Some interesting questions indeed. When Jesus's disciples called for "fire from heaven" (Luke 9:52-56), Jesus replied " For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them." (v56). Our own intrinsic knowledge calls us to desire peace, but the divisiveness of our common enemy Satan, will continue to divide men into war…
Some interesting questions indeed. When Jesus's disciples called for "fire from heaven" (Luke 9:52-56), Jesus replied " For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them." (v56). Our own intrinsic knowledge calls us to desire peace, but the divisiveness of our common enemy Satan, will continue to divide men into warring factions as long as men choose to deceive their own hearts (consciousness), leavening the whole lump in the compromises of the mundane as opposed to a more excellent knowledge.(Luke 1:1-4).
My old book says that Jesus said "For the Son of man is not come to destroy, blah, blah, blah........"
Who wrote this nonsense? Your old book was written centuries after this guy Jeebus was supposed of existed. By unknown authors.
My favorite parts of the Bible are where Jesus is talking to God, himself, and no one else is around ~ and his conversation is quoted in the Bible.
"At what point does all of this stuff just break down and become just a lot of stupid shit that someone made up! They fucking made it up folks! It's make-believe!” – George Carlin
"Beyond the grave where time no longer exist is where the final arbitration of liars and truth-tellers will be settled."
Christins believe that when they get to heaven, they will know why and agree with God about all the people sent to hell. Thus, they will be either happy or indifferent about all their friends and family that get sent to hell. Just another dehumanizing aspect of religion.
When I realized Hell wasn’t true it was the biggest relief of my life. I couldn’t get my head around having friends and family burning in hell while I enjoyed paradise. Also, I now don’t worry that people are in danger of burning in hell if they don’t believe in the Bible. I’ve slept much better since.
Although dissenting opinions are a matter of freedom to chose for oneself, as a matter of principle, those who take issue with "Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not covet what is thy neighbors, Thou shalt not bear false witness, can undoubtedly advance any given argument. To assert that hell, jail, or clouds do not exist hasn't convinced me that your belief's are not founded in centuries of Human experience, but selective bigotry against those who do not share in your delusions It's OK. I can still love my enemies, because I do not look to my own understanding but a little higher. Yes, they can kill my body, they've done it before, but they cannot shake my faith.
One does not have to be religious to hold the values thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not covet what is thy neighbors, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Clyde. Those are human values that existed long before your old book was written.
Atheists don't assert that hell, jail, or clouds do not exist.
Atheist assert one and only one thing.....there is no evidence a supernatural God exists. Period. Full stop. What's delusional about that? Nothing. I can also still love my enemies. Don't need an old book to tell me that.
Trust and obey God - The wish to be a slave - a celestial North Korea!
"Faith" is the deliberate refusal to think critically and the glorification of willful ignorance that follows. Religion is the permission slip to set aside truthful thought. "Faith" is the excuse people give when they don't have a good reason to believe something. If they had a good reason, they would offer that as justification for their belief, not "faith".
If religion was kept in their churches and their heads, and that they didn't think they are superior to others, I'd be generally OK with that. If you want to bask in self-imposed victimhood over something happening between your ears, no one can stop you.
"One does not have to be religious to hold the values thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not covet what is thy neighbors, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Clyde. Those are human values that existed long before your old book was written" That is a pretty bold assertion, but where is your evidence to make such a claim? The Video did appeal to my sense of humor though, as it implies just the opposite opinions found in John Milton's "Paradise Lost". To be a slave to appetite is not freedom, but as the old maxim goes "To each his own" certainly applies to those warmongering factions whose appetites are insatiable. How does one reconcile the differences between words and actions if there is no such thing as good faith and bad?
"
But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities" (2nd Peter 2:10) Where is the dignity found in calling any form of war civil?
True morality is doing what is right without the threat of divine retribution nor the possibility of divine reward.
(2nd Peter 2:10) Well, if you referenced Biblical scriptures – it must be true. LMAFO. It still amazes me that Christians think the Bible is evidence. The Bible is the CLAIM, with no evidence. Why is it so hard for people to understand that "My book is true because my book says it is true" is not a valid form of reasoning?
Scriptures are just the scribbling of ancient ignorant, superstitious, religious cultists. It's always ironic to hear the hundredth different interpretation of the gospels ~ with the complete certainty to say that everyone else got it wrong. And these are the people that consider themselves humble.
No-one would believe these fantastical stories in scripture if they hadn't been born into a world full of people who already believed the same thing. If a Jew, Christian or Muslim woke up tomorrow and found himself in a world where there were no other believers, how soon would it be before they became too embarrassed to admit to believing in such things as flying horses and talking snakes? They'd rightly be thought insane.
The stories in the Bible made the Church rich. While the truth lay outside of that Bible. To be fooled is not an insult, to stay in the foolery is an insult to ones self.
You give me the impression Clyde that you have never read a counter argument to any of your positions. You need folks to just accept that your assumptions are true without evidence. If they won't, then they are not open-minded.
I think I can understand your avoiding my questions Dennis, In the first video you offer is "Situational Ethics and Moral Relativism" In the amorphous shifting sands of "Reason"? If the morals and dogma's of Christopher Hitchen's is your "Proof" than it will not do me any good to try to convince you otherwise. The second video was truly tragic when he described what happened to that girl in Yemen. Although cults have the same characteristics of "occulting" knowledge away from the masses, (I tend to think of Mormonism for instance) eventually those closely guarded "belief's" do get challenged. Atheism as you've previously mentioned is in and of itself a religion if you wanted to be candid about it.
If the morals and dogmas of Religion is your "Proof" then likewise it will not do me any good to try to convince you otherwise.
For me at this point pretending to respect people’s religious beliefs is an exercise in futility. I do not respect people who CHOOSE to be gullible and uneducated - and try to foist that nonsense onto me
Telling your young children…. “He’s your God. You shall love him. If you don’t, he will torture you forever”. Demanding kids love somebody they fear. The very essence of sadomasochism. How many kids has that screwed up for life?
Most Christians have devoted most of their life to the religion and are very susceptible to the sunk cost fallacy. They hold on to this belief for so long that even if they see the flaws in it, they feel that they just wasted part of their life, so they hold onto it to feel better. If Christians could just state this fact, these discussions would be much shorter. "I believe this Christian theology simply because I was randomly born into this culture and was told to believe it as a child. I have no shred of verifiable data or empirical science-based evidence for any supernatural events or Gods. I just believe it."
Theist: You cannot see, hear, touch or smell my all-powerful God.
Same Theist: YOU have the burden of proof to show me he doesn't exist.
"God exists outside of time and space".
OK…so never and nowhere. I'll go with that.
Outside of time and space - a way of saying "imaginary".
And on the first day. Man created God.
*
The perennial classic: "Isn't atheism just another religion?"
The question is always posed by these gentle, humble Christians as a sly put-down. Its pejorative. It is meant to put atheists in their place (You think religion is so stupid? Well, your atheism is just another religion, so you are also stupid! Hah!).
Or to expose atheists as hypocrites (You condemn religious people, but you atheists are not so different, so there!).
Or at best, it is meant to be snarkily clever (Bet you didn't think of that Mister Atheist Smarty Pants!).
What makes something a religion? Simple: the supernatural. Religions are social movements that maintain a belief in the supernatural. It's members engage in rituals predicated on shared supernatural beliefs. It is belief in God, or angels, or karma, or heaven, or Allah, or spirits, or past lives, or zombies, or Vishnu, or Satan, or Jesus, etc. And the gatherings, rites, and activities that go on as a result of those beliefs.
Thats what makes religion religion.
Atheism lacks a belief in the supernatural. As such, it is not a religion.
Calling atheism a religion is like calling abstinence a sexual position, or baldness a hair color, or not collecting stamps a hobby.
Although your anthropocentric hubris denotes narcissistic intellectualism, Your word salads are lacking substance. But meeting you in the middle, at least we can agree to disagree.
For whom you are lighting a candle, then verily it shall be bloweth out by me. "I didn't ask for a candle to be lit for me, I don't want it, I don't need it. Have your Candle back. Thank you very much. For as long as you insist on believing in the supernatural, we cannot meet in the middle, and we cannot agree to disagree."
It's impossible to argue from logic when your opponent basically claims 'MAGIC.' “Did Jesus resurrect?” “Yep!” “Is he still alive?” “Yep!” “Cool, then can I see him?” “We’ll, it’s complicated…”
Jesus is like Nylon. Man made. The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.
The believer says NO AMOUNT of evidence could change his mind, the non-believer says ANY amount of evidence could change his mind.
Where did my morality derive from? Frankly I don’t care, it could be derived from tribal utility borne of generations of human evolution, but what I do know is that I see the lack of morality in the actions of professed religious people and movements every day on my TV. Like in Gaza.
In what way is a morality dictated by God "objective". It is the opposite of objective. It begs the question: Is something true or moral because God says it, or does God say it because it is true or moral? In the first case, that makes morality subjective. God could say anything, and it would be true or moral because of his "authority". Thus, truth or morality is subjective to God's position.
In the second case, truth or morality is objective, but independent from God's thinking. If God only says something if it is true or moral, then the truth of that statement must exist prior to God's thinking on it. Therefore, truth or morality has an objective basis outside of God. There is some objective reality greater than God. This is the great dilemma of morality in Religion.
If you concede that only GOD stops you from doing bad things, then you are a bad person who is only kept in check by your own cowardice.
Who is the last atheist that sawed the head off an infidel, or strapped explosives to his belt to kill hundreds in a public square, or publicly hung a homosexual, or drove planes into buildings where people were at work, or committed genocide in the name of a GOD?
Religion - People killing each other trying to decide who has the best imaginary friend. The divided states of delusion, hubris, arrogance, ignorance, hypocrisy and stupidity.
Atheism is the only true default position when it comes to the question of “God”. The only way to prove Atheism wrong is by proving that a “God” exist. The brightest minds in history have never been able to do that, Clyde.
Keep you imaginary Sky Daddy in your head, and in your Church please. Much appreciated! That "voice" in your head is not God. It is you pretending to be God. It is your "Ideal" self. Freud called it your "super-ego".
There's no arrogance like Christian humility. There's no ignorance like Christian knowledge, and there's no hate like Christian Love. Religious folk prove every day that arrogance and ignorance go hand in hand.
"Take the risk of thinking for yourself. Much more happiness, truth, beauty and wisdom will come to you that way."
RIP Christopher Hitchens, much of this World misses your words of wisdom.
Some interesting questions indeed. When Jesus's disciples called for "fire from heaven" (Luke 9:52-56), Jesus replied " For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them." (v56). Our own intrinsic knowledge calls us to desire peace, but the divisiveness of our common enemy Satan, will continue to divide men into warring factions as long as men choose to deceive their own hearts (consciousness), leavening the whole lump in the compromises of the mundane as opposed to a more excellent knowledge.(Luke 1:1-4).
My old book says that Jesus said "For the Son of man is not come to destroy, blah, blah, blah........"
Who wrote this nonsense? Your old book was written centuries after this guy Jeebus was supposed of existed. By unknown authors.
My favorite parts of the Bible are where Jesus is talking to God, himself, and no one else is around ~ and his conversation is quoted in the Bible.
"At what point does all of this stuff just break down and become just a lot of stupid shit that someone made up! They fucking made it up folks! It's make-believe!” – George Carlin
"Beyond the grave where time no longer exist is where the final arbitration of liars and truth-tellers will be settled."
Christins believe that when they get to heaven, they will know why and agree with God about all the people sent to hell. Thus, they will be either happy or indifferent about all their friends and family that get sent to hell. Just another dehumanizing aspect of religion.
When I realized Hell wasn’t true it was the biggest relief of my life. I couldn’t get my head around having friends and family burning in hell while I enjoyed paradise. Also, I now don’t worry that people are in danger of burning in hell if they don’t believe in the Bible. I’ve slept much better since.
Although dissenting opinions are a matter of freedom to chose for oneself, as a matter of principle, those who take issue with "Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not covet what is thy neighbors, Thou shalt not bear false witness, can undoubtedly advance any given argument. To assert that hell, jail, or clouds do not exist hasn't convinced me that your belief's are not founded in centuries of Human experience, but selective bigotry against those who do not share in your delusions It's OK. I can still love my enemies, because I do not look to my own understanding but a little higher. Yes, they can kill my body, they've done it before, but they cannot shake my faith.
One does not have to be religious to hold the values thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not covet what is thy neighbors, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Clyde. Those are human values that existed long before your old book was written.
Atheists don't assert that hell, jail, or clouds do not exist.
Atheist assert one and only one thing.....there is no evidence a supernatural God exists. Period. Full stop. What's delusional about that? Nothing. I can also still love my enemies. Don't need an old book to tell me that.
Trust and obey God - The wish to be a slave - a celestial North Korea!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPD1YGghtDk
"Faith" is the deliberate refusal to think critically and the glorification of willful ignorance that follows. Religion is the permission slip to set aside truthful thought. "Faith" is the excuse people give when they don't have a good reason to believe something. If they had a good reason, they would offer that as justification for their belief, not "faith".
If religion was kept in their churches and their heads, and that they didn't think they are superior to others, I'd be generally OK with that. If you want to bask in self-imposed victimhood over something happening between your ears, no one can stop you.
"One does not have to be religious to hold the values thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not covet what is thy neighbors, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Clyde. Those are human values that existed long before your old book was written" That is a pretty bold assertion, but where is your evidence to make such a claim? The Video did appeal to my sense of humor though, as it implies just the opposite opinions found in John Milton's "Paradise Lost". To be a slave to appetite is not freedom, but as the old maxim goes "To each his own" certainly applies to those warmongering factions whose appetites are insatiable. How does one reconcile the differences between words and actions if there is no such thing as good faith and bad?
"
But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities" (2nd Peter 2:10) Where is the dignity found in calling any form of war civil?
10 Minutes that Proves Morality Doesn’t Come From Religion
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vm0HC8InIhM&t=28s
Christopher Hitchens destroys the myth that morality comes from religion
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iG-JLmc4Krw&t=104s
True morality is doing what is right without the threat of divine retribution nor the possibility of divine reward.
(2nd Peter 2:10) Well, if you referenced Biblical scriptures – it must be true. LMAFO. It still amazes me that Christians think the Bible is evidence. The Bible is the CLAIM, with no evidence. Why is it so hard for people to understand that "My book is true because my book says it is true" is not a valid form of reasoning?
Scriptures are just the scribbling of ancient ignorant, superstitious, religious cultists. It's always ironic to hear the hundredth different interpretation of the gospels ~ with the complete certainty to say that everyone else got it wrong. And these are the people that consider themselves humble.
No-one would believe these fantastical stories in scripture if they hadn't been born into a world full of people who already believed the same thing. If a Jew, Christian or Muslim woke up tomorrow and found himself in a world where there were no other believers, how soon would it be before they became too embarrassed to admit to believing in such things as flying horses and talking snakes? They'd rightly be thought insane.
The stories in the Bible made the Church rich. While the truth lay outside of that Bible. To be fooled is not an insult, to stay in the foolery is an insult to ones self.
You give me the impression Clyde that you have never read a counter argument to any of your positions. You need folks to just accept that your assumptions are true without evidence. If they won't, then they are not open-minded.
I think I can understand your avoiding my questions Dennis, In the first video you offer is "Situational Ethics and Moral Relativism" In the amorphous shifting sands of "Reason"? If the morals and dogma's of Christopher Hitchen's is your "Proof" than it will not do me any good to try to convince you otherwise. The second video was truly tragic when he described what happened to that girl in Yemen. Although cults have the same characteristics of "occulting" knowledge away from the masses, (I tend to think of Mormonism for instance) eventually those closely guarded "belief's" do get challenged. Atheism as you've previously mentioned is in and of itself a religion if you wanted to be candid about it.
If the morals and dogmas of Religion is your "Proof" then likewise it will not do me any good to try to convince you otherwise.
For me at this point pretending to respect people’s religious beliefs is an exercise in futility. I do not respect people who CHOOSE to be gullible and uneducated - and try to foist that nonsense onto me
Telling your young children…. “He’s your God. You shall love him. If you don’t, he will torture you forever”. Demanding kids love somebody they fear. The very essence of sadomasochism. How many kids has that screwed up for life?
Most Christians have devoted most of their life to the religion and are very susceptible to the sunk cost fallacy. They hold on to this belief for so long that even if they see the flaws in it, they feel that they just wasted part of their life, so they hold onto it to feel better. If Christians could just state this fact, these discussions would be much shorter. "I believe this Christian theology simply because I was randomly born into this culture and was told to believe it as a child. I have no shred of verifiable data or empirical science-based evidence for any supernatural events or Gods. I just believe it."
Theist: You cannot see, hear, touch or smell my all-powerful God.
Same Theist: YOU have the burden of proof to show me he doesn't exist.
"God exists outside of time and space".
OK…so never and nowhere. I'll go with that.
Outside of time and space - a way of saying "imaginary".
And on the first day. Man created God.
*
The perennial classic: "Isn't atheism just another religion?"
The question is always posed by these gentle, humble Christians as a sly put-down. Its pejorative. It is meant to put atheists in their place (You think religion is so stupid? Well, your atheism is just another religion, so you are also stupid! Hah!).
Or to expose atheists as hypocrites (You condemn religious people, but you atheists are not so different, so there!).
Or at best, it is meant to be snarkily clever (Bet you didn't think of that Mister Atheist Smarty Pants!).
What makes something a religion? Simple: the supernatural. Religions are social movements that maintain a belief in the supernatural. It's members engage in rituals predicated on shared supernatural beliefs. It is belief in God, or angels, or karma, or heaven, or Allah, or spirits, or past lives, or zombies, or Vishnu, or Satan, or Jesus, etc. And the gatherings, rites, and activities that go on as a result of those beliefs.
Thats what makes religion religion.
Atheism lacks a belief in the supernatural. As such, it is not a religion.
Calling atheism a religion is like calling abstinence a sexual position, or baldness a hair color, or not collecting stamps a hobby.
Although your anthropocentric hubris denotes narcissistic intellectualism, Your word salads are lacking substance. But meeting you in the middle, at least we can agree to disagree.
For whom you are lighting a candle, then verily it shall be bloweth out by me. "I didn't ask for a candle to be lit for me, I don't want it, I don't need it. Have your Candle back. Thank you very much. For as long as you insist on believing in the supernatural, we cannot meet in the middle, and we cannot agree to disagree."
It's impossible to argue from logic when your opponent basically claims 'MAGIC.' “Did Jesus resurrect?” “Yep!” “Is he still alive?” “Yep!” “Cool, then can I see him?” “We’ll, it’s complicated…”
Jesus is like Nylon. Man made. The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.
The believer says NO AMOUNT of evidence could change his mind, the non-believer says ANY amount of evidence could change his mind.
Where did my morality derive from? Frankly I don’t care, it could be derived from tribal utility borne of generations of human evolution, but what I do know is that I see the lack of morality in the actions of professed religious people and movements every day on my TV. Like in Gaza.
In what way is a morality dictated by God "objective". It is the opposite of objective. It begs the question: Is something true or moral because God says it, or does God say it because it is true or moral? In the first case, that makes morality subjective. God could say anything, and it would be true or moral because of his "authority". Thus, truth or morality is subjective to God's position.
In the second case, truth or morality is objective, but independent from God's thinking. If God only says something if it is true or moral, then the truth of that statement must exist prior to God's thinking on it. Therefore, truth or morality has an objective basis outside of God. There is some objective reality greater than God. This is the great dilemma of morality in Religion.
If you concede that only GOD stops you from doing bad things, then you are a bad person who is only kept in check by your own cowardice.
Who is the last atheist that sawed the head off an infidel, or strapped explosives to his belt to kill hundreds in a public square, or publicly hung a homosexual, or drove planes into buildings where people were at work, or committed genocide in the name of a GOD?
Religion - People killing each other trying to decide who has the best imaginary friend. The divided states of delusion, hubris, arrogance, ignorance, hypocrisy and stupidity.
Atheism is the only true default position when it comes to the question of “God”. The only way to prove Atheism wrong is by proving that a “God” exist. The brightest minds in history have never been able to do that, Clyde.
Keep you imaginary Sky Daddy in your head, and in your Church please. Much appreciated! That "voice" in your head is not God. It is you pretending to be God. It is your "Ideal" self. Freud called it your "super-ego".
There's no arrogance like Christian humility. There's no ignorance like Christian knowledge, and there's no hate like Christian Love. Religious folk prove every day that arrogance and ignorance go hand in hand.
"Take the risk of thinking for yourself. Much more happiness, truth, beauty and wisdom will come to you that way."
RIP Christopher Hitchens, much of this World misses your words of wisdom.