Zazzy, I'll testify as a convert of yours. I too had a long-time preconceived notion of anarchy - defining it internally as chaos laden, and possibly violent and destructive.
After your patience and tutelage, I came to see it as, and define anarchy as, simply not being governed. Period. That being my new(er) understanding, I'm down, 100%.
Zazzy, I'll testify as a convert of yours. I too had a long-time preconceived notion of anarchy - defining it internally as chaos laden, and possibly violent and destructive.
After your patience and tutelage, I came to see it as, and define anarchy as, simply not being governed. Period. That being my new(er) understanding, I'm down, 100%.
And thanks again for that, Zazzy.
Sorry about the girl and the ice-breaker-cum-shoe-horn, it's like when they start talking astrology, I can't help myself.
Should we discourage such talk in the cafe? Dreamy will surely object, so I'll let you two co-owners hash it out.
"Sorry about the girl and the ice-breaker-cum-shoe-horn..." ~ Ron Anselmo
I was about to leave anyway, but also, in retrospect, it was probably an opportune moment: We don't want to overwater our seeds, nor do so when we're too drunk, do we?
I don't drink all that much and the oversweet dark 'Russian' beer that I said would be better poured over cereal was a bit much. Before I drank my first sip, of course I toasted to Putin.
I am fine with Astrology for those who are fine with it. Using it for ice-breaking, too, is a fair strategy for those it works for or who want it to work for them. Besides, if some wanted to read our palms as an excuse to delicately hold our hands and run their fingers all over them, who would we be to argue against our 'futures', at least at that time?
Here's my point: I needn't be governed - by anyone - I'm capable of self-governing. On a macro level where does that go, as you suggest, given human foible? You know the answer - Law of the Jungle.
Why is that always so disparaged? It works; it's the natural order. Think about it. Absent man, it has always worked just fine. We are the ones who fuck everything up. It's our hubris, not wanting to live as intended.
elysianfield seems to have an unrealistic, 'boxed' counter-ideology about human-nature that he tacks onto anarchy (or any interest in the improvement of the human condition) and that inevitably, logically leads to an impasse, a stalemate.
The point is, it cancels out. Pure mathematics. It's a rationalization to remain stuck. 'We can't do this because we can't.' It's circular reasoning.
My point is that some humans-- and it doesn't have to include those trapped and comfortable in the logic-- may be able to break out of that trap and forge a new way of being, even if as small as a village and a few members to start. That's how we get off this planet. It begins with a shift in the headspace.
That's all it takes for a new species to evolve, is to break free of the impasses. A sociocultural mutation. A different way of being, of doing, of thinking.
elysianfield, God bless his little heart, doesn't have to come with us if he doesn't want to. That's part of the beauty of anarchy. It is not mandatory, impositional, coercive.
So he is free to remain in his headspace WRT anarchy or any other interest in the improvment of the human condition, even if just one's own. Just one's own is a start. Baby steps.
Let me remind that we are a land-dwelling species. Sort of spacefaring even. We had to get past the impasse that was the land and out of the ocean. And yet here we are. We left the elysianfish, along with our fins, behind.
We have arms and legs now and bigger brains. What's next?
Oh, and as far as my unrealistic "counter ideology" about human nature? I can only salute your safe, secure and prosperous upbringing. You won the lottery, but your education of reality is necessarily uncomplete, without full emersion into the realities of human nature at it's most base level.
You, who questioned prison rape. Prison is currently the state sponsored laboratory for study of "Anarchy". Bigger brains are good but being able to press 400 pounds even better in that venue.
Rape in prison is rape in an artificial State construct. The State is rape, so what do you expect? What do you think anarchists are trying to transcend? An Amish village? Furthermore, your citing of it illustrates why in part we need to transcend the State. IOW, you're helping our argument.
You have thoughts the way life should be, I have observed the truths of the way life actually is...and I will take those truths to my death...I will continue to believe my God Damned Lying Eyes! You explain away the outrages of prison anarchy too readily. Consider that the housing of criminals a state construct does not make criminal behavior, it contains it. Have you ever been put upon by a violent criminal? Ever beaten and robbed? Your wife accosted, while the criminal kicks sand in your face at the beach? Your children preyed upon by bullies? Being victimized is a big club, and you, apparently are not yet a member.
If you take a bunch of creatures and throw them in cages, then they are likely to fight because it's an artificial, threatening, imprisoning construct. But, some creatures may not fight (and might try to hide or curl up in a corner or try to escape by clawing at the cage's walls/bars), while others only fight a little bit. You know it and I know it. So even your argument in that regard face-plants.
The old Soviet Union was a State, which has nothing to do with anarchy.
"no, I mean the New Anarchist Man..." ~ elysianfield
No, you don't know what you mean. Different animals are different. You're likely a different breed of human. That's ok if you keep it to yourselves and don't impose it in our direction. It's not ok, otherwise. So maybe you're really talking about yourself and suggesting that you'll be part of that impasse. So be it. We've transcended tougher challenges.
Only you are painting with a broad brush and making an imposition about human nature to boot. My human nature is not your human nature. Amish villages are not State prisons.
No they're not. Some people are far more violent than others, while others are entirely peaceful and will avoid violence at all costs. In fact, violence is why some end up in prison. By your logic, we should all be in prison. But we are! It's called the State!
You are describing the results of upbringing, culture, religion etc...the Nurture Argument. Human nature is the same. The state exists due to the Nature Argument.
While the Amish don't have a formal "council of elders" in the way some other societies do, they do have a structured system of leadership within their communities. Each Amish congregation typically has a bishop (spiritual leader), ministers (also spiritual leaders), and a deacon (responsible for practical needs). These leaders, along with the baptized members of the community, collectively decide on matters of faith and practice, often referred to as the Ordnung,
Structured system of leadership. Decisions of faith AND practice....
Zazzy, I'll testify as a convert of yours. I too had a long-time preconceived notion of anarchy - defining it internally as chaos laden, and possibly violent and destructive.
After your patience and tutelage, I came to see it as, and define anarchy as, simply not being governed. Period. That being my new(er) understanding, I'm down, 100%.
And thanks again for that, Zazzy.
Sorry about the girl and the ice-breaker-cum-shoe-horn, it's like when they start talking astrology, I can't help myself.
Should we discourage such talk in the cafe? Dreamy will surely object, so I'll let you two co-owners hash it out.
"Sorry about the girl and the ice-breaker-cum-shoe-horn..." ~ Ron Anselmo
I was about to leave anyway, but also, in retrospect, it was probably an opportune moment: We don't want to overwater our seeds, nor do so when we're too drunk, do we?
I don't drink all that much and the oversweet dark 'Russian' beer that I said would be better poured over cereal was a bit much. Before I drank my first sip, of course I toasted to Putin.
I am fine with Astrology for those who are fine with it. Using it for ice-breaking, too, is a fair strategy for those it works for or who want it to work for them. Besides, if some wanted to read our palms as an excuse to delicately hold our hands and run their fingers all over them, who would we be to argue against our 'futures', at least at that time?
Ron, Jesus! Why not another fairy tale completely devoid of human foible? No more wars! No more disease! Next year Wakanda!
But that's precisely what you're saying as well-- as an inverse.
It's still as unrealistic an ideology as what you critique here. Just mirror it and take a look for yourself.
Anarchists-- not your imaginary inverted versions of them-- are all too aware that no one's perfect, but that's not the point, nor their points.
See also:
kunstler.com/p/the-great-consternation/comment/111903017
E - I always respect your opinions.
Here's my point: I needn't be governed - by anyone - I'm capable of self-governing. On a macro level where does that go, as you suggest, given human foible? You know the answer - Law of the Jungle.
Why is that always so disparaged? It works; it's the natural order. Think about it. Absent man, it has always worked just fine. We are the ones who fuck everything up. It's our hubris, not wanting to live as intended.
elysianfield seems to have an unrealistic, 'boxed' counter-ideology about human-nature that he tacks onto anarchy (or any interest in the improvement of the human condition) and that inevitably, logically leads to an impasse, a stalemate.
The point is, it cancels out. Pure mathematics. It's a rationalization to remain stuck. 'We can't do this because we can't.' It's circular reasoning.
My point is that some humans-- and it doesn't have to include those trapped and comfortable in the logic-- may be able to break out of that trap and forge a new way of being, even if as small as a village and a few members to start. That's how we get off this planet. It begins with a shift in the headspace.
That's all it takes for a new species to evolve, is to break free of the impasses. A sociocultural mutation. A different way of being, of doing, of thinking.
elysianfield, God bless his little heart, doesn't have to come with us if he doesn't want to. That's part of the beauty of anarchy. It is not mandatory, impositional, coercive.
So he is free to remain in his headspace WRT anarchy or any other interest in the improvment of the human condition, even if just one's own. Just one's own is a start. Baby steps.
Let me remind that we are a land-dwelling species. Sort of spacefaring even. We had to get past the impasse that was the land and out of the ocean. And yet here we are. We left the elysianfish, along with our fins, behind.
We have arms and legs now and bigger brains. What's next?
Oh, and as far as my unrealistic "counter ideology" about human nature? I can only salute your safe, secure and prosperous upbringing. You won the lottery, but your education of reality is necessarily uncomplete, without full emersion into the realities of human nature at it's most base level.
You, who questioned prison rape. Prison is currently the state sponsored laboratory for study of "Anarchy". Bigger brains are good but being able to press 400 pounds even better in that venue.
Human nature, like all nature, changes over time.
Rape in prison is rape in an artificial State construct. The State is rape, so what do you expect? What do you think anarchists are trying to transcend? An Amish village? Furthermore, your citing of it illustrates why in part we need to transcend the State. IOW, you're helping our argument.
Zaz,
You have thoughts the way life should be, I have observed the truths of the way life actually is...and I will take those truths to my death...I will continue to believe my God Damned Lying Eyes! You explain away the outrages of prison anarchy too readily. Consider that the housing of criminals a state construct does not make criminal behavior, it contains it. Have you ever been put upon by a violent criminal? Ever beaten and robbed? Your wife accosted, while the criminal kicks sand in your face at the beach? Your children preyed upon by bullies? Being victimized is a big club, and you, apparently are not yet a member.
If you take a bunch of creatures and throw them in cages, then they are likely to fight because it's an artificial, threatening, imprisoning construct. But, some creatures may not fight (and might try to hide or curl up in a corner or try to escape by clawing at the cage's walls/bars), while others only fight a little bit. You know it and I know it. So even your argument in that regard face-plants.
The fighters then subjugate those who do not fight.
Have you not been paying attention?
"The fighters then subjugate those who do not fight." ~ elysianfield
On an entire planet? Assuming so, then what?
'The End'?
Your fighters celebrate their victories and don't then start fighting each other?
Or does Mom Nature have an ace up her sleeve that breaks the cycle somewhere in there?
And what about the rest of the natural world? Do your fighters subjugate it all? Like into a zoo of sorts?
Then what?
How far down the line of infinity do you want to go?
What next? The evolution of the New Soviet Man, no, I mean the New Anarchist Man, who transcends human nature and builds the next Utopia.
"That's all it takes for a new species to evolve, is to break free of the impasses"
Next year, Wakanda!
The old Soviet Union was a State, which has nothing to do with anarchy.
"no, I mean the New Anarchist Man..." ~ elysianfield
No, you don't know what you mean. Different animals are different. You're likely a different breed of human. That's ok if you keep it to yourselves and don't impose it in our direction. It's not ok, otherwise. So maybe you're really talking about yourself and suggesting that you'll be part of that impasse. So be it. We've transcended tougher challenges.
Zaz,
What it means is that ALL utopian movements require change in human nature to work.
And...and in this we are, apparently in agreement. Your position is that human nature can change, mine is that it will not
Only you are painting with a broad brush and making an imposition about human nature to boot. My human nature is not your human nature. Amish villages are not State prisons.
Zaz,
Human nature, yours and mine, are identical. Our learned responses to those urges may differ.
No they're not. Some people are far more violent than others, while others are entirely peaceful and will avoid violence at all costs. In fact, violence is why some end up in prison. By your logic, we should all be in prison. But we are! It's called the State!
Zaz,
You are describing the results of upbringing, culture, religion etc...the Nurture Argument. Human nature is the same. The state exists due to the Nature Argument.
Amish villages have leaders...
While the Amish don't have a formal "council of elders" in the way some other societies do, they do have a structured system of leadership within their communities. Each Amish congregation typically has a bishop (spiritual leader), ministers (also spiritual leaders), and a deacon (responsible for practical needs). These leaders, along with the baptized members of the community, collectively decide on matters of faith and practice, often referred to as the Ordnung,
Structured system of leadership. Decisions of faith AND practice....
Give it a name....
It's just an example of a society that seems generally peaceful, however it is structured.
Perhaps,
But they in no way can be called anarchist.