um, no. As a former farm worker and friend of a farmer, I saw how the foreign workers (many here under special programs for the season) worked so much harder than anyone else, even earnest strong college kids.
um, no. As a former farm worker and friend of a farmer, I saw how the foreign workers (many here under special programs for the season) worked so much harder than anyone else, even earnest strong college kids.
As a farm worker, I can only laugh at this. The issues are complex, involving housing, health care, transportation, and modern expectations. And stop crying that your eggs cost $5, not $2. That's what they should cost. I pay a lot more for the good ones.
I'm not crying about anything. Anything of higher quality costs more. Your presumptiveness though proves my point. With the arguments you're making you may as well be a 19th century robber baron making profits off of the slave labor of children.
Always always the racist crap card-the favorite Scarlett Letter of progressive left. Augmented now by anti semitism. It would just be pathetically tiresome if it wasnтАЩt always levied with intent to eradicate.
Farmers would love to pay their staff members $50/hour---if they made anywhere near that. The average farmer in Massachusetts makes less than $35,000--and many aspire to that. There is also a housing shortage. And health care coverage is expensive (it used to be a good deal in Mass.). Customers need to suck it up and pay for what high-quality produce, eggs, and meat grown by well compensated staff costs. But instead they whine when eggs cost more than $3/dozen. Do you know what goes into raising chickens and eggs well and getting them to market, where they are marked up by the stores?
Yep! i am not arguing the point that costs are somehow lower than they are. I agree that farmers should be fairly and actually generously compensated given the services they offer. And i am also aware of inflation and the unreasonable costs of everything. My point is that bringing in foreign labor to lower costs is not going to solve the long term problems you bring up. In fact, it will maintain the expectation of people that they can get a dozen eggs for 2 or 3 dollars. It is a like a drug habit. Outsourcing everything has led to the problems we are apparently "arguing" over.
Exactly, but what are folks going to do about it? I'd say it starts with consumers stopping their complaints about costs. Pay for good products made and grown by fairly compensated workers. If consumers are willing to do that, there will be less work for imported labor, if that's the goal.
Yes, consumers need to stop complaining about costs! I paint houses and charge $15K, the other painters in town charge $10K, and they're getting all the work. They need to stop complaining about costs, damnit! My kids need new shoes!
Edit/Clarifying: Your comments here are not consistent. You're saying farms should hire local white people (who really aren't always available), not migrant workers, even if the migrant workers are affordable and work harder? And that farms should not raise prices to reflect the cost of hiring local workers who have local housing and do not work to a top standard! Our farm is all locals but housing is an issue. Farms closer to Boston are able to use the programs that bring in Jamaicans and others legally and for a season and with housing and visa, etc. taken care of. Small farms are disappearing due to costs, markets, labor, etc. And again no one has ever said "did the farm laborers arrive?" at our farm. They are staff
If we want to give people a fair wage, that might have to be everyone in the civilization to maintain one that doesn't collapse. But this civ wants to eat its cake and have it too. But how does one do that? Well, one first eats their cake, waits for it to pass through their intestinal tract and voila; the cake again. Eat enough of that kind of cake and you, too, will collapse, like your idiocy-for-a-civilization.
Ironically, there's little that's civilized about it. Likewise, there's little that's actually economic about its 'economics'.
Over here in Nova Scotia, we grow our own apples. What apples show up in our grocery stores? Why apples from Chile of course. Cuz, 'economics'.
Because folks want predictably uniform apples at a certain price and year-round. We need to move away from that. I know it doesn't feel great when you crave green grapes in the winter and the only ones available are from Peru. Because: season. (BTW, when I visited my friend in Truro, I couldn't believe how many forgotten apple trees loaded with apples lined the roads. That was probably October.)
Yes, there should be no imported labor! But we should reserve the right to complain about what we wish to complain about. Reasonableness is often in the eyes of the beholder.
~ Fuck The Crony-Capitalist Plutarchy Farm Industry ~
"Bill Mollison: People question me coming through the American frontier these days. They ask, 'What's your occupation?' I say, 'I'm just a simple gardener.' And that is deeply seditious. If you're a simple person today, and want to live simply, that is awfully seditious. And to advise people to live simply is more seditious still.
You see, the worst thing about permaculture is that it's extremely successful, but it has no center, and no hierarchy.
Alan Atkisson (interviewer): So that's worst from whose perspective?
Bill: Anybody that wants to extinguish it. It's something with a million heads. It's a way of thinking which is already loose, and you can't put a way of thinking back in the box.
Alan: Is it an anarchist movement?
Bill: ...You won't get cooperation out of a hierarchical system. You get enforced directions from the top, and nothing I know of can run like that. I think the world would function extremely well with millions of little cooperative groups, all in relation to each other."
Staff members? Your choice of words is telling, Carol. They are farm laborers. If they don't like low wages, there are plenty of other opportunities. And don't make excuses for them. That's a cop out. It's called personal responsibility - a character trait missing from the Leftists. I don't care how crunchy they are.
But you don't work in the business. Your own terminology and defending cheap goods tell me that. At the farm, we discuss pricing and staffing every week.
Of course you do, because markets are competitive. When you can't compete, you're out. Truth is, most don't want a true free market, because they know they can't compete. Winners love competition - thrive on it - they compete and win, losers whine and go home.
You sound a poultry farmer. Want to sell eggs @ $5, guaranteed? Go into the commodities markets and do it. That's what they are there for, a hedge to mitigate risk, lock in operating profits and stabilize markets - not a casino, as many think.
again, if you were really in ag, you wouldn't make simplistic assumption about the farm operation I work with. And you would have a glimmer of the finer points of the farm markets. Go buy some cheap eggs and Peruvian grapes.
Footnote: The State of Louisiana, by it's State Constitution, outlawed slavery in 1864. My guess is that's a few years before she was born, so she's never really resided in a state where slavery is legal.
It brings me joy that you are amused. Though, i haven't a clue who SSS is. But an fyi to bring further levity to the situation..you must have forgotten how many Yankees were slave owners.
um, no. As a former farm worker and friend of a farmer, I saw how the foreign workers (many here under special programs for the season) worked so much harder than anyone else, even earnest strong college kids.
Some people are accustomed to slavery more than others. Sad that so many people still want slaves.
As a farm worker, I can only laugh at this. The issues are complex, involving housing, health care, transportation, and modern expectations. And stop crying that your eggs cost $5, not $2. That's what they should cost. I pay a lot more for the good ones.
I'm not crying about anything. Anything of higher quality costs more. Your presumptiveness though proves my point. With the arguments you're making you may as well be a 19th century robber baron making profits off of the slave labor of children.
Notice the last names on these two. You just nailed it
Always always the racist crap card-the favorite Scarlett Letter of progressive left. Augmented now by anti semitism. It would just be pathetically tiresome if it wasnтАЩt always levied with intent to eradicate.
Outed the jew
Yes..i see
Farmers would love to pay their staff members $50/hour---if they made anywhere near that. The average farmer in Massachusetts makes less than $35,000--and many aspire to that. There is also a housing shortage. And health care coverage is expensive (it used to be a good deal in Mass.). Customers need to suck it up and pay for what high-quality produce, eggs, and meat grown by well compensated staff costs. But instead they whine when eggs cost more than $3/dozen. Do you know what goes into raising chickens and eggs well and getting them to market, where they are marked up by the stores?
Yep! i am not arguing the point that costs are somehow lower than they are. I agree that farmers should be fairly and actually generously compensated given the services they offer. And i am also aware of inflation and the unreasonable costs of everything. My point is that bringing in foreign labor to lower costs is not going to solve the long term problems you bring up. In fact, it will maintain the expectation of people that they can get a dozen eggs for 2 or 3 dollars. It is a like a drug habit. Outsourcing everything has led to the problems we are apparently "arguing" over.
Exactly, but what are folks going to do about it? I'd say it starts with consumers stopping their complaints about costs. Pay for good products made and grown by fairly compensated workers. If consumers are willing to do that, there will be less work for imported labor, if that's the goal.
Yes, consumers need to stop complaining about costs! I paint houses and charge $15K, the other painters in town charge $10K, and they're getting all the work. They need to stop complaining about costs, damnit! My kids need new shoes!
Edit/Clarifying: Your comments here are not consistent. You're saying farms should hire local white people (who really aren't always available), not migrant workers, even if the migrant workers are affordable and work harder? And that farms should not raise prices to reflect the cost of hiring local workers who have local housing and do not work to a top standard! Our farm is all locals but housing is an issue. Farms closer to Boston are able to use the programs that bring in Jamaicans and others legally and for a season and with housing and visa, etc. taken care of. Small farms are disappearing due to costs, markets, labor, etc. And again no one has ever said "did the farm laborers arrive?" at our farm. They are staff
Your introduction of race is telling. Race has zero to do with economics. Try harder.
You are guilty of the sin of noticing. Odin smiles.
It's conversation worthy of Flatland.
youtu.be/UnURElCzGc0?si=B6tGX5iEoOwknlMu
~ Cart-Before-The-Horse Civilization ~
If we want to give people a fair wage, that might have to be everyone in the civilization to maintain one that doesn't collapse. But this civ wants to eat its cake and have it too. But how does one do that? Well, one first eats their cake, waits for it to pass through their intestinal tract and voila; the cake again. Eat enough of that kind of cake and you, too, will collapse, like your idiocy-for-a-civilization.
Ironically, there's little that's civilized about it. Likewise, there's little that's actually economic about its 'economics'.
Over here in Nova Scotia, we grow our own apples. What apples show up in our grocery stores? Why apples from Chile of course. Cuz, 'economics'.
Because folks want predictably uniform apples at a certain price and year-round. We need to move away from that. I know it doesn't feel great when you crave green grapes in the winter and the only ones available are from Peru. Because: season. (BTW, when I visited my friend in Truro, I couldn't believe how many forgotten apple trees loaded with apples lined the roads. That was probably October.)
Yes, there should be no imported labor! But we should reserve the right to complain about what we wish to complain about. Reasonableness is often in the eyes of the beholder.
Yes, people are going to complain. Some of the complaints have weight and some don't. But it's a human right.
Stop going to a big ag market that marks up prices. Big ag and big pharma and health insurance companies must go
?
~ Fuck The Crony-Capitalist Plutarchy Farm Industry ~
"Bill Mollison: People question me coming through the American frontier these days. They ask, 'What's your occupation?' I say, 'I'm just a simple gardener.' And that is deeply seditious. If you're a simple person today, and want to live simply, that is awfully seditious. And to advise people to live simply is more seditious still.
You see, the worst thing about permaculture is that it's extremely successful, but it has no center, and no hierarchy.
Alan Atkisson (interviewer): So that's worst from whose perspective?
Bill: Anybody that wants to extinguish it. It's something with a million heads. It's a way of thinking which is already loose, and you can't put a way of thinking back in the box.
Alan: Is it an anarchist movement?
Bill: ...You won't get cooperation out of a hierarchical system. You get enforced directions from the top, and nothing I know of can run like that. I think the world would function extremely well with millions of little cooperative groups, all in relation to each other."
Staff members? Your choice of words is telling, Carol. They are farm laborers. If they don't like low wages, there are plenty of other opportunities. And don't make excuses for them. That's a cop out. It's called personal responsibility - a character trait missing from the Leftists. I don't care how crunchy they are.
Only someone who has no connection to farming would say to a farm worker that she doesn't know what she is talking about. But enjoy your rage today.
Educated in Ag Economics. Sorry sweetie. Try harder.
But you don't work in the business. Your own terminology and defending cheap goods tell me that. At the farm, we discuss pricing and staffing every week.
Of course you do, because markets are competitive. When you can't compete, you're out. Truth is, most don't want a true free market, because they know they can't compete. Winners love competition - thrive on it - they compete and win, losers whine and go home.
You sound a poultry farmer. Want to sell eggs @ $5, guaranteed? Go into the commodities markets and do it. That's what they are there for, a hedge to mitigate risk, lock in operating profits and stabilize markets - not a casino, as many think.
again, if you were really in ag, you wouldn't make simplistic assumption about the farm operation I work with. And you would have a glimmer of the finer points of the farm markets. Go buy some cheap eggs and Peruvian grapes.
You don't understand economics, i.e., supply vs. demand.
SSS....with you being from Louisana, that's really bizarrely amusing.
Let me see if I understand your logic:
In the State of Louisiana slavery was once legal.
Dreamy lives in Louisiana.
Therefore, Dreamy is pro-slavery.
Got it.
Footnote: The State of Louisiana, by it's State Constitution, outlawed slavery in 1864. My guess is that's a few years before she was born, so she's never really resided in a state where slavery is legal.
ЁЯТЪЁЯТЫЁЯТЬ
It brings me joy that you are amused. Though, i haven't a clue who SSS is. But an fyi to bring further levity to the situation..you must have forgotten how many Yankees were slave owners.
Nova, or how many free Blacks owned slaves.
A ton! Especially in New Orleans.
Brilliant logic there, "Maria". Not surprising.