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We’re Weimar

     Future historians who try to chart the unraveling of the USA’s political tapestry might point to two events of the past week.  The obvious first one was the Tea Party convention at Nashville. It was held not accidentally at the ridiculous Opryland Hotel and resort in the city’s outer suburban asteroid belt, right next to the circumferential freeway, and next door to the defunct (1997) Opryland USA theme park, an attraction based on the cute idea that Tennessee rubes were too dumb to spell the word opera — so the symbolism was perfect.
     Behind the incoherent cargo of conflicting complaints that makes up Tea Party doctrine — like “keeping the government’s hands off our medicare!” — stands the more basic dissolution of the Sunbelt’s miracle economy, along with the pain and bewilderment of the southern peckerwood political nexus that rose out of the dust after World War Two to build the suburban nirvana of universal air-conditioning, happy motoring, Jesus tub-thumping, over-eating, and Friday night football that defined Sunbelt culture. They sense now that history is about to thrust them back into the okra patch, with the hookworms and the chiggers, as the economy whirls down the drain, and the car dealerships close up, and the idle production homebuilders succumb to methedrine addiction, and the price of Reba McEntire tickets exceeds their dwindling resources, and they are none too happy about any of that.
     Of course this Sunbelt political culture has tentacles and outposts all over the USA, wherever a few generations of laboring folk enjoyed debt-fueled parabolic rises in living standards during the cheap oil decades, and now find themselves in foreclosure hell, indentured to the very WalMarts that they welcomed with open arms (and allowed to destroy their local businesses) — and, of course, it’s yet another paradox that these are the same folk who will still defend the big box masters to their deaths. The America they stand for is a weird contradictory mish-mash of Confederate nostalgia, hyper-individualism that really owes allegiance to nothing, racial enmity, religious paranoia, and potemkin patriotism — especially involving anything in the constitution that allows them to wriggle out of obligations to the public interest at the same time that they get to push other groups of people around.
     The Tea Party people are the corn-pone Nazis I have been warning you about. They are gathering strength in numbers as President Obama and congress fritter away their remaining legitimacy in a manner of governance that more and more resembles an endless Chinese Fire Drill. The delusional craziness of the Tea Partyists exists in direct proportion to the wimpy deceit of the government, especially in matters of money and statistics reporting. Our political leaders are resorting to wholesale deceit because the truth of our situation — comprehensive bankruptcy — is too painful to dwell on and for the most part they are too chicken too state it.
     This brings me to the second telling event of last week when President Obama said, kind of off-hand, apropos of the US economic situation, “You don’t blow a bunch of cash on Vegas when you’re trying to save for college. You prioritize. You make tough choices.”  Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (of Nevada) was all over Mr. Obama like a cheap suit for that. I’m sorry that the President didn’t slam back the craven Mr. Reid and pull his upper lip over the top of his head. Fuck Las Vegas and fuck Nevada, and fuck all the casino operators in every pulsating gambling venue around this country. The last thing we need is to continue believing that it is possible to get something for nothing, or an industry based on that false principle. I’d go a lot further and shut down legalized gambling all over the USA, send it back to the margins, to the alleys, to the berm between the WalMart and the Target Store, to the basement boiler rooms, to the public bathrooms, to wherever it will be identified as indecent, shameful, and not healthy.
      Notice, by the way, that the Tea Party people have never made an issue about the disgusting gambling “industry” — not even the Jesus thumpers among them, for all their pretense about decency and propriety. I suppose this is precisely because a cardinal article of Tea Party faith is that it should be possible to get something for nothing. You should be entitled to collect social security even while you inveigh against the intrusion of big government into your life and the horrible prospect that it will get its mitts on your Medicare! And when Jeezus comes to take you home, that place will be just like Opryland USA was in its heyday, with Dolly Parton in every suite and all the pulled pork sandwiches under heaven’s dome….
     As the contest heats up this year between Tea Partydom and the Weimar-like remnant of the party in power expect to see a political vortex form that will suck the little remaining coherence out of American life. Personally, I’d like to see Mr. Obama have a little fun with his adversaries, even if it seals his fate as a one-term president.  I’d like to see him start by using the just-proposed national forum on health care reform as a rope-a-dope moment to expose opponents to reform as the bought-and-sold errand boys they are.
    In the meantime, it appears that nothing will stop the epochal forces underway in global finance from spinning out of control. Illusions are getting hammered hard now and nations are lining up for the long trip home out of modernity to something that will look more like the seventeenth century, if they’re lucky.

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About James Howard Kunstler

View all posts by James Howard Kunstler
James Howard Kunstler is the author of many books including (non-fiction) The Geography of Nowhere, The City in Mind: Notes on the Urban Condition, Home from Nowhere, The Long Emergency, and Too Much Magic: Wishful Thinking, Technology and the Fate of the Nation. His novels include World Made By Hand, The Witch of Hebron, Maggie Darling — A Modern Romance, The Halloween Ball, an Embarrassment of Riches, and many others. He has published three novellas with Water Street Press: Manhattan Gothic, A Christmas Orphan, and The Flight of Mehetabel.

426 Responses to “We’re Weimar” Subscribe

  1. dave February 8, 2010 at 9:45 am #

    There might be a day we wished we were as well off as Weimar….

  2. Chris Lawrence February 8, 2010 at 9:49 am #

    A lot of the Tea Party stuff started when Ron Paul was running for President. While I don’t agree with their position with regards to health care (I’m Canadian) the idea of more fiscal reponsibility is definitely a good thing.
    At the time, many people in the Tea Party movement were actually anti-war (following Ron Paul’s lead.) After all, Bush was spending trillions on Iraq and Afghanistan, and he’s the one who started the big bank bailouts. If you want a federal government that’s small and fiscally responsible, you need to stop the war and the bailouts. Unfortunately, the movement has sort of become a freakshow now, and no one is talking about the wars anymore.

  3. Freedom Guerrilla February 8, 2010 at 10:00 am #

    Oh man, James. “Fuck Las Vegas and fuck Nevada.” Golden.
    I spent an unfortunate weekend there years ago and marveled at the spectacle of insanity, like a modern day freak show.
    So, what are you going to write about when this thing totally winds down?
    –Tommy

  4. popcine February 8, 2010 at 10:13 am #

    Paul B. Farrell’s column of 2 2 2010, a forceful and cogent description of current economic predicaments, is one of the best business columns I have ever read. Thanks to 321gold. com for referring me to it. Say hello to “Great
    Depression II”.
    http://www.marketwatch.com/story/our-debt-time-bomb-is-ready-to-go-ka-boom-2010-02-02?pagenumber=1
    But even this amazing essay did not get the whole story. For that, look also at Eric deCarbonnel’s column of 12 17 2009. I do not know much about the agricultural sector and I don’t understand why the US Dept. of Agriculture would want to understate our food supply, but one of the items that lends credibility to this guy is the map of how many US counties were declared “disaster areas” last season.
    http://www.marketskeptics.com/2009/12/2010-food-crisis-for-dummies.html
    –by popcine, pronounced “pop-sinny’

  5. Lynn Shwadchuck February 8, 2010 at 10:15 am #

    I think there are lots of individual people out there who are really worried, but the knuckleheads are louder and they band together. I struck up a conversation with a stranger last week who seemed ready to hug me for being willing to talk about the dire state of things. It’s important right now to stop keeping it under our hats. If we flush out the worriers, more of us can work together to adapt. There’s a lot of mental preparation to be done for the coming contractions. Learning to live a bit more like those in the world who are already at the short end of the stick is a good start.
    Lynn
    http://www.10in10diet.com/
    Diet for a small footprint and a small grocery bill

  6. nothing February 8, 2010 at 10:16 am #

    Jim, as you predicted, we are indeed entering the Long Emergency, and in the long term it may turn out ok, but in the meantime a lot of us ordinary souls could get crushed. There are a couple little tips on weathering the storm at The Nothing Store

  7. ithacaisdoomed February 8, 2010 at 10:27 am #

    Your descriptions of the south crack me up! I am so glad I moved to Upstate NY. We’re still safe here, right? Thus far, we’ve fended off the Teabaggers. I expect this whole movement is going to implode–the Nazis were not trying to make a profit off each other.

  8. ithacaisdoomed February 8, 2010 at 10:28 am #

    Your descriptions of the south crack me up! I am so glad I moved to Upstate NY. We’re still safe here, right? Thus far, we’ve fended off the Teabaggers. I expect this whole movement is going to implode–the Nazis were not trying to make a profit off each other.

  9. upstatebob February 8, 2010 at 10:35 am #

    This one should have the terbacky spittin’, budweiser drinkin’
    crowd seething. -the one who can read anyway. DC looks like an ant swarm but with less function. A perfect time to invoke the
    reshuffling of the Titanic deck chairs.

  10. DeeJones February 8, 2010 at 10:35 am #

    The whole “sumptin’ fer nutin'” e-con-omy really got its start under Ronnie Raygun.
    First it was tax cuts for the rich and deficits funded by borrowing. Then as more & more jobs here were “off-shored”, never to return, the “Con-sumers” were given easy credit to keep them pacified.
    As the deficits grew higher, congress cravenly just raised the credit ceiling.
    The closest we came to fiscal responsibility was under Bill Clinton who left a somewhat balanced budget and a projected surplus, which COULD have been used to pay off the prior debt.
    But as we all know, Lil’ Georgie just had to give it all to the rich plus some with more tax cuts that primarily benefited the wealthy.
    The Sheeple were kept pacified again by turning thier own homes into ATMs via the magic of the HELOC.
    Well, we all know how that has turned out.
    I wonder, since it appears that President Obama, for whom many had such high hopes (all up in smoke now), will indeed be a one-termer.
    The leaves the unappealing scenario of Prez Palin in ’12.
    At some point in the future, SOMEBODY will have to face the truth that the US is literally Bankrupt, and they will have to make the hard choices: Tell the People the ugly Truth, then take some action.
    Ah, but the truth, will a Prez like Palin be able to tell the truth, and much more, act on it.
    It WILL come down to a choice in this country between the “Defense” dept and Social Security, Medcare, etc.
    Who will win? Will the Prez be able to cut “Defense” spending, or will they have to tell all the retirees and disabled that they will have to sacrifice so that the Pentagon can continue to occupy 1000 foreign bases, and kill uncounted millions of people, all just to protect the Corporate-Mil-Indst Complex.
    Who do YOU think will win out?
    Think: Was there ever a Peace Dividend from Prez Bill? No? Thought so….
    So all you retirees, get used to living in a cardboard box stolen from the WalMart dumpster, along with whatever food you can scavenge from there too, ’cause THAT is really where the US is headed.

  11. Puzzler February 8, 2010 at 10:48 am #

    The problem with the “bought-and-sold errand boys they are” label is that it covers just about every sorry doofus in DC, from the top on down. Between venal corruption, incompetence, and empty speechifying they’ve got the place wrapped up.

  12. Onthego February 8, 2010 at 10:51 am #

    Check out today’s RUBES comic. Something For Nothing indeed!

  13. montysano February 8, 2010 at 10:56 am #

    “At the time, many people in the Tea Party movement were actually anti-war (following Ron Paul’s lead.)”
    I’m not so sure about that. I was at one of the early Tea Party rallies here in the Deep South, about a year ago and just after the inauguration. Did I see any anti-war signs, or anything decrying the fiscal profligacy of BushCo? No, I did not. Zero. Nada. Instead, just weeks after Obama’s inauguration, I was treated to photos of Obama as witch doctor, with bones in his nose.
    The Tea Party movement run by, and directed at, rubes who get all their information from Fox News. It is conservative spam email come to life. It is the new Know Nothing party, with their leader being a half-wit from Alaska who writes crib notes on her hand like some 5th grader.

  14. Pangolin February 8, 2010 at 11:07 am #

    The Tea Party people can go pound salt. They have big money backing them because the Republicans were such total and complete fuckups that they had to invent a grass roots opposition from whole cloth. It takes a LOT to get conservatives to notice reality and George Bush did it by crashing the economy and dumping the sons and daughters of conservative dipshits into two useless wars. There they were promptly blown up, charged to kill women and children and given seventeen kinds of PTSD.
    Stack those Tea Party people up against the Burning Man crowd in a pitched battle and Sarah Palin’s moronic, fleshy, followers would be so much charcoal in hours. I am simply not impressed with stupid and six-hundred isn’t exactly a horde. Think about it; liberals who hang out nude, on salt flats, in August vs. the cottage cheese bodies of the Tea Bag republic. Liberal artists have proven real handy with welding torches and would whip up a bicycle powered tank before the teabaggers had finished up seconds on their customary biscuits and fatback gravy breakfast.
    If they want to play beer hall putsch I say Bring IT ON.

  15. SNAFU February 8, 2010 at 11:16 am #

    Jim I agree wholeheartedly with your views concerning gambling “Fuck Las Vegas and fuck Nevada, and fuck all the casino operators in every pulsating gambling venue around this country. The last thing we need is to continue believing that it is possible to get something for nothing, or an industry based on that false principle.”
    To your “fuck…” I would also add a hearty fuck one and all the so called “professional sports” industry football, baseball, horse racing, auto racing, dog racing …… which to my mind exist as adjuncts to the aforementioned casinos.
    Living in NY’s 23rd district I know neighbors who trek off to the local Native American Casinos to relieve themselves of money they can ill afford to part with and simultaneously curse Governor Patterson because he wants to close underutilized prisons in the North Country. One egregious example is located near Moriah, NY where the local prison houses 135 inmates secured by 132 prison employees.
    SNAFU

  16. paskit February 8, 2010 at 11:20 am #

    Jim–
    When I read your contempt for your social inferiors, and hear it echoed by your fans, I can’t help comparing it to Joe Bageant’s rueful sympathy for his own benighted tribe of origin, which is also mine. (Go to joebageant.com). Guess which of you comes off as the more admirable and mature person. But then, Bageant has a real class analysis, and you don’t. He asks how these deluded right-wing populists got to be the way they are, and rightly blames the capitalist system itself. So does Chomsky, so did Howard Zinn and many others. Check out Theodor Adorno on the psychosocial roots of the original, non-cornpone Nazis. Be more serious, less glibly journalistic.

  17. messianicdruid February 8, 2010 at 11:28 am #

    “Tell the People the ugly Truth, then take some action.”
    Action such as ridiculing them for being so stupid will just be interpreted as more classism.
    JHK may gain some insight in Chuck Chalberg’s advice for Garrison Keillor:
    “But behind it all is anger — as in how could all those good citizens of liberal Massachusetts reject his party, his president and all those 50 million Americans without health insurance?”
    http://www.startribune.com/opinion/commentary/83673057.html?elr=KArksi8cyaiUncacyi8cyaiUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUU
    Working poor people are sick and tired {angry} of the non-working whom-evers telling them to “be happy and enjoy your work” while we run things, and then also being accused of hypocrisy for expecting the goobermint to keep its promises. Yes, yes, yes, they should never have believed liars – pot – kettle – black.

  18. The Mook February 8, 2010 at 11:29 am #

    Jim, When you say fuck vegas and gambling you should include the biggest gambling degenerates, those in the suits on Wall St. It is absolutely amazing to me that every time there is any mention (cheerleading) of an economic recovery these jackasses start speculating (gambling) on oil futures. The real reason behind this economic meltdown was the high price of gas. It was killing the middle classes’ ability to spend that money at Six Flags and the Outback. But just as with all this other bullshit they are feeding us, they once again got the attention and blame diverted to the sub-prime mess. Let the gas prices be set by supply and demand not by these crooks driving it up which will continue to keep people unemployed while they upgrade their yachts. Ban speculation on oil. If you want to buy it fine. Where would you like it delivered?

  19. Smokyjoe February 8, 2010 at 11:40 am #

    We Southerners get really angry when a “damned Yankee” like Jim blames our culture for poisoning the US.
    Even when the Damned Yankee is correct. H.L. Mencken’s “Sahara of the Bozart” is more valid than ever today, as even what passes for aristocracy in the South has become crass and stupid and money-addled.
    The South is, as it has always been, the problem.

  20. Smokyjoe February 8, 2010 at 11:44 am #

    And Jim: I actually make corn pone at home. It’s damned good eatin’ round here, boy.
    That’s another Southern “thing”: thinking Southerners love and hate our crazy region and its culture in the same instant. See Mark Twain, Tennesee Williams, William Faulkner, and Flannery O’Connor for more evidence.

  21. Pangolin February 8, 2010 at 11:54 am #

    It probably hasn’t occurred to many of us that the US doesn’t have honest work for a fat portion of the people that need a paycheck to pay rent and groceries. A minority gets paid hugely for doing fuck-all and the rest have to scrabble over the leavings. It does not help one bit that the wealthy minority have enough spare cash to purchase storefronts, homes, farmland and apartment buildings that they will never see and leave them idle if they don’t get whatever arbitrary rent they demand.
    Next time you walk past an empty storefront you just think about how efficient capitalism is by leaving assets idle. Somebody could maybe make a living out of there. Too bad some rich bastard would prefer your neighbors starve while he waits for his ideal rent. I may be a socialist but I don’t want to take from you. You don’t have shit. I want to take from the guy in Saudi Arabia that owns three-hundred rental houses in rural Oregon. He’s a goddamn parasite.

  22. Steve Knox February 8, 2010 at 12:03 pm #

    I believe it was Thomas Jefferson, a Southern of a different time, who said that democracy demands an informed and involved citizenry. Today, unfortunately, we have neither. Entitlement has replaced our sense of involvement. Our limited attention span makes it impossible to connect the dots.It is all ours by birthright, with no effort required. And like a bunch of juveniles, when we don’t get our own way, we say the system doesn’t work. A sense of the common good, and community have long since disappeared from our discussions. Now it’s all about what’s in it for me. The fact that at this point in time the Republicans have lost what little intellectual curiosity that they had does not help. We need soultions, and a loyal opposition that can put better ideas on the table.
    Jim instinctively sees all this, and I just wish that others did as well.

  23. not mommy February 8, 2010 at 12:07 pm #

    “I want to take from the guy in Saudi Arabia that owns three-hundred rental houses in rural Oregon. He’s a goddamn parasite.”
    So you want to “take”? Well that makes you a parasite as that is exactly what parasites do. But not only do you want to “take” YOU want to take from a parasite. Wow, man…that’s getting pretty damn low on the food chain. Whatever…

  24. mayberrymachiavellian February 8, 2010 at 12:11 pm #

    Jim:
    We are channeling each other, see e.g., my comment on Frank Rich’s 1/31/10 column, “The State of the Union Is Comatose”:
    Achtung baby! Welcome to Weimar Republic 2010, where the Democratic Party’s fecklessness emboldens the incoherent Right to appear “dynamic” by comparison.

  25. mayberrymachiavellian February 8, 2010 at 12:19 pm #

    TO: “SmokyJoe” (above) re: the South has always been the problem.
    As posted on Krugman’s 1/31/10 column, “Once again, any sort of obvious, crucially-needed, intelligent reform is blocked by the Know-Nothings who hold our country hostage to their reactionary stupidity. It’s enough to make you want to vomit. 59 Democratic senators and the country still cannot get anything significant accomplished. Howzabout we cut loose the Confederacy? They wanted out in 1860, and are still resisting any encroachment of values that don’t embrace the fundamental justice of slavery as a social institution. Let them wallow in their “Liberty” and shoot each other in their armed-but-polite Jesusland while the rest of us get on with instituting a rational health-care system, sensible financial reform, sane gun-control laws, the abolition of the barbarous death penalty, etc.

  26. wagelaborer February 8, 2010 at 12:21 pm #

    I walked into our breakroom Sat and there was Sarah Palin, giving her hateful speech live on CNN. I hear that it was also carried by MSNBC. ABC News gave an entire segment to it on Friday.
    This kind of publicity for a gathering of 600 people is ominous. Clearly, the East Coast media as well as the Atlanta media is pushing the fascist agenda. It’s not South vs North. It’s rich vs poor.
    I complained bitterly about it and one of my co-workers asked why I hated Sarah so. She loves Sarah and admires her “strict constitutionality”.
    I brought up the right wing Christian problem. That wasn’t a problem for her. I brought up the $20 million deficit she left her small town. My co-worker hadn’t heard of that. I brought up the shooting wolves from helicopters. She said that Sarah denied that that happened.
    I complained that the Green Party would never get the kind of free hours of publicity that the teabaggers got. She said she didn’t like the Greens because we believe in single payer, and she thinks that poor people shouldn’t get medical care. It shouldn’t be a right.
    I said it wasn’t a right, it was a service that civilized countries provided their citizens.
    I said I didn’t like paying taxes for the military, but she was fine with that.
    Then I said I didn’t like paying taxes for road building.
    This blew her mind. She’d never heard of that concept before. Why, of course government had to build roads. How would people get to work?
    I said that should be their problem, like medical care for the poor in her world.
    It was kind of funny to see a person who rails about entitlements for the poor constantly, be confronted with the concept that roads are an entitlement for those with enough money to buy a car.
    I don’t think she liked it!

  27. trippticket February 8, 2010 at 12:27 pm #

    “We Southerners get really angry when a “damned Yankee” like Jim blames our culture for poisoning the US.”
    A “Damned Yankee” is one who doesn’t go home. I believe Jim is just a plain old Yankee…

  28. Vlad Krandz February 8, 2010 at 12:28 pm #

    The Tea Party started out with promise but it has turned into just another Dud, just like the Obama Presidency. They used to talk about reforming the Fed and getting out of the Middle East. Now it’s starting to sound like just more Neo-Con blather. The proof is the prominence of that execrable know nothing Sarah Palin. That she is popular just shows the low level of American Culture. The proles say about her just what they said about Bush 2: I like her, she is just like me” – as if the speaker is fit to rule. No, you should want somebody smarter and more knowledgeable than yourself to to be commander and chief. It’s just another chapter of the old Adlai Stevenson/Eisenhower conflict; gown vs town. Americans are repelled by hierarchy, thus leaving themselves open to be ruled by those who can manipulate the mass mind. Hierarchy is not overcome, just made secret and corrupt.

  29. mayberrymachiavellian February 8, 2010 at 12:31 pm #

    Oh, and one last comment, apropos of Vegas and the gambling industry. I will never forget the first time I passed through Vegas, and saw for the first time the invisible “curtain” of air-conditioning at the open-air entrances to the casinos. That’s right, the proprietors did not want something as obstructive as a door to separate the soon-to-be-gulled customers from the rigged games devised to relieve them of their wages. So, they created “curtains” of high-velocity air-conditioning at the threshold of the property. In effect, they were blasting massive quantities of expensively-cooled air straight into the blast-furnace heat of the desert.
    I recalled the sharp parental rebukes of my childhood to close the door quickly when the AC was running, because of the cost of the electricity to cool said air, and contemplated the cost to the casino owners of air-conditioning the entire 110-degree Nevada desert. It was then that the scale of the massive and certain profitability of the “gaming industry” began to dawn on me.

  30. Dark Fired Tobacco February 8, 2010 at 12:33 pm #

    Jim, look at a map of Nashville. The Opryland complex is essentially within the central city area. It just happens to be isolated within a bend in the Cumberland River. Moreover, the “real” Grande Olde Opry building is still downtown; I’m looking at it now.
    Opposing runaway spending does not make one a Nazi, and having an Ivy League degree does not make one wise. However, the South remains the punching bag for the East Coast elite. Apparently, burning Atlanta, Georgia, and Meridian, Mississippi to the ground just isn’t enough for some people.

  31. Mrt Mojave February 8, 2010 at 12:35 pm #

    @Wagelaborer…That’s brilliant. I think you just made me cry a little.

  32. Pangolin February 8, 2010 at 12:36 pm #

    OK pissant, let’s rephrase that in terms you can understand.
    The Chinese have several Trillion in US currency. Suppose they use that to buy up all the property in YOUR TOWN and move 852K people there on phony H1b visas that they buy from the corrupt government. They would OWN the property by your definition but your racist-white-ass would still object to the OWNERS of the property moving their relatives onto it.
    Suddenly your dumb ass is as socialist as I am because you would object to the Chinese expressing their private property rights. Isn’t objecting to what a person or corporation does with their property TAKING in your dumb-fuck world? Don’t think moving will help either because the scale of the debt is such that they can do this again and again because dumb fucks like you elected conservatives who shipped every manufacturing job to China under the premise of free trade.
    So yeah. I’m honest. I believe in taking the idle assets of the ultra-rich and putting them to work for regular citizens. You, on the other hand, indulge in your aryan master race fantasies just for the purpose of fapping.

  33. Desertrat February 8, 2010 at 12:40 pm #

    I know folks from three different Tea Parties. Pretty much typical middle-class, focussed on excess spending and harmful levels of taxation.
    The San Antonio gathering had no rhetorical blather allowed. No right-wing-whacko signs. Young and old, Gringo and Hispanic.
    Anybody who thinks this “medical reform” is actually an improvement just hasn’t read the provisions of the Senate bill. It doesn’t do damn-all to improve anything; it will raise the cost of insurance premiums and add to the deficit.
    To alleviate ignorance: The Grand Old Opry has been around since 1925. It’s hardly a “post-WW II” event. And it’s not that it’s proponents can’t spell; it’s merely a phonetic spelling of how the word is pronounced “down south”. It’s certainly no worse than a Bostonian’s “I sawr the movie.” Or “Cuber”.
    Sorry, Jim. I share your views about energy and monetary policy, but you come across as ignorant of first-hand real-world knowledge of much of the country’s population. Unjustifiably snobbish, young man…
    ‘Rat

  34. ELI316 February 8, 2010 at 12:41 pm #

    Since this country produces absolutely nothing of importance anymore gambling and casinos have become our only economy. As far as the Tea Party is concerned the faster Sarah Palin is elected president of this casino nation the faster it’s demise will be. Just think what is going to happen when this poor, decrepit old worn country runs out of medicare and social security. Hooooowah

  35. trippticket February 8, 2010 at 12:42 pm #

    “Americans are repelled by hierarchy, thus leaving themselves open to be ruled by those who can manipulate the mass mind. Hierarchy is not overcome, just made secret and corrupt.”
    Amen, man. But for some reason the masses don’t see the option that has captivated me for the past 2 years:
    Let ‘em rot. Withdraw your support and involvement in the formal economy, and let ‘em rot. If you don’t buy anything from them, they don’t matter.
    But apparently that’s a less attractive idea than having an enormous LCD tele to piss and moan at…

  36. insanity shelter February 8, 2010 at 12:43 pm #

    >The closest we came to fiscal responsibility was under Bill Clinton who left a somewhat balanced budget and a projected surplus.
    I’ll never understand whether the folks who say this are deceitful or just dumb. The Clinton surpluses were the result of… ready… the Dot Com bubble.
    A few years ago I had someone (a very well informed Australian) tell me about what a great manager of the economy Clinton was, and I explained this concept to him.
    Then, the VERY NEXT DAY, he put a move on again to tell me what a great manager of the economy Clinton was, with no additional input or arguments.
    I thought WTF??? And this is a smart guy!!! Just speechless.
    But one of the first rules of human nature is people will believe what they want to believe.

  37. trippticket February 8, 2010 at 12:45 pm #

    Yeah, Wage, I like the road entitlement argument a lot myself.

  38. wagelaborer February 8, 2010 at 12:50 pm #

    My sister got a free horse from this sort of thing.
    A man and his wife were living on what she thought was their ranch for about 10 years. They had about 200 head of horses.
    Turns out the ranch was owned by a Chinese investor. When the jig was up, the man disappeared, leaving his wife with all those horses and about to be evicted.
    The sheriff agreed to let her get rid of the horses and she gave them away. My sister now has a crazy unrideable horse. For free.
    I was impressed with the story and we were passing a beautiful unoccupied ranch, with an enormous ranch house. Hey, I said. There’s a place for us!
    When we got closer we saw the sign. Property of Bechtel. Oops. Never mind.
    And thanks, Mrt Mojave. Your compliment was appreciated.

  39. Liberty Above All February 8, 2010 at 12:53 pm #

    Tea parties and Nazis. Hmmm! You Yankees invented the tea party. I believe it was the “Boston Tea Party”. It was about excessive taxation, are maybe taxation without representation. It was in Boston, where the liberal socialists have now taken hold. If you just have the right bureaucratic in power with the right idea, everything will be alright. Bullshit!
    Those who attend these “Tea Parties” want the same thing, probably, as the Bostonians of the 18th century. They want to keep the money out of other people’s hands, especially politicians.
    The Nazis were socialists. You Yankees can call them Facists, if you want. What’s the difference? Does anyone understand that?
    Become a libertarian. If don’t understand what they stand for, read some of the writings of Thomas Jefferson.

  40. Pangolin February 8, 2010 at 12:55 pm #

    What your fellow employee couldn’t say out loud was that she trusted Sarah Palin not to give any of her money to those people by which she meant anybody two shades darker than her.
    A gathering of a hundred thousand liberals doesn’t get a mention on the national propaganda and the Tea baggers get wall-to-wall coverage of that tiny crowd.
    Can we call it fascism NOW?

  41. heckler February 8, 2010 at 12:56 pm #

    Fuck Las Vegas and fuck Nevada, and fuck all the casino operators in every pulsating gambling venue around this country.
    Question 1: Do you include Wall Street and its cheerleaders at Obama’s alma mater (Harvard) and honorary alma mater (U Chicago) in the category “gambling venue”?
    wouldn’t “repulsive” work better than “pulsating?

  42. Cash February 8, 2010 at 1:05 pm #

    I’m with you on this. Look at what Mr K wrote:
    “The last thing we need is to continue believing that it is possible to get something for nothing, or an industry based on that false principle.”
    – An industry like the Wall Street bullshit factories maybe? False principle is their stock in trade.
    “I’d go a lot further and shut down legalized gambling all over the USA, send it back to the margins,”
    – Start with Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, AIG…
    I suppose this is precisely because a cardinal article of Tea Party faith is that it should be possible to get something for nothing.
    – Substitute “Wall Street” for “Tea Party”
    There’s no possible way that cornpones could do remotely as much damage as the smartypants bullshit artists from Washington, Wall Street, The Fed and Treasury and Ivy League colleges.
    The smartypants ran business, government, Wall Street and the banks not the cornpones.
    The cornpones that spent their lives in auto body shops, building sites, warehouses etc were expected to know how to fix cars, wire up houses, operate forklifts and by and large they did, they did their jobs. It’s the smartypants that didn’t.
    Who was in a position to see likely outcomes, the smartypants with the megabuck degrees at the helm of society’s institutions or the cornpones? You have to nail the blame for the mess we’re in on the smartypants not the cornpones.
    The cornpones are riled? They should be, their lives are going down the shitter. I don’t think the smartypants in their mansions and yachts are doing much suffering.

  43. Gregg February 8, 2010 at 1:06 pm #

    Those whom the gods would destroy, they first grant wishes.
    I’m sure the Wall Street crowd had no idea that their “me-first-fuck-the-rest” mentality would bring the house down around their heads.
    I’m also sure that the “corn-pone-Nazi-Teabaggers” have no idea where their sick fantasies will take them. Possibly to penury and perdition? We know to where their desires have already led them.
    Joe Sixpack and Sally Housecoat buried under credit card debt and drowing in underwater mortgages? Didn’t see it coming, fools?
    Congratulations all of you. You got what you wanted. The gods have smiled upon you and now they’re laughing themselves sick!

  44. DeeJones February 8, 2010 at 1:07 pm #

    Insane Shelter: I’ll never understand whether the folks who say this are deceitful or just dumb. The Clinton surpluses were the result of… ready… the Dot Com bubble.
    And so, whats your point? I don’t think that people that believe this are either dumb or deceitful. Remember, the .com bubble was popped by, wait for it, wait for it….Wall St hucksters!
    I, as well as many I know were involved in the so-called .com growth, and I can tell you that many a company that had a legitimate business idea or plan was promptly taken over by the MBAs who’s only idea was to do the IPO, and dump the stock ASAP so they could walk away with buck-o bucks. The real idea guys behind the company were either bought off or pushed out the door so the MBA types could get the IPO sold.
    And BTW, not all of the Clinton budget surplus can be attributed to the .com bubble, he also managed to cut spending (What? Not a tax&spender?) as well as RAISING taxes on the rich and big corporations, things that Bushit immediately reversed.
    No, the huge deficits and quickly spent surplus can all be attributed to the Bushit tax cuts to the wealthy.
    So, it looks like you are the a- dumb; or b- deceitful one, dude. Or just a plain asshole.

  45. ozone February 8, 2010 at 1:13 pm #

    JHK sez: “Future historians who try to chart the unraveling of the USA’s political tapestry might point to two events of the past week. The obvious first one was the Tea Party convention at Nashville. It was held not accidentally at the ridiculous Opryland Hotel and resort in the city’s outer suburban asteroid belt, right next to the circumferential freeway, and next door to the defunct (1997) Opryland USA theme park, an attraction based on the cute idea that Tennessee rubes were too dumb to spell the word opera — so the symbolism was perfect.”
    Wow! Nicely done, Mr. Kunstler.
    Having been to Gnashville quite recently, I can attest to the strange reality-denial, hemi-worshipping, dine-and-drink (and drink s’more) atmosphere of the entire area. (Suspicious local to visitor: “You must be one a’ them READERS I hear’d tell of.”)
    For hundreds and hundreds of square miles around, every-damn-thing is about to be doomed to an isolation that is going to be a horrid shock to most of these folks. Once gas and diesel become to dear to motor on down to the Waffle House, it’s gonna get ugly FAST. Things are much too far apart to be sustained any other way. (Well, plenty of horse breeding going on, sooooo, slow, but steady
    wins the race?)
    As for Gnashville itself? I think it really could be a viable entity in a lot of ways. They’ve actually made quite a bit of useful public spaces. The area “in back of” the capitol, where the farmers market (etc.) resides, is a good example. The corporate skyscrapers and high-rise hotels won’t be good for much, but might provide some decent materials for recycling and repurposing. There is good land thereabouts, and the river should make trading a viable occupation.
    BTW, I drove there (many, many hours), so I saw first-hand the dying towns and super-moto-buy-all-your-useless-shit-here centers along the way. I was a bit shocked; and I don’t shock easy. To purposely build this kind of “lifestyle infrastructure” was awfully shortsighted… not to mention insane.

  46. not mommy February 8, 2010 at 1:23 pm #

    “What your fellow employee couldn’t say out loud was that she trusted Sarah Palin not to give any of her money to those people by which she meant anybody two shades darker than her.”
    Well, well a mind reader. This is what she (Palin really meant.) Riiight, in your FUCKTARDED head.

  47. trippticket February 8, 2010 at 1:31 pm #

    If the truly powerful global elites have retained and reinforced their wholistic systemic understandings with the recent insights from Chaos Theory, cybernetics, and systems ecology, and developed alternatives to top-down managerial control, then they wield a power few of us can imagine. -David Holmgren, permaculture co-originator
    That is, as long as we participate in the system, we will be manipulated, either intentionally or serendipitously, in the service of the elite.
    The only REAL threat to the status quo arises from our disinterest (i.e. rather than debating CFL vs. incandescent light bulb by which to read, we choose instead to go to bed). The Republican and Democratic parties are different in just enough social issues to convince people that they are choosing a morally-superior position by siding with one or the other. When in reality they both work in the service of the elite – the left and right hands of the puppet-masters.
    Neither the Greens nor the Tea Baggers are terribly different. They see options, but only options within a larger systems stasis, when what we now face is an underlying tide change in HOW we relate to our ecosystem. It’s not a choice between Dem or Pub, capitalism or socialism, and any discussion of that is to miss the importance of what’s going on.
    Instead of learning to fly, we hop around and fight over the biggest piece of shit in the nest.

  48. wagelaborer February 8, 2010 at 1:31 pm #

    This is the South. She did say it out loud.
    She referenced one of our Frequent Flyers with dark skin and a really bad attitude as someone she didn’t want to have health care. It’s ridiculous, because she does now. Her ER visits are state funded, and when we have to call the police, that’s city funded.
    And yeah, I went to a Wash, DC demonstration in 2005 that was attended by at least 500,000 people. The only news coverage was the local paper, the Washington Post, which put it in the local section.
    But 600 teabaggers? Top story. And every gathering so far has gotten extensive coverage.
    Yes. I can say fascism.
    What most people don’t realize is that even a police state doesn’t affect most people. You’re not going to be in a concentration camp unless you protest effectively.
    http://wagelaborer.blogspot.com/2008/01/is-it-fascism-yet.html

  49. Mr. Purple February 8, 2010 at 1:32 pm #

    “There might be a day we wished we were as well off as Weimar….”
    Indeed. The Germans of the Weimar era were a relatively organized bunch. Of course, later adopting a policy that drove out a great number of their physicists (I’m talking anti-Semitism here) wasn’t very bright. So I guess the lesson should be: keep your smart people around, even if it makes some of the idiots feel insecure.

  50. not mommy February 8, 2010 at 1:37 pm #

    Furthermore, here is what Jimmy’s brilliant state, New Yawk, gives us. Andrew Fucking Cuomo. Big Andy who is going after the evil bankers. The same Andy who was Secretary of Housing and Urban Development during the Clinton Administration. And what did ole Andy do whilst there? Well feast your peeps on the following from the Village Voice (of all fucking sources):
    “Andrew Cuomo, the youngest Housing and Urban Development secretary in history, made a series of decisions between 1997 and 2001 that gave birth to the country’s current crisis. He took actions that—in combination with many other factors—helped plunge Fannie and Freddie into the subprime markets without putting in place the means to monitor their increasingly risky investments. He turned the Federal Housing Administration mortgage program into a sweetheart lender with sky-high loan ceilings and no money down, and he legalized what a federal judge has branded “kickbacks” to brokers that have fueled the sale of overpriced and unsupportable loans.”
    So this piece of sanctimonious shit, is grandstanding around on how he is going to clean up Wall Street and he did more damage with his FUCKTARDED policies than any 10 banks. And guess who will most likely end up as Governor of Jimmy’s brilliant, Northern state?

  51. Mr. Purple February 8, 2010 at 1:37 pm #

    “the Nazis were not trying to make a profit off each other.”
    Sort of, but a lot of the industrialists who joined the Nazi party profited from the slave labor that concentration camps could provide.

  52. Mr. Purple February 8, 2010 at 1:44 pm #

    “Ban speculation on oil.”
    Why not just (legislatively) make oil a renewable resource while you’re at it? Or at least ban poverty.

  53. not mommy February 8, 2010 at 1:48 pm #

    Here, here…banning povery…briliant. It’s over. ‘Cause we said so.

  54. Mr. Purple February 8, 2010 at 1:53 pm #

    ” wouldn’t “repulsive” work better than “pulsating? ”
    I think “pulsating” describes the appearance of Las Vegas casinos and their spawn pretty well. “Repulsive” would best be applied to the carpet there.

  55. Ancona February 8, 2010 at 1:54 pm #

    For those who have not begun the journey back to sanity, planted a garden and worked out how we
    re going to survive when the lights do go out [and they will] I wish you good fortune.
    To those who have prepared or who are preparing, I say cheers to you.
    To all of the hypocrites in congress I say burn in hell jackasses. All of the casinos in the U.S. are here for one reason and one reason only….revenue. The voice of the people counts for nothing when a municipality or state gets it in their heads that this is a revenue blessing. Same with lotteries. What a fucking immoral waste.
    Saving the floundering automakers was another in a series of brilliant maneuvers designed by our ordained elites to save the unions and foist the expense onto the backs of working class America.
    The time is coming when taxes must be raised, or government is shrunk, so get ready for it folks, because they sure as hell won’t shrink the government or military sacred cows.
    We need a new political party….The Personal Responsibility Party of America.

  56. trippticket February 8, 2010 at 1:56 pm #

    “Here, here…banning povery…briliant. It’s over. ‘Cause we said so.”
    I think that was a joke, Mommy.

  57. Grouchy Old Girl February 8, 2010 at 1:58 pm #

    Good column this week, as usual. Thanks to JHK, I am now educated on the Weimar Republic, and had the privilege of reading an article from the Christian Science Monitor excoriating Obama for his comments about gambling in Vegas. That came from my quest to find out more about Reid’s nutbar objections to what Obama said.
    I wouldn’t have believed this publication would side with the gambling industry if I hadn’t seen the article. Fucking bizarre, like so much of what goes on in America these days. Living on the other side of Lake Ontario, in Canada, I see lots of that bizarro world thinking happening here too, and I wish we could shut you guys off sometimes.
    We have Palin devotees here too, and a prime minister who is a fundamentalist Christian with delusions of becoming the new incarnation of George W. Bush. He clearly learns from your Tea Partiers and assorted other wing nuts and some of our more gullible citizens eat it right up.
    But don’t worry, these idiots will just give all our water, oil, natural gas and wood away to you Americans when you run out, then take a pat on the head for compensation.
    Why if I was younger I would call for a revolution, now please! I figure we have about five minutes left before it`s too late.

  58. dale February 8, 2010 at 1:59 pm #

    “And yeah, I went to a Wash, DC demonstration in 2005 that was attended by at least 500,000 people. The only news coverage was the local paper, the Washington Post, which put it in the local section.
    But 600 teabaggers? Top story. And every gathering so far has gotten extensive coverage.”
    ========================================
    Yeah….funny how those anti-war protests were “so yesterday”, no matter how many people attended. (at least that would be the conclusion one would come to) But Sarah and 600 tea baggers, Well….we’ll hear about that for days on end….count on it!
    Sui bono folks….Sui bono.

  59. cowswithguns February 8, 2010 at 1:59 pm #

    Right on, Jim. Fuck Vegas and fuck casinos, including Indian casinos.
    Here in California, there’s a push for more slot machines in tribal casinos.
    The state will cave in — as it would rather do that than raise taxes — and this can only end in disaster.
    As the populace gets poorer and more desperate, it will flock to casinos, which will make it poorer and more desperate.
    The US is now but a giant tapeworm devouring itself.
    But, hey, at least we have the Super Bowl — and cheese puffs.
    PS — Why no dissin’ of the Super Bowl, Jim?

  60. Grouchy Old Girl February 8, 2010 at 2:10 pm #

    I was right there with you Ancona until you piped up and identified unions as one of the enemies of `working class America“. Union members ARE working class Americans, and at least here in Canada they fight for much more than their own wages and benefits.
    Thanks to them, in Ontario we have a network of unemployed help centres started by Labour to help non unionized workers and the disadvantaged. Their social justice funds deliver vital funding to grass roots organizations fighting for equality and they have stood up for women`s rights too.
    As long as so many of us fail to recognise our allies and continue to fight with them, instead of joining and working with them, we will never overcome injustice.
    If it comes to a choice between management and union, I know which side I am on.

  61. trippticket February 8, 2010 at 2:13 pm #

    You’re a clever one, aren’t you, pissant?
    Do you think that uttering your repulsive 5 word vocabulary over and over makes you a big man on the net? You spineless spray of monkey spunk.
    Do us all a favor and remove the need for the planet to produce resources for you.

  62. wardoc February 8, 2010 at 2:15 pm #

    Jim, for a Yankeeee, you have a damned accurate view of at least one of the, unfortunately, major cultural threads in the south. As far as the significant minority you refer to (or maybe I’m delusional and its the majority), you seem to realize that they will not take the dissolution and eventual trashing of their newly (post WWII) acquired comfortable lifestyle quietly or with any degree of dignity. Things are going to get very violent here very quickly, I fear. The only thing holding it back now is, paradoxically, the main stream media’s false and ridiculous insistence that the recovery is rolling along and that good times are just around the corner. When food prices really start escalating, when air conditioning is too expensive for any but the wealthy, when gasoline goes over a sustained $6/gallon, when the true unemployment level (U-6) goes to 30% (its at 23% now), the shit will hit the fan here in Dixie. We’ll see a crime wave the likes of which Argentina has not seen or imagined. And, I would hate to be a member of the outgroup that the redneck hoardes focus on as the cause of their economic demise. For that matter, I would probably avoid having a northern state license plate being on interstates 10 or 75 going from north to south Florida once the fan gets hit. We’ll see things that our grandchildren will tell tales about for hundreds of years, for sure. And then, the corn pone Hitler will arise to fix things….
    Lock and load…
    and Be careful
    Wardoc, from deep in Dixie, and surrounded.

  63. trippticket February 8, 2010 at 2:16 pm #

    “The US is now but a giant tapeworm devouring itself.”
    Great image.

  64. k-dog February 8, 2010 at 2:17 pm #

    oh KAY
    ed-doo-cashun time.
    ‘corn-pone’
    As in corn-pone nazi
    Mark Twain talking about a black slave philosopher He once listened whilst the slave worked as a carpenter.

    I can never forget it. It was deeply impressed upon me. By my mother. Not upon my memory, but elsewhere. She had slipped in upon me while I was absorbed and not watching. The black philosopher’s idea was that a man is not independent, and cannot afford views which might interfere with his bread and butter. If he would prosper, he must train with the majority; in matters of large moment, like politics and religion, he must think and feel with the bulk of his neighbors, or suffer damage in his social standing and in his business prosperity. He must restrict himself to corn-pone opinions–at least on the surface. He must get his opinions from other people; he must reason out none for himself; he must have no first-hand views.

    FYI

  65. mean dovey cooledge February 8, 2010 at 2:18 pm #

    i enjoy reading about Jim’s american south, because it offers an opportunity to showcase the prejudice of people who would recoil at such grotesque characterizations of almost any other group. every holla back to Jim’s indictment of an entire geographic region is a reminder that hatred of a certain sanctioned kind is alive and well in a forum where higher ideals are often debated. its kinda funny.

  66. Jersey New February 8, 2010 at 2:19 pm #

    Regarding our gambling/entertainment opium, what can be more telling and ironic than the former Bethlehem Steel Mill in Bethlehem, PA. that was turned into a casino, albeit with tv cartoon dealers.

  67. trippticket February 8, 2010 at 2:25 pm #

    Tests often show that people will choose an answer they know is wrong if they also know that the majority has chosen this answer.
    Fortunately for us, “increased biodiversity,” of the kind that waxes under energetics reversals, can mean lots of useful things.

  68. trippticket February 8, 2010 at 2:32 pm #

    As a southerner myself, I’m not sure that some prejudices aren’t warranted.
    Any commenters here obese? Hey, extra chunky! It’s not a disease. Put down the jelly donut! That food you’re eating belongs to someone else!
    Is that prejudice? If it is, fuck it. It’s time someone starts levelling with these over-indulged, entitled, greedy, self-important throw pillows.
    Resources from here on will get tighter. If we get to cannabalism I say we start with the well-marbled…

  69. trouter February 8, 2010 at 2:36 pm #

    Jim – I am from upstate NY originally and still live on the east coast. You seem to view the south as beyond saving – not sure I agree. Have you ever read the collection of essays by the writers known as “the Southern Agrarians?” The book is called I’LL TAKE MY STAND. Please excuse me if you have already discussed this. I am new to your blog. Anyway I would be interested in your take on what these writers had to say about the older culture of the south, before the cars and strip malls and such. Of course I don’t mean slavery! Granted the authors did not really address the race issue, and where they did it was with the bias of their time. Yet I found their arguments about a lost agricultural and spiritual heritage to be persuasive. Do you think any of that can be recovered? I have never received hospitality of the quality that was shown to me a few years back while visiting in Mississippi and parts of Georgia and South Carolina. It felt to me like a whisper of the old South was still there. What do you think?

  70. Hoping4bestpreparingforworst February 8, 2010 at 2:37 pm #

    Come on! Jim exagerated just a wee bit. I live in NC, but am from NY. There are more northerners here than southerners. I’ve seen a little of what he’s talking about, but not that much. But, he’s right about the surburban sprawl mentality here. They don’t see the folly of not having invested in a real public transportation system. The only people you really see using public transportation here are poor people, and you have to drive to EVERYTHING! Very few walkable neighborhoods with the exception of downtown Raleigh,and maybe a few other places. Even something like a mild snowstorm puts the brakes on functionality here. They ran out of gas and food within hours of the snowstorm that hit us last week.

  71. Ancona February 8, 2010 at 2:52 pm #

    Have you looked at the U.S. recently? We are a shadow of our former selves. The unions have succeeded in many ways, but are damaging our country by many more. Look at the usurious rates they charge in so many union powered states. When we have high school grads working municipal jobs earning six figure incomes, then retiring at 51 1/2 to collect 90 percent of their highest paid year for life [all on the backs of the taxpayers who do not get anything close to this benefit] we have a problem. I have no problem with unions, just when they demand endless raises and concessions irrespective of the economic climate.
    What is it that makes you think that the rest of Americans want to subsidize this elaborate and generous plan when they will likely get nothing when social security is bankrupt in a few years.
    Rabid support of unions wearing a blindfold will only bring about their demise.
    The American People deserve equality….not equality for some to be paid on the backs of others.

  72. rwday February 8, 2010 at 2:53 pm #

    “Notice, by the way, that the Tea Party people have never made an issue about the disgusting gambling “industry” — not even the Jesus thumpers among them, for all their pretense about decency and propriety. I suppose this is precisely because a cardinal article of Tea Party faith is that it should be possible to get something for nothing. ”
    No sir, it is a cardinal article of Tea Party faith, at least to some of us, that individuals should be free to engage in whatever consensual activities they please, including those the elites find distasteful.

  73. mthomas February 8, 2010 at 2:56 pm #

    I agree that we’re heading for serious inflation problems, and I think that one of the only ways for people to at least try to protect themselves is to invest in gold and gold mining stocks because of the continued debasement of the U.S. dollar. I read a pretty interesting article on some of these topics at http://www.goldalert.com/ called “Gold Price Holds $1,050 – Gold Correction Over?” that discusses the Federal Reserve and government’s continued efforts to try to avoid the recession by printing more money, and the expense of our deficit and the dollar.

  74. Steve M. February 8, 2010 at 2:59 pm #

    We’re Weimar? That’s just what I’ve been saying! I wrote about that on my own blog back in December! Didn’t I say here that Obama is Swahili for Hindenburg?
    But did you have to belittle Reba McIntire or Dolly Parton like that? :-O

  75. mean dovey cooledge February 8, 2010 at 3:07 pm #

    wow. i dont know who or where the “redneck hoards” you talk about originally came from, but real southerners are quite adept at an air conditioned free life. there’s an architecture for that, you know.
    your comment reminds me of something Lewis Grizzard said:
    “Delta is ready when you are”
    as i look out on my fertile field, prepped to receive early seeds for salad vegetables and listen to the cheerful rumbling of a clear creek running out of a federal wilderness that spans two states; admire abundant wildlife and songbirds and plan for my last steps toward self sufficiency, i reflect on ways the negative stereotyping might work to my advantage. yeah, ya’ll would hate it down here. stay away!

  76. mean dovey cooledge February 8, 2010 at 3:12 pm #

    if you haven’t read “another turn of the crank” by Wendell Berry, i think you would enjoy it. it was of particular interest to me as it contained a chapter on forest economies. Berry had an essay in “i’ll take my stand”.
    btw, we have a “trouter” too. a rhodesian ridgeback.

  77. dale February 8, 2010 at 3:15 pm #

    “Obama is Swahili for Hindenburg?”
    =================================
    He…He…Looking more like that everyday, and I worked on his campaign. “Democrats”….when it comes down to the leadership, they always choose the big contributors over the people who elected them everytime,and they wonder why they lose elections? When they discourage half the electorate (most of which are natural democrats) and listen to consultants who consider it politically wise to abandon their principals and fight over the so-called independents, you know the situation is hopeless.
    Anyone who stood back and looked at the massive legalized corruption which is D.C., couldn’t be bothered with any of it, except as a source of satire.

  78. Will February 8, 2010 at 3:17 pm #

    JK–
    Inside the mammoth Health ‘reform’ proposal(which almost nobody has even read) from our empty suit Leader was the proposal to cut $500B in medicare benefits over the course of ten years– That money would ostensibly have gone as subsidies to Big Pharma and the megalithic Insurance bastion– Perhaps to be followed later by contributions from the aforementioned Greed Corps’ to a presidential library as payola for a job well done– Maybe the old boy with the keep gubmint hands off his medicare was onto something– The sense of entitlement that the mega social programs have engendered didn’t initiate from CrackerLand but from the basically ponzi-funded legislation championed by the Northeast Liberal Elites from FDR forward to the smarter-than-thou- members of the NYTimes-poisoned Hip-oisee’–
    MarkTwain once remarked that History never repeats itself but it certainly seems to rhyme on occasion– Our version of the Weimar collapse should me monikered the My-Car Republic– There isn’t a single government in the world whose legitimacy isn’t leaking away in direct and dismal proportion to its’ financial integrity–
    will

  79. insanity shelter February 8, 2010 at 3:20 pm #

    >But did you have to belittle Reba McIntire or Dolly Parton like that? :-O
    Agreed, it’s like we don’t like hard left wing koo-koo thought so we attack Alantis Morissete. Clearly that’d be a move only assholes would make.

  80. trippticket February 8, 2010 at 3:24 pm #

    “if you haven’t read “another turn of the crank” by Wendell Berry,”
    actually, I think most of Wendell Berry’s writing could be more appreciated among this group.

  81. insanity shelter February 8, 2010 at 3:25 pm #

    You nailed ‘em Dovey. They’re all hypocrites.

  82. Karl February 8, 2010 at 3:29 pm #

    Here is a chart of all post WW2 job losses, and then recoveries. At this stage, months 27-29 all job losses were completely recovered in all recessions but 2001-2003. And that recession was a pimple compared to this one.
    Recovery? Hah.
    http://www.fundmymutualfund.com/2010/02/job-loss-rates-across-post-ww2.html

  83. asia February 8, 2010 at 3:31 pm #

    and ..remember..its from the pen of someone whos banned at least one blogger here for his ‘ racism’…kettle calls the pot black!
    this is from craigs today. cant vouch for all its facts:
    As of 2008 Pelosi has an net worth of 12.5 million dollars.
    Her husband owns 25 million dollars in real estate.
    Military flights costs 20 thousand dollars per hour to operate.
    Pelosi reimburses the government $120.00 – $400.00 per flight.
    We the tax payers pick up the balance.
    The major abuse comes from shuttling her grown kids and grandkids to and fro.
    Californians need to do their utmost to rid the USA of her!!
    http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2010/02/pelosis_monumental_abuse_of_mi._html

  84. trippticket February 8, 2010 at 3:33 pm #

    Which makes me think of Asia. Where is Asia today? Tell me, Asia, more about why you “don’t think much of Jared Diamond.”
    I think Diamond is a world-class intellectual.

  85. asia February 8, 2010 at 3:36 pm #

    o yes! I talk with someone in silicon valley who says:
    ‘the only folks here buyin houses are asians and they have Million in cash to pay for the house. they then move lotsa ‘immigrants’ into the house. toilets are cardboard boxes in the closets’
    I KID YOU NOT.

  86. trippticket February 8, 2010 at 3:38 pm #

    Ah, right on time…

  87. asia February 8, 2010 at 3:39 pm #

    ‘And yeah, I went to a Wash, DC demonstration in 2005 that was attended by at least 500,000 people. The only news coverage was the local paper, the Washington Post, which put it in the local section.’
    What demonstration?
    and why did the compost put it in the city section?

  88. Workingman1 February 8, 2010 at 3:46 pm #

    JKH – I doubt if you have ever spent anytime visiting or living in the South. Sounds like you did spend alot of time watching “The Dukes of Hazard”

  89. george February 8, 2010 at 3:55 pm #

    What a change from the situation the West faced in the 1990’s. We had finally all but banished Communism from the face of the Earth [true their were still minor, insignificant outposts in places like Cuba and North Korea] and their was no credible challenge to the turbocharged, hyper-free market economic model in sight. Oil was dirt-cheap, climate change did not yet pose a threat to our way of life, and with exception of a nasty turf war in the Balkans, things were quiet on the international front. What the hell were we thinking when we tried to sell the rest of the world on the merits of Starbucks, Wal-Mart and all-you-can-eat buffets?

  90. DeeJones February 8, 2010 at 3:55 pm #

    When we have high school grads working municipal jobs earning six figure incomes, then retiring at 51 1/2 to collect 90 percent of their highest paid year for life [all on the backs of the taxpayers who do not get anything close to this benefit] we have a problem. – ancona
    On the backs of the taxpayers? How? The Unions have thier OWN pension plans, which have done better than the IRA/401’s the Hucksters on Wall St have fobbed off on all the non-union workers out there.
    So don’t make claims like that, its just anti-union propaganda, in other words, BULL SHIT.

  91. Darkstar February 8, 2010 at 3:56 pm #

    People lived in the South without AC and cars for hundreds of years. Thousands of years, if you count the Native Americans. Some of us will thrive here no matter what. Unfortunately, some will not, but I see that as a matter for compassion, not sneering.
    The region is far from perfect. No region is perfect – not even New England. But if you get into the rural South, there are a lot of people who still have the culture of helping neighbors and relying on each other. Even many of the churches, whether you agree with Christianity or not, have a long tradition of helping in the community and causing the community to pull together. That’s worth a lot in tough times.
    I also think JK’s overlooking the role of the very large Latino population in this country. Let’s see – hardworking, used to helping each other, putting their families first, used to walking everywhere (at least in my corner of the South), and used to hot weather. Twenty years from now, I wouldn’t be surprised to see the region mostly populated by Latinos.
    I agree with whoever it was who posted above about Joe Bageant. He really gets the plight of the common person in the South and the real causes of this plight. Follow the money and don’t blame it all on the regional culture. JK could learn a lot from Joe Bageant, both in class analysis and compassion.

  92. RecoverylessRecovery February 8, 2010 at 4:03 pm #

    Are the Tea Partyers an incoherent bunch of loosely organized people who lack normal clarity or intelligibility in speech or thought?
    YES!
    BUT THEN AGAIN, SO DOES THE U.S. FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. And unlike the U.S. Federal government, at least the Tea Partyers are sincere, patriotic and worried about the direction (DOWNWARDS!) that this country is headed in.
    Also, the Tea Partyers are the ENEMY of MY enemy (namely; Hussein Obankster, Goldman Sachs et al) which makes them MY FRIENDS as far as I’m concerned.
    And friends should NEVER criticize friends.

  93. Pangolin February 8, 2010 at 4:06 pm #

    Every time somebody tries to improve the schools in the South there is a huge hue and cry about the horrible taxes so the stupid goes on generation after generation. It isn’t an accident that the old South has the worst schools and the biggest churches. They’re being KEPT stupid for a reason.
    There’s plenty of homeless in the south and corruption and graft to go with. Don’t tell us how wonderful and Christian you are because anyone watching three episodes of COPS knows it doesn’t mean crap. It’s one thing to not have access to education but to make stupid your culture; well, that’s special.

  94. Paul Dorn February 8, 2010 at 4:17 pm #

    Great comments Jim. But how can you not mention the cynical appearance of Sarah Palin? I watched some of her “address” and it was so patronizing and bull shit. Who are these people who admire her?
    There is real pain out there. My hope is “the next revolution” is secular and progressive, not theocratic and reactionary. Obamaphilia disarms progressives; he’s part of the problem, not the solution (Geithner, Summers, Afghanistan, Pakistan, etc.) We can’t trust Democrats to defend democracy.

  95. trippticket February 8, 2010 at 4:22 pm #

    And so what does this rant have to do with me? Not arguing with you, just wondering how this is a reply to Trippticket.
    I’m an land-grant educated lefty ecologist (with a bad agronomy habit) that homeschools his children in a non-religious curriculum, integrated with the natural world and natural daily biorythyms, and put off by the robotic corporate behavior of acts as simple as waking kids up to an alarm and marching them to school.
    Sound like a typical southerner to you? Sound like a typical American to you, for that matter?

  96. trippticket February 8, 2010 at 4:32 pm #

    I’m here to talk about opting out. I’m not in the complaining business.

  97. snowiegeorgie February 8, 2010 at 4:33 pm #

    Respectfully, I would like to tell all who are saying that WJC left us a budget in surplus, you are deluding yourselves just as WJC misled our completely deluded nation.

    Social Security receipts were used to cover the budget shortfall; and, more importantly, if the budget was submitted and analyzed on an accrual accounting basis ( as all U S Corporations MUST DO ) instead of a cash accounting basis – the USA has not run any surplus in the last 40 or 50 years.

    This is a fact, and arguing the point won’t change the facts. Listen to the honorable and honest David Walker or anyone else who speaks truth to power. See the movie IOUSA, and so forth.

    We are broke and have had trillion dollar deficits for much of the last 20 years when the budget is tallied on an accrual accounting basis.

    Yes, I know that the “power to tax” and “to print money” makes cash accounting work for all of our lying leaders. But I would like to ask you all, howzatt working for you?

    It’s long past time for truth, wouldn’t you say?

    SnowieGeorgie

  98. cowswithguns February 8, 2010 at 4:34 pm #

    Exactly, all Obama does is put on some nice spin to make it look like he’s actually thinking about doing something; all the while the corrupt Wall Streeters loot the treasury and ensure the destruction of our currency, while we gaze in awe at our mighty leader.
    He gives them the extra time the need to convert their ill-gotten gains into gold bars stashed on some private island somewhere.

  99. cowswithguns February 8, 2010 at 4:36 pm #

    The South has been purging itself of its best and brightest for generations.

  100. Pangolin February 8, 2010 at 4:49 pm #

    Tripp_ Sorry about that. I started one thought and finished with another and didn’t change the tag.
    A tiny minority will be able to cash out, get a property with no mortgage and live like you. The rest of us have to make do with what life we can organize in the cities and inner-burbs.
    Ultimately there will be a LOT of frustrated people who were shoved out of land and houses only to watch them sit empty. Until we fix the money/debt mess many, many people will be SOL.
    Skills don’t matter for crap if you’re living out of a book bag sized backpack and that’s all a lot of the shelters will allow in.

  101. Solar Guy February 8, 2010 at 4:54 pm #

    Oh how delicate our system is…
    2′ of snow in Pittsburgh gave me the real taste of the long emergency I truly needed. I have visualized many of the situations discussed and described that may occur in the very near future… But seeing empty shelves where milk and bread were once overstocked…every generator, lantern, flashlight and battery sold out…3 gas stations closed and the 4th with a line 20 cars deep…Transportation was at a stand still for a day until the plows caught up and still greatly slowed down at that…Phone calls from far and near asking for help… Although only a short blip in time… It was an excellent opportunity to envision the situation as if it were permanent…or even simply a regular occurrence…hooking up a generator to run the furnace was a game changing experience as well…
    Cheers World… and thank you JHK for the site…

  102. Corey February 8, 2010 at 5:13 pm #

    Hey Tea Partier, do the consensual activities you refer to also include gay sex, gay marriage, smoking marijuana, playing online poker at home, and getting abortions?

  103. Corey February 8, 2010 at 5:14 pm #

    Screw off gold bug, like Gold is going to help us eat and heat our houses when TSHTFAN.

  104. pam jones February 8, 2010 at 5:15 pm #

    Jim,
    The progressives and peakers and doomers here in Nashville were appalled to have the Tea Party Convention here. Just so you know, we’re not all rubes. There’s even a Transition movement happening now. And there’s a lot of foodie stuff going on — several large community gardens, Manna, Food Security Partners. And those of us who get it network with folk in places like Hohenwald and Summertown, where I believe you have acquaintances yourself. So don’t give up on Nashville. Some of us do know how to say opera — believe it or not (to invoke the motto of the Ripley’s museum in Gatlinburg, TN – a place you would love to hate).
    Love your stuff, thanks for your work.
    Pam

  105. Pangolin February 8, 2010 at 5:18 pm #

    It would be nice to think that a lot of people will have time to consider adding a lot more insulation to their houses. The big energy sources of this century will be thermal mass and straw bales stacked to keep the cold off the house.
    There will never be enough wood to heat the northeast with it’s current population. There might be enough insulation.

  106. Neon Vincent February 8, 2010 at 5:26 pm #

    I’ve been wondering when Joe Bageant’s name would appear here in response to Jim’s mocking of the rural working class. While both Joe and Jim think their response has been wrong-headed and not in their best interests, and that the system has been hollowed out (Joe calls it “The Hologram” while Jim calls it “The Consensus Trance”–same thing, really), Joe is much more understanding of their plight and explains how they got there, while Jim displays a visceral dislike of the same people that seems to border on a defense against fear of them.
    I would be remiss if I didn’t mention that I think dialog between Joe and Jim would be a good thing. At the very worst, it would degenerate into an entertaining display of verbal pyrotechnics. At best, it would be a fruitful exchange of ideas between two people who are feeling different parts of the same elephant. Either way, I’d enjoy the result.

  107. Arthur February 8, 2010 at 5:28 pm #

    I’m always amazed at the total lack of historical knowledge, displayed by Americans.
    America is Weimar?????? You really don’t have a clue, what you’re talking about.
    So where are the street fights between the left and the right? Where was the attempted coup d’etat by the right? Where was the general counter strike? Where was the attempt at a communist revolution? Which war was lost with what humiliating treaty as a consequence?? Has Kunstler got any idea how deeply looked down upon by the rest of the world many Germans felt between the wars?
    Americans can be so silly, when trying to portrait themselves as failed Europeans. You’re a bunch of nitwits, basing your knowledge on some half baked television documentaries.

  108. trippticket February 8, 2010 at 5:29 pm #

    “Until we fix the money/debt mess many, many people will be SOL. ”
    Do you think it will ever be “fixed”? I honestly think there’s a good chance of a major dissolution in the near future. How much longer can they prop up the banking system that legitimizes debt, with Xerox copies of money? Where is the event horizon that tells people to just stay put and not move out, no matter how many nastygrams they send? Or better yet, move back into an empty one if you like it. Ultimately, feeding and housing the poor and newly poor (in traditional ways) will cost more than any government is making. At that point I think people will just start taking over abandoned houses and growing food. Guerilla gardening is already pretty big in some areas. Fresh produce contributions at the shelters were WAY up last gardening season. There are mycophiles on the west coast wearing clothes laced with the spores of desirable mushroom species, everywhere they go.
    Not suggesting that we’re there yet, just wondering.
    So do you have a thing for anteaters?

  109. Pangolin February 8, 2010 at 5:37 pm #

    Arthur_The real scary bit is that the crew here, even pissant, are the cream of the crop outside of university science faculty. The average citizen just can’t be bothered to engage at all much less contemplate how energy and monetary policy affects our lives and livelihoods.
    If it doesn’t pad the paycheck or make them forget the outside world they do not want to know.
    Americans are like chimps with nuclear weapons. With apologies to the chimps.

  110. Corey February 8, 2010 at 5:37 pm #

    Hey, one period will suffice!
    I hate how the Internet has reduced us to writing rambling run on sentences with improper punctuation.

  111. Corey February 8, 2010 at 5:44 pm #

    “There are mycophiles on the west coast wearing clothes laced with the spores of desirable mushroom species, everywhere they go.”
    Wow, this is one subculture I’ve never heard of. Mycophiles! Are their clothes are made of mushrooms, or do they just put mushroom spores in their clothes?
    I think getting a local wildlife guide would be useful in order to figure out which mushrooms you can eat and which ones you can’t.

  112. kedikat February 8, 2010 at 5:44 pm #

    Summer time.
    I think it is going to be very hot. There is a lot of simmering anger and frustration pent up in the fleeting warmth of home. When it gets warm enough for folks to get out and group up, there is going to be trouble.
    Tea party events in all their confused ideologies and prejudices are likely to erupt in violence just among themselves. With the random spectators, many on the edge with their own collapsing lives, ready pop and join in.
    Sporting events, political events, even social events are going to be filled with folks on edge. A comment, leads to a discussion, leads to argument….Riots abound. There will be looting, property destruction, for the shear joy of getting back at the purveyors and pushers of gluttony.
    All the little disagreements, little scuffles and symbolic pissing contests are going to be real, full blown, cascading, violence. Then the police start using the crowd control, the jails overfill. The real street wars begin. People versus the state in mindless directionless violence. Self perpetuating.
    fun times.

  113. Corey February 8, 2010 at 5:45 pm #

    Who is pissant?
    It’s difficult to follow your spat with pissant if we don’t know to whom you are referring.

  114. Corey February 8, 2010 at 5:47 pm #

    With all the guns at Tea Party events, I’ve often thought that they may very well have shooting incidents amongst themselves. Perhaps one of them will find one of the others insufficiently patriotic and there will be a showdown.
    If and when that happens, it will certainly be a rebuke to the notion that bringing guns to protests is a useful peaceful activity.

  115. asia February 8, 2010 at 6:00 pm #

    ‘Substitute “Wall Street” for “Tea Party”‘
    OK!..can i substitute MEXICAN NARCO TERRORISTS for CORNPONE [WHITE] NAZI?

  116. Edsel Finn February 8, 2010 at 6:01 pm #

    “they stand for…anything in the constitution that allows them to wriggle out of obligations to the public interest at the same time that they get to push other groups of people around.”
    Actually, its a disregard for some parts of the Constitution that has allowed a series of wars, bank bailouts, and the resulting corporatism which has allowed groups to be pushed around.

  117. trippticket February 8, 2010 at 6:03 pm #

    A lot of mushrooms are positively identified only by their spore prints – letting them sit on paper and drop spore in a characteristic color and pattern. A lot of those patterns are attractive.
    These folks tend to do it on their shirts and hats as well. ‘Shroomwear.

  118. asia February 8, 2010 at 6:08 pm #

    Where is Asia today
    Here…..Jared starts one book with the notion ‘ natives are smarter than whites’..also on TV he was a bore.

  119. welles February 8, 2010 at 6:21 pm #

    I watch with glee as the idiots ‘governing’ this country rush it headlong towards certain disaster, and as ‘democrats’ and ‘republicans’, both equally in trance-like state, propose ‘fixes’ to our flaming Hindenburg state as it crashes to the ground.
    O may it crash and burn!
    I laugh as ignorant, fatass state and federal ‘workers’ are AXED & their bloated pension dreams go up in smoke…welcome to the real world you pukes!
    We all need a mighty kick in the crotch.
    Americans, you all bought the LIES of the last 50 years…caveat emptor!

  120. The Mook February 8, 2010 at 6:42 pm #

    Yo Purple. I think you got me mixed up with Prince. You can speculate all you want, just take delivery that’s all I am asking. I don’t know how you equate this to fantasy. Store it in your country club pool and split the profits with your cronies.

  121. The Mook February 8, 2010 at 7:11 pm #

    Tripp, Remember; only kill as many as you intend to eat. Aw fuckit, kill a bunch and donate the meat to the SPCA.

  122. Agriburbia February 8, 2010 at 7:32 pm #

    mayberrymachivelli:”I will never forget the first time I passed through Vegas, and saw for the first time the invisible “curtain” of air-conditioning at the open-air entrances to the casinos. That’s right, the proprietors did not want something as obstructive as a door to separate the soon-to-be-gulled customers from the rigged games devised to relieve them of their wages. So, they created “curtains” of high-velocity air-conditioning at the threshold of the property. In effect, they were blasting massive quantities of expensively-cooled air straight into the blast-furnace heat of the desert.”
    Nice story.
    You ought to read Henry Miller’s scathing critique of the USA entitled THE AIR-CONDITIONED NIGHTMARE – http://www.amazon.com/Air-Conditioned-Nightmare-Henry-Miller/dp/0811201066
    Miller railed against many of the things which Kunstler spends his time writing about.

  123. Agriburbia February 8, 2010 at 7:38 pm #

    trouter:”Have you ever read the collection of essays by the writers known as “the Southern Agrarians?” The book is called I’LL TAKE MY STAND. … Anyway I would be interested in your take on what these writers had to say about the older culture of the south, before the cars and strip malls and such. Of course I don’t mean slavery! Granted the authors did not really address the race issue, and where they did it was with the bias of their time. Yet I found their arguments about a lost agricultural and spiritual heritage to be persuasive. Do you think any of that can be recovered?”
    I’LL TAKE MY STAND is a great book – even prophetic for its time. It predicted many modern ills with its anti-consumerism, anti-urbanism, anti-technologism, anti-sprawlism, and so on. It was pro-rural, pro-small town, pro-agricultural, pro-local, pro-tradition, etc.
    Basically the ’12 Southerners’ were writing against the increasing ‘Northernization’ of The South, i.e., urbanization, uncontrolled technology, everything being paved over, and so on.
    They wrote to warn and prevent exactly the things which Kunstler and others have been criticizing for the past few decades. They wanted to prevent The South from becoming another techno-industrial sprawling mess; obviously they mostly failed…but their vision lives on.
    It was written at the very beginning of the Great Depression (published in 1930).
    If any of y’all are interested in reading the introduction to that book, check it out @ http://xroads.virginia.edu/~MA01/white/anthology/agrarian.html

  124. Rick February 8, 2010 at 7:51 pm #

    Apparently, a lot of folks don’t understand Jim – at all, based on the comments here. Or I should say, a lot of folks don’t like to hear the truth – which is more to the point. Jim you rock! And btw, I have never been to Vegas, and have no desire to go there. Finally, I went to a Superbowl party last night. I hate football, I went to see some old friends, and to party, not to watch that stupid corporate spectacle. The people who where into the so called sport, acted like brainwashed fools, during the game, during the halftime, and especially during the corporate mind controlling commercials. What I saw last night was a sporting event(?), and room of forty adults, with no clue. And I said to myself, yep, we’re going down, which I already knew. But to see it in living color, is a different thing.

  125. Agriburbia February 8, 2010 at 7:52 pm #

    Hoping4bestpreparingforworst:”I live in NC, but am from NY. There are more northerners here than southerners. I’ve seen a little of what he’s talking about, but not that much. But, he’s right about the surburban sprawl mentality here. They don’t see the folly of not having invested in a real public transportation system. The only people you really see using public transportation here are poor people, and you have to drive to EVERYTHING! Very few walkable neighborhoods with the exception of downtown Raleigh,and maybe a few other places. Even something like a mild snowstorm puts the brakes on functionality here. They ran out of gas and food within hours of the snowstorm that hit us last week.”
    Hey genius, WHY do you think that you live in midst of a huge sprawling mess up there in Raleigh? It is because you Yankees MADE IT THAT WAY when y’all moved down here en masse within the past 10-20 years or so.
    Before masses of you Yanks started moving down here to The South in the last 1-2 decades, the suburban sprawl in which you currently live did not exist; you said so yourself: “There are more northerners here than southerners.” Bottom line: YOU YANKEES CREATED THAT SUBURBAN SPRAWL.
    Y’all are the sprawlers, not us. Y’all Yanks are all about sprawl. The stretch from Washington DC all the way up to Boston is one long continuous suburb, surely one of the largest on Earth.
    We Southerners prefer our small towns and rural areas, and we prefer that our homes be located on acreage and not crammed together like all of the homes which have been built here since the ‘Neo-Carpetbagger’ invasion started in the last 120-20 years.
    I used to live in such a small town in NC, but in the last 10-15 years masses of Yanks (like you) moved down here and turned my general area in to a huge sprawling crowded mess of a suburb. Again, look in the mirror and to all of the Yankee neighbors you live around if you want to see who is responsible for the anarchic sprawl you live amongst…we Southerners sure didn’t build it, you Yankee locusts did.
    The South doesn’t have the necessary infrastructure, jobs, tax revenues, or anything else like that to support the huge numbers of people (mostly Yanks and Hispanics) who moved here in the last few decades. Thus y’all have no one to blame except yourselves for the mess you have created – you’ve made your bed now lie in it.

  126. Pangolin February 8, 2010 at 7:54 pm #

    Who is pissant?
    It’s difficult to follow your spat with pissant if we don’t know to whom you are referring.

    The poster who identifies himself as “not mommy” known for his unique mixture of vulgarity and racism lightly salted with subject matter.
    Occasionally whoever moderates this board blocks him and he then signs on with a new handle. Several weeks back somebody suggested referring to the most recent incarnation as “pissant” for consistency.

  127. Agriburbia February 8, 2010 at 7:59 pm #

    Even the apologists of industrialism have been obliged to admit that some economic evils follow in the wake of the machines. These are such as overproduction, unemployment, and a growing inequality in the distribution of wealth. But the remedies proposed by the apologists are always homeopathic. They expect the evils to disappear when we have bigger and better machines, and more of them. Their remedial programs, therefore, look forward to more industrialism.

    Turning to consumption, as the grand end which justifies the evil of modern labor, we find that we have been deceived. We have more time in which to consume, and many more products to be consumed. But the tempo of our labors communicates itself to our satisfactions, and these also become brutal and hurried. The constitution of the natural man probably does not permit him to shorten his labor-time and enlarge his consuming-time indefinitely. He has to pay the penalty in satiety and aimlessness. The modern man has lost his sense of vocation.
    Religion can hardly expect to flourish in an industrial society. Religion is our submission to the general intention of a nature that is fairly inscrutable; it is the sense of our role as creatures within it. But nature industrialized, transformed into cities and artificial habitations, manufactured into commodities, is no longer nature but a highly simplified picture of nature. We receive the illusion of having power over nature, and lose the sense of nature as something mysterious and contingent. The God of nature under these conditions is merely an amiable expression, a superfluity, and the philosophical understanding ordinarily carried in the religious experience is not there for us to have.
    Nor do the arts have a proper life under industrialism, with the general decay of sensibility which attends it. Art depends, in general, like religion, on a right attitude to nature; and in particular on a free and disinterested observation of nature that occurs only in leisure. Neither the creation nor the understanding of works of art is possible in an industrial age except by some local and unlikely suspension of the industrial drive.
    The amenities of life also suffer under the curse of a strictly-business or industrial civilization. They consist in such practices as manners, conversation, hospitality, sympathy, family life, romantic love-in the social exchanges which reveal and develop sensibility in human affairs. If religion and the arts are founded on right relations of man- to-nature, these are founded on right relations of man-to- man.

    The tempo of the industrial life is fast, but that is not the worst of it; it is accelerating. The ideal is not merely some set form of industrialism, with so many stable industries, but industrial progress, or an incessant extension of industrialization. It never proposes a specific goal; it initiates the infinite series. We have not merely capitalized certain industries; we have capitalized the laboratories and inventors, and undertaken to employ all the labor-saving devices that come out of them. But a fresh labor-saving device introduced into an industry does not emancipate the laborers in that industry so much as it evicts them. Applied at the expense of agriculture, for example, the new processes have reduced the part of the population supporting itself upon the soil to a smaller and smaller fraction.

    All might yet be well, and stability and comfort might again obtain, but for this: partly because of industrial ambitions and partly because the repressed creative impulse must break out somewhere, there will be a stream of further labor-saving devices in all industries, and the cycle will have to be repeated over and over. The result is an increasing disadjustment and instability.
    It is an inevitable consequence of industrial progress that production greatly outruns the rate of natural consumption. To overcome the disparity, the producers, disguised as the pure idealists of progress, must coerce and wheedle the public into being loyal and steady consumers, in order to keep the machines running.

    Opposed to the industrial society is the agrarian, which does not stand in particular need of definition. An agrarian society is hardly one that has no use at all for industries, for professional vocations, for scholars and artists, and for the life of cities. Technically, perhaps, an agrarian society is one in which agriculture is the leading vocation, whether for wealth, for pleasure, or for prestige-a form of labor that is pursued with intelligence and leisure, and that becomes the model to which the other forms approach as well as they may. But an agrarian regime will be secured readily enough where the superfluous industries are not allowed to rise against it. The theory of agrarianism is that the culture of the soil is the best and most sensitive of vocations, and that therefore it should have the economic preference and enlist the maximum number of workers.”
    http://xroads.virginia.edu/~MA01/white/anthology/agrarian.html

  128. Agriburbia February 8, 2010 at 8:03 pm #

    In addition to the lovely excerpts above from I’LL TAKE MY STAND, how about another good piece of anti-technological writing?
    Behold ladies and gentlemen, Theodore Kaczynski’s “Industrial Society and Its Future” – http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Industrial_Society_and_Its_Future
    “The Industrial Revolution and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race. They have greatly increased the life-expectancy of those of us who live in “advanced” countries, but they have destabilized society, have made life unfulfilling, have subjected human beings to indignities, have led to widespread psychological suffering (in the Third World to physical suffering as well) and have inflicted severe damage on the natural world. The continued development of technology will worsen the situation. It will certainly subject human beings to greater indignities and inflict greater damage on the natural world, it will probably lead to greater social disruption and psychological suffering, and it may lead to increased physical suffering—even in “advanced” countries.
    2. The industrial-technological system may survive or it may break down. If it survives, it may eventually achieve a low level of physical and psychological suffering, but only after passing through a long and very painful period of adjustment and only at the cost of permanently reducing human beings and many other living organisms to engineered products and mere cogs in the social machine. Furthermore, if the system survives, the consequences will be inevitable: there is no way of reforming or modifying the system so as to prevent it from depriving people of dignity and autonomy.
    3. If the system breaks down the consequences will still be very painful. But the bigger the system grows the more disastrous the results of its breakdown will be, so if it is to break down it had best break down sooner rather than later.”

  129. David Goza February 8, 2010 at 8:04 pm #

    Jim, in honor of your article I’m submitting the following coinage as a new and potent meme.
    Weim-R-US
    Spread the meme, folks – and remember, you heard it here first.

  130. Agriburbia February 8, 2010 at 8:10 pm #

    “His constant concern has been the emergence of a “technological tyranny” over humanity.” – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Ellul
    THE TECHNOLOGICAL SOCIETY:
    “In our cities there is no more day or night or heat or cold. But there is overpopulation, thraldom to press and television, total absence of purpose. All men are constrained by means external to them to ends equally external. The further the technical mechanism develops which allows us to escape natural necessity, the more we are subjected to artificial technical necessities. . . The artificial necessity of technique is not less harsh and implacable for being much less obviously menacing than natural necessity. When the Communists claim that they place the development of the technical society in a historical framework that automatically leads to freedom through the medium of the dialectical process; when Humanists such as Bergson, or Catholics such as Mounier, assert that man must regain control over the technical “means” by an additional quantity of soul, all of them alike show both their ignorance of the technical phenomenon and an impenitent idealism that unfortunately bears no relation to truth or reality.
    Alongside these parades of mere verbalisms, there has been a real effort, on the part of the technicians themselves, to control the future of technical evolution. The principle here is the old one we have so often encountered: “A technical problem demands a technical solution.” At present, there are two kinds of new techniques which the technicians propose as solutions.”
    http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/~jsa3/hum355/readings/ellul.htm
    ALSO – http://people.usd.edu/~ssanto/ellul.html

  131. jonabark February 8, 2010 at 8:14 pm #

    I love 3/4ths of what Jim has to say, but one thing Jim avoids is the need to cut military spending and the whole imperialist military agenda. He justified the Iraq war. At least the Teabaggers are trying to organize though it is just a Republican cover group. Palin is an idiot but when she asks “how’s that changey hopey stuff going?'” it carries a sting.I don;t think it at all wise to lump all the libertarian types together. This dualist politics is just a steam valve while the real power brokers continue to exercise ownership. Obama is pimping for Goldman Sachs and the military industrial complex and that is where all the real money still left in this country is going. The Democrats are not about to hoist up an FDR. They are as shackled to Corporate bribery as the republicans..
    It’s probably either join up with the Greens and start a counter movement or sit around belching false fire while war , eco madness and corporate rape enslaves the planet.
    Right now the central issues are war, the lack of local productivity , usury and wall street gambling with taxpayer money. We need a constitutional convention and a serious 3rd party that grabs more attention than the teabaggers. Survivalism is not going to be a good bet against people who hunt mooses from helicopters and stash black market automatic weapons in the basement.

  132. Vlad Krandz February 8, 2010 at 8:16 pm #

    Skinny Lefties against Blue Collar Workingmen? No contest. Leftists are by and large weak cowards: they jump lone Fascists after our rallies break up. That’s the only physical battle they’ll ever win – when it’s 10 against 1.
    The ancient Celts used to burn a wicker man too – with convicts and prisoners attached.
    With your level of hatred, I bet you’d love to go up to the next level with human sacrafice of people you don’t like.
    A caveat: some of the Leftists intellectuals who went to fight in the Spanish Civil War were tough. The Abraham Lincoln Brigade was reknowned by the Fascists. Right wing foreigners, some of them intectuals and writers, went to fight for Franco. But the left wing Jewish Media never said a word about them.

  133. Laura Louzader February 8, 2010 at 8:24 pm #

    Interesting that one of the founders of the Tea Bag movement is not a southerner, but a Chicagoan who hails from Wheaton, a far western suburb that is steeped in Fundamentalist Christianity.
    Interesting also that this man, Rich Santelli, is formerly a member of the Chicago Board of Trade and went on, in the 90s, to work for CNBC, which was the major media cheerleader for the debt-driven hyper-growth in debt and asset-inflation in the past 10 years.
    Let’s not bash the South while sparing those of us Yanks who were the chief architects and cheerleaders for the fake growth of the past 10 years, or really, the past 30 years. These people are, like Santelli, wealthy, well-educated, and well-connected.
    At least the uneducated working classes of the South and elsewhere can plead ignorance of what they’re doing.
    So much cannot be said of the elite who created this unsustainable fabric, including the government policy-makers who drove the whole thing by means of policies designed to foster unsustainable growth and steer tens of millions of people into a way of life that we knew 50 years ago could not be sustained for much longer than that.

  134. Vlad Krandz February 8, 2010 at 8:27 pm #

    Mr Kunstler is like so many Liberals – a secret Elitist. It’s all Democracy and Egalitariansim when talking about minorities (their power base) But on the subject of poor or rural Whites, the Truth comes out.
    I’m not against Elitism per se, but let it be honest and open – the natural Aristocracy Jefferson talked about. The Aristocracy of merit. The challenge is how to maintain it since we don’t all start even. A wealthy man leaves his wealth to his son and it starts to build. Before long, you have an Aristocracy based on Wealth, a Plutocracy like we have now. Surely this is one of the worse forms of Elitism possible. But how could it have been otherwise? One of the strongest human desires is to aid one’s children and give them every advantage. The Socialist want to end all inheritance; they are unnatural here as they are in every area. Clearly an unacceptable intrusion into people’s private business.

  135. Ricardo February 8, 2010 at 8:32 pm #

    Clustermuck, your pandemic hatred of Christianity is disgusting.
    America has done the unthinkable and it deserves to pay a handsome price. George Bush was a disaster as a President, I wholeheartedly agree (and this from a Republican). I guess he thought like a CIA operative and this really did not equip him for political office. The Republican Party as failed its constituents.
    But, to throw out the baby with the bathwater and vote in Obama, Americans had to be completely out of their minds. That idiot doesn’t know the differences betweeen a Marine Corpsman and a Marine “corpseman”. We are really in trouble when both sides of the isle are out of their freakin’ gords.
    Of course, I’ll I have to do is drive anywhere in my homestate of California and observe the freak show. Its Halloween everyday in California. How long can a State or a Country for the matter last if the people are nothing but freaks? (If I am one of them, may I be struck down with lightning.)
    I blame our problems on Congress. They are the Evil Empire, not the Soviets or the Iranians or ever the North Koreans or Chineses. It is Congress who has thrown all of our asses in a heap.

  136. Vlad Krandz February 8, 2010 at 8:34 pm #

    The Manifesto makes alot of good sense. I was particularly impressed by his fundamentally existential stance about technology. Even more than its ruining the environment and its being unsustainable, he said that technology weighed down the human spirit. The very hugeness of the interlocking system reduced the individual to just being a cog in the machine. And can such Cog Men be expected to act with integrity and foresight after 40 hours of depersonalization?
    Of course, the Unabomber himself was an incredibly distorted, evil individual. But his mind is of the utmost clarity.

  137. Agriburbia February 8, 2010 at 8:40 pm #

    VK:”wealthy man leaves his wealth to his son and it starts to build. Before long, you have an Aristocracy based on Wealth, a Plutocracy like we have now. Surely this is one of the worse forms of Elitism possible.”
    One of the key lessons of history is that ALL aristocracies and ruling-classes will grow decadent in time and decline – this is what is what we are currently living through; the current ‘aristocracy’ or ruling class has grown mostly decadent and they are in decline, and now we are in this strange middling period where no one is really in charge because no one group or new elite has arisen to replace the old ones.

  138. Vlad Krandz February 8, 2010 at 8:40 pm #

    I think his books were pretty good but yeah, he’s full of the usual Jewish bullshit when it comes to Whites. In one place he’s on record saying that Race doesn’t exist. Then he implies other non races are smarter than Whites. He has also come out in favor of Genetic testing in order to see who are the real Jews and who are just are faking it. So, Race doesn’t exist, but the Jews do. Such effortless, consumate hypocrisy.

  139. newtdog February 8, 2010 at 9:16 pm #

    I really do not like your thoughts on Southern folk. I think the following should be the TEA PARTY theme song!!!!!!Ben in Tennessee
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=378198368701279760#

  140. lerel February 8, 2010 at 9:40 pm #

    Hey Jim, it’s Lee in Texas, the psychotherapy person.
    Quite a bit of synchronicity today on your post. Today in my office I pulled down a book titled The Nazi Seizure of Power, an account of the way the last days of the Weimar Republic played out in one town of 10,000 in Germany. It was assigned to me back in the 70’s in a history course.
    A friend came into my office and saw me flipping through it, asked about it, and I told him that I thought what’s going on these days is looking more and more like Weimar.
    And then I come home tonight and find your excellent post on the topic.
    Thanks, Jim, take it easy, Lee…………

  141. ozone February 8, 2010 at 9:40 pm #

    Laura,
    I certainly agree that there’s plenty of ass-kicking and name-taking to go ’round everywhere! ;o)
    This part though?:
    “At least the uneducated working classes of the South and elsewhere can plead ignorance of what they’re doing.”
    Mmmm, nope; not if they have a library nearby. The willfully ignorant are especially complicit in their own destruction. Pass the Cheez doodles; the game’s about to start! Got beer?

  142. Larry from Lino Lakes February 8, 2010 at 9:44 pm #

    These yahoos you sneer at would also be the first ones to offer to tow your Prius out of the ditch with their pickups. This whole ‘keep the government’s hands off my Medicaid’ (I think you mean Medicare) meme is such a straw man. Stop talking about that guy and I’ll stop remembering the woman that thought Obama was gonna pay her mortgage. Take that out of your little rant and what exactly are you complaining about? These Tea Party types just want to be left alone. Thousands of years of human slavery and now we’re free and Kunstler wants us to be slaves again because he disapproves of our choice of music or because we want to have a little fun before we kick the bucket. You’re no David Mamet.

  143. Pangolin February 8, 2010 at 10:11 pm #

    You wander off for a few minutes and Vlad goes and admits he’s a) a fascist and b) a big fan of the Unabomber. He also seems to attend some kind of jack-boot rally where he’s afraid the leftist will catch him on his way home. There’s a real catch; if you happen to be an FBI agent.
    First rule of the keyboard commando is never admit your participation in klan or white nazi rallies. It’s why they invented computer programs like Omnivore. To catch you Tim McVeigh types before you bomb another daycare.

  144. YankeeRob February 8, 2010 at 10:36 pm #

    I think Jim woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning and wrote a misguided characterization of millions of his countrymen.
    Calling someone a “Nazi” in modern America is a pretty serious charge. Think about it. This is a country that learns it’s history from movies. What does it mean, to call someone a “Nazi?”
    Well, the “Holocaust movie” is of course Schindler’s List. It was shot in black and white, so that Americans would think they were watching “actual footage of the Holocaust.” I hope the Wiesenthal Center locates that monster Ralph Fiennes, who not only has escaped justice for the past 75 years, but also seems to possess a secret Nazi formula against aging. The man looks great for 115 years old!
    In all seriousness, calling someone a “Nazi” in modern America is equivalent to calling them a “child murderer.” I really don’t think those Tea Party people have a higher percentage of psychopaths than the general population. Calling them the equivalent of child murderers is terribly unfair, to say the least. Perhaps you could apologize to them? I, for one, would forgive you your artistic temperamental fit. Tuesday, Jim wakes up and he’s again a serious intellectual and realized his CF nation post of 2/8/2010 was a bit over the top. Happens to the best of us. Bygones!
    Anyway, I want to make a pledge to Jim, and I hope others will join me.
    Jim, if the Nazis ever come after you, cornpone or otherwise, I swear on my honor that I will hide you at my house at the risk of myself and even my family, and I mean that. Nobody should be murdered or even assaulted for their religion or ethnicity.
    Who’s with me? Who else would shelter Jim from Nazis? I think there’s a whole country full of us. Clusterfuck Nation may have big problems, but we’re not a bunch of genocidal maniacs as far as I can tell.

  145. mean dovey cooledge February 8, 2010 at 10:36 pm #

    thank you for posting that link. in listing the effects of over industrialization on the critical areas of authentic human experience, an outline for a way of being emerges. that’s where i am going.

  146. Headless February 8, 2010 at 10:43 pm #

    Palin as President is the equivalent of waking up one day and finding that banjo boy from Deliverance is your father. If Palin every becomes President I will kill myself.

  147. AMR February 8, 2010 at 11:10 pm #

    Harry Reid has some gall to give Barack Obama flak for dissing Las Vegas. Give me a fucking break! Has any other major city besides Phoenix has benefitted from such obscene federal largesse per capita in keeping itself watered, air-conditioned and lit? Without Hoover Dam and all the associated pipes and wires, Las Vegas would be Nevada’s Barstow. Also, given the sheer corrosive effect that Las Vegas has had on other parts of the country whose residents respond to its siren call, if the worst thing to befall it is an occasional tangentially negative remark from the president, the city has gotten off scot free.
    The metaphor that Obama used is well-established for a good reason: it is extremely apt. Decades ago Las Vegas eclipsed Reno as a gambling center and became synonymous with American gambling, even though there were plenty of other places to gamble in Nevada. Atlantic City never caught up with Vegas, either (incidentally, AC’s population is pretty close to Barstow’s, and its demography is about as scummy). Basically, Vegas is a byword for American gambling. Therefore, for anyone who has a shred of common sense, it is also an object lesson of how not to waste one’s life and money–as in, don’t pawn the family jewels for strippers and blackjack, son. No one with a lick of sense believes that Las Vegas’ economy is based on anything wholesome or edifying, and the city’s advertising aimed at tourists is candid about this.
    One of the sadder aspects of this whole mess is that Las Vegas used to be something of a national sideshow. Other states were happy to send their residents to Nevada or Atlantic City to get their legal gambling fix, so that they could return and lead relatively normative lives free of pawn shops and similar rot. Now, every state but Utah has at least one government lottery, and most states are tripping over one another trying to lure casinos, whether of the ill-advised Indian variety or otherwise. The county where I currently live, Humboldt County, CA, has no fewer than three heavily advertised casinos for a population of well under 200,000.
    If the states are laboratories of innovation, the virus that is Las Vegas has escaped the facility. It will be to our immense benefit if we kill it.

  148. YankeeRob February 8, 2010 at 11:11 pm #

    Paranoia is a self fulfilling prophecy.
    I know high school kids who think being a genocidal maniac is cool because they saw it on Schindler’s List. Holocaust studies makes people anti-semitic where they would have never thought about Jews one way or the other. Sure, some people become philosemitic fanatics, others become the opposite. Neither is healthy.
    Here’s a movie made by an Israeli Jew that depicts Israeli children being taught that “the whole world hates them and wants them dead.”
    http://www.archive.org/details/Hashmatsa
    That’s state sponsored child abuse, in my opinion.
    I don’t meet too many Jews in my life, but if I do, and I hear anything about “Nazis” or “Holocaust” I will assure him or her or them that they always have a place in my attic or basement. I’ll even share my last pulled-pork sandwich with them.

  149. Laura Louzader February 8, 2010 at 11:37 pm #

    To AMR and James Howard Kunstler,
    You won’t kill the Las Vegas virus by means of Prohibition. Actually, the best way to kill it is to let it run its course, which is happening now. The proliferation of casinos has totally de-glamorized gambling, and revenues are starting to trend down as the population realizes that no one makes money at those places, and that most of the people who habituate these places are the kind of people you move out of the neighborhood to get away from.
    Prohibition did not work with liquor, does not work with drugs, prostitution, or excessive breeding, and will not work with gambling any better than it did previously.
    All that we would accomplish by once more prohibiting gambling is to enrich the Mob, which got its ass kicked when most states legalized casino gambling. Now, please, lets kill the cash cow of the Gangster Disciples and Latin Kings and M-13 and Crips and bloods, and legalize street drugs. We’re not stopping anyone who really wants to use these drugs, we’re only enriching some of the most vicious and violent criminal cartels ever to exist.
    All our prohibitions of personal vices have accomplished is to corrupt our law enforcement and local governments, and generate widespread disrespect for all laws. The result of making unenforceable laws is an utterly lawless society.
    If we want to regain the civility we’ve lost and retain any vestige of civilization in the years ahead, we are going to have to cultivate the utmost respect for individual rights. That means that no matter how unpleasant or pernicious some of us consider some behaviors to be, we must recognize a person’s right to engage in them, whether it’s living on a diet of pork fat and french fries, or dropping your paycheck into the slot machines at Harrah’s.

  150. bproman February 8, 2010 at 11:55 pm #

    At the tone please press one, thank you, you call is being recorded for monitoring purposes, please press two if you wish to proceed, thank you, please wait as one of our representatives will be right with you, if you wish to continue holding please press four, thank you for your patience, your call will be answered in the order that it was received, thank you for holding, please press five, please stand by and one of our customer service reps will be right with you, please press six, hello how may I help you and thank you for holding, I’m sorry all are lines are busy, please call again.

  151. Denny February 8, 2010 at 11:55 pm #

    I am a Canadian, but also a former U.S. resident. I saw the great division in the U.S. during the Vietnam war, but thought that was over.
    It all started up again under Bush II. I hoped Americans could unite under Obama.
    It seems to me, as a Canadian looking in, that the U.S. has become a fragmented country, not even so much the old geographic split between the north and the south, but sociologically. Race, income, political leanings and religion have become, for far too many, the first loyalties, ahead of the country.
    I even wonder, when the nation’s leaders use words like sacrifice, if anybody even believes them, Or if the general public is even willing to really undergo a sacrifice. It seems those in the middle and top end are not willing.
    And, its strange in a way, that so many look up to Sarah Palin. What is her loyalty? Sure, she would profess to be an American, even an uber-American, unlike Obama. But you can see that she really enjoys leading people into division and throwing stones, almost for the sheer fun of it.

  152. lpat February 9, 2010 at 12:15 am #

    “It probably hasn’t occurred to many of us that the US doesn’t have honest work for a fat portion of the people that need a paycheck to pay rent and groceries. A minority gets paid hugely for doing fuck-all and the rest have to scrabble over the leavings. It does not help one bit that the wealthy minority have enough spare cash to purchase storefronts, homes, farmland and apartment buildings that they will never see and leave them idle if they don’t get whatever arbitrary rent they demand.
    “Next time you walk past an empty storefront you just think about how efficient capitalism is by leaving assets idle. Somebody could maybe make a living out of there. Too bad some rich bastard would prefer your neighbors starve while he waits for his ideal rent. I may be a socialist but I don’t want to take from you. You don’t have shit. I want to take from the guy in Saudi Arabia that owns three-hundred rental houses in rural Oregon. He’s a goddamn parasite.”
    Close, very close. It isn’t the guy in SA who’s stuck with tons, tons, tons and tons of worthless cash; it’s your doctor who’s keeping the stores in your neighborhood closed because he can’t get a 15% return.
    “Wake up ******* or we’re all through!”

  153. Pangolin February 9, 2010 at 12:18 am #

    Sure american people believe in sacrifice as long as follows the rules.
    It must be a human sacrifice.
    The sacrifice must start out a different skin shade than you.
    You’re expected to bring your own barbecue sauce and a side dish to share.
    Bring your own beer.
    If you look at the american workplace it immediately becomes clear that each individual is encouraged to exploit and degrade every other around him in order to get ahead. You couldn’t find compassion in the US with the Hubble space telescope.

  154. Pangolin February 9, 2010 at 12:27 am #

    Close, very close. It isn’t the guy in SA who’s stuck with tons, tons, tons and tons of worthless cash; it’s your doctor who’s keeping the stores in your neighborhood closed because he can’t get a 15% return.
    “Wake up ******* or we’re all through!”

    Look. I KNOW that it’s mostly Doctor’s and Lawyers and other petty slumlords that leave buildings empty and kick the homeless. I used to work in property management. But…..
    Americans all think they are going to win the lotto and relax in luxury collecting rents. They are much happier if you tell them a fiction than reality; like small children.

  155. Godozo February 9, 2010 at 12:42 am #

    Just so you know, I believe that the unemployment figures were finally disconnected from any relationship with the economy over Xmas of 2009. Inflation was disconnected with Clinton/Greenspan so as to make Social Security worthless for me and my generation (Gen X, if you must know).
    But…here’s a report on how things have been going. In Indianapolis they’re building a bunch of mid-level to luxurious motels for Stupor Bowl XLVI in 2012 (one reason to embrace the apocalypse, IMHO); meanwhile the motel situation at the westside intersection of I-74 and I-465 (with US 136 included in the bargain) has taken a shocking nosedive. The Motel 6 went for 29.95/day single, 34.95/day for two (before AARP); the Red Roof was 34.95/day for single and the Clarion had an advertisement for a Winter Special of 49.95/day for single. There was another hotel that had a sign advertising 31.95, but it was closed, the dollar inn (no, you don’t want to stay there) had a couple of billboards advertising 25.95/day stays. Five motels struggling for people to stay in their rooms!
    One wonders whether they would stick people in what WAS the 31.95/day motel, but…you know how things are. It’s not need for profit, it’s racism and hatred of fellow man. They would make a killing from government-insured profits for those motels, yet they prefer them empty, windows busted and doors left open for the beds to rot.

  156. BP February 9, 2010 at 1:11 am #

    James, as I posted in my own blog about Granny losing the farm (and me losing my house in the burbs), I was thinking about old photos my Mom recently showed me of a family trip to Opryland when I was a boy. I try to think positive but now I wonder if my clan ever was really middle class. I think I might have permanent chigger bites. Or as an Arkansas preacher once told me, “down here we call them chiggroes.” Anyway, I guess in the back of my mind I saw us sliding back into those poor & primitive conditions but I fell short of your colorful description. Thanks for the new anxieties!

  157. wagelaborer February 9, 2010 at 1:59 am #

    yeah, newt, I don’t think so. Nice song, but what happens when the gas is too expensive for the four-wheeler and you have to haul a deer out of the woods with your own fat assed effort? What happens when ammunition costs more than Bubba can afford?
    You know how to skin a buck? Uh huh. That’s why they have deer processing centers.
    Yeah, rednecks are safe from random violence. Not. What happens when the whole clan gets together, say for the Super Bowl, drinking, and grandma’s new boyfriend pisses off her second son from her third husband? Yeah, not pretty.
    You can plow a field all day? Not without fossil fuels you can’t.
    And how are you going to make your meth when there’s no more ammonia tanks in the fields?
    Times are gonna get tough for the country boys too.

  158. Trillian2012 February 9, 2010 at 1:59 am #

    Dumb dumb dumb…If you want to know the real answers to your questions about the economy, go to thecomingdepression.blogspot.com ..Here you will find some pretty good info about the masters of the universe and the secret controllers of the fake economy. I challenge anyone with a brain to post here, but be parpared to have your stupid paradigms challenged!!! Tea baggers untie!

  159. Mr. Purple February 9, 2010 at 2:03 am #

    “I don’t know how you equate this to fantasy.”
    I was speaking of your recommendation to ban speculation on oil. The fantasy element would be thinking that such a ban would work any better than Prohibition worked on alcohol consumption. At most, you would drive it off the open market in the country where you enacted the ban.

  160. Mr. Purple February 9, 2010 at 2:11 am #

    “I blame our problems on Congress. They are the Evil Empire”
    And if you pay income taxes, you support them. Which makes you a part of the Evil Empire. Sucks, doesn’t it?

  161. Mr. Purple February 9, 2010 at 2:25 am #

    “First rule of the keyboard commando is never admit your participation in klan or white nazi rallies. It’s why they invented computer programs like Omnivore. To catch you Tim McVeigh types before you bomb another daycare.”
    It’s a bit distressing to see how easily the government has convinced people that it is technologically omniscient. Even if the data is there, the bureaucracy excels at ignoring it until after the event.

  162. Eleuthero February 9, 2010 at 2:30 am #

    Jim,
    As much as I enjoy your screeds as
    a form of entertainment, I’m afraid
    I agree with Paskit i.e., they are
    short of ANALYSIS when compared with
    Joe Bageant.
    Joe Bageant’s total dissection of the
    State of the Union speech by Obama is
    a work of art. I mean, every single
    sentence is dissected for it’s hypocrisies,
    its subtexts, etc..
    I actually LOVE your invective, esp.
    about Las Fucking Vegas and the feckless
    Harry Reid. However, real discourse must
    involve the discussion of particulars and
    not just “broad brush” critique.
    Part of that “good analysis” of which
    I speak is being more charitable to the
    positive aspects of certain movements
    instead of damning them all to hell
    whole and undissected. While I agree
    that the Tea Party folks are often
    just spoilt White Yokels who want
    both Socialism and Libertarianism at
    the same time, many of them are just
    sensible folks who don’t want endless
    government profligacy!!
    Yes, your broad brush makes for very
    entertaining script but, eventually,
    it starts to rag on people who just
    plain don’t deserve it. It also
    lumps minor sins like gambling in
    with far worse ones like stealing,
    lying, etc.. I’d bet, Jim, that
    you’ve bet on a horse or played
    poker at someone’s house some time
    in your life.
    Part of the deterioration of America
    is precisely the end of discourse and
    the lowering of dialogue to partisan
    shouting. Discourse gets killed flat
    dead when you rhetorically destroy
    anyone who’s played craps for a couple
    hours or who believes in the sensible
    part of a movement which may contain
    INsensible parts.
    Joe Bageant’s reasoning trumps your
    chutzpah and flash. Sorry.
    Eleuthero

  163. abbeysbooks February 9, 2010 at 2:45 am #

    You are ready to read Foucault now.

  164. cowswithguns February 9, 2010 at 2:48 am #

    I agree with you, but I can understand why hotel owners wouldn’t be anxious to rent their hotels out to the poor. I lived next to a government-subsidized hotel for a time, and, well, the “guests” weren’t exactly the kind of people you’d want as neighbors. I got used to the smell of urine in the morning, that’s for sure. Nonetheless, did I want these people to be homeless and freezing to death? No.
    Though, to be fair, as the economy goes to shit, it won’t just be the derelicts who need places to stay, so your idea has merit.
    The Super Bowl is bullshit by the way:






  165. abbeysbooks February 9, 2010 at 2:49 am #

    Part of the deterioration of America
    is precisely the end of discourse and
    the lowering of dialogue to partisan
    shouting. Discourse gets killed flat
    dead when you rhetorically destroy
    anyone who’s played craps for a couple
    hours or who believes in the sensible
    part of a movement which may contain
    INsensible parts.

    No, the reason is the Dominating Discourse that is going unchallenged.
    For example: Global Warming is the accepted Dominating Discourse for our radical climate change. Then when we get horrific winters and snow it makes people able to deny climate change and make a case for its manufacture in the minds of liberals.

  166. Eleuthero February 9, 2010 at 7:22 am #

    I agree with you but I don’t think your
    “Dominating Discourse” idea is too much
    different than my idea of “partisan
    shouting”.
    I don’t believe that man is responsible
    for global warming because all of the
    planets are up a couple of degrees due
    to increased solar activity.
    However, I have to say that BOTH sides
    of the warming debate are just partisan
    shouters. The man-created warming folks
    are good at ignoring data such as the
    heating of the outer planets. But the
    anti-man-created warming folks, like
    Hannity, Levin, and Limbaugh … simply
    label the other side as “environmental
    wackos”.
    In other words, your conservative friends
    are actually engaging in LESS discourse
    than their almost equally doctrinaire
    liberal opposites.
    Sorry, Abbeysbooks, but I just can’t go
    along with the idea that EITHER side of
    most critical debates are occuping the
    high ground.
    I mean … the Republicans on the Supreme
    Court just said that a corporation is a
    person. How fucking stupid is that? It
    ignores the very HISTORY of corporations
    which were allowed to exist as PUBLIC
    TRUSTS. Are they now acting as PUBLIC
    trusts? Only if you think that sociopathic
    greed and anti-competitive oligarchies are
    “capitalism” as our Founders envisioned it.
    My take is that most liberals are phony
    liberals and most conservatives are phony
    conservatives. Most “liberals” are “noble
    savage worshippers” where you’re BETTER
    than average if you’re gay, a “person of
    color”. a turbo-slut, or believe in New
    Age tripe. Most “conservatives” are
    overweight mid-Western and Southern
    ninnies who want Socialism (Medicare)
    AND small government and have the IQ
    of a freaking pea.
    On the one side you have tons of serious
    social and psychological pathology. On
    the other side you have a kind of satellite
    dish, 16 hours of TV a day dead-ass-edness.
    Those are your “conservatives”.
    Perverts or anti-intellectual dead asses.
    Those are your “liberals” and “conservatives”.
    I opt out. I’d rather be alone than be in
    bad company just for a tepid feeling of
    “belonging”.
    Eleuthero

  167. Eleuthero February 9, 2010 at 7:23 am #

    I agree with you but I don’t think your
    “Dominating Discourse” idea is too much
    different than my idea of “partisan
    shouting”.
    I don’t believe that man is responsible
    for global warming because all of the
    planets are up a couple of degrees due
    to increased solar activity.
    However, I have to say that BOTH sides
    of the warming debate are just partisan
    shouters. The man-created warming folks
    are good at ignoring data such as the
    heating of the outer planets. But the
    anti-man-created warming folks, like
    Hannity, Levin, and Limbaugh … simply
    label the other side as “environmental
    wackos”.
    In other words, your conservative friends
    are actually engaging in LESS discourse
    than their almost equally doctrinaire
    liberal opposites.
    Sorry, Abbeysbooks, but I just can’t go
    along with the idea that EITHER side of
    most critical debates are occuping the
    high ground.
    I mean … the Republicans on the Supreme
    Court just said that a corporation is a
    person. How fucking stupid is that? It
    ignores the very HISTORY of corporations
    which were allowed to exist as PUBLIC
    TRUSTS. Are they now acting as PUBLIC
    trusts? Only if you think that sociopathic
    greed and anti-competitive oligarchies are
    “capitalism” as our Founders envisioned it.
    My take is that most liberals are phony
    liberals and most conservatives are phony
    conservatives. Most “liberals” are “noble
    savage worshippers” where you’re BETTER
    than average if you’re gay, a “person of
    color”. a turbo-slut, or believe in New
    Age tripe. Most “conservatives” are
    overweight mid-Western and Southern
    ninnies who want Socialism (Medicare)
    AND small government and have the IQ
    of a freaking pea.
    On the one side you have tons of serious
    social and psychological pathology. On
    the other side you have a kind of satellite
    dish, 16 hours of TV a day dead-ass-edness.
    Those are your “conservatives”.
    Perverts or anti-intellectual dead asses.
    Those are your “liberals” and “conservatives”.
    I opt out. I’d rather be alone than be in
    bad company just for a tepid feeling of
    “belonging”.
    Eleuthero

  168. Jimini February 9, 2010 at 7:42 am #

    Entertaining post JHK, as always.
    I had a slightly different take on a few points, however.
    The Tea Party bunch is quite a study. Rather than seeing them as the new Nazi party however, I see them as the parody of the real thing. The ridiculous version we expect to see, so that we’ll continue to be distracted from the actions of the real thing, which is already – and has been for some time – comfortably ensconced in the seats of power. The Tea Party will no doubt be a source of major drama in the years ahead, but absent their inclusion in the overriding corporate plan (as a puppet regime during a transitional period perhaps?), I can’t see them wielding any real power. They simply wouldn’t know what to do with it if they had it, and that’s ONE thing that corporate America definitely will NOT stand for.
    Likewise gambling. Yeah it’s totally ridiculous and a moral perversion by those who also call themselves religious, but it’s a carbon copy of what goes on on Wall Street everyday, and is therefore about as emblematic of the “American Dream” as anything could be. And just like Wall Street, the major players win every time, since they know and set the odds in advance, while the little guy wins just often enough to foster the illusion that the game’s not rigged, and keep him coming back for more.
    All the rest of the “corn-pone” characteristics are mere cultural affectations, which, at this point, is probably all most of those people have left. Having been led this far down the road to their bloody slaughter, I’m inclined to give them a break. Yeah, the American masses of the past several generations have really taken their eye off the ball and are about to get their just desserts (no Moon Pies either!) very soon, but really now, who could have expected (or would have been taken seriously if they had) such a massive conspiracy to fuck us in our collective ass, and that it would be so overwhelmingly successful?

  169. lancemfoster February 9, 2010 at 7:51 am #

    Note that the Tea Party folks started as a bunch of people from various political backgrounds, from Libertarians and people who never vote to Republicans and neocons and reactionary pundits disenchanted with their “soft” leadership.
    Something has happened in the meantime.
    Seeing that the Republican party has lost lots of credibility with their base, hardcore neocon leadership have jumped ship to assume Tea Party leadership, at both state and national levels. The Tea Party has become a lifeboat of the same unhappy folks disenchanted with things as they are, but the same old suspects from the Republican extremists have hopped in to become captains and tell people which way to row. They have hijacked a movement of the dissatisfied and fearful, originally cheerled and shaped by Fox broadcasting.
    And now those same Tea Party folks, instead of just forming a new third party (of the same old neocon ideologues) called the Tea Party, looked around and are in the process of consolidating their gains in a more credible lifeboat known as the Libertarian Party. Thus Ron Paul is facing challenges from neoconRepubTea Party folks to take Libertarian leadership.
    Original Libertarianism despised both the Democratic and Republican establishments, which is why it saw itself as an alternative party. Now you watch. Ron Paul will either be shunted aside for someone like Palin, or he will have to morph like McCain did to be Republican presidential candidate, his arm-twisted by the neocon lifeboats into their new prom king.
    And thus old neocon wine in a new Libertarian bottle. After all, the U.S. can only have two parties in contention at once, whether it is Whig v. Democrat, Republican v. Democrat, or Libertarian v. Democrat.
    Look up the meaning of “moiety” in anthropology.

  170. Poet February 9, 2010 at 7:55 am #

    “The contraction of the sunbelt economy” as well as the continuing collapse of California are due to the same problem: the diminishing federal dollars being pumped into supporting their absurd lifestyles (which the rest of the nation tries as hard as it can to emulate without the success of these places because they lack the federal investment.
    This is also why the reactionary politics so popular in both places is such a joke.
    In California it’s prop 13 which enables a reactionary political minority to dominate the budget process as long as they can muster one more vote than the super majority required for all budget approvals. These forlks conveniently forget the ,assive improvements in ifrastructure and manufacturing associated with WWII that enabled their place to become so pros;perous.
    In the Dixie part of the Sunbelt, it’s the former segregationist and racist Democrats who have magically transformed themselves into Republicans and by swallowing the Konservative Kool Ade have forgotten that they too benefited from being the domestic third world labor pool for US manufacturers to shift their production to before GATT and NAFTA enabled them to export all of their productive work to the third and fourth world.
    So now they are all mad and are looking for someone at which to point their middle finger instead of looking in the mirror at their unrealistic expectations. Weimar indeed! Now all we need now is our very own Hitler. Tancredo, Huckabee, Silly Sarah Palin, or maybe Mormon Mitt Romney? I’m just sayin.

  171. deacon-john February 9, 2010 at 9:13 am #

    Here’s a nice video on what life may be like for us Clusterfuckers
    http://www.hulu.com/watch/122505/cinelan-3-minute-stories-belarus-on-the-farm
    Buy your 10 acres in the woods now and start building
    Deacon John

  172. upstatebob February 9, 2010 at 9:23 am #

    Agriburbia makes a point that I had not considered, that much
    of the southern suburban sprawl is the result of northerners
    moving in. -Atlanta is a prime example.

  173. paskit February 9, 2010 at 9:48 am #

    Tried Foucault, didn’t like him. He struck me as a high official in the French Academy of “radicalism”. I think I’m pre-pomo, i.e. still historical-materialist.

  174. upstater February 9, 2010 at 10:23 am #

    JHK said “I’d like to see him start by using the just-proposed national forum on health care reform as a rope-a-dope moment to expose opponents to reform as the bought-and-sold errand boys they are.”
    The first dope to rope is the O-man himself!
    The first thing he did was take single payer off the table and ignore its advocated. Then he cut the deal with Pharma. Next, the public option came off the table. This was followed by disallowing buy-in to Medicare for 55+. Finally they wanted to tighten drug importation from Canada.
    Obama is bought-and-paid for. He is a complete big business hack, with only a dime’s bit of difference between him and the republicrats.
    Otherwise great column about the tea partiers.

  175. ashizashiz February 9, 2010 at 10:25 am #

    GREAT POST JIM! American neo-fascist pseudo-conservative populism is quite the spectacle.

  176. dale February 9, 2010 at 10:54 am #

    “Palin as President is the equivalent of waking up one day and finding that banjo boy from Deliverance is your father.”
    =================================
    I like that so much I’m going to steal it! But why bother killing yourself, if she were elected it would mean we crossed over into the realm of complete farce. Just sit back and watch the fun!

  177. James Spignardo February 9, 2010 at 10:59 am #

    What’s interesting to me is how the Tea Party types are very much for smaller government and government that stays out of business. But what they are NOT in favor of is smaller business! BIG business is the root cause of political corruption and malfeceance. You cannot have Massive Multi-National Corporations without government scaling to match its power and authority. I think what Jim is getting at is that scale is precisely the problem, on both accounts, government and business. You can’t just shrink one and hope the other behaves itself.

  178. mean dovey cooledge February 9, 2010 at 11:01 am #

    ow ow ow the cuts to white american southerners continues on unabated! more severe than a panty line cutting through a fat wal-mart shopper in stretch polyester…have i got that right? the portrait of the south as seen by our superiors in here? i could use a handful of scarlett’s red clay right about now.
    can we all agree that bureaucracies, centralization and globalization are anti-individual? what does it matter if it is dressed in an obama or palin suit? either way, they remain our mortal enemies.
    trippticket said it well:
    I’m here to talk about opting out. I’m not in the complaining business.

  179. Cash February 9, 2010 at 11:12 am #

    “OK!..can i substitute MEXICAN NARCO TERRORISTS for CORNPONE [WHITE] NAZI?”
    Not sure I see the parallel, don’t see the cornpones as nazis. The cornpone has a sense that the elites in the US (and most of the western world) are working contrary to average joe/cornpone interests, contrary to the national interest, senses general economic and social decline and is pissed.
    I’ve worked with privileged people but never identified with them. But I think I have a good sense of what they’re about. The cornpone tends to not be well educated, is incoherent in his views but I would say the cornpone has a pretty good take on our elites.

  180. Jim from Watkins Glen February 9, 2010 at 11:12 am #

    This excellent post highlights shallowness. Mr. Kunstler is gifted at pointing out how our cultural icons represent larger problems. Gambling is a good one. Atlantic City is a thin façade of glittering wealth on the beach. Go two blocks west and you’re in the slums. Teabag rallies are colorful and boisterous and make great news, but there’s no substantive argument of purpose. We spend so much on the fantasy economy that we can no longer tell the carnival from the actual work we have to do. Our slide toward a Weimar-like republic started in earnest a decade ago when the executive branch started breaking constitutional law often and with impunity. We can blame whomever we want but in the end it’s we who fall into our own traps.

  181. John Minehan February 9, 2010 at 11:54 am #

    “Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself.” —Milton Friedman

  182. mickrussom February 9, 2010 at 12:28 pm #

    Sure, you are writing a treatise that has a decent use of English and some interwoven humor.
    But you are pompous, your analysis is superficial and incorrect and you are wrong.
    This issue has percolated up with Ross Perot several times before. One might take a look at perotcharts.com before spouting drivel like the above. Yet, as Perot and folks like Ron Paul were laughed at, now not so much. You see, they basically predicted the future with shocking accuracy. The deficits, the spending beyond income even during prosperity, the perpetual wars and the unfunded social entitlement programs that have no hope of working even during good economic times is eclipsing American power.
    Some are trying to erect a socialist state like that of say, Sweden. Yet, Sweden is a homogeneous culture, small population ~9 million, good natural borders and before rampant taxation moved a number of prolific businesses away, this country of 9 million made cars, cell phones, jet aircraft, heavy industry equipment, gave rise to Ikea, etc.
    The problem is simple. The US is 300+ million with a leaky border. Socialism will break this union faster than can be imagined. One might argue this is the point and a Cloward-Piven strategy, but its probably just ignorance.
    The US competes with India and China. Brazil and Russia are also players, but the two main players are India and China. These countries are not dumb, are being lead in a much smarter way, and are not shooting themselves in the foot. These “socialist/communist” countries are nothing of the sort, the entitlements are bare to non existent, they foster business, ruthlessly defend local business against foreign business and are more capitalist than the United States. They have more people in their top 10% of every category than the US has people.
    So you smart mealy mouth pseudo educated armchair liberals with mental disability, keep spending, keep expending government and chasing away business and keep trying to turn on the tax spigot (any new taxes for the upper echelons of society will be passed on to the consumer/buyer/renter) and getting less and less revenue over time as you collapse the economy.

  183. dale February 9, 2010 at 12:29 pm #

    I would say that underlying most arguments against “free markets” is the question of how one defines “free” and if the concept of “fair” is also part of the equation.

  184. Cash February 9, 2010 at 12:36 pm #

    Agree with most of what you say except I don’t think the culture wars of the 1960s ever really stopped. My recollection is that the anti-Clinton hate from the Right in the 1990s was every bit as deranged as the recent anti-Bush hate from the Left.
    Remember the over the top detestation of Nixon by the Left in the 1970s? Watergate set new levels of idiocy but ignored/forgotten by the Left are Nixon’s getting out of Vietnam, opening the door to China, detente with the Soviets, the EPA.
    I think that old phrase we learned in history class: “two nations warring in the bosom of a single state” applied literally to the US in the 1860s and while the shooting stopped the North/South antagonism and resentment never did. It just changed clothes as Republican vs Democrat.

  185. CaptSpaulding February 9, 2010 at 12:47 pm #

    Looks like somebody forgot the spending of the Bush years. That, and the deregulation of just about everything, starting with Ronald Reagan and continuing through Clinton and of course “W”. Couple that with the fact that Corporations now own congress, and the fact that the Supreme Court just gave them permission to bombard the public with political ads, and things aren’t looking too good. You can be a liberal or a conservative and it doesn’t matter, because corporations live by the bottom line and don’t care who they are fucking over as long as they are making money. To argue about conservative vs liberal, is to deflect attention away from the true villains, and allows them to pursue their ruinous policies to the detriment of everyone in this country be they liberal or conservative. Regards to all

  186. Cash February 9, 2010 at 1:10 pm #

    A thought about sacrifice: it’s a funny thing, it seems that people from poor towns and cities (the South, rural areas) are willing to sacrifice, they puff their chests out and weep with pride when they play the national anthem, join the military, risk their lives.
    But it’s the opposite with wealthy people living in better off places (the northeast, California), they think they’re hip and intellectual if they take an adversarial stance against their own country. It seems habitual and visceral with them, that, no matter what, to Blame America First. To them “sacrifice” is not in their vocabulary, “truth”, “duty”, “honour” are dirty words. They wipe their ass with Old Glory. They want to be anti-establishment but the problem is that, to a large extent, they ARE the establishment.
    Regarding racial, ethnic, gender divisions: seems that Sotomayor is always referred to only as a Latina or a woman but never as an American. She gets away with saying things like her background as a Latina (ie non American or not a “real” American), growing up in in a crime ridden slum, would prepare her better for the Supreme Court than a middle class/ upper class white male that grew up in a prosperous neighbourhood. Imagine if a white male said that about his background as a white bread, anglo American that grew up in a good neighbourhood in a prosperous family etc etc. He’d be run out of town.

  187. george February 9, 2010 at 1:22 pm #

    JHK, your recent post was pure brilliance. Living in the former Motor City, I am all too aware of the incoherence that fuels movements like The Tea Party. For the last thirty years, at least, there has been one proposal after another to bring mass transit to Detroit. It always begins with a plan to build light-rail, dedicated bus lanes or whatever down Woodward. What’s left of Detroit’s movers and shakers begin to extol the benefits of mass transit in reviving Detroit’s core, how it will bring folks from the outer suburbs downtown and create lots of high-paying jobs etc. Committees are formed, consultants are hired, but nothing ever comes of it. Last night, I watched a two hour documentary on the local PBS affiliate where the movers and shakers once again promised to bring mass transit to the Motor City, only this time they were serious. It’s the same with the Tea Party crowd. Once they realize the movement isn’t going anywhere, the whole thing will dissolve only to be revived again under a new name.

  188. Vlad Krandz February 9, 2010 at 1:32 pm #

    My problem with Focault: There is jazz music that everyone likes; jazz that most jazz afficionados like; and then there is “conceptual jazz” that only jazz musicians like and only a few of them at that – the ones who play it. So they are basically playing for themselves. Which is fine. Same thing in art: I once went to an opening and the paintings were just monochrome browns with very subtle lines and gleams of other colors. Very skillfully done no doubt but really just art for other artists doing the same thing.
    Focault is like this too. He uses many, many words when a few will do. He makes up his own vocabulary instead of using already existing words or phrases. It’s all very impressive no doubt, but does it communicate to people? Or is it even meant to? After all, people love to know things other don’t and will use argots or special languages to hide their meanings. Both criminals and priesthoods do this. Lawyers are famous for using fancy technical language rather than just clear English. The ideas aren’t that complex usually. People could understand if the language was clear. But then Lawyers might begin to lose power and that can’t be allowed.
    Down with Focault and all the other French High Priests of the New Criticism. Let Knowledge flow as it should. Educate the people don’t intimidate them and then smile smugly. Real understanding works the other way: concision. Saying alot in as few words as possible. Using reams of words when a few would do better is a French Aesthetic. And like Conceptial Jazz or Monochrome Painting, it’s fine for those who like that kind of thing. But let’s not pretend it has anything to say to regular intellectuals much less regular people. If you want to reach them, then go back to the fundamentals of good prose.

  189. Dolan Williams February 9, 2010 at 1:33 pm #

    Okay Jim, you really hit a raw nerve here. These comments are coming from a guy whose first early memories were of picking cotton (by hand) on my father’s very large cotton farm. Little kids didn’t get a break there. Most everything we did was by hand like the name of your book. We had a tractor but that was it. We didn’t even have a car until 1955.
    Anway, Tennessee folks can certainly spell the word ‘opera’ but they can’t and never have been able to pronounce it. Until the end of his life my father always referred to Disneyland as ‘Dismeyland’ and a local community named Cairo went by the Mississippi pronunciation of ‘Karo’ like the syrup. I could go on and on.
    We never suffered from hookworm but I had one of the worst cases of chiggers ever imagined in the summer of ’74. We used to live quite happily without air conditioning in the fifties but that’s because we didn’t know any better because we had lived without it all our lives.
    However, I do have to ask you what Jesus tub-thumping is all about. My late brother was a Southern Baptist preacher and my oldest brother served in the same church as the head-honcho deacon. I have seen and been part of some strange things. One time when I was much younger, an older black woman who was coming to pray and visit with my mother grabbed ahold of me and tried to literally wring the asthma out of me. She fancied herself some type of faith healer and both she and her husband were ordained ministers. Anyway, it felt like I was in the clutches of one of those Mississippi Delta gators but I finally escaped. I think she meant well. But as far as the Jesus tub-thumping thing, I have no clue as to what you are talking about. However, my sister-in-law did play the cymbals during my brother’s many sermons. Maybe if she had obtained access to a tub, she would have tried to play that too. If you knew my sister-in-law, you would know what I’m talking about.

  190. Vlad Krandz February 9, 2010 at 1:58 pm #

    Walmart is on Target
    In the Berm between Target and WalMart,
    There my Lover and I did lie.
    In the median strip, among the tall weeds,
    Our illusions were Cut Away by Teeth.
    Who says that good cannot come from Stores?
    No Target – no Berm. No Walmart – no Weeds
    And no Love.
    Ever will I remember that hour of Spledour
    in the grass,
    And ever do I return to pay homage to the
    Berm where my Socialism was Cut Away – By
    The Teeth of Truth.

  191. turkle February 9, 2010 at 2:23 pm #

    Right on, Jimmie. I’m with ya.
    But what’s with the jibe at pulled pork sandwiches? They’re so tasty!

  192. wagelaborer February 9, 2010 at 2:30 pm #

    That’s not how I look at it.
    Sure, educated people are unwilling to sacrifice their lives, or to kill other people for corporate profit. And we don’t fall for the propaganda that murder is OK if the President tells you to do it. And we don’t believe that Grenada was an imminent threat or that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction.
    That’s because we can read and we can read testimony from people in the know.
    Other Americans are more than happy to go kill wherever they are aimed. Why would you think that this is duty or honor? And it’s definitely not truth. Truth is, the US military is used as a hit squad for US capitalism, as pointed out years ago by General Smedley Butler. It’s only worse now.
    It doesn’t make them more patriotic. I feel that I am more patriotic than some yahoo out smashing down Iraqi doors and terrorizing Iraqi citizens.
    I love my country and want to preserve it. I honor the Bill of Rights and want it back. I want to have every American have a decent life right here.
    But patriotism, as defined by the ruling class, is just lining up to kill and be killed. Not just limited, but wrong.
    I do think Americans should sacrifice for the wars. If the wars were in our faces, I think that more people would oppose them.
    That’s why I call for as-you-go payment for wars and for all TV, all the time, to be war coverage, everytime we’re in a war.
    http://wagelaborer.blogspot.com/2007/11/making-americans-pay-modest-proposal.html

  193. Vlad Krandz February 9, 2010 at 2:30 pm #

    “Isn’t it the only hope for the planet that the industrial collapse? Isn’t it our responsibility to bring that about”? Billionaire Maurice Strong, interview with Jim Johnson for the British Columbia Report 18 May 1992, Vol 3/#37/p.22
    And they call us paranoid. Now Trip and Pangolin might welcome this – until they realize that the Bilderbergers, CFR, et al intend to depopulate the countryside and herd people into the cities where they can be controlled. Strong and Co dream of a new feudalism with themselves as the Lords and Ladies living in luxury in their villas and estates surrounded by servants – while the masses work in the high cube farms in the city.

  194. Vlad Krandz February 9, 2010 at 2:43 pm #

    As in the 1800’s, an ounce of gold would buy a good suit or a good rifle. Today, nothing has really changed. The same ounce of gold still buys a nice suit or a good rifle. The relationship between gold and manufactured good was historically stable because as gold mining became more efficient, so did manufacturing. The equilibrium has remained constant for over 150 years, which is the whole point of honest money. Prices are information, and a stable monetary yardstick is needed for accurate price information. Ony the fiat currencies devalue. As Milton Friedman said, “Only goverment can take perfectly good paper, cover it with perfectly good ink, and make the combination worthless.”
    From “Molon Labe” by Boston
    T Party

  195. trippticket February 9, 2010 at 2:44 pm #

    “I challenge anyone with a brain to post here, but be parpared to have your stupid paradigms challenged!!!”
    Like the idea that you will be elevated to demi-god status, above the feckless ignorant masses when the New Age starts in 2012, Trillian?
    Is that the paradigm shift that enlightens and informs your world?
    I don’t think Douglas Adams would approve of your borrowing his characters for your space, time, and mind-warping posts among thoughtful people.
    And isn’t our Earth-bound gobbledy-gook getting in the way of astral projection hour at woo woo camp?
    Now be a good girl and run along and play with the other Aquarians. Thanks. Bye bye.

  196. turkle February 9, 2010 at 2:53 pm #

    “So you smart mealy mouth pseudo educated armchair liberals with mental disability, keep spending, keep expending government and chasing away business and keep trying to turn on the tax spigot (any new taxes for the upper echelons of society will be passed on to the consumer/buyer/renter) and getting less and less revenue over time as you collapse the economy.”
    I seem to recall 8 years of conservative misrule leading to where we are today, and now you blame “liberals with mental disability” for all the country’s problems. All the conservatives are frantically trying to divert blame to Obama and the Democrats, because their 2 terms were a miserable failure. What a fucking joke!
    Collapse the economy? Bush, a self-identified conservative, and his goon squad took the economy into the ground. How can you possibly blame liberals for that? So convenient that you have nothing to say about the people who have actually been in charge the last 10 years but have so many negative opinions about the approximately year-old Obama administration, practically still unpacking their boxes in comparison.
    Yeah, India and China…so great. Why don’t you move? That isn’t a “love it or leave it statement”. I simply think you don’t have a clue what those societies are actually like. They are far from capitalistic paradises and have serious problems of their own. India has barebones social entitlements? Great! Let’s copy India’s social entitlement system. We can make Cleveland look like Calcutta in 10 years!
    BTW, the “armchair liberal” Bill Clinton was the last president who seemed to think a balanced federal budget was important. That’s kind of ironic given what you and your TEA bagger friends are spewing, no?

  197. turkle February 9, 2010 at 3:02 pm #

    Cheney said, “Deficits don’t matter.”
    Reagan created the largest federal deficits of all time, which we’re still paying down.
    Bush cut taxes, accelerated spending, and did not cut programs, even as the deficit continued to increase.
    Bill Clinton was the last president who seemed to really give a damn about the government’s finances.
    And yet, somehow you moronic TEA-bagging mouth-breathers have the gall to blame the “evil liberals” for the government’s financial problems.
    What a bunch of fucking cards. I’m moving to Canada ASAP.

  198. asia February 9, 2010 at 3:07 pm #

    Jim:
    The Weimar Republicans watched the Stupid Bowl, 100 million of them did.
    meanwhile the Dows under 10,000 [gasp] while 20%of federal workers make 100k a year or more!
    And Planned Parenthood wants schools to teach masturbation to 5 year olds in kindergarten.

  199. asia February 9, 2010 at 3:11 pm #

    ‘Let’s not bash the South’…HUH? BTS is the name of jimmys game!

  200. turkle February 9, 2010 at 3:14 pm #

    “Let’s not bash the South while sparing those of us Yanks who were the chief architects and cheerleaders for the fake growth of the past 10 years, or really, the past 30 years. These people are, like Santelli, wealthy, well-educated, and well-connected.”
    I tend to agree with you. Jim heaps scorn on the Sun Belt, but I don’t see much different between them and everyone else in the country, frankly.

  201. asia February 9, 2010 at 3:15 pm #

    Jared…a bore on TV..i did enjoy reading his riff on isolated races…greeenland? easter.
    the pics in the book i read were really weird, not at all appropriate. more like national geographic or ‘ celebrate our diversity’.

  202. turkle February 9, 2010 at 3:16 pm #

    “a bore on TV”
    I can tell you’re a really deep thinker…

  203. asia February 9, 2010 at 3:16 pm #

    ‘the “evil liberals” for the government’s financial problems.’
    HAS OBAMA TRIPLED THE NATIONAL DEBT?

  204. turkle February 9, 2010 at 3:18 pm #

    “HAS OBAMA TRIPLED THE NATIONAL DEBT?”
    I guess you would think that if you watch a lot of Fox News.

  205. asia February 9, 2010 at 3:18 pm #

    ‘But what they are NOT in favor of is smaller business!’…Maybe because no one explained the facts to them?

  206. asia February 9, 2010 at 3:21 pm #

    Controversy from the land of the ‘slow food’ movement:
    Minister Luca Zaia has argued that McDonald’s new McItaly burger — using all Italian beef, Asiago cheese and artichoke spread — will pump (EURO)3.5 million ($4.8 million) more a month into the pockets of Italian farmers grappling with tough economic times.
    But for a country that gave birth to the Slow Food movement a quarter-century ago and prides itself on its varied, delicious and healthy cuisine, Zaia’s enthusiastic support of McDonald’s has been hard to swallow

  207. turkle February 9, 2010 at 3:24 pm #

    Asia,
    Let me give you a history lesson, because you obviously know jack. Republicans created the deficit by floating gigantic military budgets and cutting taxes. They did this all through Reagan and Bush I, from 1980 to 1992. Then for 8 years Bush did this like it was going out of style. Now Obama has inherited this financial shit storm created by Republicans.
    How can you possibly heap all this scorn and blame on Obama with a straight face? I’m not even an active Obama supporter, and I think its ridiculous to blame him for over 20 years of misrule by another political party. Seriously, you and your deranged TEA-bagger friends have the historical awareness of a bunch of guppies.

  208. trippticket February 9, 2010 at 3:35 pm #

    Trillian,
    I’ve posted at some length before about agricultural vs. horticultural societies, and the un/sustainable paradigms inherent in each. What occurred to me this morning, before you and Shirley McClain set me off, is that Aquarians are just the next incarnation of the agrarian, linear, expansionary suicide that got us here. We’re running out of physical space to expand into and subjugate, so the next phase is to feign mental superiority, gather a following (which is easy when you tell people they have super-powers), and expand into the mental realm.
    Your “enlightened” paradigm is the same old growth paradigm wrapped in a shiny new package. It professes radical change from the status quo while it takes the same dirty old baton from the farmer gasping for breath behind you.
    There is a way out of this mess, but it is so fundamentally different for agricultural man that almost no one seems to see it.

  209. trippticket February 9, 2010 at 3:42 pm #

    Asia, I liked this quote from Slow Food founder, Carlo Petrini:
    “Taste, like identity, only has value when there are differences.”
    Go ahead, Vlad…

  210. trippticket February 9, 2010 at 3:55 pm #

    “Jared…a bore on TV”
    Good thing he’s an author…

  211. abbeysbooks February 9, 2010 at 3:59 pm #

    The cutting edge analysis is by Foucault. Discipline and Punish, Madness and Civilization and The History of Sexuality in which he applies a genealogical method of analysis derived from Nietzsche.
    You are correct. The only avenue is individual resistance on a local scale. The main weakness IMHO that the biggies have is biopower. They haven’t harnessed it. Yet.

  212. abbeysbooks February 9, 2010 at 4:01 pm #

    No way out.

  213. trippticket February 9, 2010 at 4:01 pm #

    Asia, which book are you talking about? Sounds like Collapse, but there are no inappropriate pictures in that one. Are you talking about Why Sex is Fun? I haven’t read that one yet.

  214. trippticket February 9, 2010 at 4:03 pm #

    Abbey, don’t feel like you have to take anyone else down with your defeated attitude.

  215. abbeysbooks February 9, 2010 at 4:08 pm #

    If you look at it genealogically then you havend’t gone back far enough. Try 2 hundred years for starters.
    Knowledge/power is a relation, twined in an eer fusing spiral. You and no one else is going to untangle it.
    Since I have studied this in the past few months all is clear and all discourse on the internet is confused and confabulated because they don’t get it.
    All your Dominating Discourse is wrong. Take the simple road out now for self sustainment and study the Dominating Discourse.
    Then expand on it in any area that possesses you. Man will perish without this understanding and even with it may also become extinct. You must know a lot of history to get through his work but he does write so you will have the best chance of understanding.

  216. turkle February 9, 2010 at 4:24 pm #

    abbey,
    Let’s not get too abstract here. The current government budget deficits can clearly be traced back to Reagan and, before that, Nixon. Both parties share blame, because the Democrats also held some Congressional power during periods of Republican rule. My main point was that blaming the current leadership for the US government’s financial problems that go back at least 30 years is ridiculous and just plain ill-informed.

  217. turkle February 9, 2010 at 4:30 pm #

    “Abbey, don’t feel like you have to take anyone else down with your defeated attitude.”
    The populations of living species rise and fall in a natural pattern of cycles. Humans are not fundamentally different, and the human population changes in concert with the state of the environment. In fact, we may be MORE animal-like and basically stupid than most other mammals when it comes down to it, because I don’t see bears or wolves destroying their life support systems to make cheap whoopee cushions and blenders for each other.

  218. turkle February 9, 2010 at 4:37 pm #

    Anyone who thinks their mushy positive attitude will overcome fundamental problems with the way our entire civilization works has their head in the clouds or perhaps someplace a bit darker and smellier.

  219. trippticket February 9, 2010 at 4:55 pm #

    You’re obviously missing a very important part of my philosophy, turkleton. I don’t think there’s a snowball’s chance in hell that “civilization” will endure. But every collapse leaves a few behind to tell the tale. Are you thinking about ways to try out your story telling skills, or do you just assume you’ll be a statistic?

  220. budizwiser February 9, 2010 at 6:27 pm #

    Shucks JHK, there’s room in Mayberry for you too. You’all don’t have to go on and talk poorly of those who see God and Country in cars and guns.
    A gentle reminder, there simply aren’t any US citizens living a life on “energy par” with most of the third world. In other words – by our very existence we’ve been fucking the rest of the world over for many, many years.
    I really wish we’d get back to the task at hand. We need do discuss how to disconnect the world’s population away from the notion of single-person-mode petroleum-powered passenger vehicles.
    If we can simply discuss this singular, all-encompassing cause of petroleum consumption the world over – we wouldn’t need your colorful, yet cliche-driven stereo-typical descriptions of all those “other people” you need for your superiority complex.
    Now of course, this doesn’t mean I’m right, or your wrong about anything. It’s just that this supposed to be the place to discuss PO and why there are better and worse ways to experience it.
    Could the next 50 posts mention gasoline?

  221. Workingman1 February 9, 2010 at 6:53 pm #

    I have met dozens of Northeastern JHK’s who love to bash the South. Some friends who have the Ivy pedigree who think if they go past Northern Virginia they are in danger of hearing banjo music ,and being hogtied by Gomer and Bubba.
    What has come out of Up State New York lately or
    anytime ever? Larry, Larry and my other brother Larry. Crappy food, music, long boring winters?
    A Southern Man don’t need you around anyhow!

  222. jerry February 9, 2010 at 7:10 pm #

    james, once again, I must say that your anger is spot-on with the Teabaggers, and the likes of the dried bone of a man–Harry Reid. The hypocrisy surround the numbskulls paying close to $600 to listen the Sarah the palm reader, and other nitwits creating a hubbub over their so-called efforts, which they want to call populism. Funny, funny.
    Listen James, I hate to remind you, and I am sure this thought has floated through your brain many of time, nothing is going to change until the entire thing goes up in smoke. When Obama decided, and CONgress, too, that Bernanke is the best guy to re-ignite the debt asset financial Bubble called homebuyer debt, as well as small business lending so consumers can only contemplate if they want to buy the stuff the manufacturer, or distributor is hoping to sell.
    Nothing is about to change. Nothing worth really talking about. Until we end the wars, and stop that spending, and end the huge domestic spying and culling programs, and end the corporation as human reality shows, nothing will change.
    http://eye-on-washington.blogspot.com

  223. CaptSpaulding February 9, 2010 at 7:20 pm #

    Hi Turkle, I agree with you all the way. I’m not an Obama supporter either, nor do I think that he’s gonna solve our problems. Jesus Christ couldn’t solve the mess that we’re in, and to blame Obama for the present state of affairs is nonsense. When you cut taxes on corporations and increase spending, what can you expect to happen? Regards to You

  224. diogen February 9, 2010 at 7:59 pm #

    To JHK: I had to re-read this week’s essay to see why so many readers felt that you made statements derogatory of the South. I decided there were a few not-so-subtle references which, combined with your past derision of Southern culture, conveyed an impression of unfair criticism of the South. I have to tell you that I enjoy your sharp social criticism, but I definitely do NOT enjoy your occasional bigoted and stereotypical characterizations of whole swaths of people. I’m a Northerner, but I was offended by your unfair and sweeping generalizations about the people of the South. Many of the faults you attributed to the South are equally true of the rest of the country.
    Bigotry toward the Southerners is as pathetic as bigotry toward any other group of people, and you should be sensitive to that, perhaps a little more than most folks. You can do better, Kunstler. I don’t suppose you’ll apologize, perhaps you feel you’re too big to fail (in your judgement). I hope you’ll give some consideration to this comment and attempt to avoid stereotyping of any kind, it undermines your credibility as a serious social critic. P.S. Same with your occasional derisions of some Christians — how is that different from the derisions of Jews, Italians, Blacks, Poles, Gays,etc. that you’d find objectionable?

  225. Bill Simpson February 9, 2010 at 8:42 pm #

    Jim, if you knew how much Social Security check money went into slot machines, I bet you would really be pissed off. Get ready for means testing for SS recipients in a few years. I can hear it now, “Do people who can afford to gamble really need a SS check?”
    Maybe we could do a national gambling tax to recycle some of it back into the Social Security System.
    Can we get the Tea Party convention down in New Orleans next time? We have an abandoned theme park too, Six Flooded Flags. Photographs can be seen on the terrastories.com website, right there with those of one of your favorite parks, Michael Jackson’s Neverland. Actually, the night photos are very good. Check out the Pacific Bell roof shots if you tour the Bearings blog. Good work.

  226. Kurt Cagle February 9, 2010 at 8:43 pm #

    WageLaborer,
    The Tea Party is deliberate noise. It’s being fed by specific moneyed interests in conjunction with right wing media organizations in order to bring down the government. The hard right tried playing by the rules and failed (spectacularly), and they recognize that the only way that they will in fact get back into power is to change the form of government itself, preferably into a full blown fascist oligarchy.
    The Weimar analogy is apt – Hitler recruited his Brown Shirts from ex-soldiers, hard-line patriots, displaced farmers, and the legions of unemployed, often using the same illogical rhetoric that seems to be the staple of the Tea Party.
    At first his was just one of a number of what amounted to roving gangs, until he caught the eyes of German financiers who saw in his charismatic hyperbole a way of stealing the wealth of the Jewish bankers that they competed with. The Weimar Republic, bankrupt after WW I and the treaty of Versailles, could no longer keep the army together, and all those released soldiers, trained to kill and sitting idle (and often unemployed) were naturals for Hitler’s new private army.
    The big danger sign to watch for with the Tea Party and related groups is their potential for militancy. The same group bankrolling the Tea Parties could very easily start supplying uniforms, arms and communication equipment – and the bubbas that Jim points out here as the corn pone nazis here would very readily take to both, especially if it gives them a sense of purpose and an adrenaline high.
    Such Tea Party Militias will likely graduate from protests to vandalism to outright terrorism, ripe for explotation by sufficiently charismatic leaders, and used by the powers that be against both local and state government officials and the typical targets of such home-grown terrorist armies – intellectuals, homosexuals, minorities, Jews, and so forth.
    In a way, the collapse of the Republican Party

  227. cuddletuffy February 9, 2010 at 8:50 pm #

    I think that corn-pone fascism has already taken over our system of government. Worse, it is a fascist form of government no matter which figureheads of the War Party have the reins of the executive and legislative branches. At issue is whether will we slide deeper into a new worse phase or find our way out of it through active self-governance.
    I honestly don’t know who or what the Tea Party movement is right now. I do know that there appear to be factions that are trying to co-opt the intellectual work of the classical liberals who truly care about our economic well being and our individual and social liberties.
    I think that leftist/liberal statists have some fundamental contradictions in their ideology that they need to address. If they don’t get honest very quick and rid themselves of this notion of dividing the world between their ineffective leaders like Pelosi, Reid and Obama and the evil Tea Partiers all lumped into one, they will deserve a lot of the blame for the next phase of our devolution into fascism. Namely, the stage of fascism where life in the, “Homeland”, is lived along a spectrum of marshall law – where minorities, (ethnic and dissident/anti-state intellectuals), get blamed as the elites need to deflect blame for the crisis they created and keep making worse.
    Ron Paul has recently discussed, in statesmen’s terms, how smarmy politicians like Michelle Bachmann are co-opting the language of the anti-fascist pro-freedom movement. Anybody who is intellectually honest, will understand and acknowledge that split between the integral intellectual movement represented by the Campaign For Liberty, and the right wing of the fascist war party, the GOP.
    I used to be a liberal. Modern American left/liberalism/progressivism has a fundamental problem that liberals must solve idealogically before they can solve anything politically. That is namely, that the warfare state is also the welfare state. They continue to compromise with the imperialists, in order to get the largesse of the state for social welfare programs even in the face of decades of evidence that the social welfare programs are not only ineffective they are counterproductive.
    On the day Obama announced his dog-and-pony 2011 budget freeze, Robert Gates had all of the major defense contractors over for reassurances that their spot at the public trough is sacrosanct. What is missing from Kunstler’s narrative is that the big slide is a big push – the imperial class will push productive society off of a cliff replacing the gold in our pockets with stones before they do. Last week’s events are proof of the stage of imperialism that we are in.
    I think liberals need to come home to their roots. The roots are classical-liberalism as defined most closely by the main intellectuals of the Campaign For Liberty. Those roots espouse a deep distrust of power concentrated in too few hands – especially the state. Ron Paul has, at least since 2007, offered welfare-state liberals a place at the table as we acknowledge our bankruptcy, and move to address it. He has offered to lead dismantling the empire, by far our biggest wealth destruction engine, and agreed to put aside the issue of the social welfare state in order to take on the imperial Leviathan first.
    I think the liberals ought to move quickly to take that compromise. Palin, Bachmann, Gingrich, Obama, Pelosi … … will never offer it. If welfare-state leftists do not take that offering soon, the warfare state will dismantle the social welfare state in bankruptcy long before adherents of classical liberalism could ever, if ever, hope to. It is happening right before our eyes.
    The disenfranchised left ignores this partnership at its peril. If it chooses to lump in the intellectual libertarians with the right-wing statists all together as Tea Partiers/Baggers, all bets are off. You will get more and more virulent strains corn-pone fascism. With any luck you’ll at least come knocking under cover of night to discuss that partnership.
    In case you feel compelled to procrastinate, carefully consider that just because today certain entangling foreign alliances are sacrosanct, doesn’t mean they will be once they are no longer politically expedient. God forbid they become expedient as a means to scapegoat innocent but easily associated ethnic minorities here in the, “Homeland.”
    Dismissing everyone who is not a traditional Democrat Party supporting liberal, or who genuinely believes in liberty and economic morality as a Tea Partying fascist is dishonest and counterproductive. It is also, at this point in our history a very dangerous thing to do. The answers are out there. Adhering to the libertarian ideals as embodied by Ron Paul, Lew Rockwell, Tom Woods and other Austrians is the best way to realize Kunstler’s vision of a simpler, more honest, equal, fair, moral, productive, localized, sustainable economy and society.
    It is also the best way to redistribute wealth for you liberals who believe in that principle. The bankrupt would go bankrupt – that would include Goldmann Sachs, Wall St. and the rest of the debt-sucking paper selling parasite machines. The prudent would stand above them at the curb hearing the voice of Martin Luther King in their ear; “True compassion is more than flinging a coin to a beggar. It comes to see that an edifice which produces beggars needs restructuring.”
    It is time to cast off old identities and start adhering to ideals, unafraid of what tent somebody who shares and ardently upholds those ideals did or does reside in. That takes integrity and a lot of courage. Courage is what we need. Not that two-side coin of Hope and Fear they keep tossing every couple of years.

  228. Laura Louzader February 9, 2010 at 10:39 pm #

    Cuddletuffy, your post is the most intelligent and well-reasoned comment I have ever read on this site, in five years of following CFN.
    You say everything I’ve wanted to say and you say it much more comprehensively and concisely than I could have.
    Thank you for your post. I’m saving it on my hard drive.

  229. Laura Louzader February 9, 2010 at 10:43 pm #

    Cuddletuffy, your post is absolutely the most intelligent and well-reasoned comment ever left on this site.
    You say what I believe, and you say it much more comprehensively and concisely than I could have.
    Thanks for this post. I notice you don’t have your own site, or at least don’t link it. You should.

  230. Vlad Krandz February 9, 2010 at 11:39 pm #

    Exactly so. Chocolate is good. Vanilla is good. They are even good together – a bite of one can help you appreciate a bite of the other. But actually mashing them together? Miscegenating vanilla into chocolate? In the name of God, Why? Nothing is gained and so much is lost.
    Wage “loves America”. Sure she does. She wants to change it utterly into something completely different culturally and ethnically. Not a natural evolution of the people already here – but a forced change from the top bringing tens of millions of aliens in by 2050. Between that and the prodigious prolificy of the ones we already have, the projected population by 2050 is 400 million, a nightmare in other words. How is any of this “love of America”? We understand these things in the microcosm but lose it when it comes to the big picture. Would anyone stay with someone who said they loved you but wanted to change everything about you – even the most fundamental things? And make no mistake ethnicity and language are the core basics. There is no America without a dominant White Majority who speaks English. Back to core Liberalism? Great. That means classicaly educated Whites speaking English. Some other cultures may partake of parts of this if they can – as the Japanese have done. The Hispanics and the Africans show little interest and less aptitude.
    Also while I got you, you mentioned before your hiatus that meat eating can be less destructive than vegetarianism. That’s huge, but you disapeared before I could aske about it. Can you explain?

  231. cuddletuffy February 9, 2010 at 11:44 pm #

    Laura,
    Thank you for the kind words and compliment. I have thought of having my own site for a while. I’ve been commenting here for the past few months. Maybe I’ll start a blog with a collection of my posts here.
    It is nice to see someone who understands this perspective. Maybe LewRockwell.com will reference this post.
    Be Well.

  232. trippticket February 10, 2010 at 12:03 am #

    “Also while I got you, you mentioned before your hiatus that meat eating can be less destructive than vegetarianism. That’s huge, but you disapeared before I could aske about it. Can you explain?”
    Yeah, man. But with a caveat. It has to be grass-fed beef. And it has to be mob-grazed like Joel Salatin does. This continent evolved under regular pressure from massive herds of migrating grazing ungulates. There’s no more efficient way to convert sunlight into meat than by letting a cow eat what it evolved to eat. Grass.
    So the question remains, how is that more efficient than the primary production that plants engage in? Well, grazing cattle also drop and grind in fertilizer as they go, and they crop vegetation which causes grasses and forbs to shed rootmass, increasing organic content in the soil.
    Which has the effect of removing atmospheric carbon. So if high levels of CO2 are a problem, mob-grazed, grass-eating cows are actually a boon to our well-being. And the methane everyone loves to talk about coming out of their rears is greatly diminished by their natural diet. And the nutrient profile of grass-fed beef is far healthier than grain-fed. Although some people don’t like the lack of white fat marbling at all.
    Heading back down the timeline, Toby Hemenway would say that meat-eating is great for physical structure building in humans, but not the most effecient source of raw materials for our metabolism. By contrast, eating grain is way cheaper calorically, and easier to produce and hoard a surplus. More children were born to agrarians than to foragers. Lots more.
    So one might even say that it was vegetable crops that got us into this mess. On a deep historical level.

  233. Fredric Lorenzen February 10, 2010 at 12:05 am #

    A conjecture,
    Since patriotism is now characterized as corn pone regionalism from tooth challenged, withering gene nondiversity and a certain penchant for “clutching their bibles and guns” I suppose a blatant disregard for the constitution and hatred of country is the new easy and enlightened realm of the spiritually bereft and those of a certain otiose hebitude. Looking down on those of us with high dudgeon time stranded in a existential desert of PC dishonesty and power broker agendas of sky falling lies and cooked data..we yearn for the simple honesty of 1950 even with it’s pimples of ethnic injustice.
    How did we stray so far from decency? When did it start? What did the “angry young men” of the 60’s have to pout about as their pampered asses set about poking a stick in the establisment’s eye? What began as parental disrespect evolved into bomb making and sit ins and worst. We lost the hard won knowledge of the blighted 30’s. Those lean scruffy looking heroes worn down but not surrendered not looking for handouts or plethora of government subsidies. They worked when they could find it and saved and denied themselves so their progeny might have the chance circumstances had denied them. When did “fuck” become fashionable and “Jesus” become profanity? Perhaps we have put too much faith in our collegiate mind factories.. our red leaning professors isolated in their ivory towers with onion shaped domes. Perhaps we spared the rod too much. Perhaps our young were deprived of the chance to experience failure or to go without something. Why did we smother them with material things while erasing their childhood’s humanity in a flurry of achievement oriented games and career posturing. When did we become so suicidal as to confer citizen’s rights to terrorists avowed to destroy us? To Mirandize enemy combatants. I fear we suffer from a desperate disturbed isolation, even in the midst of a maelstrom of communication assets. A screaming lonliness of faith in nothing, of no one on the other side of the mirror. We have begun to be ugly. The kids tattoed and pierced and lumped and surgically demonized are perhaps honest enough to see and physically demonstrate what is a spiritual withering unto death. Maybe that’s what Obama meant to say,corpsemen.Hey,by the way how’s that “hope” and “change” working out for you?

  234. Vlad Krandz February 10, 2010 at 12:13 am #

    I agree with Laura. You have some very nice ideas here. Reasonableness is the essence of Liberalism. It’s much more than just being smart or well educated. It’s using what you have to find out more. It’s using what you have well – which by definition means with humility. It’s certainly a world away from the fashionable snarkiness of calling the Tea Party tea baggers – a homosexual slur.
    But your hopes are in vain I’m afraid. Liberalism is always changing, as the name Move On.com implies. But morphing towards what? Towards Communism. It has strayed very far from its classcial roots of John Stuart Milll and people like Thomas Jefferson. They would not recognize what it has become. Classical Liberalism is basically what Real Conservatism is now – as you seem to know. Can you in you most wild imagination believe that Liberals are willing to go back? They don’t even have the humility to admit they were wrong about Obama. Do you expect them to acknowledge that Joe McCarthy was right? That Liberalism has been infiltrated by the dogs and swine of Communism? And that women DON’T have the right to kill their own babies because they’re inconvenient?
    No, no, no, no. They wont do it. And calling the Tea Party tea baggers is just SO MUCH FUN. And as Cash said, betraying one’s people and nation is just so cool. That’s what these people are and where they’re at: complete frivolity and veniality pepered with utter hatred for those who aren’t as degraded as they are.
    Of course compromise works both ways. We could compromise on the social issues while we dismantle the Fed and put the Banksters in jail. Then we could agree to disagree and disolve the Nation into appropriate sectors. There can be no ultimate compromise about abortion. It’s a deal breaker.

  235. asoka February 10, 2010 at 12:13 am #

    NEWS ITEM: “Community banks and CUs teaming up to pass, 65-0, a milestone bill in the New Mexico House.
    The bill enables a possible switch of $2-5 billion of state funds into CUs and small banks.”
    Qshtik bet the State of New Mexico would not move its money from the Big Banks to credit unions and small community banks.
    It appears Qshtik is on the verge of losing another gentleman’s bet. 65-0 is a pretty strong vote against the Big Banks.
    http://www.moveyourmoney.info

  236. asoka February 10, 2010 at 12:14 am #

    We are not the Weimar Republic.
    INFLATION IN WEIMAR 1923
    under Gustav Stresemann:
    Million-fold inflation, that’s 1,000,000% inflation
    INFLATION IN USA, 2009
    under Barack Obama:
    Zero inflation… that’s 0% inflation
    The only hyperinflation we have today is of rhetoric.
    And not just today. For some time now:
    1967
    Lyndon Johnson users in Weimar USA with gimmicked accounting standards and unified budget reporting
    http://www.vinesbranch.com/view/?pageID=59503
    1987
    Volcker’s stagflation ushers in Weimar USA
    http://mises.org/daily/642
    1990
    George H. W. Bush ushers in Weimar USA
    http://www.seek4truth.com/George-Bush.html
    1997
    The economic policies of Greenspan and Camdessus ushers in Weimar USA
    http://www.larouchepub.com/lar/1997/wells.html
    2008
    “Global bankers” are ushering in Weimar USA
    http://it.getalyric.com/ascoltare/N5F97jgSLfI/glenn_beck_highlights_threat_of_martial_law
    There have been people saying Weimar is right around the corner for decades. There have always been conspiracy theorists engaged in scapegoat hunts (Jews, bankers, unions, etc).
    I’m just surprised, and disappointed, that JHK has joined the conspiracy theorists by parroting conspiracy nuts like Lyndon LaRouche, the messianic believers, and the Glenn Becks of the world.
    P. S.
    The Weimar Republic survived its hyperinflation crisis. Germany is strong today.
    The USA, which does not have a million-fold inflation rate, will also survive.
    Chill out, people.

  237. cowswithguns February 10, 2010 at 12:16 am #

    Great post, Cuddletuffy. I second Laura’s assessment.
    Seeing the left, or what passes for the left nowadays, stand by and joke about the tea partiers (as ridiculous as they may be) while our country is falling apart due to the forces of history — while Bernanke happily ensures us McWorld can go on — has made me sick.
    The left is singing past the graveyard, when it should be extending a hand to the rational folks on the opposite side of the aisle.
    The left that’s in power now is not really the left, it is but a spin-machine for the right. And it will hinder any effort to unravel the steamy pile of dogshit that is the American economy in a rational and fair way that benfits the masses.

  238. cowswithguns February 10, 2010 at 12:18 am #

    Hell yes. Finally, some leaders who recognize the lie of the too-big-to-fail economy. Too bad the guys in DC won’t follow this lead.

  239. Laura Louzader February 10, 2010 at 12:28 am #

    Vlad, there is a massive moral difference between a first-trimester abortion and “killing your baby”. A fetus is on its way to becoming a human being, but it is not yet one.
    The human race has to be weeded out- either before birth or after. Women, who have the responsibility for the quality of the species, know the importance of managing fecundity so that a baby is born at the right time, in the right circumstances. This is harder to manage than you might think. The human body is fecund in all seasons and extremely refractory to birth control- we don’t have the “self regulation” that wild animals have, that limits their fertility in unfavorable circumstances. A woman might be able to use modern methods of birth control successfully, but some cannot, for a variety of reasons.
    Our prisons and slums are full of people who wish like hell their mothers hadn’t given birth to them. If abortion is the only way to reduce births to poor teen mothers, to the mentally challenged, or to people who just can’t cope, well, then let it be.

  240. Vlad Krandz February 10, 2010 at 12:33 am #

    The musical “Oklahoma” says there’s no reason why the farmer and cowboy can’t be friends. But apparently there is. Herding takes up alot of space. In Africa, the nomadic, herding Massai were the deadly enemies of the agricultural Kikyu. And unlike many farmers, the Kikyu were good fighters too…
    If we could just utilize Cow Farts as an alternative energy…As my old friend Linda used to say about public pissing, “bottle it and sell it in Paris as “Essence of Uraine”.
    A group of Indians in Peru were caught after a decade of killing people for their fat. They would remove the fat and sell it to cosmetic companies in Europe. Europeans were prefered victims – more fat.

  241. asoka February 10, 2010 at 12:45 am #

    We are not the Weimar Republic.
    INFLATION IN WEIMAR 1923
    under Gustav Stresemann:
    Million-fold inflation, that’s 1,000,000% inflation
    INFLATION IN USA, 2009
    under Barack Obama:
    Zero inflation… that’s 0% inflation
    The only hyperinflation we have today is of rhetoric.

  242. asoka February 10, 2010 at 12:47 am #

    1967
    Lyndon Johnson users in Weimar USA with gimmicked accounting standards and unified budget reporting
    http://www.vinesbranch.com/view/?pageID=59503
    1987
    Volcker’s stagflation ushers in Weimar USA
    http://mises.org/daily/642
    1990
    George H. W. Bush ushers in Weimar USA
    http://www.seek4truth.com/George-Bush.html
    1997
    The economic policies of Greenspan and Camdessus ushers in Weimar USA
    http://www.larouchepub.com/lar/1997/wells.html
    2008
    “Global bankers” are ushering in Weimar USA
    http://it.getalyric.com/ascoltare/N5F97jgSLfI/glenn_beck_highlights_threat_of_martial_law
    There have been people saying Weimar is right around the corner for decades. There have always been conspiracy theorists engaged in scapegoat hunts (Jews, bankers, unions, etc).

  243. asoka February 10, 2010 at 12:51 am #

    1967
    Lyndon Johnson users in Weimar USA with gimmicked accounting standards and unified budget reporting
    http://www.vinesbranch.com/view/?pageID=59503

  244. asoka February 10, 2010 at 12:51 am #

    1987
    Volcker’s stagflation ushers in Weimar USA
    http://mises.org/daily/642

  245. asoka February 10, 2010 at 12:52 am #

    1990
    George H. W. Bush ushers in Weimar USA
    http://www.seek4truth.com/George-Bush.html

  246. asoka February 10, 2010 at 12:52 am #

    1997
    The economic policies of Greenspan and Camdessus ushers in Weimar USA
    http://www.larouchepub.com/lar/1997/wells.html

  247. asoka February 10, 2010 at 1:00 am #

    Every year people are saying Weimar is just around the corner because the times are so bad.
    2008
    “Global bankers” are ushering in Weimar USA
    http://it.getalyric.com/ascoltare/N5F97jgSLfI/glenn_beck_highlights_threat_of_martial_law

  248. asoka February 10, 2010 at 1:01 am #

    Weimar Republic is here, they always say, and there have always been conspiracy theorists engaged in scapegoat hunts for the guilty (Jews, bankers, unions, etc).
    I’m just surprised, and disappointed, that JHK has joined the conspiracy theorists by parroting conspiracy nuts like Lyndon LaRouche, the messianic believers, and the Glenn Becks of the world.
    P. S.
    The Weimar Republic survived its hyperinflation crisis. Germany is strong today.
    The USA, which does not have a million-fold inflation rate, will also survive.
    Chill out, people.

  249. Vlad Krandz February 10, 2010 at 1:12 am #

    Can’t use contraception responsibly for some reason? For some reason? Yeah like stupidity, irresponsibility, or desire for welfare money. No, the choice is whether to open your legs or not. The second choice is to use contraception or not. If a woman misses those two and concieves, she is morally bound to go all the way. Incredibly, some women carry to term and have the baby killed as it is about to come out. What’s up with that? After going through the whole ordeal, why not just give it up for adoption? I’m sure you will make an excuse for them – women love to back each other up no matter what the evil is.
    For Liberalism to regenerate, Feminism per se has to go. The suffragettes would be appalled by its hatred of men and hositility to marriage and family. Modern Feminism is nothing but grievance mongering. They have weakened our culture to the point of desturction. White Women refused to cooperate with White Men – so now they can serve (and I do mean serve) their new dark skined Masters. They will rue their error, but it will be too late.
    And the blame on this also goes out to all the men who pay for, perform, pressure their girlfriends, vote for, or make allowance for – abortion.
    Again, be warned: when America breaks up we will not tolerate it in our midst. Choose your State and region well if you plan to kill the newborn or feel that women have the right to kill – called by Supreme Idiots, the Right to Privacy.
    The woman who starred in Roe vs Wade has repented of her sin and is now against abortion – as are most Americans now. Step by step we will crush this evil, just like decent people crushed cannibalism long ago.

  250. cuddletuffy February 10, 2010 at 1:14 am #

    Hi Vlad –
    I would agree that some liberals are stupid, vain, and other things that you say outright or imply. However, those traits are orthogonal to any strain of political partisanship or self-identity. I have been those things at various points in my own life.
    They are the traits of human weakness. So are slander and arrogance as they are rooted in fear. This is what the parasites feed upon – the point of entry to the human host. Let us appeal to human strengths, and not be discouraged at how few are strong, but that there is ample strength in small and growing numbers to accomplish great things.
    The point of my post is that lumping everyone into a category like that is dangerous and counterproductive. If we truly care, we should be making factual arguments and trusting that enough will come around. Remember, we don’t need to convince everyone. It is only a significant minority that is confident, well-informed, humble and poised that will see us through to better days.
    It is rare the human who doesn’t need the darkness to find the light. Remember that as there is a long night ahead. We must shine through it. Be well.
    P. S. Ask a, “liberal”, “Do you want to end the Empire?” They’ll say yes if they aren’t hopeless. Then suggest that they can if they End the Fed. Then, point them to Tom Woods’ books and mises.org. Enough will come around.

  251. pluton February 10, 2010 at 1:15 am #

    “The whole “sumptin’ fer nutin'” e-con-omy really got its start under Ronnie Raygun.”
    Ahhh, Ronald Reagan…the first completely phony president we ever had.

  252. cuddletuffy February 10, 2010 at 1:25 am #

    On more thing Vlad,
    Ron Paul has long ago agreed to leave the social welfare state as a future issue so that we can address the military welfare state in the present.
    As far as I know that offer still stands – at least as long as the left has a social welfare state to bargain with before the military takes it all over. I think that is the process of what is happening now – near total militarization of the budgets. It is up to the left to figure this one out and fast.
    The military cartel got its assurances last week at Gates’ doge. As far as I know, the only other assurances handed out were to Freddie and Fannie – only because of the affect writing off their liabilities will have on the banking cartel.

  253. wagelaborer February 10, 2010 at 1:26 am #

    Careful not to confuse TV liberals with actual liberals. And, of course, there are no TV leftists, so you really can’t tell what they’re doing.
    Personally, as a leftist, I never advocate a welfare state. I advocate a society in which everyone who is capable of working works, and everyone shares in the products of society.
    I hang with right wing people. Here’s the thing about them. They may be confused about how to fix society, but at least they’re paying attention!
    Only the far left and the far right seem to care about the loss of liberty and the massive government spending and we are both outraged about it.
    Principled rightists are against foreign entanglements and large militaries. So are we.
    They want the government to leave us alone. So do we.
    They value work and family. So do we.
    Real right wingers want to abolish corporations, as I do. You won’t see a liberal go there.
    Abortion is supported by sensible rightists that I know.

  254. AMR February 10, 2010 at 1:54 am #

    Laura,
    You’re right about prohibition not working, corrupting law enforcement and enriching organized crime. With gambling, however, I think that the status quo ante circa 1970-1985 was a rather effective middle ground between national prohibition and allowing predatory gambling enterprises to run amok. Although the mob was still heavily involved in local numbers rackets until state lotteries underbid the rackets to the point of bankruptcy, casino gambling was largely confined to Nevada and Atlantic City. These places were regional outlets for the gambling urges of residents from nearby states; granted, the urges that they satisfied were often very destructive ones, but at least they confined much of the social decay attendant with gambling. Lawmakers in other states treated casino gambling as a depraved freak show best left to Nevada and New Jersey. They drafted their own states’ budgets and policies accordingly and were able to keep the moral hazard of legalized gambling from contaminating their states. The confinement of casino gambling to Nevada and Altantic City also ensured that some of the less compulsive gamblers gambled less frequently and more judiciously, to the benefit of their own families’ finances and stability.
    This was certainly not a perfect arrangement vis-a-vis casino gambling, and although many states avoided the moral hazards of running lotteries by declining to establish them, they inadvertently aggrandized the mob. But I’m afraid that what we have now is worse. Both lotteries and casinos have been allowed to expand cancerously, distorting hundreds of local and state economies. Moral hazard has likewise grown cancerously, with states advertising lotteries to the detriment of their own citizens and placing practically no limits on casino advertisements. These developments are a form of corruption not much better than mob numbers rackets. States have been lured into a race to the bottom in the hopes of capturing gambling revenue. In Pennsylvania, the fights over casino permitting and disbursement of gambling tax funds have been absolutely vicious and frequently litigious, costing taxpayers millions of dollars in attorneys’ fees so that the state can fight with its neighbors over table scraps. I truly believe that some controls need to be put on this free-for-all because, aside from Utah, everything I’ve seen of gambling policy in the United States appears perverse, wasteful, destructive and broken.

  255. wagelaborer February 10, 2010 at 1:57 am #

    They’re already armed.
    I can’t believe how much firepower people have.
    The thing is that the ruling class may be all about stirring up lowlife passions, but they’d better watch out.
    These people are angry and armed, and, as I pointed out earlier, just need to be pointed at targets and they’re ready to kill.
    Sure, they’ll probably go after the usual suspects, but some of them may wise up.

  256. AMR February 10, 2010 at 2:40 am #

    Fascists obviously make up part of the Tea Party movement, but not all of it. There is a sizeable libertarian element and a non-fascist conservative element, too. These factions have diametrically opposed beliefs about civil rights, civil liberties and the proper role of government, but they’ve joined the same coalition because politics makes strange bedfellows. Non-fascists joined the Tea Party movement for the same reason that many of them voted for George W. Bush: they consider the alternatives worse and are willing to put up with odious fascist saber-rattling as a compromise.
    The fascists in the Tea Party are winning over non-fascists in much the same way as George W. Bush did in 2004. John Kerry effectively conceded Florida, Ohio, Iowa and Missouri when he dissembled about his position on abortion. It was a minor miracle that he won Michigan and Pennsylvania after being so condescending and shifty. The upshot was that George W. Bush won the votes of millions of abortion opponents who were none too pleased with his warmongering, support for the death penalty and/or civil liberties record. Likewise, today’s Tea Parties contain people who are not looking to blow up Iran, resurrect Jim Crow or torture prisoners. What they are looking to do is reestablish fiscal discipline and put brakes on what they consider a rash, rushed attempt at health care reform. The only reason that they’re allying with jingoists, bigots and sadists is that they’re desperate for some kind of support.
    My great hope is that some combination of libertarians and sane Republicans will either drum the crazies and creeps out of the Tea Parties or establish a parallel movement to organize those seeking a civilized opposition to the Democratic majority. In either scenario, two important things could be achieved. First, the dangerous wingnuts could be exiled to the margins of public discourse, where they belong. Second, the Democratic majority could be forced to engage in a civilized, adult debate on health care and fiscal policy, a debate much more worthy of our democratic traditions than the sorry excuses for discourse that have become the norm in Washington.
    Demagogues such as Sarah Palin and Pat Robertson aren’t afraid to aggressively engage the Republican base. What this nation needs is for conservatives who aren’t beyond the pale, people like Jeb Hensarling and Mike Huckabee, to do the same.

  257. D R Lunsford February 10, 2010 at 7:28 am #

    There is no way to organize a society for the narcissist unless it involves polishing the mirror that enhances her reflection – and by “her” let us include both the labial and mammary-pneumatic self-admirer as well as the vein-pulsing, artfully tattooed faux-threatening baldy. We are a society of craven and venal women and pseudowomen, male and female alike, where brains and balls are measured in fractions, not integers.
    -drl

  258. Laura Louzader February 10, 2010 at 8:04 am #

    Yes, Vlad, some women are too damned stupid or substance-addled to use contraception, and I do NOT want these women giving birth to children who will grow up to continue the misery. Consider that about half the population is to the left of the I.Q. divide, and consider how many misbegotten children we are supporting on the welfare rolls now.
    I see these women,Vlad, and I see their children. I am reeling with nasua at the sight of pregnant thirteen-year-olds who can barely read at a third-grade level, and 20-year-old mothers of five who are pregnant once more and are so substance-addled they can’t remember how many men they’ve slept with in the past month. I was cast into a funk for a week when I met a 10-year-old girl on the train who was carrying the smallest baby I have ever seen- and it was HER baby! The baby was three months old and was less expressive and responsive than any newborn I have ever seen. What future does such a baby, born into such circumstances, have? And how on Earth could a humane society let a ten-year-old girl who really appeared to be more like eight in size and mental development, give birth?
    Most of all, a society that wants to survive as an advanced civilization will do everything possible to keep children from having children. A society of 14-year-old parents, and a society that encourages its weakest and dumbest to breed, will not survive.
    Abortions have saved many marriages, and many families from destitution. A wise woman, confronted with a surprise late-life pregnancy, say, after raising a houseful of kids, will do the right thing by her husband, her kids and herself, and do it quietly without burdening her husband with it. Do you tell your wife everything you do by way of making a living for your family?
    I’d rather have contraception and sterilization than abortion, which is a last resort. But our distaste does not make it murder. A 12-week-old embryo is NOT human yet even though it is on its way to being so.

  259. messianicdruid February 10, 2010 at 9:36 am #

    “Cuddletuffy, your post is the most intelligent and well-reasoned comment I have ever read on this site, in five years of following CFN.”
    I agree. Ron Paul was once called a fool in my presence, by a co-worker. I was so shocked I couldn’t speak. Never again.

  260. asoka February 10, 2010 at 12:07 pm #

    Before this Ron Paul adulation goes much further I’d just like to say great danger lies ahead, if Ron Paul runs for president again. Here are Ron Paul’s stands on some of the issues of the day:
    Abortion: Ron Paul’s “libertarianism” famously does not extend to the right of a woman to control her body. He introduced H.R. 1094, “to provide that human life shall be deemed to exist from conception.” He voted against overriding Bush’s veto of the stem cell bill.
    The Environment: Ron Paul may be a Republican, but he’s certainly not a Republican for Environmental Protection. That fine organization gave Paul a shameful 17 percent rating on its most recent Congressional Scorecard.
    He doesn’t fare much better in the eyes of the American Wilderness Coalition or the League of Conservation Voters.
    Paul’s abysmal record on the environment is driven in large measure by his love of sweet, sweet oil: in the 109th Congress alone, he voted to allow drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, to shield oil companies from MTBE contamination lawsuits, against increasing gas mileage standards, to allow new offshore drilling, and to stop making oil companies pay royalties to the government for drilling in the Gulf of Mexico.
    Par for the course for a man who called the Kyoto accords “bad science, bad economics and bad domestic policy” and “anti-Americanism masquerading as environmentalism.”
    Immigration: Paul marches in lock-step with the xenophobic right wing on immigration., calling a compromise immigration bill “a compromise of our laws, a compromise of our sovereignty, and a compromise of the Second Amendment.”
    Yet even the hardcore nativists in the immigration debate have been hesitant to support repealing birthright citizenship as enshrined in the Fourteenth Amendment, as Paul has done.
    His proposed Constitutional amendment, introduced as H. J. Res 46 on April 28, 2005, reads: “Any person born after the date of the ratification of this article to a mother and father, neither of whom is a citizen of the United States nor a person who owes permanent allegiance to the United States, shall not be a citizen of the United States or of any State solely by reason of birth in the United States.” Only four other Representatives, all Republicans, were willing to cosponsor this proposed amendment.
    Civil Rights: Paul doesn’t much care for ensuring your right to vote. Like when he voted with just 32 other members of Congress against reauthorizing the Voting Rights Act of 1965. Or when he voted for the bogus “Federal Election Integrity Act” voter suppression bill.
    But at least Ron Paul knows who’s responsible for racism in America: you are. “By encouraging Americans to adopt a group mentality,” he writes, “the advocates of so-called ‘diversity’ actually perpetuate racism. Their intense focus on race is inherently racist, because it views individuals only as members of racial groups.”
    So now you know. (Apparently, saying that “if you have ever been robbed by a black teen-aged male, you know how unbelievably fleet-footed they can be” is not racist, as long as it’s said with a proper appreciation for free-market economics.)
    Gay Rights: Paul’s rigid, uncompromising libertarianism leads him to take a number of positions that liberals find objectionable or even reprehensible but which should not in themselves be taken as ipso facto evidence of bigotry.
    His reflexive opposition to the Civil Rights Act of 1964, for example, is consistent with libertarian positions on federalism and the right of the individual to be free from government “coercion,” even if that means limiting the ability of minorities to seek employment and housing free from discrimination.
    Still, libertarian orthodoxy can’t fully explain Paul’s hostility to gay rights, and indeed to gay people in general.
    The Libertarian Party, which nominated Paul as its presidential candidate in 1988, has strongly opposed the so-called Defense of Marriage Act from the beginning; Paul supports it.
    While he opposed the “Federal Marriage Amendment” that would have outlawed gay marriage everywhere, he actually cosponsored the odious “Marriage Protection Act,” which would nonsensically bar federal courts from considering challenges to the Defense of Marriage Act, which is a federal law.
    “The definition of marriage–a union between a man and a woman–can be found in any dictionary,” he writes condescendingly. Despite Paul’s disingenuous claims that he is a “strict constitutionalist,” most legal scholars agree that the so-called Marriage Protection Act would be unconstitutional.
    You also will not find Paul listed among the 124 co-sponsors of the Military Readiness Enhancement Act of 2007, which would repeal the “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy barring gays and lesbians from serving in the military. Maybe he’s worried that they’ll take their “gay agenda” to far-flung corners of the world. He also doesn’t want gay people adopting children while they’re not serving in the military, either.
    On a personal level, we have this 1993 quote wherein Paul equates homosexuality with “sexual deviance.” And let’s not forget his wink-wink characterization of Hillary Clinton as “a far leftist with very close female friends”.
    Church-State Separation: From keeping “under God” in the Pledge of Allegiance to co-sponsoring the school prayer amendment to keeping the Ten Commandments on a courthouse lawn, this “strict constitutionalist” isn’t a big fan of the Constitutionally-mandated separation of church and state.
    And just in case the dirty liberals in the federal court system might take it into their heads to enforce the Establishment Clause, Mr. Strict Constitutionalist introduced a bill to bar the federal courts from hearing any such cases. No wonder James Dobson’s Family Research Council gave Paul a 75 percent rating on their 2005 scorecard.
    International Relations: Like crackpot paleoconservatives everywhere, Paul wants us out of the United Nations, which is just a bunch of un-American non-Americans out to destroy America.
    Darfur is also filled with non-Americans, so you certainly won’t find Ron Paul lifting a finger to stop the genocide, or even acknowledge that genocide is taking place. I guess that’s why he’s one of only four members of Congress to receive an “F” rating on Darfur from the Genocide Intervention Network.
    Peace and Military Issues: While Paul may oppose the Iraq war, he doesn’t seem to have much use for the men and women who have to fight it. Paul received an “F” rating from the Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America. It’s not easy to get an F from the IAVA; Paul shares this distinction with only six other members of the House. Even Asoka loves the veterans more than Ron Paul does.
    Taxes: Do we even need to go into this one? If you audaciously believe that we need a progressive system of taxation in this country, here’s what Ron Paul thinks of you:
    Worker rights: Voted to defund OSHA’s ergonomics rules. Voted against increasing mine safety standards. Hates unions.
    Campaign finance reform: Opposes.
    Social Security and Medicare: Repeats the Republicans’ lies about the programs’ solvency.
    Consumer protection: Voted for the bankruptcy bill. Voted to make it harder to file class-action lawsuits.
    Universal health care: don’t make me laugh.
    Privatizing everything: the Internets are not large enough to hold all the citations.
    Taxes: Do we even need to go into this one? If you audaciously believe that we need a progressive system of taxation in this country, here’s what Ron Paul thinks of you:
    “We have exactly the kind of steeply progressive tax system championed by Karl Marx.”

  261. Cash February 10, 2010 at 12:21 pm #

    I’m not saying people should switch off their brains.
    What I want to know is why so many people automatically take sides against their own country and not just in wartime.
    I suspect it’s a cultural phenomenon, that somehow the idea took root that one is somehow more intelligent, more enlightened, on a higher moral plane if they show contempt for their own country and especially if they take the side of avowed enemies. Why so much animosity towards your own country?
    I think it might be rooted in a monumental superiority complex. Maybe some people really think they are a superior breed (ie caucasian/Anglo/Northern European) and therefore better endowed intellectually and morally as compared to what they see as lesser men. As a consequence they hold their own country and people to standards they wouldn’t dream of applying to other races/nationalities/ethnicities.
    But more than that, they think they are safe, that they can afford to take sides against their own country because, while the US can be scratched and dented, it can’t be taken down. There is no other people or power on earth that has the strength to do that or so they think.
    Abu Graib was not a high point in the history of the US Army. But a bunch of men standing naked wearing panties on their heads is not on a par with Auschwitz. You’d never know it though from American press coverage and editorializing.
    Having said all this, this is not just an American phenom. In the last national elections in Canada you should have heard what Liberal Party election ads said about our own military, who by the way, the Liberals sent to fight in Afghanistan. It was shocking, it might even have furrowed brows of American liberals. So if it’s any consolation while you guys are swirling round the toilet bowl, you have company, we’re swirling with you.

  262. cuddletuffy February 10, 2010 at 12:26 pm #

    Wagelaborer,
    Thank you for taking time to reply. To be clear, I don’t have anything confused.
    I tend to choose my words carefully. At one point I mention the group with the intellectual void and idealogical dilemma as the, “disenfranchised left.” The War Party apparatchiks appearing on TV are hardly disenfranchised.
    It sounds like your experience is almost utopian. You are fortunate enough to keep company such that words like: right; left; conservative; liberal are not relevant. We should all be so lucky.
    The people I know who identify as liberal or leftist or progressive are frightened into the lap of the Democratic wing of the War Party because they believe the narratives of: empire veiled as humanitarian interventions; the free market is evil and ruined the economy; all Republicans and “right-wingers” are evil and must be opposed unthinkingly; things were great until GW Bush came into power; the economy under Clinton was real growth and not another Fed interest-rate and Wall St. greased artificial boom; we are rich and everything will be okay once we start taxing the rich again; gay marriage is the key priority that if we solve it, all will finally be free; and on and on and on …
    Most importantly they do not see the key conundrum in their ideology that I mentioned in my original post. They are most of the people I know. They are also so afraid of losing what they have, that they would rather believe that people like Ron Paul, who honestly say that we must acknowledge and face our poverty before we can produce and save and increase our real wealth again, are kooks and therefore all people who agree with some portion of their key tenants are too.
    These are the people who vote for Change with Hope in their hearts. Who spend hours month and year upon month and year on petitions for gay marriage while going silent on drone bombings and moving Guantanamo to the heart of the, “Homeland.” Who think that homeownership is a natural right and that it is okay to make all of society a co-signer on their no-doc liar loans. Because, you see, if they lose the title on their home, they’ll be homeless forever. Because, you see, once you have owned a home, you can never rent again; Who believe that the theft of 2008-2009 that transferred all of the derivatives onto the taxpayers backs was necessary to keep our economy going; who believe we will not occupy Iraq; who were against war when the bad guy in the black hat was in charge, but find it okay when their good guy continues and even does more of it; who think that bestowing a Nobel Peace Prize on a war-monger would actually help him achieve peace; Who believe that their guy has a master plan that he is going to spring upon us after he has gathered all of his enemies at the heart of his administration so he can control them and force them to do his bidding. And on and on and on …
    These aren’t my projections onto people. These are based on conversations with people I know and love. They believe a narrative that is false. They vote, but they vote unwittingly for the very people who are directly opposed to their interest. They believe that they are informed, educated, caring and tend to see, “right-wingers”, as rabid, stupid, hateful … They vote, but they are disenfranchised because they don’t understand basic economics and therefore don’t understand just how far gone our democratic republic is and that it wasn’t taken from them, as much as they eagerly help hand it away to the imperial state.
    This also highlights the problem I have with the rural/urban narrative that the blind anti-TeaBagger ranting reinforces. The urban liberals generally speaking aren’t any less disillusioned, uninformed, hypocritical and quite frankly hateful then their partisan counterparts. The oligarchs celebrate over another round of caviar as the partisans hurl their cheese-doodles and foodie menus at each other.
    History has been re-written by the state. I remember being taught that LBJ and the Great Society were monumental achievements and that the conservative movement undermined it.
    That couldn’t be a bigger lie. I think if disenfranchised liberals just analyzed LBJ’s presidency objectively they would understand how badly they have been used and abused by the establishment. He is the one who started stealing from Social Security to pay for wars. He is the one who threw into overdrive the inflation and deficit spending to pay for Guns abroad and Butter at home to quell social unrest caused by his warmongering and profligate theft from the poor and productive to feed the military beast. Martin Luther King new this and spoke out against the theft of war. Who was in charge when he was silenced? The inflation also further stole from Social Security. Every succeeding emperor has been only too happy to carry on with his precedent. The Republicans never wanted to get rid of the welfare state any more than Diane Feinstein and her husband want to get rid of the warfare state. You must know that.
    God willing, more and more people will come to figure it out by doing a bit more reading on their own.

  263. Cash February 10, 2010 at 12:43 pm #

    This sounds like eugenics but I know what you’re saying about indiscriminate copulation and heedless child bearing but I think the solution is in societal values and constraints, not in aborting. The problem is the overly liberal, permissive anything goes attitudes. I think there is a male/female divide on the issue because obviously females bear the consequences of sex and pregnancy much more than males.
    I’m with Bill Clinton on this. You would likely know this, he said that in his opinion abortion should be safe, legal and rare.
    Women talk a lot about “choice”. There are many choices to be made ie to marry or not, to use contraception or not, to have sex or not etc. This, after all, is not Saudi Arabia, woman do make these choices. But when a woman is pregnant the choices have all been made. In our sex soaked society it can’t possibly be a mystery as to where babies come from. Plus, control what teenage kids do, where they are at and setting out the non-negotiable law wrt certain behaviours.
    I would have more sympathy with the “pro choice” stance if contraception weren’t so easily available and if there weren’t 30 abortions for evey 100 live births (or so I’ve heard). That makes it sound like abortion is being used as contraception.
    To my own unenlightened mind it’s a slippery slope, first abortion, then late term abortion, then we start going easy on infanticide because after all doesn’t a woman have a right to choose? And when is a human a human anyway?

  264. Qshtik February 10, 2010 at 12:48 pm #

    “Before this Ron Paul adulation goes much further I’d just like to say great danger lies ahead, if Ron Paul runs for president again.”
    ==========================
    I refuse to read another copy-and-paste of this length from Asoka. Regardless of what it says, I like Ron Paul.
    But that is neither here nor there. Asoka can rest assured that RP will never be president … not telegenic enough and has a wimpy voice. A simple, unfortunate fact.

  265. asoka February 10, 2010 at 1:02 pm #

    Qshtik, didn’t you just say a while back that you would bet New Mexico doesn’t move its money from banks to credit unions?
    Qshtik copy/paste alert:
    “New Mexico’s House of Representatives voted Monday to pass a bill that allows the state to move $2 billion – $5 billion of state funds to credit unions and small banks.
    The municipal funds bill was approved 65-0, and is subject to a vote by New Mexico’s Senate. Governor Bill Richardson told the bill’s sponsor that he supports the legislation.”
    You are doing a great job at tending to minutiae. But neither you nor Ron Paul have economic cred.

  266. trippticket February 10, 2010 at 1:18 pm #

    “Herding takes up alot of space.”
    One of these days, someone is going to put the things I talk about together in their brain, and it might just make sense.
    Let’s start with specialization and reductionism for today. We’ve talked before about New Zealand’s timber and sheep producing prowess. We’ve talked about agroforestry before. And now we’ve talked about sequestering atmospheric carbon en masse by mob-grazing cattle, enriching pastoral acreage and doing the climate a favor in the process.
    These are not separate ventures. All of this can be done in the same space. Believe it or not, modern reductionist agronomics is NOT the most efficient way to produce food. It’s the most efficient way to harvest and market more food with less human involvement. The same acre that produces #2 field corn for Cheez Doodles and Hohos could produce a varied enough diet to support an entire human family. I’ve got older friends with far more experience than I have in the permaculture game doing it.
    Wage’s problem with my multi-planting system was that branches would overlap. OK. Pruners? Fruit trees have to be pruned to produce efficiently anyway. Why not prune to enjoy 4 varieties over a 2 month season instead of just one for 2 or 3 weeks. Or is that just too weird?
    As brilliant as some of you folks are, you remind me of ancient Anasazi populations dying in their homes because the resources they depended on were gone. They couldn’t build houses because there was no timber, when 1000 miles to the south in Mexico, the indigenous populations were building homes WITHOUT timber.
    One of these days we should probably stop lamenting our inability to continue doing things the exact same way we’ve always done them, (realizing of course that this lifestyle was dragging us toward extinction), and open our minds to some radically innovative ways to live.
    Open ranging livestock worked when the ecosystem was conducive to such an arrangement. Maybe it doesn’t work now. Doesn’t mean we can’t, or even shouldn’t, eat beef. Just means we need to be more innovative, and return to treating Nature as an elder to be consulted, instead of an enemy to be subdued.
    Instead of rebuilding the levies to be stronger, we need to take them down and see how Nature deals with hurricanes and seasonal floods. If that means moving to land ABOVE SEALEVEL, then maybe that’s not such a bad thing to do.
    Albert Einstein said, ‘we cannot solve our problems with the same thinking that created them.’ For all the bluster from semi-intelligent people on this blog, truly novel ideas are pretty hard to come by.

  267. Qshtik February 10, 2010 at 1:23 pm #

    “Qshtik, didn’t you just say a while back that you would bet New Mexico doesn’t move its money from banks to credit unions?”
    =========================
    Yes I did … and if/when the money moves I will be the first to admit I was wrong. We have till 12/31/10 to see how this plays out.
    BTW my remark about RP has nothing to do with economic cred … it has to do with appearances, that lowliest of driving forces so important in this age. Another gentleman’s bet … RP will not be elected president in 2012. Not even close.

  268. cuddletuffy February 10, 2010 at 1:37 pm #

    Asoka, from every post I’ve ever seen on here, doesn’t do much thinking of his/her own. I hope that is the problem as it is far more encouraging than other alternative explanations of his/her posts. Allow me to elaborate:
    It is standard to claim that Ron Paul is a racist, against the environment and the other litany of charges this article proclaims. These articles amount to slander. We know what slander is. It is a sign of fear that actually taking on the ideas through intellectually honest and rigorous discipline would cause you to lose the argument.
    I would believe all that stuff if I had never listened to interviews with him, read his books, read the books of the people who inspire his ideas … …
    His ideas and the ideas of libertarianism are quite consistent with supporting civil rights.
    Let’s take just a couple of issues – major issues. The first is the War On Drugs. It is well-established that this government campaign of tyranny is extremely racist. If white America were as decimated by this campaign of tyranny as black America has been, it would not have lasted two years much less 4 decades and counting.
    Ron Paul openly and ardently opposes the War On Drugs. He doesn’t do so on the grounds of racism, but rather on the grounds that all men are created equal with certain inalienable rights, the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. The War On Drugs violently violates those natural rights of men equally for all victims of its tyranny.
    Let us take the welfare state. Would Asoka or any liberal go and live in a housing project? Would they feel safe if they were African American living in Compton just because there is civil rights legislation? The welfare system, (the joint system of social welfare, imperial militarism, central bank induced inflation), that Ron Paul has always opposed has demonstrably made the poor poorer. Worst of all, it hasn’t made people free. People who are dependent are not free. The welfare state has failed because it has made too many people dependent. The goal is independence, self-sufficiency. Not only that, but the imperial welfare state hasn’t only helped to keep the poor poor, but it has robbed the wealth of countless generations and destroyed the middle class. Don’t believe me? Who really thinks they will see all of their Social Security benefits? Who will see their government pension in real terms? Whose 401K’s are tied up in the paper money system of over-inflated asset values that ultimately will be properly valued, downward significantly, by the market? Whose dollar denominated savings have been wiped out by the compounding inflation since 1913?
    Ron Paul is telling us that the real root of poverty that absolutely kills the poor and the greatest destroyer of the middle and merchant class is inflation that is directly caused by the central banks.
    I could go on about abortion, gay marriage and other issues of civil liberty. But this isn’t the forum for it. It is up to Asoka to be honest and actually listen to what Ron Paul has to say about these issues and how and who should address them. I don’t personally agree with his personal views on these matters, but I can’t argue with his ideas for how they should be addressed in society.
    I am not a Ron Paul partisan. But he makes a great example of how we can’t allow slander to stop us from listening to ideas that have integrity and are thought out with a thorough understanding of economics and human nature. Who else on the political landscape is doing this? Who else isn’t a hypocrite? Maybe Kucinich and Gravel. But I don’t think their economic ideology fits the reality of our financial state of insolvency.
    Asoka fears a Ron Paul presidency. It seems then that what Asoka fears is that the War On Drugs would end today, all of our foreign military bases would close, our foreign wars would end tomorrow, our military budget would be slashed in half at a minimum, the imperial executive would be renounced and ended, the CIA would be significantly reduced if not abolished, the Department of Homeland Security would close tomorrow, we would be able to determine the real value of money, property and assets, we would begin to pay down our debts, the debt saturated lenders and borrowers would have to be the sole recipients of the consequences of their irresponsible behavior and we would begin to ween ourselves off of dependency on a violent central state. I suspect that he would even try to recoup some of the money stolen by the military industrial complex from Social Security … by using the fraud laws to prosecute the theft of those funds to gift to the MIC over the decades. There must be a clear paper trail the prosecution could use.
    It is terribly sad that this is the future that Asoka fears. It says a lot.

  269. Urban_Underclass February 10, 2010 at 1:39 pm #

    Excellent post Mr.K, I agree with every word.

  270. trippticket February 10, 2010 at 1:40 pm #

    “Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself.” —Milton Friedman
    Milton Friedman obviously wasn’t a big picture guy. Capitalism and the free market are expansionary models. They don’t work without growth.
    The laws of physics, on the other hand, might suggest that perpetual growth is not only impossible, but undesirable. If athlete’s foot fungus multiplied without check, where would that leave the NBA? The planet feels the same way about humans.
    Turkleton very succinctly pointed out to me yesterday that human populations ebb and flow with resource availability, just like any other biological population. As if an ecologist wouldn’t know that. But certainly a valid point.
    Free market capitalism worked when the large-scale energetics environment allowed it to. But it won’t work in a contractionary model.
    It’s not a lefty, commie, hate on capitalism. It’s how the laws of Nature work. People who argue for the preservation of capitalism, and thereby expansion, are probably more out of touch with physics, economics, and the natural world than anyone else here.
    When it finally dawns on you that continuing on this free market path is leading to certain extinction for Homo sapiens, then maybe you’ll get serious about what really has to be done.

  271. Laura Louzader February 10, 2010 at 1:43 pm #

    The “slippery slope” argument has been used often, but there is really no logical progression from a trimester to a late term, let alone to infanticide.
    By the middle of the second term, when the embryo has become a human baby and is capable of surviving outside a woman’s womb, it is mostly easier on the mother to deliver the baby than it is to abort it, as you must go through something resembling a normal delivery to abort. There is no sense in it, and it is almost never better for the mother. Most people are properly appalled at the thought of late term abortions, and they are only done if they are medically necessary, such as when a baby has a condition such as the lack of a brainstem, in which case it would die the moment it is born, or the baby is so defective in other respects (no heart, no lungs, or other conditions too bizarre and deforming to describe), that it has no chance at life at all.
    Abortion is only done at the point of birth when the choice must be made between saving the life of the mother or saving that of the baby. In that case, the mother’s is usually priority. Nobody wants to have to make this choice but sometimes it must be made.
    Lastly, there is never justification for infanticide. The baby is absolutely an independent being outside of his mother’s body. There is never a medical justification for infanticide, even though, unfortunately, there may be, in a future of limited medical care and shrinking resources, “triage” of all people whose prognosis is so poor that scarce resources cannot be spared to extend their lives, but must be allocated to those who have the best prospects. In the past, there certainly was, especially in the days before medical practitioners were required to document and justify every single procedure and decision.
    In a future severely constrained by the lack of resources, that can only support half the current population, I suspect that more and more people, from old age down to infancy, will be “triaged” as not having enough of a chance at life and/or health to justify the allocation of scarce resources to saving and rehabilitating them. This is a very scary thought. I do not like it and I believe we should make every effort to save each human life, and do everything possible to help those who want to live, stay alive. But it might not be possible. There might not any longer be things like a half-dozen blood transfusions to extend the life of a 78-year-old who has been comatose for 2 months, or for a lovely 5-year old who is afflicted with, say, terminal leukemia. And as the poverty rate increases, there will be less and less medical care available to the poor- they will be the first “triaged” through the inability to pay.
    In other words, the human race will be culled brutally and randomly in the event that our resources shrink drastically. It will be very random and very brutal, and take place on a mass scale. And we will have no control over it. Would it be better to do it before birth, according to the desires of the parents who bear the responsibility, and who know their own capabilities, or after, by the usual devices- disease, crime, war, starvation, exposure, lack of medical care? Might it be better to let individual women select themselves out of the process, relatively painlessly, or is it better to let nature take its course, and let nature do the selecting the painful way?

  272. messianicdruid February 10, 2010 at 1:51 pm #

    “I think there is a male/female divide on the issue because obviously females bear the consequences of sex and pregnancy much more than males.”
    Yes, the fathers, brothers, uncles of the females have to provide some consequences for sex with their daughters, sisters and nieces, and to have enough self-control and respect for the daughters, sisters and nieces of their neighbors to refrain from extra-marital copulation themselves. It’s called community. Until the men begin to act like men it won’t change.

  273. wagelaborer February 10, 2010 at 1:58 pm #

    Hey, Laura, I don’t mean to leave you out there alone, battling the self-righteous males about abortion.
    I see the same people you do. Well, different town, same story.
    Vlad and his ilk always have the same solution to unwanted births – keep your legs closed. There are now 6.8 billion people on the planet. How’s that working? Plus, of course, you can get pregnant with your legs closed.
    It is indeed absurd to sentence a stupid or irresponsible person to a baby as a punishment.
    Why would you want the stupid and irresponsible to produce citizens of your country?
    I know two women who are on their 8th and 9th children. Both are not only too irresponsible to use birth control, they have their children taken away from by DCFS. Great.
    What the anti-abortion crusaders have done is convince girls and women that all they have to do to be a mother is produce the infant. Then their duty is done.
    Raise it? That’s for grandma, auntie, boyfriend (excuse me, fiance) or anyone they can corral.
    My home town newspaper recently ran a glowing article on the mother and father of one of the girls. They are raising most of her kids. The city paid for a fence to keep them out of the street. They were presented as “hometown heroes” for stepping up and raising the children, some of them handicapped. I was not impressed. They are not heroes for producing a kid that pops babies out every year or so. And the “handicaps”? Some of the older ones have already done time in mental institutions.
    The other grandmother doesn’t get the kids. One time I asked her why she didn’t raise her own kids not to fight each other, and she said, and I quote, “Don’t blame me. I didn’t raise them. Blame DCFS”.
    Republicans drive themselves into perverted frenzies fantasizing about criminals raping, torturing and murdering their children. And fantasizing about the revenge they will take. Kind of a pre-left behind rapture.
    I don’t understand why they don’t just support the concept of every child born being a wanted child, with parents who want to nurture and love them.
    Wouldn’t it be better to have a society made up of loved people? Why force unwanted children to be born and then finance police, courts and prisons to lock them in when they reach age?
    Vlad and his ilk don’t live in the real world, where people have unprotected sex. And don’t blame it on Western lack of morals. There are billions more in non-western countries.
    It’s a biological urge. It can’t be controlled with morals. Witness Bristol Palin.

  274. ozone February 10, 2010 at 2:09 pm #

    C-T sez: “The people I know who identify as liberal or leftist or progressive are frightened into the lap of the Democratic wing of the War Party because they believe the narratives of: empire veiled as humanitarian interventions; the free market is evil and ruined the economy; all Republicans and “right-wingers” are evil and must be opposed unthinkingly; things were great until GW Bush came into power; the economy under Clinton was real growth and not another Fed interest-rate and Wall St. greased artificial boom; we are rich and everything will be okay once we start taxing the rich again; gay marriage is the key priority that if we solve it, all will finally be free; and on and on and on …”
    Well, ya don’t know ME, then (as a self-identified “liberal realist”). ;o)
    BTW, Obama is not in any way, shape, or form a liberal. (I looked at his RECORD and certainly couldn’t vote for a “pretty decent actor”. Reagan was a “lousy actor”, IMO, and look at what was perpetrated under his “guidance”.) Quite simply: he’s a corporatist, and a purveyor of false hopes. This is his “purpose”; to delay realistic decisions by realistic people, until the neo-fascists that ARE the corporate megalomaniacs oversee the collapse and final militaristic takeover of an impoverished and demoralized America.
    …but… events do have a way of throwing the best-laid plans into FUBAR status. I surely sense a large flock of black swans drawing nigh that aren’t showing up on the radars of the oligarchy. So, yeah, I’ll throw in my lot with those who KNOW the party’s over, but I’ll never give up the idea of a common weal.

  275. wagelaborer February 10, 2010 at 2:20 pm #

    Babies aren’t killed at birth, Vlad. I don’t know where you get that.
    It is estimated that 30% of fertilized eggs are spontaneously aborted, you know, where “God” does it.
    I invite you to pick through the products of conception, as even the craziest right wing Christian doctors call them, and find the “baby”.
    I know two women who were anti-abortion enough to give babies up for adoption. Both aborted the next pregnancies. One, who was forced at age 16 by her mother to carry to term and give it up, was driven to the clinic by her mother to have the abortion the next time.
    You think it’s easy to give a child up for adoption? That just shows how you don’t live in the real world.
    The most abusive of parents keep and raise their children. They will tell you how much they love them over the child’s dead body. And I mean literally dead body.
    Love is not enough. This society does not support child rearing in anyway.

  276. Laura Louzader February 10, 2010 at 2:31 pm #

    You said it well, Wage Laborer.
    I could add that most societies, especially those run by patriarchal religions, make laws and rules pertaining to contraception and reproduction that seem to me specifically designed to make it possible for “alpha” males to reproduce as much as they can without any responsibility for the children they father, while the poorest and most vulnerable women have to reproduce over and over,in the absence of decent living conditions or health care, even if their kids are born on the sidewalks and end up shot to death at the age of 4 for trying to steal a meal from a foodstall.
    It is folly to allow High “R” people to dictate the conditions of reproduction at the expense of the High “C” people who actually bear the children and bear 90% of the responsibility for their care. Men and women differ vastly in their reproductive strategies- men tend to be High-reproduction, low-care, which means that all they want is to impregnate as many females as possible, and so desire to make sure that those pregnancies will stick.
    In other words, men really do not have the concern for each and every one of their children that women do. They only want to father as many of them as possible, and care little what becomes of those born to mothers they used for sex once. That is why a feudal lord of the past, or an antebellum slave owner, could father countless kids upon the bodies of peasant or slave women and allow those kids to be relegated to a life of serfdom or slavery, and the lack of control over the process by the hapless women involved made it possible for these men to so behave.
    Women, on the other hand, are high-care, low-reproduction. Since pregnancy, childbirth, and child care are very costly and depleting for us, and the most children most women can mother is 5 or so, and ideally fewer, we tend to want to have small numbers of children who have the best possible chance of survival. It is simply too painful to go through 5 or 8 or more pregnancies and childbirths and wreck your health in the process, just to see half of your progeny die before maturity to illness, violence, and other killers that you could have shielded your children from if only you’d had fewer of them. And most people in this country are in such economic circumstances that the diff between 2 kids and 8 kids is the difference between a tidy, well-ordered little family of well-cared for kids who grow up to finish school and become productive citizens, and a family of 8 kids who end up getting shot down in gang wars, dying of preventable illnesses, or end up in prison or mental institutions- all because mom and dad did not have the resources to house that many kids in a decent neighborhood, provide for their schooling and timely medical care, or deal with their special problems.
    The High-Reproduction method of managing reproduction leads to overpopulation, and brutal, short lives for 80% of the population. The High Care method of reproduction makes civilized life possible, and spreads the benefits of civilization to a higher percentage of the population while maintaining our numbers at sustainable levels. What kind of society do we really want to be?

  277. asoka February 10, 2010 at 2:38 pm #

    cuddletuffy said: “It is up to Asoka to be honest and actually listen to what Ron Paul has to say about these issues and how and who should address them.”
    Not only have I listened to Ron Paul, and read his newsletters with racist rants, I cited for you actual legislation Ron Paul has sponsored and gave you the HR numbers.
    I am not just offering my opinion. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. I am offering facts.
    Ron Paul’s position on issues is substantiated by the public record; by legislation Ron Paul has authored or sponsored or voted for or against.

  278. asia February 10, 2010 at 2:41 pm #

    with rail , air and welfare Sweden doesnt have
    ‘borders’ it has Boarders.
    yes it has natural geographic boundaries.
    otherwise a brilliant post. but my reposte is even better.

  279. asia February 10, 2010 at 2:44 pm #

    ‘ But on the subject of poor or rural Whites, the Truth comes out’
    o yes! The educated liberal white must have scape goats. someone here pointed out JK dislike of female politicians.
    ‘poor or rural Whites’..
    A BETTER TAKE MIGHT BE ‘ CONSERVATIVES, ILL EDUCATED, CHRISTIAN.’whites born in the usa..apologies to bruce springsteen.

  280. asia February 10, 2010 at 2:45 pm #

    ‘Our prisons and slums are full of people who wish like hell their mothers hadn’t given birth to them’
    i say yr fullashit….if their lots so tough why havent they committed the big ‘ S’?

  281. asoka February 10, 2010 at 2:46 pm #

    The right to vote is a basic right in a democracy.
    Ron Paul tried to prevent me from having the right to vote in 1965.
    Ron Paul voted with just 32 other members of Congress against reauthorizing the Voting Rights Act of 1965. And he voted for the bogus “Federal Election Integrity Act” voter suppression bill.
    It is not slander to point out Ron Paul’s public record.
    The dude is bad news. Xenophobic and racist and against equal rights for gays.

  282. diogen February 10, 2010 at 2:58 pm #

    Laura and Wage, there’s nothing you can say regarding abortion, never mind how reasonable and well-reasoned, that will convince the opponents of abortion to question their dogma, let alone change it. See, for many (perhaps most) of them it’s not about morality or ethics, it’s about identity politics. Abortion is probably the only issue that diverse groups opposed to liberal/left/progressive ideas share in common, and this is their source of identity and righteousness (sp?). They’re not vocal about the conditions leading to children’s death after birth due to poverty, lack of medical care, military collateral damage, etc. Abortion is their arm-band of being different and distinct from the despised atheists and liberals and feminists. Ironic, because folks like Vlad cringe at the idea, justifiably in my mind, of 10-kid minority/poor/immigrant families breeding future welfare recipients or non-mainstream non-white Americans. And yet — they would rather see more unneeded/unwanted kids and exploding population rather than agree with abortion-right supporters. For most abortion opponents this is not a rationally-made belief decision, it’s us-vs.-them issue, and “God is on our side” mentality. I’m sure Vlad is gratified to see millions of new black babies born to welfare mothers, or white babies born to low-IQ white folks who then must rely on the GOVERNMENT to keep them alive. Not.

  283. Laura Louzader February 10, 2010 at 3:03 pm #

    Look at the rates for suicide and mental illness- prison populations and those living in deep poverty tend to have rates twice the general population.
    Numerous studies of young gang members have noted that these young men seem to place a very small value on their own lives and are usually convinced that they’re not going to make it past the age of 20.
    I have met some of these people. I have also encountered dozens of young women with severe mental health problems living on the streets while in the advanced stages of pregnancy- and I don’t see any among the “pro-life”, or Pro-Living-Death, crowd stepping up to take care of them and their children.
    When I see the members of the Pro-Living-Death mob A)adopt the tens of thousands of older, ill, or mentally or physically disabled children languishing in our brutal child welfare system and being passed from one foster home to another,B. provide homes and financial assistance and ongoing support for the tens of thousands of mentally challenged young girls, many far underage, who are producing the largest numbers of badly-mothered out-of-wedlock children, then I’ll be convinced that they are truly “pro-life”.

  284. asia February 10, 2010 at 3:03 pm #

    LA…..a nitemare as an annexation of Mexico. and that populations gone from 10 million[1900] to 150 million [theren here]…with another 100 million expected..on both sides of the Un border.
    listened to KCRW this AM. a college radio station that was taken over by ruth seymore. students from santa monica college not welcome [crw stands for college radio workshop].
    from mexico they were talking how the SECOND source of $ after OIL is US $ from illegals [ and legals] here and how even with the depression here the illegals here dont wanna return El Southe.
    KCRW did what it could to put a happy face on this. Oh how i hate Ruth Seymore.

  285. Qshtik February 10, 2010 at 3:04 pm #

    “Ron Paul tried to prevent me from having the right to vote in 1965.”
    ========================
    Well, if he did, good for him because you were only 15-16 years old in 1965.

  286. wagelaborer February 10, 2010 at 3:05 pm #

    To riff further on one of your comments – why is Barack Obama called “Black”? His mother was white, he was raised by white people, he went to white schools.
    It’s because in this country, we have the “one drop” rule – one drop of black blood makes you black.
    That is so white slaveowners could father children with slaves and sell their own offspring.
    How convenient.
    And it makes it just a tad hypocritical for whites to criticize absent black fathers today.
    Of course, I’m not condoning absent fathers. Just pointing out the hypocrisy.

  287. asia February 10, 2010 at 3:05 pm #

    thanks!

  288. asia February 10, 2010 at 3:10 pm #

    The wallStJournal had an article, based in a huge lie, that the reason Obama ‘matters’ is hes our first prez without euro blood in him!
    ‘absent black fathers’?…MOST BLACKS IN US DONT MARRY BEFORE HAVING CHLDREN..so the dads really arent ‘ absent’. and black females have abortions at 2 or 3x the rate whites do. blame PP who has their obortuarys in black neighborhoods.
    sanger designed PP as eugenics, did ya know that?

  289. oiligarch February 10, 2010 at 3:14 pm #

    It is disgraceful how our “USA-McCulture” has commodified our children. Our children are heavily targeted by the corpseorations. The corpseorations are extracting as much wealth out of our children as they possibly can; demolishing their physical and mental well-being in the sordid process of exploitation. “USA-McCulture” is a disease process similar to cancer.

  290. Vlad Krandz February 10, 2010 at 3:19 pm #

    Yes, some babies are better than others because some people are genetically superior. That’s why Margaret Sanger wanted to put the clinics near Black Neighborhoods. Yes, it’s morally objectionable, but Blacks shouldn’t be living amongst us to begin with. That’s the answer to that problem. Let them figure out their own policy rather than foisting their unwanted little baggage on us. Haitian or so called American.
    Our tragedy is the death of generations of White Children – often done in by women who just didn’t want to take the time to do what’s right. And as for the retards – yeah, it would be great to find a way to make them stop. How about voluntary sterilazation for cash? Alot of these people would take it since they are very fixated on short term gratification.

  291. Vlad Krandz February 10, 2010 at 3:23 pm #

    A fetus is a baby. Just because it can’t live on its own yet is no reason to dehumanize him or her. Old people can’t either. Or people in comas.
    I agree that killing the baby early on is much kinder than waiting until they can feel pain. In late term abortions, the baby tries to defend itself.
    The most dangerous environment on Earth: the mother’s womb. Truly we live in a dark age.

  292. diogen February 10, 2010 at 3:26 pm #

    “some people are genetically superior”
    And who defines what that means? Some folks might think that 7-foot black basketball players are genetically superior to you, what do you think? Or super-high IQ asians and jews are superior to you, what would you say about that? Or beautiful Brazilian/Argentinian women of mixed race superior to some plain-looking white women, your thoughts on that?

  293. asoka February 10, 2010 at 3:42 pm #

    ASOKA: “Ron Paul tried to prevent me from having the right to vote in 1965.”
    ========================
    QSTIK: Well, if he did, good for him because you were only 15-16 years old in 1965.”
    ===========
    ASOKA: My bad. The re-authorization vote, when Ron Paul voted against renewal of the Voting Rights Act of 1965, took place in 2006.

  294. wagelaborer February 10, 2010 at 4:01 pm #

    Back to patriotism.
    It’s not a football game. You don’t root for your own team while it tortures and murders, just because it’s your team. Jeez.
    I love my country, but not the psychopaths who are taken it over and are destroying it.
    I don’t love my country more than I love the planet. First I’m an Earth citizen, then an American.
    I don’t think that it’s OK to drop depleted uranium weapons, as long as it’s not in my backyard. (Although, ironically, they’re made in my backyard).
    I like some things about Americans the best, such as friendliness, tolerance and the habit of standing in line instead of pushing their way to the front.
    But- that doesn’t mean I think it’s OK to kill people just because they’re not American.
    Why is this so hard to understand?

  295. asoka February 10, 2010 at 4:07 pm #

    wagelaborer said: “First I’m an Earth citizen, then an American.”
    Well said.
    Personally I am fond of the galaxy. But I believe in freedom of intergalactic movement and I’m more than willing to share the Milky Way.
    Just as I believe in freedom of movement on the Planet Earth (I want no borders) and welcome all the immigrants, legal or illegal, who want to come here. Net economic gain. More brains the better.

  296. wagelaborer February 10, 2010 at 4:15 pm #

    Did you think you are making an outrageous proposal?
    I have brought this plan up to all kinds of people, right wing and left wing, and most people support it.
    I say we pay people for voluntary sterilization, male or female.
    Responsible people do it anyway. Why shouldn’t they be rewarded?
    Irresponsible people would have an incentive to do it. I’ll bet the teenagers with three kids already would be thrilled to have some cash to stop.
    Society would be much better off with paying a one-time cash reward than in paying years of welfare, prisons, medical care, etc.
    We have too many people here. We need to voluntarily cut back.
    It is wrong to give any bureaucracy the power to decide who should reproduce. But rewarding voluntary sterilization is a win-win solution.

  297. wagelaborer February 10, 2010 at 4:18 pm #

    Did you see the new National Geographic?
    It has absolutely gorgeous pictures of neighboring galaxies.
    Our universe is a wondrous place and our planet is a jewel floating in it.
    To destroy it is criminal and I don’t care whether the criminals were born inside the same artificial boundaries as me or not.

  298. dale February 10, 2010 at 4:18 pm #

    “It is wrong to give any bureaucracy the power to decide who should reproduce. But rewarding voluntary sterilization is a win-win solution.”
    ==================================
    Especially if Sarah Pain volunteers.

  299. asoka February 10, 2010 at 4:22 pm #

    MICHELLE OBAMA INTERVIEWED ABOUT PALIN
    Michelle Obama added, when pressed on Palin again, “I think it’s wonderful to have strong female voices out there, but I don’t know her.”
    On the Tea Party movement, Michelle Obama was similarly restrained. “I’m focused on what’s in front of me, and right now that’s ending childhood obesity in a generation,” she said. “I try to limit my intake to things that I can control. I wanna stay focused on work rather than…other things.”

    This timidity and restraint is from the same woman who Republicans were claiming was divisive because of her thesis at Princeton. They said her thesis proves she sees the world through a race-based prism and would be a divisive first lady.
    Michelle’s organic garden, work with military families, and decorous restraint in all things have proven that Republican fears were ill-founded.
    A very, very long way from the Weimar Republic.

  300. wagelaborer February 10, 2010 at 4:39 pm #

    Earlier commenters mentioned Joe Bageant’s take on the State of the Union speech. Here’s a quote from it about Michelle’s crusade
    “I want to acknowledge our first lady, Michelle Obama, who this year is creating a national movement to tackle the epidemic of childhood obesity and make our kids healthier.” (Obama’s speech)
    “Tip for Michelle: Take down the corporate corn famers ram-jamming government subsidized corn syrup into their fat little bodies.” (Bagaent’s answer)
    http://www.joebageant.com/joe/2010/01/the-annotated-obama.html

  301. trippticket February 10, 2010 at 4:43 pm #

    “I’m focused on what’s in front of me, and right now that’s ending childhood obesity in a generation,” she said.
    Oh, I think we’ll end childhood obesity in a generation alright. Probably obesity in general.
    But as hard as I worked with the movement pushing for an organic garden at the White House in 2008, I doubt it’ll have much to do with a positive role model…

  302. trippticket February 10, 2010 at 4:51 pm #

    I’ll go way out on a limb with Michelle and claim that I’m working to reduce the amount of liquidity tied up in 401(k) accounts in a generation;)

  303. wagelaborer February 10, 2010 at 5:38 pm #

    You are clearly wrong that I want more Americans. We use more than our share of resources, and, you’re right, as soon as third worlders move in, they crank up the heat and get a car.
    You’re wrong in asserting that leftists don’t care about overpopulation.
    While I’m on a Bagaent kick, here’s his view.
    http://www.joebageant.com/joe/2008/02/nine-billion-li.html

  304. Laura Louzader February 10, 2010 at 5:54 pm #

    Wage, you don’t even have to PAY women to get their tubes tied, though you might have to pay males to get vasectomies… a waste of money, since no sane woman would take a guy’s word for it that he’s had a vasectomy. If a woman wants to be dead for sure that she will not get pregnant, she worries about her own body.
    Just make the sterilization free at the local public hospital to any woman who wants one, no questions asked, no qualifiers. No “counseling” session where you as much as try to talk her out of it because she’s “only” 28 years old and “only” has 2 kids. Have her sign a waiver waiving her right to remedy should she be afflicted with Buyer’s Remorse… I had to sign one of those.
    Right now, Stroger Hospital here in Chicago does perhaps 10 pro bono sterilizations a year. The waiting list is very long, and the women who most desire this are lower-middle-class women with a couple of kids and a two-income family, whose health insurance doesn’t cover the operation or who don’t have health insurance provided by employers. The operation costs about $3000, which is a pretty hefty chunk of change for the average working family. It was only $600 when I got mine in 1981, and my hospitalization covered most of it, but many plans will no longer cover it now.
    Worse, in many states a poor woman cannot get a Medicaid sterilization unless her health is in danger. The fact that she already has three or four kids and is on welfare does not matter. Most low-wage working women can’t even afford oral contraception, which costs about $75 a month these days- a major bite out the income of someone who makes $9 an hour. Forget about $3000 for tubal ligation.
    The way to do it is advertise it for free to any woman over the age of 21 who wants it, no spousal consent required, no qualifications such as a requirement that the woman have already borne a given number of kids. It’s her decision- let her attest to that and sign the usual waivers and other nonsense.

  305. trippticket February 10, 2010 at 6:01 pm #

    $600 in 1981
    $3000 in 2010
    Isn’t that about the same amount of money?

  306. wagelaborer February 10, 2010 at 6:41 pm #

    Well, I know women want sterilization. One of the women I was talking about told me that while she was in labor with her 5th child, she asked for a tubal and they told her no. She had to wait. So, of course, she never got around to it.
    A co-worker of mine wanted a tubal after her first, but the doctor refused. Then she accidentally got pregnant again and insisted all through her pregnancy that she wanted a tubal, but he refused until she had a living child. THEN, since it was another boy, he told her she might want a girl someday.
    She threw a fit and got it anyway, but that’s ridiculous.
    The doctor is a right wing Christian and has around 7 kids himself.
    My father, my husband, my brother-in-law, and my son-in-law are all sterilized. I think that it’s an option.
    The point of paying people is to get those procrastinators motivated, to give young people a good chunk of cash when they can really use it, and to have society be on the side of responsibility instead of irresponsibility.

  307. Anchortown February 10, 2010 at 7:39 pm #

    Toss-up: Nazis, or degenerate Romans?
    BushBama brought us old Germany’s hyper inflation (every American’s “net” worth was halved when the Feds doubled the money supply…)
    But Bush’s homeland security rationale echoes Rome’s Pirates of Ostia?
    The TSA may be the new Brown Shirts …
    But Bush’s tap dancing equaled Nero’s fiddling?
    And the (so far) proposed “green” payments to third world countries sounds like Romans throwing gold over the walls of Rome to keep the Goths and Vandals out…
    All companies foreign and domestic have person hood in Bama’s America but…
    Caligula elected his horse to the Senate!
    Winner – America is old Rome!!!!!!

  308. Cash February 10, 2010 at 8:14 pm #

    Wage, we’re talking past each other here. Like I said, I’m not saying people have to switch off their intellectual and moral faculties.
    What I’m saying is America isn’t always automatically in the wrong so just don’t automatically take sides against your country. Don’t take sides with the people that want to kill you. It’s not cool. If it elevates you in the estimation of your friends, find new friends.
    Maybe this is an exaggeration but someone said that a liberal is someone who can’t take his own side in a dispute. Don’t be like that.
    You say: “But- that doesn’t mean I think it’s OK to kill people just because they’re not American.”
    Of course not, who on earth said so? I’m not in favour of warfare. I think it’s a last resort and it’s always cheaper to bribe your enemies than make war. But sometimes bribery doesn’t work and you have no choice in the matter.
    There are real evil bastards in this world and force is the only language they understand. In fact I would say that gangsters and murderers run most of the world and, no, not including the US.
    Wait I forgot about the psychopaths on Wall Street. Maybe you guys have some work to do after all.

  309. Cash February 10, 2010 at 8:24 pm #

    And does the real world not include contraceptives?
    I think the problem here is one of societal attitudes, where sexual misbehaviour is not seen as a serious problem. I’ve seen the grief it produces and we shouldn’t minimize it. We are not animals after all and we shouldn’t condone people acting like animals. That includes both men and women.
    Like Clinton said, abortion ought to be safe, legal and rare.

  310. SNAFU February 10, 2010 at 9:08 pm #

    Wage, Agree with your positions concerning patriotism and Earth citizenship.
    Disagree with your knowledge about depleted Uranium weapons. DU is a kinetic energy weapon not a free fall or explosive weapon as DU is very hard, very heavy and slightly radioactive it is used as high velocity gun projectiles. It would be effective in a kinetic energy missile such as the anti missile missiles as well but I have no knowledge of their mechanization.
    Agree wholeheartedly with you about reducing human birth rates; however I think far more drastic measures are required than voluntary sterilization. To reduce the human numbers, to a level that might enable humans to avoid TSHTF, in a timely manner will likely require mass involuntary sterilization. I prefer that it be accomplished uni-sexually and that it be men for obvious reasons.

  311. abbeysbooks February 10, 2010 at 9:12 pm #

    In the 1950’s at Philadelphia general Hospital they used to routinely sterilize black women, unmarried, who came in for delivery. In the 60’s there was such a hue and cry about this that forced and unasked for sterilizations were put under the gun. This is what is making it so hard now to get it done.
    Black males hate the idea of sterilization and birth control as they like to get their women pregnant. Of course, now that child support payments are enforced, they probably have changed their mind. This forces a lot of guys to work under the table to avoid garnishing of wages. Then the repercussion is lower SS payments when they retired. It seems only personal responsibility works and that is becoming rarer to find, eh?

  312. TomOfTheNorth February 10, 2010 at 9:17 pm #

    Popcine,
    While always credible, Farrell offers no weighting to his 20 economic ‘bombs’. I would weight his number 19 – the dysfunctional 2-party system (aka a corrupt legislative branch) as the number 1 crisis behind which all others follow. Rising health insurance costs could take over 19th place….
    On the other hand, deCarbonnell’s blathering on Food Insecurity is merely an assemblage of unrelated facts to support a predetermined conclusion. There is no grain shortage. This is reflected in current prices.
    Could there be a food shortage in 2010? Sure.
    Could the Sun go supernova in 2010? You Betcha!
    The deCarbonnell approach to a supernova ‘expose’ would be to quote an astrophysicist on the reduction in sunspots, then cite some exceptionally hot summer temps from somewhere/ anywhere, draw in the Haiti earthquake and voila!
    RUN FOR YOUR LIVES! EVACUATE THE PLANET!
    Generally, food supplies lurch from the growing season in one hemisphere to the other. The are always issues with more ‘tender’ crops such as citrus or veggies due to unexpected, adverse weather. But broadly, supplies continue to be adequate, perhaps even ample. Keep in mind that the biggest consumer of grain globally is livestock.
    Regarding disaster area, a so-called disaster area can actually be productive within weeks depending on the nature of the ‘disaster’. Floods can wipe out a planted crop – which is a disaster – but after the water drains, farmers replant. The net effect vould merely be a two week delay for harvest
    A critical examination of deCarbonnell’s citations will show dated, cherry-picked facts that do not accurately convey current and/or widespread conditions.
    That said, since food is essential for your survival, it’s future availability should be something that you pay very close attention to.
    Best,
    – TOTN

  313. The Mook February 10, 2010 at 9:30 pm #

    Neat to see JHK’s three days worth of food rants in real life. The only thing left are some zucchini relatives. Just as nice to see grown Ivy leaguers not be able to get to work for a week. If these politicians were still foreman in a manufacturing plant I’ll bet they would fire anyone who failed to show up for a week. Makes me wonder how the gamblig degenerates are getting to the track/casino. And one last item, any nitwits out there that haven’t bought a newspaper in years because you are digitally advanced, please don’t feel you have the right to purchase one when all your electronics go down. If your nice I will copy the one I have delivered every day, and send it to you through the post office. You know them, they are the mostly blue-collars who showed up for work this week.

  314. TomOfTheNorth February 10, 2010 at 9:32 pm #

    The Mook,
    A slight correction:
    Wall St. is not a Casino.
    Wall St. is a Confidence Game.
    And now Congress is in with the Hucksters and we’re all Rubes….

  315. Vlad Krandz February 11, 2010 at 12:24 am #

    You said, people need the Darkness to reach the Light. Beautifully put and Theologically Correct. It’s much better to be Theologically Correct rather than Politically Correct. For the King of this World is roaming about like a Lion looking for souls to devour. Armed with Theologically Correctness, one has a chance to withstand Him. Satan is Politically Correct, the most Correct in fact. He knows all about the letter of the Law and He just loves people who love minorities more than their own kin.
    Asoka is right I believe. Ron Paul will talk to anyone and he is on speaking terms with the Far Right. If his Campaign had gone forward, they would have destoyed him with this fact alone. My chief complaint against him is that he still holds to the idea of workers as capital. Thus he is in favor of continuing to bring a million workers to America a year. This was grotesque even at the best of times, now with so many Americans out of work it is criminal insanity.
    Libertarianism in this regard is very far from our thought of America First – and believe it or not, that includes the American Worker. This poor beast of burden is more important than anything He does or makes. He is America. The business of America is promoting the good of Americans. Even blue collar workers. How utterly amazing: a Club (Nation) that actually exists for the good of its memebers; whose dues (taxes) would pay for the activities of the Club and not other people outside the Club. The Club we belong to right now uses the dues to finance the interests of the Club Officers not the Club per se or the people who paid the dues. The Club Officers should be put in a rubber dinghy and towed out two hundred miles into international waters. Maybe they can row to Africa and ask for some of our money as alms. Now that would be good reality TV.

  316. Vlad Krandz February 11, 2010 at 1:11 am #

    Sure, but think of all the middle, upper middle, and wealthy women who have “gotten in trouble” and just use abortion to hide what they did. Can a just society be built from such duplicity? And the men are often right down there with them. And all this has gone on in the richest Country during the richest time in all history. No, there is no excuse for it – our wealth has just made us decadent and thus irresponible and more – insensitive to the life process. No one who has any sensitivity could do such a thing. As a society, we are jaded beyond all belief.
    Moral Superiority to Men is one of the most cherised feminine delusions. The widespread practice and support of aborition by women show this belief to be the lie that it is.
    Another angle: women now can abort a baby whether the Father likes it or not. But if they want to keep the baby and the Father doesn’t? Tough luck for him, he pays if she wants him too. All this talk about reproductive freedom for women by Feminist, but not a word out of these moral pygmies about reproductive rights for men. Another brick in the wall against the Feminists and their fantasy of superiority.
    To make people who don’t believe in Abortion, who think it’s murder – pay for it, is wrong. It’s Tyranny of the Blackest Kind – the kind that leads to mass movement of people. Again, we will not allow it. Your kind will have to go some place other than where we are. And our kind will flock in droves from your Blue States to our Red. (The color map used to be reversed – it’s far more sensible to call liberal states red and conservative states blue. Some Adorno type mind fucker came up with the idea of reversing it to confuse the commoners. Same thing in Europe with calling Gypsies the Rom. It makes the average joe blow/jane doe liberal college educated moron think the Gypsies are Romanians. This kind of shit works, that’s why they do it.)

  317. Vlad Krandz February 11, 2010 at 1:27 am #

    You seem frustrated at me or us. Remember your beginer’s mind – that’s how you can relate to our not knowing. If you want to be a teacher that is. People can be very learned and not have the ability to teach. Teaching is a skill in itself apart from the subject. Tragically, some have a desire to teach but not the ability…
    Anyway, part of the problem might be that I didn’t define my parameters very well. I got what you said that cows could be good for the environment. But say you had just ten acres, would it be worth while to give a few acres to cows? And if so, I assume it would be mostly for milk not meat. For large scale meat, wouldn’t you need more than a few acres? Here’s where a little socialism goes a long way: the commons in a town. Or open grazing lands instead of endless corn as you mentioned. But again, the future may hold conflict in this area as I said. Conflict between farmers and grazers is part of history and history tends to repeat itself. Of course if your tribe get its way, farming per se is over. But remember, the Indians didn’t horticulturists didn’t like the Colonial animals running all over their forest garden. I think the possibility of conflict remains even among permie types who are doing different things.
    Mob grazing? Like a Mafia spaghetti restaurant?

  318. asoka February 11, 2010 at 2:21 am #

    Asoka is right I believe.

    Of course I’m right… because I provide facts to support my positions and avoid trying to predict the future.
    If we were the Weimar Republic, as this week’s title suggests, our inflation rate last month would have been about 100,000 percent.
    In reality, for the latest month we have data, which is Dec. 2009, American consumer prices inched up 0.1%. (that is less than 1%… it’s practically zero inflation).
    But CFNers seem to prefer the porn-violence fantasy of a future decomposition of society. That is what I have been reading on CFN for years now.
    The story line goes like this: We are just a few months away from total economic collapse, empty store shelves, $10 a gallon gasoline, getting an opportunity to use all that stored up ammunition to kill some folks… and damn if that horizon doesn’t just keep receding… it’s always a few months (or one Friedman unit) away.
    But we remain convinced it will one day happen. No technological miracles, please! No more government fixes to create employment, please! No real solutions to the deficit, please! Just doom and gloom. We do not want to be denied our Mad Max Armageddon.

  319. cowswithguns February 11, 2010 at 2:38 am #

    As the great taoist philosopher Lao Tzu said: “A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.”
    The shit may not be hitting our faces yet, but that doesn’t mean a big, packed turd-wad hasn’t been thrown toward the fan we find ourselves gathered in front of at the moment.

  320. Laura Louzader February 11, 2010 at 6:37 am #

    No, Tripp, it is not the same amount of money. Medical costs have inflated much faster than almost anything else. Only education costs have increased faster thanks to the Sally Mae loan program.
    While the housing market had given back about 50% of its specious gains of the past ten years, and the cost of many goods have fallen substantially, medical costs have way outstripped inflation.
    The cost of my apt in St. Louis then was $400/month heat included, and the same apt in the same building now, in much improved condition, is $1200.
    A pair of single vision eyeglasses then cost $110, now I pay $65 for bifocals- a steep reduction in cost.
    The same job pays 80% more in wages.
    Clothing is no more expensive for clothing of comparable quality.
    Also, my medical insurance paid two thirds of the cost with no argument, but these days, many plans will not pay.

  321. diogen February 11, 2010 at 9:02 am #

    Vlad, a few thoughts:
    “Same thing in Europe with calling Gypsies the Rom. ”
    I’m surprised an intellectual like you doesn’t know (or ignores the fact) that Roma is the correct name of the Gypsy people in their language, while the English word Gypsy is based on an erroneous belief that Roma people were Egyptians.
    “Some Adorno type mind fucker ”
    Your frequent name-dropping may mean you’re really a pseudo-intellectual.
    “women now can abort a baby whether the Father likes it or not. ”
    Aren’t you the one who insisted that women ARE different from men. Surely they are more impacted by the pregnancy and the birth than the father would, so they SHOULD have a greater voice in the matter. So be honest Vlad and tell us how you feel about black embryos aborted vs. white embryos aborted. If you don’t fell the same, wouldn’t that make you a hypocrite to talk about the sanctity of human life which begins at conception?

  322. dale February 11, 2010 at 11:05 am #

    I’ve listened to Ron Paul, and in some ways I like the guy, and I think he is right at times. At the same time, I consider myself strongly progressive. Why is that not a contradiction? Because I’m learned by experience, not to be an ideologue. I even subscribed one year to the Libertarian magazine “Reason”, dreary as the damn thing was.
    Unfortunately, the Libs and Ron ARE ideologues,…. through and through. You cannot imagine a problem for which they do not already have an answer. They will give you the answer in a heartbeat, and be exasperated if you don’t see the genius of it all immediately. If a guy like Ron Paul were in the White House you wouldn’t have to worry about who his advisors were, he wouldn’t need them. No matter what the issue, he could just trot out the Libertarian talking point for that problem and bingo…. “problem solved”. Wouldn’t it be nice if life were really the easy, problems were really that “black and white” and answers (and their consequences) could be so easily predetermined? My own experience suggests otherwise, unintended consequences are often severe and no matter which choice someone like a President makes, someone often gets hurt.
    I suspect, if a study was done, that we would find people who adopt hard right or left political positions are more likely to also be strongly dogmatic in other areas of life, like religion. Many people just can’t handle confusion or lack of clarity, they have to KNOW the answers, no matter how unlikely it would be that they would be the one to have those answers.
    The author Dan Boorstin, in his book “The Discoverers” said something I thought was extremely insightful. That was, that the greatest impediment to the truth and real knowledge isn’t ignorance, but dogmatic falsehood. If you are ignorant, you at least can still have an open mind.
    One thing is for sure, ideologues don’t choose their positions based on facts, they choose their “facts” based on their positions. Don’t waste your time trying to debate them, it’s a total waste of time.

  323. The Mook February 11, 2010 at 11:07 am #

    I’m sorry, that reference was not to the previos sentences. I meant the something for nothing crowd at your local Indian/Government casino. You know, the ones Ed Rendell wants to pay for the sludge funds until he gets the tolls on route 80. If your not familiar with Pa. he is the one who spends taxpayer’s time at Eagles, Phillies, Pirates, Steelers, Sixers, Blind Sister’s of Harrisburg and any other sporting event he can find between begging/lecturing appearances.

  324. Cash February 11, 2010 at 11:43 am #

    Asoka,
    Gov’t fixes to create employment tend to do the opposite. Here in Canada we had a generation of govt trying to create jobs through stimulative fiscal and monetary policy and we got instead high unemployment, high deficits, high inflation. When govt quit trying to stimulate we got low unemployment, low deficits, low inflation.
    But we do not ever, ever learn from history because guess what they’re trying to do now? Stimulative policies were a bust in the past so why on earth are they doing it again?
    It’s true there were many technological miracles in the last 100 or so years (internal combustion engine, mechanization of agriculture, radio, TV, powered flight to name some) but just as there were miracles we had calamities ie WW1, WW2, the Nazi and Communist depravities, AIDS… that too is a long list.
    I’m not sure that optimists have a better take on things than pessimists. Pessimists tend to be more anxious, have a more keyed up fight/flight response and I think react better and faster in times of trouble. But optimists take advantage of opportunity that pessimists are blind to. I think you need both kinds so I wouldn’t discount the value of either.
    Too many optimists or too many pessimists are a bad thing. Groupthink inevitably takes you right over the cliff.

  325. wagelaborer February 11, 2010 at 12:03 pm #

    What makes you think that I automatically take sides against America? And what do you mean by “America”?
    America is a big country with 300 million people in it. If I take stands against the 1% who own 70% of it, and their war machine, who are bound to take over the world and loot it for their profit, how is that “America”?
    George Bernard Shaw said that patriotism is the belief that your country is the best in the world just because you were born in it. You want me to extend that to people that I consider criminals, just because they also were born in it.
    I don’t think so.
    Also, yes, in the real world there are contraceptives. There are also teenagers who don’t use them. And married people who get drunk and screw without them. And women who have drugs slipped into their drinks and don’t remember what happens next. And many many other scenarios playing out right now that will end up in an unwanted pregnancy. Yes, right now, someone is overcome with lust and is making a mistake.
    The question is. Should that mistake, that unwanted pregnancy, be forcibly made into an unwanted child?
    I say no.

  326. Cash February 11, 2010 at 2:19 pm #

    Wage, there’s no way on God’s green Earth that the US has remotely the power to take over the world. I don’t know where this propaganda started. It can’t even control dusty little holes like Iraq and Afghanistan. The so-called wars there are lost, they were a total screw up, Obama recognized reality, declared defeat and is getting out.
    And that war machine is no such thing, it is a pile of high tech junk, a giant waste of money and the financial equivalent of concrete overshoes. The Soviets’ war machine destroyed them as surely as yours will destroy you. It is a paper tiger and nobody is afraid of it, especially Iran, whose leaders openly laugh.
    OK maybe I’m misinterpreting you through the haze of events happening here but I can’t help seeing parallels. What I see are Eastern urbanites in Canada who openly sneer at people living in what they call disparagingly “the regions”, esp. westerners, just as Mr K sneers at what he calls the corn pone Nazis. Not to over-generalize but westerners love their country, Easterners are contemptuous of it.
    Our Prime Minister, a westerner, is mocked as being Bush-Lite, when he is nothing of the sort, and his party which is western based, as being Republican-lite, which is nonsense (they are politically to the left of Hilary Clinton). It is rank bigotry similar to what you see towards southerners and people in your so called fly-over country.
    But the biggest parallel is in attitudes towards our military. There is a deep disdain in our Eastern urbanites they don’t try to hide. There have been too many incidents to get into here.
    But most troubling is this absurd insistence on the part of Eastern urbanites on denying our historical and cultural roots in Britain. Instead you hear that we have no culture or, alternatively, that we are multi-cultural. It is in effect denying what this country is. I could go on and on but the essence of it is an adversarial stance towards our country, its history and heritage and a prosecutorial stance towards our military (I could go on and on on that topic).
    According to the Eastern view we have no redeeming qualities, we are a racist horror, we are an environmental blight, we are a cultural nullity, we do not deserve to exist, we are an embarrassment. One Liberal voter told me we have no right to occupy this country (so I told her she should leave the land of her birth and go back to India the land of her ancestors). Anyway, I see the same thing in your country, a disdain and contempt towards it on the part of many of your citizens. The more vocal the contempt the more honour conferred on the speaker.

  327. asoka February 11, 2010 at 3:39 pm #

    But most troubling is this absurd insistence on the part of Eastern urbanites on denying our historical and cultural roots in Britain. Instead you hear that we have no culture or, alternatively, that we are multi-cultural.

    Why is it so troubling? Why should people go around talking about the past, saying “We have cultural roots in Britain,” as if that should impinge on current reality.
    The current reality is that Canada is multicultural. If you look at the visible minorities in Canada, they represent more than 16 per cent of the total population. That means more than 5 million people in Canada trace their origins from non-European countries all over the world. Why should they be saying “We have cultural roots in Britain”?
    Canada’s multicultural make up is the current day reality and (without denying its British heritage) is part of Canada’s strength.

  328. asoka February 11, 2010 at 4:22 pm #

    We are not Weimar. We are human beings on a journey together, all inhabiting the same planet. It is counter productive to focus on our differences and fight each other.
    As the Native American Chippewa Indians say, “No tree has branches so foolish as to fight amongst themselves.”

  329. Cash February 11, 2010 at 4:29 pm #

    I’m troubled by the DENIAL of our historical and cultural heritage. The 16% do not define us. The 84% define us. I am not of Anglo background, my parents came from Italy. So I am one of the 16%but I have no trouble embracing this country for what it is which is an ANGLO SAXON DEMOCRACY. To claim this place is multicultural is nonsense.
    You know as well as I what that means because the USA is also an Anglo Saxon democracy. We have the same roots. This is not something to suppress or be ashamed of, it is something to recognize and treasure. We are both former colonies, both successor states to the British Empire.
    My parents came here because of that fact not in spite of it. They wanted to get away from Italy and make a new start in a far better country. You wouldn’t appreciate the good character of the people here unless you’ve lived somewhere else.
    Also Asoka, race has nothing to do with this, I have seen people of Indian background that are more British than the British. The issue is culture, not race.

  330. asia February 11, 2010 at 4:38 pm #

    Abbey,
    what are yr favorite gardening sites?
    as far as the hood goes its vogue for a black guy to ask some youngun to ‘have his kid’.. AFTER ALL HELL NEVER PAY A DIME IN SUPPORT of said child.
    the now banned ‘ racist’ JS noted ‘ its on our dime’!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  331. asia February 11, 2010 at 4:40 pm #

    ‘ watch the fun!’…it wont be fun!

  332. asia February 11, 2010 at 4:42 pm #

    ‘Aren’t you the one who insisted that women ARE different from men.’
    duhhh..the only ones i knew who insisted there was no difference in the genders were feminazis.

  333. cuddletuffy February 11, 2010 at 6:07 pm #

    Ozone said, “You don’t know ME.”
    I didn’t say that I know you. So congratulations. You stated the obvious – yes I don’t know You. I don’t get your point at all.
    Do you see those orbs floating around your head that look like Mars, and Jupiter? They aren’t!! You aren’t the center of the solar system, much the galaxy or the universe. How’s that for stating the obvious!?!?
    I don’t think I ever even said Obama is a liberal. My point is … … ah forget it. Go back and read I’ve been saying. Too much coddling isn’t good for the mind.

  334. Vlad Krandz February 11, 2010 at 6:23 pm #

    I’m glad we agree on something! Maybe someday we’ll find ourseselves in a labor camp toether as counselors or inmates. Once we get the idiots sterilized, then we can start deporting the illegals.
    Sex can be controlled, Wage. If you are having trouble with this, consider SLAA or Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous. There are groups all over the country.
    I’m sorry I thought you believed in more mass immigration. Like all normal Patriots, I’m driven to madness at the way our Goverment is giving away our future. They are robbing from the Volk Gut – the store of resources for the future of the people. Anyway, I’ll try not to put you into those rants again. Just others.

  335. Vlad Krandz February 11, 2010 at 6:32 pm #

    You left yourself wide open – here comes my fist. I, like most Whites, fully accept that other races are better at us than some things. The question is whether they give us any credit. Yes Blacks jump higher and run faster – but can they admit we are smarter? No they can’t and they get very upset when the question is brought up. You see god man, they know that smarts are more important than strength or speed. Even they are smart enough to realize this. Only you and your’s don’t get it.
    I have now admitted about a half dozen times to you that East Asians and Askenenazi Jews are smarter than Whites. Do you have a memory problem? I’m still for Whites before them. Why? Because I’m White and we have the right to our own Culture and Countries. The East Asians claim the same rights. Are you against them too?

  336. Vlad Krandz February 11, 2010 at 6:35 pm #

    Not about all that brainless, about Ron Paul. Are you that desperate for approval that you are willing to distort other commentators and take their words out of context? Obviously you are.

  337. Vlad Krandz February 11, 2010 at 6:45 pm #

    The Gypsies themselves cultivated the story that they were Egyptians. In any case, they are not Romanians – even if they pretend to be. From all accounts, these people are curse to others wherever they go. And all their romanticism about being travelers, rejected by other people – well they sure settled down right quick when the welfare state came into existence. They are a curse to Romainia and Hungary just like Blacks and Mexicans are to us.
    My concern is with White Babies. Blacks would be more than happy to breed endlessly until taking care of their children was all that Whites had energy to do. It must end. But sure, they’re life is sacred too. But it belongs in Africa.
    Women are more impacted but since the Law is positing gender equality, I expect it live by it – and make immoral Feminist tow their own line. Just like the hate crime law – enforce it fairly and Blacks will be begging the Court to end it.
    How can any man be as confused as you are? Look down – do you still have any balls?

  338. DeeJones February 11, 2010 at 7:08 pm #

    “These aren’t my projections onto people. These are based on conversations with people I know and love. They believe a narrative that is false. They vote, but they vote unwittingly for the very people who are directly opposed to their interest. They believe that they are informed, educated, caring and tend to see, “right-wingers”, as rabid, stupid, hateful … They vote, but they are disenfranchised because they don’t understand basic economics and therefore don’t understand just how far gone our democratic republic is and that it wasn’t taken from them, as much as they eagerly help hand it away to the imperial state.”
    I read the above and thought, gee, this also could be applied to reight-wing, conservative republicans just as well. Look in the mirror….BOO! It you.
    DJ

  339. cuddletuffy February 11, 2010 at 7:31 pm #

    Asoka –
    First of all, I haven’t seen any facts presented by you that are clear, unambiguous, irrefutable proof that Ron Paul is dangerous to society or that he is a racist. Even his voting record doesn’t mean he is a racist. Are all people opposed to illegal immigration racist? Some certainly are. Does that make all opposed racist? No, it doesn’t if they are opposed to it for other reasons.
    Do you think that maybe Ron Paul opposes illegal immigration in order to protect all Americans? Does not illegal immigration create competition for jobs in communities like the legal immigrants and the US citizens in the hispanic and african american communities? Is it not possible he thinks he is looking out for them by trying to protect the flow of immigration into our country? Ever seen a poll on what African Americans think of illegal immigration? Maybe Ron Paul reflects their views.
    I have never seen where he, properly identified, under oath or on record, stated he voted the way he did because of reasons that are based on racial descrimination.
    You assume he voted for something for a reason he may not have even considered. You aren’t stating facts. You are making assumptions about why someone voted for something and stating your opinion based on those assumptions. Your facts wouldn’t even be considered admissible as credible evidence in any half-decent court of law.
    Ironically, his views and voting record on local control and self-sufficiency sound remarkably like the views of people like Malcom X and Marcus Garvey. They were misunderstood and called racist too – often by people who felt threatened by people empowering themselves and asserting their rights to life, liberty and property in a desire to be self-sufficient at a local level.
    I honestly don’t know whether Ron Paul is a racist or not. You certainly haven’t presented any facts that say he is.
    I do know this. The War on Drugs is the most violent, repressive and tyrannical form of oppression against racial minorities in our time. It is a FACT that its incarceration rates are worse than Apartheid in South Africa. Yet, Ron Paul is the lone politician with the guts to come right out and say he is against the War On Drugs and that he wants to end it immediately. So, I ask you to ask yourself, why would he want to abolish this insidious and racist institution if he is a racist?
    I don’t agree with his personal beliefs on abortion. But, he does say it is an issue to be decided by local jurisdiction. I don’t think this means he hates woman. You have done the same thing you did with the civil rights issue. You took his record and took your opinion that this means he is against women’s rights and that he is a hypocrite and stated it as a fact. As it stands, he believes life begins at birth and that no person has the right to take the life of another – especially defenseless human life. That doesn’t fit with my personal beliefs that I reserve the right to change for myself, but I have to admire his honesty. Furthermore, he isn’t some violent pro-lifer. He believes that this issue must be addressed in local jurisdictions, not national ones. That means that if his own state or county wants to make the practice legal, he is willing to live with that in peace, even though he doesn’t like it.
    I bet we all know at least one person, male or female, who has a deep-rooted spiritual conviction that all conceptions of life are sanctified and see abortion as taking a life. They could be the most loving non-violent person supportive of all human rights, but can’t get past that conviction. Does that make them dangerous to society? Does that belief make them against woman? I hardly think so. It appears to me that you are making huge leaps using conjecture in an attempt to villify someone who you fear but can’t marshall the means to refute them by means other than slander.
    Furthermore, is the abortion issue that pressing when compared to the issues I raised where he is dead on? Let’s see: abortion vs. a global empire that is destroying our nation and killing innocent woman and children every single day.
    Listen to what Ron Paul says about the rights of woman and children in places like Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Somalia, Yemen, Diego Garcia and other places where we have decimated their societies and bomb and kill them indiscriminately. He thinks they have a right to live in peace and self-determination without Americans telling anyone how to live. He thinks the violence is immoral, illegal and must stop immediately.
    Notice too that you avoid the whole issue of empire and war. Look at the demographics of the military. What communities does it overwhelmingly prey on for enlistment? The poor – whites and racial minorities. What does it do with them? It sends them off to kill, maim, die and be maimed in illegal wars. Who can least afford the financial burden of our military empire? The poor. What capital might be deployed for constructive purposes by individuals who would employ people for those constructive ends that is destroyed by the military empire? At least a trillion every year not even counting the interest on the debt. Who is the one guy in Congress who openly and regularly calls for an end to that system immediately? Ron Paul.
    You can say that your opinions and projections and assumptions are facts. That doesn’t make them facts. If you are afraid of Ron Paul because he is against the welfare state, or because he is against the empire, or because he opposes the War on Drugs, or you don’t believe in sound money, that is legitimate and you should honestly state that and counter with your facts and opinions as to why those are bad ideas. We all might learn something, and you would be forced to do more homework, thus you would learn a lot too.
    To state your opinions and conjecture as facts to slander someone even in the face of considerable evidence that resoundingly refutes your opinions is; well, it’s a lot of things. To me, that level of dishonesty with oneself and self-deprivation of knowledge and diversity of ideas is sad. When done to willfully mislead people and deprive them of avenues of thought and action open to them, it is dangerous. Only you know you whether you are willfully ignorant, or willfully dishonest and why.
    I rest my case. Besides I’m hungry. Hmmm… maybe I’ll make myself a cheese-doodle casserole. I call that dish a Kunstler Cake. :-)

  340. cuddletuffy February 11, 2010 at 7:36 pm #

    Ozone,
    I owe you an apology. I was tired and cranky. Now that my Kunstler Cake is in the oven I feel better. Still that isn’t enough. I was mean to you and disrespectful. For that I am sorry. Please consider my sincere apology.

  341. cuddletuffy February 11, 2010 at 8:03 pm #

    I am not a right-wing republican. Not even a Republican.
    I make a valid point. Modern day liberals/leftists/progressives have a serious dilemma. They want to empower the state for their ends, but they don’t achieve them. In fact, the state uses that power against them to achieve ends that are in direct contradiction to the ideals. Specifically, that is true of the partisans who pull the Democrat lever and swallow. Though, I don’t think partisans have much in the way of ideals so probably don’t have much of a dilemma. Dilemmas occur higher up on the chain of intelligence and conscious thought. So, let’s say that the idealists who vote Democrat and haven’t figured a way out of the strong-centralized-state dilemma, much less considered it though aware are who I was addressing.
    The exact same point is true of partisans on the right/conservative camp. Though, the difference is that there is a much stronger and well-organized movement on the conservatives who have refuted the Republicans, the neo-cons and reclaimed and restated their ideas and values. I can’t say that is true of any movement I am aware of on the so-called, “left.” I am certainly not aware of any that has resolved the massive idealogical contradiction I described in earlier posts. If you are aware of one, I’d be interested. in learning more about it.
    This leads me to my original point and why I was critical of the lumping of the TeaPartiers and Baggers. I see already that the libertarians have learned from history and are already refuting the TeaPartiers who are trying to co-opt their movement.
    Please read my writings more closely, and do not get defensive. Above all, stop assuming that critics are enemies. Critics are friends who are tired of seeing friends beat their heads up against a wall. Alas, friends can only show us the door, it is up to us to walk through it; or tell them off without even knowing who or what they are. BOO!!

  342. cuddletuffy February 11, 2010 at 9:58 pm #

    Tripp,
    Friedmann was not a big picture guy. Nor was he a free market practitioner or adherent – despite anything he may have ever said. He believed in and advocated for central bank manipulated interest rates. He also relied on state violence and interventions to subsidize his colonialism in the name of free markets.
    Free market economists do not believe in any sort of central planning or fiat price setting. Remember, an interest rate is just another price – the price of borrowing capital. The evidence of how devastating just that one intervention of price setting in the market can be is all around us today.
    This is very important to understand when starting a discussion about free markets. Free market economics in theory and in practice is not concerned with growth. It’s primary concern is scarcity and next is pricing as the two are tightly related. Free market economics are all about nature for the ultimate goal is an unhindered feedback about supply and demand for resources, raw, manufactured/assembled, labor … Free market adherents acknowledge contraction and growth – though their growth is not the same concept as in the non-free/manipulated market economic theories and practices. Free market adherents have no attachment to either outcome of contraction or growth. From their viewpoint those aren’t really the proper terms. The only agenda is to as quickly as possible understand the limits of reality so that the best decisions about resource allocation can be made.
    It might be best said that free market economics is really about understanding and finding a natural equilibrium as measured in prices. It is an ecosystem that is tightly coupled with nature, being bound up with the scarcity of natural resources.
    Free market economists and practitioners reject all interventions in the market. They reject the notion of growth understanding that what people on a spectrum of economists from Friedman to Keynes called growth was actually wealth destruction leading to ever greater destruction the longer distortions in resource realities are hidden through the frauds of central planning.
    Let us take some of JHK’s pet peeves as an example. For starters the Happy Motoring Society. This unsustainable boondoggle came about because of massive government interventions in the economy – things like the National Highway Act; tax subsidies for all manner of suburban and motoring growth activities. It was not a free market phenomenon.
    Capital likely would never have been allocated on this scale had the enterprise relied solely on private capital. The same is true for anything done on a colossal and unsustainable scale. The railroads; the massive military buildups; likely even the colonization of the New World. None of these ventures would have taken place on such a scale had the costs not been passed on to populations via the state through higher taxes the hidden tax of inflation or both. Would we even be here if the Jeffersonian way had won out? Maybe not. Would it matter? Well, if we never would have been here, I guess not.
    Here is one to ponder. Right now JHK is advocating railroad use. What if no petroleum never existed or was discovered or effectively exploited for its energy potential? Well, coal would have been our oil, and the big unsustainable boondoggle would have been national railroads and steam engines. It turns out, our number is up with petroleum.
    Free market economics would have tempered speculative, unsustainable growth in any energy system.
    I gather from your posts that you are leaving the system. That is the ultimate free market act and the antithesis of what people like Friedmann spent their lives trying to do – namely destroy freedom in the name of a free market they sought to control and manipulate – all for the purpose of controlling more wealth for themselves.
    Thomas Woods discusses the free market in relation to current events very well. He discusses how the market was not free and how the interest rate manipulations along with other market interventions and manipulations actually caused the problems we see today. The book is titled, “Meltdown.”
    In short, that Friedman is/was a free market advocate and practitioner is a myth that free market adherents reject and with good reason. The free market is concerned with equilibrium. Listen to the free market advocates of today. They are the proponents of allowing the crash to occur without any impedance. The reason is so that all unsustainable wealth/resource destroying activities will cease immediately before the unnoticed problems can do any more damage and get any bigger. In a free market, scarcity is acknowledged as the primary organizing principle. It is the best and most immediate feedback mechanism we have short of abandoning division of labor and going back to hunter-gatherer systems. It isn’t perfect, but that is the point. It is the most efficient mechanism for determining resources and allowing people to decide upon their use, aquisition and trade bearing full and near-immediate consequence for their choices.
    It isn’t quite tribal living, but I guarantee you, what you are doing is free market economics and that it will be the free market that will be adhered to in a World Made By Hand. There will be nothing much else in the way of choice.

  343. diogen February 11, 2010 at 10:27 pm #

    Cuddlefly, I’m arriving at a conclusion that with Democrats and Republicans both irreparably corrupted and co-opted by various special interests, our only hope may be a third-party candidate not beholden to those assorted complexes. I hear and read a lot of conflicting things about Ron Paul, but it really doesn’t matter. If he can 1) Get elected and 2) Have the political capital necessary to reverse the direction and resist the various power centers, then we may avoid (or mitigate somewhat) the terrible consequences of the past 50 years of folly. What makes you think he can do these two things?

  344. diogen February 11, 2010 at 10:56 pm #

    To Vlad:
    Aber mein Freund — your post is as contradictory as it can be. On the one hand you say that intelligence is the only determinate of our racial/genetic superiority, but on the other hand you say that asians and jews are more intelligent than us, wouldn’t that make them superior to us?
    Actually, I understand you. Racial superiority is your basic belief, and everything else is based on that belief. The last thing I’ll say about this is that history is clear on cultures who believed they were “chosen” — it destroys them. Do you find it ironic that Hitler was responsible for TENS of MILLIONS of deaths of the best of the German nation (the Volk as you say), and untold misery and destruction of his own people? I find it as tragic as the concentration camps, the German people were as helpless against the evils of Nazism as were its other victims, perhaps more so because so many of them had jeopardized their souls not just their bodies. I’m not an expert on souls, but anyone who denies the humanity and human rights of other people may be jeopardizing his own soul. I don’t think God will be kindly disposed to those who demonize his children.
    Other than that, you and I actually agree on many things, such as achievements of our white anglo-saxon culture, the stupidity of our immigration policy, the dismal failure of the social welfare policies, etc. But I’m afraid that your hate of Americans of other races blinds you to the real existential danger facing us — Islamofashism and Chinese imperialism (and maybe resurgent Russian nationalism as well). My advice to you: chose your allies and enemies carefully, or you’re toast.

  345. ozone February 12, 2010 at 12:17 am #

    C-T,
    Think no more of it; I’m not easily offended.
    Thanks for that, though. I do sincerely appreciate it.

  346. cuddletuffy February 12, 2010 at 12:44 am #

    Hi Diogen,
    That is a good question. It is succinct, simple and well stated. I think the answer is not simple, but I will try and remain succinct and state my case well.
    Can he get elected? Well, sure he can. If he gets the majority of the votes, he will get elected. The more people who put aside the, “electa-bility”, concern, the greater his chances. Just being unafraid to vote for him or any other genuine anti-imperial-orthodoxy candidate increases the chances that the corrupt will at least compromise a little bit, because they do fear losing power. Without that power, they have to figure out how to fly in lear jets and make winning stock picks on their own merits. Most of them can’t I’m guessing.
    I used to live in Nancy Pelosi’s district. She wins every 2 years by 90% margins and refuses to engage in any debates. She is also a lead war-monger who put her own political ambitions ahead of her largely anti-war constituency. Well, apparently not anti-war enough. You see, they are a classic case of the liberal central-state-empire dilemma I described. They are afraid to punish her at the ballot box for fear a Republican would win.
    Well, what if the Republican was moderate and actually anti-war? Good! There isn’t a more important fiscal and social issue we face today. Or what if the Republican wasn’t anti-war but won, served 2 relatively harmless years, but the message to Scalpel-face Pelosi or the next Democrat candidate was, ‘you better not say you are against war, you better vote against funding it, and openly denounce it.’ Think Ms. Rhinoplasty or her successor would be more representative the next time? If it meant losing all of her perks and the connections that surely have made her wealthy over the years, I think she’d figure out a way to be more representative.
    We have to be less afraid. It is this fear of the other bad guy that the bad guys use to keep us under their thumb. Ron Paul’s entire career is a shining example to us. For 30 years he was rarely listened to. Now, because he stayed true and had the courage to remain true people see he was right. We should have the same courage. At this point we have nothing more to lose. At least send a message that we’ll lie down quietly.
    So you know, the entire 2006 election fiasco with the Democrats and MoveOn being hopelessly corrupt was the trigger for my transformation. You mentioned that you heard some bad things about Ron Paul. Well, with the Internet you can find hours of video and audio of him on YouTube and AntiWar.com radio … where you can actually here him explain why he votes the way he does. I used to be a, “liberal.” I no longer subscribe to any label or party, not even libertarian. What is the issue? Let’s discuss it and pay no regard to partisan considerations.
    Here is an interesting thing that relates to being electable. Ron Paul has served many 2 year terms in his very, “conservative”, district that is largely a farming district in Texas. He consistently votes against farm subsidies, and against war. I once saw him asked, “How do you get re-elected when you vote against farm subsidies and oppose the militarism and war in such a conservative district?” He responded, “I go back to the people in my district and I explain how the subsidies are actually bad for them, and how they are actually a theft that only benefit the big agri-business. I explain how the wars are un-constitutional, illegal, and how the empire is a major cause of taxation, inflation and destroys their wealth while making us less safe.” He gets challenged, but because he treats his constituents with dignity and honesty, they send him back because they are more informed. That is incredible if you think about it. How many politicians are trying to honestly inform and explain the nuances of economics to their constituents? We should all be so lucky.
    In short. He can get elected. Even if he doesn’t. If you vote for someone who is saying the truth instead of for a liar who is, “electable”, you will already transform the landscape. This is essential to understand. You are not throwing away your vote. Not when the margins of victory between the 2 wings of the War Party are small, but the spoils of victory are coveted and winning is meaningful. The key being, it isn’t bi-partisan. It is NON-partisan. There is a big difference. That is also essential to understand. The whole TeaPary thing is evidence. The Republican party is nearly irrelevent right now, so they are figuring out how to co-opt that legitimate grass roots movement and become relevant again. I think the next phase is the Democrats ship wrecking on the same rocks as the Republican ship. Evidence is you asking me what you’ve asked me. The next step is a recognition and coalition of, “right” and “left” wing people who realize they have a whole lot common. The Campaign For Liberty is the most well organized, from an idealogical standpoint, thing I have found to rally around.
    The second question is really interesting. Good one.
    First of all, if you are looking at someone like Ron Paul, his goal is actually to restore the Congress to its rightful place as the most powerful of the three branches of government. So, he would be the President and in an interesting position. He doesn’t want the President to be the dictator he has become. How could he reduce his power without using decree? Here is how.
    Dealing first with political capital, I think Ron Paul would have tremendous political capital. The reason is that he is completely honest. His mandate would be overwhelming because of its brutal honesty. To explain this we have to look at say, Obama’s mandate. Well, Obama doesn’t have much of a mandate because he is disengenous, and his promises are not even feasible. For his part on the Iraq withdrawal, he is playing the game of, “combat troops.” Well, what is a soldier? Are you saying we have soldiers who aren’t trained in combat? Are you saying that they are there to server hamburgers and deliver pizzas and not engage in combat? That is a blatant lie. Then there is the issue of the private military contractors, and the Vatican sized embassy and crawling with contractors and CIA operatives disguised as state department personnel and the massive bases in the desert. He simply ignored those facts because he doesn’t want to end them. So, he, with the complicity of the military, the military media, and the right wing ignore it.
    Obama has no mandate to end the Iraq occupation. Ron Paul would have a huge mandate. He would because he is saying unequivocally, I’ll will close all of our foreign bases, all 751 plus the secret bases, and bring all troops home. If Congress opposed him he would say, “The Constitution says only Congress could declare war. Congress abdicated its responsibility and gave the President a blank check for what became Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia and more. I will no longer prosecute those wars. Furthermore, the Congress cannot legally abdicate its responsibility to declare war, as it is illegal for it to not carry out and exercise all of its Constitutional duties and authorities. The Congress ought to really be impeached for doing so.”
    What would happen? Congress would be in a real pickle. They would be faced with an electorate that is obviously war weary, and have to say in the face of that. “Hello American people. The President does not want to prosecute our 3 current wars and maintain our $1 Trillion dollar a year empire err, national defense. We are declaring war.” Perhaps the people would already be calling in and working on the Congressional impeachment idea at that point.
    Paul would cease most of the CIA’s activities and likely tell Congress he doesn’t need but 10% of it. He can do this because it is under his authority. He certainly would move to cease it’s covert activities and put new leadership in place.
    JHK often expresses his disappointment that Obama hasn’t used his position to, if nothing else, break down the harsh realities to America; get honest with us to help us get honest with ourselves. Well, he will never do it because he is a politician, not a citizen interested in self-governence. His career is proof of that. Politicians like him, and Bush and pretty much the rest of the folks in power right now, are surrounded by large PR teams, and their mindset is to govern by perception management. They are elected as part of a machine and will put their power and the machines power above all else. What is the difference between spin/perception-management and propoganda? None that I can tell. They are always going to be deciding things based on staying elected, maintaining powerful constituencies … …
    Ron Paul, (and I should say guys like Mike Gravel and Dennis Kucinich, thouh I like Ron Paul over guys like Gravel and Kucinich because they are pretty clueless on issues of economics, whereas Ron Paul has much better understanding and comprehensive philosopy), are not politicians as much as people who really believe in their role in self-governance. Ron Paul won’t have to spin anything. He can make a speech and it means something because he hasn’t hid anything. He has said point blank that he would allow the collapse of ’08 to have occurred and that it would have been very painful. However, it would likely nearly be over by now, because all of the debt would be liquidated and the losses confined largely to the lenders and debtors who deserve to take them. He would have no problem he is trying to hide. That is what Washington and Wall St. are doing now. They are trying to hide the losses. He has said he will end the empire. Are there powerful interests opposing those forces? Of course. However, the plan is to pass the savings back to the American people once we pay down our debts. That is a painful process. Are there powerful forces that care about our country and will prosper once the yoke of the current power elite is removed from our necks? Absolutely. Do we have to realize some losses in order to gain? Absolutely. Will enough Americans accept it? If not will be forced upon us, and that will be worse.
    Ron Paul is not mincing words. As such, you know exactly what he will do. He knows it threatens very powerful interests. At the same time, he knows that if he got elected President the electorate would be very well informed as to the real issues and what he intended to do about them. Therefore, he would not be in any compromising position. Would he get assassinated? Perhaps. But, think about what it would mean to have that happen. You almost couldn’t assassinate him. The movement would be even stronger, because people would be so well informed. It would trigger violent revolution instead of peaceful revolution. I don’t think the elites want that because they can’t go quietly in that case. He is an interesting person to be certain. You know, he can be charged with being a racist the way Asoka and others do. If you don’t want to dig, then the slander will work. The interesting thing about Ron Paul is he won’t deny for a second any vote he is made. What he will do is explain why he voted the way he did. He leaves it up to you to figure out if his reasoning makes any sense.
    The battle is just beginning. I am really encouraged that you asked the questions that you did. I think it is imperative that you not accept my words or Asoka’s words or anybody elses and just go straight to the source. For a figure like Ron Paul, you definitely should watch a lot of YouTube on him. He also can’t be well understood alone. To really understand him you need to understand: the Constitution and the Jefferson vs. Hamilton origins of the Republic; alternative narratives of the Civil War; the history of the Federal Reserve. It sounds daunting, but it really isn’t. It is fun, and it well should be a course of study embraced by anyone interested in making up their own mind so we can be truly self-governed.
    Here are some references:
    1. YouTube copious Ron Paul speeches. The best ones are ones where he is on CSPAN just recording his minutes on the floor or in committee
    2. His Campaign For Liberty site has weekly updates.
    3. Thomas Woods – read “Meltdown”; his website has very good materials on Austrian economics designed for people like you and me to easily understand and learn
    4. I can’t find the links but Ron Paul, Lew Rockwell back in ’07 and ’08 had some good videos and audio tracing the history of conservatism and neo-conservatism and neo-liberalism. They renounced neo-conservatism and clearly stated their positions being, anti-empire, anti-war, pro-peace, anti-tax, pro-liberty. I found it fascinating and convincing to hear
    5. Historians like Ivan Eland are interesting. Search for Ron Paul interviews Ivan Eland on YouTube. Tom di Lorenzo has a totally different take on Lincoln and the Civil War that at the least is worth a lot of though and consideration.
    6. Antiwar.com is great. My favorite contributors are: Justin Raimondo; Ivan Eland; Charles Pena; Scott Horton’s radio interviews are great. He interviews people across the political spectrum at AntiwarRadio.com. There is a real movement there to find common ground on the war/empire issue with folks on the, “right”, and the, “left.”

  347. asoka February 12, 2010 at 12:47 am #

    First of all, I haven’t seen any facts presented by you that are clear, unambiguous, irrefutable proof that Ron Paul is dangerous to society or that he is a racist.

    cuddletuffy, you have made a number of charges against me and you are forcing a long post (which Qshtik promises not to read)…
    Instead of responding to all your charges, I will start with whether or not Ron Paul is a racist and anti-gay.
    You state that you have never seen any evidence prsented by me. You think I am conjecturing and not speaking based on facts?
    Let’s look then, to Ron Paul’s published writing for evidence that he is racist and anti-gay.
    There are issues of newsletters Ron Paul published on file in the archives of the University of Kansas and the Wisconsin Historical Society. I will provide some quotes from them. These are not my interpretations, or my opinions about Ron Paul, or assumptions, or conjecture. These are from Ron Paul’s newsletters.
    June 1990:

    The Pink House? What an outrage that, for the first time in our nation’s history, the organized forces of perversion were feted in the White House…. I miss the closet. Homosexuals, not to speak of the rest of society, were far better off when social pressure forced them to hide their activities. They could also not be as promiscuous. Is it any coincidence that the AIDS epidemic developed after they came ‘out of the closet,’ and started hyper-promiscuous sodomy? I don’t believe so, medically or morally.

    October 1990:

    A mob of black demonstrators, led by the “Rev.” Al Sharpton, occupied and closed the Statue of Liberty recently, demanding that New York be renamed Martin Luther King City “to reclaim it for our people.”
    Hmmm. I hate to agree with the Rev. Al, but maybe a name change is in order. Welfaria? Zooville? Rapetown? Dirtburg? Lazyopolis?
    But Al, the Statue of Liberty? Next time, hold that demonstration at a food stamp bureau or a crack house.

    November 1990:

    [David] Duke’s platform called for tax cuts, no quotas, no affirmative action, no welfare, and no busing…. To many voters, this seems like just plain good sense. Duke carried baggage from his past, but the voters were willing to overlook that. And if he had been afforded the forgiveness an ex-communist gets, he might have won.

    December 1990:

    Many Americans belong to the Smithsonian Institution, which is charged with collecting artifacts that reflect the spirit of American history. But now homosexuals are being asked to contribute memorabilia of their struggle for “civil rights.” The Smithsonian is planning an exhibit to advance the gay political agenda, which is uniformly statist.

    December 1990:

    [Martin Luther King, Jr.] was also a comsymp, if not an actual party member, and the man who replaced the evil of forced segregation with the evil of forced integration. King, the FBI files show, was not only a world-class adulterer, he also seduced underage girls and boys. The Rev. Ralph David Abernathy revealed before his death that King had made a pass at him many years before. And we are supposed to honor this “Christian minister” and lying socialist satyr with a holiday that puts him on a par with George Washington?

    January 1991:

    Martin Luther King: Socialist: St. Martin was a world-class philanderer who beat up his paramours (“non-violence” didn’t apply in all spheres, I guess). He was a flagrant plagiarist with a phony doctorate. He replaced forced segregation in a few states with forced integration in all states. And he was a dedicated socialist. What a guy. He probably deserves two holidays…. In 1988 when I ran for president on the Libertarian Party ticket, I was berated for hours by LP members because I had refused to vote, while in Congress,f or a Martin Luther King national holiday. I didn’t know then about his plagiarism, but the rest of King’s crimes were clear. J. Edgar Hoover once called him “the most dangerous man in America.” Who could have known the danger would continue after his death and threaten to strangle our culture?

    January 1994:

    [G]ays in San Francisco do not obey the dictates of good sense. They have stopped practicing “safe sex.”… First, these men don’t really see a reason to live past their fifties. They are not married, they have no children, and their lives are centered on new sexual partners. These conditions do not make one’s older years the happiest. Second, because sex is the center of their lives, they want it to be as pleasurable as possible, which means unprotected sex. Third, they enjoy the attention and pity that comes with being sick.

    There’s more in the newsletters; much more. Over and over, we see a Ron Paul obsessed with homosexuality and with the big breaks he sees the government and society giving to black people.
    These sentiments–along with seething hatred of the federal government, open celebration of anti-government militias, and a warm embrace of bizarre conspiracy theories–are the rule, not the exception.
    Whether Paul wrote every word in his newsletters or not, it is inconceivable that the views expressed repeatedly in them, (which he published for two decades, under his name, in words he represented as being written by him ), do not represent the views of Ron Paul himself.

  348. asoka February 12, 2010 at 1:32 am #

    Just a short comment on Ron Paul’s views on war. In 1988, if you listened to his words as a presidential candidate (you can find interviews of Ron Paul on YouTube), you will hear him say: “Congress is responsible for defending the country” (Article 1 of the Constitution expressly gives Congress the power to “declare war”)
    That is what Ron Paul said as a presidential candidate. Now, let’s look at what Ron Paul actually did when he was a member of Congress. Did he reserve the right as a Congressman to vote to “declare war”, which was his responsibility as a Congressman? Did he insist on due deliberation?
    No, when we were attacked on 9/11 he voted on 09/14/2001 to turn over his power to President Bush, to give Bush a blank check with no Congressional oversight, by voting on 9/14/2001 for the Authorization for Use of Military Force (H J Res 64).
    Congress can “debate” for years on some issues, and not act. Congress should have insisted on its right, with regard to declaring war, to debate and do some fact-finding, instead of being stampeded into turning over its power to the President.
    I can give lots more examples of how Ron Paul says one thing and then, when it comes time to vote, his actions are not in congruence with his words, but these posts are already too long.

  349. asoka February 12, 2010 at 1:52 am #

    In 2001 Ron Paul voted to give the President the authority to wage war (abdicating the power given by the Constitution to Congress)
    Then in 2007 Ron Paul voted for the Iraq War Policy Resolution (H Con Res 63) to “express disapproval” of the decision made by President George W. Bush (announced on January 10, 2007), to deploy more than 20,000 additional United States combat troops to Iraq. Like Bush cared. Ron Paul had already given away his power, and had not done his Constitutional duty.
    “Express disapproval” … WTF?
    That’s like opening the barn door and then “expressing disapproval” that the cows are getting out!
    Ron Paul. Weak.

  350. cuddletuffy February 12, 2010 at 4:05 am #

    Asoka,
    I admit that those clips are disturbing, and even if not his words, that if they were in his newsletters then they are words that he endorsed.
    However, I have to say, that passages addressing MLK I don’t see any racial slurs. He calls him a communist, which MLK was effectively a communist, and it turned out that he was a philanderer. I personally don’t think the philandering make him any less the avatar of humanity he was nor does the communism though I am not a philanderer or communist myself.
    But we aren’t discussing my opinion. So let’s go to some of the clips. Note that he said, “they replaced the evil of forced segregation with the evil of forced integration.” He called forced segregation evil. How is that racist? That is the antithesis of racism and seems like a very clear refutation of Jim Crow – calling it evil. The point of libertarianism is that all interactions between humankind must be voluntary and not forced, and that voluntary associations cannot be refused by violent means. That isn’t racist Asoka. Libertarians believe that the only remedy for the residual evils of slavery is an evolutionary process that will only be solved by maximum personal liberty and economic opportunity for all individuals. Do some racists find Libertarian philosophy a convenient mask for racism? Surely. Do some racists find welfare-liberalism a convenient mask for their closet racism in much the same way some gay people remain closeted in shame or out of desire to keep their personal life personal? Surely. I don’t see any conclusive proof that Doctor Paul is a racist from this.
    The David Duke thing is weird. It makes sense that he agrees with the anti-welfare, anti-forced busing, anti-quotas and anti-affirmative action part of Duke’s platform. David Duke was a former Klansman. Did his platform at the time state that he wanted to legalize the Klan and their activities? Did Ron Paul ever endorse such an explicit platform? No. Ron Paul renounces all violence toward all individuals that deprive them of their life, liberty and property. Has Ron Paul ever legalized or proposed legalizing, assault, murder, theft, extortion, rape or other Klan activities? No.
    I don’t agree with the stance against affirmative action. I think that if our nation doesn’t pay explicit reparations to the ancestors of slaves, that should be regarded as reparations. However, I do understand why some people oppose affirmative action. I think that someday the black community will lead the charge against it. Maybe not in our lifetime. I don’t think being opposed to affirmative action makes someone racist.
    Strict adherence to maintaining a meritocracy, (likely Ron Paul’s position), is orthogonal to being racist. It certainly isn’t proof that someone is or isn’t racist. I know people who believe in affirmative action, welfare, (forgetting that far more white americans are on welfare than black americans), symbolic legislation, mindlessly clapping for douchebags like Al Sharpton as proof that they, “like blacks”, but who are ridiculously racist. You could argue that since a racist believes another race is inferior that the desire and belief that all people regardless of race should be held to the same standards is proof of non-racism. I think in Paul’s case it has more to do with a strong belief in maintaining a strict meritocracy, and is not an indicator of racism. He is openly and honestly opposed to affirmative action. Has he ever said or legislated that any racial minority be denied admission to school they qualify for? I don’t see definitive proof that opposing affirmative action makes Ron Paul or anyone a racist. That is after all what we are debating here.
    Ron Paul is against all forms of welfare. He believes that private charities should address poverty in our communities. You or I may not agree with that or the harsh criticism of Martin Luther King. However, the criticism is that he is a communist and a philanderer. Your claiming that it is racist, but I don’t see any racial slurs. Being against welfare, particularly in Paul’s case where he opposes the entire welfare state is not proof of racism. If he said, white people deserve welfare, but black people don’t it would be a different matter. Where is proof that he said that? I’d go farther, he calls the military-industrial complex welfare. So, he is more egalitarian than any liberal I know, because he not only opposes welfare for poor people of all races he opposes welfare for really rich people who are predominately white. He is very principled and color-blind in his opposition to welfare, particularly rebuking welfare for rich destroyers of life, liberty and property.
    Al Sharpton is roundly criticized as a charleton, even by critics within the black community. Watch the Boondocks, which is hilarious, and see what they think of his, “activism.” The picture they paint is not that different from what appeared in that newsletter. Al Sharpton, it can be well argued, is a self-aggrandizing opportunist whose tired arguments for more welfare and shameless stunts like, “reclaiming New York City for our people”, have done nothing substantive for helping black people become self-sufficient nor helped race relations. If anything they often do quite the opposite, though he seems to keep himself in nice suits and that fancy hairdo always well-kept.
    I don’t think the words were well chosen, but has Sharpton really done anything substantive to help lift people out of the morass, of filth, poverty, drug addiction and other problems? As compared to say, anonymous entrepreneurs and volunteers in the black community who don’t funnel a dime into their own pockets, or working class people who work hard and their children choose ever brighter futures using their parents, relatives and friends as role models completely independent of maybe even inspite of folks like Rev Al Sharpton? I think Sharpton deserves the round rebukes he gets from the people from the community at large who smell a self-serving charleton whenever he shows up looking to incite controversy, get publicity, line his pockets and convince people who aren’t that smart that he is doing something to help them.
    The passages about the gay community are ignorant. Though there are some very small segments of the gay community that are promiscuous with reckless abandon they aren’t the norm, and categorizing them all that way is wrong. However, does he say they don’t have rights? No. He says quite the opposite.
    Here is his voting record and beliefs about “gay rights” and civil liberties:
    1. He voted against the Constitutional Amendment to ban gay marriage
    2. “All voluntary associations, whether they are economic or social, should be protected by the law.”
    3. More Comprehensive View on civil liberties:






    4. “… gay rights, women’s rights, minority rights. I see only one kind of rights, the individual rights. The individual has the right to their life and their liberty and everybody should be treated equally.” – Ron Paul
    They seem almost desperate. Who is the paranoid conspiracy theorist here?
    I’m sorry Asoka, but your evidence is sorely lacking. I still only see conjecture and opinion, rather than irrefutable proof. Ron Paul despises MLK and Al Sharpton because they were communists. I see inflamatory language, and ignorant comments, but when I listen to the words that come out of Ron Paul’s mouth I have never heard him in your quoted passages or anywhere say at anytime or advocate at any time for any racial minority or gay minority as having any less rights to peace, prosperity, freedom of voluntary behavior and association than any other person.
    I have never heard of him passing a law that takes rights away from people that are not part of what the Enlightenment dubbed, “The Natural Rights of Man”, that our country is founded upon.
    It is still conjecture. As for the other points I’ve made you continue to evade them. The answer is simple. You are stuck in a partisan narrative. A narrative that says that you have to explicitly state that you are not a racist or anti-gay by following a political orthodoxy otherwise some political pontious will crucify you on a cross of slander.
    Ron Paul doesn’t believe that welfare eliminates poverty. Is he wrong about that? Has he ever advocated that it is okay for white people to get welfare but not black people or gay people? No. Across the board he doesn’t believe in welfare. That isn’t a racist belief. It is a belief in the individual and individual dignity. You may disagree with his dislike of welfare, but it doesn’t make him racist.
    He doesn’t believe that assigning any rights to specific minorities are necessary, because if you enforce the law and treat everyone equal under the law, it won’t be necessary. We have laws against assault, murder, larceny, supporting free-assembly, free-speech, and more. Enforce them equally for all individuals is what he supports. That is not racist. It is antithetical to being racist.
    He doesn’t believe that forced busing solves the problems of race relations. Has it? It didn’t in my schools. People still segregated themselves largely. Is he wrong that the only path to true equality is through voluntary association? The de-segregation that did occur in my school and my life after school all happened by voluntary association.
    I have news for you Asoka. There is a black middle class – lower, middle and upper. Black people don’t want white people to pat them on the head and say, “See. Thank me cuz I allowed you to be free. And if it wasn’t for me you would still be poor and uneducated.” They hate that stuff. They are just like every human being with pride and dignity. They don’t want to be taxed or told what to do. They don’t want to see white people lording a debt of gratitude over them so they can assuage their white guilt. They know that politicians can vote for symbolic legislation and still be opposed to their individual self-interest and well-being. They too want their kids to get the best education at the best school for their children.
    I make the point again. The libertarian philosophy as applies to race relations sounds remarkably like Malcom X or Marcus Garvey and countless other leaders and movements in black communities across America over the centuries who espoused independence, self-determination, self-education, ownership … as a means to a better life. Ron Paul believes exactly as they did – that human beings can only improve their condition through exercise of their free will. I guess when they say it it isn’t racist but when a white guy does it is in your mind. His opposition to welfare is two-fold – you can’t deprive one person of their property to give to another – besides it only leads to everyone’s impoverishment; a permanent welfare system does the opposite of its stated intent – it creates dependence and is a shackle to poverty.
    You continue to evade my points about the real issues that matter and how they are beneficial to all of society. In reality, Ron Paul’s politics are not racist or discriminatory to the gay/lesbian community. Even the argument to tax advantages via gay marriage are addressed by Ron Paul. He’ll eliminate the income tax. Now, take those savings, go find a church and get married if you so choose and spend another week of honeymoon on that gay cruise ship if you want is his answer to that.
    When you have writings or video of Ron Paul using racial slurs that are explicitly racist or of him proposing legislation that actually discriminates against minorities by denying them rights that he would assign to others you have a point.
    Call me blind but I don’t see it. I also don’t see any attempt to address my points about how he is combatting racism and a whole host of evils by taking on the issues I’ve raised. He doesn’t want to do it in the name of gay people or black people. He wants to do it in the name of all individuals respecting our universal humanity.
    My guess is that you are a good person but that you disagree with the Libertarian ideology, and are conditioned to believe that if someone doesn’t adhere to the orthodox political rituals that, “prove”, that a politician is not a racist or homophobe it therefore proves that they are. Do you know how many ardently racist, crooked, no-good criminal politicians, -black, white, hispanic, … – have supported civil-rights legislation over the years but completely screwed their constituencies?
    It is tough to wrap your mind around Ron Paul and Libertarianism. You have to let go of the political dogma that has evolved over the years.
    I am not an official Libertarian nor do I agree with Ron Paul on all issues. I don’t know if he is personally a racist or not. I haven’t seen irrefutable proof of it from you Asoka.
    You have offered no refutation of my arguments that Ron Paul’s policy positions have remedies that are more beneficial to racial minorities than to society as a whole since they are disproportionately more negatively affected than society as a whole by the problems of imperialism; welfare/warfare state; perpetual war; inflation; income tax. You can ignore these facts, but more and more people everyday are waking up and connecting the dots that the tired old orthodox narrative of left/right politics wants to leave scattered in a sea of ignorance and slander.

  351. cuddletuffy February 12, 2010 at 5:01 am #

    Asoka,
    You are disingenuous; a fraud. Ron Paul voted against the war on Iraq in 2002 from the very beginning. In doing so, he roundly rebuked and renounced that bill as illegally and immorally giving an open-ended blank check for pre-emptive and perpetual war. Paul, 5 other Republicans and 12 Democrats voted AGAINST that bill. (See video below for Paul’s renunciation in the House and in greater detail w/ Bill Moyers)
    The legislation in 2001 was a bill authorizing a limited use of military force to aid in solving the crime perpetrated on 9/11. It is distinctly different than the vote for pre-emptive war 2002. Congressperson Barbara Lee was the only representative with the foresight to vote against the 2001 measure.
    Here are my references:
    1*






    2*






    3* http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Authorization_for_Use_of_Military_Force_Against_Iraq_Resolution_of_2002#Republicans_2
    4* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorization_for_Use_of_Military_Force_Against_Terrorists
    * Ron Paul has voted NO on ALL war funding. That is an irrefutable fact.
    Asoka, you selectively chose this one thing and conveniently left out other portions of the record. You are like Rummy and Bush. You are looking for facts to support your case for your war against Ron Paul.
    We all appreciate you exposing your methods in such a transparent way. Good One. This kind of misleading narrative is dishonest, disrespectful and shameful.

  352. cuddletuffy February 12, 2010 at 5:05 am #

    Ron Paul voted against the 2002 Iraq war resolution, explicitly rebuking the illegal and immoral blank check it gave for open-ended, perpetual war. Paul, 5 Republicans and 12 Democrats voted against that bill. Ron Paul has vote NO on all war spending.
    Don’t believe me though:
    1*






    2*






    3* http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Authorization_for_Use_of_Military_Force_Against_Iraq_Resolution_of_2002#Republicans_2
    4* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorization_for_Use_of_Military_Force_Against_Terrorists
    Note that the 2001 resolution was for responding to the crimes perpetrated on 9/11. Follow up and see the renunciations Paul has made against the war on terror yourself.

  353. David M. February 12, 2010 at 1:39 pm #

    What I love most about Jimbo is his incurable optimism.

  354. trippticket February 12, 2010 at 5:43 pm #

    “It isn’t quite tribal living, but I guarantee you, what you are doing is free market economics and that it will be the free market that will be adhered to in a World Made By Hand. There will be nothing much else in the way of choice.”
    That’s pretty much the way I see it, as if what my wife and I are engaged in right now is basically early adoption of behavioral innovation, based on market realities instead of smoke and mirrors, in preparation for a society that’s ultimately heading the same direction en masse. It’s a weird place to be, and people are going to need help, and models for new human systems based on local abundance, seasonality, and very small village economies. As a bonus, “luxury” will have a meaning again.
    Personally, I think the entire field of economics, boom to bust, is predicated upon the concept of scarcity. Which is part and parcel of the linear, agrarian, growth economy. Petroleum, coal, NG, doesn’t matter. It’s all an inevitable part of the growth pattern we chose when we decided to grow crops intensively instead of exercise some self-control over our population numbers.
    Agrarian religions don’t exactly encourage population control (read: sustainable land use) either, do they?
    Boom-bust cycles, from what I can tell, have simply been market manipulations – through interest rates largely, and the media more recently – engineered by the banking elite. There’s an internodal space of middle class expansion and wealth building, followed by the nodes, or busts, where that accumulated wealth is “redistributed” to the people who need it most: the central banking families. Reverse socialism, if you will, disguised as “the free market.”
    Not that it’s not brilliant.
    But it’s this concept of the free market that seems almost unpatriotic to not support, according to the right, and this concept of the free market that is comprehensively unsustainable from my vantage point.
    If the true definition of free market economics is as you describe, then that is precisely where we are headed. IMHO.
    My overarching point in all this though is that on the grandest of levels, global energy production, especially in the form most useful to our particular economy, has peaked and will be declining, more or less, for a long time.
    In natural ecosystems, that has a profound effect on how the members of a population interact and behave. Specifically, biodiversity and the number of cooperative, symbiotic relationships rise significantly. There’s not enough free energy left to support long food chains, because the length of a food chain corresponds to how much energy is embedded in that food chain. Shorter, less energetic food chains tend to not support top predators. Australia is a great example, where continental fertility on the whole is low; diverse, cooperative ecosystems abound; and there are no large carnivores. Australia also tends to be at the vanguard of innovative, sustainable land use for the same reason.
    I’m sure you see where I’m going with this, and of course I think humans on Earth are required to obey the same system energetics laws as the yeast in a barrel. Radical as that may be to some.
    So, per this discussion, I think it’s safe to say:
    The Free Market = The Laws of Nature
    and anyone who thinks they won’t have to follow the rules will be in for a rude awakening. However, it’s my experiential opinion that giving the finger to the formal economy and realigning with natural law is MORE rewarding, spiritually and psychologically, than peak economy ever was. Sell that one if you can.
    Tripp out.

  355. cuddletuffy February 12, 2010 at 7:10 pm #

    Once again this is a false and misleading narrative.
    I’ll be brief and let my references speak for themselves.
    There were 2 Auth of Force resolutions – one in 2001 and one in 2002. The first was a resolution in 2001 that authorized limited use of the military in police action against those who perpetrated the 9/11 crimes. Barbara Lee was the sole House of Rep member to vote against this bill.
    The resolution passed in 2002 Authorized Use of Force Against Iraq. Ron Paul voted AGAINST this resolution along with 5 other Republicans and 12 Democrats. Ron Paul resoundingly renounced the resolution as illegal, immoral and leading to open-ended, pre-emptive war. I repeat this was in 2002. Video of his denouncement on the House Floor and a more elaborate renunciation and warning to the American people were given by Ron Paul in an extensive interview with Bill Moyers the day the 2002 AUF was passed.
    Witness:
    *






    *






    * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorization_for_Use_of_Military_Force_Against_Iraq_Resolution_of_2002
    * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorization_for_Use_of_Military_Force_Against_Terrorists
    Asoka’s scholastic honesty and techniques remind me of the Rumsfeld/Cheney methods of making a case. Shameful.

  356. Laura Louzader February 12, 2010 at 7:43 pm #

    To Cuddletuffy: I wish I had written your latest series of posts-agree wholeheartedly. I have nothing to add.
    To Vlad: I agree that no one should be forced to subsidize something he or she considers immoral, or which would cause him injury, or from which he derives no benefit. And, as a Libertarian Feminist, I agree that socialist feminism is a disaster, extremely unfair to men and boys, and additionally infantalizes women and encourages them to think of themselves as defenseless victims rather than responsible adults in control fo themselves and their destinies.
    Therefore, I’ll make a deal with you and others who differ from me on matters of personal morality, public policy, and national priorities.
    I will not make you pay for abortion, or even contraception or sterilization, or for educational and arts programs you do not approve of, or whatever else you may disapprove of or feel is inimical to your interests and well being if only I and others are relived of subsidizing interstate highways, airports, sports venues, water reclamation projects to make the desert liveable, or private, charter, or religious schools whose orientation and underlying creed or philosophy I disagree with. Nor should I be forced to subsidize big box retail, or contribute to any of the alphabet soup of socialized housing programs (section 8, FHA, Ginnie, Freddie, Fannie), not the Sallie Mae student loan trap, nor any of the bureaucracies attendant upon any of the above, either directly through direct subsidies, loans and grants, nor indirectly through tax abatements, tax deductions, TIF districts, or any other government-sponsored and financed incentive.
    Likewise, I will relieve others of making loan guarantees or providing other taxpayer backed financing to nuclear power plants, railroads, and other useful things, as long as I don’t have to finance “green” pipedreams like wind and solar projects, or hybrid cars, or cap and trade.

  357. mean dovey cooledge February 12, 2010 at 10:04 pm #

    “However, it’s my experiential opinion that giving the finger to the formal economy and realigning with natural law is MORE rewarding, spiritually and psychologically, than peak economy ever was. Sell that one if you can.”
    SOLD!

  358. Vlad Krandz February 13, 2010 at 12:59 am #

    No, you don’t get me at all – most of the time you’re obviously not even talking to me but just to yourself. You make up things that I never said and then refute them. Other times you just ignore whole parts of my argument – such as the crucial relationship between genes and memes.
    Now where did I ever say that only IQ mattered? I have always said that it’s necessary but not sufficient for a high morality. Environment and upbringing are also key – high IQ people not excepted. You and your ilk are the ones who deny completely any genetic factors in IQ or anything else. And yet you say we are the closed minded ones!
    A parallel: Say I feel my country is best. You provide all kinds of arguments to refute my feelings. They may be true, but (and this is what you don’t get) it just doesn’t matter. My country and culture always going to be the best ones for me. I don’t claim objective superiority in every way for Whites, I only claim Kinship and Loyalty. What on Earth is so hard to understand about this? If you don’t get it, it just means you are lacking a big piece of what it means to be human. If IQ was all that mattered, yeah then I’d be an Asian or Jewish Supremacist. But I’m against dominance by those groups as well as low IQ groups -in my own Land. All those people feel the same way I do about their own Cultures and Countries. And because we both have loyalty and love, I can understand them far more than you ever will. How can you understand those people when you can’t even understand your own?
    Your last paragraph provides a clue perhaps: you’re some kind of Neo-Con Globalist who wants to foist Western Culture on everyone – even as you water it down and destroy it in the Homelands of the West. Well your understanding of the West is ideological and not visceral, and thus very artificial. And your intentions towards the rest of the World are vicious in the extreme. Things are what they are because they’re not something else. We are the West because we are not China. The Chinese are Chinese because they’re not Western. What could be simpler? Good boundaries make good neighbors. Eliminate boundaries and you no longer have neighbors just invaders – like poorly differentiated cancer cells who have to keep expanding in order to feel real. Your idea of love I suppose.

  359. Vlad Krandz February 13, 2010 at 1:11 am #

    Thank you Asoka. This is what I said you were right about. The Establishment would have used these quotes to destroy Ron Paul, even thought they are just the attitudes and beliefs of a normal man. As far as “Dr” King goes, you must know that all this has been substantiated; that King was a monster of depravity; that he prefered White prostitutes to Black (discrimination!) and that he used to beat both; that he spent his last night on earth with a prostitute. Stop being a hypocrite – King was a creation of the Communists and their running dog lackeys, the Media.
    Poor Cuddles didn’t know! There alot you don’t know Cuddles. Stick around.

  360. cuddletuffy February 13, 2010 at 1:13 am #

    test

  361. Vlad Krandz February 13, 2010 at 1:29 am #

    Thank you Laura – I deeply appreciate your good will towards men. It is most rare. You are a Gentlewoman – the word lady has no necessary moral connotation.
    You are logically consistent, again most rare in a woman or anybody to this degree. But I can’t follow you here. Libertariansim takes away everything and just leaves Nature. As Trip says, the Law of the Market=Law of Nature which is the law of the big fish eating the little fish. What is left? In an unguarded moment, Margaret Thatcher told a reporter that she didn’t really believe in Society, but individuals. And the Goverment was just the enforcer of contracts. Well Laura, that will just lead us back to Early Feudalism. The Corporate Elite want to go back to late Feudalism which had Kings and an ultimate Emperor.

  362. cuddletuffy February 13, 2010 at 1:30 am #

    This is more lying and deception from Asoka. Here are the facts. (Note: I’ve made this post several times, at least 5, with video clips and links to the congressional voting records that corroborate my accounting of the facts. For some reason, they didn’t get posted.)
    There were 2 Authorizations to Use Force – one in 2001 on in 2002.
    * The AUF in 2001 was worded to give the military limited specific authority to help arraign or kill the perpetrators of the crimes of 9/11. Barabara Lee was the sole person who voted against that bill.
    * The AUF in 2002 was the Authorization to Use Force Against Iraq. Ron Paul voted AGAINST this bill and vehemently renounced it as illegal, immoral and explicitly warned that it was a dangerous tool for Bush to wage, illegal open-ended, pre-emptive wars.
    The video clips are of Dr. Paul stating this on the House Floor 10/8/2002 and in a more elaborate refutation and warning to the American public of the dangers of this bill in an interview with Bill Moyers on 10/4/2002.
    * Ron Paul has voted against every single bill to wage war and to fund these illegal wars.
    * Ron Paul consistently and unwaveringly since 1972 has stated and voted that only Congress can declare war.
    I wonder if Asoka, if you worked for Cheney and Rumsfeld over at the Office of Special Plans. Your lies and propaganda bear a striking resemblance to their shoddy handiwork.
    NOTE:
    For the videos search youtube for:
    1. Ron Paul Iraq War 2002 – You should get his house speech and interview with Bill Moyers.
    2. The details on the 2 pieces of legislation and who voted for and against can be found on wikipedia by searching for “Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Terrorists”.

  363. cuddletuffy February 13, 2010 at 1:39 am #

    I need to point out that while I argued against Asoka’s claims about Ron Paul it doesn’t mean I agree with him on all issues.
    I disassociate myself from Vlad’s slander of Dr. Martin Luther King. MLK was one of the great avatar’s of the human spirit in modern and all of history.
    It is clear that he understood the link between empire, war and poverty. Ironically, it is this that MLK and Dr. Ron Paul have in common. MLK renounced Vietnam against the wishes of his own constituency. He was on a path that, for all we know, would have seen him become increasingly at odds with the state. In his speech against the Vietnam War, he acknowledged how the War defunded the social welfare gains. It is likely he understood how the social welfare state gains were a Faustian bargain as part of LBJ’s Guns and Butter program to keep the war going – not good-hearted humanitarianism.
    Who knows, maybe he would have lived to renounce the welfare state as evidence of its evils mounted. He and Malcom X were moving closer together in partnership. Then as Zach de la Rocha says, “he spoke out on Vietnam, then came the shot!”
    Leave me out of the MLK bashing. His insights into humanity and ability to stir the human spirit were unparalleled in his time. What he did in his personal life was between him, his acquaintances and his God.
    Signing off of CFN for a while now. Got a life to live.

  364. oiligarch February 13, 2010 at 12:39 pm #

    This ongoing comment stream really gets my steam up! Chuffa chuffa; choo choo! Especially comments such as “King was a creation of the communists and their running dog lackeys, the Media”.
    Now, I know the Eugenicist likes to bait the folks on this site. He gets a big kick out of going around and around with you guys; it balances his narcissistic equilibrium by helping him feel superior to you.
    Gotta hand it to the Eugenicist though; the brazen nature of this ideological balderdash got my blood boiling there for a minute. Haven’t felt like that sense the sixties arguing about Viet-Nam.
    Oddly enough he will also throw in statements like
    “The Corporate elite want to go back to late Feudalism which had Kings and an ultimate Emperor.” which I couldn’t agree with more.
    However, having worked shoulder to shoulder with:
    “Blacks”, “Browns”, “Yellows”, “Reds”, “Pinks”,
    “Greys”, “Purples”, “Greens” and “Whites”; I have found labeling people according to their skin pigmentation or “IQ” a rather pointless endeavor.
    In fact,on the jobs I’ve worked; it is the (skin pigmentation) people who are consistently more sensible and intelligent than the (inevitably)
    pink, preppy dumb-shits who are making the decisions about what everyone else should do.
    We always end up having to do things over again because the college edge-a-macated fools have their heads shoved up their posteriors and refuse to listen to their “inferiors”.
    It is really bad in combat situations when good men are killed because of the decisions these (pink-male) idiots make. Sorry about the bias but I’ve been burned too many times by blow-dried, yuppie (pink-male) dip-shits.
    I sho-nuff have had a lot of good laughs with my BLACK and BROWN brothers. They are good people ,absolutely the best, hands down.
    Dr. King was VERY courageous to speak against the slaughter in Viet-Nam and he paid for it with his one-and-only, God-given life.
    I know I’m a traitor my own race but those swastika-waving, hate-spouting, white-male
    Neonazi knuckleheads really turn my stomach
    with the mindless bigotry that they espouse.
    Maybe even worse than the highly-paid, flag-waving, hate-mongering, pink-male ideologues
    on the USA-McPetroculture, maudlin, infotainment shows.

  365. asoka February 13, 2010 at 1:50 pm #

    Ron Paul is irrelevant. As Qshtik said, he’ll never be elected to higher office.
    But beyond that Ron Paul is a traitor to libertarian values and a hypocrite. Don’t listen to what he says, watch how he votes.
    For example, he says he is against big government and against deficit spending. Fine, but when the PAYGO bill came up for vote, Ron Paul voted against it!
    The Statutory Pay-As-You-Go Act passed on July 22, 2009 by a bipartisan vote of 265-166.
    Ron Paul voted against the Estate Tax Law Amendments and Reinstatement of PAYGO
    (HR 4154) on 12/03/2009.
    The PAYGO bill reestablishes the pay-as-you-go budgeting rules that helped us achieve the balanced budgets of the 1990’s.
    PAYGO requires any new spending initiatives to be paid for; if they are not offset, automatic cuts are triggered. Libertarians should be for that!
    PAYGO is a good first step in getting the federal government back to the common sense practice of paying for what we buy.
    Ron Paul was a hypocrite for voting against it. Not once, but twice. He voted against it again this year (2010) when Ron Paul voted “NO” on the Reinstating PAYGO Budget Rule legislations (HJR 45) on 02/04/2010. That’s February 2010.
    Ron Paul is no libertarian. He is a Republican who willingly goes along with the Republican agenda to say NO to everything in their attempt to bring down the first Black president.

  366. asia February 13, 2010 at 1:53 pm #

    ‘Ron Paul has voted against every single bill to wage war and to fund these illegal wars.’
    So sadly he wont be president? The powers that be like war, as do our fellow countrymen.

  367. wagelaborer February 13, 2010 at 1:54 pm #

    Ron Paul has a lot of good things to say. I, of course, totally disagree about abortion.
    I find it interesting that the anti-abortion people disregarded my info on God’s abortions. Somewhere around 30% of all fertilized eggs get unceremoniously bled out in the first trimester. If God considers them so precious, WTF?
    Too inconvenient a truth?
    As for standing by his beliefs, I used to listen to Alex Jones (another right winger who is against war) and he pointed out that Ron Paul backed down on 9-11 truth. Unlike Cynthia McKinney, who is trashed way more than Ron Paul by the corporate media.

  368. wagelaborer February 13, 2010 at 2:18 pm #

    As I suspected, you equate “America” with the US war machine. I don’t.
    You think that the US doesn’t have any plans to dominate the world. They expressly do. The Project for a New American Century wanted to dominate not just the world, but space. They dominated the Bush administration and Obama is continuing their project.
    Whether they can or not is a different question than whether they are trying.
    To dismiss their efforts is to dismiss the pain and suffering of millions of people that have felt the impact of US imperialism.
    My Dad was born in England, and a more civilized person you’ll never know. How is facing up to the history of the US denying the fact we are based on British culture? Except, of course, that we have given up the best of our culture when we gave up the rule of law and habeus corpus.
    Also, read Kevin Phillips “The Cousins Wars” for an interesting take on the difference between the settlers of the coast and the settlers of the South and the mountains. They weren’t the same people! They didn’t have the same culture, even if they came from the same islands. So if the descendants of those cultures still have differences, it’s not so much snobbishness. Unless, you secretly feel the coast people are superior. Because if you go to the fly-over country, they definitely think that they are superior also. You’re taking sides with the educated against those who take great pride in being uneducated.
    To disregard the fact that we are living on land that was stolen from people that we mostly wiped out, and that we used people kidnapped and sold into slavery to help build that land, is to deny history.
    Right now, the media is having fits over Israel and the Palestinians.
    I find this rank hypocrisy.
    Screaming about 1200 dead Palestinians and the theft of Palestinian land, while the US sits on thousands of miles of stolen land, calling what happened to the 500,000 displaced Palestinians “genocide”, (those 500,000 are 60 years later 5,000,000) while the remnants of Native Americans live in squalor on reservations, shows how denying history can lead you to ridiculous positions.
    I happen to believe, like my Utopian British ancestors, that we can make a life in which all of us are comfortable and none of us is obscenely rich.
    Again. How is this un-American?

  369. wagelaborer February 13, 2010 at 2:25 pm #

    For an example of fly over people’s contempt for the coast people, see Sarah Palin and the teabaggers.

  370. wagelaborer February 13, 2010 at 2:30 pm #

    The problem with DU weapons is when they hit their target and explode.
    The dust released is deadly because of the radiation still present in the “depleted” uranium.

  371. asoka February 13, 2010 at 2:32 pm #

    Ooops, I forgot other votes by Ron Paul against PAYGO.
    On Nov. 19, 2009 Ron Paul voted against the Revising Medicare Physician Fee Schedules and Reinstatement of PAYGO legislation.
    On Jan. 5, 2007 Ron Paul vote against the Pay-As-You-Go Rule (H Res 6)
    Apparently Ron Paul is OK with running up budget deficits. He has consistently voted against PAYGO.
    Ron Paul certainly doesn’t want to pay as you go even though PAYGO would require that any increase in entitlement spending be somehow offset so as to not to increase the deficit.
    Ron Paul is not a libertarian fiscally. He is a whipped Republican.
    They call Ron Paul “Dr. No” but that is not fair. When it comes to issues like the death penalty, banning federal funds for legal abortions, allowing citizens to carry loaded weapons in National Parks, getting the US out of the UN, etc., “Dr. No” is right there with the Republicans… and he is voting YES!

  372. wagelaborer February 13, 2010 at 2:47 pm #

    Why would you think that I would want to give up sex? That is bizarre.
    Just because I recognize that lecturing people on morals will not stop over-population, doesn’t mean that I have a sex problem.
    What a leap you made.

  373. cuddletuffy February 13, 2010 at 3:00 pm #

    Most if not all legislation in Congress may have a name that implies that it contains only one law or a series of laws aimed at a specific purpose. In reality, these bills are full of unrelated laws and spending, what is known as, “pork.”
    Dr. Paul actually reads and studies all the legislation he votes on. He usually votes against a bill because it contains so much harmful pork that any benefit it may contain is nullified or even overturned.
    For example, Ron Paul’s primary goal right now is to audit the Fed. He succeeded in building a Dem/Repub coalition to get his Audit the Fed bill out of committee and into a bill. However, the bill it is contained in has a bunch of other legislation that is counterproductive to his agenda of limited constitutional government.
    Dr. Paul he has said he will vote against the bill that contains the legislation he fought for because he can’t support the pork. His bill to audit the fed will likely pass despite his no vote. Let’s hope the pork does not do the opposite of what Dr. Paul’s legislation intends – open the Federal Reserve and the banking cartel bailout of ’08 – ’09 and secret activities of the past 40 years to a full audit and public scrutiny.
    Your wrong again Asoka. What is really sad is that you don’t care that you are wrong. You actively celebrate it. I know the Internet is anonymous, so you don’t have to face public shame for being such an advocate of disseminating misinformation and lies. But, don’t you at least want to be able to live with yourself?
    There is a concept in psychology called a Shame Spiral. When a person is engaged in immoral or self-destructive behavior they feel deep shame. Rather than curtail this behavior, they actually engage in more and more egregious forms of it. The person doesn’t realize they can wake up and be a new person by the mere act of ceasing this behavior. However, the shame the ego makes the individual feel when knowing their behavior is wrong reinforces the self-destructive feedback loop. It continues.
    It’s painful to witness. It’s like watching a person slowly shoot themselves to death. Please stop. Please, please, please stop.

  374. asoka February 13, 2010 at 3:13 pm #

    cuddletuffy said:

    I wonder if Asoka, if you worked for Cheney and Rumsfeld over at the Office of Special Plans. Your lies and propaganda bear a striking resemblance to their shoddy handiwork.

    C,mon, cuddletuffy this is beneath you. Stick to the issues and don’t stoop to guilt-by-association ad hominem attack.
    You say you are not libertarian, and don’t agree with everything Ron Paul says. Look at what racist claptrap Ron Paul has written. Look at Paul’s Republican voting record. He is not a man of principle.
    I have searched and cannot find Ron Paul admitting that he is a racist. Nor can I find him admitting he is not a racist. People don’t ordinarily make those claims verbally. They illustrate their racism through their actions and writings.
    I did find what I consider to be the most damning condemnation of libertarianism, mouthed by Ron Paul, in an interview. When the interviewer asked where in the world libertarian principles had been implemented, Ron Paul had a frozen deer-in-the-headlights look on his face, followed by hemming and hawing.
    Then Ron Paul made the most damning statement I have ever heard about Libertarianism, especially after reading CFN for years about how the USA is broke and broken, a failed nation.
    Ron Paul said Libertarianism had been put into practice in the USA more than anywhere else in the world.
    Behold the results of 30 years of tax cuts, deregulation, union busting, and “free market” economists running the show. Behold the fruits of even embracing Libertarianism a little bit.

  375. wagelaborer February 13, 2010 at 3:18 pm #

    Can’t you disagree with someone without attacking his honesty and sanity?

  376. asoka February 13, 2010 at 3:25 pm #

    Citation for Ron Paul statement on Libertarianism:






    Starts at 7:27

  377. trippticket February 13, 2010 at 4:10 pm #

    At 1:39 AM on February 13th, Cuddle says:
    “Signing off of CFN for a while now. Got a life to live.”
    Then at 3:00 PM said:
    “It’s painful to witness. It’s like watching a person slowly shoot themselves to death. Please stop. Please, please, please stop.”
    Are you sure you got enough sleep? Barely 13 hours and yep, back for more. Kind of an addictive joint, isn’t it?

  378. asoka February 13, 2010 at 6:23 pm #

    When Ron Paul was asked if he was supportive of gay marriage Paul responded:
    “I am supportive of all voluntary associations and people can call it whatever they want.”
    That is what he said. He also says he respects the Constitution. He also says he is against “judicial activism”.
    Now let’s look at what he does:
    Ron Paul co-sponsored the Marriage Protection Act, which would have barred federal judges from hearing cases pertaining to the constitutionality of the Defense of Marriage Act.
    In one fell swoop he is interfering in the liberty of individuals to voluntarily join in marriage and he is trying to prevent judges from even hear cases in the judicial system.
    Once again, don’t listen to what Ron Paul says: look at what he actually does…
    In this case Ron Paul co-sponsored a bill to interfere with the civil liberty of individuals, to prevent individuals from freely entering into a contract based on love.
    And Ron Paul engaged in “legislative activism” to interfere with the right of judges, nay, b> of judges to weigh on the constitutionality of law.
    Ron Paul shows himself to be more fascist than Libertarian with this action, trying to legislate his own homophobic morality and force it onto everyone.

  379. asoka February 13, 2010 at 6:25 pm #

    Correction:
    Ron Paul engaged in “legislative activism”to interfere with the right of judges, nay, the duty of judges to weigh on the constitutionality of law.

  380. ozone February 13, 2010 at 7:41 pm #

    Tripp sez:
    “I’m sure you see where I’m going with this, and of course I think humans on Earth are required to obey the same system energetics laws as the yeast in a barrel. Radical as that may be to some.
    So, per this discussion, I think it’s safe to say:
    The Free Market = The Laws of Nature
    and anyone who thinks they won’t have to follow the rules will be in for a rude awakening. However, it’s my experiential opinion that giving the finger to the formal economy and realigning with natural law is MORE rewarding, spiritually and psychologically, than peak economy ever was. Sell that one if you can.
    Tripp out.”
    Sell it? I dunno. But, I sure as hell am with you on this! I don’t find your views at all “radical”. (Mebbe politically “unacceptable” for the time being?) But ultimately very reasonable and realistic; and “radical” in its’ sense of being “at the root”. Clear as mud? Yep, that would be me, the addled guy.
    Then again, [national/worldwide] politics be damned; this is going to be about leaving something for the next generation to actually LIVE on.
    Speaking of living on something, Tripp:
    Could you recommend what you think would be the most practical guide to applied permaculture? (My horticultural attempts are just that; kinda floundering, even though “successful”.)
    Thank you muchly for your help!

  381. trippticket February 13, 2010 at 10:42 pm #

    Ozone, we finally catch up. I generally like what you have to say.
    Good permaculture books to get dirty:
    Earth User’s Guide to Permaculture – Rosemary Morrow
    Gaia’s Garden – Toby Hemenway
    The science dork in me uses the radical homonym every time I grow sprouts! My wife tells me it never gets old…she’s good that way.

  382. trippticket February 13, 2010 at 10:52 pm #

    I freakin’ love your handle.

  383. ozone February 14, 2010 at 12:00 am #

    Tripp,
    Most excellent!
    I’ll get to it… and yes, those books will get besmirched and besmeared. ;o) (As a veteran dirt-digger, that’s just the way it is.)
    Thanks very much.

  384. trippticket February 14, 2010 at 12:41 am #

    Do you read Jared Diamond? I think this article has more to say about the human condition than most. Read it if/when you have time, and tell me what you think:
    http://www.environnement.ens.fr/perso/claessen/agriculture/mistake_jared_diamond.pdf

  385. cuddletuffy February 14, 2010 at 3:30 am #

    WL –
    It is one thing to have an informed discourse where both sides make interesting points and an honest and informative discourse serves to educate and inform everyone. It is another matter entirely when you are debating someone and they make claims and statements that are patently false or aim to be deliberately misleading, and then refuse to acknowledge when they have been refuted. That is to the detriment of all. Asoka is clearly doing the latter.
    It isn’t that Asoka and I are disagreeing in some grey area. It is that Asoka is making authoritative claims that are patently false. I comment on this site to help inform and be informed by other interesting thinkers and viewpoints.
    I have spent a lot of time in the past several years researching issues given how broken and failed our political and economic systems have become. A lot of that entailed being unafraid to research and consider ideas I would have previously dismissed, largely because partisans had slandered groups or individuals. I discovered how much misinformation has been spread by our partisan political system which institutionalizes ignorance and slander.
    I discovered that Ron Paul and certain intellectuals who are self-described or might be described as, “Libertarian”, have been predicting the dismal state of our nation and, more importantly, how and why it would happen with remarkable prescience and accuracy for 40 years. Longer if you read people like Murray Rothbard, Ludwig von Mises and others. I care deeply that we could all learn from their passion and commitment to understanding how we can best adhere to the core ideals of our nation for the benefit of all.
    Do Ron Paul and other people we might categorize as Libertarian have all the answers? Maybe, maybe not. Their prescience and considerable body of intellectual work in the field of economics, civil liberties, pro-peace/anti-war/anti-empire, rule of law, is all based on thinking firmly rooted in the highest ideals of the enlightenment. It deserves the honest consideration of everyone. We ignore them at our peril.
    I find their traditions particularly relevant to this web-site as Libertarianism has a long history of being chiefly concerned with local, autonomous, self-organizing, self-governing, sustainable communities rooted in a firm reality of resource scarcity.
    Asoka’s lies and deliberate attempt to slander this school of thought and some of its most integral leaders and representatives is robbing us all of ideas that have merit. The state, and the elite who control it, are assaulting us all with enough deceit about where we are and how we got here. It is unconscionable to me that an individual would want to assist them with that.
    Therefore, I believe that Asoka’s methods of deceit deserve a stern rebuke calling them out for the deliberate lies that they are.
    Respectully,
    CT

  386. asoka February 14, 2010 at 4:18 am #

    CT, it is great that you have discovered libertarianism. It is not so great that you don’t see the danger in Ron Paul’s version of it, even after I shared racist quotes from Ron Paul’s newsletter.
    Ron Paul is a conspiracy theorist and is outside the mainstream of intellectual libertarianism.
    His newsletters contain a brand of paranoia, anti-government paranoia, that is dangerous. He was complicit with right-wing militia groups during the 1980s and ’90s in the sense that Ron Paul’s newsletters hinted that armed revolution against the federal government would be justified.
    In January 1995, three months before right-wing militants bombed the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City, a newsletter listed “Ten Militia Commandments,” describing “the 1,500 local militias now training to defend liberty” as “one of the most encouraging developments in America.”
    Ron Paul’s newsletter warned militia members that they were “possibly under BATF [Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms] or other totalitarian federal surveillance” and printed bits of advice from the Sons of Liberty, an anti-government militia based in Alabama – among them, “You can’t kill a Hydra by cutting off its head,” “Keep the group size down,” “Keep quiet and you’re harder to find,” “Leave no clues,” “Avoid the phone as much as possible,” and “Don’t fire unless fired upon, but if they mean to have a war, let it begin here.”
    If I was putting out a newsletter, I would not publish that kind of paranoid clap trap. Ron Paul should apologize to the families of the federal employees in Oklahoma, but he is evasive when confronted.
    The irony is that Ron Paul, who speaks against programs like universal single payer health care and votes against them, who speaks out against big government spending, has spent ye