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Nowhere to Run, Nowhere to Hide

  I landed back in the USA Wednesday from Sweden. What a downer to be reminded that more people speak English in the foreign country you just came from, and to notice what a slum airport New York’s JFK is. “Wretched refuse yearning to be free,” the poem at the statue of liberty’s base declares. How prophetic. Nobody in baggage claim understood the sentence, “Which carousel does the luggage from BA 4872 come to?” Quien sabe? Vem vet? Kim bilar? ???? ????? ??????
     The Europeans, by necessity, may excel at learning languages, but at banking and money matters they are perhaps not such geniuses – no matter how creamy the shopgirls are – and in the politics of the region things often devolve to the level of a lethal pie-fight. Now that Germany and France rolled out the latest provisional miracle rescue of their countries’ banks, jubilation reigned in the stock markets and the OECD economy is presumably back to turbo hyper warp speed.
     Expect this spirit of euphoria to expire by mid-week. The bankers of the western world and their government helpers have seemingly never heard of unintended consequences, or maybe even consequences, period. The crypto-voluntary bond default of Greece, with 50 percent losses to bond-holders, did not trigger a credit default swap (CDS) “event.” Why? Because it is perfectly obvious to all concerned that the CDS market is a grand fraud, so the triggerers are told not to pull any triggers, and it’s as simple as that. If CDS were actually allowed to operate as an “insurance” mechanism against dodgy bonds the entire global banking system would go Death Star. Counterparties to these debts could not possibly pay out what the contracts require. So, if CDS are magically “suspended” on Greece’s default then they will be suspended for everybody’s.
     I don’t think it matters so much that the CDS market itself is rendered meaningless, because the counterparties hardly put up any real money in the first place, just promises to come up with money at some future date. What matters more is that there really are no hedges on bonds, no real protection if any bonds flop, which means risk has instantly rematerialized in the bond markets and has to be priced back in to bond sales. Unfortunately, that in itself can easily collapse the global financial system, because if investors really require higher interest rates to buy this stuff, the governments issuing the bonds will all choke to death on the interest payments.
     It will be interesting to see how the so-called advanced economies wriggle out of this dilemma. There may be yet some other ways of extending and pretending, but I don’t see it. Rather, it would seem to open the door to universal default. The very next part of the official story is that, supposedly, every investor on God’s green earth would come stampeding into American bonds, but where’s the hedge now? There is none. Massive European defaults would winnow down the total liquidity supply anyway, and going into US treasuries would be like the remaining victims of a “towering inferno” style conflagration rushing from one burning floor to another. And how much of that hot money has already rushed into mis-priced American stock markets? All the rest of it? One of these days, there will be no buyers showing up for that stuff, and even the HFT robots will develop a sense of artificial trepidation.
     Meanwhile, more than a few banks find that they are catastrophically short of real funds. They can’t actually continue the daily churn that constitutes their hypothetical business. Interbank lending would tend to freeze. Suddenly, we are right back at the edge of the same abyss that opened up when Lehman Brothers went up in a vapor three years ago. Only this time it’s Lehman Brothers times X.
     There are really only two outcomes I can see in all this. Either money becomes extremely scarce or the money that’s there becomes worthless. In either case you’re broke, and what remains for all these nations is a fight over the table-scraps of the late and great industrial orgy.
     I know a lot of people think that technology will save us from all this. The story line there is that we’ll all be “connected.” We’ll all network up over the smart-phone and “communicate” and “share” and “innovate.” Connection has become a pointless end in itself. It’s what you do when the world is collapsing around you. Wouldn’t it make more sense to learn how to grow potatoes and train a mule?
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About James Howard Kunstler

View all posts by James Howard Kunstler
James Howard Kunstler is the author of many books including (non-fiction) The Geography of Nowhere, The City in Mind: Notes on the Urban Condition, Home from Nowhere, The Long Emergency, and Too Much Magic: Wishful Thinking, Technology and the Fate of the Nation. His novels include World Made By Hand, The Witch of Hebron, Maggie Darling — A Modern Romance, The Halloween Ball, an Embarrassment of Riches, and many others. He has published three novellas with Water Street Press: Manhattan Gothic, A Christmas Orphan, and The Flight of Mehetabel.

867 Responses to “Nowhere to Run, Nowhere to Hide” Subscribe

  1. TrE October 31, 2011 at 9:39 am #

    Morning, Jim. Great to see that Liam Halligan at The Telegraph and other big finance journalists have all finally caught up with you. You’ve helped me prepare for the times ahead in concrete (no, not paranoid) ways: By paying off debt, by giving away and selling unnecessary junk, by learning to thrive on about $10 a day (going vegan’s the most practical choice we can make for our health, for the planet, for animals, and for this new reality), and by deepening the lasting, satisfying, and TV-free relationships with friends, family, and neighbors we’re fortunate to enjoy. The coming reality will only be as ugly as we allow it to be; those of us who’re learning to settle down, settle in, love living with less, and who plan to avoid any broader social unrest may very well actually find ourselves happier than we’ve ever been before. Happy World Vegan Day!

  2. anticapitalistcharley October 31, 2011 at 9:39 am #

    James, society is amiss on many things, but perhaps a positive is that its been 50 years since the tsar bomba
    https://subversesjournal.wordpress.com/

  3. Cabra1080 October 31, 2011 at 9:39 am #

    First!

  4. Cabra1080 October 31, 2011 at 9:39 am #

    OK, third…

  5. Solar Guy October 31, 2011 at 9:42 am #

    What pecentage of Americans have a clue… Everyone I meet thinks our future will be the same as the past…

  6. Gingerfox October 31, 2011 at 9:42 am #

    Jim. Looking at the BBC news website, the spirit of euphoria has gone by Monday lunchtime. A trillion only covers a day or so now

  7. empirestatebuilding October 31, 2011 at 10:09 am #

    And MF Global is collapsing as we speak. And what is left of the Madoff family is parading around on TV like the Real Housewives of Ponzi Street.
    I am so weary of crummy news. Bring on the Holiday Shopping season. I want a zebra print Snuggy and a Scooby Doo Chia Pet.
    Aimlow Joe was here.
    http://www.aimlow.com

  8. lbendet October 31, 2011 at 10:09 am #

    What’s the worst thing that can happen to Obama between now and the election?
    Thanks for the insightful post again today, JHK.
    At the expense of repeating myself from two weeks ago, I will reiterate an interview I heard on MSNBC. If only I could remember who was being interviewed!
    The question posed was answered: Obama might have to bail out the TBTF banks again.
    As if the many $Trillions were not already given over to the international banking system already…and where did it get us?–Oh yeah, no regulations and no Glass Steagall…Hey let’s be the wild wild west of the financial world and the Europeans sure stepped into that one.
    With no quid pro quo on lending, helping with other Obama agendas like job creation and keeping the stimulus package money in the US only, we are back to only thing this economy can do–blow more bubbles.
    They should all take a good look at Iceland and follow suit.
    This next time around should be a doozie! Say goodbye to social safety nets.

  9. horseoutside October 31, 2011 at 10:11 am #

    CLUSTERFUCK DAY could well be Friday 11/11/11.
    You have been warned.

  10. zen17 October 31, 2011 at 10:11 am #

    time to get our own house in order
    heathy body
    clear mind
    http://wanderingsagewisdom.blogspot.com

  11. Jack Waddington October 31, 2011 at 10:15 am #

    so !!!!!! Money might out of style anyway … yippee.
    Jack

  12. Al Klein October 31, 2011 at 10:22 am #

    It’s the morning after the night before. Now we get to discover what that beauty you met at the bar really looks like. So it goes with thje so-called economy.

  13. vermonter October 31, 2011 at 10:23 am #

    “…those of us who’re learning to settle down, settle in, love living with less, and who plan to avoid any broader social unrest…”
    Good luck with that.

  14. ozone October 31, 2011 at 10:29 am #

    Nice one, Mr. Jim!
    POW, right in the kisser…
    Reality can be not-so-nice; especially to a “culture” steeped in bullshittery (tm MyrtleMay) and commercial enterprise. Mmmmm, let’s just call it fraud and be done wid’dit.
    (I must agree with the first poster; your writings have helped me to “get my mind right” and live more simply, just to begin with.)

  15. PRD October 31, 2011 at 10:32 am #

    SO… those of us with $100 bills stuffed in buried coffee cans should dig them up and start spending that soon-to-be-worthless paper on some useful things (Large quantities of toilet paper, condoms, liquor, narcotics)? Or wait until deflation makes it all less expensive?

  16. ozone October 31, 2011 at 10:37 am #

    What I posted this morn’ to the last thread, goes to your vision of economic legerdemain… Hey, they’re “fixing” everything! Isn’t that being widely “communicated”? Fer goo’ness sake; get your investment-vehicles invested now, before there’s nothing left to invest in, Investors.
    *****************
    Mr. Orlov has [quite humbly] revised his prognostication of collapse mode. (Not “if”, but “how”.)
    It’s a lot worse than he originally envisioned. Unfortunately, it reinforces my innate paranoia that’s it’s all a nefarious plan and plot. This is how “They” want it; not a controlled and well-considered contraction, but sudden, irreversible collapse that will ensure lots of folks dying/getting killed. With all the extending and pretending going on, how can I “rationally” think that we aren’t being purposefully bullshitted? And to what ends; who benefits?
    Happy Halloween! (Have them cute little trick-or-treaters use the snow shovel you’ve conveniently left at the end of the walk to shovel their way to your doorstep. C’mon, they’re young, it won’t hurt ‘em to work for that candy. 20 inches of wet snow will be easy labor if they work in shifts. ;o)

  17. Bludawg October 31, 2011 at 10:50 am #

    Technology will save us….even I was hoping for a little bit. There is a wind farm about 5 miles from my home. I had hoped that with all the smart people living in the area, maybe they can keep them turning and keep our lights on. A representative from the wind farm was at a dinner meeting I attended last week and he explained how they use a lot of oil…..at the top. Maybe that’s not going to work out so well after all.
    Oh well, our young hens have picked up the pace on laying and we got two more tomatoes from the garden. Probably the last two for the year.
    Everybody take care.

  18. noel bodie October 31, 2011 at 10:50 am #

    Farm ground in these parts at 7-10k per acre seems to be the new “hedge”. Just brought in the cushaw squash, 30# of pure eating dee-light, sweet or savory, pie like to die for.

  19. Smokyjoe October 31, 2011 at 10:55 am #

    “CLUSTERFUCK DAY could well be Friday 11/11/11″
    Nonsense. That day is officially Nigel Tufnel Day: http://nigeltufnelday.tumblr.com/
    I don’t think Sp?n?al Tap did a cover of “Nowhere to Run, Nowhere to Hide,” did they?
    Bring on the “creamy shopgirls” of Sweden! Our doofus-American shops have land-whales or Bettie-Page wannabes “painted like cannibals,” if I may use a Kunstlerism.
    I’m ready to move right now. Jim, you should have claimed diplomatic asylum and stayed put.

  20. Newfie October 31, 2011 at 10:57 am #

    I was hoping to hear some more about the Swedish super models…

  21. charliefoxtrot October 31, 2011 at 11:00 am #

    zone, i for one think you re right, but i believe it is a function of “they” have a tiger by the tail which was a cute little kitty just a century ago: and hanging onto that tail is the safest place to be, all the way up to the point “they” get whip-cracked around into “our” mouth…so you can see why the reluctance to try to have a dialog at this late date…? and as for the kids & the candy, how can you possibly make them work commensurate with the reward?! wherever will our next generation of investment banksters come from?! (tongue FIRMLY in cheek!)

  22. ozone October 31, 2011 at 11:00 am #

    …I’m sure there’s “an app for that”. (At the very least, a big bagful of websites.) ;o)

  23. newworld October 31, 2011 at 11:01 am #

    Funny how Peak Oil has become a financial event. There is so much opportunity in this that it boggles the mind. All the old paradigms are nearly kaput that I dont even think Uzbekistan like despotism can stave off the complete collapse of Materialism.

  24. Wolfbay October 31, 2011 at 11:04 am #

    A little off subject but just got stopped by the Homeland Gestapo while fishing in my little boat.I thought a police state was coming but now realize it’s already arrived.Came across my stern and almost cut my lines.Came along side and two of the four men in black boarded without hailing my vessel or even flashing lights.They didn’t ask permission to board or search the cabin. they stayed on board for over half an hour and we were definitely guilty until proven innocent.Their boat had 4. 250 hp engines and burns 100 gallons of gas an hour.
    Theyreally showed me. I’m 62 and my record consists of 2 speeding tickets over those years. Nice going Homeland security. The terrorists have definitely won.

  25. ozone October 31, 2011 at 11:06 am #

    Ahhhhh. I get you.
    By mistake, the last “best option” available, eh?
    A bit dangerous to be having a “dialogue” with those who’d like to have you for lunch? …Literally.
    (LOL on the future bankers; good one!)

  26. ozone October 31, 2011 at 11:11 am #

    Not funny; not co-incidental.
    Read your Orlov, Kunstler, and Ruppert.
    Get wid da program… faster.

  27. mow October 31, 2011 at 11:17 am #

    lots of ” communicating ” went on during the 1930’s .
    ” Brother can you spare a dime ? ”
    lol

  28. Fissile October 31, 2011 at 11:26 am #

    JFK, the “slum airport” is owned and operated by the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, a bi-state agency. The PA operates Kennedy, Laguardia, Newark and Teterboro airports. In addition it operates the PATH trains, Lincoln and Holland tunnels and the George Washington Bridge among others. The PA takes in BILLIONS of dollars a year in tolls and landing fees. You would think they could construct and maintain a world class airport, but no….for two reasons: The PA is run like something out of a third world country. Most of the PA’s revenue is spent on salaries of PA employees and not capital improvement projects. Example: The PA has its own police force. PA cops are some of the highest paid law enforcement agents in the US. It’s common for PA cops to retire in their forties with 6 figure pensions. Second, the 1% don’t use Kennedy, Newark or Laguardia. Those airports are for the cattle. The 1% are flow into the NYC area on private jets to Teterboro airport just across the Hudson in New Jersey where they transfer to armor plated limos or helicopters for the final leg into Manhattan. Teterboro is operated with public funds as private airport for the rich and important. So what incentive does the PA have to spruce up Kennedy?

  29. charliefoxtrot October 31, 2011 at 11:27 am #

    well, not quite by mistake so much as got greedy and held on past the point of no return…i mean just because everyone was doing it (j pierpont, vanderbilt, et al) didn t mean that a rational assessment of the factors involved (finite resources, inevitable awareness of & by the masses/slaves) wouldn t have provided warning; greed for the sake of instant gratification seems to be a powerful blinder…

  30. ccm989 October 31, 2011 at 11:32 am #

    Its pretty dismal to think of the entire world as broke and broken. If Europe’s banks fall, I don’t see the US having the stomach to bail them out. We’ve already bailed out our own TBTF banks and then seen the CEOs all reward themselves with billions in bonuses (of our money for their failure). Sickening. So what to do about Europe? More importantly, should we do anything about Europe? Will trading goods and services become more popular than plain old cash? Will all our investments, houses, savings, insurance policies suddenly become worthless overnight? Millions of Americans saw their investments plunge in 2008 with fall-out that has resulted in foreclosed homes, high unemployment and the Occupy Wall Street kids marching endlessly in protest.
    Some seem to think if we can just cut enough “social” services, we can get the debt under control. But which social services get hit – Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid, public schools, park systems, infrastructure, the military, the police, defense contracting, FEMA? Do we really want to give up any of those things? I know I don’t. Some seem to think if we just raise taxes on the top 1% (the ones whose revenues increased 275% over the last 30 years according to a recent Wall Street Journal article), we could pay down the debt. I certainly have no problem with that idea but can we get our paid-off Congress to go along with that? Tax the rich an additional ½ of 1% and re-invest the money in our country? Doesn’t seem likely unless a whole lot of Tea Party phonies go down in 2012. Then we could put every corporation on trial and if the jury found them guilty, put them in jail, re-organize their companies and put Americans back to work. That wouldn’t be socialism, that would actually be justice.
    Are we smart enough to survive these times? Or are we just future peasants who will scrape out a living tilling the soil with primitive hand tools while waiting for some bigger nasty to take everything away from us? Cooperative farming v. hordes of thieves, rapists and murderers. Looks like our choice is to either fight common criminals or corporate criminals if we wish to survive in the future.

  31. ctemple October 31, 2011 at 11:32 am #

    Maybe training a mule would be easier than retraining the people who gave us the ‘global economy’ and mortgage backed securities. I didn’t realize that Gordon Gekko was a real person until the last three or four years.

  32. Smokyjoe October 31, 2011 at 11:45 am #

    I’ve noticed more and more in recent years how you don’t really see the “business elite” that much in airports any longer. I keep looking for them. I even try to look like them because for some stupid reason I like to dress up as European travelers often do.
    What do I see in airports? Either harried Dilberts in bad suits or those JHK labels as thugs.
    Depressing on two counts: the romance of air travel is long gone and the elegant people are those 1% of travelers on those private planes and armored helicopters.

  33. Jerry Anderson October 31, 2011 at 11:47 am #

    As you’ve said before, were at peak delusion….with a touch of Bi-Polar….on medication… so no ups and downs just and infinite sideways….

  34. bossier22 October 31, 2011 at 12:01 pm #

    The complete100 percent will have to make some sacrifice to help make things better. Right now 100 percent do not want anything in their piece of the pie to change. But it is coming whether we want it or not. It will go better if everyone accepts a cut.

  35. tpverde October 31, 2011 at 12:02 pm #

    So thoroughly happy to have settled in an agricultural area in Costa Rica. Things are far from perfect, but we never freeze, plenty of water and the neighbors never forgot to grow food, raise livestock and kick back at times.
    Still looking for a few good men, women, families and friends…
    http://www.puebloverde.org

  36. wagelaborer October 31, 2011 at 12:04 pm #

    Why don’t you ask Wolfbay if he thinks that cutting Homeland Security and FEMA is a bad idea?
    The military and defense contractors? Social services? Are you f….ing kidding me? They are the insurance that the 1% is paying for to protect them from us. As Jay Gould said, “I can hire one half of the working class to kill the other half”. Nothing has changed, except for the firepower.
    Of course we can’t pay down the debt. The 1% have put the rest of us into stratoscopic debt bondage. It is unpayable.
    Therefore, we do a Nixon, and declare that the US is no longer on the bank standard.
    The US government issues greenbacks to pay for necessary public workers, and gives an income floor to the rest of Americans, enabling us to have enough to live a modest lifestyle.
    Any entrepeneurs then have the ability to use the magic of the marketplace to invent and innovate, while the rest of us muddle along in a poor, but happy state.
    We are stricken by no plague of locusts, as FDR said. We are stricken by zombie bankers, and continuing to live within their frame will lead to the kind of breakdown and misery suffered by so many other people on this planet in the last 30 years especially.

  37. DrDoomfromPentagon October 31, 2011 at 12:12 pm #

    “if investors really require higher interest rates to buy this stuff, the governments issuing the bonds will all choke to death on the interest payments” – and on Friday Italy paid higher interest on its new bonds than before the “solution” was arrived at.
    Critical thinking is dangerous, that is why it is no longer taught in our schools – just pass the test kids.

  38. Cavepainter October 31, 2011 at 12:13 pm #

    As fake as the money scene is it is no more fake than the label “developing nation”. The so called aren’t developing at all, but simply manifesting the consequence of imbalance between population and sustainable resources. The whole notion that the overpopulated countries would “develop” was fueled by the same illogical presumptions that has been propping up the funny money global economy. It’s all BS, just as is the dreamy notion that the now seven billion people can all coalesce into one harmony of humanity, willingly redistributing across the planet to form a “leveling”, all becoming fed, sheltered and clothed without cultural/political clash over notions of class, religion, ethnicity, religious beliefs, etc., etc. America’s chance for reaching sustainability is being crushed by continuing immigration from Third World nations and the high birth rate among them.

  39. ront October 31, 2011 at 12:13 pm #

    “So what incentive does the PA have to spruce up Kennedy?”
    This is probably a rhetorical question, BUT
    how about those long, lost values of self-esteem, the exercise of competence, honor, empathy, generosity, beauty and cleanliness for its own sake.

  40. dale October 31, 2011 at 12:17 pm #

    Gasoline usage plummeted -9.2% YoY, at 8501 M gallons vs. 9358 M a year ago.
    ——————————————
    This is a big decline, the largest in at least 4 years. Could be just a blip, or it could be an indication that people are permanently changing their consumption pattern.
    In either case, I’ve tried to make the point here a few times that gasoline consumption can be much more elastic than many who champion the PO model are willing to entertain. This might be an indication this is happening….it could also mean we are moving into a recession…or it could mean a one week number of limited value. That’s economics, just watch the trend, don’t jump on any bandwagons.

  41. dale October 31, 2011 at 12:18 pm #

    I’m assuming you are not the Dr. Doom of Hawaii…??

  42. WestCoast October 31, 2011 at 12:22 pm #

    Here’s the scenario:
    Debt in debt Deniece uses her debit card to buy donuts and then wonders why she’s depressed and is doughy.
    Deniece has just spent an extra .25 cents to buy $2 worth of donuts. Hundreds of billions are handed to predatory banks by people paying for the privilege of spending their own money through swipe fees.
    Patriots spend cash that they get out of a non-profit credit union where they park their money.

  43. dale October 31, 2011 at 12:23 pm #

    I’ve traveled to CR a couple of times….if it weren’t for the lack of adequate roads and my concern for safety, I would give it a thought. Can you explain why even the poorest people, who seem to have nothing to lose, have walls and razor wire around their little shacks? Seems a rather telling indication of the lack of ‘rule of law’ to me.

  44. anonymouse October 31, 2011 at 12:25 pm #

    the last bubble possible is a bond/liquidity bubble and this be it bubba……no wiggling this time. we are looking a 500 years of dark ages when the lights go out……

  45. WestCoast October 31, 2011 at 12:29 pm #

    Cavepainter: thought that you would like this:
    This is a list of all countries and dependent territories by total fertility rate (TFR): the expected number of children born per woman in her child-bearing years.
    1 Niger 7.68
    2 Uganda 6.73
    3 Mali 6.54
    4 Somalia 6.44
    5 Burundi 6.25
    6 Burkina Faso 6.21
    7 DR Congo 6.11
    8 Ethiopia 6.07
    9 Zambia 6.07
    10 Angola 6.05
    11 Republic of the Congo 5.77
    12 Malawi 5.51
    13 Afghanistan 5.50
    14 Benin 5.40
    15 Mayotte (France) 5.40
    16 Liberia 5.24
    17 Sao Tome and Principe 5.21
    18 Chad 5.18
    19 Guinea 5.15
    20 Mozambique 5.13
    21 Madagascar 5.09
    22 Equatorial Guinea 5.00
    23 Rwanda 4.99
    24 Sierra Leone 4.97
    25 The Gambia 4.96
    26 Sudan 4.93

  46. Dirk October 31, 2011 at 12:30 pm #

    No disrespect but vegan? ‘Most practical choice we can make?’ Really? No matter WHAT you eat something has to die for you to live. Unless you have another planet up your sleeve there isn’t enough of ANYTHING to feed all 7 billion of us w/o a lot cheap fossil fuel inputs.

  47. Confusionism October 31, 2011 at 12:35 pm #

    Reminds me of my favorite t-shirt that depicts Rodin’s The Thinker with words that read “I think therefore I am dangerous”. As long as the majority of the population is not engaged in any sort of critical thinking (they’re not) or even have the ability to (they don’t), we will continue to be slaves.

  48. tony P October 31, 2011 at 1:01 pm #

    please someone provide links to Orlov & Ruppert
    thanks
    Thanks for your blog Jim – never miss a week
    I read the guys in Finance at the Telegraph every day – sanest people I know of.
    good luck to all

  49. Vlad Krandz October 31, 2011 at 1:05 pm #

    Exactly – which is why the Founding Fathers hated Democracy or rule by the Mob, exactly what the Occupy Wall St Movement is all about. Real American values are about the Aristocracy of Merit to use Jefferson’s term. By no means should all Americans be allowed to vote. They must be property owners and show a knowledge of our history and politics. The property requirement could be waived if they were gainfully employed and had a record of service – in other word, some skin in the game, not just grousers, layabouts, malcontents, traitors, Marxists, etc.
    Needless to say a good working knowledge of English both spoken and written. Why would any decent immigrant even want to vote until they could do these? By what moral right?

  50. Vlad Krandz October 31, 2011 at 1:24 pm #

    Bravo Dale. Survival Experts like John Rawls impore Ex-Pats to come home. The gringos are going to get their throats cut in many areas. White South America like Argentina, Uruguay, parts of Brazil may be alright. Costa Rica is iffy – Americans are liked but kept at a distance. Maybe the abundance of food will be a safeguard and of course friends among the Ticos themselves.

  51. lbendet October 31, 2011 at 1:26 pm #

    Happy Halloween to all CFNers
    I for one will be dressed as if I lived in a first world super power nation-state.

  52. Vlad Krandz October 31, 2011 at 1:32 pm #

    Is suspended animation possible yet? Maybe we could lock oursleves in and pull the hole in after us. Just sleep for a century and see if it’s over and everyone is dead yet. Go back to sleep if it’s still going on.

  53. Vlad Krandz October 31, 2011 at 1:42 pm #

    According the Left, if Whites vote for Herman Cain it’s just more proof of their racism. Voting for a Black is just as racist as voting for a White. Why does anyone listen to these lunatics?
    Speaking as a Racist, I would prefer a decent Black to a White version of Obama. After all, you’re not American just because you’re born here. White Marxists aren’t American anymore than Obama is. It’s a matter of head and heart not geography. Our Universities specialize in corrupting youth. And stupid American alumni continue to support them. Football is what matters not curriculum. Look at the kind of teachers they have at Duke University where the Professors tried to railroad three innocent White Guys into the living hell of the American Prison System. Did the Alumni wake up or are they still sending the checks?

  54. Glensufi October 31, 2011 at 1:44 pm #

    Whenever I raise the population issue it’s like I walked into the room with something nasty on both shoes. Oh yea that again, well as soon as all those breeding masses are raised up out of poverty the birth rates will be much lower. Uh huh, good luck with that, anyone who cares to do the math can see that ain’t gonna work even if it could happen which is obviously a monumental deception. This population thing is really the true insoluble problem. We are rapidly coming up on limits about which we have no clue how to resolve. And the fact that the “developed” countries generally have flat to negative reproduction rates is irrelevant, we are an increasingly small fraction of global population. Happy Halloween.

  55. Confusionism October 31, 2011 at 1:56 pm #

    Vlad, you’re a smart dude but you are confusing Niger with Nigeria. Nigeria isn’t even on the list.

  56. endofworld October 31, 2011 at 2:04 pm #

    almost 500 lbs of precious metals and 100 lbs bags of rice,beans,lots of pasta,a newwork of like minded folks buys some insurance..but if they deploy the nukes as a diversion all bets are off..a melt down of the banks means the movement of food stops-the truckers will go home-good luck…

  57. charliefoxtrot October 31, 2011 at 2:13 pm #

    hmm i ve figured for some time that the only actually precious metal is usually measured in rounds…

  58. Grouchy Old Girl October 31, 2011 at 2:17 pm #

    Had to laugh at this comment where its author wondered “what to do with Europe” and whether “we” should do anything. Excuse me, but weren’t you guys on the brink of bankruptcy just a couple of months ago, with federal workers wondering if they would get paid or not? Doesn’t look like the USA is in a position to bail itself out, let alone Europe.
    One more thing: wasn’t it the shifty machinations of the US power brokers who led off the entire 2008 collapse of the world markets? Hmm?
    Thanks USA, but you’ve done quite enough already.

  59. caseyf5 October 31, 2011 at 2:30 pm #

    Hello James Howard Kunstler,
    Regarding your last sentence in the above article. I substitute “the governments of the world” for “train a mule” and I come to the conclusion that most if not all of the governments need positive feedback reinforcement. Hitting them with the “stupid stick” until they get to stupid on the intelligence scale. They are starting from total brain death so the task is daunting if not impossible. As for growing potatoes our diet requires much more than spuds. What would happen if we had another potato crop failure similar to the Great Irish Famine in the 19th century on a world wide basis?

  60. Grouchy Old Girl October 31, 2011 at 2:30 pm #

    MEMO TO VLAD AND ALL THE NUTBARS:
    This may be a shock so sit down, dudes. Has it ever occurred to any of you that maybe white skinned people aren’t superior after all? That maybe we’ve had our turn to run things and now it’s over? That maybe the Other Ones get a chance now? Ever think about that?
    I’m giving you all the benefit of the doubt in assuming you can think, at least a little. So go away to a quiet place and really think about these questions for awhile. Then let us know how it turned out.

  61. Vlad Krandz October 31, 2011 at 2:38 pm #

    Only a high tech future can allow for the possibility of producing an adequate synthetic diet for all. Tang came from the space program! Some minerals can be gotten by eating dirt but be careful.

  62. Vlad Krandz October 31, 2011 at 2:42 pm #

    I know. I added it. That sometimes happens in conversations. I don’t say Niger or Nigardly. Blacks can’t tell the difference.
    Nigeria might have a lower rate than many of these other countries but I’m sure it is well above replacement. And it is so much larger than these others.

  63. trippticket October 31, 2011 at 2:42 pm #

    “This is a big decline, the largest in at least 4 years. Could be just a blip, or it could be an indication that people are permanently changing their consumption pattern.”
    That would indicate some sort of mass enlightenment.
    Bwahahahaha!!!! No, I’m going to go with the resource depletion hypothesis…

  64. Grouchy Old Girl October 31, 2011 at 2:42 pm #

    Since you mentioned the Great Potato Famine of the 1840’s let me share with you what I learned when I checked into that years ago.
    (A bunch of starving, sick Irish folks were dumped off a ship by its captain and onto our beautiful beach on the north side of Lake Ontario then, and their settlement around our area still irritates the Scots, who got here first).
    Apparently before the famine there’d been a population boom in Ireland and it was due to the rapid spread of the potato that had been brought back to the UK from North America, and buttermilk from local cows. Between them, they apparently supplied all the nutrients needed to grow lots of Irish people. When the potato crops got that nasty fungus the hungry also got cholera, and many of them died in steerage on ships on their way here if not at home.
    Gotta love history, it kind of proves just how unfair life really can be, not to mention how cheap and utterly dispensible.

  65. Vlad Krandz October 31, 2011 at 2:45 pm #

    No because Africa is returning to the stone age except in the places the Chinese are taking over. You’re a fool Grouch.
    Btw, not that you care, but I’ve never said Whites are the smartest on average. That goes to the East Asians and Ashkenazis. So what are you talking about? Do you even know?
    Yes, Whites are going down – precisely because of traitors like you.

  66. endofworld October 31, 2011 at 2:50 pm #

    yup ,Charlie,you are right….plenty of rounds and hardware to use them…..

  67. trippticket October 31, 2011 at 2:50 pm #

    “the last bubble possible is a bond/liquidity bubble and this be it bubba……no wiggling this time. we are looking a 500 years of dark ages when the lights go out……”
    I’m always curious as to how these numbers are arrived at. 500 years? Why 500? Will it take that long to get back to a sustainable human population? Or does that just seem like a big scary number to throw around? You could say 50 years and it would be just as useless to most of the people around here.

  68. Vlad Krandz October 31, 2011 at 2:53 pm #

    Yes and all while the Scots and Irish were being ethnically cleansed, English Ladies (your spiritual predecesors) were knitting wool sweaters for the poor Blacks in equatorial Africa.
    More ironic: all things Scottish were in vogue at the time, with people trying to prove Scottish Lord ancestry and wearing kilts and what not. Elite Scottish regiments were fighting in the Crimea for Britain instead of for their own people. The reign of Sheep both literal and metaphorical.
    To be fair: a few of the Scottish Elite felt responsible and helped their people establish themselves in the new world. And a few of the English did try to help the starving Irish. But most did nothing – a black mark against the British Empire that nothing can erase.

  69. Liquid Lennny October 31, 2011 at 2:59 pm #

    Well, I got the ol’ “Held for Review” message this morning. Guess that should make me feel as part of the CF’dN community.
    Apparently, it is being held for the following reasons;
    1. I did’t subscribe to JHK’s Blog.
    2. I still need to send in the 3 UPC symbols from the back of the last three JHK books I bought.
    3. I didn’t use enough foul language in my comment.
    4. I used too much foul language in my comment.
    5. My comment was funnier than Jim’s.
    6. JHK doesn’t like Pink Floyd’s “Money” song.

  70. Vlad Krandz October 31, 2011 at 3:01 pm #

    “Bwa” is the influence of Tootsie on you. Acknowledge please.
    I’m going to the Permaculture Conference next weekend – your influence on me.

  71. trippticket October 31, 2011 at 3:04 pm #

    “there isn’t enough of ANYTHING to feed all 7 billion of us w/o a lot cheap fossil fuel inputs.”
    Of course you’re right. But just as a warning: it’s more of a religion than a decision for these people. Save your wits for adult dialogue. Soybeans will never rehabilitate topsoil like mob-grazed beef does, which is probably the most pressing issue on our plate at the moment, but it’s blasphemy to say such things to the moral cadre…

  72. wagelaborer October 31, 2011 at 3:08 pm #

    Why, yes, it is so obvious that people with enough food and housing will rip their neighbors to shreds over differences in religion and such.
    Like where? The only time religious or cultural differences make people attack each other is when there is material scarity.
    Yugoslavia and Iraq, for two examples, lived with their different religions right up until the shit was stirred by the US and hit the fan, to mix two metaphors.
    The US has multiple races and religions, and you rarely see people being attacked unless provoked by TPTB, such as after 9-11. And even then, well-fed Americans remained overwhelmingly tolerant.
    But, go ahead, stock your ammunnition, so as to self-fulfill your propecy.
    Suck on that kernel of hate. Maybe it will nourish you when the shelves are empty.

  73. Smokyjoe October 31, 2011 at 3:09 pm #

    Grouchy, you are wasting your time on a self-admitted racist and other wing-nuts here. They reason from a conclusion. Let ‘em rant. It’s a free country, even for haters.
    “This may be a shock so sit down, dudes. Has it ever occurred to any of you that maybe white skinned people aren’t superior after all?”
    Generally speaking, the West had its guns, germs, and steel. And a run of good luck mingled with the Renaissance. Many times I’m thankful for that historical fact. Imagine what might have occurred had a boatload of Aztecs crossed the Ocean to discover that Europe had no resistance to their diseases.
    Yet put me in the year 1500, and I’d pick Istanbul over any “Western European” city. Of course you could argue about the Turks’ ethnicity. Their ancestors were resourceful, often cruel, horsemen from the Altai Mountains in China. Until they overreached, they were a vigorous and energetic Empire.
    Yet racial-based claims make little sense. I’m happy to have been born in the West, while admitting that whites who lynched blacks in the 1930s US seem no better than Hutus murdering Tutsis today. And then there are those wacky Nazis…white folks gone bad. Some paragon of civilized behavior, that lot.
    Save your breath, Grouchy Girl, and wait for the inevitable. The number of US racists is declining, as our blood mixes…hurrah.
    We’ll outlive the lot of these haters :)

  74. charliefoxtrot October 31, 2011 at 3:09 pm #

    DNA is DNA is DNA…humans are going down because of short-sighted idiots like you who don t understand that life is life…you, me, the birds, insects, trees, everything that qualifies as life, are literally, actually, really and truly RELATED…so when you insult your neighbor for being, you insult yourself and all of us…now, dipshit, we all obviously have stupid relatives, but what is the baseline? i ve insulted you, yes, FOR YOUR ACTIONS, and (lack of) mindset…trust me, i ll quit hurling epithets at my brother as soon as you do now please, try to understand my main point without getting distracted by the buzzwords…onward, through the fog, CFN

  75. trippticket October 31, 2011 at 3:09 pm #

    Actually I got “bwa” from Mean Dovey Cooledge!
    But I am thrilled to no end to hear about your permaculture escapades!!
    Check this out (just recently published):
    http://www.georgiaorganics.org/conference/2012workshops.aspx
    Second down the list – “Permaculture in the Deep South”/sponsored by…
    My first big gig.

  76. ak October 31, 2011 at 3:12 pm #

    I think your comment got held up because it contained a link with too many forward-slashes…
    It happened to me a couple a days ago: two links included, one to a CBS-news story about a new tattooed Barbie doll from Italy, and a second one to the Italian site itself, tokidoki.it
    It got held up, so I removed the dot-it link and tried to repost (about an hour later).
    Oops. A 403/IP ban followed :-(
    BTW, to temporarily deal with such, one may use any of a number of fr33 pr0xy sites (he/she will end up using their IP, not own), but keep in mind your credentials would be visible to such a site should to choose to log in to comment…

  77. lpat October 31, 2011 at 3:16 pm #

    …train a mule
    First you gotta (know how to) breed’m.

  78. wagelaborer October 31, 2011 at 3:18 pm #

    By the way, here is a non-Swede supermodel, who had the temerity to speak the truth about the attack on Libya, and the massive anti-Ghaddafi propaganda used to support mass murder and looting.
    Apparently, Forbidden Truths are also not allowed to be spoken in Italy.
    http://www.sott.net/articles/show/236937-Italian-supermodel-faces-sacking-for-revealing-truth-about-normal-Gaddafi-family

  79. azgog October 31, 2011 at 3:18 pm #

    India now has a birthrate of 52 babies per MINUTE and that’s just one example. Nowhere to run, nowhere to hide is right. Can you hear that ticking sound?

  80. trippticket October 31, 2011 at 3:18 pm #

    “This population thing is really the true insoluble problem. We are rapidly coming up on limits about which we have no clue how to resolve. And the fact that the “developed” countries generally have flat to negative reproduction rates is irrelevant, we are an increasingly small fraction of global population. ”
    Sure is easy to point fingers at the poor breeders. And yes, they are admittedly a big problem. But no bigger than first world consumption. There’s Jevon’s Paradox rearing it’s ugly head again. Save energy on offspring, spend it on yourself. Americans, with their lovely and nearly flat growth rate, still use 25% of the world’s energy and 33% of the natural resources. Entire villages in the third world use less energy than most households in the United States. Not really fair to chide the poor breeders for ruining the party, now is it?

  81. trippticket October 31, 2011 at 3:22 pm #

    That’s why education isn’t really a solution for high birth rates. Educated people spend a whole lot more energy on average than poor illiterate breeders.

  82. trippticket October 31, 2011 at 3:35 pm #

    “The only time religious or cultural differences make people attack each other is when there is material scarity.”
    I’ve been wondering about this for a while now. In a region such as mine, do you think it would be prudent to at least go to church? And maybe take the herbal medicine star off of the doorway? I’ve asked JM Greer the same sort of questions, and he has no qualms about being who he is in the period of history in which he lives. I also am proud to be who I am, but I remain unconvinced that witch hunting couldn’t be turned back to in times of desperation. Once that’s going we’d be easy to spot in our current MO. I doubt we’ll change anything more than our location, but just curious about your thoughts in this regard.

  83. Liquid Lennny October 31, 2011 at 3:36 pm #

    Thanks AK, I’ll take your advice.
    I hope JHK isn’t losing his sense of humor. Once we lose that we’re all doomed for sure…

  84. Grouchy Old Girl October 31, 2011 at 3:40 pm #

    Yeah Smokey, I know. I was really just baiting him to see what would spew from his brain in response. Sometimes I can’t stop myself from being mischievous. Must be the Scottish ancestry coming out, that need to stir the pot.
    I do agree about the desirability of the entire melting of the races into a lovely shade of beige with a hint of burnt orange. Whether we humans will last long enough for this to happen is unclear. But keep the faith, friend.

  85. Smokyjoe October 31, 2011 at 3:45 pm #

    Grouchy, you only forget only truth about Racial Supremacists:
    Can’t live with ‘em, can’t get them to congregate so we can firebomb them. Darn it.
    Worked well in WW II.

  86. cheesemoose October 31, 2011 at 3:51 pm #

    The flaw in JHK’s economic analysis is forgetting that money is not real. When you are dealing in illusion, there is always a way to keep the rubes in their seats. Yes, the number seem dire. No, the numbers don’t add up. Yes, the entire world economy is seemingly hanging by a thread. But the fact is, money is whatever the casino owners say it is, and if they say the blue chips are worth $100 or $10,000…it’s their casino, so…if you wanna play, you play by their rules.
    The most significant thing about the so-called financial crisis is that it pulled back the curtain on this basic illusion. For one brief moment, the truth was there for all to see: It’s all a game. No longer can the rich say there is any intrinsic reason why they lead lives of comfort and the rest of us have to hustle; they don’t work harder; they are not “better” than us, or more frugal, or smarter. Not only did the financial crisis reveal that our entire economic system is a game, but it proved, once and for all, that it’s a RIGGED game, in which the suckers pay the taxes and the casino owners rake in the cash.
    Embarrassing accidents occasionally happen when the House gets too greedy, like when they create new gaming “instruments” like the CDS…but embarrassing or not, all that has to be done is shut down the casino for a few hours, and then – voilá! – open up again under New Management. This is what happened to American banks. The public face was the measly $780 billion bailout. Behind the scenes, the Fed did the real work, and handed out $14 TRILLION to the big banks. Well, why not? If you could pull $14 trillion out of a hat, wouldn’t you?
    The biggest challenge facing the world’s rulers is accustoming people to the next big number after “trillion,” because in the next round of failures, the losses are going to be in the…gazillions? Is that what comes after trillion? I’m gonna have to look that up.
    Anyway, JHK, never underestimate a magician’s ability to maintain an audience’s suspension of disbelief. And don’t take the sucker’s bet that ultimately, there’s something called “reality,” and it has to be faced. There isn’t and it doesn’t. Civilization has always been based on sleight of hand.

  87. trippticket October 31, 2011 at 3:52 pm #

    “I do agree about the desirability of the entire melting of the races into a lovely shade of beige with a hint of burnt orange.”
    I don’t understand why that’s a desirable thing. Indifferent maybe, but desirable? In a lower energy future we will not be living as a global community anymore. We will relocalize, rediversify, and new languages will re-evolve. Certain physical traits will be selected for in certain populations. I happen to like thin white girls with reddish hair and freckles, but plenty of people really don’t. When we go back to village life I imagine certain traits will rise to the top for each village/region. Even if we make it all the way to the “beige promised land,” it will be a short stay. But who cares? Globalization is unsustainable, so anything arising from globalization probably is to. So bye bye boring beige future…hello biodiversity.

  88. charliefoxtrot October 31, 2011 at 3:56 pm #

    there is some interesting research being done re the treatment of socio/psychopathy using electromagnetics applied to the back of the head…perhaps a targeted EMP would suffice…

  89. trippticket October 31, 2011 at 3:57 pm #

    Good stuff! And true, at least until growth peaked four or five years ago. Now it’s more a game of musical chairs. Fortunately for the casino management, most of the patrons haven’t got the foggiest notion what game they’re playing. That’s where you have a decided advantage.

  90. wagelaborer October 31, 2011 at 3:58 pm #

    Well, that’s the conclusion Prog came to. Remember when he first started commenting, he was questioning his faith? And then he decided he wanted them good ol’ Baptist boys watching his behind. And now he baits atheists on this site. Maybe as internet cover, to add to the hometown stuff.
    Personally, I couldn’t fake Christianity. It would make me throw up, a little, in my mouth.
    Besides, you and I are already out there. Too many people know too much about us to be able to get away with hanging a cross on our door, and talking about our personal friend, Jesus.
    Screw it! I yam what I yam. And most people I know, Christian or not, right wing or not, are basically decent people. I think it would take a lot to get them to be individually evil.

  91. Buck Stud October 31, 2011 at 4:00 pm #

    Good to see you’re alive and kicking. Have you ever read Ruskin? Below is one of his most amazing and insightful essays ever written; in fact, by anyone. Ruskin had that rare ability to denigrate and lionize simultaneously, as he did with the Scots in this essay. And no one in our age of mediocrity comes close to him as a writer.
    http://www.readbookonline.net/read/2781/11997/

  92. anonymouse October 31, 2011 at 4:05 pm #

    tripp – the ‘dark ages’ were an economic collapse. the dark ages lasted a lot longer than 50 years…..

  93. Liquid Lennny October 31, 2011 at 4:05 pm #

    OK, lets hope the comment guardians are off buying some more donuts.
    I agree with Jim’s take on the CDS market. After all look who they we’re targeting for selling the trillion euro’s worth of toilet-paper bonds to, the Russians and the Chinese. But I’m sure they got one wiff of those bonds and are holding their collective noses as we speak.
    Since everyone else in the “Western (Developed) World” are all broke there aren’t many other neighborhoods left to canvas.
    So the show continues.
    As for me, since falling down the rabbit hole a little over a year ago, my more current reading material focuses on farming, soil enhancement and the more basic skills which are largely unknown to a poor ol’ city dweller.
    I’ll tell you it was a lot easier going through life not knowing about this stuff; peak oil, CDS’s, CDO’s, all a lot of B.S. to me…
    Welcome to our new reality!

  94. charliefoxtrot October 31, 2011 at 4:06 pm #

    that reminds me: if you see a tank roll up with what looks like a radar dish instead of a turret, GTFO, that s a VERY painful form of crowd control: makes pepper spray seem like perfume- the record time endured is something like 7-10 seconds; avg is more like 2.5 sec…trust me on this, CF’dN (thanks to liquid lenny for that one- permission to keep using it?)

  95. dale October 31, 2011 at 4:06 pm #

    Bwahahahaha!!!! No, I’m going to go with the resource depletion hypothesis…
    ————————————–
    Tripp, you’re already so over invested you have no choice.

  96. anonymouse October 31, 2011 at 4:10 pm #

    we have about 10,000 years of recorded human history and there we only ‘white’ people for about the latest 4000 years…..most of the killing and war and bs humans do to each other was done by dark skin people to dark skin people. jews were black and jesus was black….dna is dna….humans will kill regardless of skin color. when the SHTF humans will kill humans…..racism wont exist when it is a free for all.

  97. k-dog October 31, 2011 at 4:38 pm #

    Wouldn’t it make more sense to learn how to grow potatoes and train a mule?

    As long as there is a new fool to squeeze the bulge in the global economy inner tube as it moves along from the last patch job it may be a good idea to learn to grow potatoes but almost nobody will. Magical thinking will prevail.
    Thinking that technology can’t save us hurts too much. Magical thinking also helps here. Wishing really hard to ‘make it so’. Changing reality from inside your head with magic feels so much better. No help to those who understand technology but they are as few and as far between as new potatoes farmers.
    Delusional thinking is of great comfort and value to many. Who can really say that such a strong and forceful form of solace to so many is all bad?
    One has to be smarter than the mule to train it.

  98. VyseLegend October 31, 2011 at 4:56 pm #

    “Connection has become a pointless end in itself. It’s what you do when the world is collapsing around you. Wouldn’t it make more sense to learn how to grow potatoes and train a mule?”
    Same thing I’ve been thinking every time I hear these yuppies giggling over Twitter and Facebook. Lord help us, though I’m not religious.

  99. azgog October 31, 2011 at 4:59 pm #

    So the powerful right wing conspiracy to deny climate change, buy off politicians and pass more tax breaks for the already rich was …. true? Golly gosh.
    Can we now sue the Koch-suckers for deliberately and fraudulently retarding the discussion? For delaying and obscuring what needs to be done about it? No? Well one result of that might be seeing simultaneous mass protests in a thousand cities. Who knows where that might lead.
    Note to Tea Partyers: You have been tricked by the 1% into defending their interests. You have been watching the wrong Fox, as it turns out.

  100. ozone October 31, 2011 at 5:03 pm #

    …What if it’s all a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?

  101. anti soak October 31, 2011 at 5:23 pm #

    India may be the first [and last?] nation with 2 billion people….more than were on all earth a century or 2 ago…
    And more of the and Pakis [Paki was India 70 years ago] are here…..many illegally.

  102. anti soak October 31, 2011 at 5:29 pm #

    VLAD
    I WAS AT PRISON PLANET…THERE WAS SOMETHING ABOUT
    MICHAEL MOORE IS A USEFUL IDIOT AND PART OF THE 1%
    RAHMBOS BROTHER ARI IS MOORES AGENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    HERE: FROM OCCIDENTAL OR ONE OF THOSE SITES
    Mel because he made a film about Jesus Christ, and they despise Jesus Christ.
    That’s why they put him through hell back in 2003 and 2004, calling him all sort of vile names, accusing him of all kinds of despicable motives and schemes, sending cops out to screen the movie for hate crime violations, using elected officials to intimidate studios into not touching the movie, and demanding that the US Attorney General lock Mel up for making the movie.
    These are the people who run Hollywood, New York and DC.
    They hate you, Ari Emanuel is scum.
    He’s not worthy to even be in the same room as Mel Gibson.
    His father was a terrorist. He was part of the terrorist group that blew up a hotel killing 91 people…
    But because some terrorists are more equal than others, he was allowed into the United States where he became a doctor, and his wife became a “civil rights activist.” His son now heads up the most powerful agency in Hollywood, and one of his other sons, Rahm, is the de facto president who gives orders to the figurehead Barack Obama.
    But scum like the Emanuel’s are in charge now.
    They make up the DC-New York-Hollywood axis of evil, and what they’re doing to Mel Gibson is just a little taste of what they’ve got planned for the rest of us.
    If you want to know their ultimate plans, just read an account of the Communist Revolution in Russia back in the early 20th century, which was orchestrated by people just like Ari and Rahm Emanuel and their terrorist father and “civil rights activist” mother. …………………

  103. anti soak October 31, 2011 at 5:34 pm #

    yes but this month we are 7 billion..yes?

  104. dale October 31, 2011 at 5:43 pm #

    …What if it’s all a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?
    —————————————–
    Maybe your idea of a better world and mine aren’t exactly the same. So whoose idea do we go with? I think the world is going to be what it will be, whatever either of us might have in mind in terms of micro-engineering.

  105. dale October 31, 2011 at 5:52 pm #

    That’s why education isn’t really a solution for high birth rates. Educated people spend a whole lot more energy on average than poor illiterate breeders.
    —————————————–
    I agree completely with that first sentence. We can’t all be “knowledge workers”, or whatever. But that last sentence betrays a flaw in your thinking. If you have too little energy, then there are two possible solutions; use less, or get more (or some combination of the two). Doomers too often speak of the problem as if there was only the second option.
    This is “magical thinking”, not just without the magic, but without the thinking.

  106. ront October 31, 2011 at 5:52 pm #

    I am with you, tripp, let us promote biodiversity. Viva la difference. The Lord loves variety. Maybe, if we have enough different hair and skin tones and colors and slightly different shapes and sizes, there won’t be as much of a drive to ink pictures on and poke holes in ourbodies in order to create an exotic appearance. Sameness is boring, while diversity makes for a richer life experience.

  107. Vlad Krandz October 31, 2011 at 5:54 pm #

    Well I went to an intro class this weekend and started falling in love with the presenter. She was a very feminine and vivacious – the kind that men love and women hate. Such lability! She went to ecstasy when talking about apple trees. And again when I answered her question about what chickens were good for. As pets? Yes! she answered clutching herself. For companionship! I think she liked me too but she’s married. But it was nice since I hate most women and they hate me. They want to become like hens without roosters, laying the unfertilized eggs of diversity speak and bureacracy. Women fit into this anthill of a society, men don’t. Is it not significant than the worker insects are neuteured females?
    The spiritual: she told us about zones 1,2,3, and 4 and asked what is our 0. She said we “should go woo woo with this stuff if we could”. She has no idea of how woo woo I can be.

  108. Vlad Krandz October 31, 2011 at 6:05 pm #

    The Law is Like unto Like. Or do you think that you’re no more than a bug? You said it not me. Go fuck a catepillar.
    Why not nourish diversity? Why do you value it everywhere in nature but not in people? Bemoan the loss of different kinds of pear trees but for Whites nothing? Mourn the dying Tibetan People but for the dying White Race nothing? It’s hypocritical and if you are White, Sick. You see it’s natural for People to love their own more or at least first. Like unto Like. You have no problem with this when other races express it – and they do. If you haven’t noticed, you aint watching.

  109. Vlad Krandz October 31, 2011 at 6:11 pm #

    Everybody looking the same? And that’s diversity right? Even aestheticaly you’re a bummer. Totally lacking in taste. Plastic.
    Read some Flannery O’Connor. She takes on self righteous, know it all, foolish old women like you.

  110. Glensufi October 31, 2011 at 6:13 pm #

    Of course it’s not fair but the problem remains and as the LDCs buy into our game it gets immeasurably worse.

  111. ront October 31, 2011 at 6:24 pm #

    “Delusional thinking is of great comfort and value to many. Who can really say that such a strong and forceful form of solace to so many is all bad?”
    Is this the “ignorance is bliss” idea? I do, however, think you are right that delusional thinking is not all bad. That short-lived solace feels pretty good. It is the suffering that results results from it that is not so good.

  112. Vlad Krandz October 31, 2011 at 6:28 pm #

    I’m not surprised. Moore is a famous hypocrite who would check into a poor motel to interview with reporters and then go back to the four star hotel where he was really staying at.
    When Mel left his wife and set up with the starlet they let him give out an award at the Emmy’s or the Oscar’s. By leaving his wife and committing adultery, he vindicated himself with those people far more than he could ever do by apologizing and groveling. I have no idea what his self image could be now. Still into the radical Catholicism of his Father, Hutter? How could he be?
    He’s a very gifted but obviously tormented man. His own worst enemy. But very likeable with a good core. Some people like Jodie Foster have taken serious heat for not turning their backs on him.

  113. Vlad Krandz October 31, 2011 at 6:33 pm #

    Exactly. The Holocaust is largely a projection of what you people want to do to Whites who don’t hate themselves the way you do.

  114. jammer October 31, 2011 at 6:44 pm #

    Empirestatebuilding always signs off with “Aimlow Joe was here”. I have been meaning to ask this for some time now.
    Why aim low?

  115. anti soak October 31, 2011 at 6:47 pm #

    Have you read reviews at Amazon for ‘Into the Cannibals Pot’?
    South Africa commemorated the help it got from Jews….with some stamps..
    The author condemns herself [jewish and work for anti apartheid] for whats now happening..
    I tried to cut n paste but got the ‘403ban’ several times…had to go to another computer to post this.

  116. anti soak October 31, 2011 at 6:49 pm #

    A terrorists son in the White House and the other son trying to control media!
    hahaha
    no one else here cares!

  117. ak October 31, 2011 at 6:52 pm #

    Vlad – the 403 ban is permanent. Try to get a new IP address from your ISP or use a pr0xy. See above and last week.

  118. turkle October 31, 2011 at 7:53 pm #

    I think the whole deal where the governments cover the banks and then the banks cover the governments is just one big circle jerk. The Fed gives out ultra-low interest loans to the banks. The banks then use these monies to purchase government bonds. Does this make any sense whatsoever? Not to me, but maybe I’m just dumb.

  119. turkle October 31, 2011 at 7:55 pm #

    It was a historical event. Reactionaries like yourself seem to want and spin it to fit some agenda, but it is what it is.

  120. turkle October 31, 2011 at 7:56 pm #

    You ever read Naomi Klein’s book Disaster Capitalism? That’s pretty much exactly what it talks about…

  121. turkle October 31, 2011 at 7:57 pm #

    “But it was nice since I hate most women and they hate me.”
    Why do I find myself completely unsurprised by this revelation?

  122. johnc October 31, 2011 at 8:02 pm #

    wolfbay what was the explanation? where is the lake?

  123. turkle October 31, 2011 at 8:03 pm #

    That is one of the dumbest things I’ve ever heard. If I made a movie about the Untouchables in India, does that mean I have to live on the street with them in a puddle of filth? You’re ridiculous.

  124. turkle October 31, 2011 at 8:15 pm #

    Could you possibly fit any more stupidity into that post? Of course, there have been ‘white’ people for far more than 4000 years.

  125. bproman October 31, 2011 at 8:17 pm #

    Sad times when you’ve got to bolt down the trash can before somebody tries to steal that. Good grief.

  126. turkle October 31, 2011 at 8:20 pm #

    And yet another moron on the internet…

  127. ozone October 31, 2011 at 8:25 pm #

    “You ever read Naomi Klein’s book Disaster Capitalism?” -Turk
    Believe it or no, I haven’t!
    Lots of recommendations, so I’ll have to try and fit it into the flow. Why doesn’t somebody invent some more time? That would be helpful (to me, at least). ;o)

  128. loveday October 31, 2011 at 8:41 pm #

    Hi Jim and all the gang
    Cheesemoose, yup you are correct, the financial world is an illusion. Trillions of dollars?, they don’t exist, except in a computer data base. Banks create this socalled money by making an entry into the computer, the catch is they want to be paid back interest on this newly made accounting entry, that interest comes out of people’s productive labor for which they are paid. See what a gravy train this is for all those “hardworking bankers” . Of course they are gonna fight tooth and nail to continue this little charade. Poor old Lloyd Blankfein and Jamie Diamond don’t want to actually get their hands dirty growing potatoes or building a house. Don’t be silly. So of course we will see no change until the population gets tired of the scam and says enough. Until then we muddle along and try to stay afloat as best we can. But rest assured, no, money really doesn’t exist, it is only an expression of productive activity in order to procure things we don’t actually produce for ourselves.
    Europe and the US will have to reset their financial sectors so they are more in line with actual productive activity, currently the financial sector is not based on actual productive activity. The FED coughed up 14 trillion dollars? Nope, they just made a few computer entries completely unrelated to any productive activity. So the old saying” debt that can’t be paid won’t be paid ” comes into play.
    Well take care clusterfuckers things are getting very interesting
    loveday

  129. turkle October 31, 2011 at 8:59 pm #

    “this little charade”
    Au contraire mon frier, it is the one Big Charade.

  130. turkle October 31, 2011 at 9:02 pm #

    Well, the capsule summary is that high level capitalists foment and use disasters at the nation level in order to push their agendas, basically all at once. The formula is typically to cut social programs, open financial markets, remove price controls, and sell off public property, among other swift changes. This creates a shock effect that basically makes people numb and accepting to a lot of change all at once. It is like the psychological effect of brainwashing or breaking someone down and then implanting new thought or behavioral patterns. Interesting analogy she makes and then covers a bunch of different situations and countries, like Iraq, South Africa, Russaia, etc. Definitely worth a read though it is really depressing, so I stick to about one chapter at a time.

  131. charliefoxtrot October 31, 2011 at 9:25 pm #

    uh oh uh uh oh Oh OH! Aaaaahh!! oh buggy! ok, vlad, i m done…now, where were we? oh yeah, you were trying to argue somehow FOR racism by promoting diversity…huh…gotta admit, that s a new one on me! i think, though, that you missed my core precept, namely that if we humans can look past our (skin-deep) differences, and include the rest of the life-forms in our calculations of worth then we might get down to the business of thriving in balance rather than just using everything up in a mad dash toward extinction of the whole system

  132. Cavepainter October 31, 2011 at 9:37 pm #

    Sorry, theatrical gestures of redemption will not change nature’s calculus. 20th century scientific inputs and interventions delivered to a global population living by creeds and beliefs unyielding to scientific methods, analytical inquiry and critical thought has resulted in human population beyond what is sustainable.
    Yeah sure, all abstracts of justice/injustice are shot to hell; survival will be more a matter of coincidence – that is, happening to be living where population/resource ratio is still near balance and the general population is educated to 21st Century grasp of reality.
    Otherwise, you’re shit out of luck. Essentially, it has nothing to do with who gained and who lost in the past. What counts to survival now is whether or not those in the places of “balance” will preserve it against the inevitable tsunamis of people wanting to migrate away from the already overstressed areas.
    So,….if America doesn’t wake up very soon we will have pissed away our chance of survival to a bunch of dreamy notions that the globe’s total billions can all be saved by reverse engineering all cultures, ethnicities, races, (beliefs, really) into one harmonious, perfectly blended skin-tone whole. Uh-huh!!

  133. orbit7er October 31, 2011 at 9:52 pm #

    I thought there might be some comments on yet another freak storm courtesy of Climate Change madness here in the NYC area. Namely a dumping of
    a foot of snow before Halloween something totally unheard of in my life in the Northeast.
    Here in New Jersey,trees, amazingly still GREEN from
    the globally warmed Autumn, just could not stand under a foot of wet snow. They are supposed to have lost their leaves when that much snow falls!
    This is following horrific rains which a local climatologist said were the summary to a 1 in 1000 year rainfall for Northern New Jersey, following of
    course Hurricane Irene which led to 3 foot floods
    in Denville, again never seen in history.
    Yet the neoliberal Gov Cuomo of New York supported by the Obama Administration wants to fast track 4 new highway lanes with absolutely no Rail option to rebuild the Tappan Zee Bridge with
    138,000 vehicles per day. As if that will resolve congestion or save oil, greenhouse emissions or the other toxins of our auto addiction. Oh, and surely James would love this-
    NASCAR racing for Weehawken!! HOORAY!!
    The OWSers might want to take note that Gov Cuomo is opposing a renewal of the existing NY State
    Millionaires tax…
    The elite just truly does not get it…
    Our former Goldman Sachs Gov Corzine just had his major venture in Euro securities go bankrupt…
    Again, the elite has major tunnel vision…

  134. Headless October 31, 2011 at 10:19 pm #

    “Meanwhile, more than a few banks find that they are catastrophically short of real funds.”
    And every dollar that some unemployed soul draws from their accounts decreases the artificial status of the Ponzi organization by $10–before the effect of calling in loans, etc.
    People don’t get that collapse is exponential squared. As Albert Bartlett famously warned: “The greatest shortcoming of the human race is the inability to understand the exponential function.”
    What he failed to warn about was: the exponential function in decay mode within the context of fractional reserve banking: The collapse will be violent; like a nuclear explosion; there will not be time to duck, much less by pork and beans and ammo.

  135. Headless October 31, 2011 at 10:21 pm #

    buy

  136. Headless October 31, 2011 at 10:24 pm #

    The “elite” can’t get it, as they are sociopaths–at best; psychopaths, more likely.

  137. jeff z October 31, 2011 at 10:31 pm #

    Can anyone really ever train a mule? I’ve never attempted. I do know how to grow potatoes though and have shared some potato (and other crop) growing tips on my blog. If we’re going do go down, we may as well go down with homemade vodka.
    BTW- I’ve never had a problem with my blog loading slowly or not displaying the number of hits until I blogged about bank transfer day this week. I called out a couple of TBTF banks that I have been personally screwed by and which were partly the motivation for my joining a credit union. Thanks BOA and US Bank!
    Anyway, I blogged about it, and the next day the site began behaving strangely. I doubt it’s a coincidence. Anyone else had this happen?
    See it (and comment) at http://eighthacrefarm.blogspot.com/2011/10/remember-fifth-of-november.html

  138. loveday October 31, 2011 at 10:37 pm #

    Just a quick update on the Europe bailout situation. Apparently the Greek Prime Minister has said he will put the bailout question to a public referendum, WOW and double WOW. I smell fear, I guess the Greek pols just couldn’t take it any longer, all those angry, striking citizens giving them the stink eye. Good for Greece, I hope they continue in the footsteps of Iceland and give the banksters the finger.
    Break out the popcorn this is getting very interesting.
    loveday

  139. deacon-john October 31, 2011 at 10:54 pm #

    Just a couple of things.
    Visited Saratoga 2 weeks ago for a conference, yes there was an Occupy Saratoga event. Really enjoyed the town, loved the park and the small town feeling although its really a small city.
    For those of you who wrote #OWS would be over by the World Series, you forgot to say what year.
    The occupation is amazing. Coordination of many groups and different protests each week, trips to DC, mobilizations, a carnival like atmosphere at Liberty Square and people from all walks of life realizing that the 99% have nothing to lose but our chains and the love handles around our waists.
    OWS might hibernate somewhat this winter but in the Spring the netwrok will be laid, the economy will still be tanking, the primaries will be happening and this country will have a political season for the record books.
    God bless
    Deacon John

  140. progress2conserve October 31, 2011 at 11:09 pm #

    Nice post, JHK, and welcome back to the States.
    “Wretched refuse yearning to be free,” the poem at the statue of liberty’s base declares. How prophetic. Nobody in baggage claim understood the sentence, “Which carousel does the luggage from BA 4872 come to?” Quien sabe? Vem vet? Kim bilar? ???? ????? ??????”
    -James Howard Kunstler-
    Yeah, no doubt. And getting worse at the rate of 1,000,000 LEGAL immigrants every year.
    What insanity continues US immigration policy at this unsustainable level – into a country with intractable unemployment and a world closing in on “peak everything?”
    Cavepainter nailed it perfectly:
    “It’s all BS, just as is the dreamy notion that the now seven billion people can all coalesce into one harmony of humanity, willingly redistributing across the planet to form a “leveling”, all becoming fed, sheltered and clothed without cultural/political clash over notions of class, religion, ethnicity, religious beliefs, etc., etc. America’s chance for reaching sustainability is being crushed by continuing immigration from Third World nations and the high birth rate among them.”
    We’re not a stupid people. But we are prisoner to stupid policies – mostly formented by our Grow, Grow, Grow American Capitalists –
    In an unholy alliance with the Catholic Church, La Raza and similar organizations, and the ACLU and similar organizations.
    Stupid powers that be –
    likely going to be the death of all of us.
    Vlad and Wage –
    I’ll try to get back to you tomorrow, sometime.
    -Prog-

  141. myrtlemay October 31, 2011 at 11:49 pm #

    Fellow Cfn’ers, I urge each and everyone of you to join in solidarity with our brothers and sisters in Oakland by not going to work and NOT purchasing ANYTHING on Wednesday, November 2nd.
    Listen, if you will, to Karl Denninger’s blogcast from today. The jackbooted thugs (read police – bless their little hearts) have effectively stomped on the throats of the protesters, to the point of seriously injuring a protesting VETERAN! I’m sorry, but this gets my blood boiling! One of these thugs (err, sorry, police men) actually used their motorcycle to ROLL OVER one of the protestors! WTF?! Can any of you say “NAZI GERMANY”?
    If you are willing to give up your free speech and rights to peaceably assemble, then by all means, IGNORE the Owsers, go to work, spend da cash, and go on living your disillusioned lives. BTW, what we’re you doing during the Vietnam Era? Did you disagree with the war? Were you marching to end it? Same with Irag? Well, ya get what ya put into it, as my old mom would say.
    I’m really frustrated because the people I know and socialize with “don’t get it”. They really don’t understand (or care???) how much they (we) have been getting fucked, especially these past 8 to 10 years. The feeling seems to be, “Yeah, I got my….pension, Social Security, Disablility, so I really don’t care about anybody else!” Well, if that’s your MO, then you deserve every bit of the ass reaming you’re about to see over the next two to three years. BANK ON IT!

  142. myrtlemay November 1, 2011 at 12:07 am #

    “BANK ON IT!” No pun intended. It’s an old expression back from a time when banks lent money they HAD, and charged interest on those loans. They also gave interest to people who had savings…not a whole lot, they still protected their profit margins, but at least they were reasonably fair and honest, AND they responded to the marketplace reality. Unlike today, where the Wonderful Wizard of Oz (Timmy Geitner and Uncle Ben) make monetary policy only to fit the top 1 percent. It’s bastards like them that are eating my meager savings alive. A pox on them all!

  143. myrtlemay November 1, 2011 at 12:14 am #

    “BTW, what we’re you doing during the Vietnam Era?”
    Q’s not here, so I’ll make the correction: What WERE you doing during the Vietnam Era? (I realize that many of you were mere children at the time).
    I fear for the time that I no longer get angry about our country and, by extension, our world. JHK doesn’t seem to be old enough to remember that back in time, as recently as the ’60s, ’70s, and even ’80s, most of us Americans had no where near the massive girth that our brethren have now. We used to be fairly attractive people – minus the fashions of the day, I mean ;)

  144. Vlad Krandz November 1, 2011 at 1:13 am #

    If you were a Hindu Michael Moore, you would pretend to do just that – while really living in a Taj Mahal.
    Oh is he one of your icons? So sorry sad and sorry one.
    Women? You’re attracted to Michelle Obama. Not a bad looking woman but the habitual expression on her face is that of the grinch. In other words, you’re attracted to bitches. You have a long and sorry path ahead of you before you wise up.

  145. Pucker November 1, 2011 at 1:16 am #

    “Pucker—
    A little more than one year from now, we’ll all be doing one of two things.
    We’ll be celebrating the President’s re-election, and our renewed opportunity to keep moving this country forward. Or we’ll be wondering whether we could have done more — reached out and talked to more people, helped register more voters — when we still had time.
    I plan on waking up on the morning of November 7th, 2012, knowing that President Obama was re-elected and I did everything I could to make sure of it. We have a lot of ground to cover between now and Election Day — and we can’t wait until next year to get started. That’s why this week — one year out — we’re ramping up the volunteer push that’s going to get this president re-elected.
    Today, say you’re ready to be a part of it — whether that means you make phone calls next week, go canvassing early next year, or take on a leadership role in your neighborhood team in the months to come.
    Commit to volunteer for 2012 today.
    Thousands of supporters are already at work on the ground, talking to their neighbors, pitching in however they can. But none of us can sit back on the sidelines and hope that work alone will be enough. It won’t.
    There isn’t going to be another November between now and the election: The twelve months we have left are all we’re going to get. Right now, we all have the time, and the opportunity, to step up and make a commitment to be a part of the work that we know will be the difference between winning and losing next fall.
    The reality we’ll all face when the dust settles after the 2012 elections is something we can affect with the actions we decide to take today.
    It’s time: Say you’ll help shape the outcome of 2012 by committing to volunteer:
    http://my.barackobama.com/Commit-To-Volunteer
    Let’s get out there,
    Jeremy
    Jeremy Bird
    National Field Director
    Obama for America”

  146. Liquid Lennny November 1, 2011 at 1:29 am #

    Sorry for the delay, had to walk around the neighborhood with the kid, they were handing out free food this evening! Even got a few MRE’s
    Oscarkilo on that permission request!
    Although, seems every time we look around it’s more of a CF’dWorld. I guess that’s what they meant by globalization, should have known…

  147. Vlad Krandz November 1, 2011 at 1:34 am #

    I’ll check it out. But don’t write off the Whites just yet: many Boers believe in the Prophecies of their great Seer Nicholass Van Rensburg who said that the Boers would regain their freedom from the Blacks. In preparation, many are begining to move to the West Cape and the paramilitary training is now widespread.
    http://www.wvwnews.net/story.php?id=10393
    Do you know anything about Hindu Astrology? I’ve heard its more accurate than Western since it is always correcting itself with the movement of the Cosmos. There are so many services for sale over the internet – can you reccomend one that can do my chart?

  148. Vlad Krandz November 1, 2011 at 1:43 am #

    He is a good writer and it’s a great essay. Taking my time with it. I’ll tell you what I think when I’m done.
    Ruskin is someone I should know more about. He apparently inspired tremendous devotion in person among his students. Walter Pater and the decadents looked to him. As did Willaim Morris and the whole crafts movement I believe. And men of action like Cecil Rhodes considered him a guru. Because of him they were inspired to spread the glories of Anglo-Saxon Culture to the world. They were behind the round tables which became the Council of Foreign Relations in the US. Somewhere along the line all this became globalism as we know it. In other words, spreading Western Culture now means miscegenating Whites out of existence. Wtf? As Tolkien said, many evil things didn’t start out that way. Look at Sauron and Jim Jones.
    I don’t blame Ruskin for any of this at this point. He would probably be horrified at what his teachings ended up inspiring.

  149. Vlad Krandz November 1, 2011 at 1:47 am #

    Just skin deep? Who says? The brain is a physical organ too and subject to Darwinian evolution. And we’ve been separated from the Blacks for tens of thousands of years. It’s not strange that there are psychological differences. Rather the contrary: it would be strange if there weren’t. That would be against Darwin.
    The Gays say the same thing, but it’s alright when they say it, right? As your philospher Lady Gaga says, “Born this way”.

  150. Jill November 1, 2011 at 1:59 am #

    Tell me about it. I no longer fly. I got stopped twice: once for too much sunscreen (I have lupus and always carry big tubes of sunscreen – forgot it was in the purse.) And the second time for some antiseptic from the dentist when I was having a tooth inplant done. After that I got pulled out of line and searched. It didn’t take long to get the message. The noose is closing in on us. No doubt about it.
    Jill in Berkeley

  151. Anne November 1, 2011 at 2:25 am #

    Grow potatoes, yes. It’s not actually too hard to grow potatoes, corn and squash. In fact, I’d start with these.
    Training a mule I’d give a miss. They have a reputation that’s likely well deserved. Goats are probably more worthwhile. You can train them to pull a cart, or pack your gear, and you can get milk and subsequently cheese from them. Plus they eat weeds and are generally pretty easygoing.
    If you are “planning” on doing any of this, however, now (actually last year) is the time to start. There’s a big learning curve with the “simple life” that city folks generally do not anticipate. I know we didn’t appreciate what we were getting into. We just sort of bumbled along. But it does not happen overnight.

  152. hmuller November 1, 2011 at 2:31 am #

    Well, the latest European bailout plan had the markets euphoric for a couple days, then reality set in again. It’s all more smoke and mirrors. At best they can delay the collapse a little longer, although it looks like events may be coming to a head.
    When German and French banks bought all those Greek bonds (the ones now officially shaved to 50 cents on the dollar) they also bought insurance on the bonds (called Credit Default Swaps or CDS, a form of derivative) with US brokerages, including MF Global. Of course, these US insurers were happy to collect the premiums but when the shit hit the fan they had to admit they didn’t have the money to actually make their policy holders whole. Or put another way, they couldn’t pay off the bet. Sorry, European banks. Monday, Oct 31, MF Global went into bankruptcy. But wait, it gets worse.
    MF Global like all brokerages and investment banks has its “house money” which it can use to invest and speculate (gamble). Then they have their clients accounts which are kept separate. Well, it looks like MF Global stole all the money out of their clients accounts in a desperate and unsuccessful attempt to avoid collapse.
    I don’t know what the “MF” stands for, but “motherfuckers” would be highly appropriate.
    Once upon a time in America that level of bold faced stealing would have shocked the nation. A lot of people would have gone to jail; they may yet, including the CEO Corzine, a former governor and senator from (where else?) New Jersey. But I wouldn’t be surprised if the top guys plead ignorance and get off, while the trading desk clerks go to jail.
    So if one brokerage can steal its clients money, why not the others? This could start a run on other brokerages since they’re all crooks, and people are starting to wake up to that fact. Most folks just hate to see all their retirement money disappear in an orgy of outright larceny. I am not kidding when I say the Mafia treats people nicer than this.

  153. Vlad Krandz November 1, 2011 at 3:11 am #

    The Occupy Movement can’t be all bad since David Duke has come out in support of it and the Black Woman who was fired for speaking the Truth to Power.






  154. trippticket November 1, 2011 at 8:46 am #

    “tripp – the ‘dark ages’ were an economic collapse. the dark ages lasted a lot longer than 50 years…..”
    The “dark ages” were also a brief period of sustainable human activity embedded in the growth phase. Some would argue that it was a life not worth living, but there is no amount of affluence that justifies killing the biosphere for our children. To me, living a life that compromises my children’s future well-being is the worst sort of existence imaginable.
    I simply meant that 50 years would cover the remaining expected lifespan of most of the posters around here, and would therefore be quite long enough to scare the bejesus out of them. No wild, random guesses necessary. Although comparing what’s going on now with any given period within the larger growth context, that is, the last 10,000 years, is to not really understand the gravity of what’s happening.
    If there are half a billion people left on Earth this time next century I’d be surprised. At that point, and with the resultant ecological recovery following the subsidence of industrial activity, one might consider the population once again sustainable. Who knows.

  155. trippticket November 1, 2011 at 8:59 am #

    “Of course it’s not fair but the problem remains and as the LDCs buy into our game it gets immeasurably worse.”
    Now THAT is square on the mark!

  156. trippticket November 1, 2011 at 9:02 am #

    Did you pick up anything about permaculture?

  157. trippticket November 1, 2011 at 9:03 am #

    “Maybe, if we have enough different hair and skin tones and colors and slightly different shapes and sizes, there won’t be as much of a drive to ink pictures on and poke holes in ourbodies in order to create an exotic appearance. Sameness is boring, while diversity makes for a richer life experience.”
    Hear hear!!

  158. ozone November 1, 2011 at 9:08 am #

    LOL!
    I wish Jeremy lots o’ luck on his [bowelish] movement.
    It’s hard to believe he would send that rah-rah shit to a potentially informed person (regardless of their party “affiliation”). Isn’t that a bit risky?
    Jeremy better keep his head down, ’cause things ain’t gonna be lookin’ too sweet in about a year…
    but hey, it’s all about PR and ad-space, isn’t it?

  159. charliefoxtrot November 1, 2011 at 9:11 am #

    please forgive my ignorance on the subject, but what is LDC? and tripp, do you have any way of warning the nice lady about the nazi?

  160. trippticket November 1, 2011 at 9:14 am #

    “But that last sentence betrays a flaw in your thinking. If you have too little energy, then there are two possible solutions; use less, or get more (or some combination of the two). Doomers too often speak of the problem as if there was only the second option.”
    I assume you’re referring to me as a doomer, though my message has always been to use less, not get more, so I’m not at all sure what you’re getting at. There will be less energy per capita from here on out, has been since 1979 actually, and now growth is officially over to boot. To gain more energy now other people have to starve and die. To use less, people have to change the way they think. I’ve done the later, and you seem to be bent on perpetuating the former, whatever brand of magical thinking that requires. You’ve got your accusations completely backward again.

  161. ozone November 1, 2011 at 9:17 am #

    And to top it all off, they tried to SELL the hollowed out POS, knowing full well there was “no there there”. Everywhere you look; rot and fraud without punishment or social shunning. Shameless.
    MF Global. Perfect, just perfect; you can’t make this shit up.

  162. trippticket November 1, 2011 at 9:18 am #

    “please forgive my ignorance on the subject, but what is LDC? and tripp, do you have any way of warning the nice lady about the nazi?”
    All I can make out is something-developing countries. Not sure what the ‘L’ stands for. And yes, I’ll project a message on the permaculture sub-ether net to her about our Vlad;)

  163. trippticket November 1, 2011 at 9:24 am #

    “Bwahahahaha!!!! No, I’m going to go with the resource depletion hypothesis…
    ————————————–
    Tripp, you’re already so over invested you have no choice.”
    You’re right. There is no evidence whatsoever around us that things have gone completely haywire. People don’t just choose to fuck things up royally when they were going so smoothly, just because they had some mass change of heart about their consumption patterns. What a fool I’ve been. Occum’s Razor is definitely on your side in this matter…

  164. Patrizia November 1, 2011 at 9:50 am #

    Collapsing is not so important.
    The important is having somebody to collapse with.
    Or it is not important to collapse, the important is to participate.
    If Italy defaults on Monday, France follows on Tuesday, Germany a few days later.
    Ironically Italian banks are much more reliable than French banks, they have many less Italian bonds
    (and Greek bonds).

  165. progress2conserve November 1, 2011 at 10:12 am #

    Vlad – dang it, boy!
    Just when I think I’ve found a white separatist/supremacist who can live and think in the world of actual reality – you come up with something like this:
    “The Blacks should be settled with as we have attempted to do with the Indians. A generous swath of the Deep South with Atlanta as a capital should do the job. The borders must be drawn so as to include Prog. It’s up to them to decide how to dealt with “their” Whites.”
    -vlad krandz-
    I guess the black supremacists/separatists will be thrilled by this idea of separating the American South for a Black Land. Thus do you, Vlad Krandz, validate the black supremacist idea that ALL whites in the American South are responsible for all of the racial evil ever perpetrated on the Whole Entire World.
    Nice –
    You live in a (interior West Coast?) fantasy world. Exactly what mechanism(s) would accomplish this goal of yours.
    Never mind – I guess some version of a “Trail of Tears” for Southern White People, would do just fine – in this IdahoLand fantasy of yours.

  166. kulturcritic* November 1, 2011 at 10:16 am #

    James – Sorry I am late to the party, but things are heating up. So let’s see what the Prince of Peace is up to now. kulturcritic.
    http://kulturcritic.wordpress.com/posts/will-the-nobel-peace-prize-winner-stand-and-be-recognized/

  167. WestCoast November 1, 2011 at 10:27 am #

    Why is everybody picking on Vlad?
    Yeah he confused Niger with Nigeria. Such ignorance, such exaggeration. As we know Nigeria’s Total Fertility Rate is “only” 5.6 babies per woman.
    That means that their population will double in less than 13 years…600 million Nigerians.
    Think of the human capital!

  168. dale November 1, 2011 at 10:36 am #

    Pucker,
    Tell Jerry for me, that I did all of that last time, and what I got was not what was advertised.
    If “we the people” are given a choice between a party that is a wholly owned subsidiary of crony capitalism, and another that is majority owned by the same kleptocrats, we need to change the game, not ratify it.

  169. BeantownBill November 1, 2011 at 10:36 am #

    LDC = lesser developed country or countries.

  170. progress2conserve November 1, 2011 at 10:42 am #

    Tripp –
    I’ve got answer your question before tackling Wage’s question/accusations –
    You are talking about survival of yourself and your family. Wage is talking doctrine.
    And you are living in preparation of a vision of near? complete societal collapse within the next 50 years. John Michael Greer (I think, I’ve just recently begun to follow him) doesn’t foresee the same complete societal collapse that you do, Tripp. Or maybe JMG doesn’t have young children that he knows he will protect, no matter what.
    Anyway – survival (within large moral limits) trumps doctrine in my book. And I know where you are – in a small Southern community. Outside of the Methodist and Baptist churches – there’s not a whole lot going on with any social depth or breadth.
    And there’s the whole question of “making your place in the world better and/or spreading your OWN truth.”
    You will reach more people with the Doctrines of Permaculture if you take a lower profile against the various “sky Gods.” It’s south Georgia, dude. You’re not going to convert it away from some version of Christianity in one lifetime.
    But by participating a little bit –
    Maybe you can take off some of the hard edges.
    $.02 – Prog

  171. charliefoxtrot November 1, 2011 at 10:48 am #

    thanks, bean you re well, i hope…

  172. progress2conserve November 1, 2011 at 11:02 am #

    Wow, Wage – late last week, you posted something to the effect that I had missed you. Which – hey, I don’t mind admitting – is true enough.
    Apparently you missed me, too. But you’ve certainly come back ready to rumble, womanfrien':
    “Well, that’s the conclusion Prog came to. Remember when he first started commenting, he was questioning his faith? And then he decided he wanted them good ol’ Baptist boys watching his behind. And now he baits atheists on this site. Maybe as internet cover, to add to the hometown stuff.” -wage, concerning survival of collapse-
    It’s very important to question one’s faith, Wage. Most of the real harm ever done in the World – has been done by people who NEVER QUESTIONED ANYTHING, especially their faith.
    And I do not bait atheists on this site.
    I do sometimes bait Atheists.
    That capital letter makes a big difference.
    In my mind – people have no doubts or questions just need some baiting and poking from time to time – to help them think, you know.

  173. dale November 1, 2011 at 11:09 am #

    There will be less energy per capita from here on out, has been since 1979 actually, and now growth is officially over to boot.
    ——————————————-
    The trouble with being “fully invested” in one point of view is, you become blind to complexity, to wit:
    From 1990 to 2008 the average use of energy per person as IEA data increased 10 % and the world population increased 27 %. Regional energy use grew from 1990 to 2008: Middle East 170 %, China 146 %, India 91 %, Africa 70 %, Latin America 66 %, USA 20 %, EU-27 7 % and world 39 %
    —————————————
    That’s what a trend looks like. If you need a source I’ll provide it. In other words, Not only has total energy use grown sizably, but output per measure of energy has soared. If I were foolish enough to become invested in “knowing all about” something so complex and multi-dimensional….and I believed in technology and the future without reservation (the flip side of your argument)….I’d take that as a major success, not a sign of the end of big energy, or whatever it is you believe in.
    You imagine your position to be “flexible”, that is, you think you will somehow be less at risk should a major decline occur…..maybe. But that would only be true if the major decline DOES occur. All possibilities, and their appropriate probabilities taken into account, your position is actually highly inflexible….that is, you’re fully invested in one outcome. If it doesn’t happen, you’re just a guy standing on a street corner with a sign and a long beard braying about the end of the world.
    I’m not your opposite number, as those who are doomers (sorry if I’ve mistakenly labeled you as such, but you sound awfully close to that position) like to label me. I don’t know what will happen next, I take reasonable precautions to be prepared, but that’s really all we can do.
    I don’t make a religion out of science, or out of hating science. I suspect mankind is in for a roller coaster ride (just as it always has been), but I’m not stupid enough to think I know when the next down hill is coming, that’s just vanity.

  174. insufferable November 1, 2011 at 11:12 am #

    what is supposed to happen on 11/11/11?

  175. ozone November 1, 2011 at 11:23 am #

    “That means that their population will double in less than 13 years…600 million Nigerians.
    Think of the human capital!” -WC
    Human capital… hmmm, Human Resources.
    Aw hell, why don’t we drop the pretense and Orwellian new-speak and use some older terminology:
    “desperate slaves” should do. ;o)

  176. Liquid Lennny November 1, 2011 at 11:25 am #

    “Held for review” again.
    Really, strike two? Hey, I mailed the UPC symbols.
    You know what they say ’bout trying three times until you get a yes.
    Dang, and I took out all the links and there wasn’t a single expletive.
    So what is it, not enough swear words or too many?
    I’m confused…

  177. insufferable November 1, 2011 at 11:28 am #

    Every week this blog is becomming more and more boring. The same topic, hashed over a million ways by various views all leading to the same page. We are doomed….when, how, where, in what variety, no way out..blah, blah, blah.
    You all might as well log onto various astrologers websites. Its a all a crap shoot. No one knows the future, not even Kunstler. He seems to constantly be whining about the demise of this country or that country etc. BORING.
    The world has NEVER gone backward. If we all start using horses again, and cooking on wood stoves, killing our own chickens and chopping wood every day, then we are going to be living in a television episode of The Twilight Zone. It will never happen. People will just begin to die off and slowly things in the world will change. Its just the way things are. The amount of words and “predictions” of going backward are just a waste of time. The Baby Boomers have shot their best load, and when the generation totally dies off, the world will begin to move AHEAD….NOT BACKWARDS.

  178. ozone November 1, 2011 at 11:46 am #

    Tripp,
    Wassamatta U.? (Bullwinkle’s alma mater.)
    Don’t you know it’s better just to go along with the current “arrangements” than to provide food-growing, gathering and diversification skills for your kids?
    Geez, EVERYONE knows that begging for your [processed] food [-like monoculture substance] on the street corner is a much better plan than growing your own. Get wid’ da program! Why must you be so friggin’ dense? ;o)

  179. Mike Hunt November 1, 2011 at 11:55 am #

    For Vedic astrologers do a search for James Kelleher. I had a reading done by him – he’s quite good. Many Indians in Silicon Valley go to him for readings.
    M.H.

  180. progress2conserve November 1, 2011 at 12:40 pm #

    First of all, insuff – define “FORWARDS” in the terms of the motion of human society – as used in your post.
    “The world has NEVER gone backward. If we all start using horses again, and cooking on wood stoves, killing our own chickens and chopping wood every day…” -insuf-
    You might want to talk to the former citizens of the USSR – and you might want to talk to the Cubans – most of them went “backwards,” as you seem to use the term.
    Please elaborate.

  181. Vlad Krandz November 1, 2011 at 12:47 pm #

    Thanks. I’ll use him if does it over the net unless Asia/Anti has an objection or a better candidate.
    He knows alot about India and psychic stuff and I know him. I don’t know you from Manu. (Adam)

  182. Vlad Krandz November 1, 2011 at 12:51 pm #

    I did no such thing – I added Nigeria after you left it off the list. Curb your impertinence and serve your race with humility.
    I’m half serious: a White man was once fired from a white collar job because a black colleague took offence at the word niggardly. That’s the quality of human capital that Blacks present.

  183. Vlad Krandz November 1, 2011 at 12:59 pm #

    Life IS boring for the most part – all seeds and skin as the Indian Saint Ramakrishna said. The nectar is exceedingly scarce.
    Studies show that material conditions fell off greatly after the fall of the Roman Empire in the West. Or look at Babylon: now ruins in the place of a great city of luxury.
    There is no progress so called – just endless waxing and waning. The real progress is the soul’s journey from the alone to the Alone.
    Rush is playing Barack the Magic Negro – ah Nectar!

  184. BeantownBill November 1, 2011 at 1:09 pm #

    Very good post, Dale, IMO. Your outlook mirrors mine. We can’t know the future, too many variables exist. All we can really provide is guesses. Assigning accurate probabilities of future events is very difficult; however it can be done. But that’s all they are – probabilities. For a realistic perspective on probabilities as applied to real life, read David Ropeik’s book on this subject. I wish I could remember the title; unfortunately, I don’t.

  185. mugur November 1, 2011 at 1:45 pm #

    Dear James
    First of all thank you for this very entertaining and at the same time very sharp and straight forward blog. Allways a pleasure to read.
    The sentence, which I believe to be in Turkish, ‘kim bilar!’ which means ‘who knows!’ should be corrected as ‘kim bilir!’. Just a small correction.
    Best regards

  186. Confusionism November 1, 2011 at 1:54 pm #

    Love your latest post Kultur. Just signed up for your mailing list.

  187. anon y'mouse November 1, 2011 at 2:33 pm #

    here’s the techno-fix to all problems in a nutshell:
    this weekend, a tenant tells me at 2 p.m. his hot water has not been working since last Thursday when the old one blew out and they replaced it that day with a new one.
    i personally do not know how to determine what needs fixing. admitting my own ineptitude, i call my boss to see if he can take some time out of his weekend to figure out what the thing needs to get it up and running.
    he goes, tests it, tells me his diagnosis (electrical issue with the breaker) then calls someone affiliated with HIS boss –the management company’s maintenance department– to deal with the issue.
    that guy arrives, runs the same series of tests my boss did, then calls the company that installed the hot water heater last week.
    those guys arrive, run the same series of tests, and tell me to call an electrician. the technician i got was kind enough to not charge me for wasting his time!
    this is exactly what my boss originally said was wrong with the item and he could have directed me to fix the real source of the issue at that time. but instead, i’ve got five guys on cell phones (because all of these companies don’t have an actual employee or dispatcher answering the telephones on weekends. they all seem to contract out to a telephone-answering service, who takes your info and passes it on, and so on, and so forth…)all yakkin’ to each other and running the same test on the thing over and over, and then calling each other with what they have found. eureka!! it’s definitely not an apple falling on Newton’s head.
    what should have been fixed in 2 hours ultimately took until 9 o’clock at night and four different people putting their hands on the thing in order to make sure that one guy can take a shower when he gets home from work.

  188. wagelaborer November 1, 2011 at 2:54 pm #

    Calm down, Prog. That was an observation, not an accusation. Which oberservation you just confirmed with your post to Tripp.
    The part about baiting atheists as internet cover? I just thought of that.
    Personally, I think it’s nicer to bait atheists to cover your own internet ass than to do it for the pure sport. Because it would be a bait-and-switch on top of it! Since you came questioning your faith and all, and I fell for it!

  189. wagelaborer November 1, 2011 at 2:58 pm #

    I’m assuming you posted this to give us all a laugh, Pucker.
    Because if there is one thing that unites us on this blog, it’s a disgust with Barack Obama and what he’s doing.
    Except for Asoka. And only one of his personalities supports Obama. The rest call him a war criminal.

  190. anon y'mouse November 1, 2011 at 3:17 pm #

    Smokyjoe, you may have not read your Jared Diamond closely enough. he posits that there were not enough ‘native’ diseases to fight back with. the Aztecs would have brought….syphilis; that’s about it. and that got to Europe easily enough on its own. north-south versus east-west orientation of the americas, and lack of a common domesticated animal throughout were the reasons he states.
    another book i’d recommend is “1491…”.
    a common iteration in our household is “they shoulda shot ‘em before they got off the boat!”

  191. Buck Stud November 1, 2011 at 3:30 pm #

    Like a desert mirage of water, you lap up the the sarcastic inflection and bombastic vocals of Limbaugh as if it were “nectar”.
    You have been poisoned, Krandz. Take some castor oil and actually read the written text of Limbaugh’s spoken words. You will never feel so stupid… lionizing such infantile mediocrity.
    I’m serious: actually read his spoken word in text. Your bitter pill will be an eye opener.

  192. trippticket November 1, 2011 at 3:41 pm #

    Well, thank goodness I’ve never made ANY sort of hard guess as to when the stuff might hit the fan. In my opinion, we are way past said fan splattering said stuff in every direction. Apparently there are some statistics you’ve missed on your comprehensive tour of what IS. Maybe you didn’t notice but the rates of cancer are soaring, stroke, diabetes, heart disease, fibromyalgia (rickets, or whatever you want to call it), obesity, gluten-intolerance, etc, etc, ad nauseum, ad infinitum.
    “The stuff” doesn’t have to be a morphous bounded substance to hit the fan (though that would make it easier to recognize, granted); a thin smattering of some diarrhea-like stuff dribbled with increasing regularity into said fan blades makes a far worse mess, in my fatherly opinion, if for no other reason than that it’s more difficult to get a good handle on.
    What I’m doing is improving my life, right here, right now. I recognize that using a lot of energy is cancerous, as is evidenced in American culture at large, and I have chosen another route. I think a lot of what makes my children so wonderful (in the eyes of everyone who has met them so far anyway) is their LACK of contact with typical American levels of energy.
    Food grown in a slower, saner way tastes better, feels better, has a higher vitamin and mineral content, and if managed correctly leaves the soil in better shape, creating a positive feedback loop of improving health and brain function. I know because I’ve been there, and now I’m in a place where it’s very hard to acquire if I am not personally growing it, and we are suffering noticably for that. In other words, the more I live like the average American the more I suffer. That’s just hard first-hand data.
    I’m not standing on any street corners with a sandwich board over my shoulders decrying the end of time, no, I’m in my garden, living the good life, or at the farmers market helping other people find it. I talk about it because it IS so good, not because we are attempting to avoid something bad in the unforeseeable future. Though that could end up being a definite perk!
    If energy availability goes the other direction, that is, back into a growth pattern, I know that humanity will continue to suffer for it, just as we’ve been suffering more and more each generation since the pattern began. And I will still be here providing an alternative model, living a happy, healthy life in a slow and sane way. There is nothing that could persuade me to leave the good life to go back to the cancerous one, not even a free energy source. Although such a thing is a logical impossibility anyway.
    Therefore, it’s my conclusion that you don’t understand very much about me, what I do, or what I endorse, and I would appreciate it if you would just bother someone else with you misunderstandings.

  193. trippticket November 1, 2011 at 4:08 pm #

    your

  194. trippticket November 1, 2011 at 4:20 pm #

    “All we can really provide is guesses. Assigning accurate probabilities of future events is very difficult; however it can be done.”
    All we can provide is guesses, but assigning accurate probabilities can be done. I’m glad I’m not relying on your logical reasoning skills for my future survival, Bean!;)
    We believe what we’re pre-disposed to believe. In this way every opinion is a religious one, even the secular scientific one. Any opinion imaginable can be supported by internet “data.” That’s why the internet has not promoted any mass movement toward reality, yours nor mine. But, the good news is, Nature will proceed as she always has, selecting from the planet’s latent diversity those traits which most befit the current environmental pressures. The rest of this is all conjecture.

  195. trippticket November 1, 2011 at 4:31 pm #

    “Geez, EVERYONE knows that begging for your [processed] food [-like monoculture substance] on the street corner is a much better plan than growing your own. Get wid’ da program! Why must you be so friggin’ dense? ;o)”
    It’s the mineral-dense organic food; I can’t help it…the mainstream cultural narrative just seems so…forehead-slappingly retarded (TM) to me. Maybe I should just shut up, go back to eating those Happy Mealz, and find my bliss again.

  196. BeantownBill November 1, 2011 at 5:10 pm #

    Hey, Tripp, a very good posting, too. I know you practice what you preach, unlike so many of us CFNers. Leading a simple, low-energy-usage lifestyle that makes you happy is a wonderful thing, and I applaud you for it.
    HOWEVER (there’s always a “however” with me, it seems), living like you do is a personal choice. Most of our society makes a choice to lead a high-energy lifestyle. Don’t you think there must be some positive paybacks for people to choose to live the way they do? If it was all terrible, people wouldn’t do it.
    Using a lot of energy has vastly increased our population. I’ve mentioned V. Gordon Childe in several posts. He believed the only objective measure of a species’ progress is in their population numbers. To the extent population increases, is nature’s way of measuring success. Now you and I know too much of a good thing is not good, and human population is way too high. Yet I believe Childe was correct.
    How do we reconcile this? I think the answer is that our energy use (and ultimately our population) should have leveled off at some point. That didn’t happen, so the issue has been our lack of self-control and wisdom, not the high energy lifestyle itself. I’m not sure anyone really knows the exact carrying capacity of the Earth, but I can imagine a world where the per capita energy usage is still high or relatively high, and the population is less than the carrying capacity.
    With regard to the modern lifestyle, it sure does produce a lot of stress, but the human body is built to handle it. Lifespans have increased from around 25-30 during the stone age to around 80 today, thanks to technology. Now maybe you don’t like the price of this lifespan increase, but you have to admit, to an atheist like me and other non-believers, a longer, healthier lifespan is to be desired.
    And healthier it is. I don’t know where you got your figures, but US cancer rates are either stable for some type of cancers or decreasing for others. Some types of cancers are in fact increasing. Cancer is a very complicated set of diseases and a blanket statement on the cancer rate is usually not accurate. Heart condition deaths have definitely decreased. Cancer and heart conditions both have a major lifestyle component, so even though a high-energy-usage life is maybe a negative factor, relatively minor changes to that lifestyle can go a long way to mitigate the probability of getting these diseases.

  197. BeantownBill November 1, 2011 at 5:31 pm #

    Yeah, I didn’t explain myself clearly. What I’m trying to say is that a probability only gives us the chance of something happening, not whether or not it WILL happen. In that sense, all probabilities are guesses of occurrence, so an accurate probability is the best guess.

  198. trippticket November 1, 2011 at 6:00 pm #

    I was just about to reply to your first post, but then realized that, instead of huffing and puffing to some stranger in (for all practical purposes) a different country, I could make my point better by just playing with my children. So I did, and now they are cracking roasted peanuts at the table, the wild rice is on to simmer, and I’m going out to water the greens.
    Thanks for the banter.

  199. Vlad Krandz November 1, 2011 at 7:46 pm #

    Don’t be angry. Obama is a fraud and Whites voted for him based on guilt. Becuause of guilt, Whites like you created an image that Blacks are morally superior to Whites. Now you realize that Obama is a fraud and you feel uncomfortable for voting for him. But you still haven’t come to grips with the fundamental disease that caused you to project all these wonderful qualities onto a stuffed suit. So instead of grappling with these issues, you’d rather attack me.
    The song addresses these issues in a fun and hilarious way. Try to find it and download. Listen to it as you go to be at night. Keep it going all night so it enters your dreams.

  200. lbendet November 1, 2011 at 7:55 pm #

    Whirlpool Revisited
    This one’s for you, Wage. In 2010 I wrote about how Whirlpool after receiving 19.3 million of stimulus money shut down an Indiana factory to move down to Mexico and told the other workers they should be quiet about it lest they lose their own jobs.
    I was checking out my FB page when I ran across this one from Ed Schultz on Oct 28th.
    Well ya know the stock market rules and even though Maytag had a profit of $177 million, it fell short of expectations so of course you know 5 thousand workers jobs at a whopping $17 per hour just had to be cut.
    Oh, those corporate big wigs just have to make up the difference of their short-falls by taking from others, afterall in this game they still insist on calling Capitalism they can’t possibly lose!–no matter what!
    Which brings me to the topic of our friend Jon Corzine of MF Global securities firm. Ha! and what did this former NJ Gov. and Goldman Sachs exec do?
    After a big bet on European debt backfired–MF Global bet $6.3 billion on debt issued by Italy, Spain and other European nations with troubled economies.
    Oh I guess he didn’t cover himself with counter bets so he couldn’t possibly lose–What was he thinking? Didn’t he learn anything when he was there? I read he got fired from GS by Paulson of all people, man that is a low. Why didn’t he do the GS foxtrot he was supposed to have learned so well?
    Well he went into Madoff mode and took money from his clients to cover his losses.—You just can’t make this stuff up. It’s the world of no regulations–Translation no rule of law.
    _______________________
    Note to Vlad–They’re all frauds! Doesn’t matter which party. Both Dems and Reps made huge money in the last 3 years since the stock market crash–that too will have to be investigated.
    State judges are bought with corporate money. It’s going to take way more than an election to clean this cronyism up.
    The system needs a major colonic! (Can’t say I want to be in the way when it happens)

  201. lbendet November 1, 2011 at 7:59 pm #

    Oops– I said Maytag instead of Whirlpool, but that’s ’cause I was going to go into how Whirlpool bought out Maytag and cut it’s workers off from their health insurance in 2006.

  202. progress2conserve November 1, 2011 at 8:45 pm #

    “We believe what we’re pre-disposed to believe. In this way every opinion is a religious one, even the secular scientific one. Any opinion imaginable can be supported by internet “data.” That’s why the internet has not promoted any mass movement toward reality, yours nor mine.”
    -tripp ticket-
    Tripp said this – and it’s pretty profound, and pretty damning of humanity and the human enterprise.
    Certainly – any imaginable opinion can be supported by internet “data.” – from the open internet. But there are islands of sanity in the open internet. One is Wikipedia.
    I understand the anti-Wikipedia arguments. But I’ve never seen an anti-Wiki argument proven true in any sort of significant manner, especially in the past couple of years.
    I just spent several minutes looking up the most controversial subjects I could think of on the spur of the moment on Wikipedia. Rush Limbaugh, Iraq, Fox News, Occupy Wall Street, Peak Oil, etc. etc.
    I could not find a single Wikipedia article that was not, when taken as a whole – relatively impartial and factually sound. If someone can find a bad Wiki article – I sure would like to see it.
    My point is – Truth is out there – on the internet. Humanity just isn’t interested in it.
    What is wrong with us?
    We’re going down and it’s our own fault.
    I did think to look up one article that was quite interesting and topical. It even has a “Criticisms” section. That’s a pretty short section.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permaculture

  203. progress2conserve November 1, 2011 at 9:03 pm #

    “Personally, I think it’s nicer to bait atheists to cover your own internet ass than to do it for the pure sport. Because it would be a bait-and-switch on top of it! Since you came questioning your faith and all, and I fell for it!”
    -wagelaborer-
    I’m almost at a loss for words, Wage.
    I question my faith, or lack thereof, regularly.
    I only suggest that you and the CFN atheists do the same.
    Sorry if you think I’m baiting and switching for sport, or to be devious, or to trap you or others into falling for things.
    And I’m certainly not trying to cover my “internet ass.”
    One short, sharp, shock of humor (TM Pink Floyd)
    Exactly what, Ms. Wage L, do you think my “internet ass” would look like?

  204. jerry November 1, 2011 at 10:28 pm #

    “We are in the process of creating what deserves to be called the idiot culture. Not an idiot sub-culture, which every society has bubbling beneath the surface and which can provide harmless fun; but the culture itself. For the first time, the weird and the stupid and the coarse are becoming our cultural norm, even our cultural ideal.”
    Carl Bernstein, U.S. journalist. Guardian (London, June 3, 1992)
    This is the truth!! We are stuck in a warp whereby no one in government has a strong enough spine to actually engage in fixing our problems. They are stuck in making sure the richest people are protected from harm.
    Grow potatoes, train a mule, and cook up road kill. This is the new America. Best to live in Sweden.
    http://eye-on-washington.blogspot.com

  205. trippticket November 1, 2011 at 10:31 pm #

    “One short, sharp, shock of humor (TM Pink Floyd)”
    I never knew exactly what they were saying there. Thanks for the clarification!
    Hahahahaha-ha-ha-ha!!!
    I don’t know, I was really drunk at the time…

  206. Vlad Krandz November 2, 2011 at 12:05 am #

    Prog! Read the reviews of “Into the Cannibal’s Pot” on Amzazon. A Jewish woman who helped to overthrow the Whites now realizes it was madness and warn the US that it could come here. Your mistake? You think Asoka is a rarity. Fatal mistake. He is unusualy passionate and outspoken that’s all. Most Blacks, even educated ones, believe exactly the same. Many might not say it to a White’s face, but so what? They will support the Asokas of the world in one way or another. And even the ones who disagree aren’t about to rock the boat and earn the hatred of their racial brothers and sisters. Muslims are the same. Not all are jihadis but most will ultimately support them or at least not oppose them.
    On Europe and Islam: see Oriana Fallaci, the feminst firebrand who opposed the invasion. She believed the research of an Israeli researcher named Bat Yeor. Bat Yeor said that a powerful pre European Union group negotiated with the Muslims to turn Europe towards Islam in exchange for a guarante that the oil would never be shut off. Beyond that, Eurabia fits in with the long term globalist agenda which is has the intent of superseding nations by large economic zones and then ultimately uniting the zones for world goverment. For Europe per se, they care not at all.
    And Europe was ripe for the plucking. Very liberal and resentful of America ever since we saved them during WW2. They believed all the propaganda and believed that we were racists. The Swede Gunnar Myrdal was one of the chief theorists of American Desegregation – altho it’s not sure he ever met any actual Blacks outside of the UN. In any case, I personally believe that Europe actually envied us our minorities. They wanted some of their own – so they could do it better than us. And prove once and for all, our corruption and their virute. So importing millions of Muslims fufilled this passion – one of the few passions post war Europe still had.
    Last in importance in my view was the need for labor. In many places this was temporary. For years much of Europe has had double digit unemployment yet the influx did not abate. Sure some of these jobs might not have been what Europeans really wanted to do, but incentives could have been given; even negative ones like a workfare situation instead of welfare for the young and able bodied.
    I think Bat Yeor has written a book by now so you could go directly to her.

  207. Bustin J November 2, 2011 at 12:10 am #

    CF said, “there is some interesting research being done re the treatment of socio/psychopathy using electromagnetics applied to the back of the head…perhaps a targeted EMP would suffice…”
    That will be interesting. Everyone with a hearing aid that doesn’t work.
    It will crowd be good crowd control for when the seniors are rioting for their medicare.

  208. IxNoMor November 2, 2011 at 12:31 am #

    I’m still *banned* here. NICE FSCKING code, JHK…
    Here’s the *solution*!
    The 99% make everyone aware that their vote will be a *write-in*, and wait until the corporations/lobbyists spend their billions on the two-party FAUX-PAS. Then, let all the 99% know who to write in, and *SPELL IT EXACTLY RIGHT*! Just make sure, the write-in candidates aren’t more of the same corporate sell-out *DEMONS*.
    Do it at all levels – federal/state/county. Oust these fscking corporate lobbyist soul-sellers. We don’t need the same black asshole President, without any hope, or any change (at least he quit smoking – LULZ!!!)

  209. Vlad Krandz November 2, 2011 at 3:50 am #

    Your Con looks great. Wish I could go!

  210. lbendet November 2, 2011 at 7:54 am #

    Agreed, Jerry
    It’s called the lunatic fringe which used to be just that. A fringe group. Now they run the country.
    With a corporate media which is more a PR front running the message for the plutocracy, there is little investigative reporting going on and there is little to hold people’s feet to the fire when they say outlandish things.
    Few actually give them solid arguments against their nonsense about cutting taxes and no regulations as a way to create jobs. All anyone has to do is look at the labor costs between the US and third world countries. Once you get the picture, you know those things won’t help against slave labor and currency differentials.
    The Republicans look like they don’t really want to win this time around. They must smell failure from where they sit and don’t want to attach their name to it.
    In the meantime, looks like Europe is in big trouble and it will affect us as well. If they throw us into another recession–that is if the financial sector gets hurt again,(since the rest of us are still in a depression) it’s over for Obama.

  211. ozone November 2, 2011 at 9:30 am #

    “In the meantime, looks like Europe is in big trouble and it will affect us as well. If they throw us into another recession–that is if the financial sector gets hurt again,(since the rest of us are still in a depression) it’s over for Obama.” -LB
    LB,
    I’m not certain we can assume any such thing. Even factoring in the handily gulled and the big-money teevee ad machinery, how much does voting really affect the outcome anymore? It’s those who count the “votes” who will determine that. How much of the country uses electronic voting devices now? To my mind (what there IS of it ;o), those areas are the most suspect. But look who gets “stood up” to vote for, anyway.
    I still can’t figger why Obama would want to preside over the collapse, but then again, I never could fathom the motives of the power-hungry. Life or Death at the wave of the hand…

  212. daofirry2 November 2, 2011 at 9:51 am #

    someone may have already posted this. I haven’t had time to go through all 212 comments. I just wanted to mention that Jack Cafferty compared the futility of the presidential election process, particularly the Republican race, but really all of it, to a NASCAR race. Someone had to post it here. Seriously.
    http://caffertyfile.blogs.cnn.com/2011/11/01/with-the-nation-so-badly-divided-how-much-does-it-really-matter-who-the-president-is/
    Also, it may be worth mentioning, that, at least as of this month, it is rare to hear Cafferty sound THAT much like Mike Ruppert. I know, it will be getting more common, as the days go by.

  213. dale November 2, 2011 at 10:33 am #

    If energy availability goes the other direction, that is, back into a growth pattern, I know that humanity will continue to suffer for it, just as we’ve been suffering more and more each generation since the pattern began. And I will still be here providing an alternative model, living a happy, healthy life in a slow and sane way. There is nothing that could persuade me to leave the good life to go back to the cancerous one, not even a free energy source.
    ——————————————–
    I think my last post was mostly about correcting your inaccurate data about energy use….but I digress.
    I realize that there is value to much of what you believe, I prefer organically grown myself. I know about persticides and the effects, plus I suspect there are effects we haven’t really quantified yet. I also believe in the value of “belief”, in and of itself. What I’ve been trying to suggest is…it’s a good idea to keep what you “believe” and what you “know” as seperate as possible. The former has a tendency to distort the latter.
    Carry on…..I didn’t mean to harrange you anyway, and I will stop.

  214. Patrizia November 2, 2011 at 11:21 am #

    “In the meantime, looks like Europe is in big trouble and it will affect us as well. If they throw us into another recession–that is if the financial sector gets hurt again”
    Funny, in Europe they say exactly the opposite that the economic crisis was the America´s fault.
    But there are also the ones who say that in reality it is a Chinese´s fault.
    I guess it is just the mathematic´s fault.
    If you spend much more than what you earn, sooner or later the minus creates problems, especially if you borrow the money…

  215. wagelaborer November 2, 2011 at 11:28 am #

    Yes, indeed they did.
    There was a Maytag plant around here, and every blue collar worker aspired to someday work there. Good pay, good benefits (relatively speaking).
    And then Whirlpool bought them out, and shut them down.
    What were the workers advised to do? Some of them 50 year old 30 year veterans of the plant?
    Why, go back to school, of course! Yes, go into thousands of dollars of debt to buy themselves a degree, and compete with thousands of 20 y.o. with the same degree and a lot more productive years ahead of them. Who also can’t find jobs.
    It’s sick, it’s wrong, and I agree that it’s only getting worse.

  216. wagelaborer November 2, 2011 at 11:34 am #

    I agree. I looked up sharia law the other day, to see what all the fuss was about.
    Some of it made sense to me. Especially the part about no corporations, just business partnerships, with individual responsiblity for what the business does.
    I have been advocating that for a while.
    Who knew the muslims thought of it first?

  217. k-dog November 2, 2011 at 11:35 am #

    Europe may be in do-do but the Volvo Overseas Delivery program can still get you a free trip to Gothenburg Sweden.
    Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm ????

  218. rippedthunder November 2, 2011 at 11:38 am #

    Hey O3, I guess you wuz lucky this time. My power is just coming back on line. four days no power and people were in a panic. I told ‘em you should be more prepared. Pissed them off to no end!This one goes out to you. The steel work is nice. I have to admit the gin was running low!






  219. wagelaborer November 2, 2011 at 11:44 am #

    Well, I’m not that impressed with your faith-questioning, Prog.
    I’ve mentioned before that I did decide to become religious once, in 7th grade, hassled unmercifully by nasty Christians.
    But the idea of one giant sky god seemed too unbelievable to accept, so I went with the Greco-Roman group.
    Guess what? Those assholes were unimpressed. Only their imaginary friend qualified.
    So I went back to my atheism.
    When you start questioning maybe whether the Greeks were right, or the Norse, or maybe the Indians were right, and every rock and tree has a soul, then I’ll accept that you’re really “questioning”.
    But just going back and forth on the one omnipotent spirit in the sky?
    Not impressed.
    And your internet ass is tight, but vocal.

  220. trippticket November 2, 2011 at 11:49 am #

    Pressing your grace, I thought you might find John Michael Greer’s latest piece interesting. It comes after several posts on the subject, the reading of which might help the language flow more freely, but you seem like a pretty sharp cat.
    http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com/2011/10/trouble-with-binary-thinking.html
    Cheers.

  221. wagelaborer November 2, 2011 at 12:03 pm #

    Although pagans were wiped out centuries ago, we still go through some of their rituals, although they are totally without meaning. Knocking on wood, and decorating pinetrees in winter come to mind.
    I consider “voting” to be in the same category.
    Given a corporate-approved slate of characters to choose from, punching corporate-controlled computer screens, listening to corporate media announce the results, (no longer with the exit polls, which embarrassed them when they differed so widely from the announced results in 2004), we good citizens dutifully troop off and do our duty, so that we may rightfully complain afterwards, unlike those slackers who don’t bother with the meaningless ritual, and so are inferior.

  222. wagelaborer November 2, 2011 at 12:30 pm #

    Have you seen the video of Hilary, laughing over the dead citizens of Libya?
    I watch Obama and Clinton give their speeches on human rights, and protecting civilians, and democracy, and the US standing for all that, and I think – they can’t possibly believe that! How can they say that shit with a straight face, knowing that their policies are meant to do the opposite? Knowing that our police state is no beacon to any informed person of the Earth?
    But the pure evil of someone standing up and mouthing that nonsense, and then laughing in triumph over the corpses – it’s unimaginable to normal non-sociopathic people.

  223. lbendet November 2, 2011 at 12:38 pm #

    Patrizia it is our fault with that crazy monetarism and financial dominance. Yes the Europeans bought it hook, line and sinker–but now they will be affecting us! what goes around….

  224. Vlad Krandz November 2, 2011 at 1:34 pm #

    Atheism is a religion of no religion. And Marxism is a Cult of this religion. And you are a fundamentalist Das Capital thumper.

  225. Nathan November 2, 2011 at 2:14 pm #

    Tripp’s lifeplan works in MANY future, and the current economic environment. So why the disparaging remarks? I have a diverse portfolio for the future (stocks, bonds, annuities,commercila real estate, residential real estate, etc) AND I have a working, soon to be commercial permaculture farm. Think I am a KOOK?
    Jim Rogers says anyone not buying farmland right now is totally blind to the future.
    Look it up, I know you are searching, keep your eyes wide open while you do it and good luck the world is screaming for wisemen.

  226. Boris November 2, 2011 at 2:34 pm #

    “Wouldn’t it make more sense to learn how to grow potatoes and train a mule?” Yes, and thank you.

  227. Boris November 2, 2011 at 2:37 pm #

    Vegan, vegetarian, or simply eating less meat would do a great deal in health, but also preserving dwindling water supplies.

  228. rippedthunder November 2, 2011 at 2:39 pm #

    Good work Nate! I wish I had your resources? I dance as a fast as I can, but circumstances seem to always be one step ahead of me.

  229. Boris November 2, 2011 at 2:52 pm #

    Some call it luck, some call it love, some call it faith.

  230. Boris November 2, 2011 at 2:57 pm #

    Buying some silver may be wise. Hoarding cash has to be one of the most ignorant things to do in this economy. Stocking up on food gradually would be good. Composting, expecially where soils are sandy is like mining for black gold. Mow your lawn to death and compost all the clippings. Rake the yard and dont throw it away, let it rot, and dig it into the soil with a fork.

  231. Nathan November 2, 2011 at 4:26 pm #

    Hey it just happens, work hard save your money, take some risk, get lucky enough to make some hay and then parlay that too. My best friend is a financial adviser (owns his own firm). Once he started working with us the net worth statement goes up every year. I have introduced him to all my friends and the ones that follow through with the plan find themselves enriched, and not just in $$$$ terms but whole life terms, empowerment and the self view as a creator. Check out tripp’s website if you want to see creation happen before your eyes.

  232. Nathan November 2, 2011 at 4:29 pm #

    Hey I am a Vermonter too. Did you survive Irene intact and or recovered since? Our area got mauled, Killington/Wooodstock but we personally had just some driveway repairs at our office.

  233. Nathan November 2, 2011 at 4:35 pm #

    Hate to mess with your head Vlad but interestingly if you had to receive blood from your people, you could die from the blood of many whites. But the blood of a type O black man would save you. (I do not know if blood tranfusions affect penis size but I will Google it)

  234. Nathan November 2, 2011 at 4:37 pm #

    Good start but the more diverse you are the better chance for success. I believe over a million Irishmen perished with your formula.

  235. trippticket November 2, 2011 at 4:37 pm #

    Learning to identify and enjoy a variety of wild foods has brought a certain measure of self-reliance to our lives, too. Working the forgotten Kingdom Fungi into your garden plans is definitely rewarding, and most people wouldn’t think to take your shrooms. Not in the US anyway. Russia might be different story. I’ve certainly enjoyed a regular dose of oyster mushrooms this year.
    At my urging my family in the area has jointly purchased a chipper/shredder to process all the yard prunings and autumn debris into mulch that were formerly being burned. And we’ve been hauling pecan shells and composted cotton gin trash home by the truckload for weeks now. Fall crops are loving it. That’s real wealth in a contractionary world, eh? Definitely agree about hoarding cash! Nonsense.

  236. trippticket November 2, 2011 at 4:40 pm #

    :)!

  237. Nathan November 2, 2011 at 4:40 pm #

    One man’s trash eh’ Tripp?

  238. ctemple November 2, 2011 at 4:43 pm #

    I would call atheism the relgion of ‘we know best’. And we should be allowed to do whatever the fuck we want, because there isn’t any higher power to judge. This turns society into a bunch of crybaby know it alls. That’s what’s wrong, I think,almost everybody thinks they should be allowed to do anything that comes into their Goddamn heads, you’re not allowed to judge me man.
    I have my rights, and my rights consist of whatever the hell I feel doing, and nobody is supposed to judge either, and if they do, they’re racist, sexist, homophobic cave dwellers. I’m allowed to make up shit to suit myself.

  239. trippticket November 2, 2011 at 4:46 pm #

    Treasure indeed. I hope I get the opportunity to see some of the looks on folks’ faces when they realize they’ve been handing over their fortune to humble little me for years, free of charge!
    The leeks, spinach, and Swiss chard I just planted are loving that cotton gin trash.

  240. trippticket November 2, 2011 at 4:50 pm #

    That’s just about the opposite of my experience with atheists, CT. In my experience atheists understand that this is the only life they have, the only planet they get, and they typically do a better job with both than most of the religeuse I’ve met, who exercise divinely-annointed “dominion” over the Earth, and expect eternal life in exchange. In my experience.

  241. trippticket November 2, 2011 at 5:01 pm #

    “Vegan, vegetarian, or simply eating less meat would do a great deal in health, but also preserving dwindling water supplies.”
    Question: would it be better for the planet for the Inuit above the Arctic Circle to build greenhouses with imported materials, plant imported seeds in imported soil, and heat them with imported fuel, so they could raise fruits and vegetables, or to just kill and eat the meat moving around their camp with homemade weapons?
    Always hard to deal in platitudes.

  242. turkle November 2, 2011 at 5:07 pm #

    Is not believing in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy or the Easter Bunny some kind of a religion, too?

  243. turkle November 2, 2011 at 5:12 pm #

    I think Michael Moore makes decent documentaries, which is a genre that I enjoy. Judging by box office receipts, he makes the most popular ones around and by awards, some of the best ones. Does he have an agenda? Of course, but he wears it on his sleeve. I’m not aware of any facts he got wrong in any of his movies, but please apprise me of any corrections. As far as his own lifestyle, that’s 100% his business. I really could care less what he does on his personal time. He sure is good at sending righties like you into a tailspin though, so I think he’s doing something …uh….right.
    Michelle Obama is a good looking woman, in my humble opinion. But a lot of that comes down to personal taste. Some like em big. Some like em small. Some like em black. Some like em white. etc. Please don’t use your own personal taste as some kind of absolute benchmark for everyone else, given that you already said you hate women in general. That’s like saying rock band X sucks, and, oh, btw, I hate all rock music.

  244. turkle November 2, 2011 at 5:14 pm #

    Exactly. I couldn’t have said it better myself.

  245. turkle November 2, 2011 at 5:15 pm #

    I think you can request an unban from JHK via email. That seemed to work for my account, as I’d not really done anything wrong.

  246. turkle November 2, 2011 at 5:18 pm #

    Yeah, because McCain/Palin was such a strong alternative for Democrats….right.

  247. turkle November 2, 2011 at 5:19 pm #

    Atheism is not a religion. It is the absence of and refutation of religion as a way of thinking. To call it a religion is entirely missing the point.

  248. turkle November 2, 2011 at 5:24 pm #

    “This turns society into a bunch of crybaby know it alls.”
    Oh you mean like those know it alls who believe…
    The earth was created 5000 years ago.
    Global warming isn’t real.
    Evolution is only a theory.
    Jesus will come and save the true believers.
    Or were you talking about someone else?

  249. trippticket November 2, 2011 at 5:34 pm #

    You know, I’m pretty sure the days ahead of us will get more physically demanding, and perhaps physically uncomfortable at times, certainly more so than the days of air conditioned Tetris in the cubicle making 40 bucks an hour. But if the bermuda grass is still growing in the veggie beds, and the gnats are still out in their own special brand of annoying force, is it too much to ask that the chickens keep laying? Seems like that could be sort of a package deal to me. Yes, the days are getting shorter and cooler, so I understand that you ladies aren’t going to lay nearly as much for a while, but at least I get a break from the gnats and Bermuda grass too.
    Nope, no such luck…

  250. progress2conserve November 2, 2011 at 5:35 pm #

    “And your internet ass is tight, but vocal.”
    -wage-
    Why thank you, Wage. I bet you’ve got a tight ass too, girlfriend! (assuming the best of a double entendre, heh?)
    As far as:
    “When you start questioning maybe whether the Greeks were right, or the Norse, or maybe the Indians were right, and every rock and tree has a soul, then I’ll accept that you’re really “questioning”.
    But just going back and forth on the one omnipotent spirit in the sky?
    Not impressed.”
    -wage-
    Honestly, Wage, I’ve got a suspicion that the “*best? parts?*” of all the world’s religions (including those of your Indians and Norse)have had something important to offer humanity.
    And I suspect I have the heart of a pre-Christian Pagan; but hidden under a veneer of relaxed Jeffersonian Christianity that will, also, always be with me.
    (I certainly have the gene pool of a pre-Christian Pagan. What the Christain church did to the Pagans and Wiccans in Europe is probably the reason that we Europeans have FUBAR’ed so many things; from 1400 to 2011.)
    Atheism has something to offer, too.
    But when Atheism becomes strident, rejects other beliefs, and begins to seek converts –
    I have to part company with It – and to argue against what looks like an unnecessary forced choice.
    Check out that ArchDruid link that Tripp just posted on artificial dualities. It’s some very thought provoking stuff – that fits in very well into this particular conversation.

  251. anti soak November 2, 2011 at 5:44 pm #

    In LA, Some go to ChakraPani…hes so busy he has 3? secretaries and was featured in People magazine..
    I have friend who have gone..I wouldnt spend 100$ to 400$ for astrology.
    What about Psychics?

  252. Mrs Beasley November 2, 2011 at 5:46 pm #

    “I plan on waking up on the morning of November 7th, 2012, knowing that President Obama was re-elected and I did everything I could to make sure of it.”
    Why? Are you are saying he won’t have fucked thinks up enough by then and he’ll need more time?

  253. anti soak November 2, 2011 at 5:46 pm #

    Vent all ya want you MORON!

  254. progress2conserve November 2, 2011 at 5:47 pm #

    Turkle – always a pleasure to see you posting
    You too, Wage –
    This article just came out TODAY, in HuffPost.
    Pretty good thoughts. Try to read it with an open mind. I will certainly do the same.
    I’ve even bookmarked it to go back and reread after I’ve had a chance to think about it and let it sink in.
    “Taken together, these four elements suggest that Atheists regularly demonstrate attributes — desire for spiritual sustenance, the importance of self-identification, offering their worldview as an alternative to other religious systems, and an assertive if not competitive style of engagement with other religious points of view — usually exhibited by religious folk of all persuasions.” -huffpost-
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-lose/atheism-religion_b_867217.html

  255. ozone November 2, 2011 at 5:48 pm #

    Wholly shit, man, take it easy! (You’re hitting that hot-button with me again.)
    You’re describing sociopathic behavior, not the sober rationalism of most atheists I run across. What are YOU sellin’? Those who consider “A”-theism as a religion, just don’t get it a’tall. Isn’t the miracle of Nature and THE FUCKING UNIVERSE enough for the make-believe delusionistas? Gotta have the endless comfort-and-joy paradigm goin’ on AFTER YOU DIE? Man, oh man, oh man…

  256. Mrs Beasley November 2, 2011 at 5:48 pm #

    “I think you can request an unban from JHK via email. That seemed to work for my account, as I’d not really done anything wrong.”
    Except be one of the most inexhaustible, numb-nuts since Al Gore invented the internet. You

  257. turkle November 2, 2011 at 5:54 pm #

    “Atheism has something to offer, too.”
    Atheism, in and of itself, has nothing to offer. That’s the point. No mumbo jumbo. No false promises. No hope. No grand, simplistic (and false) explanations of everything. No meaningless rituals. No afterlife. No magic man in the sky watching every move you make. No miracles. No forgiveness. Nothing.
    It merely rejects all the baseless religious beliefs that people MADE UP over thousands of years, for whatever reason (Who cares really?). That’s it. As Richard Dawkins put it, most people are atheists already. In other words, Christians believe in their one God, and reject all the others like Zeus and Odin. Atheists just go one step further and reject all of them.
    “when Atheism becomes strident, rejects other beliefs, and begins to seek converts”
    Oh, gee whiz, that sounds exactly like most every religious nutcase I’ve ever met. But allow me to disagree. Forcefully expressing yourself is not stridency. Rejecting other people’s beliefs is perfectly fine, especially when they have no basis in reality. Do we use faith healers or do we go to the doctor? Are you REJECTING faith healing as a way of curing cancer? Seeking converts, eh, I look at it like reverse brainwashing or deprogramming like when someone needs help in quitting one of those cults.
    The real question to me is, do we decide that it is okay to believe completely wacky bulls*** simply because it makes you feel good and a bunch of other people believe the same thing? If you answer in the affirmative, well, guess we’ll just have to part ways on this one. I mean, I could tell you that I’m the Queen of Egypt and that it makes me feel real good to believe this. But for this belief I would be (rightly) ridiculed. Same thing with believing that God sent his son down here to get crucified. As a belief, this is completely off, no matter how many millions profess to belief it, and worthy of ridicule.
    Cheers!

  258. turkle November 2, 2011 at 5:54 pm #

    Uh….ok?

  259. ozone November 2, 2011 at 5:59 pm #

    RT,
    Ha! I hear ya man; always a day late and a dollar short. ;o)
    But the general direction feels about right, so let’s keep sloggin’. (I think we know how to do THAT pretty well… after a lifetime of practice. ;o)
    Ps. “The Folks” don’t like being told about getting down with how it’s gonna be? Awwwww, poor fucking BABIES.
    And, thanks for the reminder …one drink of wine; two drinks of gin…
    (We really should look into the dangerous manufacture of juniper liquor! Uh-oh.)

  260. turkle November 2, 2011 at 6:00 pm #

    Is that the “I know you are but what am I” defense? Nice work.

  261. progress2conserve November 2, 2011 at 6:05 pm #

    Turk – just in case you don’t check the link.
    This Lose guy can really write:
    “….characterizing both organized religion and emergent Atheism as distinct faith traditions invites a measure of mutual regard and even respect that is sorely lacking in present discourse. Professing belief in God, as well as rejecting such belief, each requires equal measures of imagination and nerve. As it turns out, doubt is not the opposite of faith; certainty is. For this reason, we can hold out the hope that religious and non-religious believers alike may recognize in each other similar acts of courage and together reject the cowardice of fundamentalism, whether religious or secular.” -david lose, Huffpost-
    Turkle, you and I have fought this atheist/Atheist battle before on CFN. It may be best if we respectfully disengage.
    And I do believe that our new Mrs. Beasley may be a new alias for TootSie/Lil’Jim/numbnumb/nutsnuts – perhaps. We shall see.
    What say you, Ms. Beasley?

  262. ozone November 2, 2011 at 6:11 pm #

    “I watch Obama and Clinton give their speeches on human rights, and protecting civilians, and democracy, and the US standing for all that, and I think – they can’t possibly believe that! How can they say that shit with a straight face, knowing that their policies are meant to do the opposite? Knowing that our police state is no beacon to any informed person of the Earth?” -Wage
    Yeah, Wage, pretty abhorrent (not to mention bone-chilling). I guess this is the “character” of corporate servants and their overlords.
    Now I may be assuming too much, but I’d say those of the Hillariac persuasion live in such an insulated bubble, that they never hear what WE might think [or have to say to] THEM. Might be a stunner, I don’t know…

  263. turkle November 2, 2011 at 6:23 pm #

    Well, most Americans couldn’t handle hearing about the brutal realities of what it actually takes to supply them with 25% of the world’s resources, so what do you expect?

  264. progress2conserve November 2, 2011 at 6:30 pm #

    “Prog! Read the reviews of “Into the Cannibal’s Pot” – vlad –
    Vlad!! I read them. I also found the author for us.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilana_Mercer
    Smart woman, Ilana – you’d agree with her much more than you would disagree. And she’s Jewish – which might make your head spin a little as you agree.
    Then here’s your other author
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bat_Yeor
    on the coming of Eurabia –
    So – the “truth (Truth?)” does find free voice on the internet.
    =====================
    This one post of yours I linked to was quite reasonable, Vlad:
    – no attacks on “Black” intelligence
    – no attacks on “Black” criminality
    – no desire to move “Whites” out of the South
    Keep up the reasonable tone, and more people might listen to you and think about what you have to suggest – without the reflexive disagreement that shuts down all thought.

  265. insufferable November 2, 2011 at 7:03 pm #

    The idea is: do you see world populations that had/have cars, now stop using cars and only use horses. Horses to go to work, school, and shop. I don’t think most societies, like Russia, are now only using horses, and candles to light the house or using wood burning stoves to heat homes. I of course, don’t mean that there are no people who use horses, candles or wood burning stoves. I meant the ENTIRE country is not going to be using them. I don’t think that is ever going to happen. Even if we run out of fuel, even if we run out of electricity. We will move ahead with another more advanced technology.
    Think about it. Since Civilization started, it has been a progression forward. Unless the civilization had completely disappeared. Take the Egyptians, they were a very great civilization, and they have stopped building pyramids to bury their kings (leaders).
    Weapons: we no longer use spears to kill each other (I of course means entire countries) there will always be groups of primitive people who still use spears of course, but not countries that have “progressed”.
    Food: We will no longer revert to hunter gatherer societies, because we know how to farm. If we can’t farm, then many will die before they go hunting and gathering berries. But technology will enable us to move ahead in that area too.

  266. insufferable November 2, 2011 at 7:04 pm #

    funny:)

  267. turkle November 2, 2011 at 7:07 pm #

    “The world has NEVER gone backward.”
    The so-called Dark Ages was the entire Western world going backwards from more advanced classical civilizations, unless I’ve misinterpreted every piece of historical information about that era that I’ve come across.

  268. asoka. November 2, 2011 at 7:18 pm #

    “The world has NEVER gone backward.”
    “The so-called Dark Ages was the entire Western world going backwards…”
    ===============
    Turkle, the Dark Ages in Europe does not equal the WORLD going backwards.
    At the time of the Dark Ages in Europe the rest of the WORLD was going forward… in India, in China, in Africa, in the Middle East.
    The world was not going backward, only Europe.

  269. turkle November 2, 2011 at 7:19 pm #

    Technology has allowed humans to destroy most of the life in the ocean, poison lakes and rivers, create huge radioactive dead zones from nuclear fallout, cause the extinction of thousands of species, create a huge garbage island in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, melt the polar ice caps, accelerate the Greenhouse Effect in the atmosphere, cause desertification across huge swathes of formerly arable land, etc.
    So, given the unintended and often severe consequences, how much more “progress” do you think the biosphere can take before humans can no longer inhabit it? Sometimes, I think the ultimate fate of civilization and technology is to eventually wipe out humanity.
    Or do you think new technology will always solve the problems that it creates?
    For further reading….
    Thomas Homer-Dixon, The Ingenuity Gap
    and
    http://www.ascentofhumanity.com/
    (just what comes to mind)
    Bye now.

  270. sevenmmm November 2, 2011 at 7:21 pm #

    “Either money becomes extremely scarce or the money that’s there becomes worthless”! Sure, doesn’t matter what the food and fuel prices are if you hadn’t any money! Nor if there wasn’t any food or fuel available.
    Either way, goods and services will be in short supply. I grew potatoes this year. And tomatoes, peppers, turnips, broccoli, cauliflower, carrots, radishes. Harvested pears, peaches, and apples too.

  271. turkle November 2, 2011 at 7:24 pm #

    I said “Western world” my dear. But thanks for the correction. :)
    The idea that technology always progresses positively and can never go backwards is pretty absurd and easily disprovable.
    If there was a worldwide nuclear war, wiping us all out, would a bunch of smoking craters where cities once stood be a badge of technological progress?
    Or do you not count the possibly hideous consequences of certain technologies as part of the total equation?

  272. turkle November 2, 2011 at 7:32 pm #

    Oh, I forgot to mention the most entertaining scenarios, like the Gray Goo problem. Or what about Skynet?

  273. george November 2, 2011 at 7:33 pm #

    I had the opportunity to visit both the Occupy Detroit encampment in downtown Detroit, Michigan and the Occupy Windsor encampment across the river. Talk about depressing! All that was missing was the music of Exene Cervenka or Laurie Anderson to make the mood even grimmer. I’ll give the Occupy protesters credit. Anyone willing to risk last week’s lousy weather and angry Tea Parties to make their point has got courage. Unfortunately, I don’t think occupying the deserted confines of downtown Detroit or Windsor is the appropriate location for their message. Instead I propose they occupy the Somerset Collection or the Bloomfield Hills Country Club, where the 1% goes to shop and play, if they want to really get their message out.

  274. lbendet November 2, 2011 at 8:04 pm #

    Speaking of technology, Turkle I just heard that there is detectable radioactivity in the (Japanese)Toyota imports on the east and West coast. Oh, man and we love sake!–imagine that.

  275. turkle November 2, 2011 at 8:13 pm #

    That’s kinda cool. I’ve always wanted a glow in the dark car that gives me testicular cancer.

  276. turkle November 2, 2011 at 8:14 pm #

    This is really worth a read….
    http://www.ascentofhumanity.com/chapter1-1.php
    Apropos to the above conversation about the progress of technology and faith therein.

  277. rippedthunder November 2, 2011 at 8:49 pm #

    Yo 03 , I still nave a decent stash of home brew and vino. My next gig is a still? I have the tank and copper coil!!@!@ Uhohuhoh watch list!!!!!revinuers???? 5 bucks a gallon sheeeeeet!!!!!!

  278. anti soak November 2, 2011 at 9:29 pm #

    What of Communities already in steep decline?
    How will they fare in TLE?
    Most Black males dont graduate HS and the entry level jobs maybe are going to wetbacks workin for less than minimum!
    Unemployment among Black males is 40%?

  279. Vlad Krandz November 2, 2011 at 10:41 pm #

    Oh Vlad, you’ve done it again.

  280. Qshtik November 2, 2011 at 10:45 pm #

    I’m sure I won’t be endearing myself to Jimbo when I point out that it’s not “Wretched refuse yearning to be free,” but “huddled masses yearning to breathe free.” If someone has already mentioned this, I apologize for the duplication.
    Every day I would click on my CFN Favorite to see if the ship had arrived for the return trip from the Isle of Elba and today, for reasons unknown, it did. The frigging “Forbidden 403 Error” has such an arcane and permanent look to it.
    There’s no sense in trying to catch up on all the fuck-ups of the past two weeks so let me just mention, in addition to Jim’s misquote above, at 5:12PM today Turkle said “I really could care less” when, of course, he meant he “really couldn’t care less.”
    Now, let’s see if I get banned for clicking SUBMIT.

  281. Vlad Krandz November 2, 2011 at 10:49 pm #

    Get serious! The whole point of Ilana’s book is Black idiocy and criminality.
    Yes she’s Jewish. She should know how big a role Jews played in the downfall of South Africa – and how they are doing it here too – altho here, Blacks are just one of their weapons. But don’t worry – she’s still of the tribe. As the White Nationalist commentator pointed out, she’s trying to make Israel out to be the eiptome of Western Culture. So now they need us or now they are us. Before we were just shit. She threw him off her site for bringing up these sensitive issues. Typical Jewish behavior.
    Glad you liked the Bat Yeor. She (also a Jew) is an important researcher. The Jews appear now to be very divided on how to deal with the West. Some of them are still gung ho on bringing in as many minorities as possible to hamstring us. The wiser ones like these two have realized that without us, they are doomed.

  282. charliefoxtrot November 2, 2011 at 10:56 pm #

    FIRST: Q! glad to see you man! hope you re back for good, it s been a mess without you

  283. myrtlemay November 2, 2011 at 11:22 pm #

    Yeah, Bean said he’d be back. Leave it for one old codger to predict the behavior or another old codger. Go figure!

  284. Vlad Krandz November 2, 2011 at 11:37 pm #

    You can’t prove that there is no God. Thus your convicition is just as irrational as our’s. You have a huge axe to grind trying to prove the Absolute Nothingness (sounds like Buddhism) of God.
    I’m not sure you’re smart enough to understand this but: the real purely rational stance is the “don’t know” of Agnosticism.

  285. Vlad Krandz November 2, 2011 at 11:43 pm #

    Psychologically it plays the same role for its adherents that religon does. Ever go to a Marxist group? Feel the cultic energy? The strong leader, the group think, the crushing of individuality? Just like the Moonies. Women’s Studies, same thing.

  286. asoka. November 3, 2011 at 12:31 am #

    “Or do you not count the possibly hideous consequences of certain technologies as part of the total equation?”
    ————-
    Interesting.
    When I hear the phrase “the western WORLD going backwards,” the first thing I think of is not technology.
    I guess the first thing I think of are things like social organization, food gathering, distribution and sharing.
    Don’t know if you also consider that to be technology.

  287. BeantownBill November 3, 2011 at 12:33 am #

    In the spirit of the return of Q, I looked up the definition of the word “codger”. I was ready to take exception to being called an old codger, although old I may be. But, lo and behold, my dictionary defines codger as “a somewhat eccentric man, especially an old one.” Sigh! So I guess I really am an old codger.
    So, what does that make you, an old codgeress or perhaps codgress?
    BTW, the dictionary says codger may be an alteration of the obsolete word “cadger”, a peddler.

  288. anti soak November 3, 2011 at 1:02 am #

    Where does the Internationalism end?
    geez…..
    $20M of your tax dollars spent on Pakistani Sesame Street
    and Washington has committed to spend $7.5 billion in civilian aid in Pakistan over five years. a country that hates us!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  289. Vlad Krandz November 3, 2011 at 1:33 am #

    Francis Collins, the head of the World Genome Project is a practicing Christian. He crushed your punk Hitchens in debate. Hitchens is a witty and well informed men of letters and current affairs. But in the realms of science and philosophy, a lightweight who doesn’t know it.

  290. Vlad Krandz November 3, 2011 at 1:40 am #

    Best response from a liberal yet. You admit biological truth and use it to effect in debate. There is a whole serious of books about blood type effecting what you should eat and even personality traits. The Japanese took the latter seriously at least for a while at the level of pop culture.
    So blood types as the basis of human categorization – races! It wouldn’t work as well as what we have now in terms of broad biological, psychological and cultural affinities, but it’s a valid point of view to a limited extent.

  291. turkle November 3, 2011 at 5:06 am #

    Vlad, you are just trotting out the same decrepit non-arguments that have been shot down and destroyed ad infinitum. Just because I can’t prove a negative doesn’t mean that I should be completely undecided about the proposition. I’m pretty damn sure that Santa Claus does not exist, nor his workshop filled with elves, or the flying reindeer and sleigh. Of course, I can’t prove with complete certainty that he isn’t up there in the North Pole, getting ready for Christmas. (Perhaps he’s invisible or only children can see him. Maybe he inhabits an alternate dimension.) But I’m pretty damn certain that there is no Santa. (let’s say 99.9999% certain) That’s the same feeling I have about this silly God business. People made it up, just like parents tell their kids myths about Santa.
    At any rate, your rather crude argument for agnosticism is absurd. I do not have time to entertain any and all beliefs of made-up entities simply because I can’t construct an air tight logical proof of their non-existence in a few paragraphs. Let’s consider the magic pink invisible unicorn currently reading over your shoulder. Are you pretty certain it doesn’t exist or are you on the fence about it?
    As for your name dropping of Francis Collins, I could really care less what he thinks about religion. He’s clearly got it all wrong if he thinks some invisible man in the sky invented the world as his plaything. As a scientific person, he should be ashamed of himself for believing in such hocus pocus. And I’m sure Hitchens destroyed him. He pretty much buries anyone in a debate about religion, mostly because religious types are generally incapable of logical argument on that topic. They go with fuzzy feelings and faith as their “proof” of God (just ask them). Maybe you have a link or something so I can watch Hitchens get “destroyed” myself, rather than, you know, take your word for it (which isn’t worth crappola..no offense).

  292. turkle November 3, 2011 at 5:17 am #

    Atheism is a label imposed by religious types to make those who don’t subscribe to their fantasies seem like an out group. It is a modern version of the old “heretic” label. But absence of belief in an entity is generally not considered a belief system, especially when said entity is proved by its adherents “faith.” Otherwise, we’d be overflowing in names for groups who don’t believe in any old thing, like the People Who Don’t Believe Vlad Is Being Watched By An Invisible Pink Unicorn Right Now Society. I think we both belong to that club, actually. (Hey, I found something on which we can both agree!)
    And as a substitute for religion, atheism is pretty damn poor. It has no meetings, no hand-holding, no singing, no charities, no tax exceptions, no missions to poor African countries, and no warm fuzzy feelings about going to heaven with the harp-playing angels. So tell me again about how it fulfills the same psychological purpose? As usual, I think you’ve just got your head up your arse. (Atheism and Marxism and Women’s Studies….oh my!)

  293. turkle November 3, 2011 at 5:35 am #

    How can Pakistan hate anyone? Countries don’t have feelings.

  294. turkle November 3, 2011 at 5:37 am #

    Don’t get high on your own supply! ;-)

  295. charliefoxtrot November 3, 2011 at 6:52 am #

    yeah what he said! eloquent and witty (that means smart, vlad) and i m still chuckling…you have converted me at least to the Pink Unicorn Society- not so sure about vlad; he is partial white unicorns, as he will admit…

  296. charliefoxtrot November 3, 2011 at 6:56 am #

    my vote is for ‘codgerette’…hi myrtle

  297. rippedthunder November 3, 2011 at 6:59 am #

    Welcome back Napolean!

  298. ozone November 3, 2011 at 7:53 am #

    Q.,
    Should that happen again, try shutting off your modem. (Not “reset”, but unpowered/off.) Go have a cup o’ joe and wander the hacienda for 5 or 10 minutes, then power it back up and see if that does it. (Worked for me anyhoo.)
    Good luck and good eats!

  299. ozone November 3, 2011 at 8:10 am #

    “Atheism is a label imposed by religious types to make those who don’t subscribe to their fantasies seem like an out group.” -turk
    Yep, lack of belief should indicate that it’s not a point of contention; that it’s of no concern and something that need not occupy the mind. Being pestered doesn’t endear the pesterers to the pestees. (Sorry Q., made-up words are fun sometimes. ;o)
    Every group (ESPECIALLY of the religious stripe) needs their “enemy” to justify their existence and cohesion. ‘Murkin Krishans are really good at this tactic, but then again, look at the constituency to be indoctrinated! Piece o’ cake. Turn on the 700 Club and let’s pretend that gawd luvs us as much as that rich “pastor” luvs our tithes…

  300. ozone November 3, 2011 at 8:23 am #

    …Out of the gawd-bubble and into the fire.
    Greece is going down, one way or t’other.
    The Papandreou Ploy [as it will come to be known] to absolve himself of responsibility for his country’s economic collapse was pretty laughable.
    Referendum and general-firings. Oopsie.
    Others (in Europe and ‘Murka) are steamed that the deal didn’t go down, and that the “assets” might soon be revealed as bogus bets on the Brooklyn Bridge.
    Force-feeding is “on the table”, as the asshats say.
    Somebody’s been having conversations with the military (or they’ve been conversing amongst themselves), and that seems to be when the big fun always starts.

  301. lbendet November 3, 2011 at 8:38 am #

    Turkle,
    Thanks for the Ascent of Humanity link. That’s one for JHK. He should take a look at it.
    I guess one belief system replaces another.
    As I have often said, we are one sad little critter and the only one on earth that has no clue what we’re doing here. Every other creature works withing it’s environs and contributes to it in some way. Sure the physical world is a tough place to survive, but the more we try to free ourselves of it the more blow-back we will suffer.
    Case in point is the weather and the subsequent power outages we are experiencing. Many people living in the burbs of NYC are realizing that this is the new reality. Having grown up in the area, I can only say I never saw so much system failure every times there’s wind in the mix.
    No matter how much progress we think we’ve made, there’s always unintended consequences of how our activities affect the natural world. We’ve waged the war and we are not going to win.

  302. charliefoxtrot November 3, 2011 at 8:50 am #

    O3- whazzat (vernacular, Q no need for correction) about military? you mean intervention, perhaps to make greece pay up? i ve heard nothing- admittedly i tend to avoid M$M; and wouldn t expect any reporting from them anyway unless after the fact…any clarification would be appreciated

  303. RAW November 3, 2011 at 9:16 am #

    I feel sorry for Jim, having to travel all over the world and put up with such inept service and all those derelict airports. Fortunately for Jim, when the oil and credit soon run out, those days will be over.

  304. ozone November 3, 2011 at 9:47 am #

    Sorry, CF,
    I’m sure I gave the impression of “outside” shenanigans, but it was “internal”. (Impending military coup, or the suspicion of one.) Now, as to who would be instigating said shenanigans is always up for investigation, no?
    I don’t think the Greeks would take too kindly to a military occupation by foreign troops. (That seems kinda universal. ;o) The Nazis weren’t very welcome, as I recall.

  305. ozone November 3, 2011 at 9:54 am #

    …At any rate, “the markets” are not liking these little shocks of instability. I can’t even begin to guess how this [glimmer of sovereign default and political turmoil] will be frantically obscured by the blizzard of bullshit we’ll hear shortly.

  306. charliefoxtrot November 3, 2011 at 10:30 am #

    aaaahh, bach! that makes sense- although can you imagine the shit-storm that would arise? the people don t seem to be in favor of much more in the way of shenannigans…time to break out the brooms (read torches & pitchforks) eh, cartman?

  307. charliefoxtrot November 3, 2011 at 10:33 am #

    i call upon our Q-check to tell us if there should be one or two ‘n’s…

  308. ozone November 3, 2011 at 10:55 am #

    Oh, that would sound nicer as: “a bodacious, bumptious, blinding blizzard of bullshit”.
    Fan’s a-whirrin'; fecal matter’s a-flyin’.

  309. bossier22 November 3, 2011 at 11:14 am #

    At the risk of being on the watch list, I have a nice copper still. Unfortunately, I don’t have a recipe I am confident in or experience in brewing. I have been studying on it and the brewing/ fermentation seems to be the hardest part if you want a good product. Any suggestions for me.

  310. dale November 3, 2011 at 11:24 am #

    The point of learning to think in ternaries, in turn, is not that ternaries are good and binaries are bad; it’s that learning the trick of ternary thinking widens your range of options.
    ——————————————-
    Pretty much what I’ve been trying to get across here for about four years -“don’t limit you options”. Well said, and thanks for the link, reminds me of the Buddhist saying; “you don’t have to believe everything you think” The greatest value I’ve learned from years of meditation is to introduce a little space between “me” and my thought, so I don’t confuse the two.
    Greer is a genuine thinker, even if he is a little academic in his approach. Everyone here should read that posting IMO, so I’ll repost the link.
    http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com/2011/10/trouble-with-binary-thinking.html

  311. dale November 3, 2011 at 11:27 am #

    So why the disparaging remarks? I have a diverse portfolio for the future (stocks, bonds, annuities,commercila real estate, residential real estate, etc) AND I have a working, soon to be commercial permaculture farm. Think I am a KOOK?
    ——————————————-
    No, and I never suggested Tripp was either. Open mindedness IS key IMO, and something that has to often been in short supply around here. Nothing wrong with a spirited exchange of ideas however, that’s what led to that post Tripp left for me.

  312. dale November 3, 2011 at 11:34 am #

    Atheism is not a religion. It is the absence of and refutation of religion as a way of thinking.
    ——————————————-
    I think what he is trying to say is that many atheists become as closed minded as there counterpart, turning non-belief into a belief system. It does happen….and frequently. For example, many atheists turn science into a religion, not understanding its limitations.

  313. dale November 3, 2011 at 11:43 am #

    So, given the unintended and often severe consequences, how much more “progress” do you think the biosphere can take before humans can no longer inhabit it?
    ——————————————
    Beneficial I think, to keep in mind Humans are not some alien from another planet (at least as far as I know) “WE” are part of the ecosystem as well, and that system will deal with us when it becomes necessary…..or we will change as it becomes necessary, since adaptation is are secret to survival.
    I’m not saying you shouldn’t recycle your beer cans, (I do) just that you should take the whole “save the world” argument with a grain of salt. Some technology is good….and some bad; and which it is, is mostly a matter of conventional not inherent values.

  314. Nathan November 3, 2011 at 11:45 am #

    The book is eat right for your type, tried it but not too impressed. The best food for everyone is from your own garden and not cooked if you can handle it.
    BLood type along the Japanese model works for me, the race thing is not a reliable predictor in my expereince as a business owner. I have met lazy mexicans, brilliant blacks and impoverished Jews so not a very solid model.
    The liberal handle you tried to smear me with, I assume that is an insult? As I have never been associated with any party, am a rock solid lone hunter and beleive the only thing you ever give someone is a job please expalin what a liberal is so I can decide if I am one.

  315. wagelaborer November 3, 2011 at 11:52 am #

    As Noam Chomsky frequently points out, whenever a country actually does something democratic (like letting the people decide whether to let the banks own the place) the powers that be (or, as they like to call themselves, the “international community”) screams like stuck pigs.
    How dare the Greeks hold a referendum! How dare they let the people democractically (from the Greek word for rule of the people) decide their own future!
    It would be hysterically funny watching the leaders of the “free world” scream about the impudence of Papandreu, if it wasn’t just another sickening example of their hypocrisy.
    The “international community”, which ranges from the US and Israel, at times, to the US, Israel, and NATO, at others, would surely be pariahs to the non-international community, if humans were rational creatures, given to understanding events without emotional manipulation.

  316. Nathan November 3, 2011 at 11:56 am #

    I knew you were for real or I would not have interacted with you. I went to a Bioneers Conference and met a bunch of Tripps. What Tripp is onto is part of the future for sure and I admire the effort he puts into it. Tripp could make better $$ right now in the hydrocarbon economy but is pioneering instead. My apologies if I offended you Dale.

  317. asoka. November 3, 2011 at 11:59 am #

    TRIPP: learning the trick of ternary thinking widens your range of options.
    ——————————————-
    DALE: Pretty much what I’ve been trying to get across here for about four years -“don’t limit you options”.
    —————————–
    WHITMAN: I am large. I contain multitudes.
    ——————–
    I’ve been pushing expanding CFN consciousness to include other points of view for more than four years, and being called names for my efforts. Now that Greer is saying it, should we call him schizophrenic, too?

  318. wagelaborer November 3, 2011 at 11:59 am #

    Back in the 80s, when I was working in a San Jose nursery, at a hospital on the east side, I heard that the US military was working on a bio-weapon targeting groups by their blood types.
    This was when Reagan was allowing millions of Vietnamese to enter the country.
    We tested blood types on the moms, checking for rH incompatibilites.
    Most Vietnamese seemed to be B+, while most Americans were O+.
    Great! I’m B+. That means I’m targeted with the Vietnamese, if they ever fall out of favor again.
    On the other hand, if the plan is to thin the herd in the US, I may be OK.

  319. Nathan November 3, 2011 at 12:01 pm #

    Greece is so screwed. If they don’t take the current deal they can’t pay their bills or borrow a dollar starting the next day. If they take the deal they owe the IMF a pile of $$ they will never be able to repay and become a ward of the New World Order. USA is about 2 years behind but our fate is already sealed too.

  320. wagelaborer November 3, 2011 at 12:15 pm #

    I read the article, and what I got out of it was that ternary thinking was an exercise that you did to show yourself that there are more than only two sides to many problems, and that it was exhausting to try to use it on every damn thing that came along.
    It reminds me of people pointing out before the US invaded Iraq that the two “sides” presented in the corporate media were very limited. The “right” said – “let us invade, bomb and take over their country”. The “left” (as defined by the corporate media) said “No, let us continue to starve them into submission”.
    The real left, the ones that called for stopping the siege, and leaving the Iraqis alone? That view was not considered in the mass media.
    You have a habit of presenting the opposite side of a two sided argument. I don’t think that’s what he had in mind.
    But I could be wrong.

  321. wagelaborer November 3, 2011 at 12:20 pm #

    Or, they could do like Argentina or Iceland, and say screw you all, we’re doing our own thing.
    Also, Malaysia, as I recall.
    Funny that you should bring that up, in a discussion about binary thinking.
    The US could issue its own currency, instead of borrowing it, and use it to pay people to do useful work, loan it at no interest to actual people, instead of Wall St., and so put people to work without involving runnning money through giant corporations that have proven to have no interest in 1) performing useful services or 2)employing American labor.

  322. Buck Stud November 3, 2011 at 12:24 pm #

    Nathan,
    Please tell me how the world’s most lethal, vicious and experienced – spell that SEASONED – is somehow analogous with Greece?
    The U.S.A still has more than a few of these types left:
    http://videosift.com/video/George-C-Scott-as-General-Patton-Opening-Speech

  323. Nathan November 3, 2011 at 12:29 pm #

    Seasoned vicious what?

  324. progress2conserve November 3, 2011 at 12:31 pm #

    “Get serious! The whole point of Ilana’s book is Black idiocy and criminality.
    Yes she’s Jewish.”
    – vlad –
    Vlad, we’re not in South Africa. I’m in Georgia and you are in Washington, Oregon, or Idaho somewhere. I haven’t read her book. You haven’t either. One of us needs to – rather than go by reviews.
    BUT – I very much doubt that Ms. Ilana Mercer leads every chapter and most every point – as you and your white separatist organizations tend to, by saying one of the following:
    1. Blacks are inferior genetically
    2. Blacks are genetically prone to criminality
    3. Blacks are genetically inferior
    The “standard?” counter-argument is that – Blacks present higher criminality, etc – because of slavery, Jim Crow, etc. etc.
    You need to consider the possibility that the “STANDARD?” COUNTER-ARGUMENT IS CORRECT!!
    Because otherwise, Vlad, you’re not helping any of us where we live, now.
    =========================
    Bottom line –
    Your vision of a “White” region of the former US.
    And a “Black” region of the former US.
    Has a probability of occurrence of near ZERO.
    =======================
    Stopping or slowing LEGAL and ILLEGAL immigration into the US – now, that WILL eventually have to occur for global environmental reasons – unless the whole World falls apart first.
    White supremacist posturing in the US makes examination of immigration assume unnecessary connotations.
    End of rant.
    Thank you.

  325. Buck Stud November 3, 2011 at 12:38 pm #

    Sorry Nathan, I omitted military. My point is this: when things get dire enough, the country with the most lethal military will eagerly go to war. That’s why the Greek comparison is false.
    Do you doubt this?

  326. lbendet November 3, 2011 at 12:38 pm #

    Wage,
    About the Greek situation. Yeah, they are playing fear factor here once again. If the Greeks don’t go along with the giant global fraud, all our economies will fall apart.
    Sound familiar? That’s exactly what they said about TBTF banks in 2008. That’s why they got in total $23 Trillion and were not broken up, only to set in motion Bubble 2.
    Would be great if they were to follow Iceland and help push this criminal system over the cliff.
    With so many US citizens disenfranchized, I would say many have nothing to lose.
    Oh, but our talking heads would…

  327. Nathan November 3, 2011 at 12:40 pm #

    Hey Vlad is the Gerogia boy/girl right are you espousing segregation? How old are you out of curiosity? I was in school in Athens Georgia when schools were desegregated. Pretty rough times.
    I do like the idea of the USA splitting into sovereign states though as I hate to see places like Texas have alot of votes in the House when VT has only 1. So I would vote yes for disolving the union but don’t get the point of segregation.

  328. charliefoxtrot November 3, 2011 at 12:40 pm #

    wage- what do you think about a universal credit system whereby one volunteers through a labor exchange doing something appropriate to your skill level/experience- of course there would have to be graduated levels of return and time spent, tied to the difficulty or onerousness (Q?) of said job…i know this is a bare-bones description of the concept, and wouldn t be easy to “sell” ha ha, but the point would be to make more of a level playing field in terms of what people have being directly related to what they are willing to do for others; and would eliminate the entire class of speculators and money changers who have fucked everything up royally already for those of us who do work for a living…gotta love that part, huh? gimme your 2%

  329. lbendet November 3, 2011 at 12:42 pm #

    ps,
    Just got a message today from another retoucher I worked with a few years ago where we were all laid off that he was just laid off from a place he had been working at for a few years.
    Just another example of how dysfunctional business is.

  330. dale November 3, 2011 at 12:46 pm #

    You have a habit of presenting the opposite side of a two sided argument. I don’t think that’s what he had in mind.
    —————————————–
    My argument with Asoka has to do with his admission here once, that he said things and took positions here he didn’t really believe in, just to get people all excited.
    IMO, that’s the worst thing about the internet and blogs, too much bullshit…so why take pride in adding to it?
    If you can’t be sincere, then just read and keep quiet. Now….some people might be better off keeping quiet even when they are sincere, but that’s another issue.

  331. Nathan November 3, 2011 at 12:46 pm #

    DOn’t even see the correlation BS. If the Chinese opt out of the next Treasury auction what are you gonna do shoot them? I quit buying treasury bills after the Tea Party republicans decided the USA could logically default on its debt. If the USA can’t float the Treasury auctions we end up short by about the combined amount of the entire defense budget and the entire Social Security budget for any given year. You wont be able to afford to buy a bullet to shoot the Chinese with.

  332. progress2conserve November 3, 2011 at 12:48 pm #

    “I think what he is trying to say is that many atheists become as closed minded as there (sic) counterparts, turning non-belief into a belief system. It does happen….and frequently. For example, many atheists turn science into a religion, not understanding its limitations.”
    -dale-
    BINGO, Dale, that’s EXACTLY what I was trying to say.

  333. wagelaborer November 3, 2011 at 12:50 pm #

    Sounds like socialism, CFT!
    Yes, labor is the source of all wealth, and exchanging labor is a good idea, since our complex society could provide a very comfortable living for all, if all contributed to the work.
    We, of course, would have to localize, and downsize, so that we could live within our plantetary means.
    But most of us are happy right now, with food, shelter and entertainment.
    Only the 1% seems to be insatiable in their greed. So we need to change our society so that the sociopaths can’t profit from the tendency of the rest of us to get along to go along, happy with our beer and TV, while they destroy the planet.

  334. Nathan November 3, 2011 at 12:52 pm #

    No matter what your life view is watch the movie
    What the Bleep do We really know? Quantum physics bends all minds.

  335. Nathan November 3, 2011 at 12:56 pm #

    Alot of the 99% pay for cable TV, make up, 4 wheelers,Music CD’s, internet, restauraunt meals, etc and then complain there is no money for health care or savings or….. I believe that is entitlement or greed also.

  336. Funzel November 3, 2011 at 12:59 pm #

    Testing,one,two,three.Just checking if my funzel is still lit or “banned”.

  337. wagelaborer November 3, 2011 at 1:02 pm #

    The computer I’m using opens up to MSN news.
    How depressing! Most of it is fluff, referring to people I’ve never heard of, including sports and movie stars.
    Today, though, they had an article on the Oakland protests, saying that a few of the “protesters” started a riot last night.
    See, I immediately think “agent provocateur”, but I read some of the comments, and I really think that Americans are idiots, and there is no hope.
    But maybe it’s controlled, because a lot of the comments were “collapsed by the community” (which is funny, if you think about it. A General Assembly of commenters? Except that the General Assemblies allow all speech). Then I would read reactions to the disappeared comments, and it sounded like the “collapsed comments” were supportive of the Ocuupy Movement.

  338. charliefoxtrot November 3, 2011 at 1:06 pm #

    a friend of mine pointed out once that if you tell a little kid that there s a great big invisible dude in the sky who is watching everyone, and is in charge of making everything happen, then it s pretty hard to convince him to think for himself once he has “growed up”…i thought immediately that (a) it sounds like a pretty astute observation of events; and (b) how incredibly thankful i am that my parents left me alone to be a kid, and only told me what they believed when i was old enough to ask questions about god, myself… not that it made much difference, but they had evolved to a mix of southern baptist, zen buddhist, and respect for Mother Earth…neat, huh? oh and i don t know what the proper greek or latin word might be for ‘i don t give a fuck’ is, but when i tried to get religion as a teenager, i couldn t get past the hypocracy of the first page: “all the plants AND ALL THE HERBS are yours to use for food and medicine, to benefit from” then they make you put your hand on this book and swear by it, when you are in trouble for following orders??!! FUCK OFF!! oh, did i fail to mention we were “hippies”? any way, i guess i can safely say it didn t quite take…sorry for the rant, CF’dN, that s obviously a nerve for me…

  339. anti soak November 3, 2011 at 1:06 pm #

    Radiation……..
    Formerly I bought Dulse, I see its not on the shelves and I was told…’We dont want to bring in Japanese food Imports’!

  340. anti soak November 3, 2011 at 1:08 pm #

    Hitchens is similar to Jared Diamond, a ‘name’ writer who has debatable facts and theories.

  341. wagelaborer November 3, 2011 at 1:11 pm #

    Yes, a lot of the 99% pay for things that I disapprove of personally.
    However, that is not why they can’t afford health care or savings.
    If there were 100 people in the US and the GNP were $100, the bottom 40 people would share 20 cents, or 1/2 cent apiece.
    Say they took that 1/2 cent and bought meth. Well! That would, indeed, be a silly and wasteful use of their half cent.
    It would, however, NOT be why they are poor.
    That would be the $80 going to the few on top.

  342. asoka. November 3, 2011 at 1:15 pm #

    dale said: “My argument with Asoka has to do with his admission here once, that he said things and took positions here he didn’t really believe in, just to get people all excited. ”
    ===================
    Basically you are correct, but I would rephrase it a bit.
    “Asoka takes positions he doesn’t believe in and says things just to get people to go beyond thought.”
    Beliefs are all in the head. Beliefs are all just mind-stuff. It does not matter what you believe. The Buddhist goal, which I share, is to reach a state of no-mind, beyond beliefs.
    So “taking positions” and “saying things” in which I do not believe is just one way I am trying to shake loose from the beliefs that were drilled into me through a religious and cultural conditioning all grounded in Aristotelian logic. (“a thing cannot be both A and not A”) I have openly promoted epistemological pluralism.
    I was honest enough to make this clear. I am not trying to manipulate anyone into believing anything. Just the opposite.
    I am trying to become a joke unto myself and believe I am succeeding. Another belief… see?
    Peak oil, immigration, Greece, Iceland, debt represented by electrons on a computer screen… all part of a cosmic joke. I have not forgotten how to laugh.

  343. wagelaborer November 3, 2011 at 1:17 pm #

    And if oil were priced accurately, there would go the four-wheelers!
    And I, for one, would be thrilled.
    Interestingly, we used to get a lot of four-wheeler crashes from the southern counties, because we have orthopedic services at my hospital. Total idiots will put their three year old on a four wheeler with their eight year old, because they’re drinking beer and it seems like a good idea.
    The last one I remember was someone who complained about having to drive all the way to our hospital, because they couldn’t afford the gas.
    So now they can’t afford the gas for the four-wheelers either? Or, when they crash, they just go have it splinted at the local hospital, and follow up later?
    I don’t know. I haven’t even thought about it, until you brought it up.

  344. wagelaborer November 3, 2011 at 1:24 pm #

    Turkle already answered that simplistic argument, so favored among the religious –
    “And as a substitute for religion, atheism is pretty damn poor. It has no meetings, no hand-holding, no singing, no charities, no tax exceptions, no missions to poor African countries, and no warm fuzzy feelings about going to heaven with the harp-playing angels. So tell me again about how it fulfills the same psychological purpose? ”
    So where do atheists gather weekly to do the above in the name of science?

  345. charliefoxtrot November 3, 2011 at 1:27 pm #

    hey boss, you might check out the PBS doc, “the last one”, about an actual ‘shiner who got caught by the revenooers, in east tennesse i believe, back in 94…the filmmakers somehow got permission to make one last run, presumably for posterity even if you don t learn everything you need, it is eddifying and entertaining…

  346. balkan November 3, 2011 at 1:27 pm #

    Religion.
    Visitors of this site, per my understanding, are aware of bleak human landscape of endless consumers/shopers in this country. Majority of them go to church every Sunday… Now, you got the picture?
    On one side there is, say, tormented Kierkegaard strugling to live 100% life as a christian who spent entire adult life and missed ordinary human joy just to grasp Avram-Isac ultimate fate paradox and on other side there is ordinary american fatso walking with swagger with dozen bags through shopping mall. Got it?
    In my old country I do not remeber dating a girl who would not know by hart a dozens of poems and they would not be necessarily and obviously into art – jast a reg girls.
    While ago, when they pulled out dead sailors from Kursk sub one thrid of them had a notebooks with their own poems written in their pockets.
    So not being loud “religious” they would be labeled as a soulless in country where oily spark plug is before Jesus by any measure.
    Religion is one of ultimate expresions of human spirit, next to art, play and philosophy and I would add math and sience.
    I remeber saying: “If everything goes wrong in your life God has chosen you for himself” which can be scary if one transltes it into: “If you are good for nothing you hang to Jesus as for the dear life” which one can see watching TV Ev’s.

  347. asoka. November 3, 2011 at 1:35 pm #

    Wage said: “So where do atheists gather weekly to do the above in the name of science?”
    —————–
    Wage, I’m not sure if this is a real question or a rhetorical question.
    If it is real, then one answer might be in the meetings of “Free Thinkers” which I have found in many communities where I have lived. They are atheists. They meet regularly.
    Check out nobeliefs dot com (I’m afraid to put in the URL)
    Perfect segue from my last post, by the way. Thanks.

  348. wagelaborer November 3, 2011 at 1:38 pm #

    Hey, lbendet, did you see the Keiser Report?
    They’re talking about the Greek shakedown, and Stacy mentions that Iceland didn’t escape after all! Follow-up next week.
    Anyway, it’s pretty good, as always.
    http://maxkeiser.com/tag/keiser-report/

  349. wagelaborer November 3, 2011 at 1:42 pm #

    Thanks for an answer to the first part of the question, Asoka.
    Way to ternary think! Continue the exercise, please, and answer the rest.

  350. Nathan November 3, 2011 at 1:48 pm #

    Income disparity in the USA for sure. My rant was actually anecdotal. We always pay livable wages at our company and I can’t tell you how many folks we have had making $50K/year, with an $8K 4 wheeler and $300/0z weed but no health care or $5 in the savings account.

  351. Nathan November 3, 2011 at 1:54 pm #

    Great post balkan I love it. I am not fond of the easy religions myself. By easy I mean the faiths where you can be the biggest asshole to slime the planet but you accept Jesus as your savior and go to heaven for eternity. Heaven could really be a living permanent hell based on the entrance requirements.

  352. Vlad Krandz November 3, 2011 at 2:00 pm #

    Can you describe the Japanese blood type model a bit?
    A Liberal is someone who believes that Man is basically good and society perfectable thru social engineering. Now it is a word that is always changing – obviously J.S Mill didn’t mean it that way at all. What is changing or moving towards? Communism obviously.
    Conservatives believe the Man is fallen or largely bad – though many (not all) are reedemable thru effort both personal and societal with religion, spirituality, and morality playing a role at both ends.
    Liberalism as it now stands says that nurture or environment is everything and nature or genetics is nothing. This trope helps them in their quest as absolute social engineers. As you hopefully know – it is nonsense. IQ is over 50% inherited. Blacks have failed academically despite heroic attempts by Whites to raise them up to our level. When you say you have met briliant Blacks, you are engaging in typical liberal self delusion. Sure I have too, but we’re talking about averages here not exceptions.
    Why separate? Because Blacks and Mexicans have different cultures than we do. And if you read Plato, Aristotle, More, Machiavelli, Aquinas, Jefferson, Adams, Madison et al, you will not find one word about Nations having more than one culture in them. It’s a canard, just nonsense filtered down from the Elite via the great Foundations into the University system. It is their way of paving the way towards the destruction of America as a White, Western Nation and the creation of a polygot, multiracial/cultural Empire – a Tower of Babel that will not stand. The opposite is fine – separate nations can exist in the same culture like the Greek or Italian City States, the Orthodox Nations, etc. But many cultures within one Nation? No. It only works as in China when the other groups are small and weak. The biggest one, the Turkish in the West – is making more trouble all the time.
    Yes we took in Whites from all over and made them Americans. That’s when we were strong and they were all White and Christian to begin with. And – we demanded that they so change. There is no such demand now nor could it be fufilled. Sometimes people say, “Well look how hard it was to Americanize the European immigrants” – as if to say that it can be done to Mexicans and Blacks. No. It was hard with the Europeans when we were strong. It is impossible now to do a much harder thing when we are weak. It fits: overestimation of strength is a classic delusion of dying Empires.
    Btw, Libs aren’t consistent: they champion Darwin and genetics to trash religion and forget about them when race comes up. Then resurect them when gays say they “are born this way”.
    The pure Negro IQ is a mindblowing 70. Afro-Americans have an IQ of 85 due to the admixture of White blood. Look at great Black Americans of history – very light. As the great pure blood Marcus Garvey said when he dropped into the New York NAACP – “They’re White”. He knew that they were a Communist Front created and funded by the Jews. You can google that if you don’t believe Garvey or me or I.

  353. Vlad Krandz November 3, 2011 at 2:05 pm #

    Any ideas about an internet Hindoo Astrology reading? Just say no if you have none. A good No is a joy forever. I’m asking several people but I would take your reccomendation above any because of your Knowledge and your track record of sound judgement.

  354. wagelaborer November 3, 2011 at 2:06 pm #

    Oh, I could do the anecdotes too!
    I have a co-worker who I’m fond of, but oh my god! What a spendthrift!
    She’s married to a guy who inherited lots and lots of farmland, which he used to farm. The land has been in his land for generations, and if you drive around that area, you see his surname on every mailbox.
    But, first he quit the corn, because it wasn’t profitable (and we had an interesting exchange once, when she went off on poor people and how much she hated them [she’s a staunch Republican] and how fat they were and why should she pay for their obesity and their healthcare and she didn’t know who to blame, and I said “Earl Butz” and she stopped dead in her tracks. I explained the farm subsidies to her, and she said “Yes!! We quit growing corn because we were losing money”)
    Anyway, he bulldozed his apple trees, and then quit the hogs, and then the wheat, and then he was only growing hay for his own cattle, although he made pretty good money selling hay. But she talked him into selling bits of land at a time, and then the square baler, so he only does round bales.
    Anyway, to me, the very worst was when he sold acreage to buy matching four-wheelers for himself and their two sons.
    Now, he’s working for a cement company and she’s happy, because he’s going out to work everyday instead of working for awhile and then drinking beer down at the feedstore.
    And they don’t have much land left.
    I am horrified by all of it.

  355. turkle November 3, 2011 at 2:13 pm #

    “A Liberal is someone who believes that Man is basically good and society perfectable thru social engineering.”
    Well, Vladdie, how come….
    a) You’re always trying to paint me as some kind of arch-Commie liberal.
    b) I don’t believe either of those things.

  356. Nathan November 3, 2011 at 2:14 pm #

    WOW! Have to say I am none of the above then. I basically don’t believe in any of the things you mentioned.
    Having seen that dogs can pass behavior genetically as can butterflies and hummingbirds I do not see how behavior can be purely environmentalso I do agree there. I am not sure how “an averge person” has ever entered into a decisiopn i have made in my life, all decisions are personal. As far as ethnic purity of a culture goes, picture this. No blacks means no music or sports as those areas are dominated by blacks. No Mexicans, no fruit or vegetables as those folks dominate that market. etc, etc. All white could be pretty boring old boy.
    I know of a racist who made a world changing blunder using your exact plan when he sent Albert Einstein to the USA.

  357. Vlad Krandz November 3, 2011 at 2:15 pm #

    Belief in God is far more cogent than believe in Santa Claus. If you can’t see that, you are a retard. I admit there are religious ideas that are pretty Santaclausy. But the use of egregious examples does not refute the thing itself. Get a book on logic if you don’t get that.

  358. turkle November 3, 2011 at 2:17 pm #

    Nations have ALWAYS had multiple cultures within them. What complete idiocy you spout here.

  359. Nathan November 3, 2011 at 2:22 pm #

    That is depressing man. No happy ending there.
    The measure of an event is not what you gain by it but what you become by it. They became impovershed in spirit.

  360. turkle November 3, 2011 at 2:25 pm #

    So let me get this straight.
    God created the universe in a week. (Okay, six days. He rested on Sunday.) Then he conjured up Adam out of the mud, and when he Adam got lonely, made Eve out of his rib bone. They lived in the Garden of Eden for awhile, sans bad things like cancer and loud car stereos, until Satan, disguised as a snake, tricked Eve into eating the forbidden apple from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Consequently, Adam and Eve were kicked out of this garden, and then a bunch of other things happened to their descendants (see the boring parts of the Old Testament).
    Then, approximately 2000 years ago, God decided to send his son to earth as a man to redeem humanity’s sins. This Jesus fellow was a really rad dude who could walk on water and heal the sick and so forth. The Romans/Jews didn’t like hippie Jesus and his peace and love philosophy too much, so they crucified him. Then he rose from the dead, passed through hell, and he’s now up there in Heaven. Now we can all get into Heaven instead of being automatically damned to Hell or wallowing in purgatory or what have you, that is, if we believe the above.
    And that’s supposed to be cogent? I don’t care how many morons believe this crap. It doesn’t even pass the laugh test. And I am a “retard” for not believing this hogwash? I’m more inclined to believe that a fat man in a red suit gives presents to children on Christmas.

  361. Vlad Krandz November 3, 2011 at 2:26 pm #

    Good point: the hard core Communists view Man as evil, a mere robot to be programmed, or animal to be trained. You may be of this ilk. If so, Congratulations you are destined for greatness! Liberalism is the descent to Communism not the thing itself. And even when attained, the apple is still shined and polished for the benefit of the masses.
    Oh btw, about Moochele (Rush!), you demolished a straw man. I admitted that she was a looker altho a bit over the hill now. I merely commented that she’s obviously a big time bitch. I don’t envy the B boy at all with that one. She has melt downs on a regular basis, apparently. Early on during the campaign, she started complaining about Barack publicly. She was told to shut up and she did. Now under the stress of the failing administration, she is starting to act up alot at the White House.

  362. wagelaborer November 3, 2011 at 2:31 pm #

    You forgot the part where this omnipotent being had to impregnate a virgin to get his son onto earth.
    And the only way the omnipotent being could change human behavior was to allow his human son (wasn’t this miscegenation?) to be tortured and murdered.
    And in honor of this torture and murder, Christians wear little torture device models around their necks to this day.

  363. Vlad Krandz November 3, 2011 at 2:34 pm #

    Not the ones that last, Turk. Attaturk is commended by Nationalists for giving up more territory than he needed to – to keep Turkey Turkey, Turkey. Then the Greeks were ethnically cleansed from the coast with extreme brutality.
    Japan has lasted for thousands of years and could last thousands more. Think they would if they brought in millions of Blacks or Whites? Think hard boy. Argue this way with some East Asians: Koreans, Chinese, Japanese, etc. They will give you a funny look and change the subject. It’s a cultural trait: East Asians don’t argue with craziness. They Know. You Don’t.

  364. Vlad Krandz November 3, 2011 at 2:41 pm #

    We can never do anything right by Blacks. Every concession is just the begining of the next one. They need their own Country. The best among them, like Farakahn, would accept this gladly. As you know, Jefferson, Lincoln, and most of the Greats wanted to send them back to Africa. Their design were foiled by the Mercantile interests. And now it’s too late. Thus we must do right for both them and ourselves. They can’t stay with us because they can’t compete with us – and that produces parasitism, resentment, hatred, and violence. The benefits they bring are small compared to the problems. They have a great musical heritage that has been brought down to the corruption of rap.
    Note: they themselves know that their gifts: music, sports, dance, performance art don’t match up to what we have. They know what’s impoportant even if you don’t. Thus they bristle when this subject is brought up.

  365. Confusionism November 3, 2011 at 2:42 pm #

    I have to take this, since Q is either banned again or asleep at the wheel.
    “Interestingly, we used to get a lot of four-wheeler crashes from the southern counties, because we have orthopedic services at my hospital.” – Wage
    You mean the cause of all those four-wheelers crashing was the fact that your hospital has orthopedic services? Just completely turns around the whole cause/effect thing, doesn’t it?

  366. Vlad Krandz November 3, 2011 at 2:44 pm #

    Listen to your own hatred! You are now better than the Christians who have give you a hard time. I can easily imagine you approving of the kind of persecution of Christians that took place in Russia and China. Repent!

  367. turkle November 3, 2011 at 2:49 pm #

    Hatred? Go splash some cold water on your face, buddy. He’s just making a funny.

  368. wagelaborer November 3, 2011 at 2:50 pm #

    Thomas Horner Dixon sets up a straw man and knocks it out of the park!
    It is science which helps us explain the importance of the interlocking web of life, and how disrupting one part can affect other parts. Maybe those with a faith in technology, who read Wired! and such, believe that we will invent our way out of this, but many of us don’t.
    I have brought up Marx’s views on ecology before, but it seems appropriate to mention them again. From a review of Marx’s Ecology and Marx and Nature-
    “Marx and Engels were deeply concerned about the impact of industry and technology upon nature. Marx attacked “Prometheanism” when his contemporary Proudhon promoted it. Engels discussed the danger, revealed in one historical civilization’s collapse after another, of human hubris in dealing with nature: the idea that man could ever dominate and control nature rather than understand better how to sustainably conform to its laws.
    Following agricultural scientists James Anderson and Liebig, Marx and Engels grew to understand that the concentration of population in the industrial metropolis not only impoverished and crippled the lives of the workers trapped in this polluted and congested environment. Under this bourgeois-metropolitan regime, the soil also lost its fertility. The nutrients from the food farmed in the countryside were never returned to the land. Instead, they were washed away through the urban sewer system. Thus Marx and Engels demanded that the “the division between town and country” be abolished; that the populations of the “great towns” be permitted to migrate to what Ebenezer Howard would later call “garden cities,” with their own cooperatively-owned industry, spread across the countryside. The citizens of these decentralized communes would work the land cooperatively, and the natural nutrients would return to the land from whence they came.”
    (I quoted Marx to Tripp before about the incredible waste he saw in London, of dumping tons of human fertile waste into the Thames River).

  369. turkle November 3, 2011 at 2:51 pm #

    Oh, we’re not evil. We’re just a bunch of funky monkeys is all.

  370. wagelaborer November 3, 2011 at 3:01 pm #

    Um, no. The reason we got the victims of the four-wheeler crashes is because my hospital has ortho. I think it makes sense the way I put it. But I guess Q will make the final determination.
    On the other hand, I did say in another comment that the “land has been in his land” instead of “in his family” for generations.

  371. wagelaborer November 3, 2011 at 3:15 pm #

    Paul Craig Roberts analyzes it further-
    http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=27447

  372. charliefoxtrot November 3, 2011 at 3:17 pm #

    looked to me like they were getting the injuries resulting from the crashes because her hospital had an orthopaedic unit…and maybe the term ‘crashes’ is in the vernacular sense used at the emergency room; and therefor the invocation of Q was in error…that an accurate assessment, wage?

  373. Vlad Krandz November 3, 2011 at 3:20 pm #

    Franken Corn going on to the shelves this fall. Seems to kill animals so it’s a good idea. Chuck and WND knock it out of the park with this one.
    http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=361333

  374. Vlad Krandz November 3, 2011 at 3:23 pm #

    Thought we were talking Metaphysics not the theology of one individual religion. Two different things. The province of the Intellect is make such distinctions. Can’t talk about something if the other person is talking about something else. Guess you realized you were losing and decided to shift your ground…

  375. asoka. November 3, 2011 at 3:29 pm #

    LOL!
    Getting a bit arcane, aren’t we?
    This sounds like the CFN version of “How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?”
    But it is an interesting distraction from the certain doom we face when Greece collapses, and the domino effect collapses Europe and then the USA, and then the sky falls, or some such doomster scenario like those I’ve been reading about for decades.
    I suppose I’m supposed to be scared, but my version of “voluntary simplicity” actually worked, in contrary to what Greer said about commercial co-optation. So I’m not scared.

  376. Vlad Krandz November 3, 2011 at 3:31 pm #

    Yes. No one has to teach a retriever to retreive or a pointer to point. But it’s a personal decison on the part of the dog each time. They might want to go pee or eat instead. Just so with people: a kid decides he doesn’t like math but it’s probably because he’s no good at it because his parents weren’t either.
    Everyone thinks they’re making personal decisons -and they are. But there are reasons behind those person decisons. Try to see it in yourself. It’s easy enough to see it in others and in groups.

  377. Nathan November 3, 2011 at 3:31 pm #

    What if some blacks want to stay, like say Obama and Herman Cain? Do they still have to go?

  378. mika. November 3, 2011 at 3:32 pm #

    hard core Communists view Man as evil, a mere robot to be programmed, or animal to be trained
    ==
    How ironic, this coming from a Vatican sith, because that’s exactly the position of the Vatican. A Vatican whose banks subsidized Marx, because for all his correct criticisms, his prescription to the problem is more centralization, which further empowers of the banks the government mafia and their thieving.

  379. turkle November 3, 2011 at 3:34 pm #

    So you agree with me that Christianity is intellectual rubbish?
    Oh, metaphysics. How quaint. Why do we need that again? I’m not really interested in propositions that can’t be falsified, which AFAIK describes metaphysics write large. I’m more a fan of real physics, which is weird and interesting enough already without inserting invented notions into the discussion, like gods and fairies and other assorted horse hockey.

  380. Nathan November 3, 2011 at 3:36 pm #

    I love making decisions. Peple hire me just to make decisions. I don’t ever hear you mention wisdom, just intellect. DO you know the difference? Few do any more.

  381. dale November 3, 2011 at 3:36 pm #

    Asoka,
    When you say ‘I am not trying to manipulate anyone’, I would have to take exception to that just on the basis of your statements in the same post. For example, you say you make false statements to get people to ‘go beyond thought’. So….in other words….you say things you don’t believe to provoke a reaction hoping to get people to change their way of thinking. Sounds like a textbook definition of manipulation to me!!
    I’m also made a little uneasy by your explanations of Buddhism, which I find a little “new agie” or simplistic. I’m not sure I’ve heard the term “Beliefs are all in the head” from any Buddhist teacher I’ve met. I think the point most Buddhist thought makes, is that they are NOT in your head and that you don’t have to own them at all. Also the way you talk about “going beyond thought” and most egregiously “It does not matter what you believe” smack of nihilism or solipsism when you just toss them around so carelessly. Buddhism is most definitely neither of those. But some of your behavior does suggest you do believe that. I would suggest you leave teaching Buddhism to the qualified.
    In any case the reaction I have to someone telling me he’s making a joke of himself is….we have plenty of that in the world without anyone trying….so please….just be as real as you can. I can’t speak for everyone, but I’d appreciate it.

  382. turkle November 3, 2011 at 3:37 pm #

    I’m not sure why some people feel the need to provide a public service of grammatical correction to internet comments. Has anyone told these people about the grammatical atrocities committed in the comments section of youtube videos? Go hence, thou noble grammarians. Someone on the internet hast committed the sin of the double negative!

  383. Vlad Krandz November 3, 2011 at 3:43 pm #

    An extraordinary misandrist. Let’s face it: many women hate men, should never get married but do so anyway, can’t stand their husband being aroud etc. Imagine supporting such a gorgon and shrew and then upon retirement finding out she how much she can’t stand having you around “her” house. Happens all the time.
    And that scenario is a bit old hat. The new paradigm is no fault divorce where the woman takes almost all. False accusations of abuse and pedophilia are de rigeur to get him out of “her” children’s lives.
    The man’s revenge is if and when the children realize what a monster she is and come looking for him twenty years later.

  384. turkle November 3, 2011 at 3:44 pm #

    Japan is a poor example of racial peace, love, and harmony. The country’s history is pretty much one of non-stop war until the modern era. It wasn’t even united until the 1500’s.
    Anyways, your simplistic notion of one race/culture equating to a single nation is an anachronism. There isn’t one nation in the entire world that fits your ideal, which tells me that as a general benchmark it is far too simplistic and idealistic, not to mention unworkable.

  385. charliefoxtrot November 3, 2011 at 3:44 pm #

    for what it s worth, you spoke for me on that subject…

  386. turkle November 3, 2011 at 3:45 pm #

    Let me guess, Vlad. You’re still single?

  387. asoka. November 3, 2011 at 3:47 pm #

    I’m not on the grammatical bandwagon, Turkle, except when I correct Q … on a whim.
    Your previous comments are noted. Is it possible for someone to not be as real as can be?
    Also, I agree with you about the boredom of believing in One God (be it Yahweh, Allah, or whoever), when modern physics offers such a rich mythology of multiple hypotheses with six flavors of quarks, w bosons, z bosons, charged pions, etc.
    Physics seems a much more fun belief system, if you must believe in something.

  388. turkle November 3, 2011 at 3:50 pm #

    re: The globalresearch article…
    There’s no ‘k’ in America, regardless of whatever criticism you’re leveling at it or its people. I’m not sure why people on the internet think this is so cute. It just makes the author look juvenile.

  389. dale November 3, 2011 at 3:57 pm #

    As an example of atheism turning non-belief into a quasi-religion, I would suggest the magazine “Skeptic”, is a wonderful example.
    In its efforts to support whatever is today’s version of science as the ultimate truth, or the best truth we know, It can become as dogmatic as the most ardent evangelical.
    Skeptic not only dismisses all religion with the same wave of a hand, but most of cutting edge science as well, when it dares to question orthodoxy.
    If you need a complete example, you will find them harping relentlessly on the “mind”, being an emergent property of the “brain”, a contention for which their is absolutely no proof what-so-ever, in spite of ‘modern’ neuro-scientist maintaining it as a ‘belief’ for more than 50 years.

  390. asoka. November 3, 2011 at 4:01 pm #

    There’s a fun guide to the religious mythology of physicists (by the Particle Data Group of the Lawrence Berkley National Laboratory) at:
    www dot particleadventure dot org
    They’ve got over 300 subatomic particles and new ones are being “discovered” …
    So help yourself to tau neutrinos, mu neutrinos, and all the excited states you can handle, a paradisaical tour for believers in physics.

  391. asoka. November 3, 2011 at 4:05 pm #

    CORRECTION:
    Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory

  392. lbendet November 3, 2011 at 4:08 pm #

    Wage,
    Say it ain’t so!!
    –No I didn’t hear MK about Iceland– I thought they were getting advice from Michael Hudson about how to not go under by the European banksters.
    I’ll have to take a listen.
    I haven’t been able to keep up with my usual blogging and reading. I got snowed by lots of work in a short period of time. I’ve got to train someone over the weekend, so I’m working on a lesson plan.
    After the training I’m planning on going down to the OWSer protest again.

  393. turkle November 3, 2011 at 4:10 pm #

    “It can become as dogmatic as the most ardent evangelical”
    I seriously doubt that…call me a skeptic.
    Science is pretty much the only method we’ve come up with that leads to the truth. It is pretty simple really. You make a prediction. Then you see if the prediction matches reality by observing it or performing an experiment. Then you go back and either validate the original proposition or modify it and try again. Or you can toss it out entirely (e.g. the moon is made of green cheese). I’m not aware of a better method for determining what does and does not exist. Perhaps you can fill me in.
    The main difference between religion and science is that science changes its mind, all the time in fact. Scientists are perfectly willing to jettison old ideas when better ones come along that match the data better (plum pudding model anyone?).
    What scientists are not willing to do is admit evidence or propositions that are not falsifiable by experiment. So perhaps that’s what you see as dogmatic, but it really isn’t. They just generally don’t want to waste their time with beliefs that have no basis in material reality.
    Well, most of them. There’s some weird stuff out there like String Theory, but this is at least motivated by some kind of physical basis, however inaccessible and esoteric it might be.
    Bottom line to me is that the religious and scientific methods of arriving at the truth are strictly at odds with each other. Anyone who doesn’t think so doesn’t understand one or the other very well (or either).

  394. turkle November 3, 2011 at 4:12 pm #

    Yes, asoka, because those were all just conjured up out of some crazy physicist’s head rather than motivated by experimental data. (end sarcasm)

  395. turkle November 3, 2011 at 4:19 pm #

    If you need a complete example, you will find them harping relentlessly on the “mind”, being an emergent property of the “brain”, a contention for which their is absolutely no proof what-so-ever, in spite of ‘modern’ neuro-scientist maintaining it as a ‘belief’ for more than 50 years.

    If what you label “the mind” doesn’t emerge from the physical wiring and mechanisms of the brain, what does it come from?
    And I assume you are a neuro-scientist or have at least studied this matter in depth for years?
    If not, why exactly do you feel qualified to say that there is “absolutely no proof” of this idea? For someone who is generally not an absolutist (e.g. dale), that is a pretty strong statement.
    If thousands of credentialed scientists in a particular field profess to believe in a theory, I’m going to go out on a limb and guess that there is probably some basis in reality for it, however flawed and incomplete the theory may be.
    Let’s perform an experiment. We stick an ice pick through dale’s brain. What is going to happen to your mind, which is apparently not an emergent properly of your brain? I’ll give you three guesses.
    Or am I missing the whole point you were trying to make?

  396. turkle November 3, 2011 at 4:20 pm #

    You ever hear the one about reality being weirder than we can imagine? Well, there ya go…

  397. progress2conserve November 3, 2011 at 4:28 pm #

    “I was in school in Athens Georgia when schools were desegregated. Pretty rough times.
    I do like the idea of the USA splitting into sovereign states though as I hate to see places like Texas have alot of votes in the House when VT has only 1. So I would vote yes for disolving the union but don’t get the point of segregation.”
    -nathan-
    Nathan, small world; I was in Macon, GA at the same time. (91 miles distant, for you non Georgians)
    I’ve posted before about the all male – public – forcefully desegregating – Lanier High School – that I attended.
    I say without reservation, and with little exaggeration – that it was like going to school in prison, or in Hell – depending on the day.
    Nathan, you want to see the US split, but you’re not being clear enough for me to see – as to why you want this to happen. ? ?
    Vlad’s pretty clear – he wants to give Georgia and most of the Old South region over to a Black Nation run by Farakkan et al.
    Regardless of motivations – splitting the States will never happen again, in a substantive way. It almost did in the 1860’s, and we’ll never know if (my pet theory) that was one of those seminal events that has led to the triumph of Worldwide Global Capitalism and, thus, will lead in time to the death of humanity.
    But, anyway, I will GUARANTEE that there are plenty of plans in plenty of sections of the DoD – dedicated to keeping the United States united – regardless of Peak Oil, nuclear warfare, comet strikes, you name ANY disaster.
    The US government will fall back on interior supply lines and enforce some version of National unity – for far longer than most of us would believe humanly possible.

  398. asoka. November 3, 2011 at 4:28 pm #

    “Yes, asoka, because those were all just conjured up out of some crazy physicist’s head”
    —————
    No, not out of ONE, but many physicists’ heads. It is an evolving enterprise, just as religions don’t spring from one theologians head. Religions are also evolving enterprises.
    There is no real contradiction between authentic religious experience and science. Both involve instrumental injunctions (based on previous understanding), both involve gathering experimental data (e.g. meditation), and both involve communal confirmation of results (usually in a sangha setting).
    But, then, I am not a “qualified” Buddhist teacher, so what do I know?

  399. Bustin J November 3, 2011 at 4:32 pm #

    turkle said, “Oh, we’re not evil. We’re just a bunch of funky monkeys is all.”
    Yeah, funky monkeys that are doing evil, and as such, are.
    Vlad said, “You can’t prove that there is no God.”
    The existence of God is certainly disprovable. The arguments are on the Internet if you chose to look for them. Reductio ad absurdum is my favorite.
    “Thus your convicition is just as irrational as our’s.”
    Absolutely not. We’re not the ones drinking “blood” & eating His “Flesh” and think there is some magical being who listens to our prayers and arranges miracles. Thats your cohort. Muslims, Jews, Christians… they all worship the same God.
    “the real purely rational stance is the “don’t know” of Agnosticism.”
    It is a rationalization, all right, it “rationalizes” the “irrational”.
    Its a purely political stance. For example, “Agnostics” aren’t “agnostic” about Zeus or Athena. They are “Agnostic” in that they are not inclined to confrontation with god believers. They want to be everybody’s friend. They want to go to Heaven and not be snared by Satan, purely on the visceral basis of the feelings generated by stories which they were programmed with in childhood by trusted adult advisors, and perpetuated within their social milieu. Yet, the most developed part of their mind doubts. And it doubts for good reason. Hence Agnostics are cowards. They are the go-along to get-along types. The milquetoast, mild, and non-irritating personalities. The glad-handlers. The ignorant, the unknowing, uninterested, the uncreative, the conformers, the perpetrator’s glassy-eyed victims….
    I appreciate your conviction as a man of faith: a man without need of reason, without proof. That is pure religion. A country of agnostics is somehow less tolerable to me. I would have found Bertrand Russel to be intolerable in person, I’m sure.
    I’ve been an atheist for almost 20 years now. Its been enormously profitable. I also recognize that its not possible for everyone. There is quite a lot of latent mental illness. You hear voices? Sometimes? And of course, the programming we get as children prevents later maturity, even into advanced age. Its not so much a question of innate intelligence; even a moron wouldn’t believe such ridiculous stories if he hadn’t been abused so thoroughly by adults at critical points of development.
    Imagine, being subject to the judgment of a powerful supernatural being whose ambiguous directives you must continuously obey. There is no escape from this tyranny. A more perfect definition of culturally transferable mental illness there never was.
    Religion is clearly evil; evil in works. Organized religions were the original “vampire squid sticking its blood funnel into humanity”. Nothing else even comes close.

  400. turkle November 3, 2011 at 4:39 pm #

    I’m sorry, asoka, but proper science does not admit hallucinations, visions, voices in the head, or other internal religious “experience” as proof of anything. Well, perhaps there are a few narrow psychological studies that look at these things in order to prove some theory about the mind, but using purely internal experience as a normative evaluation of physical reality is a deeply flawed methodology.
    If you are actually interested in this topic and not just yanking my chain, please see Demon Haunted World by Carl Sagan, which covers these kinds of false equivalence ideas in detail.
    Nice try though.

  401. mika. November 3, 2011 at 4:44 pm #

    Very well said, Bustin. But I think being an atheist is not enough. I think rational people need to be firmly anti-theist and push towards legislating laws that criminalize religion pushers as criminal conspirators in a conspiracy of criminal insanity.

  402. charliefoxtrot November 3, 2011 at 4:48 pm #

    so just how, pray tell, is meditation equivalent to gathering experimental data?! and communal confirmation means what, exactly? that smacks of shared hallucination…by all means, clarify

  403. ctemple November 3, 2011 at 4:48 pm #

    And what is being conjured up out of the resident atheists thimble sized heads, except intolerance and venom? The usual ridicule masking as sophistication. It’s always about them, the same way with the Satanista, Reverend LeVay taught that your own birthday is the holiest day. Do what you will, that’s what is taught.
    Enjoy your belief in nothing except youself.

  404. progress2conserve November 3, 2011 at 4:50 pm #

    “….but don’t get the point of segregation.”
    -nathan-
    Nathan – I will explain the point of segregation.
    Most people, instinctively, want to spend their relaxed, “off-duty?,” or “home?” time – near people most like themselves.
    The US embarked on a grand experiment in desegregation of PUBLIC spaces – in 1964. I was one of the lab rats in that experiment. Some aspects of it have worked well – some have had horribly negative outcomes. (disintegration of sustainable black communities with intact extended black families makes the short list, here)
    Well – whatever, right? We can’t stop the clock and we can’t reverse the experiment; much though Vlad might want us to.
    – But we can observe the segregated housing patterns in any city in the US –
    – Or we can look at the racially segregated lunch tables at any high school in America –
    – Or we can consider how most members of the US military segregate themselves, off duty –
    – And we can conclude that PUBLIC integration does not change people’s private behavior.
    ——————————–
    And in times of societal stress, when the oil stops flowing or the food trucks stop running –
    These innate tendencies to racial segregation become stronger and more powerful.
    That’s why this is a legitimate topic for CFN.
    Though some people hate thinking about it.

  405. turkle November 3, 2011 at 4:53 pm #

    “Enjoy your belief in nothing except youself.”
    No, we just don’t believe in unprovable, made-up clap trap. M’k?
    If you want some examples of intolerance, just look how the orthodox Christians call Mitt Romney’s Christian sect a cult.
    See how the Christians love each other? With friends like this, who needs enemies?

  406. turkle November 3, 2011 at 4:56 pm #

    We’ll leave the big time solipsism and arrogance to the people who believe that an immortal, omnipotent being takes time out of his busy day to personally talk to them and answer their petty little prayers.
    Thanks for the thought though.

  407. asoka. November 3, 2011 at 4:56 pm #

    Turkle, if you are actually interested in this topic, please read Eye to Eye: The Quest for the New Paradigm (Shambhala; 3 Revised edition (January 30, 2001)
    I am not trying to impose any belief on you that involves hallucinations, visions or voices.
    But I will also not deny valid internal experience based on pure observation of inner states subjected to communal confirmation.
    You claim to respect science, yet without having done the experiment, you criticize and label (e.g., those who have done years of rigorous and controlled meditation practice).

  408. Nathan November 3, 2011 at 4:56 pm #

    I know Lanier well I went to Cedar Shaols and lanier was a sports monster back then. I also used to plaay in the USTA Junior tourney in Macon every June and one of my sisters lived there.
    I guess the USA split is a pipe dream but dreams are ok too. I wish to force my will on no one, I do not even want to offend anyone with my opinion. They could be right and I could be wrong, you never really know. I would like to see the states break from the fed. Each state has its own way of doing things. For instance Vermont would never invade Iraq, we had no sub prime mortgage issues or forclosures to speak of, our banks are solvent and the state has a tiny deficit. Thanks to the union we now own a share of all of these problems with the brainless wonders of Nevada, California, Florida, etc. That was my point.

  409. charliefoxtrot November 3, 2011 at 4:57 pm #

    nice try, but there just don t seem to be very many of us around- as evidenced by the countless millions killed, controlled and daemonized, and zillions stolen in the name of the church, to top the list…

  410. turkle November 3, 2011 at 4:58 pm #

    Ridicule, intolerance, and venom (along with a lot of humor and sarcasm) is about all I have for Christians who say I’m going to end up eternally burning in the fires of Hell for not cow-towing to their Bronze Age sky god.

  411. turkle November 3, 2011 at 5:00 pm #

    Oh, I forgot. All atheists are Satanists. Riiiiight. Is that what your boy-loving Catholic priest told you?

  412. Nathan November 3, 2011 at 5:01 pm #

    You are absolutely correct on all counts here. I was thinking more of the injustice that would be involved in reinstating segregation as that would be anotther big brother move where alot of folks loose their freedom of choice. Some could argue that segregation infringed on the rights of some but like you said folks can make a chois=ce to be segregated today so not all of their freedom of choice was lost, just an equal share.

  413. turkle November 3, 2011 at 5:01 pm #

    “you never really know”
    Sometimes you really do know. Do you want some examples?

  414. Qshtik November 3, 2011 at 5:02 pm #

    A friend sent me a new word and its definition. I’m sure many of you will like it.
    Ineptocracy – a definition (A government of hope & change and a ring of truth)
    Ineptocracy (in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

  415. mika. November 3, 2011 at 5:03 pm #

    Are you a religion pusher? If you’re not, than I don’t see what’s all your whining about.

  416. Qshtik November 3, 2011 at 5:06 pm #

    Here’s a new word some one sent me. I think you’ll like it.
    Ineptocracy – a definition (A government of hope & change and a ring of truth)
    Ineptocracy (in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

  417. turkle November 3, 2011 at 5:07 pm #

    Lame. Where’d he get that from? The O’reilly Factor?

  418. Qshtik November 3, 2011 at 5:08 pm #

    Here’s a new word some one sent me. I think you’ll like it.
    Ineptocracy – a definition (A government of hope & change and a ring of truth)
    Ineptocracy (in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

  419. turkle November 3, 2011 at 5:08 pm #

    “are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers”
    Aren’t you on a pension right now, you old fart?

  420. turkle November 3, 2011 at 5:09 pm #

    Producers….lol….like the vampire squids working at Goldman Sachs, shorting their own investments….those “producers”?

  421. Nathan November 3, 2011 at 5:10 pm #

    Here is an example for you turk.
    THere are 3 buckets of water and 2 men.
    The buckets have hot water in one, cold water in one and warm water in the other.
    One man starts with his hands in the hot water, the other man starts with his hands in the cold water. Then both men put their hands in the warm water. One man says the water is hot and the other says the waer is cold even though they have their hands in the same bucket. Positive you are right does not mean anything even if you are right you couold be wrong at the same time. I learned this after two failed marriages and have been happily married ever since.

  422. Nathan November 3, 2011 at 5:14 pm #

    The job creators could hire more workers if their taxes were lower. What employer pays employees with after tax dollars. Wages are fully deductible for every corporation or sole propreiter. I never hear this fact brought up, what a load of BS.

  423. progress2conserve November 3, 2011 at 5:19 pm #

    Thanks for the shout back Nathan.
    Lanier HS was renamed Central HS, some while after I left.
    I actually, more or less, begged my dad to take a job transfer to get me the H*ll out of Lanier, he did it during my sophomore year. (Thanks, Dad, you may rest in Peace.) ;-)
    On a (much) lighter note, for those interested, and since you mentioned sports. Sidney Lanier was a great southern writer and poet. Until Lanier HS was dissolved and merged with the girl’s school next door – known as Miller HS for Girls –
    Until Lanier was dissolved and renamed Central –
    Our sports teams were the Lanier Poets!
    Which made for some interesting cheers!!
    For historical high school trivia experts:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_High_School_%28Macon,_Georgia%29
    Oh, and by the way, I enjoy your writing, but when you say:
    “I wish to force my will on no one, I do not even want to offend anyone with my opinion.”
    -nathan-
    I must interject – New to CFN, ain’t you, boy?
    That’s what we’re here for – welcome to the brawl.

  424. asoka. November 3, 2011 at 5:28 pm #

    CFT, would you ask just how observation is scientific. Meditation is observation.
    But we don’t really have to rely on self-reports. There has been quite a bit of research done related to meditation. For example, this:
    PRIMARY OBJECTIVE:
    To examine the potential efficacy of a mindfulness-based stress reduction approach to improve quality of life in individuals who have suffered traumatic brain injuries.
    RESEARCH DESIGN:
    Pre-post design with drop-outs as controls.
    METHODS AND PROCEDURES:
    We recruited individuals with mild to moderate brain injuries, at least 1 year post-injury. We measured their quality of life, psychological status, and function. Results of 10 participants who completed the programme were compared to three drop-outs with complete data.
    EXPERIMENTAL INTERVENTION:
    The intervention was delivered in 12-weekly group sessions. The intervention relied on insight meditation, breathing exercises, guided visualization, and group discussion. We aimed to encourage a new way of thinking about disability and life to bring a sense of acceptance, allowing participants to move beyond limiting beliefs.
    MAIN OUTCOMES AND RESULTS:
    The treatment group mean quality of life (SF-36) improved by 15.40 (SD = 9.08) compared to – 1.67 (SD = 16.65; p = 0.036) for controls. Improvements on the cognitive-affective domain of the Beck Depression Inventory II (BDI-II) were reported (p = 0.029), while changes in the overall BDI-II (p = 0.059) and the Positive Symptom Distress Inventory of the SCL-90R (p = 0.054) approached statistical significance.
    CONCLUSIONS:
    The intervention was simple, and improved quality of life after other treatment avenues for these participants were exhausted.

  425. Nathan November 3, 2011 at 5:31 pm #

    I enjoy yor writing also. I do like to share my point of view but I have to get paid to argue is a more accurate statement.

  426. charliefoxtrot November 3, 2011 at 5:32 pm #

    and what is stopping the brainless warlords in fla, ca and nevada (hey, he said it; i only quoted him) from deciding vermont maple syrup is the next liquid gold, and worth an invasion? why, the concept and reality of a union of states… and has kept (at least til now, and at least foreign) jackboots out of our lawns and gardens- yours and mine-? yep, that pesky federal govt…you don t like it, help me fix it! thought i was gonna say leave, didn t you?

  427. progress2conserve November 3, 2011 at 5:37 pm #

    I’m not even sure Texas would have invaded Iraq all by itself.
    Although it would have been funny as Hell to watch them try. They could use a little dose of humble in TX, in my opinion.
    Bossier – you want to weigh in on this??

  428. charliefoxtrot November 3, 2011 at 5:44 pm #

    how is basically agreeing with you whining, i d like to know?!

  429. Bustin J November 3, 2011 at 5:51 pm #

    Mika said, “I think rational people need to be firmly anti-theist and push towards legislating laws that criminalize religion pushers as criminal conspirators in a conspiracy of criminal insanity.”
    I think the proper place for atheism is in the arena of ideas. Atheists just need to keep pushing the buttons, keep our voices heard and out there, and keep pointing out the hypocrisy and vanity of religion. I don’t advocate or believe in a religious statism.
    There should not be, for example,

    The House voted 396-9 on Tuesday to reaffirm the national motto (In God We Trust) and urged its display in public schools and government buildings after Rep. Randy Forbes (R-Va.) introduced it.

    Look at that frenzy of cooperation among the two parties. 396-9!
    It proves that the religious are firmly in power, that we have a nascent theocracy of composition, and that irrationality rules the day. If America is imploding, it is because god-believers have had their run of things for a long, long time.
    c-temple says “And what is being conjured up out of the resident atheists thimble sized heads, except intolerance and venom? The usual ridicule masking as sophistication. It’s always about them, the same way with the Satanista, Reverend LeVay taught that your own birthday is the holiest day. Do what you will, that’s what is taught.”
    Atheism has no doctrine on morality. My ethical arguments are my own, based on widely established concepts of fairness and morality. For example, threatening little children with falsehoods and scary stories, is to me, reprehensible. It doesn’t matter whether the bogeyman is Allah, or Yahweh, or Satan, or Buggaboo.
    Atheism has nothing to do with moral nihilism. Ethics are rational and explicable and don’t need God to justify its precepts.
    Is that enough of a clear and concise response to fit in your microscopic brain?

  430. balkan November 3, 2011 at 5:52 pm #

    There is a lot of chest pumping about US being “christian” with christian values all ower the place.
    Obvious question:
    What would be the thing that any visitor would notice right away, at the airport, that make it so? Even better which part of “christian” that he/she observes later would make that they wpould say: “Woow, what a great place!”?
    Any takers?

  431. turkle November 3, 2011 at 5:52 pm #

    meditation != religion
    You’re right though. Meditation has very beneficial effects. I took a course on it. Fascinating stuff, but I fail to see that this has anything to say about the truth of religion, as meditation can be practiced completely separate from any religious doctrine.

  432. Nathan November 3, 2011 at 5:52 pm #

    Interesting. Second time today I have evoked the shoot at it response.

  433. turkle November 3, 2011 at 5:54 pm #

    Well, if you turn on the tube, then you’ll find a bunch of Christian holy rollers who apparently really need your money.
    If you venture outside airport, especially down South, you’ll see a lot of Christian religious establishments on tax free property.
    Oh, and we sure did bring the fire and brimstone to those Iraqis, didn’t we?

  434. charliefoxtrot November 3, 2011 at 5:55 pm #

    chuckle! good one…although you have to admit their avg intelligence must be questioned in light of all the governors they ve elected and then foisted off on the rest of us…no insult intended to the boss, if that s where you reside btw… i m sure from your posts you are a bit smarter than any bush, for example, that i ve seen on the ol’ boob tube

  435. charliefoxtrot November 3, 2011 at 6:00 pm #

    ???

  436. trippticket November 3, 2011 at 6:02 pm #

    “Very well said, Bustin. But I think being an atheist is not enough. I think rational people need to be firmly anti-theist and push towards legislating laws that criminalize religion pushers as criminal conspirators in a conspiracy of criminal insanity.”
    Here again I think energy descent will come to our rescue. If you want to live in an uber-fundamentalist village, no problem. If you want to live in an atheistic one, just as good. How those villages relate to/trade with one another is anyone’s guess! I would say to just, personally, be VERY useful.

  437. turkle November 3, 2011 at 6:03 pm #

    Boo ya!

  438. trippticket November 3, 2011 at 6:04 pm #

    But trying to legislate anyone’s beliefs is obviously completely out of touch with reality.

  439. Nathan November 3, 2011 at 6:11 pm #

    And also the norm forever for some stupid reason.

  440. Nathan November 3, 2011 at 6:15 pm #

    I do believe that the fed is doomed. Too expensive and too many folks under the sane umbrella (330 million?)Right now to balance the budget the fed would have to cut 100% of the defense budget and 100% of social security. Not gonna happen but it reperesents the magnitude of the problem. Soon we will not have the military we have become accustomed to. right now we cant’even afford to clean up the natural disasters as they happen.

  441. trippticket November 3, 2011 at 6:21 pm #

    I think I’ve had as much of AT&T as I’m going to allow into my life. I’ve never spent so much collective time on hold with a corporation to deal with their bonehead (seemingly intentional) errors, always in their favor of course. It’ll cost me a comfortable keyboard since we’re going to trade in our land line and ISP for an Android, so you guys might see a bit less of me (or I might be a bit more frank when you do). I’m just not going to take their bullshit anymore. I’m not going to waste one more minute of my life dealing with their miserable “business” model, no matter how much convenience it costs me.
    Pull your crap on someone else, assholes. I just don’t care that much anymore.

  442. Qshtik November 3, 2011 at 6:23 pm #

    Pardon the triple post … something is becoming effed up again. You would not believe the problems I’ve had with computers over the past month. I am cursed by electronic gadgetry.

  443. turkle November 3, 2011 at 6:23 pm #

    “for an Android”
    My condolences…

  444. mika. November 3, 2011 at 6:24 pm #

    The meek shall inherit nothing!
    In fact, the meek shall inherit nothing but misery! The Vatican and their banks confiscated property, confiscate it back! Take away their exorbitant elite privileges, their tax exemptions, and tax these fsckers out of existence. Stop being passive impotent zombies.

  445. trippticket November 3, 2011 at 6:30 pm #

    Instead, I just got Ianto Evans’ book “The Hand-Sculpted House”, and John Michael Greer’s latest “The Wealth of Nature: Economics As If Survival Mattered” in the mail. Both look incredible and I wish I could read them both cover-to-cover tonight. Better get going. See you cats later.

  446. Bustin J November 3, 2011 at 6:33 pm #

    Meditation is intentional ignorance in the sense that the goal of meditation is a state of not thinking about anything. Bliss arises from meditation by the ignorance pathway. The human brain is very good at directed attention and pruning perception. We “Remember the hits and forget the misses”. Sometimes out of habit, we chew and chew and chew on problems which create stress. Meditation is a practice that breaks that cycle, and allows respite.
    The religious among us are by and large prideful, sinful, and self-interested people who think that the Paragons (“Saints”) of their faith excuse both the personal and mass effect of their moral and ethical choices.
    None of “God’s” most brutal and judgmental edicts are applied to believers. The bible is selectively read, interpreted, and applied.
    Buddhism will gain many converts up to the end. At least, in Buddhism, one’s self-interest is served by not being threatened with eternal damnation… which is not a small reason why they are ascendent.
    The reality is that the mass of humanity is dumb and servile; their masters are neither intelligent or benevolent. The moral leadership of the world is morally and ethically bankrupt. The systems put in place are suicidal, genocidal, and ecocidal.

  447. charliefoxtrot November 3, 2011 at 6:35 pm #

    why do you always head straight for social security when you want to “balance the budget”? isn t it the one ‘program’ that is paid for already? how about cut the fucking trillions of waste and further trillions of unauthorized war spending from the military, reclaim the trillions given to banks/speculators, claim trillions in penalty from said banks/speculators, reclaim trillions in unauthorized tax cuts for individuals, claim trillions in taxes on corporations, claim trillions in penalty from individuals and corporations who have been depressing wages by hiring illegal immigrants for THE LAST CENTURY, and- wait, doesn t that balance the budget? oh, and if you hadn t caught it, ‘unauthorized’ in this context means voted on by We, The People…

  448. mika. November 3, 2011 at 6:35 pm #

    Look at that frenzy of cooperation among the two parties. 396-9! It proves that the religious are firmly in power
    ==
    No, it proves that your corrupt politicians are in the pay of the Vatican, and that these fascist representatives need to be politically reprimanded and the system that allows them to thrive be dismantled and done away with.

  449. turkle November 3, 2011 at 6:37 pm #

    I like your blowtorch-style Atheism, but you might rethink your stance on meditation. The goal is not at all to think about “nothing.” There are many different kinds of meditation, and the benefits are real. Just a thought…

  450. turkle November 3, 2011 at 6:38 pm #

    I wonder how many politicians are actually Christians or just play pretend in order to get votes.

  451. asoka. November 3, 2011 at 6:38 pm #

    “as meditation can be practiced completely separate from any religious doctrine.”
    —————-
    Agreed, Turkle.
    “Religion” in the sense of a belief system is completely unnecessary.

  452. charliefoxtrot November 3, 2011 at 6:40 pm #

    if you ll pardon the terminology, you re preachin’ to the choir

  453. ront November 3, 2011 at 6:41 pm #

    There is a city (or not), known by some as Absolute Truth. Others call it Divine Love. It has many names. Nearly every person, quite early on, hears about this city. They are introduced to it, in most cases, through being shown the Map. There is more than one Map. The Map has been interpretted and redrawn many times by ardent “followers” of the Map. They treasure the map, read the map, and identify themselves as believer in the City as the Map prescribes. But they have not considered actually using the map to go to the City.
    There are also those who think the Map is a load of Crap. It is just a bloody map for Crap’s sake. Where did it come from? Who can say there actually is this City that the Map depicts? No damn proof–it must be a big goof. Who needs it? Divine Love, Absolute Truth? Get real.
    Then there are those scoffers who, for some reason or on a whim, decide to actually take the trouble to go to the City and see it for themselves, to experience it. Many of them decide to take up residence there permanently.

  454. mika. November 3, 2011 at 6:43 pm #

    I know. But the choir needs some fire under its collective ass to get it moving. :)

  455. turkle November 3, 2011 at 6:47 pm #

    *yawn*

  456. Bustin J November 3, 2011 at 6:48 pm #

    The global output of heat-trapping carbon dioxide jumped by the biggest amount on record, the U.S. Department of Energy calculated, a sign of how feeble the world’s efforts are at slowing man-made global warming.
    The new figures for 2010 mean that levels of greenhouse gases are higher than the worst case scenario outlined by climate experts just four years ago.

    You were warned, but you didn’t listen. You didn’t act. You didn’t understand.
    Your leaders failed you but you did not remove them. They destroyed your landbase but you didn’t stop them. They disemboweled your economy and you didn’t notice.
    We are now firmly in the exponential growth phase of Clusterfuck, regardless of your personal ability to comprehend it.
    From here on out the planet is technically knocked out and its opponent, humanity, is kicking it in the vital organs repeatedly.
    There is no white horse on the horizon. Science has nothing that will help you. The doctors have no medicine for a terminal case. This trajectory is lethal to everything more complex than slime mold alive today. The Earth’s destiny is scorched rock, a barren, lifeless planet.
    Here is your personal situation:
    The governments are all against you. Corporations are all against you. Religions are all against you. Hollywood is against you.
    Your children will never see a natural sunset, taste clean water or breathe untainted air. Your “career” will not save you, no amount of guns or treasure will save you.
    Unbelievable, the banality of evil, the sheer stupidity, the total lack of responsibility, the subversion of ethical and moral reasoning. The total discounting of the future is complete.
    Now there are seven billion human beings leveraging all their power toward extracting resources and expect to do so their entire lives, and a system in place to efficiently organize that effort in some of the worst possible ways.
    This is going to be one uncomfortable decade, unless you are really good at meditation

  457. charliefoxtrot November 3, 2011 at 6:49 pm #

    vlad, it IS you, isn t it? no one else displays respect for the “V”atican while running it down in that tone of text…shit man, just come clean as the confused racist/atheist/goddie that you are…

  458. turkle November 3, 2011 at 6:50 pm #

    Man, what a load of crap. And you wonder why we think religious people are crazy?

  459. charliefoxtrot November 3, 2011 at 6:53 pm #

    yo, i was worried ol’ multitudes themselves (sic) had somehow jacked your screen name…

  460. mika. November 3, 2011 at 6:57 pm #

    LOL! Only Vlad and I know the truth, and I hope Vlad keeps his mouth shut, because this is too much fun. :)

  461. balkan November 3, 2011 at 7:02 pm #

    Comment from Turkle.