being restrained by 100 years of SECULAR court cases because they refuse to let sharia law be wiped out like christian law is being wiped out. They feel their religious way of life is being threatened from all quarters and a big part of the fight is that they’ve lost control of the peaceful aspects of their religious beliefs succumbing like the rest of the world – mad grab for power and money.

  131. Janos Skorenzy August 14, 2013 at 8:05 pm #

    Two new shows coming out: a Black Ironsides and a Legend of Sleepy Hollow filled with Blacks. There is already a show with a Jewish Sherlock Holmes with Watson an Asian Female. The appropriation of our culture continues. All White statues will be pulled down. The first “person” on the moon will become Neela Armstrong, a Black female.

    • anti dod August 15, 2013 at 12:06 am #

      Saw the poster tonite for the ‘mixed race’ couple in Sleepy Hallow.
      How about the poster for’The Millers’ [with ‘drug dealer’ affixed to blond] and ‘The Goldbergs’!

      Every film now has to have a Black star.

      Here:
      Archie Bunker was a Trojan Horse.
      According to Kevin MacDonald,

      “By the end of its 12-year run, even archenemy Archie Bunker had
      raised a Jewish child in his home,
      befriended a black Jew,
      gone into business with a Jewish partner,
      enrolled as a member of a synagogue,
      praised his close friend at a Jewish funeral,
      hosted a Sabbath dinner,
      participated in a bat mitzvah ceremony,
      and joined a group to fight synagogue vandalism.”
      I see. In other words he “evolved” to see things the right way, or the way Norman Lear and his kinsmen want whites to think and behave, in the final years of the show.

      I’m still on the first season, so Archie hasn’t had his multicultural catharsis yet.”

      • Elmendorf August 15, 2013 at 1:17 am #

        MacDonald’s portrayal of “All in the Family” as a “Trojan Horse” is a brilliant metaphor. It’s also Norman Lear’s absurd attempt to foist Orwellian (i.e., nonsensical) “truths” on people as if a guy like Bunker would ever have such “epiphanies” in real life.

        Funny that Bunker only evolved IN THAT REGARD but not in almost any other way. Such bullshit and it’s being passed to the viewing public as “cultural evolution”.

        E.

    • anti dod August 15, 2013 at 12:10 am #

      Speaking of statues, Y’ALL GOTTA CHECK:

      http://moonbattery.com/?p=34722

      It’s only 1 and 1/2 minutes. Do check!

      • Elmendorf August 15, 2013 at 1:21 am #

        Thanks for the link, Anti. Isn’t it ironic that Smerconish is supposed to be MSNBC’s vanguard AGAINST “political correctness”? Yes, if blacks beat up whites we must find a justification so whitey can NEVER play the race card but if a fucking STATUE of a black person is vandalized it’s a “hate crime”.

        Welcome to Soviet Amerika.

        E.

  132. janet August 15, 2013 at 12:37 am #

    Rube-I-con, thank you for trying to have a serious argument concerning energy.

    So far there has been name-calling attacking you but no credible response to the facts you presented.

    There have been irrelevant responses talking about economics and political will, both of which Germany overcame, but no credible response to the real world science and math in your argument.

    There have been attempts to distract through semantic games about what a fact is or about “context” even though you provided specific facts in a specific context, but no refutation of real world science.

    I have to conclude that your optimism, supported by your real world example, is sound. The pessimists here are ignoring reality because it goes against their doomer dogma.

    • toktomi August 15, 2013 at 1:26 am #

      Oh, geez, really?

      Quite simply, an energy source that requires energy expenditures to produce in multiples greater than equal amounts of petroleum energy is not a replacement for petroleum energy.

      I am guessing/hoping that you understand the concept and ramifications of energy-returned-on-energy-invested where 1:1 sources nowhere begin to be considered as replacements for 10:1 sources or for, as was the case in the old days of industrial expansion and infrastructure establishment, 100:1 sources.

      Too many spooks and not enough real people around these parts these days, I’m guessing. So, who do I have on the line, a moron or a spook or a troll?

      People, people, people, all of this nonsense is, well, nonsense. The Fed is readying to turn off the economic/financial life support systems. You need to be spending your time, not on debating trivia, but on deciding, planning, and executing how you want to be spending your last days.

      Y’all have been a momentary distraction anyway,

      ~toktomi~

      • ozone August 15, 2013 at 8:16 am #

        I hear you, loud and clear.
        Trivia and useless [and unending] speculations are the ‘fun’ part of paid trollery…
        A lot of acculturated crapola is soon to become so moot, it might never have existed. Two words for an ossified system: Too Late.

  133. Karah August 15, 2013 at 1:29 am #

    I’ve seen and heard the news about Germany’s big solar conversion.
    They didn’t have to convince the landowners to do it because they were going to make money off the deal. Not everyone is on board until they see some time pass. Citizens are already complaining about their energy costs still going up in order to finance the conversion/transition. They really don’t believe what the world is headed for and Germany will not be immune to the affects just like the USA won’t be inoculated from the effects of a growing population, mismanagement due to unforeseen consequences and resource/land scarcity. The world is in crisis mode with no exemptions for those with good intentions.

  134. hbobrien August 15, 2013 at 3:34 am #

    “Mr. Summers will be entering the scene the way Vincent Price used to enter a Hammer Studio horror film…”

    I guess Mr. Kunstler doesn’t think Mr. Summers will be made Fed chairman after all? Because Mr. Price never appeared in any Hammer films.

  135. Pucker August 15, 2013 at 4:36 am #

    Parents Projected to Spend $241,080 to Raise a Child Born in 2012, According to USDA Report

    WASHINGTON, August 14, 2013 – Today, the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) released its annual report, Expenditures on Children by Families, also known as the Cost of Raising a Child. The report shows that a middle-income family with a child born in 2012 can expect to spend about $241,080 ($301,970 adjusted for projected inflation*) for food, shelter, and other necessities associated with child-rearing expenses over the next 17 years. This represents a 2.6 percent increase from 2011. Expenses for child care, education, health care, and clothing saw the largest percentage increases related to child rearing from 2011. However, there were smaller increases in housing, food, transportation, and miscellaneous expenses during the same period. The 2.6 percent increase from 2011 to 2012 is also lower than the average annual increase of 4.4 percent since 1960.

  136. Carol Newquist August 15, 2013 at 5:26 am #

    They didn’t have to convince the landowners to do it because they were going to make money off the deal.

    Similar to fracking in the U.S. The fracking companies pay the landowners royalties and because of this, most capitulate and take the deal. I’d much prefer as a landowner the solar panels to the toxic fracking fluid and the ensuing contamination of the drinking water. If crops and or livestock are being raised on that land that’s being fracked, I’d much prefer to consume meat and vegetables from land not fracked or affected by fracking, although, pretty soon, that will be near impossible……at least in the U.S.

    This commercial’s not meant to be satire, but it is when you juxtapose it with Josh Fox’s Gasland and Gasland II.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILFp-OgcHj4

  137. Carol Newquist August 15, 2013 at 5:49 am #

    You need to be spending your time, not on debating trivia, but on deciding, planning, and executing how you want to be spending your last days.

    And how are you preparing? Are you privy to the plans “they” have, or do “they” not have a plan? Is there a “they”? Preparing requires answers to a great many questions you and many others don’t even know how to ask, let alone answer. I’m as wary, if not more so, of people who incessantly bleat “we/you need to decide, plan and execute our plan” as I am of those who have a pollyanish attitude towards technological solutions. If there are spooks involved, they’re burning both ends of this candle and the ends of many others, that’s for sure. For all you spooks out there, or on here, fuck you and here’s my middle finger up in your face, as if you care. Suck it, shit heads. You’re errand boys sent by grocery clerks to collect a bill. In otherwords, you’re nobody…..you’re nothing. You think you’re smart, but you’re so dumb you can’t even figure that much out.

    I remember meeting one of these errand boys on the beach shortly after the GOM oil spill. We were vacationing and decided to jaunt over to the beach to spot any oil. I took the camera and was snapping photos left and right. A male in his late fifties, maybe mid-sixties approached. This man had a look and air about him that flashed implicitly that he was not a vacationer. He made a beeline for me I presume because I was snapping photos. I immediately sized him up and stared him down as he approached. It was obvious he was there to prevent people from taking evidence and documenting the spill in any way. I made it clear to this fuck through my eyes and my body language that he had no authority over me whatsoever and that if he dared to even say one thing about me snapping pictures he’d have more than he bargained for. He backed down and didn’t say shit, although I know he knew that I knew who and what he was, just as I know who and what some of you are. I’m still metaphorically snapping pictures and won’t stop. Ever. Never. I’m watching you.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dIiV4AKzOM

  138. Carol Newquist August 15, 2013 at 5:53 am #

    Such bullshit and it’s being passed to the viewing public as “cultural evolution”.

    Yes, and all those companies that advertize during its airing and thus allow it, financially, are supported by the likes of you and the fiction called “Q. Shtik” with your invested retirement funds……so SHUT THE FUCK UP AND PUT YOUR GODDAMN MONEY WHERE YOUR BIG FUCKING MOUTH IS imposter.

    • Elmendorf August 15, 2013 at 6:58 am #

      You’ll reach for any hypothesis to smear people under the theory that since your accusations predate their defense you “win” by being first. You’re a heinous do-nothing, like the useless couple that watches the chaos of the Black Plague in Europe and just spit at cats over their railing in Camus “The Plague”.

      Indolent mandarins like you have to get your cash from somewhere so let’s see what imaginative fiction you have for us about cash that you’ve obtained to support your do-nothing lifestyle that has absolutely no connection, however tangentially, with investments, corporations, or sponsors.

      A secretary who actually works for Halliburton to support her kids is less guilty of sucking off of ANY system than you are. You see, where does PUBLIC ASSISTANCE come from. I’ll tell you where … TAXES. And where do taxes come from … profits and incomes. And who makes profits and incomes … people and companies.

      So no matter how hard you try to make yourself seem innocent of all connection to evil, it’s a monstrous lie because you cannot sit here all day and type without sucking off of SOME teat that’s connected to corporate profits or some benefactor who is providing you with money from corporate profits.

      You, being Asoka, have always been THE biggest monster on the site and you steadily remain so.

      E.

  139. Carol Newquist August 15, 2013 at 7:13 am #

    I’ve reached out to “anonymous” through this link and explained to them that gangstalking and cyberbullying is prevalent at this site. Thankfully, I’m not suicidal and I’m not the things the cyberbullies here have said about me, but if I were more vulnerable, these cyberbullies here could have induced such a person to commit suicide. And for that, you all need to be held to account, and you will be.

    http://www.heavy.com/social/2013/08/rip-hannah-smith-bullied-suicide-ask-fm-twitter/

    Anonymous 8 days ago

    An expedition is currently underway to respond to this incident. We are in the process of gleaning information pertaining to the responsibly party and hold them accountable for their actions. If you have any information that you would like to come forward with, feel free to contact me at schema@live.com Cyber Bullying will not be tolerated in our community. It is up to all of us as a community to put an end to this behavior and admonish those who are responsible. Expect us.

    The things said here against blacks, gays and women are disgusting and atrocious, and those who have perpetrated it need to be exposed and held to account……and will be.

    • Neon Vincent August 15, 2013 at 9:24 am #

      You reached out to Anonymous for help? That’s very risky. If you’re expecting the activists involved in the protests against Scientology, the Arab Spring, and Occupy Wall Street, you might be bitterly disappointed. Worse, Anonymous are expert trolls. I’ll let Dr. Fameball explain.

      “Anonymous began life as boys behaving badly, it had a stormy romance with activism from Project Chanology in 2008 through Occupy Wall Street in 2011, but the original culture and the newly arrived activists parted ways in 2012. The digital crab bucket effect, where anyone attempting to brandfag or who’s name had come out was promptly pulled down by the others is back in effect. They won’t reclaim the name itself due to the law enforcement attention it has earned, but this is a perfect example of the old culture reasserting itself.”

      http://fameball.wordpress.com/2013/08/14/seriousmodes-common-nodes/

      The “old culture” of griefers had a saying, “The Internet is not your private army.” It still isn’t.

  140. janet August 15, 2013 at 7:22 am #

    with your invested retirement funds……

    ————–

    So you are wealthy enough to have invested funds? Some of us have no pension funds or investments of any kind. We are living from paycheck to paycheck,,, making do without and struggling to keep our heads above water. I am not complaining… I am thankful for what little I have. (And for what I do not have: a mortgage or consumer debt).

    My money goes to food and therefore goes into my mouth, as you screamed in all caps. Same goes with my community and millions of others living day to day who have no invested funds.

  141. Carol Newquist August 15, 2013 at 7:25 am #

    To whom is your post directed, janet?

  142. janet August 15, 2013 at 7:27 am #

    Carol, it sounds like you live in the Valley of bling. And that’s fie. We all have our problems. I could care less about the stock market … But I choose not to care less … as I am happy with my level of not caring less about money.

  143. Carol Newquist August 15, 2013 at 7:35 am #

    Oh, I get it, “janet” is “Elmendorf” in that “janet” answered me for “Elmendorf”.

    First off, my comment was directed at you, “Elmendorf”. No, I don’t have funds invested in the stock market and precious metals. Whether I have funds or not is none of your business, but some here have made it a point to tell us about their business up to and including the specific stocks they’ve invested in. The point being, if they don’t like the schlock that’s being served with their invested funds, then invest those funds in people and not corporations out for a quick buck no matter how said corporations come about that quick buck.

    Anyhow, “janet’s” response is an example of gangstalking once again. I don’t take bullying lightly. If people stood up for poor Hannah Smith, she’d be alive today. I’m not going to let that happen on my watch. We’re going to find out who you are and expose you and hold you to account. You are not beyond recrimination.

  144. janet August 15, 2013 at 7:36 am #

    You, being Asoka, have always been THE biggest monster on the site and you steadily remain so

    ————

    How do you know Carol is Asoka? Frequency of posting? That is weak, not strong evidence. Of course most of you could care less about evidence. You must be content with your current level of caring.

  145. janet August 15, 2013 at 7:43 am #

    We’re going to find out who you are and expose you and hold you to account. You are not beyond recrimination.

    ————–

    Carol, I am confused. Is your ^threat (promise?) directed at me? Is E. really Asoka? Please clarify. Thank you in advance.

  146. Carol Newquist August 15, 2013 at 7:52 am #

    My comment is directed at anyone who engages in gangstalking and cyberbullying behavior to include ridiculing minorities. Right now, whoever is posting as “janet” is exhibiting that behavior. A name is just a name, but a particular post can be tracked to a specific person with an unique id…..unless, of course, they’re hackers, which isn’t beyond the realm of possibilities. Still, even if you are hackers, like those scum who run the Ask site that suicided Hannah Smith, you’re not beyond recrimination. The authorities need to look at the owners of that Ask site…..I’m betting they were the trolls who drove Hannah to suicide.

    You are obviously not the same person who was posting as “janet” earlier this month. The style and intellect are not the same, hence the name in quotes. Either way, we’re going to get to the bottom of it. JHK has already been made aware of this via email. It’s time for this abuse to end.

  147. janet August 15, 2013 at 7:53 am #

    Carol said: Anyhow, “janet’s” response is an example of gangstalking once again.

    ———

    Carol, could you explain what you mean by this? Is this part of your stated intention to “crush” me?

    I so wish we could get beyond these petty personality-driven attacks.

    Besides, you are running a fool’s errand: I cannot be crushed, folded, bent, or stapled. I am woman: hear me roar.

  148. Carol Newquist August 15, 2013 at 8:00 am #

    Is this part of your stated intention to “crush” me?

    If you were paying attention, “crush” is a metaphor intended to convey that I will call attention to, and mitigate, your gangstalking and cyberbullying tactics; “crush” your tactics and their sadistic intent and effects. We’re going to find out what’s going on here and any and all involved will be held to account. You can laugh now, but you won’t be for very long.

  149. janet August 15, 2013 at 8:01 am #

    Carol said: Either way, we’re going to get to the bottom of it. JHK has already been made aware of this via email. It’s time for this abuse to end.

    ———–

    Carol, could you elaborate? Have you made an appeal for help to the male authority who runs this? Good luck depending upon a man to rescue you from the distress you feel from “gangstalking” (?)

  150. Carol Newquist August 15, 2013 at 8:07 am #

    As an example, “janet” implicitly supports and tacitly approves of the message conveyed by an obvious racist and misogynist, “rube-i-con”, who has repeatedly made cruel and disparaging comments both about women and blacks. By lending support to “rube-i-con”, the poster “janet” is creating an image of consensus and solidarity that serves to bolster the underlying despicable themes and/or messages and serves to intimidate anyone who might take umbrage with the themes/messages because said person is going against the grain and group. Whether it’s one or two people acting as many here, or it really is a bunch of separate people, the effect is still the same and the parties involved are equally as guilty in either case.

  151. janet August 15, 2013 at 8:07 am #

    We’re going to find out what’s going on here and any and all involved will be held to account. You can laugh now, but you won’t be for very long.

    ————-

    Thank you for the clarification on “crush” ….

    I am laughing. You are funny!

    Have a wonderful day … beause today is full of wonder… for those who have eyes to see.

  152. janet August 15, 2013 at 8:10 am #

    janet” implicitly supports and tacitly approves of the message conveyed by an obvious racist and misogynist, “rube-i-con”, who has repeatedly made cruel and disparaging comments both about women and blacks.

    ———-

    Girlfriend, pay attention. You mixin’ apples and oranges.

    I been talking solar energy with the nice aryan man.

  153. Carol Newquist August 15, 2013 at 8:13 am #

    Have you made an appeal for help to the male authority who runs this? Good luck depending upon a man to rescue you from the distress you feel from “gangstalking” (?)

    I don’t feel distress over this for myself, personally. I’ve developed some rather tough skin over the years via life experience. The point is, someone could and most likely already has experienced distress over the tactics employed here, and will in future without awareness. Informing JHK of this was not a plea for help. It was making him aware of the ruse that was taking place on his site. I’m not for censorship except in cases where malicious intent is at work. I believe malicious intent is at play in this comments section and we intend to get to the bottom of it. We will not allow what happened to Hannah to happen here. Making JHK aware of that is part of that process.

  154. janet August 15, 2013 at 8:25 am #

    BTW, ain’t nobody said nuthin’ to refute the Stanford EROEI findings cited by Rube, i.e., solar NET ENERGY SAVINGS including panel manufacture.

    Some folks be confused about EROEI, like some folks be confused about the difference between energy and power. Laws of physics don’t care about their confusion… Dem laws just go ’bout their business.

    Trolls: please respond to EROEI content, not to my tone or grammar or whatever else you use to distract from discussion.

  155. Carol Newquist August 15, 2013 at 8:30 am #

    Elmendorf August 15, 2013 at 6:58 am #

    What on Earth did any of what you posted have to do with your investments in cultural entertainment? You were the one complaining about something you tacitly support with your retirement funds, not me. My charge to you was to shut the hell up and put your money where your mouth was, meaning walk your hypocritical talk and quit supporting that which you bemoan and decry so incessantly. But the, along came “janet” to conveniently run interference and hence the gangstalking tactics on display. It’s becoming all too obvious what’s going on here. Your haughty arrogance and confidence of immunity tells us that you’re one of three things; stupid, hackers or intelligence services…..or, perhaps, a combination of the aforementioned or all three. Hopefully, we’ll know shortly.

  156. janet August 15, 2013 at 8:34 am #

    We will not allow what happened to Hannah to happen here. Making JHK aware of that is part of that process.

    ————

    “We will not allow?” Please stop, Carol. You have made me laugh so much today!

    You are aware that we are aware of your egotistical false posturing, right?

    Your playing with Hannah’s death this way is shameful, but not surprising.

  157. janet August 15, 2013 at 8:39 am #

    Hopefully, we’ll know shortly.

    ————

    Just around the corner? Shortly?

    Now you are mocking JHK, on his own commercial web space. Shameful!

  158. ozone August 15, 2013 at 8:43 am #

    Soooooooo,
    How’s that blanket, ubiquitous anonymity thing goin’ for you?
    Whew. Get a room, willya?

  159. janet August 15, 2013 at 8:46 am #

    Carol to E.
    What on Earth did any of what you posted have to do with …

    —————-

    Carol, it’s a wonder how much energy you expend upon Mr. Misogynist Misanthrope Racist Man. I can’t decide if you are Joan of Arc or Quixote.

    • Elmendorf August 15, 2013 at 6:53 pm #

      Yeah, it’s so clear that you guys need to marshall ever calorie of energy you have. Here’s an average days posts now on CFN:

      Janet, Janet, Carol, Janet, Carol, Carol, Carol, Carol, Q., Elmendorf,
      Janet, Carol, Carol, Janet, Carol, Bill, Carol, Janet, Janet, Janet …

      I think you and “Carol” should go live with your peeps in the ghetto and send your kids to ghetto schools, and just start hangin’ out with ’em. It’s easy to identify with your peeps when you live in Suburb-o-Cloneville but let’s hear about you WALKING THE WALK.

      E.

  160. Carol Newquist August 15, 2013 at 8:47 am #

    our playing with Hannah’s death this way is shameful, but not surprising.

    What a disgusting thing to say. No, I’m not “playing” with Hannah’s death, I’m using it as an example of what can, and does, happen when people like you decide, plan and execute a gangstalking and cyberbullying strategy. It’s real. It’s happening and Hannah is not the only victim of it. The intelligence services are notorious for this kind of online behavior, so of course, they’ll be brazen about it and act as if they’re beyond reproach because…..well, because they basically are beyond reproach.

    I’m not threatening you. What I’m stating is an admonition that people who engage in the behavior you and the other names here have engaged in will be exposed and held to account legally and in the name of justice.

  161. Carol Newquist August 15, 2013 at 8:55 am #

    How’s that blanket, ubiquitous anonymity thing goin’ for you?

    Actually, blanket anonymity would put a stop to gangstalking and cyberbullying in two ways, or in the least greatly minimize it. First, it would force people to pay attention to the message and not the purveyor of the message, resulting in a focus on content and not personality. You can’t bully and be bullied if you’re nobody. Second, some people can’t hack (haha) that, so they will be dissuaded from such activity because personality and identity means everything to them. Some of these people are the most vulnerable, so if they can be dissuaded from putting their heads on the block, then all the better.

  162. Carol Newquist August 15, 2013 at 9:26 am #

    Oh great, fracking is producing beyond expectations….yet the price of natural gas, in the U.S at least, remains relatively high. Why? Because it’s not meant for the domestic market…..it’s meant for export at your environment’s expense so the developing countries that are manufacturers to the world can manufacture all the unnecessary shit you can increasingly not afford.

    http://news.yahoo.com/marcellus-gas-production-rising-fast-pa-w-va-063319682.html

    Yahoo comments crack me up because those who make them are, quite literally, Yahoos. But, occasionally, you’ll run across a gem. Amidst the sewage of the comments for this article, I found this pearl of wisdom.

    Fracking Fluid has caused poisoned ground water flowing through new man made cracks in all directions. Up to the surface, down and sideways. Coming up in springs, creeks, streams and lakes. Gas coming into families’ homes through the faucets from their now poisoned wells. Farms without clean water for their animals. Families needing to truck in water to bath, drink and use. Flowing hazardous chemicals(fracking fluid) poisoning land throughout how many miles of ground and surface water from the Gas Well Site? Millions of acres of NEW TOXIC WASTE LAND in AMERICA approved by corrupt politicians and bribed EPA workers is being created. Lets see them drink the contaminated, poisoned water caused by injecting hazardous chemicals into the ground. Where are all the Going Green People as these millions of acres are being contaminated forever. It cannot be cleaned up. The earth and the water flowing through it in contact with these hazardous chemicals from 1 foot to 20000 feet down will be poisoned forever. The cost of cleaning earth and minerals in this amount would be more than can be imagined. Many of the birds, fish and animals that consume this water, depending on the amount of hazardous chemicals leaked into the pond or stream they drink from, will die quickly or slowly. Right now Openly in America clean land is being poisoned while the Government Regulators, Politicians and citizens watch. The current administration said, regarding the Gulf of Mexico spill, that non-enforcement of drilling rules was a problem for decades. History seems to be repeating itself in the name of greed. All while clean, long existing alternatives for energy are ignored or prevented from being used. WHY IS DESTROYING AQUIFERS and CLEAN LAND and WATER OK in AMERICA? Are they horizontally drilling under your family’s home now to take the natural gas and poison your well water/ground water? They can drill from two miles and further away to directly underneath your home to poison your family’s well water…………..PS.-Is the Fracking causing Earthquakes? Pumping billions of barrels of Toxic Fluids UNDER MASSIVE PRESSURE INTO the GROUND. Could it be figured this may be a problem for geology/earthquakes? Also, once the natural gas is sold overseas and almost all the ground water in North Carolina is poisoned, then the residents will be dependent on buying water at any price forever to stay alive. Is selling drinkable water the hidden agenda? If you live for another 30 years, you will see the wasteland NC will become. The toxic soup springing up from under our feet could happen with any step you take. The Aquifers can flow together for hundreds or thousands of miles. It would be too late then. North Carolina is not new to allowing industry to destroy former clean natural resources. The COASTAL FISHING INDUSTRY WAS KILLED after NC permitted 3800 massive open-pit hog waste lagoons contaminating the state’s drinking water, polluting its air and streams and causing open sores and deformed fish and crabs. The runoff from 19 million tons of hog waste produced annually in Eastern North Carolina from the hog factories has polluted Albemarle Sound, the largest freshwater sound in the country, and adjacent Pamlico Sound, the largest enclosed saltwater sound. Would you eat seafood with open sores and deformations? Also causing Red Tide and Pfiesteria. So, they have polluted the large sounds on the coast for decades and now they want to poison the Aquifers in North Carolina and water in nearby states that share the same ground water?

  163. progress4what August 15, 2013 at 9:27 am #

    “…when people like you decide, plan and execute a gangstalking and cyberbullying strategy…”
    …carol/asoka/janet…

    To see this strategy in action,watch how janetasokacarol will now present a united “gangstalking” front of racist, fact free vitriol against the concept of better living through reduction of population growth INSIDE the United States.
    https://www.numbersusa.com/content/

    Ban thecyberbully(ies?) janetasoka and “carol,” James Howard Kunstler.

    Do it now!
    Or shut down this comment section for the damage it does to YOUR bottom line.

    • ozone August 15, 2013 at 9:55 am #

      P4W,
      What is so very strange about ‘these’ characters is the variety of baits that they’re trolling with! It’s a wonder and an amazement to behold.
      We’re learning (not quickly, but we’re learning) what people will do for a buck. Scruples and the taboo of hypocrisy are no longer a consideration.

    • Elmendorf August 15, 2013 at 6:56 pm #

      I’ve already sent Kunstler a “put up or shut up” email. If he really believes the blog’s an embarrassment then he should make technical amendments to it that make it bearable for everyone like a limit of 5 posts per day and no random identity thefts allowed.

      He’s done bupkus so I presume that Carol and Janet are his peeps. No one can observe this blog without seeing that those two posters comprise 70-80% of a day’s volume. People like that have such vacuous lives that it’s hilarious when they try to imply that other people’s lives are such.

      E.

  164. progress4what August 15, 2013 at 9:49 am #

    At one time,there were 30+ unique human individuals who were very regular commenters here at CFN.

    Now, there areabout 3.

    Reason for the decline?

    “carol”asokajanet The overpostingTrolling Twosome give this place an intellectually barren appearance to any new readers who might accidentally wander through here.

    Your own sense of fair play and desire for free speech (or else your uncaring neglect), has has allowed CFN comment threadto be destroyed as a worthwhile force, James.

    Three solutions:
    1. Ban the Trolling Twosome
    2. Employ some sort of comment limits/moderation.
    3. Shut down the thread

    • progress4what August 15, 2013 at 9:55 am #

      And, note that 30 unique commenters were likely enoughto attract 100’s (at least) of unique page views every week.

      Ban the Two Trolls – and watch unique (financially rewarding?), comments, page views, and commercial remuneration – slowly build.

    • Elmendorf August 15, 2013 at 7:04 pm #

      If people like you, P4W, put similar messages on the blog and even cut and paste this message EVERY DAY then maybe, just maybe, Kunstler might notice. However, I wouldn’t count on it.

      Kunstler, of course, only really has ONE metric by which he bans people: They’re males who dare to post fact after fact about the ethnicities which make up the USA. He does this because of his own ethnicity and his predictably hypocritical “liberal” politics which conveniently include being a Zionist.

      That’s why, aside from my recent two-day spree of messages, I’m largely absent. Any esteem I had for Kunstler has largely tanked because of this and because he flies to all corners of the USA to deliver his message. Being a jet-setter to argue for a low carbon footprint is like fucking to support virginity.

      In other words, Kunstler is just like any other Jewish liberal in New Yack State.

      E.

  165. janet August 15, 2013 at 9:59 am #

    rube says:

    “I have cited a study showing that solar power has the ability to replace vast amounts of petroleum-based energy sources, citing a real-world example of Germany attaining 60% of its entire power needs for a few days this year.

    now, bitches, shoot me down with FACTS or fuck off to your loser doomsday lives.”

    So far, no one has refuted the Stanford findings on Net Energy Savings including the manufacture of solar panels. Arguments about energy density do not negate the net energy savings of solar energy. They just say (correctly) that you get more bang out of fossil fuel… until you don’t because the costs are increasing. Take out the petroleum industry corporate welfare government subsidies (redistribution of our wealth to Exxon) and solar is competitive on a level playing field.

    Compare the costly acrobatics of off-shore deep ocean remote sites drilling with solar: The sun is a free, ubiquitous source of energy. And silicon, which is used as the semiconductor in PV cells, is the second most abundant material in the Earth’s crust.

    Compare other factors like oil production noise pollution: Solar PV power generation does not produce noise, polluting emissions or toxic gases. This helps to combat climate change.

    Compare the longevity of oil wells/refineries (or even worse, fracking) with PV plants which offer long-term profitability, as they can generate for over 25 years.

    Compare the original sunk costs and ongoing maintenance costs. The energy required to manufacture a PV module is paid back within between 1.5 and 3 years after it comes into production. Thus, a module will generate between 6 and 18 times more energy in its useful life than it has taken to manufacture it. THAT IS EROEI BITCHES!

    Compare the long-term environmental contamination of oil spills non-sustainability of oil with PV modules that can be recycled at the end of their useful life and some of the component materials can be re-used.

    Compare the complexity of oil production and facilities maintenance with PV modules that are easy to install and require minimal maintenance. The expensive petroleum infrastructure costs are not taken in consideration in comparisons with solar. They should be.

    Compare environmental impacts (production, transportation, etc.) of a high-density fossil fuel source with Solar PV technology that enables clean electricity to be generated in remote rural areas.

    Compare versatility with some kinds of PV modules that can be integrated into buildings, sometimes even adding to their architectural appeal. The building aids in energy production, ongoing, free, for decades. Put fossil fuels into a building’s furnace and you get a short burst of heat energy (a few days) followed by a dead, cold building.

    The PV industry is generating ever more jobs and wealth.
    Solar PV energy is helping to guarantee the security of humankind’s electricity supply.

    To continue to rely on fossil fuels is folly. LEAVE THE OIL IN THE GROUND.

  166. progress4what August 15, 2013 at 10:02 am #

    OK – I’m through for a while.
    I will check back later for an attack from the Two Trolls.
    Will it be based on:

    Racism?
    Sexism?
    ERoEI?

    Or will “they” simply ignore the incontrovertible truth?

    ‘Till next time.

    Progerss4what? Answer: Not much.

  167. ozone August 15, 2013 at 10:13 am #

    Awww, ‘Ja’soka’ learned a new word and is trying it out today!
    That’s so cute.
    Let’s hear about that. The pretended indignation will be noted (and laughed at, as is due).

  168. janet August 15, 2013 at 10:17 am #

    To P4S and Ozone:

    Your comments are spam. They add nothing to the blog. Some of us are trying to have an adult conversation about a free, ubiquitous source of energy which doesn’t fuck up the environment. Fossil fuels do not qualify as a clean source of energy. Let’s talk about how to live on less energy and make sure that energy source is sustainable and zero emission. Fossil fuels do not qualify under those criteria.

    LEAVE THE OIL IN THE GROUND.

    • ozone August 15, 2013 at 10:21 am #

      You sniffed indignantly?
      Color me castigated!

      Hey! There’s that word again; keep practicing and someday it will sound a little less forced.

  169. janet August 15, 2013 at 10:23 am #

    LEAVE THE OIL IN THE GROUND.

    THOSE WHO CONSUME THE MOST SHOULD PAY THE MOST.

    From the Amazon region of Ecuador:

    “It is a trick of perspective. As you get closer you see that the blaze comes from a 15-metre (50ft) metal tower in the middle of a clearing and that it shoots the flames skyward in controlled bursts. It is a technique to burn waste gas, one of countless flares dotted across the forests of eastern Ecuador, and it is a stark display of the extraction of oil from the lush heart of South America.

    Oil has been pumped from here for almost four decades and the result, say environmentalists, is 1,700 square miles of industrial contamination, with rivers poisoned, wildlife wiped out and humans falling sick.

    But now, mindful of the environmental and political cost, the state has made a startling proposal: if wealthy nations pay Ecuador $350m (£174m) a year – half of the estimated revenue – it will leave the oil in the ground.

    Supporters say it is an idea whose time has come, a logical step forward from carbon offsetting in which rich polluters in developed countries compensate for environmental damage caused by their consumer habits.

    Since it was first floated in June there have been promising signals, said Alberto Acosta, a former mining minister and close ally of President Rafael Correa. The German and Norwegian governments have expressed interest, as have parliamentarians from Italy, Spain and the European Union. “This could be a historic accommodation,” he said. Donors could pay in cash, debt relief or other indirect ways.

    Some greens champion the proposal as a way to protect biodiversity and combat global warming while allowing a poor country to develop. “It’s not utopian, it’s realistic,” said Esperanza Martínez, of the Quito-based Acción Ecológica.”

    LEAVE THE OIL IN THE GROUND.

  170. janet August 15, 2013 at 10:26 am #

    Dipshit ozone. You are contaminating this site with your spam.

    Do you have anything to contribute to our CFN conversation about free, ubiquitous zero-emission sources of energy?

    LEAVE THE OIL IN THE GROUND.

  171. janet August 15, 2013 at 10:27 am #

    correction

    Ozone, do you have anything to contribute to our CFN conversation about free, ubiquitous zero-emission and sustainable sources of energy?

  172. ozone August 15, 2013 at 10:30 am #

    Is the Cherry Hill Mall the only going concern in Cherry Hill now?
    A postcard form the home of the first drive-in theater:

    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article35855.htm

    Nobody’s putting solar panels on the houses in a dying town. “Drop off the key, Lee…”

    Too Late, Too Late, Too Late! Tweaking will no longer suffice.

    Who do you think is running this country anyway? Wake up and smell the extractive greed! There is no gaggle of altruistic techno-geeks to ride to the rescue here.

    • beantownbill. August 15, 2013 at 10:52 am #

      At least you’re calling me altruistic. That’s not so Obadiah.

      • beantownbill. August 15, 2013 at 10:55 am #

        Automatic fill-in can be very funny. Should read, that’s not so bad. How the hell did it come up with Obadiah?

        • ozone August 16, 2013 at 7:19 am #

          BTB,
          Looked up Obadiah; it means “servant of God” (roughly).
          That ain’t so Obadiah, is it? 😉

  173. rube-i-con August 15, 2013 at 10:41 am #

    So far, no one has refuted the Stanford findings on Net Energy Savings including the manufacture of solar panels.

    thank you janet, asoka da man, you my brother brutha, even tho’ i make a disparaging remark about women or skin color, it’s just me gettin’ made down here cuz of all the idiots that refuse to admit the obvious because it ruins their dungeons and dragons mindset.

    we rock bro! south america/central american refugees, you have to come on down to my place in brazil, we’ll have some nice cool beer and beef, or go vegan if that’s what you’re into. and we’ll warm ourselves in the free sun (that’s SOLAR ENERGY for you cfn boneheads that will never understand).

    brotherhood goes beyond any fucking skin color.

    peace peaceniks

  174. K-Dog August 15, 2013 at 10:42 am #

    As one who experienced it this spring my desire to get the definition right is very strong. To have the perpetrators of my stalking butcher the term pisses me off.

    Before then I did not know what it was. Originally it was developed in Britain to deal with some veterans of the Falklands war who were giving the government there some issues. In my mind it’s current use highlights the connection between British and American intelligence efforts which in many ways are joined at the hip.

    Gang Stalking.

    Gang Stalking is a systemic form of control, which seeks to control every aspect of a Targeted Individuals life. Gang Stalking has many similarities to workplace mobbing, but takes place outside in the community. It called Gang Stalking, because the target is followed around and placed under intrusive and directed surveillance by groups of organised “Covert Human Intelligence Sources” also known as Citizen Informants 24/7. Using anti-terror laws to spy on ordinary people.

    Many Targeted Individuals are harassed and placed under surveillance in this way for months or even years before they realise that they are being targeted by an organised protocol of harassment.

    What happens during this Gang Stalking surveillance is very similar to what happened to many innocent individuals in the former East Germany or Activists and Dissidents in Russia. Many innocent people in the former East Germany would be targeted for these harassment programs, and then their friends, family, and the community at large would be used to monitor, prosecute, and harass them. In Russia it was used by the state to declare activist, dissidents or anyone they thought to be an enemy of the state as mentally unfit and many were institutionalised using this form of systemic control.

    The closest thing to Gang Stalking that democratic countries have seen before this is McCarthyism, Cointelpro, and RED SQUAD programs. Red Squad programs were used for monitoring, and harassment of various groups. They have been in place for over a hundred years, and they also employed Covert Human Intelligence Sources.

    Civilian Spies, also known as “Covert Human Intelligence Sources” are recruited from every level and sector of society. Just like with Cointelpro investigations, everyone in the targets life is made a part of this ongoing never ending, systemic psychological harassment and manipulation of the target. These actions are specifically designed to control the target and to keep them in line. These actions are also designed to destroy the target over years, make them look crazy and leave them with no form of support.

    For the targets of this harassment, Gang Stalking is experienced as a covert psychological, emotional and physical attack, that is capable of immobilizing and destroying a target over time. For the state it’s a way to keep the targets in line, control them, or destroy them.

    Worldwide programs of control and conformity have been used with equal success and lethality. What we are seeing now is a global co-ordinated and organised effort of control and conformity. Many countries around the world are currently using a model of policing called: Community Oriented Policing. It’s described as a systemic approach to policing. It focuses on instilling a sense of community within a geographically located neighborhood. Communities come together and discuss what values they would like to have in their community, community development, and it’s also a time to discuss any problems that might be happening in a specific area. If a problem is identified an investigation might be opened. These local programs in many countries have been forming partnerships with other government run programs at, provincial, state and federal levels. Reports of Gang Stalking are not only coming in from democratic countries, but they are coming in from many other countries as well.

    The modern day systemic form of control could only be funded at higher governmental levels, just like it has in other societies where these similar types of harassment programs have been implemented. It’s all part of a system of control and conformity that has been in place for many years. A system of control with many local groups and appendages taking part.

    What are the goals of Gang Stalking?

    The goal is to isolate the target from all forms of support, so that the target can be set up in the future for arrest, institutionalisation, or forced suicide. Other goals of this harassment is to destroy the targets reputation and credibility. Make the target look crazy or unstable.

    Other goals involve sensitizing the target to every day stimuli’s as a form of control, which is used to control targets when they get out of line. Once the target is sensitized, the Citizen Informants have an easier time identifying the Targeted Individual in public.

    These programs are designed to make the targets of this harassment vulnerable, they want to make them destitute. The secondary goals seems to be to make the target homeless, jobless, give them a breakdown, and the primary goals seems to be to drive the target to forced suicide, just like what they did with some of the targets of Cointelpro. It’s a useful way of eliminating perceived enemies of the state.

    Who gets targeted?

    Targeting can happen to anyone in society. In the past primary targets of programs such as Cointelpro have been minorities. Targeting however can happen to anyone. Individuals are often targeted for being outspoken, whistle blowers, dissidents, people who go up against wealthy corporations, woman’s groups, (single) women, anti-war proponents, individuals identified or targeted as problems at these community meetings, and other innocent individuals. The majority of the targets are often not aware that they are being targeted in this way. When a target moves, changes jobs, the harassment still continues. Every time the target moves, the same information, lies, and slander will be spread out into the new community and the systemic monitoring and harassment will continue. Traits of those targeted

    Who takes part?

    People from all walks of life are being recruited to be the eyes and ears of the state. People from all races, ages, genders. Every sector of society that you can think of is a part of this. Civilian Spies/Snitches include, but are not limited to: General labourers, the wealthy, bikers, drug dealers, drug users, street people, punks, hip hop culture, KKK, black activists, church groups, youth groups, Fire Fighters, police officers, lawyers, health care workers, store keepers, maids, janitors, cable installers, phone repair persons, mail carriers, locksmiths, electricians, etc. There really is no minimum or maximum age range. An article came out recently in the Uk, saying they were recruiting children as young as eight years old to be Covert Human Intelligence Sources.

    Some of these citizens might be recruited via programs such as, Citizen Corp, Weed and Seed, Citizens On Phone Patrol, (COPP), City Watch, T.I.P.S. Many started with good intentions to help patrol and monitor their cities and neighbourhoods. Others are recruited via their families, others at school, others at work. Since every sector, class, race in society takes part, recruitment is multi-faceted.

    Many do not understand or care that the end consequence of this harassment protocol is to destroy a person.

    Why people participate in Gang Stalking?

    There are many reasons that someone takes part in this activity.

    1. Some do it for the sense of power that it gives them.

    2. Others do this as a way to make friends and keep friends. It’s something social and fun for them to do. Many in society use the one handed sign language to communicate and it’s very effective in breaking down race, gender, age, social barriers.

    3. Others are forced or black mailed by the State or the police into taking part.

    4. They are told that they are part of homeland or national security and being used to help keep and eye on dangerous or emotionally disturbed individuals. They see themselves as heroic spies for the state.

    Civilian spies can come from a variety of different programs such as the Citizen Corp, Citizen On Phone Patrol COPP, Weed and Seed, T.I.P.S., City Watch or some other centralized government program used for patrolling and monitoring cities.

    5. Others are just local thugs or Informants who are already being used for other activities, and their energies are just diverted over into these community spy programs. Eg. Some may be given the choice of Spying for the State or the police vs going to jail.

    6. Others are told outright lies and slander about the target to get them to go along with ruining the targets life.

    7. Many are however just average citizens who have been recruited by the state the same way citizens were recruited in the former East Germany and other countries. It’s the way the society is.

    What are some techniques used against targets?

    A few of the most common techniques are listed below.

    a) Classical conditioning.

    Getting a Targeted Individual sensitized to an everyday stimuli. The targeted individual over a period of months, or even years is negatively sensitised to an everyday stimuli, which is then used to harass them. It’s used out in public to let them know they are constantly being harassed and monitored. Some examples of everyday stimulus that might be used include: sounds, colors, patterns, actions. Eg. Red, white, yellow, strips, pens clicking, key jangling, loud coughing, loud whistling, loud smacking of clapping of hands together, cell phones, laptops, etc.

    b) 24/7 Surveillance This will involve following the target everywhere they go. Learning about the target. Where they shop, work, play, who their friends and family are. Getting close to the target, moving into the community or apartment where they live, across the street. Monitoring the targets phone, house, and computer activity. Surveillance Policy.

    c) Isolation of said target.

    This is done via slander campaigns, and lies. Eg. People in the targets community are told that the target is a thief, into drugs, a prostitute, pedophile, crazy, in trouble for something, needs to be watched. Files will even be produced on the target, shown to neighbours, family, store keepers.

    d) Noise and mimicking campaigns.

    Disrupting the targets life, sleep with loud power tools, construction, stereos, doors slamming, etc. Talking in public about private things in the targets life. Mimicking actions of the target. Basically letting the target know that they are in the targets life. Daily interferences, nothing that would be too overt to the untrained eye, but psychologically degrading and damaging to the target over time.

    e) Everyday life breaks and street theatre.

    Flat tires, sleep deprivation, drugging food, putting dirt on targets property. Mass strangers doing things in public to annoy targets. These strangers might get text messaged to be at a specific time and place, and perform a specific action.

    It might seem harmless to these Citizen Informants, but it could be causing great psychological trauma for the target. Eg. Blocking targets path, getting ahead of them in line, cutting or boxing them in on the road, saying or doing things to elicit a response from targets. Etc. It’s like the death of a thousand paper cuts. One or two minor incidents will not cause any harm to the target, but over time the target is slowly worn down.

    Where does the support or funding for this come from?

    Though Gang Stalking itself is immoral and unethical in nature, programs such as this in democratic countries, and none democratic countries have always been funded by the Government. They are the only ones with enough money, coordination, and power to keep such a system in place. These Co-ordinated efforts then join hands with others for this systemic form of control and harassment.

    “Ruling the community with an iron fist. “Savvy law enforcement types realized that under the community policing rubric, cops, community groups, local companies, private foundations, citizen informants and federal agencies could form alliances without causing public outcry.” Covert Action Quarterly, summer 1997.”

    Ruling the community

    What can you do to help?

    1. If you know someone who is being targeted in this way please don’t go along with it. Don’t assume that the person is guilty or a bad person. Many innocent people are currently being targeted, and people are being told lies. This form of harassment is systemic and it’s about state control and conformity. The express goal of this harassment is to destroy the individual over time.

    2. If you are aware of someone being harassed in this way, subtly direct them to websites that deal with Gang Stalking, or sites for Targeted Individuals. Knowledge is power.

    3. You can subtly offer your support to someone who is being unfairly treated, in very small little ways.

    4. You can bring up the subject of Gang Stalking or Targeted Individuals.

    6. You can subtly suggest that your local newspapers or community papers print articles about Targeted Individuals or even an write an objective piece about Gang Stalking.

    How do participants communicate?

    Communicate happens in a number of ways. When on the street or in cars patrolling, they use baseball or Stasi like signals. Citizen Informants also seem to get verbal ques via cellphone and earphones.

    These include things like tapping the side of the nose, corner of the eye, brushing back the hair 3 times, the infamous double blink, etc.

    Here is a list of signals that the former East German Secret Police the Stasi used. http://www.nthposition.com/stasiland.php

    SIGNALS FOR OBSERVATION

    1. Watch out! Subject is coming – touch nose with hand or handkerchief

    2. Subject is moving on, going further, or overtaking – stroke hair with hand, or raise hat briefly

    3. Subject standing still – lay one hand against back, or on stomach

    4. Observing Agent wishes to terminate observation because cover threatened – bend and retie shoelaces

    5. Subject returning – both hands against back, or on stomach

    6. Observing Agent wishes to speak with Team Leader or other Observing Agents – take out briefcase or equivalent and examine contents.

    Books:

    1. Protectors of Privilege: Red Squads
    2. Anna Funder “Stasiland”
    3. Victor Santoro “GASLIGHTING How To Drive Your Enemies Crazy “
    4. Alex Constantine “The Covert War Against Rock”
    5. Jim Redden “Snitch Culture”
    6. Frank Donner “The Age of surveillance”
    7. Kristina Borjesson “Into the Buzzsaw”
    8. Niki F. Raapana “2020”
    9. Community Oriented Policing. A Systemic approch.
    10. Naomi Wolf. “The End of America.”

    K-Dog

    And yes there is new dog at my site.

    • Janos Skorenzy August 15, 2013 at 1:05 pm #

      Glad you are starting to realize the horrors of Leftism. Welcome – we’ve known for generations. Sure, so called “Conservatives” could use these tactics too, but real Conservatives are for limits in Government so it doesn’t have the power to do such things.

  175. janet August 15, 2013 at 10:47 am #

    Ozone cries: “Too late! Too late!” in the face of evidence to the contrary.

    What if Germany took Ozone’s position? Germany would not have decided to abandon nuclear energy.

    What if Germany had said: “But we account for one-fifth of the
    European Union’s gross domestic product! We can’t go solar!”

    What if Germany had said: Our industrial structure won’t allow solar, we are a major producer and exporter of machinery, automobiles, and
    chemicals. Stability in our electricity supply is critical. We can’t go solar!”

    But Germany did not take Ozone’s pessimistic position. Germany embarked on the most ambitious greenhouse gas emission-reduction program: a 40 percent reduction in carbon dioxide emissions from 1990 levels by 2020 and an 80 percent minimum reduction by 2050. Nuclear energy accounted for about 23 percent of electricity production at the time of Fukushima. The decision to phase out nuclear energy, therefore, means not only replacing an important source of electricity, but also doing so in a way that does not lead to increased greenhouse gas emissions.

    But Germany did not throw up its hands and say “Too late! Too late!”

    Germany is part of the solution, not part of the problem. Unlike Ozone.

    • rube-i-con August 15, 2013 at 11:08 am #

      nice to see folks talking about the real issue finaly. i think we have struck a nearly fatal blow to kunstler on energy descent

      peace peaceniks

  176. janet August 15, 2013 at 11:05 am #

    Germany’s efforts (to take advantage of clean, ubiquitous, and sustainable energy) aim to save money on energy bills, make communities more attractive to live in, and support entrepreneurial thinkers. Such communities can be found across Germany; their supporters come from all political parties.

    But it won’t all be done by the private sector. Government involvement is key. In Bayern, a stronghold of the Christian Socialist Union, a regional sister party to the conservative Christian Democratic Union, many farmers and investors have profited from feed-in tariff support for solar photovoltaics. Many of Germany’s famous small- and medium-sized enterprises have been beneficiaries of the GOVERNMENT’S push toward a more sustainable energy structure.

    It is win-win, not utopian. It is happening now.

    Solar can bring people together to solve problems.

  177. Carol Newquist August 15, 2013 at 11:15 am #

    LEAVE THE OIL IN THE GROUND

    Yes. This I agree with and support. I would like for someone to explain to me how curtailing immigration to the U.S. prevents fracking, since we now know the fracked gas is for export and not domestic consumption? The fact of the matter is, if you leave the hydrocarbons in the ground, immigration takes care of itself but that’s not the message the corporations and their shills want spread. The corporations pretend to oppose immigration, but in reality, they welcome it as it was because it allowed them to drive down wages and factionalize the populace. If you get the Little People to point fingers at each other, rather than at corporate personhood, you can continue the scamming of wealth indefinitely.

  178. rube-i-con August 15, 2013 at 11:25 am #

    But Germany did not throw up its hands and say “Too late! Too late!” Germany is part of the solution, not part of the problem. Unlike Ozone.

    you see, this is how all these doomsday pussies operate, they never (or rarely) refute on the basis of science – hell, even kunstler at least tries, i give him that.

    it’s always, ‘ok, maybe they have massive solar power being generated, but…it’s too late.’

    then, they’ll typically make cynical, degrading remarks like ‘good luck to them with that!’ without confronting a scientific fact.

    ok, oil reserves are declining. check. solar capability and power generation is rising, and is in net plus territory for the first time in history! so say scientists at stanford. ergo, we now have access to an unlimited ‘oil field’ called the sun.

    and along with smart metering and other intelligent energy-reduction technologies (oh man, there’s that horrible too-much-magic technology that kunstler hates), consumers are reducing as much as 80% of energy consumption. (yes, i will cite the link if you’d like)

    bite it, doomsday pussies. the positivists among us, we true modern progressives, know that solving the energy crisis is under way and is, and will continue being, a massive success.

    fuck, KUNSTLER, where are you on this one?

    peace peaceniks

  179. janet August 15, 2013 at 11:26 am #

    Anybody have an answer to Rube-i-con’s challenge? Anybody want to compare fossil fuel to solar to see which is safe and sustainable?

    Be sure to use multiple calculations in your comparison: Energy Payback Time (EPBT), Greenhouse Gas per kilowatt hour (GHG/kWh), Energy Return on Investment (EROI), Greenhouse Gas Payback Time (GPBT) and Greenhouse Gas Return on Investment (GROI).

    These are the kinds of metrics that make it possible to define the energy and environmental performances of solar and fossil fuels.

    Anybody think fossil fuels win in these calculations?

    Nobody has provided Rube-i-con with an answer that is based on hard science/mathematics. Rube-i-con’s question/challenge is central to the topic of CFN, yet nobody has anything relevant to say. All we get is spam from K-Dog, Ozone, and P4W.

    Saying solar cannot replace fossil fuels (setting aside countries that are proving that wrong) is not an argument against solar: it is an argument against wasteful consumption.

    The more relevant question is: what percentage can solar replace? How can we change our lifestyle to live within the contraints of ubiquitous, free, clean, and sustainable energy sources?

    Why does no one want to discuss this? Why all the troll talk, why all the paid agents talk? That amounts to nothing but spam. Stay on the central topic of CFN: energy production/consumption/lifestyle.

    PS.
    Crossing a national border line does not increase or reduce global population. Immigration is an irrelevant topic. Voluntary and human methods of global population reduction are relevant themes.

  180. progress4what August 15, 2013 at 11:27 am #

    “we have struck a nearly fatal blow to kunstler on energy descent”
    – rube-i-asokaa –

    Welles never talked like this.
    And he never attacked JAMES HOWARD KUNSTLER personally like this.

    We have another member of the Soaker Sock Suckers, here.
    aka – the Trolling Trilogy/Twosome

    Can the Querulous Quadrad be far behind?

    • rube-i-con August 15, 2013 at 11:57 am #

      Welles never talked like this.
      And he never attacked JAMES HOWARD KUNSTLER personally like this.

      it is I, welles indeed. how do you want me to talk? and i attack JHK because the mofo spouts this incessant energy descent shtick yet disappears when we mount a major challenge to him.

      i know jimbo monitors this board a bit, i’ve seen him threatening to ban someone for racism…so jimmy, where are you now that you’re under major siege?

      once again, p4what, you just mock and try to belittle, but have nothing substantive to say beyond an 8th-grade attempt at put-down humor.

      peace peaceniks

  181. anti dod August 15, 2013 at 11:28 am #

    Ban ‘the entity’.

    • Janos Skorenzy August 15, 2013 at 1:08 pm #

      No, the entity IS the system for all intents and purposes. To ban it and those like it would mean shutting down the internet. Or do you think it is limited to one IP address?

  182. janet August 15, 2013 at 11:33 am #

    correction

    Voluntary and human methods of global population reduction are relevant themes.

    In other words, I am ruling out the favorite themes of doomers: collapse, famine, war, etc. preferred methods of population reduction.

    Although those doomer themes have the advantage that you don’t have to actually DO anything. You don’t have to work on solutions.

    You just say “Too late!” Then…. You just sit back and enjoy suffering of humanity while saying “I told you so!”.

    Sick bastards.

  183. Carol Newquist August 15, 2013 at 11:38 am #

    we now have access to an unlimited ‘oil field’ called the sun.

    This is not a scientific fact. In fact, I’ve shown scientific evidence to the contrary……and no, I’m not talking about the sun going Red Giant. Here’s the link AGAIN:

    http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2011/07/galactic-scale-energy/

    I have always been impressed by the fact that as much solar energy reaches Earth in one hour as we consume in a year. What hope such a statement brings! But let’s not get carried away—yet.

    Only 70% of the incident sunlight enters the Earth’s energy budget—the rest immediately bounces off of clouds and atmosphere and land without being absorbed. Also, being land creatures, we might consider confining our solar panels to land, occupying 28% of the total globe. Finally, we note that solar photovoltaics and solar thermal plants tend to operate around 15% efficiency. Let’s assume 20% for this calculation. The net effect is about 7,000 TW, about 600 times our current use. Lots of headroom, yes?

    When would we run into this limit at a 2.3% growth rate? Recall that we expand by a factor of ten every hundred years, so in 200 years, we operate at 100 times the current level, and we reach 7,000 TW in 275 years. 275 years may seem long on a single human timescale, but it really is not that long for a civilization. And think about the world we have just created: every square meter of land is covered in photovoltaic panels! Where do we grow food?

    Now let’s start relaxing constraints. Surely in 275 years we will be smart enough to exceed 20% efficiency for such an important global resource. Let’s laugh in the face of thermodynamic limits and talk of 100% efficiency (yes, we have started the fantasy portion of this journey). This buys us a factor of five, or 70 years. But who needs the oceans? Let’s plaster them with 100% efficient solar panels as well. Another 55 years. In 400 years, we hit the solar wall at the Earth’s surface. This is significant, because biomass, wind, and hydroelectric generation derive from the sun’s radiation, and fossil fuels represent the Earth’s battery charged by solar energy over millions of years. Only nuclear, geothermal, and tidal processes do not come from sunlight—the latter two of which are inconsequential for this analysis, at a few terawatts apiece.

    But the chief limitation in the preceding analysis is Earth’s surface area—pleasant as it is. We only gain 16 years by collecting the extra 30% of energy immediately bouncing away, so the great expense of placing an Earth-encircling photovoltaic array in space is surely not worth the effort. But why confine ourselves to the Earth, once in space? Let’s think big: surround the sun with solar panels. And while we’re at it, let’s again make them 100% efficient. Never-mind the fact that a 4 mm-thick structure surrounding the sun at the distance of Earth’s orbit would require one Earth’s worth of materials—and specialized materials at that. Doing so allows us to continue 2.3% annual energy growth for 1350 years from the present time.

    At this point you may realize that our sun is not the only star in the galaxy. The Milky Way galaxy hosts about 100 billion stars. Lots of energy just spewing into space, there for the taking. Recall that each factor of ten takes us 100 years down the road. One-hundred billion is eleven factors of ten, so 1100 additional years. Thus in about 2500 years from now, we would be using a large galaxy’s worth of energy. We know in some detail what humans were doing 2500 years ago. I think I can safely say that I know what we won’t be doing 2500 years hence.

    FYI, this is not provided to discourage the push to solar, but rather to underscore that growth can no longer be tolerated or supported. A contraction of energy demand is necessary, and yes, that ever-dwindling demand would better be satisfied by leaving the non-sustainable (includes uranium) energy inputs in the ground.

  184. Carol Newquist August 15, 2013 at 11:46 am #

    Voluntary and human methods of global population reduction are relevant themes.

    In other words, I am ruling out the favorite themes of doomers: collapse, famine, war, etc. preferred methods of population reduction.

    Although those doomer themes have the advantage that you don’t have to actually DO anything. You don’t have to work on solutions.

    I agree with this message. See how easy this is? Focus on the message, not the purveyor.

    Faux corporate immigration reform is not the answer to any of these issues. The issues embodied by this discussion are at the root of it. It could be taken one step further and we could identify what mechanism, if there is just one, got us to this point. An idea was offered the other day that it was attachment. I believe that’s it. Can humanity, collectively and collaboratively, overcome its conditioned attachment disorder and contract as humanely and peacefully as possible? That’s the question. That should be the goal, not “it’s all going to shit and I hope you all burn in hell for it you motherfuckers!”

  185. rube-i-con August 15, 2013 at 12:04 pm #

    Recall that we expand by a factor of ten every hundred years, so in 200 years, we operate at 100 times the current level, and we reach 7,000 TW in 275 years. 275 years may seem long on a single human timescale, but it really is not that long for a civilization. And think about the world we have just created: every square meter of land is covered in photovoltaic panels! Where do we grow food?

    um, we have satellites in space for like 50 years now, collecting solar energy on their wings. you think we’re not going to position huge collecting platforms out where solar is 100% available, and doesn’t occupy ground space, IF NEEDED?

    plus, where is massive reduction of energy requirements factored into this doomsday screed, e.g. LEDs use 98% less energy than incandescents, etc.? using smart metering is drastically reducing energy consumption already. combine with solar and you have the makings of easily solving the energy ‘crisis’ over a few short decades.

    you fail in that you use static assumptions, while progress is exponential. just like RAM-based computers are slated to be dinosaurs due to quantum computing.

    peace peaceniks

  186. Carol Newquist August 15, 2013 at 12:15 pm #

    you fail in that you use static assumptions, while progress is exponential. just like RAM-based computers are slated to be dinosaurs due to quantum computing.

    For starters, there is no “you” in this equation. There are impersonal facts presented, so leave the personalization of those facts out of it.

    They’re not static assumptions. 100% efficiency is granted (assumed), when currently photovoltaic is less than 20% efficiency. All manner of other liberal assumptions and allowances are made in the analysis. Even with those liberal allowances and assumptions, at historically experienced energy consumption growth rates, the sun is used up in 400 years, and to even get to that point is a ludicrous technological stretch beyond the pale of reason.

  187. janet August 15, 2013 at 12:18 pm #

    “The net effect is about 7,000 TW, about 600 times our current use. Lots of headroom, yes? When would we run into this limit at a 2.3% growth rate? Recall that we expand by a factor of ten every hundred years, so in 200 years, we operate at 100 times the current level, and we reach 7,000 TW in 275 years.”

    Neat bit of sophistry, this: “Recall that we expand by a factor of ten every hundred years.”

    Say what? Past is prologue? No.

    Not according to demographers. World population will level off this century… nonviolently. Wolfgang Lutz, director of the Vienna-based International Institute for Applied System Analysis (IIASA) and one of the world’s most prominent demographers: “it is “highly probable that mankind will begin to shrink by 2060 or 2070.” It will be a global turning point. For the first time since the Black Death raged in the 14th century, the world’s death rate will be higher than its birth rate.

    So the article Carol is citing is not realistic in its exponential growth extrapolation. It also assumes increasing energy consumption when the evidence is in favor of decreasing consumption through a combination of demand destruction and increased conservation/efficiency measures. These are happening now. The oil sheiks are freaked out about improvements in the efficiency of the internal-combustion engine.

    “Analysts at Citi, calculate that if the fuel-efficiency of cars and trucks improves by an average of 2.5pc a year, it will be enough to constrain oil demand; they predict that a peak of less than 92m b/d will come in the next few years.

    Ricardo, a big automotive engineer, has come to a similar conclusion. And then the sort of environmental policies that are reducing the thirst for fuel in Europe and America by imposing ever-tougher fuel-efficiency standards on vehicles are also being adopted in the emerging economies too.

    China recently introduced its own set of fuel-economy measures. Oil demand is increasingly under pressure.”

    So, Carol, you can’t just take numbers and run them mathematically as constants because, well, because we are human beings and as such we are rational…. and unpredictable. We can rationally decide to change what we have always done. That is what makes the study you cite false. Decreasing population, decreasing demand for energy, efficiencies and new technologies: those are the realities you ignore.

  188. rube-i-con August 15, 2013 at 12:22 pm #

    why not assume 50-80% reduction in energy consumption requirements, if youre going to put in 100% conversion efficiency. 50-80% reduction in energy consumption is not even an ASSUMPTION, it is an increasing reality with intelligent metering and new materials.

    combine a drastic reduction in energy consumption with 20% solar efficiency and you have made enormous strides in guaranteeing we can meet our energy requirements.

    plus, if, be definition, and as stated in the Stanford study, all the world’s solar panels are NET ENERGY PRODUCERS

  189. rube-i-con August 15, 2013 at 12:24 pm #

    sorry, got cut off….

    let’s start again….

    plus, if, and as stated in the Stanford study, all the world’s solar panels are NET ENERGY PRODUCERS, by definition simply adding to the world’s stock of panels will let us produce more energy than we are using up.

    the constraint here, of course, is the space available for panels.

    vertical placement of panels, like skyscrapers, easily overcomes this alleged obstacle.

    peace peaceniks

  190. Carol Newquist August 15, 2013 at 12:35 pm #

    That is what makes the study you cite false.

    The study is not false. The study is a good faith attempt using science to have a discussion around the growth of energy consumption. That’s it, nothing more, nothing less. It cannot be refuted that energy consumption growth as stated in that analysis is impossible considering what we know NOW. Sure, it can be claimed that things can and do change, but those changes are unpredictable at the current moment and to put a positive spin on them versus negative spin is partial. Extrapolations are most accurately based on current scientific fact. If it is believed that energy consumption will not continue as described in the analysis, provide proof beyond mere pollyanish speculation. Read the comments to the link and not just the body. There’s a great discussion about all the issues raised in resistance to it. The bottom line is, growth in energy consumption has a definite limit that is rather proximate. The analysis underscores the need for a voluntary and planned contraction.

  191. Carol Newquist August 15, 2013 at 12:41 pm #

    The question becomes, is growth in human energy consumption unlimited? There appears to be an implied message making its rounds that it is indeed unlimited. Proof, backed by scientific analysis has been provided revealing that human energy consumption is indeed limited and that proof is now being labeled sophistry. At this point, the discussion is no longer in good faith and the message is being handled disingenuously.

  192. progress4what August 15, 2013 at 12:43 pm #

    OK, forget peak oil for the purposes of argument/distraction.

    What about peak water?

    What about peak soils?

    What about peak fertilizer?

    What about global pandemic?

    What about AGW?

    What about some effort to mitigate AGW that goes wrong?

    ——————————-

    Discussing JHK’s “Doom of the Week,” or issuses such as the above – are the logical purposes of this discussion board.

    Repeating endless “technology to the rescue” scenarios is nothing but Trolling – because it is a simple-minded repetitive asking of the settled questions that this board (and JHK) attempts to address.

    Here’s a novel idea – ban your repetitive Trolls, JHK.

    Or else implement some sort of moderation.

    Or else shut down this commentthread, aka Troll Forum.

  193. rube-i-con August 15, 2013 at 12:58 pm #

    Sure, it can be claimed that things can and do change, but those changes are unpredictable at the current moment and to put a positive spin on them versus negative spin is partial.

    That’s an awful big glossing over of the weakest point in your analysis. Massive gains in energy efficiency will greatly reduce our need for that energy growth you say is impossible to achieve. We don’t NEED to achieve that if we can cut our usage by several tens of percent.

    There are homes in Denmark, Switzerland, Germany etc. that produce more energy than they use, just like the global stock of solar panels is doing:

    http://inhabitat.com/ultra-efficient-danish-home-produces-more-energy-than-it-needs/

    Why does your analysis ignore massive drawdowns in energy consumption due to intelligent technology? I have cited LEDs, which use 75% less energy than regular light bulbs:
    http://energy.gov/energysaver/articles/led-lighting

    LED DID NOT EXIST a short while ago. hence, new TECHNOLOGY RADICALLY ALTERS ANY FUTURE-LOOKING ANALYSIS. and it’s not, as you say, “changes are unpredictable at the current moment and to put a positive spin on them versus negative spin is partial.”

    no, technology results in IMPROVEMENTS

  194. rube-i-con August 15, 2013 at 12:59 pm #

    IN efficiency that drastically EXTEND our energy supply.

    (sorry for the broken post again)

    peace peaceniks

  195. Carol Newquist August 15, 2013 at 1:01 pm #

    Using a demographic analysis of population as scientific proof is misleading. Population growth, obviously, is correlated positively with human consumption of energy growth, but it is by no means a perfect correlation. What’s more important is the increase in the material standard of living for more people. Two things are at play here; energy consumption per capita via greater material demands and increase in the number of people to which a materially consumptive lifestyle is afforded. Considering that, the overall population could level off or even decline, and energy consumption by humans can still increase as per the analysis.

  196. janet August 15, 2013 at 1:02 pm #

    Carol provides a study talking about a 275 year projection. Yet space-based solar could become a reality in 20 years, any 20 year period in the next 275 years when the NEED arises. (these energy problems are not intractable; it’s almost rocket science, but not quite 🙂 ) But SBS power has several advantages:

    Solar power satellites don’t produce any greenhouse gases or take up any space on Earth, and once they’re up there they’re relatively inexpensive to maintain.

    Earth-based solar systems are massively constrained by things like the weather, changing seasons and day/night cycles – not the case in space, where solar panels would be staggeringly more efficient.

    There’s little risk of terrorist attacks on solar satellites and they’ll reduce global pressure for oil enormously.

    Space solar systems could create independence for nations that rely on others for energy, and could be particularly helpful for isolated areas of the world.

    Solar satellites could provide enormous benefits to space exploration, and could pave the way for colonies on the Moon, space stations and even Mars.

    The International Academy of Astronautics (IAA) has recently published a lengthy report that claims space-based solar is actually entirely doable and should be taken seriously, noting that the concept could be realised within 10 to 20 years using technology that already exists.

    Cost is obviously a major factor, too, with the IAA report estimating a solar satellite system could demand up to a trillion dollars, but it’s widely-accepted that nations could ‘club together’ to bring the price down. Plus the return-on-investment would be staggering, and that’s likely to appeal to investors.

    Contrary to the “Too late!” pessimists, we have time to make this space-based solar solution happen.

    • Janos Skorenzy August 15, 2013 at 1:15 pm #

      How would the satellites transmit their energy to Earth? Microwaves? And what are dangers of that?

      We need to move our heavy industry off planet, but keep our energy production on planet. There are limits here but not out there.

  197. rube-i-con August 15, 2013 at 1:03 pm #

    Repeating endless “technology to the rescue” scenarios is nothing but Trolling

    hey bud, why don’t you ever cite anything based on hard science, why is it always just your tepid, useless opinion you spout?

    we are citing scientific studies that deal with the real world, citing figures, agencies, technologies that work now. you are the only one
    who thinks we are saying technology to the rescue, because you have the blind mindset that technology can’t save us, even as it does.

    you have offered nothing of value besides your valueless opinion, yet you call us trolls.

    kunstler, is THIS the quality of thinking you’re after? pathetic.

    peace peaceniks

    • Janos Skorenzy August 15, 2013 at 1:23 pm #

      The old Prog wasn’t like this. He relished a good debate.

  198. Carol Newquist August 15, 2013 at 1:19 pm #

    The point has been raised that efficiency will come to the rescue and allow unlimited growth, but wishing that doesn’t make it so. Here’s another analysis by the author of the original analysis to which I linked. It addresses the “efficiency” and “technology to the rescue” arguments, whether they’re raised in good faith or not.

    http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2011/07/can-economic-growth-last/

    Given that two-thirds of our energy resource is burned in heat engines, and that these cannot improve much more than a factor of two, more significant gains elsewhere are diminished in value. For instance, replacing the 10% of our energy budget spent on direct heat (e.g., in furnaces and hot water heaters) with heat pumps operating at their maximum theoretical efficiency effectively replaces a 10% expenditure with a 1% expenditure. A factor of ten sounds like a fantastic improvement, but the overall efficiency improvement in society is only 9%. Likewise with light bulb replacement: large gains in a small sector. We should still pursue these efficiency improvements with vigor, but we should not expect this gift to provide a form of unlimited growth.

    On balance, the most we might expect to achieve is a factor of two net efficiency increase before theoretical limits and engineering realities clamp down. At the present 1% overall rate, this means we might expect to run out of gain this century. Some might quibble about whether the factor of two is too pessimistic, and might prefer a factor of 3 or even 4 efficiency gain. Such modifications may change the timescale of saturation, but not the ultimate result.

    I submit this information for those who wish to review it in good faith, ingenuously. It’s as loathsome to proclaim that technology will prevail and provide a solution to this most basic issue as it is to throw up one’s hands and say “fuck it, we deserve it.” There is another way…..many other ways, so don’t allow the binary, dualistic bind that’s being played out here stifle your creative thought process. That appears to be the intent. If you’re aware it is, it won’t have the intended effect.

  199. rube-i-con August 15, 2013 at 1:46 pm #

    no one is saying ‘unlimited growth’. we’re saying we can go a long way toward meeting our energy needs using solar/renewables/smart energy efficiency gains, new materials.

    your initial premise is fatally flawed from the outset: Given that two-thirds of our energy resource is burned in heat engines, and that these cannot improve much more than a factor of two…

    you assume ‘our energy resource’ is fossil fuels here, along with nuclear power, which is stated in that link you provided.

    man oh man, that entirely throws out solar, hydro, wind, methane from decomposables. these are already providing 25% of all power in germany, for example. power that USED to be gotten from ‘heat engines’ and that heat engines no longer need to be used for.

    so the heat engine argument gets weaker by the year.

    secondly, your study states that light bulbs account only for ‘a small sector’:

    How much electricity is used for lighting in the United States?
    EIA estimates that in 2011, about 461 billion kilowatt-hours (kWh) of electricity were used for lighting by the residential and commercial sectors. This was equal to about 17% of the total electricity consumed by both of these sectors and about 12% of total U.S. electricity consumption.

    http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=99&t=3

    12% of all US electricity consumption is fucking gigantic! if we can cut this 75% via LEDs AND use solar that is HUGE. and that’s just lighting.

    stop using the straw man of ‘unlimited energy growth’, no one is saying that.

    peace peaceniks

    • Neon Vincent August 15, 2013 at 3:49 pm #

      On the subject of the future of energy production and use, I have a TED-style talk given by Roger Duncan of Austin Energy at the Texas Renewable Energy Industry Association (TREIA) explaining what he sees as the future of energy. One of the things he points out is that we’ve been producing energy for essentially the same way for more than a century, but he expects big changes.

      http://crazyeddiethemotie.blogspot.com/2013/03/the-present-and-future-of-energy.html

    • anti dod August 15, 2013 at 10:36 pm #

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dge1zBObDuw

      New Film with Matt Damon, who is all for public schools, but his are in private school.

      • Karah August 16, 2013 at 12:26 am #

        This is a guy with a nickname RAMZPAUL with a series of commentary on YOUTUBE about everything on the news…

        anti-dod is ramzpaul?

        Anyway…the whole thing about human behavior and why we’re so diverse…nature vs. nurture….

        If born into a lower class group or different language/social structure, will one be destined to live in that group and fail to assimilate into a different order of things?

        My experience has been, yes. He argues we can’t assume people born in the bush have the same genetic makeup as one born in Sweden. Science can and has proven all people are made equally, they’re all called HUMANS because we’re all of the same species. However, the movie confuses this with technology, which is what the movie is really about – technograndiocity. (Only seen the trailer)

        Obviously this guy, ramantidodpaulz, hasn’t thought about this long enough and considered all the factors that go into making up a society as we or they know it. Things like governmental structures, public education systems…things tribes in the forest have been deprived of because their environment is off the beaten path….yet they still have a form of government and education system. So this brings to mind the real point of the movie…

        What happens when you isolate people and institutionalize them? What eventually happens given a few decades or a century? We’ve seen it in our own REAL history. Isolated people seek their own selfish interests and society as a whole deteriorates rapidly.

        I was discussing social isolation with a friend of mine recently. She was struggling with WHY some of her close friends decided to withdraw from her and many other people after repeated attempts to draw them out. This applies because there have been repeated attempts to raise the quality of life of people but it has failed. My friend assumed it was her fault, she didn’t try hard enough. People say our institutions aren’t inclusive enough. I disagree with that assumption. Because all reasonable attempts have been made and people have been given “headstarts” and they willing CHOOSE to remain where they are in society. It has nothing to do with genetics or temperaments or any other excuse. LIfe is not fair; however, it’s how we react to that unfairness and what opportunities we seek and grab hold of that raises us above others. Not all people see opportunities the same way. This is pictured by Matt Damons character and every other character in fiction and real life who has exceeded beyond expectations or the status quo. Sometimes it takes one or many people to be the heroes and inspiration for others. That doesn’t mean the others weren’t ABLE to do it…they just didn’t want to.

        There’s absolutely nothing wrong with the genetic makeup of pigmies. Everything about them works fine. They procreate and work and have an organized way of dealing with hunger.

        • Karah August 16, 2013 at 12:27 am #

          Oops…my experience has been NO.

        • Janos Skorenzy August 16, 2013 at 2:45 am #

          Science has proven that the different races are radically different. The outside differences of pigment and features underlie the even greater differences of hormone levels and brain size. We would expect differences in ability and temperament and indeed there are. No sane person who has been around believes that the Japanese say are anything like Negroes.

          • anti dod August 16, 2013 at 10:23 am #

            Did you see Damons movie? Did you listen to RZPs riff?

          • Karah August 16, 2013 at 2:41 pm #

            Why do we not see “black” Japanese or Asians in general in their country? I don’t know but I’m certain it’s not because an asian person can’t “get it on” with a black person. In America I see A LOT of black men with asian women who’ve been able to have beautiful children.

            Maybe this is why JHK is confident Japan will come to radical adjustments sooner than anyone else because it can come to a consensus sooner than anyone else?

  200. janet August 15, 2013 at 1:59 pm #

    Carol says: “The point has been raised that efficiency will come to the rescue and allow unlimited growth”

    ===========

    Carol, who raised that point? Give me the name of one person on this blog who is saying we should “allow unlimited growth” … You are lying.

    No one here is saying growth is good. We are arguing sustainability.

    We are arguing demand destruction, i.e., LESS energy consumption: through price increases, resource depletion, population reduction, technological efficiencies, changes in human behavior.

    Not that technology will “allow unlimited growth” but that technology will reduce the demand for energy (LED versus candescent is a good example) and technology will allow for cleaner, less harmful energy production. Let’s hope fossil fuels don’t kill us first. As Bill McKibben says: if the oil in the ground is used many will die as a result of its use.

    “June 2012 broke or tied 3,215 high-temperature records across the United States. That followed the warmest May on record for the Northern Hemisphere – the 327th consecutive month in which the temperature of the entire globe exceeded the 20th-century average, the odds of which occurring by simple chance were 3.7 x 10-99, a number considerably larger than the number of stars in the universe.

    167 countries responsible for more than 87 percent of the world’s carbon emissions have signed on to the Copenhagen Accord, endorsing the two-degree target. Only a few dozen countries have rejected it, including Kuwait, Nicaragua and Venezuela. Even the United Arab Emirates, which makes most of its money exporting oil and gas, signed on. The official position of planet Earth at the moment is that we can’t raise the temperature more than two degrees Celsius – it’s become the bottomest of bottom lines. Two degrees.”

    Read more: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/global-warmings-terrifying-new-math-20120719#ixzz2c46OMUBn

    FOR OUR SURVIVAL: LEAVE THE OIL IN THE GROUND.

    • Neon Vincent August 15, 2013 at 3:54 pm #

      “FOR OUR SURVIVAL: LEAVE THE OIL IN THE GROUND”

      Especially leave the oil shale (not the same as shale oil) in the ground. I worked on a prototype oil shale extraction plant during 1982-1983 and was less than impressed with the entire enterprise. I have a standard rant about my experience, which I’ve included in a summary of energy news from California from this June.

      http://crazyeddiethemotie.blogspot.com/2013/06/energy-news-from-california.html

    • Neon Vincent August 15, 2013 at 4:18 pm #

      I just realized your main point was that continued fossil fuel use would, as I am fond of saying, allow us to increase carbon dioxide to Jurassic levels. That wasn’t a bad time for dinosaurs, but there were neither flowering plants nor placental mammals such as ourselves. While life can adapt to those conditions, the climate is changing faster than at any time since the terminal Cretaceous extinction. That may be too rapid a change for many species to keep up with their environment, leading to extinctions.

      http://crazyeddiethemotie.blogspot.com/2013/08/hot-climate-change-happening-at-record.html

  201. Janos Skorenzy August 15, 2013 at 2:05 pm #

    Hate crime trial begin for Black woman who kidnapped White boy and burned him to death with a blow torch. Where is the media coverage? Kdog, Vinny? Is she innocent because Black? Back in the 60’s the commies said all Blacks should be released from prison. Some still believe it.

    http://clashdaily.com/2013/08/hate-crime-trial-for-black-woman-who-killed-white-boy-with-blow-torch-begins/

    • anti dod August 15, 2013 at 8:56 pm #

      Is she the mom or grandmas lesbian partner? Were drugs involved?
      Is she a serial killer?

      • Janos Skorenzy August 16, 2013 at 2:42 am #

        Don’t know. The little boy had red hair. That really sets them off.

  202. Trean August 15, 2013 at 2:11 pm #

    Actually, Prog is spot on. One of the most serious problems we have is soil depletion. Most soil in the major farming regions of the world are seriously depleted. In large areas of north america and europe the soil is practically sterile. Without huge amounts of fertiliser the yields would collapse. Yet those same chemicals not only damage the land further but also the rivers and deltas. Add to that the overuse of weedkillers such as roundup, which has led to species of roundup proof weeds and GM seeds leading to insect and diesease that becomes GM proof. We are rapidly painting ourselves into a corner. If you doubt how serious this is a quick lap around the alarmed soil scientists of the world ought to give pause for thought.
    Mr Kunstler do your readers a favour and finally club the asoka troll and its spawn to death. Their drivel is akin to wading through a slurry pit.

    • anti dod August 16, 2013 at 10:25 am #

      NPR was talking Lake Mead this morning and how very depleted it is.
      Horrible drought in New Mexico as well.
      And the water in Lake Mead contains the recycled water from Las Vegas.

  203. Carol Newquist August 15, 2013 at 2:36 pm #

    Alright, good, it’s been agreed that unlimited growth is not being argued and that energy consumption shouldn’t continue unabated at the growth rates indicate in Murphy’s analysis. That’s all he’s saying. That’s the point he was making, not that investing in more sustainable alternatives is a mistake. He actually encourages and supports sustainable alternatives and indicates that efficiencies should be sought and realized, but he charges we shouldn’t believe that those sustainable alternatives and any and all efficiencies will allow for an unlimited growth in energy consumption.

    Now, that being said, how do we get from here to there considering the current economic model which only holds together because of growth? Without growth, the economy as it currently functions stutters, sputters and ultimately fails despite the machinations to disguise that fact. How is this problem addressed? It would seem a new form of economy is in order….one that rewards a less materialistically consumptive lifestyle and punishes the opposite. How could this be done considering the insurmountable opposition it would face? It would require those who currently possess the majority of the planet’s wealth and consume the majority of the planet’s resources to forfeit that status, and it’s hard to imagine this being accomplished voluntarily on their part. They will have to be brought to heel. Imagine trying to pry the fiction that is “Q. Shtik’s” insignificant (in the scheme of things even though it means EVERYTHING to him) pot of gold from his cold, almost dead hands. His grip on it is tighter than size 32 inch waste pants on Chris Christie. That’s pretty damn tight, you have to admit.

  204. janet August 15, 2013 at 2:54 pm #

    Yes, Trean, soil depletion is a serious problem. Three points:

    1) Technology that CFN Luddites despise as “too much magic” is one way of identifying the soil depletion problem. Mapping of soil degradation by space-based remote sensing is instrumental for understanding the spatial extent and rate of the problem. Methods aimed at detecting soil loss, soil drying, and soil-quality deterioration have been demonstrated in numerous studies utilizing passive and active remote sensors.

    2) Soil depletion is not an irreversible condition. Mother Nature responds and is forgiving once we show a willingness to work with Her.

    3) There are many ways to respond to soil depletion. One is urban agriculture, which is making a meaningful contribution to food security.

    Check out this article:

    Give peas a chance? Urban agriculture in developing countries. A review. Agronomy for Sustainable Development, June 2013

    http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13593-013-0155-8

    Once again, the pessimists cry “Too late!” and don’t even try to find solutions. They absolve themselves from any moral responsibility.

  205. Carol Newquist August 15, 2013 at 2:57 pm #

    One of the most serious problems we have is soil depletion.

    Agreed, soil depletion is a serious issue……a dire issue, even. Its exponential depletion has come about in large part because of corporate agribusiness. Yes, it would still have depleted otherwise, but at a much slower rate than is the case. Another contributing factor, there are many of course, is the Green Revolution brought about by synthetic fertilizers and herbicides/pesticides. Those became available because of Better Living Through Chemistry and the availability of cheap, easy fossil fuels brought to us once again by big business that relies on growth in market share for growth in profits. Considering that, which solution is more apt to address your concerns about soil depletion:

    1) U.S. immigration reform

    2) LEAVE THE HYDROCARBONS IN THE GROUND

    3) End of corporate personhood

    I don’t know about you, but I’m going with what’s behind door number two and three. Take care of those, and there is no need for what’s behind door number one.

  206. janet August 15, 2013 at 3:19 pm #

    Fossil fuels have received around 75 times more subsidies than clean energy.

    Up to 2011 (adjusted for inflation), the oil and gas industry received $446.96 billion in cumulative energy subsidies from 1994 to 2009, whereas renewable energy sources received just $5.93 billion.

    The oil industry is nervous. Clean energy is creating jobs. renewable energy is booming. Texas blew past its RPS (Renewable Portfolio Standards) goal set for 2015, and now more than 1,300 companies employ more than 100,000 in industries directly and indirectly related to renewable energy. The state’s own Republican Comptroller has noted that, “After the RPS was implemented Texas wind corporations and utilities invested $1 billion in wind power, creating jobs…and increasing the rural tax base.”

    Colorado’s RPS has been very successful. The American Wind Energy Association estimates that the state’s RPS is supporting at least 5,000 direct and indirect jobs and generating a billion dollars in annual wages along with millions in leasing revenue for landowners who benefit from the policy. Between 2006 and 2011, the Denver-metro area saw a 35% increase in direct employment growth in the clean energy sector; today more people are employed by the solar industry than the coal mining or steel manufacturing industries.

    GREEN SHOOTS ARE SPROUTING

  207. rube-i-con August 15, 2013 at 3:30 pm #

    club the asoka troll and its spawn to death. Their drivel is akin to wading through a slurry pit.

    this is what i mean. we cite hard scientific fact that shows good progress being made on the energy front, and shithead here, like a good PC nitwit, wants to not only squelch it, but to kill the messengers.

    you fucking nazi dirt. can’t stand a little light being shed on your delusions of doomsday?

    guess you lost the solar debate, seeing how you’ve switched to soil….

    pathetic whiners you doomsday pussies are. the only counterattack you have is to trot out your ‘vocabulary’, lol.

    hooray janet!

    • Trean August 15, 2013 at 4:59 pm #

      Nope never been in the solar debate. My entire power system is powered by pelton turbine and has been for the last14 years thanks.

      The problem that the west has is that gecause of soil depletion we will continue to need vast amounts of both oil and natural gas for both the production and use of fertilisers.
      It doesn’t matter what verbal garbage you spout or indeed what pathetic insults you toss out.
      Our soil is in the majority screwed. To rectify it is going to take an intensive program lasting some 20 years with a vastly reduced production capacity in the meantime.
      Now like it or not this will take massive government intervention. Firstly because lower production capacity will inflate prices and also reduce the value of land. It will also bring pressure to bear on imported food. The only current part of the world that can really ramp up production on the scale we will need is Africa and the Chinese are already heading there for the same reason.
      You might wish to do a little research on farming by chinese companies in Africa.
      Now most African countries have little agriculture on the scale of the west. Not only will they require huge investment but the workforce would require educating in the new processes.
      That is also assuming that they would want to actually sell it to us anyway. China will gobble up as much as they produce and have actual affordable trade goods. They can buy 3 chinese tractors for the cost of one john deere and still have enough to buy a laptop, generator and satphone!
      If we are screwed, it will not be from a lack of technology. It will be our own inability to deal with the most basic problems until we reach a crisis point.
      Trolls like janet who bleat on about urban agriculture and the like have absolutly no idea about farming or food production or the costs involved to give you your cheap food.
      As for you rube, certainly a fitting first four letters, to assume someone is against technology because they point out the shortcomings of both
      GM and chemical herbicides and pesticides shows a naivety that leads me to ask, does your mummy know your on her computer?

      • Karah August 16, 2013 at 2:54 pm #

        I don’t see the point in debating anything having to do with energy production unless you’re figuring out how to fund it.

        Most of what organizational bodies need to do is STOP funding wasteful activities and motivate INDIVIDUAL HOUSEHOLDS to become more self sufficient, to contribute their “free energy” to the upbuilding of their city environment. I saw a man the other day littering from his vehicle. If I was a cop, I could have fined him a thousand dollars maybe and had it on camera. I’m not a cop. I pay others to do this task but what could I do? Pick up the litter. Simple.

        You vote with your dollars when it comes to conservation of resources and don’t be too proud to sweep up after someone.
        I see people going around collecting batteries, scrap metal, etc. as a side business.

  208. rube-i-con August 15, 2013 at 3:30 pm #

    …and peace peacenigs

  209. Carol Newquist August 15, 2013 at 4:06 pm #

    today more people are employed by the solar industry than the coal mining or steel manufacturing industries.

    The bolded part is a bit misleading. Surely, this is referring to the U.S. because there is no way its accurate worldwide. In the U.S., coal mining has innovated significantly and is now highly mechanized compared to yesteryear. However, with electricity companies switching to natural gas versus coal, one would expect to see a further decline above and beyond attrition from mechanization. Steel production is another matter entirely in the U.S. Nearly all steel manufacturing has been off-shored in the U.S., so that’s the reason for decline in steel production jobs.

  210. BackRowHeckler August 15, 2013 at 4:22 pm #

    Is economic collapse still on for September? It got a good start today with the market down 225, and WTI Crude up to $107 per barrel.

    What’s needed now in Egypt is a Wise Leader with a Firm Hand, a Messiah with a message of peace if you will, perhaps one with the power to make the seas subside and the climate cool, and who has won a Nobel Peace Prize already.

    What’s that? We already have one. But he’s with the president of Comcast playing golf ‘on the Vineyard’? Alrighty then, that’s the last hope, the last hope of mankind.

    Good News! Say you’re in the Marine Corps and you want to Marry the dude in the next bunk. All perfectly understandable. Well, its been announced Secretary of Defense Hagel will grant you 10 extra days of leave, on top of the 30 you already get, to have the wedding and consummate the marriage. Mighty generous Secretary Hagel. Thank You, Sir!

    BRH

    • rube-i-con August 15, 2013 at 4:48 pm #

      don’t get sidetracked by guys marrying guys. forget it, it’ll just make you crazy, and anyway, who cares anyway? what do you care where they stick their johnson?

      just better your own life and forget that fluff.

      (sees buff Marine walking past…): Whoa, he’s cuutteee.

      peace peaceniks

    • Janos Skorenzy August 17, 2013 at 12:48 am #

      Yes you are realizing the incredibly weird message we send the world: we are for “Democracy” even when it puts in Muslim strong men. But a sensible moderate state? What fun is that? How is that going to help spread the New World Order which breeds on chaos and war.

      Needless to say, other times we are against Democracy. But in general, human stupidity can be depended on.

  211. progress4what August 15, 2013 at 5:01 pm #

    “The old Prog wasn’t like this. He relished a good debate.”
    – janos/vlad –

    This isn’t a “good” debate, vlad. It’s not even a bad debate.

    It’s mental masturbation and distraction Trolling on JHK’s doom dime.

    Ban janetasoka’s email address. He’s been derailing the conversation on this thread for too long.

    • ozone August 15, 2013 at 6:38 pm #

      I (as you might expect) understand perfectly what you’re saying.
      Those who would have us STFU try to portray us as “not doing anything” to mitigate predicaments, now and in future. (I’d make a large wager we’re doing a LOT more than they with the pretend mud-huttery and fluffy-cloud predictions.)

      Even Beans is not putting all his eggs in the “they’ll think of something” basket, and is DOING SOMETHING to improve his odds.

      None of us said that alternative energy COULDN”T possibly be employed to maintain some ghost of today’s overuse, just that it’s highly unlikely it WILL be done, and certainly won’t at today’s ERoEI. There’s an intentional twisting of meaning going on here and a pasting of labels on those who are anything but what those labels indicate. BTW, who would WE think the “bullies” are here?? This trolling is goddamn ‘newspeak’ all the way, something that Carl Rove would find delicious.

      Now for a trenchant outlining of just what we’re talking about:

      http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com/2013/08/the-ritual-theater-of-progress.html

      Unless we’re planning on sitting around with our thumbs up our asses waiting for rescue, the paid prevaricators’ talking points are moot.

      “A few years ago, for example, I was rash enough to point out in a post on the future of technology that the internet’s long-term viability in a deindustrializing world will not depend on whether maintaining an internet in such conditions is technically feasible, or whether it can do things that today’s geekoisie consider cool. Rather, I suggested, the survival of the internet will depend on whether it can pay for itself in a world where energy and resources will be much more scarce and expensive than they are today, and whether it can compete with other ways of providing the same services that are less dependent on extravagant inputs of depleting resources and complex technological infrastructures.

      I found the response to this suggestion utterly fascinating. The commenters who showed up to insist that the internet had to survive the end of the present age of fossil-fueled abundance didn’t dispute my argument; they didn’t mention it at all. Instead, they pretended that the point I’d raised had never been brought into the discussion, and insisted over and over again that keeping the internet viable in a deindustrializing world was technically feasible, that the internet can do all kinds of things that today’s geekoisie consider cool, and that the survival of the internet was therefore certain. Even when I pointed out to them in the comments that they were evading the issue I was raising, they kept on trying to talk about technical feasibility and the cool stuff the internet can do, and to pretend that economic limits had never been mentioned. This went on for three weeks of posts and commentary, until I finally shook my head and went on to the next topic.” -JMG

      And so forth and so on. You can easily surmise that this wishin’ and a-hopin’ (with a further added layer of paid gum’mint boosterism) is hardly unique to this blog.

      Now why would anyone want the sleepers to remain sound asleep, even to the point of adding a dose of narcotic?
      Cui bono?

      Meanwhile, my peas are just about done. They were great; very heat-tolerant, sweet and prolific. (An Agway variety called “Wando”.) I found with this experiment that I’d need about a 20′ row, minimum, to have enough of these treats for canning.

      • K-Dog August 15, 2013 at 11:16 pm #

        Paid gum’mint boosterism or not everyone passed basic physics. Some don’t know what it is and of those some never heard of physics. It’s sad to face the truth.

        Sit back and enjoy the show: or else.

        Cui bono, to whose benefit? To the benefit of those in charge of course, or so they think.

        It moves as if it were alive. The surveillance fair will make it to Vegas one of these years soon. I think they did it in Albuquerque last time or some place like that. I don’t know or care. If I’m wrong I’m wrong.

        Vegas baby, Cui bono !!!

        I’ll go with the twenty rows of Wando, maybe next year.

        Cui bono Corporations?

        😉

        • ozone August 16, 2013 at 7:06 am #

          K-Dog,
          Good comment of your’n over at the Archdruid’s circle of standing stones. Those who refuse to step outside the conventional-wisdom rituals are in big trouble already… psychological rigidity does not make for flexibility.

  212. rube-i-con August 15, 2013 at 5:12 pm #

    This isn’t a “good” debate, vlad. It’s not even a bad debate.
    It’s mental masturbation and distraction Trolling on JHK’s doom dime.

    what does that even mean?

    we’ve had some decent back and forth, at least, with links citing scientific points of view.

    how is that not debate?

    you just spout inane complaints about the posters that actually look for information to make an informed judgment. i commend the guys that are taking the opposite tack to me.

    this tired line that people arguing factually equates to trolling is just lame beyond belief.

    peace peaceniks

    Trean – do you really have a waterwheel powering your house? that’s awesome, upload some photos or let us know how much energy it provides

    • alpha mail August 16, 2013 at 11:54 am #

      It was a mud hut in South America last year. Today it’s a waterwheel.

  213. progress4what August 15, 2013 at 5:17 pm #

    “Considering that, which solution is more apt to address your concerns about soil depletion:

    1) U.S. immigration reform

    2) LEAVE THE HYDROCARBONS IN THE GROUND

    3) End of corporate personhood”
    … “carol” asks a reasonable question …

    Immigration reduction could result in a “soft landing” of US population growth at around 350,000,000+/-.

    And if we reduce desperation being caused by population growth, we might just accomplish #2 and/or #3, from your list.

    Otherwise – no changes are possible, until it’s far too late.

  214. progress4what August 15, 2013 at 5:24 pm #

    “what does that even mean?

    we’ve had some decent back and forth, at least, with links citing scientific points of view.

    how is that not debate?”
    ….rube-e-asoka….

    Because, rube, this is a doomer website.

    You’re Trolling it.

    Why?

    ========================

    And, btw, JHK has never joined into the “debate” on this comment thread.

    For you to claim that he is “on the ropes?,” or however you put it – demonstrates a moronic level of hubris on your part, rube.

    And it is certainly Trolling.

    • Janos Skorenzy August 15, 2013 at 5:57 pm #

      As I said before, you’ve seemed depressed lately and this confirms it. I’m a doomer too, but as the old song says, “There’s got to be a morning after.” America is going to fall and there may be no way to get rid of the DoD entity. But we can still plan for a future for ourselves and loved ones. And maybe in some areas, the White ones, some infrastructure will remain intact providing the nucleus of a new beginning.

      Is the Amnesty sell out bothering you? I commend you for loving your Country enough to be depressed.

      Welles has always been a friendly but combative presence. He has always been against the main thrust of this site. You had no call to call him a sock puppet unless you know that for sure. Again, I think he’s too sanguine as well, but so what? He provides grist for the mill of debate. We all need good opponents do we not?

  215. progress4what August 15, 2013 at 5:38 pm #

    Here’snJHK’s Monday delivery – asoka…troll version.

    The tattoed hordes of Europe are following the Germans into a magnificent future of renewable energy and photovoltaics. Bernankes’s successor doesn’t matter, because fiat currency has pushed gold into the fetid swamps of NASCAR.

    I, JHK, am shutting down my life’s work and joining an ashram in search of Osho. Yeah, I know he’s dead – but I’ve also given up Atheism and embraced a Search for Eternal Life.

    Are you happy now, “welles?” Janetasoka certainly is.

    Troll That!

  216. rube-i-con August 15, 2013 at 5:40 pm #

    i just want jhk to reply to a direct challenge to his grandiose claim that we’re in energy descent – when we point out with real world data that we’re not, or that we’re seriously addressing it with good results.

    oh sorry, i didn’t know that this is a doomer website and that no thought is allowed. i’ll take your lead though and refrain from thinking.

    btw, my rube-i-con name specifically was chosen to allow for the possibility that i am a rube sometimes, in my thinking, which is why i sometimes say i reserve the right to be wrong.

    unlike you doomsday pussies that just ‘know’ everything’s shot to hell, because it says so on your Mayan calendars.

    peace peaceniks

    • Karah August 16, 2013 at 3:02 pm #

      JHK does not agree with the title “doomer” for simple fact that he’s just a promoter of reality and has hope that humanity in certain parts of the country will abide. (The jews believe there will always be a remnant of civilization on the Earth.)

      We can react to the reality as doom for us because we can’t go on doing the activities we’d LIKE to do (driving in circles and wasting time in oversized, overclimatized boxes filled with fake, cheap, slave-made goods) or we can get used to being “uncomfortable”, get used to a world made by hand. (Why hasn’t anyone made lewd jokes about his novel title? It’s so tempting…)

      :o)

  217. janet August 15, 2013 at 5:57 pm #

    Trolls like janet who bleat on about urban agriculture and the like have absolutly no idea about farming or food production or the costs involved to give you your cheap food.

    Gee, I know enough to know that soil degradation could be alleviated by a simple change in agricultural policy to the use of perennial grains to improve food and ecosystem security. With the development of perennial versions of certain grain crops, compared to annual crops, perennial crops offer advantages for ecosystem maintenance, particularly in resource-limited, marginal land areas.

    Soil depletion is not rocket science. It is not an intractable problem. In spite of your claim “Now like it or not this will take massive government intervention,” a switch from annuals to perennial versions would not be that massive, but our soil would thank us and respond positively.

    If you want to know more, my claim is supported by an article in Science (an AAAS peer-reviewed publication, since you seem to be in a troll-labeling mood).

    S. C. Murray, et al. “Increased Food And Ecosystem Security Via Perennial Grains.” Science 328.5986 (2010): 1638-1639.

  218. Janos Skorenzy August 15, 2013 at 5:58 pm #

    Black terror against Asians. Let the story be told.

    http://frontpagemag.com/2010/ying-ma/ghetto-racism/

    So much for the historical grievance theory.

  219. janet August 15, 2013 at 6:10 pm #

    The only current part of the world that can really ramp up production on the scale we will need is Africa

    Since you brought up Africa, there are already experiments showing that integrating perennials with food crops can increase staple yields and restore the health of the soil. Growing perennial pigeon peas and groundnuts along with other crops improves the soil. This information comes from the journal Nature, which is another respected peer-reviewed scientific journal. Like I said, it’s not rocket science. Switch to no-till permaculture, stay away from the agribusiness model of monoculture, and the soil comes back to life.

    Glover, Jerry D., John P. Reganold, and Cindy M. Cox. “Agriculture: Plant Perennials To Save Africa’s Soils.” Nature 489.7416 (2012): 359-361.

  220. rube-i-con August 15, 2013 at 6:29 pm #

    Trean, can you give us some data from your Pelton wheel, how much power you get, the head, flow rate etc.?
    I would love to know more, since I am intensely interested in doing something like this, and you have 14 years experience.

    peace peaceniks

  221. progress4what August 15, 2013 at 6:40 pm #

    “i just want jhk to reply to a direct challenge to his grandiose claim that we’re in energy descent…”
    …”welles” continues to attack JHK…

    Again, JHK hasn’t mentioned energy descent or peak oil in weeks, maybe months. He’s been on the economy, tattoos, NASCAR, and “rednecks,” of various stripes.

    And, I for one, miss the oil commentary.
    I’ve been believing, since the 70’s, that something like peak oil would bring humanity to its collective senses. Unfortunately, it begins to appearthat this will not be the case.

    And that means that something much WORSE than peak oil maybe looming in the future.

    And that would be worth talking about. But that will never happen on CFN as long as the all-seeing, all-knowing Trolling Twosome is responsible for the bulk of comments.

    ======================

    And Vlad, thanks for the words of concern.
    But I’m notdepressed, just pissed – at the death of a once-great comment thread.

    Plus, my space bar fell off my laptop.

    • BackRowHeckler August 15, 2013 at 7:03 pm #

      So P4C are you of the opinion that there will indeed be enough petroleum to keep things going in the near future, and perhaps long after? I heard Richard Heinlein on C2C the other night; he was talking about energy shortages at the end of the century, the 21st century. If that’s the case who cares about peak oil … let the future take care of itself. I’m not going to worry about something that may or may not happen 80 years from now.

      –BRH

  222. rube-i-con August 15, 2013 at 7:55 pm #

    But I’m notdepressed, just pissed – at the death of a once-great comment thread.

    ugh, a once-great comment thread. i have difficult recalling anything of SUBSTANCE you’ve contributed in the last 80 posts.

    apparently you only want grand generalities like ‘we’re fucked’ and ‘we need a dieoff down to 500 million’.

    you’re pining for adolescent doomspeak, you revel in failure and epochal decline.

    ain’t happening, all the soothsayers from the 60s and 70s were entirely wrong about resource depletion, the end of growth, famine, massive dieoffs of populations, and even, literally, the end of the world (Hal Lindsey, the late great planet earth).

    you have a sadsack sorry history of being incorrect, and will remain losers in the dust as technotriumphant progress screams past you towards bionic bodies, and end to many illnesses, lifespans of 150 years, all the food you want growing in your back yard, travel to the moon for the middle class, internet-by-thought, the ability to unlock untold amounts of energy, self-driving cars that make accidents an extreme rarity, and many more marvels that will make 2013 seem quaint, like the 1880s are to us.

    it’s called normal human progress, in the great Western European Tradition (and Eastern European, to an extent) of science and liberal thought, and freedom.

    Doomers : you are on the exit to obscurity, as you are the equivalent of mental Shakers.

    JHK owes us a reply to this topic we have correctly pushed unrelentingly into the forefront of this discussion board.

    peace peaceniks

  223. progress4what August 15, 2013 at 8:11 pm #

    “…who cares about peak oil … let the future take care of itself. I’m not going to worry about something that may or may not happen 80 years from now.”
    …BRH/WSP/Marlin…

    Well, man – you’ve indicated that you refuse to “believe” in anthropogenic global warmingor sea level rise.

    So, I’m guessingthat soil depletion and freshwater shortages don’t hit your RADAR, either.

    Do you not have kids or grandkids, Marlin?

    You speak with such admiration of the Yankee shopkeepers, farmers, lintheads, and gunmakers that peopled your region only one or two short generations ago.

    I’ll guarantee you that most of those folks thought about a future, and wanted to see future generations thrive.

    What has happened?

    =================

    And to answer your question about fossil energy. That jury’s still out. I’m willing to concede the whole point just to see welles and asoka..janet stop Trolling.

    And I’m expecting perhaps a 15 yearabundance of nat. gas in the US; leading us to greater growth and increased immigrant-driven overpopulation – until thewhole thing comes crashing down, due to some unforeseen event –

    likely taking most of global civilization or all of humanity with it.

    ====================

    Maybe I should be depressed, Vlad.

    Plus, as everyone can see (TheTrolls plus the few others that read this TrollFest) my laptopisstillmissingitsspace bar.

    • BackRowHeckler August 16, 2013 at 6:12 am #

      There’s plenty of fresh water round these parts P2C, rivers and lakes everywhere that never run dry. They’ve been here 20,000 years, since the last ice age, when a layer of ice 1 mile thick stretching from the arctic to Long Island blanketed all New England. As far as sea level rise (the Messiah’s claims of lowering sea levels not withstanding) I spent a few weeks at a beach this summer, and it looks the same as it did when we were there in the 1960s. There hasn’t been any rising sea level. Yes, yes, but what about storms like Sandy that have devastated the NE Coast recently? Well, there were storms just as bad and worse in 1955, 1938, 1936, 1925, 1852, 1767 and the 1650s. These destructive coastal storms, blowing in off the South Atlantic, have been hitting here since the beginning of recorded history.

      — BRH

  224. progress4what August 15, 2013 at 8:17 pm #

    “…. technotriumphant progress screams past you towards bionic bodies, and end to many illnesses, lifespans of 150 years, all the food you want growing in your back yard, travel to the moon for the middle class, internet-by-thought, the ability to unlock untold amounts of energy, self-driving cars that make accidents an extreme rarity, and many more marvels that will make 2013 seem quaint, like the 1880s are to us.”

    – “welles,” on JHK and all who appreciate his thoughts…

    Oh great one, oh all-seeing and all-knowing “welles:”

    Why do you dirty your wonderous Troll Boots upon our manifest unworthiness?

    I just wanted a jetpack. 🙁

  225. rube-i-con August 15, 2013 at 9:24 pm #

    yeah, it hurts to see your dreams of disaster die in front of you, don’t it though.

    yet you instinctively reach for technology (a jetpack) to save you…..

    peace peaceniks

  226. janet August 16, 2013 at 12:36 am #

    rube said to P4W: yet you instinctively reach for technology (a jetpack) to save you…..

    I think the tech deniers more instinctively reach for technology like the chain saw or wood splitter or shredder or pick up truck or some such. It is still technology (though nobody here calls it the fossil-fuel dependent “too much magic” that it is).

    But they will bitch about alternative energy sources like solar panels.

    I bet that chain saw or pick up truck has not come down in price as much as solar panels have. Panel prices have dropped about 80 percent over the past six years.

    Nah, I’m sure their kind of magic has not come down 80% from what it was six years ago. Their magic is a black, dirty polluting magic as well.

  227. Karah August 16, 2013 at 12:44 am #

    Did y’all hear the podcast?

    Buffalo, NY! JHK won’t have to travel far!

    Party on. JHK and Norquist make the oddest couple, no?

    🙂

  228. Carol Newquist August 16, 2013 at 5:53 am #

    Things like governmental structures, public education systems…things tribes in the forest have been deprived of because their environment is off the beaten path

    “Have been deprived of”? That’s an interesting way to describe it. I’d say it’s elitist……that you’re pitying them because they don’t have stalwart societal institutions like us privileged people in the “developed” world. If we were to ask these deprived tribal people if they thought themselves deprived, what do you think their answer would be? One possible answer would be “not until you came along.” These deprived tribal people, The Moken, saved themselves (and some tourists) whilst the institutionalized Westerners and their lapdog locals perished in the hundreds of thousands. Institutions didn’t save the Moken. Institutions didn’t save the tourists who were born and raised in institutional society. In fact, an argument can be made that institutional society destroys the very capacity the Moken’s possessed to save themselves from the tsunami.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=681813n

    • Karah August 16, 2013 at 3:09 pm #

      Agreed Carol Norquist. If you had included my whole thought paragraph in your comment you wouldn’t have had to sing so long.

      Moving along…

  229. Carol Newquist August 16, 2013 at 6:18 am #

    JHK and Norquist make the oddest couple, no?

    Many of these podcasts are merely politely beating around the bush. There is some overlap of views between JHK and his “guests” but there are also significant points of divergence. It’s easier to write provocatively than it is to engage in vocal confrontation, so what ends up happening is a veneer of consensus agreement is presented, and if you’re a critical thinker, you can’t help but be dismayed by the nonchalance of it all. Norquist, as well-intentioned as he may be, is a hundred years too late with his solutions. If JHK’s alarmist rhetoric and prose are to be believed, what Norquist practices and suggests is too little, too late, and yet I doubt Norquist is challenged on this in the podcast, but imo, he should be. So, it makes me wonder, is Norquist aware of JHK’s specific beliefs, or is he too busy with his personal life and pet projects to delve too deeply into JHK’s sentiment? I know one individual JHK had on several weeks ago had to fit the podcast into his busy schedule. He was a college professor…..how busy can he really be? That’s another thing. People are so busy these days that they have to tell us how busy they are….every chance they get. “How are you?” “Oh God, I’m so busy!” You want to say to them “you’re busy doing nonsensical shit. Maybe if you stopped for a second and introspected and reflected, you’d see what a waste of time your life has been up to this point and maybe make some changes.” But people don’t want to be not busy. When they’re not busy, they have to think about the shit we think about here…..and that makes them uncomfortable….and we can’t have that, can we?

    • Karah August 16, 2013 at 3:25 pm #

      Yes, I’ve noticed JHK tries hard not to challenge his guests because he’s looking for a consensus. At least once in every cast he introduces one of his “points” or “theories” and asks the guest if they see things that way, too. He picks the guests based on their background and accomplishments so they may speak with some authority on the matters at hand. JHK is able to stay silent! (with the exception of the scratching of a pencil on paper). All his guests have been agreeable when focused on a few points that have to do with THEIR OWN activities whether it’s in the blogosphere or not.

      Everyone should take a lesson from Kunstler on how to conduct themselves in these discussions (myself included). We do not have to address everyone who chimes in. We can include some emotion and passion in what we have to say at the same time being balanced and respectful. We can form loose friendships with people who don’t live near us, have different beliefs than us, are from different backgrounds and make different choices than we would in order to exist. Not everyone has to be a writer or researcher or high level this or that to understand and article the challenges before all of us to make a living. We just go at them from different angles. JHK is a journalist and he’s telling a story and trying to get all the angles. Brilliant.

  230. progress4what August 16, 2013 at 9:53 am #

    My statement, “I just wanted a jetpack,” was a humorous cultural referent to the failed Promised Future Technologies of the ’50’s and ’60’s.

    It’s too bad that both “welles” and asoka…janet are both too humor-impaired to get the joke. That may explain a few things, here.

    As far as:

    “I think the tech deniers more instinctively reach for technology like the chain saw or wood splitter or shredder or pick up truck or some such. It is still technology…” … asoka…janet…

    To the contrary, O3 and I have conjectured that chain saw fuel might be a bargain, even at $100/gallon.

    And we can conjecture that asoka…janet betrays himself as completely unfamiliar with the real fuel and the real physical work required to keep humanity in fuel, food, and fiber.

    =======================

    And I tried running my chainsaw on solar PV, but it wouldn’t run in the shade of the trees – for some odd reason.

    And I filled the bed of my little truck with batteries, but there wasn’t enough room left to haul much of anything – for some odd reason

    And it was too heavy to climb up the hill to town – for some odd reason.

    ===================

    One or more of CFN’s Techo Triumphalist Trolling Twosome will now tell me of the Wonderful New Battery Technologies “coming in the future.”

    Yeah. Riiiighht.

  231. Q. Shtik August 16, 2013 at 10:10 am #

    Panel prices have dropped about 80 percent over the past six years. – Ja’Soka

    Why? What caused the drop?

  232. rube-i-con August 16, 2013 at 10:44 am #

    And I tried running my chainsaw on solar PV, but it wouldn’t run in the shade of the trees – for some odd reason.

    try plugging it into the outlet powered by solar panels feeding into the grid from millions of homes. if it’s electric, that is.

    secondly, this is just another strawman. who ever said you can run a chainsaw on solar? HAHAHAHA, what nonsense!

    Can you power a rocket from coal or oil? Well then, there you go! Coal and oil are weakling technologies that should be thrown out! So says your reasoning.

    but you might be able to run your chainsaw on 18.6 billion kilowatt hours of power:

    Just weeks after the solar industry installed the one millionth system in Germany, the country’s solar trade association announced that the technology accounted for 3% of total energy generation in 2011 — increasing 60% over 2010 to 18.6 terawatt-hours (18.6 billion kilowatt-hours.)
    Even with changes to the feed-in tariff that have reduced solar photovoltaic installations compared with previous boom years, the sector was still the fastest growing among all other renewable energy sectors in 2011, according to preliminary figures.
    This follows data released last week showing that renewable energy accounted for 19.9 percent of electricity production in the country in 2011, growing 16.4 percent over 2010. Meanwhile, overall energy use in the country fell 4.8% due to warmer temperatures and increasing efficiency efforts, further boosting the value of solar generation.

    To the contrary, O3 and I have conjectured that chain saw fuel might be a bargain, even at $100/gallon.

    yeah, that’s about the only thing we EVER get from you luds, conjecture, i.e. worthless opinion based on future fantasy of collapse, where – (ominous music) – $100 a gallon is a bargain cuz you can cut wood while everybody else is freezing to death due to the cataclysmic collapse that’s also assumed.

    And I filled the bed of my little truck with batteries, but there wasn’t enough room left to haul much of anything – for some odd reason

    you might then want this 804HP electric pickup, since you can’t even bother to research your anemic anti-solar reasoning:

    http://www.viamotors.com/news/electricpickuptruck-2/

    I think we’ve now exhausted this solar/anti-solar battle. We have 40 years or so of continual scientific development, efficiency gains, massive worldwide installation, stunning real-world successes, whole industries etc. on our side, gaining critical mass fast and challenging fossil fuels in terms of performance and cost, pollution, flexibility, etc.

    In other words, a real, verifiable track record backed by science and practical application.

    On your side, we’ve got the inability to power a chainsaw, drive up a hill in your pickup while listening to kenny chesney, and the absolute inability to survive an unforseen cataclysmis event ‘sometime in the future’.

    CFNers, take your pick.

    peace peaceniks

  233. janet August 16, 2013 at 10:53 am #

    Why? What caused the drop?

    “We always knew each doubling of [solar PV] installation would reduce prices about 18%,” the Clean Edge founder, Ron Pernick, told the Guardian. Pernick said that prices were falling because the sector was expanding rapidly, doubling every one to two years. New solar PV installations expanded to 31GW in 2012, while revenues decreased by $12bn – or 19% – to $80bn.

    Q., my name is Janet. I am a woman. And it appears I know more than you about money.

    • Q. Shtik August 16, 2013 at 11:52 am #

      Are these numbers worldwide or just the USA? Please post a link to the article you quoted from.

    • Q. Shtik August 16, 2013 at 12:41 pm #

      You will always be the androgynous White liberal do-gooder named Asoka to me, Ja’Soka.

      Be that as it may, I found the article and here it is

      http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/mar/13/surge-renewable-energy-solar-panel

      for others to read. Interesting that a doubling of panel installations resulted in approximately the same amount of revenue. Therefore an installation company would do twice the work, incur perhaps double the labor expense and other expenses related to installations and reap only the same revenue. Thus net profit would have to have fallen dramatically as a percent of gross revenue. I can hear the panel installation company owner at a cocktail party lamenting to his friends, “I’m working my ass off twice as hard for less money.” (What ever happened to that commenter named Solar Guy? Maybe he could chime in here.)

      Not discussed in the article was the fact that there was worldwide competitive subsidization by governments (trying to achieve dominant market share) that resulted in a glut of panels that resulted in a crash in panel prices to well below manufacturers cost. That is why panel manufacturers like JA Solar, First Solar and many others suffered a crash in their stock prices in 2008. Many companies went belly up or were absorbed by others via merger.

      All that aside, as the price of oil rises inexorably (as Charlie Munger said) solar use will grow and someday will pull even economically with carbon based fuels.

  234. beantownbill. August 16, 2013 at 11:18 am #

    Finally! I’m happy to see the debate about technology. Please keep in mind that technology is just a tool. It’s how it is used that’s important. I’d like the debate to veer towards a more in depth discussion about how technology is used by humans and what it means for our survival. Why are we in our current situation? Is it somehow the fault of fossil fuels that our civilization is so dependent on them? Why have we allowed this to happen? Is there some fatal flaw in Homo sapiens such that technology will kill us?

    Much of this discussion is philosophical in nature, but human civilization starts with philosophy. As most of you know, science was originally a branch of philosophy until only a few hundred years ago.

    Being aware how humans function in various situations is vital to develop plans for the future. Maybe the debate ought to be: Should we abandon technology because of its lethality, or should we just be wise in considering the implications of what we are doing and act accordingly?

  235. janet August 16, 2013 at 11:53 am #

    Beantown says: Please keep in mind that technology is just a tool. It’s how it is used that’s important.

    Technology is not “just a tool.” They say that a lot in the context of schools and education.

    Calling technology “just a tool” is like saying “electricity is just energy.” What you are missing by saying that is the significant impact that electrification and industrialization has had on society.

    Something is “just a tool” if it is used by just one person (or CFN entity) and has a focused/limited purpose. A monkey using a stick to bring down the banana, for example.

    Technology is much more than that. It is transformative. We still have paper and pens and envelopes and stamps and we still could write letters, if we wanted to. But we usually don’t because other technology came along and transformed us and the ways we communicate. Instead of one to one, for example, we can communicate one to many, like through a CFN blog post.

  236. Carol Newquist August 16, 2013 at 1:09 pm #

    You will always be the androgynous White liberal do-gooder named Asoka to me, Ja’Soka.

    Attachment disorder on full display with this statement.

  237. progress4what August 16, 2013 at 1:13 pm #

    “On your side, we’ve got the inability to power a chainsaw, drive up a hill in your pickup while listening to Jonas Kaufmann, and the potential ability to survive an unforseen cataclysmis event ‘sometime in the future’.”
    …..p4w pokes fun @ “welles”…

    “CFNers, take your pick.” ….”welles” throws the gauntlet…

    Logically, “welles,” more CFNers are interested in the possibility of facing decline with an open mind – than are interested in your Amazing TechoPhilic Future.

    That’s what makes this unmoderated site so easy to Troll.

    ====================

    And, good questions, Bill.

  238. Carol Newquist August 16, 2013 at 1:16 pm #

    Technology is not “just a tool.” They say that a lot in the context of schools and education.

    I agree. Technology, like Jewish, is a state of mind. This hip chick explains. What she says applies to technology equally as well as it does to Jewish. Enjoy.

    http://professionalchicks.wordpress.com/2011/08/19/jewish-is-a-state-of-mind/

  239. Carol Newquist August 16, 2013 at 1:24 pm #

    listening to Jonas Kaufmann

    In a tutu no doubt. Screw Kenny Cheesney, give me some Willie Nelson. Here’s a great one from him about the implications of attachment disorder.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1ZSZUSrXc8

  240. rube-i-con August 16, 2013 at 1:26 pm #

    Finally! I’m happy to see the debate about technology.

    mostly a waste of effort, there’s little to no debate on scientific grounds.

    jhk really needs to chime in with his 2¢ on the topic, to clear the air a bit and reset the focus.

    if he’s the energy-descent maven, you’d think he’d at least drop us a line like he cares.

    failing that, i’d have to conclude we’re just s’posed to rev up the chatter levels so he can show some advertisers he’s got glasball stickiness & pull in some revenue for hisself.

    wrong?

    peace peaceniks

  241. progress4what August 16, 2013 at 1:30 pm #

    “…mostly a waste of effort, there’s little to no debate on scientific grounds.” ….welles?….

    I guess HE ClusterFucking told your ass, Bill!!!

    Sheesh.

  242. Q. Shtik August 16, 2013 at 2:06 pm #

    I should have read that article more carefully. It was much worse than I thought. Here’s the opening paragraph:

    “The global deployment of renewable energy from wind, solar and biofuels grew in 2012 but the income from the sector remained flat due to the plummeting costs for solar photovoltaic panels”

    Some of the numbers presented were for “renewable energy from wind, solar and biofuels” while other numbers were for solar alone. Revenues from solar were $63B (my calculation) then dropped in 2012 by 19% (or $12B). Solar was by far the smallest of the 3 renewable elements. Combined they totaled $249B in 2012, a gain of 1% from the prior year. So they must have been about $246B in 2011. Of that $246B solar accounted for $63B or 25%. Then in 2012 the 3 renewable elements totaled $249B of which solar contributed only $51B or 20%.

    Too bad the article was not based entirely on gigawatts since dollars give a distorted picture.

  243. Carol Newquist August 16, 2013 at 2:08 pm #

    I just got done listening to the latest podcast with John Norquist. It was informative. He’s not the most animated fella, but he knows his facts, and I learned a few things. Also, I stand corrected on a comment I made earlier. I asserted without checking that the majority of steel manufacturing in the U.S. had been off-shored, but only 30% of it has ….the higher quality, special purpose steel. The remainder is still manufactured in the U.S. I need to research this further to determine then what has happened, and continues to happen, to the U.S. steel industry besides the typical blame it on the unions claptrap. I’m sure it will be difficult to find an objective analysis. If you have objective sources, I’d welcome them.

    • Q. Shtik August 16, 2013 at 2:20 pm #

      I’m sure it will be difficult to find an objective analysis. If you have objective sources, I’d welcome them.

      I am the world’s foremost authority on steel production. What would you like to know?

    • Q. Shtik August 16, 2013 at 3:31 pm #

      I just got done listening to the latest podcast with John Norquist.

      Oh shit. All these mentions of “Norquist”… I just assumed you were talking about ma main man Grover who wants to shrink government till it can be drowned in a tub.

    • Karah August 16, 2013 at 3:57 pm #

      Norquist said the reason most steel is produced here is due to WEIGHT and the costs of fuel to ship the vasts amounts of huge steel to build our infrastructures. JHK already mentioned in his blog the challenge to OTHER COUNTRIES that ship heavy steel back and forth. I’d like to include in the conversation the fact that we are seeing an ever increasing lower grade of steel in cutlery made in CHINA. I have stainless steel chef’s knives where the tips have broken and chipped, rust and holes are appearing in the sides. I’ve lightly researched steel production and there are various less expensive energy consuming ways of producing certain types of steel. Metallurgy requires intense amounts of controlled heat in order to produce anything of value. Most of the heat they use now comes from chemical reactions and not burning vast amounts of coal (other than in the production of electricity). The innovations in steel production have been primarily in the U.S. and other countries are now using the techniques. Same thing happened with Rome and their technology as far as concrete, defenses and weapons. Once you use something, it’s out there and then everyone else can produce it, use it and sell it. So you have to keep innovating and staying ahead of everyone else if you want your country to continue to dominate. But that’s not really the goal here, to dominate. The goals should be shifted to more local production of whatever we need so we don’t have to fight/dominate others for it. The INTERNET is a key tool in this process of education and empowering people in other countries to not just get wealthy but become smarter at what they’re already doing (fishing, building, etc.) I’m really sick of seeing the same old pictures of young men in the middle east with their faces covered throwing rocks. I’ve been seeing this all my life and it’s really stupid and unnecessary and no one is really analyzing this process in the media. They’re just pointing a camera and showing how stupid people can be even with access to higher learning, etc.

  244. BackRowHeckler August 16, 2013 at 2:14 pm #

    How’s Obama’s Middle East Policy going? Up for another Nobel Peace Prize? I hear they’re having some fab parties out ‘on the Vineyard’ this week. Some of the richest people in America are there, but I doubt any Owser types will be on the Island raising hell like protesters did with President Bush at his ranch in Texas. No, there are two types of rich people in America, and the kind on Martha’s Vineyard this week are the kind the leftists don’t protest. Where are the war protesters; 3 soldiers were killed and several wounded in a battle with the Taliban just yesterday? Where is Cindy Sheehan? Instead we get an ass-kissing, obsequious media, out of NY and Washington, fawning over every move. Is there a bigger Obama Ass Kisser in the United States than Charley Rose? If there is, please identify him.

    BRH

    • ozone August 16, 2013 at 6:28 pm #

      BRH,
      Sunday. Brit Jam. Haddam Neck Fairgrounds.
      Door Prize – Triumph Trident T-150. awarded at 3:30.

  245. rube-i-con August 16, 2013 at 2:32 pm #

    Logically, “welles,” more CFNers are interested in the possibility of facing decline with an open mind – than are interested in your Amazing TechoPhilic Future.

    bingo, you show your true bias – it’s only ‘decline’ that’s in our future. and of course you’re NEVER specific on what you mean. you just serve up lukewarm generalities that don’t have any substance, it’s all just tired bromides.

    all the while technology makes cars get higher mpg, solar helps entire nations power themselves – hell, even the white house is putting up solar panels, and the branches of the US military are prepping to draw 25% of all energy from renewables in a few years, and electric cars whiz around, and LEDs use 75% less energy.

    but, if you want to live in a morass of your own flaccid opinion, we can’t help you. some people just want to stay blind, it’s reeeeal comfortable.

    LOL, what does facing decline with an ‘open mind’ even MEAN lol? like, i better cut cords of wood, stock up my root cellar with taters, buy ammo, get the generators lubed? is it moving to where no one else lives? is it growing your own food?

    some of that, at least, is just common sense, and has nothing to do with decline.

    please explain, i want to know more of what this open mind vis-a-vis decline means.

    cfn’ers must hate the fact that history is never on their side. progress goes forward, while you guys are clogging up the wayback machine to 1797.

    plus, you’ve had your shots at decline and chaos, and it never turns out like you say. mayan calendar, y2k, the financial meltdown and martial law coming.

    humans (some of them who really do have an open mind) are generally positive people and work to better their future, at least in the Western world.

    it really is amusing that you even use the internet, it must bring about lots of self-loathing to communicate at the speed of light, order survival gear and compare prices on Ford F-150s and chainsaws while belittling the ability of technology to make drastic improvements in our lives!

    woohoo, another product of the american educational system!

    peace peaceniks

    • beantownbill. August 16, 2013 at 3:48 pm #

      A debate on technology IS worthwhile. Despite our advances, we are still making poor decisions on how we use our technology. For example, should we be putting in so much effort to make automobiles that get better gasoline mileage, when we could have a crash program to develop another type of engine not dependent on fossil fuels? What about a space-based crash program to deliver solar energy to us?

      Instead, we spend our financial and human resources on warfare, better smartphones, social programs with massive loopholes in them, etc. We should already have a functioning permanent moon base mining lunar materials. This is the result of our screwed-up priorities. Maybe an effective debate can help make CFNers aware that there is still hope for a spectacular future.

      • Karah August 16, 2013 at 4:10 pm #

        There’s no time for debate. People have to choose where they want to spend their hard earned and increasingly devalued dollars.

        It’s stupid to commute 30 minutes to a job that produces nothing of real value. A farmer would only commute a few times a month or year depending on what he produced to sell in the central market.
        Real value is something people will buy or need and not just a service or whimsy. Gold has no real value. You can’t eat it and it doesn’t work. The dollar is based on energy potential or what someone will do for it. People are working for money to buy things of no real value. A house is only valuable if it is in a secure place, has access to running water, electricity and someone with a continuing flow of income to buy whatever the household needs to function properly. The Home Depots and Lowes of this system will not save you when you have to fix or do something to your properties if utilities stop or if you have to move in order to find work. Say goodbye to your town and home if the pensions dry up, you lose your city job or you become seriously disabled.

        Think about who is really going to be there for you during changing circumstances and it’s not going to be some smart, good looking guy a la Norquist knocking on your door, listening to your concerns and asking for your vote.

        • rube-i-con August 16, 2013 at 4:49 pm #

          Gold has no real value. You can’t eat it and it doesn’t work.

          You might mean gold has no intrinsic value, but neither does the dollar. both just facilite exchange.

          both can be used for the same purpose, it’s nonsensical to say gold has no value. give me your worthless gold, if you have any.

          i agree that there’s no time for debate, though, like you said. too much pressure to earn today’s bread today, and get it while you can.

          as far as crash programs go, i don’t see it happening, not when 98% of the people functioning in the real world, with all the pressure on them, already use gas-fired engines. they’re not going to reorient themselves towards another solution.

          if that was imposed on them, you’d get USSR-style crap results.

          peace peaceniks

  246. Carol Newquist August 16, 2013 at 3:40 pm #

    Oh shit. All these mentions of “Norquist”… I just assumed you were talking about ma main man Grover who wants to shrink government till it can be drowned in a tub.

    I can’t take someone named Grover seriously. Who names their child Grover? A fucked up sadist, that’s who. Of course, there was Grover Cleveland…..one of my favorite presidents of all time; you would like him too….do you know why?

  247. janet August 16, 2013 at 3:41 pm #

    BackRowHeckler asks: How’s Obama’s Middle East Policy going? Up for another Nobel Peace Prize?

    Well, let’s see… there was Bin Laden. Bush said he closed down the Bin Laden search operations. Obama said no let’s finish what we started and took out Bin Laden.

    Well, let’s see… there was Iraq. McCain says increase the surge, send more troops, but Obama said no, let’s wind this down. And Obama ended USA involvement.

    Well, let’s see… there was Libya. McCain wanted war, but Obama said let’s not jump into a war there.

    Then there was Syria. McCain wanted war, but Obama said let’s not jump into a war there.

    Then there was Egypt. McCain says Obama. did not go far enough in responding to the outbreak of violence in Egypt. Obama said let’s not jump into a war there either. We’re not even going to play war games there.

    So, yeah, I’d say he’s kept us out of wars in four countries and deserves another Nobel Peace Prize.

  248. janet August 16, 2013 at 3:47 pm #

    raising hell like protesters did with President Bush at his ranch in Texas.

    I spoke to my girlfriend Cindy about this. They didn’t let her get close to Bush or the ranch. They made her stand in a ditch a ways away.

  249. Carol Newquist August 16, 2013 at 3:48 pm #

    with the exception of the scratching of a pencil on paper

    Ha! I heard that too. I’m waiting for JHK to invite me as a guest for one of his podcasts. I’d promise to make it a blast. Maybe he’ll switch gears and direction with these podcasts and go Morton Downey Jr. That would be something to see….or hear.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INH6xr5Lk4U

    Al had a beautiful head of hair, didn’t he?

  250. Q. Shtik August 16, 2013 at 3:49 pm #

    Please keep in mind that technology is just a tool. – Bean

    She sat in her frillies on the King sized bed. I dropped my trousers and slipped out of my Calvin Klein boxers. Her eyes widened and she began to tremble. I said “don’t be nervous honey, it’s just a tool.

    • Karah August 16, 2013 at 4:13 pm #

      Why does she have to see it at all?

  251. Carol Newquist August 16, 2013 at 3:55 pm #

    her frillies

    What the hell are “frillies”? Is it what steel manufacturing experts call lingerie? What a gay and archaic term to use.

  252. janet August 16, 2013 at 3:56 pm #

    BRH asks: Where is Cindy Sheehan?

    You might not have noticed that the soldiers are operating out of a government program funded at over $500 BILLION taxpayer dollars a year.

    Cindy Sheehan has to raise her own funds just to get from place to place. She does not get BILLIONS of taxpayer dollars to fund her antiwar activities.

    And to answer your question, Cindy just finished a cross country peace tour and ended it with a protest in front of the White House. She has about as much chance of getting to see Obama as she did with Bush. But she is protesting both of their wars.

  253. Trean August 16, 2013 at 4:09 pm #

    Janet/asoka what makes you think that by chucking in a reference to a scientific paper, which you clearly have not fully read, validates your argument. Perennial grains are decades away from giving yeilds sufficent to those produced in conventional farming. The land institute have already been working on it for over twenty years. Yields at best account for forty per cent of that of conventional wheat.
    This is why it is not being used by conventional farming yet. A loss of over half of the farms revenue yet still incurring almost the same costs would drive even the most efficent producers to the wall!
    Paper after paper mentions this in their conclusions. At best alternating rows make some improvement in the soil but it is widely admitted such and undertaking needs decades to restore the soil.
    As for no till again you have chucked inba reference without actually understanding any of the issues involved.
    No till depends heavily on both the soil type and the terrain.
    For example no till performs poorly on sandy or light loam soil and canactually increase compaction and water run off.
    In heavy clay soil it can produce cracking and severe soil degredation.
    All extremely well documented.
    Due to the nature of our soil we experimented with keyline ploughing which has worked wonders.
    Incidentally if you ever find a commercially viable method of no till for root crops such as potatoes, carrots etc you’ll be a millionare!

    • Karah August 16, 2013 at 6:13 pm #

      Thanks Trean. Australian, Yeoman, who started keyline systems of water conservation also writes about the economy!

      http://www.keyline.com.au/TLY.html

      He proposes all citizens should receive yearly dividends from their government. For Australians it’s about 60K$! With all the new money is the paying off of bank debt.

      My conclusion to the economic crises is that anyone who has a net worth of a million dollars can be their own bank. They can buy a computer program, hire a secretary, lawyers etc….everything a bank has in order to function as a legal public entity…the exception being they are in a private home funded by private citizens.

      Any transactions larger than a million dollars must be overseen by public banking institutions that only the millionaires can use. Public banking is no longer practical for anyone making less than million dollars a year. Since millionaires/small business is a large employer of people and a major contributor to the economy, they should be banking advisors. They should be holding more loans and paper and risk than the banks. Banking should be more local and less national. That way if a plant blows up here or an airline fails there. It doesn’t affect as many peoples investments. Millionaires will be more invested in their local economies and know how to buffer much of what is going on in the greater financial world.