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Eleven year old Jeff Greenaway is in love and on the loose in Manhattan circa 1962.
This book will crack you up.
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The Surrealist Vista

     Some profound seismic infarction deep in civilization’s very soul – brought on, no doubt, by the sludgy buildup of vast swindles and frauds – now propels deadly tsunamis toward the land masses where money dwells. And when they break over the shorelines of banking and capital, little may be left standing.
     The latest rogue wave broke about ten days ago, when an orgy of foreclosure revealed massive irregularities in mortgage contracts and property titles, suggesting a slovenliness so arrant and broad that even the states’ attorneys general woke from their narcoleptic raptures of golf to shut down transfers of distressed property. But this was only after the banks themselves declared “moratoria” in a perhaps vain attempt to forestall further discovery of their countless misdeeds. And somewhere along in there the title insurance industry had a whack attack.
     During this period a new cliché issued from a million pie-holes: the rule of law. Well, as Joni once sang to we happy Boomers, “…you don’t know what you got ’til it’s gone….” 
     To systematically ignore the niggling, stodgy lawful protocols regarding contract documents – notarization, due diligence, various dotted “i”s and crossed “t”s – was easy on the way up Fraud Mountain. On the ride down, though, it turns out all those niceties comprised the braking apparatus,  Now the cargo of swindles is accelerating out-of-control and breaking apart. Suddenly this cliché – the rule of law – begins to assert its meaning for this nation of slobs, morons, and grifters, to the degree that even lawyers begin to understand what’s at stake (as opposed to just how much they can get paid), though the bankers may never learn.
     The upshot is that the real estate industry is on ice indefinitely. Nobody dares to buy or sell property because there is no way of knowing who actually owns it, whether the chain of title is on-the-level, whether (or not) there is a document somewhere with coffee mug rings and taco sauce stains denoting the past and current owners of, say, a half acre of sawgrass scrub with an abandoned harlequin brick ranch-house full of mold feasting on damp sheet-rock in the unspeakable South Florida humidity.
     The US real estate racket was already in enough trouble with the collapse of bubble pricing and then the consequent effect on untold tons of mortgage-backed securities and derivatives of them buried in the vaults of banks, insurance companies, municipal investment accounts, pension funds, and other repositories of trust. It certainly has been known for years that the value of these clever instruments is somewhere south of where they represent themselves to be – but since the crash of 2008 accounting legerdemain kept a lid on that putrid stew. The new wave of mortgage and title fraud now threatens to drive their value down to zero, that is, quite a bit lower than even the previous worst-feared estimates of mark-to-market apocalypse.
      These bundles of bonds of bundled mortgages are now so infected with impropriety that the bundlers themselves might just have to buy them back and eat the losses, and in so doing watch the value of their companies whirl down the drain, and then, after losing their jobs, their incomes, their private jets, and all the other blandishments of the high life, face prosecution and any number of years assigned to a steel slab bed and a ping-pong career in some correctional facility. That is, if we are even able to recover some fragment of the rule of law from the landfill of good intentions.
     The trouble is, that the damage is so severe through every institution concerned with the operations of money (including the US government) that none of these fatal monkeyshines can be mitigated. Or, to put it as Barack Obama’s predecessor did, so neatly, “…this sucker could go down.” After all, what are the practical remedies for property the ownership of which can’t be established? And upon which are claims and obligations that underlie the very value of money in this society? The rights of property form the basis of Anglo-American law. Subtract them and all bets are off. Literally.
     Schemes akin to a debt jubilee are already being floated – which might sound dandy in theory, but would very neatly thrust the USA back to a standard of living equal to that in the year 1690. In other words, you can shake off your debts, but be prepared to spend the rest of your days picking stones out of your daily lentil ration before turning in on a bug-infested straw pallet next to the hog-pen, care of which is your new career.
     Or perhaps your idealism runs along a different track and you would prefer to just let the government come in and take ownership of virtually everything and then decide who ends up getting what? While I am personally not tortured by nightmares of what the Tea-baggers imagine “socialism” to be (i.e. fears that the gubment will insert a computer chip in your gonads, confiscate your Go-Go Ultra X Electric Travel Scooter, and restrict your monthly admissions to the Talladega Superspeedway) I can easily see functional limitations on something like the old dictatorship of the proletariat – especially when said proletariat has been reduced in this country to some kind of a lumpen slobeteriat of methadrine-addled, tattooed psychopaths with axes to grind.
     Or maybe you prefer the realm of anarchy, where a few plucky souls decide to stop playing ball with their creditors, on the grounds that they can probably get away with it due to all those slip-ups and oversights in contract review… and the idea goes viral across the nation that nobody has to make his or her payments on anything owed… and screw those bankers, anyway. “You want me? Come and get a piece of me!” Well, that route has its disadvantages, too, pretty much quickly resolving in the end-of-civilization-as-we-know-it, since after the first delirious weeks of non-payment everything based on money comes to a halt. Enjoy that one while you can.
     In any event, meanwhile, property transfers will cease and the money bound up in them will not circulate, and interest not paid and – well, it’s a chain of consequence leading to banks not functioning, businesses going down, people not getting paid, goods not being shipped, and something like a long emergency getting underway. The outcome is not any different from the anarchy option, except you must remember that a lot of the things that end up broken will never be put back together again.
     This is therefore what the late, great Eudora Welty might have called… a still moment – the boundless interval of grave recognition that something momentous is occurring. Where we stand is something like the doorway of a surrealist painting leading to a blue sky dotted with puffy little clouds – which is deceptively reassuring, until you realize that the solid earth is nowhere in sight. The truth is, nobody has a clue what happens next, most particularly the folks in charge of things.
      All we know in this still moment is that the hoary old rule of law no longer obtains. It’s on everybody’s lips because everybody knows that some epochal slippage has occurred, and in the dark maw exposed by that slippage a lot will be lost.
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About James Howard Kunstler

View all posts by James Howard Kunstler
James Howard Kunstler is the author of many books including (non-fiction) The Geography of Nowhere, The City in Mind: Notes on the Urban Condition, Home from Nowhere, The Long Emergency, and Too Much Magic: Wishful Thinking, Technology and the Fate of the Nation. His novels include World Made By Hand, The Witch of Hebron, Maggie Darling — A Modern Romance, The Halloween Ball, an Embarrassment of Riches, and many others. He has published three novellas with Water Street Press: Manhattan Gothic, A Christmas Orphan, and The Flight of Mehetabel.

646 Responses to “The Surrealist Vista” Subscribe

  1. Termoil October 18, 2010 at 8:19 am #

    Great… Can be I be one of those really stupid wankers that claims FIRST? Even if it is for just this little itty bitty message from the Great Man Himself?

  2. doomster October 18, 2010 at 8:31 am #

    Sure, must be your lucky day. I hope I haven’t stolen anyone’s chance to claim SECOND! :) Dental adventures are always fun, esp. when you get the big bill in the mail even though you have insurance…

  3. Smokyjoe October 18, 2010 at 8:55 am #

    I insist that we play rock-paper-scissors for who gets to be FIRST!

  4. eightm October 18, 2010 at 9:24 am #

    from :
    http://kunstler.com/blog/2010/10/bank-shot.html
    “Look at what was invented in the 19th/early 20th century.
    Internal combustion engine, rail transportation, electric light, electric motors, powered flight, refrigeration, telegraph, radio, television, mechanization of agriculture, the theory of relativity, quantum mechanics…you could go on and on.
    What have we invented that was remotely as transformational as those inventions above? You want to talk “new economy” you have to look back a hundred plus years.
    I think what we’ve done in recent decades is puny. The internet in my opinion is exceedingly small potatoes in comparison. Space flight maybe?
    So are we mental midgets in comparison to those days?”
    The low hanging fruit is the easiest to get: all of those inventions, which are huge were the simplest to make, the low hanging fruits. Those were the first to be picked, but as Science and Technology progresses, it becomes increasingly difficult to pick valid fruits (if there are even many left at all) since they are hanging much higher, like fusion energy, or Man trips to Mars, etc.
    You can discover Electricity only once, the natural world does not offer another discovery as powerful, all encompassing and incredible as Electricity: this is a one time free quirk of nature and the laws of physics and how we, as humans, are configured with respect to nature with just the right combination of sense organs and mental contraptions to process and interact with reality.
    The same can be said of Calculus and Mathematics, Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, etc. Silicon technology and Microprocessors and Moore’s law and heck, even the electric guitar and rock music are really all one time quirks, free lunches, something that can be discovered only once, and I doubt very much that in the future there will be any other such huge discoveries even possible. What we have now is the problem of how to use these discoveries, and that becomes a political problem.
    Maybe the only thing really left is the direct manipulation of brain – mind, the direct changing of our neural circuits, implanting chips in brains, experimenting with all kinds of drugs and wild chemicals in brains, creating Instant Singularities in the brain, virtual realities, etc. But this does not really imply “new discoveries” as those huge ones mentioned previously were like Electricity and Flight, but self manipulation of the brain and body, this is more chemical and drugs and “health care” – “pharmaceutical” and maybe “computer – virtual reality” based than anything else.

  5. RAW October 18, 2010 at 9:40 am #

    Good. Then I won’t need my 5-buckle overshoes until this afternoon.

  6. popcine October 18, 2010 at 9:59 am #

    Visitors to this site who are interested in financial speculation and who are aware of the implications of the foreclosure controversy might wish to buy the security “FAZ”, which increases in value when bank stocks decline. It was a little off at the open this morning, Monday, Oct. 18, at a price a little below 13, because Citigroup reported stronger earnings. In 2008, it was above 1200.
    The facts of the foreclosure controversy are bad enough, but I am further impressed by the culture of pervasive criminality that we are beginning to see with individual homeowners who they have attacked. How terrible to be victimized like this! It will take strong leadership to re-establish a clear chain of title for homes across the country, and from what corner will it come?

  7. scarlet runner October 18, 2010 at 10:11 am #

    You could have given an unemployed local guy a break and let me do the dental work. I have a pair of pliars and can see OK with my reading glasses.

  8. welles October 18, 2010 at 10:14 am #

    come on, THESE SAME BANKS got only a few trillion when they went crying to the taxpayers…you really expect this to be a great shorting opportunity? when everyone in the WURLDz thinking the same thing?
    when THESE SAME BANKS own the people that make the laws in this cuntry? when THESE SAME BANKS simply get the lawmakers to legally change accounting rules to hide the fact they’re really insolvent/BROKE?
    in other words, GOOD LUCK on those shorts fella.

  9. lsjogren October 18, 2010 at 10:47 am #

    welles makes a great point. Since the prevalence of derivatives, etc. it has seemed clear to me that banks are such a dysfunctional mockery of the concept of a “business” that anyone would be a fool to invest in them. As many economic commentators have pointed out (JHK included) they still own mountains of toxic financial waste, albeit their ill effects have been partially postponed by the removal of the mark to market rule.
    But on top of that the banking business is largely dictated by government (defining government broadly enough to include its “independent” Frankenstein creation the Federal Reserve). Government dictates interest rates, hence the yield curve, hence how much money banks can make on interest. Government dictates the amount of money banks are allowed to create out of thin air as a multiple of their reserves. And of course, banks were bailed out up the yin yang when they got into an immediate crisis. (Fortunately, taxpayer losses have been minimized on account of the fiction that banks are healthy having driven their stock prices up, allowing them to sell new shares to hapless investors, with the end result being that the witless investors will be the main losers when the banks are exposed as still being houses of cards.
    The conclusion of all this is that banks are not “real” businesses in any sense, and thus one is a fool to invest in them. Their fate is subject to the whim of government. So far that means they have been propped up, but I believe the political climate is not liable to allow that to continue forever. But, bottom line is that their fate is largely determined by bureaucrats.
    True investing involves assessing a business and determining whether it is competently managed, financially sound, produces products that fill an important need, and is relatively free of political risk.
    The large banks possess none of these attributes.

  10. lsjogren October 18, 2010 at 10:50 am #

    One point I failed to make clear is that because the fate of the banks is largely based on the whims of bureaucrats, it is foolish to invest in them period, either to buy long or to short.

  11. Lynn Shwadchuck October 18, 2010 at 10:56 am #

    “…be prepared to spend the rest of your days picking stones out of your daily lentil ration before turning in on a bug-infested straw pallet next to the hog-pen, care of which is your new career.” Another slam of eating beans paired with the assumption of continued meat production.
    Lynn
    http://www.10in10diet.com/
    For a small footprint and a small grocery bill

  12. zen17 October 18, 2010 at 10:57 am #

    If you are not already engaged in strengthening your body, calming your mind, growing your own food and building local community….it is probably too late.

  13. asoka October 18, 2010 at 11:00 am #

    JHK said: “All we know in this still moment is that the hoary old rule of law no longer obtains.”
    The rule of law very much obtains and is in no danger of not obtaining. Just ask the 2+ million people housed as a result of the rule of law in our nation’s prisons.
    The establishment structure — the rule of law — is not even showing cracks.

  14. Smokyjoe October 18, 2010 at 11:08 am #

    JHK wrote:
    “and the idea goes viral across the nation that nobody has to make his or her payments on anything owed”
    Isn’t this happening already? How many folks are simply sitting in their homes w/o paying mortgages, knowing that the lenders will take years to find them? If debt moratoriums become widespread, we’ll get a systemic collapse in short order. I never used to believe such things possible.
    The system was built on trust and consequences. Now not just the lumpenproles but the property owners lack trust in authorities (gubment and bizness) that once could have held them responsible.

  15. lsjogren October 18, 2010 at 11:09 am #

    I notice JK went a little easier on the tea parties this time around.
    The fact is, although they don’t have a very good idea what’s going on, at least they have enough instincts to sense that something is very wrong.
    Contrast that with the Paul Krugmans of the world, who think everything can be solved by printing up trillions of dollars and dropping them from helicopters.

  16. Pepper Spray October 18, 2010 at 11:23 am #

    Well put.
    I think the problem now is just as you say; where do we go from here with the foreclosure fraud? This is the first time since 2005 that i could not draw a vector for a future outcome, even a wrong one. There is no way out of this that I can see.
    As ugly as it is to face; it may be anarchy now.

  17. Puzzler October 18, 2010 at 11:23 am #

    …fears that the gubment will insert a computer chip in your gonads.

    That’s why I wrap my scrotum with aluminum foil to block the transmissions.
    —————————–
    Thanks, Jim, for my weekly dose of outrage.

  18. doomster October 18, 2010 at 11:29 am #

    Yes, the “tea party” knows there’s something wrong, but their solution is more of what got us where we are. Kunstler is right, whatever the outcome it probably won’t be desirable; the political system is too corrupt and dominated by two corporate-funded parties to effectively solve such problems. Here’s an article on the coming inflation and high oil prices that will further ruin the U.S. economy: http://news.lesswaiting.com/101810.shtml

  19. Norman Conquest October 18, 2010 at 11:44 am #

    Asoka:
    The Rule of Law is supported by the acquiescence of the People. If people start disobeying the Law en masse, there goes the rule of law.
    Norman Conquest
    (since 1066)

  20. remoran October 18, 2010 at 11:50 am #

    This is the best post you have written in a long time. Perceptive and right on. Terrific commentary I must say.

  21. nothing October 18, 2010 at 11:56 am #

    Jimbo! Lighten up! The Fed has a new secret plan to make it all right again.
    See the details at http://www.thenothingstore.com

  22. thrill October 18, 2010 at 12:02 pm #

    Jimmy, Jimmy, Jimmy…. you know, I first drank your Kool-Aid over a year ago and it took about a year for me to realize how wrong we both were. The world is not coming to an end, it is not time to buy guns and grow food, and believe it or not people will actually still buy and sell real estate in the future. I went back and read your “predictions” for over a year and could not find an instance where you were correct (yet). You may be in the future, but I doubt it. You are such a perfect contrarian indicator I think I’m gonna git me one of those Maui condos…..

  23. cbwim October 18, 2010 at 12:05 pm #

    How is this for a bailout scenario?
    Say Ben prints trillions of dollars and instead of giving them to the banks directly (as he probably will), pays off everyones’ mortgages and other debts in one fell swoop.
    Like that will ever happen.
    What appears to be happening is a total freeze on the Real Estate business. Now that the ownership paper is suspect, title companies won’t insure and banks won’t lend.
    I’m hoping my local bank didn’t sell off my mortgage to be tranched to death cause at some time in the next few years, we need to refinance.

  24. Sackerson October 18, 2010 at 12:12 pm #

    Glad you mentioned Eudora Welty. I loved her story “Why I Love At The P.O.”
    Are you becoming intoxicated by the exuberance of your own verbosity, or do you really, really think it’s going down badly? Surely there’ll be some shabby fix so the gibbets don’t have to be built.

  25. Sackerson October 18, 2010 at 12:13 pm #

    P.S. Sorry about the Welty typo, I don’t suppose she was quite THAT advanced.

  26. Desertrat October 18, 2010 at 12:16 pm #

    Seems to me that the main deal for the vast majority of Tea Party folks is the insane spending by government, and the highly objectionable intrusiveness beyond all rationale. All the other stuff is media garbage stemming from its general love of government.
    My house has been paid for since the day I moved in, back in 1993. My only problem in finding a buyer would be his credit rating. I know many, many people who also are unhurt by all this kerfuffle. Sure, the mess is serious, but it’s not that large a percentage of all homes.
    So let the failures fail. Somebody will come along and buy the parts and pieces at some true market value and resume doing business. Only an idiot would do what was done with GM and Chrysler, or bail out the investment banksters.
    But, what the heck. Those of us who said the present administration would follow the ideas of Obama’s mentors were shouted down. Okay, fine. Folks sowed the wind and now they’re reaping the whirlwind. Nothing unexpected, really. And so all those ideas have finally led to the rise of the Tea Party folks.
    Giggle-snort. Instead of sitting on the porch scowling and clutching, our Fearless Leaders have provided a worthwhile target at which to aim. Aim their votes, that is.
    Won’t solve the problems, of course, but a change might slow down the worsening thereof.
    ‘Rat

  27. ozone October 18, 2010 at 12:26 pm #

    “…I can easily see functional limitations on something like the old dictatorship of the proletariat – especially when said proletariat has been reduced in this country to some kind of a lumpen slobeteriat of methadrine-addled, tattooed psychopaths with axes to grind.” -JHK
    LOL! Yessir, might be a few problems making something minimally coherent outta that.
    Seems what the authoritarians pine for; I’ll wish ‘em good luck with their endeavors.
    I guess I’m just waiting for the next shoe to drop (in a purely speculative sense). I really can’t conceive what the gummint is going to dream up next for the grand extend-and-pretend agenda.
    Meanwhile, in practical sensibilities, we should probably make sure we have access to food and shelter for the near-term emergency of gummint retrenchment when the “options” run out, or the “solutions” are revealed to the G.P. to be tissues of lies and empty promises. (That’s just practical preparedness, anyhoo; never a bad idea to have a “plan B”.)

  28. wampum October 18, 2010 at 12:32 pm #

    Look at the upside for a change.
    In twenty years or so, or whenever the “white shoe boys” emerge from their black and white striped jumpers, America will dominate the world in chess.
    Among the clever, chess is the preferred game in prison, not ping pong.

  29. Cash October 18, 2010 at 12:34 pm #

    And so in the face of this maelstrom of malfeasance you wonder, can things possibly get more moronic? Well, yes they can actually.
    Huffington Post has an article about government outsourcing collection of past due property taxes to banks.
    So let’s see. Totally fucked up mortgages, totally fucked up derivatives, totally fucked up foreclosure process courtesy of these totally fucked up banks run by mega rich gangsters that sucked billions out of taxpayers. And now these thugs are in the business of collecting property taxes?
    So the banks pay the govt the past due homeowner taxes and then do what they must to collect the taxes (plus interest and fees of course) from the delinquent homeowner including foreclosure. Tax farming Roman style. How can this possibly go wrong?
    Not bad enough? Get this, the Huffington Post article says that some banks are securitizing tax liens and selling them to investors. Mind fucking boggling. Haven’t we just been there?
    Can it get possibly get stupider? Yes it can. This is a real forehead slapper: there’s no oversight, no regulation of the collection process.
    Surrealist doesn’t begin to describe it. Epochal slippage? You bet, right off the edge of the cliff.

  30. conchscooter October 18, 2010 at 12:36 pm #

    I find the determination of the French populace to stop their government from screwing them to be rather refreshing compared to the craven acceptance of whatever ills our corporate/government leaders choose to hand down to us.
    Refusing to pay a mortgage until the bank provides the original paper that proves ownership is simply another form of civil protest. That the banks find this simple obligiation beyond their ability should be provoking widespread and total civil unrest in this mass-media-fed nation of ours.
    Yet this act of disobedience in the face of widespread criminal activity from above does not gain the social acceptance the French experience when they shut the country down by depriving it of its precious bodily fluid- fuel.
    How sad it is our corporate leaders can act with impunity while the sons and daughters of the Revolution over here worry more about property values than the total destruction of the Bill of Rights.
    It may be that Kunstler is wrong, but I suspect he is correct: we will take whatever our corporate leaders hand down to us lest we are forced to take a stand in support of the abstract theory of the Rule of Law.

  31. jerry October 18, 2010 at 12:36 pm #

    I guess the coming Emergency will affect those who panic.
    I have recently read how the banksta syndicate is buying up local tax collection entities creating LLCs to go after delinquent taxes and debts to the order of billions of dollars. They are creating these LLCs under cover.
    The Kleptocrats who borrowed trillions from the Fed and us at near zero percent interest give nothing back to society and this president and Congress allow it to go on instead of deciding that these predators are just way too big and need to be broken up into benign pieces.
    For many the coming inflation due to the likely induced QE2 will damage many people and families. The trade and currency war has begun. Bernanke is a predator and should have been fired two years ago instead of given the Time magazine honor of Man of the Year.
    http://eye-on-washington.blogspot.com

  32. mark October 18, 2010 at 12:52 pm #

    For those that think selling (or buying) bank stocks is a good idea, or any stock for that matter, should first consider the bigger picture. Visiting the following site and taking in all the videos he’s produced on the way the world REALLY works should disabuse everyone of any notion of success, in the markets or any where else. Despite Jim’s well know aversion to conspiracy, simple facts devoid of spin and bias should compel everyone to reconsider where we’ve ended up since 1913.
    http://csper.wordpress.com/
    I remember a quote form Michael Rupert (before the drama got to him; glad to see his recovery) that goes something like this: “If you don’t change the way money works you change nothing.” How right he is!!! The work ahead of us is daunting. For those who clearly see how and why we’ve come to this, the further destruction of our freedoms and the rule of law will be gut-wrenching. Necessary however as we need more people to see clearly. It is unfortunately true that we only learn through suffering… be great to see that change as well.

  33. Cash October 18, 2010 at 12:55 pm #

    The French are showing some piss and vinegar at least.

  34. walt October 18, 2010 at 12:56 pm #

    The rule of law (along with its purple raiment, majesty) are already eroding in the tribalized identity games teabaggers and other halfwits play. Law will eventually become congruent with the validating insignia of pale skin, cultural grievance, and paramilitary codes. Real Americans know who to blame: anyone who thinks, acts, or looks differently from themselves.
    I’m noticing a rather sharp uptick in the amount of rhetorical violence out there. Since I can’t imagine Republicans (most of whom are overweight and overexcitable) having any coherent response to the current crisis, there will need to be a reckoning on another level. All the dirty, fucking hippies who have bedeviled America since Kerouac and Kesey may provide the fuel necessary for Walpurgisnacht. That means people like you. That means be careful what you wish for. That means all your survivalism, guns, and gold won’t outwit outrage. W was right: this sucker is going down.

  35. lbendet October 18, 2010 at 12:59 pm #

    Don’t trust the sky just ’cause it’s blue.
    “Where we stand is something like the doorway of a surrealist painting leading to a blue sky dotted with puffy little clouds – which is deceptively reassuring, until you realize that the solid earth is nowhere in sight. ….”
    —JHK, you must be reading my mind! (although with a different twist)
    Early this morning as I froze drinking my coffee on the terrace of my apartment I thought to myself: “Don’t trust the sky just ’cause it’s blue.”
    I was thinking along the lines of it may look nice, but it’s too cold to be out here and 9/11 was a glorious day in the early morning, too. All seemed right in the world. What, on such a day could go wrong?
    From a slide during a speech by William K. Black on white collar crime:
    “Rating Agencies as Vectors. Any request for loan level tapes is totally unreasonable!!! Most investors don’t have it and can’t provide it….It is our responsibility to provide those credit estimates and our responsibility to devise some method for doing so”(S&P’01)
    My usual Max Keiser perusal led me to a video of William K. Black discussing the immense CEO/Banking criminality that has taken place and how this differs from the Savings and Loans fraud where we put the banks into receiverships and about 1000 people went to jail. He also mentioned another debacle that occurred in 1991 that the taxpayers did not bail out. Truly a must, if you want to understand this from a white crime criminology standpoint. He’s sees these players as wholly culpable in these endeavors and they know exactly what they are doing.
    He also used an example of deceit and fraud that boggles the mind. Infant baby formula made in China was composed of talc and water to save money. Legitimate companies couldn’t compete and went out of business. When you hear something like that, how do you even begin to grasp the enormity of where we find ourselves?–It’s global and there are no standards of morality that can be applied to this system.
    The other video I found interesting from a few days ago is the David Degraw about his book, “The Road Through 2012: Revolution or World War III”
    http://daviddegraw.org/
    ______________One more thing:
    http://www.counterpunch.org/hudson10112010.html
    Why the U.S. has Launched a New Financial World War — And How the the Rest of the World Will Fight Back By MICHAEL HUDSON
    “Coming events cast their shadows forward.” – Goethe

  36. bailey October 18, 2010 at 1:06 pm #

    Yes kids, it’s called a Kleptocracy. That’s why the banks hate the poor and throw them out of their homes with glee…it’s called fraud, graft, deceit.
    We shall wait patiently until my American brethren get their heads around the Fed and what it is they are exactly doing…until then…bon chance!

  37. Zaax October 18, 2010 at 1:10 pm #

    Here are two links of interest that are a lot like JHK’s topic this week.
    The Loss of Trust and the Great Unraveling To Come. http://www.oftwominds.com/blog.html
    And this title is perhaps the best description of the near future.
    The Coming Middle-Class Anarchy
    http://gonzalolira.blogspot.com/2010/10/coming-middle-class-anarchy.html

  38. Kenny October 18, 2010 at 1:23 pm #

    Well said. I have been waiting for someone to state the truth of this matter. Thanks!

  39. cato5555 October 18, 2010 at 1:28 pm #

    The really scary thing for me has been, for some time now, that there is no longer any such thing as “conservatism”. If the source of our ills in society today were indeed too much welfare state liberalism, how could we ever find an alternative by reverting back to either the cynical hyper-capitalistic, globalist corporatism of the current Republican brand, or the loony self-deluding cracker reactionism of the Tea Party? We are officially rendered inert and immobile on all of the major issues – budget balancing, paying down national debt, dealing with illegal immigration, pursuing terrorists, and drawing down the American empire. The only hope is that somewhere out there perhaps a movement is under way , made up of realists, who see clearly and have a way of appealing to the majority.

  40. Nickelthrower October 18, 2010 at 1:38 pm #

    Greetings,
    My hat is off to the French protesters. Those guys understand that the one thing everyone will pay attention to is oil. Shut down a few refineries and you can bring the entire country to a standstill.
    In my opinion, that is what will bring us down here as it will be very difficult to obtain oil or foreign made goods once the dollar becomes worthless.
    Think of it this way: the dollar is nothing more than a promise of future labor. What else could it be given that is isn’t backed by anything tangible. At some point in time, the people that make our TV’s and computers and sell us oil will realize that there is not enough future labor left in the United States to make good on the money we already owe and they will cut off our line of credit. That is when the anarchy will begin.
    The US would be forced to invade fuel supplying nations or watch its people starve in the streets. I strongly doubt other super powers would sit on their hands while that happened.
    Get ready for WWIII

  41. cvsnead October 18, 2010 at 1:38 pm #

    If you really want to know what is going to happen, go get a copy of Chinatown and watch it. This mess is so big that the government will just legalize it and grandfather it, and the banks can just go on their merry way…

  42. ozone October 18, 2010 at 1:52 pm #

    Oopsie!
    Fraud-closure, anyone?
    Eeeeverybody into the pool!
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31510813/#39676183

  43. ASPO Article 1037 October 18, 2010 at 1:52 pm #

    Bank of America in 1933, partnered with Marin County property owners offers best example to save the banks. This Depression era consortia financed the Golden Gate Bridge, now a transportation cash cow for the SF Bay Area.
    Forward to Switzerland, finishing up their 35+ mile Alpine railway tunnel. When time passes, this project too will provide national income from tolls.
    US Bankers must be brave, work with engineering firms and form consortia to build NAWAPA, needed to recharge key aquifers and power electric railways. Rail rehab to carry the load for fuel-pinched trucking must feature the new US50 rail line from Sacramento to Carson City, and rebuilt rail infrastructure in the US 95 Corridor.
    See Suntrain Transportation Corporation web page for some ideas. See ASLRRA for companies with savvy rail upgrade talent. See postings in “theoildrum” by “tahoevalleylines” for more specifics. America has human talent and resources; in the ground and in the vault, to accomplish these engineering hedges against collapse. Bring on Peaking Oil…

  44. asoka October 18, 2010 at 1:57 pm #

    Agreed. When there is mass resistance, the system does not work. But the numbers do not suggest there is mass resistance.
    The U.S. loan delinquency rate (loans 30 or more days past due, but not in foreclosure) rose to 9.27 percent as of the end of September 2010. That’s a 0.6 percent increase over the previous month, but down 7.8 percent compared to last September 2009.
    SOURCE: Lenders Processing Services (LPS)which is used by the 50 largest banks.
    So the number of delinquencies is DECLINING compared to last year. Hardly an indication of “disobeying the Law en masse”
    The rule of law is intact.

  45. k-dog October 18, 2010 at 2:04 pm #

    be prepared to spend the rest of your days picking stones out of your daily lentil ration before turning in on a bug-infested straw pallet next to the hog-pen, care of which is your new career.

    Gotta love it, lets not forget the perpetrators of these crimes will be better off than you will be if this is what happens.
    Time for Brother Jobe to pray and conjure up a bit of Halloween magic IMHO.

  46. welles October 18, 2010 at 2:04 pm #

    ….anyone here that thinks the BankZ will be brought down by fraudclosuregate is sorely mistaken. even if everyone withdrew ALL deposits from the TBTF bankz they would NOT be in trouble.
    why not? because they ARE the rulemakers. THEY CAN AND DO literally print money out of thin air at their whimsy. they can ‘print’ a trillion into their reserves with a phonecall to the FED.
    the Real Actors that shake this country move through Proxies such as the Bankz. they long ago stopped ‘working’ for ‘money’ in the way that you do. the slaves (You) paying taxes is simply an amusing control event for their entertainment.
    this is the Unlimited Powr They have due to their unchecked ability to literally print money any time they find it desirable.
    the best you can do is stop paying taxes. or move to a country where there are (almost) no taxes. it’s possible.
    Know Thy Place, Serf.

  47. erikSF99 October 18, 2010 at 2:12 pm #

    DesertRat said: “My house has been paid for since the day I moved in, back in 1993. My only problem in finding a buyer would be his credit rating. I know many, many people who also are unhurt by all this kerfuffle. Sure, the mess is serious, but it’s not that large a percentage of all homes.
    So let the failures fail. Somebody will come along and buy the parts and pieces at some true market value and resume doing business.”
    Sorry DesertRat, but securitization goes back to the early 80’s. Unless you paid cash and the prior owner had paid off the house prior to the early 80s…you’re in the same boat with everyone else.
    Watch this Dylan Ratigan MSNBC clip which confirms everything JHK wrote above:
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31510813/#39676183

  48. cossack55 October 18, 2010 at 2:12 pm #

    I thought he meant I was getting a promotion. Actually, I think I will just opt in for the anarchy route. I look good in a long black coat and Fedora. Plus I used to bowl long ago.

  49. Gregg October 18, 2010 at 2:38 pm #

    Let us not forget the fundamentals here. Banks exists as a means to extract rents on the currency. Banks lend principle. The rent/interest comes from the general stock of money and future loans. This at its root is a system that demands exponential growth in order to function. Exponential growth on a finite planet will sooner or later fail.
    Captial will seek valorization either in surplus value or interest. If there is no source of surplus value flowing from manufacture, valorization will seek some mechanism to extract rents or speculate. History also shows us that where capital ventures, law follows.
    There are two solutions to this dilema. One, return the power to issue away from those who would charge rent on currency to a sovereign power that issues on behalf of the public good. Allow banks to lend only what they have, i.e., no more fractional reserve lending.
    Second, redirect our manufacturing base toward a twenty year plan to phase out oil as an energy source for transport, manufacture, and space heating. Those who sell their labor will have plenty of takers. Their wages will be paid in currency that exists without a rent burden. The government need only issue currency for projects that ease us away from hydrocarbon dependence and toward an economy based on solar income. The inflationary effects will be mitigated by the utility of the new infrastructure.
    A third solution would be to abolish all corporations.
    Something else to consider would be a MAXIMUM wage indexed to a minimum wage by, say, a factor of eight. Anything over that would be taxed at 100%. Rich people are a drain on the economy and a pox on the body politic.
    I’m not holding my breath.

  50. asoka October 18, 2010 at 2:49 pm #

    Gregg said: “Something else to consider would be a MAXIMUM wage indexed to a minimum wage by, say, a factor of eight. Anything over that would be taxed at 100%.”
    I have been advocating this since 1968. I am not holding my breath either.
    Gregg said: “Rich people are a drain on the economy and a pox on the body politic.”
    Amen. The rich try to paint themselves as “job creators” (but they are mostly thieves who do no productive work. Truth is the rich get richer and unemployment goes up. Jobs are not created.

  51. empirestatebuilding October 18, 2010 at 2:50 pm #

    I am fairly certain, judging from the slap on thw wrist Mozillo got last week, that the banks will tell the government to ignore the lost paper work and the government will go along with it in a last ditch effort to maintain the staus quo.
    Meanwhile on Wall Street, the Plunge Protection team will keep propping up the stock market until after the Republicans ride in in November and make sure the tax hikes on the wealthy are put on permanent hold.
    But honestly, it is fun to watch the circus and I am surprised at how poorly they Brotherhood of Darkness is running the show.
    Aimlow Joe was here.
    http://www.aimlow.com

  52. asoka October 18, 2010 at 2:54 pm #

    empirestatebuilding said: “it is fun to watch the circus”
    Yes, it is fun. And it will be more so if Republicans get control of the House and bring government to a halt and then start to work on elimination all those “entitlement” programs like Social Security, Veterans Administration, Dept. of Education, etc. They want to stop big government as their circus act. Should be fun to watch.

  53. welles October 18, 2010 at 3:01 pm #

    ….we don’t need yur stinkin’ government.
    why do you think we’re in this mess? because only one side did/does wrong by the country?
    wake up. go write for katie kouric’s ‘blog’ perhaps.

  54. Cash October 18, 2010 at 3:08 pm #

    If you want to talk about confiscating the monumental pile of wealth stolen by corporate execs I’m all ears. I think that unreasonable compensation for the managerial class has been one of the major causes of present day troubles. Reasonable self interest is OK in my books but the unrestrained greed we’ve been seeing is not.
    I think that, used reasonably by reasonable people, corporations can be a good thing. IMO they can be an effective legal mechanism by which different groups of people can contract with one another for goods or services. But what we’ve been seeing is not reasonable. For the sake of so called “shareholder value” (and let’s not forget executive bonuses) the North American economy has been gutted through offshoring.
    IMO, among people behaving reasonably, charging interest on loans and paying interest on deposits is reasonable and fair. I think that there should be no free lunches and that includes the use of money. I think that artificially suppressed interest rates for a lot of the past 20 years have been one of the major causes of the troubles we’re seeing today.

  55. RAW October 18, 2010 at 3:23 pm #

    Who’s worried about a few $trillion fraud with Peak Oil and Climate Change just over the horizon.

  56. asoka October 18, 2010 at 3:29 pm #

    Welles doesn’t need my stinkin’ government. Close down all the VA hospitals, fire all those government paid VA doctors, stop all those social security and disability checks, because Welles does not need my stinkin’ government.

  57. trippticket October 18, 2010 at 3:34 pm #

    So the question remains, ‘have you heard enough yet?’ Have you flipped on the tele to watch the local bobblehead express their incredulity at what’s going on yet again? Have we wiped out enough species yet? Have we fouled enough of the precious fresh water supply with our excrement and toxic run-off from the Cheez Doodle farm? And now this.
    I used to have this vague idea that I wasn’t as smart as the folks running the money options in the US. That I was just a lowly ecologist and gardener, happy to spend my days pondering fertility cycles and Liebig’s Law. Now I’ve come to find out that the moneychangers are the most inept of all. Like so many others they cover their incompetence with fancy terms and theories. It seems I’m the sharp one after all.
    Have you had enough yet? What more will it take? Does the honeybee have to go extinct, taking with it a sizable portion of our luxurious diet? How about the last of the salmon on the cold Pacific coast? Are there enough left to even feed to your stupid cat? When the tap goes dry in Phoenix, then LA, will you have anyone to blame but yourself?
    HAVE YOU HAD ENOUGH YET??
    We don’t need anything else to go wrong. We didn’t even need this. I can only shake my head at the morons who think “it’s not time to grow our own food yet” because whether or not Jim is right, it’s WAY FUCKING PAST TIME to do more than just grow your own food. It’s time to capture your own water, recycle your own wastes and graywater, rebuild local community, and give these corporate thugs a double dose of the finger.
    A revolution has begun in earnest. It’s quiet, it’s studied, and it’s very effective. Permaculture, transition town initiatives, relocalization, radical reductions in consumption. We are busy undermining the power structure before it brings us all to our knees. And you’re being left out.
    It’s way past time to be outraged! It’s one thing to “get it,” and a whole ‘nuther to fight for your life. Stop crying, stop bitching, and stop with the incredulity already! Start finding your way down the energy mountain, through the twilight, before the only path available to you is the sheer cliff above the dark abyss. The models are out there, waiting for you to finally understand the gravity of what’s at stake. Find the one that works for you, and get on with it.
    Unless you’re just too big a pussy.

  58. HeatherS8 October 18, 2010 at 3:43 pm #

    I just finished The Witch Of Hebron and loved it even more than A World Made By Hand! Everyone should read their own copy this month, if they haven’t already!
    The idea of Peak Oil and Collapse appeals to me. This Witch ALWAYS felt like an uncomfortable imposter in a world of horrifying dissonance. The veils are finally lifting, is all.
    I try to balance my perspective between recognizing the sinister conspiratorial possibilities and having faith in the default power of mindless clusterfucking. Hopefully, society’s problems only stem from ignorant greed.
    Unless humans broaden their collective perspective beyond polarizing Xenophobia and opportunistic exploitation, we’re due for a major collapse of civilization, if not planetary cleansing. Maybe it’s the cockroaches turn to enter the evolutionary race against destructive technologies, decode The Messages of The Pulsars and win Galctic citizenship for Planet Earth.

  59. Zev Paiss October 18, 2010 at 4:11 pm #

    I suspect the banking powers that be will just snap their fingers and all will be well again, foreclosures will return and we will again be rocketing towards some unknowable future where the rich get richer and the rest of use are left fighting over the scraps.

  60. asoka October 18, 2010 at 5:24 pm #

    This week’s title is interesting. If we have a surrealist vista (surrealism was a 20th century movement), then it may be a good thing.
    But the essay this week doesn’t really fit with what surrealism was about. Surrealism adopted a positive conception of art, based on the exploration of language and the Freudian theory of the unconscious.
    Unless the word “surrealist” is meant to indicate a situation that is based on an alternate reality. Surrealism was seen as a means of joining dream and fantasy to everyday reality to form an absolute reality, a surreality. (Surrealism developed in reaction against the “rationalism” that had led to World War I.)
    The rationalists are still firmly in charge, and we have not yet created a surrealist vista. Everything that is happening is explainable without resorting to fantasy.
    And the proper response to our present situation is to demilitarize in our war against nature, to adopt permaculture as a way of life, to function more in rhythm with nature, instead of looking rationally at how much nature can be exploited (blindly ignoring unforeseen consequences).
    In fact, we need a little more surrealism and a little less rationalization. I hinted at this in a past post on sacred permaculture.
    http://www.sacredearthinstitute.org/permaculture.html
    Life is sacred!

  61. turkle October 18, 2010 at 5:53 pm #

    What many Tea Partiers and similarly minded political partisans fail to realize about government, and the US government in particular, is that it floats the economy and our entire society in general. Without a strong, centralized government, America would not be where it is today.
    Examples…
    1) The epic bailout of the financial industry. The government pumped almost one trillion dollars into the private banking system, without which it would have collapsed, certainly causing another Great Depression, not to mention the destruction of many financial institutions.
    2) The bailout of GM and other auto companies, saving them from bankruptcy and dissolution, which would have occurred under a pure free market system. This would have been horrible, throwing thousands of people out of work, not to mention destroying a pillar of the US economy (cars and their production).
    3) The 500 billion+ bailout of the states, which included numerous infrastructure projects, without which the states would be completely bankrupt with no money to do anything.
    4) The approximately trillion dollar per year military, which among other things, secures areas of resources for the immense yearly consumption of each US citizen and makes the world safe for international corporations that employee many Americans.
    5) The huge number of high-paying jobs provided by government agencies, without which the middle class in America would be basically dead.
    6) The regulation and provision of complex inter-state systems, such as the communications network, the interstate highway system, the electrical grid, etc.
    7) The huge and immensely costly social safety net, without which many more Americans would be homeless, poor, and destitute.
    8) Systems such as Medicaid and Medicare which provide health care, because our privately organized health care system is too expensive for most people.
    9) The billions of dollars funneled into research and development projects in the academic and private sector, which these institutions would not undertake on their own, preserving some measure of technical and economic competitiveness and innovation.
    I could go on here, but I think I’ve made my point. The US government is not rogue or evil like some kind of Communist dictatorship. In fact, without the US government’s constant intervention and stewardship, America would be a far worse place to live, with a much lower standard of living, etc. I don’t know how someone can look around at what the government actually does in society and call it evil or wrong. Without it, we’d be even more screwed.
    Sure there is fraud and waste in the US government, like any big organization, but at what level? Most of the really big financial problems it faces (e.g. “the deficit”) are from entitlements, which people demand access to. The main problem in the US is that the Republicans, especially under Bush II, completely gutted the tax base by extending undeserved tax cuts to the wealthy and very wealthy. This had the effect of ballooning government deficits, which Clinton had gotten under control by the time he left office. His predecessor felt no such obligation, and we are reaping the consequences.
    I don’t buy the rhetoric of people like Ron Paul, about abolishing the Federal Reserve. I want to ask him how much he enjoys his free, government-provided health care package, among other perks from his government paid position.
    And another thing, if you hate government so much, what are you doing running for public office? Is this not like a grade school teacher claiming they hate children? If the private sector is so great, then why don’t you stay there?
    Now try and see if you can reply to this post without calling me names like “Bleeding Heart Liberal” or “Communist,” because I am neither.

  62. george October 18, 2010 at 6:01 pm #

    I am beginning to think that the only way out of the giant clusterfuck that is bearing down on us from every direction is the establishment of martial law. Democracy is utterly useless when the populace can’t agree on proper codes of conduct and the least-intelligent among us hold the balance of power [i.e. The Tea Party]. Now that the rule of law has been discredited and the only institution capable of enforcing any moral and legal authority is the military, why not dissolve the executive, judicial and legislative branches and have all their functions devolve to a military dictatorship where the chain of command, protocol and tradition are enforced by lethal force?

  63. turkle October 18, 2010 at 6:08 pm #

    And BTW I am by no means against private enterprise. It does some things superbly well, such as providing manufactured products. You probably don’t want a government made car. That’s why even the military outsources their production to private companies. Competition is good in this realm. The private sector also does fine with providing simple services of limited time duration (haircut, package delivery, auto repair, etc.).
    However, the private sector fails dismally and/or is inappropriate in most areas that require long term outcomes, e.g. the American private health care system, which is a complete mess. It also often falls down when long term cooperation is required among different entities that use the same shared infrastructure (e.g. inter-state roads). Private enterprise is also inapplicable (or should be) when there is no profit motive (or shouldn’t be), hence why we have free police and fire fighting service.
    Without the government, we would be back in the days of wage slaves working for peanuts (no minimum wage), with no safety net (no unemployment insurance, no food stamps, etc.), and fraught with danger (no government safety regulations).
    The good old days really weren’t. Government can and does make things better, all the time. Like any big system or organization, it is rife with inefficiencies, fraud, and top-heavy bureaucracy, but I can’t fathom this “throw the baby out with the bathwater” attitude that some Americans seem to be taking lately, especially since we are set to reelect a bunch of Republicans, who have proven their incompetence again and again. For Pete’s sake, the last president to attain a balanced budget was a DEMOCRAT, and Republicans are supposedly the party of fiscal prudence? What a laugh. I thought we learned our lesson(s), but I guess not.

  64. turkle October 18, 2010 at 6:13 pm #

    George,
    Democracy is a messy business and in the words of Winston Churchill (whose words I will now butcher): Democracy is a bad system. It is just that all the other ones are so much worse.
    And also, we already live in a police state (somewhat). American has the largest number of people in prison, both per capita and and in raw numbers. The police have been militarized, both in equipment and in mentality. The martial control of the populace seems to be a done deal.
    And personally, I don’t see the Tea Partiers being a threat to societal order. They are allowed to express their political opinions, and they should do so. It is when people stop talking and pickup their weapons that I worry. The trend of angry disgruntled males going Rambo at their workplace/schools/etc. is particularly disconcerting to me.
    But I see no problem with a bunch of Tea Party people getting together and holding up signs, talking about how they hate Obama, etc. I just think they’re flat out wrong in many of the political assertions they make and I will voice my contrary opinion when I get a chance, on the internet, in person, and at the ballot box. But you’re allowed to be wrong. That’s part of democracy and it is part of having free speech.

  65. mika. October 18, 2010 at 6:13 pm #

    Another excellent post, Gregg.
    I like all 3 solutions. All three should be applied concurrently, with a 4th solution. The 4th solution needs to deal with the actual physical persons that comprise the clique that controls the world’s capital/resources. Many of them hide behind legal instruments and abstractions, but with a proper investigation they can be tracked down, identified, and outed publicly.

  66. asoka October 18, 2010 at 6:31 pm #

    Very well said, Turkle.
    You forgot to mention all those government employees employed by the government in the Border Patrol. Those government employees are arresting hundreds of thousands of immigrants each year.
    When one of the neocon/Libertarian/Republican/Conservative/Tea Baggers starts in on how we need to cut spending, I’m thinking we should start with cutting out the border patrol.

  67. tommymoore October 18, 2010 at 6:38 pm #

    “..said proletariat has been reduced in this country to some kind of a lumpen slobeteriat of methadrine-addled, tattooed psychopaths with axes to grind..”
    LAWL LAWL LAWL (as my cynical progeny might type)..
    Gad – the tea-baggers’ fear of ‘socialism’ may entail (gasp!) terror of a trend toward Canuckistanism – horror of horrors!
    Imagine: medical insurance leashed and controlled, instead of a free-for-all feeding frenzy of profiteering, prisons run by government, realistic energy pricing, somewhat safe city streets.. the horror, the horror..

  68. Bustin J October 18, 2010 at 6:55 pm #

    All this talk about Permaculture has me squirming in my seat.
    Bill Mollison’s Permaculture sits on my desk. I have travelled and seen Permaculture firsthand. I have taken the course and sat in on the campfire sing-along.
    Permaculture, it seems to me, as a niche business in the US, is mainly the business of selling courses and consulting. While this is fabulous, it does not supplant agriculture’s function of feeding mass numbers of people.
    The problem with Permaculture as an agriculture alternative is that, to my knowledge, there are no profitable, competitive, or surplus-producing Permaculture farms- anywhere.
    I read this textbook-sized book by Bill Mollison and I see little chance that the layperson is going to achieve the objectives therein. It it simply too complex for the average person.
    In other words the layperson has about as much chance in performing Permaculture successfully as a layperson has in performing brain surgery. And a large chance of performing it poorly.
    Making people feel good is a great business model but, since it does not feed mass populations, it is no alternative at all.
    Mollison worked out a great system for people who live in marginal areas like the outlands of Australia, in homesteads, to eke out a subsistence under the persistent threat of drought. I suppose that he worked out an even better system of making money off the idea. It is a brand, a buzzword, and a suite of techniques for understanding local energy flows. But there is no proven track record of producing food surpluses.
    If cities want to become self-sufficient in food, they can do better than planting the median strips with perennial vegetables and fruit trees. They can start off supplying one hundred percent of their own food production needs with vertically integrated hydroponics, genetic engineering, and alternative protein sources from algae and fungi.
    The bottom line, as I see it, is that no one is going to accept the regression to dirt farmer, no matter how gloriously advertised its benefits. First-world people want prestigious occupations with little physical labor. Farming is neither prestigious nor easy.
    With farming (any kind of work involving dirt and/or plants or animals) being low-paid, low-prestige labor, I don’t think we’ll see anyone jumping on the bandwagon. Women aren’t going to do it because it’s physical. Men won’t do it because there is no prestige or money in it to attract a woman.
    The young might be fooled for a little while with some idealistic drumming and chanting, but eventually these digital kids are not going to accept the analog existence. There is no future in growing food, and has not been for a hundred years or more. It is an activity for marginal freaks, convicts, and immigrants.
    Finally, Permaculture will fail in the urban environment simply because it will never produce the amount of food that the urbanizing population consumes.
    Permaculture is simply English gardening on steroids. It is rearranging the landscape for human habitat, food, and fiber.
    My personal conviction is that humanity must now retreat back within its own ecological footprint, and begin relinquishing undeveloped and agrarian areas to the wild. The only way modern urban centers are going to feed everyone, while releasing land back to nature, is if the urban centers where people live produce their own food.
    My problem with Permaculture is that it continues a traditional pattern of agricultural land use. Its just a new variation on the general theme of converting wildness to cultivation. I do believe in the possibility of humans influencing energy flows to create local traps to escape entropy. I don’t think that most people have the art or science to do it. And starting with land that could quickly and easily slip back to wildness is a waste of that land.
    I believe the trend must be converting cultivation to wildness, and bringing production into urban centers. Permaculture has its place within those bounds. As a philosophic hobby.
    I just can’t see turning the valuelessness of a lawn into some sort of victory garden on steroids. This seems discouragingly like last man standing behavior. For the most part, all these major problems coalesce into one big lifeboat we’re all in. Everything else seems to be luck, because it is luck. Unlike the Australian outback, interdependence is now mandatory. For all its admirable focus on efficiency, its techniques don’t have the magnitude of payback that our army of stomachs requires.
    By all means tear up your grass and plant veggies and raise chickens. Every little bit counts. From my perspective it is a better aesthetic use of waste land. But it will provide meager shelter from the four horsemen of eco-apocalypse bearing down on us. Mollison had the luxury of a back up plan in case of the mega-drought- move to Adelaide and get a real friggin’ job.
    Permaculture is a brilliantly laid out schematic of the past. Mollison and Fukuoka will make great future required reading and discussion fodder for the genetically engineered 4th grade grad students of 2030. But they’ll be sustained by genetically engineered hydroponics that don’t need soil. Their tissues will be nourished by fungal and algal protein, probably extruded from a tube and provided in an array of Lucky Charms shapes. And they will love it as they rocket toward careers in growth industries like nanotech and molecular medicine.
    Boomers are the likely recipient of all this Medicare-state life-extension technology. They will be overjoyed, no doubt, that there was no social or economic incentive for those children to pick up hoes and shovels and become dirt farmers- worthless occupations with no future.
    I imagine some Boomers in these golden years to not mind the passage from sentience to Perma-compost but they will be singing a different tune watching their peers bounce around on sleek new prostheses and growing their skin, teeth, and hair back with internal nanotherapeutics.
    Permaculturists of the future, living with unexpected increases in lifespan and under some sort of climate-sheltering bio-dome, are going to think back on how simple they thought the world was. And the new sprouts, the test-tube fetuses with law degrees, will need the sort of practical wisdom only a 140-year old can provide.
    So if Permaculture gets those geezers out in the sun and doing some physical labor, I’m all for it. I’m just not going to drink that Kool-Aid.

  69. mika. October 18, 2010 at 6:57 pm #

    When one of the neocon/Libertarian/Republican/Conservative/Tea Baggers starts in on how we need to cut spending, I’m thinking we should start with cutting out the border patrol.
    ==
    Why not start with asoka’s welfare stipend?

  70. trippticket October 18, 2010 at 7:19 pm #

    “The problem with Permaculture as an agriculture alternative is that, to my knowledge, there are no profitable, competitive, or surplus-producing Permaculture farms- anywhere.”
    Long-standing discussion in the movement. To me, it’s comparing apples to oranges. The reason permaculture works is because it doesn’t try to replace big agriculture. Agriculture is the problem. It’s based on expansion of markets, expansion of technology. Expansion of humans. None of which are part of a sustainable future. I’d like to think that a hefty adoption of permaculture could spare us. If there’s something that can, I believe this is it. But the reality is that there are too many mouths to feed without cheap petroleum. Period. But continuing on that path isn’t the answer either, because it would only produce more mouths to feed. See where the cipher begins to break down?
    Permaculture isn’t meant to do what agriculture did. If it did, it wouldn’t be a solution to the problems created by agriculture.

  71. Crazy Horse October 18, 2010 at 7:21 pm #

    BS of A News Service
    November 3, 2010
    Today President Obama announced that he has mandated a solution to the Robo-signer glitch that has been holding up the process of transferring mortgages from deadbeat buyers to the rightful owners. Starting on January 1, 2011 the only verification of title to real estate that will be recognized will be the modern and highly efficient computerized documentation system MERS. It will replace the existing archaic and inaccurate recording system which required paper documents susceptible to fire and rodent damage be stored at county courthouses. All county court recorders are instructed to immediately mail all title documents in their possession to MERS or its agent for incorporation into the updated data base.
    Due to the diligent budget-balancing efforts of the Obama administration MERS has only four current employees, so the administration has subcontracted the data transfer process to the highly respected firm of Goldman & Sacks. County recorders are instructed to endorse all mortgage documents in their possession in favor of Goldman Sacks in order to facilitate their incorporation into the national data bank.
    As a footnote, President Obama announced that an agreement has been reached to preserve the two party political system. Intense top level negotiations have led to a merger of the remaining elements of Mr. Obama’s political party (formerly known as The Party Of Hope) with the remnants of the old Republican Party with which it shares a total commitment to the sanctity of executive bonuses and maintaining the illusion of a free market. The issue which proved so intractable was one of principle: 50% of the negotiators insisted that the new party be called the Republicrats, while the other half held firm to the traditions embodied in the Demorepugnant name. The issue was finally resolved by agreeing to call the merged organization the Do Nothing Party in recognition that the public already knew it by that name.
    Meanwhile the new majority party (formerly known as the Tea Party) is having pitched battles of it’s own over their leader Barbie’s insistence that the party change its name to the Grizzly Party. But that’s next week’s story folks!

  72. turkle October 18, 2010 at 7:24 pm #

    Many conservatives (so-called) these days seem to want to make a joke out of everything.
    Unemployment is at 10% and much greater in certain demographics and job sectors (about 17% in the construction industry). Government welfare is the only life line that some people have between them and being homeless and destitute. Just because you have never had to use it (I presume), doesn’t mean you won’t need it in the future. It is a matter of circumstance, which can change very quickly. Many people in the middle class have discovered this in the last couple years. There is nothing shameful or funny about using the social safety net. It is a matter of survival for many, e.g. whether or not they can eat and not live on the street.
    Conservatives need to think of other people sometimes. Just because you don’t use some particular service or feature of the government doesn’t make it wrong or unneeded. Other people are not going to go away and disappear because you don’t like the social programs they use. Grow up.
    And BTW I’m pretty sure asoka is not on welfare but there would be nothing shameful or wrong about it if he was.

  73. Ivo October 18, 2010 at 7:24 pm #

    BustinJ:
    When I first read Mollison book back in the early 80’s, as interesting and novel as it appears on the surface, it was little more than systematizing what peasant cultures have been doing for eons. I grew up in an immigrant Italian community in Baltimore, MC in the 60s. I still have many found memories of my peasant grandparent’s intensively cultivated, very small urban space. Composting, rain-water collection, root cellars, chickens and a very wide variety root crops, vegi and fruit, all supplemented with wild forages, fish and game. Nothing was wasted, not even the butts from Pall Malls, they were use as a pesticide in the garden.
    All this was a way of life for my grandparents and many of neighbors, no one needed fancy names, big books or courses to learn what was largely innate and common sense to anyone who has lived within the land and for who money culture was never more than a few dollars a day from what jobs could be had. They were certainly poor, but the meals and the joy at the dinner table were anything but.
    Permaculture is little more than a manifestation of white skin privilege.

  74. bproman October 18, 2010 at 7:27 pm #

    Go directly to jail, do not pass go, do not collect $200.00 dollars.

  75. trippticket October 18, 2010 at 7:29 pm #

    “Finally, Permaculture will fail in the urban environment simply because it will never produce the amount of food that the urbanizing population consumes.”
    See Havana, Cuba post Soviet collapse for an immediate debunking of this claim.
    Oh, and by the way, they now refer to those years as their “special period.” Sounds terrible, doesn’t it?

  76. Paul Kemp October 18, 2010 at 7:30 pm #

    Yes, it takes a mighty talent to make apocalypse amusing, but to sum up today’s epistle, “We are screwed!”
    Rather than wallow in despair or thrash around in anger, I have been working on a Plan B to form a cooperative mutual aid system to quickly recoup our losses and enable us to move to safer places.
    If you are thinking along the same lines, visit me at http://tinyurl.com/23xg848
    Some parts of the globe will do better than others during this brewing crisis. Now is the time to internationalize your income while things are still fairly stable. Interested?

  77. Diogenes October 18, 2010 at 7:57 pm #

    In the next contract that my boss asks me to draft I’m going to insert the following dispute resolution clause:
    “In the event of a dispute arising out of the Parties performance of this Contract, the Parties shall endeavor to resolve such dispute through friendly negotiation. If the Parties cannot resolve such dispute amicably, then the Parties shall resolve the dispute by means of PAPER-SCISSORS-STONE, which outcome shall be binding upon the Parties.”

  78. trippticket October 18, 2010 at 8:07 pm #

    “My personal conviction is that humanity must now retreat back within its own ecological footprint,”
    One of the prime movers of permaculture.
    “and begin relinquishing undeveloped and agrarian areas to the wild.”
    Ditto.
    “The only way modern urban centers are going to feed everyone, while releasing land back to nature, is if the urban centers where people live produce their own food.”
    Permaculture.
    “My problem with Permaculture is that it continues a traditional pattern of agricultural land use.”
    Permaculture is probably the first and only actual paradigm shift away from the agrarian way. It’s horticulture. Completely different on every account.
    “Its just a new variation on the general theme of converting wildness to cultivation”
    It’s a system of land and cultural repair. What you’re talking about is agriculture…again.
    “I do believe in the possibility of humans influencing energy flows to create local traps to escape entropy. I don’t think that most people have the art or science to do it.”
    I’m glad humanity’s not relying on you.
    “I believe the trend must be converting cultivation to wildness, and bringing production into urban centers. Permaculture has its place within those bounds.”
    Permaculture IS those bounds.
    “I just can’t see turning the valuelessness of a lawn into some sort of victory garden on steroids. This seems discouragingly like last man standing behavior.”
    You have a very warped sense of what permaculture is and is not. There are 3 ethics driving permaculture, and the second is “Care of People.” Not “bunk up solo with your taters and shotgun.” Mad Max is a lot more like Heinberg’s “last man standing” scenario.
    “Unlike the Australian outback, interdependence is now mandatory”
    Is this getting old yet? Once again interdependence is part and parcel of permaculture.
    “For all its admirable focus on efficiency, its techniques don’t have the magnitude of payback that our army of stomachs requires.”
    This may be the closest thing to truth in your post. Except that permaculture’s focus is on interconnection, not efficiency. Hell bent on efficiency is what got us here. Oh, and I don’t expect the whole army of stomachs to be around with permaculture, and certainly not without it.
    “Permaculture is a brilliantly laid out schematic of the past.”
    Except that is a linking science, drawing together all of humanity’s best ideas, regardless of era.
    I won’t bother quoting the rest of your inane drivel. You haven’t the first clue about permaculture or its power, and you’ve made that abundantly clear in this post. Likewise, you have roughly zero grasp of the Laws of Nature and physics. Oil made us, not the other way around. Or, to quote Wagelaborer, economy is a subset of the environment, not the other way around. Energy gets increasingly expensive from here on, friend, and Mother Nature is very clear about how this will go. Read it again, or not, I don’t care, but don’t try to represent knowledge about something you do not know. You’re doing the world a huge disservice.
    Get a grip, man.

  79. mika. October 18, 2010 at 8:11 pm #

    Government welfare is the only life line that some people have between them and being homeless and destitute.
    ==
    You are wrong.
    Government welfare is the lifeline that keeps the smiling thieving fascists in power. Without these government payouts (bribes really), people would’ve long ago rebelled against the stupidity that is the fascist/corporate state, and would’ve stopped contributing tax payments on a national debt that overwhelmingly goes to support the corporations.

  80. Desertrat October 18, 2010 at 8:16 pm #

    Erik, I built the house myself on land I’d owned since 1984–for which I’d paid cash. Never a bank involved in any of it…

  81. trippticket October 18, 2010 at 8:23 pm #

    The 3 ethics of permaculture:
    1) Care for the Earth
    2) Care for People
    3) Reinvest the surplus created by the first two (and originally included “set limits to growth and reproduction” but apparently that was too controversial)
    The 12 principles of permaculture, according to David Holmgren, the co-originator:
    1) Observe and interact
    2) Catch and store energy
    3) Obtain a yield
    4) Apply self-regulation and accept feedback
    5) Use and value renewable resources and services
    6) Produce no waste
    7) Design from patterns to details
    8) Integrate rather than segregate
    9) Use small and slow solutions
    10)Use and value diversity
    11)Use edges and value the marginal
    12)Creatively use and respond to change
    Not exactly your typical agricultural directives.

  82. ozone October 18, 2010 at 8:41 pm #

    Heya, Tripp,
    Good to see you hands-up and growlin’. ;o)
    Doing NOTHING in these times is no longer an option.
    You might not enjoy seeing yourself as a “warrior of innovation”, but it might be that’s thrust upon you. I approve, anyway; and I would encourage those who have not done so before to visit your blog and read your insightful commentaries. (Most valuable, IMHO.)
    …And what’s up with the denigration of hand/hard labor? I’ve done a lifetime of it and I don’t see it as something I have to be ashamed of, nor has it made me [particularly] stupid (or more stupid than I already was). S’pose that might be too much indoctrination? “Kick back in the lounger with a beer and some cheezy-puffs, we’ll take care of the rest…” (translation: Doing anything for yourself brands you a loser/loner and a fool.)
    Guess we’ve got to hearken back to this week’s parable of the pig-herding lentil-eater. ;o)

  83. wagelaborer October 18, 2010 at 9:27 pm #

    asoka, I’m shocked by your using the 2,000,000 imprisoned Americans as proof that we have rule of law.
    Those are overwhelmingly poor people, put in prison for smoking dope, or drinking and fighting.
    The rich get away with murder, literally, breaking national and international laws with impunity.
    http://wagelaborer.blogspot.com/2010/01/collapse-of-facade.html
    I was listening to NPR today, and they were droning on about how Obama just HAD to appeal the overthrowing of the Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell rule, because Obama all about the law and such.
    Yeah, that’s why Bush and Cheney have gotten off scot-free for their breaking of US and international law.
    That’s why Obama voted to make the overthrowing of the FISA law RETROACTIVE, which is illegal in itself!!, thereby making the companies which broke the law retroactively law-abiding.
    Unlike the guy in Guantanamo, cited for breaking a law which they passed two years after he was locked up!
    Dude – they’re out of control, and you of all people should know it.

  84. wagelaborer October 18, 2010 at 9:28 pm #

    Oh, yeah, and don’t forget that Obama promised to filibuster that bill, and instead, voted for it.

  85. SoylentGreenAU October 18, 2010 at 9:46 pm #

    yes Tripp – I have had enough .
    I am just like a rabbit in the head lights though.
    I have no means to escape the pit trap. I may not have anywhere to live if my rolling 3 month contract isn’t renewed. And that barely lets us keep the lights on.
    Sometimes I think most people will just need a grenade the family can stand around if it gets too bad.

  86. trippticket October 18, 2010 at 10:00 pm #

    “Heya, Tripp,
    Good to see you hands-up and growlin’.”
    Ha! I feel a bit like a bear today. Maybe it’s a product of my infant son waking up every hour on the hour last night, and a wholesale lack of REM. But I still hosted a work party today (a little community building interdependence;), got some salvaged lumber cleaned up and ready for building a chicken coop and goat shed, and built and installed 3 gates for my rotational livestock system. Briggs, my dual-purpose goat, is not happy about being isolated from the chicken feed!
    Hey man, I’m with you on the manual labor issue. I’ve been an air-conditioned cubicle jockey before, with a fat paycheck and company Tahoe to boot, and I’d take my poor, labor-intensive life today over that every day of the week and twice on Sunday! I already have a wife for keeps, so attracting a honey with my dirty fingernails and sunburned neck is a total non-issue. She even likes my wide-brimmed straw hat and graying goatie!
    Entitlement works in lots of ways, and these guys obviously prefer someone to do their dirty work for them. Which is understandable. Being avant garde in a previously unpopular direction requires a manly sack, as you well know. Lucky Charms of extruded algal protein grown in vertical hydroponic systems? And that’s the move back toward a smaller ecological footprint? Not in this reality.
    Thanks for the props on my blog, brotha!
    (www.smallbatchgarden.blogspot.com)
    Tripp

  87. asoka October 18, 2010 at 10:07 pm #

    Wage said: “Dude – they’re out of control, and you of all people should know it.”
    The “authorities” are in control… and they are controlling 2,000,000 people in the prison system and keep them there because the “rule of law” has not broken down.

  88. networker October 18, 2010 at 10:19 pm #

    Asoka, maybe if you click your heels together and wish upon a star it will come true.
    Speaking of which I had to Google (see I DO learn from you Asoka) that term “Go-Go Ultra X Electric Travel Scooter” – just to see if it was real. And it is! I’ve seen them in the Walmart parking lot. Go figure. Personally I am jonesing for the Flyscooter Scout: http://www.flyscooters.com/scooters/scout
    110 ccs of pure retro fun. The gubmint will have to pry it out of my cold dead hands! Not that I think they give a damn whether I have one or not.
    lsjogren said,
    “Government dictates interest rates, hence the yield curve, hence how much money banks can make on interest. Government dictates the amount of money banks are allowed to create out of thin air as a multiple of their reserves.”
    No it doesn’t. The Fed decides interest rates and the quantity of money. The Fed is NOT the government in any way shape or form – it is a group of PRIVATE banks. I wish people would stop thinking that the Fed is the government – it is NOT.
    See this link for a bit of historical perspective:

    The video cannot be shown at the moment. Please try again later.

    Or read some Ellen Brown. Gregg’s got it 100% correct – get rid of fractional reserve lending outright. That’s partly what the video is about. The rest of it is a fascinating history of the conflicts in our American history over who does control the money supply. Highly recommend it.
    DesertRat and erikSF99, I thank God every day because I don’t have a mortgage. I guess we must be extraordinarily fortunate because we paid cash, the previous owners owed outright, and built the place themselves in the 1960’s.
    Lynn, has vegetarianism clouded your highly-evolved human brain? The problem is NOT “eating meat.” The problem is industrialized factory farming, BOTH vegetables and meats. Human beings evolved eating meat and animal fat. It is good for us, it is why we developed our human intelligence, and it is especially good for the soil, IF the animals are raised properly.
    Some referential reading for you:
    http://www.beyondveg.com/nicholson-w/hb/hb-interview1a.shtml
    http://www.westonaprice.org/abcs-of-nutrition/267-myths-of-vegetarianism.html
    Puzzler, that was a bit distracting, I have to say.
    BustinJ, you are entirely missing the point. Gardening and farming ARE unfortunately about saving ourselves in the face of the collapse, of cities, of infrastructure, of money, of other people. Whether people “accept the regression to dirt farmer” or not is irrelevant. The point is that their only other choice WILL be to starve. I don’t personally worry about my garden being properly “permaculture” because I believe in learning by doing, but hey if a bunch of guys want to study theory and write books and sell seminars, there are a lot of people out there who could use the knowledge.
    And women farm all the goddamned time, you sexist idiot.
    TrippTicket, it’s frustrating isn’t it :)
    Heather, speaking of rampant sexism, WMBH and Witch of Hebron represent some of the worst drivel I have ever encountered in my life. His publisher should be taken outside and beaten.

  89. trippticket October 18, 2010 at 10:21 pm #

    I really feel for you. All this talk about lost mortgages and free rides makes me wonder why I bit the bullet and bought a $3000 wreck of a house in the ‘hood with the last of my money! But my garden is coming along nicely – the greens, lettuce, broccoli, cabbage, kale, chard, turnips, and spinach are doing their thing; my chickens are getting close to laying; I’ve got a freezer full of pork and poultry; and I’m studying up on graywater systems and humanure as fast as I can.
    If you can make it here you can camp in my back garden and help me get this thing moving for real. I’d love to have another PDC holder to contribute to system resilience. I’ve even got a tent and air mattress you could use.
    Course, for the price of moving to the States, you could probably buy 10 times the land I have for yourself there…still…if things got real desperate…

  90. trippticket October 18, 2010 at 10:44 pm #

    On the meat issue, vegetarians drive me nuts, especially the self-righteous types. But Lynn has a point for most meat. It does take more energy to produce most meat, even if you just consider that animals utilize secondary sunlight instead of being the primary harvesters like plants. The higher up the food chain you are, the more embodied energy is represented in your tissues, and each level is logarithmic too. Humans are WAAAY up there, which is why we are having this discussion in the first place.
    BUT, and I want to make that BUT bigger but I don’t know how (short of bacon and butter). BUT, grass-fed beef is not only supremely adapted for production on this continent, but if managed correctly, a net sequestration of atmospheric carbon can be realized via this husbandry, with a juicy ribeye as nothing more than a bonus gift. Methane comes from cows raised on unnatural feedlot diets. Dark earth and nutritious beef comes from appropriately grass fed cows.
    Win-win in my opinion.

  91. cbwim October 18, 2010 at 10:51 pm #

    Hitler reacts to the Foreclosure Fraud crisis:






  92. helen highwater October 18, 2010 at 10:52 pm #

    So Asoka, you think Social Security should be abolished. Just exactly how are all the old folks who are living on it supposed to keep food on their tables and a roof over their head if there is no Social Security (which they paid into all their lives, by the way). Are you one of those people who believe that if somebody can’t pay for it themselves they shouldn’t have it? Like food, medical care, shelter, etc? What about people who never earn enough money to save a bundle for retirement? Are they just supposed to go off somewhere and die? I really would like to hear how you think a lot of people would survive if Social Security were abolished. And Medicare – I suppose you think that anyone who can’t pay for a healthcare plan should just die??

  93. trippticket October 18, 2010 at 10:53 pm #

    And when you eat a grass-fed cow only one animal dies. An animal that depends on our eating it for its success as a species actually! Nothing like harvesting a field of soybeans, killing countless bunnies, mice, moles, voles, ground birds, and insects. Not to mention displacing so many others with your tilled soybean monoculture.
    This is a moral superiority built on a foundation of ignorance.

  94. helen highwater October 18, 2010 at 10:55 pm #

    Thank you, thank you Turkle. I get so incensed when I hear these tea party morons blabbing about how we should just get rid of the gubbmint. They would be up shit creek without all the services that are provided by government, but they are too dumb to see that. I’ll bet a lot of them are even living on Social Security at the same time that they are screaming for it to be abolished. Too weird.

  95. grassroot October 18, 2010 at 11:04 pm #

    The big banks’ “moratoria” could be renamed “moritoria”.
    As in, “We who are about to die…”

  96. asoka October 18, 2010 at 11:05 pm #

    networker said: “Speaking of which I had to Google (see I DO learn from you Asoka) that term “Go-Go Ultra X Electric Travel Scooter” – just to see if it was real. And it is!”
    Networker, I have no idea what you are talking about. I have no idea what an Ultra-X Electric Travel Scooter is, nor have I mentioned one in any of my posts. Are you OK? Try clicking your heels together and maybe you will start making some sense.

  97. helen highwater October 18, 2010 at 11:09 pm #

    You seem to think that genetic engineering, fossil fuels, plastics and all the other acoutrements of high-tech intensive gardening/farming will always be with us. You even think we will live under climate-controlled domes! You are definitely not seeing the same future that I am. When the fossil fuels are too expensive to product anymore, none of that stuff is going to be readily available. But Permaculture will still work because it doesn’t require any of that stuff. It might not always be “profitable, competitive or surplus-producing” (which are the characteristics of industrial agriculture) but it will feed the people who do the work when industrial agriculture no longer exists. The days of 1% of the population doing the work that feeds the other 99% will be over and everybody will have to get their hands dirty of they want to eat.

  98. k-dog October 18, 2010 at 11:10 pm #

    J K handed me my signed copy at the Seattle bookstore and said ‘enjoy’. I did and am happy to hear from someone else who likes the W of H as much as I. Too bad I read fast. :(
    The end of your post where you mention cockroaches decoding the secrets of the pulsars and thus earning galactic citizenship for earth and all their kind is something I completely understand.
    I’ve been thinking of a plot for a SI-FI book I’ll never write where spider-like or cockroach-like creatures from outer space invade earth, take over all humanity by eating away our brains keeping our bodies for themselves to inhabit and operate.
    My book would happen in the darkest hour of the long emergency but when the takeover happens in the long emergency is irrelevant.
    Fast forward 300 years to the Galactic Census.
    Humans are living in a verdant rich world of magnificent sustainable cities in harmony with their environment. All the dreams of all the lofty Utopians of times past have been realized.
    The earth is a green gem of human culture and achievement, peace and harmony rule the earth.
    The interstellar census probe knowing perfection when it sees it never gets close enough to observe that humans no longer have brains, not a one. Alien cockroaches eat away the brains of their human hosts that each will inhabit for life before the human birth.
    The cockroaches stop the long emergency dead in its tracks when they take over.
    Heather, you ask if society’s problems only stem from ignorant greed.
    Human greed stops when the cockroaches take over.

  99. networker October 18, 2010 at 11:14 pm #

    Asoka, read the sentence again. See the part where I said “I had to Google” there? The parenthesis (see I DO learn from you Asoka) refers to that. English 101. That’s what I learned from you. Googling everything. Then I went on to talk about scooters :)

  100. asoka October 18, 2010 at 11:18 pm #

    Helen, re-read my post. I never said Social Security should be eliminated. I said if Republicans win control of the house the Republicans try to eliminate Social Security (or, as they say “privatize it”).

  101. SoylentGreenAU October 18, 2010 at 11:19 pm #

    Hi Tripp,
    Thanks for the offer, but I would have to drag my brood along hehe. A bunch of illegals flying in this time :)
    My sister in Law is from LA, her Mum is out at the moment and we were talking about our favorite bloggers, JHK came up lol.
    Land here is really expensive, and crap. The Ponzi scheme hasn’t crashed yet. If I can keep my job, and land prices plummet, then I have a chance to get back in the game. I really miss having chooks.
    They can be like houdini though, seem to escape all the time and want to go in the house.
    I really enjoyed getting my PDC, it’s frustrating renting a flat where I can’t use it. The flat I rent just got sold for $400k – madness…..so we will be moving again, the 6th time in 3 years. Hard to put down roots.

  102. asoka October 18, 2010 at 11:26 pm #

    Tripp said: “a juicy ribeye as nothing more than a bonus gift. Methane comes from cows raised on unnatural feedlot diets. Dark earth and nutritious beef comes from appropriately grass fed cows. Win-win in my opinion.”
    Tripp, your specie-ism is just as offensive to me as the racism, sexism, homophobia, and xenophobia expressed regularly on this site.
    Win-win? The cow is dead, dude? If the animal killed and ate you, and then shit you out to enrich the soil, would you consider that a “win-win”?
    Get a clue, Tripp. Life is sacred. Stop rationalizing the murder of animals.
    Doesn’t make a bit of difference whether it is mass murder from factory farming or staring Daisy in the eye while you slit her throat. Both are murder, pure and simple.

  103. networker October 18, 2010 at 11:30 pm #

    Asoka, last time you jerked off, did you “save” the little critters? I mean, it’s murder if you didn’t.

  104. asoka October 18, 2010 at 11:32 pm #

    Networker, I have never advocated using Google. If you have followed my posts I have regularly criticized using surface Web sources. What I have advocated is using deep Web authenticated sources, peer-reviewed scientific literature, and citing sources. You have learned nothing about Google from me. I advocate source evaluation using critical thinking and corroboration.

  105. asoka October 18, 2010 at 11:35 pm #

    networker, you are really being offensive this evening with your “click your heels” and “Google” comments. And now this?
    Google this: Brahmacharya

  106. networker October 18, 2010 at 11:42 pm #

    On a more serious note Asoka, death IS what makes life sacred. Death is part of the circle, it is purely and simply the way God made the world. If you have a problem with animals and humans eating each other, you really should take it up with God.
    And it absolutely makes a difference, especially to the cow. By one method the cow lives a sick, miserable, cruelly confined, painful life. The other way, she lives naturally and happily right up to the second she dies. You sweeping dismiss the cruelty to animals as inconsequential, and you have the gall to shriek “specie-ism”?
    Of course killing animals is murder, but it is entirely natural and correct that it should happen, and that we should eat them. You need to get over your sense that humans should only be here to make the bunnies and the wolves play nice together. What a profoundly sad misunderstanding of Nature herself. Is it so hard for you to get your mind around the fact that humans are also animals? Perhaps you could meditate upon why it is so important to you to imagine yourself “higher.” Toward that end, I highly recommend Daniel Quinn’s excellent book “Ishmael.”

  107. Rodo October 18, 2010 at 11:45 pm #

    I appreciate most comments in this blog. I watched Jim on The End Of Suburbia years ago. He is one of my heroes. I have not read his books yet. This is my first comment on this blog. I am hardly prepared for what is coming. Where I live now I met only one engineer who was aware of the – the Tragedy of the Commons – when I mentioned Peak Oil. In general, people know things are getting worse everywhere. But there are some engineers who are still optimistic about the future, they still believe on technology. Real socialists I listen to on the radio here, are the ones that probably make more sense, because they can find fault with the government and the system, although they do not mention Peak Oil. For them, it is the workers against the oligarchy and the empire; for now they are a small minority. Public transportation is only by bus. It is a small country, water is plentiful. Brazil is our neighbor. The economy is improving, although poor people are very much a reality. Now, I have to leave. Got to catch the bus.

  108. networker October 18, 2010 at 11:47 pm #

    HAHAHA I did Google “Brahmacharya” – Asoka are you seriously claiming that you don’t jerk off??
    OH MY GOD THAT EXPLAINS A LOT!!!
    This is fall-down hysterically funny, I am so sorry but I just fell off my chair laughing! You really do see yourself as superior, dontcha :)

  109. networker October 18, 2010 at 11:54 pm #

    OMG Asoka you HAVE to read this, if only for a humorous edification:
    http://www.beyondveg.com/nicholson-w/moral-omniv/morality-omniv-1a.shtml
    Tripp, you should read it for the humorous content alone :)
    Here is an excerpt for you lazy people who don’t wanna click on links:
    “And by way of analogy, sure, when you’re weighing the ecological costs, maybe the way things are getting to be these days, a vegetarian diet would use the planet’s resources more efficiently. So much more efficiently, in fact, that we might possibly be able to cram 10-plus billion people onto the planet instead of just 5 or 6 billion. I mean, let’s go for a new all-time record everybody, and crowd even more animal species off the planet than have already been bumped off by our modern “green revolution” that plows over half the planet’s arable land, all the while destroying other animals’ habitats while supplying us with plant crops. Crops that have always enabled humans to overpopulate and infest the planet like the rabbits that chew on my lawn greenery, and later get splatted flat in the middle of the road in front of my house by blunt rolling metallic projectiles.”

  110. k-dog October 19, 2010 at 12:00 am #

    * 1 litre of goat’s or cow’s milk
    * 170 g cereals
    * 85 g leafy vegetables
    * 140 g other vegetables
    * 30 g raw vegetables
    * 40 g ghee
    * 60 g butter
    * and 40 g jaggery or sugar
    * fruits according to one’s taste and purse
    * 2 sour limes (juice taken with vegetables or in water, cold or hot)
    * salt according to taste

  111. asoka October 19, 2010 at 12:05 am #

    networker said, with apparently no sense of irony: “Perhaps you could meditate upon why it is so important to you to imagine yourself “higher.”
    I have never claimed to be “higher.” Perhaps you should meditate on why you think you have the right to kill other species of animals. Do you also think killing and eating members of your own species is OK? What about animals that have a higher cognitive capacity than humans? Still OK with eating those animals? You are on a slippery slope, networker.
    I recommend you read some of Peter Singer’s books: Animal Liberation; Animal Factories; Writings on an Ethical Life, or his recent article:
    SINGER, PETER. “SPECIESISM AND MORAL STATUS.” Metaphilosophy 40, no. 3/4 (July 2009): 567-581.

  112. networker October 19, 2010 at 12:14 am #

    Bullshit, you totally think you are “higher.” I don’t need to meditate upon why I have the right to kill other species, for two reasons: 1. I already have, and 2. because it is so blindingly obvious that God naturally made us to eat animals. Tigers eat “higher cognitive” humans with no problem or protest from God. What makes you think you know better? And quit trying to pin “animal cruelty” on me – I was the one who JUST pointed it out to you, moron.
    I have never tasted human flesh, mostly because I believe it wouldn’t be healthy (all that mercury and pesticides), but if I were starving I would try it. And so would you. You just don’t realize that yet :)

  113. cowboy October 19, 2010 at 12:17 am #

    I have been a rancher all my 62 yrs on earth. Been readen Kunstler for several years and never felt the urge to post anything until i just read the nonsense that Asoka wrote. Cattle eat grass which is not digestible by humans. Millions of acres of land in the US and much more world wide are only capable of producing grass because of weather and soil that prohibit the farming of crops. Beef is an excellent source of protein for humans (i assume Asoka is human) and during the difficult times ahead, protein will be scarce if you do not like eating bugs or dogs. Read the journals of Lewis and Clark that were written by them. You will see just how much trouble they hand in just surviving. Every days entry usually began with what was killed for food and who killed it. At one point they traded with Indians for dogs to eat for several weeks while traveling through desert type country. I will take beef over dogs every time. God blessing to all you readers.

  114. networker October 19, 2010 at 12:18 am #

    And here, while you are not reading my links (because you already know everything as usual) here is another one that pretty much sums up what I believe about eating meat:
    http://www.westonaprice.org/health-issues/287-ethics-of-eating-meat.html

  115. networker October 19, 2010 at 12:25 am #

    Cowboy, thank you for the breath of sanity. There is a concept called rabbit-starvation that the indigenous tribes understood very well – a lack of good animal fat in the diet is deadly, although it happens slowly over time. It is also nutritionally necessary and has been scientifically proven to be so – we literally evolved into the large-brained creatures that we are BECAUSE of a high fat diet. We certainly didn’t evolve on B12 tablets, that’s for sure.
    Then again I suppose Asoka could be vegetarian because it makes it easier for him to refrain from masturbation (loss of libido and all):
    http://www.westonaprice.org/mens-health/251-mens-health-magazine.html

  116. k-dog October 19, 2010 at 12:29 am #
  117. asoka October 19, 2010 at 12:29 am #

    networker said: “God naturally made us to eat animals.”
    Let’s examine that one a bit:
    Intestinal tract length.
    Carnivorous animals have intestinal tracts that are 3-6x their body length, while herbivores have intestinal tracts 10-12x their body length. Human beings have the same intestinal tract ratio as herbivores.
    Stomach acidity.
    Carnivores’ stomachs are 20x more acidic than the stomachs of herbivores. Human stomach acidity matches that of herbivores.
    Saliva.
    The saliva of carnivores is acidic. The saliva of herbivores is alkaline, which helps pre-digest plant foods. Human saliva is alkaline.
    Shape of intestines.
    Carnivore bowels are smooth, shaped like a pipe, so meat passes through quickly — they don’t have bumps or pockets. Herbivore bowels are bumpy and pouch-like with lots of pockets, like a windy mountain road, so plant foods pass through slowly for optimal nutrient absorption. Human bowels have the same characteristics as those of herbivores.
    Fiber.
    Carnivores don’t require fiber to help move food through their short and smooth digestive tracts. Herbivores require dietary fiber to move food through their long and bumpy digestive tracts, to prevent the bowels from becoming clogged with rotting food. Humans have the same requirement as herbivores.
    Cholesterol.
    Cholesterol is not a problem for a carnivore’s digestive system. A carnivore such as a cat can handle a high-cholesterol diet without negative health consequences. A human cannot. Humans have zero dietary need for cholesterol because our bodies manufacture all we need. Cholesterol is only found in animal foods, never in plant foods. A plant-based diet is by definition cholesterol-free.
    Claws and teeth.
    Carnivores have claws, sharp front teeth capable of subduing prey, and no flat molars for chewing. Herbivores have no claws or sharp front teeth capable of subduing prey, but they have flat molars for chewing. Humans have the same characteristics as herbivores.
    But aren’t humans anatomically suited to be omnivores?
    Nope. We don’t anatomically match up with omnivorous animals anymore than we do with carnivorous ones. Omnivores are more similar to carnivores than they are to herbivores.
    SOURCES: http://bit.ly/15gFQa
    Comparative Anatomy and Taxonomy
    http://www.tierversuchsgegner.org/wiki/index.php?title=Taxonomy

  118. k-dog October 19, 2010 at 12:31 am #

    The hog-pen, care of which is your new career.

  119. asoka October 19, 2010 at 12:31 am #

    networker, you really should stop before you embarrass yourself more. It is so obvious you know nothing about sublimation and transmutation of energy.

  120. networker October 19, 2010 at 12:47 am #

    K-dog, please reference this page, written by Dr. Barry Groves. There are actually four or five pages about the exact dimensions and capabilities of human, dog, and sheep digestive tracts. (see Part 1: Introduction | Part 2: Dog | Part 3: Sheep | Part 4: Man | Part 5: Conclusion at the bottom of the page.) You have got it backwards.
    http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/carn_herb_comparison4.html

  121. networker October 19, 2010 at 12:49 am #

    And Asoka, my very presence seems to transmute your energy. You simply cannot deal on clear-thinking level. Period.

  122. asoka October 19, 2010 at 12:51 am #

    Cute, but irrelevant.

  123. networker October 19, 2010 at 1:05 am #

    K-dog in addition,
    1. Humans have an intestinal tract that is far shorter and closer to carnivores than to herbivores. We also do not digest or ferment cellulose. Nor do we chew our cud.
    2. We have highly acidic stomachs. Ever heard of ant-acid?
    3. Our saliva is also highly acidic, just like carnivores.
    4. We are omnivores, we can digest SOME vegetable matter, but meat is digested far more quickly and efficiently, with very little waste. Ask anyone eating low carb how much less they have to poop.
    5. We have short and small colons, just like carnivores. Herbivores have long, complicated colons, complete with the aforementioned extra stomachs.
    6. We have absolutely no biological need for fiber. “Needing fiber” was a concept dreamed up by a Presbyterian minister named Sylvester Graham in the 1830s who was obsessed with chastity and proscribed a high fiber vegetarian diet in order to control lust. (Recognize anyone here?)
    7. Saturated fats and cholesterol make up the very membranes of our bodies – we are literally MADE of it. Almost every single cell in our bodies produces cholesterol ALL the time during all of our lives. Get your facts straight. Cholesterol is not the boogy-man you have been led to believe.
    8. Teeth: carnivores and humans have canine teeth, herbivores do not. Period. When was the last time you went to the dentist?
    Again, read that link I posted, it gives even more information about it:
    http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/carn_herb_comparison4.html

  124. networker October 19, 2010 at 1:08 am #

    Asoka, if you even once showed the tiniest smidge of interest in anything other than your own navel, I might have a better answer for you. But as usual, you wore me down with your myopia.
    Night, all!

  125. asoka October 19, 2010 at 1:10 am #

    Cowboy, thanks for coming out of the shadows to post a response to what you call “Asoka’s nonsense”.
    You say: “Beef is an excellent source of protein for humans (i assume Asoka is human)”
    I can vouch for the fact that Asoka is an ordinary human being. Ain’t nothin’ special about Asoka.

  126. Lord Humungous October 19, 2010 at 2:22 am #

    I’m pretty much done with all my weight-training and body-building. So I’m moving forward to the next phase of tribal buildup. To that end I’m purchasing weapons, hockey-masks, road-warrior cars, gasoline, leather straps, dried beans and such. And of course I’m also starting to recruit tribal members.
    Anyone who wants to join the tribe please drop me a note and your CV. All our welcome, particularly if you have experience hitting people over the head with clubs. We’re particularly interested in recruiting fertile breeding females.

  127. eightm October 19, 2010 at 2:37 am #

    from :
    http://kunstler.com/blog/2010/10/bank-shot.html
    “Look at what was invented in the 19th/early 20th century.
    Internal combustion engine, rail transportation, electric light, electric motors, powered flight, refrigeration, telegraph, radio, television, mechanization of agriculture, the theory of relativity, quantum mechanics…you could go on and on.
    What have we invented that was remotely as transformational as those inventions above? You want to talk “new economy” you have to look back a hundred plus years.
    I think what we’ve done in recent decades is puny. The internet in my opinion is exceedingly small potatoes in comparison. Space flight maybe?
    So are we mental midgets in comparison to those days?”
    The low hanging fruit is the easiest to get: all of those inventions, which are huge were the simplest to make, the low hanging fruits. Those were the first to be picked, but as Science and Technology progresses, it becomes increasingly difficult to pick valid fruits (if there are even many left at all) since they are hanging much higher, like fusion energy, or Man trips to Mars, etc.
    You can discover Electricity only once, the natural world does not offer another discovery as powerful, all encompassing and incredible as Electricity: this is a one time free quirk of nature and the laws of physics and how we, as humans, are configured with respect to nature with just the right combination of sense organs and mental contraptions to process and interact with reality.
    The same can be said of Calculus and Mathematics, Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, etc. Silicon technology and Microprocessors and Moore’s law and heck, even the electric guitar and rock music are really all one time quirks, free lunches, something that can be discovered only once, and I doubt very much that in the future there will be any other such huge discoveries even possible. What we have now is the problem of how to use these discoveries, and that becomes a political problem.
    Maybe the only thing really left is the direct manipulation of brain – mind, the direct changing of our neural circuits, implanting chips in brains, experimenting with all kinds of drugs and wild chemicals in brains, creating Instant Singularities in the brain, virtual realities, etc. But this does not really imply “new discoveries” as those huge ones mentioned previously were like Electricity and Flight, but self manipulation of the brain and body, this is more chemical and drugs and “health care” – “pharmaceutical” and maybe “computer – virtual reality” based than anything else.
    The Internet is just as transformational as flight, space travel or cars: it is the ultimate transportation machine, any place at anytime instantaneously, you just need to transfer the information of a place, not the physical place. Every point on earth (and more) is connected to every other point, indeed eventually everything can be connected to everything. So I wouldn’t try to limit inventions to only the 19th or 20th century: the real limit is that you can invent the Internet only once. There are only so many really transformational inventions possible, and I don’t see many left to find in the future.
    You can also say that a very refined virtual reality can be infinitely transformational: just one huge invention or artifact that has a transformational power millions of times greater than all of the previous ones combined is needed. You don’t need to keep on inventing or discovering new items like Electricity or the Internet, such large transformational inventions are no longer needed once the ultimate invention is made: a total virtual reality, or the technological Singularity or the Instant Singularity completely transforming minds – brains – sense organs, etc. is needed.
    Indeed you can create a virtual reality that simulates new laws of physics where you are inventing huge transformational items like Electricity everyday if you have fun with that: only the informational relationship and interaction being equivalent to when Electricity was invented is needed to create a similar experience.
    Another thing I noticed in the last few years is how a lot of technology has really peaked and we are essentially fighting against other people, their decisions and will power and not against matter – physics and natural limitations: if you designed or repaired a color TV in the 1980s you were fighting against physics by creating circuits and designs to optimize electronic functions, it was an objective kind of activity, everyone that could contribute, contributed as in the accumulation of knowledge, as a serial labor activity, as in labor accumulates and creates more results and wealth, as a “common good”, in that each invention or perfection led to better results: today a digital TV system is just an aggregate of arbitrary designs and systems all decided by other people according to standards according to their free will, you essential fight against other people and not against nature.
    The same reason why software has not (and will never progress) as opposed to hardware: hardware is objective, accumulative, labor is serialized, there are only objective ways to improve a CPU or memory chip whereas in software, everyone has a different “standard” or quirk way of doing things in mind, every program is its own quirky system, one time design, made up of thousands of arbitrary will powers designing it with hugely inefficient programming languages and choke full of politics, office politics and economic fights, etc.
    I remember when JAVA and Object Oriented came out, at the time there was PASCAL that was way better and more advanced, but JAVA dominated: a throwback of decades in software, and at that point I realized that software will never advance because it is essentially politics, and then how many programmers would you need if all the major programs where well written in PASCAL ? maybe a few million less…

  128. eightm October 19, 2010 at 2:54 am #

    “Another thing I noticed in the last few years is how a lot of technology has really peaked and we are essentially fighting against other people, their decisions and will power and not against matter – physics and natural limitations: if you designed or repaired a color TV in the 1980s you were fighting against physics by creating circuits and designs to optimize electronic functions, it was an objective kind of activity, everyone that could contribute, contributed as in the accumulation of knowledge, as a serial labor activity, as in labor accumulates and creates more results and wealth, as a “common good”, in that each invention or perfection led to better results: today a digital TV system is just an aggregate of arbitrary designs and systems all decided by other people according to standards according to their free will, you essential fight against other people and not against nature.
    The same reason why software has not (and will never progress) as opposed to hardware: hardware is objective, accumulative, labor is serialized, there are only objective ways to improve a CPU or memory chip whereas in software, everyone has a different “standard” or quirk way of doing things in mind, every program is its own quirky system, one time design, made up of thousands of arbitrary will powers designing it with hugely inefficient programming languages and choke full of politics, office politics and economic fights, etc.
    I remember when JAVA and Object Oriented came out, at the time there was PASCAL that was way better and more advanced, but JAVA dominated: a throwback of decades in software, and at that point I realized that software will never advance because it is essentially politics, and then how many programmers would you need if all the major programs where well written in PASCAL ? maybe a few million less…”
    And this ties in nicely why “hot new skill sets” is a farce: back then, you accumulated a skill set according to objective limitations, a good circuit designer was valid and could be measured objectively: today a good programmer is undefined because the languages and styles and buzz words always change ( on purpose so corporations can always hire and fire and have the excuse of people not having the right skill sets that are always changing, arbitrary quirks that don’t lead to nothing and are contrasting labor processes as opposed to serial and accumulative labor processes) , in a subtle political fight to see who dominates who, but only according to the present fashion, according to what is perceived as innovation, or innovative, and in fact most that is considered innovative today is decades old and mostly a bunch of crap.

  129. Eleuthero October 19, 2010 at 3:35 am #

    Over a century ago, the criminologist
    Claude Pinel said “Societies get the
    criminals they deserve”. I would extend
    that statement to “Societies also get
    the politicians they deserve and the
    professionals they deserve”.
    The rot does not stop at the top nor does
    it sprout from the criminal classes and
    stop before it hits middle class. This
    is the SECOND DARK AGE. Like the first
    one, intelligence is mocked. Modesty is
    replaced by rapaciousness.
    Social behavior like that depicted in
    Chelsea Handler’s “My Horizontal Life”
    actually makes the New York Times bestseller
    list though it’s one of the scummiest BRAGS
    I’ve ever seen in print. Charles Bukowsky
    was the soul of self-effacement by comparison.
    It takes a teacher at a public school (a CC)
    where my average student is over thirty to
    see that even AGE now guarantees no refinement,
    no competence, no sense of duty, no drive, and
    no ordinary care.
    I’ve been told by many that my choice of THIS
    academic year (March 23, 2011 to be precise)
    to retire was most fortunate. And indeed it
    is because EVERY instructor at my CC has told
    me that they’ve gotten 30-50% drop rates BEFORE
    the midterm. In English. In Accounting. In
    Spanish. In Math. In CS.
    Something wicked this way comes. It is palpable.
    My students and all the other faculty’s students
    are just people … a cross-section of the Bay
    Area. And the Bay Area, in a media age, is just
    another place in the “global village”. I think
    we’re heading for a very serious social debacle
    within ONE year. One. I hope I’m wrong but
    in just one short year the entirety of my school
    has gone from merely bad to classes with a near-
    sociopathic level of neglect and horrid demeanor.
    Could be a skewed sample. Sure doesn’t feel like
    it.
    E.

  130. rocco October 19, 2010 at 3:44 am #

    Good Morning all:
    Jim thanks another direct look into our mafia business model. I am asked our town council/supervisor if our inner burb can have 3 chcikens for each household to get ready for energy descent world that is coming. They are Republican Conservative-Global Economy, Ayn Rand Business believers. They all read Altas Shurged, like its holier than the bible. Not to worry they claim, the market will heal us and deliver us. We lost power in the early evening last week for 6 hours, my wind up lamps and laterns were excellent,and some of my neighbors who are trying to prepare like me, also were ok, but the rest of them panic, worry, dazed and confused, wow its going to be interesting.

  131. Eleuthero October 19, 2010 at 3:48 am #

    Well said, NW, about human diet and a tip
    of my hat to Cowboy as well. There’s so
    much horseshit in books about diet. Humans
    have CANINE teeth and they are genetically
    very well-coded for digestion of mammal meat.
    Birding doesn’t work too well except for birds
    that DON’T FLY (it’s a cinch to catch a chicken
    or a turkey but a day’s work to bag a quail with
    a shotgun). Early N. American hunters probably
    got boars and rabbits for dinner a helluva lot
    more than birds.
    Of course, the alleged “Buddhists” on this site
    might give some sort of Californicated diatribe
    about “murdering” animals but the Dalai Lama
    himself eats meat. About the only food that
    doesn’t involve murder is gathering fruit from
    trees. Well, a few nutters have tried a
    fruit-only diet like Arnold Ehret, a famous
    aesthete, and he died in his mid-50s … not
    exactly a ringing endorsement.
    Dietary zealotry has spawned some of the most
    oddly vituperative and scientifically dubious
    movements in the world. They’re as bad as
    Holy Rollers.
    E.

  132. Eleuthero October 19, 2010 at 3:52 am #

    Before somebody else does … yes, I know
    Ehret allegedly died by falling on a slick
    street. This attribution is now widely
    questioned. Even if he fell, how many
    people under SIXTY die from a simple fall
    on wet pavement?? I’ll bet Ehret’s
    constitution was VERY frail.
    E.

  133. Eleuthero October 19, 2010 at 4:02 am #

    When Jim talks about all the wrong paperwork
    in the mortgage biz, it just makes me more
    adamant that it’s a GENERAL Dark Age. Few
    have an honorable sense of duty any more.
    Indeed, it’s precisely honor and nobility that
    are seeping out of ordinary people. You know,
    the very kind of people who filled out and filed
    that bureaucratic paperwork for title companies
    and banks.
    It permeates all sectors of work, the family, and
    communities. It’s precisely right now that the
    VIRTUOUS are going to suffer because they care
    and caring is for “squares”.
    E.

  134. Eleuthero October 19, 2010 at 4:07 am #

    NW said:
    “And Asoka, my very presence seems to transmute your energy. You simply cannot deal on clear-thinking level. Period.”
    You’re just discovering this, NW??! :-) :-)
    How can one come across as “clear-thinking”
    when he’s being a self-anointed “Buddhist”
    who thinks he has “crazy wisdom” one day
    and a fact-a-holic wiki quoter the next.
    I think this guy has more personalities than
    than five ordinary schizos combined. Okay,
    maybe six or seven. Or he’s just a normal
    Gen-Y’er. :-)
    Just recite this poem, Asoka:
    “Roses are red, violets are blue, I’m
    schizophrenic and so am I.”
    Cheers,
    E.

  135. HowardJohnson October 19, 2010 at 5:51 am #

    James,
    A really superb piece, thanks for capturing the essence of our current mess so well. Dare I hope the right set of events play out to fix this, vs. the banks just getting another gov. bailout.
    Cheers,
    H.

  136. welles October 19, 2010 at 7:18 am #

    ….re trippticket’s permaculturosity etc and the comments that were directed against it —
    someone can correkt me if i’m Wrong:
    1 – producing just 5% of one’s own food in one’s own Victory Garden would make an enormous [positive] difference w/respekt to energy consumption, depletion of aquifers, pesticide runoff etc. We don’t need a wholesale replacement of mass agriculture by permaculture to make a net-Positive Contributory Change.
    hasn’t it been demonstrated that if every adult in the US planted one tree, the net carbon effect would be felt on a global level?
    sumwun please back me up or shoot me down.
    feels like it’s Time everyone got SelfContain’d.

  137. lbendet October 19, 2010 at 9:19 am #

    E,
    “I think we’re heading for a very serious social debacle within ONE year. One. I hope I’m wrong but in just one short year the entirety of my school has gone from merely bad to classes with a near- sociopathic level of neglect and horrid demeanor.”
    As you have probably gathered is that I have always felt in the background that the things we take for granted about our civilization could slip into darker territory. What we perceive on the surface of our culture has a flip side. Can’t avoid the multifaceted nature of ourselves no matter how we try to over-simplify. (That’s why fundamentalism drives me crazy.)
    Your description of the students at your cc is an age-old problem. Learning isn’t just about sitting in a class and being lectured to/or reading proscribed text. For some reason the public school system has failed to avail students to the tools to explore any given subject. It means taking extra time out to explore. Whether it’s checking out a library or going out into the world to observe, people seem to assume someone else should provide them with all the information they need just to pass a test.
    Not that I’m claiming to be any great shakes in the intellectual realm, but it’s really all about application. Learning anything makes no sense unless you take everything around you and synthesize the book learning with the empirical.
    When I was in school as a Painting major, I was taking a drawing class. One day a debate ensued as a student asked the professor why he didn’t teach them how to really draw. I think my blood pressure hit some astronomical high! How could anybody think someone can teach them their own handwriting? Nobody can teach you that, it comes from somewhere inside you, hopefully as a synthesis of intellect and the motor skills.
    I said there’s a library right across the street with the most amazing folios of drawings from the Quattrocento, ie. and so much more. Why don’t you check it out? Go to museums and really look at the details of work you think can help you get where you want to go. Even just taking a walk and observing what’s around you is as important as anything someone can teach.
    Sitting at the computer and googling is helpful, but you still have to connect with the world around you. That’s what your students have failed to appreciate and why learning doesn’t resonate with them. The decline of culture doesn’t help.

  138. networker October 19, 2010 at 9:22 am #

    Eleuthero thanks, it is hard to stop gnawing on Asoka’s leg bone – he just brings out the carnivore in me I guess :) Anyone who wants to impose his own stilted beliefs upon the rest of us is beyond arrogant, but he also clearly believes that his dietary approach puts him on the path to Virtue, as though it makes him morally “good” if he drinks wheatgrass juice instead of having bacon and eggs for breakfast. (Really, it only gives him the runs.) He even trys to deny his own innate human nature, sexual and otherwise, and I believe therein lies the clue to what drives his weird imbalanced rantings. Don’t get me wrong, he can be ascetic-ly vegan all he wants, (go ahead, make yourself weak Asoka) except for the fact that he jumped into the discussion screaming that eating meat was akin to racism (“specie-ism”) and proceeded to sanctimoniously damn the rest of us who don’t follow his pompous way.
    BeyondVeg says it better:
    “This vegetarian immorality and hubris of wanting to take it upon themselves to redesign the balance of nature knows no bounds. If vegetarians got to create creation in their own image and had their way, there’d probably be no carnivores or omnivores at all….No more lions and tigers and bears (oh my!). No sirree! Just a Wizard-of-Oz fairytale existence where everything is Emerald-City green, populated with plants and squeaky, smiley, feel-good munchkins stunted by generations of eating nothing but green, green, and even more green. And all you’d have to do is click your ruby-slippered heels three times, and you’d be transported to the fantasy world of your dreams where nothing in nature ever kills anything else at all.”
    “But back to the real world. Doesn’t it seem just a bit strange that where killing for food is concerned, few condemn the revered Native Americans and all their past buffalo hunting, who are held in such high esteem that movies like “Dances with Wolves” portraying them have won Academy Awards, with even the vegetarians crying crocodile tears while eating their popcorn in the front rows of theaters everywhere? Somehow I guess the fact the Indians killed the buffalo with some sense of compassion about the poignancy of its (and their own) place in the overall scheme of things is an example of conscientious human behavior that really isn’t so hard to conceive of after all, huh?”
    eightm just so you know, if I see your name at the top of a post now, I automatically scroll through it without reading – they are just that silly. I should try that with Asoka’s as well.
    Lord Humungous, you are going to need a lot more than beans if you plan on road-warrioring around. And take it from me, babies seriously tend to slow you down. What you really need are level-headed women who can shoot, hunt, forage and be able to ask for directions.

  139. asoka October 19, 2010 at 10:44 am #

    networker said: “I should try that with Asoka’s as well.”
    Yes, please do. I am an ignorant fool.
    You should not read, nor should you waste time responding to anything a fool writes. Thank you.

  140. tzatza October 19, 2010 at 11:14 am #

    “What appears to be happening is a total freeze on the Real Estate business. Now that the ownership paper is suspect, title companies won’t insure and banks won’t lend.”
    Thats so yesterday. Read on. From today’s WSJ:
    “Two major lenders at the center of the foreclosure crisis took steps Monday to put the mess behind them by restarting home seizures that were frozen by documentation concerns.
    Bank of America Corp. reopened more than 100,000 foreclosure actions, declaring that it had found no significant problems in its procedures for seizing homes. GMAC Mortgage, a lender and loan servicer, said that it also is pushing ahead with an unspecified number of foreclosures that came under intense pressure.”

  141. tzatza October 19, 2010 at 11:18 am #

    “Yes, the “tea party” knows there’s something wrong, but their solution is more of what got us where we are.”
    Really? Hows that? More of what got us here?
    The tea party wants less government, less taxation and a return to the principles out lined in the U.S. Constitution. How the fuck is that “more of what got us here”?

  142. welles October 19, 2010 at 11:24 am #

    …except that those 100,000+ homeowners now know how to challenge foreclosure, and EVERY fucking lawyer in this lawyer-soused country is licking his contingency chops & seeking out said foreclosed homeowners.
    yep it’ll just be a breeze seizing two million homes this year won’t it? i foresee no court challenges, as there are no issues with who actually owns homes in this bizarre country, and where documents are, and if they’re signed, and if the right ‘owner’ is getting paid, and if the mortgage isn’t owned by perhaps two parties, ad nauseum.
    PLUS, since the WSJ ‘reported’ this we can guess that the banking ‘industry’ just fixed everything over the weekend.

  143. tzatza October 19, 2010 at 11:25 am #

    “This is a real forehead slapper: there’s no oversight, no regulation of the collection process.”
    So lets see. Some moron bought a house he/she had no hope in hell of paying for. Now they are in default. So get the fuck out. Like…now.
    There is absolutely no need for oversight or regulation.

  144. tzatza October 19, 2010 at 11:35 am #

    “I’m noticing a rather sharp uptick in the amount of rhetorical violence out there. Since I can’t imagine Republicans (most of whom are overweight and overexcitable) having any coherent response to the current crisis”
    Really? Well that is because you are a moron, walt. The “response to the current crisis” will be the November election. It will be historic. And after the newly elected are in place the hard work of undoing what this current bunch of childish, idiots, who actually thought that there was such a thing as a free lunch, will begin. It will be a long, grueling slog that will take decades to undo but it will begin in early 2011.

  145. tzatza October 19, 2010 at 11:45 am #

    “PLUS, since the WSJ ‘reported’ this we can guess that the banking ‘industry’ just fixed everything over the weekend. ”
    Ah, no I don’t think we can surmise any such thing. But on the very day that Jim is trying to sell a total freeze-up of the mortgage industry, two major players (Bank of America and GMAC Mortgage) announce they will restart the foreclosure process. I guess it is not quite as frozen as Jim wrote about. Like ah…things change man. Shit happens.

  146. tzatza October 19, 2010 at 11:53 am #

    “That’s why the banks hate the poor and throw them out of their homes with glee…it’s called fraud, graft, deceit.”
    What a moronic statement. What fucking bank wants to throw the “poor” out? The expense involved and the legal procedures are mind boggling. Then one ends up with an empty structure (subject to vandalism) with a current market of few qualified buyers.
    The last thing…the last fucking thing, a bank wants to do is throw people out of their homes. Its a lose/lose proposition.

  147. tzatza October 19, 2010 at 12:05 pm #

    “I get so incensed when I hear these tea party morons blabbing about how we should just get rid of the gubbmint.”
    Hmmm. I don’t think I’ve heard of a single tea party “moron” say we should “… just get rid of the gubbmint. They are calling for responsible government. They are calling for the end of utopian dreams where the government is going to provide any and all services from cradle to grave.
    Why? Cause it ain’t working. It never has and it never can work. Because when you continue to confiscate more and more from the producers (who make up a minority) and redistribute it amongst non-producers (a growing majority) you end up where we are…bankrupt.
    As Maggie Thatcher put it, “The proiblem with socialism is that eventually you run out of pockets you can pick.”
    We are there. Those who align with the tea part are aware of our situation. You being an idiot, are not. No surprise there.

  148. trippticket October 19, 2010 at 12:10 pm #

    Asoka, what you said to me was extremely rude. I made a very logical point, based on science, ecology, and human physiology, and in no way did I direct it as an attack at you.
    BUT, judging by your schizophrenic behavior, your containment of more multitudes than you seem capable of keeping up with, I can’t help but question the soundness of your dietary choices.
    It all comes back to food, and your attack on me was probably the best endorsement for including meat in our diet that we’re likely to get on this thread. So I guess I should be thankful.
    I obviously want you to study permaculture, but I’d really prefer you did the study part before casting yourself as a representative of it. Just sayin’.

  149. trippticket October 19, 2010 at 12:22 pm #

    I really like what Mika had to say up-thread about entitlement programs being “hush money” for the masses. If they weren’t getting paid, the free market would’ve over-run the financial elite a long time ago.
    I think your biggest short-coming is thinking that the current state of affairs contains a malicious component. It just is what it is. We are a product of our energetic reality, and our current energetic reality is putting the brakes on our consumption in a big bad way. If that bothers you, then by all means, work to elect the people you think will make it right. But David (political reform) beating Goliath (the free market) is just an amusing story. We’re headed into rapid balkanization regardless of who’s at the helm….because that’s how energy flows work.
    It’s just as retarded to think that anyone in power WANTS dissolution of the union as it is to think banks want to kick out their mortgage holders in a god-awful market. Well said. But that’s what’s on the way. Go find a city where people are as angry as you, and you guys can have vein-popping red-face contests to see who’s mayor. Who needs democracy when you have such reserves of unbridled malice?

  150. tzatza October 19, 2010 at 12:34 pm #

    “Who needs democracy when you have such reserves of unbridled malice?”
    You don’t seem to get it. A democratic republic is the only hope for “reserves of unbridled malice”.

  151. budizwiser October 19, 2010 at 12:35 pm #

    I got nothing.
    We did the “rule of law” thing last year when I figured some one would notice all the phony paper.
    Two things – Do you suppose the “tea party” is some kind of sarcastic practical joke the rich invented to provide fodder for their media outlets?
    Anyone care to note the remarkable ability of the rich to control the message surrounding the winding down of the Tarp program and with the help of selective accounting practices providing those incredible benefits to taxpayers? Man, that’s rich!

  152. tzatza October 19, 2010 at 12:37 pm #

    “It’s just as retarded to think that anyone in power WANTS dissolution of the union…”
    Who on God’s green earth proposed that someone in power “…WANTS dissolution of the union..”? Who the hell are you directing your comments towards?

  153. trippticket October 19, 2010 at 12:46 pm #

    Asoka, I’m curious, do the plants you eat not have a specific epithet? Last I checked wheat was known to botanists as Triticum aestivum, not Homo sapiens, and soybeans are called Glysine max, not Homo sapiens.
    This is just as severe a demonstration of “speciesism” as eating Bos taurus or Gallus domesticus.
    Not to mention that the alternative to speciesism is cannibalism! I’m afraid your diet is severely affecting your ability to reason.

  154. trippticket October 19, 2010 at 12:51 pm #

    “You don’t seem to get it. A democratic republic is the only hope for “reserves of unbridled malice”.”
    And that’s a good thing to someone else besides you?

  155. trippticket October 19, 2010 at 12:54 pm #

    “Who on God’s green earth proposed that someone in power “…WANTS dissolution of the union..”?”
    Isn’t this what you’re implying when you talk about the idiots in power giving away the country?

  156. mika. October 19, 2010 at 1:07 pm #

    I’m afraid your diet is severely affecting your ability to reason.
    ==
    Let’s not forget the jihadi salat sessions, where asoka hits his “buddhist” head against the floor 5 times a day, every day.

  157. messianicdruid October 19, 2010 at 1:08 pm #

    “Something wicked this way comes. It is palpable.”
    You will enjoy Martin Armstrong’s recent article:
    “Nice Try, But No Cigar”
    http://www.martinarmstrong.org/files/Nice%20Try%20but%20No%20Cigar%2010-9-2010.pdf

  158. tzatza October 19, 2010 at 1:12 pm #

    “Isn’t this what you’re implying when you talk about the idiots in power giving away the country?”
    I didn’t talk about the “… the idiots in power giving away the country.” I merely suggested that they are appropriating way too much from the producers to redistribute to the non-producers and that it can’t work. Math gets in the way.
    They aren’t giving away the country. They just want a country that was begun as a democratic republic to evolve into one based on socialism. Again, the current polls suggest that the results of the up-and-coming election will refute this push towards a socialistic model. Why? Look at the crumbling socialist states of Europe. Didn’t work there, can’t work here. Enough of the electorate in the U.S. has come to see Obamaworld for what it is… a failed promise that, due to a lack of funding and a reluctance to cede any more control to an out of control government, has proven to be a house of cards. (And borrowed,marked cards at that.)

  159. tzatza October 19, 2010 at 1:14 pm #

    “And that’s a good thing to someone else besides you”
    If someone can make sense out of this please explain it to me. thanks.

  160. asoka October 19, 2010 at 1:28 pm #

    networker, you dance really well.
    You danced around my question to you about cannibalism, after saying “Is it so hard for you to get your mind around the fact that humans are also animals?” and painting a tooth-and-claw picture of nature. You think it is so natural that animals eat animals. You say we are animals. Do you practice cannibalism? Are you OK with it?
    You danced around the facts I presented on comparative anatomy and physiology of hebivores and carnivores. (Comparative Anatomy and Taxonomy
    http://www.tierversuchsgegner.org/wiki/index.php?title=Taxonomy )
    You fantasize that I feel myself to be morally superior, with no evidence at all, because I have never made that claim.
    And you top it off by calling me a navel gazer.
    You always resort to ad hominem attack instead of responding to substantive issues.

  161. asoka October 19, 2010 at 1:31 pm #

    E. said: “Something wicked this way comes. It is palpable.”
    Yes, it is about two Friedman units away, just after your retirement.

  162. tzatza October 19, 2010 at 1:41 pm #

    “Let’s not forget the jihadi salat sessions, where asoka hits his “buddhist” head against the floor 5 times a day, every day.”
    Nor the headulus/rectum maneuver where he inserts his head up his ass about five times a day as well.

  163. Cash October 19, 2010 at 2:38 pm #

    Tripp, your specie-ism is just as offensive to me as the racism, sexism, homophobia, and xenophobia expressed regularly on this site. – Asoka
    SPECIE-ISM? Asoka, that is just fucking hilarious!!! Are you serious? Hard to know.
    Specie-ism… let me savour it, it’s delicious. Did you just invent the term because if you did I’m impressed. When I read it I had convulsions trying not to laugh (I’m in a library so I have to keep a lid on it). Funniest shit I’ve read in a long time. Liberalism unglued and spaced out…you have a great talent for satire.
    Listen man, come north. We have a political party up here that needs inspiration and you can give it. They’re lagging in the polls and they’re always looking for new things to feel offended and outraged over. Their leader, who reminds me of a walking talking exclamation mark, can get apoplectic wishing you good morning. You guys would get on just great. Plus our capital city (the place that fun forgot) needs guys like you.
    OK maybe politics isn’t your thing. Royal Canadian Air Farce went off the air last year. You could help revive it with material like this. Long live the Chicken Cannon! Oh don’t worry, they used rubber chickens.

  164. welles October 19, 2010 at 2:55 pm #

    ….jeeeeeezus, folks out here insisting that we fukking EAT a certain way.
    does it get ANY lamer? ????
    keep yur damn religion to yurself

  165. Vlad Krandz October 19, 2010 at 3:05 pm #

    Have you ever killed and dressed a deer or steer? It’s hard to kill something with a face like Bambi’s Dad. If one has to eat so be it. But there is something wrong with people who kill for pleasure and then have pictures taken of themselves with their foot on the carcass. It is so disrepectful of the beauty and the life that just was – which they have ended. I’m 100% for Western Man, but on this one I think the Native Americans had it right. Be humble. Apologize to the spirit of the animal. Explain why you have killed him. Thank him and say a prayer for his spirit.

  166. Paul October 19, 2010 at 3:06 pm #

    I admire JHK’s recognition that the system is broken, but the Doomsday scenarios are rather divorced from reality. There are too many players with too much invested to let our corporate-welfare state go under. This includes most of us – people with jobs, mortgages, 401ks, children, etc. Life goes on.
    And while I recognize that buying real estate is a risky venture right now, I actually did just that (contrary to JHK’s assertion that no one is doing so). It’s an old house (built 1880) in good condition, in a small walkable city, with Hudson River views. I will be making monthly payments to Wells Fargo and to the tax man, in exchange for which I expect to enjoy my fireplace, backyard, and taking strolls in my charming little town. Yes, the American economic system is a monstrosity, but I do not think the Apocalypse is in full swing at this time.

  167. turkle October 19, 2010 at 3:15 pm #

    It is so amusing to read the veiled threats like “You just wait until November!” from the angry internet brown shirts. What exactly do you think is going to happen in November? To roll anything back will require a 2/3 majority, which the Repubs will not achieve. It is all a bunch of hot air and fear mongering (like usual).
    When it comes to fiscal prudence, Republicans are even worse than Democrats. At least the Dems seem to realize (from time to time) that when government expenditures exceed revenues, taxes need to be raised or something needs to be cut or scaled back. They have done a pretty good job when given the chance. The last balanced budget was achieved under Clinton, which Bush II proceeded to wreck with unjustified tax cuts and a massive ballooning of the security apparatus.
    Republicans have been the worst at managing federal budgets going back to Nixon. Reagan and Bush II added the most to the federal deficit out of anyone. Well, perhaps Obama is getting close to matching them. At least he’s indicated that he is interested in a balanced budget, though I don’t believe it is at all realistic right now.
    So given their terrible track record it is just downright hilarious to read that Republicans are going to save us from our financial troubles come November. I’m reminded of a battered housewife that keeps returning to her husband because “It will be different this time.”

  168. progressorconserve October 19, 2010 at 3:20 pm #

    Interesting post this week, JHK. I usually agree with you nearly 90%, but this week I need to call you on something.
    I find it impossible to believe that the MBS and ARM inspired mayhem in real estate is going to take us into lawlessness and anarchy. Something else certainly may do so – but not this.
    Consider that WELL less than 30% of home loans are “upside down,” and I THINK only 10% are non-performing at the present time. Consider that the Fed is desperately pushing strings and pulling levers to get some inflation started – and 10% CPI inflation will make real estate look like a pretty good deal again – at least for a while in most areas.
    Consider that I am seeing (in Atlanta suburbs) residential rents DROP as more and more owners have put their properties up for rent somewhere – I’ve gotta say this one may not end that well because these people tend not to have a CLUE about rental management.
    Finally, in reference to title and foreclosure problems. There are certainly some HORRIBLE MESSES out there. But real estate is different from other frauds in that -somewhere out there – there is a real piece of property that has a value greater than zero.
    Keep up the good work, JHK, you are right FAR more often than you are wrong. And thank you so much for providing this forum where “mostly” like minded intelligent people can thrash it out every week.
    http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_37/b4000001.htm

  169. Vlad Krandz October 19, 2010 at 3:27 pm #

    But let’s not forget about that other boondogle – our project to Americanize and/or Westernize the entire World – which you seem to support. By what fucking right did we do this? And by what fucking right did we do it off the backs of the American People. Where is deficit spending for foreign aid/war in the Consititution?
    It’s like the old opening to the Superman show – “Truth, Justice, and the American Way”, as if these are synonomous automatically. We have to dig deeper past appearances. The Kennedys always raved about their “Commitment to Public Service” but wasn’t it really just an incomparable lust for power? Just so with the desire to “help” the world by conqering it – in reality a lust for new markets and the absolute power gained thereby.
    Your values are the values of the Greatest Generation, the Superman Show. They are superior to current values in terms of personal and fiscal morality. But the overweening pride of that era lead us straight to our current debacle. Things must be judged in the long term, not just whether they work great for a few years. But this measure the values of the greatest generation fail just like the green revolution in agriculture. Hubris both. Incredible short term gains with the price put off for future generations to pay. And then the pride and disguised lust of power that leads to imposing these flawed systems on the rest of the world.
    Superman and virtually all the Marvel Heroes were the creation of Jews. They are virtual golems who defend Jewish Interests – in this case via the imagination of the young. And as you know, no group is more in favor of this vicious globalism than the Jews. With a stoke of their pens, they destroyed the reputation of an American Hero like Lindbergh just because he thought we should stay out of the WW2 and he had the temerity to mention that they were for the war. He didn’t say anything bad about them – he just said that they and Great Britain wanted us in. This they could not forgive. Just like Sanchez, no one can mention their name or this poor weak oppressed people will destroy them.

  170. progressorconserve October 19, 2010 at 3:34 pm #

    “….at the time there was PASCAL that was way “….better and more advanced, but JAVA dominated: a throwback of decades in software, and at that point I realized that software will never advance because it is essentially politics, and then how many programmers would you need if all the major programs where well written in PASCAL ? maybe a few million less..”
    =========
    8M, I took BASIC and FOURTRAN back in the ’70’s and then WISELY decided to get the hell out of computer programming.
    But your argument works EVEN BETTER for tax accountants, lawyers, CEO’s – – basically for any overpaid occupational category where we have an excess of useful workers.

  171. turkle October 19, 2010 at 3:34 pm #

    RE: small government
    American prosperity in the last century has been almost entirely based on government programs, intervention, and growth. You are rewriting history to argue otherwise.
    Just a few examples…
    -Rural electrification program, which took the South from being an economic backwater to where it is today (basically).
    -Establishment of the Federal Reserve, which allowed massive growth of the private financial system, and a subsequent boom of the economy (roaring 20’s and all subsequent booms, etc.).
    -Intervention in WWI, which took America from an isolationist stance to one of being involved with the international community.
    -The New Deal, which probably saved America from complete collapse and possible descent into dictatorship (as occurred in Europe).
    -The massive program to convert peace time industries like auto manufacturers to a war footing for WWII. This pumped massive amounts of capital into the economy, which was instrumental in getting out of the Great Depression.
    -The GI Bill, which sent thousands (millions?) to college, and set the stage for economic prosperity during the 50’s and 60’s.
    -The construction of the interstate highway system, which has created a massive boom in interstate shipping of goods of all kinds.
    -Funding of basic R&D, which has lead to, among other recent inventions, the internet.
    -The massive US military, which aside from providing employment to millions of mostly young people, funnels billions of dollars into the private sector.
    I could go on but you get my point.
    So say what you want about “socialism.” Socialist or semi-socialist programs are what “got us here.” I’m not sure what exactly these Tea Partiers want to roll back to. Upton Sinclair, “The Jungle” anyone?
    Oh, and I didn’t know that the European countries are “crumbling.” That’s news to them. Have you actually been lately or are you talking out your ass again? Their roads, railroads, and most other infrastructure is generally better than it is here. The French get 70%+ of their power from nuclear and export more energy than any other country, in raw amounts. They have far less poverty and more equal income distributions.
    I don’t know what the Tea Partiers have as a counter-example. Coca Cola? Enron? Bernie Madoff?
    And who are these mythical “producers” whom the government supposedly fleeces? Would they be the financial gurus that almost collapsed the world economy and then went begging to the GOVERNMENT for handouts?
    Government does a pretty good job. It isn’t perfect. You’re right to be concerned about deficits and its ballooning size. But let’s be reasonable about this. It isn’t 1789. Rolling back “socialism” is not possible at this point. You’re about 100 years too late to be crying foul about it.

  172. Cash October 19, 2010 at 3:44 pm #

    Sure, an animal is a life form so don’t kill for no reason.
    But, having said that, meat is food. Always has been. Asoka does swan dives into ridiculousness. Pretending he’s offended over this new ism, species-ism, and then condemning Tripp for eating meat is ridiculous.
    I think Asia’s grandfather said don’t complain if the meat is tough. Tougher if their ain’t none.
    Asoka sounds too much like someone who’s never suffered hunger. He says he’s a 60+ year old black man. Now, I have no idea as to his socio-economic background, but I’ll bet there are black people in his age group and older that grew up malnourished in circumstances of pretty tough deprivation in the segregated south. I wonder what they would think of Asoka’s anti species-ism.
    I’ve said in other posts that my own parents grew up half starved peasants in Italy. Believe me, people like my parents that experience deprivation have zero time for the Asokas of the world and their sniffy moral affectations wrt to meat.

  173. turkle October 19, 2010 at 3:46 pm #

    What’s your point weirdo?

  174. turkle October 19, 2010 at 3:49 pm #

    Some fun facts…
    What country has seen 10% or more growth per year in their real economy over the last 10 years?
    The socialist dictatorship of China.
    Who is the largest single employer on the entire planet?
    The Department of Defense.
    The world isn’t an Ayn Rand novel. GTF over it.

  175. mila59 October 19, 2010 at 3:50 pm #

    Geeze, guys, let’s not forget that Asoka’s stance on meat-eating and species-ism is shared by many other folks in the world. It’s not as though he’s made up this belief system. I think he’s perfectly entitled to his vegetarianism or (I hope, given his writings here) VEGAN beliefs.
    I think each of us has to follow his own path in ethics and eating. Asoka has offered up some valuable links — Peter Singer is hard to resist, actually, when you read him on ethics — but then, bacon is hard to resist, too.
    You make your choices, and take your consequences.

  176. lbendet October 19, 2010 at 3:54 pm #

    Beautifully put, Turkle
    Great refute to those who don’t seem to get it. The conservative and neoliberal agenda does not build strong nation states. They keep insisting that they go in this direction but after thirty years we see that depending on the service economy to build wealth isn’t happening.
    For those who have posted that the few shouldn’t have to carry the many, that would not have been the case if our job market wasn’t being decimated by off-shoring, dismantling manufacturing and keeping companies smaller creating lots of competition. Too bad the Sherman Anti-trust laws have been all but ignored.

  177. asia October 19, 2010 at 4:06 pm #

    no one here [cept me] complained about Tripps describing ‘binding and beheading young birds’..
    but ‘they’ sure went after asoka!

  178. mila59 October 19, 2010 at 4:11 pm #

    Yeah, going after Asoka is an interesting and puzzling activity on this forum…it’s weird because there are a lot of pretty offensive things written here…and I really don’t see the offense in Asoka’s writings. He sounds like a nice guy who is addicted to trying to prove he’s right… impossible to do in a forum like this…but I just do not understand the other people’s frustrations with him.

  179. asia October 19, 2010 at 4:15 pm #

    ‘But there is something wrong with people who kill for pleasure and then have pictures taken of themselves with their foot on the carcass.’
    According to the book ‘LAST HOURS OF ANCIENT SUNLIGHT’ the species hunted in [not so paradisical] Brazil is slum children, and the gun club guys take pics of themselves beside the ‘criminal’ dead.

  180. asoka October 19, 2010 at 4:19 pm #

    There sure does seem to be a lot of defensiveness around meat eating.
    I am not telling people to become vegan. I simply said wanton disregard of other animals (and yes we are animals) is offensive to me, whether the killing is on a mass scale or on an individual scale.
    If would be stupid for me to preach not eating meat. It would be stupid of me to claim to be “morally superior” to anyone else.
    mila59 has stated my position beautifully: “I think each of us has to follow his own path in ethics and eating.” That is exactly what I believe.
    If you are offended by facts about animal factories, or by data on comparative anatomy, etc. then each one has to figure out what to do with that. I am trying to be descriptive, not prescriptive.

  181. asoka October 19, 2010 at 4:39 pm #

    CORRECTION:
    I simply said wanton disregard of other animals’ RIGHT TO LIFE(and yes we are animals) is offensive to me, whether the killing is on a mass scale or on an individual scale.

  182. tzatza October 19, 2010 at 4:54 pm #

    Turkey-lurkey sez:
    “Oh, and I didn’t know that the European countries are “crumbling.” That’s news to them. Have you actually been lately or are you talking out your ass again? ”
    Today’s news:
    “PARIS (Reuters) – Striking public sector workers disrupted travel across France on Tuesday and sporadic violence flared at protest marches as opponents of President Nicolas Sarkozy’s pension reform made a last-ditch attempt to stop it.”
    “Thousands of demonstrators rallied in London on Tuesday against harsh austerity measures being unveiled by the government this week in a bid to pay off a huge deficit”
    “(AP) Tens of thousands of students marched through Austrian cities Tuesday to demand more money for higher education in an unexpectedly large protest backed by university staff.”
    “The European Commission was warned today to leave tax-raising to the Chancellor of the Exchequer after Brussels suggested new ways of financing the EU budget.
    An ‘options paper’ to be unveiled by the commission sets out alternatives for a direct tax on EU citizens for the first time to help fund the £108billion-a-year cost of running euro policies.”
    “Thousands of health workers, council staff, firefighters, teachers and other public sector employees have joined a noisy rally in Westminster to protest against the Government’s “brutal” spending cuts.”
    “BERLIN, Oct. 18 (Xinhua) — German Chancellor Angela Merkel said at the weekend that Germany’s attempts to build a multicultural society had “utterly failed.”
    Merkel’s remarks, made at a meeting of young members of her center-right Christian Democratic Union, has triggered a public debate over how to deal with millions of immigrants who arrived in Germany during the country’s postwar economic boom in the 1960s to make their fortunes.
    Merkel said immigrants are welcome in Germany, but they must learn the country’s language and accept the country’s cultural norms.
    She said the concept of multiculturalism, long championed by the German left, had been discredited. “This multicultural approach, saying that we simply live side by side and live happily with each other has failed, utterly failed.”
    Turk, don’t bother, ass-wipe. I can make you look like the dink you are all day long, without breaking a sweat. So, shut the fuck up, wuss-boy.

  183. turkle October 19, 2010 at 5:00 pm #

    The heroic individual “producer” is a right-wing myth that has no basis in fact. It has been propped up mostly by fiction like Ayn Rand novels and propaganda about people’s inherent worth (supposedly based on the size of their paycheck). Wealth accumulation is and always has based on collective enterprises of one kind or another, ranging from collectivist hunter-gatherer tribes to modern capitalist corporations. Even the examples that conservatives use, e.g. small businesses, successful corporations, etc., are organizations of individuals carried along by all their employees and really by all of society. They are not comprised of one person carrying the whole weight or even close to it. The problem is that in the current system the people at the top of these social structures siphon off most of the gains, leaving the bottom with table scraps.
    Even in situations that seem as if one individual is completely responsible for their own wealth, it isn’t even close to being the case. Society provides the tools, the knowledge, and the structure for them to do this, even when they act alone. I think of a homesteader on the Great Plains, about as ruggedly individualistic as one could get. Where would this person have gotten their tools, their gun, their plow? Who protected them from the “Injuns”? (hint: government) Who allowed them to have their plot of land for free or for peanuts? (hint: government) Where do they get their seeds? Would they succeed without their neighbors and their family helping them? etc.
    A very wise person once said, “No man is an island.” Couldn’t have said it better myself.

  184. Bustin J October 19, 2010 at 5:15 pm #

    Trip tripped, “Finally, Permaculture will fail in the urban environment simply because it will never produce the amount of food that the urbanizing population consumes.”
    See Havana, Cuba post Soviet collapse for an immediate debunking of this claim.’
    Give me a break.
    Permaculture was in no way involved in the Cuban food crisis. In no way. Unless you think forced labor and dictatorship is Permaculture.
    In fact, authoritarian agriculture is more along the lines of the future I see us facing. It will be more like the FDA taking over Monsanto though.

  185. progressorconserve October 19, 2010 at 5:19 pm #

    Turkle must be more correct than Tzatza. As evidence, consider Tzatza’s descent into pointless insult and invective.
    ========
    “Turk, don’t bother, ass-wipe. I can make you look like the dink you are all day long, without breaking a sweat. So, shut the fuck up, wuss-boy.”
    =======
    What exactly is the point. If we were in a bar that would be a pretty good way to start a fight.
    It’s the anonymous internet.
    Who would be talking about these subjects in a bar, anyway?

  186. turkle October 19, 2010 at 5:24 pm #

    I am aware of all those events, Tza. Why do strikes, rallies, and political discussion equate to a society “crumbling” in your mind? Those are the kind of activities that constitute a lively and healthy political dialog. For instance, I don’t agree with most of what the Tea Partiers say, but I realize it is important that their voice be heard. The same goes for all opinions and viewpoints in a democratic society. And the same goes for people who don’t want their pensions benefits altered. It will probably happen anyways due to shaky government finances across Europe (across the entire world in fact), which make cutbacks inevitable.
    Democracy is a big noisy mess and it always has been. American history is full of strikes, workers riots, demonstrations, etc. This doesn’t mean that our society is or was falling apart. As those famous Brits once said, “We can work it out.”
    The national sport of France seems to be going on strike, according to a friend I know who has lived there. They all deal with it one way or another. It doesn’t mean that their country is “crumbling.” They seem to muddle along just fine.
    You want to see crumbling. Let’s take a little visit to Detroit, Michigan or Buffalo, New York to see some American cities that are literally falling apart. I challenge you to find me any similarly decrepit and ghettoized city in a European country. I am not aware of any.
    And leave out the insults directed at me and other posters, BTW. They’re completely useless to the discussion and just undermine the points you’re attempting to make, though judging by how much you use them, insulting others must make you feel good about yourself. This behavior has already gotten you banned multiple times from this blog, and I would have thought that if you’re as smart as you claim to be, you would’ve learned your lesson by now and stopped calling other people names simply because they disagree with you. Also, if you viewpoint is so self-evidently correct, your arguments should easily stand on their own without needing a gratuitous “f***tard” or “moron” at the end of every post. This is exactly the kind of childish behavior from people of your political stripe that has caused the American national political dialog to take such an unnecessarily nasty turn lately.
    And on that note, sorry for calling you a weirdo, Vlad, though I do worry about the state of your mental health sometimes.
    Good day to all of you.

  187. turkle October 19, 2010 at 5:34 pm #

    That’s just how TzaTza and his (her?) last six banned accounts roll around here. Those kinds of unspecific, childish insults roll off your back like water if you’ve spent any time posting to internet message boards. He might as well toss in a few “yer momma” jokes, for all the good it will do.
    Cyberspace is chock full of angry people who just want to make themselves feel good by denigrating others for being different than them or having a differing opinion. The macho posing is also pretty indicative of an unhealthy ego. A mentally healthy person wouldn’t take this ridiculous stance.
    I’m just trying to help by calling for a stop to it, and I have been somewhat guilty of this in the past, too. I apologize for any silly name calling I may have participated in on this board in the past. I have realized that the insults really are completely pointless, and I don’t feel insulted at all by it anymore. I just feel a bit of pity for little old TzaTza, who actually has some reasonable points to make, if you can pick them out of all the bile and spleen.

  188. lbendet October 19, 2010 at 5:46 pm #

    Couldn’t agree with you more, Turkle

  189. Bustin J October 19, 2010 at 5:52 pm #

    Trip quipped, ”Permaculture is probably the first and only actual paradigm shift away from the agrarian way. It’s horticulture. Completely different on every account.”
    One of the largest modern global industries supplying the vast majority of human beings worldwide by changing organisms from the inside out is an entirely different ball game than Permaculture, or the “Agrarian Way”.
    In other words, Permaculture and the “Agraian Way” are relatively close together, Modern Ag being so radically different than both, that to say that Permaculture is the REAL paradigm shift seems rather odd.
    Permaculture is a dirt-under-the-fingernails cousin of th Agrarian way, all the way, all day, and all night. It can trace its origins through English Gardening, as I mentioned, and from there it is a short hop to the Shire and an Oat-munching Stallion named the “Agrarian Way”. Permaculture hangs with the Amish compared to Modern Ag. Modern Ag shows up at the party by landing its massive spaceship on the roof. Permaculture, like those Agrarians, have a 1-to-12-point ethical sermon. Modern Ag has the voluminous scholarship of trillions of dollars of scientific research. When Modern Ag wants to visit Permaculture or the Agrarian Way, they come over and knock on the door. When Permaculture or the Agrarian Way wants to visit Modern Ag, they wait in the lobby before taking an elevator to the 21st century. (Along the way they are secretly gassed by scented antiseptic in the elevator).
    The way I see it, Permaculture and Agrarianism basically stop at Horticulture. Modern Ag goes much further. It actually FEEDS PEOPLE.
    Eh, so what are you going to do about? Wave the 12 principles of Permaculture in people’s faces?
    There is an ethical argument against your position in that ONE BILLION PEOPLE are going hungry right now- today.
    Higher population made possible by Modern Ag results in needing more Modern Ag to fulfill the ethical principle of keeping people from starving to death. It may be that we are in a vicious feedback loop.
    Its as if Modern Ag is following a single ethical precept:
    1. Feed hungry people.
    I don’t know, what kind of I-Ching Kung-fu is that where 1 ethical principle blows away 12 others?
    Like it or not, getting in between people and food on principle is an exercise in futility AT BEST.
    The world and its people are LOCKED IN to a rollercoaster ride and and there is no stopping and no getting off. So enjoy your horticulture, God knows that it is a relatively benign activity. But I know of nothing coming, not Peak oil, not the economy and certainly not politics that is going to stop the Modern Ag train. Buy stock, my good man, buy stock.
    I just can’t stand the impression I get from people who think Permaculture is going to be a factor. Its not even going to be a blip.

  190. asia October 19, 2010 at 5:59 pm #

    ‘ The Kennedys always raved about their “Commitment to Public Service” but wasn’t it really just an incomparable lust for power?
    [if folks havent noticed folks are basically programmed to be..uh,...selfish]
    yeah…remember the peace corps?
    bomb vietnam and send the young out in the name of ‘internationalism’..peace..baa..peace corps bunkum
    that monster said
    ‘support any friend, fight any foe’
    or whatever as he jsutifievietnam etc

  191. tzatza October 19, 2010 at 6:00 pm #

    “The heroic individual “producer” is a right-wing myth that has no basis in fact.”
    Who said anything about “heroic individual producers” moron. I said there are producers and non-producers. (You, by the way, falling into the latter category.
    While they had help from countless people some of the recognized producers of the world would include, Thomas Edison, Henry Ford, Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, the Packards, Mr. Benz and Mr. Daimler, Hewlett and Packard (different Packard), Hess, Vanderbilt, Rockerfeller, Carnegie, shit the list goes on and on and on.You are a moron, tukey-lurkey. Please shut the fuck up. (I said please)

  192. asia October 19, 2010 at 6:02 pm #

    ‘ I challenge you to find me any similarly decrepit and ghettoized city in a European country. I am not aware of any’
    uhh…..albania? [that muslim mess]
    yugoslavia..esp after CFR members albright and clinton bombed it.
    venice italy
    havent been to UK but friends there say its been in a deep depression for years so its turning into a ‘pontiac michigan with lotsa mosques’
    is only a matter of time !

  193. tzatza October 19, 2010 at 6:04 pm #

    “Those are the kind of activities that constitute a lively and healthy political dialog.”
    Setting cars and neighborhoods ablaze in France and illegally shutting off oil supplies is “dialog”. Duuhhhh..OK if you say so, moron.

  194. asia October 19, 2010 at 6:04 pm #

    turk the jurk:
    ‘Oh, and I didn’t know that the European countries are “crumbling.”
    clearly you dint look at or comprehend my youtube links of last week or the week before!!!
    he who laughs last laughs best

  195. asia October 19, 2010 at 6:08 pm #

    how many trees [and what type] would i have to plan to have 0 carbon footprint?
    im vegetarian, local ist , city living, no car, no pets………………………

  196. tzatza October 19, 2010 at 6:11 pm #

    “Turkle must be more correct than Tzatza.”
    Not really tzatza just tires of turks spewing about the wonderfulness of the socialist agenda. Want something you can’t afford? Why just take it. No need to work and earn…just take. You know, like Obama is attempting to do. It never works but you can bully people about for a while and it hasn’t been tried on Obamas level since FDR, so what the fuck…its worth a shot.

  197. turkle October 19, 2010 at 6:15 pm #

    Europe is a big place with a wide range of different countries.
    Find me a similarly decrepit and dysfunctional city as any US rust belt metropolis in, say, Germany, which TzaTza claims is “crumbling.”

  198. asia October 19, 2010 at 6:16 pm #

    asa asa/ notyrmommy etc…6x..id say 2 or 3x that!
    Cyberspace is chock full of angry people …
    maybe yr one of them?
    and if ya wanna know about europe read oct11 Newsweek..and read between the lines..
    theres a 2 page spread on the lamaphobia thats just ‘ragin thru europe’ [gasp, horrors]..the article starts with info on a movie thats the most popular now over there thats based in the real life 1996 beheading of 6 monks in [algeria?] but the point of the article is NOT that islam is bad but that WE, citizens, christians, law abidiers and or xenopobbbuists are bad. however if you consider the facts offered in the first paragraph of the assinine article the christians unhappiness with their muslim neighbors is all to well deserved, hence negating the point of the article.
    again see my you tube links posted here in the last month THEN decide where europe is and is going!

  199. tzatza October 19, 2010 at 6:20 pm #

    turky-lurky sez:
    “The problem is that in the current system the people at the top of these social structures siphon off most of the gains, leaving the bottom with table scraps.”
    Hey, jerk weed, so the guy sweeping the floor at Disney World, is just as productive as Uncle Walt? And Walt should not be better compensated (while alive) than the Snow White impersonatress, greeting the kiddies at the Magic Kingdom entrance? You really are a cartoon Marxist aren’t you? What a fucking cliche.

  200. Bustin J October 19, 2010 at 6:23 pm #

    Trip gave lip: “Gardening and farming ARE unfortunately about saving ourselves in the face of the collapse, of cities, of infrastructure, of money, of other people.”
    Look, I’m not a subscriber to the collapse theory. Take a look around, man. Nothing is collapsing. Looking at the figures, the reality is America is a food-exporting nation with a buttload of energy. Oil isn’t going to make any difference on the price of fertilizer. And even if everything ‘collapses’ the US. has the command and control to feed its people- easily. With a socialist state almost inevitable at this point it is virtually assured, in my mind, that people will not have to starve in the US. We will have the energy and the organization to get food to people.
    It is the marginal populations, the current 1 Billion-plus folks who don’t get enough to eat every single day that are in real danger.
    As far as producing for personal consumption, I have only this to say: self-employment is a bitch. We live in a distributed economy of labor and productivity. If you want to knit your own shirts, that is your choice. But farming is degrees harder.
    If people did REAL cost accounting (and who does that with their hobbies?) they’d find that the time and energy they spend on those commodities they’re producing is exorbitantly high. In the case of food, you really have to take into account a Total Production to Consumption ratio. Add it all up in time, sweat, and actual dollars. Add up all those pounds and calories. Now compare it actual consumption… do you come anywhere close? No, you don’t, the vast majority don’t, and that just goes to further proof that Permaculture, gardening, or even hyper-gardening is not in Ag’s ball game at all. It doesn’t even make the bench to carry water.
    Aesthetically, the result of most people’s attempts at PermaHortiGardening is a sorry patch of weeds after a few years, maybe a few boxes of marginal veggies. Hardly a Garden of Eden or Cornucopia.
    I think Permaculture is cool. I think it can be performed at a high quality. It is like Bonsai. Something to be appreciated in and of itself.
    It is something the suburban parcel-holder can occupy their free time with in the sun. But I think it is also a simulacrum of a more primal need to be in contact with nature. And in terms of that, Permaculture remains a pantomime of a Post-PreAgrarian understanding of man in the world.
    What was lost is authentic existence within nature as a part of it. Now instead of wild animals we have domestic pets and zoos. We have domesticized landscaping. Instead of free reign we have private property. I think the need fulfilled by Permaculture is the same need fulfilled by Horticulure, landscaping, even walking the dog or picking flowers: A Preindustrial comfort in just being an animal among familiar symbology- the parts of the world in which our senses evolved to relate to.
    That doesn’t stop the Juggernaut reality of our population increasing and the industries that serving its needs. These things exist side by side, and will exist into the near and farther future.

  201. turkle October 19, 2010 at 6:26 pm #

    “maybe yr one of them?”
    Says the guy who is constantly posting about how the evil Muslims are out to get him.

  202. Bustin J October 19, 2010 at 6:36 pm #

    Helen’s erupted, “You seem to think that genetic engineering, fossil fuels, plastics and all the other acoutrements of high-tech intensive gardening/farming will always be with us. You even think we will live under climate-controlled domes!”
    That is as true a collection of statements as I have ever heard. Thank you for following along closely.
    Its not so hard to imagine us living under climate-controlled domes. It is not so different than the current reality in many places. All the populated places in the world with uncomfortable climates are absolutely hell-bent on creating air-conditioned living and working spaces.
    In the future, on current trajectories, I see the condition “uncomfortable climate” spreading across most of the populated world (in that the climate change will heat up the longitudinal areas where humans like to live).
    I see climate change chaos as well as adaptation. Its not going to be a surprising sequence of events. It will be based on simple, pre-proven concepts, like electronic climate control and urbanization.
    I’m describing what will likely happen, not what I think should happen. I’m describing what will happen based on conventional perspectives. I would love it if everyone got out of our cars, but its not going to happen.
    “When the fossil fuels are too expensive to product anymore, none of that stuff is going to be readily available.”
    That is 100 years or more. There will always be devices like artificial bottlenecking and rationing to get us through the worst patches without bringing the system down.
    “But Permaculture will … will feed the people who do the work when industrial agriculture no longer exists. The days of 1% of the population doing the work that feeds the other 99% will be over and everybody will have to get their hands dirty of they want to eat.”
    No, that will never happen. Think about it. Agriculture will always have customers. Its like Google saying, “Well, good luck everybody, we aren’t going to build any more server farms. Program your own websites.” Markets with this kind of capitalization only disappear when something equally massive comes along to take its place fulfilling its function. And as you mentioned, Permaculture will never produce surpluses and therefore never take its place.

  203. Bustin J October 19, 2010 at 6:50 pm #

    Asia says, uh: “how many trees [and what type] would i have to plan to have 0 carbon footprint?
    im vegetarian, local ist , city living, no car, no pets………………………”
    Simple question, simple answer: on average, 478 trees planted per year (low estimate 156, high 800). And then they would have to live for about 40 years. Less, if you are frugal in your consumption, more if your consumption is at more conventional levels.
    The question is how do we get the government to legislate this change, because the lumpenprole ain’t gonna do it (no time, resources, land or experience to do so effectively)- and no immediate capital benefit.
    Problems are that carbon offset vegetation is frequently planted in unstable countries.

  204. turkle October 19, 2010 at 6:56 pm #

    I seem to have really hit a nerve here.
    So a guy who raves on about the “socialist agenda” and makes FDR out to be some kind of bully and villain says my views are a cliche. That’s pretty funny stuff. I could have plucked anyone at random out of a Tea Party rally and gotten the same tired old John Bircher rhetoric.
    Marxism argues as a core belief that the means of production should belong to the people. Traditional communist dictatorships controlled the production in their societies, from bread to tractors. I am not arguing that at all nor would I. I also don’t believe in a dictatorship of the proletariat. I am a firm believer that democracy is the best system of government available to us. So I am not a Marxist, not even close.
    You’ll see above where I state that large segments of the economy (most of it) are best left to the private sector. The production of goods and basic services is such an area. The government provides standards and laws to govern these areas, but you wouldn’t want them overly involved in, say, designing and producing cars.
    I am making arguments based on what has actually happened in history. Governments are among the most powerful forces shaping society and history. It is simply a fact. You can rail against “socialism” all you want but the fact remains that democratic governments are there to provide for the needs and wants of their constituents. What we actually have is a hybrid system of capitalism and socialism. We need both for society to function properly. It is a symbiosis. You mention Henry Ford. Along with Henry Ford’s autos, the government designed and paid for the interstate highway system, which is the envy of the world. The private sector would never have been able to provide the organization or funds to do this. It takes two to tango.
    Social programs are based on basic principles of compassion, that people should at least have enough to survive in their society. This means redistributing some income from others so that these people get what they need simply in order to survive day-to-day (unemployment insurance, food stamps, health care, etc.). It doesn’t mean that I think Walt Disney should make the same as his janitor. Again, you’re arguing pure straw man, which is typical of you. But the reason that the janitor makes a decent living wage in the first place and isn’t being paid pennies is because the government has stepped in time and time again, to establish minimum pay, labor laws, etc.
    I’m not sure what kind of society you envision where social programs are rolled back to the pre-New Deal era and the government does not attempt to address some of the inherent imbalances that arise out of a capitalist system. Do you really want to live in such a society? You may claim that you want this, but I don’t think you’d be all that pleased with the results.
    America already has an enormous population of destitute people, in prisons, on the streets, etc. Apparently you’d like to see more of this by rolling back the social safety net that does exist.
    Or maybe these lazy people should start “producing.” Well, what should they produce and where should they work? How are they going to get a job with even highly skilled laborers going 6 months or more without a job even with a dedicated job search for the whole time period? Unemployment is at 10% and higher in certain job sectors (17% in construction).
    I feel that your views are too simplistic. You want to bend the world to fit some kind of Social Darwinism that exists only in your own mind, because as a model for society it fails miserably.

  205. tatercakes October 19, 2010 at 6:58 pm #

    Jim, I don’t buy the idea that loss of credit will cause the end of civilization. All students of economics know that profit is the holy grail in a capitalist economy. Those enterprises that make good profit don’t need any of that damn credit. Removing the influences of credit will be a great cleanser. How is all that credit working out, it’s really helping, isn’t it?
    Con-men and grifters need credit, the productive and successful don’t.

  206. tzatza October 19, 2010 at 6:59 pm #

    “The question is how do we get the government to legislate this change…”
    We don’t because it is unnecessary. The climate changes. Always has. It did long before man bothered to show up.
    It will continue to change, regardless of what me may try and engineer. Relax, enjoy. Have a beer if you find the climate too hot or a coffee if you find it too cool.

  207. mika. October 19, 2010 at 7:06 pm #

    Want something you can’t afford? Why just take it. No need to work and earn…just take.
    ==
    Tiz more complicated than that, T. The big boiz, they don’t work. You don’t know this, ’cause youz da little peoplez. The big boiz, take and take and take and take. The whole system is arranged for them to take and take and take. And did I mention, they don’t work. Their lawyers work. Their politicians work. Their judges work. Their corporate managers work. Their MSM propaganda priests work. But the big boiz, they don’t work. They collect rent. And plan how to collect more rent.
    Now, I’m no pinko commie, but neither am I stupid or ignorant. So, I want my money back. All of it. And I want the gov mafia that works for the big boiz, I want their legs broken. And da big boiz, I want them identified, starved and tortured and hunted down like animals. And when captured, I want them worked to an inch of their death, and then I want them and their families and their relations, burnt alive in the same nazi death camps they financed for a final solution for my family and kinsmen.
    I hope that clarifies the issue for you, T.

  208. tzatza October 19, 2010 at 7:06 pm #

    “You can rail against “socialism” all you want but the fact remains that democratic governments are there to provide for the needs and wants of their constituents.”
    Needs and wants? You are pretending to be this stupid. I want a Ferrari. Gimme, Obama, I WANT it. Get a clue, moron.
    Responsible government should provide for the truly need and as such only reluctantly and only as long as necessary. As for providing “wants” you have got to be shitting me.

  209. mika. October 19, 2010 at 7:10 pm #

    Marxism argues as a core belief that the means of production should belong to the people.
    ==
    No, it doesn’t. Marxism argues as a core belief that the means of production should belong to the State. There’s a big fscking difference. Unfortunately, that subtlety often escapes the morons that push marxist propaganda.

  210. tzatza October 19, 2010 at 7:13 pm #

    “Tiz more complicated than that, T. The big boiz, they don’t work. You don’t know this, ’cause youz da little peoplez.”
    OF course you are a big boiz, so you know all about it. (Riiiigght.)
    I got news for you clownie, I know a lot of people who make a shit load of money. They work like fucking dogs. Their kids hardly know them and they often end up spending oodles of dollars in their later years trying to undo the damage to their health that their workaholic habits inflicted on them. I’m not saying their work habits should be emulated or admired I’m just saying they work and I would venture they work MUCH harder than you.

  211. mika. October 19, 2010 at 7:17 pm #

    They work like fucking dogs.
    ==
    That’s what they are. But they’re not the people I’m talking about.

  212. tzatza October 19, 2010 at 7:23 pm #

    “But the reason that the janitor makes a decent living wage in the first place and isn’t being paid pennies is because the government has stepped in time and time again, to establish minimum pay, labor laws, etc.”
    Not is isn’t you moron. Minimum pay has been shown time and again to retard, job progress. Every time it is raised it crowds out the very people it is “designed” to help.
    This from a WSJ article last year:
    “The September teen unemployment rate hit 25.9%, the highest rate since World War II and up from 23.8% in July. Some 330,000 teen jobs have vanished in two months. Hardest hit of all: black male teens, whose unemployment rate shot up to a catastrophic 50.4%. It was merely a terrible 39.2% in July.
    The biggest explanation is of course the bad economy. But it’s precisely when the economy is down and businesses are slashing costs that raising the minimum wage is so destructive to job creation. Congress began raising the minimum wage from $5.15 an hour in July 2007, and there are now 691,000 fewer teens working.
    As the minimum wage has risen, the gap between the overall unemployment rate and the teen rate has widened, as it did again last month. (See nearby chart.) The current Congress has spent billions of dollars—including $1.5 billion in the stimulus bill—on summer youth employment programs and job training. Yet the jobless numbers suggest that the minimum wage destroyed far more jobs than the government programs helped to create.
    Congress and the Obama Administration simply ignore the economic consensus that has long linked higher minimum wages with higher unemployment. Two years ago Mr. Neumark and William Wascher, a Federal Reserve economist, reviewed more than 100 academic studies on the impact of the minimum wage. They found “overwhelming” evidence that the least skilled and the young suffer a loss of employment when the minimum wage is increased. Whatever happened to President Obama’s pledge to follow the science? Democrats prefer to cite a few outlier studies known to be methodologically flawed.”
    Shut up Turk. You are a M-O-R-O-N. You spew shit, and call it sugar. You “facts” are laughable. You don’t want to go down the FDR as savior road or I assure you I will hand you your head. Shut up now before you hole gets deeper.

  213. Puzzler October 19, 2010 at 7:24 pm #

    I’ve enjoyed this blog more since I quit reading Asoka’s posts. His endless cheerleading and promotion of government BS statistics as facts made him join my Scroll Past list.
    However I recently (accidently) landed in the middle of his recent nonsense:
    “…the murder of animals.”
    This required a response.
    A human cannot murder an animal (nor can an animal murder a human).
    The word murder means a human killing a human.
    You can’t just change the meaning of words to support your case.
    Enough, I’ve got to go buy some more meat.

  214. asoka October 19, 2010 at 7:40 pm #

    Puzzler, you do not consider it murder because you do not believe animals have equal moral status to humans.
    To murder is to kill intentionally and with premeditation, which is exactly what is done by humans against (mostly) defenseless domesticated animals.
    I am not attacking anyone, much less friend Tripp. I am simply stating that I am personally offended by the lack of respect for an animal’s RIGHT TO LIFE.
    I am a RIGHT TO LIFER when it comes to animal rights. Until I manage to get legal standing for animals, you can all continue to murder them with legal impunity. That will all change once the courts rule that animals have a RIGHT TO LIFE.
    And, to Tripp, and E. and others: please stop with the amateur psychoanalyzing and diagnosing schizophrenia. It is really unbecoming.

  215. tzatza October 19, 2010 at 7:50 pm #

    “Puzzler, you do not consider it murder because you do not believe animals have equal moral status to humans.”
    That is because they DON’T.
    “That will all change once the courts rule that animals have a RIGHT TO LIFE.”
    Sweet Jesus, people (at the early fetal stage) don’t even have a right to life. Now I’m supposed to get excited about the rights of hamburgers? Me no think so.

  216. turkle October 19, 2010 at 7:59 pm #

    Correlation is not causation.

  217. turkle October 19, 2010 at 8:00 pm #

    I meant basic needs and wants like having enough food, having a roof over your head, and getting medical care. Turkle never said TzaTza is entitled to a Ferrari. There you go again with your straw men.

  218. Puzzler October 19, 2010 at 8:04 pm #

    It’s not just my opinion that killing animals isn’t murder — it is the definition of the word murder.
    Just like you can’t take the word “coffee” and use it for a drink made from chocolate.
    Why do you suppose one can never perform an autopsy on an animal?
    It’s because the word “autopsy” means cutting open a dead human to determine cause of death.
    P.S.: Do you know the word to use when that process is performed on a dead animal? WITHOUT LOOKING IT UP?

  219. turkle October 19, 2010 at 8:04 pm #

    “You don’t want to go down the FDR as savior road or I assure you I will hand you your head.”
    That is just another inane threat, which you are full of today (everyday?).
    And, yes, I would like to hear your argument about FDR, minus the unnecessary and childish name calling. Unlike you, I do not become incensed and vindictive when I hear opinions that are different from mine. Hit me.

  220. turkle October 19, 2010 at 8:07 pm #

    Yes, you’re right. I think I even knew that…but isn’t the idea that the state is composed of the people (proletariat)? I don’t even pretend to understand most of Marxist theory.

  221. turkle October 19, 2010 at 8:10 pm #

    By the same token, there are many people who work even harder than your rich friends, at two or more low-paying jobs, sometimes doing demanding physical labor. Likewise, there are plenty of people that don’t work all that hard and make plenty of money. I fail to see the point you’re trying to make. Working hard is not necessarily going to make you rich, and you can easily get rich without working that hard (e.g. if you had invested in Apple or Microsoft stock a few years back).

  222. turkle October 19, 2010 at 8:11 pm #

    Strike “easily” from my above statement.
    Damn, I wish this thing had an edit button.

  223. turkle October 19, 2010 at 8:14 pm #

    Well, rereading your post, you do make an interesting point about the minimum wage and teens.
    Of course, you picked one sentence out of about four paragraphs I wrote and riffed on it. Oh, well.

  224. turkle October 19, 2010 at 8:27 pm #

    Big government is necessary, because given the chance people will exploit the fuck out of each other. They will lie, cheat, and steal or worse. They will turn other people into their slaves. They will form corporations where the workers make pennies (sweatshops) and they take all the profits.
    So is government a bully? Sure it is. It is THE big bully that keeps everyone in line. It monopolizes and uses violence so that people aren’t constantly threatened with violence and exploitation from each other. A weak central government usually means that the society is in the process of disintegration and lawlessness or has already gotten there. (Somalia anyone?)
    I want one example of a country with a weak central government that has actually been successful in recent years. You can’t name one because those countries don’t survive or they are constantly on the edge of anarchy and failure.
    Every rich country that we consider successful in the world has a strong, centralized government that takes a significant chunk of its people’s wages in tax income. I’m so fucking sorry, but that’s just how things work. Now go back to your Tea Party and talk about how we should all be cowering in fear about what’s going to happen in November (I still haven’t figured out exactly what).

  225. tzatza October 19, 2010 at 8:34 pm #

    “Of course, you picked one sentence out of about four paragraphs I wrote and riffed on it. Oh, well.”
    No shit. One sentence of yours can produce volumes of truths to your misconceptions.

  226. turkle October 19, 2010 at 8:34 pm #

    It’s so funny to hear the Tea Baggers talk about how they hate socialism.
    But will they give up their SS benefits? Nope. Many will even take them early and draw more than they put in.
    Will they take government Medicare when they reach the right age? Of course they will.
    Are they all gung-ho about the bloated, overly expensive US military? Yup, apparently so.
    Are a lot of them from states that receive more federal dollars than they generate? Why yes.
    What people mean when they say we should cut “Big Government” is the parts of government that they don’t plan on using or consider important.

  227. trippticket October 19, 2010 at 8:34 pm #

    “”Gardening and farming ARE unfortunately about saving ourselves in the face of the collapse, of cities, of infrastructure, of money, of other people.””
    Before we get to the copious Kool-Aid, let me point out that I didn’t actually say this.
    Seems like a fair place to start with something of this nature.

  228. turkle October 19, 2010 at 8:42 pm #

    You might be right about a few things or have some bits of knowledge to share. I accept that. Part of why I come here is to put my positions out there and see if they stand up. Some do. Some don’t. I welcome the discourse and oftentimes my views will change over time.
    Whereas picking an argument and never deviating from it or acknowledging that you might be wrong about some things, as you are wont to do, is the behavior of deluded extremists and zealots. You’d fit right in with the Taliban. I hear they are conservative, have everything figured out, and never change their views on anything either.

  229. turkle October 19, 2010 at 8:44 pm #

    What is my big “misconception” oh brilliant one with all the answers? You seem to be beating around the bush on this one. Come right out and say it. Am I just another deluded Commie Liberal following the socialist agenda?

  230. ccm989 October 19, 2010 at 8:47 pm #

    Having read the various newstories about fraudulent foreclosures, I am indeed concerned that our fragile economic recovery is about to receive yet another blow. The report that Bank of America is now resuming foreclosures after a weekend hiatus is proof that the banks are a bunch of greedy hucksters (I know no one will argue with that) but between the CEOs and Wall Street, they have set up a situation where soon no one will be able to afford their products or services. I suspect we may be in danger of the very rich becoming the masters of all, the middle class completely disappearing and the rest of us becoming landless serfs. And that scares me plenty. How do we get the very rich to stop outsourcing jobs and to stop hiding funds in offshore accounts, trust funds and other tax evading treachery. Hang their attorneys? Shoot their accountants? Appealing to their better nature seems unlikely as greed apparently blinds the rich to everything else.
    So I will pay off my mortgage early, continue to harvest and eat home-grown veggies and eggs, stress the importance of education to my children and remind everyone that no man is an island. If we are to survive, then we need each other. Some to farm, some to build, some to teach, some to heal, etc. Being a gun-totting survivalist in a grim post-apocaplytic scenario does not appeal to me. And I will vote in these upcoming mid-term elections for those I think will keep this thing called Democracy together even if its does increase the deficit or cause the rich to pay higher taxes.

  231. CaptSpaulding October 19, 2010 at 8:54 pm #

    You have misunderstood the usefulness of the pissant. He’s safe as long as he’s on the internet. However if the long emergency really does manifest itself, he will finally become useful as mulch. The way he runs his mouth, someone is bound to see his true potential.

  232. turkle October 19, 2010 at 8:55 pm #

    You should look up the Citigroup plutonomy memo mentioned in Roger Moore’s “Capitalism: A Love Story”. What you describe has pretty much already occurred.

  233. turkle October 19, 2010 at 9:02 pm #

    Soylent TzaTza?

  234. tzatza October 19, 2010 at 9:08 pm #

    “Big government is necessary, because given the chance people will exploit the fuck out of each other. ”
    “Big government” is merely a collection of individuals. If individuals “exploit the fuck out of each other” a collection of them will only multiply the effect. When an individual “exploits the fuck” out of another, only one ends up being exploited. And as a matter of recourse the exploited can choose not to re-engage with the exploiter. When an entire government acts in a similar fashion, ALL of the governed are exploited and until a law is changed the exploited have nowhere else to go.
    “Every rich country that we consider successful in the world has a strong, centralized government that takes a significant chunk of its people’s wages in tax income.”
    Hitler, Mao, Stalin, Tito, Castro, etc. etc. all ran “strong centralized governments”. So much so, that they raped, pillaged and murdered millions of their own countrymen and were able to do so with little opposition as their power was centralized.
    When the United States was founded, the Federal Government had much less power than that of the individual states. Regarding his take on state rights, Thomas Jefferson wrote,
    “Resolved, that the several States composing the United States of America, are not united on the principle of unlimited submission to their general government; but that by compact under the style and title of a Constitution for the United States and of amendments thereto, they constituted a general government for special purposes, delegated to that government certain definite powers, reserving each State to itself, the residuary mass of right to their own self-government; and that whensoever the general government assumes undelegated powers, its acts are unauthoritative, void, and of no force: That to this compact each State acceded as a State, and is an integral party, its co-States forming, as to itself, the other party….each party has an equal right to judge for itself, as well of infractions as of the mode and measure of redress.”
    Over the years the erosion of states rights and the ceding of those rights to the federal government have brought us to where we are, a nation governed by federal busy-bodies, who are far removed from the needs and common purpose of those who reside away from the “centralized seat of government”. Their localized issues fall on the deaf ears of the centralized bureaucrats, who (in their minds) are far more adept at anticipating the needs of the yokels in the hinterlands. Even though many of these federal-istas have never bothered to visit those hinterlands.
    “That which governs least governs best.” is as true today as when it was first uttered.

  235. tzatza October 19, 2010 at 9:11 pm #

    “Ay, ay cap’n. Of course the nuggets of wisdom from your chum encrusted lips is profound insight.

  236. tzatza October 19, 2010 at 9:17 pm #

    “But will they give up their SS benefits? Nope. Many will even take them early and draw more than they put in.”
    Well I guess your loving Strong Centralized Government should not have promised what they promised. But promise they did. And now you want people to do what? Not take the funds that they were forced to put into a known ponzi scheme over their working lifetimes? You really are a simpleton. You really think you posited some sort of horrific action on the part of S.S. recipients? Sheesh you are an idiot.

  237. turkle October 19, 2010 at 9:23 pm #

    “That which governs least governs best.” is as true today as when it was first uttered.

    That is a transparently stupid statement, regardless of who coined it. The government that governed least would not govern at all. It wouldn’t exist.

  238. mika. October 19, 2010 at 9:28 pm #

    turkle,
    There’s no difference between all these gov mafia “isms”. Socialism, communism, fascism, it’s the same scam. Behind it all are the same people who control our reality matrix. The same people behind the people behind Michael Hudson or George Soros or Jamie Diamond, etc. The same people behind the blue and red one party system. The same people who constantly engage us, through their propaganda priests, in a false dialectic.

  239. tzatza October 19, 2010 at 9:33 pm #

    “That is a transparently stupid statement…”
    Not really. But a stupid person might conclude so. In other words one who likes to be “governed”.
    The statement allows that some form of governing, in a civil society, is necessary. But it is a recognition that “governing best” is not fucking too much with the populace. It rules out the “nanny state” of which you seem so fond. No surprise there. Babies tend to love their nannies.

  240. Bustin J October 19, 2010 at 9:35 pm #

    I realize I have been obtuse on addressing some points concerning Permaculture. Holmgren’s principles should definitely be applied to public land use in urban and suburban areas.
    I didn’t mean to suggest that Permaculture wasn’t needed. It is certainly needed at the Civic level in massive amounts. I think it could produce real standard of living increases and cost savings. The bottom line is that the removal of leaf-blower and lawn-mower civic planning is a good thing.
    I just don’t think it will bring anything to bear on the task of food production. Certainly some of its tenets should be applied to conventional Ag.

  241. tzatza October 19, 2010 at 9:36 pm #

    There’s no difference between all these gov mafia “isms”.
    So there was no difference under Stalin’s iron fist? I mean as opposed to life under FDR or Churchill? Uh huh.

  242. turkle October 19, 2010 at 9:38 pm #

    I don’t buy the argument that strong central government is inherently bad across the board. Nor did I state that the power of the state should not have limits.
    If you look around the world today, by the standards of the 1700’s, ALL governments are big and centralized, so you’d be hard pressed to make any kind of generalizations about whether that is a bad or good thing. Strong centralized states are the only ones that exist. It is also unfair to pick the worst of the worst (China under Mao for example) and generalize this to all centralized, strong governments. The world has changed since the Constitution was written. Population density is far higher. The world is a lot more complex and technological. Very few people live on farms as they once did, and everything is very interconnected. Hence, the role of government has changed. Wanting the government that governs “the least” to me is perverse. Do you really want to live in a society like that? You claim you do but I really don’t think you’d like what resulted.
    The idea that these dictators you mention were evil because of their big government structure is wrong. The problem is no rule of law or citizen’s rights. The dictator’s word is the law. There is no Constitution in these situations. The dictator is the state.
    A strong central government works fine within a constitutional democracy. That is why this model is quite typical for successful, developed countries around the world. What countries with weak central governments have been successful recently? Name one of decent size.
    And, yes, I think federal government is bloated when compared with the state governments, which are starved for money. I’d like to see more power return to the state governments.
    Good post btw. You see, it isn’t necessary to end a post by calling someone a fucktard.

  243. tzatza October 19, 2010 at 9:40 pm #

    “The government that governed least would not govern at all. It wouldn’t exist.”
    Sheesh is this a stupid statement. How is LESS governance NO governance. These posts must be someone posing as turkey-lurkey. Even he isn’t this stoopid.

  244. mika. October 19, 2010 at 9:44 pm #

    So there was no difference under Stalin’s iron fist?
    ==
    No, there’s no difference. They’re all variations on the same theme. And you can add monarchism, corporatism, religionism, imperialism, etc.
    It’s all the same idea. The idea being that of systematic centralization of power and wealth in the hands of the gov mafia.

  245. CaptSpaulding October 19, 2010 at 9:55 pm #

    It’s gratifying to see you respond to your name, pissant, Pavlovian response indeed. You’re easy to train. You seem to be stuck in that 4th grade playground still. How amusing that you would attempt to converse with adults with that grade school attitude. It’s still kinda fun to prod you once in a while. Make me laugh some more. Like I said pissant, mulch.

  246. trippticket October 19, 2010 at 10:08 pm #

    “I just don’t think it will bring anything to bear on the task of food production.”
    Then you’re not doing a full accounting on the real costs of agriculture. Mother Nature won’t make the same mistake I assure you.

  247. tzatza October 19, 2010 at 10:12 pm #

    “If you look around the world today, by the standards of the 1700’s, ALL governments are big and centralized…”
    True and all, excepting perhaps China find themselves in a horrific set of straights. And the reason? They have all over promised and under delivered and as a result their economic houses are floundering. France promised plenty of holidays, short working weeks and retirement at age 60. So now, by trying to raise retirement to age 62, the country is at a standstill. It doesn’t matter that the present system can’t work (once again because of MATH) the nanny state promised a bunch of goodies it never had a prayer of providing and damn it, the workers of the world are going to pitch a fit. Well go ahead, pitch a fit, Frenchy. But it ain’t going to change the reality of your situation.
    Ditto much of what we have been promised in this country. Through no fault of his own, when Obama entered the White House for his first day of work, we were already in deep doo as a result of entitilements. (SS, Medicare and Medicaid) On our present course by 2050 these entitlements will take the entirety of all federal revenues. And yet, as bad as things already were, with a faltering economy (forget whose fault, the economy was tanking) Obama proposes one of the biggest federal boondoggles in the history of boondoggles, national healthcare. Go fucking figure. More goodies form a country that can’t deliver on what has already been promised.
    “Wanting the government that governs “the least” to me is perverse. Do you really want to live in a society like that? You claim you do but I really don’t think you’d like what resulted.”
    And that is because you must like to be governed. You must like to have people, most of whom you will never meet or know, making up the rules as to how you should live your life. You are the perfect puppet for the puppetmasters pulling your cute little strings. But you are so blind that you don’t even know you have strings. They occasionally pat you on the head and promise you nice cakes and tea and you believe them. In fact you think it “perverse” to have it any other way. Wake the fuck up, laddie. That government which provides everything…is a government that can take everything. And in the twinking of an eye.

  248. mika. October 19, 2010 at 10:13 pm #

    Fossil fuels made us, and they will break us.
    ==
    What percentage of fossil fuels actually goes towards growing food? I would think it’s not even 5%, am I wrong?

  249. trippticket October 19, 2010 at 10:17 pm #

    “Permaculture was in no way involved in the Cuban food crisis. In no way. Unless you think forced labor and dictatorship is Permaculture.”
    Permaculture was DIRECTLY involved in Cuba’s transition. Google it. It’s in every damn link almost. Permaculture is also on the ground in Haiti, and Mexico, and Israel, and Jordan. And we’re not terribly concerned with your imagined limitations of what we can accomplish.

  250. tzatza October 19, 2010 at 10:17 pm #

    “You seem to be stuck in that 4th grade playground still. How amusing that you would attempt to converse with adults with that grade school attitude. It’s still kinda fun to prod you once in a while. Make me laugh some more.”
    Now let me see. You get pleasure prodding someone that is stuck in “that 4th grade playground still.” (Nice grammar, Shakespeare.)
    and you are supposed to be the adult in the room? ‘Kay, whatever you say, Chumley.

  251. mika. October 19, 2010 at 10:18 pm #

    Working hard is not necessarily going to make you rich, and you can easily get rich without working that hard (e.g. if you had invested in Apple or Microsoft stock a few years back).
    ==
    Or had the ability to backdate options. Which is basically what all the insiders do. And they do it with impunity.

  252. trippticket October 19, 2010 at 10:30 pm #

    “What percentage of fossil fuels actually goes towards growing food? I would think it’s not even 5%, am I wrong?”
    About 17%. And I would assume that most of the other 83% is tied up in the rest of first world commerce. Unlike some, I think peak oil and energy descent are only a problem for the first world, the electricity and car using world…minus a little population dieback in the third world, once Heifer and Oxfam move out.

  253. tzatza October 19, 2010 at 10:36 pm #

    Guess what genius? To invest in Apple or Microsoft you need money. Excepting those that inherit money, most must work hard for it. Furthermore, for every Apple and Microsoft there are a thousand (probably, more like a million) companies that will not be successful. So, in order to make money investing in A or M a “few years back” you not only had to have some extra (hard earned) money but you had to be able to do the hard, slogging homework that would lead you to the conclusion that these were good companies to invest in.
    Of course you, with 20/20 hindsight make it sound like anyone could invest and profit from these two stocks. (By the way, how much money did you make investing in them? Just as I thought.)
    As for backdating I believe the personage of Martha-fucking-Stewart served a little time for this very practice. So much for your theory of impunity.
    For fucks sake does anyone on this site excepting myself have a fucking clue as to how this world works (and doesn’t work)?

  254. mika. October 19, 2010 at 10:41 pm #

    tripp,
    You have a reference to that 17%? It seems very high. Does that include “food miles”?

  255. Kiwi Nick October 19, 2010 at 10:45 pm #

    Hi E.
    Great comment from last week about CS (computer programming).
    Perhaps I can make you weep some more: http://whrl.pl/RcrGZT (Telstra is Australia’s main ILEC).
    Or what about Virgin prepaid cellphones … go into recharge history and it only gives me the last one or two recharges. We then ring up to have the cellphone unlocked and are told “you haven’t spent $80. Please recharge another $65″.
    Or what about GroceryWatch/Fuelwatch? The task is simple: take the prices that are inside the supermarket computers, and display them on the web. Rudd No Can Do. Fuelwatch is even worse:
    * the software is already written, the servers are already humming, the data-links (fuel retailers) are already there, and a section of the public are already using it here. But Rudd couldn’t do it for the rest of Australia.
    * Various user-driven (volunteer) websites have sprouted up (example, about 8 others exist) giving fuel prices at many service stations. If they can do it why not Rudd?
    As another submitter to the recent ACMA inquiry said …
    I am a great fan of the intelligent use of technology. — Jonathan Borwein.
    I agree with him entirely. Most of his submission, and most of the other submissions, point to problems with poorly implemented technology (the rush to earn a dishonest buck comes a distant second).
    Getting back to Eleuthero’s point: most of the problems come back to IT (CS) students & graduates who can’t cut code, and/or IT managers with pointy hair that force systems into production months before they’re ready (or shoe-horning 3rd party solutions, sold by IT salesmen making a dishonest buck, into the mix).
    Eleuthero, a question: are you going to sign onto an open-source project? It would be good to get back to computer programming, the way it should be, no?
    Nick.

  256. mika. October 19, 2010 at 11:05 pm #

    For fucks sake does anyone on this site excepting myself have a fucking clue as to how this world works (and doesn’t work)?
    ==
    And you think we need you to parrot the standard idiotbox propaganda lines as to how to world works or doesn’t work? Get a fscking clue!

  257. trippticket October 19, 2010 at 11:07 pm #

    “The bottom line is that the removal of leaf-blower and lawn-mower civic planning is a good thing.
    I just don’t think it will bring anything to bear on the task of food production.”
    Do you understand the amount of land you’re talking about? And how fertile that land tends to be, simply because people tend to settle where the soil is fertile, and cities tend to grow from settlements?
    Removing “leaf-blower and lawn-mower civic planning” implies a replacement landuse. What did you have in mind? More soccer fields? We’re talking about 10s of 1000s of acres of the most fertile soil in the country. To think that acreage like that wouldn’t have an extremely significant impact on the food chain is short-sighted. Again, see Havana, Cuba. They produce something like 90% of the city’s food inside the city limits. Tell me that isn’t bringing something palpable to bear on the task of food production and I’ll tell you to peddle it elsewhere. And permaculture arrived to help guide that transition at the beginning. I talk to people fairly regularly who were part of that. I took a course from a guy who is in Mexico doing similar things right now. I keep tabs on chatter between permies on the ground in Haiti reconstructing the destroyed ecology there.
    The reason you don’t hear about it is because permaculture isn’t good for the economies that control the information. In fact it’s quite threatening. Every therm of energy we don’t use undermines the current power structure just a little bit more. Why would they help us?
    You can practice permaculture without a yard of land. If you walk or bike to a market and buy food grown in your area, where before you drove to the supermarket to buy Chilean asparagus in winter, that’s permaculture. If you salvage materials and share labor with friends, where before you pulled the solo mission sponsored by Lowe’s, that’s permaculture.
    The only limits to what can be accomplished with permaculture are in your head.

  258. messianicdruid October 19, 2010 at 11:42 pm #

    “Con-men and grifters need credit, the productive and successful don’t.”
    Well said. The borrower is the servant of the lender. Credit creates debt and thus oppression.
    http://www.martinarmstrong.org/files/Nice%20Try%20but%20No%20Cigar%2010-9-2010.pdf

  259. Kiwi Nick October 19, 2010 at 11:47 pm #

    Just ask the 2+ million people housed as a result of the rule of law in our nation’s prisons.
    You sure about that?
    Admittedly I speak of Australia and New Zealand: prisons are crowded, escapes occur, and judges (having some concern about crowding) sentence heinous criminals to months, not years, in prison – or they hand out fully suspended sentences.
    Every time the Government tries to fix it (Truth in Sentencing, abolishing suspended sentencing, increasing penalties, mandatory sentencing) the judges simply ignore it and continue with their old practices.
    One drunk driver who killed got fined $100. Plus a $20 victims’ fund levy. There was no mention of licence suspension.
    They don’t even touch shonky builders.
    I should mention land title (the subject of this blog entry) … the system is quite robust in Australia and New Zealand, apart from the rare case of someone falsely mortgaging someone else’s property. So the US will have to deal with that pile of horse shit on its own.
    Nick.

  260. messianicdruid October 19, 2010 at 11:56 pm #

    “I want one example of a country with a weak central government that has actually been successful in recent years.”
    Of course you have to limit it to “recent years”. You dare not consider a time when people were self-governing and independent.

  261. asia October 20, 2010 at 12:17 am #

    ‘Are a lot of ‘them’ from states that receive more federal dollars than they generate? Why yes.’
    ‘THEM’ > ‘the enemy’ you and harry belafonte may have much to agree on.
    Consider this, many in those greedy states get little or nothing from their state govt despite the state bein on the take.
    and…the government which governs the best is the government that indeed governs the best.

  262. asia October 20, 2010 at 12:19 am #

    is it that those on ‘the left’ promise much and when those not on the left want some of it they get demonized by the media?

  263. asia October 20, 2010 at 12:23 am #

    thanks..im flabbergasted,
    i figured maybe 1000 trees total…not 500 x 80=
    40,000
    and how tall? what variety? how many acres?

  264. asia October 20, 2010 at 12:25 am #

    sorry mika it dont fly…
    soros is the man behind the curtain, the puppet on stage is obama [or palin or bill or hillary].

  265. Kiwi Nick October 20, 2010 at 12:27 am #

    How is LESS governance NO governance.
    Hear hear.
    What I think we need to do is ask “what does less governance look like?” (or “minimalist government”, to use my term).
    I think it is government that lets the population go about its honest business without interference. Whatever the government does has to support the goal of “honest” business … in other words, putting together a framework that enables things to run smoothly.
    This means it has to ensure there’s enough money printed so the economy can work (and in a more modern economy, it has to ensure the banking system is trustworthy). It has to deter (eliminate?) dishonest behaviour. It has to make the various phone companies adopt technical standards so that we may call one-another. And of course, it has to ensure that land title systems are robust – hint, hint.
    A minimalist government has to put frameworks in place to let it all run smoothly.
    The next question is … after all the frameworks are in place, what extra stuff should a government engage in?
    Possibly they should build roads (otherwise you’ll get a shambles of toll-roads), and perhaps it should lay on some public transport (otherwise nobody would do it on entirely commercial terms)? What about subsidies or other action to prop up phone/internet service in rural places? How much or how little social security should we have?
    That’s where the real debate about Government should be, but unfortunately, we’ve got governments who don’t even get the minimalist stuff right, but engage in trade&commerce or other wasteful fluff.
    Nick

  266. asoka October 20, 2010 at 12:27 am #

    Asoka said: “Just ask the 2+ million people housed as a result of the rule of law in our nation’s prisons.”
    Kiwi Nick said: “You sure about that?”
    Kiwi, I think there has been some misunderstanding about what I mean by rule of law. I am not making any statement about justice. I am not saying anything about whether those two million should be in prison or not.
    I am making a statement that they ARE in prison because there is no societal breakdown of the kind CFN drools over, and secretly wishes for, and thinks is just around the corner. Societal breakdown is not even close to happening.
    As evidence, I submit the rule of law is intact. By that I mean the prisoners’ sentences are being enforced. The prisoners are not free to walk out of the prison because the rules don’t allow it and the guards and the whole “correctional” system is intact, no where near collapse, and those 2+ million prisoners will continue to serve their sentences.

  267. asia October 20, 2010 at 12:28 am #

    much of a food dollar goes to packaging and at this point almost 50% of USA food dollars are spent away from home.

  268. asia October 20, 2010 at 12:30 am #

    TURKLEBAGGER:
    ‘It’s so funny to hear the Tea Baggers talk about how they hate socialism’
    have you considered asking one of ‘them’ to define the term?
    can you?

  269. asoka October 20, 2010 at 12:30 am #

    CORRECTION:
    the whole “correctional” system is intact, nowhere near collapse, and those 2+ million prisoners will continue to serve their sentences.
    If any are released due to budgetary considerations, the releases will be orderly, systematic, and determined by established criteria which are based on potential threat to society… because the rule of law is intact.

  270. asoka October 20, 2010 at 12:35 am #

    Socialism is state control of the means of production. It doesn’t exist in the United States.
    The closest the USA comes to socialism is the Veterans Administration and the US mommy military that provides everything for its baby soldiers, including beds, bedtimes, and babysitters. And clothes, food, housing, transportation, haircuts, training, spending money, medical care, permission to go outside and play during recess (R & R), as long as the baby soldiers come back to mommy military at the time they are instructed to return.

  271. mika. October 20, 2010 at 12:37 am #

    sorry mika it dont fly…
    soros is the man behind the curtain, the puppet on stage is obama [or palin or bill or hillary].
    ==
    If you really think a high-profile jew clown nazi turncoat with a few billion dollars in a hedge fund is the man behind the curtain, you need to check your shoe size for a proper IQ fitting.

  272. turkle October 20, 2010 at 12:45 am #

    Most Americans use socialism to mean “Government programs and services that I don’t like.”

  273. turkle October 20, 2010 at 12:47 am #

    “You really think you posited some sort of horrific action on the part of S.S. recipients?”
    Does not compute.

  274. turkle October 20, 2010 at 1:03 am #

    Yeah, TzaTza, you know everything there is to know about how the world works. That must be why you can’t seem to keep your kunstler.com accounts for more than a few months without getting banned, because you’re just an epic genius.
    Whatever.

  275. turkle October 20, 2010 at 1:11 am #

    “not fucking too much with the populace”
    I had no idea you’ve thought so deeply about these complex issues of governance.

  276. turkle October 20, 2010 at 1:20 am #

    If all you anti-government types hadn’t noticed, between the tail end of Bush, and the first year of Obama, the Fed injected about a trillion dollars into the private sector economy to rescue it from its death throes. This included bailing out major financial firms and purchasing GM (basically).
    So if the private sector is so great and should be doing fine on its own with minimal governance (as you all seem to claim), why did the government feel the need to do this? Shits and giggles?
    Seriously, you want to talk about how the world works. Get a freaking clue already.

  277. asoka October 20, 2010 at 1:46 am #

    Turkle said: “the Fed injected about a trillion dollars into the private sector economy to rescue it from its death throes.”
    Isn’t that kind of a tacit admission that capitalism does not work on its own? Capitalism needs big government to survive.
    As you have already pointed out, the countries providing a superior quality of life for its citizens are democratic socialist countries that know how to tax and spend for the benefit of all.
    We need more taxation because the country is broke. I like the 1:10 ratio idea for a minimum to maximum salary ration, with 100% taxation on all income that exceeds 10 times the incomes of the lowest paid employee.
    We need more spending on infrastructure development because the unemployment rate is too high.
    More taxation. More big government spending. Obama is not delivering on either of those.

  278. asoka October 20, 2010 at 1:53 am #

    CORRECTION:
    I like the 1:10 ratio idea for a minimum to maximum salary ratio, with 100% taxation on all income that exceeds 10 times the incomes of the lowest paid employee.

  279. ctemple October 20, 2010 at 2:14 am #

    Last year Pat Quinn, Illinois governor released 1700 prisoners in secret, because of a money crunch. You could make the argument that this was orderly, because the Governor knew what was going on, but it looks terrible, and his opponent in the election has brought it up in his ads.
    My question is: what happens when the money crunch gets worse than it is?

  280. ctemple October 20, 2010 at 2:29 am #

    When you continually bail out broke private businesses, you never get rid of the incompetence or the corruption, all you do is subsidize it. And why should the big banks be bailed out, when the guy with the gas station who went broke isn’t? These banks aren’t any more important than anyone else, they just think they are.

  281. kulturcritic October 20, 2010 at 2:35 am #

    SOMETHING worth reading… Koch and friends want to make sure the future is theirs… until it is no one’s.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/10/19/koch-industries-republican-donors-palm-springs_n_769028.html?igoogle=1

  282. Shakazulu October 20, 2010 at 3:00 am #

    “Anyone who wants to join the tribe please drop me a note” Count me in. I can’t help you with the fertile females, but I can carry a club and sing on key for those long nights around the campfire.

  283. asoka October 20, 2010 at 3:27 am #

    ctemple said: “My question is: what happens when the money crunch gets worse than it is?”
    More prisoners will be released.
    77% of the brothers in prison are nonviolent offenders who shouldn’t be in medium and maximum security facilities to begin with. Releasing them would not cause any major problems in society.
    An analysis of recent United States Justice Department data showed that over the past 20 years, the nonviolent prisoner population has increased at a rate much faster than the violent prisoner population, and that 77% of the people entering prisons and jails were sentenced for nonviolent offenses.
    Since 1978, the number of violent prisoners entering America’s prisons doubled, the number of nonviolent prisoners tripled, and the number of persons imprisoned for drug offenses increased eight-fold.

  284. Eleuthero October 20, 2010 at 6:01 am #

    Good points about the “exploratory spirit”,
    LBendet. As usual, you put your finger
    right upon the difference between today’s
    student and those of yesteryear.
    As you so astutely pointed out, the students
    of yesteryear almost instinctively knew that
    a teacher is merely a CATALYST and a DATA
    PRUNER who can direct one to what is wheat
    and what is chaff.
    However, to discover how the “wheat” works,
    once it is revealed, one must do private,
    personal EXPERIMENTS. In my discipline,
    this means that just having one’s ass
    plastered to a seat during lectures is a
    light year from sufficient. To discover
    how operators, functions, and idioms work,
    one must write exploratory code. One must
    “tinker”. One *must*.
    The student of today is so narcissistic and
    passive that it is quite literally as if they
    expect the teacher to be an alchemist. If they
    are “lead”, the instructor must do ALL the transformatory work to turn them into “gold”.
    Of course, this death of the exploratory spirit
    goes hand-in-glove with the death of respect for
    an active intellect. After all, can’t we just
    look everything up in Wiki … thereby obviating
    all need for data, knowledge, and wisdom retention
    in our own brains?? I’ve got nothing against
    Wiki but the SYNTHESIS of knowledge is the taking
    of disparate facts and combining them in new ways.
    Wiki won’t help anyone do this.
    E.

  285. trippticket October 20, 2010 at 6:19 am #

    “thanks..im flabbergasted,
    i figured maybe 1000 trees total…not 500 x 80=
    40,000
    and how tall? what variety? how many acres?”
    Wrong questions. The right questions are “how do I cut this figure in half? And then in half again? How can I go from being a parasite to a blessing on the landscape?
    Jesus, we’re never going to get this.

  286. trippticket October 20, 2010 at 6:25 am #

    “77% of the brothers in prison are nonviolent offenders who shouldn’t be in medium and maximum security facilities to begin with.”
    And, like these guys, the other 23% wouldn’t be nearly the problem they are if they were eating an appropriate menu of mineral dense whole foods.
    Studies show recidivism rates decline sharply when prisoners are fed organically. All of our problems will take care of themselves when we stop living on a balanced diet of oil, coal, and natural gas.

  287. trippticket October 20, 2010 at 6:29 am #

    “As you have already pointed out, the countries providing a superior quality of life for its citizens are democratic socialist countries that know how to tax and spend for the benefit of all.”
    These also tend to be countries with economical mass transit systems and local markets selling wholesome local produce.
    These are most likely the more important points.

  288. Eleuthero October 20, 2010 at 6:38 am #

    Thanks for the link, MD, to the Armstrong
    article. Statistically, it is hard to argue
    with his idea of the ruthlessness and
    invasiveness of government. Government
    in 1950 soaked up 12% of total GDP to
    keep the cogs greased. Now, it is rapidly
    approaching 48% from 42% just five years
    ago due to TARP and Federal takeover of
    whole industries.
    The only bone I would pick with the Armstrong
    article is that some kind of “renaissance” is
    going to happen where the people combined with
    private enterprise somehow magically resist,
    revolt, and steal back autonomy. I don’t see
    it. Armstrong does not even posit a mechanism
    by which this will happen.
    If it does … you and I won’t live to see it.
    For now, as Armstrong says, government, esp.
    the Judiciary branch is jailing people for
    petty tax evasions and driving unregistered
    people on Federal property. Government
    rapaciousness IS out of control. However,
    I see no end in sight of the iron-fistedness
    of government.
    Indeed, the Attorney General of the USA vowed
    to fight all the marijuana legalization
    initiatives with rhetoric worthy of William
    Bennett. How can this be?? The will of the
    people is feckless now. The Judiciary will
    simply jail whom it wants to jail and for
    whatever violations they find in fine print.
    E.

  289. Eleuthero October 20, 2010 at 6:47 am #

    Offshoring is a perfect way to destroy the
    middle class because it was precisely the
    manufacturing jobs that involved SKILLED
    labor as opposed to the dopey labor in the
    “service” industries.
    It’s no coincidence that the USA is careening
    toward autocracy (the IRS is now more predatory
    than ever before, for example) because we either
    have “neoliberals” or “neoconservatives” both
    of whom seek to eliminate freedom. Neoliberals
    eliminate freedom by prohibiting all public
    rhetoric that’s controversial and the neocons
    eliminate it by creating perpetual wars which
    exploit the poor and uneducated by hoodwinking
    them into the armed forces.
    That’s your choice now: Politically correct
    neo-Marxism or a government run by the Defense
    Department. Both sides win if the middle class
    goes away because they’ve always VOTED and
    they’ve always been wealthy enough to avoid
    political strong-arming.
    E.

  290. Eleuthero October 20, 2010 at 7:03 am #

    I think you’re looking in the rear view
    mirror when you talk about the “success”
    of European style Socialism and, yes,
    I’ve been lately … twice.
    Paris now features more street violence and
    public incivility by an order of magnitude
    than I ever remembered. I could give about
    ten anecdotes but I don’t want to bore anyone.
    My friends whom I visited in Paris and
    Neuchatel, Switzerland are all alarmed at
    breakdowns in public decorum, defacing of
    property, and so on. It’s changed drastically.
    The dictates of Brussels which, through the
    establishment of the EU with its absurd 1600-page
    “Constitution”, has established a Socialist
    “Uber-State” with attendant and constant
    imbalances in credit markets, labor markets,
    and housing markets. The EU was basically
    the end of individual political and economic
    sovereignty of member states and you can
    expect the recent worker riots to persist
    for years and years.
    Socialism tends, like Social Security, to be
    a Ponzi scheme which works very well when
    birth rates and wealth are on the ascendancy
    and which implodes when there are too many
    retirees per worker and too much debt.
    FDR-type programs can’t be implemented in our
    culture now because there aren’t enough skilled
    laborers, too many retirees, lower birthrates
    (unless you’re Mexican), and insufficient
    industrial concerns to make the raw materials
    for the “pick and shovel” projects Obama has
    spoken so frequently of (which have been
    carried out at a snail’s pace).
    You cannot compare our population’s demographics,
    skills, or birthrates to 1935 and say that
    Socialism would be an unqualified success.
    This is not 1935 and we are a VASTLY different
    people.
    E.

  291. trippticket October 20, 2010 at 7:05 am #

    “In fact, authoritarian agriculture is more along the lines of the future I see us facing. It will be more like the FDA taking over Monsanto though.”
    Yes, yes, we get it, bigger, faster, more. More fascist marriage of state and corporation (Mussolini’s definition, not mine), more gigantism, more #2 field corn to rot our brains with. It’s a pretty picture you paint.
    Just keep in mind that it was the tiny proto-mammals running around under the feet of the dinosaurs that made it through the K-T boundary.

  292. trippticket October 20, 2010 at 7:17 am #

    “You cannot compare our population’s demographics,
    skills, or birthrates to 1935 and say that
    Socialism would be an unqualified success.
    This is not 1935 and we are a VASTLY different
    people.”
    Not to mention that this period was cast in a context of massively increasing energy availability. Not at all the same reality we have today. Doesn’t matter how many commenters here believe in fairy tales of soldiering on, the physics of contraction will be, and is already, very different than the physics of expansion.
    This is the realm of systems ecology, not political science, or military strategy, or public relations campaigns. Hmmm, I wonder what Bustin J’s background is.

  293. lbendet October 20, 2010 at 7:55 am #

    E.,
    Neoliberal is not left wing politically correct updated form of liberalism. Instead it describes free markets without regulation or barriers to entry:
    Wikipedia
    Neoliberalism is a market-driven[1] approach to economic and social policy based on neoclassical theories of economics that stresses the efficiency of private enterprise, liberalized trade and relatively open markets, and therefore seeks to maximize the role of the private business sector in determining the political and economic priorities of the state.

  294. Alexandra October 20, 2010 at 8:36 am #

    Good day to you all CFK’ers….
    Another apt piece by himself this week, but do the US masses really care any more? Are they finally on the verge of a collective switching off wid dah cruise-control, quitting the Prozac-n-porn-on-demand-sports and blonde module girlie teeth-n-smiles delivered parochial news yawn?
    Dare I say are they at the dawn of a mass ascension cognitive awakening? Nope – not from what I witnessed in behaviour in AZ a few weeks back – definitely not!
    Well in France the ‘slaves’ are no longer prepared to take it from the ‘masters’, but then they have a history for that, (but I fear they know not what they do)the thin veil fabric of western based normality derived via JIT policies means once you disrupt and rip the diesel/petero fuel supply equations, soon after the Supermache shelves remain empty…
    And this time around will the phrase “Let them eat cake!”….hit the empty kiddy tummy spots?
    And the current salivating words across the UK city streets is now all about QE2 (and no not that new one leaving Southampton full of retired pensioners) No, no my dears keep up! Tis the B-o-E/ECB deals about to spawn another financial markets and banking bonus disconnect – from the rest of main-stream society – just as with post 2008 phase 1 did. Greed is good after all, as the mantra of red-braces equipped Gekko informed!
    The rich have it rigged to keep getting richer,but what will be left to play with come 2020+ when the climate food disruptions become more severe, so that the upper-classes start Chilean miner like thinking that maybe now’s a good time to start eating the recently deceased…?
    But back to the present – they’d better start buying oil futures soon – there’s a glut building up from over supply, cause finally the swelling global poor slaves just can’t get credit enough to keep $80pb flowing,no really they can’t we need it at $20 or lower again to get growth going…
    And just think what this costs China and India in sheeple subsidies, with the Fed set to further devalue the dollar – ouch this hurts like hell as the months drag on! (Do we really have to keep bailing you guys currency wise internationally? Should make the meal post first nite G20 meet Korea interesting) *sniggers*
    Clues of the collapse come from repeat prescriptions that are now stacking up on the shelves of Walgreen’s as poorhouse sheeple (even if they’ve got some form of basic health insurance) cannot keep up with the inflationary costs of doing the simple basics like heat, eat and house themselves, and maybe keep driving a little bit to the crumbling part-time slave wage job prospect they’ve maybe luckily held on to so far….??
    And I wonder how long this two tier system can continue, you know the tiny % who keep on with the the NetJet, yacht and canapés party, while the masses slide down writhing just how much further they have to rot – before the penny/cent finally drops?
    How costly does gas, and that saturated fat tweaked Taco have to get, while degrading in quality along the way, that Mr & Mrs diabetes aided spine finally cracks, and the rebels finally storm the gates screaming “Enuff’s enuff”…
    “NO WE CANNOT TAKE ANY MORE!!”
    Me thinks wherever you are in the OECD’s now – apart from maybe Norway – the clock is tick-tocking ever more loudly…and many no linger can chow down the bull.
    And as we’re just days away from Guy Fawkes Firework night here in the UK, you could rightly say… “When this baby goes bang, tis gonna be a bigge!”
    (Be seeing you)

  295. tzatza October 20, 2010 at 8:44 am #

    “Turkle said: “the Fed injected about a trillion dollars into the private sector economy to rescue it from its death throes.”
    Isn’t that kind of a tacit admission that capitalism does not work on its own? Capitalism needs big government to survive.”
    No it didn’t work. It is a tacit admission that this administration remains clueless as to the workings of the private sector. Period.

  296. tzatza October 20, 2010 at 8:55 am #

    “I meant basic needs and wants like having enough food, having a roof over your head, and getting medical care. Turkle never said TzaTza is entitled to a Ferrari. There you go again with your straw men.”
    Hey moron. You used the term “wants.” Now above, you list needs. There is a fucking difference. Language matters. And by the way, there you go again with your, “There you go again with your straw men.” nonsense. Could you please try and get a few new cliches in your repertoire? You sound like a fucking sophomore standing outside her “Ruling From the Left” seminar (elective-no grade) trying to impress the really cool, rad professor. Get a fucking clue.

  297. tzatza October 20, 2010 at 9:02 am #

    “And, yes, I would like to hear your argument about FDR, minus the unnecessary and childish name calling. ”
    No way fuckweed. You do the homework. Try a little heavy lifting on your own. You spew shit that is backed by vapor. Go find out something about FDR. Discover for yourself that WWII got us out of the Great Depression, not FDR. (Who was so close to being a fucking dictator that a spooked Congress passed the 22nd amendment, limiting Presidential terms to two.)

  298. tzatza October 20, 2010 at 9:07 am #

    ” I don’t even pretend to understand most of Marxist theory.”
    This is an odd admission as you “pretend” to understand a whole host of other issues about which you remain totally clueless.

  299. tzatza October 20, 2010 at 9:19 am #

    “So if the private sector is so great and should be doing fine on its own with minimal governance (as you all seem to claim), why did the government feel the need to do this? Shits and giggles?”
    Why did the government feel the need to do this? Holy shit. You can’t be this stupid. Because (moron) that is what governments do. They meddle in the affairs of all those they can meddle in because they are so much wiser than those in the private sector. Once the government jumps into the private sector with its brilliant set of fixes, the private sector is no longer “private”.
    Think about it genius, the Obama government orchestrated a government controlled “bankruptcy” of GM. In effect they told investors (bond holders) “Beat it. The bonds you bought are worth zero. Now go home and shut up.” They injected tax payers money to prop up a failing company for one reason…UAW votes and support.
    In effect, if GM could not survive of its own accord, it should have been allowed to fail. That is a “free market.” What Obama has given us is anything but a free market. Now shut up because your stroll down M-O-R-O-N lane is getting borrrrrrring.

  300. tzatza October 20, 2010 at 9:22 am #

    Another snippet for Turkey-Lurkey regarding how well those lovely “centralized governments” are fairing.
    “Chancellor George Osborne is to slash welfare benefits by a further £7bn as he sets out the biggest spending cuts since World War Two.
    Up to 500,000 public sector jobs could go by 2014-15 due to the changes, according to the Office for Budgetary Responsibility.”
    story here:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11579979

  301. tzatza October 20, 2010 at 9:41 am #

    “President Obama and Democrats have proposed a $250 rebate to seniors who are not getting a cost-of-living increase in their Social Security benefits for the second year in a row, but critics are suggesting the promised pay-out is merely intended to sway the senior vote — and likely won’t even succeed in that, with the midterm election two weeks away.”
    Shit this bunch are morons. “Hey, here’s a fucking check. Vote for us.” (No one will notice how transparently phony this is, will they?)

  302. tzatza October 20, 2010 at 9:45 am #

    “President Obama plans to appear on Comedy Central’s “Daily Show” shortly before the midterm elections, a senior White House official tells CBS News, in what will be his first appearance on the show since becoming president.”
    Isn’t he quite kicky and hip?

  303. eightm October 20, 2010 at 10:05 am #

    Hey tata, you f*kweed, f*ktard, asswip*, moron, get a clue: we need free salaries, we need free houses, with CHEAP RENTS, enough with this capitalist, free market BS. We have huge excess capacity in the world, we are rich enough to end fighting between each other, we need huge governments and corporations hiring billions of people and giving them huge salaries for free even to do nothing at all, since all work has been automated by robots, because we have all the wealth for everyone you can possibly have.
    We need huge projects by governments and private corporations solar system size projects, like trillions of skyscrapers on Venus, trillions of Zeppelins on Jupiter and Saturn, trillions of huge Ocean Liners on Saturn and Jupiter since they are gas – ocean planets and we need to colonize them, and we need huge population growth to colonize the galaxy,
    Get a clue right wing thug, stop beating up your poor brother, give him everything for free, you are a christian aren’t you ? if you are not you must convert ….

  304. tzatza October 20, 2010 at 10:23 am #

    “Hey tata, you f*kweed, f*ktard, asswip*, moron, get a clue: we need free salaries, we need free houses, with CHEAP RENTS, enough with this capitalist..”
    Not really, idiot, you need a job. Now get out of bed and go get one.

  305. Aristo October 20, 2010 at 11:39 am #

    I started thinking about a “jubilee” in 2007. I do not think that it would stall things too much at all. As soon as people owned whatever it was that a “jubilee” gave them, they would immediately give a mortgage on it. The proceeds would be spent, some would be saved and invested, the consumer would be successfully re-yoked, and western society could begin focusing, for real, on how to reduce birth rates and create alternative food,transportation, and energy sources. Western Society, ala Carrol Quigley, needs to re-invent itself or this could really be a curtain call for the proverbial fat lady. Having said that, I also realize that “it ain’t gonna happen.” Bankers always have, and always will, view deflation as a “sound money policy.”
    Thanks for your work Jim, you have been a source of good information for years , and are much more important to the world than you know. I hope that someone in the executive branch of the U.S. gummint follows your drift.

  306. progressorconserve October 20, 2010 at 11:52 am #

    Speaking of trees –
    I saw some figures a few years ago indicating the the US might be a “net carbon sink” because we have so much forest land regenerating – land that was harvested of trees in the 1800 and 1900’s.
    I know there are 10’s of thousands of acres in Georgia that are now solid pine forest that once were open farmland, mostly for corn and cotton.
    =========
    To give some specifics:
    Planting rates for pine trees are 650 to 700 trees per acre – I’ve been involved in this industry since I was a little kid – so if anybody wants facts I can supply them.
    But remember the trees need to be thinned at about 15 years, otherwise they become suppressed, making them ineffective as fiber sources or as carbon sinks.
    Then the final harvest and replanting is usually made around 30 years.
    If the trees aren’t harvested, eventually they die, fall over, and the sequestered carbon returns to the atmosphere.
    Harvested wood built permanently into a house represents carbon sequestered *forever.*
    Kind of ironic to think about a huge mcmansion as a carbon sink, isn’t it.

  307. asoka October 20, 2010 at 12:12 pm #

    Tripp said: “Doesn’t matter how many commenters here believe in fairy tales of soldiering on, the physics of contraction will be, and is already, very different than the physics of expansion.”
    So, Tripp, since the United States military is the biggest consumer of energy, and you say the physics of contraction rules, when will the US military be grounded due to lack of combustibles? Can’t be soon enough for me.
    But then, I’m not buying into the physics of contraction argument. I think the US military will not come grinding to a halt due to lack of energy.
    Want to make a gentelmen’s wager?
    Pick a time period: 5 years, 10 years, 15 years, 50 years, and I will bet you the “physics of contraction” will not have stopped the functioning of US imperialist military actions. We will still have 700 bases in 184 countries and will still be bombing,invading, and occupying countries which are not a threat to our national security.

  308. progressorconserve October 20, 2010 at 12:17 pm #

    “77% of the brothers in prison are nonviolent offenders who shouldn’t be in medium and maximum security facilities to begin with.”
    Legalize drugs!!!
    Let me restate that, since I’m been reading so much TzaTza this morning. Legalize the fucktarded, motherfucking, fuckweeding, asswiping, and moronic drug policies in this Police State of America.
    Seriously, TZATZA, you have some good ideas, but I’ve begun to skip more and more of your posts because of the pointless invective.
    =============
    And back to you, Tripp, and feeding prisoners. It was not that long ago that every prison in Georgia had a large farm attached. Prisoners grew most of their own food. Those days ended, probably through a combination of “efficiency?,” kick-backs, and threatened ACLU action.
    Prisoners also (no joking) made all the license plates for the state of Georgia AND engaged in other “prison industries.”
    Now, I think prisoners mostly lift weights, play basketball, watch TV, and learn how to be better criminals and gangbangers when they get out.
    This is another one of those things that we have done in this country where one can honestly say
    WE REALLY COULD NOT HAVE FOULED IT UP ANY WORSE IF WE TRIED!!

  309. progressorconserve October 20, 2010 at 12:27 pm #

    “But then, I’m not buying into the physics of contraction argument. I think the US military will not come grinding to a halt due to lack of energy.”
    Asoka, you’re wrong. The physics of contraction is real. Oil is finite, coal is finite, uranium is finite. But you can bet if there is some technowonderfuel out there that the US military will claim it for itself first.
    You can also bet that the last precious drops of aviation fuel in the world will drip into the bottomless maw of US military aircraft.
    This is why I argue for reducing growth in US populations by any legal means necessary – especially including border security.
    The more US *citizens??* there are – the worse the US is going to act up when resources really get scarce.

  310. ozone October 20, 2010 at 12:27 pm #

    “Why should we wait until things really begin to break down under the population pressure? Why do we have to keep attending to business-as-usual until a high enough percentage of the population has cancer and diabetes? Why are we required to toil away the best decades of our lives in order to retire wealthy, but old and broken? Why do we need to waste the last drop of potable water on the lawn before we start getting rid of some mighty bad habits?” -Tripp
    Unfortunately, it’s “the way of the world” (in human concerns). Use it ’til it’s used up; then cast about for the next wonder-fix. You can see it RIGHT HERE on this h’yar site! “The Folks” do not want to face [an inevitable] contraction, thus ensuring the very worst outcomes of their vast inattention. (This has always been a head-scratcher to me: why would anyone come here, read JHK, and then ADVOCATE techno-triumphalism??)
    Deny hard enough, and reality will go away?
    Well, I s’pose it’s one way to make oneself “no longer a burden on anyone” in the shortest amount of time.
    Rational approaches to energy uses (and development of attendant technologies) should have begun in earnest when Carter sounded the alarm. Now we’re about [minimum] 30 years behind the eight ball.
    Sooooo, your approach is quite sensible…… therefore it will be roundly ignored [by most] until it’s far too late! ;o)
    I, for one, plan to attempt a survival strategy incorporating a careful listening to natural realities. I’m simply looking to a lifeboat for the kids. Might not work, but while the rest of America has lost its’ give-a-shit and is well on its’ way to Dumb-fuck-istan, I intend to try doing something.
    (Those of the yahoo persuasion can pray, bitch, and vote their way to oblivion, I’ll hedge my bets, thanks.)

  311. mila59 October 20, 2010 at 12:41 pm #

    Ozone said:
    “…(This has always been a head-scratcher to me: why would anyone come here, read JHK, and then ADVOCATE techno-triumphalism??)”
    All I can think, Ozone, is these folks come here just to be contrarians — or they haven’t read JHK’s “The Long Emergency.” Otherwise, the attitudes here are a complete mystery!
    and Tripp: don’t drive yourself over the edge trying to justify permaculture…you’re just wasting your energy here. Keep on keepin on. Lots of us believe in what you’re doing!

  312. asoka October 20, 2010 at 12:46 pm #

    ProCon, since you are a believer in the mythical “physics of contraction,” and it’s all supposedly based on science, you should be able to predict the year, decade, or century in which this mythical “physics of contraction” will bring the US military to a halt. I’m asking when. Do tell, please.
    If you can’t, then I question the science of the “physics of contraction” and will keep it in the myth category.
    I do understand myths are real stories, but they are not science. Science deals with Reality. I’m giving you the choice of a year, a decade, or a century. That’s a lot of leeway for scientific prediction. What say you? Based upon what evidence?

  313. James Crow October 20, 2010 at 12:53 pm #

    Exactly. I’ve been reading this clusterfuck thing for years. Nothing Mr. Kunstler has in the past predicted has come to fruition. Housing bubble bursting was supposed to make the market crash and crash it did – all to the benefit of the largest banksters who are keeping the manipulated markets – not “afloat” but absolutely “flying high and higher” instead. Obviously a whole load of folks read this blog religiously and there’s a certain attraction to the idea of the world falling apart at the seams. However those financiers and families who control most of the world aren’t about to just lose their control. There is no popular “uprising” because there are no leaders. Mass media will ignore any fledgling “movement” to death. They’ll let the masses post and email and pretend to think they’ll make a difference via the internet (all without any media support or a flesh-and-blood leader). The only chink in the elitists’ armor is that their fiat currency is but worthless (and growing worth less by the second) paper “money”. Our entire financial system is papered-over with paper money that costs more to print than it is worth as “cash”. Talk about a Paper Tiger…

  314. mika. October 20, 2010 at 1:03 pm #

    I’m giving you the choice of a year, a decade, or a century.
    ==
    I’ll take that, PC.
    Five to ten years. And not only will US forces leave those bases, they will leave those bases with their military equipment left behind. Five to ten years. That’s also, btw, the timeline on the viability of Saudi oil exports and the viability of the petrodollar, asoka. Five to ten years.

  315. progressorconserve October 20, 2010 at 1:07 pm #

    You deliberately missed my point
    The US military will NEVER contract at least in the next 50 years. It is the rest of the world that WILL contract.
    Therefore, the greater the population of the US, the worse it will be for the World at large.
    And what fantasy world do you live in where:
    A 224 year supply of coal
    A 100 year supply of uranium
    A 35? year supply of petroleum
    And the global warming/ecosystem collapse these energy sources engender.
    Are MYTHS???

  316. progressorconserve October 20, 2010 at 1:15 pm #

    Mr. Crow and Thrill,
    Mr. Kunstler is a talented writer and entertainer. Many people share his vision of a Planet on an unsustainable track. Many of us come here to clarify and renew our thinking on permaculture, renewable energy, politics, and a host of other things.
    Let us not confuse Mr. James Howard Kunstler with the freakin’ Oracle of Delphi,
    Please.

  317. ozone October 20, 2010 at 1:24 pm #

    “All I can think, Ozone, is these folks come here just to be contrarians — ” -mila59
    Hey, that’s certainly as good of an explanation as any (and better than lots)! I’m going with it. ;o)
    Yes, I believe a lot of the “contrariness” (‘scuse) is for the fun of blathering, regardless of self-contradiction and inanity. (Add in a pinch of “fucktard-ery” [tm MM] for good measure, and you’ve got a good stew a-bubblin’! Mmmm-mmm good… ;o)

  318. messianicdruid October 20, 2010 at 1:27 pm #

    “I am not making any statement about justice.”
    Why does this seem to be so typical. Talk about the gift wrapping instead of the gift. “I made the bow myself”.

  319. tzatza October 20, 2010 at 1:31 pm #

    “Seriously, TZATZA, you have some good ideas, but I’ve begun to skip more and more of your posts because of the pointless invective.”
    And um, I’m supposed to care?

  320. ozone October 20, 2010 at 1:32 pm #

    AHA! Good news, A. Here’s a prime indicator of “the beginning of the end”.

  321. ozone October 20, 2010 at 1:33 pm #

    Oops…
    Trying again…
    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article26628.htm

  322. tzatza October 20, 2010 at 1:34 pm #

    “So there was no difference under Stalin’s iron fist?
    ==
    No, there’s no difference. They’re all variations on the same theme. And you can add monarchism, corporatism, religionism, imperialism, etc”
    Oh for fucks sake. Stalin killed tens of millions of his own people. Ditto Mao. You are an unschooled idiot!

  323. progressorconserve October 20, 2010 at 1:38 pm #

    If you’re really Israeli, you may have a better perspective on this than I.
    I think Iraqi oil was the main reason for that war, and we aren’t coming out until it’s gone.
    I think the stability?? we provide for Saudi Arabia is essential to getting at the Iraqi oil.
    And then there’s Israel. US paternalism has been a mystery to me since ’67 when the Jews showed the world they could kick ass all by themselves.
    ===========
    I’ll be interested in your perspectives. But my larger point to Asoka remains unchanged.
    The US military will be the LAST part of the global power structure to feel the effects of energy contraction. And the more people in the US, the worse it will be for the rest of the world when truly bad things begin to happen on a Global Scale.
    ============
    And Ozone, funny stuff to Mila. Keep up the good work and keep up the preparations.
    =============
    And TZATZA, why splice pointless invective into generally well crafted paragraphs. Is there an organization of internet fucktards to which you are trying to gain membership or something?? :-)
    I’ll be HAPPY to nominate you – no cursing, insults, or invective required.
    Just send me the forms!

  324. mika. October 20, 2010 at 1:41 pm #

    Oh for fucks sake. Stalin killed tens of millions of his own people. Ditto Mao. You are an unschooled idiot!
    ==
    Right. And the US killed multiple times that figure thru the use wars, cancer viruses, std viruses, poisonous “food”, and stress. But you’re an ignorant idiot. An ignorant idiot that can’t understand that a smiling nazi is still a nazi.

  325. mika. October 20, 2010 at 1:47 pm #

    ..the use ^of wars..

  326. messianicdruid October 20, 2010 at 2:04 pm #

    “If you have a problem with animals and humans eating each other, you really should take it up with God.”
    Are you advocating humans eating other humans? If you accept the premise that humans are animals, you must. I do not.
    Taking it beyond the literal interpretation: if humans may {have permission to} farm other humans to “milk” them of wealth, or “pasture” them in ways profitable to “business”, or sacrifice them in war when they become too numerous, when they must be culled by some other means because of limited fodder, then no one has any reason to complain about any of these things.
    I have certain inalienable rights granted by God because I am a man, made in His image. No animal has been granted these rights. If you accept the premise that you are an animal, you can certainly expect to be treated like one, {ie: NO inalienable rights} by higher {supposedly} lifeforms.
    http://adask.wordpress.com/2008/06/17/man-or-other-animals-1/

  327. asoka October 20, 2010 at 2:47 pm #

    ProCon,
    Please don’t confuse infinite energy with finite fossil fuel based energy resources. But even on that front, I maintain you are the one living in a fantasy. I recall reading studies in the 1970’s that earnestly stated that we only had ~20-30 years of oil and gas reserves left (based on proven reserves, and the rate of consumption back then).
    In other words, we would have run out already.
    Needless to say, those predictions didn’t pan out. Despite large increases in consumption rates (especially for gas), not only have we not run out, but the estimated reserves have actually gotten larger (as more oil/gas was discovered than was consumed).
    This is the result of enormous efforts (and expenditures) to explore, locate, and drill for gas and oil. Now the production peak is still one (or several) decades ahead of us [depending on the rate of increasing demand in China and India], and reserves won’t run dry for several decades. My favorite number is 47 years. :)
    In the same vein, we continually hear about how the “proven reserves” of uranium will only last ~50 years at current consumption levels. These estimates, however, have an even weaker basis than the oil/gas estimates of the 1970’s, since the amount of effort and expenditure that has been put, as of today, into uranium exploration and development is far smaller than that put into gas and oil exploration, even as of the 1970’s.
    Some have even said that the amount of uranium exploration is more equivalent to that which had been put into oil exploration as of the 1900s (when Western Pennsylvania surface oil was just about all anyone knew about). This is probably an exaggeration, but not to as great an extent as one may think.
    But you are free to believe the finite resources myth. Just don’t confuse oil/coal resources with energy resources and you can leave your fantasy world and join mine, where energy will never run out. I’ve been right for the last 40 years.

  328. trippticket October 20, 2010 at 2:54 pm #

    “and Tripp: don’t drive yourself over the edge trying to justify permaculture…you’re just wasting your energy here. Keep on keepin on. Lots of us believe in what you’re doing!”
    Thanks, Mila! Just what I needed today. I’m just not going to sit around flapping my gums about when the shit is supposed to hit the fan, how many Friedman units away it is, who could possibly be at fault, to which of the two aristocratic parties the culprits belong, and how the brown people and Jews did this to us.
    Likewise, anyone who thinks that we can continue on a planet-destroying trajectory just to feed more hungry people is batty, and probably running for office. They should remember Wage’s axiom, that economy is a subset of ecology, not the other way around.
    We’re not building a stocked bunker to dash away to when the riots begin, we’re going ahead and getting on with the business of radical reduction of energy consumption, so our grandchildren have something resembling a living planet left to them. And more people are doing it all the time. Fun thing to watch.
    How many Friedman units away a big enough wake-up call is is totally irrelevant.
    Glad you’re with me!

  329. progressorconserve October 20, 2010 at 3:13 pm #

    That is exactly analogous to your saying:
    I have always been in good health and always been alive. Therefore I shall always be alive and in good health.
    No human system will last forever.
    Realism always wins in the end.

  330. asia October 20, 2010 at 3:44 pm #

    MIKA…if soros is not a player who is? can you name him/her/them?
    didnt soros bring havoc to the [ringbat?] 20 or so years ago? was that just a ‘blip’?

  331. asia October 20, 2010 at 3:47 pm #

    let turkey join his apologist friends at newsweek
    [ the way newsweeks shrinkin it should be news MONTH, that way it can be 200 pages per issue!]
    dickey / yousafzai ‘ turn on the red light’
    Newsweek Blames the Victim: Magazine Sees Anti-Islamist …
    Oct 11, 2010 … In “Turn On the Red Light,” Dickey and Yousafzai went so far as to suggest that anti-Islamist politicians like the Netherlands’ Geert …
    http://www.newsbusters.org/…/newsweek-blames-victim-magazine-sees-anti-islamist-politicians-europe- – CachedChristopher Dickey | NewsBusters.org
    In “Turn On the Red Light,” Dickey and Yousafzai went so far as to suggest …
    newsbusters.org/people/christopher-dickey
    Muslim Bashers Raise Europe’s Terrorism Risk – Newsweek
    Oct 4, 2010 … Turn on the Red Light. Muslim-bashing politicians may get votes, but they’re … Europe, Islam and Terror Christopher Dickey, Newsweek Paris bureau chief, …. With Sami Yousafzai in Islamabad, Tracy Mcnicoll in Paris, …
    http://www.newsweek.com/…/how-muslim-bashers-raise-europe-s-terrorism-risk.html – CachedNewsweek Blames the Victim: Magazine Sees Anti-Islamist …
    Oct 11, 2010 … In “Turn On a Red Light,” Dickey and Yousafzai went so distant as to advise that anti-Islamist politicians like a Netherlands’ Geert Wilders …
    mmc-news.com/…/newsweek-blames-the-victim-magazine-sees-anti-islamist-politicians-in-europe-to-blame-for-heightened-threats/ – CachedBlogs on: Stop The Presses! (this time) Newsweek doesn’t blame the …
    Oct 4, 2010 … Newsweek : Turn on the Red Light The State. … 4 Newsweek story by Christopher Dickey and Sami Yousafzai. In “Turn On the Red Light,”. …
    http://www.liquida.com/blog-news/…/pakistan-al-qaeda-islam/ – CachedNewsweek: Turn on the red light – Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life
    Newsweek: Turn on the red light. by Christopher Dickey and Sami Yousafzai Newsweek. The most popular film in France for the past three weeks has been Of …
    pewforum.org/…/Newsweek–Turn-on-the-red-light.aspx – CachedTurn on the Red Light
    Turn on the Red Light. Sunday, 03 October 2010 17:51 … by Christopher Dickey and Sami Yousafzai. The most popular film in France for the past three weeks …

  332. asia October 20, 2010 at 3:51 pm #

    ok yr forgiven!
    socialism = govt ‘freebies’ theyre not getting.

  333. Vlad Krandz October 20, 2010 at 4:01 pm #

    As I’ve told you before, you pontificate with an inadequate base of knowledge. Democracy was never supposed to be universal – but only for the qualified. Thus the Founding Fathers believed and the Ancient Greeks as well. And everyone in the chronological middle. It is the Classical Tradition. Of course it’s going to be a bloody mess if you let every Tom, Dick, and Jose vote. People nowadays are so crazy that they think illegals should vote. The Democratic Party isn’t there yet, but their shining dream of the moment is to get criminals voting – thus locking in on power “forever” – though that forever is likely to be quite short.

  334. Vlad Krandz October 20, 2010 at 4:05 pm #

    The “brothers”? Do you mean all prisoners or just Blacks? All the cops are criminals and all the criminals, saints – right? It’s called antinominalism and it’s a cognitive disease; a symptom of a poorly functioning hsin or heart/mind. Heaven must be above and Earth below. To reverse this spells misfortune.

  335. Vlad Krandz October 20, 2010 at 4:14 pm #

    You are cunning indeed to answer my easy post (not really) and ignore my difficult one that challenges your whole world view. And I even kept race out of it – just for you!

  336. Vlad Krandz October 20, 2010 at 4:21 pm #

    Henry David Thoreau said that future ages would look on our meat eating the way that we look on human cannibalism. I eat meat but sometimes I ponder his statement and wonder if he may well be right. Thoreau himself went too far and tried to live on just cabbage or something. Some think this mono diet helped bring on his TB. The human body loves diversity in the realm of diet – just not all in one meal.
    When asked where he would get his strength from, he would point to the work horse and ask where does the horse get his from. But this is an error since we are not horses and cannot digest the way they do. Substitute protein for strength and the dialogue is made relevant. Smart people often make simple errors because of the fanaticisms of idealism or an poorly working heart/mind. The heart tries to take the place of the mind in other words. You do this more than any other living person on Earth.

  337. networker October 20, 2010 at 4:42 pm #

    Tripp said,
    “Then you’re not doing a full accounting on the real costs of agriculture. Mother Nature won’t make the same mistake I assure you.”
    Very well spoken. And I feel your pain. Again. Indeed why bother making salient points to the willfully ignorant?
    But go ahead Asoka, deny ’til you die. You don’t even understand the definition of the word “physics.” You have all the brains that God gave to fishbait. ProCon, I feel your pain too.
    tzatza is the other one I scroll right through and don’t bother reading. And now the genius eightm has joined in with more verbal diarrhea. Lot of scrolling today.
    messianicdruid, for pete’s sake, what did I say that would make you even remotely think that I was “advocating eating humans”?? Just because humans are animals doesn’t mean we are required to eat them. (I can’t believe I needed to point that out to you.) I don’t eat cats either, and they are animals. Please don’t turn this into a stupid religious argument, because I have no patience for that. That being said, in a truly desperate survival situation, in order to stay alive, any one of us WOULD eat the meat of a fellow human being. Including you and Asoka.

  338. tzatza October 20, 2010 at 4:42 pm #

    “I have certain inalienable rights granted by God because I am a man, made in His image.”
    No you don’t. On four recent, separate occasions, OBama has quoted this passage from the Declaration of Independence:
    “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. ”
    Each time he used this passage he eliminated the word, Creator. You just think you have rights granted by God. According to Big-O you do not.

  339. asoka October 20, 2010 at 4:49 pm #

    ProCon, of course you are right. No carbon-based energy source is infinite.
    Carbon-based fuels will run out and eventually the sun will burn out. But long after oil/coal,etc. is gone, and as long as the sun shines, we will have energy. It is up to us to reduce global population, reduce energy consumption, get off the carbon-based energy, and figure out how the permaculturally productive ways to use the sun’s energy.
    For all practical purposes, solar energy is infinite… humans will probably be long gone before the sun burns out.

  340. tzatza October 20, 2010 at 4:54 pm #

    “Right. And the US killed multiple times that figure thru the use wars, cancer viruses, std viruses, poisonous “food”, and stress.”
    Sure the U.S. did. The U.S., as a nation killed over 100,000,000 via the means you cite. And of course you have the science and evidence that supports this clap trap? Of course you don’t. Because what you claim is untrue.
    You are a MORON and probably a liar but sometimes MORONS aren’t even aware that they are lying so I’ll forgive you that. Now shut up and get in line for your next feeding, idiot.

  341. BeantownBill October 20, 2010 at 5:04 pm #

    Why does everything have to be either/or, black or white, left or right? Life is extremely complicated and any solutions to our current issues will probably contain elements of everyone here’s opinion.
    I am an unabashed technophile, and I see trends that indicate we WILL be able to surmount society’s problens, but I also recognize we are at a place where we have strained our resources to the breaking point. So why not adopt a stringent cutback in consumerism, population limits and living a simpler existence; and simultaneously push forward with technological advances that will allow us to use more effectively whatever resources we have left, while pursuing new sources of energy? To do both is not impossible. To not try to do both is a crime against humanity and the Earth.
    It’s obvious that we are in Afghanistan and Iraq to secure for ourselves a future supply of the remaining oil in the mideast. I can see our government’s reasoning on this. But the sheer immorality of war and the murder of innocent people will stain our country’s legacy forever. The equal immorality of lying about our true intentions is staggering to me. Starting a war is evil, but at least, if we do, tell the truth and say, “Look, our society is dependent on oil, and we don’t want to drastically change our lifestyle, so we’re taking your oil. Tough shit for you, but who says life is fair (although we’ll pay you a little for the oil we take)?”
    At least that’s honest.
    I bring this subject up because our wars in the mideast have cost us $1 trillion. It would have been far more rational and moral to have not spent that money rhe way we did. We could have taken $500 billion to devise programs to save our own resources and change our lifestyle accordingly, and invested the other $500 billion towards technological progress. And if we still needed more money, we could have cut the annual military budget from the current high 700 billions to the high 500 billions, thus giving us an additional $200 billion per year, or $1 trillion every 5 years.
    See, we can have a plan A AND a plan B. You want to be more on the pessimistic side, you got the financial wherewithal to prepare for the bad times; you think we can go forward into a bright future, you got the financial resources to accomplish it. You don’t know what will happen, you got plan A and a fallback plan B. Why does it have to be one way or the other? Why can’t we find ways to reconcile our views?

  342. BeantownBill October 20, 2010 at 5:13 pm #

    It’s too bad for me that you are such a rascist pig, because otherwise I could like you. See, your attitude is depriving me of something potentially valuable. Other than the race stuff, I think you have made some correct and interesting comments.

  343. BeantownBill October 20, 2010 at 5:16 pm #

    “Carbon-based fuels will run out and eventually the sun will burn out. But long after oil/coal,etc. is gone, and as long as the sun shines, we will have energy. It is up to us to reduce global population, reduce energy consumption, get off the carbon-based energy, and figure out how the permaculturally productive ways to use the sun’s energy.”
    Asoka, you are correct. And I think we have the ability to accomplish all this.

  344. BeantownBill October 20, 2010 at 5:23 pm #

    Maybe I’m having a very mellow day, but you are making me very nervous – I’m starting to understand and agree with some of what you say, although you still are too paranoid for me. Who knows, maybe tomorrow I won’t think you are paranoid, or maybe I’ll think you are, even more so. Isn’t life grand?

  345. Bustin J October 20, 2010 at 5:46 pm #

    Trip metered out: “”In fact, authoritarian agriculture is more along the lines of the future I see us facing. It will be more like the FDA taking over Monsanto though.”
    Yes, yes, we get it, bigger, faster, more. More fascist marriage of state and corporation (Mussolini’s definition, not mine), more gigantism, more #2 field corn to rot our brains with. It’s a pretty picture you paint.”
    Its not a pretty vista.
    I see nothing but upsides in genetic engineering. Monsanto had to build its business model and research base on #2 corn. That was the dominant food crop. Now its too big to fail. Too many people depend on the calories produced by its technology.
    If you want to save soil, how about soilless cultivation. If meat is murder, destroy its profitability by creating algal and fungal alternatives. If farming is an environmental blight, go vertically-integrated production in population centers. If required nutrients are hard to come by, grow microorganisms to produce them at low cost.
    #2 corn was just a baby step. I’m thinking of creating food from whole cloth. There is nothing inherently moral about meat production, fishing, or farming anyway. The upside is that non-real food will likely be more nutritious and tasty. What parent is not already preparing their kids to accept it by feeding them Lucky Charms, and other colorful, artificial foods. Kids prefer non-real food to real food already by a large margin. Real food is nothing but slavery to quaint notions revealed to be arbitrary by science and knowledge gains.
    Real food will always exist, sure. Farming lifestyles will exist to support it (before it becomes obvious that, in the face of climate change, impossible). But the consumers of such will pay an exorbitant tax on their nostalgia.

  346. progressorconserve October 20, 2010 at 5:49 pm #

    A, it’s rare that you agree with me in print on here, so I hate to call you on this one, but:
    “ProCon, of course you are right. No carbon-based energy source is infinite”
    You are incorrect about this. Tripp’s gardens, some agriculture, the tons and tons of biomass fuel on my grandpappy’s old farm that I’m trying to contract to sell to Georgia Power – all of these and many others are INFINITE and carbon based.
    Unless and until we screw up global ecosystems to the point that photosynthesis no longer works.
    What you should say to be correct is that “no fossil fuel based energy source is infinite.”

  347. turkle October 20, 2010 at 5:55 pm #

    TzaTza daBore,
    One at a time…
    “FDR did not get us out of the Depression. It was WWII.”
    Telling someone to do their own research does not constitute a convincing argument, unless we’re talking about something obvious like the fact that the earth goes around the sun.
    Getting back to the topic…WWII occurred from 1939 to 1945. FDR was president during that time period. FDR was responsible was putting the country on a war footing. He was in charge almost to the end of it as the commander in chief. So it is inane to say that he had nothing to do with the end of the Great Depression if you argue that WWII was the cause of it ending. It is self-evident that FDR was the primary mover in American politics during that time.
    The burden of proof is on you to provide some documentation that argues otherwise. You haven’t. I would actually welcome this, because I’m fascinated with that time period.
    And then there was the New Deal, which of course, did nothing to help end the Great Depression, right? I suppose that’s what you’d argue, but you’d be wrong. I’m going to go tell you to do your own research on that one (teehee), seeing as how it is completely obvious that government programs did prevent nation-wide collapse during that time period. Many people would not have even survived without them.
    “The stimulus didn’t work.”
    Is that right? Since when are you an economics expert Ms. TzaTza? Why don’t we instead ask Bank of America and Goldman Sachs and other firms whose bacon was saved by it to report whether they think it worked or not?
    Or let’s do a little thought experiment. In the alternative scenario where the bailout/stimulus didn’t occur, where would we be right now? Better/worse? You would rather have seen most major US financial institutions collapse, I suppose. And that would have been good/better how? It would have been almost unimaginably worse if the financial system had been allowed to collapse. But that would have been better in your mind, because it would fulfill some kind of fantasy you have about the sanctity of free markets.
    Again, you make an unsubstantiated assertion arguing against common sense, and then expect everyone to take your word for it (presumably because we are all “morons” or some such).
    “German cuts in government blah blah blah Europe crumbling blah blah blah”
    Using this as an example is like me pointing at Enron to say that capitalism doesn’t work. Businesses and governments make adjustments to their numbers of employees, their budgets, etc. when they have to. It doesn’t mean the sky is falling or that capitalism or government doesn’t work.
    Have governments overreached and gotten themselves into financial trouble? Sure. But so have businesses and corporations.
    “needs/wants….government shouldn’t provide wants, blah blah blah”
    What are the basic human needs? We only require food, water, and basic shelter. That means that in the right climate you could live in a tent and have only rice to eat and water to drink (as is the situation with many refugees). Beyond that, everything is technically a want. So the government does provide for peoples desires, not just what they need.
    For instance, the government provides SS so that seniors can have some measure of stability and security in their retirement. A high percentage of seniors depend on SS payments. Otherwise, they could live in their kid’s attic or maybe under a highway overpass, but we have decided to go beyond needs and provide for their wants. Is that such a bad thing? Um, no, of course not.
    And please don’t fucking go off on your Grover Norquist inspired rant about how SS is so evil and wrong. I’m simply using it as an example.
    “morons, fucktards, et al”
    The more you call other people names, the dumber it makes you appear. Truly intelligent people do not feel the need to boost up their egos by tossing insults at anyone who disagrees with them.

    That is all. I eagerly await your reply to see what new and exciting invective you are full of today.

  348. progressorconserve October 20, 2010 at 6:09 pm #

    Excellent, excellent post, Bill.
    The one that included:
    “I am an unabashed technophile, and I see trends that indicate we WILL be able to surmount society’s problems, but I also recognize we are at a place where we have strained our resources to the breaking point.”
    Some version of that is why almost all of us are here. Personally, I’m after PV and huge reduction in demand.
    Tripp is all about surviving and thriving without electricity after a six out of one population keyhole.
    Bustin just stated he is ready for engineered fungal/algal foods – sounds like one of 8M’s skyscrapers would be a great place for such a breakfast.
    ——-
    To end with humor; why, WHY is it that I can buy a 50 pound sack of food for my dogs that has all the *stuff* they need for LIFE. (one is 16)
    But, to my best knowledge, there is not ONE single food fit to keep a human alive for years at a time – even on an emergency basis?
    And think how easy the marketing will be for Bustin’s fungus food. Just have a big talking mushroom or slime mold or something with bright stripes like Tony the Tiger. “Fungal Flakes! They’re FFUUNNN!”

  349. progressorconserve October 20, 2010 at 6:25 pm #

    And referring to Vlad:
    “It’s too bad for me that you are such a rascist pig, because otherwise I could like you.”
    Bill, maybe I’ve missed some things, but I haven’t seen Vlad say anything overtly racist in weeks.
    And Vlad makes some interesting points that racism, tribalism, whatever may be hard wired into the gene pool – waiting to come out if times get hard.
    Soooo, maybe this forum is as good a place as any to explore the issue – as long as it’s done politely and factually.
    Two things I’ll tell the world I HATE upfront:
    1. Talk of splitting off Mississippi, Alabama, whatever, into some kind of black colony – that’s immoral, impractical, and stupid on every possible level.
    2. Invidious or slanderous talk – ’cause where I am in the Old South race is still a powderkeg – and we don’t need any sparks around any of the multiple fuses.

  350. BeantownBill October 20, 2010 at 6:41 pm #

    “To end with humor; why, WHY is it that I can buy a 50 pound sack of food for my dogs that has all the *stuff* they need for LIFE. (one is 16)
    But, to my best knowledge, there is not ONE single food fit to keep a human alive for years at a time – even on an emergency basis?”
    You know, that’s a great question. If you can do that for dogs (and I have a cat, same thing, we feed it the one kind of food), you should be able to do that for people.
    But, thinking about it further,you can consume complete protein by eating a combo of beans and rice. If you analyze what humans need to survive, you could probably concoct a complete food product out of many different foods, and can or bag it. Look at the ingredients on a can of dogfood or catfood, and you can see many ingredients that go into it. Maybe we should market the idea of complete food in a can.

  351. BeantownBill October 20, 2010 at 7:01 pm #

    “And referring to Vlad”
    Hmmm. You may be right about no rascist remarks. I’ll think about it.
    I could see xenophobic behavior as a survival mechanism in bad times, but I think that discrimination against a melanin-enhanced group of American citizens is just plain rascist. And the same goes for discrimination against any group of US citizens – they are, after all, our people, so I think that,too, is not xenophobia but just old-fashioned prejudice. Of course, my argument depends on how restrictive you define xenophobia. For example, you could define xenophobia to include behavior against people living on the next street.

  352. BeantownBill October 20, 2010 at 7:07 pm #

    Oops, I misspelled racist a few times. Maybe the concept is so repellent to me I can’t even stand to see the word in print.

  353. Bustin J October 20, 2010 at 7:07 pm #

    Actually, dog food is perfectly edible. All the ingredients are just natural food, processed. One problem with pet food for humans is the formulation that causes the four-legged animal to be constipated all of the time. Remove the blown-in sawdust and rendered bone and hair parts and I do believe we have Campbell’s (slightly less) chunky soup.
    I think the progression has already started in the idea that making a successful artificial food is largely about its aesthetic qualities.
    Humans are more picky eaters than animals. We require our traditional foods, or we will be unhappy. A Mexican needs his Burritos or he will be depressed. The American needs his hamburger. The Japanese needs his sushi.
    It greatly simplifies things to raise the younger generations on artificial foods with colorful shapes and sizes. That way there will be less unhappy aesthetically with the alternatives.
    Another proof that we need a strong handed government controlling industries is their tendency to make poor quality, low value products with high addictive potential and high profit margins.
    I believe we began allowing such corporations to market directly to kids during the Reagan years.
    Man, if I had a time machine, I’d go back to 1982 and bitch-slap that motherfucker.

  354. trippticket October 20, 2010 at 7:10 pm #

    “Maybe we should market the idea of complete food in a can.”
    It’s people! IT’S PEOPLE!!

  355. BeantownBill October 20, 2010 at 7:11 pm #

    “Man, if I had a time machine, I’d go back to 1982 and bitch-slap that motherfucker.”
    Yeah, and you’d probably be shot before you got within 5 feet of the sucker.

  356. Cash October 20, 2010 at 7:12 pm #

    Now about this challenge to my worldview.
    Just so with the desire to “help” the world by conqering it – in reality a lust for new markets and the absolute power gained thereby. – Vlad
    The US is not all powerful. You don’t remotely have the power to conquer the whole world. Never did. Your nukes are as militarily useful as a box of fireworks, and right now, much of your military is a useless pile of expensive high tech junk. Nobody is afraid of it because Americans no longer have the stomach to use it.
    Iraq and Afghanistan? They’re barely disputes. Canada, a tiny country compared to the US, would lose as many men in a few DAYS of fighting in WW1 as the US has lost in YEARS of fighting in Iraq.
    If Americans were the same people as the Greatest Generation, which they are not, if they had the same unshakeable self belief, then much of the Middle East would be a burn mark in the sand after what happened 9/11. Which it is not. We wouldn’t right now still be talking about Saudi financing and indoctrination of terrorists, we wouldn’t be contemplating an Iranian nuke and worrying about the security of Pakistan’s own nuclear force.
    American reaction to 9/11, ie taking on Sadam and the Taliban, were not determined by American strength but by American weakness. IMO the real bad guys were Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. But taking them on would have been bloody and difficult. Bush had to salvage something from the debacle so he went after Sadam and the Taliban.
    Having said all this, for decades after WW2, the US did the world the magnificent service of facing down communism. The world, whether it realises it or not, owes a huge debt of gratitude to Americans for the millions of man years and trillions of dollars expended not to mention thousands of American lives in Vietnam and Korea.
    No matter how bad you think American capitalists are the communists were orders of magnitude worse. I’ve written in previous posts about co-workers and acquaintances who lived under communism and who were eye witnesses to their depravities so I won’t bore you again with it.
    IMO the US found itself in position of global power partly through its own designs but mainly because of circumstances not of its making, circumstances created by the actions of other powers. The US became a global player because it had to.
    European and Asian powers IMO are at fault for inflicting the two world wars. They are as much at fault for the Cold War as the US and they were mostly responsible for determining the shape of the world as it is today. Nazi-ism and communism are not the inventions of Americans. But they were worldwide realities that Americans could not ignore.
    First Nazi-ism had to be stopped. The US did its fair share it getting rid of that devil. There was no negotiating with Nazis, they had to be put in the grave.
    So why were US forces kept post WW2 in Europe and Asia? To keep the Germans and Japanese down and to keep the Communists out. After what Germany and Japan inflicted in WW2 I don’t think there was any choice.
    And Communism had to be stopped but nobody else had the will or wherewithal to do it. For a long time it looked as if the Communists had the upper hand and it looked like they might prevail. So Americans are to be commended for not giving up or giving in.
    So maybe the US is guilty of deploying its military worldwide. But for some reason nobody, especially liberals, takes the communist powers to task for doing this same thing. It’s only the US that’s at fault. For years lone 2,500 ton Canadian frigates were sent to ride herd on battlegroups of 20,000 ton Soviet missile-cruisers and 10,000 ton destroyers skirting our waters. I guess the US Navy couldn’t be everywhere.
    Britain, France, Germany and Spain were colonial powers but IMO the US was not and is not. Because if it was then my country would have been conquered a long time ago. Canada has everything a ravenous imperialist power could want and would have been the easiest possible conquest. But last I looked there are no US soldiers on our streets, our women are unbothered by swaggering GIs, Americans are buying our goods and services, they are not stealing them. We are the beneficiaries of selling to you guys. We make an awful good living at it. The most important person in Ottawa is not an American general nor the US ambassador.
    So having said all this I don’t think the American military is remotely sustainable. You no longer have the financial capacity to do it, nor the will. The industrial half of your military industrial complex is on Chinese soil and under de-facto Chinese control. The US will contract as a world power.
    You guys are at least ten years late in pulling back. Like the Westmount Rhodesians in Montreal, the commies are gone.
    And good for you for leaving race out of it. Just for me? I’m flattered.

  357. BeantownBill October 20, 2010 at 7:15 pm #

    Hey, it seemed to work in “Soylent Green”. It keeps the population down while feeding the rest. LOL.

  358. trippticket October 20, 2010 at 7:15 pm #

    “I believe we began allowing such corporations to market directly to kids during the Reagan years.”
    How ’bout back when Coca-Cola changed Santa’s colors from green and gold to red and white to popularize their product with the youngsters?
    Not that I don’t approve of your bitch-slapping Reagan.

  359. Cash October 20, 2010 at 7:41 pm #

    Tripp, look at Liverpool. 8 games played, 19th place, 6 points, in the relegation zone right in the crapper with West Ham and Wolves. Mind boggling.

  360. turkle October 20, 2010 at 7:46 pm #

    How Tea Partiers get everything wrong.
    http://www.newsweek.com/2010/10/17/how-tea-partiers-get-the-constitution-wrong.html

  361. messianicdruid October 20, 2010 at 7:47 pm #

    “…what did I say that would make you even remotely think that I was “advocating eating humans”?? Just because humans are animals doesn’t mean we are required to eat them.”
    Not required, allowed. Even if you personally don’t eat them, as you don’t eat cats, others may. It’s not a religious argument unless a legal {lawful} argument is {by definition} religious. If you call humans animals, you must take the next {prudent} step of advocating against eating them, with some type of justification. You did not, therefore that option remains open.
    But, please don’t get all balled up in the literal application of this short-sighted paradigm. It is more important, to me, that you deal with the rights mankind enjoys, and should respect and protect, and appear to be pissed-away by calling ourselves animals.

  362. BeantownBill October 20, 2010 at 8:00 pm #

    US nuclear weapons can’t be ignored. Sure, among rational people, nukes are useless because everyone knows they would never be employed. The problem is the irrational people – they wouldn’t hesitate to use nukes if they felt they could get what they want that way. For that reason, nuclear arms are truly frightening.

  363. asia October 20, 2010 at 8:10 pm #

    NETS:
    as a vegetarian for 40 years I must comment on yr:
    ‘I don’t eat cats’..uh, havent you noticed folks usually shun eating carnivores and like eating grass eaters [lamb,cow,horse]. in the case of fish i assume most fish eat other fish.
    also there are culutral prohibitions on eating pets, except in crass areas of asia, where culture disappeared around the time of maos surge to power.
    and vlad good for you for pointing out that now that 1 in 4 black males is a felon the DP wants tfelons to have the ‘right’ to vote [ democrat, of course]

  364. asia October 20, 2010 at 8:13 pm #

    but in a world where so many go to prison for so little their work may just be slave labor!
    did that occur to you?
    and it happens in russia and china, both of whom have a significant or did have a % of their GDP from slave labor in prison camps…ah the things leftist professors dont tell their students.
    mnow with prisons privatized and gone public you can read in Fortune etc about ‘investing’ in prisons! yikes!!

  365. asia October 20, 2010 at 8:14 pm #

    ‘rascist pig’
    maybe PC is a racist, and hes not good enough for me to label him a ‘pig’!

  366. asoka October 20, 2010 at 8:17 pm #

    ProCon said: “…the tons and tons of biomass fuel on my grandpappy’s old farm … all of these and many others are INFINITE and carbon based. Unless and until we screw up global ecosystems to the point that photosynthesis no longer works.”
    All that biomass burning creates a carbon footprint that can be worse for global warming than coal.
    SOURCE: http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-20007484-54.html#ixzz12wnwoPCN
    You are right that biomass, Tripp’s gardens, etc. are infinite. I should have said “fossil-fuel” based energy is finite.
    I stand corrected. Thank you, ProCon.

  367. turkle October 20, 2010 at 8:19 pm #

    “leftist professors”
    Who are these mythical leftists that still think China and Russia are grand benevolent Communist utopias? I didn’t think they existed anymore, or perhaps there’s like one guy at Berkeley…

  368. progressorconserve October 20, 2010 at 8:32 pm #

    Asoka, do you ever READ the articles you cite?
    This one said:”measure the greenhouse gas impacts of using biomass, which, in many cases, does not meet claims of being “carbon neutral” over short periods of time.”
    Read more: http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-20007484-54.html#ixzz12wrcaDbo
    SHORT PERIODS OF TIME. It is impossible to argue that burning coal or oil (carbon sequestered for millions of years) impacts atmospheric CO2 more than burning weeds and brush. (Carbon sequestered for many days or months.)
    However, we appreciate your retraction and thank you. Wish we could see more of that kind of think on here – or anywhere in *public* life! :-)

  369. asoka October 20, 2010 at 8:36 pm #

    Cash said: “But for some reason nobody, especially liberals, takes the communist powers to task for doing this same thing. It’s only the US that’s at fault.”
    Today I am taking to task the USA for the countries USA has bombed and invaded and occupied in the Middle East and for having hundreds of military bases all over the world.
    I condemned China for its actions in Tibet. I will gladly condemn any communist country that bombs, invades, and occupies other countries the way the USA does.
    Please name a communist country that has hundreds of military bases in a worldwide empire. I don’t think any communist country has done that. As soon as you enlighten me, I will gladly condemn military adventurism (like Russia in Afghanistan), whether it be USA or communist countries doing it.
    However, today it is only the USA that has military bases all over, is actively overthrowing democratically elected governments, invading countries, bombing civilian infrastructure, occupying countries, and building military bases from which to mount military operations in foreign countries which never threatened the USA militarily.
    Who else, communist or otherwise, is doing that today? Your claim, “nobody, especially liberals, takes the communist powers to task for doing this same thing” is hollow and meaningless and does not describe anything happening in the 21st century. The USA and Israel have both been on a tear in the 21st century. Get up to speed with the 21st century, Cash.

  370. progressorconserve October 20, 2010 at 8:37 pm #

    SHORT PERIODS OF TIME. It is impossible to argue that burning coal or oil (carbon sequestered for millions of years) impacts atmospheric CO2 **more** than burning weeds and brush.
    Obviously the word **more** is an error. I was going for *less.*
    Bad, Procon, BAD BAD! Go sleep in the basement!
    ============
    And Tripp, while I’m on the subject of how I speak to my dogs ;0) do you mean to tell me that when you have come in from a road trip, the wife and kids are hungry, and you’re gonna have to harvest a squash, cut up a chicken and cook for an hour before anyone eats – – That you would not happily open up a can of Purina Human Chow?? ;-)

  371. asoka October 20, 2010 at 8:45 pm #

    ProCon said: “It is impossible to argue that burning coal or oil (carbon sequestered for millions of years) impacts atmospheric CO2 more than burning weeds and brush. (Carbon sequestered for many days or months.)”
    Do you ever proofread your writing before you post?
    You are saying: “It is impossible to argue burning coal or oil impacts atmospheric CO2 more than burning weeds and brush.”
    Yet you are trying to sell to Georgia Power an energy source that you claim “impacts atmospheric CO2 more than coal or oil.”
    Your turn for a retraction? :)

  372. progressorconserve October 20, 2010 at 8:45 pm #

    you say:
    “but in a world where so many go to prison for so little their work may just be slave labor!
    did that occur to you?”
    Maybe, asia, but not in the States, at least not any more. Prison laundry, mail, cleaning – sure, just no useful work.
    Our convicts concentrate on weight lifting, basketball, acquiring prison tat’s and becoming better thugs upon release.
    You are correct that prisons have become a huge business. I actually owned a little prison management company stock for a while, but sold it out of a sense of moral repugnance. Plus, it sucked as a stock!

  373. progressorconserve October 20, 2010 at 9:03 pm #

    Asia, quote below is from you –
    “‘rascist pig’
    maybe PC is a racist, and hes not good enough for me to label him a ‘pig’!”
    The original “racist pig” in my post was Vlad, as nominated by BeanTownBill. Leave me out of this would you – in either the porcine department or the racine TM department? ;-)
    ================
    And Asoka, since I have observed that you rarely read back “up the thread” for missed posts, I will refer you to my correction of 8:37 WHICH proceeds your request for a retraction at 8:45, by 8 full minutes.
    Gotta love that math.
    And seriously, I’ve been sick for the last couple of days due to a bad blood donation or some bad “county fair” food coupled with dehydration resulting from a normal blood donation.
    Any, I’m like a lifetime 6 gallon or so blood donor – and this is the first time I’ve ever had to call the blood bank to tell them to throw out my blood – I’m bummed out.
    And I’ve been on this computer so much that my brain is turning fungal or algal from the inside out. Oh well- gotta do something when you can’t play in the dirt! :0)

  374. mika. October 20, 2010 at 9:15 pm #

    MIKA…if soros is not a player who is? can you name him/her/them?
    ==
    Old money.

  375. networker October 20, 2010 at 9:19 pm #

    ProCon said,
    “WHY is it that I can buy a 50 pound sack of food for my dogs that has all the *stuff* they need for LIFE.”
    Well you can buy what they SAY is all that dogs need for life, but it really isn’t. Dogs are not meant to eat kibble any more than you are meant to eat grass. BustinJ is correct, pet food is a horrific concoction. (Very nice explanation here: http://www.jlhweb.net/BOSS/think.html)
    Dogs are meant to eat raw meat. Also for humans, that “complete” protein you get from beans and rice is fine if protein per se is the only requirement you are trying to fulfill. Unfortunately human beings also require other nutrients, in this case specifically vitamin B12, the bio-available form of which is ONLY found in food that comes from animals, (or in pill form.)
    And who wants to eat some sort of Soylent Green-Purina-inspired “product” rather than good healthy food anyway?
    messianicdruid, humans are biological mammals (animals), period. If you want to argue THAT fact, then I am done even trying with you.
    And uh, asia. DUH.

  376. mika. October 20, 2010 at 9:23 pm #

    Maybe I’m having a very mellow day, but you are making me very nervous – I’m starting to understand and agree with some of what you say, although you still are too paranoid for me. Who knows, maybe tomorrow I won’t think you are paranoid, or maybe I’ll think you are, even more so. Isn’t life grand?
    ==
    A fair comment. I appreciate your condor. As to being nervous, the US might succeed in crashing the Chinese economy, so that might buy US another five to ten years.
    The Great Game: Geopolitics and Oil
    http://goo.gl/pAHi

  377. mika. October 20, 2010 at 9:25 pm #

    ..candor..

  378. wagelaborer October 20, 2010 at 9:35 pm #

    No, Turkle, you were right the first time.
    Marxism, as a core belief, does argue that the means of production should be owned by the people.
    What’s more, as a core belief, it argues that the means of production should also be democratically controlled and operated by the people.
    You were slapped down by the Thought Police, and immediately acquiesced.
    You stated a Forbidden Truth.
    I’m here to back you up. You were right the first time.

  379. progressorconserve October 20, 2010 at 9:40 pm #

    Hey Net,
    I guessed I’d probably hear from one or two “better pet food” advocates.
    Let’s be clear. Wolves evolved to eat raw meat. But they didn’t JUST eat the meat. Wolves eat the fur, the vital organs, the intestines and their contents, the ears, the eyes, and most of the bone marrow of anything they kill – bones, too, if they’re hungry enough.
    As evidence – using coyotes as an example – on many occasions my sons, friends, or I have field dressed a deer deep in the woods. When you do that you remove the carcass and leave any of the *entrails* you do not wish to keep, behind. Go back to the site ONE night later and ALL you will find are the contents of the upper stomach. I’m talking an undigested pile of acorns or leaves on the ground but EVERYTHING else GONE – vanished.
    This didn’t happen UNTIL we got coyotes in our hunting area.
    Dogs are not wolves. They have co-evolved with human society for an unknown (but very long) period of time. During that long period, dogs evolved to eat essentially anything that fell on the ground when humans were hunting, dressing, or cooking game. Which was probably most of the time pre-agriculture.
    Networker, I recall a post where you slaughtered your own cows (I think/hope it was you) and fed your dogs a more natural diet to match their evolution.
    I honestly admire that. Post-collapse, when I have my herd of goats in the mountains I’ll be hoping to emulate it.
    My main point about the Purina Human Chow in a 50 pound sack was a *somewhat?* humorous idea as to why there can’t be a single food source for humans that is convenient, and relatively healthy.
    I wouldn’t eat it all the time any more than I wouldn’t supplement my dog’s feed rations. :-)

  380. wagelaborer October 20, 2010 at 9:51 pm #

    Oh, we don’t worry about overcrowding here!
    Prison construction is big business.
    Where I live, we had 2 prisons in 1980. We now have 14.
    And communities fight for the right to have one in their very own back yard. Jobs (!) you know.
    Private prisons and prison guard unions lobby for more laws, more sentences, more imprisonment, cause there are profits to be made and jobs to be had.
    Lock ‘em up and throw away the key! As long as someone makes some money.

  381. networker October 20, 2010 at 9:58 pm #

    ProCon, I shiver just at the thought of a Purina Human Chow. I field-dress deer myself every year, and I know what you mean. When I said dogs were meant to eat meat, I meant the whole animal, just like wolves. I agree with you that dogs have evolved to eat more than JUST meat, but it doesn’t change their biological need for it, and they are far healthier if they are fed it. I give them table scraps in addition, but never kibble… did you read that link I put up? It is truly horrifying.
    I think you are thinking of the Big Dog Discussion we had that day JKH put up his Witch of Hebron excerpt. I was arguing that his story was ridiculously unlikely since any self-respecting farmer would have dogs (not to mention guns for crying out loud. I mean, Samurai swords? Please.) However, you are remembering it a bit differently: I do not have cows, but I do have chickens and I do hunt deer every year. Between my husband and I, we usually put away at least three deer in the freezer and keep the bones for the dogs. When that runs out, I feed the dogs whatever bones I can get from butchers and coops in the area, along with a local farm that raises beef. But not just beef. They would eat the chickens raw too if I let them. I save those for us though, since I like to make bone broths.
    And I raise mice for my indoor cats :)

  382. wagelaborer October 20, 2010 at 10:03 pm #

    Here is what is happening, E.
    When the ruling class began its attack on the working class, they began with the factory workers, and other high school graduates.
    The college educated were temporarily spared.
    This started the myth of the educated, which continues today.
    Whenever masses of people are laid off, (because as EightM points out in his lucid moments, we have WAY more people than necessary to provide for us all) the incantations from the politicians start, “We must retrain, we must educate” yes, these 50+ year old dropouts must now go back to school and learn a marketable skill.
    As a nurse, I notice that they pick nursing A LOT as the skill people should learn. Why? To lower nursing wages. Duh.
    Anyway, education is now a way to funnel more money to banks (college loans) and colleges (which are starving for state funds).
    So people who no longer have no way to make a living borrow money to go to college, and find out that it isn’t anymore their cup of tea than it was 30 years ago, when they first flunked out and got a blue collar job.
    That’s what you’re seeing.

  383. progressorconserve October 20, 2010 at 10:04 pm #

    Turkle, Vlad, Asia, Mika, Cash (random order) maybe one or two others have had a decent dialog going.
    One or two things bothered me about it, and Wage articulated one.
    ==========
    “Marxism, as a core belief, does argue that the means of production should be owned by the people.
    What’s more, as a core belief, it argues that the means of production should also be democratically controlled and operated by the people.
    You were slapped down by the Thought Police, and immediately acquiesced.”
    ============
    Ladies and gentlemen, there is nothing, NOTHING, that is inherently evil about communism.
    What if the US of A had *won* WWII in the same sense that the Russians *won* it. Won it with 2/3 or our land overrun, something like 80 million!! of our sons and daughters killed, infrastructure destroyed.
    What if we did that and were left with an indefensible flat border into a hostile nation, Canada (oops, I mean Poland) AND a brutal murderous dictator – Stalin.
    Do you think if these roles had been reversed that “American Free Market Capitalism” might not be quite the benign force for good that most of you seem to assume it to be.
    ================
    Cash/Asia – no point in jumping on me. I’m a proud American (United Statesian??) and to some large extent I’m a capitalist. But I have a strong sense for inflection points in history.
    And communism is gone – DEAD – extinct, so the argument should be moot. EXCEPT various political jackasses in the US have conflated Communism, Socialism, minimum wage, and clean streets.
    That’s why we can’t have a dialog about much of anything worthwhile in the US anymore.
    Consider Single Payer Health Care – That’s socialism…oh HELL NO, it’s Communism. Sure it is, Obama’s a communist when he’s not busy being a Muslim!!!!
    Instead we have this free market inspired health care mess that I do believe we’d be better off without.

  384. trippticket October 20, 2010 at 10:05 pm #

    Holy cow. I think you’re going to do fine in the transition…how many mice per cat?

  385. asoka October 20, 2010 at 10:06 pm #

    PC said: “I will refer you to my correction of 8:37 WHICH proceeds your request for a retraction at 8:45, by 8 full minutes. Gotta love that math.”
    Got it! Thanks!
    I do love math… and physics in its modern incarnation.
    I do not bow down to the “laws of physics”, especially Newtonian mechanics, which is at least 60 years out of date and cannot explain things like non-local causation (in entangled photon pairs).
    I am not a true believer in the “we are so fucked because of the laws of physics” cult.

  386. Bustin J October 20, 2010 at 10:13 pm #

    BeanTownBill billeted, “”Man, if I had a time machine, I’d go back to 1982 and bitch-slap that motherfucker.”
    Yeah, and you’d probably be shot before you got within 5 feet of the sucker.”
    You’re right. I’d have to go back before 1982, when security wasn’t as tight.

  387. mika. October 20, 2010 at 10:17 pm #

    And communism is gone – DEAD – extinct, so the argument should be moot.
    ==
    Really. Is that why the same gov mafia from the soviet era is still gov mafia in power today? PC, no one is gone and no one is dead. The only thing that happened is that KGB now goes by different name.

  388. networker October 20, 2010 at 10:18 pm #

    Tripp, the two cats easily eat at least four mice per day but I have found that it isn’t quite enough. Before I started raising the mice I fed them beef and chicken meat from the supermarket, cut up with a vitamin mix (http://rawmeatcatfood.com/) added in to it, so I still supplement with that a little as well. My older cat spent a few years on kibble before I got educated and he really seems to need the vitamin mix. Thankfully the mice have proved to be far cheaper than the supermarket meat, but it is a slow transition.

  389. asoka October 20, 2010 at 10:19 pm #

    PC said: “And communism is gone – DEAD – extinct…”
    This will come as quite a surprise to the Chinese Communist Party which rules China is successfully utilizing capitalism to destroy the USA for communist party ends.
    The realization of communism is the highest ideal and ultimate goal of the Party.
    SOURCE: CONSTITUTION OF THE COMMUNIST PARTY OF CHINA (Amended and adopted at the Seventeenth National Congress of the Communist Party of China on Oct. 21, 2007)
    http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2007-10/25/content_6944738.htm

  390. messianicdruid October 20, 2010 at 10:28 pm #

    “humans are biological mammals (animals), period. If you want to argue THAT fact, then I am done even trying with you.”
    I don’t have a problem with the “mammal” label. It is the legal consequences of abandoning certain “inalienable rights” given to men made in God’s image, which animals do not possess. Rights not claimed are forfeit.
    And, as I said before the results of not having these rights, which must be protected by any lawful government instituted among men, is to allow some men to “farm”, “herd”, “harvest”, “brand” or “cull” other men {or their productivity}.
    “How many times have you heard the people described as “livestock on the global plantation”? We tend to dismiss such descriptions as metaphorical–but maybe there’s more truth to them than most would suspect.”
    Do you believe any man {or men}, to be more qualified, obligated or sanely predisposed to have unlimited dominion over others?
    http://adask.wordpress.com/2008/06/16/man-or-other-animals-laws-1/

  391. Bustin J October 20, 2010 at 10:32 pm #

    Networker strung together these words: “Dogs are meant to eat raw meat. Also for humans, that “complete” protein you get from beans and rice is fine if protein per se is the only requirement you are trying to fulfill. Unfortunately human beings also require other nutrients, in this case specifically vitamin B12, the bio-available form of which is ONLY found in food that comes from animals, (or in pill form.)
    And who wants to eat some sort of Soylent Green-Purina-inspired “product” rather than good healthy food anyway?”
    Most people don’t eat real food. The entire state of Hawaii stands up for Spam.
    B12 comes from friendly bacteria.
    Dogs are generalists. I imagine canines ate all sorts of things. Do wolves lick pee off rocks?

  392. wagelaborer October 20, 2010 at 10:39 pm #

    Ah, Prog, prison labor is indeed alive and well in the USA.
    http://dandelionsalad.wordpress.com/2008/11/28/prison-labor-made-in-usa/
    I was thinking of you tonight. I was at my daughter’s house, and brought up the whole privacy thing with her friends, and they dismissed it as irrelevant. One of her friends said that her Dad criticized Facebook’s lack of privacy and she said that she told him that she didn’t expect any privacy from Facebook.
    The one that go me though, was the daughter of two of my friends, both of whom are very radical and anti-authoritarian. Enough so that they went 14 years without electricity because of an argument with the power company.
    Anyway, I was talking about another friend who returned from Europe and was at O’Hare, waiting for a commuter flight, when she was flagged by TSA and treated like a terrorist. They refused to answer her questions, refused to tell her why she was flagged, and generally acted like assholes.
    I mentioned how stupid it was to flag someone who had just been on a long uneventful flight, waiting for a very short flight, as a “terrorist” risk.
    The daughter of my anarchist friends started defending TSA!!
    “Maybe they thought she just wanted to kill Americans. Maybe they thought she wanted to blow up a plane over the US”
    OMG! I was shocked. Yet another child raising gone awry!

  393. progressorconserve October 20, 2010 at 10:41 pm #

    Last I heard most of the valuable assets in the former USSR we sold of or acquired by various former KGB thugs.
    And Russia is being reshaped into some sort of free market system.
    Maybe the terms don’t matter, Mika. They never had communism in the USSR, not according to the definition in the dictionary. They had rule by political bosses, the KGB, and paranoia.
    If things had broken the wrong way for us after world warII we would have rule by political bosses, the CIA, and paranoia.

  394. networker October 20, 2010 at 10:45 pm #

    BustinJ, when you say “friendly bacteria” no doubt you are referring to the B12 that the body manufactures in the large intestine. Unfortunately it is also NOT bio-available for us in that location, as it is already past the stage of the small intestine where we absorb such things. Human beings REQUIRE vitamin B12 in the diet, and for it to bio-available to us in the correct form, it MUST come from animals. This is why vegetarians take it in pill form.
    I don’t know for sure whether wolves lick pee off of rocks, but I would imagine since they are canines it is likely. Dogs are clearly known to be descended from wolves, so why bother trying to argue that they don’t require meat?
    Messianicdruid, you are rambling. I never said anything about abandoning principles of human rights or any such thing. What ARE you trying to argue? If you want to argue with yourself that’s fine I suppose, but the stuff you are saying bears no relation to what I was saying.

  395. progressorconserve October 20, 2010 at 10:47 pm #

    A, you say:
    PC said: “And communism is gone – DEAD – extinct…”
    This will come as quite a surprise to the Chinese Communist Party
    I think the Chinese will be more cutthroat capitalist than we are in a decade or so. Plus, they already have the delightful traditions of starving their people and murdering their dissidents – dude, they are way ahead even of our own Chamber of Commerce!
    Beyond that, I’ll refer you to Mika and let the two of you thrash out this issue.
    Looks like deck chairs on the Titanic to me.

  396. asoka October 20, 2010 at 10:47 pm #

    Networker said: “Unfortunately human beings also require other nutrients, in this case specifically vitamin B12, the bio-available form of which is ONLY found in food that comes from animals, (or in pill form.)”
    Not unfortunate at all. It does not require KILLING animals to get vitamin B12.

    Streptomyces griseus, a bacterium once thought to be a yeast, was the commercial source of vitamin B12 for many years. The bacteria Propionibacterium shermanii and Pseudomonas denitrificans have now replaced S. griseus. At least one company, Rhone Poulenc Biochimie of France, is using a genetically engineered microorganism to produce B12.

    Linnell JC, Matthews DM. Cobalamin metabolism and its clinical aspects. Clin Sci (Lond). 1984 Feb;66(2):113-21.
    De Baets S, Vandedrinck S, Vandamme EJ. Vitamins and Related Biofactors, Microbial Production. In: Lederberg J, ed. Encyclopedia of Microbiology, Vol 4, 2nd Ed. New York: Academic Press; 2000:837-853.

  397. networker October 20, 2010 at 10:54 pm #

    Asoka, go asoka your head. Your vegetarian diet that requires industrial ag just to keep your grocery store full, kills thousands of small animals every time they till, spray, and harvest. You have clearly never once provided food for yourself, so take your sanctimony and shove it where the B12 is made.

  398. Bustin J October 20, 2010 at 10:59 pm #

    All the bad corporations are doing today are the basis for innovation tomorrow. McDonald’s figured out how to sell unreal food.
    But gubmint Nutrition councils have been pressuring it more and more to provide the healthy alternative. The trend will follow like this:
    THE INTRODUCTION OF FUNGAL/ALGAL FOODS
    (AT MCDONALD’S)
    (BEGINNING IN 2011)
    1. You get crap.
    2. You get slightly healthier crap.
    3. You get a choice: crap OR a real, healthy alternative (which is expensive and unprofitable).
    4. You get a choice: two kinds of crap, one is healthy but expensive (non-real) and one is not healthy but cheap (real).
    5. You get a choice: two kinds of crap, one is healthy (non-real) and one is not healthy (real) and both are about the same price.
    6. You get a choice: two kinds of crap, one is healthy and becomes PROGRESSIVELY CHEAPER(non-real) and one is not healthy and becomes PROGRESSIVELY MORE EXPENSIVE (real).
    ~NIRVANA~ (2024-206?)
    7. You don’t have a choice because McDonald’s stops carrying any real, less healthy food. The bonus is that the food looks, feels, tastes, and smells just like it did when Ray Croc pulled the first Big Mac out of the deep-fryer.
    ~RAVE NEW WORLD~ (206?->)
    Life under the plexidomes continues as the delicious alliance between Homo Sapiens and Bacteria flowers… Women lose weight by eating (with surprisingly little diarrhea)… Pets are humanity’s test subjects, being weaned on to fake food first… by this process we help save the Earth’s natural resources and wildlife.

  399. networker October 20, 2010 at 11:02 pm #

    BustinJ, too bad it takes a factory (and all the energy inherent) to make a Twinkie :)

  400. asoka October 20, 2010 at 11:03 pm #

    Comrade Wage said: “Marxism, as a core belief, does argue that the means of production should be owned by the people.”
    We can go to the source on this one. In the “Communist Manifesto” Marx and Engels propose the immediate imposition of a dictatorship of the proletariat. Like Bakunin, I have no idea what that actually means, but I know it causes me to have second thoughts. At any rate, the dictatorship’s program includes such items as the following:

    The proletariat will use its political supremacy to wrest all capital from the bourgeoisie, to centralise all instruments of production in the hands of the State, i.e. of the proletariat organised as the ruling class; and to increase the total of productive forces as rapidly as possible. . .
    [We propose] centralisation of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly. . . .
    Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State. . . .
    Equal liability of all to labor. Establishment of industrial armies, particularly for agriculture.

    Comrade Wage, once you have given the State a complete monopoly on communication, transport, and capital, you should anticipate being its victim.
    And only a quibbler could possibly hold that such proposals are not totalitarian. Nod along to forced labor for class enemies, give the state complete control of all production and all communication, throwing in transportation, banking, and education, and you have the very paradigm of a totalitarian state. the explicit guidelines of the Marxist nightmares that devoured the twentieth century.
    SOURCE: Manifesto of the Communist Party, 1848.
    http://www.anu.edu.au/polsci/marx/classics/manifesto.html

  401. progressorconserve October 20, 2010 at 11:18 pm #

    WAGE,
    Yeah, the way *most* of us acquiesce to the TSA is amazing. And I’m not talking about just when you’re standing right in front of them just trying to get on a plane without a strip search.
    I don’t know if it is something about *our* child-rearing, or TV, or Regan/Bush paranoia, or Fruit Loop consumption – we’ll have to think about that one.
    ==========
    Interesting link about prison labor. Was the figure I heard of “90 thousand” prison workers correct. That seems low considering how many folks we have in prisons.
    You and I may disagree on some of these issues. I think as long as conditions are humane that prison labor should be used. It is WRONG if if competes with civilian labor.
    It is WRONG if we are stuffing prisons fuller and fuller and HORRIBLE if we’re delaying paroles and releases just for the cheap/free labor.
    Beyond that, though, it’s better to work at something than to sit around, watch TV, play basketball, and lift weights – and honestly, that’s all I’ve ever seen occurring on those few occasions where I’ve visited a prison.
    I’d very much like the old prison farms back, run humanly. Agriculture is a useful skill – most all the food could go to the prison or other state institutions – so Monsanto couldn’t moan about the competition too badly.
    And was that REALLY asoka who just responded to you as Comrade Wage? Sure could have been Vlad.
    Best Regards, Wage. ‘Night!

  402. asoka October 20, 2010 at 11:35 pm #

    networker assumed, again incorrectly: “You have clearly never once provided food for yourself, so take your sanctimony and shove it where the B12 is made.”
    LOL! Hard for you to face the truth, isn’t it?
    If you are not afraid to face REALITY, check out this three minute video by my friend and nutrition mentor, Dick Gregory:

    The video cannot be shown at the moment. Please try again later.

    And support PETA. Love animals, don’t eat them.

  403. networker October 20, 2010 at 11:46 pm #

    Asoka, exactly what reality is it that I am not facing? I have Dick Gregory’s Natural Diet for Folks Who Eat (or something like that) and I read it back in the seventies. I still think it’s bunk. Human beings are not cows, nor should they eat like one.

  404. networker October 20, 2010 at 11:48 pm #

    And before Asoka gets a chance to post yet another senseless, absurd post, I must say good night all!

  405. Bustin J October 20, 2010 at 11:50 pm #

    Networker raved till the morning light, “BustinJ, when you say “friendly bacteria” no doubt you are referring to the B12 that the body manufactures in the large intestine. Unfortunately it is also NOT bio-available for us in that location, as it is already past the stage of the small intestine where we absorb such things. Human beings REQUIRE vitamin B12 in the diet, and for it to bio-available to us in the correct form, it MUST come from animals. This is why vegetarians take it in pill form.”
    B12 can come directly from bacteria. In fact, that was how the animals got it.
    Looking over Wikipedia’s entry:
    “Due to the extremely efficient enterohepatic circulation of B12, the liver can store several years’ worth of vitamin B12; therefore, nutritional deficiency of this vitamin is rare.”
    And,
    “The total amount of vitamin B12 stored in body is about 2–5 mg in adults. Around 50% of this is stored in the liver. Approximately 0.1% of this is lost per day by secretions into the gut, as not all these secretions are reabsorbed.”
    So that means that 0.020-0.050mg must be taken up by the system each day.
    That means 20-50 micrograms per dose, per day.
    “B12 taken in a low-solubility, non-chewable supplement pill form may bypass the mouth and stomach and not mix with gastric acids, but these are not necessary for the absorption of free B12 not bound to protein.”
    In other words, a 1mg pill gives you about a month’s dose of B12. Without animals. Dissolving under your tongue. In Strawberry Beef Flavor.
    In other words, we have no reason or urgent need to get it from animals.
    Carnivorism is a choice. The difference between man and animal.

  406. asoka October 21, 2010 at 12:12 am #

    PC said: “And was that REALLY asoka who just responded to you as Comrade Wage?”
    Yes. I have this idea that in communism the power rests with the people (in mutual cooperation communes) and in socialism (Marxism) the power is centralized in the STATE.
    I am anti-socialist, anti-Marxist, and pro-“communism with pacifism” (as Jesus taught communism).
    I am opposed to killing people for any “ism.”
    I am opposed to killing animals for personal survival.
    My current experiments with fasting are going really well. I was inspired by reading the book, DICK GREGORY’S NATURAL DIET FOR FOLKS WHO EAT: COOKIN’ WITH MOTHER NATURE!
    Brother Gregory announced a vow of celibacy in 1981.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/14/theater/14greg.html

  407. Bustin J October 21, 2010 at 12:13 am #

    Networker blushed, “BustinJ, too bad it takes a factory (and all the energy inherent) to make a Twinkie :)”
    Too bad for the suckers who eat them, I suppose. But wait!
    “Hostess Brands is committed to implementing sustainable business practices that will benefit our company, our consumers, our customers, our employees and our environment.”
    Whew. Now we know.
    “Hostess Brands does not advertise to children under the age of 12 unless the products meet a strict set of “better for you” product standards, as defined by the USDA’s “Healthier US School Challenge”. These standards include limitations on calories, fats and sugars.”
    See? Hostess is a moral, ethical company. And Twinkies are for adults and kidults.
    “Hostess Brands operates 20 wastewater pre-treatment facilities in 11 states. Much of the water purchased by the Company in recent time was treated and returned to local sewer facilities for reuse. We are reviewing water consumption at our plants in order to develop a “best practices” program to help each plant to continue to reduce water usage and related costs.”
    See? Hostess purchases filthy water and then takes the filth out of it. Why? It does not say.
    “26 days: The shelf life of a Twinkie”
    “500 million: The number of Twinkies baked each year.”

  408. asoka October 21, 2010 at 12:30 am #

    “26 days: The shelf life of a Twinkie”
    “500 million: The number of Twinkies baked each year.”
    Now THAT is a surrealist vista!

  409. asoka October 21, 2010 at 12:31 am #

    LOL! Good night, networker. Sleep tight. Don’t let the bedbugs bite.

  410. Eleuthero October 21, 2010 at 3:01 am #

    Tripp,
    I liked your quote that “the physics of
    contraction” are different than the
    “physics of expansion”.
    There is a WORLDWIDE denial of the
    IMPOSSIBILITY of growth in the coming
    Malthusian epoch of nine billion people.
    The entire financial services industry
    exists to promote the growth CON JOB.
    Since this industry is closing in on being
    a third of the entire economy, you know
    they aren’t going down with a whimper but
    with a bang.
    PLANNED CONTRACTION is the only policy that
    contains wisdom but, as has always been the
    case in human history, no one will buy it
    until there is “blood in the streets”.
    E.

  411. Eleuthero October 21, 2010 at 3:12 am #

    You’re right, Vlad … the Founders intended
    for America to be a REPUBLIC and not a
    DEMOCRACY. Indeed, a democracy tends to
    result in a society that placates and
    appeals to the commoner and not the
    best thinkers and innovators or the noblest
    characters. This is especially true in a
    meme-driven, media-created era like this one.
    If the Founders wanted us to be a democracy
    then we wouldn’t have REPRESENTATIVES who
    represent, as they would in a healthy
    meritocracy, our “greater angels”. Indeed,
    the problem in public life now is that there’s
    no meritocracy at all … only a KLEPTOCRACY
    where those who have stolen the most win
    because they have the scratch to control
    the media.
    I also disagree with Turkle about Socialism.
    It looks great on paper but it is a Ponzi
    scheme that starts imploding when birthrates,
    retirees, and debts increase and resources
    decrease. In a scant few years, you’re going
    to see many emerging problems in Europe such
    as the wholesale caving-in of national pension
    plans, more and more street riots and even more
    day-to-day street brawls and incivilities.
    E.

  412. Eleuthero October 21, 2010 at 3:16 am #

    So neoliberalism is really just GLOBALISM
    WITH A FANCY LABEL??
    Thanks for correcting me, LBendet. Language
    is so Orwellian these days that nothing means
    what its etymological roots indicate it should
    mean.
    Neoliberalism is neither “neo” nor “liberal”
    since it is the driving force pitting the
    worlds workers against each other while the
    CEO class gets Socialist protections and
    immunity from job offshoring.
    E.

  413. eightm October 21, 2010 at 4:37 am #

    1. We don’t kill Time, Time kills us.
    2. I asked for more Time from Time, but Time ran out of Time.
    3. Life is like playing a game of chess against GOD, you won’t win.
    4. Our minds are always wrong.

  414. Alexandra October 21, 2010 at 6:50 am #

    Plan B?
    I think what came out of ASPO clearly this month for me in D.C was plan M…
    Read it here:
    http://www.energybulletin.net/stories/2010-10-19/surprise-i%E2%80%99m-your-new-president-life-post-peak-military-coup-beyond
    And it explains nicely the complete lack of action under way across most of the OECD’s faux democracies – all up against the wall as early as 2015 – because the new elephant fields awaiting find just ain’t there folks, even if they were, you’d still have to dial in the long wait for the uber-sweet-crude to start flowing…and then most likley the Chinese would nail it all anyways.
    No… a nice militaristic pomp-n-circumstance future will work well indeed for the terror frightened sheeple masses….and a ban and confiscation of all non-consequential greedy folks financial and food horde assets will come too…
    (For the orwellian controlled collective greater good of course)
    Perhaps once more the beauties and young female flesh rounded up and herded will again service the new general class elites, and breed strong Mark Anthony types for future iron-fist stewardship?
    ‘Back to the future’ was always the most apt of phrases – cos human nature remains mainly basic low-grade reptilian – and always at heart has.
    Once you fully digest this fact you can most certainly plan around that ‘given’….
    I dare say those ancient Greek aesthetes/academics thought themselves spear-proof too, until the unwashed muscled hordes overran them fully, and then the more savvy ones twigged all was really lost…
    Though tis only ever just a cycle, we’re fully into late autumn now…. and a new dawn spring is a very, very long way off….
    (So forage and hide well CFK’ers all)
    The winer of discontent is only a few crisis triggers away…

  415. lbendet October 21, 2010 at 8:42 am #

    Well put, E.
    That is a perfect definition of Neoliberalism. I think the problem with Europe is that they went along with the Ponzi scheme and will now have to pay back the piper with the public monies as they are trying to do with us.
    The point is that they may not have run out of money and or they would have had to build their pension funds in different ways.
    You really should read Naomi Klein “Shock Doctrine” it will sicken you. JHK asks why nobody in academia stands up and tells the truth. Well when Harvard professors make 300% on Russia’s natural resources, you really can’t expect them to say anything, can you? Jeffrey Sachs was the only one with a conscience during her interview with him.
    A friend of mine has done some translations for the UN. He says that Kissinger wrote to a German finance minister (I don’t know when) That We never should have done what we did to Russia.
    Imagine if we still had the philosophy we did when we built the economies of Europe through the Marshall Plan.

  416. mila59 October 21, 2010 at 9:20 am #

    Cool. I’m too squeamish to do the mouse thing, but it’s a great idea. My cat goes outside and kills mice. We never seem to have a mouse problem in the house, either :)
    I thought the squire in JHK’s Witch of Hebron was a little silly, too — that he would surely have a gun next to the bed — the swords are clearly a JHK fantasy (like the nubile and/or mystical women) — still a good story — I didn’t think of the dogs at the farm — of course he would have dogs for alarm reasons. Or even just guards posted at night. Those guys would NEVER have gotten into the house that way.

  417. mila59 October 21, 2010 at 9:22 am #