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America the Horror Show

     Finally the USA has an act that perfectly expresses its true spirit as the horror show nation among nations: the random mass slaughter of little children by a maniac. Is it not so that the failure to protect little children from harm is the most shameful weakness an adult human can present?
     Next, of course, comes the empty ritual of pretending that we must make sure something like this never happens again. How? By some forensic inquiry into the psychology of the shooter, Mr. Lanza… his comings, goings, email musings, Netflix rentals, chemical composition of his fingernail clippings? We flatter ourselves with the technocratic conceit that if we can measure something enough, we can control it. Ban assault weapons or tighten up the background checks? The horse is out of the barn on that one. There are enough weapons loose in the USA to conduct a full-scale Civil War right now. And probably enough ill feeling. Just pick the flavor of the conflict you want: ideological? Religious? Racial? Regional?
      For what it’s worth, the Newtown Massacre to me is largely about the failure of men in America, and in particular the failure of men to raise up male children into men. The tragic monster that Mr. Lanza grew up into lived with Mom and ended up parking four bullets in her brain. Imagine the tensions in that monster. It’s not an accident that the commercial fantasies represented in movies and television aimed at boys are populated by legions of super-heroes. This sort of grandiosity — the wish to project supernatural powers — is exactly what you get in boys who have not developed competence in any reality-based, meaningful realm of endeavor — and I wouldn’t necessarily include school, such as it is in our time, as a reality-based, meaningful realm of endeavor, since it is mostly a brutally boring accreditation process. Notice, Mr. Lanza’s chief instrument of death was the “Bushmaster.”  His weapon made him a “master” of something, at least, even if it was just the systematic slaughter of six-year-old kids and the women in charge of them.
     History has its own arcs and particular moments in history have their own spirits of the time. This moment for us is the sum of the unintended consequences of countless bad choices we’ve made for many decades against the backdrop of enormous material riches. I’ve inveighed against these manifold fiascos enough for this audience. The net result is a nation that has turned men either into weaklings, fakes, or monsters. I think the greater tragedy is that we are past being able to teach ourselves how to act and now it is up to nature and history to provide the only kind of instruction we can understand.
     I used to crack a joke when showing a particular slide in my visiting college lectures that “we’re a wicked people who deserve to be punished.” 
smiley.jpg
It’s not so funny anymore. Look around at the squalid mess that America has made of its own terrain: the endless wastelands of free parking and slumping strip malls, the wilderness of tract housing subdivisions, the cities left cored, rotting, and stinking in the fall drizzle, the countless redundant roadways — and while you’re at it, take a good hard look at the depressing and disgraceful industrial boxes that school is conducted in, these euphemistically-named “facilities.” We live in physical surroundings that are the perfect growth medium for serial killers, mass murderers, psychopaths with no feeling, and sado-masochists preoccupied only with the ritual orchestration of their own shame and guilt in the service of inflicting pain. 
     Let me remind you that there is a range of thought and feeling evinced in human culture that no longer exists in America. These things were called virtues. They are qualities in thought and action related to goodness and excellence, and they are in very short supply these days in the USA, though we are well-supplied with fakes and approximations of virtue — such as the moments of sham heroism witnessed yesterday afternoon and evening by men watching televised football. What matters now is that an epochal undertow of events is dragging this enormous nation into an economic convulsion that will inevitably turn political. I don’t think that our society can be redeemed in its current form. It has to pass through a tribulation that demands the reemergence of adult male humans who know how to be men in more than one dimension. And you who make it through to the other side will barely comprehend the monsters left behind, or how they made themselves that way.
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About James Howard Kunstler

View all posts by James Howard Kunstler
James Howard Kunstler is the author of many books including (non-fiction) The Geography of Nowhere, The City in Mind: Notes on the Urban Condition, Home from Nowhere, The Long Emergency, and Too Much Magic: Wishful Thinking, Technology and the Fate of the Nation. His novels include World Made By Hand, The Witch of Hebron, Maggie Darling — A Modern Romance, The Halloween Ball, an Embarrassment of Riches, and many others. He has published three novellas with Water Street Press: Manhattan Gothic, A Christmas Orphan, and The Flight of Mehetabel.

808 Responses to “America the Horror Show” Subscribe

  1. kulturcritic* December 17, 2012 at 9:52 am #

    It is just hard to let go sometimes, James. Seasons Greetings from kulturCritic
    http://kulturcritic.wordpress.com/posts/the-risk-of-letting-go/

  2. Danmyshrall December 17, 2012 at 9:57 am #

    Christmas greetings from Vermont!

  3. TJ December 17, 2012 at 10:02 am #

    Thank You James. Words fail…except for yours.

  4. wardoc December 17, 2012 at 10:04 am #

    I suspect that before the ongoing collapse of amerika is over, events like that in Newtown or Collumbine will seem completely “normal,” and we will have habituated to their inherent horror.

  5. Desertrat December 17, 2012 at 10:04 am #

    Nonsense. It had nothing to do with how that kid was raised. And guns were merely the method, one among many possibilities.
    Our entire system for dealing with any form of mental illness is “plumb ruint”.
    An example of one soccer-mom’s problems:
    http://anarchistsoccermom.blogspot.com/2012/12/thinking-unthinkable.html
    It takes money, competent professionals, facilities and parental awareness.
    It’s a lot easier to avoid thinking, but instead blather about guns and parenting.

  6. sprezzatura December 17, 2012 at 10:06 am #

    America, you have all these guns. And you can’t protect your children.

  7. BeingThere December 17, 2012 at 10:07 am #

    Yes, JHK in other words
    We are truly in the realm of the “Forbidden Planet”.
    On another blog that talked about the Mayan Calender I said:
    We will pass through Dec. 21 without issue, since it’s just another manufactured human construct having nothing to do with anything outside the lively human imagination.
    That said we are in for our own dark age and it’s coming soon. That too is all too human. We are locked in place and we will go down.

  8. keny December 17, 2012 at 10:09 am #

    Jim–you are partially correct, like most of us. Another part of the problem is illustrated by the grinding, corrosive power of commerce. To read your column I must be exposed to the image of a buxom young woman wearing a T-shirt that reads “I pooped today”. It’s all for sale. And that is the overriding problem.

  9. ccm989 December 17, 2012 at 10:10 am #

    Mental illness has always existed since people have walked the Earth. There is always that kid who is a little “different” or not quite right in some vague way that no one can quite put their finger on. There is not enough money on the planet to cure every case of mental illness. And even if you treated each individual, how do you know when they’re cured? Maybe they’re just faking being better.
    According to our local police — “There is NOTHING you can do to stop a insane gunman from breaking into schools.” No amount of locks or fences can keep them out because they can blast away those defenses and then get inside to kill your child. Here is what we need to do – reinstate the ban on all Assault Weapons. No civilian needs this sort of weapon. This is NOT a political issue. Congress needs to postpone their Christmas break and reinstate the ban right now. Now is the time for action.
    Sadly this will not end all massacres but it will definitely reduce the number. And if we also decide to outlaw repairing those guns, which jam and break all the time, there will be less of them around. Also why not outlaw multi-bullet clips? The NRA is not the boss of us. No one elected the NRA. If you visit their web site you will see not one word about the Newtown Tragedy, not a whisper. Twenty adorable 1st graders and their 6 beloved teachers were slaughtered and the NRA could not even offer one word of sympathy.
    Your child or grandchild whether he/she is in high school or college or in 1st grade is at risk! Call your Congressmen today and tell them to REINSTATE THE BAN ON ASSAULT WEAPONS http://www.contactingthecongress.org/–

  10. upstater December 17, 2012 at 10:11 am #

    One has to wonder what sort of video games Adam Lanza was playing during his many, many hours of isolation. Loughner and Holmes were both avid, accomplished gamers. So are most drone “pilots”.
    Obama drops in for photo ops and crocodile tears, while doing a whole lot of nothing.
    What is particularly sickening is how mental illness is “treated” in this country. The system is totally fragmented, under-resourced and almost completely reliant on handing out pills from big pharma.
    A family with a mentally ill member is really completely on their own. One narrative:
    http://anarchistsoccermom.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/thinking-unthinkable.html

  11. Ozvaldo December 17, 2012 at 10:11 am #

    I wonder if either the boy or his mother were subscribers to this blog.

  12. steve December 17, 2012 at 10:11 am #

    Spot on, exactly spot on. This Arkansas sociologist could not have said it better and I’ve said it hundreds of times. There are no professionals or facilities that can make up for the loss of a functional family that includes a competent father. And there is no public policy that can bring that about. Mr. Kuntsler is absolutely correct. The die is cast and we now must find out the hard way what it means to destroy the basis of a society that works; especially one that works for the most vulnerable.

  13. asoka.. December 17, 2012 at 10:13 am #

    These things were called virtues. They are qualities in thought and action related to goodness and excellence, and they are in very short supply these days in the USA…
    ===========
    We are suffering from too many “male” values, too much machismo, and too many live in a state of anomie.
    What we need to cultivate are feminine values. We need more men who are unafraid to call themselves feminists. We need cultivation of tolerance and nurture to bring out our loving nature. More than simple nonviolence, we need a philosophy of ahimsa.
    Asoka dot dot, feminist.

  14. Smokyjoe December 17, 2012 at 10:14 am #

    JHK is right about the sick definition of what makes a man “male” in America today.
    In my experience, when you ask most rural folks who work on the land or at least close to it, they’ll tell you a gun is not a toy but a tool. The problems it solves are putting game in the freezer, shooting a “critter” that tears up the garden, and, God forbid, self-defense of one’s home or life. A bolt-action rifle or revolver can do those jobs just fine, in the hands of a trained shooter.
    Ask those who live in suburban or urban areas, however, and guns become either things to fear or things that make a man fearsome. Deplorable weapons like the Bushmaster .223 become just fashion statements for men lacking self-esteem or mesmerized by the cult of guns in movies and games.
    Then mix in the story-arcs of those entertainments, showing the gun as the means of solving most any conflicts and…you have the Auroras, Columbines, Virginia Techs, and Newtowns of our decayed culture.
    We won’t change the culture fast, but that is precisely what we need to change.

  15. 2_Happy_Town December 17, 2012 at 10:15 am #

    Ongoing attacks like this- http://morrowcountysentinel.com/2012/12/china-school-knife-attack-injures-22-children/ -in China, are perpetrated with large knives (another benefit of gun control). Wonder what psycho-political babble is necessary there to protect the children? While we are banning guns, howsabout banning some drug pushing corpo-docto-teacho-libbo-gangnam style solutions to all our problems. Best part of your world made by hand will be the end of pharma-gov.

  16. pedal pusher December 17, 2012 at 10:16 am #

    “It would be better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck and he cast into the sea, than he should harm one of these little ones.”
    Luke 17:2 KJV

  17. PRD December 17, 2012 at 10:19 am #

    Being a “Big Brother” (not the Orwellian kind, of course) to a fatherless boy could help with this.

  18. Poet December 17, 2012 at 10:20 am #

    The absence of an intact two-parent family which includes both biological parents of the children involved is also a factor in teh cultivation of “wild child” monster kids. Or in the case of an intact two-parent family, the involvement of BOTH biological parents in the lives of all their children. Parenting is a two person job which is why it takes two separate people of opposite genders to create a child.

    How many of the boys/men who have had or presently have similar problems the late Mr. Lanza have lived in identical or highly similar circumstances?

    Prevailing cultural masculine phobia aside, men are no more intended to be mere “sperm donors” or “bread winners” than women are intended to be mere “walking wombs” or “trained domestics” in the lives of the children they engender.

    Bearing and raising a child was never meant to be a life threatening experience or one accomplished in isolation from both parents and extended family connected with the child involved (all of whom need to be debriefed to determine what, if any, hereditary connection such behavior might have to the child’s biological paternal or maternal family).
    Of course none of this is happening or will happen. Gun control advocates will scream and mental health advocates will do likewise. The president’s PR flacks (“handlers” in Washingtonese)will be writing empty verbal platuitudes and in about 72 hours from now we will be distracted by the next infotainment event to bombard our senses.

    Hillary Clinton’s self-serving book title (which was self-serving because she spent most of her child’s life as either a “first lady” or corporate attorney sitting of various high-powered boards of directors and “outsourced” Chelsea’s rearing to others)to the contrary, it doesn’t “take a village” to raise a child, it takes “an intact and extended family” to do so.

  19. PRD December 17, 2012 at 10:25 am #

    Another problem with psychiatry in this country is that seeking mental health has among too many a stigma attached to it. Also, it’s expensive.
    Don’t dismiss medicine so quickly. Our minds are not just governed and able to be affected by language. The brain operates as a bioCHEMICAL organ.

  20. mountaingal December 17, 2012 at 10:27 am #

    While all of the things that you mention here Jim do play a real role in the disintegration of our culture, I’d guess that the plight of the mother blogging as “anarchist soccermom” is closer to the issue with the latest shooting and so many others. Mental illness is not well treated and we have many young kids and teens with a mental illness not receiving adequate care. Often they have wonderful families and “normal” siblings.
    It can be too easy to fall into the trap of pointing fingers and saying that this happened as the parents were divorced, but most kids growing up in homes with divorce DON’T shoot up the local school. And kids who grew up in intact families do in fact do heinous things. If we want to prevent such events from happening, we need more than gun control. We also need to be proactive in handling kids with obvious mental health issues before they turn into teens or adults willing and able to turn their anguish onto others.

  21. Rule62 December 17, 2012 at 10:29 am #

    Women are just as complicit as men in this mess of a culture. Women reward bad boy behavior, guess what, you get a bunch of bad boys.

  22. Hugh Culliton December 17, 2012 at 10:30 am #

    I’ll preface this by stating my bias up front: I’m a Canadian father, teacher, and gun collector. Folks can say that guns were only a tool in this debacle. Ted Nugent can rattle on about guns not killing, but the mind be hind the trigger being at fault. Various GOP politicians like that asshole Huckabee can say 6 year old babies were slaughtered because like some Aztec blood sacrifice, a superficial rite of his religion wasn’t honoured or that we need kindergarten teachers in full battle-rattle and armed to the teeth in the classrooms. It’s all BS. The facts on the ground are that this crime was committed with firearms easily accessible to a very sick person. America: vastly more of your citizens have been killed by firearms in the last decade than combat casualties in Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan combined. You need to get a grip on your 2nd Amendment because it’s killing the very citizens it’s supposed to protect. If you allow this tragic opportunity to slip by, the blood of the next Sandy Hook will be on your collective hands.

  23. RJGrones December 17, 2012 at 10:30 am #

    re: “..a tribulation that demands the reemergence of adult male humans who know how to be men in more than one dimension.” – Excellent. Great writing today. Imagining the level of a mind that never evolves far beyond the brain-stem fascination with comic book super hero movies and the BANG!BANG!BANG! of the local firing range..

  24. PRD December 17, 2012 at 10:30 am #

    Anyone noticed how these crazy mass shootings are always committed by white people? Yet fatherless households in the black community are epidemic. Crazy black males tend to commit their acts of violence against each other, rather than groups of anonymous schoolchildren or theater-goers.

  25. MDG December 17, 2012 at 10:32 am #

    Thank you, Keny. I had the exact same thought.

  26. empirestatebuilding December 17, 2012 at 10:34 am #

    Sadly this tragedy will soon be forgotten. This is a regular occurrence. The cost of doing business in a gun crazed paranoid, us vs. them country.
    Aimlow Joe was here
    http://www.aimlow.com

  27. tstreet December 17, 2012 at 10:35 am #

    We don’t see anything like this level of slaughter and ruin in Europe, last I checked. Look to Europe and Japan. Start there. Everything you say about America is true but I am not sure that it adequately explains this madness. Yes, the horse of mass gun ownership has left the barn. Talk about talking about solutions is empty rhetoric, including the usual empty speech from our President who does not have a clue as to what to do.

  28. zoidion December 17, 2012 at 10:39 am #

    Immediately upon hearing the headline—spoken by an insipid (male) “guest announcer” on the Duluth, MN, college radio station—I decided to avoid the horrific details of this latest mass crime. But I thank you, JHK, for your outrage and eloquence in describing the environment—physical, mental, emotional—that breeds such monsters. Some of those reading will be inspired to undertake/continue positive projects that involve reaching out to young men in search of a path.
    (In that vein, allow me to mention one in my part of Minneapolis that’s just inked a deal to buy/renovate a funky commercial building— http://neic.coop – some young men would be welcome to help by doing some manual labor involving more than just two thumbs.)
    On my way to Duluth, I took the back road (Hwy. 23) through some really hardscrabble villages. A couple days before the Newtown (rich symbolism in that name, eh?) massacre, I went past one central school “facility” a couple miles from the nearest town—designed with perpetual car and bus transport assumed, right?—and shuddered. The only commercial traffic visible was an occasional log hauler. The main industry is a federal pen.

  29. asoka: December 17, 2012 at 10:47 am #

    I make substantive posts, like quoting JHK from a 2000 post on Y2K to illustrate his penchant to forecast the worst, in a short time frame, even though his predictions always fail. That is what I want to discuss: JHK’s posts.
    You guys are hurling all kinds of things at me, about me, about my posts, impersonating me, cutting and pasting my posts, calling me names.
    I think JHK allows freedom on this blog because it illustrates how a clusterfuck happens. Each week the content of my comments is ignored. Each week it devolves into ad hominem attack.
    It’s enough to make me suspect there may be some racists here who are reacting to something other than content. Yes, I just “played the race card.”
    How else to explain the CFN penchant of attacking me every week while ignoring the substance of my arguments? (Some, like Mike Hunt, deny I even have the capacity to argue logically.)
    I do whatever I want. It’s called freedom. Deal with it.

  30. MrFreeze December 17, 2012 at 10:48 am #

    The Second Amendment sits on our national consciousness like a big giant, boil/pustule. Everyone knows that it’s origins come from a putrid mix of bile, unhealthy living, stress, paranoia and outright neglect. It’s a chronic problem that we scratch at, rub and squeeze until it gets irritated, grows and explodes with a gush of puss and blood. We can lance it over and over again and yet the result is the same…..A big giant scab forms; we cover it up; we continue to ignore the infection; we let it grow and fester and the whole process starts all over again……
    Just look at the outpouring of vitriolic anger, accusations, cruel ideological justifications, misinformation, hatred and frustration going on over the last several days. Innocents slaughtered in cold blood are quickly forgotten in favor of the “ratings” and ensuring that our “rights” are intact….This way we can continue ignore the reality of our situation: We have become a nation of imbeciles who haven’t got the strength or courage to admit to ourselves that we are sick; that we are infected with a misanthropy that defies all understanding. It’s eaten our soul away and the only real way Americans seem to be able to express themselves today is manifested in the form of violence, self-loathing and fear…….
    Over the last couple of days, my worst fears about us have been confirmed.

  31. Newfie December 17, 2012 at 10:49 am #

    In a society where gun violence in films, television, books, comics and video games is a form of mass entertainment for all ages, why is anyone surprised by the occasional mass killing ? Didn’t it strike anyone as ironic that the audience in Aurora were there to be entertained by depictions of violence on the silver screen when it suddenly erupted for real ? Being entertained by depictions of people being killed with guns is a symptom of a violent society. Bloodthirsty Romans enjoyed watching violence at their local coliseum. We watch it in our living rooms and public theatres. Are we much different from them ?

  32. LaughingAsRomeWasBurningDown December 17, 2012 at 10:49 am #

    Noble sentiment, but gun control is not happening. We’re all sad and shit about shot up dead kids and all, but if they wouldn’t consider it after Columbine, or Virginia Tech, or Aurora, or Gabby Giffords, then this too will pass, especially (full-on redneck sarcam mode on here) with Obama in office, THAT KENYAN MUSLIN SOCIALISTS JUST TRY TO TAKE YER GUNS AWAY!

  33. Treeman December 17, 2012 at 10:50 am #

    I suspect the continual portrayal of men as incompetents also contributes.
    Think of the awful disparity. Either you are a superhero assassin or you are so inept as to be unable to clean a sink without a woman’s assistance.
    Talk about extreme role models.
    I think Jim is correct in that a weapons ban would have little effect. With some 300 million weapons in circulation it’s pretty pointless.
    Even banning handguns as we did in the UK had little effect and they were already strictly licensed. The No1 in gun crime today in the UK is still the handgun. We still have had spree killers.
    I wish I had a solution or even effective words of comfort for the victims parents.and families, but I don’t.
    I can for see that there will be the usual round of backbiting political drama with politicians of all hues jockeying for maximum media coverage of their inane soundbites. Real solutions? Has anyone ever met a politician with real solutions to pretty much anything?

  34. asoka: December 17, 2012 at 10:51 am #

    One more thing about peak oil. CFN doomers ignore whatever tends to disprove the theory of oil supremacy.
    Thanks to new technologies and discoveries, North America is now awash in cheap natural gas. The fuel has already replaced oil as a petrochemical feedstock, home heating fuel and in electricity generation.
    Could it do the same for transportation, the primary reason oil remains dominant today? There are significant obstacles, but they’re not insurmountable.
    In Iran, for example, almost a quarter of vehicles run on natural gas. Pakistan is moving in the same direction. I ride frequently in taxis and buses powered by LNG in South America. Many CFN doomers simply want to ignore the implication: Natural gas is a potential substitute for oil in the transportation sector.

  35. Collapse Watch December 17, 2012 at 10:53 am #

    A better title would have been A Christmas Story 2.
    Did Hubbard do a graph fro Peak Mass Murder Shooting Sprees? If not, he should have. And one for Peak Peak, as well.

  36. ozone December 17, 2012 at 10:53 am #

    Jim,
    You write:
    “It’s not an accident that the commercial fantasies represented in movies and television aimed at boys are populated by legions of super-heroes. This sort of grandiosity — the wish to project supernatural powers — is exactly what you get in boys who have not developed competence in any reality-based, meaningful realm of endeavor — and I wouldn’t necessarily include school, such as it is in our time, as a reality-based, meaningful realm of endeavor, since it is mostly a brutally boring accreditation process. Notice, Mr. Lanza’s chief instrument of death was the “Bushmaster.” His weapon made him a “master” of something, at least, even if it was just the systematic slaughter of six-year-old kids and the women in charge of them.”
    I’m so glad you’ve addressed this in the stark terms that you do (along with the usual easily-gleaned “tone” via your inimitable style).
    What is it that we’d like to see as a fully developed and realized “man” anymore? I believe this to be all about individual respect. (Not the absolutely artificial “good job!” twaddle that is ludicrously and stupidly lavished on toddlers.) I’ve said it before, respect has to be deserved, and it also has to be withheld when it’s NOT deserved.
    A man should be known as a man when he can show some kind of skill that is beneficial to the common weal, and show that he’s worthy of his fellows’ RESPECT. (I think we inherently know what these are; if we don’t, then we haven’t the capacity or wit to “organize” any kind of society worth its’ name.)
    That last, about slaughtering first-graders and the women in charge of them is an expression of power, exercised by the powerless. (Rape and misogyny are also identically outwardly expressed versions of powerless rage.)
    Are authoritarians the ultimate in the emotionally infantile (or “unrealized”)? Maybe, I dunno, but this burning thirst to be part of a structure with omnipotence over others lives is certainly telling while at the same instance, a continuing puzzlement.
    Will that be the final political struggle of human vs. human? The realized vs. the infantile?
    Or will the lessons we seem incapable of learning be taught by other means?
    ” I think the greater tragedy is that we are past being able to teach ourselves how to act and now it is up to nature and history to provide the only kind of instruction we can understand.” -JHK
    More than likely, I suspect. Thanks for putting it so cogently, even though the prospects are far from “pleasant”.

  37. Phutatorius December 17, 2012 at 10:55 am #

    What do we ever learn about the medication status of such individuals? The rise in the use of SSRIs, SNRIs, and the “atypicals” roughly parallels the rise in these events. Does HIPPA protect the privacy rights of deceased mass killers? If so, HIPPA should be changed. If not, why is nobody looking into this? It was a good post today, Mr. K. I didn’t mean to take anything away from your own take on the situation, but only to add something that seems to get overlooked.
    -Phut

  38. progress4conserving December 17, 2012 at 10:56 am #

    “We live in physical surroundings that are the perfect growth medium for serial killers, mass murderers, psychopaths with no feeling, and sado-masochists preoccupied only with the ritual orchestration of their own shame and guilt in the service of inflicting pain.” -jhk-
    A very wise post, JHK, every word of it.
    It is unfortunate that our National Political Process is about to gear itself up and go off in the wrong direction, once again – spending emotions and willpower in futile pursuit of the unattainable goal of control of lethal weapons.
    If you are reading this and you are a parent –
    and your child has a TV or computer in their private bedroom –
    Please go home and move the thing PERMANENTLY into the family room or the kitchen – anywhere that is a “public” space in your home.
    Then, if you have a son, sit down next to him as he plays his favorite video game – now in that public area of your house. If you feel – even a twinge – of nausea at the violence or bloodiness of the game, realize that you are having a normal reaction. Then, PLEASE, somehow, try to get your kid to stop playing that game, permanently.
    =========================
    It would also be a good thing for our “leaders” to analyze our collective use of psychotropic meds, especially SSRI’s, especially on young males.
    Even if these drugs cause only one out of 10,000 young men to have suicidal or homicidal thoughts, well, that’s still a LOT of chemically induced homicidal maniacs walking around, just waiting for a triggering event.
    We will soon have a poster show up on CFN to argue that only *privileged* *white* *males* commit crimes of mass violence in the US.
    We need to consider that the only reason this “trend” exists is because this is the group that has the greatest access to prescribers of LEGAL medications, like those SSRI’s.

  39. Radu Voda December 17, 2012 at 10:57 am #

    Women have to stop throwing men out of their children’s lives – because that breeds monsters. After all, women give birth to babies, but men give birth to men. What can one say? The laws need to be changed so that divorce is no longer lucrative and even if gone through – the father still has full parental rights.
    Beyond that, the prozac type drugs are very dangerous and have lead to a vast increase in violence and suicide.
    Oh and as far media role models: all the new shows are for girls – where women routinely beat up men with ease. And yes, there are even grown women who believe this is real. So boys are left with video games. Feminists are outraged that girls are being left out of this important media… Girls also need to be initiated into cyber killing asap…

  40. Outpost of the Empire December 17, 2012 at 11:02 am #

    Like Hugh Culliton I live in an Outpost of the Empire where gun ownership is as high as many parts of the Empire itself. Yet gun deaths are on a per capita basis very low. Why? Less whackos? Better treatment oppurtunities? More placid culture? No to all of those! It lies in the fact that the type of gun available and the process involved in getting it are so so different from that of America. Rather than be labour you with the details readers could pretend you are a Canadian buying a gun and see for youself what type of gun you can buy and how you can get it and what is required of you when you after purchase for storeage and transportation.

  41. horseoutside December 17, 2012 at 11:05 am #

    How ’bout we just have all the Americans kill each other on Dec 21, and then, problem solved, sensible Canada can move down and take over.

  42. Loveandlight December 17, 2012 at 11:06 am #

    As long as we’re all playing armchair sociologists/ psychologists, I would venture that a big part of our problem as a society is that we lack balance in everything we do. Look up the Hermetic Law of Polarity.

  43. BIG BRUSH December 17, 2012 at 11:08 am #

    The Bushmaster 223 was found locked in Lanza’s car trunk , not fired by him , who do you think was also involved? Asking the right questions by concerned citizens will shine a light on the depth of depravity to which the controllers have sunk. Don’t let the emotional response dissuade you from confronting the basic failure of Men to lead and protect families from the pathology poisoning modern society .

  44. Collapse Watch December 17, 2012 at 11:08 am #

    Everyone’s feeling around in the dark for the answer, and there isn’t one. Nothing said thus far comes close to explaining any of this.

  45. Laura Louzader December 17, 2012 at 11:12 am #

    Keep in mind that, while this kid lived in a home headed by a “single mother”, that most of the perpetrators of mass shootings in the past decade have grown up in “intact” two parent homes.
    The common threads uniting all these cases were mental illness,the use of prescription psychotropic medications, and the combination of armories of high-powered weapons and volatile, troubled adolescent males- only one shooter of the 43 from the past 25 years has been a woman (from an intact home, by the way)
    Far be it from me to attack our frakkin’ precious 2nd Amendment rights, but anyone who keeps a veritable arsenal of high-powered guns in the same home with a troubled teen is asking for trouble.

  46. benlomand December 17, 2012 at 11:16 am #

    All this loss of family structure talk seems to me to be rooted in an economic system that demanded two bread winners, circa 1970. That it coincides with the flat lining of real wages and the meteoric rise of corporate profits cannot be ignored.
    The pressure on the modern family is evidenced by this dysfunction and juxtaposed by visions of “good old days,” the lure of the conservative mind. If only we….then list everything BUT corporate rape as the reason for our fall from grace.
    Our society has been manipulated by the God’s of money, harvested as Romney so eloquently stated once again, revealing is true inner rot.
    “We know the price of everything and the value of nothing,” I believe Wilde said. How true.
    Expect more pain America.

  47. Jack Waddington December 17, 2012 at 11:16 am #

    The problem goes all the way back to the Constitution. A constitution is a super law to override all other laws. The real reason for the 2nd amendment is totally hidden. The early colonials who stole the land from the Native American then created the 2nd amendment. It was set up to allow these colonials to have guns to shoot any Native American that came back with a bow and arrow, to shoot him … should he try. Of course it was cloaked in a different manner.
    Repeal the 2nd amendment and within 60 years these events will be seen for what they are. If you need a gun to defend yourself where do we stop … I suspect not until we allow us each to carry a nuclear bomb.
    Dumb dumber and dumbest.
    Jack

  48. Freedom Guerrilla December 17, 2012 at 11:19 am #

    Pretty much nailed it. Especially this:
    “the Newtown Massacre to me is largely about the failure of men in America, and in particular the failure of men to raise up male children into men.”
    But, as men — we have to own this. Fuck background checks, laws that don’t come close to addressing the core, or anything else designed for “change.” The change already came… what are we going to do about it? Pass a law that REALLY outlaws murdering children? Ok.
    The role of gov’t will be to flail about busily doing nothing while American men will have to regain ownership of our country — not with guns and/or snappy powerpoints or even clever advertisements during half time. We will have to do the unthinkable… get involved. The good news is that this will not require any electricity or prior registration.
    This is an opportunity to abandon dogma and proceed with an action plan. No action plan? This is your opportunity to form one. This means it’s time to slog into the uncomfortable mess of rescuing our boys off the streets of the United States of Purposelessness.
    If you are in a position of leadership in this country I challenge you to drive a spike through an Xbox. I challenge you to silence your cell phone forever. I challenge you to get intimately involved, and to actually care about something enough to opt out of the shittiness and fully embrace the rich burden of sentient humanity.
    Tommy out.

  49. Collapse Watch December 17, 2012 at 11:20 am #

    Correct. People do not ask questions, or the right questions. They just accept a carefully crafted story from corrupt institutions. The police chief who was in charge of the investigation at Columbine is a child rapist for Christ’s sake. He has no credibility and is easily compromised, and you expect that he would be on the up and up and tell the truth about that event? The facts presented in this case thus far do not add up. It’s one red flag after another, yet people will gobble up this predictable puke of a story every time. Why? Is it comforting to think of it in these terms? Yes, the perpetrators of this sick massacre were maniacs. Let’s find the cowards and root them out and bring them to Justice, if there is such a thing.
    Of course, if you want to conduct your own investigation of this matter because you don’t trust what you’re being spoon-fed by law enforcement and the media, you better watch your step. You just may be jailed and stifled.
    Police: Arrests possible for spreading false info on Facebook after shootings

  50. asoka.. December 17, 2012 at 11:24 am #

    Don’t dismiss medicine so quickly. Our minds are not just governed and able to be affected by language. The brain operates as a bioCHEMICAL organ.
    ————–
    Yes, but we can change our brain biochemistry without medicine.
    Our brain biochemistry changes with our changing beliefs and perceptions. Embracing feminine values and ahimsa, instead of living in anomie, will do it, as will meditation. Meditation changes brain chemistry by becoming aware of the gap in thought caled no-mind, which promotes mental health and changes the biochemistry of our body favorably.
    If you are chasing joy and peace all the time everywhere but exclaim exhausted, ‘Oh, it’s to be found nowhere!’, why not change your interpretation of NOWHERE to ‘NOW HERE’; just by introducing a gap, you change your awareness – and that changes your biochemistry in an instant!
    Everything exists as a ‘Matrix of pure possibilities’ akin to ‘formless’ molten wax or moldable soft clay. We shape them into anything we desire by choosing to do so, prompted by our beliefs.
    The awareness that we are part of ever-changing fields of energy that constantly interact with one another is what gives us the key to unlock the immense power within us. And it is our awareness of this awesome truth that changes everything. Then we transform ourselves from passive onlookers to powerful creators. We provide the script to write or re-write the code of our reality.
    SOURCES:
    Krummenacher P, Mohr C, Haker H, Brugger P. Dopamine, paranormal belief, and the detection of meaningful stimuli. J Cogn Neurosci. 2009 Jun 30.
    Flannelly KJ, Koenig HG, Galek K, Ellison CG. Beliefs, mental health, and evolutionary threat assessment systems in the brain. J Nerv Ment Dis. 2007;195:996–1003.
    BTW, these findings are scientifically validated, through carefully selected researched designs, and the findings have been published in peer-reviewed academic journals. In other words, our ability to change our brain biochemistry through intention is not New Age pap.

  51. Treeman December 17, 2012 at 11:28 am #

    Reports in the UK are saying that he used the bushmaster to murder the children and then shot himself with a handgun. Oh and that it was a shotgun locked in the car.
    There in itself is a warped piece of logic ” just off to massacre some kids but I don’t need the shotgun. Best lock the car, after all I wouldn’t want someone to steal it. They may hurt themselves with it!”
    How accurate the media is who knows? Intial reports claimed a second gunman and that a member of staff let them in.
    I think the MSM are pretty much making up whatever they want. Even here we have wall to wall coverage of it. I really feel for the families. The continual reexposure to the horror of it all must be horrific for them. The press are like hyenas circling a dying wilderbeest, their eyes shining with bloodlust and salivating at the thought of the corpse to feast upon.

  52. asoka: December 17, 2012 at 11:30 am #

    JHK should be thinking about the 2013 Forecast. I just reread the 2012 Forecast. JHK was wrong about a third party challenge in the election. I supported the Green Party, but it was never a serious threat to the duopoly. JHK was wrong about Europe collapsing, wrong about standard of living falling, wrong about a banking collapse, wrong about the 4,000 Dow, etc.
    INCREDIBLY JHK WAS WRONG ABOUT OUR OIL SUPPLY.
    2012 was our big chance for doom. We had Nostradamos, the psychics, the astrologers, the Mayans, the New Agers, and JHK all predicting doom.
    MAYBE IT IS “JUST AROUND THE CORNER” IN 2013? (wink wink)
    Nonetheless I am looking forward to reading the 2013 Forecast to know what will not happen in 2013.

  53. mika. December 17, 2012 at 11:31 am #

    I wonder how long it will be before the secret is out. How long before the slave population on the VATICAN plantation realize the truth of their existence. How long before they begin to see and understand history for what it is, are able to learn history’s hidden facts and discern the propaganda lies fed to them by the government mafia. How long before they see the web of connections between the destruction and genocide of “heretics”, the secret agencies and societies, the banks, the corporations, the rigged elections process, the rigged institutions, the lying media, the constant and unrelenting distractions — while ROME presses forward implementing its global agenda in the shadows.
    Open your heart. Open your eyes. Open your mind. Read:
    ANTONY SUTTON
    CARROLL QUIGLEY
    ERIC PHELPS
    EDWIN BLACK
    ==
    mika.
    ==

  54. Inquiring Mind December 17, 2012 at 11:31 am #

    Here is the TRUE cause of most of this violence. Pass this link around and make it go viral. Enlighten the people on who their enemies really are.
    This is excellent video. These are professionals who are within these very camps (psychiatrists, psychologists, physicians, pharmaceutical account managers, etc. etc.) shining the light of truth on the evil. This is contributing to the downfall of our country (they are taking this tack in order to disarm America and continue the totalitarian take over). I’m going to pass this on to all family, friends and associates (my whole address book). Please do the same. Let’s make this go viral. Americans need to know the true cause and effect for these horrific incidents of violence… and who our enemies truly are.
    The TRUE SOURCE of RANDOM & MASS SHOOTINGS and VIOLENCE






    Evil is difficult to confront. If we shut down the criminality in psychiatry, big pharma, FDA, etc. that would end most all of these violent incidents.
    Some other components of causalty: thanks to the Federal Reserve and our government’s fiscal policies (inflation) we now have parents that have to be two earner families and work evenings and weekends as well just to make ends meet = omitted parenting. Add to this the gratuitous violence poured into our childrens’ minds via hollywood films and videos, computer games, magazines and books = violence is cool, human life ain’t worth nothin’.

  55. Jimmy Drinkwater December 17, 2012 at 11:32 am #

    I had thought it bad enough that as a society we’d taken to bugger our own children, priests and football coaches make the big headlines but imagine the silent shame that goes unreported. Now the beast turns to slaughter. What is it called when a cannibal eats themself?

  56. MrFreeze December 17, 2012 at 11:37 am #

    But, but Outpost…….if Americans were “forced” to do anything you suggest, they would throw a collective temper tantrum because our “sacred 2nd Amendment.” How dare you question an American’s “god given right” to clutch whatever firearm he/she wants? (read as sarcasm).
    Look, Americans have an incredibly high tolerance for carnage..As we all write here, the NRA and gun enthusiasts are cooking up the notion that mass killings is a “mental illness” and all the “law abiding citizens” should be able to own as many guns of whatever power they want…..Never mind you will never hear them talk about what constitutes a “law abiding citizen” because as you know, we are all law abiding….until we’re not.

  57. stelmosfire December 17, 2012 at 11:46 am #

    JHK says “The net result is a nation that has turned men either into weaklings, fakes, or monsters.” I don’t approve of such wide ranging generalizations. I know lots of good men ( and women for that matter). This was mental illness, plain and simple. This troubled young man was probably on certain meds(Just a guess). Read the labels.
    Suicide Risk from Prozac taken right from the manufacturers website:
    Patients with Major Depressive Disorder (MDD), both adult and pediatric, may experience worsening of their depression and/or the emergence of suicidal ideation and behavior (suicidality) or unusual changes in behavior, whether or not they are taking antidepressant medications, and this risk may persist until significant remission occurs. Suicide is a known risk of depression and certain other psychiatric disorders, and these disorders themselves are the strongest predictors of suicide. There has been a long-standing concern, however, that antidepressants may have a role in inducing worsening of depression and the emergence of suicidality in certain patients during the early phases of treatment. Pooled analyses of short-term placebo-controlled trials of antidepressant drugs (SSRIs and others) showed that these drugs increase the risk of suicidal thinking and behavior (suicidality) in children, adolescents, and young adults (ages 18-24) with Major Depressive Disorder (MDD) and other psychiatric disorders.
    Big- Pharma has LOTS to do with these incidents.

  58. anti soak December 17, 2012 at 11:51 am #

    Is this the future?
    • L.A. County mass burial honors more than 1,600 unclaimed bodies …
    More than 1,600 unidentified, unclaimed remains buried in Boyle …
    latimesblogs.latimes.com/…/la-county-to-bury-unidentified-unclaime…
    Dec 5, 2012 – … claimed by family members in Los Angeles County will be buried in a … The ashes of more than 1,600 people who were never identified or …
    baldwinpark.patch.com/…/more-than-1600-were-buried-in-a-mass-gr…
    Dec 5, 2012 – Los Angeles County Cemetery. … http://baldwinpark.patch.com/articles/more-than-1600-were-buried-in-a-mass-grave/media_attachments/edit?
    Man pretends to be a woman, gets to play 2 more years!!!!
    SANTA CLARA, Calif. — The women’s basketball team at Mission College expected the bleachers to be full and the hecklers ready when its newest player made her home court debut.
    In the days leading up to the game, people had plenty to say about 6-foot-6-inch, 220-pound Gabrielle Ludwig, who joined the Lady Saints as a mid-season walk-on and became,
    according to advocates, the first transsexual to play college hoops as both a man and a woman.
    Coach Corey Cafferata worried the outside noise was getting to his players, particularly the 50-year-old Ludwig.
    A pair of ESPN radio hosts had laughed at her looks, referring to her as “it.” And online threats and anonymous calls prompted the two-year college to assign the Navy veteran of Operation Desert Storm a safer parking space next to the gym and two police guards.
    …………………………………………..

  59. danadel December 17, 2012 at 11:55 am #

    All of this talk about new laws and mental health care is, to me, just our usual way of saying and doing nothing. These are long term, merely possible solutions to a problem we need to fix RIGHT NOW. I have kids in school, and this morning I have already driven to that school and checked to make sure they had an armed police offer there (they did). I have told the school secretaries that they must demand permanent police protection…image, two tiny sixty year old women behind a glass door as the front line of defense! I have visited the police department and called the school district to get these bureaucrats to get serious about security at school. I am organizing a parent watch group so parents can take turns watching for trouble in the parking lot and grounds.
    People, I am a 50-year-old mom with no guns. Do I want my kids to live with gun-toting officers in school? Do I want to walk around the school parking lot instead of doing my work. Not really, but there is no alternative! We have to stand up an protect our kids and our teachers from crazies with guns right now, today. We have to do it by putting our own bodies and minds out there. That is what is meant by the virtue JHK so wisely talks about. It’s a physical, real presence. It’s not sitting around asking for some new laws…sometime…maybe next year, while the bodies pile up.
    I know I should have done all this sooner. But I am doing it now, today.

  60. asoka.. December 17, 2012 at 11:56 am #

    spending emotions and willpower in futile pursuit of the unattainable goal of control of lethal weapons.
    ==============
    Let’s look at the logic of your argument:
    1) gun control is a futile pursuit
    2) even with gun control massacres will continue (eliminating all massacres is an “unobtainable goal”)
    ipso facto
    3) don’t waste emotions and willpower on passing gun control laws; they do not work
    Neat argument! Let’s apply it to traffic control.
    1) control of speeding is a futile pursuit
    2) even with speed limits, speeders will continue to break the law. Eliminating all speeding is an “unobtainable goal”
    ipso facto
    3) let’s eliminate traffic laws that limit speed; they do not work.
    Do you see the illogic in opposing any type of gun control?
    For example, we need control of assault weapons, not because that will eliminate all massacres, but because it will diminish the number of massacres and save lives, just as speed laws do not eliminate all speeding, but they diminish the number of speeders and save lives.

  61. Sam F December 17, 2012 at 11:56 am #

    The 5000 pound elephant in the room is this…
    The mother of this completely crazy person kept all of those guns and assault weapons within easy reach of a son she knew was surely troubled.
    Poor judgement on steroids if you ask me… All part and parcel of an American society of fruitcakes and humans totally unaware of the word “consequences”…

  62. anti soak December 17, 2012 at 11:57 am #

    If we are to talk in terms of race and gender, most
    killers are from the 3%, young Black Males.
    3% of USA, doing most of the killings.
    Are there more mass murderers here or in Africa?
    Africa has a population 3x that of USA.

  63. ozone December 17, 2012 at 12:02 pm #

    RT,
    Remember that you raised your kids to be respectful and deserving of respect in turn. IMO, this greatly reduces the possibility that they should “need” psychotropic medication in the first place.
    (Not to pooh-pooh your pointing out the dangers of med.s at all! Something to be factored-in, most certainly.)

  64. anti soak December 17, 2012 at 12:03 pm #

    She and her son were a lot alike.

  65. asoka.. December 17, 2012 at 12:05 pm #

    Man pretends to be a woman…
    ============
    Do you know anything about transsexuals?
    The word “pretends” is inappropriate and offensive.

  66. progress4conserving December 17, 2012 at 12:06 pm #

    reread my post
    your response has nothing to do with what I said

  67. anti soak December 17, 2012 at 12:07 pm #

    Tom Cruises new movie was to be released now
    but the studios are holding off.
    Radio says early on this new ‘epic’ there
    is a random sniper attack!!!
    They held off ‘out of respect’.

  68. Zev Paiss December 17, 2012 at 12:09 pm #

    The most recent weekend massacre highlights the total failure of so many things. It is going to be a challenging ride moving forward.
    I ask this… What does a 75-year-old wise female Governor, a secretly smuggled bar of chocolate, and messages from a distant civilization have in common?
    Grab your copy of “From Here to There: A Story of America’s Future and find out.
    http://www.fromhere-tothere.org

  69. ovplowx954 December 17, 2012 at 12:10 pm #

    fred perry pas cher

    Paris L’Oreal microseismic massage Brightening Eye Cream

  70. Michael Rothman December 17, 2012 at 12:11 pm #

    What is the difference between Asperger’s Syndrome in Lanza and Anti-Social Personality Disorder in Mozilo? It’s just a matter of years. CEOs are rewarded for being sociopaths.

  71. hardyharr December 17, 2012 at 12:13 pm #

    The 5000 pound elephant in the room is this…
    The mother of this completely crazy person kept all of those guns and assault weapons within easy reach of a son she knew was surely troubled.
    Poor judgement on steroids if you ask me… All part and parcel of an American society of fruitcakes and humans totally unaware of the word “consequences”…

    Yep, this woman is definietly to blame, according to news stories she even told babysitters to never let him out of their sight. Like, she didn’t know her own son was a freakazoid?
    “Hmm, I’ll keep guns around, several of them, where my anti-social extremely mentally ill son who’s “brilliant” [egads, how many times have we heard this one before?] will not find them/figure out how to find them”
    I used to tell my kids, when they were in high school, to make friends with the ostracized teens who didn’t have the social skills to get to know others their age. These outcasts are dying inside for the milk of human recognition, and wish utterly to be included. Never recognize and include them, and you produce unutterable rage that makes itself known one way or t’other. Rage is never destroyed, it will vent in some fashion.
    Goddam stupid ass mother, and absolutely her fault, if you axe me, along with goddam stupid ass father who knew just as well that he had a brewing holocaust on his hands.
    Gleep

  72. harrykrebs December 17, 2012 at 12:16 pm #

    TGIM. Alcohol and other drugs are certainly significant contributers. Notice the lack of addressing that issue in MSM. Bad for business.

  73. J Lee December 17, 2012 at 12:18 pm #

    Move along. Nothing to see here. The president even had a tear or two so it’s all solved now. He was so touched by the whole thing that we all know now what we didn’t before. Isn’t that the solution? A tear or two from our Fearless Flappylipped Leader! Think of all he has accomplished in the last four years just flapping his lips. Ain’t America great!

  74. stelmosfire December 17, 2012 at 12:22 pm #

    hi Anti, I don’t get your question. Surely there are many times more mass murders in Africa than the USA. There must be hundreds. Only they call it tribal conflict and it is way under reported. Sure they have too many guns (AK47s)but they also have RPGs, machetes, knives and axes. They really do get up close and personnel. To me it is beyond comprehension, just as this BS in CT is. The genie is out of the bottle and it ain’t goin’ back in.
    How is this for a sick F. No wonder the native Americans don’t like us.
    “British North America Governor General Jeffrey Amherst supported plans of distributing smallpox-infested blankets to First Nations people.”

  75. Whomeesa December 17, 2012 at 12:23 pm #

    mene, mene, tekel upharsim

  76. asoka.. December 17, 2012 at 12:23 pm #

    It is unfortunate that our National Political Process is about to gear itself up and go off in the wrong direction, once again – spending emotions and willpower in futile pursuit of the unattainable goal of control of lethal weapons.
    In other words, don’t waste time trying to pass gun control laws.
    My post comparing gun control and speed limit laws was directly relevant to what you are saying. Just because 100% prevention is an “unattainable goal” does not mean the laws should not be passed and enforced.

  77. ozone December 17, 2012 at 12:24 pm #

    There again, it’s (at its’ core) all about power and how it’s wielded, no?
    Reward aggression too lavishly, and your whole social structure will eventually be based upon it. Take a look around and see what’s “valued”.
    The FUSA is no longer a sovereign nation, it’s a spectacle of acquisitive madness, disenfranchisement and alienation. The anti-hero is now [correctly] king.

  78. RyeBeachBum December 17, 2012 at 12:28 pm #

    Jim you so nailed it, the youth are disintegrating along with the society. Well armed; and trained to kill with out empathy by video games.
    There is something vastly wrong with this country, there are so many guns out there, and any hint of gun control would actually put a large amount of weapons out there as people try to beat the ban. But is is beyond weapons, it is also a mental health issue.
    BTW Interesting that in today’s opening Rush Limbaugh said that we are witnessing the collapse and implosion of America, based largely on a lack of values. Which are something like virtues.

  79. Collapse Watch December 17, 2012 at 12:28 pm #

    The name Bushmaster should be changed to Waxedmaster. Bushes are so yesterday. Sure, they’re missed by the purists amongst us, but they’re no longer in style.
    I Like A Big Bush

  80. LaughingAsRomeWasBurningDown December 17, 2012 at 12:29 pm #

    Just saw where the Westboro Baptist Church is going to be protesting at kid’s funerals in Newtown. Nicely played.

  81. Phutatorius December 17, 2012 at 12:29 pm #

    Thank you for posting that warning label. Not the least remarkable thing about these events is that everybody gets to mount their favorite hobbyhorse and go for a little gallop. I guess St. Elmo and I share the same hobbyhorse.
    -Phut

  82. RyeBeachBum December 17, 2012 at 12:38 pm #

    According to the UK Mail In addition to buying guns and ammo,
    The mother of Newtown school massacre gunman Adam Lanza was a survivalist who was stockpiling food because she thought the world economy was on the verge of collapse.
    Nancy Lanza began hoarding food and water because she feared that the ongoing financial crisis was going to bring about the end of civilized society.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2248983/Connecticut-school-shooting-Adam-Lanzas-survivalist-mother-obsessed-guns.html#ixzz2FKbWKaxU
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
    Gunman’s ‘survivalist’ mother was OBSESSED with guns and stockpiled supplies as she planned for economic collapse
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2248983/Connecticut-school-shooting-Adam-Lanzas-survivalist-mother-obsessed-guns.html#ixzz2FKbDoBLF

  83. Collapse Watch December 17, 2012 at 12:38 pm #

    Just saw where the Westboro Baptist Church is going to be protesting at kid’s funerals in Newtown. Nicely played.

    Is this an appropriate response to that?
    Anonymous Hacks The Westboro Baptist Church: Posts All Their Personal Information

  84. hardyharr December 17, 2012 at 12:39 pm #

    This just in, the President has outlined a new plan to prevent this type of violence. From his speech, being read right now….
    “…to ensure the safety of all of our children, our most precious asset, whether black or white, Asian or Hispanic, whether they live in low-income neighborhoods or move among the affluent of our great society. Effectively immediately, I have instructed the Congress to create a new Federal School Protector workforce consisting of 100,000 new security guards, who will be stationed at schools throughout our proud nation. In addition, I have submitted a plan to increase background checks for persons purchasing firearms, institute a one-mile no-gun radius around all public schools, and make penalties for firearms-related crimes more severe and costly to those who would threaten our children, society’s most precious group. Finally, I have instructed the Mental Health Taskforce to submit a plan to put into place mandatory mental health screening and medication regimes for all of our public school students.”
    Fucking LOSER country, no one will stand up and call the whore single ‘moms’ and bastard ‘fathers’ by their right name – TRASH that produces lots of GARBAGE kids.
    Won’t it be grandiose to see the fat-waisted, size 52 TSA-style employees guarding all public schools? With their 9th-grade average education level, and if you look at them askew while they scan Tommmy’s backpack they’ll taser your 10-year old before heading off for a lunch of McShit and donuts. But they got theirs, doncha know? Why should they give a fuck?
    Cry the once beloved country.
    Gleep

  85. LaughingAsRomeWasBurningDown December 17, 2012 at 12:44 pm #

    She was a Doomer? Crazy is as crazy does, I guess.

  86. asoka.. December 17, 2012 at 12:45 pm #

    USA culture does not teach ahimsa. Children can go through grade school, middle school, high school, college, and graduate school without ever being taught anything about sarvodaya or the art of meditation.
    On the contrary, violence is glorified.
    People who go into in ARMED forces, and receive training in how to kill others are told “thank you for your “service.” They have parades for them. Materialism and scientism are the predominant paradigms of the age.
    I’m not surprised massacres result from that mix of values. We need to eliminate the USA military and eliminate the USA CIA. Then take the money we spend on them to create employment, fund mental health services, and cultivate a culture of ahimsa.

  87. Collapse Watch December 17, 2012 at 12:46 pm #

    The Daily Mail is not to be trusted.
    Hardyharr, that is disturbing. Ready-made….just waiting for an event like this. More kids on SSRIs. Every solution favors corporate revenue streams and profits. How convenient. And notice no gun control. The gun industry is Too Big To Fail. Corporations love BHO. He never lets them down.

  88. Piper Michael December 17, 2012 at 12:47 pm #

    Most excellent commentary this morning James.
    But you left out the reason why men have become laughing stocks, pansies and pussies, as this youngest generation has lost all touch with reality and consequences.
    The answer to the question lies in the fact that most of them, after viewing the real life consequences of their heinous reality show, immediately execute self judgment. Much like criminals that are driven to confess once captured, their very inner core being demands it, guilt is a powerful force.
    But does this guilt come from within or without, that is the question, and the religions of men are no help in their vacuous defense of mystery, while politicians make things worse in their vapid and feckless pursuit of agendas.
    We sewed the wind and now reap the whirlwind, as the darkness thickens throughout our little solar bubble of spacetime, and we consigned the Creator to the outhouse of our minds because we became too sophisticated and resent religion telling us how to live. We evolved beyond the religious hypocrites and outgrew the rantings of two thousand year old mysteries, as the truth of Einstein’s Aether now pushes in on our minds, and our animal souls will intensify, while religion vomits out the Universe is a great mystery that no man can comprehend, which causes the evolved to turn away from God because of the vapid mixings of mens nonsense with the simple revelation of the Light bringer, which was burned and the Heretical philosophers too, leaving a trail of blood for over a thousand years, thus the church and the states are the responsible parties in this Kabuki theater of the damned.
    The State took the rod of correction, and the knowledge of consequences away from parents and now the resulting Godless culture turns away from its institutions and is absorbed in the memes of gangstas and the idea that virtual violence without consequence is an escape mechanism, until it escapes back into reality, and karma bites us all in the ass.
    We are all victims in this Kabuki theater of the damned, as the left does perpetual battle with the right, religion and science fight each other to the death for the control of minds and hearts, and we are all left in division, confusion, in a Kabuki land of mysteries and lies.
    See the truth of the Unified Field of Creation, and understand, everything is about Cause and Effect, not the Crime and Punishment Universe, and we are our own worst judge. That as long as a Mystery of God, competes with a Godless Universe, man is left with nowhere to turn for answers of the soul.
    http://pipermichael.wordpress.com

  89. LaughingAsRomeWasBurningDown December 17, 2012 at 12:48 pm #

    Appropriate response? As far as I am concerned, yes, free speech ends with yelling “fire” and picketing your children’s funerals. And didn’t someone just post something about law of polarity? Karma? Something like that.

  90. Newfie December 17, 2012 at 12:50 pm #

    A movie about random sniper attacks… Well… Won’t that be “entertaining”… I can just imagine a theatre full of people being entertained by super realistic depictions of gun violence, bullets whizzing, peoples heads being blown off, guts, gore and blood splattered everywhere, in super realism… and the patrons munching on fresh buttered popcorn, staring in rapt attention… What kind of a nuthouse are we living in ? Violence as mass entertainment. Hello ???

  91. George December 17, 2012 at 12:54 pm #

    Has anyone else noticed that the tool used by these mentally defective “monsters,” to solve their problems, is the very same tool used by the “heroes” of this nation to solve all of its problems, from the “problem” of sea lions eating “our salmon”, and wolves eating “our cattle”, to Arabs camping out on top of “our oil” ?

  92. anti soak December 17, 2012 at 12:57 pm #

    The mother of Newtown school massacre gunman Adam Lanza was a survivalist who was stockpiling food because she thought the world economy was on the verge of collapse
    A broken clock is right twice a day.
    The world economy can only collapse.
    Had she seen her son more clearly, she would have run!

  93. Doc Holliday December 17, 2012 at 1:02 pm #

    The news cycle will continue until another crisis comes along to divert public attention.
    Then America will forget, again.
    What was the name of that college in Virginia?
    Where was that church shooting? Was that last year or the year before?
    Meanwhile the NRA and Pepe Le Putrid are silent for the moment. Probably in emergency meetings with gun manufactures on how to limit the economic impact. And the American Gun Owners Assoc. is calling for armed teachers, probably calculating how many guns could be sold to public schools. Should teachers be encouraged to have guns with 30 round clips?
    In a few days when all the little children are buried, it will be back to football and reality tv for America. It was just another tv show, until it happens again, and again.
    Happy Hollidays

  94. asoka.. December 17, 2012 at 1:02 pm #

    What kind of a nuthouse are we living in ? Violence as mass entertainment. Hello ???
    ============
    When Bush decided to attack Iraq, and the bombing of Baghdad started, were you watching on TV?
    Did you weep for the innocent children who died from USA bombs in Iraq and now in Afghanistan? Did you call for Bush to be impeached? Are you now calling for both Bush and Obama to be tried as war criminals in an international court of law?
    I don’t think either Bush or Obama should be allowed to get away with mass murder. They should both be in prison, along with Rumsfeld, Cheney, Petraeus, etc.

  95. Collapse Watch December 17, 2012 at 1:02 pm #

    free speech ends with yelling “fire”

    By virtue (haha) of that, Anonymous should hack this website and all others yelling “fire,” right? Isn’t yelling “Collapse” the same thing as yelling “fire?” Who gets to make these choices of what is considered yelling fire and what isn’t? Who gets to determine what is hate speech and what isn’t? How can you perform a reasonableness test when the point of this post is that there is no reasonableness? Hackers do not practice Ahimsa. They seek to do harm, and in that sense, they are not non-violent, but instead are malevolent dirt bags just as all those who seek to do harm are.

  96. RyeBeachBum December 17, 2012 at 1:09 pm #

    Being a doomer will soon be considered enough of a mental illness to prevent gun ownership. She screwed up, not in her view of the coming collapse, but in not properly securing her weapons.
    The fact is that things are getting crazy out there. Here in north central Florida there are armed guards (Sheriff Deputies) in Middle and High schools, but not Grade schools, which indicates that they are not there to protect the students from intruders, but the staff and faculty from the students.

  97. acerbas December 17, 2012 at 1:13 pm #

    In his superb book They Fuck You Up http://tinyurl.com/244ch6t British psychiatrist Oliver James makes some excellent suggestions such as having every child psychologically evaluated at age 16 and making sure that those at risk receive appropriate treatment, which for most, in his opinion, would consist at least of a 12 week course of Cognitive Analytic therapy.
    IMO, every school system should be required to have a qualified mental health professional on staff for, say, every 300 children with the aim of identifying those kids in trouble and seeing that they receive the help they need.
    Obviously, neither of these suggestions will ever be implemented because this country does not have the money to spare because we need to spend trillions of dollars to bail out the banksters and make sure they get their multi-million dollar bonuses.
    Is this a great country, or what?

  98. endofworld December 17, 2012 at 1:19 pm #

    22 childrem die on average every day in the U.S.in car crashes-5000 are injured a week-650 adults die every week in car crashes–outlaw,ban autos-people can’t drive-over 6 million wrecks a year-leave the roads to trucks,buses-who cares if truckers crash-they probably never will if no cars to mess them up and twinkies(oops) will make it to the store on time!

  99. Neon Vincent December 17, 2012 at 1:28 pm #

    I knew you’d write about Sandy Hook. I should have expected you’d have used it to write about, not just the innate violence of American culture, but also two of your other favorite topics, the failure of masculinity and the horrors of the built environment.
    I blogged about the mass shooting too, but in the context of a bill that was passed in Michigan the night before to allow concealed carry in schools. Governor Snyder may do to that what he failed to do to Right to Work for Less, veto it. Speaking of RTWFL, it did hold up a mass transit district for metro Detroit, but only for a few days. And, yes, I finally wrote about that, too. I also blogged about climate, energy, and space, including the price of gas reaching its low for the year. That wasn’t enough to keep me from being generally disgusted at the week’s news, so I threw in Grumpy Cat for good measure.
    Happy Motoring–for now–from Detroit!
    http://crazyeddiethemotie.blogspot.com/

  100. asoka.. December 17, 2012 at 1:31 pm #

    I took the vow of ahimsa before computers existed, years before I received my induction notice from the USA Armed Forces. I went to the induction center. In front of a room full of recruits I asked the sergeant a question, in a loud voice so all could hear, “Sir, what if you don’t want to go to Vietnam and kill Vietnamese, sir?”
    They immediately separated me from the other recruits, interviewed me to find out I was a conscientious objector, and then threw me out of the induction center. I was drafted into two years of alternative service in a hospital with wounded soldiers. I have seen what war does to young men. War is not healthy for human beings or other living things. Participation is optional. Dying is not optional. We are all going to die. Killing is optional. No one need take another’s life, not even for “self-defense.”

  101. ront December 17, 2012 at 1:35 pm #

    I disagree with what I think you are suggesting, Desertarat. I feel that this, although not the whole story, is more accurate:
    “We live in physical (allow me to add spiritually-morally lacking) surroundings that are the perfect growth medium for serial killers, mass murderers, psychopaths with no feeling, and sado-masochists preoccupied only with the ritual orchestration of their own shame and guilt in the service of inflicting pain.”
    Our worldview has virtually tuned things upside down with what her considered virtues now thought of as naive, foolish, or whacky by the cynically-minded, who, also, see the vices of my youth as virtues: greed, pride, lust, anger, envy. If you look closely you can see how Madison Avenue messages sell this worldview in order to sell their client’s shit to those who would be better off without it.
    The tribulation will serve to turn the “world” right side up. Hang on to the meaningful and the practical, and let the hell go of the delusional. Maybe you have time before the “shift hits the fan” to figure out which is which. Some clarity will prove useful during the chaos and confusion.

  102. bigpete007 December 17, 2012 at 1:40 pm #

    I am so fucking sick of the talking heads and even our fearless leader who have to always, after every damn tragedy, spin the story like a sweet Mr Softee ice cream cone with a whirling dervish topping, with those soap opera tales of heroism, bravery and acts of courage. Makes me wanna puke not because those things occur. I’m sure in that instance I would have done the same if I could have. I am not devoid of humanity and affect after all and I love children. But the whole media panoply is geared towards juicing the story because you know everyone loves a happy hopeful Hollywood ending. What fucking bullshit JIM! So we can all still feel good about ourselves in the end. Why can’t the media just let us sit with our emotions? What’s wrong with encouraging people to reflect and do some soul searching? God forbid the American spirit and intellect should veer from the endless cattle-cade of consumerism and it’s own deluded childish self image. I’m disgusted and I’m not afraid of refraining from the faux hopeful anthemic bittersweet cheer racing across the nation just in time for the holidays.

  103. jhkidd53 December 17, 2012 at 1:40 pm #

    Maybe someone should ask the post office what they did, I don’t hear of any mass killings at post offices anymore. Actually if the school had had a public resource officer (policeman) in the school this would probably have not happened. It would serve as a deterrant. These kind of things just did’nt happen when I was growing up (nearly sixty) and I believe that those video games that depict violence and killing are to share some of the blame as well as the garbadge that passes for entertainment coming out of Hollywood. Just my two cents worth from Arkansas, and yes we are knee deep in NASCAR Bubba’s and cheese doodles.

  104. KT December 17, 2012 at 1:44 pm #

    The kid would have been troubled even if his town had been built on a grid.
    That said, if things had been different in his immediate world, and our larger one, the Newtown tragedy might not have happened.
    It wasn’t just Adam Lanza keeping his distance from others .. Lots of people seemed like they were more interested in fantasy than reality … Maybe because the reality was so daunting.
    Many of us soldier on with what life has given us and with the choices we have made. Maybe our problems aren’t so grim. Or maybe we don’t have the financial resources to think we can escape them. Or maybe we even realize that the right track is the one most grounded in, as you would say Jim, the actual circumstances of our lives.
    May we return to a time when we — as children, parents, individuals, nations — don’t run from responsibility. You are right, Jim. Too much “magic” may be causing our downfall. Can we escape from fantasyland?

  105. debt December 17, 2012 at 1:46 pm #

    It’s the over prescription of meds which is being perpetrated on our children that is primary here.
    Lots of money being made by the drug companies.
    Adam Lanza was just one of the “side effects”.

  106. asoka.. December 17, 2012 at 1:48 pm #

    I am so fucking sick of the talking heads and even our fearless leader who have to always, after every damn tragedy, spin the story like a sweet Mr Softee ice cream cone with a whirling dervish topping
    ============
    So, instead of crying, what if the President went to play golf in Hawaii? Fox News would immediately call the President insensitive, uncaring, and unfit to be President, even though he won the electoral vote and the popular vote and has the support of the majority of the American people.

  107. k-dog December 17, 2012 at 1:56 pm #

    For what it’s worth, the Newtown Massacre to me is largely about the failure of men in America, and in particular the failure of men to raise up male children into men.

    It is odd and curious that little talk of the demon seed’s father has occurred. His name is Peter and:
    “Hours after the shooting Friday, a reporter with the Stamford Advocate found Peter Lanza as he pulled his blue Mini Cooper into his driveway in Stamford, Connecticut.
    Peter Lanza was apparently unaware that his son was behind the school massacre and his ex-wife had been killed, the newspaper reported.”

    Placing the brother in handcuffs and hauling him off for questioning was not a good move. Was the same done with the father? If so we have imported more than ‘stuff’ from China.

    And you who make it through to the other side will barely comprehend the monsters left behind, or how they made themselves that way.

    Perhaps when the death of this sick culture occurs it can happen Russian style. A murderer there is executed and all trace of their existence is erased. The world is changed and it appears like they never existed. The body is cremated and personal effects destroyed.
    But not so here. A freak like Lanza is worshiped. Made for TV specials will bathe impotent masses in blue light from coast to coast. A range of emotions will be cleverly choreographed into the shows. All who watch will share in the illusion of concern until the show ends and all return to empty meaningless lives waiting for another to snap with the zeitgeist.

  108. asoka.. December 17, 2012 at 2:02 pm #

    There is far TOO MUCH MAGIC related to firearms.
    The magical and romantic belief is that violence is a solution, or a protection. Not so.
    The reality is that unarmed people get killed and armed people get killed.
    Today two police officers were killed in Kansas. Police officers are armed, and trained in the use of firearms, and police get killed all the time.
    Lock and load is a false magical mantra. Firearms are no guarantee of protection.

  109. ront December 17, 2012 at 2:10 pm #

    SmokeyJoe, there are a variety of deadly, cultural coattails, as you and JHK describe, being mixed and then swallowed by impressionable young (and slow-to-mature) minds. Many of these minds are able to discern the healthy from the sick, others not so much.
    We will never be free of life’s challenges, for without them we would never become truly free. However, I don’t think we are doomed, per se, there is always something we can do to improve the situation, even if it is an adjustment to how we think about it. In fact that may be the first and foremost thing to do.

  110. ubs December 17, 2012 at 2:13 pm #

    Here is a summary of the various shooting incidents and the drugs the shooters were on: http://youtu.be/UhO0Pul_FcE
    If Obama was serious about protecting children, he would outlaw psychotropic drugs.

  111. bigpete007 December 17, 2012 at 2:13 pm #

    Fine. And you’re comment about the spinning talking heads? What’s their excuse? I just think all that “hope” that they sell is so “off the shelf” as to be useless at this point. I personally liked the president’s remarks in general and found him sincere. But the whole bit about “hope and courage” and blah blah blah is so played out. They’re just words and nothing changes. Six months from now we’ll hear it all over again after another tragedy.

  112. RyeBeachBum December 17, 2012 at 2:15 pm #

    I went to school in the city of Baltimore in the 1960s, even while the city was burning down around us, the schools were safe there were no security guards armed or other wise, just some administrators and teachers and counselors to keep things under control, in fact the only people that I remember having weapons (including guns) were the students.

  113. k-dog December 17, 2012 at 2:18 pm #

    EXCLUSIVE: Gunman’s ‘survivalist’ mother was OBSESSED with guns and stockpiled supplies as she planned for economic collapse before son shot her in the face while she lay in bed
    There may be a clusterfuck connection in this mess or the mother may have been a nut job believing in the Mayan prophesy. Time will tell.

  114. cogdis December 17, 2012 at 2:32 pm #

    What a fail of a post today. Rushing to judge while the media continues to broadcast any crumb of “news”. Indicting all men in the US simplifies the tragedy for the purposes of a few-hundred-word blog but does nothing to come to terms with the horror of this shooter’s mental illness. The roles of guns and parenting are second players. Men in China use knives. Kunstler is disingenuous for the purposes of sticking with his own doomer narrative.

  115. turkleton December 17, 2012 at 2:33 pm #

    I’d identify the following contributing factors to these incidents.
    1) The easy availability of semi-automatic assault weapons with large clips and handguns, both of which are specifically designed for killing or wounding other people, rather than other purposes that firearms can fulfill, such as hunting. These weapons can be obtained legally from a shop or gun show or illegally out of the trunk of someone’s car, or (in this last case) mom’s closet.
    2) A media landscape in which horrific violence without real consequences is the order of the day, including heroes who use guns to successfully solve their problems. By comparison, nudity and any kind of sexual activity is arbitrarily and strictly censored in mainstream media, creating a kind of harsh, virtual world of pure unadulterated violence. People who are mentally stable can separate these media fantasies from reality, but those who are immature or perhaps have some kind of mental illness may have a hard time doing so.
    3) Connected to #2, video games in which mass, constant violence using firearms glorifies violence and shows none of the human impact it causes. These also provide a type of training for the killers. For instance, the army has released its own FPS games to train soldiers and innoculate them to killing.
    4) A lack of easy access to mental health care, though this may be changing. A good therapist is upwards of $100 / hour, and this has generally not been available to everyone.
    5) A failure to provide security for vulnerable places such as schools. Now, I don’t advocate that there be police at every grammar school, but the stark reality of the situation is that because guns are so easily available in the US, some kind of security would be a reasonable way to possibility ameleriorate these incidents. Notice how many of these cops playing dress up showed up after the fact in this case, wearing their green fatigues and carrying their rifles? What if a few of them had been sitting outside this school instead of in their offices? The shooter would likely have not been able to do what he did.
    6) A lack of socialization in some younger males and a dearth of role models that are not violent. If you ask young men about their favorite movies, nearly all will end up being violence fantasies.
    7) A gun culture in the US that is based upon fear, mythology, and intransigent interpretation of archaic laws. The fear of attacking criminals, especially home invasions, which is almost a complete myth for people living in the suburbs, is used to drive people to buy multiple firearms for “protection” and “defense,” when said weapons are more likely to be used on family or friends, possibly accidentally. The interpretation of the 2nd amendment, written at a time when firearms were single fire, inaccurate, and took a long time to reload, has not kept pace with the spray and pray death machines that have become the norm for gun technology.
    8) A lucrative, largely unseen gun industry that is able to peddle its products of death in the mass market, using magazines such as Soldier of Fortune and Guns and Ammo to advertise and play on people’s emotions.
    9) The idea of the lone hero, who will actually stop one of these massacres while it occurs, though as far as we can tell, this almost never takes place.
    There’s more probably. I like Jim’s take on it, which puts blame/causation on the culture at large. He has some good insights.
    Though I’d say restricting access to these weapons is probably the most logical solution. The other issues are not so easily solved.

  116. turkleton December 17, 2012 at 2:35 pm #

    Oh, I forgot the topic of the anti-depressant medications, but this seems like it could be confusing correlation and causation. In other words, many of these people were depressed, and the modern treatment for depression is these medications. So there is a correlation between the meds and the killers but proving causation seems as if it would be next to impossible, though I’m open to any information that’s out there.

  117. Michigan Native December 17, 2012 at 2:41 pm #

    Another manifestation of the cultural collapse, the collapse of the family, failure of the father to raise their sons to be men (absence of the male figure as everyone goes their separate ways), failure to regognize ourselves as being human. This is nothing new, but what makes this particular tragedy harder is that it involved mostly 6 year old children. Their futures had been mortgaged, but to have their lives cut short like this. I look click off pictures of the victims when they appear, I can’t look at them
    Meanwhile I de-activated my facebook page (I am thinking forever might be a good idea) as various pro and anti gun types politicize this as an excuse to further their agenda. The kids haven’t even been buried yet, show some respect. “If only the teachers were allowed to carry guns, this wouldn’t have happened”. Add that to the list of people going to movie theatres, shopping malls (while they are still around)…I suppose we could add going to church (for those who do, I am not one of them), walking down the street. It is not at all hard to see at this point that the complete and total collapse of the US is not far behind.
    Speaking of people losing their minds, then the “new world order” (NWO) psychos step up to the plate to show us how paranoid they truly are. This was planned they insist, the kid was programmed to do this so the NWO could use this as a pretext to implement gun control measures to facilitate their take over. Notice how this happened just a few week(s) before some UN mandate, Obama’s “crocodile tears”, etc etc ad naseum. “There is plenty of oil”, they insist, “it’s all part of the NWO to keep up from us so they can control us”. Add to this delusion the use of HAARP weapons by the NWO to create these earthquakes and hurricanes for some unexplained reason to further keep us under their control. Everytime their is a jet trail, they rush out with their cameras to take pictures of these “chemtrails”, which the NWO is supposedly spaying the masses with, for reasons that vary from “mind control” to poisoning us to keep curb population growth (a more likely explanation if it were indeed true). I guess it varies from their lithium levels.
    If we survive December 21st, it will be peak oil and the collapse/deindustrialization process that ultimately destroys us, along with these NWO psychos who perpetrate these delusions/keep up the denial they will prevent enough people to adapt and take measures to help mitigate the looming collapse

  118. Buck's A Stud December 17, 2012 at 2:42 pm #

    A gravity filled post this week – sort of. JHK goes after the modern day male, but he only gets the story half right. Ironically, he becomes a formal embodiment of the shrinking American male in not at least mentioning the contribution of the modern day American female to the dysfunctional gender dynamic infecting the land. After all, certain aspects of the feminist movement, especially those occupying learning institutions, make no secret of their disdain for certain innate male traits and characteristics. For many, it was simply not enough to eradicate the gonads; no, they kept slicing upward, until the heart and soul of “American Man” was stored away in the pathology lab and contemptuously analyzed in the aftermath.

  119. turkleton December 17, 2012 at 2:44 pm #

    “this shooter’s mental illness. The roles of guns and parenting are second players.”
    This is such a fatuous interpretation of events. As you state, there is a certain percentage of people everywhere who are mentally ill. For instance, the difference between the Chinese man who went on a knife rampage, causing no deaths, I might add, and this guy, who killed almost 30 people, is that in China, assault weapons and handguns are very hard to come by. So the means for him to cause mass carnage was limited. It is a simple and logical conclusion to make that if access to these types of weapons was restricted, the incidence of these rampages would go down.
    What is so hard to understand about this? Do you really think that the US has so many more mentally unstable individuals than every other country out there that doesn’t see these incidents at such a common level?
    In fact, there is an over-emphasis on so-called “mental health” in all of this. There are something like 300,000 registered therapists and social workers in the US, and free mental health services are available. The problem is thinking that these medical services are somehow the lynchpin in solving this problem. They aren’t.
    Killing requires three things: means, motive, and opportunity.
    It turns out that modern firearms are a fantastic means, such that a motive and opportunity become almost irrelevant and can be provided simply by cultural insinuation. If this easy means is taken away, most people will NOT be able to perpetrate such violence on others and will simply not do so, or their effect will be severely curtailed.
    For instance, this perp would never been able to do this with a knife. And, suppose he wanted to make a bomb. This requires far more know-how, preperation, and secrecy than simply arming oneself with mom’s guns, to the point that he most probably wouldn’t have gotten away with it or would not have been technically successful.
    Fact of the matter is that, though bombs and knives or whatever could, in theory, be used to harm others, the frequency of their use is pretty low, and almost non-existant in mass killings. That’s because neither is nearly as good as an assault rifle in your hand.
    This is part of the problem to me, the deflection of the debate from the arms manufacturers and their weapons of death, to irrelevant side shows like mental health and violence media. I don’t deny that the latter play some part in all of this, but they are not the crux of the issue.

  120. budizwiser December 17, 2012 at 2:45 pm #

    James,you are as guilty as any CNN, MSNBC, or Fox broadcaster of pumping out knee-jerk journalism as if it is to represent meaningful introspection.
    No one knows anything about what this man/boy?s problems are or more importantly what he perceived to be wrong with his life, his world, and most of all those people he had ever met or dealt with.
    We just don’t know.
    One thing we do know, tens of millions grade school children went into and came home from elementary schools that day without any harm. Shall I assume the architecture and zoning of those communities is somehow harmonious?
    One thing I do know – those who can profit from these events will surely make their attempts while the rest of us remained dazed and confused about what the modern realities of life are.

  121. ASPO Article 1037 December 17, 2012 at 2:45 pm #

    Prayer in schools and Biblical virtues in textbooks.
    My introduction to 1950’s era “new morality” included ban on prayer in schools. Undeclared wars. Overhearing United Airline pilots laughing over coffee at Midtown Pharmacy soda fountain in Sacramento: stuffing bricks into mailbags so the airlines could strip mail contracts from the railroads…
    See

  122. Collapse Watch December 17, 2012 at 2:47 pm #

    BHO: We will not apologize for our way of life.
    And this latest shooting is part of that “way of life.”
    There will be no apologies because there can be no apologies.

  123. turkleton December 17, 2012 at 2:47 pm #

    “The kids haven’t even been buried yet, show some respect.”
    Why is it disrespectful to call for further gun control on the weapons that caused this incident? That is the logical course of action, if you actually care about it.
    As far as saying that it is “too soon” to discuss, or saying people should show some respect or class, well, here you are. There’s no statute on free speech that says when we can or can’t discuss things. If this really bothers you, I’d suggest curtailing your internet usage, because these days the commentary on national and world events is always immediate. That’s the society in which we live. I am not bothered by it at all, and I welcome the debate. It is far overdue.

  124. Treeman December 17, 2012 at 2:48 pm #

    K dog be very wary of using the DM as a sole source. They are now regarded as one step above the Sunday Sport in the reporting world.(think national inquirer would be your equivalent. What information they do not have they are more than happy to fabricate, particularly in their online version. Try the telegraph or the guardian for a right of left slant respectively.

  125. Dahveed December 17, 2012 at 2:50 pm #

    The disintegration of the nuclear family in “me first” America continues to bear toxic fruit. Many in our citizenry have adopted a “norm” of fucking and producing offspring nobody has the will or the time to care for and then they expect schools to “parent” their wild, uncontrollable, violent, abandoned offspring. Agreed: this period in our evolution as a nation is beyond the power of government or anyone else to fix. These murderous atrocities surely must be evidence that some societal “reset” is underway. Blaming “guns” won’t fix a thing.

  126. turkleton December 17, 2012 at 2:56 pm #

    Blaming “guns” won’t fix a thing.

    Blaming them won’t, but curtailing access certainly would do something in the long term. The problem is really not that complicated.
    And, as far as first reports indicate, the problem here WAS the guns. This was a shy, anti-social kid probably with a disease like Asperger’s syndrome, and yet mommie took him to the range quite a bit and was obsessed with her gun collection. She’d brag about it at the local bar. What do you think Johnnie took away from all of this? Don’t you think that’s kind of a weird environment for a kid with mental health issues?
    Now, you could be onto something with your thesis of children run amok. Unfortunately, that is not enough for me in terms of actual causative links. Two thousand years ago Plato decryed the ill-mannered, wild youth. Yet there weren’t gun rampages back then like we have now. Why? There were no guns. Think about it.

  127. dt December 17, 2012 at 2:57 pm #

    first they came for the assault rifle, but I wasn’t an assault rifle, so I said nothing.
    Then they came for the pistol, but I wasn’t a pistol…
    Then the shotgun (more deadly at close range than a bushmaster, btw), but I wasn’t a shotgun…
    Then the pen knife.

  128. Treeman December 17, 2012 at 2:57 pm #

    For a totally different perspective try
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/9751240/Connecticut-school-shooting-Adam-Lanzas-mother-thought-guns-would-teach-him-responsibility.html
    The two stories bear little relation to each other.

  129. Phaedrus December 17, 2012 at 3:00 pm #

    “The pleasure in our lives of affirming creation is inverted into perversities of destruction, pleasured in the pain of suffering and death.”- Phillip Rieff
    American politics and society today are all about showmanship over reality, vanity over self-preservation, preferables (money, fame, power) over good (wisdom, virtue, courage), and talk over action. True culture celebrates the power of re-creation instead of de-creation. Art and entertainment has abandoned mimicry of nature and meaning in favor of a freakish attempt at self-referencing and self-originating power. The motto of politics, ethics, and art becomes “I can do it, so I will do it.” The need to show re-creation through nature, self-mastery, and adopt real meaning (Will to Meaning) has been replaced with the need to assert one’s external ambitions (Will to Power) and maintain the perception of total control in a world that is always changing. Tens of thousands of people will sheepishly whack at the branches of evil for every one person who WAKES UP and strikes at the ROOT.
    “All the great dangers threatening humanity with extinction are direct consequences of conceptual thought and verbal speech.”
    Our weapons “technology” has outstripped instinctual restraints of their use, and we find ourselves in the situation of today, with a power to destroy and a willingness to do just that. The solutions are incredibly simple, but we feel that complex problems must have complex solutions in our lives of ever increasing, unnatural, and useless commotion. We have iPods, cell phones, and airplanes, yet we still haven’t come to terms with existential problems of maintaining an identity, confrontation with absurdity, and the distinction between phenomena and noumena. While the solutions are simple, the real difficulty is reminding ourselves to do what we already know how to do. My deepest symapathies go out to people who have lost loved ones in the face of senseless violence. I maintain hope that they will be able to keep the strength to deny credence to these acts and continue thier own lives in good health and peace – no small challenge. But as Viktor Frankl said:
    “For the world is in a bad state, but everything will become still worse unless each of us does his best. Since Auschwitz we know what man is capable of. And since Hiroshima we know what is at stake.”
    http://www.squarerootofzero.wordpress.com

  130. turkleton December 17, 2012 at 3:01 pm #

    So what? I’ve lived my entire life without any need whatsoever for a firearm. Other societies such as the UK and Japan do just fine without them, too, with far lower incidents of violence death than here. (I think you can have pen knives there, too.) Why do you think you need it?
    And, no, I don’t support the 2nd Amendment. I think it is archaic and has become destructive.

  131. turkleton December 17, 2012 at 3:05 pm #

    And by this logic, why not let ordinary civilians have access to tanks, fighter jets, and rocket launchers? The 2nd Amendment does say “arms”, after all. If they take my artillery away, next thing you know…

  132. ront December 17, 2012 at 3:06 pm #

    “Blaming “guns” won’t fix a thing.”
    But, Dahveed, nor will glamorizing them, nor will making them easily obtainable, nor will manufacturing the kinds with the only purpose being to kill or intimidate people.

  133. turkleton December 17, 2012 at 3:08 pm #

    That’s a great link and it backs up what I’m arguing. This kid already had a psychiatrist and was being treated for mental health issues. He had a doting, if somewhat strange mother who cared about him. Ultimately, it was his mom’s silly, dangerous, and somewhat insane obsession with guns, plus their easy availability in her household, which lies at the heart of all of this.

  134. asoka.. December 17, 2012 at 3:11 pm #

    HAPPY NEWS ON THE GLOBAL POPULATION FRONT
    “We believe that humanity has reached Peak Farmland, and that a large net global restoration of land to nature is ready to begin,” said Jesse Ausubel, director of the Program for the Human Environment at the Rockefeller University in New York.
    “Happily, the cause is not exhaustion of arable land, as many had feared, but rather moderation of population and tastes and ingenuity of farmers,” he wrote in a speech about the study he led in the journal Population and Development Review.
    The report, supplied to Reuters by Ausubel, projected that almost 150 million hectares (370 million acres) could be restored to natural conditions such as forest by 2060. That is also equivalent to 1.5 times the area of Egypt or 10 times Iowa.
    It said the global arable land and permanent crop areas rose from 1.37 billion hectares (3.38 billion acres) in 1961 to 1.53 billion (3.78 billion acres) in 2009. It projected a fall to 1.38 billion hectares (3.41 billion acres) in 2060.

  135. turkleton December 17, 2012 at 3:14 pm #

    From the article:
    “playing violent computer video games in a bedroom”
    Now this is probably over-sensationalized, but I do think that those with mental illness cannot always tell the difference between fantasy and reality. This is kind of a hallmark of what we consider mental illness. So playing violent video games all day could definitely be a causative factor, in that it could severely distort someone’s internal thinking about violence, turning into some kind of fantasy for solving problems rather than the horrible reality which it represents.

  136. Radu Voda December 17, 2012 at 3:15 pm #

    She was trying to be the Father by teaching him to shoot. Women can’t replace men. He hadn’t seen his Dad in two years. The rate of criminality by boys raised by single women is through the roof.
    Of course in this case, mental illness and her poor judgement may trump everything. Just add on a bit of a serotonic re-uptake and the table is set.

  137. HenryMorgan December 17, 2012 at 3:15 pm #

    The 2nd Amendment, indeed the entire bill of rights, comes out of the Enlightenment and the English Civil War. It was written for a White Protestant population, literate and classically liberal, steeped in Christian Faith, deeply religious, and above all highly self disciplined and belonging to an extremely cohesive, monocultural society. That society no longer exists and hasn’t since about 1861. Time to scrap the goddam thing, the 2nd amendment especially, and impose a dictatorship of the proletariat. That’ll put and end to all this mischief and bloodshed.
    –HenryMorgan

  138. Radu Voda December 17, 2012 at 3:19 pm #

    And you don’t like cops either, yet your plan would leave guns in the hand of only cops and criminals. It’s the eternal paradox of the Left: they hate the Goverment yet want the Goverment to be all powerful. Their answer: it will be different when WE are the Goverment. No it wont be, it’ll be worse. The Founding Fathers were far more wise: all Goverment is a necessary evil to be kept small. So where they Libertarians? No. They explained that their Model demanded a moral and engaged citizenry – selfish, flabby, disarmed, people cannot be free.

  139. Treeman December 17, 2012 at 3:20 pm #

    “Now, you could be onto something with your thesis of children run amok. Unfortunately, that is not enough for me in terms of actual causative links. Two thousand years ago Plato decryed the ill-mannered, wild youth. Yet there weren’t gun rampages back then like we have now. Why? There were no guns. Think about it.”
    Nope they just butchered each other with swords. A far more personal and messy method but still done none the less.
    You could ban swords too but then consider that in 1066 King Harold’s army was largely armed with billhooks. We Welsh slaughtered the French knights at Agincourt with longbows. How much more simple a weapon can you get. Apart from the arrowhead it doesn’t even use any metal.
    Humans had always done these sort of things. We cannot uninvent the gun. Banning it will not stop this sort of thing happening.
    For that to happen we need a fundamental shift in human societies worldwide.

  140. Collapse Watch December 17, 2012 at 3:22 pm #

    The irony is, had this kid been a true Bushmaster, this never would have happened. Who thinks about shooting five year olds crouched in the corner when they have a beautiful woman sitting on their face? No SSRIs necessary. Just one number will do. 69.

  141. dt December 17, 2012 at 3:25 pm #

    Well, my point is this: what happens when we outlaw all those assault rifles, and some douche bag does this sort of thing with a 12 gauge? Do we then require hunting with only bows and arrows? What happens when someone kills someone with a bow and arrow? How about a baseball bat? Outlaw little league?
    The real dangerous people will still be able to get guns. Period. All your arguments can’t solve this one. I’ll personally bet you ten bucks that this psycho in CT spent many, many months of his life sitting around play-killing people. Without that, there would likely be no killing like this. But, you are so quick to put the cart before the horse. I don’t mean to be disrespectful, but I find this the rantings of a numbskull.

  142. dt December 17, 2012 at 3:26 pm #

    Sorry, I reread and take back the numbskull part.

  143. Radu Voda December 17, 2012 at 3:27 pm #

    Thanks, Jack. You have said it: the people are the militia and the Founders, knowing the value of the militia, enshined their Right to be armed in the Bill of Rights for perpetuity. It cannot be changed. If it is, then America has fallen.

  144. asoka.. December 17, 2012 at 3:29 pm #

    We honor those who volunteer to learn how to kill other human beings efficiently. We give them medals for bravery for performing in theatres of war. We thank them for their “service” (since when is killing others a “service”?)
    Our whole culture is set up to worship violence. We spend half our discretionary federal budget on war related expenditures. We have military bases in every state of the union and most foreign countries.
    In our churches we hear many pastors preaching in support of war. Those who speak against war are ostracized and considered unpatriotic.
    We organize parades for the killers when they return to the USA. We organize our society so as to give veterans preferences over non-veterans, another way we honor those who engage in violence.
    I am surprised there are so few mass killings in the USA, even though so many have access to firearms and have received training from big government in ways to kill others.
    I expect there will be fewer and fewer mass killings in the future as preventative steps are taken and Obamacare starts in 2014. Obamacare already provides mental health services (for children at home, up to age 26, who can be covered on parental medical plans as authorized by Obamacare and supported by the Supreme Court).

  145. dt December 17, 2012 at 3:30 pm #

    I think there’s truth in that, though the delivery is a bit out there. But, does it have to be a beautiful woman? Those are difficult to come by sometimes. How about a fair-looking woman with a nice body? And good personality. Ah, for the natural endorphins of love. Ahimsa promoting, unless she gets threatened. Then out come the pen knives.

  146. Treeman December 17, 2012 at 3:37 pm #

    But we do have guns. There over 2.5 million legally registered guns in the UK. Several of which are currently sitting in my gunsafe. The thing is by and large we don’t settle our differences by recreating the wild west.
    Switzerland by contrast has a fully automatic assault rifle and semi auto pistol in the majority of Swiss households. Along with full body armour, multiple high capacity magazines and a large amount of ammo in the case of current serving members of their defence force. Yet the level of gun violence is well below that of the UK let alone the USA.

  147. turkleton December 17, 2012 at 3:45 pm #

    Blaming culture alone is a vast oversimplification.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_the_United_Kingdom
    “Except for Northern Ireland, fully automatic (submachine-guns, etc.) and self-loading (semi-automatic) weapons of calibre larger than .22 rimfire are totally banned, pistols are limited to .22 calibre in short barrel, while calibres up to .357 magnum are allowed in long barrel pistols (of total length at least 60 cm)”
    As for Switzerland, serving in the military is required, and that’s why people keep assault rifles in their house. And as I understand it, this system is being replaced by having a central armory where the weapons are securely stored.
    Fact of the matter is that the type of easy access to fire arms as in the US, including ubiquitous guns stores and shows, not to mention legions of private arms dealers, is not the norm in the countries that you mention.

  148. jonathanss. December 17, 2012 at 3:52 pm #

    Since you are so knowledgeable, perhaps you could inform me as to what level of weaponry I should stockpile in order to avoid a “Ruby Ridge” situation.
    “Use it, or lose it”.
    “From my cold, dead hands”.
    “If they do this, then they’ll do that…”.

  149. asoka.. December 17, 2012 at 3:52 pm #

    Nobody seems to have mentioned that assault violence has actually DECLINED in the USA since the 80s and 90s.
    Nobody seems to have mentioned that ownership of firearms is at or near all-time lows. The decline is most evident on the General Social Survey, though it also shows up on polling from Gallup.
    Nobody seems to have mentioned that states with tighter gun control laws appear to have fewer gun-related deaths. The disclaimer here is that correlation is not causation. But correlations can be suggestive.
    JHK missed a big opportunity to bash the South today. The South is by far the most violent region of the USA (measured by death due to assault).

  150. malthus December 17, 2012 at 3:53 pm #

    The newest growth industry in this nation of fools and idiots is the growth of the survival bunker. Spend a lot of money on a hole in the ground where you and your loved ones can hide out when everything goes down. It doesn’t matter that you were part of the problem, you will come out in a year and everything will be OK again. That’s what a good education in one of those boxes will teach you. To run and hide when the going gets tough and how to be patient waiting for things to get back to normal while living like a little rat underground. This reminds me of all the idiots that build bomb shelters thinking a direct nuclear hit could not hurt them and they would be saved. You gotta laugh at the stupidity that prevails in this country while all the time selling ourselves how special we are. Of course it is not only here that is thinking this. Everyone else in the world wants on the band wagon. Just think of all the little devices for communicating can be sold. Then everyone will be able to communicate with every other bunker full of the same kind of rats.

  151. Faust100F December 17, 2012 at 3:53 pm #

    I think anyone viewing the advertisements being played on the television can see the dumbing down of men in America by Madison Avenue, and the promotion of out of wedlock marriage, single mothers, and “strong” women.
    Men and women are not equal. They never have been they are two different animals. This breakdown in the family unit which is openly praised by the media is a major cause of what Jim says will be coming.
    The United States is a nation of “wimps” according to the media in this country, we are dullards and sheeple good only for shearing.
    I think those administrators in that school and in all school have a duty to protect their charges. In this case they were unarmed, and security was faulty. Has anyone ever heard of bullet proof glass. The killer ended his own life, his life should have been ended by an administrator in that school.

  152. turkleton December 17, 2012 at 4:01 pm #

    “all Goverment is a necessary evil to be kept small. ”
    I request that you provide me with any modern examples of a large functioning country, on the order of the size of the US, that has a government which is as small as possible. You can’t because they don’t exist. Again, you’re stuck 200 years in the past with your archaic political thinking about how government should work. Large, populous countries require large, complex governments to govern them. That’s simply common sense. Those large countries without powerful, centralized governments are generally basket cases in which you wouldn’t want to live.
    You also vastly oversimplify my beliefs by labeling me (yet again) as a Leftist, your favorite debate tactic. I advocate an overall disarming of the United States. This is not 1850, and there are no Injuns coming to kill your family. To me, it is common sense and would make our society far safer if everyone wasn’t armed to the teeth. Isn’t there something about a play where there’s a gun on the mantle and the assertion that if it is there, it must be used by the last act?
    By and large, I do trust police officers to make the right decisions. There is not in the US an epidemic of police killings as in Brazil or some other countries. I consider them fairly trustworthy, and they have gone through extensive training regarding their firearms, including when and when not to use them. And as far as the danger that they would engage in regular extra-judicial killings as a matter of policy, the paperwork alone is enough to dissuade most of them. When this does occur (and I won’t deny that it does), the officers are placed on administrative leave pending an investigation.
    Now, I realize that this whole idea is unrealistic, and unfortunately, as they say, the cat is out of the bag. One really can’t confiscate all the weapons that are already out there. Americans will definitely cling to their guns, some apparently above all else, and they already have a lot of them, more than one per person. Eventually, I may seek to live in another country that is not so collectively obsessed with its death toys that 20 dead grade schoolers is considered acceptable collateral damage. You consider this to some kind of Libertarianism or political wisdom. I say it is madness and the sign of a demented, sick society.
    “The Founding Fathers were far more wise”
    They were perhaps wise but not omniscient, and there is no way they could have forseen the direction in which American society has turned. Thomas Jefferson said that laws should be expired every 20 years and replaced with ones more relevant to the times. This particular piece of law, the 2nd Amendment, seems to have far outlasted its usefulness.
    There is simply the matter of practicality. It is no longer even possible for an armed citizenry to fight the US government. Do you really think a couple hand-held guns is any threat at all to the largest army and security state in the world? It isn’t. If your beef with the US government is really that severe, I suggest you move elsewhere. This is not a snotty call to “love it or leave it.” It would simply be a matter of practicality.

  153. Radu Voda December 17, 2012 at 4:02 pm #

    Outrageous – we agree for once. A perfect civil rights case if they were actually to do it.

  154. turkleton December 17, 2012 at 4:02 pm #

    I’m thinking a couple personal thermonuclear devices would be an adequate deterrant against the US government invading your survival bunker to confiscate your rice and beans.

  155. jgalt6 December 17, 2012 at 4:04 pm #

    As a trial lawyer that brought legal actions against the pharmaceutical industry, I have to agree with StinkyPants and his assertion of a link to psychotrophic drugs. That said, you can bet that the MSM will not investigate the links, nor will the government. Big Pharmacy is too big, rich, and powerful to be investigated, and they work in concert with the government and its agencies, including diabolical plans that are best not discussed in public forums. And, forget the trial lawyers, who are bought off with huge settlements in any class action lawsuits they bring. Everyone goes home happy, the drug companies, who pay a small portion of their gains to the trial lawyers, and the trial lawyers, who divvy up large fees from the settlements approved by the federal judge, and give a pittance to the dead and injured from the drugs. Some have blamed the extremely, and getting more so, violent video games that our young men live to play day and night. I totally agree with them as well, but you will see the usual suspects paraded out to defend and tell us that these games are for fun and do not have any effect on these young men, while never explaining why advertising has the desired effect on our brains, and billions of dollars is spent for that purpose. Or, why the military is in favor of these video games that teach murder and mayhem without any consequences. I am a supporter of the military, but there is more going on here than meets the eye. Hollywood movies are becoming more and more violent without any socially redeeming value, but again, the apologists will be trotted out to explain that they do not increase the propensity for violent acts from even those on the edge of lunacy. They only entertain all of us equally. And the only truth is the search for more and more money and power by these piped pipers who have brought us to the edge of the precipice into hell.

  156. Treeman December 17, 2012 at 4:04 pm #

    I am afraid wiki is wrong. Unless you are a section 5 firearms holder,and there are very few, all handguns are banned in the mainland uk. Humane killers(2 shot pistols) are severely regulated. Full auto firearms have never been legal here.
    The fact that my rifles are bolt action does not diminish their capacity to kill. A .308 bullet is not particular about what it is fired from. The end result is the same.
    We have had our spree and serial killers, every society has.
    The fact remains that gun crime in the UK continues to rise and the weapon of choice is the handgun.
    Criminals have not regard for the law neither do the insane.

  157. Radu Voda December 17, 2012 at 4:07 pm #

    Yes Soak – defeated men become produce less testosterone and become small, weaker, depressed, and feminized. It’s seen in primates as well. Now do women recieve their new “sisters” with joy? Of course not, they go for the winners. Alan Alda talked a good game, but he was on Prime Time TV – winner no matter what he said.
    I challenge you to look at not what women say, but what they do. They are shaping our evolution by their choices and those choices are not the ones you want. I mean if they wanted depressed losers it might make losing Ok for the losers. But they don’t – why would they? But by their hypocrisy, they attempt to have it both ways. And of course, you and so many Liberals fall for it.

  158. jonathanss. December 17, 2012 at 4:10 pm #

    The family unit breakdown, you claim, is praised by the media. You’ll have to reference your information sources, because I don’t see this at all.
    What I have observed, is that the “Corporate Media” and the ads it supports, will support any group if it furthers their sales.

  159. turkleton December 17, 2012 at 4:11 pm #

    “I am afraid wiki is wrong.”
    Wrong about which? The part about being able to own pistols? Okay.
    “The fact remains that gun crime in the UK continues to rise and the weapon of choice is the handgun.”
    Okay, BUT, the rates of these incidents is far, far below that of the US. And, I really question your sanity if you think that allowing easier access to these weapons would help the problem. This advocating for more of the problem as part of the solution is just insane to me.
    “The fact that my rifles are bolt action does not diminish their capacity to kill. A .308 bullet is not particular about what it is fired from. The end result is the same.”
    Yeah, but listen. There’s a world of difference between a semi-automatic assault weapon and your rifle. You simply could not, unless highly trained like a Marine or Army vet, perpetrate the level of carnage in the incident being discussed with a single shot, bolt action weapon. The rate of fire is not high enough, and the shooter would have to stop and reload. It is simply impractical.
    Anyways, what are you advocating for? You want loosened gun laws there in the UK? Trust me from across the pond, it won’t help you at all.

  160. Radu Voda December 17, 2012 at 4:11 pm #

    Yes, the obvious answer, just like arming the Pilots. Either that or giving every school an armed security guard or guards like the do in the ghettoes. I’d say the teacher option is best since any shooter wont know who is armed or not. Of course both could be put in play.
    The Founder of the Oath Keepers is offering to teach teachers to shoot for free.

  161. turkleton December 17, 2012 at 4:14 pm #

    “Hollywood movies are becoming more and more violent”
    I don’t know about this. A certain saturation point has been reached I’d say.

  162. turkleton December 17, 2012 at 4:14 pm #

    “I’d say the teacher option is best since any shooter wont know who is armed or not.”
    Arming grade school teachers, really? Are you that insane?

  163. jgalt6 December 17, 2012 at 4:15 pm #

    Not sure where you get your so-called facts from, but gun ownership is at an all-time high, not low. And, the states with the lowest rates of crime are concealed carry states, and they also have the lowest rates of death by firearm. The worst offenders, in case you have not been paying attention, are the most restrictive states and cities, like Chicago, Washington, D.C. Much more violent than any Southern cities. Perhaps you were merely posting tongue-in-cheek, and if so, I missed the joke.

  164. Radu Voda December 17, 2012 at 4:27 pm #

    Vote out the Democrats and Republicans. Let States and Coalitions of States peacefully secede from the Union – the very word implies divisibility. Whites obviously need their own Country away from self hating Liberals and hateful Minorities.

  165. turkleton December 17, 2012 at 4:28 pm #

    Your arguments are poor, and you are misinformed, for a number of reasons.
    I encourage you to read this article, which backs up all the points I will make:
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/12/14/nine-facts-about-guns-and-mass-shootings-in-the-united-states/
    Looking at the map under point #9, it is clear that the states with the highest rates of crime have the loosest gun laws, namely Arizona and various states in the South, which are notorious for having very loose restrictions on firearms owernship and purchases. Illinois and California, which you would probably cite as examples, actually have significantly lower homicide rates by gun than ALL the Southern and Great Plains states.
    “And, the states with the lowest rates of crime are concealed carry states, and they also have the lowest rates of death by firearm.”
    I’d like to see some kind of link for this, as I doubt it is true. I’m assuming the Southern states, Arizona, and the Great Plains states have more concealed carries (would need to quantify this but I think it is true), and they are statistically more violent according to the map I referenced. So that directly refutes your point.
    “The worst offenders, in case you have not been paying attention, are the most restrictive states and cities, like Chicago, Washington, D.C. Much more violent than any Southern cities.”
    No, this is not the case. The South is statistically the most violent region in the US and ALL the Southern states have more firearms deaths per capita than Illinois.
    There is also the fact that cities like Chicago and D.C. are more violent due to urban poverty and have had gun crime epidemics in the past, thus they are more likely to enact gun control legislation. You confuse correlation and causation. It could be that these controls are helping, but the reverse is unlikely to be true.
    As a counter example, I’d cite New York City, our most populous area, which has strict gun control laws, and one of the lowest rates of death by gun in the entire US. Would you be willing to admit a possible causative effect there?
    You have an agenda, and you’re molding reality to fit it. This much is clear. That’s fine. So do I. But at least, if you’re going to argue a certain viewpoint, please get your facts straight. I personally don’t think people are “entitled” to such uninformed opinions and should be called out on them. Because you’re just shooting from the hip, and it is clear that you don’t have your facts straight.

  166. turkleton December 17, 2012 at 4:29 pm #

    Previous post was for jgalt6. Sorry, I missed the reply button on my comment there.

  167. robindatta December 17, 2012 at 4:41 pm #

    Even physicians are required to have weapons training in the uS Army. Schoolmarms should have as a condition of their employment proficiency in the use of small firearms and should be required to carry loaded sidearms while at work: “When seconds count, the cops are just minutes away” – John Steinbeck.

  168. turkleton December 17, 2012 at 4:46 pm #

    “Schoolmarms should have as a condition of their employment proficiency in the use of small firearms and should be required to carry loaded sidearms while at work”
    That this statement is being echoed, apparently, by millions of people in this country in the wake of this massacre is prima facie evidence that we suffer from a collective insanity on this issue.
    When your solution (more guns) is part of the problem (guns), you know you’re in wingnut territory.
    Or perhaps (I hope?) you were being sarcastic.

  169. turkleton December 17, 2012 at 4:49 pm #

    And why do these gun rights advocates always want to change the subject in this debate? All of a sudden it becomes a theoretical discussion about driving, knives, and bombs. Can we stay focused please? We’re not talking about any of those things, and if you want to discuss instead 65 mph speed governors being mandatory in automobiles, be my guest. But that’s not the topic under discussion.

  170. yooper December 17, 2012 at 4:53 pm #

    Nothing new under the sun. In 1927 a disgruntled taxpayer , and yes, a nut, blew up the Bath, Michigan school. 38 kids died, 6 adults.

  171. asoka.. December 17, 2012 at 4:58 pm #

    I referenced my sources: General Social Survey and Gallup Poll.
    The survey in question was for “Gun Ownership in America, 1959-2010″
    In 1959, 50% of households had a gun. Now it is between 30 and 40% (depending on which survey, but both show gun ownership is at an all time low for the survey period).
    I was not being tongue in cheek. Gun violence is down. Gun ownership is down. Check out this article:
    The Declining Culture of Guns and Violence in the United States
    Don’t be carried away by the news headlines. Look at actual historical data.
    Things are getting better. It’s all good. (said without sarcasm)

  172. turkleton December 17, 2012 at 5:01 pm #

    Again, here is this subject change to bombs, which YES, everyone agrees, can cause massacres. But are we undergoing a domestic epidemic of bombings? No, so stay on topic, please. It simply isn’t nearly as easy to construct a functioning explosive device as it is to grab a few handguns or assault rifles and start firing. Otherwise, there’d be a comparable epidemic of mass bombings. And there isn’t.

  173. turkleton December 17, 2012 at 5:03 pm #

    Did you read the aforementioned WSJ article?
    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324712504578131360684277812.html
    It makes a convincing case that the real reason homicide by firearm has gone down has more to do with better medical care than a real decline in violence. An interesting read, that.

  174. dt December 17, 2012 at 5:05 pm #

    So, what about shotguns? Outlaw them too?

  175. dt December 17, 2012 at 5:05 pm #

    How about crossbows? Those fuckers are wicked.

  176. stelmosfire December 17, 2012 at 5:07 pm #

    Never heard of that incident Yooper
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster
    T. McVie the sick-F made a big splash however. Fertilizer and diesel. Not really controlled substances.

  177. Radu Voda December 17, 2012 at 5:08 pm #

    Why not? I thought you thought highly of women…
    Not a Leftist? Which items of the Communist Manifesto do you disagree with? I admit you may be more of a European Socialist, allowing large scale crony capitalism and any small business that survive the ruinous taxation.
    You don’t agree with 2nd Ammendment? Them’s the rules, hoss. You can’t show up to a baseball game and start playing football. Or do you intend to repeal the Bill of Rights? You people tried to make the militia out to be the National Guard but not even Americans were dumb enough to believe that.
    Yes, we need a big goverment because the local and State levels don’t do their job – the Feds wont let them. And individuals are too lazy and incompetent to be self sufficient. So you’ve won: the Congress doesn’t even read half the bills it signs. It’s too big to function – like a dinosaur. The 10 Ammendment says the States should do most of what needs to be done – and that would be lessened by Individual responsibility. But that means letting people be responsible by letting them work. And that means kicking out the illegals and enticing the Corporations back to America.
    A simple observation: if you want to repeal the Bill of Rights or distort them out of all semblance to their original intent, then you are not an American. Just as someone tackling the pitcher should not be allowed to play, you should not be allowed to vote.

  178. Radu Voda December 17, 2012 at 5:10 pm #

    The highest crime rates coincide with the Blackest cities. Coincidence?

  179. piltdownman December 17, 2012 at 5:12 pm #

    The amount of chatter that I hear about guns from my fellow workers is alarming.
    Two guys at a departmental lunch today were saying, “Yea, you’d better get your AR soon!” And went on to discuss when they might visit the shooting range again. They were not afraid to discuss this in a what amounts to a work situation, as if they were discussing the weekend’s sports results. And perhaps, as you hint at Jim, they are much the same, or driven by the same needs and desires. Bear in mind, these are pretty much “city kids,” not guys who (like me) who grew up in the rural hunting culture of upstate NY. Clearly they have actively sought out guns and shooting for what they see as a legitimate leisure time activity.
    Perhaps it is. Perhaps not.
    One thing that amuses me is the notion that teachers should have guns, so they can act as little mini-swat teams in each school. Who is kidding whom? One of the real problems that exists is that teachers and administrators and other adults in the room have had their authority so demeaned over the past two decades that they can barely tell some foul-mouthed little shit to shut up and “go to the Principal’s office.” If they don’t watch out, they’ll be sued or demoted or lose their job. They know that, so they silently stand by as schools, and by extension, society, weaken. Isn’t it clear that along with home and parents, schools are supposed to be a place where values are not only taught, but upheld?
    One other quick note, about community, as least a we knew it growing up. As we now know, that “way of life,” is mostly gone. Children live in far flung pods. There activities are not self-directed. Adults are always there to ease pain or mediate a dispute. Children no longer learn to work out their problems. Not a long term approach to a civil society.

  180. Treeman December 17, 2012 at 5:13 pm #

    “Okay, BUT, the rates of these incidents is far, far below that of the US. And, I really question your sanity if you think that allowing easier access to these weapons would help the problem. This advocating for more of the problem as part of the solution is just insane to me.”
    You miss my point. In the UK gun ownership has never been as common as in the USA. You have pretty much one gun for every single inhabitant of CONUS. Even if you removed 150 million legally held guns you would still have over 50 times the number legally held here. It is a nightmare problem which a simple knee jerk ban will not solve.
    Reduced capacity magazines is one term bandied about yet a magazine is for the most part just folded sheet metal and a spring. Easily manufactured by anyone with basic engineering skills.
    Yet we in the UK still have these problems.
    Despite repeatedly tightening the gun laws the frequency of spree killings and the number of victims has remained about the same.
    The number of victims of gun crime has actually increased with the tightening of each law.
    Even in the USA the victims of gun crime far outweigh the victims of spree killers and in almost all cases both here and in your country the criminal has illegally obtained the gun. Our tightened gun laws have made no difference to the rate at which guns have been used in crime.
    As for mental illness, Thomas Hamilton the Dunblane killer, held a firearms certificate that was sanctioned by the Chief Constable himself. He was initially denied because of concerns over his mental state and his unhealthy interest in young boys. The system failed because he had friends in high places.
    I hope you never have had the misfortune of witnessing what a large calibre rifle round does to the human body. One FMJ round can pass through several people before expending all its energy.
    In this particular case the time spent reloading would have meant little. His victims were essentially captives and he could have took his time. He could have used a double barreled shotgun, the result would have been largely the same.
    The Israelis have developed a system of training carefully vetted parents and grandparents to conceal carry and help out at the schools. They adopted this system after the Ma’alot massacre in 1974. Since doing so there has not been one successful attack of this nature against a school in Israel. It’s not perfect but it would be a start. However it would require people to commit to their community and work towards protecting the vulnerable regardless off politics.
    As I said earlier trying to uninvent the gun is not the answer. We need a fundamental shift in Human society, until that happens every thing else is window dressing.

  181. asoka.. December 17, 2012 at 5:16 pm #

    We are a less violent nation now than we’ve been in over forty years. In 2010, violent crime rates hit a low not seen since 1972; murder rates sunk to levels last experienced during the Kennedy Administration.* Our perceptions of our own safety have shifted, as well. In the early 1980s, almost half of Americans told the General Social Survey (GSS) they were “afraid to walk alone at night” in their own neighborhoods; now only one-third feel this way.**
    SOURCE: *FBI Uniform Crime Reporting Statistics; **General Social Survey
    Things are getting better all the time.
    It’s all good.
    Asoka dot dot, GUBR
    Waiting for “reality to hit”
    LOL!

  182. turkleton December 17, 2012 at 5:17 pm #

    Where do you get these statistics? I’d like sources please, because I don’t believe most of them. I’m willing to read what you link though. Thanks.

  183. turkleton December 17, 2012 at 5:19 pm #

    Not even going to bother. This post is so full of straw men and ad hominems that I don’t even know where to begin. Anyways, have a good week there, bucko. I’m planning on not responding to any more of your posts. It isn’t worth my time or mental effort. Cheers.

  184. asoka: December 17, 2012 at 5:19 pm #

    What do Mika, JHK, XXX5, and a host of other doomsayers have in common? They have all, over a period of years, said Europe is in CRUNCH TIME, on the brink of collapse… taking down the USA with it… oh, my! The end is near. I hope the end of the “Europe is collapsing” refrain is near.
    “Europe’s finance ministers hunkered down together for 14 hours yesterday and finally, in the wee hours of this morning, reached a landmark agreement to put Europe’s big banks under the supervision of the European Central Bank.”
    Europe seems to know what it is doing. And even if they don’t, they can kick the can for decades.
    This week’s Kunstler Post is growing on me, upon rereading. Things are just as sweet and light as JHK paints them.
    But wait for JHK’s 2013 Forecast: another 4,000 DOW is coming … soon, “just around the corner,” “things work, until they don’t,” “we are so fucked!” “nature bats last” blah blah blah … CFN has a myriad of empty cliches.

  185. turkleton December 17, 2012 at 5:25 pm #

    I am kind of failing to see what is your point, Treeman, though I appreciate the thoughtful response. It is nearly impossible to legislate into existence a better society, but it is possible to make rules about restricting access to powerful weapons meant to kill others. To me, it is a matter of practicality. One can sit there wringing hands and bemoaning the fall of civilization, writ large, but the question is, what is to be done about it? Dearming the citizenry, in other words a type of internal armistice, is to me a logical step in order to deemphasize violence as a way of solving problems. Judging from firearms ownership statstics in the US, which has the highest per capita amongst all the rich nations (among all nations?), there is a correlation between these ubiquity of firearms and rates of violence. This should be as plain as the nose on your face, but the debate gets distorted now by all kinds of side issues, mostly to deflect blame away from culprits like wealthy, international corporations who profit from selling these guns in lucratic markets like the US.

  186. asoka.. December 17, 2012 at 5:25 pm #

    Message from Asoka.. to Asoka:
    Are you having fun?
    Haven’t you noticed that I, Asoka.. dot dot am posting on my own. Your Asoka: colon posts are really not necessary, though they are enjoyable.
    I don’t know what you are trying to accomplish by plagiarizing my posts. You cannot make me look more foolish … I do that on my own.
    But carry on. Imitation is a form of flattery.

  187. asoka.. December 17, 2012 at 5:29 pm #

    Turkleton, last week Treeman said he just likes to use CFN posts to “expose corrupt minds”, so there might be some of that going on.
    Source: (Treeman replied to comment from asoka.. | December 17, 2012 10:00 AM)

  188. turkleton December 17, 2012 at 5:31 pm #

    The mental illness debate is a red herring, in my opinion. Again, those with a vested interest in the status quo want to deflect blame to other areas, other than the obvious.
    To wit, this incident was caused by a mother exposing her mentally ill child to the violent, irrational culture of firearms, when it was not at all appropriate that he be immersed in this millieu. Couple this with her rather insane perception that society was “falling apart” and that a small home arsenal was the only protection against this, you have the makings of one of these modern American tragedies, fueled primarily by firearms and their associated mode of thinking, which is killing as a primary means of solving one’s person problems.
    The fact of the matter is that he WAS getting mental health treatment or had in the past. He’d seen school psychiatrists in the past. He was (apparently?) on anti-depressants. This describes any number of kids who don’t commit mass murder. The difference here is that once this toxic gun culture mixed with his mental illness and mind state, it unfortunately lead him down a certain path, and perhaps no amount of mental health intervention, barring forced committment to an institution, would have prevented it.

  189. Treeman December 17, 2012 at 5:34 pm #

    An ordinary gallon of petrol(gas) has the explosive power of around six sticks of dynamite when properly detonated. Mr Molotov’s cocktail is well known worldwide.Thermite is one of the easiest to make. McVeigh used ANFO, again absurdly easy to make and a favourite of the PIRA in Northern Ireland. Even detonators are easy to manufacture.
    The fact that most that know how to do such things do not is but a small blessing

  190. Treeman December 17, 2012 at 5:37 pm #

    Yes Asoka and yours is truly corrupt.

  191. ksat December 17, 2012 at 5:39 pm #

    Agreed, cm989, that we need to reinstitute the assault weapons ban. However, that will only put a bandaid on the much larger crisis that Mr Kunstler is getting at. America has a sickness of the soul. Our nation is far too large and diverse to manage. We look to DC for answers and they have none. It’s time we quit telling the rest of the world what to do and realize that we are a sick society, raising perhaps millions of sick young men with nowhere to go. Time for us to downsize and maybe break apart, for we can no longer be one nation, indivisible.

  192. asoka.. December 17, 2012 at 5:40 pm #

    Couple this with her rather insane perception that society was “falling apart” and that a small home arsenal was the only protection against this…
    ============
    This is an indictment of a good portion of Clusterfuck Nation. I agree with this comment.
    Too many private arsenals. I have already left the USA, though I spend part of the year in an isolated desert location there.

  193. turkleton December 17, 2012 at 5:40 pm #

    Again, I fail to see the point being made here. There is not an equivalence between those items and firearms, because manufacturing a bomb and a detonation mechanism takes far more planning, technical knowledge, and secrecy than simply pulling a couple guns out of the closet and driving to the closest grade school. It really is as simple as this.
    Also, gasoline, explosive precursors, and the like have legitimate uses outside of making big explosions. Such is not the case for handguns and assault weapons, which are manufactured for the sole purpose of putting bullets into other people. If you don’t believe me, then simply read the advertisements for them in magazines like Guns and Ammo. They’ll tell you straight up.
    My primary argument is that, if explosives really are that easy to manufacture, why hasn’t there been a domestic epidemic of mass bombings? You’re not following through on your own logic. It hasn’t happened because this is far more complicated and difficult to achieve than a gun crime, period.

  194. asoka.. December 17, 2012 at 5:42 pm #

    Sticks and stones may break my bones,
    But words can never hurt me.
    :)

  195. Treeman December 17, 2012 at 5:47 pm #

    And of course what I actually said was:
    “No sorry asoka, I am not a christian. I merely use it as a foil to expose corrupt minds such as yours.”
    Which really isn’t the same thing.
    Taqiyya again Asoka.
    The realization that your going to spend eternity in Jahannam beginning to get to you is it? Remember hypocrites are consigned to Hawai the lowest level of all.

  196. asoka.. December 17, 2012 at 5:52 pm #

    Remember hypocrites are consigned to Hawai the lowest level of all.
    ============
    Then I have nothing to worry about.
    Besides one of our prophets, Jesus, said the last shall be first.

  197. turkleton December 17, 2012 at 5:54 pm #

    O-k. Things are getting kinda weird in here…

  198. ozone December 17, 2012 at 6:00 pm #

    “…but the debate gets distorted now by all kinds of side issues, mostly to deflect blame away from culprits like wealthy, international corporations who profit from selling these guns in lucratic markets like the US.” -T
    Alrighty then, now you’ve hit on why BAU will definitely NOT be diverted, stopped, amended or constrained.
    (I b’lieve it’s “lucrative”, but no biggie.)
    I’m seeing that sometimes your altruism trumps what you instinctively know to be the reality of the situation. The essence of this “country” (now a wholly-owned subsidiary of Psychopathic Grasping Assholes, Inc., hey, hey, it’s the PGA) is now the commodification of everything to be sold to [or bilked from] the last rube/sucker to be holding the infamous “bag”.
    IMHO, you KNOW this, but would rather not admit it. If you DO admit it, you will require yourself to get thoroughly busy. Should THIS happen, go as slowly as your intuition will allow (it’s good to learn from small-ish mistakes, rather than a large one made in haste). It’s a consequential chain that doesn’t have much room for bullshittery (tm MM) of oneself.

  199. Treeman December 17, 2012 at 6:05 pm #

    “My primary argument is that, if explosives really are that easy to manufacture, why hasn’t there been a domestic epidemic of mass bombings? You’re not following through on your own logic. It hasn’t happened because this is far more complicated and difficult to achieve than a gun crime, period.”
    Sorry my comment wasn’t really directed at you but just a comment on the ease of which they are manufactured.
    I suspect the reason with spree killers is the need to be directly connected to their victims. To glorify their actions(in their own minds).
    I am not sure how you think making a molotov cocktail is complicated.
    Each culture seems to prefer different methods. We know the Islamics have a penchant for blowing themselves up. In Africa the machete and the soweto necklace are firm favorites though mr AK47 and tribal weapons are equally acceptable. The Northern Irish particularly liked the car bomb.
    With most Europeans and pretty much the both north and south America favour the gun.
    In each case it does not mean that we will stop killing if a particular method becomes unavailable.
    Humans are never short of ideas on how to kill each other.

  200. ozone December 17, 2012 at 6:11 pm #

    …Lest you misread me, I completely agree that the “caring mother” had a large hole in her critical thinking skills, when she left her weapons unsecured (or even extant) with an emotionally disturbed child inhabiting the same space. The phrase “common sense” doesn’t even make it onto the radar as a faint blip here.
    …And she was a former teacher? Ummmmm, tragically large blindspot for a supposed sensitive to young minds, even if it were of her own issue.

  201. turkleton December 17, 2012 at 6:15 pm #

    “In each case it does not mean that we will stop killing if a particular method becomes unavailable.”
    This is a debatable assertion. There really is no easier AND readily available way to kill a bunch of people in a confined space than a firearm designed to do just this. Period.
    Yes, other methods exist, including rockets and bombs. But they are not available over the counter at Wal-mart. And bombs, as previously stated, require a lot more work to effectively deploy.
    Say that this guy from the latest massacre hadn’t had access to guns and had not trained with them. He probably never would have killed anyone. He likely would not have resorted to other means, because you cannot kill 20-odd people in 5 minutes using a kitchen knife. There wouldn’t have been another realistic and easily achievable means to accomplish his sick goal.
    “I am not sure how you think making a molotov cocktail is complicated.”
    And, how, pray tell, do you easily and reliably kill almost 30 people with one of these in the span of a few minutes? These are used in riots all the time (say Greece), and the cops simply step aside. They aren’t that deadly.
    Now contrast that with a Bushmaster…

  202. Collapse Watch December 17, 2012 at 6:16 pm #

    Yes, it’s getting weird….and here’s some weirder.
    “Sandy Hook” in Batman: Dark Knight Rises
    Aurora is on display, as well, in the movie.

  203. turkleton December 17, 2012 at 6:18 pm #

    “In Africa the machete”
    Okay, granted there are many tools for the job, but in order to kill a lot of people using implements like this, a lot of people have to be mobilized. For instance, in Rwanda about 500k were killed mostly using these, but how many people did it? I’m guessing the number is comparable to the number of people killed.
    You’re not going to get one guy wielding a machete who kills 30 people in a room, just by himself. It is nearly physically impossible.

  204. asoka.. December 17, 2012 at 6:21 pm #

    LOL! Treeman thinks it is impossible to be a Muslim atheist, even though that is my experience in life.
    So, he is reaching into Islamic theology to find all kinds of things to try to scare me. Except it isn’t working, so then Treeman accuses me of deception.
    It’s all a distraction, an unnecessary ad hominem side show. Pay no attention. Outside of his obsession with Islam, his comments are interesting.

  205. turkleton December 17, 2012 at 6:31 pm #

    “Treeman thinks it is impossible to be a Muslim atheist, even though that is my experience in life.”
    It IS impossible, ‘soka. There is no god but…no god? Me no get it.

  206. turkleton December 17, 2012 at 6:39 pm #

    What amazes me about the situation here in the States is the idiotic level of debate which constitutes the norm.
    Instead of discussing the primary issue here, which is (obviously) the lax gun control laws and the almost casual availability of high-powered weaponry, we get a schizophrenic discussion about mental health, violence in the media, anti-depressants, the breakdown of society, the deadliness of drunk driving, hypothetical and/or extremely rare mass bombings and knifings as equivalent scenarios, fighting the tyrannical government, largely mythical suburban home defense incidents, and on and on and on, ad infinitum.
    I think JHK is right. There is a lack of coherence, generally speaking in our narratives. I’m not sure what it stems from but I find it frustrating in even talking about issues like these. People seem to have an inability to even stay on topic. Part of it may have to do with certain vested interests muddying the waters to deflect criticism and just generally cause confusion.

  207. sevenmmm December 17, 2012 at 6:42 pm #

    There is no hell in the spirit world…, but there is hell on Earth.
    This is just the beginning, I am afraid.

  208. asoka.. December 17, 2012 at 6:43 pm #

    Oy vey! It’s off topic. And unimportant.
    Let’s continue with bombs, guns, knives, etc. and which is most effective to kill the most people in the least amount of time in the American Horror Show.
    Lock and load.
    Asoka dot dot, GUBR
    LOL!

  209. dlach December 17, 2012 at 6:46 pm #

    This article appeared in the NYT today and gets to many of the points that Jim made:
    http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/12/17/guns-and-the-decline-of-the-young-man/?hp

  210. k-dog December 17, 2012 at 6:47 pm #

    Ex-babysitter fundraising website.
    Interesting, very interesting. Is fair to question his motives (Ryan Kraft)and if the cash will reach the poor people of Sandy Hook? Do they need money?
    This thing is quite a circus. Has anyone heard any news of any of the victims being helped?

  211. patrick December 17, 2012 at 6:51 pm #

    Of course we don’t want to go back to the bad ol’ days of rampant mysogyny, and nobody rational is suggesting that we should, so let’s not get bent out of shape arguing over something nobody is suggesting.
    I thinkg there really is an issue here. Most young men think that being a man is all about projecting as much menace as possible, in much the same way as babboons do. If you want women to live as equal members of society without fear of violence, the last thing you should want are unhinged males running around. The social construct of what it means to be a ‘man’ is not simply a tool of female oppression. It is also the leash that serves to civilize and tame physically stronger and more aggressive half of the species. It matters.
    In any case, society is reaping what it has sown by training children to be adults in dismal gulags where social conditions like those in the “Lord of the Flies” are the norm. There’s really nothing suprising here.

  212. asoka.. December 17, 2012 at 6:51 pm #

    In the last few days, even before JHK posted today:
    I stated my support for Diane Feinstein in her proposal to ban assault weapons.
    I posted at length on the historical relationship between NRA and ALEC.
    I provided statistics on crime rates, gun ownership, etc. and cited sources.
    I stated my opinion that our culture is militarized and we have surprisingly little gun violence given the level of militarism and the number of people who have passed through military training in the USA.
    I challenged the logic of those who think: “It’s impossible to control firearms, so let’s not introduce legislation.”
    And for those who say it is too early to “politicize” the massacre with gun control legislation, I would remind them that saying it is “too early” is in and of itself a political statement which is supported by the NRA.
    I am the Resident Facilitator on discussion of the American Horror Show.
    Asoka dot dot, GUBR
    LOL!

  213. k-dog December 17, 2012 at 6:55 pm #

    If the soldier has largely been replaced by the video game character and the drone, if the mothers have proven that they can raise the children alone, if the corporations are less able or willing to guarantee the possibility of upward mobility and some level of respect that comes with title, if someone else can bring home the bacon, what is left for young men?

    All this, and they still are not allowed to cry.

    Good article DLACH and very relevant to JHK’s screed today. Thanks.

  214. Pucker December 17, 2012 at 7:03 pm #

    Does anyone know of a way to counter-scam this bloke? Thanks.
    “Dear sir,
    I am Mr James Davenport the Assistant Director Inspection Unit/United Nations Inspection Agent in Heathrow International Airport London UK. During my recent withheld package routine check at the Airport Storage Vault, I discovered an abandoned shipment from a Diplomat from Iraq and when scanned it revealed an undisclosed sum of money in a metal trunk box.
    The consignment was abandoned because the Contents of the consignment was not properly declared by the consignee as “MONEY” rather it was declared as personal effect to avoid interrogation and also the inability of the diplomat to pay for the United Kingdom Non Inspection Charges which is 3,700 British Pound. On my assumption, the box will contain about $10 Million to $15 Million and the consignment is still left in our Storage House here at the Heathrow International Airport London till date.
    I will advise you provide your current Phone Number and Full Address, Please note that this consignment is supposed to have been returned to the United States Treasury Department as unclaimed delivery due to the delays in concluding the clearance processes I will advise you send the required details to my private email address which is for quick processing and response.I can get everything concluded within 3-6 hours upon your acceptance and proceed to your address for delivery.
    I am willing to transact this business and share the money 50% for you and 50% for me since the consignment has not yet been returned to the United States Treasury Department after being abandoned by the diplomat so immediately the confirmation is made, I will go ahead and pay for the United Kingdom Non Inspection Fee of 3,700 pounds and arrange for the box to be delivered to your doorstep Or I can bring it by myself to avoid any more trouble but you have to assure me of my 50% share.
    Mr James Davenport
    Assistant Inspection Director
    Heathrow International Airport
    TW6 2GW London
    Direct phone number +447700093172″

  215. Treeman December 17, 2012 at 7:09 pm #

    Actually to kill people confined in a room there is no simpler way than fire. The molotov is the embodiment of that and was used just to do that.
    In Rwanda the body count was a minimum of 800,000. These were the people that could be verified by local and government records.
    The Interahamwe who did the bulk of the killing numbered less than 30,000 at their peak but mainly their numbers were around the 6,000 mark.
    They would often force families to kill their own children before executing them.
    The machete or panga as it is sometimes known was the weapon of choice.
    Bear in mind not all of the Interahamwe were mass killers many rounded up the victims for those that enjoyed it. But all killed at least once.
    The translation of Interahamwe is literally “those that kill as one” by the way.
    Remember 800,000 in 100 days.
    You say “You’re not going to get one guy wielding a machete who kills 30 people in a room, just by himself. It is nearly physically impossible.”
    Really small children in a locked classroom? The Interahamwe wiped out entire villages.

  216. sheppard December 17, 2012 at 7:11 pm #

    Repealing your Second Ammendment is futile. You Americans and more than a few Canadians who worship all things American, have a gun culture mindset that can’t be changed.
    Confiscating and/or buying the excessive guns is not based in reality. Buying them would be too costly, confiscating or outlawing them would just turn way too many law abiding citizens into instant criminals.
    Americans love guns. Americans love money. Here is a way to meld the two loves and maybe, just maybe, help prevent more of this idiocy. I read this on another blog.
    Have mandatory insurance on all weapons. If it is an assault rifle, tack on a higher premium. A pistol with an enhanced magaizine, higher premium. Someone with a mental diorder in the house? Higher premium. Teenager in the house? Higher premium. Bolt action rifle used for hunting? Lowest possible premium. Any pistol, they are only good for killing people anyway, higher premium. Oh, each weapon should have its own policy too, no group rates.
    Another thing to do, but this will take decades, probably 2 to 3 generations is education. Educate people on guns and there uses and failings. This is a subtle approach but in twenty years you would see a marked if not miraculous decline in gun deaths in your country.
    Or you can sit home Christmas Eve and polish your warm firearms while over 2 dozen people lie in cold graves. You call NRA.
    Allan

  217. a_human December 17, 2012 at 7:14 pm #

    i happen to know several children of single mothers who are well-educated, well-adjusted, productive and thoughtful, both boys and girls, young women and men. i include my own children among the enumeration. but these children were fortunate to be born without serious mental illness, lucky to not have developed schizophrenia, blessed not suffer devastating loss. parents of children less fortunate will always have a huge challenge, they are always paddling upstream, be they be one parent or two, male or female. i posit that the problem at hand has less to do with the current state of manliness, and much more to do with the fact that mentally ill individuals can very, very easily acquire ridiculously powerful guns that can kill many, many people in mere seconds. that is the problem.
    in the same breath, i will acknowledge that i think u.s. men and women leave a lot to be desired – we are hilariously impressed with bling, rendered slack-jawed by entertainment and so deeply self-interested as to cross the border into malevolence. this kind of environment does make it a whole lot easier for mentally ill individuals to plan and do awful things, because awful is not that far from the norm. but is it because of single parent families? not in my experience, no.

  218. asoka.. December 17, 2012 at 7:18 pm #

    Actually to kill people confined in a room there is no simpler way than fire.
    ============
    Right you are, bloke. White men of Western “civilization” have developed all kinds of interesting weapons. On Gun forums in the USA you can find working flame throwers for sale. That would be one way to kill 30 people in a room pretty quickly. You can pick one up for around USD$2,500.

  219. Pucker December 17, 2012 at 7:25 pm #

    George Bush, Jr.: “Some Saudi lunatics just flew a plane into a building, so we all now have to give up our liberties.”
    O.b a ma: “Some lunatic just shot up a school, so now we all have to give up our Second Amendment Right-to-Bear-Arms. Turn in your guns. Trust me to protect you.”

  220. Sololeum December 17, 2012 at 7:29 pm #

    One of your more thoughtful pieces Jim; obviously it has deeply affected you. In primitive societies boys became men only after initiation into the tribal secrets and passing an ordeal. They had been “born again” the original and still true meaning. Until a young man is 30 or so he must work hard or be in the military – it takes up excess mental and physical energy.
    Being entertained from childhood right through leaves little room for personal development and growth – a pox in indeed upon our houses!

  221. Treeman December 17, 2012 at 7:31 pm #

    Asoka repeatedly asserts he is a Muslim. Unfortunately his knowledge of Islam is at best laughable at worst deliberately misleading.
    He practices Islam, or so he claims.
    His knowledge is gleaned from wikipedia though not from the Koran. He insults all the victims, and they are legion, of Islam.
    I often use Christianity to expose his lack of understanding, though any religion would do.
    His assertion that he is a muslim atheist displays the utter lack of knowledge that he has. In Islam that alone is sufficient to condemn him to the deepest part of hell.
    His muslim friends, he says, approve of this when even the most moderate would find such a position most troubling and his presence most damaging.

  222. asoka.. December 17, 2012 at 7:35 pm #

    Do you think O. b a ma will do it using the UN Arms Trade Treaty?
    Will we all end up in FEMA camps, like they said in 2007 would happen in 2008 if O. b a ma was elected?
    This is serious!

  223. asoka.. December 17, 2012 at 7:42 pm #

    His muslim friends, he says, approve of this when even the most moderate would find such a position most troubling and his presence most damaging.
    =============
    Just as there are Christian atheists and Jewish atheists, there are Muslim atheists. If it doesn’t compute for you… too bad.
    Just as there are reformed Jews, existentialist Christians, etc. there are liberal Muslims. You haven’t met any? … too bad.
    You really need to get out more. Your preconceptions are killing the intelligence level of your comments on Islam.
    In the real world people don’t necessarily follow the books to the letter … and that appies in Judaism, in Christianity, in Islam. The world is a big place. Contains multitudes. Large.

  224. turkleton December 17, 2012 at 7:42 pm #

    Well, it was a qualified statement with “readily available.” Anyways, hope you got my point.

  225. Treeman December 17, 2012 at 7:45 pm #

    2 gallons of gas and a road flare is far cheaper and once the door is locked just as effective. Asphyxiation kills just as many as the fire itself.
    In WW2 the German Tiger tank took its heaviest losses in urban warfare. The cause, the molotov cocktail.

  226. Buck's A Stud December 17, 2012 at 7:46 pm #

    Do you think JHK is right to lay some of the blame at the feet of male dysfunction/malaise? I wonder myself, because most males in today’s society are playing by the rules and are generally well-adjusted. JHK seems to believe that a return to some anachronistic guild like system that fosters the arts and crafts is going to evaporate male laxity, for lack of a better word. I’m not so sure that is a coherent conclusion, much less possibile.

  227. asoka.. December 17, 2012 at 7:48 pm #

    Yeah, I guess the important thing is to be sure you get media coverage, and be able to yell, “I am the flamer!” before using a pistol to blow your brains out as soon as authorities arrive.

  228. asoka.. December 17, 2012 at 7:58 pm #

    2 gallons of gas and a road flare…
    ===========
    No mentally ill son of a survivalist is going to carry 2 gallons of gas and a road flare. Mofo gas tanks are heavy and bulky!
    13 pounds = 2 gallons of gas plus one road flare
    6.7 pounds = .223-caliber Bushmaster rifle

  229. Radu Voda December 17, 2012 at 8:07 pm #

    Yes, it was a tour de force and you got no response to any of it. You got nuthin, commie.

  230. asoka.. December 17, 2012 at 8:08 pm #

    most males in today’s society are playing by the rules and are generally well-adjusted
    ===========
    Yes, well-adjusted within the schema of patriarchy. Most males probably do not appreciate the extent to which women suffer inequalities and injustices in society. At the same time, men receive various forms of power and privilege, often unaware of the patriarchal setup that benefits them. I would say the current dominant model of manhood or masculinity is oppressive to women, as well as limiting for men themselves.

  231. turkleton December 17, 2012 at 8:12 pm #

    Complementing your own posts is L-A-M-E and sad, my dear. Are you really that desperate for affirmation?
    Again, like I said, you’re not even worth bothering with anymore, mostly because for some reason you just can’t stop yourself from red baiting anyone who disagrees with you. I don’t know what it is, exactly. It is like you stepped out of a time machine from 1951.
    Anyways. Too-da-loo.

  232. Radu Voda December 17, 2012 at 8:15 pm #

    Why is well adjusted something to be desired? I mean if the system is sick and/or evil, that just means the well adjusted one is a serf or complicit in the evil. I’m surprised to hear you say that since you love the outsiders and rebels so much. Obviously, one extreme breeds another; the best young men rebel consciously agains the cage that is prepared for them. Other do so unconsciously. And the worst go like this poor zombie.

  233. Newfie December 17, 2012 at 8:19 pm #

    “When Bush decided to attack Iraq, and the bombing of Baghdad started, were you watching on TV?”
    I don’t have a TV. I have not owned one for 45 years. I almost never watch TV. Or movies with excessive violence. The majority of television shows and movies have no redeeming artistic or cultural value. It isn’t healthy to watch depictions of violence endlessly as a form of entertainment.
    As for Iraq, the televised scenes of the opening salvos on Bagdad were a form of pornography. People are deluded. It isn’t naked bodies that are pornographic or even scenes of sex. The graphic depiction of violence as entertainment however, is a genre of pornography and a kind of sadism.
    I’m not saying that violence in the media causes mass murders. I’m saying that a society that derives pleasure from watching gratuitous graphic violence for the purpose of entertainment is a sick society.
    I don’t live in the USA by the way and I have little desire to go there. It’s becoming a rather scary place. I wonder if foreign visitors will stay away after this latest atrocity ?

  234. turkleton December 17, 2012 at 8:27 pm #

    I don’t know for sure. There is a whole complex constellation of topics surrounding these incidents. I made a previous post on this today, covering some of them.
    http://kunstler.com/blog/2012/12/america-the-horror-show.html#comment-457072
    But basically, my argument would be that other societies have mentally disturbed people and discontent males, too, but most don’t have to worry about this as much. Because the weaponry to do it is not so easily available. That’s the crux of my argument, mostly based on practical considerations rather than some complex analysis of motives, which are often more trivial than we might suppose.
    There is simply a desire in some people to “get back” at the world that has caused harm or pain. It is like a primitive revenge fantasy. I’m sure we’ve all been there. This isn’t that uncommon of a feeling.
    Coupled with this, the perp was caught up in a sort of cultural undertow, where violent solutions without repercussion are presented as the norm. There are reports that the shooter here spent most of his spare time playing FPS video games. So, in lieu of any other real stimulation, this shaped his mindset and, for lack of a better term, his morality, and along with the gun obsession of his mother, who reportedly took him to the range just days before all this happened, it basically set him on a certain path which ended in this tragedy. In other words, you can talk about blame, but what you might instead think about is this person’s reality and how it was shaped, e.g. what options were presented to him for solving his problems. In that light, there’s almost a feeling of inevitability here.
    In a video game, you respawn and get to kill again, ad infinitum. There is no smell of death, no psychological destruction, e.g. none of the very real and devastating consequences that usually accompany real life violence. Violence is essentially trivialized and made to feel normal, when it isn’t.
    I have played some of these games in the past, but now I lean towards more fantastical offerings when playing video games. Because it can be really disturbing how these shooters get inside your head . In other words, fantastical violence (orcs, knights, etc.) is much easier to mentally separate from reality, whereas these shooters that actually attempt to closely mimick real life in terms of the shooting/killing part, can have a more insidious and damaging effect.
    I can only imagine the effect of these types of games on someone who is struggling to separate fantasy from reality. Clearly (at least to me), these types of media play a role. But still, millions of people in other countries have access to the same games, so placing sole responsibility there seems unfounded.
    There have always been a lot of discontent males, but the cultural insinuations about what to do in this situation has changed or at least seems more sinister. In other words, movies and video games suggest that there are solutions and redemption through violence. How many times does the righteous perpetrator of the violence “win” in these settings? In some sense, I think that these young shooters are simply following along a set of guidelines laid out for them by our culture at large.

  235. asoka.. December 17, 2012 at 8:35 pm #

    I wonder if foreign visitors will stay away after this latest atrocity ?
    =============
    I can only imagine that some of the tarnish of America is gone. Here is South America people are no longer deluded about North America. They might go for short visits if they have family there, but not to live. They know the USA is full of “Locos sueltos”

  236. asoka.. December 17, 2012 at 8:38 pm #

    CORRECTION
    I can only imagine some the the luster of America is gone in the eyes of foreigners, it’s image now tarnished.

  237. turkleton December 17, 2012 at 8:40 pm #

    Maybe you can look at it through the lenses of the social contract. In this construction, we all give up some of our inherent rights to the state in order to have a functioning society, instead of violent anarchy. Everyone giving up their firearms is then part of the process of avoiding the “war of all against all,” which ubiquitous firearm ownership certainly facilitates.
    It is difficult to take away rights once they have been given but sometimes it is necessary. I just really think the 2nd Amendment is not working for us anymore. It has outlived its usefulness and does more harm than good. The other clauses in the Bill of Rights, such as freedom of speech and habeus corpus, are far more important, fundamentally. That’s why other countries get along just fine without a similar clause in their Constitutions.

  238. asoka.. December 17, 2012 at 8:42 pm #

    I am working directly with Progress4Conserving to limit immigration into the USA by telling everyone here in South America just how bad the USA is.
    I find far fewer words are needed now. They already seem to know about unemployment, discrimination, and the end of the American Dream.
    Still, I make sure they do not ever consider emigrating out of their home country to the USA. Progress4Conserving welcomes my collaboration.

  239. literod2 December 17, 2012 at 8:56 pm #

    With some sadness I say, excellent post Jim. You may be not more than 140 miles away from the tragedy, where as I am thousands of miles away, yet I feel that the monstrousness of that callous act has placed it in all of our backyards. I count myself lucky that I live in a gun suppressed society, as the industrial town I grew up in was, in some quarters, sometimes vicious and primitive enough in its violence without common ownership of rapid fire hand guns. I understand the fears of those who say that “without these weapons we can not defend ourselves from a state turned evil.” But the benefits gained of protection from a perceived future fear are overwhelmed by today’s conditions on the ground. What are the solutions between the extremes of total prohibition and almost total none gun control? The Powers that be and the gun lobby may not be trusted with that question. Is local decision making, perhaps the way forward ? A people’s town armoury perhaps? Not controlled by the police, but by the local population. It could become a focus for communal interaction of a better kind. Despite the horror and sorrow of Friday’s evil; I hope this latest crisis presents broader opportunities for all.
    I came across this article that may interest some here.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/dec/16/mayan-death-rebirth-date-planet-crisis
    Love peace and light.

  240. amick December 17, 2012 at 9:01 pm #

    The USA must do SOMETHING, as it is completely unethical to do nothing just because the horse has been let out of the barn. A buy-back program would be something as well as a ban on assault weapons.
    It seems likely that this monster of a killer was taking psychotropic medication. Many of these medications have possibilities of extreme side effects such as violent and suicidal thoughts. This combined with guns in the home is a recipe for complete disaster.
    Let’s not even mention the toxic body burdens that children are carrying these days and how this might also affect the brain (lead poisoning, extremely common, is also related to criminal behavior). It is a world in which autism is becoming more and more common which is related to the fact that children are vaccinated and medicated more now than ever before while breathing the air of a polluted earth. As adults, we must do everything NOW to protect our children. But first we must acknowledge what we are doing to them!

  241. Pucker December 17, 2012 at 9:12 pm #

    “The loose wheels on the bus go round and round…
    Round and round, round and round…
    The loose wheels on the bus go round and round…
    All through the town.”

  242. Buck's A Stud December 17, 2012 at 9:18 pm #

    Excellent and profound thoughts analysis Turkleton; thanks for taking the time.
    As an aside, I recall an old WW2 vet lamenting the men of the 60s. He stated that the ‘real men’ of America were killed in WW2 because of their bravery and valor in battle…and if they were still alive they would have solved ‘the hippy feminization of the American male’.

  243. Buck's A Stud December 17, 2012 at 9:20 pm #

    As far as the ethos of violence in American culture it’s been going on for quite a while now, and in some of the most unlikely places/mediums:
    “Jack Straw from Wichita
    Cut his buddy down
    Dug for him a shallow grave
    And layed his body down”






  244. Pucker December 17, 2012 at 9:22 pm #

    There is a process for amending the U.S. Constitution. Our so-called “leaders” have taken an oath to uphold the U.S. Constitution, so they’d better keep their oath, or face impeachment,or open rebellion.
    I’m afraid that our “community organizer” from Hawaii “…don’t know nuth’n about the Americans who live in the rural mountains of West Virginia, Kentucky, Alabama, Georgia, Tennessee, Mississippi, Lousiana, Texas, etc., etc. Our “community organizer” from Hawaii “…don’t eat black eyed peas, corn bread, collard greens, and barbeque.” And he “…don’t know nuth’n about how they covet their guns…..”

  245. lonvtlpp75 December 17, 2012 at 9:26 pm #

    fred perry pas cher

  246. asoka.. December 17, 2012 at 9:42 pm #

    We are stardust (million year old carbon)
    We are golden (caught in the devil’s bargain)
    And we’ve got to get back to the Garden.

  247. Radu Voda December 17, 2012 at 9:42 pm #

    The Israel Lobby wants to disarm us – but Israeli schools are full of armed teachers. Yet you respect them. So, are you one of them?

  248. stelmosfire December 17, 2012 at 9:44 pm #

    Well A, Not to be labeled a sick F-up but I believe a backpack weed sprayer and a propane torch would do the same thing.Evil and mental illness are endemic in the human race. Always has and always will. It was not that long ago a woman drowned her 5 kids. Satan told her to do it. Yea right! Susan Smith drowned her kids and tried to blame it on a black carjacker. I called bullshit as soon as I heard that story. People are just plain messed up. Admit it! Suicide bombers doing God’s work! Come on. They kill hundreds to get the virgins. I am not anti-Muslim, just anti violence. Crusades, burnings, gassing, firebombing, A-bombs!! Cynical! you betcha!Alright I have said enough. If God is out there please light up the sky and show me some proof. Rant over!

  249. Radu Voda December 17, 2012 at 9:48 pm #

    Ok sport be specific: which of Ten Planks of the Communist Manifesto do you disagree with? See Chapter Two for the planks.
    http://www.anu.edu.au/polsci/marx/classics/manifesto.html

  250. Radu Voda December 17, 2012 at 9:51 pm #

    Maybe Asoka can compliment your efforts by working to get the ones already here to go back to Latin America.

  251. Shakazulu December 17, 2012 at 9:56 pm #

    “the failure to protect little children from harm is the most shameful weakness an adult human can present…the Newtown Massacre to me is largely about the failure of men in America”
    You make me think Jim, which is why I like to read your blog, even though I don’t agree with many of your assumptions. When I was much younger and extremely more naive, I used to marvel at the mass of American men, and wonder why they allowed themselves to just passively watch their culture, their livelihoods, their respect, their rights, and ultimately their very lives be taken away inch by inch, and never resist. The lawyers have de-balled every male in this country. Examples of this are endless. Anyone who would sit by and watch it happen and do nothing in some way deserves everything they get. Sad as it is, it’s too late now to do anything about it.
    This is just the beginning of the culling of the herd. It will get unbelievably worse before it gets better. Either prepare to die, or prepare to survive. Either way, the preparation will make the coming events less painful.

  252. k-dog December 17, 2012 at 9:57 pm #

    I totally agree but they had the areal photograph of the house. The divorce was supposedly due to financial problems but 3100 square feet in a Connecticut suburb on two acres isn’t exactly roughing it in my world.
    The Mail may make things up but I’m thinking the photo was real.

  253. Moondog December 17, 2012 at 9:57 pm #

    Asoka, Thank you for your comments. Yes, ahimsa is the only answer. Be the change you wish to see…

  254. asoka.. December 17, 2012 at 9:58 pm #

    Gotta agree. Some people pretty messed up, including Muslims who blow up shit and blow themselves up. People killing kids in schools. God must be on vacation. :0
    Or, what the theists like my brother always say: God has a plan. WTF! a plan to murder kids!
    Or, they say: God is bigger than us. We are small and can’t understand the plan. No shit, Sherlock. I do not understand gods that kill or gods that allow killing. End of rant.

  255. progress4conserving December 17, 2012 at 10:06 pm #

    Wow, turk –
    You’ve done some very good analysis, today.
    Unfortunately, your analysis leads you to an extreme – disarming the civilian population of the United States – which must be opposed.
    It’s funny that I could easily agree with you concerning limits on magazine capacity, or certain specific weapons types. You could, perhaps easily, agree with me on beefing up our mental health system to produce a THOROUGH analysis of suicides and homicides that might be caused by use of SSRI’s.
    But since you advocate an extreme position, I must attempt to counter you – to wit; No new firearms laws in the US – only increased enforcement of those laws.
    —————————-
    Although, I don’t see a problem with allowing specially selected and trained teachers and/or administrators to carry firearms with which to defend their schools and their students.
    So, here’s one set of laws that should be amended for the US, already. As it stands, civilian law enforcement personnel are authorized to carry weapons inside the “gun-free zones” of a school campus.
    This will need to be amended to include selected non-law enforcement school system employees.
    This guy agrees:
    http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2012/12/17/county-police-chief-recommends-arming-school-personnel/
    When danger is seconds away, the police are only minutes away.

  256. progress4conserving December 17, 2012 at 10:13 pm #

    “Still, I make sure they do not ever consider emigrating out of their home country to the USA. Progress4Conserving welcomes my collaboration.”
    -asoka..sees the light!!!-
    Indeed asoka.., it is just about time that all of us humans decided to stay home – or go back home – to be with our families and help our friends and communities – – before it becomes too late for all of us.
    If it’s not already too late.
    Go home, people.

  257. Radu Voda December 17, 2012 at 10:17 pm #

    Thousands turning in their guns, but millions are buying them. Don’t buy the lies.
    http://www.infowars.com/americans-turn-in-guns-after-school-massacre/

  258. progress4conserving December 17, 2012 at 10:48 pm #

    There is a meme running through this week’s comment threads, promulgated by Turk and several others – that the best citizenry is an unarmed citizenry, and that “the Police” will always protect “us.”
    So, it’s interesting to look at police firearms training. Most police departments afford from 4 to 16 hours of firearms training for their officers, according to this source, which confirms what I see in my region.
    By contrast, teachers in the supposed backwards State of Georgia are required to receive a minimum of 50 hours of training, annually. So, there is likely to be plenty of time for selected teachers/administrators to spend some of those hours to train to meet LE minimums to carry firearms on campus.
    According to this article, which many of you may find interesting in many ways – police in Connecticut receive an average of only 3 (count ‘em THREE) hours of firearms training and practice every year. THREE?? Amazing.
    http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/Training-Obsolescence.pdf
    This article also references REASONS for the unfortunate tendency of PD’s to embrace DOD-style methods of interacting with their public in stressful situations. Very interesting stuff.

  259. SeaYoung December 17, 2012 at 10:53 pm #

    Metal detectors, armed teachers, prison architecture for schools? I will opt out. Thank you.

  260. turkleton December 17, 2012 at 10:53 pm #

    After gun massacres in the UK and Australia both of those countries instituted strict new gun controls, including bans on handguns and assault weapons. Neither has had a mass school shooting since.
    I’m afraid my position only appears extreme because you are caught up in the insane US gun culture. Arming teachers is a dumb fucking idea. There were 8 people accidentally shot by NYC police when bring down a shooter and are trained professionals. Please, sir, you are smarter than this.

  261. progress4conserving December 17, 2012 at 11:12 pm #

    “I’m afraid my position only appears extreme because you are caught up in the insane US gun culture.” -turk-
    That may or may not be valid, turk. I’m so far inside the “US gun culture” that I can only shoot straight. I live in a rural county. We have only two deputies on duty, most nights. It’s not uncommon for BOTH of them to be working a wreck or something at the far end of the county together – from which it is at least 15 minutes to my house, running lights and sirens. I don’t find the thought of living way out here without weapons to be AT ALL acceptable.
    At least you acknowledge that police are far from perfect, even though your text is garbled –
    “There were 8 people accidentally shot by NYC police when bring down a shooter and are trained professionals”
    Police aren’t the always-reliable solution, particularly as The Long Emergency strains resources and response times further and further.
    Get some training. Buy a gun.
    You won’t regret it.

  262. Godozo December 17, 2012 at 11:31 pm #

    I recognize that scene.
    That would be a shot of Calumet City, Illinois. the road would be State Street near where the main road turns…and turns to Dolton Road.
    The area has seen worse days since this photo. The businesses are now nail salons, liquor stores and arab-run convenience stores – the local population has been made narcoleptic by Judge Judy, Maury Povitch and a welfare-subsidized drug trade. The Dairy Queen and Baskins and Robbins (the 31 sign, for those who may not remember) are as obliterated from the scene as many people wish the early eighties era GM (and Ford – the white vehicle being obscured is an Escort hatchback) Vehicles were.
    And the smiling water tower? Has been painted breast cancer pink, for reasons listed in the name of the color I gave it. Don’t you just love political correctness – I would have preferred a reiteration of that silly smile on the water tower, if nothing else because it’s familiar.

  263. bigpete007 December 17, 2012 at 11:31 pm #

    Adam Lanza was also just a baby. Not trying to justify what he did, but history will identify him as a victim also of the same sickness affecting many. If his mother had survived she would surely have pitied him and noone would blame her. Let us have compassion for all. No more lynch mobs! The violence has got to stop! The Christian faith is not based on the Judaic laws of eye for eye. We cannot turn the cheek of course but we have to break the cycle of violence.

  264. progress4conserving December 17, 2012 at 11:35 pm #

    Get some good training. Buy an appropriate weapon for your situation. Keep that weapon properly secured at all times. Spend the money on ammo and instruction to keep your training current every year.
    These are investments in your life, and the life of your loved ones.
    -p4c, amended-

  265. bigpete007 December 17, 2012 at 11:37 pm #

    I agree Asoka. For example, we need to cultivate a spirit of forgiveness, humility, and patience. I’m not suggesting we should become doormats, but must we as a society fight every single point? Would it hurt to swallow one’s pride now and again? Is it more important to be right or to be happy?

  266. bigpete007 December 17, 2012 at 11:49 pm #

    For example on the bus the other night I was speaking on the phone. I never used to do it but I’ve gotten into the habit unfortunately. Guy shoots me the look of death and tells me I’m speaking too loud. For a moment I felt humiliated and mortified. I felt my ego’s claws preparing to attack but held back. It was Friday night just after the shootings. I realized the man was right so I hung up my call. I realized everyone on that bus maybe was uncomfortable as well. Public space is not personal space. I felt good that I could, although at first careless, in the end, behave respectfully of my fellow man and I honored myself by not acting like a selfish asshole with an exaggerated sense of entitlement as I have in the past.

  267. RLRead December 17, 2012 at 11:51 pm #

    Balls! Bravo!!!!!

  268. k-dog December 18, 2012 at 12:26 am #

    All this talk about guns. Dogs like me don’t really care for them. Bird dogs that’s their thing not mine. But the weeks column was not about guns. This weeks column was about the failure of men to raise men to be capable of solving problems in any other way than by use of force and if push comes to shove, violence.
    “We live in physical surroundings that are the perfect growth medium for serial killers, mass murderers, psychopaths with no feeling, and sado-masochists preoccupied only with the ritual orchestration of their own shame and guilt in the service of inflicting pain.”
    Qualities in thought and action related to goodness and excellence are not respected any more and nature will spank the little child society has become.
    America the Horror Show

  269. k-dog December 18, 2012 at 12:43 am #

    “They were once our heroes, our young and shining fathers, our sweet brothers, our tireless athletes, our fearless warriors, the brains of our institutions, the makers of our wares, the movers of our world.

  270. k-dog December 18, 2012 at 12:46 am #

    That last comment has a period that sources the quote. Next time a string of periods will be more obvious. For now hover over the single period and click if you wish.

  271. k-dog December 18, 2012 at 1:06 am #

    “– is exactly what you get in boys who have not developed competence in any reality-based, meaningful realm of endeavor — and I wouldn’t necessarily include school, such as it is in our time, as a reality-based, meaningful realm of endeavor, since it is mostly a brutally boring accreditation process.
    and while you’re at it, take a good hard look at the depressing and disgraceful industrial boxes that school is conducted in, these euphemistically-named “facilities.”
    Yet:
    One could envision the development of a school curriculum that centers around an empathic practice, particularly in courses such as history, social studies, literature, and political science…..
    (Same article, playing with periods and getting it right.)

  272. pequiste December 18, 2012 at 1:48 am #

    Jim, today’s essay cuts clean to the bone. Massive failures of our civilization’s foundational institutions are everywhere: family, government, education, industry, religion, finance etc. Corruption is king. Yet one aspect has seemingly escaped JHK’s gimlet eye. We have created nothing less than an all pervasive, hi-tech, death culture. I see the signs everywhere. Skull and gun signifiers are ubiquitous. From fashions at the mall to stickers on cars and every sort of vile video game and 75% of films – death symbols are unavoidable. Perhaps it is an organic development but I have a gnawing feeling this is by design. We are being manipulated by the forces that control the media to make the culling of the herd literally a self fulfilling prophesy. Pure evil and coming to your town soon.

  273. mountainsage December 18, 2012 at 2:22 am #

    So by your flawed logic cars should be limited to only approved models because speeding can’t be controlled. Your entire point is liberal flawed logic; limiting some item or act does not make the situation better. There are numerous examples throughout history; prohibition, the drug war to name two. If a person wants to kill, they will find a way and legality does not concern them in the least.

  274. mountainsage December 18, 2012 at 2:25 am #

    You do realize that none of the weapons used in the Connecticut shooting would be banned under an “assult rifle” law. A 223 Bushmaster is not an assult rifle. Learn the facts before running off at the mouth.

  275. Laurna December 18, 2012 at 2:49 am #

    While I agree with many of the complaints and observations JHK has expressed and elicited here, there is a simple reason the pharmaceutical companies will be sidelined and the psychiatric profession dispossessed and the marginalized given a new lease on life that makes us all feel a little safer. All behaviour, including aberrant behaviour, derives from the function of the middle ear, especially but not just the right middle ear. How the ear processes sound determines whether or not the left half of the brain can maintain dominance over the right half of the brain, which is the condition essential to learning and those states of consciousness we regard as mental health. This is sheer neurological science and it will eventually be widely known. Furthermore, the method of healing an ear that does not process sound normally is so ridiculously easy and inexpensive it is easier that prescribing glasses for vision defects. Music focused onto the eardrum through headphones for an appropriate amount of time stimulates the muscle of the middle ear until it is strong enough to process sound normally, at which point the fuller hearing process becomes self-sustaining. If some further assault damages the ear, a few sessions of focused listening will restore the muscle; it is an exercise program. Like any exercise program, it should not be overdone. It can be maintained by singing and listening to music, playing a musical instrument, or putting on the headphones a few times a week. The foundational work for this learning was done in France in the 1950s when the Tomatis Effect (1957) was proven to the French Academy of Medicine and French Academy of Sciences and Tomatis was decorated by the French government. Tomatis proved that the ear controls the voice. When healing our schizophrenic son with music, I learned some things that Tomatis and his colleague Guy Berard did not know about severe mental illness, although they were having some success healing it in children (autism). I learned that in normal people the ear is controlling the dominance of the left half of the brain (as well as the larynx). I have provided the neurological explanation for the cures and partial cures that have already been effected in over a million people treated with high-frequency sound, i.e., music. The mode of healing even very severe mental illness is within reach of just about everyone: headphones, a few CDs of violin music, and a means of playing the CDs. Yes, medications further damage the ear; check out Dr Ann Tracy’s website with its catalogue of massacres and murders in which SSRIs and other psychoactive chemicals are implicated. Most of them make half the people who take them suicidal or homicidal and the reason they do so is that they damage the ears (among other body parts)until left-brain dominance is undermined and the means of self-control lost. Berard proved that suicidal depression originates in the ear when he discovered all of his 235 suicidal patients had hearing deficits, usually in the left ear, at 2 and 8 kilohertz. He healed 97.7% of them, most of them within 10 days, i.e., with exposure an hour per day to those frequencies of sound. The healing of mental illness with sound has been proven across most of the “mental” syndromes you can name from dyslexia and autism to bipolarity and schizophrenia; not all of the specific frequency deficits have been pinned down yet because people like me just apply the treatment without being able to do the audiometric testing. The healing has been poorly reported because it takes place generally in private clinics. I have watched people heal their schizophrenia, bipolarity, depression, dyslexia,addictions, and chronic fatigue with music listened to through headphones. We stand on the frontier of unusual healing that can lead to the possibility of more people learning what folks here seem to regard as old-fashioned self-control. We have reason to hope a saner, more compassionate society can be forged, one in which the perceived “need” for guns will be obviated.

  276. Radu Voda December 18, 2012 at 3:15 am #

    Look at the ads of White Men portrayed as fools: Women (the biggest consumers) love those. That’s pretty damn profound when you think about it. Some people have fought back – a Man in MA demanded that whenever they taught Homo stuff, he be notificed so he could take his son out of schoo. They stopped once Gay marriage was legalized. He came to the school infuriated and they police were called and took him away in handcuffs. One man was furious about his son being beaten by Blacks. But nothing changed. He came to the school again to talk with the Principle and actually saw his son being assaulted. He rushed to his defence – and was of course arrested a bit later.
    Look at the mass resistance to Illegal Immigration – it gets nowhere because the Judges don’t respect referendums and rule against them. The Feds used the Army against Bussing protestors – they used their bayonets on U.S Citizens. So all of this has a “chilling effect” on Men. They know the Goverment is against them and if they fight, they will be destroyed. If we had risen as a Nation when they used bayonets in Little Rock, it might have worked. But we were already far to used to taking orders – and we still believed in the ultimate good of the Goverment and the legislative process.

  277. Radu Voda December 18, 2012 at 3:29 am #

    Turk sometimes has good info and insights, but ultimately he’s a square and Reality is a sphere. He routinely flies off at a tangent and ends up nowhere – like when he said Whites and Blacks are getting along. Or that it doesn’t matter if Blacks have lower IQ’s than Whites.
    I doubt he’s ever shot a gun or even held one in his hand. His thoughts on this have nothing to do with anything real – just his fantasy of the Global Society free of Violence and Whites.

  278. insufferable December 18, 2012 at 5:50 am #

    Jim is right about the lack of real men du e to the lack of the father figure and the family disintegration. Virtues are ridicululed. The imbiciles who would gladly give up their rights to defend themselves with their own weapons are so stupid that most probably if confronted with an evil person with a gun they would use their cell phone to call the police as the Guy shoots them. Did you Eve notice that inner city schools never have mass shootings……that’s because everyone is armed. If someone attacks someone rest assure they will have immediate justice there.
    This shooter is just another victim in our society glaring shining a bright light on our lack of understanding compassion and lack of virtues. By the way as a teacher of three decades our school system has descended from the cessation of school prayer and the teaching of morals to the proliferation of the beauty and acceptance of gay sex. If you cannot see the evil in that then your are just a part of the cancer destroying this once wonderful country. And Obama’s fake tears are insult to injury. A man who is supporting war sending men to kill and be killed is the ultimate mass murderer.

  279. progress4conserving December 18, 2012 at 8:48 am #

    We have the world we have, Turkelton.
    And we have the country we have.
    You say you may leave us for another country.
    We’ll miss you.
    I wouldn’t suggest Mexico unless you could afford to live on a heavily guarded private estate – which, of course, the more affluent Mexicans have to do.
    The average Mexican civilian is unarmed and helpless against the “drug gangs.” That has to be a big part of the problem in that sadly descending country.
    ===========================
    In other news, here’s another “mass shooting” that was in the making in the US. The shooter killed himself because he saw, simply SAW, an armed civilian. The civilian never fired a shot.
    http://www.kgw.com/news/Clackamas-man-armed-confronts-mall-shooter-183593571.html

  280. HenryMorgan December 18, 2012 at 8:48 am #

    Newtown is about 25 miles SW of here. Yesterday they began to bury some of the little ones, and it will continue all week. People are walking around with tears in their eyes.
    ‘Sandy Hook’ refers to a spot on the Housatonic River, which runs from North of Pittsfield, Mass., down thru Western Connecticut, and into Long Island Sound. There is an excellent book about the river and the towns on it, including Newtown; ‘Housatonic: Puritan River’, Chard Powers Smith, 1945.
    Newtown is a lovely place. When you first get off the Interstate you see Twin Colony diner, a great place to eat, really a throwback to the days before chain store restaurants, with daily specials, real meals made on premises, and pies you see glistening under glass when you enter. I had business interests in Newtown and would stop at Twin Colony whenever I went to town. Just down the road is the center of Newtown, a broad, green boulevard lined with well kept Colonial and Federal style homes, an American Flag mounted to an extraordinarily tall flagpole waving above.
    All the talk now is of Gun Control, Gun Control. But as Jim points out the toothpaste is already out of the tube. I figure the number of AR assault rifles, AK47s, Siminovs, Colt M1911s, and various models of 9mm pistols has to be near 30 million. What are they going to do about all of those?
    Somebody mentioned the events in Michigan in May, 1927, when a farmer, a member of the local school board, angry at the property taxes he had to pay to support the public school system, firebombed the local elementary school, killing 33 kids. Here is the odd thing: I have all the Hartford Courants from that summer . The day after the murders occurred it was the front page headline, but after that, it was never alluded to. It was out of the news.
    Just found out ‘reverend’ Sharpton is arriving today. I’m eager to hear what he has to say, above all.
    –HM

  281. GF Sutton December 18, 2012 at 9:09 am #

    We ameri-Kahns make merry as we sow terror around the world from our daisy chain of offense department bases, then wonder why it’s in our own backyard. Our entire video-game-industrial-perplex culture is one vast zombification technology. Who says we don’t make anything anymore in the good-ole United $tate?

  282. Nastarana December 18, 2012 at 9:38 am #

    http://hnn.us/articles/hollowing-out-america
    Might want to ask yourself who benefitted, Mr. Kunstler.
    Cause it sure as h*** wasn’t us cheese-doodle munching legion of overweight nobodies imposing our depraved tastes on sophisticated urbanites like you and yours.

  283. Scribblerlarry December 18, 2012 at 9:42 am #

    YOU’RE ALL IN DENIAL!
    I’ve read about a hundred of these comments. They blame everything from women’s lib to having a small penis for things like this. They’re all wrong. Somewhere, deep down inside of most of you, you KNOW what the real fault is; but your conditioning, since birth, won’t let you acknowledge it.
    Here it is:
    Your whole “American” society is messed up. And the mess is a lot deeper than unequal pay for women, or large divorce settlements, or gun control, or….. well the list is apparently endless.
    Look folks, a society – ANY society – comes into being to serve a purpose. That purpose is to provide a means for its members – in this case you folks – to jointly protect each other, to jointly perform certain tasks which benefit each one of you. Y’know, roads, hospitals, fire departments, police departments, defence, education, and so on. These are things that are better and more easily done by “the group” in most cases, than by the individual.
    Societies also provide the means of developing technological advances and of allowing companies to grow and prosper and provide members of the society a way to earn a living.
    Now, societies use systems; all kinds of systems and sub-systems, to accomplish these tasks. The two primary systems are the social system and the economic system.
    The social system has the purpose of determining the social goals, needs, and wants of the population. It is responsible for organizing things in such a way as to bring them about as efficiently as possible.
    The economic system determines how the society will afford the costs of achieving social goals. The capitalist system is the Rolls Royce of systems. It is the most productive, profitable system that there is…… When it is used right.
    When it is not used right, we get the mess we now have.
    The right way to use it is to make it totally subservient to the social system. It must never dominate the social system to the point where it uses the population merely to achieve economic goals. On the contrary, the social system must make use of the economic system to achieve the goals of the society.
    An economic system it a tool. Just as fire is a tool. It is a wonderfully efficient tool and is of great value. But it is also a very dangerous tool; again just like fire. If it gets out of control it does great damage to the society.
    I think most of us realize that our economic system has gotten out of control. It has established itself as the dominant system and forces the citizens to obey its rules, work for its goals, and be concerned with its advancement. It does this at the expense of the social good.
    The predatory greed form of capitalism is an abomination. Look around you at what it has done to the countries that it has come to dominate. People no longer matter. Only the almighty buck matters. No values are acceptable unless they promote economic gain. AND THAT GAIN IS NOT SHARED WITH THE SOCIETY OR ITS PEOPLE IN ANY MEANINGFUL WAY!!
    People have become so devalued in this $$ dominated society that they are nearly all bent, psychologically, to some degree or other. All human values are secondary to economic ones. This is wrong. This is horribly, terribly, incredibly, inhumanly wrong.
    And this is at the root of so many citizens needing therapy to get through their days. And so many, who don’t get therapy, going off the rails. That they do so is no surprise, if you think about it. That some just give up an commit suicide is obvious. That some go into a sudden rage and take out a school full of children is just another symptom of this psychologically unbalanced, economically dominated society.
    As long as money is valued more than people are, this is going to be the hallmark of the society. It’s time the society began to get the horse back in front of the cart. Get the social system back on top of the economic system. Put the needs of people ahead of the needs of wealth accumulation. Organize things so that all people of the society benefit from its economic system instead of just a few. Eliminate unhealthy mental pressures created by trying to accommodate a predatory economic form of capitalism.
    The problem is not “lack of jobs” – the problem is lack of income! Our modern society cannot any longer provide enough decent jobs for its population. So it MUST provide a basic alternate income. It is rich enough to do so. Easily.
    We don’t need to do something stupid, like adopt socialism or fascism, or communism. We just need to insist that our perfectly good capitalist system be put to work to serve all of our society instead of just a lucky few. Trust me; it can do so. It can do so so well that it’ll amaze the people and confound the socialists.
    We know that we need to do this. We are smart enough to figure out how to do this.
    But do we have the will to do this………?

  284. The Mook December 18, 2012 at 10:02 am #

    Obama will solve the gun issue next. He is almost done bending for the rich. $400,000 spoiled brats yesterday, Boehner and the boys tommorow. R.I.P campaign promises.

  285. The Mook December 18, 2012 at 10:05 am #

    Good Morning America leads the way with this twisted view of heroes. Why are they in Connectict on Monday morning stressing out and frightening more kids? Get back to Christmas for our unaffected Christian kids.

  286. literod2 December 18, 2012 at 10:25 am #

    I’ve just seen a report in the Independant that says,
    “When investigators found his computer at the house, the hard drive had been smashed, presumably by Lanza.”
    This seems odd, why would Lanza go to the bother of smashing his hard drive if presumably, he knew that he would be taking his own life in the very near future? If he felt justified about his heinous actions, would he not want the world to know, different case I know, but that was the case with Norway’s Breivik.
    Was someone, via the web, influencing his decisions and actions and either got rid of the evidence, or got Lanza to do that?

  287. nighthorse December 18, 2012 at 10:30 am #

    I just wanted to acknowledge Scribblerlarry for his interesting and insightful post, and although I disagree with his idea that capitalism is the best economic system, his broader point is well-taken. A healthy has clear priorties that promote the greater good. American society has money-based priorities that benefit an ever smaller and smaller proportion of the society. Of course, there’s trouble. How could their not be? Some of the most decent people I know are eaten up with self-hatred. If you’re not rich, you’re nobody, and life after collapse will be a worse hell our current hell unless the issues Scribblerlarry discussed are addressed.

  288. ront December 18, 2012 at 11:32 am #

    The following is a portion of a message given in America during a visit in the 30’s:
    “The root of all our difficulties, individual and social, is self-interest. It is this, for example, which causes corrupt politicians to accept bribes and betray the interests of those whom they have been elected to serve; which causes bootleggers to break, for their own profit, a law designed, whether wisely or not, to help the nation as a whole; which causes people to connive, for their pleasure, in the breaking of that law, thus causing disrespect for law in general, and increasing crime tremendously; which causes the exploitation of great masses of humanity by individuals or groups of individuals seeking personal gain; which impedes the progress of civilization by shelving inventions which would contribute to the welfare of humanity at large, simply because their use would mean the scrapping of present, inferior equipment; which, when people are starving, causes wanton destruction of large quantities of food simply in order to maintain market prices; which causes the hoarding of large sums of gold when the welfare of the world demands its circulation. These are only a few examples of the way self-interest operates to the detriment of human welfare. Eliminate self-interest, and you will solve all your problems, individual and social.”
    – Meher Baba

  289. k-dog December 18, 2012 at 11:37 am #

    “The very notion that others matter — much less that those others are worth fighting for — has been relegated to the dustbin of history.”

  290. bossier22 December 18, 2012 at 11:48 am #

    one can only hope they stay away. especially the ones who want to live here. overpopulation is adding to the toxic mess we have. the population of this country has always been unruly and difficult to control. i think many gun owners would resists gun control efforts just as others ignored prohibition and drug laws. the marine corp could not have enforced the 55 mile an hour speed limit.

  291. jonathanss. December 18, 2012 at 12:02 pm #

    As long as money is valued more than people are, this is going to be the hallmark of the society. It’s time the society began to get the horse back in front of the cart. Get the social system back on top of the economic system. Put the needs of people ahead of the needs of wealth accumulation.

    Powerful prose. Much of our society places human value in relation to net worth. This is a consumerist society, which the corporate media champions.

  292. flying picket December 18, 2012 at 12:09 pm #

    Although I don’t believe James that you are committed to the nexus between good moral values created by the precepts of the major religions, such as, most notably, Judaeo-Christianity, and the virtues that they, in turn, develop, you’ve sure nailed it, in that it is most seminally a spiritual sickness, from which all else, via the worship of Mammon and Moloch, issues.
    Is Mexico now the way it is because of the US? The reason I ask is that if you want to see a metaphor for the enormous relative degeneracy of the US in comparison with the Mexico of not so long ago, watch the original version of the small budget Mexican film, Mariacci, and the Hollywood version.
    In the latter, some moron empties endless rounds of automatic fire inside a bar, gradually cutting the decor and furniture to sawdust and little pieces. How the roof remains on is a puzzle. The sheer mindlessness of what the director was trying to put over takes your breath away. That super-hero syndrome again. Compare it with the immeasurably more subtle, adult and meaningful Mexican original, and weep.
    It all brings to mind the words in an article in the French periodical, La Liberte, in 1932, in response to some political issue between the US and Europe:
    “Does this government, which obeys gangsters, which capitulates helpless before thieves and assassins of babies in the cradle, dare to assume such a height of moral authority that it thinks it can dictate to Europe and France? Americans are the only race which passed directly from barbarism to decadence without knowing civilization.”
    The Italian saying, however (and they have long experience of corrupt government at every level) that a fish rots from the head down, evidently applies to the US, here, as well. If the ordinary Joe tends to be degenerate, his leaders will bear major responsibility for that, for sure.
    I wonder what effect, your force-fed frankenfoods is having on the physical and mental health of your young people. Surely, however, the worst effects would emanate from those insane computer games, in which I gather the object is for the heroic protagonist (guess who?) to kill the most opponents. But perhaps I’m wrong on that score.

  293. ront December 18, 2012 at 12:28 pm #

    Well said, both of you.
    “Much of our society places human value in relation to net worth. This is a consumerist society, which the corporate media champions.”
    And not only champions but effectively sells those upside down values.

  294. driften December 18, 2012 at 12:34 pm #

    I wonder what parallels exist here with the knife/cleaver attacks of children in China? Living in an insane society hardly fosters sanity.

  295. anglo December 18, 2012 at 12:39 pm #

    Excellent post .

  296. anglo December 18, 2012 at 12:46 pm #

    “Does this government, which obeys gangsters, which capitulates helpless before thieves and assassins of babies in the cradle, dare to assume such a height of moral authority that it thinks it can dictate to Europe and France? Americans are the only race which passed directly from barbarism to decadence without knowing civilization.”
    This quote is as valid today as it was then.It applies to virtually all countries subjected to the american “culture” (i.e. a good part of the world)

  297. Radu Voda December 18, 2012 at 1:03 pm #

    Gerard Depardieu renounced his French Citizenship because of taxes. He was called greedy by the French Elite and responded in a public letter printed in the mass media. He said he was not born rich and worked since he was 14. He’s simply had it with paying 85% of his income in taxes. He said he has paid something like 135 million in Euros over the course of his career. After reading the letter, 70% of the public supports him.

  298. Radu Voda December 18, 2012 at 1:08 pm #

    So are people who prepare for disaster “hoarders”? That’s what the Mass Media is trying to say about Landa’s mother. See how it works? Conflate the murders with the Mother’s storing supplies and voila – people who prepare are criminals. Never waste a crisis!

  299. shastatodd December 18, 2012 at 1:23 pm #

    “It has to pass through a tribulation that demands the reemergence of adult male humans who know how to be men in more than one dimension. ”
    http://mkpusa.org/
    We help men grow.
    Because the world needs grown up men.
    The ManKind Project flies in the face of rigid stereotypes about the “Sensitive New Age Man” AND the “Macho Man”. We ask men to go right up to the edge – and beyond it – in a culture that seems to be comfortable with mediocrity and passivity from men. We ask men to stop living a vicarious adventure through their TV’s and step into a real time adventure to win back their passion for life. We ask men to confront the real problems in their lives and to get 100% honest about who they are. Some men have a really hard time doing that. Many of us did too, but we took the risk anyway.
    Leaders wanted. Men willing to step through fear and into the challenge of their lives. Men not afraid to revolt against repressive social norms, take off their masks and break through their personal barriers. Men ready to take real risks and step into their full power. Men not afraid to inhabit ALL the characteristics required of men in changing times; resiliency, integrity, courage, creativity, innovation, adaptability, compassion, empathy, radical self-responsibility, inclusivity, generosity and respect.
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  300. Radu Voda December 18, 2012 at 1:36 pm #

    So in other words, only men are affected by greed? Women would never use a male person to better than themselves, marrying for money and then cashing out? Wow, have you swollowed the camel. You probably believe in “heroic single mothers” too, right?
    Society is so far gone that Women themselves believe their own stratagems to be virtue. One Feminist columnist in Europe condemned Anders Breivik’s father for abandoning the family. He replied publicly saying, My wife refused to allow me access and the courts backed her up. Anders Beivkik himself was sickened by the promiscuity and irresponsibility of his Mother and sisters. His mother was disabled because of an incurable venereal disease leaving him beside himself with grief and shame.

  301. Radu Voda December 18, 2012 at 1:44 pm #

    No. First we get our rights back. Until then we coast, laughing at the grief of Euro-American women who trashed us as they go childless to their lonely graves mourned only by their cats. For women, happiness is about love. But they chose power. For men, happiness begins (not ends) with power. Thus we were deprived of this by women in league with the state. Now we take it back. And – the women will cry for mercy in the end. And only then will we relent and create a new Patriarchy – one that does not encourage men to throw their lives away in work and war.
    After all, the Old Patriarchy was Anti-Human, and thus just as much anti-male as anti-female. This was acknowledged by early Feminism, but in practice they sought as much revenge against us as they could get – fully enabled by the State.

  302. turkleton December 18, 2012 at 2:03 pm #

    What is your point, exactly? I could live in Germany, UK, or Japan, all of which have far less gun crime than this insane asylum. And they all have strict gun control. Simply having strict firearms laws on the books doesn’t create a safe society. But proper enforcement and low availability of weapons does. This much should be clear by looking at the statistics of the 1st world nations with low gun crime rates.
    “We have the world we have, Turkelton.
    And we have the country we have.”
    Oh, that’s pretty rich coming from you. Just accept it, is that what you suggest?
    You’re the guy who wants to completely change US immigration policy so that no one is let in from now on. Right now 1 million come in per year. So that’s a pretty big change.
    Yet I’m the one who should simply accept how things are in terms of civilians being able to get their crazy little hands on Bushmaster assault rifles, which wouldn’t be available anyways if the ban hadn’t been allowed to lapse in 2004.

  303. turkleton December 18, 2012 at 2:10 pm #

    Yeah, the problem is prog that an armed citizenry is not going to protect you either and may just cause more harm than good. Where was the citizen army in all of these incidents?
    Remember that time a month or two ago in NYC where a shooter was brought down by a bunch of police? They accidentally shot 8 innocent bystanders in the process. And you think a bunch of concealed carry wannabe Dirty Harries will do any better?
    Your analysis of police training is flawed. Do you assume that they take the minimum amount? A typical police veteran of 10-15 years only has 17 hours of firearms/range training? Really?
    No, my solution would be removing the most egregious weapons from the streets in the first place, especially military assault rifles and handguns. This has worked fine in the UK and Australia, especially in the latter country where over a half million weapons were bought back by the government. We, unfortunately, are hampered from taking these logical steps by our backward culture and archaic Constitution (or at least the out-moded 2nd Amendment).

  304. asoka.. December 18, 2012 at 2:10 pm #

    The times they are a changin’, Mountainsage. The type of weapon does matter. Even congressmen who received 100% approval ratings from the NRA are changing their minds:
    The Bill of Rights does not guarantee gun manufacturers the absolute right to sell military style high caliber semi-automatic assault rifles with high capacity magazines to whoever the hell they want. –Joe Scarborough, former congressman
    The 2nd amendment was originally intended to allow well regulated militias … to defend from massacres, not to enable massacres.

  305. turkleton December 18, 2012 at 2:15 pm #

    “I figure the number of AR assault rifles, AK47s, Siminovs, Colt M1911s, and various models of 9mm pistols has to be near 30 million. What are they going to do about all of those?”
    Buy them back at more than cost (thus providing a financial incentive) and restrict and/or heavily tax the supply of their ammunition. This will slowly decrease the availability of them over time. I believe the first approach was used in Australia, quite successfully.
    It won’t completely remove them but the goal is to at least try to make them less easy to obtain, which this would accomplish.
    The government could also shutdown the manufacturers so that no more were made within our borders.
    It would be a good start.
    Of course, all this would be considered government overreach, but that’s something like what it would take to actually make a difference.

  306. stelmosfire December 18, 2012 at 2:22 pm #

    HI Jonathan, I don’t know if I can agree with your statement “Our society places human value in relation to net worth. This is a consumerist society, which the corporate media champions.” Some of the best people I know don’t have the proverbial “pot to piss in”. Some of the biggest a-holes I know are loaded with cash, they are still ass-holes. Just because the media jams it down our throats does not make it true. Just look at the shows on TV such as ” Cribs” the premise being if I don’t have a $20,000,000.00 home you are worthless. “Housewives of Beverly Hills” a bunch of whining botox bitches. .The gullible accept it ,but anyone with an IQ above 100 sees right through the ruse. Unfortunately that is part of the problem. The dumbing down of the common man (or woman) for profit.

  307. Radu Voda December 18, 2012 at 2:23 pm #

    One picture is worth a thousand words. And one video is worth a thousand picture. So See! Feminsts in action physically attacking men and See! them insulting and slandering men in emotional pain who came to hear Warren Farrell speak on Men’s rights.
    http://www.the-spearhead.com/2012/12/09/feminists-caught-on-film/

  308. turkleton December 18, 2012 at 2:31 pm #

    “Get some good training. Buy an appropriate weapon for your situation. Keep that weapon properly secured at all times.”
    prog, the statistics tell us that you are about 12 times more likely to have that firearm in your house used to kill someone other than an intruder, like a friend or family member.
    That’s because instances of home intrusion where the home owner is actually in the house at the time and confronts an assailant are relatively rare, compared with incidents when a gun might be discharged accidentally or used in domestic violence or suicide. The latter is far more likely to occur than the former.
    Contrary to the popular myth, most criminals (e.g. burglars) are not so dumb that they’ll enter a house that they think is inhabited. They generally check to see if someone is home first.
    Is this comparison a bit off or perhaps doctored by the gun control advocates? Possibly. I’ll concede the point, in advance. But if the statistical comparison is even remotely in the ballpark, let’s say generously at a 1:1 ratio between the chance of each scenario, then, a priori, keeping a firearm in your house completely negates the purpose you have ascribed to it, e.g. keeping you and your loved ones safe, and most probably it makes them less safe.
    The rampage from this week’s blog post is a case in point. The mother kept guns in her house because she was afraid of society falling apart. In other words, I guess she imagined herself fighting off armed home intruders. Yet, she ended up getting killed by her own weapon and her son died by them as well. He suicided himself after the rampage. This anecdotally backs up my point, which is also supported by the statistics.
    The real question is, are you willing to gamble with these odds when they’re stacked against you? To what end? Is your desire to keep firearms driven by rational analysis? Or does it have more to do with constructed myths and emotions like fear?
    So, no, I’ll pass on this little game of Russian Roulette and not keep one of these in my home, thanks.

  309. stelmosfire December 18, 2012 at 2:39 pm #

    Let us also ban Violent Movies, TV shows, and Video games. Also pay for free birth control and government payments to NOT have kids. Sterilize the dummies. Where does it end. Tjere is no solution. People are FD up. Plain and simple. Yea I forgot Auatralia is exempt form this BS
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Arthur_massacre_(Australia)

  310. turkleton December 18, 2012 at 2:41 pm #

    We could go really deep into this. Freud said that man in civilization is discontent, by his nature, and I believe there’s some kernel of truth to this. So this problem may never truly be solved. The structures of society will always chafe at us, in one way or another.
    But providing citizens easy access to military style assault weaponry does not seem to help at all. The primary contrast I saw was that in China no one died in the knife attacks, whereas here, a mentally disturbed young man was able to kill almost 30 people because his mom thought she was the Punisher and had a bunch of firearms lying about the house.
    The damage that can be easily wrought by one person can certainly be limited by restricting access to certain destructive tools, but we might have to modify our conceptions of freedom and liberty in order to do it.

  311. turkleton December 18, 2012 at 2:55 pm #

    O-k. Too much coffee today, bubba?
    “Let us also ban Violent Movies, TV shows, and Video games.”
    Clearly, these are not the primary problem here. The citizens of other countries have access to this type of media, too, but they don’t have nearly as many of these incidents. So the causative link is weak, at best.
    “Also pay for free birth control”
    That’s a reasonable proposal, actually. Why not? It is already done, to some extent.
    “and government payments to NOT have kids.”
    Er, okay, that would be politically unpopular and a bit of a stretch. Not sure where you’re going with this. I would be down for NOT giving tax breaks to people simply because they choose to breed. Maybe you could have free, er, neutering.
    “Where does it end. Tjere is no solution. People are FD up. Plain and simple.”
    So let’s just give up and throw our hands in the air, doing nothing. I’m not okay with this.
    We’re not talking about enacting 1984. I suggest reasonable proposals for ameliorating this specific issue, not solving all of humanity’s problems in one go.
    And yes, (some) people are kinda F’d up. So let’s NOT give them access to military assault weaponry at the Wal-mart. A reasonable proposal, no?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Arthur_massacre_(Australia)
    Well, you inadvertantly support my point here, because the assault weapons ban in Australia was, as far as I know, enacted after this very incident or one like it, which (if you read the Wiki) was in 1996. That’s 16 years ago, and nothing like this has occurred in Australia recently (AFAIK). We have one of these every couple months.

  312. Conelrad December 18, 2012 at 3:31 pm #

    Mr. Kunstler:
    The same day your commentary appeared so did “The Lesson of Newtown – Time to Charge for the True Cost of Gun Ownership,” by Michael Olenick (at
    http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2012/12/michael-olenick-the-lesson-of-newtown-time-to-charge-for-the-true-cost-of-gun-ownership.html ).
    In a nutshell, Mr. Olenick proposes placing a tax on the externalities of gun ownership, making such ownership onerous and providing funds for compensating gun victims without coming up against the Supreme Court’s current interpretation of the Second Amendment.
    I think you’d find reading the entire post worthwhile.

  313. ExtraO December 18, 2012 at 3:34 pm #

    A young, disturbed man takes his father’s Hummer H2, runs down his dad in the driveway, then heads downtown where he drives the Hummer over 25 people at several bus tops and then dies crashing into a bridge abutment in the ensuing police pursuit.
    Washington’s carefully reasoned response: outlaw Hummers, of course!

  314. abprosper December 18, 2012 at 3:41 pm #

    Seem like the result of a sick society, divorce and untreated mental illness to me.
    While these poor children didn’t what happened as a society, we deserve it.
    We are a society without a foundation of well anything, a proposition nation, its little wonder it happens and a bigger wonder its not more common.
    Of course the rub is, we are functionally to stupid to fix anything. We’d rather rehash to idiot gun debate than ask how to heal whats wrong with us. No scratch that, we can’t even ask the right questions.

  315. Dwayne Deslatte December 18, 2012 at 3:54 pm #

    “My Grandma Said The Good Old Days Were No Damn Good” http://stuckinthemiddlewithu.com/2012/12/10/my-grandmother-said-the-good-old-days-were-no-damn-good/

  316. turkleton December 18, 2012 at 4:06 pm #

    “idiot gun debate”
    Why is it idiotic? Several other countries in the wake of such tragedies implemented sensible and rather restrictive new gun laws, and they saw their gun crime rates decrease. Australia’s homicide rate by gun fell by 60% after an assault weapons ban. Tell me exactly why this is such a poor solution.
    “Seem like the result of a sick society, divorce and untreated mental illness to me.”
    Who cares what it seems like to you? You’re just changing the subject. Plenty of other societies have similar problems and do not suffer from nearly as much gun violence. We have orders of magnitude more gun murders in this country than other comparaly rich nations. Why? It isn’t so easy to acquire the weaponry in those other places. Simple, really.
    Fact of the matter is that it wouldn’t have mattered that his mental illness supposedly went untreated (it didn’t) or that his parents were divorced had he not been able to access a Bushmaster rifle so easily. This would never have happened. The factors you mention are purely secondary.
    To mangle an old saying, it’s the guns, stupid!
    “we are functionally to stupid to fix anything.”
    How would you legislate to improve a “sick society,” “divorce,” and “untreated mental illness”? What exactly would you enact in terms of law? The legislature can only affect the culture at large to a certain degree.
    It is far easier to attack the source of the problem here, which should be obvious if you’re not intent on derailing the debate from the get go.

  317. turkleton December 18, 2012 at 4:09 pm #

    “No scratch that, we can’t even ask the right questions.”
    Tell me, what are the right questions. You have your right of free speech. We’re all ears. Hit me.
    I have a few of my own…
    Why on earth should we as a society allow civilians to purchase and keep in their homes military-grade assault rifles? What possible positive purpose does this serve? Why do we think someone’s right to own a certain unnecessary and dangerous product is worth the cost of these massacres?

  318. Bustin Jay December 18, 2012 at 4:20 pm #

    A mick replied “Let’s not even mention the toxic body burdens that children are carrying these days and how this might also affect the brain (lead poisoning, extremely common, is also related to criminal behavior). ”
    Yes, indeed. I thought it interesting, the article in MotherJones, where researchers are looking at correllations between violent crime, IQ and dropout rates between the use of tetra-ethyl lead in automobile gasoline over the last 50 years.
    The irony is that lead may have been the culprit, resulting in poisoning the young Adam Lanza, making him mentally disabled. Then, Adam Lanza in turn, pumps lead into children.
    Today, airplanes flying overhead are distributing a fine mist of this neurotoxin which falls down and accumulates in our bodies, leading to life-long detrimental effects at blood serum concentrations far lower than previously thought dangerous.
    If the administration needs shocking evidence of mass environmental poisoning leading to thousands of deaths and effected lives, it doesn’t need to look far and it doesn’t need a freakish event of this type to protect people.

  319. driften December 18, 2012 at 4:27 pm #

    I’m with ya, Turk. If Lanza didn’t have such efficient tools he wouldn’t have done such an extensive job. Think we’re gonna get any substantive gun control though? The USA is one of a very few rat-fart nations on the PLANET that refuses to sign the anti-landmine proliferation treaty, so don’t hold your breath. The industrialists must not be damaged.

  320. turkleton December 18, 2012 at 4:47 pm #

    Come on, man. That is a lot of speculation and hypotheticals, when the means by which these massacres occur is so clear. The Bushmaster rifle used here was also used in the Aurora, CO shooting. Can we please stay focused and on topic? I’m not saying there isn’t some truth in what you wrote, but, geez, I mean if lead poisoning or some other environmental effect were to blame here, it would likely be a problem not isolated in the rich countries to the US, alone. But it mostly is. That should tell you something. It isn’t what’s in our water or air. The problem is much simpler than this.

  321. progress4conserving December 18, 2012 at 5:06 pm #

    “What is your point, exactly? I could live in Germany, UK, or Japan, all of which have far less gun crime than this insane asylum.”
    -turk-
    The point is that as the Long Emergency continues to increase its effects, that the United States if far more likely to devolve into something more like today’s Mexico – than it is to be like a devolving Germany, UK, or Japan.
    Primary reasons – polyglot population already in serious resource conflict here,when compared to those idyllic, peaceful, gun free nations you name. Plus more open spaces* in the US that are likely to become ungovernable at some point in the future.
    And here, turk, I can almost hear your mental wheels turning, as you prepare to make some crack about doomers, preppers, and the unfortunate Ms. Lanzo. Before you take that line of logic, remember that many of JHK’s writings, and this CFN comment thread, especially – exist to examine the devolution of civil society in these United States. IOW, if you see no possibility of scarce fossil fuels and contraction of law enforcement capabilities in the US – why are you here on CFN?
    We’ve already got one asoka..which seems more than sufficient for most of the posters here.
    *and I’ll get back to you on the “open spaces,” in a bit. Remember I back up to thousands and thousands of acres of National forest. I hate to be the one to break it to you – but, there really are evil men in the world, turk. Some of them hang out in the National Forests of the US. When you make noises about disarming all US citizens – you pose a personal threat to me and my (widely dispersed) neighbors, which must be countered.
    And it’s interesting – still – that I can concede many points to the gun control proponents. But that’s not enough for you. You want ALL the damn guns.

  322. asoka.. December 18, 2012 at 5:27 pm #

    this CFN comment thread, especially – exist to examine the devolution of civil society in these United States. IOW, if you see no possibility of scarce fossil fuels and contraction of law enforcement capabilities in the US – why are you here on CFN? We’ve already got one asoka..which seems more than sufficient for most of the posters here.

    1) USA civil society is not devolving.
    2) We have several Asoka handles floating about, but only one original: Asoka.. dot dot
    3) Oil reserves in the USA are at an all time high.
    4) Turkleton has NEVER stated he “wants ALL the damn guns” … your paranoia is running high.
    5) Turkleton made a rational argument that you are actually endangering your family by having guns in your home.
    6) Are you trying out for the RI title? (it’s a rhetorical question, P4C)
    7) Legal immigration into the USA is not excessive.
    8) Illegal immigration from Mexico is at ZERO. The number entering illegally is offset by the number who are fed up with our “locos sueltos” and are voluntarily going back. Result: ZERO immigration.

  323. progress4conserving December 18, 2012 at 5:37 pm #

    “prog, the statistics tell us that you are about 12 times more likely to have that firearm in your house used to kill someone other than an intruder, like a friend or family member.”
    -turk-
    Nice comparison of chickens to chainsaws, turk.
    I said, “good training..appropriate weapon..secured..continued training…”
    And you compare all of that to the average American goober-head who has one loaded Saturday night special, forgotten in a drawer – which moulders there for years as ticking bomb, useful for suicide or the random unplanned killing of a spouse eating chips in the kitchen.
    =======================
    “Contrary to the popular myth, most criminals (e.g. burglars) are not so dumb that they’ll enter a house that they think is inhabited. They generally check to see if someone is home first.”
    -turk, discovering common sense at last-
    Finally a point of agreement. But do you know WHY this is the case. It is because enough homes in the US are presumed to be armed BY THE CRIMINALS – that those criminals seek out homes without people in them.
    I prefer to keep it that way.
    I have no desire to live in a land where any common or uncommon criminal can break into homes totally secure in the knowledge that the homeowners lack defensive firearms – because they were made illegal by the Government.

  324. progress4conserving December 18, 2012 at 5:43 pm #

    see what I mean?

  325. Radu Voda December 18, 2012 at 5:52 pm #

    I declare you the winner with your moderate conservative lite viewpoint. Now read what the Founders said. Liberals want guns limited to sport and hunting (for now, until the next stage of disarmament), Conservatives for that and crime, Patriots for all the preceding and to keep the Goverment humble and to warn foreign enemies away.

  326. asoka.. December 18, 2012 at 6:01 pm #

    Listen up, goober-head, they are called FACTS, and they disprove your initial premise upon which you base your fear and loathing.
    Gun violence is down.
    Gun ownership is down.
    Violent crime is declining now for ten years.
    Check out the article I linked to up thread:
    The Declining Culture of Guns and Violence in the United States
    Don’t be carried away by the news headlines. Look at actual historical data.
    Things are getting better.
    It’s all good. (said without sarcasm)

  327. turkleton December 18, 2012 at 6:01 pm #

    What a fatuous reply. There are all kinds of ways that guns can cause harm to others. These include accidental discharge, suicide, and assault, and the point is that even with precautions you’re more likely to cause harm by having one around than protect yourself. That’s my point. You are the one who thinks that the overall statistics don’t apply to you, because, somehow, you’re special.
    “Nice comparison of chickens to chainsaws, turk.”
    Chickens to chickens, my friend. I’m sorry you want to muddy it up so much but facts is facts.

  328. GAZ December 18, 2012 at 6:02 pm #

    .
    The Gun is Civilization
    by Maj. L. Caudill USMC (Ret)
    Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force. If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of either convincing me via argument, or force me to do your bidding under threat of force.
    Every human interaction falls into one of those two categories, without exception. Reason or force, that’s it.
    In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively interact through persuasion. Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction, and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as it may sound to some.
    When I carry a gun, you cannot deal with me by force. You have to use reason and try to persuade me, because I have a way to negate your threat or employment of force.
    The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 100-pound woman on equal footing with a 220-pound mugger, a 75-year old retiree on equal footing with a 19-year old gang banger, and a single guy on equal footing with a carload of drunk guys with baseball bats. The gun removes the disparity in physical strength, size, or numbers between a potential attacker and a defender.
    There are plenty of people who consider the gun as the source of bad force equations. These are the people who think that we’d be more civilized if all guns were removed from society, because a firearm makes it easier for a [armed] mugger to do his job. That, of course, is only true if the mugger’s potential victims are mostly disarmed either by choice or by legislative fiat–it has no validity when most of a mugger’s potential marks are armed.
    People who argue for the banning of arms ask for automatic rule by the young, the strong, and the many, and that’s the exact opposite of a civilized society. A mugger, even an armed one, can only make a successful living in a society where the state has granted him a force monopoly.
    Then there’s the argument that the gun makes confrontations lethal that otherwise would only result in injury. This argument is fallacious in several ways. Without guns involved, confrontations are won by the physically superior party inflicting overwhelming injury on the loser.
    People who think that fists, bats, sticks, or stones don’t constitute lethal force watch too much TV, where people take beatings and come out of it with a bloody lip at worst. The fact that the gun makes lethal force easier works solely in favor of the weaker defender, not the stronger attacker. If both are armed, the field is level.
    The gun is the only weapon that’s as lethal in the hands of an octogenarian as it is in the hands of a weight lifter. It simply wouldn’t work as well as a force equalizer if it wasn’t both lethal and easily employable.
    When I carry a gun, I don’t do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I’m looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don’t carry it because I’m afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn’t limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force. It removes force from the equation… and that’s why carrying a gun is a civilized act.

  329. turkleton December 18, 2012 at 6:03 pm #

    “if you see no possibility of scarce fossil fuels and contraction of law enforcement capabilities in the US – why are you here on CFN?”
    This is precisely the reason that it would make sense to have a kind of internal armistice and disarming, so that if and when TSHTF the nation is not essentially just an armed madhouse.
    But, yeah, you’re probably right. We missed the boat on that one.

  330. turkleton December 18, 2012 at 6:05 pm #

    “People who argue for the banning of arms ask for automatic rule by the young, the strong, and the many, and that’s the exact opposite of a civilized society.”
    This is a moronic assertion. Have you ever been to Japan? There are almost no guns there, and it is one of the most civilized, non-violent societies that exist. So the conclusion is wrong.

  331. turkleton December 18, 2012 at 6:08 pm #

    I take issue with this whole piece. The Middle East and Africa are both awash in uniquitous small arms like the AK-47. And are the countries there, by and large, civilized places? Are the places with the most guns the most civilized, as suggested? Is there a positive correlation between level of “civilization” of a place and the number of guns floating about in said society? Absolutely not. If anything, there is a negative correlation whereby more guns on the streets generally means more crime. So, while the piece is well-written and well-argued, it is essentially wrong on this whole issue.

  332. xport December 18, 2012 at 6:10 pm #

    If it was not a gun, then it would be a knife, or a rock or a rope. But the bomb or the gun is a techno device that allows separation from the target. Part and parcel of modern society.
    The grief that comes after the fact is never enough to solve the problem that began long before the tragedy, and never enough to heal the wounds that outrageous fortune will bring with the slings and arrows and guns and bombs that kill human beings. It is the symptom of the times: that we have become comfortably numb to it all, and we train kids to kill and sit back in our disturbed techno fantasy and wait for the next blockbuster to burst upon our comatose semi-consciousness. And when something goes wrong with the matrix, then despair and cry out to our leaders to help us fix this mess, but the leaders are now the creators of the mess and look forward to the next disaster as a motive to close the noose on our collective throats.

  333. Buck's A Stud December 18, 2012 at 6:18 pm #

    Gaz,
    That’s a silly argument. If two people are having a reasonable conversation,one is not holding a gun on the other one, or even imply the threat using of a gun. When it moves beyond that it is simply coercion under threat of violence, like a police officer interacting with an unruly citizen.
    But here’s another scenario for you. Person A knows or assumes that Person B is armed and he begins a very reasonable dialogue. And since reasonable means no guns pointing at each other Person B has his gun holstered, because Person A is behaving “reasonably”. But Person A is pretty smart and knows the rules of the game – as diabolical, criminally minded sorts often are – and begins to be back-slapping friendly; friendlier than a politician kissing babies if you will. Person B is enjoying this reasonable, friendly conversation when suddenly Person A jabs a knife into Person B’s carotid artery, who then bleeds red all over his upholstered gun. He never knew what penetrated him could be carved into his headstone in the tragic aftermath.
    Never has a weapon such as the gun given so many a false sense of security. Knife fighters are far more intelligent and aware in that regard and know better.

  334. GAZ December 18, 2012 at 6:20 pm #

    Take issue all you want . The truth hurts. Stop comparing different cultures with different histories, it’s pointless. Apples and oranges buddy.

  335. GAZ December 18, 2012 at 6:29 pm #

    “intelligent knife fighters”…..you gotta’ be fucking kidding me…right?

  336. asoka.. December 18, 2012 at 6:44 pm #

    Never has a weapon such as the gun given so many a false sense of security.
    ===========
    Amen. As the beltway terrorist demonstrated in 2003, killing people from a distance while they were engaged in activities of daily living like mowing a lawn, reading a book, pumping gas, getting on a bus, etc.
    It would not have mattered one iota if those victims were armed with guns. A bullet to the head from 500 feet cannot be defended with any kind of firearm on your person.
    It wouldn’t matter if you had a pistol, a rifle, or an automatic assault weapon or any other weapon of choice. One sniper bullet to the head, and you are dead.
    That is what people on CFN fear: death. Death cannot be prevented. Death is coming. Buy all the guns you want. You can still die any day.
    A more intelligent solution is to prepare for death, and overcome your fear of death, then live life lovingly, with kindness and without guns… and without fear of death.
    “Never has a weapon such as the gun given so many a false sense of security.” Amen.

  337. xport December 18, 2012 at 6:47 pm #

    When it comes to weapons there are many categories. The personal varieties start with body language and subliminal messages. Like turning your back on someone, or refusing to speak or eat.
    Then there are more passive/aggressive forms, like ignoring someone in a social setting and forming cliques and social groups, class warfare and race discrimination.
    On a primal level, every part of your body is a weapon. Your head, teeth, spit, breath, your arms, hands, fingers, shoulders, back, belly, ass, legs and feet can all do damage when used as a weapon.
    Then, as a tool maker, everything is a potential weapon. A stick becomes a knife, a branch becomes a club, a tree becomes a snare, a rope becomes a garrote, a rock becomes a rocket, a sling becomes a gun, a reed becomes a spear, an icicle becomes a dagger, a belt becomes a whip, a chain becomes a bludgeon, a kiss becomes a curse, and a promise becomes a betrayal.
    The great teachers want us to learn to move beyond this primal behavior and reach a higher ground.
    Please, before it is too late.

  338. progress4conserving December 18, 2012 at 6:53 pm #

    “…even with precautions you’re more likely to cause harm by having one around than protect yourself. That’s my point.”
    -hammering turk-
    I get your point, turk, I just disagree with it.
    You have unreasoning fear of firearms that blinds you to the fact that they can be handled safely and that they can be used for good.
    Plus, you seem to have an idea that police officers are always superior to civilians in their weapons skills, and that they are always just seconds away, and that 911 never puts you on hold, etc, etc.

  339. turkleton December 18, 2012 at 6:59 pm #

    “I get your point, turk, I just disagree with it.”
    I don’t get what exactly you disagree with because it is a statistically proven comparison that I’ve made. Do you question the statistics? Do you think they don’t apply to you?
    But okay, fair enough.

  340. turkleton December 18, 2012 at 7:01 pm #

    “Take issue all you want . The truth hurts. Stop comparing different cultures with different histories, it’s pointless. Apples and oranges buddy.”
    This is a nonsensical reply. Of course, I compare different cultures, because the little essay is written in an absolute way. Guns = civilization. I argue otherwise. The actual situation should be clear, regardless of the (I will admit rather well written) rhetoric. I argue that in fact there is an anti-correlation between level of civilization and number of guns floating around in various people’s hands on the street, and I think my argument is better supported than yours.

  341. progress4conserving December 18, 2012 at 7:06 pm #

    Excellent, excellent post, gaz – that this post links to.
    And you are correct to bust turkleton on his continuing “apples and oranges” comparisons. But, comparing Japan to the US as far as lack of firearms and cultural “fitness for collapse???”
    That’s worse than apples to oranges –
    It’s worse than chickens to chainsaws –
    It’s more like comparing lizards to lepidoptera.

  342. anti soak December 18, 2012 at 7:14 pm #

    Indeed, I know a neighbor and she laughed off her abortions and cried over her damn cats.
    Another even more grisly tale, a former acquaintance [rich, of course]shrugged off his 13 year old sister late abortion, but the family fussed over their giant [150 pound] show dogs.
    I wont mention their names here.
    [Me I dont like cats, and dogs are a pricey hobby I was just over at Ripoff reports, someone saying ‘they sold me a pup,the vet bills for the sick dog are 7000$! egads].

  343. progress4conserving December 18, 2012 at 7:14 pm #

    Yeah, I question the statistics.
    Your statistics lump all firearms owners together – the trained and the the untrained.
    And your statistics have no correction for crimes that are averted due to the – even hypothetical – presence of a firearm in a household.
    how about you’re comparing dogs and dirigibles??

  344. anti soak December 18, 2012 at 7:19 pm #

    As far as ‘nigerian spam’…
    you can go to the Police.
    also if its gmail: abuse@gmail.com
    Yahoo was abuse@yahoo.com but now ya have to
    fill out a form.

  345. GAZ December 18, 2012 at 7:20 pm #

    Thank you for bringing this up! I made peace with my higher power long ago. The HUGE problem with adult humanity is that it has not accepted the fact that it is going to die…peroid. Doesn’t matter if it’s a quick death (lucky) or a rotting away (probably) it’s gonna’ happen.
    Nobody is going to control me and make me do what I do not want to do. This is not offensive, it is defensive.
    The 2nd amendment doesn’t have shit to do with hunting to feed yourself, it’s about protection from tryanny. If you want to roll over and expose your belly like a dog (which I love) you go ahead.

  346. anti soak December 18, 2012 at 7:24 pm #

    If it were multi cult with turd worlders [like
    nations run by White libs who welcome immigrants] it would be, well, 3rd world.
    It is Japan because its a monoculture and they
    are [gasp] XENOPHOBES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  347. asoka.. December 18, 2012 at 7:24 pm #

    I don’t carry it because I’m afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. –Maj. Caudill USMC (Ret)
    ==========
    Say what? This is the central lie of the USMC Major’s argument. He is afraid. He fears that someone may confront him with force and he wants a counter-force. That is the whole gist of his argument. The gun as “equalizer” … and his saying he is not afraid is false.
    To walk around with a gun as an “equalizer”? — that translates to: “I’m willing to kill any sumbitch who I perceive to be threatening.” (The USMC Maj. be the judge, jury, and executioner, believing, as he does, that a dead threat is no threat at all.)
    Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword away! All who use a sword will be killed by a sword.
    Ditto for guns.
    It takes more courage to take a vow of ahimsa and live without guns … without the need of an “equalizer” and without fear of death.

  348. progress4conserving December 18, 2012 at 7:25 pm #

    “Never has a weapon such as the gun given so many a false sense of security. Knife fighters are far more intelligent and aware in that regard and know better.”
    -buck, too studly for words-
    Wowsers, buck – I never would have taken you for a knife fighter. Thanks for the warning.
    If we ever meet in the real world and you’re in a bad mood, then I guess I better bring a 12 gauge and some 00 “buck”shot. hahohe!
    Just kidding, buck. Couldn’t resist.

  349. anti soak December 18, 2012 at 7:27 pm #

    At first there were reports of 2 others in cahoots
    with Adam.

  350. asoka.. December 18, 2012 at 7:33 pm #

    2 others? You mean besides Eve, or including Eve?
    I didn’t know conspiracy theory went all the way back to the Garden of Eden!

  351. Buck's A Stud December 18, 2012 at 7:37 pm #

    Gaz, no, I was not kidding…look up Escrima or Pencak Silat. The point is, a person intent on doing you harm will not be dissuaded by a gun or at least before you pull it out. And if you choose to be in a constant state of alert and defense, the quality of your life probably wouldn’t be worth defending anyway. Turkle,Asoka,et al are right the futility of guns, or at least many aspects.

  352. GAZ December 18, 2012 at 7:40 pm #

    I am jealous of you. All that is…is good. Future is good. People good. Earth good. Just give everything a chance…good. Bad is just learning…good. History shows potential for good.
    How do you do it? I’m jealous.

  353. turkleton December 18, 2012 at 7:41 pm #

    “turd worlders”
    Seriously? You’re an awful person.

  354. GAZ December 18, 2012 at 7:42 pm #

    Thank you for making my point for me

  355. Buck's A Stud December 18, 2012 at 7:43 pm #

    LOL Prog…let me back up and contradict myself…on the other hand, competent gun technicians( especially well-rounded self-defense sorts) probably do not view guns as a panacea, which is sort of how I framed my points.
    My point was more along the line of a ‘wolf in sheep’s clothing sneak attack’…and how does one live life – or what quality of life would it be anyway – in that type of high- stress,always looking over the shoulder, environment. Which sort of brings us around to Asoka’s point, IMO.

  356. turkleton December 18, 2012 at 7:45 pm #

    “it’s about protection from tryanny.”
    It is far more statistically likely, by orders of magnitude, that, rather than defending you from tyranny, a gun in your house would be used to harm you, a friend, or a family member. I wish you luck playing those odds, because they are not in your favor. So much for protection.

  357. Buck's A Stud December 18, 2012 at 7:50 pm #

    You’ve been watching too many Spaghetti Westerns – Toodle, Doodle Doodle Do, Wah,Wah.
    By the time you’ve lit your cigar, your knife wielding opponent will have sliced a major artery…and you thought he was trying to shake your hand. Wise up, Gaz.

  358. GAZ December 18, 2012 at 7:50 pm #

    It’s just me and my wife and a catahoula. NO problems here my friend. Let me guess, you believe all the statistics you get from the MSM? God help you.

  359. turkleton December 18, 2012 at 7:56 pm #

    “Yeah, I question the statistics.”
    Ok.
    “Your statistics lump all firearms owners together – the trained and the the untrained.”
    There wouldn’t be a good way to make any kind of stark line dividing the two, so the statistics cover all households, a valid way of looking at it, really. Breaking it down by amount of gun training within the households would be an impossible data set to acquire. So you essentially want some data that simply isn’t out there in a usable form. Sorry.
    “And your statistics have no correction for crimes that are averted due to the – even hypothetical – presence of a firearm in a household.”
    What does this even mean? We’re not considering this. The statistics I refer to compare the chance of you killing an intruder in your house versus the same for a friend/family/guest. It is 12 times more likely that it would be latter. What does (or should) that tell you about these myths of guns and home protection?
    If you compared the chances of home deterrance or injury of an intruder versus that of threatening/assaulting/injuring a friend/family/guest, then it would likely also come out bad for your whole “home protection” cult as well, though admittedly I don’t have those figures handy. One could extrapolate that if the homicide likelihood is 12x against your home protection thesis, then this would similarly be skewed against using guns for home protection. (But you could argue otherwise. I’m willing to hear you out if you actually have any valid points on this.)
    “how about you’re comparing dogs and dirigibles??”
    It doesn’t help your argument that you essentially keep making (again and again) an irrelevant and baseless assertion that I’m supposedly comparing uncomparable things, when in fact I’m not. I guess you think its cute or clever or something.
    The data includes all households, which is a typical way to express these kinds of statistics, because breaking them down in other ways is problemmatical statistically speaking. If you don’t like it, I’m sorry, but you have provided no counter-information which discredits this data.

  360. turkleton December 18, 2012 at 8:01 pm #

    Whatever. You’ve really got nothing but Fox News style talking points and slogans like “mainstream media.” These statistics I mention come from journals like the American Journal of Epidemiology. Are all these acredited medical journals that arrive at the same conclusions part of some vast conspiracy?
    That’s what I’ve found about the gun advocates this last week or so. You’re not very fact-based are you?

  361. turkleton December 18, 2012 at 8:02 pm #

    Some further reading.
    http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-kellermann.htm
    http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/160/10/929.full
    You can dispute my exact figures, but the general consensus is clear.

  362. asoka.. December 18, 2012 at 8:11 pm #

    Is your name Turkleton or Job? Your patience and respectful treatment of P4C is admirable.
    I think he knows that staying on topic he loses the argument, which is why he finds impediments and tries to impede the argument with requests for data that don’t exist, and makes the false charge that you are comparing apples and oranges.
    Nobody ever thinks they will become the statistic … until it happens to them.
    12 to 1. Hmmm. I wouldn’t want those odds for me or my loved ones.

  363. Radu Voda December 18, 2012 at 8:14 pm #

    When are we gonna have a Black Trans Women in the “White House”?
    http://www.theblaze.com/stories/latest-cover-of-transsexual-fashion-magazine-features-transwoman-dressed-as-michelle-obama/

  364. asoka.. December 18, 2012 at 8:18 pm #

    Talk is Hilary will win in 2016. I hope not.
    Elizabeth Warren 2016.

  365. progress4conserving December 18, 2012 at 8:25 pm #

    “I’m supposedly comparing uncomparable things,”
    -turk, getting offended-
    I’m glad you don’t have a weapon that will shoot through cyberspace, there turk. I’d be feeling nervous.
    And yeah, I get your points, but you really are comparing incomparable things, as I’ll try to get to in a second.
    But FIRST, I do think this is clever, so let me get it out of my system – –
    Frogs to frigates
    Equines to Elephants
    Golf to Geode hunting
    Houses to (w)hores
    Indians(dot) to Indians (feather)
    haha!hoho!hehe! goddam’it!
    Has no one read the book from which this comes??
    ——————–
    OK – I feel better, having vented my humor.
    The best correction for “firearms safety training” as a correction factor in home homicides and suicides by firearm – –
    would come from a study that isolated the homes of cops vs. the generic studies you keep citing, turk.
    IOW – cops (by my own anecdotal observations, which would first need to be confirmed or denied) tend to keep loaded weapons in their houses. Their cars, if they have take-home cars, also tend to BRISTLE with loaded weapons and/or weapons with loaded magazines. Cops tend to have children living at home and tend to have a lot of visitors coming and going in their houses.
    So, turk, a study that extracted your firearms data for “cop families” vs “non-cop families” for firearms injuries/deaths would either prove my point about training and safety or prove your point about the impossibility of mitigating the dangers of firearms.
    Does such a study exist? Beats the hell out of me, but it should – and I sure would like to see the results.
    ————————
    more to follow

  366. GAZ December 18, 2012 at 8:33 pm #

    You know what? I could give a shit about Fox or CNN news. I ran a business that employed 12 people for 10 years in SoCal. I let go of that and moved to Oregon in 2002. Fox/blonde bimbo/o’Reliey don’t mean shit to me. The tipping point of givers vs. takers has passed. The fourth turning is here and all who are ignorant of this fact can have a Merry Xmas.

  367. progress4conserving December 18, 2012 at 9:01 pm #

    “And your statistics have no correction for crimes that are averted due to the – even hypothetical – presence of a firearm in a household.”
    What does this even mean? We’re not considering this. The statistics I refer to compare the chance of you killing an intruder in your house versus the same for a friend/family/guest. It is 12 times more likely that it would be latter.”
    -turk-
    First, you need to admit that you are mixing statistics for killing a “friend/family/guest” with the statistics for suicide. Two totally separate things.
    =================
    But what is more important that you seem to be ignoring – is the number of crimes that are prevented because of the presence of a firearm in a home – that do not EVEN OCCUR.
    How many criminals do not break in to a house to commit theft or battery or rape or murder because those criminals understand the implicit threat that the homeowner may be armed – whether he is or not.
    IOW, I can live in a dangerous neighborhood as a peaceful unarmed pacifist – BECAUSE enough of my neighbors are armed and a criminal doesn’t know I, personally, am not armed. OR, better yet, – IF I have the police on speed dial and trust them to come with THEIR firearms to help me in seconds.
    This may be difficult to quantify, turk. But it should be studied.
    Because guns in homes are a deterrent to crime.
    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1818862/posts
    “the overall crime rate had decreased by more than 50% between 1982 and 2005″ -wiki, also referencing Kennesaw, GA –

  368. Radu Voda December 18, 2012 at 9:39 pm #

    That should be the individuals choice. If someone finds that being aware of their surroundings and modifying their behavoir in light of known danger is more stressfull than not doing it – well I grant them the right to their fool’s paradise. This is the mentality of “take back the night” marches. But for people like me, quality of life depends on being alive first. And the awareness of one’s surroundings doesn’t have to be stress but rather the natural awareness we should bring to everything, every place, and everyone.

  369. Radu Voda December 18, 2012 at 9:46 pm #

    Dog people point out that cats will eat their dead owners. But is this bad? They realize that you are dead and don’t need it anymore.
    Amazing how people give women a pass on everything. Without criticism or expectation of duty, women have become monsters putting personal convenience before any and all moral considerations.
    The end is coming. California is about to vote on whether to give illegals unemployment. I mean that’s a real incentive to keep out more illegals out. As Cali goes, goes the Nation….
    http://www.amren.com/news/2012/12/undocumented-immigrants-could-get-jobless-benefits/

  370. anti soak December 18, 2012 at 10:01 pm #

    And dogs will eat their live owners.
    On Youtube is a movie of a yard in the Philippines.
    The dogs had been left for a few days, the guy
    returned and was ‘eaten alive’.

  371. turkleton December 18, 2012 at 11:09 pm #

    Now you want me to somehow quantify incidents that did NOT occur. Wow. That is just unbelievably fatuous. I’m done with this conversation after this post, as you are just taking it in circles. I am not offended, just exasperated by your stupidity. You have no argument and keep changing the subject.
    This is like someone who claims that going 90 mph is fine for them because they are a “good driver”, regardless of the statistics.
    If guns provided significant protection then you would not be 2.7 times to die by homicide from keeping one in your domicile, which is what the statistics show. Instead you put yourself in more danger by having one in the first place. QED (again).

  372. turkleton December 18, 2012 at 11:13 pm #

    Since firearms ownership by household has slightly decreased over the last 30 years it does not make sense to connect this with falling crime rates, which are more directly attributable to more effective policing and increased rates of incarceration.

  373. Radu Voda December 18, 2012 at 11:32 pm #

    Some dogs will. I like to believe at least some are better than this. And I know that cats would be dangerous if they were as big as wolves – then they’d be like leopards or cougars. Cheetahs are apparently possible as pets – they were domesticated by the ancient Egyptians and there is even evidence that were aritificaly created. Probably not a good idea with small children around of course.
    If there is a Mad Max breakdown, roving packs of dogs might become dangerous until they die off. They aren’t a viable species because the males don’t help the females with the pups. They only become viable as they breed out with coyotes or wolves.

  374. Radu Voda December 18, 2012 at 11:34 pm #

    This is the Big One gang. Without the 2nd Ammendment, the “Teeth” of the Bill of Rights, the other Nine don’t mean squat. Boycott stores that are caving into the Globos – like Dick’s. Join the NRA. And of course, keep informed by listening to AJ:
    http://www.infowars.com/theyre-coming-for-our-guns-this-is-the-big-one/

  375. Radu Voda December 19, 2012 at 12:01 am #

    Let me come in on a diagonal tangent: assume everything you say is true – what is the principle? That the individual must be ruled by the foibles of the mass man? Then does not the “pursuit of happiness” become a chimaera? Let’s have another example: most serious crime happens after 10 pm. So wouldn’t a curfew make for the greatest good for the greatest number? Shall we then mandate it? Probably most drunk driving happens between 10 pm and 6 am so we would kill two birds with one stone.
    I mean guns don’t interest you so ban them. But you like to stay out late so this would affect you…

  376. asoka.. December 19, 2012 at 12:40 am #

    The Second Amendment is obsolete. Y’all complain about the “dictator Obama” and his tyranny, and you are admitting the Second Amendment did not prevent what you call “tyranny.” You lost the USA and your precious Second Amendment didn’t do a damn thing.
    The Second Amendment, as perverted by the Roberts court, is about as useful today as the Electoral College, 3/5ths of a person, male only voting, and slavery. Some of this Constitutional dead wood has been cut away. Time to get rid of the Second Amendment as well.

  377. Robert December 19, 2012 at 12:41 am #

    These killers have always existed at least since the sixties. The difference is that now the media blasts them across the universe and millions of people suddenly find the whole thing troublesome. The president gets involved in it and the entire media/reality tv/social media entertainment complex is involved and people are suddenly thinking that this is going to happen in their own schools.

  378. asoka.. December 19, 2012 at 12:47 am #

    REPEAL SECOND AMENDMENT SAYS FORMER POLICE CHIEF
    Former Seattle Police Chief Norm Stamper said Tuesday that repealing the Second Amendment would help curb the type of gun violence witnessed in last Friday’s massacre at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn.
    “I have seen over the course of my 34 years of police work countless homicide and other shooting victims — I know what bullets do to bodies.
    What I think is necessary is for responsible gun owners to recognize that in no way would my suggestion of repealing the Second Amendment — and not necessarily replacing it with another amendment, but I wouldn’t rule that out either — that we create legislation that makes sense for today’s world, not the world that existed at the drafting of the Constitution and certainly the Bill of Rights,” Stamper said.

  379. turkleton December 19, 2012 at 1:03 am #

    The weapons technology available to the average person is much increased since then and statistically the frequency of the incidents has gone up. I do agree that there is a lot if hysteria but there is also the matter of 30k gun deaths a year, including suicides, and 75k injuries so these are non-negligible numbers.

  380. cooldog December 19, 2012 at 1:05 am #

    >Finally the USA has an act that perfectly expresses its true spirit as the horror show nation among nations:
    There is such as thing as being plain mean spirited,. You’ve sunk that low. You are part of the problem.

  381. cooldog December 19, 2012 at 1:10 am #

    >For what it’s worth, the Newtown Massacre to me is largely about the failure of men in America, and in particular the failure of men to raise up male children into men.
    Its not worth that much. You closeted queerness is quite evident. Get some perspective, and start to deal with your own inadequacy man.

  382. Shakazulu December 19, 2012 at 1:54 am #

    Well you’ve just listed a few minor examples. You could write a book on all the instances of this type of legally-enforced governmental hostility to men, especially men who have families. As I stated, I believe it is too late now to change or resist. To revert back to a time when men were men, would require violent revolution and that is the one thing TPTB have made impossible. Men are wimps now.

  383. k-dog December 19, 2012 at 3:03 am #

    “I thought, I have all this stuff; I’m going to turn it into a book. It wasn’t successful financially; it didn’t become a bestseller, but it was successful critically. And more importantly, it really helped change, for a time, the gun landscape. It really did. Police departments kept calling me to say thank you for giving them a way to look at this, to deal with it. In the Justice Department, somebody I can’t name would bounce ideas off me for what needed to be done. All this was reversed in a heartbeat by John Ashcroft. Everything. If there’s a gun problem today, it’s on John Ashcroft’s shoulders. Nothing has been done to counteract the trend. But it will happen. Something will, at last, get people’s attention, and things will change for the better…………

  384. k-dog December 19, 2012 at 3:20 am #


    There is more if you follow the dots.

  385. k-dog December 19, 2012 at 3:38 am #

    Lethal Passage
    I read the interview, tracked down the authors website and linked to the book he said was assassinated by John Ashcroft. I have not read it. So many books so little time. Has anyone here read it?

  386. progress4conserving December 19, 2012 at 5:52 am #

    “Now you want me to somehow quantify incidents that did NOT occur. Wow. That is just unbelievably fatuous.”
    -turkle, doubling down on “fatuous”
    The word “fatuous” is defined as meaning “silly and pointless.” It is not the term you need to be (over!) using with respect to my point to you.
    At least the point is obvious that you finally acknowledge it, by saying
    “incidents that did NOT occur.”
    ===================
    The point is that the number of criminals who enter an occupied home to be shot dead by the homeowner,
    is much smaller than the number of criminals who never enter homes in the first place
    because they fear death, due to armed homeowners.

  387. Treeman December 19, 2012 at 6:35 am #

    “The Israel Lobby wants to disarm us – but Israeli schools are full of armed teachers. Yet you respect them. So, are you one of them?”
    The Israelis don’t arm the teachers, they arm the school helpers and they are specially trained to boot.
    The system works, what does them being mainly Jewish have to do with it? You do know that over 1 million Arab Muslims live in Israel. Their kids go to the same schools as do the christian children and any other religion or lack there of.
    My brothers late wife was born in what is now Gaza, yes I have been through Israel many times but he much more. If I had to live in the middle east, I would certainly prefer to have Jews as neighbours than most of the rest of the middle east.
    Her family, who still live there, may not walk down the street with an uncovered head,holding a bible, shop on Muslim holidays. They pay additional taxes because they are Christians, they have to apply for special permission to bury their dead. Though they won’t necessarily stay buried, in 1995 they dug up the christian bodies and burnt them, in the street, saying that the ground was Islamic and Christians defiled it by being there.
    According to the 1947 census held by us British there were 28,000 Christians in Jerusalem; in 1967 after 19 years of Jordanian rule there were 11,000. By contrast, the number of Christians in Israel has increased from 34,000 in 1949 and 120,000 in 1995 to over 150,000, now numbering about nine percent of the Israeli Arab population, and two percent of the total population in all of Israel.
    As for the Jews wanting to take your guns. Is that all of them, because I seem to recall an organization called Jews for the preservation of the ownership of guns(or like that).
    Or don’t they count because they don’t fit your stereotype?

  388. asoka.. December 19, 2012 at 7:11 am #

    There is only one gun control organization in Israel. The proliferation of private security guards in Israel (since the second intifada) has led to increased deaths by guns in the homes since security guards are allowed to take their guns home.
    This answers P2C’s question about police vs. civilian home gun deaths. Security guards are trained, and their spouses are murdered by guns at home. Here is an excerpt of an interview from ABC’s Correspondent’s Report:
    ANNE BARKER: And while there are legal and licensing laws designed to stop security guards taking their firearms home at the end of the day, loopholes in the law mean they’re hard to enforce.
    It’s given rise to a phenomenon known as ‘guns on the kitchen table’, and Rela Mazali says women are paying a disproportionate price.
    RELA MAZALI: We’re the only disarmament organisation that exists. There’s no anti-gun lobby. It doesn’t exist here due to the very extensive and deep running militarisation of this society.
    And the fact that the Jewish majority basically see guns as very benign, and only there for their protection. Which in fact not only obliterates the problematic of small arms proliferation and its dangers but also obliterates what security means for different genders, and for different groups and different parts of society.
    Because guns at home are not by any means there for women’s protection. They endanger women disproportionately.

  389. Treeman December 19, 2012 at 7:31 am #

    To illustrate a point this story form 2009.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196941/The-violent-country-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html
    The mail is not the most accurate publication but further details can be furnished by the British Crime Survey.
    http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/science-research-statistics/research-statistics/crime-research/hosb0212/
    They do one every year. Word of warning they are mainly PDF and very comprehensive.
    Your point that we have not had any more school spree killings since banning handguns is not really correct, prior to Dunblane we had never had a spree killing in a school.
    Prior to the Hungerford attack in the 80’s we had never really had a spree killings at all.
    But since Dunblane we have had another spree killing by Derek Bird in Cumbria using a .22 calibre rifle and a shotgun killing 12 and injuring 11.( assault weapon ban was ineffective there then)
    Gun crime though using illegally held weapons though keeps increasing.
    Wpc Sharon Beshenivsky was killed using a MAC10 a firearm that has never been legal here.
    WPC Fiona Bone and Nicola Hughes were killed in a handgun and grenade attack this year. Both items illegal of course.
    The list is extensive.
    Operation Trident is the Metropolitan Polices specialist Black gun crime unit, they are kept very busy. Almost without exception every gun used in the crimes they investigate is illegally held.
    We have curtailed gun ownership, but use in crime has increased, violence has increased.
    I live in rural mid Wales, we have the highest level of gun ownership in the UK.
    We have one of the lowest violent crime, burglary and theft rates in the country. Only the Scottish highlands out ranks us.
    Is it because we own guns? I would say no. It is because of the society we live in. We know our neighbours better, community spirit functions more. People work together more. The society here has more in common with the 1950’s than 2012. Do we have problems, yes but far less than most places.
    We are classed as a deprived area, we do not have much public transport to speak of, no skating rinks etc, income level one of lowest in the UK, a hospital with A&E dept 48 miles away. Etc Etc.
    But I can leave my car unlocked, even my house unlocked. If you break down, people stop to help.
    Businesses like ours sponsor events and trips for the schools and old peoples homes, not because of the publicity, because we want to. We have a air ambulance, with the main hospital being so far away. The government does not pay for it, every year the running costs are raised by the community, because people care.
    Sunday I saw my neighbours boys rabbiting(and killing grey squirrels hopefully) at the east end of our woods using .22 rifles. I wasn’t worried because I know them well.
    Society is the problem, the guns are just a symptom. You can reduce some of the fever by reducing the guns but you won’t cure the illness.
    The me me me society that the west by and large has fostered needs to change.
    It will not stop things like this totally, worldwide violence happens,it is part of us. But it will help reduce it.
    Rant over…….

  390. Treeman December 19, 2012 at 7:52 am #

    Of course they could ban guns altogether and go back to having a Ma’alot massacre a few times a year. heck get rid of the IDF too. I am sure Hamas, Fatah and Islamic Jihad would put theirs down too.
    Might be nice Asoka if you looked at the reason they have so many armed guards.
    To quote wikipedia,”In Israel the number of homicide rate produced by criminal activities is relatively low: 2.4 killed per 100,000 inhabitants in a year (in Switzerland the number is 0.71, in Russia is 14.9, in South Africa is 34, in Venezuela is 49).[11] In 2009, 135 people were murdered in Israel. Two major motivations for homicide in Israel are violence against women (including honor killings in Muslim families) and politically motivated violence i.e. Arab terrorism against Israelis”
    To put it in perspective Wales of comparable size and population has a murder rate of 10 per 100,000 people despite having severe restrictions on guns. Israel 2.4 per 100,000, including honour killings.
    Switzerland again despite wide gun ownership and possession of military weapons in a large proportion of households 0.71 per 100,000.
    It’s the society and the values it possesses not the firearms. Treat the disease not the symptoms.

  391. asoka.. December 19, 2012 at 7:52 am #

    “I can leave my car unlocked, even my house unlocked. If you break down, people stop to help.”

    “…worldwide violence happens,it is part of us.”
    Since violence is supposedly “part of us” it is curious that when you break down people don’t stop to take steal, or kill, or simply take advantage of your misfortune and vulnerability.
    When I am not in South America (where people also help their neighbors) I have a home in the USA SW where my area is multicultural and multiracial. When you break down there people also help out, even though they have no idea who you are. It is just obvious you need help and people are willing to help.
    That has been my experience all my life in multicultural settings. Our basic nature is goodness. We have to be conditioned to overcome that and engage in violence. (hence, military basic training breaks you down to overcome natural tendencies to not kill)
    Our instincts are to help out, to engage in mutual cooperation. We are social animals and that is how we survive as a species. If our instincts were to attack and take advantage, we would’ve died out long ago.

  392. HenryMorgan December 19, 2012 at 7:57 am #

    At least we know now who is chiefly responsible for mass murder in Ct and Colorado: The NRA. A little while back in Texas there was that 60 car pileup in the fog which killed a bunch of people. I call the AAA on that. Turketon, you have made a pretty good case for gun control. By all means, whatever firearms you own, turn them in. You can ban these AR style rifles, which will create a huge black market for them, and they will eventually end up in the criminal underground. I can remember being at a public shooting range with my little .22 Marlin, after getting out of the military, and seeing people showing up with AR15 rifles, and at the time being quite surprised that civilians could privately own such a deadly weapon. But there they were, and everything quite legal.
    I would like to see ARs, AKs, and high cap 9mm pistols gone, just like you. But how do you dis-invent something? The USA has become a wild, chaotic, disorderly place. Have you looked around lately and seen what not only our large cities look like, but smaller cities and towns as well? Its not a pretty sight. Jim rails against the suburbs, but where else is there to go where some semblance of a peaceful life can be lived? Newtown was such a place, so that myth has been shattered. Last night in Avon , CT, a high end McMansioned up suburb that just a few decades ago was a rural farming town, there as an armed home invasion where people were tied up and robbed. Thankfully nobody was hurt. And Avon has a 1st class police department, minutes away from anyplace in town. Its incidents like that which make people want to arm themselves.
    A citizen with a medium framed revolver, single or double action, a lever or bolt action rifle, or pump shotgun can consider himself pretty well armed. Its all 19th century technology, but with proper training sufficient for the ordinary citizen to deal with whatever problems might arise.
    –HenryMorgan

  393. asoka.. December 19, 2012 at 8:08 am #

    2.4 per 100,000 including honour killings
    ===========
    Thanks for the statistical support of my claim about basic human goodness.
    Your claim is that 99,997 people out of 100,000 were NOT killed (including honour killings).
    Amazing … considering violence is supposedly “part of us”
    :)

  394. Treeman December 19, 2012 at 8:13 am #

    Violence is part of us, it is a fact, it is why murders happen everywhere.
    The fact that we indulge in self restraint does not mean that it does not linger within us all.
    By your own admission you have never served in the military, hence the reason why you trot out the usual tripe about BMT. BMT is about developing and channeling people abilities. Channeling controlled aggression is but a small part of that. The most important part is acting as a team, mutual cooperation, in adverse circumstances because contrary to you assertion most people do not do so.
    By channeling that aggression into the format of a military unit is the key. To turn out emotionless killers is a failure.
    We are social animals that have a high degree of individuality. That itself is our unpredictability.
    The natural tendency to kill is present within us, it always has been. Due to the cosseted nature of the western world, we no longer have to hunt or for the best part defend ourselves.
    It is called civilisation. It took many ten of thousands of years for us to cooperate sufficiently to overcome our natural violent tendencies. When we look at various parts of the world, and why I raised Rwanda earlier was to demonstrate what happens when this breaks back down into tribalism.

  395. asoka.. December 19, 2012 at 8:37 am #

    Violence is part of us, it is a fact…
    ===========
    Let’s be more specific about the word “part”
    2.4 killing per 100,000 (including honour killings)
    Violence is a .0000024 per cent negligible part in Israel, a pluralistic society which is very multicultural and multiracial. Ethiopian, Chinese, Iranian, Moroccan, Algerian, Japanese and Indian Jews live in Israel.
    Jewish-Arab cooperation projects are on the increase through the work of organizations like The Jerusalem Inter-Cultural Center and the Jerusalem Foundation.

  396. Dfog December 19, 2012 at 8:41 am #

    Male Mental illness caused by Testosterone and evolution at light speed.

  397. asoka.. December 19, 2012 at 9:26 am #

    In Judeo-Christian theology humans were created by G-d, in the image of G-d, and all things created by G-d are good; hence our basic human nature is goodness.
    Our place in creation according to the Old Testament is one of dignity and honor accorded by G-d. No surprise then, an Israeli murder rate of only 2.4 per 100,000, since all things created by G-d are good. Military training is a perversion of our natural goodness, since the goal of military training is to teach effective means of destruction and murder of other human beings, when G-d clearly commanded: Thou shalt not kill.

  398. Treeman December 19, 2012 at 9:28 am #

    “Violence is a .0000024 per cent negligible part in Israel, a pluralistic society which is very multicultural and multiracial. Ethiopian, Chinese, Iranian, Moroccan, Algerian, Japanese and Indian Jews live in Israel.”
    A far greater collection of cultures exist in the USA. Therefore by your reasoning the level of violence in the USA should be far lower.
    In the lefts terminology they are not multicultural either. There are no special dispensations in their law for minorities. It applies to all.
    Their murder rate is low because they are working towards a cohesive civilisation, we and yourselves are not.
    Incidentally does that mean that you think the Jews are better than Americans. Radu will love you for that ;-) lol

  399. Treeman December 19, 2012 at 9:32 am #

    Naturally good. Judeo Christian background. Really. How did Cain and Abel fit into that? One generation in and their already offing each other.

  400. Nigel December 19, 2012 at 9:54 am #

    James is patly right but misses the key point by blaming men in general. Women are a huge piece of this and they are failing us too.
    If women are raising zombie males and psychopaths …then it must be partly women’s fault. Right? Who is doing the raising?
    If men were doing all the raising, feminists and peole like James would not hesitate to point at men given the crazy crime rate.
    So let’s point at the self absorbed, shopping addicted females who stare at mind-numbing celebrity TV, and discard their marriages like they do shoes and marble counter tops and create mountains of waste on our planet since women do 80% of the shopping(yes including gas guzzling cars and monster homes). Spend less on clothes ladies and spend more time with Dad and our boys talking about what matters and teaching virtues.
    Many fathers are absent often due to biases in the family justice system. Boyhood and fatherhood are all minimized and we are seeing the effects that some folks tried to warn us about for years.
    Feminists were too stupid and selfish advancing their own causes for the last 40 years to understand we are all connected and related and created equal, and men are victims too.
    Perhaps society will begin to look at the needs of boys and men-and a 4th wave feminism will begin, with women being forced to pay men child support, ensure fathers get more access and custody and education systems can become more boy friendly.
    More fathers= better and safer society. it’s pretty clear.
    We will then see boys and men create more meaning and connections in their lives so that any shoting woudl be unthinkable. Women don’t seem to be doing the job.

  401. Treeman December 19, 2012 at 10:12 am #

    Or you could just take a more extreme view!
    http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2012/12/18/278706/israeli-squads-tied-to-newtown-carnage/
    It’s the jooos I tell you, the jooos….(rolls eyes)!!!!!!!

  402. ozone December 19, 2012 at 10:47 am #

    Another clue that your so-called egalitarian society has already been ushered through the Gates of Hell, not standing outside gawking through the bars:
    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article33362.htm
    What’s YOUR town “fixin’ to do” to better keep you safe from crim’nals, reeeaders, malcontents, loiterers and unconventional thinkers? (Not to mention those highly suspicious “non-party members”.)
    These are the symptoms; these are the outcomes of bad choices, apathy and complacency. I guess the “lawgivers” dare not talk about the wasting disease that accompanies a dearth of virtues and values (as quaint as they may seem). For those that know [and respect] the potential of firearms, putting a bullet to flight is an entirely intentional act with the absolute direst of consequence when pointed at a living being. In this case, the armed and armored threat is directly and indisputably screaming “DOWN! Down on the ground! SUBMIT!” Ummm, somewhere I’ve heard it said, “never point a firearm at anything you don’t intend to shoot”, and I have no doubt a’tall that these assholes will be pointing their [full-auto modified] AR-15’s in the vicinity of main-body-mass while askin’ [polite-like] for yer AH.DEE.

  403. Treeman December 19, 2012 at 11:29 am #

    Sorry Turkleton I had meant to mention Charles Whitman. According to the accounts I have read Whitmans spree included several people bludgeoned to death at least two killed with a shotgun and the majority of the rest killed with a Remington 700 bolt action rifle even though he had bought a semi auto rifle that morning.
    He was killed himself by a 12 gauge shotgun.
    An assault weapon ban would have had no effect on his rampage!

  404. Treeman December 19, 2012 at 11:40 am #

    Sorry that should have been bludgeoned and stabbed

  405. asoka.. December 19, 2012 at 12:19 pm #

    REALITY CHECK
    Less than 1% of the world’s population is sociopathic. An even smaller percentage of sociopaths ever murder someone. The world average homicide rate is 9.63 per 100,000.
    Humans by nature are basically good.
    We could focus on the 99+ per cent who are loving and kind and do not engage in violence, instead of trying to reinforce the idea that we are living in a “horror show”
    Our obsession, our fascination, with death could be related to fear.

  406. Treeman December 19, 2012 at 12:31 pm #

    In which case since they are such a small proportion then you won’t object to everyone else retaining their gun rights?
    I mean you wouldn’t want to penalise everyone for such a tiny insignificant part of the population.
    Or is because you are obsessed with such a tiny minority and you live in fear of them?

  407. ozone December 19, 2012 at 12:34 pm #

    Let’s play the “comparison game” with the two photos that lead off this article, shall we? (There’s something different; I just can’t quite put my finger on it.)
    http://www.paragoulddailypress.com/articles/2012/12/18/top_story/doc50d08e9fb2588217300183.txt

  408. asoka.. December 19, 2012 at 12:35 pm #

    Asoka to Biden:
    1) reinstate an assault weapons ban
    2) close loopholes related to gun-show sales
    3) limit high-capacity gun ammunition clips
    4) publicize the benefits of a freely chosen meditation practice
    There is no greater magic than meditation. To transform the negative into the positive. To transform darkness into light–that is the miracle of meditation. –Osho

  409. asoka.. December 19, 2012 at 12:45 pm #

    Correct. I have no problem with people retaining their gun rights because human nature is basically good. I don’t want to confiscate anybody’s guns.
    For that miniscule percentage who are mentally ill and want to do harm I do want to keep the most lethal weapons out of their hands.
    Given the nature of recent massacres I would want to restrict access to high caliber military style semi automatic weapons with high capacity magazines.
    Fully automatic weapons are already restricted and they have not been used in massacres.
    All plastic weapons are already restricted and they have not been used in massacres.
    My proposals to Biden are reasonable and do not confiscate or take gun rights away from the vast majority who never intend to do any harm to others … they intend no harm because human nature is basically good.

  410. Rhino December 19, 2012 at 1:26 pm #

    Fucking hilarious.
    Gotta tell ya College Boy, your account of the induction center sounds to me like something you lifted out of a really bad movie script.
    Or did you just make it all up? I mean this dialogue that starts with the heroic and defiant Assoka so dramatically standing up and stepping forward and shouting out “Sir, what if you don’t want to go to Vietnam and kill Vietnamese, sir?” is just way too funny. Had me in stitches.
    So tell us, in this ludicrous fantasy, were you a longhair? Did the farmer boys at the induction center look at your tresses and call you “sweetheart”? Or “honey”? Actually isn’t that actually from a movie? Maybe one with Arlo Guthrie? It’s been too long and my memory is a rusty. Did you see the movie “Tribes”, you know the one with the Darren McGavin as the Marine instructor versus Jan Michael Vincent as the hippie draftee? Was that your inspiration for this little fable?
    Here’s an account of the conscientious objector claim process during the Vietnam War. I copied it from a paper called:
    Obvious Inequities:Lessons Learned from Vietnam War Conscientious Objection”
    by:
    Jean A. Mansavage, Ph.D. (Texas A&M University, 2000)
    Deputy Director, Archival Research Directorate
    Defense Prisoner of War/Missing Personnel Office
    and this is the link:
    http://isme.tamu.edu/ISME08/Mansavage08.html
    and this is what the paper says:
    Conscientious Objector Claim Processes
    During the Vietnam era, young men eligible for the draft were required to register with their local Selective Service draft boards at age 18, initiating a formal dialogue between each registrant and the Selective Service System.Shortly after registering, each man received a Selective Service System Form 100, the Classification Questionnaire, which determined his draft status.After submitting that form to the Selective Service System, the young man was entitled to request the Special Form for Conscientious Objectors (Selective Service System Form 150).This form required a detailed elaboration of the registrant’s subjective pacifist beliefs and objective evidence of those philosophies to determine if he fell within the terms of the draft law.Whether the applicant requested CO status at the time of initial registration or later, the administrative process of applying for the classification was the same.Upon receiving Form 150, the applicant had 10 days in which to complete and return it to his local board.The local board first considered the registrant’s request for conscientious objector status (either 1-O or1-A-O) and decided whether to grant the claim, deny it outright (classifying the registrant 1-A), or assign him a lower classification.The board could also postpone classification altogether and call the registrant to an oral hearing.If the draft board granted a claim, the registrant received his desired CO classification.If denied, he could request a hearing before the draft board.After his personal appearance, if CO status was still denied, the registrant had thirty days to file a written appeal to his local board requesting a review before a State Selective Service appeal board.Within 5 days, the local draft board then forwarded the registrant’s file to the appeal board within his district for a review.This appeal board had the power to overrule the local board and grant the CO request.[69]
    the footnote reference is:
    Selective Service System, “General Principles of Classification,” Registrants Processing Manual, SSSRPM 600.1, Selective Service System Research Library, Arlington, Virginia
    And this business about ahimsa sounds like another nose stretcher. How old were you when you took this vow? You must have been very young especially if the vow happened “years before I received my induction notice from the USA Armed Forces”. Were your parents Buddhist? Or Jain? I thought you were Muslim. Or atheist Muslim. Or something.

  411. turkleton December 19, 2012 at 1:27 pm #

    It is silly and pointless. This is an impossible argument to support, because you have no data that backs it up. Did you do a survey of people who didn’t break into people’s houses last year? Well, hey I didn’t do that either, and it wasn’t because I thought the homeowners had guns at home. So, anecdotally, I just disproved your entire thesis. That’s fine right? If you can base all your arguments on subjective, anecdotal examples then so can I, apparently.

  412. turkleton December 19, 2012 at 1:29 pm #

    Yeah, but he was also an ex-Marine and so somewhat of an anamolie as far as that goes. I’m not arguing that banning assault rifles would completely solve this problem, but it is a logical step.

  413. newworld December 19, 2012 at 1:35 pm #

    Thanks Jim, this was written by an adult for an adult audience.
    I’m a huge 2A supporter, own all the evil black guns or whatever taboo terms are used to describe them, but I have to agree with the libs here.
    In a Therapeutic Welfare State dedicated to reducing humans to equality guns only belong in the hands of the enforcers of policy, not the populace.
    This kid is the product of his enviroment as were all the others before him. So all you evil anti-whites who peddle guilt upon poor white kids, you really must close the 2A loophole.

  414. turkleton December 19, 2012 at 1:39 pm #

    Hi,
    Ban the sale/ownership/manufacture of these weapons for civilians, institute buyback programs at cost+, restrict the sale of ammunition, etc.
    This will start to drain the supply of these guns from the streets over time. It will take awhile, but you would start to see fewer of them around.
    Will it completely remove them? No, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try. Just because something won’t solve a problem 100% doesn’t mean it won’t help.

  415. turkleton December 19, 2012 at 1:44 pm #

    Yes, this is really about making people guilty and promulgating the oppressive liberal state, rather than trying to institute practical measures to stop an epidemic of tragic, senseless violence against children. You hit that nail on the head with your insightful, unbiased analysis of this situation, sir, for which I commend you.

  416. Rhino December 19, 2012 at 1:44 pm #

    And by the way, last week you said this:
    “Only whites were driven by greed to such an extent that they used their logic and reason to abuse, enslave, and murder to a degree that far exceeded anyone else.” Assoka
    So I asked a simple question. How do you know?
    Did you look at documentary evidence left by other societies and civilizations to determine the extent of slaveholding and slave trading by non white and non Euroepean peoples so as to be able to compare?
    You as yet have not gotten back to us on this. Not trying only to bust your balls on this (that too) but because this whole business sounds like as an article of faith. It’s one of the ideological talking points. Typically where the talker assumes someone else did all the legwork to see if it’s really true.
    So, we’re waiting. Don’t let us down. You have a historic opportunity to verify or to refute.

  417. asoka.. December 19, 2012 at 1:57 pm #

    I am so happy you are enjoying my posts, Rhino.
    Here is how it went down:
    1) Took vow after reading Gandhi’s Autobiography
    2) Received CO status from SSS
    3) Received induction notice
    4) Got thrown out since I was a CO
    5) Got assigned to alternative service
    Everything I post to CFN is the absolute truth.
    I was a lot braver in my youth than I am now. I stood up to the USA Armed Forces, and did my duty without violating my conscience or my ahimsa vow.

  418. Rhino December 19, 2012 at 1:59 pm #

    The USA is pretty much an urbanized country. Something like 2% of the population do the food growing for the rest.
    So I can MAYBE see the point of a rifle in the hands of a farmer to shoot varmints. But only ONE basic rifle that can dispatch a fox or coyote and not a military assault rifle that kill off an entire village.
    Much, much harder to see the point of guns in anyone else’s hands. Aside maybe from cops. And of course soldiers.
    So how do you get rid of the damn things? You need to make draconian laws ie bring ALL guns to the local copshop. Get a receipt for the guns showing make and model, send copy to govt for reimbursement.
    From the copshop they will be taken to military compounds for destruction.
    Meanwhile if ANYONE is caught with ANY firearm past a certain date the penalty is 15 years in the clink, no ifs ands or buts. That’s IF you want to stop this insanity.

  419. newworld December 19, 2012 at 2:02 pm #

    Biden? Good luck with that folks.
    The welfare state is kaput, banning guns, sorry you were too late.
    Now you on the left here is what we are going to do regardless if you like it or not, and I suspect not because your cult is basically controlled by WHITE GUILT and tax monies, both are in short supply these days.
    The willy nilly handing out of prescription drugs is going to get drug control, the war on boys especially white boys will be ended (resist this you will be prosecuted) and real men will be placed in positions of authority in our public institutions.
    The end have a nice day.

  420. asoka.. December 19, 2012 at 2:03 pm #

    I referred you to the primary source material and told you where to find the original documents.
    If you have ANY documentary evidence of ANY race or ethnic group that surpassed white Europe by making more than 3,500 slaving voyages or enslaving more than TEN MILLION human beings, then you should provide the evidence. If you have none, then my claim stands.

  421. newworld December 19, 2012 at 2:06 pm #

    Basic policy in Mexico and Jamacia you are describing, or how to put innocents in jail while drug dealers run loose.
    Of course less than a week ago you wanted to arm the Syrian people because as you were told to think by TV, “The Syrian government is killing its own people.” Folks that is the 2A

  422. Rhino December 19, 2012 at 2:10 pm #

    You’re the one making the assertion about whites.
    So you have nothing from other peoples and other civilizations to compare to. No evidence, no historical records, no writings, no documentation, nothing to back up your assertions.
    YOU prove your own claims. Otherwise we’re entitled to assume you’re full of shit.

  423. anti soak December 19, 2012 at 2:12 pm #

    Libor scandal grows as the fathers of two mass murderers were to testify
    http://www.examiner.com/article/libor-s … to-testify
    “The father of Newtown Connecticut school shooter Adam Lanza is Peter Lanza who is a VP and Tax Director at GE Financial.
    The father of Aurora Colorado movie theater shooter James Holmes is Robert Holmes, the lead scientist for the credit score company FICO.
    Both men were to testify before the US Sentate in the ongoing LIBOR scandal. The London Interbank Offered Rate, known as Libor, is the average interest rate at which banks can borrow from each other. 16 international banks have been implicated in this ongoing scandal, accused of rigging contracts worth trillions of dollars. HSBC has already been fined $1.9 billion and three of their low level traders arrested.”
    “Libor is the internal banking interest rate that major financial institutions determine each day for lending purposes between each facility. This rate is then translated to the interest rates used for mortgages, student loans, credit cards, and nearly every interest bearing loan in the world. Manipulation of the Libor rate has resulted in hundreds of billions, if not trillions of dollars in fraudulent payments made by billions of customers throughout the financial world.”
    and
    CNBC Exec’s Children Murdered, 1 Day After CNBC Reports $43 Trillion Lawsuit
    http://12160.info/profiles/blogs/cnbc-e … bc-reports…………………
    ……………
    ………..
    ……
    ….
    ..
    .

  424. Rhino December 19, 2012 at 2:13 pm #

    Everything I post to CFN is the absolute truth. – Assoka
    I’ll bet it is. You should stick around just to make us laugh.

  425. asoka.. December 19, 2012 at 2:14 pm #

    I made my claim. And I backed it up with documentation, the original documents, which I have seen with my own eyes.
    If you have anything, do tell us, we’re all waiting. If anyone is worse than whites, it should be easy for you to prove. But you can’t because no race or ethnic group rationalized slave trade into an industry and shipped millions of human beings across an ocean. Put up or shut up, Rhino.

  426. asoka.. December 19, 2012 at 2:15 pm #

    I made my claim. And I backed it up with documentation, the original documents, which I have seen with my own eyes.
    If you have anything, do tell us, we’re all waiting. If anyone is worse than whites, it should be easy for you to prove. But you can’t because no race or ethnic group rationalized slave trade into an industry and shipped millions of human beings across an ocean. Put up or shut up, Rhino.

  427. Rhino December 19, 2012 at 2:16 pm #

    “And probably enough ill feeling. Just pick the flavor of the conflict you want: ideological? Religious? Racial? Regional?” JHK
    Good for JHK. Message there for idiots trying to stoke animosities.

  428. asoka.. December 19, 2012 at 2:17 pm #

    You should stick around just to make us laugh.
    ==========
    I plan to.
    I am a joke unto myself.

  429. Rhino December 19, 2012 at 2:20 pm #