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Punked World

     Europe is a three-card monte game and Greece is the pea and for the moment I’d guess that the pea is under a walnut shell called France. Or the French banks, to be specific. Their vaults are stuffed with Greek bond paper that is giving the whole neighborhood a headache from a stench like unto rotting carp. Everybody else in the neighborhood has their own cache of deliquescing fish-heads, but they pretend the air is fresh and bracing. In fact, so exhilarating that they are avid to dump $3 trillion into a Euro bailout fund that will solve the problem of that fugitive aroma wafting down the boulevards.
     Europe can really only put out stories at this point, and the $3 Tril bailout fund is just another story in a tedious string of them. Where are they going to get the money? From the machinists’ union in Dusseldorf? The waiters and chambermaids in Munich? There’s that rumored swap line opening from the Federal Reserve to the European Central Bank, but that’s nothing more than a cheap loan window, and for a measly half a trillion ($500 billion – the late Senator Ev Dirkson is cackling in his grave). And where do those dollars come from anyway? Who is supposed to pay it back, and how? What kind of collateral is Ben Bernanke going to hold – the contents of the south wing of the Louvre? One hundred million free dinners (wine and tip included) at Taillevent? This game of musical chairs with a hot potato is not fooling anyone, really.
     All it’s doing is dragging out the process of the civilized world getting right with reality. Reality has a ledger and is calling in its notes. The civilized world can’t believe this is happening, so they pretend it isn’t, with pompous ceremonials among the highest level banking officials, and hollow declarations of heroic actions that are not the least heroic because all they are designed to do is protect their fellow bankers. It’s certainly not for the sake of the nations involved, because the standard of living in all these countries will take a painful hit any way you cut it.
     This mummery could dissolve in tears any moment, or it might stretch out one more month, but by going this route the leaders of Europe risk all kinds of pressures in the other seams of the system, namely markets. They are testing a 60-odd years long supply of the one indispensible resource: confidence. They’ve already probably squandered the little that’s left. All signs point to a mega-Lehman moment when trust has fled and nobody will lend to anybody and business cannot continue. That’ll be a freaky-deaky moment and it will be way worse than Lehman was. When it happens, what seemed financial will instantly go political. The rage of millions will shred the trappings of fakery, and for a while things will seem too real. The world has no idea how all this might resolve. What a show.
     I can’t imagine that the explosion in Europe will not affect the American banks – we’ve already shoveled hundreds of billions into the Euro bank vaults the past several years, apart from that new swap line. Anyway, Washington has ramped up a new game of charades to divert everyone at this end – another threatened government shut-down. If we don’t cut this shit out, some Pentagon general is going to have to ride across the Potomac and call a time-out on the constitution. Financial chaos is not cool. Just so you know the sort of fate we are tempting with our shenanigans.
     Speaking of the constitution, I’m getting a little sick of these corporate CEO knuckleheads who come on CNBC and complain that the US Postal Service is running at a loss, and therefore we should abolish it. There is actually little beyond all those post offices that holds the fabric of small town America together anymore. And anyway, delivering the mail is one of the few actual government services that is spelled out in the US constitution in no uncertain terms in Article One, Section 8. It doesn’t say the postal service must run at a profit, by the way. The food stamp program is not spelled out in the constitution and it doesn’t run at a profit. Neither does the war in Afghanistan (if you don’t count the drug money). Congress runs at a profit, but not in any way that the constitution provides for. Before long, a lot of people are going to want to abolish it.
     In the meantime, can anybody answer this question: where is the Tea Party of Progressives? Why are the Nascar morons and Jesus jokers the only people in this country who can mount an aggressive political movement? Will somebody please step up and take the baton?

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About James Howard Kunstler

View all posts by James Howard Kunstler
James Howard Kunstler is the author of many books including (non-fiction) The Geography of Nowhere, The City in Mind: Notes on the Urban Condition, Home from Nowhere, The Long Emergency and the four-book series of World Made By Hand novels, set in a post economic crash American future. His most recent book is Living in the Long Emergency; Global Crisis, the Failure of the Futurists, and the Early Adapters Who Are Showing Us the Way Forward. Jim lives on a homestead in Washington County, New. York, where he tends his garden and communes with his chickens.

585 Responses to “Punked World” Subscribe

  1. kulturcritic* September 26, 2011 at 9:25 am #

    James – It seems that the constant noise from our crumbling civilization keeps us from hearing voices that are more truly aligned with our ongoing needs as human animals, and the sustainability of life on this planet. Perhaps we need to find a way to stop all the noise. Enjoy
    http://kulturcritic.wordpress.com/posts/conversations-on-a-country-path/

  2. Leibowitz Society September 26, 2011 at 9:28 am #

    Europe, like America, is crumbling, and all that has been built up will be lost in the chaos if we don’t take steps to preserve it for future generations.
    Visit the Leibowitz Society at http://leibowitzsociety.blogspot.com/2011/09/balkanization.html for commentary on saving our knowledge for the future, as well as observations on our coming Dark Age.

  3. Jack Waddington September 26, 2011 at 9:31 am #

    I know you don’t see it J H K, but however we arrange the deck chairs — World made by hand, etc. — the Titanic is sinking. We mere serfs will never beat the speculators and bankers, for they own the super computers that decide in nanoseconds to buy on low and sell on high. There is no way to put the genie back in the bottle; they’ve got it all sown up.
    James, you assume we need a means of exchange, but exchange is not intrinsic to our true nature. We come into this world; taking and we leave it; giving. Meantime we sometimes give and we sometime take, and the two are separate issues. Money and it’s hand-maiden economics, hence law and consequently government, is the quagmire we set–up for ourselves … eons ago. We don’t need any of it, though few historically grasped the concept–Proudhon, Marx, Bakunin, Kropotkin et al.
    Maybe the Arab spring will evolve into the eradication of all three … if we let it, but for the most part we are afraid. “There is nothing to fear, cept fear itself”. Once we are in this nether-land, we’ll see the absurdity of privilege, race and culture and know we are all in it together. We are merely one species, on one planet.
    “Imagine no heaven and no hell” and no money, and how that will eradicate 90% of our current problems. We will adjust … we will have no options … cept extinction.
    Jack

  4. John T Anderson September 26, 2011 at 9:33 am #

    Jim: I thought that now we all need to read (or re-read) Rudyard Kipling’s 1919 poem, “The Gods of the Copybook Headings,” which has relevance to the whole world now:
    As I pass through my incarnations in every age and race,
    I make my proper prostrations to the Gods of the Market Place.
    Peering through reverent fingers I watch them flourish and fall,
    And the Gods of the Copybook Headings, I notice, outlast them all.
    We were living in trees when they met us. They showed us each in turn
    That Water would certainly wet us, as Fire would certainly burn:
    But we found them lacking in Uplift, Vision and Breadth of Mind,
    So we left them to teach the Gorillas while we followed the March of Mankind.
    We moved as the Spirit listed. They never altered their pace,
    Being neither cloud nor wind-borne like the Gods of the Market Place,
    But they always caught up with our progress, and presently word would come
    That a tribe had been wiped off its icefield, or the lights had gone out in Rome.
    With the Hopes that our World is built on they were utterly out of touch,
    They denied that the Moon was Stilton; they denied she was even Dutch;
    They denied that Wishes were Horses; they denied that a Pig had Wings;
    So we worshipped the Gods of the Market Who promised these beautiful things.
    When the Cambrian measures were forming, They promised perpetual peace.
    They swore, if we gave them our weapons, that the wars of the tribes would cease.
    But when we disarmed They sold us and delivered us bound to our foe,
    And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: “Stick to the Devil you know.”
    On the first Feminian Sandstones we were promised the Fuller Life
    (Which started by loving our neighbour and ended by loving his wife)
    Till our women had no more children and the men lost reason and faith,
    And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: “The Wages of Sin is Death.”
    In the Carboniferous Epoch we were promised abundance for all,
    By robbing selected Peter to pay for collective Paul;
    But, though we had plenty of money, there was nothing our money could buy,
    And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: “If you don’t work you die.”
    Then the Gods of the Market tumbled, and their smooth-tongued wizards withdrew
    And the hearts of the meanest were humbled and began to believe it was true
    That All is not Gold that Glitters, and Two and Two make Four
    And the Gods of the Copybook Headings limped up to explain it once more.
    As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man
    There are only four things certain since Social Progress began.
    That the Dog returns to his Vomit and the Sow returns to her Mire,
    And the burnt Fool’s bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the Fire;
    And that after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
    When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
    As surely as Water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
    The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

  5. K September 26, 2011 at 9:33 am #

    Davindra’s Blessing: In the Blink of an Eye
    http://www.Thesisa.org/

  6. bubbleheadMarc September 26, 2011 at 9:33 am #

    Or, what did Ralph Nader do to the Green Party after using it to get Dubya the Jesus Joker in Chief appointed [not elected] to the presidency. And the fate of the developed world after the banking shenanigans play themselves out the rest of the way? How about Albania, circa 1968, when that country in the Balkans was the laughing stock of the eastern bloc?

  7. brianh September 26, 2011 at 9:35 am #

    And the one thing that we must do, but will not do, is have a serious discussion about what functions we will accept government to perform and at what level of taxation. Since we are borrowing over 50% of what we are spending, the first thing we must do is agree on what 50% we are going to cut out — and nobody will do anything other than recoil in horror at that number.

  8. doomster September 26, 2011 at 9:45 am #

    Great post… I agree with you about the Postal Service – at least it accomplishes something useful and reduces how much people have to drive their cars. The right-wing wants to destroy it, so they force thousands of post offices to close instead of removing Saturday delivery… These politicians talk about needing to cut the postal service, but the U.S. military remains intent on spending hundreds of billions to keep 700+ overseas bases open: http://www.lesswaiting.com/cost-overseas-bases.shtml

  9. WestCoast September 26, 2011 at 9:45 am #

    A really clear explanation of the mechanics and outcomes of this is that of Prof. Michael Hudson:
    “Banks will get paid when people go into a decade of stagnation and voluntary poverty all over Europe, especially Greece”…
    Those uppity Europeans! How dare they not do that?

  10. greyghost05 September 26, 2011 at 9:49 am #

    Great post. It will be interesting and scary when it does hit the fan.
    Be prepared !
    And as for the General crossing the Potomic,you just might see that sooner then you think. IF Panetta keeps cutting back our defence systems it could spur a coup. There is a point where someone will step in and stop this deliberate national suicide brought on by the liberals. Never weaken yourself to appease your enemies or competitors. Strength and resolve are what keeps the wolves from the sheep.

  11. timetobike September 26, 2011 at 9:50 am #

    It’s interesting you mention carp.
    The Asian carp is an aggressive and adaptable species that has invaded the Mississippi River system. On the political front there are moves a foot to close the channel (built about 100 years ago)to prevent the Asian carp from swimming into and having a major presence in the Great Lakes system and all of its thousands of tributory bodies of water, destroying what’s left of the local fishery. Closing this channel, however, would be a blow to international trade, as there is bulk material shipping from the Great Lakes the Mississippi and beyond and so seems unlikely.
    However, there is a certain type of entertainment these carp provide. The carp, for some reason, are stimulated to jump when speed boat go by. A motor boater (while the fossil fuels last) can make figure eights in the Illinois River. This will cause a number of these 20 pound fish to jump, sometimes into the boat. One can try to catch them or try to hit them with a baseball bat or otherwise test one’s reflexes. Sometimes the fish missles will blindside one and knock one in the head. However,without danger there is no adventure.
    James, thanks for your writing as always.

  12. ozone September 26, 2011 at 9:57 am #

    ” In the meantime, can anybody answer this question: where is the Tea Party of Progressives? Why are the Nascar morons and Jesus jokers the only people in this country who can mount an aggressive political movement? Will somebody please step up and take the baton?” -JHK
    Mr K.,
    I know it sounds weird, but those that have some clues and have their noses into the wind are waiting to see which way the Christo-cripple-true-believers are going to jump [and aggregate], and then [figuratively] run like hell in the exact opposite direction. (Kind of a “head down, powder dry” type position.)
    Cowardly? One could interpret it that way, but I tend to think of it more as a survival strategy. “Call me coward, but ‘ware my existence; I am more dangerous than my ghost…”

  13. lpat September 26, 2011 at 10:00 am #

    Tea party progressives?
    Blowing in the wind with Joe Hill’s ashes.

  14. KrankyinVancouver September 26, 2011 at 10:01 am #

    Progressive anger (that is ready to take action) is an oxymoron.
    One has to be willing to stand at the front line, charge into the abyss and risk personal loss, pain and injury to mount aggressive campaigns. Intelligence may be a liability under such circumstances.
    Believing in a righteous place in the afterlife makes it much easier to saddle up yer guns ‘n go. Also, you have to be prepared to pull the trigger, condemn & execute likely innocents as well as the unfortunate collaterals along the way. Forgiveness of sins and mistakes helps to wash away the guilt of decisive action.
    Where are the Ghandians, willing to take the blows, the modern freedom riders? Nostalgia for the civil rights movement isn’t same as walking the line. Is filing a class action lawsuit or a discrimination claim as visceral as not being allowed to drink from public fountains, or remaining seated on a bus?
    Which side presents the pageantry, the solemn ceremonies honoring the fallen? You cannot tell people to fight to the death for bread, as it is of no use to the dead. You should probably re-read Mein Kampf, and listen to Wagner to appreciate the mystic state that denies physical reality and the ennobles the pursuit of honor through violence.
    Basically, most intellectuals have become chicken shits, counting on their access controlled doors, laminated & reinforced glass and the minor goons of the security companies to keep order in their world. They have abdicated responsibility for their personal security, while the ‘guns for Jesus’ crowd at least goes to the range and practices hitting human shaped targets.
    I would like to see a progressive say, “we are willing to take fifty thousand casualties to achieve our goals”, and then try to recruit them to the cause. Good luck with that.

  15. Chris B September 26, 2011 at 10:03 am #

    All:
    Please send copies of Jim’s books to the OCCUPY WALL STREET site. They have a library there and are requesting books to educate themselves.
    You can bring the books to the site – just ask for the library and they will be gratefully received (and you will meet some extraordinary people!) or you can send the books to:
    The UPS Store
    Re: Occupy Wall Street
    118A Fulton St. #205
    New York, NY 10038
    Also, send other books or articles that you think these guys and gals should read to become well rounded and aware.

  16. doomster September 26, 2011 at 10:04 am #

    It’s also obnoxious when businessmen and politicians, including Obama, compare the Postal Service to FedEx or UPS – as if they were doing the same thing. FedEx and UPS don’t have to deliver letters or send & receive items from every postal address six days per week. I can walk to my mailbox and mail a padded envelope with some extra stamps on it – or travel a ten-mile round trip to the nearest UPS shipping location and pay considerably more.

  17. CynicalOne September 26, 2011 at 10:05 am #

    doomster wrote:
    “at least it accomplishes something useful and reduces how much people have to drive their cars.”
    Not always. It’s a small thing but…my MIL, who lives on a very fixed income, drives 7 miles to take her outgoing mail to the local post office when she could put it in the mailbox at her front porch.
    I think she likes to visit with the Postmaster. I suppose that’s useful. The fact that she’s wasting $3/gal gasoline is apparently lost on her.

  18. Bludawg September 26, 2011 at 10:09 am #

    I’m a NASCAR fan and Jesus is my friend and savior, but I don’t care for the tea party. I don’t take offense to your remarks, but stereo-types don’t always fit.
    In some ways I dread what’s coming. In some ways I look forward to it. There are pro’s and con’s to the future like you find with anything.
    Wall St., CEO’s, etc. who don’t know how to tie their own shoes are going to have a hard time. I prefer my jack-of-all-trades, bibbed-overall wearing husband to an exquisitely dressed guy who only knows how to play golf, sell stock or send jobs overseas.

  19. doomster September 26, 2011 at 10:09 am #

    Re: CynicalOne – well, you just can’t stop some people from wasting energy. Look at the people who buy a new, more energy-efficient refrigerator and keep the old one running in another room…

  20. conchscooter September 26, 2011 at 10:09 am #

    Always we are warned of impending physical stress and pain as the reset button is about to get pushed, but this process of social dismemberment carries a much greater psychic burden. For all of us who thought we counted, in the grand scheme of things, the incessant demand that we not touch the wealthy with taxes, coupled with continuous demands tha we dismantle our public services should be a clear warning to all former middle class Americans that we do not count. We are the peasants standing at the side of then road as the American Military Convoys rumble by. We are the shaded peasant faces standing behind Pancho Villa as he shows off his new car to the cameras. We are the farmers who farmed as the revolution swept their land in 1775, trying to keep on making a living and feeding our families as the heroic Makers of History rode through the night warning of thenimpending arrival of the oppressors.
    In simple terms we middle class peasants don’t cpunt when kt comes to deciding who loses everything and who gets everything. We have been fed a diet of supremacy since World War Two and now we need to unlearn the lesson. We are expendable, we deserve nothing. All hail the banksters who must be kept whole at our expense.
    And for pity’s sake don’t protest, even on Wall Street because no one will notice you anyway.

  21. slide September 26, 2011 at 10:09 am #

    James,
    I like your writing style but your reading lacks a bit. The A1, S8 of the Constitution permits Congress to create the postal system. It does not mandate that one be created. There is nothing illegal if the USPS were ended.
    I’d prefer it get a makeover like those corporate CEO’s you detest wish, though. It can operate and it does provide a needed service but not the way it’s currently operated. It needs a major overhaul.

  22. WestCoast September 26, 2011 at 10:10 am #

    Here’s an audio link to Michael Hudson on Europe
    and how the bankers demand that entire countries
    go into a decade of depression to pay back their loans that went to their oligarchies. How dare those Icelanders vote it down–Twice!
    Don’t let the absurd intro music dissuade you, it’s well worth listening to. Hudson is one of the few that
    can make complicated finance understandable to the average Joe or Jane.
    http://www.kpfa.org/archive/id/73344

  23. CynicalOne September 26, 2011 at 10:14 am #

    KrankyinVancouver wrote:
    “Basically, most intellectuals have become chicken shits,”
    and
    “I would like to see a progressive say, “we are willing to take fifty thousand casualties to achieve our goals”, and then try to recruit them to the cause. Good luck with that.”
    +1
    brianh,
    More tellin’ it like it is. +1

  24. agribiz September 26, 2011 at 10:14 am #

    The “progressives” who make up the citizen power in the Democratic party are not. They are primarily compensated and/or pension holding professionals; upper middle class people who are very if not most often MORE divorced from the working class than the Tea Partiers of the far right in a practical or technical sense.
    Condescending and patronizing, albeit conscience (shame?) driven they have no natural, instincive or acquired feel for the lower classes. And they naively believe that they actually created wealth through their earnings and accumulation.
    Only when the institutional Democrats become democrats and become consistently genuine progressive will we even as much as begin to hold a legitimate conversation. Of those of that description I encounter personally, that being dozens a day, only a very few are of the opinion or understanding that we can’t get through this and maintain lifestyle, equity and culture. Yet, insistent that that it can be “fixed”
    The Clinton/McCauliffe/DLC/”New Democrats” phenomena was the removal of the firewall. Deregulation of finance opened the floodgates. Offered up the false confidence of bubbles and hyper leverage.
    I can’t envision a pitchfork weilding army or even so much as a mass boycotting or hunger striking mass of retired government employees, services administrators and clerks demanding mark to market accounting or resolution of the finincial institutions that harbor their ever increasingly and vulnerable funds.
    The forces that used upper middle class liberals like rented mules in this recent generation have always been at play. However, they have generally been held at bay by progressives, on both sides of the political aisle, actually. Now, hardly anybody even knows that they exist, or what progressivsm or the history of it is, and as a result too many have devoted their (genuine) conscience and empathy driven energy to boutique issues and causes.
    Punked, indeed.

  25. Neon Vincent September 26, 2011 at 10:18 am #

    I’m glad you pointed out that delivering the mail is one of the duties of the U.S. government listed in the Constitution. When I point that out to conservatives, it doesn’t seem to make much of an impression anymore.
    As for where the Tea Party is for progressives, there are several of us. Your estranged neighbor Elaine Meinel Supkis is blogging about the “Occupy Wall Street” crowd, who are the Anonymous who were protesting Scientology a few years bad. They’re now going after a bigger target. There is U.S. Uncut, who are their parents who sympathize with them and are going after Bank of America. There’s also Coffee Party USA. We have something planned for the last Saturday in October on the Mall in Washington, D.C. I keep telling you about the Coffee Party, but you never seem to recall. Maybe when you promote your next book, you or your agent might remember, now that I’m telling you, that we have a Blog Talk Radio channel. I’m one of its hosts.
    I didn’t blog about the Coffee Party last week, although I did the week of July 4th. However, I did blog about both the Postal Service and Food Stamps in “Silly Sustainability Saturday: While the World burns, Farmville thrives” on Crazy Eddie’s Motie News. There was a lot of grousing about Facebook, which seems to get more attention than the economy among people online. At least the price of gas is down–for now!
    http://crazyeddiethemotie.blogspot.com/

  26. Confusionism September 26, 2011 at 10:18 am #

    I’ll take on of those free dinners at Taillevent please.

  27. CynicalOne September 26, 2011 at 10:21 am #

    No, you can’t. I guess it’s one my pet peeves seeing people who barely have enough money to get by making foolish choices. Grrrr….
    I do agree about the post offices. Saturday delivery is stupid, imo. Two or 3 deliveries a week would suit me just fine. What IS the big deal????

  28. Keith Snyder September 26, 2011 at 10:21 am #

    Why are the Nascar morons and Jesus jokers the only people in this country who can mount an aggressive political movement?

    Because aggression comes from ignorance and fear.
    Also because we’re all looking around for

    somebody

    to step up and take the baton.

  29. lbendet September 26, 2011 at 10:26 am #

    It’s our turn to cry
    JHK, I keep talking about neoliberalism and the shock doctrine. If this isn’t that moment, then I don’t know what is.
    Obviously they need to blow up the global finances in order to take society through the rampant privatization that Milton Friedman exhorted.
    We are now that laboratory, perfect for the next step and if you haven’t read the Shock Doctrine by Naomi Klein, then you don’t recognize it for exactly what it is. Read it and weep because this thing is a steam roller and it’s flattening the western world.
    Once you know the theory and how they work it, you don’t have to be as brilliant as Larry Summers and his ilk (making 500% on the public to private conversion), who used it on Russia, using the alcoholic Yeltsin after the fall of the USSR.
    Of course they want to get their mitts on social security, and Medicare. Of course they want to privatize the Post Office. They hate the nation state and hate the public sector. It must always be a profit center. Them’s the rules.
    In Europe, they may be planning to overhaul the whole government run medical apparatus. There’s a reason why people who know how economies work would blow up the global economy. I don’t believe for one second that these people didn’t know what they were doing.
    The economy based on debt only helps the banks and makes the rest of us debt peons. I’m no economist, but I know that we have had less options for saving our money since the 1970’s.
    We used to be able to put money into safe FDIC backed savings accounts and make money on our money for instance. Less liberty for us and a whole lot more for the banks who want no regulations and no money to back any of their casino bets even now after everything we’ve seen!
    Who knows how this is going to end, war, depression? It’s anyone’s guess but I do know it’s a powder keg just ready to blow.

  30. lsjogren September 26, 2011 at 10:29 am #

    I wish to add a few sour notes:
    Why did JHK expect Obama to have a clue? He gave no indication in his campaign that he was any less a believer in the establishment boogiemen that are supposedly the challenges we face than other politicians. And even if he had had a clue it would be political suicide to act on that.
    As to how come there is not a tea party of progressives? There is, it is called the progressive movement. Progressives have a different set of delusional diagnoses and prescriptions for our society as the tea party does.
    And why is a tea party of the left a good thing? So we can have some sort of quasistable ideological equilibrium in the form of a Balance of Whackjobism?

  31. Warren Peace September 26, 2011 at 10:30 am #

    The New Yok Times took up your question over the weekend: “Whatver Happened to the American Left”:
    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/25/opinion/sunday/whatever-happened-to-the-american-left.html?_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss
    The Nascar morons and Jesus jokers are bankrolled by those with deep pockets. they’ve got the Koch Brothers bankrolling their shenanigans, Dick Armey organizing them, and Rupert Murdoch giving them a national platform. We’ve been here before. The big industrialists backed the nascent Nazi party to head off the Communists. At least Hitler would let the industrialists keep their companies, in exchange for letting the state push them around. The Communists would abolish them totally, maybe even hanf them in the public square.
    Sinilarly, bankrolling the Tea Party keeps the little people angry at government rather than the banks and big corporations. BUt beware – the industrialists of Germany thought they could control Hitler. The joke was on them, and the German people. Similarly, I think the American plutocrats bankrolling the Tea Party don’t know what they’ve unleashed.
    Ah well, as usual, the office drones are rhapsodizing about their fantasy football heroes. Fantasy football for a fantasy nation.

  32. mow September 26, 2011 at 10:31 am #

    the teabaggers versus the coffeebeaners
    lmfao

  33. Alannala September 26, 2011 at 10:33 am #

    “…Just so you know the sort of fate we are tempting with our shenanigans…” JK’s style of inclusiveness. Excuse me, but I am not a player.

  34. Alannala September 26, 2011 at 10:38 am #

    hear hear!

  35. empirestatebuilding September 26, 2011 at 10:39 am #

    Meanwhile the “protesters” in lower Manhattan have no unified message and no game plan other than to video tape themselves being arrested by the NYPD.
    Where is the ghost MLK when you need him? He must be on the payroll of some hedge fund.
    Aimlow Joe was here
    http://www.aimlow.com

  36. Smokyjoe September 26, 2011 at 10:40 am #

    “where is the Tea Party of Progressives?”
    We on the Left resemble a tea party, but an overly sensitive, Kumbaya, step-on-no-toes one where actual tea gets poured (and smoked). Just be sure everyone gets their sugar and cream.
    It’s pathetic. We need the old class of working men to see who is turning the screws today and take to the streets. Their grandfathers supported FDR against the idiocy of the GOP of the 1920s, George Babbitt vintage. Today their grandsons, displaced and downsized out of the American dream, rally to the Tea Party, the very force whipped up by the GOP’s corporate sponsors.
    We need Yippies, not old academic Hippies, to stand up to these NASCAR morons and Jesus-jokers. We need more George Carlins (Jon Stewart is a point of light among the otherwise humorless Left). The kids in Wall Street, who at least have the spine to take to the streets, have no coherent agenda.
    The Tea Party doesn’t either, cramming Ayn Randians and Dominionists under one tent. But they do have a coherent political goal: less of our current government.
    If they gained a lot of power and tried to decide what government *should* do, I’d predict dissent and violence among their ranks. Then we’d need that General from the Pentagon, though we’d best hope he’s not a Dominionist Christian.
    This is why I stick with wimpy Progressives and Leftists. I don’t think they are going to every kill me or anyone else, except by boredom.

  37. Solar Guy September 26, 2011 at 10:42 am #

    I have stepped up. I am going to change the world. Baton in hand.
    PUSH ON. DO GOOD. KEEP SMILING.
    – Solar Guy

  38. LaughingAsRomeWasBurningDown September 26, 2011 at 10:44 am #

    JHK, good column this week. Added “mummery” to my vocabulary, thanks.
    Speaking of the tea party progressives, if they hold a protest on Wall St. and no media covers it, did it really happen? Damn that “liberal” media.

  39. csafarmer September 26, 2011 at 10:45 am #

    Personally, I’m planning to feed and protect my family and a couple like-minded friends. I think we are past the point where intelligent, organized political action will succeed in time to stave off disaster.
    I think it was Dmitry Orlov who said that the two survival modes for the near future will be 1 – nomadic, moving away from trouble and towards resources, or 2 – building something that will be more useful to whatever ‘powers that be’ intact rather than looted.
    I’ve got a small farm, a long gun, and the skills to use both. I only half-jokingly tell people who annoy me (i.e. daughter’s boyfriends, proselytizing religious types, etc) ‘I’ve got a shotgun, a shovel, and 52 acres; don’t piss me off’
    I don’t want to do the nomadic thing unless pushed to it, and the ‘bug-out bag’ is ready if/when necessary, but I’m counting on my little ‘lifeboat’ here to see me and mine through.
    I don’t have the time to convince others of what they should do; anybody who hasn’t got the message yet probably won’t wake up in time to seriously prepare anyway.
    I am spending some time ‘sorting’ (rather than convincing); i.e. I am sorting my friends and neighbors into those who are ready to do something now, from those who aren’t.
    Most of my non-farming attention is being spent with the former, to create a local network of like-minded folks that will hopefully be able to plan and act together when necessary.
    I’m not wasting any time waiting for a ‘political hero’ to ride to the rescue; we’ve seen just how impotent they all are (regardless of political stripe) to really affect what’s coming. In short, talk time just about over; deeds not words from this point forward.

  40. 3rd Generation September 26, 2011 at 10:49 am #

    deliquescing
    You must be So Proud and Feel So Superior today.
    Your ramblings this week were like used-dishwater, but again, Congratulations on:
    deliquescing wow, I LIKE the way that sounds
    deliquescingdeliquescingdeliquescingdeliquescingdeliquescingdeliquescingdeliquescingdeliquescingdeliquescingdeliquescingdeliquescingdeliquescingdeliquescingdeliquescingdeliquescingdeliquescing

  41. loveday September 26, 2011 at 10:55 am #

    Hello all
    Oh yes, we are well and truly punked at this point. Even that chibbering brigand Christine LaGarde can’t avoid the fact that anymore austerity in Greece will blow up all of Europe. But she still has the unmitigated stupidity to insist on more austerity and full repayment
    of Greece’s so called debts. Once Europe goes down you can plan on the North American continent following within hours to days.
    Sjorgen, please don’t be naive, Obama has fulfilled all of his goals very admirably from his point of view. No help for the middle class, continuous bailouts for his major campaign donors , continuation of the wars for profit scam, Guantanamo up and running full speed, a healthcare Trojan horse plan- designed to extract the most pennies from the sick and dying. Come on haven’t you twigged on yet? He is the supremely smooth stealth weapon in the hands of the oligarchs. Don’t doubt it. Meanwhile his wifey spends millions on vacations. Talk about audacity(and not audacity of hope), I’ll just say!
    Watching all the events unfold with disgust and terror.
    loveday

  42. Neon Vincent September 26, 2011 at 11:05 am #

    “the teabaggers versus the coffeebeaners”
    Coffee Party USA isn’t really the anti-Tea-Party, but at least you read what I wrote. Thanks. Also, I’ll pass that along to the rest of leadership. They’ll get a chuckle out of it.
    If you want to know what we really are like, read Jim’s “My Tea Party” from last year. We’re on board with 80% of what he wants. As for the other 20%, half of Jim’s ideas about a more sustainable future through trains would work, but what looks like an austerity program would be hard to swallow (the movement is anti-austerity, at least as a tool of plutocracy) and the anti-immigrant plank of Jim’s platform will never fly. The founder immigrated from Korea as a child.

  43. Lindsay Curren September 26, 2011 at 11:05 am #

    “Where are they going to get the money? From the machinists’ union in Dusseldorf? The waiters and chambermaids in Munich?”
    JHK gives too little credit to the plans designed to raise revenue. I just heard a report on NPR the other day that one way to scare up some cash in Europe is to make sure prostitutes pay their fair share of taxes.
    To that end the German government (I think) has issued Tart Cards, er something like that, in which the Lady of the Night in question has to make sure she inputs the card on any working day, paying an $8 fee for that day’s (night’s) work. If she’s caught soliciting and hasn’t punched the card that day, she gets a warning. The next time, a fine.
    Perhaps nothing is so fitting a metaphor for Europe’s digging in the couch cushions for coins as this. Finally they’re being open about whoring for money.
    Let’s hope a lot of people want to pay for five-ten minutes worth of companionship and that the sex peddlers follow state policy. Otherwise, they’re f*cked!
    (I swear this was a real policy idea presented on the radio last week or so).

  44. Lindsay Curren September 26, 2011 at 11:07 am #

    “Where are they going to get the money? From the machinists’ union in Dusseldorf? The waiters and chambermaids in Munich?”
    JHK gives too little credit to the plans designed to raise revenue. I just heard a report on NPR the other day that one way to scare up some cash in Europe is to make sure prostitutes pay their fair share of taxes.
    To that end the German government (I think) has issued Tart Cards, er something like that, in which the Lady of the Night in question has to make sure she inputs the card on any working day, paying an $8 fee for that day’s (night’s) work. If she’s caught soliciting and hasn’t punched the card that day, she gets a warning. The next time, a fine.
    Perhaps nothing is so fitting a metaphor for Europe’s digging in the couch cushions for coins as this. Finally they’re being open about whoring for money.
    Let’s hope a lot of people want to pay for five-ten minutes worth of companionship and that the sex peddlers follow state policy. Otherwise, they’re f*cked!
    (I swear this was a real policy idea presented on the radio last week or so).

  45. Confusionism September 26, 2011 at 11:22 am #

    Harry?

  46. Paulus September 26, 2011 at 11:24 am #

    I see in today’s news they’re raising the possibility of a “partial” default by Greece on its debt obligations.
    It’s amazing how a little bit of spin makes the worst news somehow palatable, almost tasty.
    Or, to quote Mary Poppins in the movie, “A Spoonful of Sugar makes the Medicine…go Down.”

  47. ront September 26, 2011 at 11:32 am #

    “The rage of millions will shred the trappings of fakery, and for a while things will seem too real. The world has no idea how all this might resolve. What a show.”
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Za5AH7qVlqE

  48. Steve knox September 26, 2011 at 11:33 am #

    You’ve hit the nail on the head. We won’t discuss that! We will continue to lie and play make believe that we can have it all, and not pay for it. So when we can no longer kick the can down the road, and lose everything, the result will be chaos. Now is the time to think about the unthinkable, so that we avoid it.

  49. ccm989 September 26, 2011 at 11:42 am #

    It seems to me that there are only 2 options now — (1) the entire world agrees to absolve most debts and reduce the rest of them for everyone but the world Banksters will throw raging fits and politicians everywhere will capitulate or (2) the Tea Party wins and taxes are no longer paid because Western Civilization has collapsed. No more taxes means no more schools/hospitals, etc. No more safety either. Food will stop being delivered to grocery stores because no one will have any credit. Old people, the sick, the very young and the vulnerable will die first. Everyone will be on their own. Stock up on ammo/guns/canned food/bottled water because there won’t be any left to buy. The police and military are gone because they’re not being paid either. So that opens us to invasion by foreign countries because now we’re completely disorganized. No one is in charge anymore. And everything is ripe for the picking by giants like Russia or China.
    The whole world is suffering from massive unemployment (not just the US). The US, Europe and the Middle East have millions unemployed and are growing angry because no one is willing to say “Hey, let’s tax the rich more!” so we can fix collapsing bridges or help with national disasters like prolonged droughts and destructive hurricanes and put people back to work with jobs that CAN’T be outsourced. That would be too sensible for politicians. Just imagine all the Tea Baggers who will have gold/silver/cash/stock/bonds on hand, who killed civilization and everyone with it so they wouldn’t have to hand over a percentage of their precious loot to some central bureaucracy. Will they think their cash is all that important when the worlds burns down to the ground?

  50. SeaYoung September 26, 2011 at 11:55 am #

    Long Term Solutions for Perpetually Punked
    Consider the amount of tax money you send to the Federal Government each year. When completeing your state and federal tax forms note the diffence in where you dollars are sent.
    Does it make more sense to trust your dollars to the Feds or to your more local officials? Imagine for a moment the services your state could offer now flush with cash. Parks, greenways, transit, better (lower cost) education, business development and a true local choice in the matter.
    The process of scaling back Washington, in of itself, will shrink the beltway bandit mentality that much of corporate America depends on to satisfy shareholders. Yes to local business, local food, and an empowered local government.
    Southern View

  51. Newfie September 26, 2011 at 11:59 am #

    Good essay. Too funny. And true. What about the kids on Wall Street being sprayed with Mace ? Any insight into that ?

  52. Jerry McManus September 26, 2011 at 12:10 pm #

    How odd, why would Jim close with a question that he just spent his entire post rendering moot?
    There will be no rising up of the progressive left precisely because they are not the politics of rage. I would go even further and argue that progressive politics (and non-violent protest) is a luxury afforded only by those with abundant resources and a thriving economy.
    Both of which appear to be in dwindling supply, as of late.
    Besides, what exactly would the aging baby-boomers and young wanna-be hippies actually be protesting? Their own obscene and now suddenly obsolete standard of living?
    Perhaps their time would be better spent preparing to be impoverished.
    Cheers,
    Jerry

  53. WorldsEdge September 26, 2011 at 12:13 pm #

    People will look back to the savings and loan scam of twenty years ago as a watershed event. “Never in history was there such a massive transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich”. Well, they got away with it. People grumbled then shrugged. The short-term outrage of the people helped elect Clinton, who promptly forgot about the whole thing. This set the model for huge 2008 Bush bailout and now the enforced Euro bank welfare scheme.

  54. budizwiser September 26, 2011 at 12:17 pm #

    JK,
    Nice enough rant, yeah nice is all. The Cat must have your quill pen – no point in restating the obvious.
    As far as the need for a “progressive” party – please refer back to “square one” of CF Nation.
    Formulating a political party assumes that the current government is legitimate and managed as a result of elections and civil will. I think we both know this is no longer the case. Right-thinking people are correctly understanding the futile nature of using political power to affect change. As you conclude, reality will seep into public discourse sooner or later.
    My current perspective suggests that the rich have effectively marginalized those people with failing standards of living. You see Jim, it is the poor, the ignorant and the old and unproductive folks that are the enemy of our prosperity. We must disabuse them of any claim of “rights” or entitlement of governmental redress or access.
    As long as the cheese-doodles fill the guts and the TV dims the brains of the masses there is little hope of fomenting a vengeful right-thinking public.

  55. lpat September 26, 2011 at 12:26 pm #

    Liberalism: We do hereby most humbly acknowledge that the immutable laws of nature and of nature’s god ordain free-market capitalism as the one true religion, i.e. economic system, and that the earth entire, all its critters and every single gene of every strand of their DNA, the solar system and all the stars in the firmament belong to capital. We also most humbly recognize that those laws require capital to fuck the common people long and hard. We, however, do beg, plead and only most tenuously legislate that you not fuck the people too long and hard. Only the bare, requisite minimum—with maybe just a little “feel good” extra on the margins.
    We have the largest military and the largest prison system in the world. The wars on the left, organized crime, drugs and terror have completely destroyed any meaningful constitutional protections. I wouldn’t hold my breath for any epiphanies, Mr. K.

  56. spencerpsn September 26, 2011 at 12:28 pm #

    “In the meantime, can anybody answer this question: where is the Tea Party of Progressives?”
    Errrr, in the White House?
    I’m mean what do you want? For the last forty years administration after administration has advanced the progressive agenda. Even the ones you didn’t like such as Bush I and II and Ronny.
    Moreover how are people who believe in a techno utopia of post humans possibly going to come to terms with a future, sorry present, of an ex- industrial Dark Age?
    You wonder why the elites and their followers can’t comprehend the now distinct outline of the great demonic locomotive of doom bearing down on our civilisation? Two words baby: Whig History.

  57. loveday September 26, 2011 at 12:34 pm #

    Jerry
    Never fear when those progressives face starving kids, when winter sets in and everyone is freezing, in short when things get bad enough those progressives will disappear like a morning dew. In their place pragmatic folks who want to survive will get the job done. The saying is “hell hath no fury like a woman scorned”, well that can also apply to a scorned progressive. The pols should take note that betrayal will not be forgotten nor forgiven. Those progressives will shed their veneer of civilization like a snake skin and fight like hell to survive. Remember Kennedy said” If you prevent peaceful revolution, you force violent revolution.”
    Also stop pretending the middle classes are to blame for the financial mess( obscene lifestyles?). The blame is squarely on the criminal bankers who perpetuate fraud, engage in mass robbery and cover it all up with a “We’re doing God’s work” mentality. Please pay attention.
    loveday

  58. shadowplay September 26, 2011 at 12:46 pm #

    JHK, you ask where the ‘progressive’ tea partiers are? They are the fine folks who are occupying Wall Street (and the sister movements forming in San Francisco, Dallas, Los Angeles, Cleavland, Portland, etc):
    https://occupywallst.org/
    http://twitter.com/#!/OccupyWallSt
    This may be the beginning of the beginning of people acknowledging the beginning of the end of the world as we know it.

  59. insufferable September 26, 2011 at 12:53 pm #

    Jim, the reason why religious people and tea party people are the only ones organized who want to help this nation is because the others you are speaking of are not capable of organizing in a way that will benefit anyone but themselves. Its called selfishness. The gay agenda is ONLY for itself. The Left Wing is only for itself, and not inclusive of others that don’t agree with it (its main philosophy seems to be anarchy , after a couple of joints and maybe knocking back a few drinks.) and whatever else is there out there??? I really don’t know. You have the die hard druggies, alcoholics, and narcissists. So in the end you pose a question,that is the quintessential question. Where is everbody else besides the Tea Party and Jesus followers? Don’t forget the Jesus followers and Orthodox jewish communities have a lot in common. Its called, “looking out for your neighbor, instead of yourself all the time, ie. sacrifice if you have to.) It may not be easy for those narcissists to understand but that is main distinction between those that think to help their neighbor and those that want to step on their neighbor to get what they want.

  60. shecky September 26, 2011 at 12:54 pm #

    I believe it was Patrick Henry who said:
    “Once the dick is up your ass, good luck putting a rubber on it.”

  61. Widespreadpanic7 September 26, 2011 at 1:06 pm #

    Tea Party Progressives?
    Ya, we got ’em. They’re called ‘Code Pink’.
    But they are not protesting foreign wars anymore since their side is running them.
    –Widespreadpanic

  62. Gerrit Botha September 26, 2011 at 1:09 pm #

    Tea party of the left? We call it Canada. You folks on the left are welcome up here when it all goes to pot down there. Seriously, the left seems to lack all conviction, as the poet said. Your lunatic right has seized the national narrative and we’ve been looking on in astonishment, wondering the exact same thing, “Where’s the left? Where are your convictions?” Theirs they wear on their shirtsleeves, but where’s yours? What do you believe in? What do you stand for?
    Best wishes to you all, but reality will probably prevail.
    Gerrit in Ottawa

  63. The Anti-Gnostic September 26, 2011 at 1:13 pm #

    There will never be a revolt from the progressives against their own social democratic State. Kunstler needs to wake up from his liberal fog.
    Also, progressives have committed the following strategic errors:
    They’ve alienated white people, particularly the white working class.
    They’re not armed.
    They’re anti-religious.
    They don’t have children.

  64. BrainGlutton September 26, 2011 at 1:26 pm #

    “Progressive Tea Party”? Left-populist? There was an effort to start something like that in the early 1990s, the New Party, but it didn’t get national organizing success and petered out. The nearest thing now is the Working Families Party, in New York and a couple other state.

  65. Jay Schiavone September 26, 2011 at 1:27 pm #

    “In the meantime, can anybody answer this question: where is the Tea Party of Progressives?”
    The “tea party” (as they are appropriately named in the LA Times) is not a Party at all, but a disparate, disordered catch-all which has been embraced by the corporate media. If “the media” had a mind to do it, they could dub a liberal/left alternative. They could have done it easily in Madison, WI a couple of months ago. They could do it today with #OccupyWallStreet if they so choose. These groups are at least as credible as the so-called “tea party,” more educated and more representative of the actual (financial) interests of average US citizens. I wonder why the MSM doesn’t glom on to these liberal groups the way they do to the not-genuinely-existent Tea Party.

  66. The Anti-Gnostic September 26, 2011 at 1:36 pm #

    Jay,
    Public employee unions are not populist and not representative of the financial interests of typical US citizens.
    I don’t know about OccupyWallStreet, but most progressives realize that without the Fed and its network of primary dealers on Wall Street, their crackpot utopian schemes could never be financed solely by tax revenue from net payors.

  67. Kevin September 26, 2011 at 1:37 pm #

    “In the meantime, can anybody answer this question: where is the Tea Party of Progressives?”
    I suppose an appropriate name would be the Wake Up And Smell The Coffee Party.

  68. malthus September 26, 2011 at 1:38 pm #

    It is interesting that many commentors here envision a “Road Warrior” type future, and meanwhile I am pretty sure those in power envision a 1984 Big Brother type future. Given the heavy use of drones and weapons we are not even told about they are practicing for it at this very moment so it will all come down to who our all voluntary military is going to back. Remember Hitler, Pol Pot, and Stalin all had people that did the dirty work and willingly so.

  69. Nickelthrower September 26, 2011 at 1:40 pm #

    Greetings,
    Movements begin one person at a time.
    I believe that the grid is unsustainable therefore I am off of the grid.
    I believe that peak oil is here therefore I live on a sailboat and let the wind push me around.
    I believe that large agro-business is doomed therefore I purchase much of my food locally.
    I believe that working for a large corporation is no different than voluntary slavery therefore I refuse to work for ANYBODY but myself.
    The difference between an activist and a blowhard is action. Someone that tells me that peak oil is here and is doing NOTHING about it doesn’t really believe what they are saying. Likewise, someone that tells me that the grid is unsustainable but, yet, is still ON the grid doesn’t believe the words coming out of their own mouth.
    If you believe, act. If not, shut up.

  70. Vlad Krandz September 26, 2011 at 1:57 pm #

    More 60’s idealism? Wtf? The Left won the Culture war. The radicals (including the terrorist Ayers) got jobs teaching in Universities. This IS their system. They weren’t finished but they were well on their way to creating a Maoist America. Now that’s not going to happen and they’re bitter.
    You can’t combine what they want with traditional America. It’s one or the other. They weren’t satisified with a safety net and some degree of socialism – they wanted the whole nine yard. Therefore they will get nothing. The Tea Party knows this and they are morally justified in their struggle. It’s true that most of them are dupes of the Corporations. But there’s a higher Tea Party that isn’t. That’s why Fox News hates Ron Paul.
    But you all don’t want to know about the intelligent Tea Party anymore than you care to differentiate Creationism from Intelligent Design. You like your hatred and feelings of Superiority. And like Lucan, you can’t stand the FACT that the Old Right was onto the Fed and the Global Conspiracy LONG before you were. The much maligned and mocked John Birch Society predicted all this generations ago.

  71. Mrs. Soake September 26, 2011 at 1:58 pm #

    Everyone please discount ANYTHING asoka has said lately and that goes for this week, too. He’s been off his meds for September due to financial difficulties. Thank you.

  72. Vlad Krandz September 26, 2011 at 2:09 pm #

    Traditional Religion teaches to love and help your neighbor. Leftism takes away the voluntary aspect as well as the decison of who exactly to help. It is therefore the enemy of love and breeds only resentment on the part of both the givers and the recievers. The getters just want more and feel no gratitude whatsoever. The givers feel used and they are correct. Imagine the evil of taking people’s money to fund things they don’t believe in – like abortion. If that’s not wrong, then nothing is wrong. And that is ultimate Leftist/Anarchist meme: nothing is wrong, all is permitted. As long as someone else has to pick up the pieces and pay for a new one. The only sin is Moral Judgement – Tolerance the new God – even of the Intolerable.
    The Tea Party is against this Cosmic Evil and even though dupes, they do the good they know. The real danger is the Limbaugh’s and Hannity’s who seek to tap the outrage and use it to strengthen the corrupt Republican Party. The Tea Party has to go out on its own with men like Ron and Rand Paul as their leaders. They know about the dangers of the Corporations as well as the dangers of Big Goverment.

  73. JulettaofOhio September 26, 2011 at 2:11 pm #

    Oh, for God’s sake! The right wing wants to destroy the post office???? On what evidence? Most of us just want to survive. The small village in which we live will disappear without the post office and in the 108 houses making up the village, there isn’t a knot of middle-aged conservatives plotting to tear down the system. And as for the military, I have two sons there, both officers, and I can assure you that the average soldier has no control over what DC does or doesn’t do. Obama has no conception of honorable service and probably wouldn’t know what to do with a gun if you shoved one in his hand. He uses the military to bluster around Europe and the Middle-East. Sure sign of a shortage of testosterone when you need serfs to fight all your battles. Do you honestly think the military has any control over what the Maniac-In-Charge decides to do or whom to blow up? Also, keep in mind it’s usually Jesus-loving conservative boys who keep you safe at night. If you’ve served, my apologies, but I doubt you have or you wouldn’t be so farcial.

  74. JulettaofOhio September 26, 2011 at 2:33 pm #

    Thanks, Vlad. Excellent post. You know you’re my favorite!
    Have any of the whiners ever been to a Tea Party meeting? You’ll be surprised to find there are many people indistinguishable from you, and not a preponderance of NASCAR-morons (What do you have against NASCAR, by the way?) or Jesus followers, although obviously more than you’d find at a meeting of the ACLU or CBC. The right lost the media war, but stench can only covered up for so long, and the unworkable tenets of the left are bloating and rising to the surface.

  75. grassroot September 26, 2011 at 2:35 pm #

    Yes, JHK definitely gets kudos for introducting the Anglo-Saxon “mummery” into a sentence where most pundits would have fallen back upon the overused “kabuki.”

  76. Steve M. September 26, 2011 at 2:40 pm #

    We need more of those protesters to occupy Wall Street.

  77. Vlad Krandz September 26, 2011 at 2:42 pm #

    As Horace said, you can cast Nature out with a pitchfork, but it will return.
    Army recruiters were seen hitting on patrons outside a gay bar the other night. Shameless and indecent. Once segregation was outlawed, forced integration becomes the order of the day. Never waste a crisis or fail to take Full advantage of a victory.

  78. Widespreadpanic7 September 26, 2011 at 2:44 pm #

    JullietteofOhio, God Bless You.
    Tea Party Progressives? How the Public Sector Unions? They don’t mind mixing it up with the ‘Right Wing’ (ordinary citizens) while, with the help of their Democratic allies holding office, grabbing all they can from the local, state and Federal treasuries.
    Incidentally, while in S.France in August paid about $9.00 per gallon for gas. And the roads were jam packed.
    –WideSpreadPanic

  79. anonymouse September 26, 2011 at 2:49 pm #

    JHK – funny you think the post office is worth something and tax payers should continue to fund it….well i am sure a welfare recipient feels the same about welfare and a road construction worker feels the same about gov road building.
    you are no better than all the other leach f%cks in that your priorities should be funded…

  80. Vlad Krandz September 26, 2011 at 2:51 pm #

    When is enough enough? Heard about some wretchedness call wing walking. Just as it sounds. They were interviewing this young guy who had lost his Father, Brother, and Fiance to this “sport”. It’s the price you have to pay he said. I mean if he backed out now, it would be a betrayal of them. Thus he Must Double Down. This is the logic of Human Failure and it all pervasive.
    Long Distance swimmer Diana Nyad failed again in her attempt to swim to Cuba. Bitterly disappointed saying that she Knew she could do it and had Seen herself doing it. But she couldn’t do it. Bright siding and its techniques. Werewolves of Sedona again.

  81. Vlad Krandz September 26, 2011 at 2:56 pm #

    They’ll never give up because Communism is a Religion – a perversion of Christianity to be exact. They seek to create the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth all by themselves without God. And they’re willing to sacrafice all the White Lambs to the Black Wolves hoping against hope that the Wolves will become vegetarians. Those are the nice ones. The bad ones want the Lambs to die and pretend that the Wolves ARE the Lambs.

  82. Alannala September 26, 2011 at 3:05 pm #

    Dear Mr. Nicklethrower:
    yes it is admirable that you’re actually living according to your beliefs about the future. The BP oil spill convinced me to get rid of my car and use only a bike. For a while, though, I was quite smug about it. Then I realized, I’ve had 25 years of driving and polluting and supporting the oil companies, etc., and therefore I’ve lost the right to be smug. But of course, I retain the right to be a jerk as necessary, but for strictly personal, not ideological, reasons.
    yours truly,
    alannala

  83. Confusionism September 26, 2011 at 3:05 pm #

    “…but I doubt you have or you wouldn’t be so farcial.”
    Farcial? In your haste to post you managed to make up a word. Comgratulations.

  84. Confusionism September 26, 2011 at 3:07 pm #

    Uh, I meant “Congratulations.”

  85. bproman September 26, 2011 at 3:10 pm #

    Come on in, the water is fine and the sharks haven’t arrived yet.

  86. k-dog September 26, 2011 at 3:55 pm #

    In the meantime, can anybody answer this question: where is the Tea Party of Progressives?

    IMHO
    The emergence of a strong progressive reaction depends on news coverage or it can’t germinate. Unfortunately money dictates what makes news in and progressives are not thought of kindly by corporate interests or the rich. The conservative tea party movement to the contrary reflects similar views to keepers of the gold taken to a wanna-be extreme.
    This means the conservative tea party is not a threat to moneyed interests so long as they don’t get an excessive amount of news coverage, they’re cheerleaders. Progressives however get no coverage. These assholes have ideas and want to change things using their ideas.
    In time past government and corporate media were less sophisticated than now. Reporters covered important progressive issues in attempts to enhance their careers. That nonsense stopped a long time ago. Now reporters with careers are embedded yes men and protest by the left is mostly ignored.
    Control access to corn-pone and you control the world.

  87. JulettaofOhio September 26, 2011 at 4:06 pm #

    Get a dictionary…. Old Oxford would be nice, and not the Cliff’s Notes version.

  88. Vlad Krandz September 26, 2011 at 4:16 pm #

    Take a group of Germans, a group of Nigerians, a group of Chinese, and a group of Greeks and put them on idential islands and come back to generations later. Do you think that the islands will all have the same degree of prosperity and productivity?
    Or do the same with a random group of individuals if you don’t want to muddy the issue with culture. Same thing will happen – vast differences in how well each does.
    Thus Commuism and the Democratic Party and even Democracy in and of itself, are refuted. Equal outcomes are just a fantasy. Free men aren’t equal and equal men aren’t free.

  89. antimatter September 26, 2011 at 4:19 pm #

    I have a hunch, reading comments such as the one about “get a dictionary” are from the angry, ignorant, Tea Party types.
    Anyway, the situation in Europe, as well as the US is this: you give someone a credit card with an infinite credit limit, then, you tell the world, ‘deficits don’t matter’ (remember Cheney’s comment) and then, when the person cannot pay, because jobs have vanished, you demand the person pay, or else. And then, you offer to lend the person more money to make the payments. Insanity, my friends. There’s not enough GDP on the planet to pay these debts. As a check ask if YOU can pay your debts off immediately. We are witnessing banking and governmental insanity exposed. And it is too bad that the ignorant Americans who chide on this blog can clog up the Internet with their utterly stupid, uninformed, childish comments.
    We clearly need the draft, to get our stupid American male-children off the blogs. When they return to real life, after actually experiencing reality, I’d bet they will be smarter, or dead, which would be fine in either case. I’m sick of stupid, uneducated American men, young or old. Take the pipe, all of you, please.

  90. Confusionism September 26, 2011 at 4:29 pm #

    Got a dictionary and I still don’t see it. Please enlighten me.

  91. wagelaborer September 26, 2011 at 5:16 pm #

    To the person who pointed out that if a tree falls in the forest and the media doesn’t cover it, no one else knows it happened-thank you.
    Yes, there are people on Wall Street, and on LaSalle Street in Chicago, and there are people working for peace and for the environment and for monetary reform.
    The Green Party still exists. I know because I am out there collecting signatures and passing out leaflets and talking to everyone I can.
    Can anyone really think that money and media don’t make a difference? When millions of dollars go to organize the angry doofuses of America, and the media covers their every burp, that this somehow makes the right wingers more organized than the left?
    No, you won’t see progressives out fighting with guns and willing to take 50,000 dead to win. That’s just stupid. We’re against war and violence and murder.
    We aren’t stockpiling weapons and food because we think that if we cooperate with each other, we can provide a decent, sustainable way of life for everyone.
    And the ruling class is no way going to not pay the army and the police. Check out what is happening to the kids on Wall Street.
    Armed thugs, well-paid, are attacking and arresting the kids who are demanding that Wall Street bankers pay their share of taxes.
    Why aren’t the police arresting the bankers? Who have stolen pensions, gambled with people’s money, thrown people out of their houses, speculated on food, causing millions to go hungry? Yeah, why not?
    Do you think that is a stupid question? Then you realize who the police and the army serve.
    Ghandi and Martin Luther King, Jr. would have gotten no where without an audience, provided by the media, as pointed out by Arundhati Roy.
    http://wagelaborer.blogspot.com/2010/06/if-peasant-dies-in-forest-does-it-make.html

  92. wagelaborer September 26, 2011 at 5:19 pm #

    By the way, confidence is not an indispensable resource, except for enabling the Wall Street gambling scam to continue.
    We need sunlight, water, and soil.
    The capitalists are busily destroying and/or controlling at least two of those.

  93. wagelaborer September 26, 2011 at 5:20 pm #

    Here’s a direct link to Ms. Roy-
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnTS9gHCZoI

  94. trippticket September 26, 2011 at 5:20 pm #

    While some of you jokers were praying for salvation, I spent the weekend building a mobile triplex for 3 new, and very large, meat rabbit does we picked up at auction Saturday. One of them arrived quite pregnant, a second most likely impregnated by the male companion with whom she arrived, and the third ready to go as soon I move her to it. Should be swimming in all-but-free (and very delicious, if you haven’t tried it) meat by New Year.
    If your piety at the temple can top that I’d be surprised.
    Happy transition, dear friends!

  95. wagelaborer September 26, 2011 at 5:29 pm #

    People here point out week after week that there is no way that these trillion dollar debts can be paid off, especially by impoverished workers.
    That is very true. However, the ruling class will take as much as they can in payment.
    It’s like the Mafia breaking your fingers and
    then your legs before they actually kill you.
    There is a lot of public wealth left in the world. Max Kaiser sat in a hotel in Greece and listened to Goldman Sachs employees discuss how they were going to take Greece’s public wealth.
    Here in the US, they are going after public lands, lands that were to be preserved for future generations, and public pensions that were to be used to make old age a time of carefree rest.
    And, as George Carlin said, they’re going to get them. (Google it, I’m afraid of posting more links!)
    Right wingers don’t care about public wealth, or public lands. They think that they can sit on their acreage with their guns and protect their private land from the greedy.
    Hah! Look at Camp Bondsteel in Kosovo. The US is sitting on prime farmland that it simply took from its rightful owner. And they threw thousands of people off of Diego Garcia so that they could build a base there.
    Don’t think that they won’t do it to you.

  96. Widespreadpanic7 September 26, 2011 at 5:56 pm #

    I cannot get Jim’s idea of a ‘progressive tea party’ out of my head. Who would be in it? What would be its symbols? For example, at tea party rallies you see many American Flags, Betsy Ross Flags, and that flag with the coiled snake that says ‘Don’t tread on me’. What kind of flag would the ‘progressive tea party’ fly? Soviet hammer & Sickle? Palestinian? African National with a raised black fist gripping a Kalishnikov rifle? or the multi-coloured ‘Gay International’ flag?
    I would say the gay national flag, held tight by a NAMBLA member leading the demonstration, followed up by every underground crank organization, anarchists, sexual deviants, public sector unions, minority rights schemers, 911 conspiracy theorists, communists, illegals, haters of all stripes … every disaffected, miserable, revenge seeking, envious son of a bitch in North America … that’s you ‘progressive tea party’ on the march, burning down the state capitol.
    –WideSpreadPanic
    Key Largo

  97. wagelaborer September 26, 2011 at 6:09 pm #

    Google pictures of anti-Iraq invasion protests, anti-globalization protests, or the current occupation of Wall Street, to replace the fantasy pictures in your head.
    Hundreds of thousands of people, out to make their peaceful, cooperative visions known.
    You haven’t seen any pictures, I guess. That is because the corporate media doesn’t cover progressive marches.

  98. wagelaborer September 26, 2011 at 6:12 pm #

    One time I decided to do the environmentally correct thing and eat an Asian carp.
    So I went to the grocery store and asked the fish man for one. He looked at me as if I were crazy, and told me to get a boat and go to the Mississippi River, and one would jump in.
    They didn’t sell them in the store.

  99. wagelaborer September 26, 2011 at 6:24 pm #

    You’re right, Vlad. Rightists are willing to help their neighbor, or their family, if they know that their neighbor is in trouble, or they have the means to help their family.
    Newsweek printed a picture of a toddler, covered with her parents’s blood, screaming in fear, after US soldiers blew her family away at a checkpoint.
    Thousands of people offered to take the new orphan, no doubt patting themselves on their self-righeous backs, telling themselves how very kindly americans are.
    But there are millions of Iraqi orphans, and most don’t make the news. So, screw them, says Julietta, whose sons no doubt contributed to the widow and orphan gluts in Iraq and elsewhere.
    There are 300 million of us, and most of us don’t care to actually always be on call to put out fires, or give our neighbors stuff. For instance, I was quite worried about my neighbor burning down my barn, using my electricity.
    Luckily, there was some sort of public program that helped him turn his electricity back on. I’m happy to have paid whatever small amount I contributed, rather than have a 300 foot cord snaking across my property to his.
    That’s the difference between right and left. Both of us are willing to help the less fortunate, but we progressives are able to conceptualize untelevised people and to be willing to help even those who don’t make it on the news.

  100. wagelaborer September 26, 2011 at 6:34 pm #

    There was an interesting article in the Cape Cod Times when I was there, and I copied the statistics.
    I can’t remember them all now, since I gave the piece of paper to one of the kids in the Chicago occupation, but it was showing income distribution in the USA.
    If there were 100 people in the US, and our total GDP was $100, then the 40 lowest paid would get 20 cents total, or 1/2 a cent apiece.
    That I remember very clearly. And the top one person would get $34 and change.
    The ones in between I can’t remember, but I thought that it was a good way to show the inequality in America.
    I hope that the kid will share the information with others.

  101. wagelaborer September 26, 2011 at 6:41 pm #

    On the question of what happened to the left in this country.
    Today, my husband and I talked about capital punishment on our radio show, because Georgia just executed an innocent man.
    I pointed out that the US killed the Rosenbergs in the 50s, making orphans out of their two little boys.
    The controversy still rages about whether they were innocent or not, but that is decidedly besides the point.
    Don’t you know that every young Communist woman looked at her babies, and told her husband that there was no way they were going to continue beating their heads against the wall of capitalist propaganda, and take the chance of the government killing them and leaving their children orphans!
    That on top of the better pay that workers were getting in the 50s, and the oppression and job losses that commies got, made it too much of a life ruiner to continue to try to educate Americans.

  102. lbendet September 26, 2011 at 7:03 pm #

    Wage,
    The sad part about the right is they think they won’t be paying taxes. Herman Cain is doing well pushing his 999 tax plan. A flat tax plan, 9% business flat tax, 9% Individual tax and 9% National sales tax. He does away with inheritance taxes.
    It all sounds so good until you consider that without pooled wealth, everything is a la carte and privatized. Boy will everything be expensive. Not to mention that we will be selling off our infrastructure to more unfriendly foreign nationals in order to pay to run the country.
    I always say be careful what you wish for…
    I’ll just bet there are many out there who say they want this who will be wishing they didn’t when they get the bill.

  103. newworld September 26, 2011 at 7:03 pm #

    Why the Left has no tea party” Simple, because the Left is comprised of cults rigidly segregated.
    All these cults are now fighting for the last tax dollar, and it is going to get ugly.

  104. ozone September 26, 2011 at 7:10 pm #

    Key Largo, eh? LOL
    That’s just fuckin’ perfect!
    A guy from future Waterworld telling the rest of us “how it really is”.
    Have ‘nother Big Gulp o’ rum, and keep posting! I enjoy seeing how fools operate; it’s instructive (even though you’re giving away all your cult “secrets”, oh my). The ridge runners will be ready for you, should you make it this far. (Highly doubtful.)
    Too comical for further comment!

  105. wagelaborer September 26, 2011 at 7:14 pm #

    Yeah, the 40% of Americans making 1/2 of a cent, will have to pay 9% of that, plus save for their own retirement, their kids’s schools, and so on.
    Then, when they are unable to do so, smug, self-righteous right-wingers will tell them they are bad money managers.
    At least they won’t have to pay for libraries, or public parks. Those will be long gone.

  106. lbendet September 26, 2011 at 7:25 pm #

    Just found something from Thom Hartmann:
    [re: Gov. Rick Scott
    “We’ve had plenty of success so far…we have 15,000 less government jobs in the state of Florida.” Upon hearing that – his audience cheered – which isn’t too big of a surprise since Republicans have cheered executions, sick people dying, and homophobia – why not cheer job losses too. Then Scott repeated the same right-wing talking point that “government doesn’t create jobs.”
    Since President Obama took office – more than half a million government workers have been laid off in mostly Republican states – which is the real reason why our nation’s unemployment rate is still above 9%.]

  107. progress2conserve September 26, 2011 at 7:28 pm #

    I just have to try to pause this comment thread for a split-second and pay tribute to the creativity of our host.
    “…a freaky-deaky moment and it will be way worse than Lehman was. When it happens, what seemed financial will instantly go political. The rage of millions will shred the trappings of fakery, and for a while things will seem too real. The world has no idea how all this might resolve.” -jhk-
    Wow! “what seemed financial will instantly go political…”
    It does appear that the “money-boys” are pushing the envelope just as far as they can – exactly how far down the road of privatizing profit and making risk public – CAN THEY GO??
    ============
    And creativity – – put the phrase “a freaky-deaky moment” in quotation marks and GOOGLE it. As of a few minutes ago you will get only 36 total hits.
    And several of those hits will return only onto today’s JHK missive. I’m going to go back and take a look at a couple of those hits – blogs and things of which I do not believe I have yet heard.
    Perhaps a nice snapshot of the “peak everything” and “survive everything” communities on-line.
    Pretty good comments on CFN so far today!
    ====================
    This internet is still a powerful thing.
    Do those Wall Street protesters have a webpage?
    Do they have a vision statement and a mission statement? This is today’s America, after all.
    Marketing counts – even among those who hate it.

  108. DavidinLosAngeles September 26, 2011 at 7:46 pm #

    I returned from Spain four days ago, I was there for two weeks. The general unemployment rate is 23%, for under-30s it is 40%. Yes, everyone seems to be waiting to see what will happen with Greece. I saw lots of worried people, especially among the elderly. I guess most of the under 30 group was out spray painting graffiti, which rivals anything you’d see in East L.A. Graffiti blankets the country. I was part of an American/Australian tour group. No one in the group spent money or shopped, so so much for tourists stimulating the economy there. The people in Spain are very beautiful, and the children are wonderful. The kids are well-groomed, well-dressed and polite. And HAPPY. That’s good to see. So unlike the hyperactive, whining, scraggly American rugrats you see in Los Angeles. Everyone in Spain minds their own business when they go out in public, there wasn’t much attitude to speak of, unlike France or England. Or the U.S. Upon my return to L.A. I’m struck by how snarky people are here. The staring, the sneering, the attitude, the road rage. It’s really unpleasant and unhealthy. However, I must say that Los Angeles does have excellent food, it at least has that going for it. L.A. really is a culinary mecca of sorts, so it’s good to have a wide variety of food and restaurants to choose from, including fresh produce and farmer’s markets. If you have any desire to travel I’d do it now….while you can. However, it’s best to save your money and conserve energy. You all know this.

  109. JulettaofOhio September 26, 2011 at 8:07 pm #

    far·ci·cal (färs-kl)
    adj.
    1. Of or relating to farce.
    2.
    a. Resembling a farce; ludicrous.
    b. Ridiculously clumsy; absurd.
    ——————————————————————————–
    farci·cali·ty (-kl-t), farci·cal·ness n.
    farci·cal·ly adv.
    From an online dictionary since I’m on the computer. And, my bad, it came out with a typo in that I omitted a “c”. You had your own typo, but I knew what you meant. Most literate people can make a good guess, even when the finger slips.

  110. JulettaofOhio September 26, 2011 at 8:16 pm #

    Thanks! I’m not used to courtesy since I’m an arch-conservative on a relatively liberal blog.
    What is the deal with NASCAR? I don’t follow it, but I don’t care if other people do. If it’s a matter of wasting gasoline, it can’t add up to the waste of even one of the Obamas’ massive air lift vacations. I also don’t bowl, but don’t care if others do, and I don’t golf, but don’t care if my husband and others want to go.
    I find this blog fascinating and would like to know the meaning behind the names of the posters. I was a “lurker” for quite awhile, trying to get the feel of everything, and have found that trying to join in is like trying to make friends in small-town Ohio or Tennessee. Totally impossible! The left certainly doesn’t care for a different point of view. On the other hand, JHK is a gifted writer as are many of the posters.

  111. JulettaofOhio September 26, 2011 at 8:21 pm #

    I totally agree that the Republicans are as evil and corrupt as the Democrats, which is why we are Independents, for what that’s worth. This is going to be wildly unpopular, but I think Rush is brilliant and my main argument with him is that he is totally in the pocket of the Republican party. Everyone seems to be in someone’s pocket except those of us working independently to just survive.

  112. BeantownBill September 26, 2011 at 8:30 pm #

    I’m not sure what “off the grid” means. It must be different things to different people. To me, it means no government or government agency can find me.
    While it’s nice to try to be off the grid, those that aren’t and complain about things have a right to their own opinions.

  113. ak September 26, 2011 at 8:30 pm #

    Wage, reading your $100 divided analogy I remembered a comment at Jim Sinclair’s site a week or so ago:

    Here is why S&P downgraded the US credit rating.
    • U.S. Tax revenue: $2,170,000,000,000
    • Fed budget: $3,820,000,000,000
    • New debt: $ 1,650,000,000,000
    • National debt: $14,271,000,000,000
    • Recent budget cut: $ 38,500,000,000
    Now let’s remove 8 zeros and pretend it’s a household budget.
    • Annual family income: $21,700
    • Money the family spent: $38,200
    • New debt on the credit card: $16,500
    • Outstanding balance on the credit card: $142,710
    • Total budget cuts: $385
    

    BTW, I ended IP-banned last week for no apparent reason (I tried to repost what was held up), and I got this on the whole site:

    Forbidden
    You don't have permission to access /blog/2011/09/the-rainmakers.html on this server.
    Additionally, a 403 Forbidden error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request.
    Apache/2.0.63 (Unix) mod_ssl/2.0.63 OpenSSL/0.9.8e-fips-rhel5 DAV/2 mod_auth_passthrough/2.1 mod_bwlimited/1.4 FrontPage/5.0.2.2635 Server at kunstler.com Port 80
    

    Mr DC intervened on my behalf, and it’s all good!

  114. jerry September 26, 2011 at 8:32 pm #

    Where are the baton carriers for a People’s Progressive Movement? I totally agree. Why isn’t Russ Feingold, or Alan Grayson rushing down to the Wall Street protests encouraging a nationwide street movement protesting the criminal activity of the largest banksta syndicate?
    There needs to be well-known forces pushing this forward.
    The young people protesting on Wall Street could be the beginning of an Autumn Revolution right here in this country!!!
    http://eye-on-washington.blogspot.com

  115. Widespreadpanic7 September 26, 2011 at 8:38 pm #

    Come on now, Mr. Ozone, should The Floods come again you Yankees (if you are a Yankee. I assume you are!) will welcome us with open arms. Just like we welcome you all each winter.
    Speaking of floods, I understand the super Yankee state of Vermont got hit pretty bad this late summer, and it ain’t been cleaned up yet.
    I wish you all the best up there.
    Oh, and JulliettaofOhio, my pleasure.
    –WideSpreadPanic

  116. sevenmmm September 26, 2011 at 8:43 pm #

    How dare you insult the Jesus Jokers. They are the only ones left that can summon the miracle worker back to make all of us more oil.

  117. ken September 26, 2011 at 8:43 pm #

    Why would anybody “step up and take the baton”?
    The effect would be the same as ranting against Las Vegas on the Strip. Water? Environment? Sprawl? Game? “Sorry Sir, we’re having a party here. Could you please move out!”
    Our “world” is the result of decisions taken long, long ago. We cannot undo them, and even if we could, it would not cancel the effect of these decisions. It may not even change to outcome.
    The fact anyway is that the vast majority of the people want nothing to do with this line of thought. The heroes of our time are entertainers, not philosophers and entrenched interests are such that dissenting voices can easily be snuffed out. There is, at least for now, no acceptable alternative than the inviable one we are in. We can change our neighborhoods to make them more livable but we cannot change our whole economic system; it must fail first. Then, maybe new ideas will be proposed and more importantly, will be considered.

  118. anti soak September 26, 2011 at 8:43 pm #

    I pointed out that the US killed the Rosenbergs in the 50s, making orphans out of their two little boys.
    And the Facts point out that they were spies.
    At the age of 92 their co spy admitted what we all knew all along.

  119. anti soak September 26, 2011 at 8:49 pm #

    ‘angry, ignorant’
    You wish death on young people and point your finger at ‘Them’, the ‘angry, ignorant’.
    Gawd what a FkTard.

  120. anti soak September 26, 2011 at 8:55 pm #

    25% of GDP is Govt spending, In the OC a lifeguard can make 200K a year.
    ‘Obama took office – more than half a million government workers have been laid off in mostly Republican states – which is the real reason why our nation’s unemployment rate is still above 9%.’
    Uh No Lbendet, I say higher Unemployment is due to the Jobs Going to China, A policy that Clinton gave us and Bush continued.
    Also Bush gave us the Housing Bubble.
    Obama gave us tarp..the biggest swindle Citizens have seen, so far!

  121. ozone September 26, 2011 at 9:08 pm #

    Ummmm, I have fresh water [time being, too much, in fact] where I live. How ’bout you?
    Pre-industrial, New Englanders could scratch out a “living”. How ’bout your particular area? Piracy, anyone? The dengue will be particularly pleasant! (Believe me, I know whereof I speak.)
    You may want to study up on the Bajau people; emulating their way of life could be a viable alternative to the oil-dependent Delusioland of which you are currently a denizen.
    Good luck, and keep writing those incisive letters that we so look forward to! :o)
    -Your loving, ignorant, backwards-assed Relatives in the unsurvivable Norflands

  122. ozone September 26, 2011 at 9:13 pm #

    Ps. It’s not to say that we won’t get our personal tickets punched by unstoppable feedback loops here ‘neither’… So we must all hang flexible, in any case. (A notorious lack of which is found in RW authoritarian followers.)

  123. ctemple September 26, 2011 at 9:26 pm #

    The left has never been big on tolerating opposing views, in my book, most of this tolerance stuff is a way to disarm the enemy. As far as the names go on here, a fair amount of these people have had a name change two or three times. Why, who knows. Nobody knows what constitues bannng.
    You’re irritated Ma’am at the complaining about Nascar, wait until one of these atheist dickheads compares Jesus with the great pumpkin. That’s annoying with a captial A. And it does no good whatsoever to point out that people have a right to indiviual religous beliefs, they’ll be too busy name calling. Welcome, I wouldn’t try to make sense out of most of these people.

  124. Widespreadpanic7 September 26, 2011 at 9:27 pm #

    Ozone, like I was sayin’ to my cousin just last week, you Yankees have a unique sense of humor.
    –WideSpreadPanic

  125. Buck Stud September 26, 2011 at 9:33 pm #

    The “Progressive Tea Party” is steeping in the ever-simmering waters of post-university betrayal. On the water’s surface, tea leaves appear to float in apathetic indifference. Below the surface, however, tea leaves of a generation betrayed are increasingly sinking into the steaming waters of debt and despair. Their liquified transformation will be bitter, dramatic, scalding. And they will crumple up the contrived anger of the current Tea Party like a peeling Elvis Presley wallpaper rug.

  126. Buck Stud September 26, 2011 at 9:40 pm #

    I wished I could write that you made a great post. Unfortunately, you ignore the fact that the U.S. military budget is equal to, if not greater, that the military budgets of the entire world combined. And still you lament that ‘librul Panetta’ is risking a military coup by castrating defense.
    You are frighteningly out of touch, Sir.

  127. progress2conserve September 26, 2011 at 9:48 pm #

    “post-university betrayal” ??
    OK, Buck – you get BIG points for creativity.
    ZERO hits result from the phrase above – when entered in quotation marks into Google.
    I think you may be on to something with the idea, here – but would you elaborate on this group you just created, and explain how “post-university betrayal” works?
    Like, for example, what age group(s) do you have in mind?
    And is is worse to be betrayed by a university or by a junior college or technical school? (grin)
    Speaking of which – lots of former junior colleges are now 4 year schools, around here.
    and many former 4 year schools now offer numerous post-grad programs.
    Is this sort of “institutional inflation?” common, elsewhere around the country?
    E?

  128. deacon-john September 26, 2011 at 9:59 pm #

    Hi everyone
    Jim asks where is the left wing tea party?
    It has begun on Wall Street.
    If you are within distance of NYC come downtown and show your support.
    I wonder – where are the teachers, the un-employed, the under-employed and the struggling masses of NYC?!
    Get the word out – organize and join these young people who know TS is HTF is RIGHT NOW.
    This whole house of cards is ready to fall, we need to support each another and create relationships that can bring hope to those around us.
    Visit the website: https://occupywallst.org/
    Come to Wall St or start a protest in front of your local branch of the criminals where ever you are.
    May God be with all of you,
    Deacon John

  129. Buck Stud September 26, 2011 at 10:12 pm #

    Prog,
    I would say primarily the 20-30 age group deep in student loan debt and with dismal career prospects. Most of these kids believed that a college education was the on-ramp to the American Dream. Increasingly, it is proving to be a dead end road for many. It seems to me, that a generation of college educated coffee-shop workers mired in student loan debt( very difficult to discharge in bankruptcy court) have the potential to at least outstrip the privileged acrimony and fake fury of the current Tea Party.
    By the way, I believe all learning instititions that accept student loan payment should be required to reveal their job placement stats, one way or another. And let parents and kids make an informed economic decision based on something more than the traditional paradigmn, to use Lbendet’s words. But that’s not going to happen because there’s too much to lose. And once again I am struck by the incoherent attenuation of the societal fabric.

  130. CaptSpaulding September 26, 2011 at 10:13 pm #

    You’re right on LBENDET. I agree with you about Naomi Klein, That is one smart woman. Have you read anything else by her?

  131. progress2conserve September 26, 2011 at 10:19 pm #

    “Since President Obama took office – more than half a million government workers have been laid off in mostly Republican states – which is the real reason why our nation’s unemployment rate is still above 9%.” -lbendet-
    Well, Lbend – I don’t know what Obama being pres. has to do with this particular problem – but let’s not worry about that, right now.
    I see both sides of the government employee cutbacks arguments.
    I was a govt. employee for long enough back in the 70’s and 80’s that I WELL remember the tradeoffs involved. At the local and state level – at least in Georgia – you accepted lower salary amounts in exchange for better job security and that public employee benefit package.
    And I recognize that public sector salaries are now, VERY often, larger than private sector salaries for positions with comparable requirements. And despite the NOW higher salaries – most govt. workers have retained the job security AND the benefits packages.
    =====================
    And I do appreciate the opening to discuss what is THE most important issue for the future of the US, that being immigration rates.
    I’m very sure that this recent round of government employee layoffs (post Obama, right?) contributes a MINISCULE amount to unemployment numbers – when compared to the amount of LEGAL immigrants admitted to the US every day, month, and year – who also need jobs.
    100,000 legal immigrants per month.
    1,000,000 legal immigrants per year.
    And they are LEGAL. So if/when the breadwinner(s) can’t find a job that pays enough to raise a family above the US poverty level –
    then the whole family can LEGALLY go on AFDC, even as the breadwinner LEGALLY goes on unemployment.
    Lbend, I know you are concerned about unsustainable financial practices –
    Here is another one to consider.

  132. progress2conserve September 26, 2011 at 10:39 pm #

    “And let parents and kids make an informed economic decision based on something more than the traditional paradigmn,” -buckstud-
    100% concur, buck.
    ==================
    For another part of the problem –
    I was talking to a guy over the weekend who does design and sales work – as liason to a German engine manufacturing company.
    He talked about German efficiency and the German work ethic – among several other reasons that Germany is succeeding economically and ahead of the US.
    He hated to admit that the German model of healthcare was less stressful for the average German worker than is the US model – but he knew it, anyway.
    And he REALLY hated to admit that a good system of worker’s rights and union representation and advocacy – contributed to the German successes.
    But he finally did admit it.

  133. Buck Stud September 26, 2011 at 11:04 pm #

    Yikes Prog, where did that n in paradigm come from 🙂
    Interesting that you mention unions. And I must admit that Asoka’s stance on immigration seems to be antithetical to the reality of unions. Perhaps he will chime in. Purportedly, Cesar Chavez was opposed to illegal-immigration and it’s deleterious effects on the Farm Workers Union.
    BTW, I found this to be a very interesting link on philosophy and education:
    http://www.anotherpanacea.com/2010/05/how-to-get-a-philosophical-education-for-free/

  134. greyghost05 September 26, 2011 at 11:08 pm #

    Vlad, you’re on it with the statement about the Birchers. I read a bunch of their stuff back in the 70’s. They were right, it’s just taken 40 years to implement. The Global Economic Collapse predicted in the 1972 book None Dare Call It Conspiracy is todays Global Meltdown. Will the answer be the NWO and a global government ? It beats me. Just have to stay tuned.
    In the meantime get ready for whatever may come your way.

  135. Qshtik September 26, 2011 at 11:11 pm #

    I wished I could write that you made a great post.
    …equal to, if not greater, that the military budgets…
    =================
    Hey, what’s up with the past tense of wish where the present tense belongs? This makes twice in as many days. Is this a suddenly popular regionalism or colloquialism? Or maybe it’s just a test to see if I’m paying attention?
    Also, it’s than not that.

  136. greyghost05 September 26, 2011 at 11:22 pm #

    Buck, on this matter I hope you are right. I certainly don’t want to see something that drastic happen.

  137. Buck Stud September 26, 2011 at 11:23 pm #

    Q,
    Sorry Q, before posting I watched Rick Perry’s debate performance on YouTube and was feeling a bit inspired 😉

  138. Vlad Krandz September 26, 2011 at 11:29 pm #

    Germany finds itself as the Leader of Europe – despite being despised and destroyed in the 20th century. They are amazing. Blood will tell. You have to admit it in the end.
    Because of their ethnic and cultural solidarity they are able to make unons work. It will never be so here. It’s not magic – there are reasons why they can and we cannot.

  139. Vlad Krandz September 26, 2011 at 11:37 pm #

    You are an anamoly: a Communist MidWestern Puritan. You have some old fashioned virtues but they are totally at odds with your Communist Politics. It’s not our job to get you sorted out, those Herculean Labors are your’s alone.
    No one makes more use of sacred sacraficial cows like the Left does. Look at how they are queering our schools by focusing on gay kids getting bullied. Meanwhile Whites are butchered and it hardly makes the local news much less the national.
    Bullying is wrong btw – but it is universal. The people who are making such a big deal about it don’t care about White Kids beaten by Blacks. And they wont care about Hetero kids being harrassed by Gay kids once this movement conquers the mainstream.

  140. BeantownBill September 26, 2011 at 11:52 pm #

    I can’t remember right now what is the total of the US workforce, but the total population is around 310 Million. It doesn’t sound unreasonable to me that the workforce number ought to be around 75-80 million then, does it?
    If this is reasonably accurate, then the 500,000 federal workers laid off would contribute around .6% to the unemployment rate, which is hardly the primary cause for the high numbers of unemployed, which are in the millions.

  141. Widespreadpanic7 September 27, 2011 at 12:24 am #

    Speaking of those kids demonstrating on Wall Street, you’ve got to admire anybody with the you-know-whats to mix it up with the NYPD. Those dudes are tough. They have a Cavalry, and just last nite Commissioner Kelly announced that the department has the capability to shoot down incoming fighter aircraft. Mayor Bloomberg wouldn’t comment specifically, be hinted at even greater capabilities.
    So be careful.
    –WSP

  142. Qshtik September 27, 2011 at 12:24 am #

    Come to Wall St or start a protest in front of your local branch of the criminals where ever you are.
    ============
    Let me go out on a limb right here. The “Occupy Wall Street” protest will die in its sleep and be forgotten before the final game of the World Series.
    I read your entire link (it figures Chomsky would jump on this rickety bandwagon, from a safe distance no doubt) and except for a few words in the opening paragraph there is no statement as to the actual financial crimes the protesters are there to protest. The crimes are apparently so self-evident that they need never be enumerated.
    It is perfectly obvious to me that the purpose of this get-together is to create another “siege of Chicago” to slake the thirst for attention of a new crop of Abbie Hoffmans and Jerry Rubins.
    A young protester was asked by a NY Times reporter why he had traveled to NYC to join the protest (the reporter noted that none of the protesters he spoke to were from NY) and he responded he was there to be part of “making a spectacle.”

  143. rocco September 27, 2011 at 12:27 am #

    Take the baton, the controlling powers run the only newspaper in town and the tv news is run by wham radio which runs Rush, Cavauto, Beck 24 hrs a day.”Several weeks into the new Dark age, life goes on as it always has, oblivious to the passing of the Age of reason. of Socratic thought and Apollonian logic. No one had noticed. But they would. And Soon” Great quote, oh Zeus where are you? Good points JHK but when I ask neighbors to read it, dont worry Perry and Palin will save us all, or we can escape like that new show Terra Nova.

  144. Qshtik September 27, 2011 at 12:30 am #

    Come to Wall St or start a protest in front of your local branch of the criminals where ever you are.
    ============
    Let me go out on a limb right here. The “Occupy Wall Street” protest will die in its sleep and be forgotten before the final game of the World Series.
    I read your entire link (it figures Chomsky would jump on this rickety bandwagon) and except for a few words in the opening paragraph there is no statement as to the actual financial crimes the protesters are there to protest. The crimes are apparently so self-evident that they need never be enumerated.
    It is perfectly obvious to me that the purpose of this get-together is to create another “siege of Chicago” to slake the thirst for attention of a new crop of Abbie Hoffmans and Jerry Rubins.
    When asked by a NY Times reporter why he had traveled to NYC a young protester said he came to be part of “making a spectacle.”

  145. Widespreadpanic7 September 27, 2011 at 12:31 am #

    They also have intelligence officers posted throughout the world, a small Navy & Air Force, and rank & file of 40,000 officers, the size of an Army Division. No, not and organization to be taken lightly.
    –WSP

  146. Qshtik September 27, 2011 at 12:32 am #

    The above is a reply to Deacon-John.

  147. Qshtik September 27, 2011 at 12:45 am #

    Well that does it! If Perry is the responsible party for this deluge 😉 of the past tense of wish I’m voting for Ron Paul.

  148. Vlad Krandz September 27, 2011 at 1:02 am #

    Who ya gonna put your money on? Oceania and Her Sodomite army? Or these guys
    http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90786/7603567.html
    – Men proud of their respective Traditions now allying against the US and the New World Order? Eurasia and East Asia against Oceania: we don’t stand a chance.

  149. anti soak September 27, 2011 at 1:53 am #

    PC…I have a neighbor [Mideast Immigrant] whos TOTALLY working the system…
    Can a disabled person move to US and get ‘money for life’?
    What about an immigrant w/o kids who refuses to work..can he get [?..welfare, aid to the disabled etc]?

  150. anti soak September 27, 2011 at 1:57 am #

    It was not that hard to figure out:
    ALGER HISS
    LEAGUE OF NATIONS
    UN
    In US most imp. City.
    DIPLOMATIC IMMUNITY FER CRAPSAKE
    MORE INTERNATIONALISM
    FOREIGN AID
    Read ‘NONE DARE CALL IT CONSPIRACY’

  151. anti soak September 27, 2011 at 2:03 am #

    This ones for you,,,,,from soviet monica…
    California voters in 1996 approved Proposition 209, which forbids using ethnicity as an element of college admissions decisions. In a legal brief filed recently in support of a federal lawsuit seeking to deem the initiative unconstitutional, Brown cited a 2003 U.S. Supreme Court ruling that found race could be considered in admissions if it did not involve quotas or predetermined weight in decisions.
    Shawn Lewis, president of the Berkeley College Republicans, has insisted that the bake sale will go on as planned in Sproul Plaza — not far from the Associated Students’ phone bank in support of the bill.
    In a statement on his group’s website, Lewis said: “What I have seen and heard … has been far from healthy disagreement or challenging of ideas.
    Instead, I have witnessed the harassment of the creators of the Facebook event, threats to those who plan on participating in the event, and a total mischaracterization of the purpose of the bake sale.”
    Associated Students President Vishalli Loomba said that while debate over the merits of the legislation was welcome, “I think their tactics are inappropriate. There are a lot of other methods.
    This method makes students feel uncomfortable and unwelcome on campus.”
    A Berkeley vice chancellor said the bake sale violated no rules and would be allowed to proceed, with some students planning to hand out “cupcakes of conscience” in counter-protest.
    A spokesman for UC President Mark Yudof, who last year created an advisory council in response to campus incidents that proved offensive or intimidating to minority students,
    said Monday that Berkeley was handling the dust-up “just the way we’d like it to be handled. They listened and turned it into a teaching moment.”

  152. Jill September 27, 2011 at 2:32 am #

    “Intelligence may be a liability under such circumstances.”
    Thank you for a good laugh.
    Philosophically I am of the same mind as Garett Hardin. And I see either common sense or rational thought on either side. And dealing with any governmental agency is liking tangling with the tar baby. So I stay under the radar and get on with survival living, which seems to be the consensus on this blog.
    Jill in Berkeley

  153. MADMAX September 27, 2011 at 3:28 am #

    Got my Dodge Charger all fueled up and ready to go.

  154. ak September 27, 2011 at 3:44 am #
    WAR IS PEACE,
    FREEDOM IS SLAVERY and
    IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
    


    WEALTH IS DEBT

    -AK

  155. ak September 27, 2011 at 4:03 am #

    or vice versa
    things in angle brackets get lost:
    (orwell, nineteen eighty-four)

  156. erikSF99 September 27, 2011 at 4:58 am #

    “Let me go out on a limb right here. The “Occupy Wall Street” protest will die in its sleep and be forgotten before the final game of the World Series”
    I agree with your comment. This seems like an action to relieve pressure. The leader of the group was pushing for “one” statement/demand to be deliver to…TPTB. Was it Reinstate Glass-Steagall? Was it a tax on financial transaction? Was it banning naked short-selling or derivatives? Nyah, it was to ask Obama to form a committee to explore dishonesty and crime on Wall Street.
    They could have demanded that Obama get the comatose Attorney General Eric Holder to actually investigate and prosecute these guys. But the White House is too busy to listen anyway right now because the White House is pressuring the States’ attorneys general to surrender to the plan for the Big Banks to pony up a measly $50 Billion and be freed from prosecution over mortgage fraud.
    Yep, this Wall Street protest is MEANT to be over by the end of the World Series.

  157. erikSF99 September 27, 2011 at 5:04 am #

    “To that end the German government (I think) has issued Tart Cards, er something like that, in which the Lady of the Night in question has to make sure she inputs the card on any working day”
    Well, its not the whole German government but it is for real and is already in place in the former capital, Bonn. Here is a link to an article about it: http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,783438,00.html
    “Fines of up to 100 euros threaten prostitutes who don’t pay up.
    “Prostitution is a legal and taxable trade in Germany, but enforcing taxes among sex workers on the street can be problematic. The city of Bonn has come up with a new solution, though. Prostitutes must now pay a nightly tax to automated ticket machines.
    “The budget is tight in Bonn. So tight, in fact, that city officials instituted a new “sex tax” for prostitution this year. They hoped to raise up to €200,000 per year in additional revenues.
    “Since Monday, freelance sex workers on the city streets have been required to pay €6 per night into the machine, which resembles an automated parking ticket distributor. This machine, however, emits nightly permits to practice prostitution.”

  158. Widespreadpanic7 September 27, 2011 at 6:35 am #

    “Who you gonna put your money on, Oceana and her new sodomite army, or these guys” … Vlad.
    These guys meaning the combined Russian & Red Chinese Armies.
    10 million Strong.
    Against our Regular US Army of 490,000, one that now tolerates (and may soon encourage, who knows) open homosexuality within its ranks.
    Vlad, it sounds to me that you don’t have much faith of the suddenly new model American Army, made up of Queers and the ladies. Do you think the Russians and the Chinese haven’t noticed these new, surprising developments? Their generals have to be shaking in their combat boots.
    –WSP

  159. lbendet September 27, 2011 at 8:04 am #

    In answer to Capt Spaulding.
    Re: Naomi Klein. I really would love to read No Logo. Having been in advertising in the past, the idea of branding has always struck me as a marketing ploy with no substance.
    Speaking of no substance, I remember back in the day when I was involved with anti-war protests, there were many people there who felt strongly about the issues. There were some, however that were doing this for cultural style purposes. There are always in a group of people those who are vapid and can’t articulate the issues, but fill the ranks non-the-less.
    My guess is that between the people demonstrating in Wisc. fighting for unions and those who are waking up to how impossible it is to live here anymore, there will be momentum for more. It will build slowly and there may be a coming together of grass roots types from right and left who can’t continue functioning in this country. It will boil down to that.
    When you’ve got nothing you’ve got nothing to lose.

  160. lbendet September 27, 2011 at 8:09 am #

    Re, the Chinese and Russians reaction to gays in the US military.
    Do you know what the policy is with regard to gays in their military?
    Also don’t you think they’ve been happy to see us stuck in quagmires, spending ourselves silly over non-ending wars? They’re sitting on the sidelines, building strength and not spending down.
    I would say the gay issue which is there whether you discuss it or not, is less destructive to our military than the privatized contractors eating through the tax-payer dollars. I believe Israel has an open gay policy, but haven’t delved into that.

  161. lbendet September 27, 2011 at 8:15 am #

    I am not saying that Obama is to blame for all those govt. layoffs, but I do think the Republicans have been following through with the agenda of shrinking govt. and privatizing everything they can.
    They talk a good story about unemployment, while adding to the ranks of the unemployed with one plan, and one plan only. Lower taxes on the “job creators”. Flatten taxes in general.
    GE is my favorite case in point. They [aid 0 taxes last year and are investing altogether $2 Billion on a new x-ray division in China.
    Yep, that’s the ticket…job creators, just not here!

  162. newworld September 27, 2011 at 9:23 am #

    Obama has just officially destroyed the country with his “Operation Vote.”
    Campus race (hate whitey) politics taken to the presidential level is a huge mistake, unless you wish to destroy the world’s last superpower and destroy the value of the world’s reserve currency.
    Jim you might be a leftist but I think of you as a fairly clear thinker, so what is it do you or your family and extended family have a short position?
    Its one thing to brainwash some kid on campus so they waste their life in a cult for the “D” party but to tell the world we are one step from open violent revolution is another.

  163. lbendet September 27, 2011 at 9:45 am #

    N,
    There’s plenty of cult on all sides to go around.
    There’s the cult of privatization for profit too.
    There are few discussions that really describe the issues properly and just attacking one side or the other doesn’t scratch the surface.
    Globalism and no regulations will not help the American people and both parties subscribe to this destructive system.
    Who is brainwashed? Does the ideology that globalism raises all ships compute with you? (Clinton globalism) Isn’t it just a spin to make the fetid look like diamonds? And if I say they are diamonds you will see diamonds, cause I said so with conviction.
    If you want logic you have to admit that true free market ideology is no different from any other ism and/or cult.
    Is the free market god? Does it never make mistakes? Does no regulations knock out all the labor laws that built the middle class of the 20th century?
    Isn’t it really an entity comprised of fallible imperfect critters, also known as human beings?

  164. Buck Stud September 27, 2011 at 10:19 am #

    Vlad,
    Do you really think those two look like they trust each other? A good British provocateur could turn that scene into a Hatfield and McCoy brawl in no time flat.

  165. asoka. September 27, 2011 at 10:32 am #

    ProCon, who says he is not racist, said:

    1,000,000 legal immigrants per year. And they are LEGAL.

    And one million is a decrease from previous years. From the Dept. of Homeland Security:
    1989 … 1,090,172
    1990 … 1,535,872
    1991 … 1,826,595
    2001 … 1,058,902
    2002 … 1,059,356
    2005 … 1,122,257
    2006 … 1,266,129
    2007 … 1,052,415
    2008 … 1,107,126
    2009 … 1,130,818
    2010 … 1,042,625
    One million LEGAL immigrants does not seem out of line. It is DECREASED from previous years.
    I would like to see it increased to more than one million, considering how much immigrants contribute to the USA.
    I would also like an immediate blanket amnesty of all undocumented workers.
    I take this opportunity to intentionally, consciously, and publicly apologize to ProCon for calling him a racist.
    ProCon has disavowed the label of racist. I feel badly for having repeatedly accused him of racism for his association with racists like John Stanton and organizations qualified by SPLC as “hate groups.” I honor ProCon’s word and trust that he is not a racist.
    With regard to an organization, I recommend ACLU or SPLC. They respect immigrants and recognize how much immigrants contribute to the USA.

  166. ccm989 September 27, 2011 at 10:46 am #

    Maybe the left already has an anti-Tea Party movement going and everyone has just failed to recognize it. Its the Occupy Wall Street bunch — disorganized and multi grouped like the Tea Baggers but without the FOX News promotion and the Koch Brothers mega bucks. The Vietnam protest was largely a youth movement until other people started joining in so was Civil Rights movement. All young people. Young idealists v. old greedy baggers.
    Occupy Wall Street is now in its second week. After those young women were pepper sprayed, its starting to get attention and sympathy (especially in light of the fact that one of those girls was deaf). Michael Moore (documentary maker) has now jumped on the band wagon — http://www.washingtonpost.com/entertainment/occupy-wall-street-protesters-get-boost-from-filmmaker-michael-moore/2011/09/26/gIQAaExG0K_story.html

  167. asoka. September 27, 2011 at 10:46 am #

    One more thing related to ProCon’s whining about immigrants and jobs.
    U.S. businesses posted 3.2 million job openings in July, a 13.3% year-over-year increase and the highest number of job openings posted since August 2008.
    You probably will not hear that on FoxNews. All you will hear about is unemployment, not about 3.2 million job openings.
    By the way, the number of immigrants arriving did not increase by 13.3% during the past year.
    Crying “the immigrants are taking our jobs!” is a red herring.
    But it does put ProCon is solid agreement with Michelle Bachman regarding immigration. You supporting Michelle, ProCon?

  168. lbendet September 27, 2011 at 10:47 am #

    Case in point for extremist on the left.
    How do you know how many illegals are getting into this country every day through our porous borders?
    It’s not good for anybody but the “job creators” who want to pay slave wages.
    Why do you think there’s anything good about undocumented workers and drug and weapons underground trade?
    At a certain point it is a squandering of our resources while the elite global business leadership syphon money out of our borders by the trillions.
    ps we’re cranking out more money to save the European banks–keep that market going at all costs.

  169. Adam Eran September 27, 2011 at 10:50 am #

    A little distressing to see you’re buying the meme that (heavens to betsy!) “We’re running out of money.”
    Most modern currencies, the dollar and the euro included, are not backed by any commodity. Therefore the notion that we can “run out” is on par with telling a scorekeeper at a sporting event they can “run out” of points. It is Alice-in-Wonderland level absurdity.
    But why is this widely promoted absurdity in existence? So the oligarchs can start dismantling the public realm. Rather than handle this by issuing more points, er, I mean euros or dollars, they’re artificially throttling economies, and threatening grandma’s pension to boot.
    As Michael Hudson says, this is the financial equivalent of warfare. The takeover of the public realm in Greece would include mortgaging the Parthenon, the ports, etc. Imagine if Finland has to foreclose!…
    Back in the U.S. the “debt crisis” appears to be the threat that had Obama abandon, at least for a moment, the crown jewels of the Democrats’ historical accomplishment — Social Security and Medicare.
    But the Fed issued (out of nothing) $13 – $29 trillion to bail out banks and various other institutions caught in the sub-prime mortgage meltdown. Why can’t they issue a few trillions more rather than cut back revenue sharing and social safety net programs?
    Answer: Because the point of this is to dismantle those programs.
    As for your question about where are the aggressive people on the left: Labor, not liberals, is the essential component of this answer to the oligarchs. So far labor has only made threatening noises to Obama.

  170. The Anti-Gnostic September 27, 2011 at 11:36 am #

    Excuse me, progressives, but just what is Labor going to do when the multicultural State can import one million compliant, passive Third Worlders every single year to pick cotton? Do the progressives think there’s going to be a ‘living wage’ offered when manufacturing can be off-shored to the teeming masses of Asia, and when the teeming masses of Meso-America can be brought here?
    Just how ‘green’ do you think the US will ever get once we move half the populace of Liberia, Haiti, Egypt, Mexico and Guatemala here?
    All those utopian social engineering schemes and Wilsonian crusades–you do know what pays for them don’t you? The Fed and its network of primary dealers, ya stupid hippies. OccupyWallStreet, indeed.
    How many urban hipsters out there are starting families and instructing them in the Christian Faith so they have trust in something other than the corrupt and doomed social democratic State?
    Who’s going to do the real organizing when TSHTF–SWPL faggots who don’t even put air in their own tires, or Scots-Irish rednecks who can rebuild engines and were hunting and field-dressing game by their 15th birthday?
    I actually thought about voting Green once. Then I took a look at their gnostic, anti-white, anti-hetero platform and thought differently of it.
    The Left created this totalitarian monster and has lovingly nurtured it at every step. As far as I’m concerned they can all go down with it.

  171. asoka. September 27, 2011 at 11:49 am #

    Anti-Gnostic said:

    The Left created this totalitarian monster and has lovingly nurtured it at every step. As far as I’m concerned they can all go down with it.

    Welcome to CFN!
    You will fit in perfectly as a hyperbolic doomster drama queen.

  172. Widespreadpanic7 September 27, 2011 at 11:52 am #

    Phew, AntiAgnostic, that’s one hard-hittin’ post! Libs take note. Try to top that.
    Those Noam Chomsky protests on Wall Street haven’t hurt business any: The Dow is up 500 points in the past 2 days.
    All those debt problems in Europe, which seemed so daunting on Monday, must have been solved.
    WSP

  173. Buck Stud September 27, 2011 at 11:54 am #

    ” Crying “the immigrants are taking our jobs!” is a red herring.”
    Asoka, I agree that the “immigrant taking our jobs” lament is a red herring. But isn’t the more relevant issue – and since Prog mentioned worker unions- immigrants lowering wages?
    In fact, wages for the working man, if not company owners, in the building trade industry have been a race to the bottom because of “undocumented workers.” This is simply indisputable. And many otherwise conscientious contractors are forced to hire undocumented workers in order to be competitive in the bidding process. Left behind in this negative feedback loop is the legal documented worker such as the honorable brick mason whose financial life has been shattered because he is forced to take eight or ten dollars an hour less – or else. Also gone are the company provided benefits that once upon a time provided a bit of security.
    So the dispossessed American construction worker sits at the kitchen table urging his sons and daughters to take a large detour away from the world of “Made By Hand”. He has been there, done that. “Getting your back” into a living is even more financially perilous than going deep into student loan debt over the long haul because there is simply no end to the supply of undocumented labor willing to work for quite a few dollars less. Today’s undocumented Mexican worker is tomorrow’s displaced laborer sitting on the sidelines.
    The fraying continues with all sides holding a knife. One can’t be Michael Moore and Ronald Reagan all at the same time. Hard choices have to be made.

  174. ozone September 27, 2011 at 12:26 pm #

    From the latest at The Automatic Earth:
    “Greek banks are in trouble because they hold a lot of Greek sovereign debt. French banks are in trouble because they hold a lot of Greek sovereign debt AND of Greek bank debt. Morgan Stanley will certainly soon be in trouble because it is heavily involved in French banks. Other Wall Street banks will be because of their dealings with Morgan Stanley.
    The whole system is so tightly interconnected that you would have to bail out everyone’s debt. But that is not possible. There’s too much of it. That fact is generally recognized. But not publicly. In public, we hear fear-mongering about bank runs, which can, so we are told, be prevented with more of your money. But this is not true. They can be postponed, not prevented. And postponing them comes at a huge and entirely futile cost to our children.”
    It’s all of a piece, of course. Wealth buys political power; political power protects [and expands] wealth/the wealthy.
    …And idiots dependent on energy-intensive tourist “economies” believe this scheme can go on indefinitely. (Which they MUST believe, in order to also believe that they will [one great and glorious day] become one of those select, wealthy few. It’s truly an endless source of wonder.
    (Adam Eran laid it out quite nicely, just above. The fraud of creating “money” out of thin air in order to thieve actual physical wealth, is a finely-honed “confidence” game. Remember the “markets”? It’s all about “confidence”, ain’t it? Every day, it gets more and more absurd, and I’m more disposed to laughter.)

  175. Widespreadpanic7 September 27, 2011 at 12:32 pm #

    Ozone,
    Well put, my friend.
    –WSP

  176. Vlad Krandz September 27, 2011 at 12:52 pm #

    Free speech and demonstration triumphs in Marxist Berkeley. The Leftists are true to their old, long forgotten Puritan Roots. The Puritans came to America seeking Religious Freedom – for themselves. They dreamed of a City on a Hill, a New Jerusalem, a Church Without Sinners. None of this is authentic Christianity but at least they had the grace to be inconsistent. They knew they were sinners and corrupt despite their Dreams.
    Their Leftist Descendants have no such qualms: they really believe they are All Good and can create Utopia if they can just silence or or get rid of those evil Conservatives. The psycho-logic is inevitable – if they are Good anyone who disagrees with them HAS to be Evil They have no idea that what they want is impossible and that Utopia means No Where.

  177. wagelaborer September 27, 2011 at 1:34 pm #

    You thank one of your many fascist fellow-travelers on this blog at the same time you pull the usual self-pitying, persecuted stance of the right wing majority. Poor you! Stuck on a blog with some liberal voices to counter the mainstream right wing propaganda.
    Only your limited cognition prevents cognitive dissonance, I guess.

  178. wagelaborer September 27, 2011 at 1:39 pm #

    I work in the ER, remember?
    I would know if white kids were being beaten by blacks. Yes, occasionally it happens.
    But your lurid vision of blacks dominating whites is ridiculous.
    There are different groups in high school, just like when you were a young nazi.
    The nerds, the jocks, the stoners, the blacks, the rednecks, etc.
    Mostly they hang out with their own groups.

  179. wagelaborer September 27, 2011 at 1:43 pm #

    Thanks for pointing out that if they can create trillions out of thin air for Wall Street, they can certainly create billions for the public good, including increasing Social Security payments.
    I would encourage everyone to listen to Michael Hudson, a voice of sanity crying out in the wilderness.

  180. daofirry2 September 27, 2011 at 1:44 pm #

    there’s a story on CNN Money today, about Papandreou reassuring investors that Greece will get its affairs in order. Right next to that story, there is a clickable box for a Halloween feature about how to survive a zombie apocalypse.
    Coincidence? I think not!

  181. wagelaborer September 27, 2011 at 1:48 pm #

    You need to listen to the Michael Hudson talk that someone upthread linked to.
    He points out different reasons that may explain why Germany is prospering. Hint: it’s not their superior Teutonic genes.

  182. Qshtik September 27, 2011 at 1:52 pm #

    undocumented labor willing to work for quite a few dollars less
    =============
    I “wished” to Christ everybody would STOP using this fucking euphemism undocumented and start calling a spade a spade. They’re ILLEGAL immigrants.

  183. wagelaborer September 27, 2011 at 2:00 pm #

    To those who disparage those who are on Wall Street protesting the excesses of financial capital, because they believe that capitalism is the ultimate expression of human nature –
    Capitalism has only been around for a couple of hundred years, and has been fought by decent people the entire time. The last 30 years have seen most of the planet’s natural wealth destroyed by a fully impowered capitalism, with millions of people killed in the wake, either by direct murder or by starvation after they were thrown from their lands.
    They are now going for all of it, and some of us think that that is a very bad idea.
    Already the oceans are depleted of large fish, and threatened by acid rain, the forests have largely been cut down, our topsoil is depleted, our water is polluted, and our climate is heating up.
    So they’re going for the Artic now, and Canadian forests and fracking.
    They are psycopaths, who care nothing for anything but profits, and they must be stopped.

  184. Widespreadpanic7 September 27, 2011 at 2:01 pm #

    Q, speaking of the World Series, WhoDoYaGot? Yanks vs. Phils? That leaves you smack dab in-the-middle.
    –WSP

  185. scarlet runner September 27, 2011 at 2:05 pm #

    The poor carp. It has a poor reputation. It isn’t really pretty. It infests our waterways, but maybe it can feed a lot of people.
    http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2011/sep/22/us-asian-carp-hunger/

  186. Widespreadpanic7 September 27, 2011 at 2:09 pm #

    The worst environmental degradation occurs in Communist/Socialist countries, where there are no limits nor checks and balances. Large parts of the former Soviet Union are still toxic and no go; the air in China is unbreathable, the water poison, the food tainted.
    –WSP

  187. ctemple September 27, 2011 at 2:13 pm #

    Your nitpicking was actually right in this instance, I believe, keep it up.
    Caleb Temple

  188. The Anti-Gnostic September 27, 2011 at 2:15 pm #

    It’s pretty clear the Left has no coherent arguments and no idea what to do as their crackpot ‘diversity’ and Keynesian schemes run their inevitable awful course.
    So fuss and fume away, lefties. You persecuted firearms ownership, embraced the secular State and derided the Church and hetero-normative families, threw your own kinsmen under the bus to burnish your ‘anti-racist’ (i.e., anti-white) credentials, and now find yourselves on the wrong side of history as the phony, debt-based monetary system that was holding up your social democratic Utopia starts to collapse.
    I suggest moving to Canada. The oil shale and timber should keep the Ponzi schemes going in Quebec, the GTA and Vancouver for a few more years at least. Then you can move out west once those provinces tell the human zoos back east that they’re leaving.

  189. anti soak September 27, 2011 at 2:21 pm #

    “Capitalism has only been around for a couple of hundred years, and has been fought by decent people the entire time”
    ONLY 200 YEARS??? WHERES THERE ARE COINS THERES
    CAPITALISM, INCLUDING IN CUBA TODAY
    And In Juliettas post you commented on I read no self pity, she saves that role for you!

  190. rippedthunder September 27, 2011 at 2:44 pm #

    Hello Wage, I am pretty sure you can put me in your 3rd group, and you are right, we pretty much just hung out together. I never really got into the high school sports, prom, who is who bullshit. I am pretty sure I was the inspiration behind Spicoli in “Fast Times”.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9huSs0g67c
    Only my hair was longer. I have always had a problem with authority. The “clique” society among young people in high school is still alive and well. Probably even much worse today with all the social networking crap. I get requests all the time from Facebook, I ignore them all. If I want to talk to you I will call you or send up a smoke signal. Sheet, I don’t even have a cell-phone and am a source of constant ridicule.

  191. Qshtik September 27, 2011 at 2:44 pm #

    To those who disparage those who are on Wall Street protesting the excesses of financial capital,
    destroyed by a fully impowered capitalism,
    So they’re going for the Artic now,
    ============
    Nine out of ten young “protesters” on Wall Street have little or no concept of “the excess of financial capital” that you speak of … whatever the fuck that means. They would need to sit quietly and take instruction from someone like you to even have a clue. They are in NY on a lark, many or most from outside the NY Metro area (according to a NYT reporter). They’ve heard their parents’ (grandparents’?) tales of the ’60s and it sounds so cool. And not a few wouldn’t mind “getting lucky” on this outing to the Big Apple. (That lubricated condom in their wallet is getting embarrassingly old.) I got the identical impression from my son’s friends who journeyed to Pittsburgh a year or so ago. (I forget what that dust-up was all about.) I loved the guy quoted in the NY Times that I mentioned yesterday who was a little too naive to realize you’re supposed to stay on message and not go around admitting to the press that you’re there “to make a spectacle.”
    The far more common spelling of this word is empowered.
    It’s Arctic not Artic.

  192. wagelaborer September 27, 2011 at 2:56 pm #

    I’ve always had a problem with authority, also.
    I said once that I was a natural-born anarchist, and my mother agreed with unseemly enthusiasm.

  193. Qshtik September 27, 2011 at 3:02 pm #

    Your nitpicking was actually right in this instance
    =============
    My nitpicking has always been right … I think what you mean here is not annoying.

  194. wagelaborer September 27, 2011 at 3:07 pm #

    Why the hell would a city police force need such capabilities? Whom exactly are they planning on using such force? Clearly, it is our own people, as seen in the Wall Street protests. And in the SWAT teams kicking down American doors and killing American dogs, while they go after pot smokers with extreme viciousness.
    Vicariously getting your rocks off by identifying with such overwhelming force is unbecoming an American, brought up to respect justice and the rights of the common man. (Or, at least, I was. I wonder about some on this blog). And yes, the cheering of Americans when raining terror onto other people is also unseemly.
    Don’t ask for whom the bomb drops, it drops for you… if you get out of line.

  195. Confusionism September 27, 2011 at 3:13 pm #

    “My nitpicking has always been right …” – Q
    Always? Be careful when using absolutes as they are rarely applicable.

  196. insufferable September 27, 2011 at 3:22 pm #

    Dear Vlad,
    I agree with you the Tea Party might be highjacked by the high jacked Republican Party. It seems that Bush II went along with the Neo Cons of his day. I am not in favor of more of that. They are into world domination by any means, and most probably used 9ll to legitimatize
    going to war in Iraq, Afghanistan etc. You are right about the left wanting to not have any one stepping on any ones toes, at least not THEIR toes. I do like Ron Paul. He says it like it is, but they keep saying “he could never make it and will divide the vote against the Republicans, and then OBAMA might get in again.” Do you see anything changing in the next election? I don’t.

  197. insufferable September 27, 2011 at 3:31 pm #

    Dear Wagelaborer:
    I don’t really understand your statment. Did you mean the right leaning american is stupid and lie about being good people, and the left leaning guy is trust worthy and intelligent? Sounds as though you are a left leaning guy. But you left one thing out….. the left leaners are delusional….too much drugs!!! and gay sex!!!!!

  198. insufferable September 27, 2011 at 3:38 pm #

    Dear Wage:
    One more thing. I do think this country has gotten to be fascist in it attempt to control its people. The TSA, Patriot ACt, FEMA, and the likes are just overt attempts to keep the public from being free. But if you think the democrats or left leaners are any different from the republicans and right leaners, just think OBAMA and you will see its all a load of crap. The entire govt wants to tell us who can smoke, who will live, or die, who will keep a seat belt on, who will pay taxes, who will eat mass produced food, etc. etc. right down to how you wipe your ass. Its a horrible nightmare and the only reason its gotten this far is because the Govt. keeps the sheeple in line with fear, regulations, and media lies. The people who follow and believe are those who cannot get themselves out of the drug haze of addiction, or wiff of greed. We are in one big mess…Olie.

  199. Buck Stud September 27, 2011 at 3:48 pm #

    Q,
    I’ll start using the term illegal immigrants when you start using the term “law-breaking employers” which, to be perfectly blunt, includes not a small amount of the companies that hail from the very state of the current GOP front-runner-Texas.
    Since the subject was displaced American workers, and undocumented workers are basically invited into the U.S. by the very fact that they are hired, the term “undocumented worker” seems to a far more precise fit for what is actually occurring. And the reason that these INVITEES remain undocumented, beyond wage savings, is to avoid other costs such as unemployment insurance, workers comp, etc.
    It seems to me you want to demonize the INVITEES, and ignore the law-breaking employers.

  200. bentpyramid September 27, 2011 at 3:49 pm #

    I’m having a bit of a problem imagining what a progressive tea party would be all about. Haven’t the progressives essentially won in every meaningful sense for about the last century? So what are they upset about?

  201. Qshtik September 27, 2011 at 3:59 pm #

    I’ll start using the term illegal immigrants when you start using the term “law-breaking employers”
    ==============
    It’s a deal.

  202. ctemple September 27, 2011 at 4:04 pm #

    One thing that Wage labor said not too long ago that made sense to me was, it’s not really about left and right anymore as much as it’s about the haves and the have nots. I believe that’s what was said.

  203. Mr Denn Mann September 27, 2011 at 4:22 pm #

    The single most successful campaign to take over this country, and possibly the world, has been pulled off.
    By creating a “liberals vs conservatives” dynamic, a vast majority of people are unaware, that the powers in charge are neither. They can keep the rhetoric rolling, and keep us fighting amongst ourselves, while they rob us blind, of our wealth, and our freedom. When is the last time you had an actual dialogue, with someone that might have an opposing viewpoint? Try it sometime, you might actually find very much agreement. You wouldn’t know that, by listening to the corporate media monopoly. Why does the media dislike Ron Paul? It’s because he’s a real conservative, not a Neo-con like the rest of the candidates. Why do they dislike Bernie Sanders, and Dennis Kucinich? Because they are real liberals. Funny thing, all three of them dislike the corporate enrichment system that prevails in our “bought and paid for” democracy. The truth, is that the real liberal agenda, and the real conservative agenda aren’t really that much different. We want sound money, a prosperous nation, with opportunities for anyone that actively pursues it, and the freedom to go about our business in peace. Turn your back on the corporate media monopoly, and actually talk with people that you might ordinarily not dialogue with. You may find your own beliefs confirmed, or even possibly challenged, but you will understand how much, we’re being deliberately divided, as so we can be easier to conquered.
    Denn

  204. The Anti-Gnostic September 27, 2011 at 4:35 pm #

    Denn:
    The Left doesn’t want sound money, because mere tax revenues will not support anything like the current level of government largesse. The Left doesn’t want prosperity, because prosperous people only need limited government that simply protects negative rights. The Left doesn’t want freedom to go about one’s business, because that means the freedom to withdraw from the State’s multicultural edicts.

  205. Confusionism September 27, 2011 at 4:36 pm #

    Amen, Denn

  206. Mr Denn Mann September 27, 2011 at 4:37 pm #

    @The Anti-gnostic
    I suppose you heard that on Corporate faux news? or perhaps corporate CNN? you’re just repeating the bleat-bleat noise the other sheep do. I said “ACTUAL DIALOGUE”. not sound-bites from the corporate media monopoly.

  207. roundy September 27, 2011 at 4:40 pm #

    So on Sept. 27 the world stock markets rallied. What Greek, European debt, banking problems? All is solved! Recall that U.S. Treasury Secretary Timmy Geithner attended the Euro finance ministers meeting in Poland a week or so ago and ‘advised’ them what to do. Some of the Euro finance ministers were not amused and criticized Timmy for his arrogance. Guess what, they’re on track to doing it anyway. See how the real world operates. The system, i.e. elites, will continue to do whatever they deem necessary – even if it means the end to what few powers individual european central banks retain. All hail a federal Europe. That was the endgame afterall. Read your history, folks. This Thursday the Germans will vote on the next chaper of the Greek bailout. Bet it passes. The only change on offer to the current corrupt system is short-change. And the masses are the ones who it’s being done to. Short of a mass upheaval, nothing is going to slay the juggernaut that’s been allowed to grow over the past 98 years, i.e. since the establishment of the US Federal Reserve, IRS, and other organs of central government. Problem is that there are not enough strong and good people willing to stand up and say ‘no’ to the peril of unfettered greed and criminality.

  208. Confusionism September 27, 2011 at 4:46 pm #

    Denn Mann,
    The human brain is a complex organ with the wonderful power of enabling man to find reasons for continuing to believe whatever it is that he wants to believe.
    Voltaire

  209. The Anti-Gnostic September 27, 2011 at 4:58 pm #

    Denn:
    The Left gets the welfare, the open borders, universal franchise, public edumacation, civil rights laws, abortions, tolerance for everybody no matter how restive or deviant, militant secularism, feminism, urban gun-free victim zones, and on and on. And now that Other People’s Money is running out and the intertribal conflicts have started heating up, they want DIALOGUE?
    I’m afraid we are well past that point.

  210. Mr Denn Mann September 27, 2011 at 4:59 pm #

    @Confusionism
    The media monopoly system, has proven very, very adept at sowing the seeds of cognitive dissonance.
    As for Why there isn’t a clear Tea-Party for the left? There aren’t that many dishonest, multi-billionaire leftists to foot the bill. I don’t see any left-leaning shadow politicians like the Koch brothers applying for the job. It’s strictly up to individuals, taking chances like the folks protesting on Wall Street.
    Do you want to know how to find the truth? Listen to what the media is “Not Saying”. How come when Ron Paul did so good in the debates, he mysteriously vanished from the media reports?

  211. agribiz September 27, 2011 at 5:00 pm #

    AAAH! THe ghost of Joe Bageant has arrived among us.
    Thank you.
    Not until upper middle class and rich liberals hold the working poor and others who are simply content with simplicity at closer than arms length will the radicalism of the well to do right, and their hold over much of the aforementioned, be replaced or at least evened out by a renewed understanding of and rising up of anything progressive in democratic governance and living.
    The bike riders and back to the country narcissists who fill up this blog see them as a nuisance. That is most evident in the fact that they seldom recieve notice on this page.
    The rubes can sense that they are being patronized. The right of the new fuedalism is much, much better at veiling it.

  212. Widespreadpanic7 September 27, 2011 at 5:03 pm #

    Hey Wage, I don’t identify with State Power as wielded by the City of New York; I was simply pointing out their astonishing capabilities, and that their police dept. is nothing to be trifled with . Q said most of the protesters are non-New Yorkers. I suspect New Yorkers themselves know better than to square of with the NYPD on the streets of Lower Manhattan.
    –WSP7

  213. Mr Denn Mann September 27, 2011 at 5:10 pm #

    @The Anti-Gnostic,
    What a nice sheep you are. You are even self-fleecing. You bought the party line so very well. I’m sure that they will reward you nicely someday.

  214. Widespreadpanic7 September 27, 2011 at 5:16 pm #

    MR. DMann;
    Funny, to me, AntAgnostic sounds more like a lion than a sheep.
    What party line are you talking about?
    Certainly not the one published in the New York Time, or seen on MSNBC everyday.
    –WSP7

  215. anti soak September 27, 2011 at 5:22 pm #

    Hahahah
    Thanks WSP7

  216. Mr Denn Mann September 27, 2011 at 5:27 pm #

    @WS7
    Nope. A lion would see past the rouse. A lion would investigate, and determine for himself what the truth is. He’s just repeating the same old stuff that Glen Beck, and Hannity, etc spew for ratings, and their corporate handlers. That makes him a sheep

  217. The Anti-Gnostic September 27, 2011 at 5:38 pm #

    Denn:
    What am I missing? I see a bunch of foks who spent their lives detesting and actively undercutting even the idea of an organic American nation, and then they realize that when TSHTF, all those straight, armed, white guys can be pretty useful to have around. Well this is one who’s telling you you’re on your own, jack.

  218. Widespreadpanic7 September 27, 2011 at 5:39 pm #

    Good thread today, folks!
    Lots to think about.
    I’ve only been aware of this site for about a month; I think its the best thing going.
    –WSP7

  219. Buck Stud September 27, 2011 at 5:53 pm #

    Mr Mann,
    Ordinarily I pooh-pooh putting Dem and Repubs under one corporate tent. After all, legal appointees superintend the societal scaffolding in various degrees of left/right interpretation. On other accounts, though, I do have to wonder. Especially when I read that the Obama administration is suing to uphold Bush administration policy in regards to the Utah Canyonlands.
    http://www.suwa.org/

  220. Mr Denn Mann September 27, 2011 at 5:55 pm #

    @The Anti-Gnostic
    You’re missing the multi-national corporations, that are actively feeding deceptions to those “armed white guys”. You’re missing the fact that if something isn’t ecologically sustainable, it’s not economically sustainable either. You’re missing the fact that many very liberal people are hard-working, self-sufficient, people, that in many cases are also armed. You’re missing out on the fact that freedom of religion, is also a freedom from religion.
    You’re falling into the black & white thinking, that characterizes mental illness. It’s not black and white at all. That’s just what they want you to believe.

  221. Mr Denn Mann September 27, 2011 at 6:01 pm #

    Oh, a note to JHK
    I think we should find a copy of this, for a clusterfuck nation screening
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americathon

  222. And So it Goes September 27, 2011 at 6:06 pm #

    KrankyinVancouver;
    Apropos; Excellent

  223. lbendet September 27, 2011 at 6:13 pm #

    You gotta love this one. As I said the bets are in for a total market crash. This will not continue forever, because it’s utterly impossible but here goes, from Thom Hartmann:
    [Are the banksters fueling a global market meltdown? Heads turned yesterday – when stock trader Alessio Rastani went on the BBC and predicted that the Eurozone is going to crash within the next twelve months – and that a lot of banksters will make a fortune off it.
    “This problem cannot be solved,” Rastani said. “I’m fairly confident that the Euro is going to crash, and it’s going to fall pretty hard.” Rastani then admitted that he – as well as traders in giant banks on Wall Street – have actually placed bets that global markets will crash, and are poised to make huge profits if their bets come in.
    Rastani said, “The depression in the 30’s wasn’t just about a market crash. There were some people who were prepared to make money from that crash. I think anybody can do that. The governments don’t rule the world,” Rastani added, “Goldman Sachs rules the world. Goldman Sachs does not care about this rescue package.” From manipulating food prices that spark a hunger crisis around the world – to distorting oil prices that trigger recessions here in the United States – to bringing down an entire global economy – it’s all part of a day’s work for traders like Rastani and Goldman Sachs.
    How much longer are we going to let speculators and banksters run the show – and screw us all over?]

  224. Widespreadpanic7 September 27, 2011 at 6:20 pm #

    “Freedom from Religion” DMann
    Uh oh, AntiAgnostic, that was one of Stalin’s favorite phrases, one that he used as an excuse to dynamite churches … by the thousands.
    No use arguing. You’re dealing with a true believer.
    –WSP7

  225. Mr Denn Mann September 27, 2011 at 6:25 pm #

    @WS7
    Do you believe that the United States should be governed by a theocracy?

  226. ozone September 27, 2011 at 7:23 pm #

    Why shore!
    “Gott mit Uns”, remember?
    Gott do love him a good killin’ or two [billion]. ;o)
    (It’s important to consider that gawd is very interested in irony [even if he knows exactly when occurrences of it will ensue]; always has been; told me so in most unambiguous terms… in the English language, no less!)
    All of Man’s endeavor is to BECOME gawd; perhaps we’ve been written off as poor competition/entertainment looooooong ago. ;o)

  227. ozone September 27, 2011 at 7:25 pm #

    Ps.
    Most unfortunately, Nature ain’t havin’ any of it. Sorry, the future has been cancelled on rumors and evidence of abundant foolishness…

  228. ozone September 27, 2011 at 7:27 pm #

    …by monkeys of insufficient gawd-like qualities. (Much to the chagrin of the moneyed priesthood.)

  229. ak September 27, 2011 at 7:29 pm #

    JOE LEGAL vs. JOSE ILLEGAL
    You have two families: “Joe Legal” and “Jose Illegal”.Both families have two parents, two children, and live in California
    Joe Legal works in construction, has a Social Security Number and makes $25.00per hour with taxes deducted.
    Jose Illegal also works in construction, has NO Social Security Number,and gets paid $15.00 cash “under the table”.
    Ready? Now pay attention…
    Joe Legal: $25.00 per hour x 40 hours = $1000.00 per week, or $52,000.00
    per year. Now take 30% away for state and federal tax; Joe Legal now
    has$31,231.00.
    Jose Illegal: $15.00 per hour x 40 hours = $600.00
    per week, or $31,200..00 per year. Jose Illegal pays no taxes. Jose
    Illegal now has $31,200.00.
    Joe Legal pays medical and dental insurance with limited coverage for his family at $600.00 per month, or
    $7,200.00 per year. Joe Legal now has $24,031.00.
    Jose Illegal has full medical and dental coverage through the state and local clinics
    at a cost of $0.00 per year. Jose Illegal still has$31,200.00.
    Joe Legal makes too much money and is not eligible for food stamps or
    welfare. Joe Legal pays $500.00 per month for food, or $6,000.00 per
    year. Joe Legal now has $18,031.00.
    Jose Illegal has no documented income and is eligible for food stamps and welfare. Jose Illegal still has $31,200.00.
    Joe Legal pays rent of $1,200.00 per month, or $14,400.00 per year. Joe Legal now has $9,631.00.
    Jose Illegal receives a $500.00 per month federal rent subsidy. Jose
    Illegal pays out that $500.00 per month, or $6,000.00 per year. Jose
    Illegal still has $ 31,200.00.
    Joe Legal pays $200.00 per month, or $2,400.00 for insurance. Joe Legal now
    has $7,231.00.
    Jose Illegal says, “We don’t need no stinkin’ insurance!” and still has $31,200.00.
    Joe Legal has to make his $7,231.00 stretch to pay utilities, gasoline, etc.
    Jose Illegal has to make his $31,200.00 stretch to pay utilities,gasoline, and what he sends out of the country every month.
    Joe Legal now works overtime on Saturdays or gets a part time job after
    work.
    Jose Illegal has nights and weekends off to enjoy with his family.
    Joe Legal’s and Jose Illegal’s children both attend the same school. Joe
    Legal pays for his childrens lunches while Jose Illegal’s children get a
    government sponsored lunch..
    Jose Illegal’s children have an after school ESL program.
    Joe Legal’s children go home.
    Joe Legal and Jose Illegal both enjoy the same police and fire services, but Joe paid for them and Jose did not pay.
    Do you get it, now?

    This was a reader’s comment in the article about the Controversial Bake Sale at UC Berkeley.
    Bonus point: find the subtraction error

  230. ozone September 27, 2011 at 7:41 pm #

    Hey, now!
    Funny how those who’ve bought in to the corporate media’s whirling-hypnosis-propaganda overlook these “little things” (that might get them handily perforated).
    Ah, life is “real-er” than the omniscient tee-vee. Who could possibly have guessed?

  231. Buck Stud September 27, 2011 at 7:53 pm #

    It’s official: there is no difference between a conservative or liberal and below is the proof. And since there is no difference, I’ll go ahead and vote for Obama anyway 🙂
    ” Nearly half of his nominees who have been confirmed to federal judgeships are women; 21% are African American; 11% are Hispanic and 7% are Asian. Less than 30% of his judicial appointments have gone to white men, who hold the lion’s share of federal judgeships”
    http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/forum/story/2011-09-27/obama-judges-court-appointments/50557044/1

  232. Mr Denn Mann September 27, 2011 at 8:01 pm #

    @ozone,
    What?
    It appears as though, the “English as a second language” class was a bust?

  233. ozone September 27, 2011 at 8:26 pm #

    Uh-oh!
    Could that teacher have possibly been DA DEB’BIL?
    It is to weep for my future prospects in heb’benly book-making and various shadowy temptings of scabby-kneed evangelicals. :o(
    ;o)

  234. Qshtik September 27, 2011 at 9:35 pm #

    Bonus point: find the subtraction error
    ===============
    When 30% taxes (= to $15,600) are taken away from $52,000 the remainder is $36,400 not $31,231. All subsequent numbers for Joe Legal are screwed up accordingly … but we get your drift.

  235. Qshtik September 27, 2011 at 10:00 pm #

    A lion would see past the rouse.
    ===================
    It’s ruse.
    You’re new around here aren’t you Denn? Be advised I’m the self-appointed spelling, grammar, punctuation and usage pain-in-the-ass around these parts.

  236. Qshtik September 27, 2011 at 10:25 pm #

    …published in the New York Time
    =================
    Hey, I say if it’s OK to make the name of the world’s premier newspaper singular it should be OK to make these other papers’ names plural:
    The Wall Street Journals
    The Washington Posts
    Chicago Tribunes
    Newsdays
    Houston Chronicles

  237. BeantownBill September 27, 2011 at 10:28 pm #

    I love your comments, Q. You have such a fine sense of sarcasm (if sarcasm is a sense).

  238. JulettaofOhio September 27, 2011 at 10:34 pm #

    What fascist fellow-travelers??? Good Night Irene!Sounds like one of the old 50s TV spy dramas. “I Led Two Lives” or something like that. Actually, I was thanking a gentleman. We (former) southern girls deeply appreciate the kindness of strangers.
    The main stream media is anything but pro-right-wing and I’ll see your Koch Brothers and raise you a George Soros.
    Also, I learned all about “cognitive dissonance” in Psych 101. Taught the concepts to my sons in home school. Both sons graduated from college, one with a 4.0 and the other with a 3.95. I doubt either son has killed anyone in Iraq. They are in a totally different area (albeit dangerous) than combat. I feel sorry for OUR soldiers.
    Perhaps, if you consider my sons to be murderous thugs, you could rely on Obama for personal protection, although he seems to lack any viable manly virtues and unless you have a wad of cash to give him, doubt he’d care. You’d probably do better with MegaButt. Arrange for an all-expense vacation for her and maybe she’ll squash them for you. (Sorry, this is a rant from hours ago. Don’t remember the poster and am too tired to look for it.)
    Anyway, I still enjoy this blog. The quality of discourse is higher than average, although the pettiness is standard. JHK is riveting even though he’s a lib.

  239. asoka. September 27, 2011 at 10:35 pm #

    It’s official: there is no difference between a conservative or liberal and below is the proof. And since there is no difference, I’ll go ahead and vote for Obama anyway 🙂 ” Nearly half of his nominees who have been confirmed to federal judge-ships are women; 21% are African American; 11% are Hispanic and 7% are Asian. Less than 30% of his judicial appointments have gone to white men, who hold the lion’s share of federal judge-ships”

    Excellent, Buck Stud!
    LOL!
    You, me, and about 53% of the rest of the 2012 voters will vote for Obama.
    Obama’s second term is pretty much guaranteed.
    Obama has been the most successful activist president since FDR, with positive accomplishments in education, health care, judicial appointments, tax cuts, job creation, deficit reduction, border control, Bin Laden’s assassination, consumer protection, etc., etc., etc.

  240. Qshtik September 27, 2011 at 10:36 pm #

    they seldom recieve notice on this page.
    ================
    It’s receive.
    i before e except after c or when sounded like a as in neighbor and weigh. (For our British, Canadian and Aussie friends, neighbour.)

  241. Widespreadpanic7 September 27, 2011 at 10:53 pm #

    Q, pointing out my (many) typos and errors is like shooting ducks in a barrel. Or should that be fish in a barrel?
    I don’t know Asoka. I don’t think it matters much who the president is. But Obama has lost his Jewish support down here in South Florida, and I doubt 40% of whites will vote for him this time around.
    –WSP7

  242. WorldsEdge September 27, 2011 at 10:53 pm #

    The current game in Europe, as it was in this country in 2008, is to save the banks that made all those big and bad investments. The people of the wealthier nations will have to pay big time to bail the banks out.
    But this is only half the game. If you are a bank, or other huge multinational entity sitting on a huge bag of people’s money, would you rather buy things for the regular price or vastly discounted? That’s what austerity is for, beat the price of things down. Desperate people will have to sell everything cheap, even themselves. Only when things get really cheap will the wealthy buy.

  243. myrtlemay September 27, 2011 at 11:05 pm #

    Don’t worry, Bean, he’ll let you know whether it is or isn’t. Ready at the helm…just like our dear Alexandra. Where is that charming young lady, anyway? I sometimes gain comfort picturing her at the helm of her boat, chartering course, away from the direction in which the S hits TF.

  244. myrtlemay September 27, 2011 at 11:13 pm #

    I learned from “hubby” on his way back from work (someone’s got to support us, you know!) that there was a demonstration of postal workers (about l00 or so by his estimate, protesting the U.S. government’s proposal of potentially eliminating jobs, several post offices, and Saturday delivery. Tied up 5:00 pm traffic near the busy intersection near our home. Pissed him off. I didn’t catch the news tonight, so I failed to discover whether or not the police had decided to use tear gas or laser them.

  245. BeantownBill September 27, 2011 at 11:20 pm #

    Interesting posts this week.
    Of course there’s a big difference between liberals and conservatives. Liberals want to help those less fortunate than themselves by either unfairly forcing people to pay for services they don’t need, or by recklessly increasing public debt.
    Conservatives are basically frightened people who turn to god big-time for protection, and who try to accumulate wealth, because what if non-conservatives, god forbid, end up ruling the country and wreck it? The only way to survive, then, is to buy your way out of trouble if things go bad.
    Don’t you guys realize it’s all about the money? It’s always about the money. Arguing about liberals vs. conservatives is a red herring. The real issue is who has the most chips at the end of the day.
    In the meantime, while people are arguing about labels, the world’s population is increasing disasterously; world-wide food distribution is out of whack; the weather seems to be getting more and more fluky; we’re depleting energy resources faster than we are creating them; nuclear weapons and material are proliferating to the extent that they aren’t even totally accounted for; fresh water resources are being depleted; the oceans and air are so filthy that some citizens, like those in Mexico City and Los Angeles, almost never see a clear day, and there are floating islands of garbage hundreds of square miles in the Atlantic and Pacific; and extremely rich people, governments and business entities are zealously scheming to accumulate total power and wealth, which of course are the real religion.
    And mostly, people here are arguing about why liberals or conservatives, or blacks and whites are such shitbums. Really, doesn’t this chitter-chattering remind you of a bunch of monkeys jabbering in the trees as the forest fire keeps getting closer?

  246. daofirry2 September 27, 2011 at 11:21 pm #

    ibendet, thank you for posting the text about Alessio Rastani, blurting out what many public figures pray that no one will say out loud. I found a video of him saying Goldman Sachs rules the world, etc, I hope the link works.
    http://money.msn.com/top-stocks/post.aspx?post=bc551f0b-bbdf-46cd-abe9-d7ea029a5d07

  247. myrtlemay September 27, 2011 at 11:25 pm #

    When the last McRib sandwich is torn from the last mouth of overfed, overweight amerikans, then perhaps you’ll hear a squawk from some of the sheeple. Until then (I’m thinking 25 or 30 years), continue to buy land and plant some gardens/fruit trees. And teach your kids and grandkids to do stuff, like cook, sew, chop firewood, collect aluminum cans, etc. If nothing else, it’ll teach them some character.
    I’m doubtful that those used tires we collected and kitchen lard we saved did much to save the war effort, but at least it gave us a sense of self reliance (however misguided).

  248. Qshtik September 27, 2011 at 11:38 pm #

    chartering course
    =============
    charting

  249. Qshtik September 27, 2011 at 11:43 pm #

    to use tear gas or laser them.
    ============
    taser

  250. anti soak September 28, 2011 at 12:25 am #

    Its aka Wetbacks and on one blog I was [I say this proudly] BANNED FER ALMOST A WEEK FOR USING THAT TERM…TO DESCRIBE HOW SOME HAVE MORE ‘RIGHTS’ THAN OTHERS.
    And in LA you might get stoned for using it.

  251. Qshtik September 28, 2011 at 12:34 am #

    Its aka Wetbacks
    =============
    They’re aka Wetbacks

  252. anti soak September 28, 2011 at 2:10 am #

    In answer to yr question..YES
    Divide and Conquer!!

  253. ctemple September 28, 2011 at 2:46 am #

    No, it doesn’t remind me of monkeys, but the patronizing psycho babble from liberals/ atheists does remind me of people who think they’re a lot smarter than they really are.
    I’m sure we can all work together, after you people put us down and make fun of our religious beliefs and everything that doesn’t suit you.
    Can’t we just get along?

  254. Ixnei September 28, 2011 at 4:14 am #

    “Can’t we just get along?”
    Yeah, let’s all *get along*!!! I’m still IP banned. No, my account wasn’t banned – I try to load the WEB site, and I get a 403 FORBIDDEN ACCESS error. I have to proxy server *HAXOR* just to get in here…
    I want someone to tell me how *we* (the little men/women) could have taken advantage of that silver price dropping from 40 to 26/30. As far as I could see, the only thing selling for 26/30 were the bogus ETF’s – real physical silver was still (and is still) 40+. And why shouldn’t it be – it’s price, along with that of gold, platinum, palladium, etc, have been driven by the inflationary money printing presses in all of the world’s countries (not just helicopter-Ben).
    We are getting close. I wonder about the *news*. Perhaps it should really be called, the *noise* (the *NONSENSE*?). All the news I’ve seen for the past week has been trivial horse-SH!T. Could you imagine news like, “200 square miles of the Amazon rainforest were clearcut today. 3 tons of radioactive cesium was sent airborne from Fukushima. The Chinese aquifers are at 20% of the levels from 30 years ago. Airborne pollutants …” *YOU* get the picture.

  255. lbendet September 28, 2011 at 7:56 am #

    I, Have you contacted JHK about your access message?
    ________________________
    OK, so what I posted yesterday about the Goldman Sachs bets against the world that Thom Hartmann posted: This rang true in every sense to me. I remember when the Banks in GB had a run, people were lined up in the streets trying to get their money and the traders were betting on whether the little people would smash the windows or get violent in some manner.
    Webster Tarpley says the real power that works in the background is the nexus between Wall street and London’s financial sector.
    This nonsense will continue unabated because they have positioned themselves to never lose. They bet for and they bet against. Since 2008 their power is codified.

  256. Widespreadpanic7 September 28, 2011 at 8:30 am #

    Ibendet,
    This NY–London ‘nexus’ as you call it, has existed since at least the 1880’s. What’s astonishing is that GB has devolved into such a weak little country and that London matters at all. But it still seems to be the repository for the wealth of many of its former colonies. I notice that the LIBOR rate is headed down close to zero.
    Have you ventured down to Wall Street to have a look at the protests? It would be interesting if you could do do that and give us a first hand CFN report.
    –WSP7

  257. lbendet September 28, 2011 at 8:46 am #

    Good question, WSP7
    Risking sounding like a cop-out I’m a small business person working mainly out of my home office. I’m juggling a few projects and have to do under deadline, so although I can take time out to write on the blog going downtown would require time for me that I don’t have.
    Keith Olbermann has had some coverage so you might want to go to his site and check out some video. Depending on how long this continues, I might find some time, but for now I can’t.
    T’was free trade that hurt GB and is hurting us as well. It all comes down to economic determinism.

  258. Widespreadpanic7 September 28, 2011 at 9:07 am #

    Understood, Ibendet. Thanks for responding.
    –WSP7

  259. asoka. September 28, 2011 at 9:32 am #

    Widespread, what is their alternative?
    http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/09/22/dnc-chair-obama-will-win-jewish-vote-in-2012
    The Jewish vote will go to Obama.

  260. ozone September 28, 2011 at 10:54 am #

    “I’m sure we can all work together, after you people put us down and make fun of our religious beliefs and everything that doesn’t suit you.
    Can’t we just get along?” -CT
    Absolutely we can.
    Please consider that I find the vast majority of your postings to be enlightening and informative (for me, anyhow).
    When it comes to that narrow window: If you have “the right” to tout your superstitions, have I not “the right” to ridicule those superstitions as the silliness I believe them to be?
    (I consider it a pretty small bone of contention, allowing for some give-and-take ribbing; you might not, depending on how much it informs your everyday life.)
    *Sorry to butt in, as you weren’t addressing me!*
    Ps. One of the things I find irritatingly strange about many Puritanical “belief systems”, is the distinct lack of humor and self-deprecation. Whas’sup wid’dat?

  261. Widespreadpanic7 September 28, 2011 at 11:29 am #

    “I’m still voting for Obama”… BuckStud
    Its unanimous then!
    All the effete, well-paid, tenured Profs, in the dimmed, comfortable ambience of the faculty lounge, Che Guvera t-shirts worn underneath tweed jackets, gingerly sipping brandy after a grueling 3 hour workday, will all be voting Obama 2012.
    I’m shocked, shocked I tell ya’.
    –WSP7

  262. asoka. September 28, 2011 at 12:08 pm #

    Widespread, you have to remember Whites are rapidly becoming a minority population in the United States, and Obama will get most of the White minority vote, and the unemployed vote (since Obama extended unemployment benefits over Republican objections), and especially the employed vote like the teachers, firefighters, etc. (who still have jobs thanks to Obama’s American Recovery Act).
    Obama has no opposition candidate and the potential Republican candidate is likely to be someone who does not believe in science and wants to eliminate Social Security (if the evangelical Republicans and Mormom Republicans can ever agree on anything).
    Obama will win easily in 2012.

  263. Widespreadpanic7 September 28, 2011 at 12:17 pm #

    So, then what?
    WSP7

  264. Outpost of the Empire September 28, 2011 at 12:18 pm #

    Regarding Jim’s comments”Where is Tea Party of Progressives?….Will somebody please step up and take the baton?” There is an interesting column written in The Tyee by Katrina Orlowski which deals with this subject it isn’t very long but it covers one aspect of this issue, the role of the mainstream media. The item is titled “Big Media Afraid to Take Wall Street Protest Seriously” Not to plug this publication but Andrew Nikiforuk also has a good item on the Tar Sands ( Sept.22nd The Tyee) Just thought some fellow bloggers would find theses items informative.

  265. lbendet September 28, 2011 at 12:45 pm #

    There are progressives out there, but several things have to take place. There needs to be agenda building and there needs to be a greater reach-out, not just among like-minded people but try and get the attention of those with more voice and power.
    Dylan Ratigan, not a liberal, but an honest voice is one place to start.
    The conservative movement took years to build behind the scenes and they have been taking the wrecking ball to all things public. It has been mentioned that they deliberately passed laws in 2006 to force the Post office to fund pensions of those not even working there yet, but on projections.
    They are fighting a war and we aren’t. We never see this stuff coming till it’s too late and we have to react and instead are like deer caught in the headlights with each outrageous attack.
    I was listening earlier to Max Keiser “Wall st. weaked financial havoc” and another good one is:
    “We told you privatization was going to fail. We told you they would renationize to save billions.”
    Those who do not back the status quo are not getting heard by the majority of people because the corporate owned media doesn’t want people to think.
    I contacted Joe Scarborough today as they were drooling over Christie speaking at the Reagan Library to a crowd who hate their candidates. On the one hand Scarborough says how important it is for the truth to part of our public discourse, yet when Christie extols Reagan there is no mention of his having raised taxes 11 times!

  266. brothermartin September 28, 2011 at 12:50 pm #

    There’s no left-wing equivalent to the tea party for a few reasons: 1)there’s no left-wing Koch Brothers to bankroll us; 2)The media resolutely distort/ignore what we do pull off, like the Wall St. occupation; 3)most “liberal Democrats” are blind to the fact that they’re buying into a TweedleDem and Tweedledumber duopoly, and support the corporate Dems like Obama out of fear of the foaming fascist corporatos like Rick Perry, etc. A onetime teacher of mine said of the baby boom generation that we are “the most spoiled generation in the history of the planet.” Sad to say, it seems he was right. No courage, no willingness to defend anything but our own comfort. We’re getting what we deserve.

  267. bossier22 September 28, 2011 at 12:57 pm #

    what about soros?

  268. Elrond Hubbard September 28, 2011 at 12:59 pm #

    Jerry: “There will be no rising up of the progressive left precisely because they are not the politics of rage.”
    For my money, Jerry, you’re exactly right in saying this. There isn’t a “Tea Party of the Left” because the Tea Party was created and defined by playing on white people’s resentments. There is no one on the left even remotely as skilled at this as Limbaugh, Hannity, O’Reilly and their ilk.
    Jerry: “I would go even further and argue that progressive politics (and non-violent protest) is a luxury afforded only by those with abundant resources and a thriving economy.”
    There is more to it than that. There are still plenty of resources — the problem today is that there is no organized resistance as there was In the original Progressive Era (i.e. the union movement). My hope is that the #OccupyWallStreet protests are a sign that people, the younger generation especially, are catching on and that organized resistance is finally starting to take form.
    http://www.rawstory.com/rawreplay/2011/09/chris-hedges-occupy-wall-street-is-where-the-hope-of-america-lies/

  269. bossier22 September 28, 2011 at 1:00 pm #

    whites becoming the minority is like peak oil. We are now on the bumpy plateau. It is all down hill after that.

  270. Widespreadpanic7 September 28, 2011 at 1:02 pm #

    Brother Martin;
    What about Spielberg, Geffen, Katzenberg, and a half dozen other Hollywood billionaires?
    What about the Google billionaires?
    Just to name a few.
    –WSP7

  271. Widespreadpanic7 September 28, 2011 at 1:05 pm #

    Not to mention Carlos Slim. Nothing he’d like more than to bring down gringos in el Norte a notch or two.
    You got plenty of dough on your side. It must be something else.
    –WSP7

  272. asoka. September 28, 2011 at 1:07 pm #

    lbendet said: “There are progressives out there…”
    ==============
    LOL!
    lbendet, in 2007, when everyone on this blog was saying that Obama didn’t have a chance, supposedly because America was not ready to elect a Black man president, I was providing evidence that Obama would be elected in 2008.
    Now, the same people are trying to say Obama won’t be elected in 2012. Republicans in control of state legislatures and governors’ mansions are trying to set up structural roadblocks to voting for Obama. It won’t work. The majority will out and the mandate will be uncontested. It will be a landslide for Obama.
    What the Republicans still don’t realize is that progressives are the new “silent majority” and we aren’t gonna let them take away (or privatize) Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, veteran’s benefits, unemployment benefits, marriage equality, EPA, USPS, Head Start, Pell Grants, collective bargaining, consumer protection, FDA, etc. etc.

  273. k-dog September 28, 2011 at 1:34 pm #

    And from Katrina’s story:
    “The Murdoch-owned Wall Street Journal has run a handful of stories on Occupy Wall Street, seeming to take a close interest only when protesters began being arrested.”
    So a tree falls in the forest and nobody reports it. Rupert likes things as they are and progressives don’t. Progressives aren’t news but protesters getting arrested changes things. Protesters become puppets in a morality play for the existing order, now it’s news.
    But hey, its a free country and any baton holding savior rising with the winds can find their efforts holding protests in vacant lots or other approved areas on the outskirts of town on U-tube for a few days before their efforts become lost to the sands of time.
    Too many believe that American news is actually news for a progressive movement to rise. Opposition is like pissing in the wind, futile.
    Earlier Voltaire was quoted:
    “The human brain is a complex organ with the wonderful power of enabling man to find reasons for continuing to believe whatever it is that he wants to believe.”
    This wonderful power of the human brain is now being applied to use technical band-aids of all types with exquisite and awesome skill to maintain our unsustainable society. Our world becomes ever more complex and fragile with each new band-aid because sadly nothing ever actually heals. Nothing gets fixed, things only get covered over.
    Marvelous technology allows us to continue to believe whatever it is that we want to believe, and ever present entertainment is always there to quash any pesky novel thoughts.
    Our course could change but for now the fridge is full and lights only flicker when it is really really windy.

  274. wagelaborer September 28, 2011 at 2:57 pm #

    George Soros- a Hungarian who made his billions in currency speculation, and uses it to destroy the national sovereignity of countries who resist globalization, under the guise of “human rights”, now being played out in Libya, as thousands of civilans are being bombed TODAY by NATO forces, backing a strange group of expatriates, alqueda members, and Ghaddafi disloyalists who have agreed to turn Libya’s riches over to the West, is being used by multiple people here as an example of the “left”.
    Un-fucking-believable!
    George Soros backed Obama because he preferred the Zbigniew Brzezinski method of attacking Central Asia and Russia to the Wolfowitz doctrine.
    As Phil Rockstroh points out, I’m sure it means a lot to the children being ripped apart by US cluster bombs and drones that the Obama/Brzezinski neoliberals are the ones directing the bombs, and not the Bush/Cheney neoconseratives.
    Neoliberals and neoconservatives are the “choice” we get. The definitions of their philosophies are pretty much the same.
    Sovereign countries are so 20th century. We now have global corporate governance and any one who dares refuse will die.
    George Soros!! Bah!

  275. bossier22 September 28, 2011 at 3:03 pm #

    are you saying: koch bros = soros as far as how it effects the average person?

  276. wagelaborer September 28, 2011 at 3:05 pm #

    While many of us have heard the Project for a New American Century’s (the neocons in charge on 9-11) on the need for a terrorist attack to raise support for their plans-
    “Section V of Rebuilding America’s Defenses, entitled “Creating Tomorrow’s Dominant Force”, includes the sentence: “Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event––like a new Pearl Harbor” (51).
    How many know that Obama’s man (the neoliberal) used the same event to point out that Americans are not naturally imperialist, and need prodding to start bombing other people?
    “The attitude of the American public toward the external projection of American power has been much more ambivalent. The public supported America’s engagement in World War II largely because of the shock effect of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.” (pp 24-5)
    “For America, the chief geopolitical prize is Eurasia… Now a non-Eurasian power is preeminent in Eurasia – and America’s global primacy is directly dependent on how long and how effectively its preponderance on the Eurasian continent is sustained.” (p.30)

  277. wagelaborer September 28, 2011 at 3:11 pm #

    The Koch brothers directly fund the Tea Party, paying for organizers and such. The media coverage comes not just from Fox, but from all the corporate media, including NPR, which is where I heard about the first Tea Party event in my city. I went to it, not realizing that it was right wing! (I sure found out in a hurry, when some nasty woman started screaming at me about abortion. Which I hadn’t even mentioned).
    George Soros funds think tanks devoted to spinning rationalizations for destroying other countries’ sovereignity under the guise of “democracy” and “human rights”.
    I think he spends money supporting candidates, but hasn’t actually organized a “grassroots” movement, the way that the Koches have.
    My point is that the whole argument over liberals vs conservatives is like arguing over whether you’d rather be shot or hung.
    I prefer neither, thank you. But that option won’t be covered on the news.

  278. Widespreadpanic7 September 28, 2011 at 3:25 pm #

    WageLab;
    Good post about Soros. I didn’t know any of that about him. Last year CNBC did an entire feature on Soros and didn’t mention any of that.
    Speaking of television, NatGeo channel has a new show called “frontier force”, following around state and local police in Montana. I’ve never been to Montana, but I picture stalwart westerners with cowboy hats, gold miners, ranches, the open range, independent people living in the mountains etc. There is some of that, but there is more cooking crystal meth, selling crystal meth, using crystal meth, being addicted to crystal meth, neglecting your children while on crystal meth, robbing the local market to buy crystal meth … every little town the cameras enter the narrator announces “has a crime rate worst than Detroit”. There are gangs and gangsters in the small towns and cities and they aren’t wearing cowboy hats or boots either, no, they’re dressed like they’re from South Central LA. Its pretty discouraging. Even in the snowy west everything is corrupted and f—-d up. There’s no place left to go.
    –WSP7
    KL, Fla

  279. lbendet September 28, 2011 at 3:27 pm #

    Wage
    Excellent posts. Thank you for discussing these two crazy sides of the same coin!!
    I think the only difference is that the neocons wanted the oil in Iraq for the US and the neolibs wanted it for the corporations—we couldn’t even get that advantage, since nation states (as you say) are so yesterday.
    In the meantime prepare for the theater of cruelty, have you heard the responses of the rabble during the Republican debates and Christie’s speech? (oh, he’s running)

  280. Buck Stud September 28, 2011 at 3:30 pm #

    How can we lament the lack of mass movements and impassioned causes without considering the dilutive effect of mass media, and specifically the internet?
    The World Wide Web might be the greatest human pacifier ever invented. Our text is nothing more than straws of hay enveloping the occasional needle of insight.

  281. bossier22 September 28, 2011 at 3:37 pm #

    soros seems to be as big a bogeyman to the right as the kochs are to the left.

  282. bossier22 September 28, 2011 at 3:40 pm #

    The world wide web keeps in our chairs typing. It is just a bullshit session around the virtual potbellied stove.

  283. wagelaborer September 28, 2011 at 3:49 pm #

    I’ve been to Montana, and it’s relevant to our “right vs left” discussion.
    I was sitting in a bar, talking to a lumberjack, who considered himself a conservative.
    However, when I criticized multi-national corporations and the government that works for them, he agreed.
    About the only thing we ended up disagreeing about was logging in national parks.

  284. wagelaborer September 28, 2011 at 3:52 pm #

    You mean the cheering of killing people? Both dubiously convicted “criminals” and uninsured sick people?
    I did hear that. Pretty chilling.
    Of course, we come from people who found public executions entertainment.
    Bringing people together. Maybe when the internet is cut off, we’ll actually get to talk to our neighbors again, as we gather to watch heretics be burned alive.
    Good times.

  285. budizwiser September 28, 2011 at 3:59 pm #

    I think I have a pretty good idea of how the Long Emergency will play out. The PTB has decided there is no reward in playing to the masses. Hence the continuing non-stop bank robberies.
    I assume they figure enormous wealth and power will insulate them from discomfort for the foreseeable future.
    Most reasoning regarding Peak Oil and other resources will be skewed by rigged markets. Supply and demand has little do with pricing.
    I guess all you have to do is watch what happens in Greece to see our future. Of course, they will have the new world “austerity” plans considerably refined by the time we’re reduced to eating fish heads.
    Be prepared, expect no satisfaction, and learn to tolerate your neighbors. The trouble with Kansas is coming to all fifty states in spades.
    Jesus says the meek shall inherit the Earth – but he didn’t say “when.”

  286. wagelaborer September 28, 2011 at 4:02 pm #

    I think it’s a human quality to want to personify evil.
    Bernie Madoff was put into prison, and the rest go free.
    I can’t think of the word for that. It could be scapegoat, but I think there’s another. Q?
    When all the anger is vented onto one person, and the rest go free?
    So now we have the Koch brothers and George Soros, 1% whipping boys for the two factions in the bottom 99%.
    Nope, that’s not the word either. But you know what I mean.

  287. wagelaborer September 28, 2011 at 4:11 pm #

    Hmmm. Information Clearing House has articles from Ron Paul AND Noam Chomsky regarding “humanitarian intervention”, which Soros pushes and the US uses to attack countries that refuse globalization.
    There you go. Right and left agree that bombing countries that haven’t harmed you in any way under the guise of “protecting human rights” (as defined by Western imperialists) is absolutely wrong.

  288. bossier22 September 28, 2011 at 4:14 pm #

    Similar to Nazi war criminals, most went free. Many thought they were doing the right thing. scary.

  289. asoka. September 28, 2011 at 4:57 pm #

    Like water-boarding. All the Americans who water-boarded prisoners in the last few years are free.
    The Japanese who water-boarded Americans were prosecuted for water-boarding.
    I guess it depends whether you are having it done to you or you are doing it.
    If we do it, there is no prosecution for criminal behavior.
    Scary.

  290. progress2conserve September 28, 2011 at 5:16 pm #

    “About the only thing we ended up disagreeing about was logging in national parks.”
    -wage, in reference to a “conservative” lumberjack-
    Couple of good posts, Wage. And, yep, you are correct that the gap between honest, thinking individuals on left and right is not as wide as it is made out to be.
    And as a (small) private forest landowner – I’ve always wondered why I have to compete on price with the USFS – on timber sale prices, when these prices are pushed lower by government owned trees, and the government management expertise and logistics that comes with them.
    BUT remember – Your buddy, the lumberjack, probably does vote for the “james watt?” types of candidates, reflexively.
    And these types of candidates come prepackaged with most/all of the conservative/RW/anti-environment/pro-whatever views firmly in place.
    Wonder what your lumberjack would have thought about your ideas on the Twin Towers?
    ============
    And this CFN thread is having a pretty good week so far. I’ve been unable to post for a couple of days and I’m working my way up from the bottom.

  291. Widespreadpanic7 September 28, 2011 at 5:16 pm #

    That’s pretty much how it goes, Asoka.
    In ’44 & ’45, American strategic bombing killed roughly 500,000 Japanese civilians, and that’s not including the nuclear detonations in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
    I’m not passing judgment on Roosevelt or Truman; they did what they had to do to win the war. But it just goes to show you it’s the victors who pass judgement. The losers get judged.
    –WSP7

  292. progress2conserve September 28, 2011 at 5:26 pm #

    the WWW “….is just a bullshit session around the virtual potbellied stove.”
    -bossier, seconding buck stud’s opinion –
    That’s pretty well put, boss. I’d never thought of it like that. But it cuts both ways. Around the pot-bellied stoves of my dim and distant youth – there was indeed, PLENTY of bullshittery.
    But important issues were also hammered out – especially at the local level. And every local politician in the land was expected to drop by for an RC Cola and a Moon Pie (local custom) and stand up to some intense questioning and probing.
    So – if the internet has replaced the local store and the pot bellied stove, that’s not 100% bad.
    We’ve just got to push forward and deal with it.

  293. lbendet September 28, 2011 at 5:43 pm #

    Re: Dylan Ratigan
    He’s starting a petition to stop corporate financing of our elections.
    I think this is something we all agree on regardless of political predilections:
    getmoneyout.com

  294. progress2conserve September 28, 2011 at 5:50 pm #

    “When it comes to that narrow window: If you have “the right” to tout your superstitions, have I not “the right” to ridicule those superstitions as the silliness I believe them to be?”
    -ozone, to caleb t-
    I’ve got to jump into this conversation, Ozone, because this is getting to the nub of a disagreement that you and I continue to have.
    And I keep thinking that in the real world, if we lived close together post-collapse, our neighbors would say of us – yeah, those two boys (P2c and O3) are pretty good with a saw, a rope, and a wrench – but – do NOT get them started on Religion and Atheism.
    And yeah, O3, you and I have had some pretty good discussions about religion. And I don’t mind admitting that I’ve learned a little bit from you.
    And I think I’d be happy to talk religion (and/or the lack thereof) with you most anytime.
    But we would have to have some ground rules.
    And referring to my “superstitions” as “silliness” and with “ridicule,” – – well –
    That might put us on a slippery slope that didn’t end up all that well for the neighbors.
    Mutual respect comes first, my friend.
    Especially in a world made by hand.

  295. bossier22 September 28, 2011 at 5:58 pm #

    Gen Curtis LeMay said if we had lost he would have been hanged as a war criminal.

  296. bossier22 September 28, 2011 at 5:59 pm #

    The victors write history.

  297. asoka. September 28, 2011 at 6:21 pm #

    Does that mean history will now be written in Mandarin?
    🙂

  298. Confusionism September 28, 2011 at 6:31 pm #

    Well if there’s one think Ron Paul and Noam Chomsky can agree on it’s the hegemonic overreach of the U.S. military.
    Peace

  299. Widespreadpanic7 September 28, 2011 at 6:48 pm #

    Hey Asoka, remember in the ’80s how economically invincible Japan seemed, and how everybody freaked out when they bought Rockefeller Center? Then in 1990 it all collapsed; they haven’t recovered yet. It is suggested the same thing might happen to China. What do you think?
    –WSP7

  300. asoka. September 28, 2011 at 6:56 pm #

    I think you have got to be kidding since the differences between Japan and China are enormous.

  301. Widespreadpanic7 September 28, 2011 at 7:20 pm #

    What are they?
    WSP7

  302. asoka. September 28, 2011 at 7:36 pm #

    Japan’s equity-market capitalization amounted to 41 percent of the world’s total market capitalization in 1989.
    By contrast, China’s equity markets currently account for only 0.5 percent of the value of global equity markets.
    China has a much more outward-looking growth and development model than Japan. In 2004, exports and imports combined equaled 74 percent of Chinese GDP, more than three times Japan’s 23 percent share.
    The Chinese have learned from the Japanese to resist U.S.-led political pressure for currency revaluation.
    The Chinese have been more open to foreign investment than Japan.
    China is communist, run by the CCP. China is nuclear weapons holder. China is exploring outer space. Japan never was any of that.
    China’s population is 10 times as large as Japan’s. China has the capability of taking over world production of just about everything. Japan never did.
    So talking about China today as though it were Japan 20 years ago might not accurately size up the situation of this fast-growing empire.
    China is just getting started and will soon overtake the United States both economically and militarily. Japan never was going to do that.
    Underestimate China at your own risk, Widespread.

  303. Widespreadpanic7 September 28, 2011 at 7:44 pm #

    Asoka;
    We’ll see what happens with China. As JHK points out in TLE, China’s problems are enormous, perhaps insurmountable. Time will tell.
    So far about 80 Wall Street protesters have been arrested in lower Manhattan by the NYPD. Question, if these kids can’t make bail, are they then shipped over to Rikers Island until their court date comes up?
    Yikes!
    –WSP7

  304. ozone September 28, 2011 at 8:18 pm #

    “But we would have to have some ground rules.
    And referring to my “superstitions” as “silliness” and with “ridicule,” – – well –
    That might put us on a slippery slope that didn’t end up all that well for the neighbors.
    Mutual respect comes first, my friend.
    Especially in a world made by hand.” -P2C
    Aha! You’ve fallen into my trap! ;o)
    (Not really, I gots’ no trap to fall into.)
    Not to put to fine a point on it, but respect for my “lack-of-belief” opinion would also be helpful/neighborly. (You already do, so no beef there a’tall.)
    I think you could reasonably assume that I’m [for the most part] a live and let live kinda guy that wouldn’t have a problem with religious folk who kept that aspect to home and hearth. I just don’t enjoy being looked at as “deficient” in some regard because I don’t have a personal ghost looking on at everything I do and tweaking my “moral compass” when I should stray from some man-made text. I don’t have a problem with being just another beast roaming this miraculous planet, marveling at both the the exquisite and the terrifying.
    (Okay, I’ll shut the hell up about that subject. Sorry, probably more than I needed to add, eh? “I said, keep it friggin’ short!” ;o)

  305. asoka. September 28, 2011 at 8:24 pm #

    As JHK points out in TLE, China’s problems are enormous, perhaps insurmountable.
    ————–
    Do you really believe that?
    Oh well, the more people who believe China has “enormous” problems, the better for China.
    Europe calls China
    : “Can you help us bail out Greece?”
    China’s response
    : “Don’t expect a bail-out from us. We have enormous problems, don’t ya know?”
    IMF calls China
    : “Can you help us out with the problems we are having with the euro? Can you purchase some European debt?
    China’s response: “We’re not saviours. We have to save ourselves! We have enormous problems, don’t ya know?”
    Just keep on believing that China has problems, keep up your skepticism about China, keep on giving China the perfect excuse, and China will keep on eating your lunch.

  306. asoka. September 28, 2011 at 8:34 pm #

    Ozone said: “…I don’t have a personal ghost looking on at everything I do and tweaking my “moral compass…”
    ================
    If you are referring to the HOLY GHOST of the Christian religion, it would be a mistake to rely on such a ghost to tweak any moral compass.
    The proper terminology for that ghost would be the HOLY RAPIST. That ghost engaged in breaking and entering. That ghost engaged in sexual assault, in non-consensual sexual relations (RAPE) with Mary. That ghost left her knocked up, barefoot, and pregnant.
    Anyone who follows such a HOLY RAPIST should be held suspect.
    Ain’t nothin’ moral about it.

  307. ozone September 28, 2011 at 8:41 pm #

    The theater of cruelty has been playing off-off-the-radar for practically Evermore.
    The Great Wurlitzer has given its’ blessing, and we’re now off to the fuggin’ races! It makes a compelling distraction, doesn’t it? …And a fine “us-n-them’uns” divisive subject as well.
    I’m sorta hoping the fascists take it all. Then we can have it out on the very stage of the theater of cruelty one last time without the attendant bullshit and veils. Let’s find out who “these people” really are, and what their vision of purity portends.
    Thanks for all the thoughtful comments (Wage too).
    Oh, BTW, the intertubes thingies (tm. Al Gore) keep me guessing that I’m headed in a direction that may be toward a [hopefully] sustainable future, just by comparison. If it doesn’t work out, hey, at least I gave it a shot. That and a buck-n-a-quarter might get me a cup o’ joe, but a personal satisfaction comes with’. (That’s about all I can ask for.)

  308. ozone September 28, 2011 at 8:47 pm #

    …”TOO fine a point on it”…
    Do I read a’fore I post? uh…sum-thens, but not now and agains.

  309. jackieblue2u September 28, 2011 at 8:50 pm #

    my debt doesn’t feel like wealth !
    if only.

  310. Widespreadpanic7 September 28, 2011 at 8:58 pm #

    My lunch? I’m a diesel mechanic, working on Yachts down here in S.Florida. What do i care about China?
    –WSP7

  311. jackieblue2u September 28, 2011 at 9:00 pm #

    My brother is in Italy right now.
    He gets around. I don’t, but I enjoy reading of others travels.
    In JHK’s earlier books which I love, he writes about American’s being like clowns. We even dress like clowns. go to Disneyland, eat at Mac D’s.
    the whole thing has always felt weird to me.
    And people are getting more and more lax about everything, they dress and look sloppy, and there is little to no respect or consideration. and the snotty bratty kids. wanting everything they see, throwing fits if they don’t get it. even the adults never grow up. some if not most.
    Our values are completely screwed up.
    I have NEVER eaten a Mac D’s hamburger.
    I’m not a veggietarian, but don’t consider most of the fast ‘food’ places as Real Food, and as a lifestyle, it is just sickening.
    “At night we drive (like shit) to mansions of glory in suicide machines.” springsteen.
    Jims’ earlier writings are my favorite. Check them out.

  312. anti soak September 28, 2011 at 9:01 pm #

    I heard a radio report on Meth in Hawaii and how
    ‘every Hawaiian family’ has a victim.
    The police went after weed so the natives started smoking Ice.
    Has really messed up Hawaii.

  313. anti soak September 28, 2011 at 9:03 pm #

    ‘China is just getting started..’
    Yes, maybe the Chinese can take over the land in Russia and Africa for its 1.5 [?] billion.

  314. Nathan September 28, 2011 at 9:41 pm #

    Wait Tripp are you saying that humans can change their future? That we are not all inextricably tied to the same fate as the hordes watching FOX NEWS at McDonald’s? It can’t be so. I am sure from the blogs that we read that all that is left for us to do is watch the news and figure out who fucked us this time, and who will be fucking next time. If we are right then we are smarter than everyone else that got fucked also but failed to figure out where the fucking came from.
    If you grow your own food, create your own business and develop your own economy while not writing endlessly about the fucking you are getting and where it is coming from you are going to really fuck up the only thing we have left. this point.

  315. Widespreadpanic7 September 28, 2011 at 9:49 pm #

    Yeah, Anti Soak, Crystal Meth, the scourge of rural America!
    Hawai, Missouri, the Dakotas, here in Central Florida, I’m sure in many other places, wrecking families and communities.
    Its one of my pet theories that all the Zombie movies and TV shows, like the current one on AMC, is a result of the ice epidemic throughout the US.
    Combine that with the Oxycodin addicted counties in Kentucky, Tennessee and Alabama, S Ohio and Indiana, the future doesn’t look too bright.
    –WSP7

  316. Qshtik September 28, 2011 at 9:52 pm #

    I’m not a veggietarian
    =============
    That might explain why you can’t spell vegetarian
    😉

  317. rippedthunder September 28, 2011 at 9:52 pm #

    Come on JB2U, you have never eaten at McDonalds? what are you anti-American or somethin? ;o) To tell you the truth I have not eaten there in years. Back in the late ’70s I worked as a roustabout in the oil fields in Wy and Mt. They were boom times. I lived in my Camper/van with my girl and a stray dog named Scruffy (a cockapoo picked from the pound in Rapid City S.D.) I was in the Red Rock desert at -30 below sleeping in the van. My crew thought I was nuts. I loved it. I spent 2 years on the road. Great times. McDonalds parking lots were great. Restrooms and dinner from 6 am to 1 am.Nobody ever bothered us. You could get a job in a day in any town you rolled up in. I can imagine the tar sands area in Canada is the same now. Worked a coupla’ weeks and moved on. I skied at most of the big resorts out west. Came back to my home town and here I sit 31 years later ready for retirement.

  318. myrtlemay September 28, 2011 at 10:00 pm #

    Glad for you, Tripp, per usual, but I have to admit you appear a bit smug with this post. For one reasons or many, a lot of us cannot follow your well chosen path. IMO, it’d be best not to gloat but instruct. You do so very beautifully on your blog site. I’ve tried to comment on it, but I cannot figure the g-damned thing out!

  319. myrtlemay September 28, 2011 at 10:15 pm #

    Yep. And you forgot to mention Disney World. Founded in 1954 or so by our favorite, Uncle Walt Disney. The guy was genious enough to envision the financial windfall that environmental destruction would bring, with strip malls and huge developments of tract-like housing. Even his new adventure park would bring to the beautiful orange groves of California acres of fallen trees and paved-over farmland. And inside of these “raptures”, one could find “Main Streets”, like those of 1900 (pre mass car production). People longingly went to visit such places (I was one), thinking the whole, broom swept clean “Yestervilles” a nostalgia for a much longed for time I personally never knew.
    The destruction went on to places like Kissimee, Florida, where prior to 1974, you were lucky to find a hamburger joint within 50 miles or so of where you were standing. Try that one today. Better yet, try visiting there after 30 more years, and you may get a Back-to-the-Future moment.

  320. bossier22 September 28, 2011 at 10:21 pm #

    Soak, You may be right about China but it could go either way. They commented when Italy asked for help, that they could not help people who made 40k a year when their people average 1 to 2k/yr.

  321. bossier22 September 28, 2011 at 10:25 pm #

    Kissimmee is an urban horror. I remember when it was rural.

  322. myrtlemay September 28, 2011 at 11:08 pm #

    There is a very touching short story (if you could call it that) of a boy whose family leaves Kissimmee for the (bigger) city. Long story short, the boy gets teased by classmates for being from a town called “KISS-A-ME”. JFC, I guess I just gave away my age ;0

  323. Zanrak September 28, 2011 at 11:20 pm #

    So Jim, I forwarded a link of your post this week to a real republican, alright, in fact, a banker…. sorry dude!
    Uh, but uh, you, me, in fact, everyone who posted here apparently needs to line up by this wall here…. Sorry Mr. K….. yeah, you too…. sorry…… really,….. love your writing!…… sorry……Uh, what’s that the guards are saying?… Cigaret anyone?….
    Awright, sorry, sorry,…. so I visited Ireland this summer….. don’t shoot me!

  324. BeantownBill September 29, 2011 at 12:29 am #

    I haven’t eaten in McD for years, but when I was 16 or 17 I loved their burgers. This was before I became a vegetarian/vegan. McD broke my heart when they went to $.19 a burger. That’s when I quit.

  325. asoka. September 29, 2011 at 12:56 am #

    McD broke my heart when they went to $.19 a burger. That’s when I quit.
    ===============
    LOL! Does anyone remember when White Castle hamburgers were six for a quarter? Ooops, I’m giving away my age.

  326. jarrollin September 29, 2011 at 1:34 am #

    I just read every comment in this blog. Aside from the occasional sludge of bigotry seeping in — it’s the best damn exchange of ideas I’ve seen since I spent a semester at Oberlin and they taped paper in the bathroom stalls. I’m glad I stumbled across “The End of Suburbia” when those Hollywood Videos were closing. If not for that portal, I’d not know about Kunstler and the other stalwarts that dare to face this unreal reality. Kudos to all for spectacular debate!

  327. metuselah September 29, 2011 at 7:56 am #

    The Power Elite
    The power elite are now scared! They are scared of the very economic instability they created! They are afraid that a reform movement will start to grow! They want us to be scared because in fear we are safely held captive. We must make the powerful afraid of us!
    The criminal classes of this country have seized power through the bending, writing, and selective application of the law! Today, the law works only to the interests of a few! The corporate oligarchs have created a feudalistic society! a new type of fascism! without clear identifiable leadership subject to challenge and reform! To reform, we must demand the restoration of the rule of law!
    The goals of these fascists include high unemployment, restricted access to healthcare, increasing costs for food, shelter and housing. We are locked into bondage through debt slavery! We are carefully observed through a growing internal security state. Our children wage endless war under the auspices of global empire. Deprivation, fear, propaganda, ideology, divide and conquer rhetoric, these are the tools used to subjugate people into a modern form of serfdom. The criminal class uses propaganda to encourage a population that is delusional, malleable, distracted and afraid. The corporate state knows no limits until human capital has been destroyed!
    We are a culture utterly awash with lies, childish messages that we can have all that we desire should we simply play by the oligarch’s rules. We are treated as good consumers instead of citizen patriots. With jingoistic vigor we falsely view our country, and its role in the world, through rose colored glasses. We deny the negative nature of our national imperatives.
    The vast majority of Americans live in fantasy about who we are. we revel in the values and nostalgia of old. Today, we no longer embody the moral virtues that the citizens of the greater world would find worthy to emulate. Our culture has become about the celebration of fame, sports, popularity, media, and idolatry of self. A country will prosper when its citizens aspire to the moral high ground, it will perish should we wager for our own advantage in a rigged corporate casino designed to benefit a few.
    Yearning for yesterday, Americans have retreated into the despair of magical thinking. Most believe that our politicians, in the democratic and republican parties, have our best interests in mind. American politicos only know one thing, how to compromise our future for the benefit of the power elite! We must reject the privilege of power that these traitors hold. We must favor integrity, justice, and truth!
    To counter the tide, true patriots must call for the rule of law. We must embrace radically different values. We must restore the idea of informed consent by taking responsibility for self and society. Today, We have a moral imperative to advocate for constructive change. We demand that change now! We demand change before it becomes too late to do so.
    .
    .
    Inflection Points: The Power Elite
    http://inpoints.blogspot.com/2011/09/power-elite.html?spref=tw
    ==
    It’s interesting how more and more people are starting to see the same things.

  328. Joe Palooka September 29, 2011 at 8:32 am #

    From the article: Why are the Nascar morons and Jesus jokers the only people in this country who can mount an aggressive political movement?
    The author likes to mention Jesus in many of his blogs, always in a negative tone. I am very careful when I mention that man’s name (Jesus) because there is something about him that is different. I see the TV salesman use his name all the time to make money, and all too many religions speak about him as if they know him well. It’s no wonder that people like Mr. Kunstler and millions of others are turned off by the mention of Jesus’ name, as it has been thrown about all too much.
    Anyway, the author should refrain from using that man’s name in a negative way and do his usual song and dance about oil, money, politics, etc., to get everyone worked up. That’s his sales pitch. However, before I mention the name of Jesus, I recall what the Jewish leaders said to the Roman Governor when they sent Jesus off to be nailed to the cross: “Let his blood be on us and on our children!” Now look at the history of the Jews since then. It’s not good.
    Take this comment from a man who does not go to any church or belong to any religion, but who is learning to quietly listen to the inner “knowing” of what is right and wrong in each moment. Something Jesus taught people how to do but the technique has been lost or twisted.

  329. lbendet September 29, 2011 at 8:44 am #

    JB2
    1. I too don’t eat McDonald’s and had one bite, threw the rest away and never looked back.
    2. Your debt is the bank’s gain.
    _________________________
    Comment on our right wing pres. hopefuls who won’t commit.
    I listened to part of Christie’s speeach to his gullible audience. At one point he said that Obama wants to raise the tax on the rich to 50% Fed. Later on Bill O’Reilly was on the Daily Show. He said the same thing.
    The meme is that O wants 50% and they are going to keep saying something they know is wrong. It’s from 34%-39% boo-hoo, just like before W. I noticed that although Stewart argued some bigger picture points, he did not correct O’Reilly’s number. So the big propaganda lie is codified till the election. Will Obama lose? (does he want to)
    Last but not lease, is Sarah Palin who is taunting her followers for money–(what else is there?)
    Oh, she’s trying to make up the crazy little mind of hers. Will she? won’t she, won’t she join the dance?(Donovan)
    She said she didn’t know whether it’s worth her efforts for the “title” (PODUS) and get this she sometimes wants to go rogue and (Running) might be too “shackley”.
    Q. only knows!

  330. bossier22 September 29, 2011 at 8:59 am #

    joe , I’m in the same boat as you as far as going to church. That was a very nice post. Even nonbelievers should accept the fact that Christianity is part of the foundation of western civilization.

  331. lbendet September 29, 2011 at 9:04 am #

    Apologies for the typos. Keyboard is very sticky in this weather.
    One point I keep making is that what’s happening isn’t too hard to define.
    We are entering a new phase of globalism a la Milton Friedman of the free markets without regulation, barriers to entry and investments abroad instead of here.
    Rampant privatization is the next phase. Public assets, infrastructure, parks etc. which the tax-payers paid for, will be sold to transnationals from other parts of the world. It comes in the form of sovereign wealth funds in risk averse investments.
    The Repubs will push for the privatization of everything they can from the adoption of no-bid contracts to fight endless wars on the taxpayer dime to creating the “toll booth” economy where you pay top dollar for all services that youR taxes used to pay for.
    The Dems are doing the same thing quietly.
    Check out Max Keiser where the disaster of privatization of roads and tolls cost so much they will nationalize it again and save the taxpayers $billions.
    Wake up folks–Observe, regognize, define and take issue.

  332. bossier22 September 29, 2011 at 9:07 am #

    History may be written in Mandarin because we destroyed ourselves. If not for that we would have nothing to fear from China. I could see them colonizing the west coast of NA. They have tremendous beachheads in San Francisco, Seattle and Vancouver.

  333. metuselah September 29, 2011 at 9:10 am #

    However, before I mention the name of Jesus, I recall what the Jewish leaders said to the Roman Governor when they sent Jesus off to be nailed to the cross: “Let his blood be on us and on our children!”
    ==
    People that believe that Roman/Vatican propaganda and idiotic lie deserve to be ridiculed.
    Hyam Maccoby analyzes and takes apart the web of lies span by the Vatican redactors, and his books are well worth getting acquainted with, for anyone with an inkling of a yearning for the truth. My bet, “Joe”, is that would not include you.

  334. progress2conserve September 29, 2011 at 9:29 am #

    “Asoka, I agree that the “immigrant taking our jobs” lament is a red herring. But isn’t the more relevant issue – and since Prog mentioned worker unions- immigrants lowering wages?”
    -buckstud-
    First, let us notice that asoka doesn’t answer your questions, buck. We must assume by this that he concedes that you are correct.
    MANY other posters have pointed out the essential insanity of US policy – we allow immigration of millions of low-skilled persons, and at the same time we allow the bulk of low-skill jobs to be outsourced from the country.
    ===============
    And “red herring,” buck? I don’t get the reference. A “red herring” is supposed to be a “distractor” type issue, right?
    Well, we’re talking about jobs in the US. Currently there are 14.1 million unemployed workers – unchanged since April.
    http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm
    And MORE than 1 million LEGAL immigrants are allowed into the US every year. If only 1/2 of those immigrants are able bodied adults w/o children – that’s still 500,000 new workers per year that either find jobs or go on unemployment.
    Over a 10 year period, that’s a minimum of 5,000,000 jobs that need to be created for the LEGAL immigrants.
    So, if LEGAL* immigration of workers had been reduced in 2000 – we would have only 9.1 million unemployed workers, currently – instead of 14.1 million.
    Simple logic. If there’s a “red herring” here, you are going to have to point it out, buck.
    *illegal immigration skews these numbers still further. But no one knows exactly how much, because even the NUMBERS are undocumented.
    -amazing-

  335. asoka. September 29, 2011 at 9:44 am #

    Welcome to CFN, Jarrollin!
    And thanks for the kudos. I agree that many brilliant minds inhabit this corner of cyberspace, and it is great we can exchange ideas even though we don’t all agree with one another.

  336. progress2conserve September 29, 2011 at 9:44 am #

    “Case in point for extremist on the left.”
    -lbendet, in reference to asoka.-
    That’s pretty funny, lbend. I don’t think I can improve on it.
    “How do you know how many illegals are getting into this country every day through our porous borders?
    It’s not good for anybody but the “job creators” who want to pay slave wages.”
    -lbendet, responding to asoka.-
    I can’t improve on this statement either, lbend. And it’s interesting that asoka. won’t argue with the essential truth of your post. He spends his time on platitudes like “immigrants are the heart of this country.” And he spends the rest of his time calling those who disagree with him on immigration “racist,” by using the proxy power of John Stanton, FAIR, and NumbersUSA. (even though NumbersUSA is referred to as “most reasoned,” – and by the SPLC, no less.
    ======================
    And my big argument against high immigration rates has little to do with economics, and nothing to do with race.
    My argument looks ahead to coming decades, and is concerned with the effect of the large and growing US population on GLOBAL ecosystems.
    And on the ability to the land mass of the US to support even today’s population – without fossil powered modern agriculture – which can not last forever.
    Barring an unlikely miracle of technotriumphalism.

  337. asoka. September 29, 2011 at 9:51 am #

    lbendet said: “she’s trying to make up the crazy little mind of hers. Will she? won’t she…”
    ————-
    Even if Palin became president, the question would remain: will she keep her oath and finish out her term of office, or won’t she?
    Her track record in that regard is not good. In fact, I think she has shot herself in the foot.

  338. asoka. September 29, 2011 at 10:11 am #

    ProCon, please reply to me directly instead of involving third parties in our dispute.
    Several times now you have made claims that SPLC thinks NumbersUSA is an OK organization, so I want to post exactly what SPLC wrote:

    FAIR, CIS and NumbersUSA are all part of a network of restrictionist organizations conceived and created by John Tanton, the “puppeteer” of the nativist movement and a man with deep racist roots. As the first article in this report shows, Tanton has for decades been at the heart of the white nationalist scene. He has met with leading white supremacists, promoted anti-Semitic ideas, and associated closely with the leaders of a eugenicist foundation once described by a leading newspaper as a “neo-Nazi organization.” He has made a series of racist statements about Latinos and worried that they were outbreeding whites. At one point, he wrote candidly that to maintain American culture, “a European-American majority” is required.

    I have apologized to you several times for calling you a racist. I will not apologize for saying you are promoting racist ideology through NumbersUSA by supporting Roy Beck financially. Beck was mentored by John Tanton and received financial support from Tanton to create NumbersUSA.
    I still hold out the hope that you might someday forgive me for calling you a racist and for praying for your wife’s recovery.
    Just leave lbendet, Buck Stud, etc. out of our ongoing conversation. It does please me that you continue to want to discuss your affiliations and financial support of anti-immigration organizations founded by racists, supremacists, and eugenicists, people with whom you apparently feel comfortable. Anything to stop those brown immigrants, right ProCon?

  339. progress2conserve September 29, 2011 at 10:18 am #

    Answer Lbend’s and Buck’s questions, why don’t you?

  340. asoka. September 29, 2011 at 10:22 am #

    ProCon said: “that’s still 500,000 new workers per year that either find jobs or go on unemployment.”
    ==============
    ProCon, can you cite a case of any immigrant, who comes here and cannot find a job, receiving unemployment?
    I am pretty sure a condition of receiving unemployment (which is administered by states) is that you have to have been employed and through employment you have contributed.
    I doubt your assertion “either find jobs or go on unemployment” is accurate. Have you ever tried to “go on unemployment”? There are criteria to be met. You don’t just apply and automatically start receiving handouts, which is the image you want to portray, an image that promotes resentment and hatred toward immigrants.
    If I am wrong, please tell me which state in these United States automatically gives out unemployment benefits to immigrants who can’t find jobs.

  341. asoka. September 29, 2011 at 10:28 am #

    ProCon, my time is limited and I prefer to devote time to refuting your misinformation.
    I provided historical immigration data to prove my point, and not only for your benefit.
    I have tried to rationally and objectively refute your alarmist anti-immigrant assertions.
    We are having a wonderful exchange of ideas and I thank you for keeping the subject of immigration alive on CFN.

  342. JDean September 29, 2011 at 10:46 am #

    Tea Party of Progressives? Aren’t those called Hippies?

  343. Widespreadpanic7 September 29, 2011 at 10:49 am #

    ‘Round here McDonalds has the best cup of coffee going … a large for only $1. And there are free refills! Different groups gather at the local McDonalds, Veterans, old folks playing cards, kids playing cribbage, young mothers out with their little ones for lunch, etc. There is always a chess game underway. Have you ever read Hemingways’s short story “A Clean, Well Lighted Place”? The MacDonalds here is a franchise owned by an immigrant family from Honduras. They seem extremely proud of it, as the largely immigrant staff is polite and well groomed, the service good, the restaurant spotless. No, I don’t see anything wrong with McDonalds. Would I eat there every day? No. But a burger here and there isn’t going to kill you. I’ll admit indulging once in awhile. Yea, I’d rather be lunching at the Ritz each noon, or, as was revealed last week, attending one of AG Eric Holder’s $600,000 catered luncheons in Washington where a muffin costs $700, but hey, I’m just a mechanic, not and elite Dem Pol. Sorry to say, I detect a little elitism here in the CFN.
    –WSP7

  344. progress2conserve September 29, 2011 at 10:53 am #

    “Directed by Roy Beck, who has written extensively on environmental and financial issues, NumbersUSA is the most reasoned of the anti-immigration groups, offering information on the relationship between immigration and the environment.”
    -splc, regarding NumbersUSA-
    “the most reasoned”
    Seems pretty obvious, doesn’t it.
    And this is pointless. Asoka. doesn’t want to consider the negative aspects of US population growth due to immigration.
    He wants to label the whole idea “natavist,” by using the unverified and unexamined opinions of one organization, the SPLC.
    And of course, a legal immigrant has to work for a while before being LEGALLY? eligible for unemployment. But his children and pregnant wife/girlfriend can go on to AFDC immediately.
    And I’m against all immigration to the US, regardless of the melanin ratios of the immigrants. (But I’m, apparently, still a racist because I support an organization that is alleged to be racist based on decades old allegations from an organization (splc) that itself is devoted to questions of race.)
    Asoka – under the guise of “welcome all/no borders” or something – is an apologist for the elite capitalists in the US, who want cheap labor and maximum numbers of consuming mouths. And he is an apologist for the ever higher US consumption of the world’s resources by a growing US.
    But he refuses to consider the long term implications. Or he doesn’t care.
    And he won’t answer the reasonable questions of Buck and Lbend – related to my original post.

  345. Widespreadpanic7 September 29, 2011 at 11:03 am #

    Hey Metusaleh, you don’t have much good to say about us Christians, but you are silent on the Muslims who surround your country, millions of whom would like to see you annihilated. Why is that? Right now Israel is facing existential threats like never before … in the end its going to be armies with majority Christian soldiers, from The USA and GB, who come to your aid.
    –WSP7

  346. trippticket September 29, 2011 at 11:13 am #

    LMAO. One of the hardest things about hanging out here is the general preference for laying blame over doing something about it! Greer’s blog is much better for that…

  347. asoka. September 29, 2011 at 11:17 am #

    “But he refuses to consider the long term implications. Or he doesn’t care.”
    —————–
    I considered the long-term implications of global population growth 40 years ago and decided to get a vasectomy. If you chose to have children and if they are now consuming and polluting in the USA, you have that to answer for.
    I have definitely considered the long-term implications of GLOBAL population growth. I have advocated for GLOBAL population decrease all my life and I took personal responsibility.
    What I refuse to do is advocate for spending USA taxpayer money on training and arming border patrols, building walls, arresting, imprisoning, and deporting human beings simply because they want to live and work on one side of a border rather than another.
    Even if you could wave a magic wand and stop all immigration into the USA, the world’s population would not be affected. Which side of a border you choose to live on does not reduce GLOBAL population.

  348. progress2conserve September 29, 2011 at 11:32 am #

    The US uses more planetary resources per capita, than most other countries.
    Therefore population growth in the US causes more use of planetary resources than does population growth elsewhere.
    Indisputable facts, right?

  349. bossier22 September 29, 2011 at 11:40 am #

    What you don’t consider is quality of life here. You only see as a racial issue. I admit I see immigration from a racial perspective but also from an environmental, financial, and common sense aspect. i don’t think Prog considers the the racial aspect at all.

  350. progress2conserve September 29, 2011 at 11:50 am #

    Next, he’ll be telling you how much better life is in third world countries. Which is true in some respects. But then he’ll say that we need to admit more immigrants to the US – so that they can improve the quality of their lives over what they have in third world countries.
    It’s OK to be in favor US population growth of 3 million per year – because he had a vasectomy 40 years ago.
    Hitler would have been a better leader – if only he had stayed in a Holiday Inn Xpress last night.
    Endless circular arguments –

  351. Mrs. Soake September 29, 2011 at 11:53 am #

    For those responding to “Soak” please refer to my previous statement this week concerning his current mental health problems.

  352. bossier22 September 29, 2011 at 11:58 am #

    I have not traveled much abroad but from what i have seen I don’t want it to be like that here. It seems to me that must be the goal of the elite .
    I can’t get what i saw in Guatemala out of of mind. I was only there four days and saw all i wanted of third world paradise.

  353. Widespreadpanic7 September 29, 2011 at 12:02 pm #

    ProConserve;
    Asoka seems to play the role of ‘Agent Provocatuer” here, taking an extreme, contradictory Lib stance on all issues. Why? Why not? Probably just to piss everybody off. That’s as good enough reason as any. I’m sure he doesn’t believe half the shit he says. This is a good site, alot of fun, but I notice the posters with the most sensible and balanced outlooks, for example you and BeanTown Bill, get hammered the worst. That’s just the way it is.
    -WSP7

  354. progress2conserve September 29, 2011 at 12:11 pm #

    “I can’t get what i saw in Guatemala out of of mind.” -bossier-
    Yeah, I understand, Bossier.
    And before this recent Georgia immigration bill passed, I could have shown you a couple of old trailer parks in northern Georgia that looked EXACTLY like Guatemalan slums.
    Trash in the streets. Garbage everywhere.
    Sewerage flowing into the creeks.
    A third world slum is a third world slum – even in the US – and regardless of the skin color of the inhabitants.
    And that is certainly the direction that the US is trending at present. Regardless of the skin color of our residents.
    ============
    It’s almost enough to make one want to be a member of one or more of those US elites – maybe even become part of those dreaded PTB that we spend so much CFN time reviling.

  355. bossier22 September 29, 2011 at 12:21 pm #

    We have the same thing in our county, just not in the percentages of guatemala. There are a couple of “settlements” that the sheriffs are reluctant to go to and it is all white people. These very sad situations are on the increase unfortunately. When export jobs while importing more poor people the results are predictable.
    Credible border/immigration control would be a job creator.

  356. asoka. September 29, 2011 at 12:24 pm #

    ProCon, you have mentioned that you are involved in the timber business. And you have expressed concerns over population increase in the USA, but your assumption that more population means less resources just doesn’t hold.
    There are 28% MORE timber lands in the USA now than in 1952? In spite of the arrival of millions of immigrants in the last sixty years.
    Likewise with agriculture. Per capita grain supplies have increased by over 24 percent since 1950. In spite of the arrival of millions of immigrants…
    In 1972 one-third of US bodies of water were safe for fishing and swimming. Today, two-thirds are. In spite of the arrival of millions of immigrants…
    Immigrants arrive in the millions … and quality of life in the United States improves.
    You want to argue this some more? I am willing. But please provide some facts.
    And don’t forget about the concept of population density when comparing USA to other countries. We can easily take care of 600 million in the USA and our quality of life would probably improve even more, given the improvement trends of the last sixty years.
    Immigration (both legal and “illegal”) is good for the USA. Immigration is US (except for those native to this land).

  357. asoka. September 29, 2011 at 12:35 pm #

    CORRECTION
    There are 28% MORE timber lands in the USA now than in 1952!
    SOURCE: Roger Sedjo, “Forests: Conflicting Signals.” in The True State of the Planet, 177–210.

  358. asoka. September 29, 2011 at 12:38 pm #

    Just in case you question the credibility of the author I cited:

    Roger Sedjo is a senior fellow and the director of RFF’s forest economics and policy program. His research interests include forests and global environmental problems; climate change and biodiversity; public lands issues; long-term sustainability of forests; industrial forestry and demand; timber supply modeling; international forestry; global forest trade; forest biotechnology; and land use change. He has written or edited 14 books related to forestry and natural resources.

  359. bossier22 September 29, 2011 at 12:39 pm #

    Timber is more plentiful and water cleaner because of the epa and bureau of land management not because of immigration. More likely that is better despite population increases.

  360. asoka. September 29, 2011 at 12:45 pm #

    Yes, but ProCon seems to have a built-in bias against immigrants (of all colors) and is spreading misinformation and fear with false claims that immigration deteriorates the quality of life in the USA, that we should go back to some magical mythical number in his head.
    What is frustrating is knowing his ancestors were slaveholders who themselves were immigrants.
    What is doubly frustrating is he does not respond to the peer-reviewed literature and the numbers I cite showing that with the arrival of millions of immigrants CRIME HAS GONE DOWN (I cited the statistics), AIR QUALITY, WATER QUALITY HAVE IMPROVED, AND IMMIGRANTS ARE NET-CONTRIBUTORS TO OUR SOCIETY.

  361. anti soak September 29, 2011 at 12:50 pm #

    Ignore Asoka, he is a one trick phoney!
    Oops, Pony.

  362. asoka. September 29, 2011 at 12:51 pm #

    Credible border/immigration control would be a job creator.
    ===============
    But not a productive kind of job creation. Defense and security can “create” thousands of jobs but those jobs don’t have an economic multiplier effect like jobs in other employment sectors do.
    Take TSA and HSA which Bush created. 250,000 “jobs” that are wasting taxpayer money and producing nothing. (Some say TSA stands for “thousands standing around.”)
    Stop throwing money at imaginary problems. Embrace immigrants and let’s all work together to make a better world with jobs that meet human needs and do something useful like feed, house, or clothe people.

  363. asoka. September 29, 2011 at 12:56 pm #

    One? No, multitudes… and I cite my sources.

  364. Qshtik September 29, 2011 at 12:57 pm #

    Last but not lease,
    for the “title” (PODUS)
    ============
    Grroaannn!
    least
    POTUS

  365. asoka. September 29, 2011 at 1:07 pm #

    It’s almost enough to make one want to be a member of one or more of those US elites
    ————–
    Trash? Garbage? Sewage?
    [sarcasm on]
    My God! These are intractable problems! We cannot solve these kinds of problems! This is harder than rocket science!
    [sarcasm off]
    I have been to slums in India, Mexico and South America. And I have been to elite areas in Europe and the USA.
    Judgements about “quality of life” based purely on the visibility of trash are specious. The slums of South America are much more alive than the gated compounds where millionaires live. That is my experience. YMMV.

  366. bossier22 September 29, 2011 at 1:14 pm #

    Better than no job at all.
    I”m definitely with Prog on population growth contributing to deteriorating quality of life in the USA. It just so happens immigrants are fueling population growth along with balkanization. Why would we want a population of 600M? Please tell me. No one from here wants to move to China or India.

  367. bossier22 September 29, 2011 at 1:27 pm #

    I read where the fondest wish of the moneyed class in China is to leave China.

  368. metuselah September 29, 2011 at 1:28 pm #

    Hey Metusaleh, you don’t have much good to say about us Christians, but you are silent on the Muslims who surround your country, millions of whom would like to see you annihilated. Why is that?
    ==
    Maybe when you imperialist fucks stop arming these jihadis and stop your propagandizing for them and stop slicing and dicing my country into smaller and smaller parts, I’ll have something good to say about you fuckers. As for the Roman imperialist web of lies that you Vatican fucks call the “New Testament”, you can go shove it up your collective ass, you lying thieving bloodthirsty nazi reptiles.

  369. asoka. September 29, 2011 at 1:30 pm #

    Why would we want a population of 600M? Please tell me. No one from here wants to move to China or India.
    ———————–
    I did not say I “want” a population of 600 million. I said the USA could easily handle that, based on population density and resource availability, without sacrificing quality of life.
    ProCon is making scary claims which scapegoat legal and “illegal” immigrants, for what he imagines will be future problems. His scare tactic is imaginary because the facts don’t jive (hello, Q) based on the trends of the last 60 years. Millions of immigrants and improved water and air quality, reduced crime rates, more per capita agricultural production, more timber lands, etc.
    And you are wrong that “no one” wants to move to India and China.

  370. Widespreadpanic7 September 29, 2011 at 1:30 pm #

    No, that’s not quite true, Bossier.
    Before I began chiming in here I went back into the archives. Asoka was supposed to be moving to an un-named 3rd world country sometime last year, an expatriate, if you will. Seems he’s still here. I’ve been to some 3rd world shitholes myself, not many, mostly as 2nd engineer on some of these Yachts I work on. Why anybody would voluntarily live in one is beyond me. I’m reminded of Thomas Hobbs description of human life in a state of nature; short, nasty and brutal. Take a look at what is happening in Mexico right now, the beheadings last week, the headless torsos hanging off bridge overpasses, a bag of severed heads dumped in front of an elementary school. And that’s just for starters. Maybe that’s what Asoka wants here? I know, I know, its America’s fault! What isn’t?
    –WSP7

  371. ozone September 29, 2011 at 1:55 pm #

    Q.
    PODUS would be the correct acronym.
    President of DUH United States.

  372. anti soak September 29, 2011 at 1:58 pm #

    The Chinese billionaire who is investing $200 million to develop a resort in Iceland said he will use the project as a springboard for resorts in other Nordic countries.
    Huang Nubo, 55, said he plans to establish resorts in countries such as Denmark, Finland and Sweden within five years. He’s in talks to buy 300 square kilometers (116 square miles) of land in Iceland for $8.8 million from five farmers
    and expects the Iceland government’s decision on the approval of the purchase within two weeks.

  373. Qshtik September 29, 2011 at 1:59 pm #

    THIS IS A QUIZ
    What commenter at this site comes to mind when you read the word definition below?
    sophistry
    — n , pl -ries
    1. a. a method of argument that is seemingly plausible though actually invalid and misleading
    b. the art of using such arguments
    2. subtle but unsound or fallacious reasoning
    3. an instance of this; sophism

  374. asoka. September 29, 2011 at 2:02 pm #

    WSP7 said: “I’ve been to some 3rd world shitholes myself…”
    —————
    Does anybody wonder why “they” hate us? Nobody likes their country disrespected like that.
    WSP7 says he has “been to” … did you leave the airport?
    You have to live full time in a place to appreciate its culture. It took me four years living full time in South America just to become fluent in Spanish. With language whole new insights became available.

  375. asoka. September 29, 2011 at 2:10 pm #

    THIS IS A QUIZ
    What commenter at this site comes to mind when you read the word definition below?
    anal
    1. to be really up tight
    2. to pay excessive attention to detail
    3. to be a total tight-ass

  376. Widespreadpanic7 September 29, 2011 at 2:47 pm #

    I just had to ask, huh Metusaleh?
    That’s not a very nice way to speak to your best friends and allies!
    Besides, we’re Methodists.
    Ya had me laffin’, tho. That was one hell of a tongue lashing!
    –WSP7

  377. wagelaborer September 29, 2011 at 2:49 pm #

    It’s prog who has become a one-trick pony, with his immigration obession.
    If you want to put your time, talent and money into increasing jobs in the US, and decreasing Mexican immigration, then work to overthrow NAFTA, which shipped US jobs to Mexico, dumped subsidized American corn into Mexico, and threw thousands of peasants off of their land.
    Get the US military out of Mexico, and the drug wars and mass murders will stop.
    I am not a supporter of mass immigration, but you’re looking at results, not causes.
    It’s like Vlad complaining about all the damn black people around, and ignoring that they came here involuntarily.
    What really annoys me about your obession with immigration is that it leads you to support more citizen oppression and Big Government intrusion into our privacy, with Real IDs, and police surveilance. Don’t you see that this is the real aim of all the hoopla about illegal immigration?
    It could be stopped immediately, if you threw a few employers into jail, or, (because I think we have too many people in prison already), fined them heavily.
    But they don’t do that, do they? They support low-paid hordes for their corporate masters, and then use the anger of the displaced to further their oppression.
    Sweet! For the ruling overlords. Not so much for us.
    It’s like Vlad complaining about all the damn black people around, and ignoring that they came here involuntarily.

  378. wagelaborer September 29, 2011 at 3:01 pm #

    It’s like people complaining about the Chinese buying land and assets with the money they’ve made from exporting goods.
    People who live in a country that invades and steals when they want something have no right to complain about people who merely purchase what they want, in the marketplace.
    And people who live in a country that borrows money from China in order to invade other countries and steal their stuff, have no right to complain when their creditor can afford to buy real estate.
    And fear mongering about a Chinese military invasion is projection on a massive scale.
    Who spends more than all other countriers on their military? Who has bases all over the world? Who invades other countries with their military?
    Hint: it’s not China.

  379. Widespreadpanic7 September 29, 2011 at 3:06 pm #

    Is it Canada?
    WSP7

  380. wagelaborer September 29, 2011 at 3:08 pm #

    OK, that made me laugh.

  381. Joe Palooka September 29, 2011 at 3:24 pm #

    Did I mention the Vatican or any specific religion? No, I didn’t. You have made a wrong assumption. Is everything in the Bible to be taken for fact without question? No, it is up to one to discern for him or her self, as well as with any book, especially today and the abundance of books and writings. As for my take on Jesus and his being put to death, just read the history of the Jewish people and make your own decision. As for your foul language, anger, and judgement of people, it only serves to make you feel right, or self-rightous, not truly right. Some advice: hating wrong and feeling right about it is NOT the same as simply loving what is right.

  382. Joe Palooka September 29, 2011 at 3:25 pm #

    Did I mention the Vatican or any specific religion? No, I didn’t. You have made a wrong assumption. Is everything in the Bible to be taken for fact without question? No, it is up to one to discern for him or her self, as well as with any book, especially today and the abundance of books and writings. As for my take on Jesus and his being put to death, just read the history of the Jewish people and make your own decision. As for your foul language, anger, and judgement of people, it only serves to make you feel right, or self-rightous, not truly right. Some advice: hating wrong and feeling right about it is NOT the same as simply loving what is right.

  383. Joe Palooka September 29, 2011 at 3:28 pm #

    Did I mention the Vatican or any specific religion? No, I didn’t. You have made a wrong assumption. Is everything in the Bible to be taken for fact without question? No, it is up to one to discern for him or her self, as well as with any book, religious or not, especially today and the over-abundance of books and writings. As for my take on Jesus and his being put to death, just read the history of the Jewish people and make your own decision. As for your foul language, anger, and judgement of people, it only serves to make you feel right, or self-rightous, not truly right. Some advice: hating wrong and feeling right about it is NOT the same as simply loving what is right.

  384. Joe Palooka September 29, 2011 at 3:33 pm #

    Thank you. I just replied to someone else who was very angry. The internet page would bomb out after my hitting the submit button, but it must have worked, as I now see three of the same replies. I guess it will be three times the fodder for people here to swear at me, correct my spelling, call me all sorts of things, and so on. I wasn’t going to comment, but I see the author mention Jesus so much that I had to write what came to mind. All the best.

  385. bossier22 September 29, 2011 at 3:40 pm #

    No one including WSP7 said the people who live in those shitty circumstances were bad. There is just too many of them. way too many for us to take in without creating the same shitty conditions here. We are doing a good job of that on our own. Wage is right NAFTA is one of the things that contributed to worsening conditions. People listened to Al Gore instead of Ross Perot on that one.

  386. metuselah September 29, 2011 at 3:44 pm #

    Did I mention the Vatican or any specific religion?
    ==
    Who do you think wrote and rewrote that imperialist pagan Roman propaganda that you fucks call the “New Testament”? It certainly wasn’t Jesus. As to my anger, it is well placed. When you thieving filthy parasites all burn in ovens, while I make a fortune on war, thieving from you, maligning you, and orchestrating your destruction, then you come to me about issues concerning misplaced anger. As it is, you can go fuck yourself; you and take on “history”.

  387. metuselah September 29, 2011 at 3:44 pm #

    you and ^your take on “history”

  388. Widespreadpanic7 September 29, 2011 at 4:15 pm #

    Joe Palooka, that was a decent, measured response to Metusaleh. Your goodness shines thru.
    As for Metusaleh, I’m starting to think he is not a gentleman. I might be wrong.
    –WSP7

  389. metuselah September 29, 2011 at 4:24 pm #

    Your goodness shines thru.
    ==
    You slimy hucksters keep padding each other on the back. “History” is not yet written. And that’s my take on history.

  390. Widespreadpanic7 September 29, 2011 at 4:30 pm #

    Well its pretty clear now, Metusaleh, you don’t like us, the Yanks up in the North and us G.O.B.s in the South.
    Alrighty then, that’s how we will have to leave it.
    –WSP7

  391. metuselah September 29, 2011 at 4:42 pm #

    No, I don’t like liars and slimy fucks that purposely ignore the truth. You sanctimonious fucks made inventing lies and ignoring the truth a professional sport and a national character trait. And I’m here to hold a mirror to you nazi/fascist fucks, to show you exactly who and what you are.

  392. asoka. September 29, 2011 at 4:54 pm #

    Metuselah claims to be an Israeli citizen and claims to be calling out liars and their lies.
    But I never heard him calling out Israel on its past lies, such as saying:
    that Hamas consistently violated the six-month truce that Israel observed and then refused to extend it;
    that Israel therefore had no choice but to destroy Hamas’s capacity to launch missiles into Israeli towns;
    that Hamas is a terrorist organisation, part of a global jihadi network;
    and that Israel has acted not only in its own defence but on behalf of an international struggle by Western democracies against this network.
    Those are all lies, but Metuselah will not call out the liars in Israel.

  393. Qshtik September 29, 2011 at 5:06 pm #

    You slimy hucksters keep padding each other on the back.
    =========
    Obtuselah, do you ever read what you have just written PRIOR to hitting Submit? You know, like a sanity check? I mean, what the fuck does “padding” someone on the back mean.
    I live in a town heavily populated with Jews and I know a lot of them. On average they’re an exceptionally smart bunch. You, on the other hand, are dumber than dirt and a disgrace to your people.
    The word is patting asshole.

  394. asoka. September 29, 2011 at 5:19 pm #

    Q said: “The word is patting asshole.”
    ———————
    Q, when are you ever going to learn proper grammar? Your failure to use punctuation is atrocious. You should use commas before or surrounding the name or title of a person directly addressed.
    Examples:
    Will you, Q, ever learn to use proper punctuation, spelling, and grammar?
    Your constant, repeated mistreatment of the English language is truly maddening.

  395. Buck Stud September 29, 2011 at 5:40 pm #

    Prog,
    I often read and hear that undocumented workers are doing the jobs that Americans prefer not to do. My red herring reference was directed at this assertion, albeit, not with a lot of certainty. I suppose just about anybody will do just about anything – including “sucking farts out of old bus seats” – if the pay is right. But that’s probably an exaggeration. I’m sure some Americans will lay bricks; far fewer will carry hod or do roofing. And fewer still will clean out the “No-Tell Motel” for minimum wage. And even less will pick lettuce.
    So perhaps it’s not a red herring after all, although that might be changing since the recession. But, all in all, very few American youths want to roll up their sleeves and get their backs into their living, or so I believe.
    Am I wrong?

  396. asoka. September 29, 2011 at 5:55 pm #

    Buck Stud, you are right. UFW advertised to train and hire workers
    Three-quarters of all crop workers working in American agriculture were born outside the United States. According to government statistics, since the late 1990s, at least 50% of the crop workers have not been authorized to work legally in the United States. We are a nation in denial about our food supply. As a result the UFW has initiated the “Take Our Jobs” campaign. Farm workers are ready to welcome citizens and legal residents who wish to replace them in the field. We will use our knowledge and staff to help connect the unemployed with farm employers. Just fill out the form to the right and continue on to the request for job application.
    http://www.takeourjobs.org/
    If anybody thinks “illegals” are taking jobs from Americans, here is their chance to take the jobs back. The UFW will help you do it. Funny they did not get any takers from outraged and misinformed citizens. No legal citizen wants a job that may include using hand tools such as knives, hoes, shovels, etc. with duties that may include tilling the soil, transplanting, weeding, thinning, picking, cutting, sorting & packing of harvested produce; that may set up & operate irrigation equip. No legal citizen wants work that is performed outside in all weather conditions (Summertime 90+ degree weather) & is physically demanding requiring workers to bend, stoop, lift & carry up to 50 lbs on a regular basis.

  397. asoka. September 29, 2011 at 6:02 pm #

    ProCon said: “Well, we’re talking about jobs in the US. Currently there are 14.1 million unemployed workers…”
    ==================
    And none of them want to do stoop labor harvesting crops under a 95 degree sun. The UFW offered to train and find employers for any unemployed citizen. The UFW offered to replace undocumented workers with legal citizens. They got no takers because those 14.1 million unemployed do not want to do farm work being done by undocumented workers. Therefore, jobs are not being taken away from “Americans” — that word is incorrectly used by citizens of the United States.
    Anyone born in the Western Hemisphere in North American, Central America or South America is an AMERICAN.

  398. Buck Stud September 29, 2011 at 6:12 pm #

    If future world population is truly the concern, shouldn’t affluent countries try to lift as many people as possible in the world out of poverty, even if that means opening up the borders of their own very affluent countries?
    In fact, because those in poverty can afford little, they escape to those pleasures and joys that are available to them and that soften the edge of their own dire circumstances: sex and procreation.
    But honestly, it’s not just about future population growth and well-being of the planet; it’s about quality of life in the here and now.

  399. Widespreadpanic7 September 29, 2011 at 6:13 pm #

    Ya Buck, I think you might be wrong. All the jobs I had when I was a kid and young adult growing up in Central Florida, delivering newspapers, washing dishes in a restaurant, landscaping, even farm work outside Orlando, are now being done exclusively by adult Hispanics. I don’t see any high school kids doing those jobs anymore. They’re not available. They been cut off at the nuts in their own nation by Mexicans and Central Americans.
    –WSP7

  400. Widespreadpanic7 September 29, 2011 at 6:19 pm #

    Besides, with an unemployment rate of 9.1%, and an unofficial rate of perhaps 15%, how is there any justification of letting anybody in here at all, legal or illegal? We just don’t need anymore people right now. Come down here a take a look at these cities. They are appalling!
    –WSP7

  401. progress2conserve September 29, 2011 at 6:26 pm #

    “…not available. They been cut off at the nuts in their own nation by Mexicans and Central Americans.”
    -wsp, referring to jobs he and I did as kids-
    Bingo, WSP!
    Add in 20 years of rhetoric about immigrants “doing the jobs ‘Americans’ won’t do.”
    Add in depression of wages because of too many low skill and adult immigrant workers.
    And we wonder why no native born kids want to work?
    Remember – it’s something about US society that does this to our kids.
    I’ll guarantee you that the children of those immigrants will NOT be willing to do all those jobs that “‘Americans’ don’t want to do.” -either.
    So we’ll bring in the next wave of immigrants – in a cycle that will never end until the fossil fuels end –
    At which point life for the survivors will likely become more nasty, more brutish, and shorter.

  402. rippedthunder September 29, 2011 at 6:34 pm #

    This used to be a peak oil-energy decent site. That train of conversation seems to be gone now. This site has become a political/ religious/racial bullshit clusterfuck. It is no wonder that some of the great posters are long gone. I will move on with out regrets. From the great maple sugar country from the north , Happy trails, and take care!

  403. trippticket September 29, 2011 at 6:48 pm #

    Wait, wait! I don’t know if I’m included in RT’s good posters list, but I’m back, baby! Couldn’t hang without internet at home. Went a little crazy(er) without it.
    Hey, it took me 6 tries to quit smoking, and 3 to give up cable for good. This was just our first, and obviously feeble, attempt at giving up the internet ahead of schedule.
    So let the time suck begin!! It’s good to be back…

  404. progress2conserve September 29, 2011 at 6:56 pm #

    “It’s prog who has become a one-trick pony, with his immigration obession.”
    -wage-
    That’s pretty perceptive, Wage. I’ve gotten involved (with some success) with immigration control – out in the real world. And I don’t see any other recurrent CFN-type issues that are more important to the long term fate of humans on Earth – than US population growth. (and that’s a separate issue from quality of life, buck.)
    And if it weren’t for asoka. trying to argue with me – I wouldn’t make but one or two posts on CFN every week that involved immigration.
    And for that, I guess we owe thanks to asoka.. Plus, he does think and talk like an immigration rights activist – when that’s the personality multitude that he’s using for the moment. So it’s nice of him to give us an example of the way those guys think and talk.
    “If you want to put your time, talent and money into increasing jobs in the US,”
    -wage-
    I don’t choose to worry about that. Jobs, jobs, jobs – Wage? Don’t tell me you are falling for the job/tax rhetoric, yourself. Careful, woman – or you’ll find yourself voting Republican. hah!
    “decreasing Mexican immigration…. overthrow NAFTA…. Mexico….. corn into Mexico, and threw thousands of peasants off of their land.
    Get the US military out of Mexico…. and mass murders will stop.”
    -wage, edited –
    Wage – Mexican immigration is miniscule compared to the overall LEGAL immigration into the US.
    Which is unsustainable – when the fossil fuel runs out. This is a peak oil site, right?

  405. progress2conserve September 29, 2011 at 7:03 pm #

    Damn it Ripped! Would you quit threatening to leave us! You know you can’t do that. Can you?
    Seriously, dude – I’d be glad to talk about something besides immigration.
    And I’d certainly like to have responses from someone besides the a. guy.
    ================
    Welcome back TrippTicket!!

  406. progress2conserve September 29, 2011 at 7:12 pm #

    “If future world population is truly the concern, shouldn’t affluent countries try to lift as many people as possible in the world out of poverty, even if that means opening up the borders of their own very affluent countries?”
    -buck-
    Buck, that’s a wonderful sentiment. But the real world doesn’t work that way, IMO. American “style” free market capitalism and the Grow GROW GROW! mantra – has come to dominate the planet.
    That’s why our rapidly increasing population – only sets the tone for more and more of the same.
    To help others.
    We must first help ourselves.
    And slow the mania.

  407. Widespreadpanic7 September 29, 2011 at 7:27 pm #

    Ripthunder;
    Last weeks thread was pretty much all about Peal Oil and energy depletion.
    A little bit off track this week, but not that far. Jim sets the course on Monday; that’s where we go (the rest of the week)
    –WSP7

  408. progress2conserve September 29, 2011 at 8:05 pm #

    A little bit off track this week, but not that far.
    -wsp-
    Yeah, widespread, I concur. Actually, budizwizer made one post last week that triggered a lot of that good discussion. And budiz, like RT, has been known to criticize the thread for not staying properly on the “peak everything” topic.
    So, all it takes is a nudge, sometimes, to get us on track around here.
    ===================
    BTW, widespreadpanic, I’ve been meaning to ask.
    Are you named for the band?
    Or for the collapse scenario?

  409. trippticket September 29, 2011 at 8:45 pm #

    What a welcome back! Long, thought out post, held for approval by “the administrator”! Arrgggh!!! I’m going to try to post this in serial form.
    Interesting little story tonight to accompany my return. I couldn’t help checking out a copy of Masanobu Fukuoka’s “The One-Straw Revolution” today from the library. I have a copy of my own, but my little brother has been “borrowing” it for the last two years. I’m a bit pressed for research time before my 90 minute talk on Fungi in the Landscape at the Georgia Master Gardeners convention October 22nd, but nothing centers me like Fukuoka, and it only takes two or three days to read, even if you’re busy.

  410. trippticket September 29, 2011 at 8:46 pm #

    Reading the Intro by Frances Moore Lappe’ and the Foreword by Wendell Berry from the brand new copy of this old favorite, I noticed the photo of former college football national champion (1980) head coach of the Georgia Bulldogs, and long-time athletic director, Vince Dooley. This book was purchased with a grant posted in honor of Coach Dooley…who was Bulldog coach during the years I grew up in Athens, GA, watching Herschel Walker run over the competition on the way to ousting Notre Dame for the title that year. And it is a title purchased by the local library from a list of titles they requested from me!

  411. jarrollin September 29, 2011 at 9:00 pm #

    There have got to be tie-ins between peak oil and immigration … But I don’t see where in this thread anybody has hit on one.

  412. jarrollin September 29, 2011 at 9:03 pm #

    What a tangled web we weave — or, does some other adage pertain more. Perhaps — What goes around comes around? Or, We reap what we sow?
    Good anecdote, in any case.

  413. Widespreadpanic7 September 29, 2011 at 9:15 pm #

    PoC;
    re: Widespreadpanic7
    You know I hadn’t really been aware of the band. I am now, and they are good.
    I just thought the phrase “WideSpreadPanic” would be a humorous and apt title for posting on a site such as this one. I like a little humor served up with my doomsday scenarios.
    That’s the story. I’m out on workman’s comp right now so I have time to f—k around here. Before I posted anything I went back in the archives to get a ‘lay of the land’, so to speak. Its amazing what people reveal. You’re in Georgia, Q’s in Jersey, WageLabe in Illinois etc. This place is a lot of fun, abusive people like Metusaleh not withstanding.
    –WSP7

  414. progress2conserve September 29, 2011 at 9:33 pm #

    “What a welcome back! Long, thought out post, held for approval by “the administrator”!”
    -tripp-
    Wow, that sux man. There have been a lot of grumblings about the CFN software while you’ve been gone, and a lot of screenname “bannings.” If you notice, I’m now on my third screenname.
    Lbendet is of the opinion that too many live links will get a poster’s name banned. I’m pretty sure I was banned one week for trying (REPEATEDLY!) to get the same block of text to post – over and over.
    For some reason, once you get the “held for review” message – it’s really hard to get that text to post.
    I think it’s just a weird algorithm in action, which is why I don’t take it personally – I’ll just create a new screenname and get back into the fray.
    Ixnei does think he was permabanned – by IP address banning – although there was no reason for that to have occurred.
    Fabian/TooTsie and Spider8M do appear to be gone for now – they are the only two I’d want to see permanently gone.
    Good luck with it and welcome back Tripp.
    And it will be easy for you to become Tripp.Ticket1, or something – if things don’t go well for you in getting your long post to post.

  415. messianicdruid September 29, 2011 at 10:18 pm #

    Article One, Section 8 doesn’t say anything about the USPS. It speaks of post roads and such being maintained by the United States Post Office which was reorganized { read disbanded } and replaced by the USPS. Another abrogation of duty to file under “punked”.

  416. Qshtik September 29, 2011 at 11:28 pm #

    nothing centers me like Fukuoka
    ================
    Yeah, me too. Back in the day I bought this good looking Asian chic a drink in a bar and as the joint was closing she asked if I’d like to go back to her place and Fukuoka.
    😉

  417. Qshtik September 30, 2011 at 12:00 am #

    This used to be a peak oil-energy decent site. That train of conversation seems to be gone now
    ===============
    Yeah, that train of conversation ended right before you told a personal anecdote about living in a camper with your girlfriend for two years in the parking lot of a McDonalds in Montana. Other people have a tendency to wander off topic but not you.
    P.S. It’s descent.

  418. Qshtik September 30, 2011 at 12:04 am #

    if I’d like to go back to her place and Fukuoka.
    ============
    I think I forgot to mention, this Asian chic’s name was Uoka.

  419. anti soak September 30, 2011 at 12:31 am #

    Or….This used to be a decent peak oil-energy site

  420. Qshtik September 30, 2011 at 12:50 am #

    UFW advertised to train and hire workers
    =========
    At 5:19PM Asoka chided me for failure to use a comma. At 5:55PM Asoka failed to end a sentence (above) with a period.
    But punctuation aside, Asoka’s main problem is that on day one he’s inconsistent, on day two he contradicts himself, and on day three he’s a sophist. Then on day four he starts the cycle over again on day one.
    Newbies here, like WideSpread, will see the truth in this as time goes by.

  421. xhalor September 30, 2011 at 2:12 am #

    “This site has become a political/ religious/racial bullshit clusterfuck.”
    Clusterfuck! He said the magic word!

  422. xhalor September 30, 2011 at 2:46 am #

    Today’s lecture on market conditions.
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8959221252413764426#docid=8650303724640681361

  423. metuselah September 30, 2011 at 3:14 am #

    a disgrace to your people
    ==
    This is not the first time you’ve been pushing that racist line. Go fuck yourself, you racist swine. You and “your people”.

  424. xhalor September 30, 2011 at 4:06 am #

    All right Q. Are you wearin’ the Fez again?

  425. Confusionism September 30, 2011 at 9:01 am #

    Dude, you’re slipping. That was an Asian chick, not chic.

  426. bossier22 September 30, 2011 at 9:17 am #

    while the central theme of the long emergency is peak oil, it also discusses overpopulation, emerging diseases, climate change, and how ethno/social interaction may be effected. In addition it touches on synergistic economic effects. Immigration is a side effect of the chaos these converging problems. So we are not to far off subject when discussing immigration on this blog. Same goes for racial and religious conflict,

  427. bossier22 September 30, 2011 at 9:22 am #

    Q, my typos suck.

  428. asoka. September 30, 2011 at 10:56 am #

    Article One, Section 8 doesn’t say anything about the USPS. It speaks of post roads and such being maintained by the United States Post Office which was reorganized { read disbanded } and replaced by the USPS. Another abrogation of duty to file under “punked”.

    It says, and I quote: “To establish Post Offices”
    MD, saying reorganization equals replacement, another abrogation of duty, is specious.
    Article One, Section 8 also says: “To raise and support Armies”
    Could one then say any renaming or reorganization in the Dept. of Defense equals replacement, an abrogation of duty?
    Arguing that a name change or structural reorganization not specifically mentioned in the Constitution is an abrogation of duty is ludicrous.
    You trying to punk us?

  429. asoka. September 30, 2011 at 11:08 am #

    Asoka’s main problem is that on day one he’s inconsistent, on day two he contradicts himself, and on day three he’s a sophist. Then on day four he starts the cycle over again on day one.

    Any newcoming on CFN who cares to check the archives will see the folly of Q’s claim of inconsistency.
    Being an epistemological pluralist is not the same as being “inconsistent.” Being a religious pluralist is not the same as being “inconsistent.” Recognizing the validity of logics other than Western Aristotelian logic is not the same as being “inconsistent.”
    Inconsistent would be to argue one day for global population control and another day for increasing global population. I have consistently argued for global population control policies and strategies.
    Inconsistent would be to argue one day for invading and occupying countries and another day condemning the invasion and occupation of countries. I have consistently argued for war crimes trials for those responsible for invading and occupying countries (Bush and Obama).
    Inconsistent would be to argue one day that the laws of physics do not allow velocity faster than the speed of light and another day saying the laws of physics do permit velocity faster than the speed of light. I have always argued that velocity faster than the speed of light is possible.
    I could go on, but my consistency is on record in the archives.

    The neutrinos from CERN were showing up at Gran Sasso a few billionths of a second early–in other words, they appeared to be getting from Switzerland to Italy faster than light would travel the same distance. This isn’t an isolated anomaly, but has been going on for years. The team has now measured some 15,000 batches of neutrinos coming across that distance, and they say they’ve reached a point where the statistical significance is such that, were they trying to prove anything else, it would count as as formal scientific discovery. But try as they might, they can’t explain what’s happening.

    Laws of physics? Bah. Humbug.

  430. asoka. September 30, 2011 at 11:09 am #

    CORRECTION
    Any newcomer on CFN

  431. ozone September 30, 2011 at 11:15 am #

    And you thought the wideworld intertube webs were bad.
    An interesting treatise on conditioning, gullibility, and purposeful bullshittery be h’yar:
    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article29260.htm

  432. asoka. September 30, 2011 at 11:21 am #

    bossier22 said: “Q, my typos suck.”
    ——————–
    bossier22, your proper use of punctuation is admirable.
    Q fails in the punctuation department, even after I recommended he read the book Eats, shoots & leaves : the zero tolerance approach to punctuation.
    I actually thought the “zero tolerance approach” in the subtitle would appeal to Q, since he likes to represent himself as concerned about such things.
    Now I despair at his inconsistency. One day he posts “corrections” of other people’s writing. The next day he displays improper usage himself.
    I think Q is intentionally trying to provoke with his constant errors.

  433. bossier22 September 30, 2011 at 11:34 am #

    Although we argue on the issues, you can be funny. You do have a unique style of giving us other posters hell.

  434. asoka. September 30, 2011 at 11:44 am #

    Anyone looking for a project?
    Here are some suggestions:
    — end corporate personhood
    — institute a “Tobin Tax” on stock purchases and currency trading
    — nationalize banks
    — socialize medicine (Obama privatized it)
    — fully fund government jobs and genuine Keynesian stimulus
    — work on lifting restrictions on labor organizing
    — work on allowing cities to turn foreclosed homes into public housing
    — build a green energy infrastructure

  435. trippticket September 30, 2011 at 11:47 am #

    Tangled web indeed. I had something more to say along that line, but for some reason I couldn’t get back to CFN at all after my last post last night. Tried several times and kept getting a 403 Server error. Probably on my end. Anyway, thought that was an interesting little intersection in my world. Of course I was extremely flattered to be asked for a list of permaculture/organic gardening/sustainability books that the local library should add to their collection with that Dooley grant!

  436. ozone September 30, 2011 at 11:57 am #

    It’s Clusterfuckian! It’s all good! Many facets of multiple turd-gems!
    Yep, it’s a large ball of mud and muddle.
    As Mr. Kunstler has so entertainingly intimated, the wrestling match is CURRENTLY between a massive cover-up of our energy dilemma, and a massive cover-up of [institutional] financial collapse.
    Either one being exposed will put a stop to the insane intervention-ism, or vastly accelerate its’ advance. This is the yes-or-no digital question of the present predicament. Hewing to the “wrong” choice could prove to be fatal. To prepare for too much oppression, or to prepare for too much freedom? Each has its’ grave consequences and opportunities.

  437. trippticket September 30, 2011 at 11:57 am #

    Soak, really? You lost me after end corporate personhood. Which I am very much in favor of, obviously. It surprises me that you still push for greater consolidation in the face of declining access to energy. Longer food chains, more links in the bureaucracy, require MORE energy, not less. That phase of our existence is over, I’m afraid.
    The projects getting most of the attention these days are:
    ~Local food systems/farmers markets/community gardens
    ~Zero energy housing/office space
    ~Topsoil and freshwater conservation strategies
    Etc, etc, but not consolidation measures.

  438. trippticket September 30, 2011 at 12:01 pm #

    Peak Oil Is About Economics Not Geology
    Interesting article from Nathan in my inbox yesterday from Business Insider:

  439. asoka. September 30, 2011 at 1:06 pm #

    Ozone, if the roof of your house suffers “collapse, could anyone in the world engage in a “cover-up” that makes you unaware the roof just fell in on you?
    You say: “a massive cover-up of our energy dilemma, and a massive cover-up of [institutional] financial collapse…”
    If these things were happening, no one, not even TPTB, could “cover-up” those events.
    On the other hand, if these events are happening in your doomster mind, then you may also invent a “cover-up” in your paranoid mind.
    Dude, either there is energy or there isn’t. What happens when you flip the light switch in your house at night. If the house remains dark, then there is no energy.
    But the idea of a “cover-up” is in your mind. Get a clue, Ozone.

  440. messianicdruid September 30, 2011 at 1:12 pm #

    “Arguing that a name change or structural reorganization not specifically mentioned in the Constitution is an abrogation of duty is ludicrous.”
    Delegating the responsibility of maintaining a Post Office to unelected parties intent on making a profit is a serious derelection of duty much like allowing a private entity the right to create our money. Providing a method for the people to inform one another funded by their own taxes is a Congressional duty.
    It required an act of Congress to increase postal rates. The Consitutional rate is still six cents an ounce. This was not a problem as long as the money was stable, but when you have to do it yearly {or monthly}, people start to notice something is happening to the money. This is the reason for the changes.

  441. lbendet September 30, 2011 at 1:17 pm #

    Ideas for Sale
    Dylan Ratigan has a segment on his show that illustrates once again that this country has been subjected to policies bought and sold since the 1970’s. Think tanks started sprouting up that worked in parallel to the universities and are now our policy makers. In the 1970’s the Supreem Court also ruled that money was speech. Big mistake, my friends, but I’m sure they were pressured to do so. We are living in the nightmare this line of thinking has lead to.
    Yesterday Ratigan had Yash Levine and Mark Ames of ExhiledOnline talking about a letter Levine discovered at the Hoover Institute in Stanford, Ca.
    It was from Charles Koch inviting Friedrich Hayek to move back to the US to write about the evils of public safety nets ie universal healthcare, medicare and social security. The meme was that anything government will lead to facism and Stalinism. Don’t forget that the Koch brothers father made is fortune working for Stalin.
    In the letter, Koch assures Hayek that he can leave Austria which had Universal healthcare for the US because he was eligible for Medicare and SS as he earned enough during his teaching tenure at the University of Chicago in the 1950’s.
    It’s the crazy hypocrisy of it all that is so galling and the fact that this is a life and death issue for 300 million Americans who are being duped by this economic fundamentalist philosophy.
    Hayek knew his ideology didn’t work, but he made oodles of money pushing it. Similar to Ayn Rand who fell back on medicare in her last days.
    Milton Friedman who followed in Hayek’s footsteps at the University of Chicago also didn’t want anyone to know that Keyneianism worked.
    The Koch are buying professors at the University of Florida the last I read and their tenets are being instituted everywhere they can influence new people coming up through the ranks.
    Who is in the business of brainwashing? The government or the Koch brothers?
    note you can view the letter on Exhiled online for yourselves.

  442. lbendet September 30, 2011 at 1:28 pm #

    Sorry about the supreem__Supreme
    maybe its the Supremes! Think they’ll come up with a song for this (1970’s)

  443. anti soak September 30, 2011 at 1:47 pm #

    FROM FIRE ANDREA MITCHELL
    Leave it to the corrupt, thuggish Obama regime to make the Richard Nixon administration look like a saint.
    After the whole Solyndra scandal broke, that most of the lame stream media is still ignoring, theres still shenanigans going on with solar companies.
    Meet SolarReserve, another solar company based in California. The Obama regime gave this company $737 million in tax payer money.
    That alone should raise an eyebrow after the whole Solyndra fiasco. But wait, there’s more! According to the Weekly Standard, SolarReserve second biggest investment partner happens to be none other than Ronald Pelosi.
    He is the brother-in-law of corrupt San Francisco House Representative Nancy Pelosi. I’m sure it’s purely a coincidence though. (Yea right.)

  444. asoka. September 30, 2011 at 1:55 pm #

    It required an act of Congress to increase postal rates. The Consitutional rate is still six cents an ounce.

    Are you saying Congress does not have Constitutional authority to increase postal rates? Have you read Article One, Section Eight?
    It must be very satisfying to live in a world that is so tidy and consistent and focused on minutiae.
    But thinking the “Constitutional rate is still six cents an ounce” indicates you are frozen in a past that is unrelated to current reality.

    Delegating the responsibility of maintaining a Post Office to unelected parties intent on making a profit is a serious derelection of duty…

    Do you apply the same standard to the Dept. of Defense when it delegates out subcontracting to “unelected parties” like Boeing, GE, Lockheed, etc. and when it contracts out “security” personnel to Xe?

  445. Qshtik September 30, 2011 at 2:06 pm #

    That was an Asian chick, not chic.
    ===============
    I stand corrected. I always assumed chic was an acceptable abbreviation of chick (such as for texting etc) but I checked both a reputable dictionary and that Urban Dictionary Asoka likes to use to brush up on his ebonics and you are right, it is not sheek to write chic for chick.
    😉

  446. Confusionism September 30, 2011 at 2:26 pm #

    Thanks Q and not to drag this on too long, but why would anyone need to abbreviate a five-letter word with a four-letter word? Kind of defeats the purpose of abbreviating.

  447. Qshtik September 30, 2011 at 2:36 pm #

    Being an epistemological pluralist … a religious pluralist is not the same as being “inconsistent.”
    ===============
    I guess a mathematics pluralist says 2 + 2 = 4 on Monday but on Tuesday 2 + 2 = 5. On Wednesday, who knows?
    Put all the fancy labels on it you want but when an atheist says he prayed for the recovery of prog’s wife, that’s inconsistent to me. Maybe incongruous is a better word.
    Calling for Obama to be tried for war crimes in one breath while gleefully anticipating his reelection in the next breath is contradictory to me. Your pacifism is inconsistently adhered to.
    These are just two examples out of hundreds … but I haven’t got all day to spend on the obvious.

  448. Qshtik September 30, 2011 at 2:41 pm #

    why would anyone need to abbreviate a five-letter word with a four-letter word?
    =============
    It’s a lame attempt at writing in barroom vernacular while also saving 20% on key strokes, not to mention all those electrons.

  449. wagelaborer September 30, 2011 at 2:41 pm #

    When I was a child we went to McDonalds every Monday for dinner.
    We parked on the same side everytime, because my mother didn’t want the employees to know we were too poor to buy drinks. She brought coffee for herself and my dad, and we got that damned powdered milk in Tupperware cups.
    The employees were all elderly men, like WalMart greeters now. I didn’t see the point of hiding our poverty from them. Every Tuesday my dad and I went downtown LA to the library, and men who looked just like these men asked him for a dime for coffee.
    There were no women or teenagers working at McDonalds.
    I stood in the hamburger line and my sister stood in the french fry line. They were separate.
    The hamburgers were 19 cents and the french fries were 10 cents. Of course, there was no such thing as Big Macs or Quarter Pounders. The sign saying how many hamburgers were sold was regularly updated.
    That McDonalds, on Florence and Lakewood, was later made a National Landmark, because it was the second one in the country.

  450. xhalor September 30, 2011 at 2:42 pm #

    How dare you compare the Holy Great Pumpkin to that non-writin’ charlatan Jesus of Nazareth.

  451. wagelaborer September 30, 2011 at 2:45 pm #

    Welcome back, Tripp.
    It is difficult to live without the internet.
    At least until they start the public executions.

  452. wagelaborer September 30, 2011 at 2:49 pm #

    Why would someone who is consistently on the side of peace and international law laud Obama for his efficiency in assassination and mass murder?
    The assault on Libya continues.
    The Nuremberg Trials called illegal invasion the war crime that encompasses all other war crimes, but attacking civilians, destroying water, sewer and power companies, laying siege to cities, and bombing hospitals are all war crimes to be added to Obama’s list.
    http://williambowles.info/2011/09/29/mass-killing-and-humanitarian-disaster-in-nato-siege-of-sirte-by-bill-van-auken/

  453. Qshtik September 30, 2011 at 3:06 pm #

    Anyone looking for a project?
    — nationalize banks
    — socialize medicine
    — etc.
    ==========
    A commie manifesto for the 21st century.

  454. Qshtik September 30, 2011 at 3:18 pm #

    The Koch are buying professors at …
    ===========
    This has the same ring to it as saying “The Borg.”

  455. xhalor September 30, 2011 at 3:26 pm #

    Carp? It’s reputation is well deserved. It’s easier to just skip the fishing and eat river silt.

  456. Qshtik September 30, 2011 at 3:29 pm #

    there was no such thing as Big Macs
    =============
    Have you ever wondered why they don’t call them Big Micks?

  457. xhalor September 30, 2011 at 3:34 pm #

    You don’t have a cell phone? I’m so jealous.

  458. xhalor September 30, 2011 at 4:01 pm #

    “All the Americans who water-boarded prisoners in the last few years are free.”
    Just following orders. Talk about getting someone to do your “wet work”…

  459. xhalor September 30, 2011 at 4:07 pm #

    He should have been hung anyway. If for no other reason than providing a couple of generations of American males a visual ideal of useless macho horseshit.

  460. xhalor September 30, 2011 at 4:26 pm #

    That comment stimulated a trivial neuron. Here’s one. Why attach a text label to an icon?

  461. lbendet September 30, 2011 at 4:34 pm #

    Oh Q,
    Try and dismiss me as much as you like, but I read an article about this a few months ago through Thom Hartmann.
    They have a great deal of interest in making sure academic institutions teach the Chicago School of Business model of economics.
    Talking about nutty ideas, they claim that anything federal leads to brainwashing, Stalinism and facism. That’s not coming from me. And BTW throught my voting life I was pretty centerist before I realized what was happening. I even used to vote Republican.
    Then I woke up and I’m not going to sleep again.

  462. lbendet September 30, 2011 at 4:36 pm #

    Through out sorry

  463. messianicdruid September 30, 2011 at 4:38 pm #

    “Are you saying Congress does not have Constitutional authority to increase postal rates?”
    Of course not. I’m saying only Congress CAN raise the rates for the Post Office, via an Act of Congress! That’s why they turned it over to a private entity known as the USPS. Again, it is abrogation of duty.
    “Do you apply the same standard to the Dept. of Defense when it delegates out subcontracting to “unelected parties” like Boeing, GE, Lockheed, etc. and when it contracts out “security” personnel to Xe?”
    Of course. They have no authority for “standing armies” beyond two years appropriations, much less mercenaries.
    “He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.” ~ Declaration of Independence
    To do so echos the same oppression we resisted from across the pond.
    http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance110.html

  464. xhalor September 30, 2011 at 4:41 pm #

    “Yep, it’s a large ball of mud and muddle.”
    Backed up by WAY too much information, pro and con, on any particular subject. As for “hewing to the ‘wrong’ choice…”; America is in a situation that is like an artillery attack. Things are exploding all around you. You have to jump, but there’s no way to know where or if you even have enough time. I suspect that some unforeseen shortage will kick start the real Doom. Tin, bauxite, water, Rice Krispies…somethin’.

  465. Confusionism September 30, 2011 at 4:43 pm #

    I have to step in here Q.
    “He should have been hung anyway.” – xhalor
    It’s “hanged”. People are hanged, clothes are “hung”.

  466. xhalor September 30, 2011 at 5:03 pm #

    Geez, it’s like he’s developing a.. a… staff.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBTRp80Q64U&feature=related

  467. Qshtik September 30, 2011 at 5:08 pm #

    People are hanged, clothes are “hung”.
    =============
    Some people are hung. Unfortunately, I’m not one of them.

  468. xhalor September 30, 2011 at 5:12 pm #

    Rats! I never have a snare drum when I need one.

  469. asoka. September 30, 2011 at 5:14 pm #

    Q said:

    when an atheist says he prayed for the recovery of prog’s wife, that’s inconsistent to me. Maybe incongruous is a better word.

    Qshtik, you are limiting the rights of atheists! Atheists have every right to pray because prayer does not necessarily involve any kind of deity.
    Just look at the dictionary definition:
    pray
    Something people do to pretend that their apathy is really concern. Also known as “I could care less what happens to you unless it affects me directly, but I don’t want anyone to think I’m the craven, spineless self-absorbed weasel I really am.” Mostly promised in lieu of actual help.
    SOURCE: urbandictionary.com

  470. asoka. September 30, 2011 at 5:16 pm #

    Thanks, MD. At least we agree on something.

  471. Widespreadpanic7 September 30, 2011 at 5:22 pm #

    Yup, out of the100 or so kids who have been arrested at the Wall Street protests in lower Manhattan, about a dozen have been charged with assaulting a police officer, a felony. In NY, prosecutors & judges tend to frown upon that. They may be naive, they may be idealistic, but now they’re at Rikers, possibly sharing a cell with Shabazz X, East Coast Crips member. Right now they are probably thinking, NYC is not the kind of place to go looking for trouble, I should have stayed home.
    WSP7

  472. xhalor September 30, 2011 at 5:22 pm #

    I wanted to add that I now have so much “freedom” that I could puke. I am now afraid of freedom. How in the fuck did that happen?

  473. Qshtik September 30, 2011 at 5:23 pm #

    And BTW throught my voting life
    ================
    I am totally letting you slide on this one because you have inadvertently invented a very plausible and cool new word. The sense of what you’re saying is unharmed, plus you eliminate 3 key strokes, a space and ou.

  474. xhalor September 30, 2011 at 5:25 pm #

    I second the new word.

  475. Qshtik September 30, 2011 at 5:32 pm #

    pray
    Something people do to pretend that their apathy is really concern. Also known as “I could care less what happens to you unless it affects me directly, but I don’t want anyone to think I’m the craven, spineless self-absorbed weasel I really am.” Mostly promised in lieu of actual help.
    SOURCE: urbandictionary.com
    ===================
    Perfect! You’ve hit the nail on the head.
    And now Prog has it directly from your own mouth (keyboard) that all that praying crap was just disingenuous BS … as were your repeated apologies for calling him a racist. I’m glad we’ve cleared up that loose end once and for all.

  476. xhalor September 30, 2011 at 5:34 pm #

    “Mostly promised in lieu of actual help.”
    I think we’re mostly in line. To me, prayer is the actual manifestation of unrealistic expectations. Putting your knees down on the dirty asphalt outside of a gas station and praying that God will make the prices go down. Wouldn’t that make God guilty of insider trading?

  477. asoka. September 30, 2011 at 5:37 pm #

    Thanks, Q.
    It is rare for someone to recognize and publicly appreciate my honesty, and I thank you.
    Also nice that you are publicly and “directly from your own mouth (keyboard)” giving such credibility to the ebonics dictionary. You all right, bro!

  478. ak September 30, 2011 at 5:48 pm #

    I’ve been 403-Forbidden (IP ban) for the second time the other day, just for trying to post this link to Merriam-Webster (see below)
    I’ve discussed it with the webmaster (who BTW is the moderator of K-Cast), and apparently Movable Type (the software of this blog) attempts to censor some ‘spammy’ words, as in v|@gr@, fr33, etc. and some links.
    My fault was to try to immediately repost what was held up, and that resulted in no access to the whole website.
    So the some of the ideas if held up are:
    – wait a while
    – check for questionable words
    – possibly type link without the leading H t t p : / /
    If 403-banned, you can try to get a new IP from your ISP – that’s what I ended up doing.
    Here is the offending link (of interest to lingusts, copy&paste), let’s see if it goes through:
    http://www.merriam-webster.com/top-ten-lists/top-10-commonly-confused-words-vol-1/flaunt-flout.html

  479. ak September 30, 2011 at 5:57 pm #

    lingusts=linguists

  480. messianicdruid September 30, 2011 at 6:43 pm #

    “At least we agree on something.”
    Usually it is after getting rid of all the miscommunication/presuppositions.

  481. bossier22 September 30, 2011 at 6:47 pm #

    ” he’ developing a staff” Now that was funny.
    Your solution for machoism would not work. It is hard wired in to folks like fighter pilots, bull riders, surgeons, and generals.

  482. xhalor September 30, 2011 at 6:52 pm #

    What about Surgeon Generals and Fighter Bull Pilots?

  483. lbendet September 30, 2011 at 6:53 pm #

    Q.
    I corrected that in my next post. But thanks for letting me slide
    As you have said in the past, I just wouldn’t be able to sleep if you hadn’t.

  484. bossier22 September 30, 2011 at 6:54 pm #

    Ha. Probably them too. Among others. Not tough enough myself.

  485. xhalor September 30, 2011 at 7:15 pm #

    Bah! Don’t sell yourself short. In times of extreme duress, there’s no telling who will stand up. My grandparents used to tell me a story about an old Parisian lady with a long hat pin who killed a lot of Nazi officers while they gloated in sidewalk cafes. Awaiting the Vlad response….

  486. bossier22 September 30, 2011 at 7:23 pm #

    I guess your right. And you never know who might be a friend to help out. Those are the stories that don’t get enough attention.

  487. bossier22 September 30, 2011 at 7:28 pm #

    Did your grandparents live in Paris during the war?

  488. xhalor September 30, 2011 at 7:35 pm #

    They lived in St. Louis. I just had a comment held up for administrative review. I’ve posted a lot of questionable shit here, and that’s never happened before. I’ll summarize. It was a comment that used a registered drug name in reference to dealing with Qshtick. How curious.

  489. bossier22 September 30, 2011 at 7:48 pm #

    It seems a lot of posters have been held up randomly. Maybe the TSA is patting us down.
    My parents , your grandparents generation are a fascinating group. They have got a lot of stories that we are losing.

  490. Qshtik September 30, 2011 at 7:49 pm #

    of interest to lingusts,
    lingusts=linguists
    =============
    There is no one who can steal my heart like a woman who is big-boobed and a cunning linguist.

  491. xhalor September 30, 2011 at 7:56 pm #

    A snare drum AND a cymbal.

  492. ozone September 30, 2011 at 7:57 pm #

    Aha! Yes, “The Koch”, “The Borg”.
    Perfect. (Keep in mind that resistance is futile.)
    Too bad LBendet can’t patent that…
    …However, artworks under that theme (“The Koch”); another story altogether!
    Let ’em (the bro’s) sue; that’s where the exposure comes in. It’s positively glowing with possibilities! :o)

  493. xhalor September 30, 2011 at 8:01 pm #

    The only thing that I find fascinating about the “Greatest Generation” and the one that came before it, is how easily they were seduced off of their land to become a bio-unit in a factory.

  494. Qshtik September 30, 2011 at 8:06 pm #

    It was a comment that used a registered drug name in reference to dealing with Qshtick.
    =============
    Was it Cyanide?: a mitochondrial toxin that is among the most rapidly lethal poisons known to man. Used in both ancient and modern times as a method of execution, cyanide causes death within minutes to hours of exposure.
    P.S. You’ve misspelled my name. It’s Qshtik. I dropped the c for the 14.3% savings in key strokes.

  495. ozone September 30, 2011 at 8:12 pm #

    “America is in a situation that is like an artillery attack. Things are exploding all around you. You have to jump, but there’s no way to know where or if you even have enough time. I suspect that some unforeseen shortage will kick start the real Doom. Tin, bauxite, water, Rice Krispies…somethin’.” -NowSleetor
    Most astute, X. I have the same suspicion.
    What may also doom a great number of “folks” in the FUSA (former usa) will be a [well-established] shortage of imagination.
    People who count on “d’gum’mint” to save them would be in this sprawling refugee camp.

  496. ozone September 30, 2011 at 8:21 pm #

    I had meant to add that it would be one of the finest judo-of-the-mind moves ever endeavored; using their “weight” and “power” to flop them right onto their fat-back. POOM! “DOWWN goes The Koch!”

  497. xhalor September 30, 2011 at 8:21 pm #

    Cyanide. Nah. Too fast.
    Stop it.

  498. xhalor September 30, 2011 at 8:54 pm #

    “People who count on “d’gum’mint” to save them would be in this sprawling refugee camp.”
    Dammit Ozone, you’ve strayed from the path. Ya need to stop worrying so much ’bout “d’gum’mint” (that was hard to touch type) and go back to worrying ’bout da Debbil (er, as he relates to wanton consumerism).
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kaiLcwHXB4
    Oh, when you say “sprawling refugee camp”, do you mean Long Beach, California?

  499. trippticket September 30, 2011 at 8:54 pm #

    Man, when this site holds my comments for approval these days it really holds them! That’s the second 403 IP ban I’ve gotten in 24 hours. Sheesh. Had I known it was going to be this hard to rejoin the discussion I think I would have just skipped it!
    I’m not going to try to repost the Business Insider link that got me banned earlier today, but if you go to their website and search “peak oil is about economics not geology” you’ll find it I’m sure. Interesting perspective.

  500. xhalor September 30, 2011 at 8:56 pm #

    Shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit.
    I know I’m goin’

  501. trippticket September 30, 2011 at 9:01 pm #

    “What may also doom a great number of “folks” in the FUSA (former usa) will be a [well-established] shortage of imagination.”
    Bravo, Ozone, bravo! No road maps, no ideas, no invention. Just a whole truck load of the psychology of previous investment.

  502. trippticket September 30, 2011 at 9:07 pm #

    Posted my first photo update in months tonight at Small Batch Garden. Gratuitous pics of fuzzy bunnies, darling children, and various and sundry horticultural porn to get you moving. Shameless, I know.
    http://smallbatchgarden.blogspot.com/
    Enjoy!

  503. xhalor September 30, 2011 at 9:20 pm #

    Hey man, that’s a mighty heavy truckload. I believe that according to the International Asso. of Weights & Measures that it is the equivalent of 10 Texas Shitloads. It’s taken ALL of the second half of my life to divest of all the lies (or severe neurotic displacement, whatever…) from the first half. I also don’t have any road maps, my ideas have become fetid, and armed thugs from my neighborhood have stolen my inventions. Guess I’m gonna have to use my imagination.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kPFrQPdKPM

  504. Qshtik September 30, 2011 at 9:51 pm #

    Did you see this Asoka?
    Obama 44%, Christie 43%
    New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie trails President Barack Obama by one percentage point in a general election survey.

    This Jersey repub can’t miss; he’s svelte, he doesn’t pull any punches, and to appeal to the religious nuts he’s even got Christ in his name.

  505. myrtlemay September 30, 2011 at 10:06 pm #

    Mainly for Procon, but anyone who is interested in Elaine Supkis’ website should take a read about what she says about immigration: ”
    This is an impossible situation. The integration of various states has been nearly impossible to engineer. In the US, we had the same internal problems: generous states were punished by mainly the former slave states by being forced to take in welfare families while the former slave states provided minimal services. Then, Mexico began exporting its poor who now gain full welfare and state benefits just like aliens in Europe enter host countries, hands out for state support, too. This is a real problem and will eventually cause the collapse of all welfare benefit systems as well as public schools, hospital services and nearly everything societies need to function fully.”
    Good read. I recommend it. Cheers!

  506. myrtlemay September 30, 2011 at 10:09 pm #

    Jeez, is it me or is JHK really picking up the advertisements on this site…I mean, a BANK? Or maybe I’m imagining all that.

  507. myrtlemay September 30, 2011 at 10:18 pm #

    Okay, I just got an “Article Held for Review” notice! I think I’m about to be banned. Stay loose, fellow CFN’ers.

  508. myrtlemay September 30, 2011 at 10:25 pm #

    ..people are hanged, pictures are hung. Yep, it’s what I was told, too. Yet I read in the papers and hear reporters say it all the time. Could it be one of those rules that needs to be “hung” up to dry. 🙂 sorry, couldn’t resist.
    BTW, Johnny Holmes was hung, not hanged. Better check your Websters for that one, mister.

  509. myrtlemay September 30, 2011 at 10:27 pm #

    I think the tuning dial for this website’s tolerance for b.s. must be on high alert, otherwise I don’t think my aforementioned comment should have been banned.

  510. xhalor September 30, 2011 at 11:07 pm #

    This is your culture. This noise had to come from somewhere, now, didn’t it?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhBFRNBxT_o

  511. xhalor September 30, 2011 at 11:14 pm #

    Yes, that is Mama Cass.

  512. rippedthunder September 30, 2011 at 11:17 pm #

    Oh Wage, what memories! Who can forget the slogan “Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, and onions on a sesame seed bun.” If a McDonalds should be a landmark it would have been the one in San Ysidro. James Huberty seems to be a model for some folks in the CFN;
    Huberty, a survivalist, saw signs of growing trouble in America, believing that government meddling and regulation was the cause of business failures and unemployment, including his own. He believed that international bankers we