As my avatar and nom de plume might suggest, I'm not exactly unsympathetic to trains and railroading. However, no sane person is going to look at the California High-Speed Rail Ridiculous and/or Amtrak and even imagine that government railroading won't be a breathtaking, off-the-charts, money black hole that will please no one, if by a miracle any service should appear. (And a guest essay that requires my information and possible my money is a non-starter.) Sorry.
@caseyjones375369, what do you mean by this: >> (And a guest essay that requires my information and possible my money is a non-starter.) Sorry. <<
This post you are commenting on is a Podcast episode. Bill Moyer is the guest on the podcast speaking to JHK but it's not a "guest essay." You can just press play to listen, no information or money is required. You can also click the "Transcript" button above to read an AI generated transcript (which is fairly accurate).
Got it Casey. Am near Chattanooga. I-75 went from 2 lanes to 3 each way to and through ATL years ago. Helpful. But today the 18’s are slamming the super slab with such volume you get stuck behind a back door, can’t see shit and the 4’s ram up on you if your going less that 80-85 mph. Some A-holes will actually play lane tag at 90mph +. It’s a freeking zoo. Years ago they talked about an “Up the Middle” high speed train on stilts in the Freeway median between Knoxville/Chatt/ATL Hartsfield. No fuss no muss express and local connections. Cool. Exciting prospect. Then the numbers came out. Nada. So here we are. Orlando to Space Coast has a high speed line which is sweet. And a line dropping down to Miami. All new cars and engines. Disney runs some express service to their Cruise line boats at Cape Canaveral linking their busses to Disney World. It’s very Euro looking. Nice clean designs. Typical Disney artwork and paint schemes. Pretty fast. Mostly elevated with some surface track. Can buy trans packages from the Park or Orlando motel to your boat and back with no parking hassles. And air conditioned! So we can do it. But today at scale it’s a moon shot. And your thoughts about NE corridor right on. And getting dangerous.
I watched the City of Houston tear up the ex Katy tracks by I 10 so they could turn it into the widest freeway in North America because the city doesn't want to budget what they know will negate what's the easiest way to reduce smog output.
Car culture in America aligns with the US sense of freedom. Freedom to get in your car at any moment to get away - or head ‘home’ wherever that may be - on your own timeline with your own amount of rest stops and time to dilly-dally on those stops, etc.
Trains are for planned trips where you always make the right turn at the right time to get to the right spot - and there’s nothing wrong with that - but life is worth living when you make a left turn now and again.
But, why not both? I don’t think the plan is to get rid of autos, but give options, and get some or lots of semis off the roads. They do the most damage.
Of course both!… not cars at the expense of trains anymore then trains at the expense of cars… but face it; Cars are freedom - every teen or 20-something (these days) knows the feeling of freedom getting your first car. Do other kids in other ‘modern/urban’ cities and/or countries get that same experience?… very unique to first world countries. In third world countries, getting a car for oneself might be akin to being a lottery winner in terms of personal freedom and career possibilities.
Cars are about freedom = The US is about Freedom… it makes sense this is where we are.
I can explain this in one sentence since I live in a big city which has become the fourth largest in North America: If you don't plan regional rail in the early development of a city and think you can shove it down everyone's throat by making it easier for us to get somewhere by vehicle because the route of the train is so far out of the way and not to mention if we're already developed out like where I am, all you are doing is creating a giant interloper who'll affect property values and bring crime in with it the people of our community are not going to tolerate especially when our property values are approaching or are over the millions.
DM. There’s that too. I have enjoyed the N. Illinois Prairie Path network. A lot. Fabulous. Wisconsin has alot of R to T’s as well some through tunnels. Pretty cool. Signs and maps to guide a day-trip or multi day event. Fall with color change is spectacular.
If you electrify the trains, the EMFs inside are ridiculously high. I am EMF sensitive, and would not be able to take a train. Please study up on why electric trains are VERY BAD FOR HUMANS.
JS. Apparently the Europeans have found a way around the EMF issue ?? The Japanese with MAG-LEV propulsion…..? Chinese a 380 mph train about to debut. Never hear about EMF issues in transportation. Milwaukee Wi. has just re-ignited their centuries old city “Street Car” lines. Overhead cables. Old school design. People love it. Quiet. Quaint. Planning more track. Tourist interest as well connects downtown to the Lake front festivals and the beaches and famous Wingspread Art Museum.
JS. You do the research. I actually don’t care. My experience all over the known world tells me there are no signs saying “Beware of dangerous EMF radiation when using these facilities or riding on our trains”. Nope. Nada. Zip. So guess you stay home or use gasoline powered vehicles and live in a massive Faraday enclosure.
JS. Again. All your resistance to HS rail is economic. NOT EMF related. Very different story. Got it. Agreed. It would be a money pit. So we transport ourselves with Oil. Big deal. Not a bad option.
Ps For all Climate Change freaks out there, the oceans of the world are not rising. Plymouth Rock seen in Massachusetts in the water of the Atlantic Ocean (in a steel cage so no one can mess with it) has not see one mm of water level rise since the Mayflower. Of course that excludes major tidal changes enhanced by occasional assistance from the Moon.
I will be reading this. I had the opportunity to use Amtrak last February for a couple trips from Eastern Washington to Seattle. NEVER was a single train on time; one was over 7 hours off schedule( car trip is less than 5 hours). Part of the hold up was snow.... Trains started losing time from origination back east. Another delay, frozen couplers when picking up another car. But probably the most inefficient use of rail is routing it thru neighborhoods( probably due to sprawl more than original design) the train was relegated to speeds of 30 mph or less for a considerable percentage of the distance.
One can't depend on the train for appointments or time dependant arrivals/ connections.
Longer trips are costly if you want to be able to shower or sleep, well more expensive than flying but quite economical and comfortable for a day trip. Bring your own food as only microwaved hot dogs/ burgers etc available for purchase if you don't purchase a room.
There's tons that could be done to improve the experience and encourage usage but like everything else it will cost billions and take decades I'm sure.
Eisenhower went for concrete instead of rail. It was all over for trains except for freight runs and some scenic passenger routes. I like trains. But air and concrete won the battle. I have been all over Europe on first class train passes. Fabulous. On time. Smoothe. Quiet. Gorgeous Stations. Dropped you in city centers close to everything. Even transfers to water and canals. America wanted Happy Motoring and Doris Day “See the USA in your Chevrolet”. That and a two car garage. Hard to overcome.
Bill Moyers is a clown. Serious as a heart attack but a clown nonetheless.
I don't do ad hominem but otherwise spot on, I'm afraid. There are some gorgeous runs in this country and probably enough demand east of the Mississippi but the Amtrak geniuses can't even make the NE Corridor work, much less anything long haul.
Pittsburgh ran electric streetcars (trolley cars) from downtown out to the suburbs until well into the 70's. Now the lines and right-of-ways have been converted to light rail and the new system is working. EROEI is the killer for most existing systems in the NE Corridor, including the longer runs, and don't think the "Amtrak geniuses" don't know this.
A short term answer would be to identify corridors over 1,500 miles where one could build intermodal truck / rail facilities in urban areas with proximity to railroads and freeways.
People are in an unnecessary hurry. At a practical operational level, steam railroading was labor intensive. Diesel was better. Electric has been shown to be more efficient only on high traffic lines, at least with our current technology.
We have a culture-war facing this country, Passenger rail is a (perhaps small) part of the problem. Bill Moyer is a very smart guy, but very idealistic.
At some point folks might figure out the fact that most rail routes in the US are uneconomical to electrify, was barely feasible when steam was king. Long ago the Great Northern's line through the Cascade tunnel was electrified, after 1956 that was done away with, when a ventilation system was installed allowing diesels to be used.
And where will all this electricity come from? Wind and solar? LOL. The only thing that might work is nuclear, and the powers that be aren't considered that.
Answer: Fix the US road and bridge system. Western pioneers didn’t have the freedom that cars provide today, so they relied on steam engines. Don’t look back. Look forward to more efficient, comfortable and air conditioned cars.
Great discussion Jim and Bill. Couple of thoughts: I agree with Bill that high speed rail is always going to be a boondoggle. Aside from the ridiculous expense, who is needing to travel 700 miles in two hours? The same people that flew the Concorde. Ivan Illich addressed this issue of speed (and space and time) in his 1974 book *Energy and Equity*, with chapters like "Speed-Stunted Imagination", "Net Transfer of Lifetime", and "The Ineffectiveness of Acceleration." This book is free online in PDF Form.
As far as tracks being converted to rail trails, I am a dedicated bicyclist and I am very much against this trend. I'd rather see the trails built adjacent to the railroad tracks, to preserve them for their original use down the line.
Thank you so much for this posting! I've subscribed to the Solutionary Rail channel. This is true long-term thinking that needs to be implemented as we the costs of an ever-warming planet become more apparent.
Peace. Well somebody has to spoil the conversation with Climate Change. A fabricated crock. Just like Fossil Fuel myth and Peak Oil. The world needs to get back to making shit people need and want and do it efficiently and profitably and kicking government regulation out of the mix.
No wonder your guest lives on an island because he doesn't know half of how much railroads don't want to deal with passenger service over the goods this country demands. If Amtrak melted off the face of the earth tomorrow, the railroad host wouldn't miss it because when one passenger train malfunctions in the cold weather with the new Siemens power, a dispatcher has a bigger headache dealing with crews who demand to know why they're being delayed by a passenger train not to mention the fact it was all the Wall Street bankers and wealthy families who didn't want us to travel many ways.
As my avatar and nom de plume might suggest, I'm not exactly unsympathetic to trains and railroading. However, no sane person is going to look at the California High-Speed Rail Ridiculous and/or Amtrak and even imagine that government railroading won't be a breathtaking, off-the-charts, money black hole that will please no one, if by a miracle any service should appear. (And a guest essay that requires my information and possible my money is a non-starter.) Sorry.
@caseyjones375369, what do you mean by this: >> (And a guest essay that requires my information and possible my money is a non-starter.) Sorry. <<
This post you are commenting on is a Podcast episode. Bill Moyer is the guest on the podcast speaking to JHK but it's not a "guest essay." You can just press play to listen, no information or money is required. You can also click the "Transcript" button above to read an AI generated transcript (which is fairly accurate).
Got it Casey. Am near Chattanooga. I-75 went from 2 lanes to 3 each way to and through ATL years ago. Helpful. But today the 18’s are slamming the super slab with such volume you get stuck behind a back door, can’t see shit and the 4’s ram up on you if your going less that 80-85 mph. Some A-holes will actually play lane tag at 90mph +. It’s a freeking zoo. Years ago they talked about an “Up the Middle” high speed train on stilts in the Freeway median between Knoxville/Chatt/ATL Hartsfield. No fuss no muss express and local connections. Cool. Exciting prospect. Then the numbers came out. Nada. So here we are. Orlando to Space Coast has a high speed line which is sweet. And a line dropping down to Miami. All new cars and engines. Disney runs some express service to their Cruise line boats at Cape Canaveral linking their busses to Disney World. It’s very Euro looking. Nice clean designs. Typical Disney artwork and paint schemes. Pretty fast. Mostly elevated with some surface track. Can buy trans packages from the Park or Orlando motel to your boat and back with no parking hassles. And air conditioned! So we can do it. But today at scale it’s a moon shot. And your thoughts about NE corridor right on. And getting dangerous.
I watched the City of Houston tear up the ex Katy tracks by I 10 so they could turn it into the widest freeway in North America because the city doesn't want to budget what they know will negate what's the easiest way to reduce smog output.
Car culture in America aligns with the US sense of freedom. Freedom to get in your car at any moment to get away - or head ‘home’ wherever that may be - on your own timeline with your own amount of rest stops and time to dilly-dally on those stops, etc.
Trains are for planned trips where you always make the right turn at the right time to get to the right spot - and there’s nothing wrong with that - but life is worth living when you make a left turn now and again.
But, why not both? I don’t think the plan is to get rid of autos, but give options, and get some or lots of semis off the roads. They do the most damage.
Of course both!… not cars at the expense of trains anymore then trains at the expense of cars… but face it; Cars are freedom - every teen or 20-something (these days) knows the feeling of freedom getting your first car. Do other kids in other ‘modern/urban’ cities and/or countries get that same experience?… very unique to first world countries. In third world countries, getting a car for oneself might be akin to being a lottery winner in terms of personal freedom and career possibilities.
Cars are about freedom = The US is about Freedom… it makes sense this is where we are.
I can explain this in one sentence since I live in a big city which has become the fourth largest in North America: If you don't plan regional rail in the early development of a city and think you can shove it down everyone's throat by making it easier for us to get somewhere by vehicle because the route of the train is so far out of the way and not to mention if we're already developed out like where I am, all you are doing is creating a giant interloper who'll affect property values and bring crime in with it the people of our community are not going to tolerate especially when our property values are approaching or are over the millions.
Agreed 💯
Does that mean we take back all the rails-to-trails that have been turned into jogging and cycle paths? Never gonna happen.
No, people are butt-fuck stupid. They see nothing and could care less.
DM. There’s that too. I have enjoyed the N. Illinois Prairie Path network. A lot. Fabulous. Wisconsin has alot of R to T’s as well some through tunnels. Pretty cool. Signs and maps to guide a day-trip or multi day event. Fall with color change is spectacular.
If you electrify the trains, the EMFs inside are ridiculously high. I am EMF sensitive, and would not be able to take a train. Please study up on why electric trains are VERY BAD FOR HUMANS.
Links to start with; https://www.reuters.com/article/us-railway-cancer/magnetic-fields-tied-to-railway-workers-cancer-idUSHO97905220070529/
https://harapad.com/blog/travel-and-exposure-to-electromagnetic-fields/
JS. Apparently the Europeans have found a way around the EMF issue ?? The Japanese with MAG-LEV propulsion…..? Chinese a 380 mph train about to debut. Never hear about EMF issues in transportation. Milwaukee Wi. has just re-ignited their centuries old city “Street Car” lines. Overhead cables. Old school design. People love it. Quiet. Quaint. Planning more track. Tourist interest as well connects downtown to the Lake front festivals and the beaches and famous Wingspread Art Museum.
Please do some research, WV, the EMF damage to humans is not solved, apparently. Also, the exposures heavily affect those who simply live nearby.
https://www.cato.org/blog/lesson-japans-high-speed-trains
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27655489/
https://www.cato.org/policy-analysis/high-speed-money-sink-why-united-states-should-not-spend-trillions-obsolete
JS. You do the research. I actually don’t care. My experience all over the known world tells me there are no signs saying “Beware of dangerous EMF radiation when using these facilities or riding on our trains”. Nope. Nada. Zip. So guess you stay home or use gasoline powered vehicles and live in a massive Faraday enclosure.
JS. Again. All your resistance to HS rail is economic. NOT EMF related. Very different story. Got it. Agreed. It would be a money pit. So we transport ourselves with Oil. Big deal. Not a bad option.
Ps For all Climate Change freaks out there, the oceans of the world are not rising. Plymouth Rock seen in Massachusetts in the water of the Atlantic Ocean (in a steel cage so no one can mess with it) has not see one mm of water level rise since the Mayflower. Of course that excludes major tidal changes enhanced by occasional assistance from the Moon.
Most railroad enginrs today are diesel-electric, so if there is an electrmotive force radiative effect we should be seeing it already.
I will be reading this. I had the opportunity to use Amtrak last February for a couple trips from Eastern Washington to Seattle. NEVER was a single train on time; one was over 7 hours off schedule( car trip is less than 5 hours). Part of the hold up was snow.... Trains started losing time from origination back east. Another delay, frozen couplers when picking up another car. But probably the most inefficient use of rail is routing it thru neighborhoods( probably due to sprawl more than original design) the train was relegated to speeds of 30 mph or less for a considerable percentage of the distance.
One can't depend on the train for appointments or time dependant arrivals/ connections.
Longer trips are costly if you want to be able to shower or sleep, well more expensive than flying but quite economical and comfortable for a day trip. Bring your own food as only microwaved hot dogs/ burgers etc available for purchase if you don't purchase a room.
There's tons that could be done to improve the experience and encourage usage but like everything else it will cost billions and take decades I'm sure.
Eisenhower went for concrete instead of rail. It was all over for trains except for freight runs and some scenic passenger routes. I like trains. But air and concrete won the battle. I have been all over Europe on first class train passes. Fabulous. On time. Smoothe. Quiet. Gorgeous Stations. Dropped you in city centers close to everything. Even transfers to water and canals. America wanted Happy Motoring and Doris Day “See the USA in your Chevrolet”. That and a two car garage. Hard to overcome.
Bill Moyers is a clown. Serious as a heart attack but a clown nonetheless.
I don't do ad hominem but otherwise spot on, I'm afraid. There are some gorgeous runs in this country and probably enough demand east of the Mississippi but the Amtrak geniuses can't even make the NE Corridor work, much less anything long haul.
Pittsburgh ran electric streetcars (trolley cars) from downtown out to the suburbs until well into the 70's. Now the lines and right-of-ways have been converted to light rail and the new system is working. EROEI is the killer for most existing systems in the NE Corridor, including the longer runs, and don't think the "Amtrak geniuses" don't know this.
A short term answer would be to identify corridors over 1,500 miles where one could build intermodal truck / rail facilities in urban areas with proximity to railroads and freeways.
If electric trains are the solution, what in Hell was the problem?
People are in an unnecessary hurry. At a practical operational level, steam railroading was labor intensive. Diesel was better. Electric has been shown to be more efficient only on high traffic lines, at least with our current technology.
We have a culture-war facing this country, Passenger rail is a (perhaps small) part of the problem. Bill Moyer is a very smart guy, but very idealistic.
Jim B, the every warming planet caused by burning hydrocarbons: https://gml.noaa.gov/ccgg/trends/
The rail system upgrade may keep the stressed country from falling apart. If you are young you may live to see this.
Peace: We are experiencing the warming leg of an interglacial period. Hydrocarbons have virtually no influence on it.
Look it up.
Right you are. But it's hard to be righteous about geological phenomena. Mother nature just won't listen to us!! Shame on her!
googlized web hides these facts almost completely.
At some point folks might figure out the fact that most rail routes in the US are uneconomical to electrify, was barely feasible when steam was king. Long ago the Great Northern's line through the Cascade tunnel was electrified, after 1956 that was done away with, when a ventilation system was installed allowing diesels to be used.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cascade_Tunnel
For freight runs of over a thousand five hundred miles or so, intermodal freight rail can make sense. But rarely less than that.
I like your pen name. Been to the Skookumchuck rapids in years long past.
And where will all this electricity come from? Wind and solar? LOL. The only thing that might work is nuclear, and the powers that be aren't considered that.
Answer: Fix the US road and bridge system. Western pioneers didn’t have the freedom that cars provide today, so they relied on steam engines. Don’t look back. Look forward to more efficient, comfortable and air conditioned cars.
Great discussion Jim and Bill. Couple of thoughts: I agree with Bill that high speed rail is always going to be a boondoggle. Aside from the ridiculous expense, who is needing to travel 700 miles in two hours? The same people that flew the Concorde. Ivan Illich addressed this issue of speed (and space and time) in his 1974 book *Energy and Equity*, with chapters like "Speed-Stunted Imagination", "Net Transfer of Lifetime", and "The Ineffectiveness of Acceleration." This book is free online in PDF Form.
As far as tracks being converted to rail trails, I am a dedicated bicyclist and I am very much against this trend. I'd rather see the trails built adjacent to the railroad tracks, to preserve them for their original use down the line.
Thank you so much for this posting! I've subscribed to the Solutionary Rail channel. This is true long-term thinking that needs to be implemented as we the costs of an ever-warming planet become more apparent.
Peace. Well somebody has to spoil the conversation with Climate Change. A fabricated crock. Just like Fossil Fuel myth and Peak Oil. The world needs to get back to making shit people need and want and do it efficiently and profitably and kicking government regulation out of the mix.
Very well stated and right on accurate. Thanks for your brief but comprehensive analysis.
No wonder your guest lives on an island because he doesn't know half of how much railroads don't want to deal with passenger service over the goods this country demands. If Amtrak melted off the face of the earth tomorrow, the railroad host wouldn't miss it because when one passenger train malfunctions in the cold weather with the new Siemens power, a dispatcher has a bigger headache dealing with crews who demand to know why they're being delayed by a passenger train not to mention the fact it was all the Wall Street bankers and wealthy families who didn't want us to travel many ways.
Well done, he knows he's rail, need to hear more from him.. And he's from my area, your kids went to school on the island, it's an interesting place.