"God gave man free choice. People's individual choices, and mankind's cumulative choices are why things are the way they are."
Exactly. This principle tells me two things, Socrates.
1. God cannot violate his own laws and therefore cannot get involved which means we humans are on our own to fix the mess our actions and inactions have create…
"God gave man free choice. People's individual choices, and mankind's cumulative choices are why things are the way they are."
Exactly. This principle tells me two things, Socrates.
1. God cannot violate his own laws and therefore cannot get involved which means we humans are on our own to fix the mess our actions and inactions have created.
2. God is not all powerful and cannot intervene. If God intervenes God breaks his own law of human free choice and free will and if he breaks his own law he becomes a liar. If God becomes a liar he loses his authority which comes from his honor and the honor of his creations.
Either way, I don't believe God is going to save us from our wickedness. We made this mess. We need to fix it. We fix it by first fixing ourselves, inwardly. Once we as a people fix ourselves inwardly and turn ourselves back to righteous principles and righteous living, everything else will fall right in line. I truly believe this.
Oh, and Socrates, a close friend of mine is a police chief in my town and believe me when I tell you, the people themselves are corrupted and wicked. The heart breaking stories of drugs, crime, child abuse, spouse abuse, infidelity, pornography and so forth are stunning. And I live in a rural Utah community.
Drugs can turn people into MONSTERS. Like you, I am closely acquainted with this fact. I have friends who have adopted foster children.... The hell that those kids endured as victims of drug-addicted parents is unimaginable.
As for porn, I have seen marriages destroyed. And I know of at least one man who always tried to be a good and decent husband, father, church member and community leader, but was addicted to online porn. He committed suicide because of the crushing guilt he felt at leading a double life.
If anyone reading this has this problem, I beg you: Get help!!! I just did a search for "porn addiction hotline christian" and a TON of resources came up. Get help. Today.
Well said. And many women are addicted to social media, doing all kinds of crazy things for likes. Many of them are still on dating sites after being married just for the validation, or to keep their options open. About 60% of married women admit to having a "Plan B" or back up man if things get bad.
Janos - Plan B's aren't all bad. About 95% of Americans don't even have a Plan A, so they're already screwed.
About 4% have a Plan A, so they're on the right track.
It's the 1% that have a Plan B, that'll come out the other side, knowing full well, that something always goes awry with Plan A.
Those women are just covering their downside risk. Problem is that a lot of one-time losers - men or women - end up becoming two-time losers. It's a pattern.
And if wifey meets a better man online, she'll start talking with him. If it all checks out, she'll replace her husband and blame him for it. Such is the feminine nature which you adore.
God rules absolutely. We have all been subjected to vanity. That's the point of this exercise. God makes what He will of every vessel, honorable or dishonorable. He creates good and evil. You have no choice in when you were born, to whom, and all your personal characteristics. You have no choice in life but what He puts before you. After choosing wrong for so long and reaping the consequences, you will learn to choose right by His grace only. Repentance and faith are a gift.
John 3:16. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son for part of a weekend."
We are told an all-knowing God designed the incredible complexities of life, yet was so unimaginative & primitive it could only resolve issues by killing people.
"In the beginning man created God, then he created stories in which God created man."
When I was 4 years old, my grandmother was given a couple of red-backed salamanders (Plethodon cinereus) by one of her students (she taught third grade). She made up a terrarium for them where they did - nothing. Not satisfied with this inactivity, I took a pencil and started prodding them to get them to move, to do - something... Well, I may have prodded too much because eventually they became VERY inactive.
I don't think that "God" is a 4-year-old with a terrarium.
Carl Gustav Jung, whose work was influential in the fields of psychiatry, anthropology, archaeology, literature, philosophy, psychology and religious studies, in his autobiography "Memories Dream Reflections" said "I will not discuss the transparent prophecies of the Book of Revelation because no one believes in them and the whole subject is felt to be an embarrassing one."
If God is willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
If he is able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
If he is both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
If he is neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
People put in far too much effort to still end up being wrong.
The God excuse: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument.
"At what point does all of this stuff just break down and become just a lot of stupid shit that someone made up! They fucking made it up folks! It's make-believe!” – George Carlin
"God gave man free choice. People's individual choices, and mankind's cumulative choices are why things are the way they are."
Exactly. This principle tells me two things, Socrates.
1. God cannot violate his own laws and therefore cannot get involved which means we humans are on our own to fix the mess our actions and inactions have created.
2. God is not all powerful and cannot intervene. If God intervenes God breaks his own law of human free choice and free will and if he breaks his own law he becomes a liar. If God becomes a liar he loses his authority which comes from his honor and the honor of his creations.
Either way, I don't believe God is going to save us from our wickedness. We made this mess. We need to fix it. We fix it by first fixing ourselves, inwardly. Once we as a people fix ourselves inwardly and turn ourselves back to righteous principles and righteous living, everything else will fall right in line. I truly believe this.
Oh, and Socrates, a close friend of mine is a police chief in my town and believe me when I tell you, the people themselves are corrupted and wicked. The heart breaking stories of drugs, crime, child abuse, spouse abuse, infidelity, pornography and so forth are stunning. And I live in a rural Utah community.
Drugs can turn people into MONSTERS. Like you, I am closely acquainted with this fact. I have friends who have adopted foster children.... The hell that those kids endured as victims of drug-addicted parents is unimaginable.
As for porn, I have seen marriages destroyed. And I know of at least one man who always tried to be a good and decent husband, father, church member and community leader, but was addicted to online porn. He committed suicide because of the crushing guilt he felt at leading a double life.
If anyone reading this has this problem, I beg you: Get help!!! I just did a search for "porn addiction hotline christian" and a TON of resources came up. Get help. Today.
Well said. And many women are addicted to social media, doing all kinds of crazy things for likes. Many of them are still on dating sites after being married just for the validation, or to keep their options open. About 60% of married women admit to having a "Plan B" or back up man if things get bad.
Janos - Plan B's aren't all bad. About 95% of Americans don't even have a Plan A, so they're already screwed.
About 4% have a Plan A, so they're on the right track.
It's the 1% that have a Plan B, that'll come out the other side, knowing full well, that something always goes awry with Plan A.
Those women are just covering their downside risk. Problem is that a lot of one-time losers - men or women - end up becoming two-time losers. It's a pattern.
Plan A will definitely go awry if you have a Plan B. That’s not a marriage, it's a "situationship," as the kids say. That’s no way to live.
And if wifey meets a better man online, she'll start talking with him. If it all checks out, she'll replace her husband and blame him for it. Such is the feminine nature which you adore.
God rules absolutely. We have all been subjected to vanity. That's the point of this exercise. God makes what He will of every vessel, honorable or dishonorable. He creates good and evil. You have no choice in when you were born, to whom, and all your personal characteristics. You have no choice in life but what He puts before you. After choosing wrong for so long and reaping the consequences, you will learn to choose right by His grace only. Repentance and faith are a gift.
John 3:16. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son for part of a weekend."
We are told an all-knowing God designed the incredible complexities of life, yet was so unimaginative & primitive it could only resolve issues by killing people.
"In the beginning man created God, then he created stories in which God created man."
Repentance and faith are a gift.
Oh, no! Please! No!
Not Hell! Not the Lake of Eternal Fire!
Lord, I believe! I repent!
I'm saved now, praise Jesus!
I'm saved!
Thank you, Jesus, thank you!
The anti-Gospel according to a perverse and corrupt mind.
When I was 4 years old, my grandmother was given a couple of red-backed salamanders (Plethodon cinereus) by one of her students (she taught third grade). She made up a terrarium for them where they did - nothing. Not satisfied with this inactivity, I took a pencil and started prodding them to get them to move, to do - something... Well, I may have prodded too much because eventually they became VERY inactive.
I don't think that "God" is a 4-year-old with a terrarium.
Cankerpuss
Your last paragraph is a wonderful summation of the message of Jesus. The key to salvation is within every one of us.
Oh, no! Please! No!
Not Hell! Not the Lake of Eternal Fire!
Lord, I believe! I repent!
I'm saved now, praise Jesus!
I'm Saved!
Thank you, Jesus, thank you!
Yes. "...within you but you don't realize it."
That is, make it real.
God has interviened many times in the Bible. He has a master plan, and will follow that to the ultimate end.
No argument here, but maybe included in that master plan is to let humanity fail because humanity no longer believes in or listens to God.
The message of Revelation.
If Vegas could vote on the likelihood of human self-salvation, I think the odds would be very long.
Carl Gustav Jung, whose work was influential in the fields of psychiatry, anthropology, archaeology, literature, philosophy, psychology and religious studies, in his autobiography "Memories Dream Reflections" said "I will not discuss the transparent prophecies of the Book of Revelation because no one believes in them and the whole subject is felt to be an embarrassing one."
Beware of those who claim to interpret God’s “word.”
They don’t know any more than you do.
What they want is not truth, but power.
The bolder their interpretations, the more power they want.
"(God) has a master plan, and will follow that to the ultimate end."
In which everything plays a part, with humanity a barely noticeable background blip.
If God is willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
If he is able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
If he is both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
If he is neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
People put in far too much effort to still end up being wrong.
The God excuse: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument.
"At what point does all of this stuff just break down and become just a lot of stupid shit that someone made up! They fucking made it up folks! It's make-believe!” – George Carlin