The most recent phase of the US war against Germany began with Obama's "cash for clunkers" and the bullshit attack on German turbo diesels. With turbo diesels getting 50+ miles per gallon, there was no reason to ever make an electric car. So, Obama's cronies took most used cars off the market and ginned up some bullshit lawsuit about tur…
The most recent phase of the US war against Germany began with Obama's "cash for clunkers" and the bullshit attack on German turbo diesels. With turbo diesels getting 50+ miles per gallon, there was no reason to ever make an electric car. So, Obama's cronies took most used cars off the market and ginned up some bullshit lawsuit about turbo diesel emissions thereby shutting the whole turbo diesel project down. This created a fake market for electric cars that nobody really wanted anyway.
I didn't know that rd3, but it makes sense. I remember the VW boss explaining to Congress that "according to your own government studies", greenhouse gases come from U.S. industrial sources far more than from cars and when you look at the small amount of diesel vehicles on the road and the much smaller amount that are Volkswagons, the actual environmental damage is basically non-existent....that guy was threatened with prison after he said that.
The brown cloud is particulate from diesels. Particulate is dangerous to us in different ways than CO2. Work has been done to try to limit particulate production from diesels but the brown clouds around the country still form. In Phoenix, I can see the smog forming along the highways exclusively, mostly from semis. Particulate is ash from incomplete combustion of diesel fuel. It is actually less dangerous because it eventually falls to earth. The result of complete combustion is CO2 plus H2O. So all the effort to control pollution over the decades pushed us towards complete combustion, to eliminate the visible particulate. Then someone came up with climate change and CO2.
Hmmm, damned if you do and damned if you don’t.
BTW, not only does the particulate from cars invade our systems through our alveoli, but now we have micro-plastic residue joining in.
Your comment is borderline obscene. My alveoli is washed, clean, and of prodigious proportion. I am known far and wide for the size of my alveoli...and I have pics to prove it! People, perhaps such as yourself, with small alveoli, discount the admiration of others for size, and that is a mistake. Pics on request....gaze upon my alveoli and despair!
VW actually undersold the mileage. I think the sticker said 44mpg highway and when I drove like a normal person, I got 52 or 53 mpg. When I drove like a red-blooded American, I still got 47 mpg. They were capable of much more.
Something to consider with diesel, the oil produced by fracking in the USA, Drill-Baby-Drill, is so light that diesel cannot be produced by it. Most sources of heavier grade oil for diesel refinement come from overseas, most notably Venezuela. A definite issue with today’s geo-politics.
Cargo carrier ships use "bunker diesel", that is, used motor oil.
15 supercargo carriers using bunker oil put out more smog than do all automobiles on earth combined.
There are 55 THOUSAND cargo carriers in operation.
Yet the "economics" say it is "cheaper" to ship food grown in America to processors overseas, then ship it back (often adulterated), or to ship overseas products rather than making/growing them locally due to regulation.
Or, to depend on interstate trucking rather than railroad hub systems between towns, as Kunstler and commenter Famine Hedge have advocated.
Or yet again, to invest not only in pipelines for liquids, but pipeline and compression storage for natgas, an immediate 40% reduction in pollution (and easily used for converting coal plants, as noticed here); again, the "economics" say valuable natgas is better burnt off at the stack rather than piped. Investing in simple pipe, for eff's sake, instead of these hypertoxic, overcomplicated Green schemes!
Hmmm maybe it’s just that stopping diesel and fuel cells was part of the green watermelon revolution. Given my experience back into the mid nineties with off grid solar electric, thermal and windmill power systems for off grid and the last five years of my unpacking the features of the global CommuFascist assault It was shocking to me how long it took for me to realize that renewable sourced electricity powering the grid wasn’t just a grift but actually meant to fail. It’s part of the degrowth capitalism plan for collapsing, civilization, creating chaos, reducing population, and securing that ultimate source of wealth: taxation
rd3, and they could make cars without planned obsolescence built in. I still remember talking with a man in the auto industry in 1973. He said that they are perfectly capable of building cars that last for 20 years, but they never will because then they'd saturate the market. Now my last car, a Honda Civic with manual transmission, made it to 20 years--just barely. But it was a great car and gave me almost no grief until quite late in its life. I suppose I should have moved on after about 16 years, what with repairs and such, but that extra four years still gave me time to save a nice down payment for my current car, even with expenses for the old one. Well, it worked for me. How about cars that last ten years in good condition if you bother with upkeep? How much could people save if they had reliable transportation they didn't have to swap out for new every three to five years? The increase in car insurance alone gave me sticker shock!
Toyotas will give you 20 years. Easily. I had a 1993 Toyota Pick up. Drove that thing until 2019 until it threw a rod and cancer was eating away the rear fenders. It wasn't worth repairing so I sadly sold it to an old guy who needed a run around. He fixed it and I still see it out on road in my town. Still running.
I also drove a 2000 Toyota Sienna mini van and sold it last year, 2024, to a young family who needed a family vehicle. Still ran fantastically when I sold it.
My daughter is driving a 2005 Toyota Corolla that I bought in 2008 and it runs like a charm.
I drive a 2007 Toyota Tacoma. Fantastic truck.
I do all the vehicle maintenance on my own. Keep the oil changed and don't drive like a lead footed maniac and a Toyota will easily give you 20 years.
I also have a 1968 Camaro but that one requires a little more TLC to keep running ;)
Great stories, Cankerpuss! Yes, Toyotas are long-lived, too, if you take care of them. I had a Toyota but it was totaled in an accident, alas. My sister drives trucks and loves them. She had a Chevy Stepside from 1992 to 2012, sold it to someone who continued to drive it. She now has a Silverado since 2012 and it's running like a champ.
When I bought my Camaro, after years of saving, the dealership had a 69 Charger on the lot. My Camaro was about $42,000.00. That Charger was listed at $110,000.00. Well out of my price range :)
I always thought the Pontiac's had subtle touches that made them look a little cooler. The front end looked better. The rear quarter panel swept in and narrowed a little more. That being said, I had a Camaro from that era. My father had a Chevelle Super Sport that my mother wrecked when I was a kid.
I grew up driving a 1970 Pontiac Tempest that I sold because I didn't have the money or the space to restore and store it. Kick myself to this day.
Still, that first gen Camaro and the coke bottle design always makes me swoon. The subtle curves, the big grill, the stance. Gorgeous car. Cars today? They all look the same to me. Cars from the 70s, 60s, 50s and before were pieces of art.
@rd3 opened up a can of worms--mostly good, with his comment.
Regarding cars, in terms of durability, the line between durable and junk was broad and blurry until the 1990s. That is because the major automakers had not acquired the requisite experience and skill to design and manufacture components and subsystems that were "just good enough" to last 120k to 160k miles (200k to 250k km). Therefore, believe it or not, they were generally "over-engineered" for their era, in the sense that, with regular maintenance, they could last indefinitely (provided they did not rust out).
Starting in the 1960s/70s, as cars improved, automakers dialed back the routine service and maintenance requirements.
The "peak auto" era was, loosely speaking, mid 1980s to mid 2010s. Cars did become more complex, and harder to service (though they needed less service, when they needed a repair, it was more expensive).
Starting in the 1990s and 2000s, the automakers started selling cars that were meant to last 120k to 200k miles (the actual targets are closely guarded secrets) with minimal service. When a system fails at that point, the economics of keeping the car on the road are not attractive, and often the car is sent to a salvage yard, to provide parts.
Improved technology and manufacturing have led to widespread adoption of features that are inherently inferior, but can now be manufactured to be "good enough". (There are reasons why the straight six was so popular until the 1960s, why V6s use did not become widespread till the 80s, and why there were NO 3-cylinder US cars until the 2020s. Your first guess is your best guess...). The CVT automatic (Continuously Variable Transmission) comes to mind. Or technologies that are more expensive and have drawbacks, but can give better mpg, and can be "short-cutted" to some extent to meet cost targets: turbochargers, 8,9,10 speed automatics, direct fuel injection.
The takeaway is this: the typical 1990-2010 Toyota will go farther with fewer problems than the typical 2025 Toyota. And that applies to pretty much all cars (I pick Toyota because they were, and are, generally considered to be the best-built vehicles).
But it's not as simple as running out and finding a used Toyota, because they are used and OLD.
We are beset by many problems. However, if I was dictator, one easy call would be to roll back US auto regulations to 2000 levels, eliminate CAFE, and raise motor fuel taxes $0.25 a quarter for the next two years, in the hope that this would make building cars like 1990-2010 4-cylinder Camrys, Civics, and Cruzes economically attractive to automakers. Less content, lower operating costs, longer life, less fuel consumption, fewer exhaust emissions, in a society where car is absolutely essential for 95% of the adult public.
I think when only some of the dust settles from the Reckoning we are fast approaching, we'll be looking forward to an actual "Golden Age". Pun intended, as gold and other actual physical assets I think, will be paramount in the aftermath of the fiat currency failure.
Sorry, but no. If you want streets that are nothing but rivers of horse poop and urine, OK. Otherwise give me a good old internal combustion vehicle, although I am fascinated by fuel cells.
I am enthusiastic about "drill baby drill." It's hard to imagine fuel cells becoming the thing any time soon. I recall Toyota saying in the mid 90's there would be a fuel cell RAV 4 in 2000. 25 years on they have a car finally but hydrogen is harder to find than a working Tesla charger in a Blue shithole. Also Trump's admonition that they're great but might explode. LOL!
John, I am a Toyota fan and I talked to my salesman about progress on the hydrogen car. Not much, and aside from a few zealots, not much interest. IMHO, plug in hybrids is where things are going to go. Biased, because I own a RAV4 Prime and spend an average of $20 per month on gas and about $30 on electricity to run it. The biggest problem is in availability.
Yes, why not have a nuclear engine in every car? With a special code to turn it into a bomb. The code is only given to consumers of high moral quality.
I am a Toyota fan as well. There is a fuel cell/hybrid now that looks a lot like an Avalon/Lexus 350. 30 years ago the fuel cells were going to use a thing called a reformer IIRC to allow gasoline, ethanol, etc. to be the fuel which would go through this reformer membrane and separate the electrons etc. The failure to go ahead was because this membrane could not be made reliable enough for long enough to be practical. The on vehicle storage issue with hydrogen was solved a while back but the other issues like generation, distribution and safety remain as hydrogen seems to be the only workable fuel. If those membranes worked and current fuels could be used instead of hydrogen I am pretty sure the fuel cell vehicles would be a big thing today.
Kinder Morgan sets up landfills to capture the methane and bottle it on site. I've seen landfills where they flare off the gas like in the Permian. There is so much natgas in the Permian they do not have enough pipeline capacity to send it all, hence it is flared. Diamondback is partnering with Verde Gas to make high grade gasoline from this excess natgas. Some are using it to generate electricity and converting from diesel engine powered sites to electric motor power. Still others are attempting to attract these electricity hog AI and data centers to site near the fields for the cheap electricity they can generate with the gas they had been flaring
Why, thanks again, John S., my local landfill/recycling center saves $10,000 per month on its power bill that way; they stuck a pipe in the bottom of the old landfill and run it to a generator shack. The owner, 4th generation, showed me when he was walking the yard.
I was on a back road in Midlands, TX; from where I was sitting, I counted 31 flareoff stacks. Each one was millions of pilot lights' worth of gas, all of it just going to waste. We really could be doing all of this so differently.
Diesel electric, todays standard for railroad, proves it.
My dad was a coal tender on the old trains, and yet there is still a place for them too, such as in Nepal and the Himalayas. The one-size-fits-all model of the Greens and the corporates is a bloody crime against nature.
Funny how almost no one is aware trains are electric and the huge diesel engines are the generators.
If anyone is interested in seeing the most amazing recycling/power generating operation I have seen, it is the Olmstead County operation in Rochester, Minnesota. They burn garbage at over 2,000 degrees and generate electricity and provide steam heat to a lot of government buildings. They extended the life of their landfill by 125 years which is significant in that area because it is mostly solid rock a short distance down which is unsuitable for a landfill. Unlike most places they can't just put them anywhere. If anyone is going to the Mayo Clinic and looking for something interesting to do while there, this is worth seeing.
Up and back to Vegas for $50, the first 50 miles is electric. It is wonderful not to have to charge up on trips.
I drive on the electric plug-in for about two months on about a quarter tank of gas, then run the gas out to freshen the tank. That fill-up is usually 30-40 dollars.
Oh yeah, A/C is expensive, we pay on a budget leveling plan at $246 per month. It would be about $400/month in summer without the balancing.
A natural autoclave, ha, that is about right. Summers, you get things done in early morning or at night. Playing golf in January makes up for it tho’.
The electric vehicle industry shut down fuel cell research. I saw many operative fuel cells at a conference I attended in 2001. Then, they all disappeared.
As JHK said long ago, trying to control hydrogen in a relatively dumb car public is a big problem. Boy, you think Pintos blew up when hit from behind? Imagine the Hindenburg every time an accident happens, or the reaction around a leaky “pump” when the local idiot lights up a cigar.
Schrauth is so right on about fuel cells, and they aren't limited to hydrogen. I just wanted to thank him for banging on about them as a wonderful alternative.
Remember that when we can't afford food anymore. Mass famine will stalk the land eventually and sooner than most think possible. At 40 C or 104 F enzymes necessary for photosynthesis start to break down. You do realize we live on an ever-warming planet, don't you? https://gml.noaa.gov/ccgg/trends/
We are now deep into The Long Emergency (Kunstler, 2005). Mr. Trump is the current driver of the fire truck racing through Clusterf*ck Nation with sirens blaring. Sorry, global warming is on the back burner (no pun intended) for the next 4 years. And is NOAA still around?
"At 40 C or 104 F enzymes necessary for photosynthesis start to break down."
I've lived amongst farmers in the boiling hot Southwest all my life. I've been an irrigator, and live next to an irrigation ditch, which I swim in on those boiling hot days amongst our thriving fields. And you're saying the lush, overgrown, verdant jungles of the steaming tropics are "photosynthesis breaking down?"
Shit is very important. The fields must be manured by the beasts of the field. Properly managed, they can stay fruitful for thousands of years as some Hindus and Chinese have done. Those that opted for huge yields via petrochemicals ruined their fields in short order.
First you need to change American attitudes about cars and independence. HOV lanes have become a gigantic failure as government thought they could change the minds of Americans and did not. I would like to see America use a few billion dollars and build MAGLEV trains right down the middle of the Interstate highways. AMTRAK disappears overnight. The biggest problem? Government cannot figure its way out of a wet paper bag. Light rail in bigger cities have pretty much failed as income producers and have become debt producers.
John, Light Rail is a gigantic income producer almost wherever it has been mandated. Please do a deep dive into the management class net worth before and after Light Rail was introduced and I think you will find their net worth increased significantly as did the net worth of all their crony friends who managed to get their fingers in the pie. Many Americans like to look down their nose at the govt officials in Mexico and Africa but if the truth were known the Mexicans are pikers when compared the the sheer number and amount of graft/corruption that goes on in America. Due to Doge spending just a few hours looking at USAID files we learned that American taxpayers were paying for most of the illegals to come to the US as well as the many rent-a-mobs that the Marxists used to show their friends in the media that conservative policies and people are horrible and have to be attacked daily in order to convince Joe lunchpail that the Marxists will keep the evil Rs from pushing grandma off the cliff and will keep the evil Rs from causing irrepeparable harm to our children (at least the ones that they cannot murder via PP).
Ron Neff, here's a light rail investment joke, since I can see California's Highway To Nowhere from near my house (and a best friend used to work on it):
The African and the Asian go to the UN/World Bank class on international development.
A few years later, the Asian calls his friend the African and invites him to visit. The Asian shows off his big, fine house and his brand new luxury cars.
"How did you do this?" the African asks.
Grinning, the Asian says, "see that multilane superhighway over there? 5%, right off the top!"
A few years after that, the African calls and invites the Asian to his house.
The Asian, gaping, can't believe the African's broad mansion and his fleet of limosines.
"How in the hundred hells did you do this?" the Asian demands.
"Look out de window...do you see that highway over there?" chortles the African.
"What highway?" says the mystified Asian.
"That's right!" laughs the African. "100%, right off the top!!"
I'd kinda hate to see it. I've got some 4 million miles on those interstates, and I want to see more. I keep having daily flashbacks; for a few seconds, I'll be somewhere I was once, out of thousands of places. 30 years of coast-to-coast, border-to-border.
Just climb in that big puppy and ride...ride with the wind.
Excellent point about diesel powered transportation. Diesels are far more fuel efficient while producing less co2. Current much-improved diesel technology isn’t widely implemented yet, but would have been if we hadn’t gotten sidetracked by the insane obsession with EVs, which will never become a reality. The solution in some people’s minds is to shoehorn the world’s population into so-called 15-minute cities.
I wish more folks understood this. Modern diesel engines are cleaner than gasoline engines. I live in California. I actually have to have a smog inspection on my 2006 ford 6.0 diesel engine with 20093 k on it. Uses zero oil. No Leaks. I cruise and 85 on the I-5. I can pull most any grade 65 MPH pulling my 32 foot 5th wheel and a flat trailer the 4 tons of hay. I just wish I got 50 mpg.
It's my understanding that diesel engines create a larger, heavier particulate that, rather than stay in the air, eventually settles to the ground. So, even though those big ugly Ram trucks belch out a lot of black soot, most of it doesn't stay in the air. I may be wrong.....
Bullshit. They played by the same rules as every other manufacturer. The puppet masters pulling Obama's strings decided that the US was going electric, so they had to destroy turbo diesels. Who the fuck would buy an electric car when you could buy a turbo diesel with a range of 800 miles and get 50+ mpg.
I owned one. My brother owned one. We both got over 50 mpg.
You're deep-throating Obama-era propaganda. We have to hate Germany and Russia. We have to commit war crimes against Germany and Russia. I wonder why it's Germany and Russia? Do you have any ideas?
Yes. That's what I said. They played by the same rules as everyone else. Most cars go into an emissions mode for emissions testing. Everyone else did it, but Obama's cronies sued VW, because they had to create an artificial market for electric cars that nobody wanted.
"Diesels are dirty as fuck even well-tuned ones."
No, they are not. This isn't grandpappy's Detroit Diesel. Turbo diesels with DEF are cleaner than a gas motor.
I'm talking about German turbo diesel technology with DEF. Not semi trucks or huge pickups with metal nuts swinging off the trailer hitch and an itty bitty guy driving who is the assistant to the assistant deputy fire captain on the local volunteer fire department, blasting tractor rap.
The most recent phase of the US war against Germany began with Obama's "cash for clunkers" and the bullshit attack on German turbo diesels. With turbo diesels getting 50+ miles per gallon, there was no reason to ever make an electric car. So, Obama's cronies took most used cars off the market and ginned up some bullshit lawsuit about turbo diesel emissions thereby shutting the whole turbo diesel project down. This created a fake market for electric cars that nobody really wanted anyway.
I didn't know that rd3, but it makes sense. I remember the VW boss explaining to Congress that "according to your own government studies", greenhouse gases come from U.S. industrial sources far more than from cars and when you look at the small amount of diesel vehicles on the road and the much smaller amount that are Volkswagons, the actual environmental damage is basically non-existent....that guy was threatened with prison after he said that.
The turbo diesels took DEF and were cleaner than a gas motor. I drove 100 mph on the highway and still got 47 mpg.
The brown cloud is particulate from diesels. Particulate is dangerous to us in different ways than CO2. Work has been done to try to limit particulate production from diesels but the brown clouds around the country still form. In Phoenix, I can see the smog forming along the highways exclusively, mostly from semis. Particulate is ash from incomplete combustion of diesel fuel. It is actually less dangerous because it eventually falls to earth. The result of complete combustion is CO2 plus H2O. So all the effort to control pollution over the decades pushed us towards complete combustion, to eliminate the visible particulate. Then someone came up with climate change and CO2.
Hmmm, damned if you do and damned if you don’t.
BTW, not only does the particulate from cars invade our systems through our alveoli, but now we have micro-plastic residue joining in.
Semi trucks. Not turbo diesels with DEF.
"through our alveoli"
John,
Your comment is borderline obscene. My alveoli is washed, clean, and of prodigious proportion. I am known far and wide for the size of my alveoli...and I have pics to prove it! People, perhaps such as yourself, with small alveoli, discount the admiration of others for size, and that is a mistake. Pics on request....gaze upon my alveoli and despair!
Well, just remember to keep your alveoli in a safe place.
HA!
Wow! Our school bus driver showed us his little notebook where he recorded mileage/fill-ups/MPGs .... 50 mpg on a VW diesel rabbit in 1979.
VW actually undersold the mileage. I think the sticker said 44mpg highway and when I drove like a normal person, I got 52 or 53 mpg. When I drove like a red-blooded American, I still got 47 mpg. They were capable of much more.
Something to consider with diesel, the oil produced by fracking in the USA, Drill-Baby-Drill, is so light that diesel cannot be produced by it. Most sources of heavier grade oil for diesel refinement come from overseas, most notably Venezuela. A definite issue with today’s geo-politics.
Cargo carrier ships use "bunker diesel", that is, used motor oil.
15 supercargo carriers using bunker oil put out more smog than do all automobiles on earth combined.
There are 55 THOUSAND cargo carriers in operation.
Yet the "economics" say it is "cheaper" to ship food grown in America to processors overseas, then ship it back (often adulterated), or to ship overseas products rather than making/growing them locally due to regulation.
Or, to depend on interstate trucking rather than railroad hub systems between towns, as Kunstler and commenter Famine Hedge have advocated.
Or yet again, to invest not only in pipelines for liquids, but pipeline and compression storage for natgas, an immediate 40% reduction in pollution (and easily used for converting coal plants, as noticed here); again, the "economics" say valuable natgas is better burnt off at the stack rather than piped. Investing in simple pipe, for eff's sake, instead of these hypertoxic, overcomplicated Green schemes!
Good post. I think that the AGW folks get involved in all of this.
Hmmm maybe it’s just that stopping diesel and fuel cells was part of the green watermelon revolution. Given my experience back into the mid nineties with off grid solar electric, thermal and windmill power systems for off grid and the last five years of my unpacking the features of the global CommuFascist assault It was shocking to me how long it took for me to realize that renewable sourced electricity powering the grid wasn’t just a grift but actually meant to fail. It’s part of the degrowth capitalism plan for collapsing, civilization, creating chaos, reducing population, and securing that ultimate source of wealth: taxation
rd3, and they could make cars without planned obsolescence built in. I still remember talking with a man in the auto industry in 1973. He said that they are perfectly capable of building cars that last for 20 years, but they never will because then they'd saturate the market. Now my last car, a Honda Civic with manual transmission, made it to 20 years--just barely. But it was a great car and gave me almost no grief until quite late in its life. I suppose I should have moved on after about 16 years, what with repairs and such, but that extra four years still gave me time to save a nice down payment for my current car, even with expenses for the old one. Well, it worked for me. How about cars that last ten years in good condition if you bother with upkeep? How much could people save if they had reliable transportation they didn't have to swap out for new every three to five years? The increase in car insurance alone gave me sticker shock!
Toyotas will give you 20 years. Easily. I had a 1993 Toyota Pick up. Drove that thing until 2019 until it threw a rod and cancer was eating away the rear fenders. It wasn't worth repairing so I sadly sold it to an old guy who needed a run around. He fixed it and I still see it out on road in my town. Still running.
I also drove a 2000 Toyota Sienna mini van and sold it last year, 2024, to a young family who needed a family vehicle. Still ran fantastically when I sold it.
My daughter is driving a 2005 Toyota Corolla that I bought in 2008 and it runs like a charm.
I drive a 2007 Toyota Tacoma. Fantastic truck.
I do all the vehicle maintenance on my own. Keep the oil changed and don't drive like a lead footed maniac and a Toyota will easily give you 20 years.
I also have a 1968 Camaro but that one requires a little more TLC to keep running ;)
Great stories, Cankerpuss! Yes, Toyotas are long-lived, too, if you take care of them. I had a Toyota but it was totaled in an accident, alas. My sister drives trucks and loves them. She had a Chevy Stepside from 1992 to 2012, sold it to someone who continued to drive it. She now has a Silverado since 2012 and it's running like a champ.
Chevy makes a good truck to be sure. They also made the sexiest muscle car that ever existed. The Camaro!!!!
I'll see your Camero, and raise you a Mach 1 Cobra Mustang : )
Very nice!!!
The MOPAR cars had the best look, but the engines didn't run right unless you lived in a really dry place.
Nothing wrong with a classic Charger, Cuda or Challenger! They always grab my attention when I see one.
My buddy's dad used to own this car:
https://www.admcars.com/galleria_images/342/342_main_l.jpg
I bet that car is worth $150,000.00 today. Very nice!
We weren't allowed anywhere near it. Haha.
No doubt!
When I bought my Camaro, after years of saving, the dealership had a 69 Charger on the lot. My Camaro was about $42,000.00. That Charger was listed at $110,000.00. Well out of my price range :)
I was always partial to the first generation Firebirds.
Almost identical to a first gen Camaro. Different grill, different tail lights, and some vents over the rear fender but a bad ass car none the less!
I always thought the Pontiac's had subtle touches that made them look a little cooler. The front end looked better. The rear quarter panel swept in and narrowed a little more. That being said, I had a Camaro from that era. My father had a Chevelle Super Sport that my mother wrecked when I was a kid.
I grew up driving a 1970 Pontiac Tempest that I sold because I didn't have the money or the space to restore and store it. Kick myself to this day.
Still, that first gen Camaro and the coke bottle design always makes me swoon. The subtle curves, the big grill, the stance. Gorgeous car. Cars today? They all look the same to me. Cars from the 70s, 60s, 50s and before were pieces of art.
Yeah man, the racks on those babes. Who needed girls with grills like that?
Especially now that Pontiac has gone the way of the Dodo bird!
I believe 67 to 69 Firebirds are more rare than a Camaro and thus harder to find and more valuable. So when I see one, I take notice.
The orange and black color scheme just looked mean.
@rd3 opened up a can of worms--mostly good, with his comment.
Regarding cars, in terms of durability, the line between durable and junk was broad and blurry until the 1990s. That is because the major automakers had not acquired the requisite experience and skill to design and manufacture components and subsystems that were "just good enough" to last 120k to 160k miles (200k to 250k km). Therefore, believe it or not, they were generally "over-engineered" for their era, in the sense that, with regular maintenance, they could last indefinitely (provided they did not rust out).
Starting in the 1960s/70s, as cars improved, automakers dialed back the routine service and maintenance requirements.
The "peak auto" era was, loosely speaking, mid 1980s to mid 2010s. Cars did become more complex, and harder to service (though they needed less service, when they needed a repair, it was more expensive).
Starting in the 1990s and 2000s, the automakers started selling cars that were meant to last 120k to 200k miles (the actual targets are closely guarded secrets) with minimal service. When a system fails at that point, the economics of keeping the car on the road are not attractive, and often the car is sent to a salvage yard, to provide parts.
Improved technology and manufacturing have led to widespread adoption of features that are inherently inferior, but can now be manufactured to be "good enough". (There are reasons why the straight six was so popular until the 1960s, why V6s use did not become widespread till the 80s, and why there were NO 3-cylinder US cars until the 2020s. Your first guess is your best guess...). The CVT automatic (Continuously Variable Transmission) comes to mind. Or technologies that are more expensive and have drawbacks, but can give better mpg, and can be "short-cutted" to some extent to meet cost targets: turbochargers, 8,9,10 speed automatics, direct fuel injection.
The takeaway is this: the typical 1990-2010 Toyota will go farther with fewer problems than the typical 2025 Toyota. And that applies to pretty much all cars (I pick Toyota because they were, and are, generally considered to be the best-built vehicles).
But it's not as simple as running out and finding a used Toyota, because they are used and OLD.
We are beset by many problems. However, if I was dictator, one easy call would be to roll back US auto regulations to 2000 levels, eliminate CAFE, and raise motor fuel taxes $0.25 a quarter for the next two years, in the hope that this would make building cars like 1990-2010 4-cylinder Camrys, Civics, and Cruzes economically attractive to automakers. Less content, lower operating costs, longer life, less fuel consumption, fewer exhaust emissions, in a society where car is absolutely essential for 95% of the adult public.
Wish a Ford and a Chevy would still last ten years like they should
Is the best of the free life behind us now? Are the good times really over for good?
No. They aren't.
That was Merle's conclusion, too.
I think when only some of the dust settles from the Reckoning we are fast approaching, we'll be looking forward to an actual "Golden Age". Pun intended, as gold and other actual physical assets I think, will be paramount in the aftermath of the fiat currency failure.
rd3, better days are yet to come. We just have to work through the problems we are facing.
We just have to make it through December…. RIP Merle
Almost time to resurrect the horse and buggy. EROEI will rule in the end.
Sorry, but no. If you want streets that are nothing but rivers of horse poop and urine, OK. Otherwise give me a good old internal combustion vehicle, although I am fascinated by fuel cells.
Democrats could be the street cleaners.
Yes, Kathy! Excellent idea, they can start in San Francisco. Pelosi and Newsom can start a trade school there.
Or, they could quite literally "be" the street. Cinders and such.
They don't seem to mind gluing themselves to pavement, so...
I dunno if fuel cells will save humankind, John. In the meantime, drill baby, drill!
I am enthusiastic about "drill baby drill." It's hard to imagine fuel cells becoming the thing any time soon. I recall Toyota saying in the mid 90's there would be a fuel cell RAV 4 in 2000. 25 years on they have a car finally but hydrogen is harder to find than a working Tesla charger in a Blue shithole. Also Trump's admonition that they're great but might explode. LOL!
John, I am a Toyota fan and I talked to my salesman about progress on the hydrogen car. Not much, and aside from a few zealots, not much interest. IMHO, plug in hybrids is where things are going to go. Biased, because I own a RAV4 Prime and spend an average of $20 per month on gas and about $30 on electricity to run it. The biggest problem is in availability.
Actually we will be fueling our cars with water one day. Hydrogen derived from water. No reason it won’t be accomplished.
100% recycling cycle with hydrogen.
Heavy water!
Yes, why not have a nuclear engine in every car? With a special code to turn it into a bomb. The code is only given to consumers of high moral quality.
I am a Toyota fan as well. There is a fuel cell/hybrid now that looks a lot like an Avalon/Lexus 350. 30 years ago the fuel cells were going to use a thing called a reformer IIRC to allow gasoline, ethanol, etc. to be the fuel which would go through this reformer membrane and separate the electrons etc. The failure to go ahead was because this membrane could not be made reliable enough for long enough to be practical. The on vehicle storage issue with hydrogen was solved a while back but the other issues like generation, distribution and safety remain as hydrogen seems to be the only workable fuel. If those membranes worked and current fuels could be used instead of hydrogen I am pretty sure the fuel cell vehicles would be a big thing today.
What about methane? It's used in fuel cells too, isn't it?
Then we could blow up the undersea clathrates and the tundra, lol
or invest in garbage dumps and manure piles /s
Kinder Morgan sets up landfills to capture the methane and bottle it on site. I've seen landfills where they flare off the gas like in the Permian. There is so much natgas in the Permian they do not have enough pipeline capacity to send it all, hence it is flared. Diamondback is partnering with Verde Gas to make high grade gasoline from this excess natgas. Some are using it to generate electricity and converting from diesel engine powered sites to electric motor power. Still others are attempting to attract these electricity hog AI and data centers to site near the fields for the cheap electricity they can generate with the gas they had been flaring
Why, thanks again, John S., my local landfill/recycling center saves $10,000 per month on its power bill that way; they stuck a pipe in the bottom of the old landfill and run it to a generator shack. The owner, 4th generation, showed me when he was walking the yard.
I was on a back road in Midlands, TX; from where I was sitting, I counted 31 flareoff stacks. Each one was millions of pilot lights' worth of gas, all of it just going to waste. We really could be doing all of this so differently.
Diesel electric, todays standard for railroad, proves it.
My dad was a coal tender on the old trains, and yet there is still a place for them too, such as in Nepal and the Himalayas. The one-size-fits-all model of the Greens and the corporates is a bloody crime against nature.
Funny how almost no one is aware trains are electric and the huge diesel engines are the generators.
If anyone is interested in seeing the most amazing recycling/power generating operation I have seen, it is the Olmstead County operation in Rochester, Minnesota. They burn garbage at over 2,000 degrees and generate electricity and provide steam heat to a lot of government buildings. They extended the life of their landfill by 125 years which is significant in that area because it is mostly solid rock a short distance down which is unsuitable for a landfill. Unlike most places they can't just put them anywhere. If anyone is going to the Mayo Clinic and looking for something interesting to do while there, this is worth seeing.
I drive about 13000 miles a year.
Why?
Errands in wide open Phoenix and an occasional trip to Cali or Las Vegas.
for $20/30?!!
Phoenix traffic is bad enough, but there's the proof in the pudding right there.
Uhh...what about A/C? You live in a natural autoclave.
Up and back to Vegas for $50, the first 50 miles is electric. It is wonderful not to have to charge up on trips.
I drive on the electric plug-in for about two months on about a quarter tank of gas, then run the gas out to freshen the tank. That fill-up is usually 30-40 dollars.
Oh yeah, A/C is expensive, we pay on a budget leveling plan at $246 per month. It would be about $400/month in summer without the balancing.
A natural autoclave, ha, that is about right. Summers, you get things done in early morning or at night. Playing golf in January makes up for it tho’.
The electric vehicle industry shut down fuel cell research. I saw many operative fuel cells at a conference I attended in 2001. Then, they all disappeared.
As JHK said long ago, trying to control hydrogen in a relatively dumb car public is a big problem. Boy, you think Pintos blew up when hit from behind? Imagine the Hindenburg every time an accident happens, or the reaction around a leaky “pump” when the local idiot lights up a cigar.
Gas isn't flammable, right?
Sure it is, but not near as volatile as hydrogen, plus the small size of the hydrogen molecule makes leaks more of a problem.
Fumes
There are multiple ways to store it safely.
Yeah, until the first one blows sky high.
Schrauth is so right on about fuel cells, and they aren't limited to hydrogen. I just wanted to thank him for banging on about them as a wonderful alternative.
Remember that when we can't afford food anymore. Mass famine will stalk the land eventually and sooner than most think possible. At 40 C or 104 F enzymes necessary for photosynthesis start to break down. You do realize we live on an ever-warming planet, don't you? https://gml.noaa.gov/ccgg/trends/
We are now deep into The Long Emergency (Kunstler, 2005). Mr. Trump is the current driver of the fire truck racing through Clusterf*ck Nation with sirens blaring. Sorry, global warming is on the back burner (no pun intended) for the next 4 years. And is NOAA still around?
"At 40 C or 104 F enzymes necessary for photosynthesis start to break down."
I've lived amongst farmers in the boiling hot Southwest all my life. I've been an irrigator, and live next to an irrigation ditch, which I swim in on those boiling hot days amongst our thriving fields. And you're saying the lush, overgrown, verdant jungles of the steaming tropics are "photosynthesis breaking down?"
Shit is very important. The fields must be manured by the beasts of the field. Properly managed, they can stay fruitful for thousands of years as some Hindus and Chinese have done. Those that opted for huge yields via petrochemicals ruined their fields in short order.
How many bushels are you currently getting per city block? I've also heard cement is very hard on plows.
The Earth abides, friend. Every "weed" pushing through cracked cement is a testimony to the goodness of God.
The soil needs that manure to keep the microbiome healthy!
They already are. Sorry dog owners but I don’t stand anywhere near a trash can during the summer.
Horses fart to much methane don't cha know!
Often have wondered if the Amish got it right by stopping at the car
I saw "horsebuggy whips" at a carriage maker's in Conneticut servicing the Amish community, so they didn't get 'em all!
It's way past time to embark on my interstate highway removal project.
First you need to change American attitudes about cars and independence. HOV lanes have become a gigantic failure as government thought they could change the minds of Americans and did not. I would like to see America use a few billion dollars and build MAGLEV trains right down the middle of the Interstate highways. AMTRAK disappears overnight. The biggest problem? Government cannot figure its way out of a wet paper bag. Light rail in bigger cities have pretty much failed as income producers and have become debt producers.
John, Light Rail is a gigantic income producer almost wherever it has been mandated. Please do a deep dive into the management class net worth before and after Light Rail was introduced and I think you will find their net worth increased significantly as did the net worth of all their crony friends who managed to get their fingers in the pie. Many Americans like to look down their nose at the govt officials in Mexico and Africa but if the truth were known the Mexicans are pikers when compared the the sheer number and amount of graft/corruption that goes on in America. Due to Doge spending just a few hours looking at USAID files we learned that American taxpayers were paying for most of the illegals to come to the US as well as the many rent-a-mobs that the Marxists used to show their friends in the media that conservative policies and people are horrible and have to be attacked daily in order to convince Joe lunchpail that the Marxists will keep the evil Rs from pushing grandma off the cliff and will keep the evil Rs from causing irrepeparable harm to our children (at least the ones that they cannot murder via PP).
Ron Neff, here's a light rail investment joke, since I can see California's Highway To Nowhere from near my house (and a best friend used to work on it):
The African and the Asian go to the UN/World Bank class on international development.
A few years later, the Asian calls his friend the African and invites him to visit. The Asian shows off his big, fine house and his brand new luxury cars.
"How did you do this?" the African asks.
Grinning, the Asian says, "see that multilane superhighway over there? 5%, right off the top!"
A few years after that, the African calls and invites the Asian to his house.
The Asian, gaping, can't believe the African's broad mansion and his fleet of limosines.
"How in the hundred hells did you do this?" the Asian demands.
"Look out de window...do you see that highway over there?" chortles the African.
"What highway?" says the mystified Asian.
"That's right!" laughs the African. "100%, right off the top!!"
I'd kinda hate to see it. I've got some 4 million miles on those interstates, and I want to see more. I keep having daily flashbacks; for a few seconds, I'll be somewhere I was once, out of thousands of places. 30 years of coast-to-coast, border-to-border.
Just climb in that big puppy and ride...ride with the wind.
We need to move up;
https://robbreport.com/motors/aviation/opener-blackfly-electric-aircraft-1234628552/
I’m waiting on one with twelve rotors.
Excellent point about diesel powered transportation. Diesels are far more fuel efficient while producing less co2. Current much-improved diesel technology isn’t widely implemented yet, but would have been if we hadn’t gotten sidetracked by the insane obsession with EVs, which will never become a reality. The solution in some people’s minds is to shoehorn the world’s population into so-called 15-minute cities.
I wish more folks understood this. Modern diesel engines are cleaner than gasoline engines. I live in California. I actually have to have a smog inspection on my 2006 ford 6.0 diesel engine with 20093 k on it. Uses zero oil. No Leaks. I cruise and 85 on the I-5. I can pull most any grade 65 MPH pulling my 32 foot 5th wheel and a flat trailer the 4 tons of hay. I just wish I got 50 mpg.
Yes. The maroons arguing about it are just plain wrong.
It's my understanding that diesel engines create a larger, heavier particulate that, rather than stay in the air, eventually settles to the ground. So, even though those big ugly Ram trucks belch out a lot of black soot, most of it doesn't stay in the air. I may be wrong.....
@rds3
Volkswagen lied about actual mileage.
With respect all car manufactures do to some degree but VW really lied no where near 50 mpg.
Had surfing buddy who was paid all his money back by VW over this but the catch he had to turn in the five year old car.
He liked the car but took the money back.
This guy has all the luck it has happened to him twice now.
Bullshit. They played by the same rules as every other manufacturer. The puppet masters pulling Obama's strings decided that the US was going electric, so they had to destroy turbo diesels. Who the fuck would buy an electric car when you could buy a turbo diesel with a range of 800 miles and get 50+ mpg.
I owned one. My brother owned one. We both got over 50 mpg.
And in order to achieve that they broke emissions standards by huge margins.
When they tuned them down to make the required emissions standards mileage went WAY down.
I forgot the part about emissions standards.
I still believe Diesel hybrids are the way to go by the way.
You're deep-throating Obama-era propaganda. We have to hate Germany and Russia. We have to commit war crimes against Germany and Russia. I wonder why it's Germany and Russia? Do you have any ideas?
Prove me wrong and deep throating hahaha.
It wasn't just VW by the way.
Diesels are dirty as fuck even well-tuned ones.
With all that said I would love to have one, but they are simply too expensive at this point.
One of them diesel brothers souped up 4x4!
https://sparksmotorsofficial.com/pages/goliathbuildsheet
"It wasn't just VW by the way."
Yes. That's what I said. They played by the same rules as everyone else. Most cars go into an emissions mode for emissions testing. Everyone else did it, but Obama's cronies sued VW, because they had to create an artificial market for electric cars that nobody wanted.
"Diesels are dirty as fuck even well-tuned ones."
No, they are not. This isn't grandpappy's Detroit Diesel. Turbo diesels with DEF are cleaner than a gas motor.
Yeah, I was born but not yesterday.
As if a shot of blue pig piss is going to clean up all that particulate.
You're just wrong. Look into it.
I have I was actively looking at buying a diesel truck for several years.
I'm not wrong they are still dirty even with DEF.
All you need to do is go put your face in front of an exhaust pipe from each or be behind any diesel vehicle and the difference is huge.
Senses don't lie.
I'm talking about German turbo diesel technology with DEF. Not semi trucks or huge pickups with metal nuts swinging off the trailer hitch and an itty bitty guy driving who is the assistant to the assistant deputy fire captain on the local volunteer fire department, blasting tractor rap.
You have no idea what you're talking about.