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Blowing Green Smoke

     “We also have Secretary Steven Chu, my Energy Secretary. Where is Steven? There he is over there.”
           – President Obama at Georgetown U last week
      Blame Steven Chu, then, because when it comes to America’s energy predicament, the president has been woefully misinformed. Mr. Obama pawned off a roster of notions and proposals already product-tested in the public meme-o-sphere. Almost everyone of these ideas is inconsistent with reality, based on faulty premises, or represents some kind of magical thinking. What they have in common is that they’re ideas the public wants to hear, whether they are truthful or not, because we don’t want to change the way we live.
     The central idea in Mr. Obama’s speech is that we will reduce our oil imports by one-third in a decade. This is a gross distortion of reality.  The truth is that our oil imports will be reduced automatically, whether we like it or not. The process is already underway. The nations that export oil to us are using much more of their own oil even while their supplies have passed peak production and entered depletion. Countries like Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, and Mexico have some of the highest population growth-rates in the world. They sell gasoline to their own people for less than a dollar a gallon. At the same time China and India are driving more cars and importing a lot more of the world’s declining supply. (China has perhaps the equivalent of a four-year supply of its own oil in the ground, and India has next-to-zero oil of its own).
     One meme circulating around the Web these days is that the USA has the equivalent of “three Saudi Arabias” in the shale oil fields of North Dakota, Colorado, Wyoming, and Montana. That is not true. A lot of this magical thinking focuses on the Bakken fields of Dakota. We’re currently producing less than 400,000 barrels a day out of Bakken and the projected maximum ten years from now is around 800,000. We use 20 million barrels a day in the US running suburbia, Wal Mart, and the US military. By the way, Bakken shale oil requires extensive rock fracturing operations – “fracking” – which means a lot of horizontal drilling, which means a lot of steel pipe. It is not just a matter of sticking a steel straw in the ground like we did in Texas in 1932.
    Note: much of the shale “oil” in other western states is not actually oil. It is kerogen, an organic precursor to oil, in effect organic polymers that have not been subjected to enough heat and pressure to turn into oil. If you want to turn it into oil, you have to cook it – which takes energy! That’s after the mining operation to scoop it out of the ground. That takes energy too. Or, you can send machinery into the ground and cook it in place. That takes energy, too. We are not going to get oil out of there anytime soon – and perhaps never.
     The “drill drill drill” gang is under the impression that North America has vast unexplored regions where oil is just begging to be discovered. This is not true. The New York Times reported after Obama’s speech – in a disgracefully dumb story by Clifford Krauss – that the eastern Gulf of Mexico and Atlantic Coast contain 3.8 billion barrels of oil. Really? Hello! The US uses over 7 billion barrels of oil every year. Does the Arctic National Wildlife refuge contain between 4 and 11 billion barrels (US gov estimate)?  Great, that averages out to about a year or so of US supply. And I’m not even against drilling there, only against the idea that it represents a meaningful “solution” to our problem.
     Meanwhile, the old standby Alaskan oil fields at Prudhoe Bay are depleting so remorselessly that there may not be enough flow in a year or so to move the oil through the famous pipeline.
     How about Canada’s tar sands? Well, first of all, they belong to Canada, not us, unless we want to change that – and that could be politically messy. The tar sands will never produce more than 3 million barrels a day. The operations are already too huge, costly, and damaging to the northern watershed. Canada is our number one source of imported oil, but China would also like to buy Canadian oil. Are we planning to invoke the Monroe Doctrine to prevent Canada from selling its oil to parties outside the Western Hemisphere? That could be messy, too.
     Mr. Obama returned to the popular theme of bio-fuels. Our initial venture into this area was the ethanol fiasco which, predictably, took more energy to make than it produced, and had disastrous effects (still does) on corn commodity prices – in effect stealing from the food supply in order to drive to the Wal Mart. The next venture will apparently be in algae. We’ll discover (once again) that what works as a science project doesn’t scale to run millions of cars.
     Mr. Obama told the nation that we have a 100 year supply of natural gas. (The moronic Larry Kudlow of CNBC told his audience it was 300 years). Neither of them knows what he is talking about (and evidently Energy Secretary Chu doesn’t either). So far, proven reserves of shale gas amount to about a 4 to 6 year US supply at current rates, and total natural gas reserves – including conventional gas, the kind that doesn’t require fracking – amounts to about a 12 year supply. The idea that we are going to ramp up an entire natural gas fueling system for America’s tractor-trailer trucks is an absurdity.
     Ditto the notion that we are going to electrify the US auto fleet.
     Here’s something to chew on: we run about 250 million cars in the USA. Let’s say we ramped up an electric vehicle fleet of 10 million cars – which, by the way, is a purely hypothetical and wildly optimistic number. Do you think it might be a political problem if 10 million lucky Americans get to drive electric cars while everybody else either pays through the nose for gasoline, or can’t even afford to own a car anymore?
     There are a few things you can state categorically about the US energy predicament and the national conversation we’re having about it – including the leaders of that conversation in government, business, and the media. One is that we are blowing a lot of green smoke up our collective ass. None of these schemes is going to work as advertised. The disappointment over them will be massive and probably lead to awful political consequences.
     Another is that we are ignoring the most obvious intelligent responses to this predicament, namely, shifting our focus to walkable communities and public transit, especially rebuilding the American passenger railroad system – without which, I assure you, we will be most regrettably screwed ten years from now. Mr. Obama had one throwaway line in his speech about public transit and nothing whatever about walkable neighborhoods.
     The reason for this obvious idiocy is that it’s all about the cars. That’s all we care about in the USA, the cars. We can’t get over the cars. We can’t talk about anything except how we’ll find magical new ways to run all the cars. This is a very tragic sort of stupidity and if we don’t change our thinking about it, from the highest level on down, history is going to treat us very cruelly.
     A special shout-out here to The New York Times, whose abysmal reporting on these issues, once again, is due to their reliance on a single source: the IHS-CERA group, Cambridge Energy Research Associates, the paid public relations auxiliary of the oil industry, led by that mendacious sack of shit Daniel Yergin, whore-in-chief.


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About James Howard Kunstler

View all posts by James Howard Kunstler
James Howard Kunstler is the author of many books including (non-fiction) The Geography of Nowhere, The City in Mind: Notes on the Urban Condition, Home from Nowhere, The Long Emergency, and Too Much Magic: Wishful Thinking, Technology and the Fate of the Nation. His novels include World Made By Hand, The Witch of Hebron, Maggie Darling — A Modern Romance, The Halloween Ball, an Embarrassment of Riches, and many others. He has published three novellas with Water Street Press: Manhattan Gothic, A Christmas Orphan, and The Flight of Mehetabel.

969 Responses to “Blowing Green Smoke” Subscribe

  1. crisismode April 4, 2011 at 9:50 am #

    To all the idiots that wait with fingers poised to type
    everytime that JHK posts a new blog:
    Get a life . . .
    and after you have gotten it, post some of your real-world experiences that will be of some value to the rest of humanity.

  2. kulturcritic April 4, 2011 at 9:54 am #

    James – Your relevancy is incredible. Energy is only the tip of the iceberg… When this comes down… watchout!! See what we are talking about at the

  3. kulturcritic April 4, 2011 at 9:55 am #

    James, once again, a homerun. There is an entire segment of the world that is standing at the door and pushing this thing to the brink

  4. horseoutside April 4, 2011 at 9:55 am #


  5. horseoutside April 4, 2011 at 9:56 am #


  6. cathmg April 4, 2011 at 10:04 am #

    Thanks JHK, for this perspective on energy. Josh and Rebecca Tickell, producers of the documentaries “Fuel” and “Freedom” recently flew into Maine from Cali to talk to our local high school students, and show their movie, “Freedom.” I assumed that the theme would be freedom from oil dependency and the happy motoring lifestyle, but the real gist was that ethanol is the answer to our fuel needs. I asked Rebecca, “So, we will be able to power our current driving lifestyle SOLELY on ethanol?” and she said yes. I asked if she had heard about you or your blog, and she had not. I suggested she check it out, and that I was going to check out her statement with you. I think todays blog entry addresses her statement quite well.

  7. jimbolio April 4, 2011 at 10:09 am #

    Awesome read Mr. Kunstler. You are back on your game…

  8. Econ395 April 4, 2011 at 10:10 am #

    You are far too kind to Barack Obama.

  9. Truckee April 4, 2011 at 10:12 am #

    First really means Last!
    Back to that scary end of oil story, nothing makes adrenaline run higher. Every other doom scenarion is a distant second place.

  10. Tex81 April 4, 2011 at 10:17 am #

    James, badass piece! Keep it up!

  11. LaughingAsRomeWasBurningDown April 4, 2011 at 10:17 am #

    JHK, great column this week.
    Record corn prices as 40% of the crop goes to make fuel. We tried growing some corn in the garden, but it didn’t do much of anything. On the bright side, you almost can’t not grow potatoes and tomatoes.

  12. SNAFU April 4, 2011 at 10:18 am #

    James, Thank you for a hard hitting return to the “peak Oil” conundrum.

  13. Dasviking April 4, 2011 at 10:19 am #

    The mother of invention is 10/gas…..then we will worry about a energy policy…not until then

  14. artbone April 4, 2011 at 10:21 am #

    Think of what would happen if Obama actually told the truth about what the US needs to do. (Hint: think Jimmy Carter) He would not only be a 1 term president; he would be lucky if he didn’t get impeached or worse in the next 2 years. For all their talk of wanting an honest politician, Americans don’t want to hear the truth.

  15. John T Anderson April 4, 2011 at 10:21 am #

    Jim: Daniel Yergin was a guest on CNN’s State of the Union yesterday morning, and said that the U.S. was “already two-thirds of the way” toward Pres. Obama’s goal of a one-third reduction in petroleum imports by the end of the decade. If that is true, then that fact also renders Obama’s goal even more modest than it already is. And by the way, Mr. O announced that he is running for re-election in 2012.

  16. DeeJones April 4, 2011 at 10:24 am #

    Yep, its all about the stupid freaking cars. Sheesh, if somehow the good folks of the USA could just dump the Monster Trucks & SUV’s and start driving cars that got even 30+ mpgs there might be some small hope.
    But no, that isn’t going to happen…
    So, the USA keeps swirling ’round that ol’ bowl. Sure is taking a long time going down….
    Somehow, the USA has become just a giant Fantasy Island. No hope for it, which is why I left.
    Dee J

  17. carrlot April 4, 2011 at 10:32 am #

    Hey Jim….it doesn’t sound like old Dan Yergin is going to be invited out to the house for Sunday brunch any time soon.

  18. icurhuman2 April 4, 2011 at 10:32 am #

    There’s one gigantically huge monster gorilla that no-one, and I mean no-one, has considered. THE NUCLEAR INDUSTRY.
    No matter what happens when it all falls apart, whether it’s a quaint slowdown where everyone decides to be nice and walk to work, or ride on overcrowded trains and light rail like good little third-rate citizens, or, the whole thing turns into a Mad Max nightmare and the smart ones bug out to their boltholes in the wide open spaces to wait out the die-off, when the 442 nuclear power plants the world over are abandoned they will all in turn meltdown and kill everything that eats, breathes, walks or swims on the whole fucking planet.
    And that’s not even counting the unused nuclear warheads that’ll be scattered around the world waiting to either fall apart and release their highly radioactive payloads into the environment, or be used as a get-even measure before armies, navies and airforces lose all their personel to mass-desertion.
    It might take several years or only months but every corner of the planet will eventually become so irradiated that nothing will survive. Bacteria will die off too, and when that happens the flora will follow the fauna into irreversible and permanent extinction. Thankyou Oppenheimer and company, you won’t even be remembered for your contribution to the death of all life because there’ll be no-one left to remember Jack shit.

  19. Rupert S. Lander April 4, 2011 at 10:32 am #

    Not to nitpick, and not that this may be relevant to America, but those tar sands belong to Alberta (and Saskatchewan), not Canada. Attempting to change their ownership on a domestic scale would be itself politically messy long before the Americans could get involved.

  20. Zanrak April 4, 2011 at 10:34 am #

    Since 2005 I’ve found that few people want to really even hear about the subject of “oil” let alone talk about it. And many people really kind of don’t like you when you do…
    My brother, a bankster, says he talks to world leaders, & they tell him that the world is awash in oil, & nat. gas… His bank has him investing in wind farms in China. He says China is far ahead of the usa in alt. energy…
    But I’ll tell ya, fiddling is fun…

  21. suburbanempire April 4, 2011 at 10:34 am #

    God you hit the nail right on the head, and the wost part is that Americans actually are buying in to this pipe dream of oil independence.
    I shutter when I read the comments in the “FluffingtonPost” and see just how clueless the average American is when it comes to their favorite drug…. oil!
    I personally am going to join them…. I think that America is running out of land to build suburbs on… we need to find a new continent to send out pioneers upon and “settle”… so “Map baby, map!”
    Maybe we can send Richard Branson to sail West from Los Angeles to India and hope that he does the same thing Columbus did and runs into a “new” continent.
    To me it’s as plausible as “Drill baby, drill”
    because “map baby, map” gives as much credit to map makers as the former does to geologists.
    “Drill baby, Drill” is a phrase that says that the energy crisis of the seventies did not happen…. and that oil companies never fully explored for oil here in the homeland.
    Well, they pretty much have looked for oil everywhere on the planet, and the fact of the matter is that the low hanging fruit is gone… and just like poor Richard sailing west from LA to look for land, we will only find places we knew about already… places that are very small and already settled.

  22. empirestatebuilding April 4, 2011 at 10:34 am #

    I had a dinner conversation with someone last week who touted the USA has plenty of oil line. I sighed, and left the table. There is no arguing with these morons.
    $4 a gallon gasoline will be the death knell for this so called recovery. Watch for $4.50 by Memorial Day.
    Meanwhile over in Japan the clean energy savior Nuclear is spewing enough radioactive water into the pacific to wake Godzilla from his 50 year slumber.
    Why is overpopulation never mentioned? There are just to damn many people to support with our limited resource pools.
    Aimlow Joe was here.

  23. Solar Guy April 4, 2011 at 10:35 am #

    “Do you think it might be a political problem if 10 million lucky Americans get to drive electric cars while everybody else either pays through the nose for gasoline, or can’t even afford to own a car anymore?” – JHK
    Be one of the lucky 10 million. Can’t afford a new one neither can I, CONVERT a car. Can’t afford that either? Get an electric bike then. Still too poor? Walk.
    Has everyone started their gardens yet?
    We’re installing a solar array for a volt owner next week.
    Put your money where your mouth is while it is still worth something, get a solar array large enough to power your house. What you can’t afford it? Well then decrease your demand until you can.
    Get out in the public and make conversation, get things going. The internet is awesome but you have to get out there and do things that people can see and touch in reality…
    Started my NEWSBLOG and gaining attention
    I heard Twitter can start revolutions
    Change your way of thinking and change someone else too.
    Do Good. Push On. Keep Smiling.
    PS- We made the local news again last night. Fire, Fire, Car Crash, Car Crash, Robbery, Shooting, and SOLAR!!!

  24. horseoutside April 4, 2011 at 10:38 am #

    I think conservation of energy (using less) is likely the way forward for most people. Like it or not, driving a fuel efficient, small used vehicle is cheaper and will save thousands of dollars in annual operating costs, whatever the price of oil.
    Use a bicycle or walk, whenever possible. Its good for the health.
    Insulate the home thoroughly, wear a sweater and turn down the thermostat a couple degrees in heating season. Lower the air conditioning usage as much as is tolerable in summer.
    Purchase food from local growers and suppliers, and start a food garden for hobby/exercise/education/moneysaving reasons.

  25. savoirphil April 4, 2011 at 10:38 am #

    USA! USA! 21 million barrels a day!
    The world’s cop,the world’s bully, the world’s glutton. I’m seeing “they’ll think of something” replacing jesus as the official mythology of the American Empire. With just about as much credibility.

  26. Rick April 4, 2011 at 10:40 am #

    Thanks Jim for telling it like it is. Really great!
    You’re absolutely right on all accounts. Especially, the car thing. Most people I know seem to think we’ll be driving electric cars, and all will be fine. They seem to not understand the following:
    No oil = No cars, electric or otherwise.
    No oil = No food on the table, unless you grow your own.
    No oil = No plastics or car tires.
    No oil = No planes.
    No oil = No drugs for those who have health issues.
    No oil = No solar panels or wind turbines.
    Coal, NG and nukes will not save us.
    Time to wake up people.

  27. zen17 April 4, 2011 at 10:41 am #

    The present reality you are living in is a direct result of the actions, behaviors and thought processes you have engaged in throughout your life. You have created the reality you exist in already. If you don’t like who you are or what you are doing, it may be time to take a long look at the choices you have made and determine the role they have had in creating the reality you are living in. Everything we are is a direct result of our actions and behaviors. Manifesting reality is not something you start doing now to get something in the future. It is what you have been doing your whole life and the reality you exist in now is a result of what you have already manifested.

  28. MoncriefJ April 4, 2011 at 10:41 am #

    Great post, and without the usual hyperbolic snarkiness of yours, which can be very fun but also distracting. We face incredibly serious problems indeed, and so few people seem to grasp them. Cheap and abundant oil is not a birthright, despite what Americans think.

  29. Patrizia April 4, 2011 at 10:43 am #

    It is election time and the winning candidate must address what people want.
    When you prepare a marketing campaign you first ask: what do customers want?
    Then, no matter what the product really is or does, you promise what they want.
    In the moment they will realize you told them a lie, the purchase will be already done.
    Americans are addicted to energy, so, first comes first.
    Americans also like to believe in miracles.
    You can tell ALL the lies you want, they will believe them, it’s enough they are credible.
    What they won’t believe is the truth, especially if it is unpleasant.
    Technology is the miracle that will make everything possible, especially for the ones who understand nothing of technology.
    Tell them cars will be driven by wind, by the sun, by the geothermic or whatever.
    The only thing you should never say is that may be cars will not exist anymore in the near future.
    That is why they do not build railways…it could show you have no faith in technology…

  30. budizwiser April 4, 2011 at 10:43 am #

    Do you think it might be a political problem if 10 million lucky Americans get to drive electric cars while everybody else either pays through the nose for gasoline, or can’t even afford to own a car anymore?

    Yeah, that’s one way of putting it. Every time I visit this web-space turned crapfest I try to steer discussion toward topics that seem relevent, or dare I say it – insightful to me.
    At some point, someone other than me may figure out that petroleum products should be treated as a national, fundamental social security resource.
    In other words, the nation as a whole needs to have a talk about who, how and what decides who, how and how much their people get to waste oil through needless discretionary consumption.
    Currently, our rich leaders on Wall Street have decided to have the nation just consume itself of an energy cliff with no strategy other than greed being offered as a possible alternative.
    And why not? As long as this nation is left without any leadership to guide discussions about how to demarcate the allocation of energy resources along the lines on the national interest as opposed to personal consumption, there is little hope for a rational transition to national infrastructure that can operate in the face of limited petroleum consumption.
    Sooner or later someone will notice it might have been a better idea to save the fuels used for baseball, football and NASCAR events for running farming equipment and fire trucks. But hey, we’re not even talking about it at Clusterfuck, how the heck you going to get the “regular folks” interested?
    Yes Jim, when it gets to the point that Joe Sixpack can’t afford to drive to the football, baseball, NASCAR event, you can rest assured that the politics of America will begin to change.
    But change to what?

  31. lbendet April 4, 2011 at 10:44 am #

    Just give me some truth
    Thanks for the realistic information, JHK-It can’t be that hard to research this and give a realistic assessment of what any geologist should know, but there’s no scientific discussion going on that people can depend on. That doesn’t stop TIME mag. (cover story) from telling us how abundant shale is. Oh, the double edge sword of it. It’s in everyone’s yard, but so dangerous to remove, is it really an option?
    But why should this set of illusions be any different from all the rest? At what point do we all collectively say “Just give me some truth”?
    On FB some of my high sc. friends are waking up to the scary realities and disinformation going on here and want to see the media cover the important issues we face and be a part of a solution. They still believe in the system, but see it slipping away from them.
    BP has just requested to resume drilling in the Gulf promising to be more careful this time around! You know words are cheap–they don’t cost a penny, so let’s just say, magic words are an asset.
    [Transocean Ltd., the owner of the Deepwater Horizon oil rig that exploded off the Gulf of Mexico last year, has given its top executives bonuses for achieving the “best year in safety performance in our company’s history”,?despite the blast that killed 11 people and spilled 200 million gallons of oil into the ocean.
    Safety accounts for a quarter of the executives’ total cash bonuses. The total bonus for CEO Steve Newman last year was $374,062.
    The company said in a regulatory filing that its most senior managers were given two thirds of their total possible safety bonus.
    The company said its bonuses were appropriate as a way to recognise its executives’ efforts in “significantly improving the company’s safety record” and implementing a new internal planning system.
    Those efforts have “enabled the company to maintain its financial flexibility during a challenging period, while, at the same time, positioning the company for sustained growth in the future.”]
    One has to wonder what happened the years before, that 2010 looks so good!
    Speaking of moral hazard across the board. There is simply no way the oligarchs can lose! No matter how they risk they keep winning the biggest pot of dough. Last night on 60Min. they illustrated just how the banks and their subcontractors committed out-and-out fraud on the mortgage documentation. It’s something out of a mafia enterprise–That’s your big banks, people!
    They’ve set out to destroy the value of home-ownership in the US. The graft is absolutely mind-boggling and you know they will be like teflon. Nothing’s gonna happen to these crooks.
    The Republicans are going to fight hard for the dismantling of the social safety net taking taxation of the rich completely off the board. Now they’re beginning the fight for lowering corporate taxes from 35% to 20%. These guys are jungle fighters so grab a handrail while this budget thing plays out this week!
    –my god what do you even call this system?

  32. Stephen_B April 4, 2011 at 10:46 am #

    Even IF we could switch the US car and truck fleet to high mileage, nat. gas or electric-powered vehicles, we still have the roads themselves falling apart.
    Pavement is made largely with oil. Hot mix asphalt is already very expensive compared to years ago and it’s probably going to go up in price several times more. Then there’s all the diesel used to haul, spread, and tamp down the stuff. Concrete roads, while they last longer, also take lots of hauling and spreading, not to mention the coal or natural gas required to fire the cement kilns.
    No, most of America’s roads have already gotten the last coating of pavement they’ll ever get. Side roads are already going back to gravel by conscious choice in some smaller communities, while other townships and counties will be forced into the same decisions sooner or later. Major highways will lose lanes. Redundant, parallel roads (such as US Rt 1 and I-95 in the east) will start losing sections in places. The only roads that will make economic or practical sense to keep paved are downtown roads.
    Meanwhile, two steel rails last a long time with just a bit of maint. work to the ballast and cross ties, the latter of which are renewable as well. Of course it won’t be “high-speed”, but it still will be better than the intercity alternative coming in the next 20 years as road maint. basically comes to a halt.

  33. newworld April 4, 2011 at 10:46 am #

    Jim you forget it is campaign season for the top slot. Obama made the right move by joining in, so now he can begin the flattery of the swing vote.
    The swing vote in this country comprised of white women and the she-males attached to them. So Team Obama will flatter the young childless types with “Light Rail”, and the older ones who want “good schools” with “green cars.”
    If your angry now, you have not seen anything, and at best we will get the usual CAFE and solar panel spiel to placate your doom crowd.

  34. sevenmmm April 4, 2011 at 10:48 am #

    I need a baseball bat.

  35. MoncriefJ April 4, 2011 at 10:48 am #

    A barrel of oil is $108 today, which corresponds to where it was in early March 2008. We had $125 by early May, $135 by the third week of May 2008, $140 by late June, before we reached $147 on July 11th. Despite our collective love of amnesia, I think we all remembered what happened next.

  36. JulettaofOhio April 4, 2011 at 10:49 am #

    I love the irony of the smug left flying into another state to spread untruthful propaganda about a subject concerning agricultural knowledge about which they know very little. My biggest concern is that we live in “fly over country”, without enough votes available to prompt Obama to even try to locate us on a map of the US.
    We live in (are trapped in) a small, rapidly declining village with three highways out and no foreseeable form of public transportation chugging over the hill. This village used to be small but viable, with a grocery store (much pricier than Wal-Mart) bank and filling station within reasonable driving distance. I could walk to the bank and post office, but with three teen age boys, it always required a vehicle to get to the grocery store. We are so small that the Senior Center Shuttle doesn’t even come here, and neither does Meals on Wheels.
    Is there any logical chance that Obama will want to install public transportation for us? Our area has large grain production and we do have rail service, about twelve miles away into the grain elevator, but there hasn’t been a real passenger train in here for close to fifty years. A trip to the nearest bank is 38 miles round-trip, with a stop at the gas station on the way home. We shop for staples (We have our own meat) at Wal-Mart, conveniently located on our side of the nearest larger city, which is roughly a 36 mile round trip. Gasoline is running $3.65 per gallon as of yesterday. We love our cars and we love to go places, just like anyone else. It’s just that we don’t have travel options and we, as a group, are as foreign to the average urbanite as a Laplander Caribou herder. America is a BIG country and the scantily populated areas trend Republican, for better or worse. We feel that either Obama must assume we all want to live in Detroit or Chicago, WRONG, and this is just one more way in which he totally doesn’t get us and doesn’t care. We aren’t leaving the farm which is a good thing if the rest of you want to eat, but exactly how are we supposed to live? If the rest of you continue to want fresh Ohio produce, fish, grains, milk and beef, we have to find a way to obtain our necessities as well.
    Many of us homeschool, not because we’re nut cases, but because we don’t want to put our kids on the school bus at 6:00 AM for a two hour ride to the nearest school. (We continue to pay for our supplies, plus being forced to pay the over-the-top property and school income taxes which Ohio deems necessary to run their half-empty schools. Ohio has done a truly spectacular job of ruining its small towns with consolidation, that awful trend beginning in the 1950s where they close random schools, destroy the community and stamp out all community ties. Maybe it saves money, but probably not when you factor in the cost of school buses, extra fuel, additional drivers and mileage for teachers lured from larger areas. Another liberal idea which killed off our part of America. The post office is on the “kill” list as well, which leaves us with two pizza shops, one with a tanning parlor, two bars and one barber shop. Any ideas////

  37. horseoutside April 4, 2011 at 10:49 am #

    Just think, if we collectively conserve like CRAZY, and use 30% less oil and gas, there will be a few million barrels a day less needed to import to the USA, right there.
    This will ALL immediately be bought up by the energy hungry Chinese and Indians, every last barrel of it, so THEY can burn it, whilst we bicycle.

  38. rippedthunder April 4, 2011 at 10:52 am #

    It’s all good people, We just dumped 10,000 tons of radiioactive water into the pacific ocean and are plugging the leaks with wet newspaper. Move along now, nothing more to see here!,0,2720438.story

  39. Patrizia April 4, 2011 at 10:55 am #

    Not bad.
    It will be extremely good for health, air and finances…

  40. edpell April 4, 2011 at 10:58 am #

    The big cement pumper truck that is being sent from the US to Japan is coming from the construction site of the new MOX fuel factory in Georgia. A 14 billion dollar factory to mix plutonium from 7000 decommissioned nuclear weapons with uranium to be used as fuel in American nuclear plants. The government will not give up on nuclear. As it runs out of uranium it will burn a mix of uranium, plutonium, thorium. It can do this for 100 years. Yes there will be Fukushimas but the EPA just raise the safe levels of radiation by up to a factor of 100,000 in some cases. [I am not a fan of nuclear, I like solar and wind and oil from cyanobateria]

  41. tootsie April 4, 2011 at 10:59 am #

    “To all the idiots that wait with fingers poised to type
    everytime that JHK posts a new blog:
    Get a life . . .
    and after you have gotten it, post some of your real-world experiences that will be of some value to the rest of humanity.”
    Hey FUCKTARD. All you have managed to do is find another way to shout FIRST. Additionally, you offered no “real-world experiences” to save us, one and all. So, blow me. And thank you for that.

  42. MoncriefJ April 4, 2011 at 11:02 am #

    Rural Ohio thrived so much well into the 1950s precisely because of amenities like passenger trains, locally owned shops, and, most importantly, cheap and abundant oil. Take those factors away, and I’m afraid it is perpetual decline.

  43. Econ395 April 4, 2011 at 11:03 am #

    I certainly don’t consider myself a lefty but let me give you one perspective on the energy part.
    More mass tranportation where it makes sense means lower gas prices in areas where mass transportation does not make sense. A perfect example is … you guessed it, I-395 in Northern Virginia to DC. Instead we have the dreaded HOV lane. If only Bill Gates could use some of his donated billions to help the USA.

  44. George S. April 4, 2011 at 11:08 am #

    On the various goat-fucks we call the ‘news’ they are all babbling about the upcoming ‘driving season’ – nowhere does any of them have the wit to wonder whether we should even have a Driving Season – it is just assumed as another of our long lists of birthrights. We are fucked.

  45. San Jose Mom 51 April 4, 2011 at 11:16 am #

    According to rumors, Obama is going to announce he’ll run for a second term (yawn). Great timing…just after he authorized bombing Libya.
    I’ll bet you a homemade chicken dinner that Hilary quits as Secretary of State and runs against Obama.
    Anyone else out there think Hilary will run?

  46. rblanchard April 4, 2011 at 11:16 am #

    Based upon my projections, Bakken Shale oil production could peak around 2015 if the growth rate of the last 2 years continues.
    I have what I think is a very important commentary that is supposed to be in the ASPO-USA newsletter next week. The basic premise is that U.S. government agencies that make projections or assessments of future oil production or oil reserves provide grossly exaggerated estimates. I base that on a paper I wrote in 1999 where I compared what I projected for future U.K. and Norwegian oil production to that of the US DOE/EIA. For the sum of the two, I was off by 0.0% for 2010 while the U.S. DOE/EIA was high by 116.0%.
    I relate that to future oil production in the deepwater Gulf of Mexico in which many exaggerated claims have been made concerning future oil production.
    Roger Blanchard
    Sault Ste. Marie, MI

  47. artbone April 4, 2011 at 11:17 am #

    Thank you for a very thoughtful post. One thing I would like to point out is that you seem bitter about Obama and the “Liberals.” You live in “fly-over country for the Rethuglicans as well as the Dems. What did Bush do for you while he was in office?
    I voted for Obama because I thought he was a Democrat with Progressive (read Socialistic) tendencies, probably the same reasons you voted against him. The irony is that we have both been disappointed.
    Even though I will continue to vote Democrat (a very good example of “magical thinking”) I realize that the fix is in and the corporations aren’t going to let anyone change anything by voting.

  48. Großdeutschland April 4, 2011 at 11:20 am #

    Yeah. The price dropped to $38. Obama was elected on a platform of ostensible hope, but what turned out to be a bunch of lies. We started another war. Charlie Sheen went nuts and Jim Kunstler continued to rant about a doomsday that is always right around the corner, but never comes.
    Or did you have something else in mind? Did you even have a point?

  49. Kenny April 4, 2011 at 11:23 am #

    Previously, I was having such a carefree time. Now I lay here in the fetal position, crying and trembling. How could I have forgotten to consider Godzilla?

  50. ozone April 4, 2011 at 11:25 am #

    Mr. Kunstler sez:
    “The reason for this obvious idiocy is that it’s all about the cars. That’s all we care about in the USA, the cars. We can’t get over the cars. We can’t talk about anything except how we’ll find magical new ways to run all the cars. This is a very tragic sort of stupidity and if we don’t change our thinking about it, from the highest level on down, history is going to treat us very cruelly.”
    Well, I guess that not only history, but Mom Nature is going to treat us cruelly if this meme gets pushed to the endpoint (which it most certainly will)! Obama always manages to get “nuclear and clean coal” in there when speaking of ALTERNATIVE energy sources; so, go figure what he’s trying to stuff into the mushroom-peoples’* heads?!?
    That’s what’s truly terrifying: except for yourself and others on “the obscure woild of inter-tube-age”, nobody’s calling him [and his “advisors”] OUT on this absolute shit!
    Dan Yergin fer chrissakes; this is the source of the current propaganda (green smoke) that comes from Obama’s mouth (via the tube up his ass)?
    We’re more than fucked. Much, MUCH more, because this clusterfuck will be propped up until it can’t be na’more. Therefore, it will not be a “controlled contraction”, it’ll be a cosmic bitch-slap of dangerous societal and environmental proportions.
    *mushroom-people: Those who are kept in the dark and fed horseshit.

  51. neanderlover April 4, 2011 at 11:25 am #

    I’ve written to my local city council to try and get a cross walk across the busy street where I work in the formally beautiful state of Washington. My God, how much can a cross walk cost, so I can walk safely to work? It takes me as long to cross that street as it does to get there.

  52. ssgconway April 4, 2011 at 11:31 am #

    Excellent read, Sir. I don’t think about what car my next one will be, but if there will be a next one. Often, when out driving, I look at all the waste land around every cloverleaf, highway exit, etc., and wonder, if or when we’ll be planting it to grow food, because of the severity of the crisis that we are in. Doing so would give the land more value than the highways themselves will have, as far as fossil fueled transportation is concerned.

  53. Smokyjoe April 4, 2011 at 11:31 am #

    Thank you for calling CERA and Daniel Yergin what they are: industry whores. If there is a hell, Yergin will spend eternity head down in a barrel of crude.
    You also wrote about the consequences of fewer Americans having cars as the nation tries to move beyond internal combustion.
    At first I was tempted to say “the sheep in this country won’t object, no more than they do to 50 million or so Americans not having any health insurance.”
    Then I re-thought it: when you see someone you don’t automatically know if they are uninsured. If you have a car that runs, you probably don’t want to kill the man who passes you in his new BMW M5.
    But if you are desperate in a dying suburban landscape, with your SUV rusting on flat tires for lack of fuel, and you see the rich man glide by in an electric car, it would be different.
    Folks will start stooping for rocks. I take no comfort from this. One day the dispossessed will kill the rest of us, if our current system continues.
    They won’t stop their beating and pillaging to ask “what did YOU do to help us?”

  54. Cash April 4, 2011 at 11:33 am #

    I don’t think she’ll run.
    But wouldn’t it be a gas? Wouldn’t it be a gas if Hillary actually won? The Clinton Family soap opera live from the White House. Again. Great entertainment. I wonder if Bill would actually move into the White House with Hillary. Bill is an unreformable horndog and I just don’t think he could keep a lid on it. I’ll bet the fake marriage goes off the cliff. I’ll bet that once Hillary gets done with this gig she gives Bill the walking papers.

  55. CynicalOne April 4, 2011 at 11:35 am #

    Yes, Mr. K, it’s all about the cars.
    People are nuts for their cars. Men, in particular, can have an entire conversation on the gas mileage of various vehicles, most usually pick-up trucks. (I know this for a fact because I recently had to break one up so we could get the original conversation back on track.)Geeezzz….
    When people are no longer able to drive their cars as they always have, look out.
    Uprising straight ahead.

  56. J Lee April 4, 2011 at 11:36 am #

    What you should really fear about nuclear power plants happens when they are shut down. Are you going to live without that electricity? Maybe you can use your refrigerator 2/3 of the time. Or just watch 2/3 of Dancing with the Stars. Or fill up your electric car to the 2/3 mark. Or maybe just burn another 23 trillion billion tons of coal to make up the difference. Oh well, that will only increase the temperature of the world by 23 degrees. I wounder how much sun screen will you need then? Or will it matter?

  57. canman April 4, 2011 at 11:38 am #

    I think you got it about right
    reality sucks don’t it?

  58. helen highwater April 4, 2011 at 11:40 am #

    Not to nitpick, Rupert, but the last I heard Alberta was a province of Canada, not its own country, although Albertans like to think it is, as they strut around thumping their chests and bragging about all the oil they have, like Texans when they had oil, as they slowly destroy their province in pursuit of the almighty dollar.

  59. MoncriefJ April 4, 2011 at 11:40 am #

    San Jose Mom,
    Discussing Bill Clinton’s cock? Talk about utter irrelevancy. You seem stuck in 1998.

  60. ragtop April 4, 2011 at 11:41 am #

    Thank you, JHK for finally returning to what attracted me to this site, in the first place. While I find most of your essays entertaining, these are the writings I, more often, forward to friends and acquaintances.
    No on e solution will help the US reduce dependence and that is why the PE continues to shovel the piles of manure at us. They don’t believe we want, need or will understand the message. The entire discussion revolves around THEM fixing the problem, so we continue to depend on THEM. Besides, the new season of DWTS is well underway.
    Some of the best solutions can be done on a micro-scale (wind, geothermal and solar) so, many of us can implement these without THEM. No, these don’t address cars, but you would miss your lights, heat and refrigeration long before you miss your car. Further, these can reduce the need for more nukes, coal or natural gas. It will take many of these kinds of solutions to soften the blow, but the blow will still be painful.
    OBTW, don’t think you’ll escape the scourge of gas taxes through the purchase of that Chevy Volt. They have that accounted for too.… Those of us still driving the gasoline versions will be twice penalized, assuming we can afford it, at all. See the U.S.A. in your Chevrolet!

  61. helen highwater April 4, 2011 at 11:43 am #

    Too bad we don’t have Chavez running the Canadian government. Then we’d be paying less than a dollar a gallon for gas instead of over $5. Instead we have a government that is tucked comfortably in bed with the oil companies.

  62. wagelaborer April 4, 2011 at 11:46 am #

    My town of 24,000 people and a University of nearly that many, has an old downtown, with narrow, walkable streets, some still in brick.
    As you move out, you can watch the history of suburbia, with bigger 50’s houses surrounding the old core, and then the McMansions.
    There is a street and a bridge going out of town towards the next town (pop. 7,000) that are 7 (!) lanes wide. Two people have died on one intersection in the last few years.
    There is a City Hall race going on now, and my daughter is running for City Council on a walkable, sustainable ticket.
    A lot of people “get it”, but some are bafflyingly stupid.
    I wrote a letter to the Editor, and right underneath it was a letter from a guy complaining about candidates who talked about “urban sprawl”. He pointed out that without urban sprawl, Reed Station Road (an appalling example) would still be a forest! He seemed to think that others would be as disgusted with that idea as he is.
    I went to City Hall when they were widening the road to the golf course, and taking part of my front lawn to do it.
    While I was there, I complained about the lack of crosswalks across the busy highway that runs through the middle of town.
    The City Hall lackey told me that they couldn’t put in crosswalks, because that would slow traffic! And they would have to make it so people in wheelchairs could cross and that would just cost too much money.
    Although they spent $4,000,000 widening 2 miles of road.
    And then they put 3 new traffic lights out where there used to be nothing but forest, and now there is a WalMart and doctor’s offices. No foot traffic, however.
    Yesterday, I headed over to the ghetto to canvas for my daughter. There was a couple of middle-aged black women getting out of two cars in front of a ramshackle house. They had a little kid with them.
    So I started my spiel, and one of them asked me what my daughter would do for the “east side”. (Code for ghetto), and I said that she would put in crosswalks so that the child could be safe when he was old enough to get around.
    She wasn’t impressed. I actually used the same words as JHK, saying that the city cared only about the cars, not the people.
    She thought they only cared about the students. Well, that’s ridiculous. Most of them don’t have cars either, and are just as at risk as everyone else. One was killed by a speeding car a few years ago.
    Interesting point. We have very few murders in this town. We have a lot more car crashes.
    But, during the debates, when they talk about “public safety”, it is code for murders and assaults. Really?
    Because, as I always tell people, if a stranger kills you or your child, it’s most likely going to be with a car, not a gun!
    So why is public safety considered to be more cops patrolling the east side, instead of narrowing the streets and building inside city limits, instead of using city tax money to provide infrastructure for land developers out of town?
    And they never say, let’s hire more cops and have them hand out speeding tickets, for public safety, you know.
    Anyway, there are two candidates saying things that are never said in our town. My daughter, and one of the mayoral candidates.
    Probably neither will be elected, but at least the ideas are out there.

  63. antimatter April 4, 2011 at 11:48 am #

    Americans are so urbanized they cannot fathom doing without a car or paying 8 or more dollars a gallon. Where I live, if you walk, people assume you got a DWI and can’t drive, that is how embedded the idea of ‘car’ is in American thinking and life.
    Part of me can hardly wait until the true cost of this car society of ours comes crashing through our front doors like that Kool-Aid pitcher-man. And part of me doesn’t want to be around when this happens. It’s frightening to see how much the car has bound up our society and economy into a nice little controllable, but expensive, ball.
    Good luck.

  64. mow April 4, 2011 at 11:53 am #

    Ration Baby Ration !

  65. suburbanempire April 4, 2011 at 11:56 am #

    To the idiot who sits poised ready to type the word “fucktard” every time someone comments…
    The person who posts “first” brings exactly the same thing to the table that you do….. NOTHING.
    And they make this contribution much more streamlined (and therefore better) than you… Frankly “First” week after week and “Fucktard” week after week are just sort of lame comments
    from lame people.
    Your gift of language that the marine platoon that had your mother bestowed upon you is woefully limited, uncreative, and boring.
    And speaking of uncreative and boring… when goBdoichland the Klansman shows up… before you go off on your ‘white power’ bullshit… I want you remind you that the only reason that there are as many black people for you to hate living here in the first place is because YOUR GREAT GREAT GREAT WHITE GRANDPARENTS WERE LAZY… that’s right…. they were too LAZY to do any actual work themselves.. so they stole an entire people to build a nation for them…
    Do you think it was WHITE PEOPLE who laid all that railroad track out west? It was the Chinese. (who are now funding your little suburban adventure by the way)
    Do you think that WHITE PEOPLE built the South? Sitting on a porch sipping a mint julep calling someone who is actually working “lazy” is not actually ‘building’ anything.
    White People (WASPS) are LAZY.. and they STILL rely on BLACK POWER (oil) also brought from overseas in the belly of a ship to do their work for them….
    I’d like to see you and your tribe of WHITE PEOPLE get along without any oil AND without anyone brown or black to do your work for you….
    You would end up with a bunch of people snapping their fingers and ringing little bells endlessly waiting for a servant to come and attend to them… By the way, if you want to live someplace where you don’t have to deal with black people EVER… try PROVO UTAH on for size (or do Mormons freak you out too?)

  66. CynicalOne April 4, 2011 at 11:56 am #

    We live in a similar situation as you but we live in a rural location outside the small declining village.
    Perhaps in the future we will be carpooling once a month or so to the grocery store and for other errands.

  67. ccm989 April 4, 2011 at 11:57 am #

    Okay, a barrel of oil has reached $108 this morning which means we are probably in for an ugly replay of 2008 (spiraling out of control oil prices followed by another stock market plunge). I can live without oil, I can live without a car, I can live without a lot of money. I can garden, I can learn to stock up home preserved food for the winter, I can even cut firewood if necessary. If necessary I can walk/bike to where I want to go or take a bus/train/ferry into NYC (although that’s super expensive now, and maybe crazy expensive shortly).
    What I can’t live with is Nuclear Meltdowns, radiation, etc. I would rather see ten thousands wind turbines line the New Jersey coast than even one more nuclear plant. We can survive without oil. All of humanity did in the past and lots of them survived. So we adapt to the new reality of scarce, expensive gas or we perish because we can’t. My family and I will survive because we are learning how to make do. Baking bread, planting vegetables, reading up on old skills. It won’t be as easy as touch a button living but we can do it. And soon, we might not have any choice.

  68. artbone April 4, 2011 at 12:02 pm #

    After Bush was elected in ’04 I moved to Mexico to a small city that doesn’t have a stop-light or any stop-signs. What it does have is lots of “topes” or speed breakers as they are called in English. These work like a charm for slowing down traffic. They don’t require hiring cops, buying police cars, setting up courts, and hiring judges. If you speed and hit one justice is swift and automatic. Of course this would never be allowed in the US.

  69. ozone April 4, 2011 at 12:06 pm #

    Go get ’em, Roger.
    Somebody’s got to call out these craven fools and cry, “Bullshit!”, on their fixed and fantasized stats.

  70. Fissile April 4, 2011 at 12:07 pm #

    The Pennsylvania is moving to restrict fracking because of the tremendous environment damage that results from the process.
    See here:…
    BTW, thanks for deleting the idiotic “First!” BS.

  71. MarlinFive54 April 4, 2011 at 12:14 pm #

    Good blog, Jim. It seems like your writing is at its best when you talk about the oil & nat. gas situation specifically.
    From last week:
    Vlad, the intelligence test you refer to was called ASVAB. It was a general intelligence test that measured mental ability and problem solving. Top score was 76 and you needed to generally score above 60 to qualify for any of the good (i.e. technical) jobs. It was my observation that Californians, New Yorkers, and New Englanders did the best and got the best jobs. I’m not sure why.
    Ripthunder, Henry’s are mfg. in Bayonne, NJ, formerly of Brooklyn, NY, owned and operated by the Imperato family. They’re the real deal, beautifully made, with native materials and labor. And they’re a good value, too. Of course there is the historical significance as well, the company being named after B. Tyler Henry (1820-1898) Winchesters first employee and inventor of the (first) Henry lever rifle of Civil War fame. You can’t go wrong buying a Henry.
    CFNation Post 1
    New England Chapter

  72. CynicalOne April 4, 2011 at 12:17 pm #

    Yep. I traveled some of our county roads a few days ago. They have absolutely gone to shit. We had record-setting weather in February; incredible snowfall and temps in the -20’s. In Oklahoma. Mother Nature sure knows how to pile on.
    It has destroyed many of the roads. I don’t remember them ever being in such bad shape. Factor in falling revenues and fuel costs and I expect many of them will never be repaired.
    More evidence of our declining standard of living.

  73. helen highwater April 4, 2011 at 12:20 pm #

    I see you are your usual nasty self today Tootsie.

  74. Nathan April 4, 2011 at 12:24 pm #

    The meek have inherited the website, guess the world is next?

  75. suburbanempire April 4, 2011 at 12:24 pm #

    Sorry goBd… my anti white power rant was actaully meant for Vlad…. got in the shower and realized it…. sorry again!

  76. MarlinFive54 April 4, 2011 at 12:24 pm #

    One more thing,
    Daniel Yergin is not going to be happy when he finds out what you called him today. (And he will find out)
    Don’t be surprised when he challenges you to a duel.
    Flintlock pistols at 25 yards.
    May the best shot win!
    CFNation Post 1
    New England Chapter

  77. neckflames April 4, 2011 at 12:25 pm #

    She won’t run, believe me. I’ll bring a bottle of wine to go with dinner.

  78. Patrizia April 4, 2011 at 12:26 pm #

    The export of democracy in Libia is going full speed thanks to England, USA and France.
    It will proceed in Siria, Bahrain and Yemen.
    They feed on democracy. Iraq was among the firsts, Iran is booked.
    Democracy´s export increases the country´s turn over and helps the national debt.
    The more you bomb, the better is the economy.
    To build 250 new hospitals one would spend like 8 hours war.
    They should, once in a while, take a holiday.

  79. Nathan April 4, 2011 at 12:27 pm #

    Here in Vermont the winter pounds the roads too. When the state makes repairs they just pave over the problems and the repairs barely last a few years. Very short sighted. The interstate here is 7 feet deep in well drained stone and handles deep frost penetration well, but DOT never prepares road beds in this manner.

  80. conchscooter April 4, 2011 at 12:30 pm #

    I enjoy Kunstler the most when he is discussing issues as he has done so masterfully here, rather than predicting future events, which have a habit of not listening and doing their own thing in their own time never mind his predictions.
    I wonder what will happen when Saudi Arabia forgets to pay off it’s protestors, or when Iran feels trapped enough to take the House of Saud on directly. Will it be a black swan or an entirely predictable catastrophe when Saudi Arabia’s ten million barrels a day go offline as suddenly and as spectacularly as Libya’s one point five million?
    I will miss my motorcyle as my daily means of transportation. I suppose we all have to sacrifice something, and China and India will get my Bonneville.I hope they use it wisely.

  81. wagelaborer April 4, 2011 at 12:31 pm #

    They aren’t “left” Juletta, and it wasn’t “liberals” who consolidated your schools.
    But hang on to your hate, it’ll come in handy someday.
    When there isn’t enough oil for every individual to drive 36 miles to WalMart, someone will open a small store with the necessities, and there will be one truck a week that stocks the store.
    When the store is out, you will do without until the next week.
    That is how it was. I can remember it clearly, in my grandmother’s town of 100.
    I grew up in a suburb of LA. The men took the cars to work. That left the women at home, because no one had 2 cars.
    We had a Helm’s bread truck that brought baked goods up and down the streets. We had milkmen who brought milk to our houses and then picked up the empty bottles to be refilled.
    When my mother decided that I should take tap-dancing lessons, to be the next Shirley Temple, a van picked up me and the girl across the street, among many others, to go to the studio.
    There were no soccer moms. We walked to the park to play.
    The US used half of the oil we use today, and life was not Mad Max.

  82. Newfie April 4, 2011 at 12:32 pm #

    Planet Earth is heading for an Easter Island experience on a global scale.
    “In just a few centuries, the people of Easter Island wiped out their forest, drove their plants and animals to extinction, and saw their complex society spiral into chaos and cannibalism. Are we about to follow their lead?” – Jared DIamond.

  83. jimjim April 4, 2011 at 12:40 pm #

    Hey fucktard,
    Not only to you qualify as a FUCKTARD you also fall into the swamp of RACIST FUCKTARD. Congrats!

  84. theroachman April 4, 2011 at 12:40 pm #

    This is good Kunstler but my only complaint would be leaving off over reliance on the use of planes. Which are often even less energy efficiant then my old 73 Camaro.

  85. wagelaborer April 4, 2011 at 12:40 pm #

    Last week I was so busy that I never got a chance to read all the comments.
    But, as I recall, the topic was Was Is To Be Done?
    There were disillusioned Democrats, and hateful Republicans, and people coming up with different solutions.
    Tripp has a quote from Buckminster Fuller on the side of his blog, saying something about how you can’t take on the powerful, you must build something different within the bowels of the old system. (Marx also pointed this out, but that is forbidden speech).
    I know that you like to listen to podcasts, and I ran across this one. Have you read “Web of Debt” by Ellen Brown?
    This is a speech by her that I think you would like. It’s about bypassing the private system of creating money and setting up a public system.
    Her book goes into how it would work in more detail. It has been used before, but the bankers are so powerful that you don’t hear about it now.
    The Green Party candidates for governor in California, Illinois and New York (last year) all ran on state bank platforms.
    Of course, they are not corporate funded, so don’t have a chance, so the disillusioned keep voting for the bank-backed candidates, hoping that they will change.
    Good luck with that.

  86. loveday April 4, 2011 at 12:40 pm #

    Hi Jim and all the gang,
    Good article today, however I think Obama is shooting himself in the foot when he advocates nuclear energy. Especially when news is slipping out of Japan that the population in Tokyo is protesting nukes and saying things to interviewers like, “I want to escape Japan.”
    Oh and also reported over the weekend was a radiation spike 80 km south of Fukushima, coincidentally near the site of another nuclear plant. I have also seen reports by Harvey Wasserman about a nuclear plant near Onagawa having a fire and other problems. If these reports are true I think the entire island of Japan may have to be permanently evacuated. The Russians think so too and have offered work visas to Japanese workers to work in Siberia and the Far East. The Russians as we all know recently observed the 25th anniversary of the Chernobyl disaster.
    Ah spring showers bring… nuked flowers.
    take care all and mind the fallout,

  87. CynicalOne April 4, 2011 at 12:44 pm #

    “I think conservation of energy (using less) is likely the way forward for most people.”
    That’s all most people can do. Many are just hanging on and the ones that do still have money are concerned about food prices, medical care and retirement for starters. I don’t think solar is even on their list, assuming they have any money left over.
    I could be wrong though. It’s just hard to engage people in any kind of serious discussion these days.

  88. Cash April 4, 2011 at 12:45 pm #

    Helen you’re entitled to your opinion. But I was there at ground zero in Alberta in the early 1980s when Trudeau, Lalonde and company inflicted the NEP and that is, IMO, where Alberta separatism comes from. I saw it all unfold up close so I’m qualified to talk about it.
    Now according to Marc Lalonde (you should know who he is) the NEP was in part a measure taken to keep capital and power from moving west. And it had disastrous consequences. As Chantal Hebert said (and you should also know who she is) if the NEP had been imposed on Quebec it would have been an independent country a long time ago.
    For my part, my own life (and the lives of many thousands of Albertans) was derailed in large part by the NEP and my personal finances suffered because of this Liberal/liberal malice and idiocy. You know what, it would by now have been forgotten and forgiven. But eastern liberals just couldn’t leave it alone and just had to follow it up with years and years of insults. Remember? racist, extremist, and as I think you yourself said not long ago, “tea partiers”. And like your little rant above.
    Your anti Alberta-ism is exactly what I was ranting about a few weeks ago, no doubt to the boredom of our American and international friends (sorry). Helen, do you want to do something valuable for your country? Want to aid in the cause of national reconciliation? You know what I’m going to tell you. Because the word “liberal” is electoral poison out west and (again according to Chantal) if you think alienation is bad in Quebec you should go to Alberta. I’m telling you Helen, wise up, because if the stream of insults from you and others like you doesn’t abate the future of this country will be short and the breakup, like almost all national breakups, will be nasty.

  89. welles April 4, 2011 at 12:45 pm #

    I’ve walked to the local coffee shop and back home (1.2 miles round trip) over 3,000 times in the last 8 years (2-3 times a day), in the best/worst weather. Lately been biking like mad, and growing hundreds of gladiolus, peacock orchids etc, really super cheap and great smelling. Haven’t had a car in years, best move i ever made.
    point being, just tune in, turn on & drop out, and turn off ur damn tv, you’ll end up loving it. ever baked your own bread 90% cheaper?
    get out of the matrix. let everyone else worry about the damn oil.

  90. wagelaborer April 4, 2011 at 12:46 pm #

    Oh, to people who listen to the podcast.
    When she talks about “international bankers” it is NOT a code word for Jews. She’s talking about the people who run the world-wide banking system.
    When she talks about the “new world order”, she is NOT talking about the military hegemony of the US after the fall of the USSR.
    She’s talking about the attempts by other countries to bypass the US dollar as the de facto world currency, which forces other countries into financial difficulties.
    The US is fighting back, as witness the attack on Iraq, when Saddam started making plans to sell oil in Euros.
    Anyway, I recommend the podcast, with those caveats.

  91. jimjim April 4, 2011 at 12:47 pm #

    “The US used half of the oil we use today, and life was not Mad Max.”
    No kidding? For fuck’s sake there was well less than half the population we now have. Naturally, we used less oil.

  92. wagelaborer April 4, 2011 at 12:49 pm #

    Yes, when I was at City Hall, I brought an article about some place (I don’t remember where), where endangered animals were being wiped out by speeding cars.
    They tried law enforcement and signs, but nothing helped.
    Until they put in speed bumps. Then the slaughter stopped.
    The City Hall lackey refused to entertain the idea.

  93. Neon Vincent April 4, 2011 at 12:50 pm #

    I had an intuition that you’d comment on Obama’s energy speech. It was as if he was trying to respond to you with a cornucopian laundry list. Of course he failed your standards.
    Speaking of cornucopian solutions, I have a personal comment on one of your observations.

    Note: much of the shale “oil” in other western states is not actually oil. It is kerogen, an organic precursor to oil, in effect organic polymers that have not been subjected to enough heat and pressure to turn into oil. If you want to turn it into oil, you have to cook it – which takes energy! That’s after the mining operation to scoop it out of the ground. That takes energy too. Or, you can send machinery into the ground and cook it in place. That takes energy, too. We are not going to get oil out of there anytime soon – and perhaps never.

    Time for my standard rant about oil shale.
    In addition to being energy expensive, oil shale production is very dirty. I can attest to that first hand.
    My first job after graduating with a B.S. in Geology in 1981 was to work for one of two contractors for Getty Oil (later acquired by Texaco and now subsumed in Chevron) who were trying to demonstrate the efficacy of using technology developed for oil shale to extract asphaltum from diatomaceous earth. The contractor I worked for built a pilot plant that dissolved the asphalt using hot gasoline as a solvent. That approach failed for a variety of reasons, not the least of which was that the plant was built at 1/4 scale, including the pipes, which caused the gasoline-diatomite slurry to clog wherever the pipes changed direction.
    The other competitor built a full-sized (production-scale) retort that baked the diatomite to extract the asphalt, then centrifuged it to separate the liquid. The remaining diatomite was then blown out of the retort tower. The result was a cloud of dust that reduced visibility to 100 feet and blocked out the Sun for 5-10 miles downwind. That technology won and is among those that Chevron has on the shelf right now. If that’s what the oil shale future looks like, then the Green River Basin is going to be an ugly place. 😛
    The fossil destruction alone would be valued in the billions of dollars. The same strata that contain oil shale also contain the best commercial fish fossils in the country, to say nothing of scientifically valuable plant, bird, reptile, invertebrate, and mammal fossils.
    And then there’s the water use…
    The above isn’t at Crazy Eddie’s Motie News yet, but thanks to your prompting, it will be.

  94. montsegur April 4, 2011 at 12:50 pm #

    Wagelaborer: The US used half of the oil we use today, and life was not Mad Max.

    Amen sister.
    For Juletta: I recall rural Ohio (Adams County) from my visits there as a child. My grandfather was forced onto a farm because his job dried up during the Depression. Although my father managed to leave the staggering poverty of the region, my grandfather never did, although it was easier in later years because my father was able to support his parents and pay for modern improvements like a flush toilet.
    The people were poor, but they grew plenty of their own food and there was a general store a couple of miles down the road. Although there were vehicles in the valley, everyone kept a horse as well.
    I recall my father telling me something that even as a child struck me as odd about this part of Ohio, though. He told me how the public projects had built dams, reservoirs, and other public facilities during the 1930s. One of these is a nice reservoir with a public beach and park — and what was the reaction of the locals? It got nicknamed “Roosevelt’s mudhole”, although plenty of them were happy enough to take advantage of it. Maybe some of that was the quirky humor of the old locals in the region; but some of it was also ignorant (note I use “ignorant” and not “stupid”) talk of a propagandized people.
    And southern Ohio voted for the Republicans over the years while formerly successful river towns like Portsmouth degenerated into meth havens. I don’t have much confidence that democratic leadership would have helped the cities of the Ohio Valley much given the direction that development took in the nation after the world war, but I have to wonder why, given the visible failures, the Republicans continue to be elected to office.
    Maybe that’s why the old guys in the hills there drank so much moonshine.

  95. Cash April 4, 2011 at 12:50 pm #

    Wage, Marx was a lousy communist but he was a great student of capitalism. So by all means quote him.

  96. pedal pusher April 4, 2011 at 12:50 pm #

    Adolph Hitler said “The people will believe the big lie more readily than the small one.”
    Jesus of Nazareth made the very same point two thousand years earlier: “The people will swallow a camel but choke on a gnat.”
    As it reads in Ecclesiastes,”There is nothing new under the sun.”

  97. djc April 4, 2011 at 12:51 pm #

    Every week I see comments saying Kunstler is a doomsayer that has got it all wrong. I’m sorry, but anyone who isn’t aware that we ARE in crash, and have been since the 80’s, is living in a land of delusion.

  98. welles April 4, 2011 at 12:51 pm #

    speed bumps work wonders down here in brazil. simple & work great

  99. Preparation-oucH April 4, 2011 at 12:52 pm #

    (more or less)

  100. wagelaborer April 4, 2011 at 12:56 pm #

    I usually ignore you as an idiot, but you required me to use the Google.
    In 1959, the US had 150 million people and used 6 millions barrels of oil a day.
    Today we have twice as many people and use 20 million barrels of oil a day.
    Therefore, at 1959 usage, we would be using 8 million barrels of oil less a day.
    And in 1959, they had already destroyed the trolley system, which made it possible to move large numbers of people with less energy.

  101. jimjim April 4, 2011 at 12:58 pm #

    We don’t need no stinkin’ speed bumps. You have to install speed bumps. Just wait for the inevitable pot holes to develop. Much cheaper in the long run.

  102. jimjim April 4, 2011 at 1:02 pm #

    “In 1959, the US had 150 million people and used 6 millions barrels of oil a day.
    Today we have twice as many people and use 20 million barrels of oil a day.”
    Uh huh. But your equation fails to take into account that “today” we have more ways in which to use oil (plastics, drugs, etc). Hence it is not an apples to apples comparison. Hence, you are still full of shit. (No surprise there.)

  103. JulettaofOhio April 4, 2011 at 1:04 pm #

    Actually, it was the left that started the harmful school consolidations…..research the term of the Ohio governor who was the father of Kathleen Sebelius….. Also, why is it “hate” when I say something but another thing entirely different, like maybe “mind correction” when you say it? I hope the little trucks come by again. I still have an old zinc ice box and it would be nice to have an ice man bring pure ice. We have a small pond from which we could cut and store ice, but I’d like to be sure it wasn’t radioactive. We live several miles outside of our village and I used to walk to school except in the worst of winter. No buses and no exhorbitant taxes to pay for buses, gasoline and drivers. We also had no lunch or breakfast programs. My mother packed everything for me. It costs a lot to run schools today and the biggest insult I ever got over homeschooling came from the principal who accused me of defrauding the school because they didn’t get the state money which would flow in for my three sons. (By the way, my oldest son just took his ACTs mid-term, and scored a 31, the highest score in the last year. That was a rewarding day for me! I also hope the delivery trucks are four wheel drive as Ohio has huge deposits of Bolan clay, almost impossible to traverse in times of wet weather. The state would save billions by letting them revert to gravel, but nobody would be going anywhere, and that’s just a little too much “Little House on the Prairie” to spring on people without some warning. Thanks for all the comments. I enjoyed them and was grateful because I usually feel invisible on here. And no, I didn’t ever vote for George Bush and he also never did a single thing for me. I don’t like NASCAR, but I don’t care if someone else does. I would prefer not to have a nuclear plant close to me (Davis Besse is bad enough and it’s way up north.) Do have the courtesy to comprehend that because I think Obama is a charlatan, a liar and an incompetent government hack, doesn’t mean I’m a cornpone/NASCAR-loving, Bush following, Nazi hick. Also, what the HELL is that about White people being lazy?? My 2x Great Grandparents homesteaded out here and they had no slaves, just lots of swamp and mosquitoes. Please keep in mind that Ohio was the “Underground Railroad” State and many white people risked substantial punishment for trying to relocate slaves to a better locale. We also fought a huge war to free you. Look at your culture and tell me if it was worth it.

  104. ozone April 4, 2011 at 1:05 pm #

    Hit one of those sets of “topes” at a higher than recommended speed and dented a rim on the rental car. I looked for the signs much more carefully after replacing that! (Works great for all the pedestrian and bicycle traffic getting across the roadways as well.) Who needs traffic cops when damage to the vehicle due to a little bump in the road provides PLENTY of dis-incentive to hotrod?

  105. Cash April 4, 2011 at 1:05 pm #

    Suburban get real.

  106. montsegur April 4, 2011 at 1:08 pm #

    JulettaofOhio: Please keep in mind that Ohio was the “Underground Railroad” State and many white people risked substantial punishment for trying to relocate slaves to a better locale.

    Juletta, you’re correct. Which is why it confuses the Hell out of me to see people in southern Ohio flying Confederate flags now — what is that all about? When I was a child, the area was staunchly pro-Union every time the topic of the Civil War came up.

  107. Cash April 4, 2011 at 1:08 pm #

    Jesus of Nazareth made the very same point two thousand years earlier: “The people will swallow a camel but choke on a gnat.” – P
    Obviously had a sense of humour.

  108. Anne April 4, 2011 at 1:09 pm #

    Good and timely information. Some moron just wrote a LTTE at our local rag, spouting the nonsense that we had hundreds of years worth of oil and natural gas in the US and that we did not need to import any to drive our Hummers. I surmised he got his figures from Faux Nooz…disturbing that anyone is promulgating this type of idiocy.
    I finally looked around the local grocery store, which now carries many “natural, organic” processed manufactured foods and my own house, which is obscene by global standards, and realized that we just are not going to change our lifestyles until change is imposed from outside. All these little steps that we environmentalists take – while being castigated for our extremism – are like putting a bandaid on a scratch on Snowden’s pinky finger. The system is so widespread and ingrained we can barely even see it, much less change it. Most of what we do is virtually meaningless in the context of the destruction that’s happening every day.
    It’s depressing that your estimates are for a good 10 years more of this clusterfuck. My only hope for the planet, frankly, was that oil prices would rise so high in the near term that we would see significant contraction soon.

  109. MoncriefJ April 4, 2011 at 1:15 pm #

    “The island of Japan.” Are you kidding me? Japan is a series of islands (2 main ones) not one island. You embarrass yourself.

  110. San Jose Mom 51 April 4, 2011 at 1:20 pm #

    I didn’t say anything about Bill Clinton you stupid man.

  111. judetennessee April 4, 2011 at 1:26 pm #

    Maybe my associates degree in Solar Engineering was such a bad idea after all.

  112. jackieblue2u April 4, 2011 at 1:31 pm #

    That is Exactly how it feels to me. Fantasy Island. Lala land. Disneyland.
    I want to get out also.

  113. Fissile April 4, 2011 at 1:37 pm #

    Speed-bumps are not a viable option in the Northeast because of all the snow. Fist snow fall, and all the speed-bumps/snow plows would be destroyed.

  114. Rick April 4, 2011 at 1:45 pm #

    Jim, one last comment. You wrote: “The next venture will apparently be in algae. We’ll discover (once again) that what works as a science project doesn’t scale to run millions of cars.”
    I agree. And right now some of the big oil companies are about to spend billions on developing oil or NRG from algae. Like you said, scale should be next to impossible.
    That said, what about all the things we currently make with oil, and use it for, like farming. Maybe we’ll just be eating the algae.

  115. Großdeutschland April 4, 2011 at 1:45 pm #

    @ helen highwater-
    If you are going to continue to make snide comments that add nothing to the discussion, could you please refrain from posting at all in the future, so that the rest of us can attempt to enjoy our days.

  116. montsegur April 4, 2011 at 1:46 pm #

    Computer hackers have stolen the names and email addresses of millions of people in one of the largest internet security breaches in US history. The names and email addresses of customers of Barclaycard US, Capital One and other large firms were taken in an attack on the marketing email provider Epsilon last week. British customers of Barclays Bank, which owns Barclaycard US, were not affected. A spokesman for Barclaycard US confirmed to the Guardian that it would continue to work with Epsilon despite the breach.

    Gee, another corporation proves to have unreliable security against hackers and exposes millions of customers to fraud. What a surprise.

  117. ASPO Article 1037 April 4, 2011 at 1:51 pm #

    Jim offers stock comment on passenger rail network, gotta put in some details…
    Oldies like me witnessed end of the comprehensive rail matrix through the 50’s and their demolition in the ensuing decades of the freeway age. Electric cars then too, on steel rails; streetcar lines, electric interurban lines in metropolitan areas of CA moved passengers by day, victuals and freight to downtown terminals at night.
    Railway on domestic energy in mid 20th century was part of the lending not borrowing nation formula. To achieve the magic mix: rubber tire transport in moderation and lion’s share of distribution and mobility on railway mode again, we have to grow renewable generation with the railway expansion. Using rail corridor for renewable generation can help.
    Swan’s book “ELECTRIC WATER” (New Society Press 2007) is a primer on off-the-shelf tech to achieve mobility and sustainable (permaculture) local economic enclaves. Railway track is a better place to put wealth than bullion. The so-called Christian commentators who advise gold refuge are not well read in the scriptural admonitions regarding hoarding gold & silver… Glenn Beck, see James (in the New Testament) Chapter 5; read for comprehension, report findings on the program, please!
    Federal Executive Emergency Orders for motor fuel rationing probably will be in time frame with orders calling in Gold & Silver bullion to preserve bond ratings. This call-up of precious metals is inevitable as the Tea Party’s inept approach to wartime budgeting brings on yet another unintended consequence!
    Back to the railway line… expansion and extension of rail mains, rebuild of dormant branch rail corridor. Reform the rail logistics units in the State National Guard organizations, help for prioritizing the rail branch line rebuild program (agricultural and critical manufacturing traffic). Any junior high school class can get a copy of the US Rail Map Atlas ( for their respective locale, and determine the rail footprint past and present.
    This exercise in preserving the Union of States has come to the place demanding private capital involvement: all due haste railway expansion. The Short Line operators (ASLRRA) are best able to help local groups, DOT’s and individuals with determination of projects suitable, locale by locale. Action will be more visible as the rationing orders are clarified. Two rail scopings helpful for the general public are the 1991 Wilbur Smith Study on the Nevada County Narrow Gauge (helps in context of a branch line rebuild0, and the 1995 Cal Trans I80/US50 Reno Tahoe Rail Corridor Study.
    The ’95 CalTrans Study is good, shows expansion of the existing 1869 rail line along the 80 Corridor, and a brand new TranSierra crossng via the US50 Corridor. The 50 Corridor has plentiful American River Hydropower enroute for electric railway… The study also shows branch line rebuild details, the Truckee to Tahoe City rail line (abandoned 1945) and waterborne feature on Lake Tahoe. As car travel becomes problematic at the Lake, large catamaran ferry service, like the Nichols Boat Company Alameda ferry “PERALTA” will be appropriate.
    Snap out of the reverie. This is going to be a big job: The way to get a job done is to start doing it!

  118. helen highwater April 4, 2011 at 1:54 pm #

    Nathan, I don’t think anybody who knows me would ever describe me as “meek”. I just think a little courtesy makes for a more useful and interesting conversation than simply telling people you don’t agree with that they are stupid, morons, fucktards, douchebags, etc. If we are going to survive what’s coming down in the not too distant future, it will be helpful if we have treated each other with kindness and respect. You never know, the guy you’ve called a fucktard just might be the neighbour who has a generator that could keep your freezer going when the power goes out. Although I suspect that people who talk to others that way on the Internet might be a little more careful when they talk to people in person, so as to avoid getting a fist in the face.

  119. peakhaiku April 4, 2011 at 1:54 pm #

    I feel very torn
    should I run my car on oil
    or fill it with corn

  120. loveday April 4, 2011 at 1:58 pm #

    So sorry meant to refer to the main island of Japan.
    And in any case that hardly matters when the subject of discussion is the possible evacuation of the larger portion of the Japanese nation.
    Obama must be staying a little too deeply in his beltway bubble not to realize the political ramifications of this disaster. Especially in light of the fact that even wind power has many NIMBYs who fight against them bitterly.
    In our neck of the woods most of those who resist wind power are high income people, some aren’t even permanent residents, only summer people who don’t want wind towers ruining their view of the lake. Priorities, priorities….

  121. Jack Waddington April 4, 2011 at 2:01 pm #

    James: I agree; we’re just blowing “green smoke” up our ass-holes BUT I question the initial premise. Civilized mankind needing more and more energy. Less than 200 years ago we survived with so little energy. We’re going to have to go back to that very same place whether we like it or not, and most of us don’t like that idea, specially here in the west. Go to the well and start pumping with your muscles till you get a bucket full of water, then carry it back to your shack and make it do until the next day. that way you’ll make the gym redundant Faucets, switches, buttons to roll down windows and electric carts to go round the supermarket, will be seen for the idiocy it is in less than 100 years. Alas, that requires real thinking beings, and THAT we are not.
    Side note: Stephen Hawking, the great thinker of our time from his electric wheel chair promotes the notion of ‘time’ having 11 dimensions. Otherwise time space makes no sense, which is what it was in the first place; ‘non-sense’ Most of us have trouble thinking of the initial 4 (up-down, right-left, backwards-forward and then time to carry that box along). We’re crazy … but we don’t like that idea either. Jack

  122. Biiker April 4, 2011 at 2:02 pm #

    “Too bad we don’t have Chavez running the Canadian government. Then we’d be paying less than a dollar a gallon for gas instead of over $5. Instead we have a government that is tucked comfortably in bed with the oil companies.”
    Yeah Helen, too bad about Chavez. But it does occur to me that loudmouths with a penchant for “progressivness” would be among the first to be drug out of their homes and executed. Why is it that progressives idolize thuggery? Hey, do you own that cool Che T-Shirt?

  123. jackieblue2u April 4, 2011 at 2:02 pm #

    A few years back, well several actually I didn’t own a car. Took the bus to work, walked everywhere else.
    I was so much calmer. Driving is so DisStressful, is that a word ?
    I love todays topic and JHK’s post is Excellent today. IMO.

  124. MoncriefJ April 4, 2011 at 2:03 pm #

    No one is talking about “evacuating” Honshu, home to more than 100 million people. How do you evacuate 100 milion people? The world is mesed up enough without ill-informed people like you making shit up.

  125. jackieblue2u April 4, 2011 at 2:06 pm #

    Don’t run
    It’s much more fun.
    (almost haiku).
    Walk instead
    It’s better for your head
    You’ll sleep better when you go to bed.
    I tried.

  126. hillwalker April 4, 2011 at 2:07 pm #

    just FWIW, folks talking about the ‘good old days’ of oil consumption, before Mad Max;
    In 1951, the US oil consumption was something like 15 barrels per person/per year. That peaked out in the early 70s (as our domestic production peaked) at about 2x that, a little under 30 barrels per person per year and has been sorta declining since to today at about 20 barrels per person/per year.

  127. Agriburbia April 4, 2011 at 2:10 pm #

    A temporary fix to buy time: all – and I mean ALL – of the auto companies in the world need to immediately start mass-producing 2-seater cars (sometimes called ‘smart cars’) because they are MUCH more fuel efficient than other types of autos.
    People can still own and use full sized autos, but they can use the 2-seater cars when going back and forth to work, for running simple errands, and in all other situations where only one or two people are in the car. Think about it: looking around every day at rush hour and nearly every car only contains one person; that is a huge waste of fuel to transport one person back and forth to work daily, hauling all of that extra auto weight around for no reason. But if nearly everyone used a 2-seater smart car for trips where only one or two people were in the car it would save huge amounts of gasoline daily. The 2-seaters are just a step above motorcycles or mopeds in terms of fuel usage, and if large numbers of people used them it would make the roads safer.
    We need to mandate this in the USA and elsewhere, despite its implications as being ‘fascistic’ since it would save massive amount of fuel daily. People could still own regular sized autos for when they are needed to transport multiple people, but for all those trips where only one person is in the car (i.e., the daily drive back and forth from work) the 2-seater should be used.

  128. Biiker April 4, 2011 at 2:13 pm #

    Hello JHK and fellow doomsters. Excellent missive today….good to see us back on task with Peak Oil.
    I’m looking for assistance in factually poking holes into these fact-based statistics, brought to us by the Drill Baby Drill crowd:
    Brazil has gone from importing 77% of its oil from foreign sources in 1980 to importing no oil by 2009. A great success story in conservation and alternative energy? Not really. Total Brazilian oil consumption still more than doubled. The biggest factor is that Brazil increased its domestic oil production over the last two decades by 876% (not a typo). Most of that production has come from offshore exploration.
    Given the right price point for exploration, and even knowing that peak oil will EVENTUALLY come to full fruition everywhere in the worst of ways…why wouldn’t the US want to be a leader and not a lagger in offshore production during the interim?

  129. CynicalOne April 4, 2011 at 2:14 pm #

    “The men took the cars to work. That left the women at home, because no one had 2 cars.”
    omg. I’m afraid many women, stranded at home these days, would be suicidal.

  130. turkle April 4, 2011 at 2:19 pm #

    Hey, toots. Welcome back. I guess news of your demise was greatly exaggerated.
    Aren’t you jimjim, too?
    You confuse with all these different user names. I guess it is hard to keep track of which ones have been banned, eh?

  131. carlostheobscure April 4, 2011 at 2:19 pm #

    New capital/transportation budget out for state of ohio (process runs parallel with general fund budget) in the last several days. As usual its all highways all the time!
    In Columbus they’ve invested $150 million or more alone in the interchanges near the airport which at this time is simply a decent sized regional airport – enough highway capacity and parking lots, etc. have recently built out there to accomodate 2 to 3 times the flights out of this airport. Hope they’re planning on stealing business from Atlanta or Cincinnati because I don’t think organic growth in the airline business is going to happen w/$100 plus a barrel oil as the feedstock for those big jet engines….

  132. turkle April 4, 2011 at 2:22 pm #

    Solar is pretty good. I know a guy in sunny California who has the electrical meter running backwards, so the power company pays him. He figures that he’d be able to charge up an electrical car for free.
    I heard from a former USGS person that the US has loads of nat gas. I’m not sure where Jimmy gets the 12 years figure. That’s way low. I’d like to see some citation on it.
    Are the shale oil and tar sands returning net energy or are they net energy losers? Someone clue me in on that.

  133. wagelaborer April 4, 2011 at 2:23 pm #

    Nah, they hung out together while the kids played. It was a community.
    The houses were small (900 square feet) and close to each other.
    The isolation of people today, not just women, is a structural problem. If there were any women at home with their kids in the McMansions, they would go crazy, because everyone likes to hang with their peers.
    2 year olds may like to jump off a step 300 times in a row, but 30 year olds don’t, and 2 year olds don’t like to drink coffee and discuss politics. They really have nothing in common.
    That’s why it’s best for young mothers to live in neighborhoods with other young mothers and kids.

  134. suburbanempire April 4, 2011 at 2:25 pm #

    Um… of course I’m a “racist”… Im a WASP!
    We’re all racists aren’t we?

  135. turkle April 4, 2011 at 2:26 pm #

    I’m not sure what Jimmy wants Obama and Chu to say or do. They get it, and they are trying to make changes.
    Do most American people get it? Nope. You can lead a horse to water…
    Americans are stubborn and childish. They’re not going to change unless they are forced to do it, and by then, as we’ve seen, it is going to be far too late.
    Obama is investing loads of money in rail lines. But, if you hadn’t noticed, government of all kinds is broke. How to build up this massive railway infrastructure when we’re fucking broke? Can’t do it.
    And walkable communities are a good idea, but the president can’t force people to build them or live in them.

  136. turkle April 4, 2011 at 2:28 pm #

    I also don’t get that first quote. Is Jim implying that Chu is an invisible figure or not important in Obama’s administration? This is certainly not the case when compared to the asshat Bush had in there.

  137. suburbanempire April 4, 2011 at 2:34 pm #

    Get Real?? About what exactly?
    White Slave traders DIDN’T kidnap an entire people to do their work??
    People like Prescott Bush actually do physical labor???
    We haven’t replaced the slaves with oil?
    Oil doesn’t come over in the belly of a ship?
    Slaves didn’t come over in the belly of a ship?
    Sitting on a porch saying “fiddle dee dee” and drinking mint juleps is hard productive work?
    The railroads WEREN’T built by the Chinese?
    What exactly did I get wrong for you there hoss?

  138. turkle April 4, 2011 at 2:35 pm #

    There’s a lot of good ideas out there along the lines of “If everyone did X”, but the government can’t force people to buy certain products or behave a certain way (aside from not breaking laws) in a free society. The SUV drivers will go on their merry way until gas really is too expensive to continue and…then what? Many are in debt up to their eyeballs. They gonna buy new 2 seater cars? I dunno, but I doubt it. Capitalism will eat itself pretty much.

  139. montsegur April 4, 2011 at 2:36 pm #

    Turkle: And walkable communities are a good idea, but the president can’t force people to build them or live in them.

    Turkle, they certainly are nice to live in. I’m lucky enough to be in one. Food store is a five minute walk. Other stores less than ten minutes on foot. Community is connected by commuter rail and buses. Public still walks a lot and enough people still respect the idea of self-restraint that it is mostly safe at all hours.
    I think if enough people could experience a decent walkable community, they might be tempted to give up some of their motoring. Although I still have to drive some places, living in a walkable community has made me come to see driving as a chore.

  140. Jerry McManus April 4, 2011 at 2:37 pm #

    My local PBS station is re-running the Ken Burns’ “Civil War” epic. Last night was about the run-up to the war and the seemingly inevitable secession.
    Sure, a lot of shouting about slavery, and John Brown doing his little jig on the face of history at Harpers Ferry, but what it really came down to was the people of the southern states seeing their entire way of life under attack. They simply couldn’t conceive, or flat-out refused to consider any suggestion that they should give up the massive amounts of slave labor needed to run their plantation economy. Doing so would destroy them. Plain and simple.
    I shudder to think what paroxysms of blood will butcher our happy motoring hologram when people are forced to confront life without the billions of “energy slaves” currently embodied in the hundreds of millions of cars on the road.
    Maybe we’ll get lucky and millions of people will just sputter to the nearest abandoned mall on their last drops of petrol and camp out on the acres of weedy asphalt, there to wither away in quiet desperation.

  141. theroachman April 4, 2011 at 2:39 pm #

    So let me see if I understand you. Germans and Irish who lived lives no better then slaves and are part of the back bone that built the US are not white? And the Cheifs and leaders of the tribes in Africa who sold the thier people to the slave traders where not black but white? Cause thats what I get from what you are saying. And since Im only have white and half Hawaiian does that make me half as lazy or twice a lazy?

  142. trippticket April 4, 2011 at 2:40 pm #

    “The last couple of weeks should remind us that we have one job left to do that will not necessarily take care of itself. When nuclear power plants crumble like the rest, radioactivity will severely threaten our chance to make things right.”
    Selection from the last paragraph of my 3-22-11 blogpost entitled “The K-T Boundary Revisited.” Read it if you like, and if you’re not offended by evolutionary thought…

  143. ASPO Article 1037 April 4, 2011 at 2:41 pm #

    Resource Nationalism is the ethic of preserving and extending, not balls out exploitation and systematic pissing away of domestic energy resource endowment. This oilpatch unrest in progress will take the Saudis off the “Swing Producers” list PDQ, Mr. Yergin et al. We, the American people, should not be in any hurry- with on or off shore oil pumping… Or gas, Boone ol’ boy. Better to rationalize transport policy, if only for STRATEGIC considerations!
    Resource Nationalism kicks in with OPEC as time passes, and populations (Mexico) permit less export. All the indicators point to backing away from rubber tire mania and going for robust Parallel Bar Therapy (sorry JHK). Army moniker for railway is “Second Dimension Surface Transport Logistics Platform”. A generic definition of railway way over 100 years back was “Guarantor of Societal & Commercial Cohesion”, unknown source.
    Another note, to Canadians: Sell water (NAWAPA), not destructive oil to the Yanks…

  144. Jill April 4, 2011 at 2:42 pm #

    @artbone 12:02
    Yes, we do have speed bumps in the US, at least here in Berkeley. Of course, the way the grass is growing between the pavement cracks, we’ll be driving on lawn in three years and won’t have to worry about speed bumps.

  145. loveday April 4, 2011 at 2:47 pm #

    Let me make this very simple for you, it has been estimated that 11 nuclear power plants in the area north of Tokyo were affected by the earthquake and tsunami. Fukushima has the worst situation at this time. However there have been reports like the one by Harvey Wasserman that seem to imply that other nukes in the area have been adversely affected. The gov there doesn’t want to panic the population, so accurate info on the real state of affairs in Japan is very difficult to obtain.
    No evacuation of the island? The US government has made evacuation flights available to any and all millitary dependents in the area who want to leave. Many Japanese have fled South, even out of Tokyo particularly after the tap water in Tokyo was found to be radioactive. Anyone that can get a flight off the island is doing so. So no of course not, no evacuation is occurring, move along nothing to see here….

  146. wagelaborer April 4, 2011 at 2:49 pm #

    Whoops. These Canadian pilots refused to bomb a hospital in Libya, when they were told to.
    Perhaps they don’t realize that the US targets hospitals, because when people are bombed, they take their wounded to hospitals, and then the doctors hold press conferences and it looks really bad for the “international community” that is busy bombing civilians in order to save them.
    Solution? Bomb the hospitals, arrest the doctors, kill the staff. That’s the US way.
    What’s with Canadians? Too moral to bomb hospitals? That needs to change.

  147. theroachman April 4, 2011 at 2:53 pm #

    You really need to read Howard Zinn’s book A peoples history of the US. You can not blame the sins of people long dead they are not here anymore you can only learn from their mistakes and from their wisdom and move on from there.

  148. Nathan April 4, 2011 at 2:54 pm #

    I am so sorry Helen I always enjoy reading your posts. I was agreeing with you about all the pointless aggression. Enemies are so easy to come by why go out of your way to make more. We live on a dirt road in Vermont. Always slow down and wave at everyone you pass because one day you will be in the ditch (everyone does it) and you will need your neighbor to pull you out.

  149. wagelaborer April 4, 2011 at 2:59 pm #

    Saturday I got to see a preview of a PBS movie which will show on TV on May 16th. It’s called Freedom Riders, and it’s about events that took place 100 years after the Civil War.
    It turns out that one of our local Green Party members was on the very first bus, the one that the lovely white Christian Southerners burned. They tried to trap the Freedom Riders on it, but scattered when the fuel tank blew up, and the riders were able to escape.
    So we got to go and see the movie, and she was there with another Freedom Rider to answer questions.
    What an eye-opener! We grew up in this country, we knew about the lynchings and the burnings, but it is more impressive to see part of it on film.
    My husband pointed out that the version of the Civil Rights Movement that we get is kind of sanitized.
    Bus boycott, bridge crossing, “I Have a Dream”, and the signing of the Act. Presto. Now we have a Black president and everything is just hunky-dory.
    And I have known this Green for years, and never knew that she did this in 1961.

  150. MoncriefJ April 4, 2011 at 3:02 pm #

    This is my last coment to you. You sem to have no sense of geography or population density or scale. Yes, obviously many foreigners and Japanese have either moved south temporarily or left the country altogether. That is very different from “evacuating” an island almost as long as California with a population of 103 million people. If someone were to tell you that plans were in place to “evacuate” (permanently depopulate) the state of California, would you believe it? Now imagine that crowded California actually has three times the population it actually does.
    At the very least, have the decency to provide a link to the article you keep referring to, so we can see for ourselves who the source is and how you’ve exaggerated and misinterpreted what it says.

  151. DonnaDoc April 4, 2011 at 3:04 pm #

    I’m new to this whole concept. What is the source of energy we will (if all goes swimmingly) be utilizing to power our lovely railroad train ? And who doesn’t enjoy the lulling effect of distant whistles in the night ?

  152. MoncriefJ April 4, 2011 at 3:05 pm #

    And most obviously this: Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not permanently evauated after atomic bombs fell on them, yet the entire island of Honshu will be because of current events? OK then….

  153. Jim in DC April 4, 2011 at 3:06 pm #

    It would sure be nice if Mr Kunstler could be bothered to tell us where he is getting his facts. Obama says 100 years of natural gas and Kunstler says 3-6 years. He may be right on the money but how do we know? He can criticize the govt for pulling numbers out of their butts but yet he does it in every one of these posts. How about a simple bibliography or a couple of links to sources?

  154. Hamrage April 4, 2011 at 3:08 pm #

    Absolutely spot on Mr K. We have no choice
    Obama is a comedian. We are facing autoggedon.
    To put more in the tanks is going to tank the economy.

  155. suburbanempire April 4, 2011 at 3:11 pm #

    Hey… I know… but if Vlad can dismiss all the work done by those brought here by force….and people in here go right along with it weak after weak (pun intended).
    Not saying that the Irish and Germans didn’t do anything… but really couldn’t have done it alone.
    Weak after weak Vlad goes into this tribal BS that holds less water than my leaky boat and I see people going “yeah, uh huh” so that by the end of the week CFN looks like KKKFN…..
    Black people didn’t destroy Atlantic City… and they didn’t build it either… they worked there, they did the jobs that were left when every other abled bodied white person was hired… and the white residents treated them like they wanted them to disappear into nothing as soon as their shift was over… and they weren’t to re-appear until it was time to work again.
    Corruption, the car, and mass air travel destroyed Atlantic City… which is only fair because corruption and the railroad built Atlantic City… once the car and mass air travel came into play corruption didn’t stand a chance when paired with a railroad… enter gambling.
    Now Atlantic City has 11 Casino Hotels.. but not one supermarket. It is run down… has high unemployment and crime.. and is occupied my mostly black year round residents.
    They didn’t do anything wrong to Atlantic City… the reverse cannot be said. But at the end of the day Atlantic City wouldn’t have stood a chance against Cape May in the early days without the large Black workforce…. and to sit around now and blame them for the problems that the city has is the ultimate in scapegoating… the city would have never BEEN with out them.
    Of course all white people aren’t lazy… but enough of them were, because they brought a hell of a lot of people over here to do their work for them… slaves are held by people who are not only “LAZY”… But “CHEAP” and “CRUEL” as well.

  156. USA April 4, 2011 at 3:13 pm #

    “What’s with Canadians? Too moral to bomb hospitals? ”
    But not too moral to not possess bombs. What up wif dat?

  157. Steve M. April 4, 2011 at 3:17 pm #

    This was yet another White House talking point with a 48-hour shelf life. That’s because the national attention doesn’t last much longer on big issues. Especially with public transport. In February Obama laid out a $53 billion passenger rail initiative. It was announced on a Wednesday, attacked by Republicans on Thursday, and forgotten by Friday. When it became apparent that there was no support for it – Joe Biden announced it in Philadelphia to a crowd of tens, with virtually no media coverage – the White House simply forgot about it. Being a passenger rail advocate in America is like being an erotic artist in Ireland; you’re simply not going to make many friends. 🙁

  158. oar_square April 4, 2011 at 3:21 pm #

    The Lord has already blessed the US_of_A with the solution to all its problems.
    The tar in the Bakken shale needs to be cooked
    while thousands of spent fuel rods need to be cooled and can’t find a home.
    This is a fortunate confluence of circumstances.
    The fuel rods go in the Bakken shale and cook the tar into oil while simultaneously finding a home out of sight.
    You say that the oil and subsequent diesel and gas
    will be a little radioactive and that upon combustion radioactive particles will float from air to lung.
    I say that this is great. Lifespans will be shortened and social security saved — it will be in surplus.
    The certain knowledge of an early expiry date will urge on people to lead fuller lives sooner.
    Much of the frivolity of contemporary life will be gone and people will all the more appreciate what they have got left.

  159. Nathan April 4, 2011 at 3:23 pm #

    The Vlad approach to reality is a much easier path than trying to understand a complicated situation and then make decisions and actions that improve it.
    Atlantic City does have wind turbines (a positive). I surf there sometimes when I have to stay at one of the Casinos with clients that want to gamble. The actual city is depressing but so is the whole gambling culture if you ask me. The people who still live in AC are poor, I can’t see that they are the cause of the poverty there when so much $$$ pases through the casinos everyday.

  160. Newfie April 4, 2011 at 3:26 pm #

    The CEO of General Electric Corporation (which pays no US taxes!), Jeff Immelt, who is also an advisor to the Obamanator, says nuclear power is safe. ROTFLMAO. Fukushima seems to be more or less out of control and no one has any idea how to stop it from spewing radiation into the air, soil and water.

  161. montsegur April 4, 2011 at 3:27 pm #

    Wagelaborer: What’s with Canadians? Too moral to bomb hospitals?

    Wage, is it firmly stated somewhere that they canceled their bomb run because of a hospital? I ask because of this quote:

    It was not clear what amounted to ‘collateral damage,’ in this case, but Maj.Gen. Tom Lawson, assistant chief of the air staff, said it might have been either civilians themselves or civilian infrastructure, such as a hospital, that may have made the bombing run too risky.

    Sounds like it might have been the case that a hospital was near the target but the statement by Lawson doesn’t make clear that was the situation.

  162. turkle April 4, 2011 at 3:53 pm #

    “Although I suspect that people who talk to others that way on the Internet might be a little more careful when they talk to people in person, so as to avoid getting a fist in the face.”
    +1 obvious
    Do you think lil tootsie calls every person who disagrees with her in real life a fucktard?
    Do you think Vlad lets the black supermarket checkout girl know about his plan to send the African Americans back to Africa?
    Trolling is a time-honored way of letting off steam on the internet. But as far as acting like this in real life or expressing these ideas, of course they don’t do it. Because if they did, they’d get their asses kicked. And they are wimps.
    These are the passive-aggressive types, frustrated that the world doesn’t work exactly how they’re decided it should. They are supremely frustrated and impotent (literally and figuratively) in the meat world, hence the drastic overcompensation here on the matrix with the blustering, chest-beating, and name-calling.
    Well, back to worshiping my Milton Friedman shrine and burning effigies of Obamao.
    TTYL, CFNers.

  163. turkle April 4, 2011 at 3:54 pm #

    Yes, let’s blame all of societies troubles on…
    The darkies!
    How 1952 of you.

  164. Mike Moskos April 4, 2011 at 3:59 pm #

    It’ll never happen, but Obama’s best move would to stop all obvious energy subsidies, dwindling over a 10 year period to allow the necessary adjustments. That would change everything, because the cost of energy would be a hell of a lot closer to its true cost, rather than being hidden in government debt and taxes. (We’d only be concerned about the regulating the pollution.)
    We live the way we live because our energy is ridiculously cheap. (I love the deer in the headlights reaction I get from people when I tell ‘em that.)
    Our agricultural subsidies cause another HUGE set of problems, not just for us, but the whole world.
    The future for cars and buses is the electric with the swappable battery, but as Jim & others have pointed out, they will be driven on poorly maintained roads. Here’s the explanation of the swappable battery idea:

  165. USA April 4, 2011 at 4:04 pm #

    “The CEO of General Electric Corporation (which pays no US taxes!), Jeff Immelt, who is also an advisor to the Obamanator, says nuclear power is safe. ROTFLMAO.”
    Get up off the floor as you look silly rolling around there. Now here is something to ponder: Add up all of the ruined lives and the dead and maimed from extracting and burning coal. (Just count the number of dead Chinese in the last ten years.) Now add up all those who have suffered similar fates via the nuclear energy industry.
    Don’t you feel a bit silly flopping around on the floor?

  166. Nathan April 4, 2011 at 4:05 pm #

    Insightful stuff Turk. I can’t imagine that anonymous name calling could be very fulfilling?
    I like to insult people face to face (although pretty rarely) much more satisfying.

  167. USA April 4, 2011 at 4:06 pm #

    “Do you think lil tootsie calls every person who disagrees with her in real life a fucktard?”
    Do you think tootsie would call you a fucktard in “real life”?

  168. Nathan April 4, 2011 at 4:15 pm #

    Like any conservatives for 2012? I don’t see anyone who can beat Obama. Maybe Ron or Rand will jump in. If it boils down to Bachmann and Palin Obama won’t even need to raise any money to win.

  169. ExtraO April 4, 2011 at 4:20 pm #

    Slight reality check:
    Gasoline in Mexico is currently around $3.00 a gallon – a little less for regular & a little more for premium. -and the price always goes up a few centavos every month by government edict, it never goes down. Since I moved down here a few years ago, for my usual 200 pesos fuel stop I now receive 1/3 less gasoline than I did at first.
    When you compare the price Mexicans pay for fuel to the average income here, gasoline is relatively far more expensive here that it is in the US.

  170. USA April 4, 2011 at 4:40 pm #

    No one (except their mommies) had heard of Jimmie Carter, Bill Clinton or Barack Obammy this far in advance of the elections that they ended up winning. For some reason (stupidity?) all the pols tend to forget this fact.

  171. ExtraO April 4, 2011 at 5:08 pm #

    Re: The New York Times
    Tthese geniuses are going bankrupt trying to keep alive the old model of chopping down a forest each week to print their “news” on. Several years ago when they first started their website, they had most of the content behind a paywall. It didn’t work, nobody wanted to pay and they lost even more money. So what is their latest scheme to turn things around before they slip completely down the drain? Putting most of their online content behind a paywall. Priceless! In light of this is it really surprising that they think that 3 or 4 billion barrels is going to make a dime’s worth of difference to the US’s energy future?

  172. turkle April 4, 2011 at 5:09 pm #

    Am I supposed to care?

  173. scott April 4, 2011 at 5:10 pm #

    Great post this week and the Yergin crack was well deserved. Was just opining about Yergin myself just this past week. I think Yergin and CERA exists because they tell us what we want to hear, that the past 150 years of oil fueled persistent economic growth is sustainable.
    Too much is riding on the past 150 years of persistent economic growth being extrapolated indefinitely into the future. Just think how much debt(which is what our money really is) is extrapolated and structured into the future every day based on the expectation of the past 150 years of persistent economic growth being linearly projected into the future.
    I believe with a great amount of conviction that the past 150 years of persistent economic growth correlates with the past 150 years growth in the production of high EROEI, energy dense forms of energy such as coal, NG and crude oil.
    I do not believe for one second the explaination given for the past 150 years of persistent economic growth by Nobel prize winning economists which of course is, “our greater understanding of economics”.
    Naturally TPTB(governments and major corporations)want to be told what they want to hear which is our economic model predicated on infinite growth is sustainable. Daniel Yergin and other “experts” are merely yes men and would lose all credibility if they even momentarily told the truth about the sustainabilty of the “model”.

  174. Zamboni Dave April 4, 2011 at 5:12 pm #

    I enjoy reading this column and especially the comments afterward. Can anybody recommend any other similar such blogs relating to peak oil, where we’re heading, how to survive and what the future may look like… you know, all the stuff you never hear about in mainstream media. Thanks.

  175. turkle April 4, 2011 at 5:15 pm #

    Dmitri Orlov’s blog
    archived fromthewilderness articles (Mike Ruppert’s old site)
    …are what come to mind.
    Plus there’s a ton of books out there I recommend.
    Overshoot, Catton
    Geodestinies, Youngquist
    The Oil Age is Over

  176. artbone April 4, 2011 at 5:16 pm #

    Yes, gas is about $3 a gallon in Mexico but I fill up once a month instead of twice a week. Makes a big difference.
    Also, what is a fucktard?

  177. USA April 4, 2011 at 5:16 pm #

    “Am I supposed to care?”
    Is anyone on this planet supposed to care whether you care about any fucking thing? Let me answer for your urine-soaked self. No.

  178. USA April 4, 2011 at 5:18 pm #

    “Also, what is a fucktard?”
    Anyone who has to ask what a fucktard is, is a fucktard.

  179. loveday April 4, 2011 at 5:18 pm #

    Honestly, all this info is available on the net very easily. Check out Russia Times, check out Harvey Wasserman on you tube where he discusses the situation at Onagawa. Check out what Helen Caldicott has to say about Fukushima then get back to me.
    As far as comparing Hiroshima and Nagasaki to the current situation is well, just plain ingenuous. The levels of radiation spewing out now exceed those of Chernobyl easily. And that info is also easily available on the net. Of course the dead zone around Chernobyl is still uninhabitable despite some folks going back in there, they are slowly dying from the cumulative doses of radiation they are receiving.
    And no, there has been no formal notice of evacuation, do you really expect the Japanese gov to admit to such a clusterfuck?

  180. turkle April 4, 2011 at 5:19 pm #

    Love you, too, cupcake. Gotta run. You have fun getting banned again.

  181. USA April 4, 2011 at 5:20 pm #

    “Can anybody recommend any other similar such blogs relating to peak oil, where we’re heading, how to survive and what the future may look like… you know, all the stuff you never hear about in mainstream media.”
    The book of Revelations.

  182. Jericho316 April 4, 2011 at 5:20 pm #

    Americans are walking away from their houses, their credit card, their boats and furniture,bBut they will never walk away from their cars. They are going to drive this baby into the ground until the very end.

  183. USA April 4, 2011 at 5:21 pm #

    “Gotta run.”
    I’m guessing you run like a little girl. Just a guess.

  184. barrier April 4, 2011 at 5:34 pm #

    I have been reading this blog for some time and find it interesting but felt I had next to nothing to contribute. I found your post today most interesting because it spoke from the truth of your situation. I would like to hear more from “country dwellers” because I rarely get to hear from them. This whole left – right, obama – bush thing seems to be a distraction from what is really going on. The real issues that must be addressed are not even discussed. I gave up on the democratic party last week after being convinced it is just a vehicle for our corrupted system to co-opt our many good intentions.
    I am sure things will change in the city soon, but here so far, I live in a bubble- life looks the same as always, restaurants are full, Starbucks is packed, traffic is brutal even in off peak hours. They are pushing high speed rail here in California, but I think this is just to get the dollars pumping into the local economies. Do we really need a high speed train for commuters from San Francisco to L.A? It seems to me a better and much cheaper way would be to fix the rail lines we have in place, subsidizing rates to promote full use as an alternative to the car.

  185. Zamboni Dave April 4, 2011 at 5:53 pm #

    Turkle, much obliged for the list of resources and links you provided.

  186. Workdove April 4, 2011 at 5:57 pm #

    Its clear now that Obama is not doing the job he was elected to do. He did not end the two overseas wars, in fact the US is now involved in both Libya and the Ivory coast. He could have given a statement about conservation, peak oil, the dangers of overconsumption but no we hear BAU jargon with nothing new on the horizon.
    I often wonder if they poison the food in the white house to dope up who ever is in the big chair? Clearly Obama is on something, drugged food in the white house would not be unplausible.

  187. Hugh Culliton April 4, 2011 at 6:01 pm #

    “How about Canada’s tar sands? Well, first of all, they belong to Canada, not us, unless we want to change that – and that could be politically messy.”
    Darn tootin’ it’d be messy! Seeing how our militaries are the most intergrated forces on the planet, the element of surprise might be difficult to achieve (at NORAD on 9/11 it was a Canadian operations officer on duty when TSHTF.
    Still, Alberta’s been moaning about seperation for the last 40 years: your welcome to them as long as you promise to take Quebec too!
    More seriously though, I think that with climate change and peak oil, there’ll be a lot of hungry climate refugees migrating north from Dixie, and looking for space to farm. I think we’re all going to be getting a lot closer together in the years ahead.

  188. asia April 4, 2011 at 6:07 pm #

    Does anyone here read TIME?
    This weeks issue ASSURES us [the sheeple]
    that though jobs have gone to Asia they are coming back to us in the USA
    [mike shulman article]
    BY ALMOST 200,000,000 in 10 YEARS!!
    What kind of Pretzel Logic is this that 2 billion poor [and 300? million middle class]
    will give the US jobs.

  189. jerry April 4, 2011 at 6:07 pm #

    Great post!!! I will have to post it on my Marcellus Shale blogspot.
    What upsets me is how easy it would be to allow bicycles on our existing railroad system, without having to disassemble the people pedaler.
    Currently, Amtrak says they have not yet established the “bike cars” for bike travelers. So when will it happen Amtrak? When riding the Rail To Trail in Cumberland, MD last summer, I was told it would happen this summer.
    Every gallon gas saved, is a great idea. But, what is simple is ignored.

  190. asia April 4, 2011 at 6:08 pm #

    I would!
    and Toots, are you now posting under 2, 3 or 4 different ‘handles’?

  191. PeteF April 4, 2011 at 6:11 pm #

    How much walking do you do, Jim?

  192. budizwiser April 4, 2011 at 6:14 pm #

    Boys and Girls,
    Ladies and Gents,
    The current Clusterfuck is hardly an indecipherable mess that talking heads, pundits and soothe-sayers would have you believe.
    A single simple solution to our maniacal self-destructive oil importing can be arranged if our Federal Government had the testes (cojones?) available to levy a gasoline tax commensurate with the costs of our middle-eastern military campaigns.
    When the “real price” of petroleum is presented to the American people, a new clarity will emerge with respect to just who can “afford” oil in a free market system.
    Yeah, “drill baby drill” – I’m all bent over with a broken Coke bottle in my anus.
    But I digress, pardon my interruption.

  193. asoka April 4, 2011 at 6:21 pm #

    USA said: “No one (except their mommies) had heard of Jimmie Carter, Bill Clinton or Barack Obammy this far in advance of the elections that they ended up winning. For some reason (stupidity?) all the pols tend to forget this fact.”
    The fact is that today the Tea Partiers and Republicans are skeered of Barack Obama and will not declare themselves candidates.
    This time in the previous campaign (April 2007) Barack Obama was a declared candidate making his positions public and scaring the bejeeesus out of candidate Hilary Clinton.

    Foreign Policy Remarks at CCGA Remarks of Senator Barack Obama to the Chicago Council on Global Affairs. April 23, 2007

    Obama Outlines His Foreign Policy Views (April 24, 2007); Obama’s Rise Strains Loyalty on Clinton Turf (April 24, 2007)

    Obama on China
    Apr 27, 2007 … Barack Obama, a U.S. Senator and candidate for the Democratic nomination for president

  194. Dbluge April 4, 2011 at 6:25 pm #

    “How about Canada’s tar sands? Well, first of all, they belong to Canada, not us, unless we want to change that – and that could be politically messy..”
    What’s ours is yours! – It was ever thus…!!

  195. Vlad Krandz April 4, 2011 at 6:31 pm #

    I don’t call for the repatriation of Blacks to Africa – even though Abraham Lincoln did. It’s too late now and nobody is going to do it. I merely state that when America falls apart, that Whites have the right to a chunk or two just like the Blacks, Mexicans and possibly Asians.
    The Irish built the railroad starting from the East and the Chinese starting from the West. The Irish built much more of it – possibly because the Chinese had to build thru the mountains.
    There would have been no America without Whites – but there could have been one without Blacks. It would have been different that’s all. The South would have had a different system – and a better one. The Indians were not the first Americans – a Nation is not a geographical location but rather a culture of genetically related people.
    Supermarkets are often unwilling to set up in Ghettoes because of the high levels of theft. Thus Blacks hurt themselves as ever – always with the White Man to scapegoat.

  196. lbendet April 4, 2011 at 6:47 pm #

    I know that you like to listen to podcasts, and I ran across this one. Have you read “Web of Debt” by Ellen Brown?
    Thanks, Wage
    I like Guns and Butter and heard that interview last year. I’ve been following Ellen Brown too.

  197. bproman April 4, 2011 at 6:51 pm #

    Ten four big buddy the gooberment is playin’ the people like april fools. Now pass the ketchup my superfries need a touch up.

  198. artbone April 4, 2011 at 6:58 pm #

    Being called a “fucktard” by someone with USA’s rapier-like wit is almost a compliment.

  199. Cash April 4, 2011 at 7:21 pm #

    I don’t call for the repatriation of Blacks to Africa – even though Abraham Lincoln did. It’s too late now and nobody is going to do it. – Vlad
    Right you are and besides blacks have been there for centuries, are every bit as American as you, have done their share in building the USA and so by any standard of justice have a right to be there. And besides forcibly moving tens of millions of people would be a humanitarian calamity. Another thing: you contend blacks are inferior (by whatever measure) but you’d have to admit that even if this were so blacks are as human as you or me.

  200. Cash April 4, 2011 at 7:22 pm #

    Stop encouraging them.

  201. lbendet April 4, 2011 at 7:54 pm #

    The Grand Failure of Conventional Economics
    Brilliant post today by Charles Hugh Smith (who’s post I visit almost every day) discussing the inability of any of these economic models to deal with the end of growth scenario due to the ever growing population, the growth of the middle class around the world and the limit of oil.
    [Not one of these ideological strands of conventional economics recognizes the limits on conventional “growth” as measured by GDP, increased production, etc. When the planet’s population stood at 500 million, there were sufficient resources to enable a doubling to 1 billion. Then 1 billion tripled to 3 billion, which doubled to 6 billion. Now, the 600 million high-energy-consumption “middle class” of post-industrial economies is expanding four-fold to 2.4 billion.
    There simply isn’t enough oil on the plane… ]
    Sorry, Old.

  202. jaredrodriguez April 4, 2011 at 8:10 pm #

    I’ve been attempting to understand the mental inner-workings of the great majority of Americans. I believe that 90% of Americans see the world (and “live the world”) only through how they interact with other human beings. I know that most humans think abstractly, but I can’t believe that they often think about their physical environment and how it affects them. Most Americans’ sense of architecture and design is based on what color was used. I’m not sure that they can “see” at all. I think most people are completely enthralled in their “social lives,” in their facebook page or twitter feed, or texts (or their thoughts of whether or not someone is talking shit about them). I’ve been asking a lot of people if they can see the way things are set up in their towns. The relationship between streets and buildings, stores and restaurants, etc. They can’t. They don’t know what is exactly wrong, but they think they know. The wrong color. The wrong people are there (minorities are wrecking their town). It all comes down to surface things. Am I nuts? Why can I “see” these things?

  203. jaredrodriguez April 4, 2011 at 8:10 pm #

    I’ve been attempting to understand the mental inner-workings of the great majority of Americans. I believe that 90% of Americans see the world (and “live the world”) only through how they interact with other human beings. I know that most humans think abstractly, but I can’t believe that they often think about their physical environment and how it affects them. Most Americans’ sense of architecture and design is based on what color was used. I’m not sure that they can “see” at all. I think most people are completely enthralled in their “social lives,” in their facebook page or twitter feed, or texts (or their thoughts of whether or not someone is talking shit about them). I’ve been asking a lot of people if they can see the way things are set up in their towns. The relationship between streets and buildings, stores and restaurants, etc. They can’t. They don’t know what is exactly wrong, but they think they know. The wrong color. The wrong people are there (minorities are wrecking their town). It all comes down to surface things. Am I nuts? Why can I “see” these things?

  204. Newfie April 4, 2011 at 8:22 pm #

    You should have a look at Eating Fossil Fuels:
    Oil is key to modern farming. Less oil will mean more expensive food and possibly less food. The article says:
    “To achieve a sustainable economy and avert disaster, the United States must reduce its population by at least one-third. … Quite possibly, a U.S. population reduction of one-third will not be effective for sustainability; the necessary reduction might be in excess of one-half. And, for sustainability, global population will have to be reduced from the current 6+ billion people to 2 billion – a reduction of … over two-thirds.”

  205. DavidinLosAngeles April 4, 2011 at 8:24 pm #

    We don’t need alternative energy, we need alternative lifestyles. Good luck telling THAT to the American public.

  206. jackieblue2u April 4, 2011 at 8:28 pm # may be of interest to you.

  207. theroachman April 4, 2011 at 8:31 pm #

    Dave have you been on Scienceblogs
    The woman running the blog thinks she is saving the world with gen mod foods. She and her supporters can not see the oil food connection. Mostly since high price oil is the gen mod food industry death nell. Science is the only thing that will save us! Nuke power is always safe. >>

  208. Vlad Krandz April 4, 2011 at 9:40 pm #

    Is this possible? Can I be Jah go again? I’m enjoying the tellus site btw. He seems to gloss over the sins of Bhagwan though.

  209. ragtop April 4, 2011 at 9:40 pm #

    The drug in the white house is re-election and the $$$$$ it takes to get there. They all leave the white house as multi-millionaires, regardless of what their social standing was, prior. Think that’s from the $400k salary?
    We will NEVER get straight talk from ANY president. There’s too much $$ telling them not to. Obama hasn’t made a decision of his own in the past 18 months. Power corrupts and Washington is the most efficient corruptor.

  210. TehBigPiktur April 4, 2011 at 9:43 pm #

    Thanks for your thoughtful posts. I live in and travel a lot in Ohio, and what you describe sounds like a real-life version in what used to be small farm towns. My grandparents worked the land in town like that, from the Depression until the 60’s; raised two boys, had very little help (and probably not much expectation of help) from the government.
    Take heart; I think you just might be better-off than a lot of us! It may not seem like it now, however and we’ll probably all go through some hurt before things settle out. Your farm+town has a better chance at being self-sufficient than most of us that are stuck in suburbia. You’ll be able to grow your own food. Life on a farm was hard back in the 1920’s but it doesn’t have to be that hard again. It’ll be the 1920’s with a Corolla for errands, and the internet. The old infrastructure (railroads, silos) might be disused, but it’s repairable and can work again.
    I live in what used to be rural Ohio (when I was a kid) and is now sprawled from Cincinnati to Dayton. Some of the best farmland in the nation now covered with parking lots and golf courses, just makes me despair for the species. I’m stuck here in suburbia for now. I wouldn’t count on Obama being able to bring things that matter (like transit) but you and your neighbors will create something that works…probably when necessity demands it.
    Thanks for pointing out the Underground Railroad past of Ohio.

  211. Vlad Krandz April 4, 2011 at 9:46 pm #

    Sure they helped – but it could have been done without them. And look how much they’ve destroyed – and how much they will destroy in the future when the welfare checks run out. Men come together for mutual benefit and call it Society. We don’t benefit from them and we should separate.
    They used to advertise trips to Novia Scotia on a high speed ferry. In the ad they showed a Black. Crazy. What American wants to see Blacks when they go to Novia Scotia?

  212. turkle April 4, 2011 at 9:48 pm #

    People accept what is put in front of them. It seems like human nature. Credulity is built into the psyche, because it is an advantageous survival trait. I like the example of the caveman who tells the children, “Stay away from the river, because crocs will eat you.” The curious/disbelieving children who decide to see for themselves get eaten. It doesn’t apply across the board, but in general most people don’t question the physical environment they inhabit or the presumptions of the society in which they are embedded. They have no other context or frame of reference (Donny). Most Americans have not been outside the country, so they don’t know of any different models in a practical sense, much less the intellectual aspect.

  213. Anthony Schiano April 4, 2011 at 9:49 pm #

    Great point; its worse than it seems too. WTI is no longer the benchmark for the lightest, sweetest stuff out there. North Sea Brent and Nigerian Bonny Light are the change in your pocket away from a buck-twenty a barrel.

  214. turkle April 4, 2011 at 9:50 pm #

    $10 a gallon then? I don’t think it would fly.
    I guess you could say we pay with income taxes that pay for the defense budget though, no?

  215. Anthony Schiano April 4, 2011 at 9:54 pm #

    This does sound important. Please shoot me a link at when it does go live. I’d love to link to it at
    At this point, every person we can wake up is one fewer we have to fend off or save when the whole fershlugginer collapse thing that we’re in the middle of goes full bloom in the face of the unseeing masses.
    Keep prepping for your coming localized reality.
    Anthony Schiano
    aka President Malthus

  216. turkle April 4, 2011 at 9:54 pm #

    Yes, I’ve heard the 100 years figure, though who knows if all of it will be recoverable. These numbers also use fudge factors like putting a figure on the amount of “Undiscovered” gas. Now how in hell you gonna put an accurate number on the amount you haven’t discovered yet?
    Also, the figures generally assume current usage extrapolated forward as flat, which is not going to be the case.
    Though Jim’s numbers are complete BS, I think. 12 or 6 years or whatever is way too low.

  217. turkle April 4, 2011 at 9:59 pm #

    I’m not of the mind that an epic collapse is going to occur all at once. That seems overly dramatic and apocalyptic. The way I see it is more and more people becoming poorer over time, or individual countries or regions will become wobbly.
    From severely overpopulated countries like Bangladesh, one can sort of glean that humans are tough little buggers and actually don’t need that much to survive when push comes to shove. We can muddle along for quite some time even with severely limited resources. Most of those people live on less than a dollar a day and eke out an existence as subsistence farmers.
    Though total ecological collapse and die-off could be in the cards if the current trajectory is followed. It seems fairly far off (like > 50 years). Or maybe I’m just getting into the wishful thinking and don’t want to take part in TS hitting TF myself.
    As far as humans driving gas-powered SUVs in 2075 and jetting around the world for relatively cheap as we do now, though, I wouldn’t put my money on it.

  218. progressorconserve April 4, 2011 at 10:00 pm #

    Nice weeks work, JHK. You have the most amazing talent – the ability to make things that any basic, garden-variety 5 year old SHOULD KNOW –
    When you say them, JHK, these things sound like insightful pieces of wisdom for the ages.
    “The “drill drill drill” gang is under the impression that North America has vast unexplored regions where oil is just begging to be discovered. This is not true.”
    Yah, no shit, James Kunstler Sherlock Holmes!
    We have already run out of cheap and easy energy.
    We have allowed the US population to run far, far beyond a sustainable level. We have got to stop growth due to immigration.
    I’m getting tired of being called racist, or worse, by asoka, ixnei, mila51, surburbanempire, and turkle for saying that the US is ALREADY overpopulated and that immigration has to stop.
    I’m getting tired of being called a traitor to the White Race by Vlad, for saying that White People are never going to get their own special region, of the former US, designated as a White Nation forevermore. That is not happening.
    I’m getting tired of having the issue of out of control immigration into the US IGNORED by the bulk of posters on this blog.
    This blog trends left/liberal. Our very own host, JHK, has declared that the US needs drastically reduced immigration rates – both legal and illegal.
    So take this concept back to your regular blog and political hangouts. The Sierra Club and the Greens and the Liberal EnviroDemocrats need to get back to their Charter Mission – they need to be advocates for Planet Earth.
    Our RW Republican big business types are not going to stop this Chamber of Commerce induced US population explosion, until FORCED to do so.
    Budizwizer and several others – you keep saying how useless this sort of discussion is. You are wrong. We in the US could have walkable communities and mass transit until Hell freezes over and the Ice Cracks – – It won’t matter one single iota – If we add another 50,000,000 people in the coming decade – like we did in the last decade.
    Spread the word! It might not be too late, yet!

  219. turkle April 4, 2011 at 10:02 pm #

    I liked that Jim’s post today was not of the “sky is falling” variety that he tends to indulge himself in these days. It is all well and good to talk about TSHF, collapse, TLE, etc. But acting like it is going to occur the Tuesday after your Monday morning post, week after week, gets a little unbelievable (boy who cried wolf?).
    Though we know the wolf will be showing up for grandma at some point.

  220. helen highwater April 4, 2011 at 10:08 pm #

    The President can’t force us to build walkable communities or live in them? The government manages to force us to do a lot of things we really don’t want to do, so why couldn’t they force us to live like people who actually want to have a future? All it would take is changes to the zoning laws.

  221. Malagodi April 4, 2011 at 10:13 pm #

    Good post.
    In a recent NRDC article,, the writer extols energy efficiency. This is the “Do More with Less” approach.
    His article states “Since 1973…, our economy has tripled in size while our energy use has increased by only a third.”
    Increased by a third. I counter: What needs to happen is that we must “Do Less with Less.”
    If the industrial capitalist (or industrial socialist) economy continues to grow, as economic theory says it must, along with its fundamental aspects of accumulation and wealth disparity, then no matter how much one is able to increase the energy efficiency, or how clean it can be made, the energy demand will ~always~ increase.
    In other words, even though the amount of energy needed to produce a single unit of anything may decrease, the demand for energy will increase in order to ‘grow the economy’.
    Under the ‘do more with less’ model, all that can be said is that energy consumption will not grow as much as it would have without the efforts of efficiency. That’s good, but we should ask ourselves if that approach will actually solve the planetary problems of the 21st century.
    Under the ‘do less with less’ model, we begin to examine the fundamental questions of human social and economic behavior that have brought us to this point.

  222. helen highwater April 4, 2011 at 10:13 pm #

    Hi Nathan – well they do say the meek are going to inherit the earth (what’s left of it).

  223. Anthony Schiano April 4, 2011 at 10:22 pm #

    Zamboni Dave,
    That’s exactly what I’m trying to do with — it took me three years to shift through online resources once my eyes were opened to how little time was left before peak oil impacts began to be heavily felt, so I’ve tried to provide a roadmap through all the most useful resources (including of course Mr. Kunstler’s fine blog — great post this week, JHK! — and his seminal book, “The Long Emergency.”)
    I’m also trying to aggregate links to useful resources such as ways to locate and join your local community-supported agriculture (CSA) farm. To the rest of CFN, please chime in over there if there’s useful resources I’m missing that I should be linking to. It’s not all bullets, beans, band-aids and bullion, though they’ll all come in handy; there’s enough prep sites focused on those issues; I simply point out the best of them.
    good luck to all,
    Anthony Schiano

  224. turkle April 4, 2011 at 10:28 pm #

    “All it would take is changes to the zoning laws.”
    But that won’t do it, helen. The American landscape is covered in subdivisions, shopping malls, and fast food joints. It is pretty much built-out. A few changes to the zoning laws are not going to depopulate whole sections of the country and cause people to embrace New Urbanism and move to the nearest railway transportation hub.
    Maybe in 1950 it would have mattered, before the country was heavily populated and before the interstates were built. But now? Nope.
    Are you suggesting the government declares that people cannot live where they are currently located by rezoning some areas? What exactly does the government make Americans do that they don’t want to that is the equivalent of forced, mass relocation of millions of people? That ain’t gonna fly. This is not Stalinist Russia.
    As far as I can see, most Americans do what they damn well please, especially in terms of living where they want to (well if they can find a job there), driving whatever car/vehicle they like, behaving how they want to, doing the drugs they enjoy, etc.
    If you’re suggesting that some changes in zoning laws will completely transform this attitude to one of being green and eco-friendly and doing what Uncle Sam says for the good of the global environment, I think you’re completely deluded.
    Even if changes to zoning laws would work, you’re talking about decades, at a minimum. It certainly isn’t any kind of immediate solution to any of the big problems, even in the best case scenario.

  225. helen highwater April 4, 2011 at 10:29 pm #

    Hi Nathan – I look forward to Monday morning at Clusterfuck because it’s like sitting around with a bunch of friends at the local coffee shop shooting the shit and talking about interesting stuff like the future of industrial civilization and the survival of the planet. It just bugs me when some of the people at the table treat some of the other people at the table like shit, just for voicing their opinion.

  226. asia April 4, 2011 at 10:34 pm #

    I dont understand all of what yr saying.
    Sarlo is a Rajneeshi. [as in…..jah?]
    Jodi Reznik [?] has a site where he says Sarlos ‘getting $’ for placements at sarlos site.
    i.e. Saying good things about rich hucksters like Byron Katie.

  227. Anthony Schiano April 4, 2011 at 10:37 pm #

    I’m generally in agreement with you; I just think that at some point when the decline becomes obvious to those who are last to see what’s happening, it looks an awful lot TO THEM like sudden collapse.
    Your point about the toughness of citizens of poorer nations is spot on; I just don’t think there’s much of that left in Wal-Mart and Starbucks America, no matter whether we’re talking about folks who prefer the green smoke blown up their ass from the left or from the right, to stick with Jim’s theme. Check out Dmitri Orlov’s great comparison of all the reasons why citizens of the Soviet Union were better prepared for societal collapse than U.S. citizens are today:
    50 years ’til die-off might well be wishful thinking, though I do not expect a Hollywood-style Super Bowl kickoff to get it started next week, either. I’m hoping for 20, prepping for 2, and expecting to have maybe 5. Potential loss of reserve currency status of the dollar may well speed us on our here in the U.S. of A., keep in mind (sadly).
    SUVs in 2075? Fugeddaboudit…
    Anthony Schiano

  228. asia April 4, 2011 at 10:38 pm #

    see TIME Mag, latest issue, page 56.
    TIME is sure this is a good thing, that the population is growing but in Asia the middle class is as well.
    ‘More Chinese tourists than Canadians’
    [duh, Canada has 30M peeps, China 1500 M so of course whos gonna send out more tourists?]

  229. asia April 4, 2011 at 10:41 pm #

    ‘What exactly did I get wrong for you there’?
    Wrong and 1/2 Truths are 2 different categories.
    See other response to yr post.

  230. asia April 4, 2011 at 10:43 pm #

    Smart Guy,
    Yr smart enuff to Ignore them.
    Certainly I do.
    ‘I’m getting tired of being called racist, or worse, by asoka, ixnei, mila51, surburbanempire, and turkle’
    I dont give a fuck that dale called me a rrrr ..ruuh…racist.
    who gives a fuck?

  231. asia April 4, 2011 at 10:47 pm #

    ‘ If only Bill Gates could use some of his donated billions to help the USA’
    Americans do charity in Africa [according to Jim Rogers this charity often hurts, not helps].
    Chinese Invest in Africa.
    See my post last week about film…’China Meets Africa’.

  232. helen highwater April 4, 2011 at 10:57 pm #

    It’s probably better if the water in an ecosystem stays in that ecosystem. Although nowadays some people seem to think that money is more important than an intact and functioning ecosystem.

  233. asoka April 4, 2011 at 10:59 pm #

    “‘I’m getting tired of being called racist…”
    If the shoe fits…

  234. helen highwater April 4, 2011 at 11:07 pm #

    I think there will also be a lot of decentralization. I can easily see Canada splitting up into BC, the Prairie provinces, Ontario, Quebec, and the Maritimes. Trying to run this whole big country from Ottawa with politicians that we never see in person is really absurd. Just like trying to run the US from Washington. We send Ottawa our taxes then they send some of it back. Why can’t we just keep the money and do the stuff for ourselves? Oh right, centralized government is needed for running wars, etc. Did you ever read the novel by Ernest Callenback “Ecotopia”? Ecotopia was the imaginary secession of Northern California, Oregon and Washington from the rest of the United States. It was very futuristic and idealistic but really quite interesting.

  235. helen highwater April 4, 2011 at 11:12 pm #


  236. Outpost of the Empire April 4, 2011 at 11:18 pm #

    Once again bang on Jim but with one small caveat regarding the Tar Sands and the relationship between Canada and the U.S. In reality Canada is to the U.S. as Poland was to the old Soviet Union. In other words we (Canada) are a semi-independant,client state. Research the Proportionality Clause of N.A.F.T.A. and you will see what I mean. Another good example of how Canadian policy is influenced by the U.S. is when our stodgy old senate recommended decriminalizing possession of marijuana. It was a total non starter in Canada because of how this would affect our relationship with the U.S. As long as what we do dosen’t adversely affect the U.S. or U.S. policy we are free to do it! In that context if push came to shove Tar Sand oil will be developed even if it takes nuclear power to provide the energy. ( once this “small problem in Japan blows over”) As for environmental degredation, well it isn’t in U.S.A.’s backyard and it is a remote enough area of Canada that a little bit of royalty money from the project should placate the fellow citizens of the Empire.

  237. helen highwater April 4, 2011 at 11:21 pm #

    It’s interesting to deepen my understanding of how a racist thinks. Thanks for that.

  238. helen highwater April 4, 2011 at 11:33 pm #

    Well what if suburbs were rezoned so that there could be stores, businesses, small farms, etc. in them? Then a subdivision could become a community instead of just a place where people sleep while they do all their other activities elsewhere? What if more houses were allowed on a piece of property? Why can’t shop owners live in the back of their stores? (They did in the “old days”.) What if lots could be subdivided allowing for great density of population? What if every house was allowed to have a suite or cabin to rent out? In some places a group of unrelated people isn’t even allowed to live together. What if farmland wasn’t allowed to be rezoned for subdivisions as farmland is needed for “national security”? What if subdivisions had to have sidewalks, and grocery stores? What if you could raise chickens in your backyard? I can think of a zillion ways that zoning prevents the development of sustainable, walkable communities.

  239. damnyeitsafinepet April 4, 2011 at 11:36 pm #

    Potatoes sprouting
    On a tray in a window
    Makes a bumper crop.

  240. BeantownBill April 5, 2011 at 12:16 am #

    The main issue I have with this website – and I’m including myself here – is everyone has their opinions and beliefs as to what is happening to our world and offer a wide range of possible solutions, but I see very little or no plans on how to implement them.
    I see us as all talk and no action.

  241. surfeit April 5, 2011 at 12:23 am #

    I’m glad Jim addressed a number of the pipe dream solutions this week. I’ve been on other forums recently and I can’t believe the number of yahoos that think we can just drill all the massive 100 + year shale oil reserves or switch to natural gas cars. There’s actually a large number of morons out there that think we could live happily ever after if the liberals and would just get out of the way. There actually seems to be more goof balls concerned with getting ripped of at the gas pump than they are about surviving peak oil. How can we hope to get through this crisis when the public is still not aware we’re facing a crisis?

  242. WestCoast April 5, 2011 at 12:24 am #

    Solar Power area needed to power the world.
    “Note that in the chart above, there is a likely uranium shortfall even with the light blue “inferred resources” included. The United States has been purchasing recycled Russian bomb material since 1994, and our contract to purchase it continues until 2013. We also have plans to continue buying recycled Russian bomb material after 2013, and to recycle American bombs. These are the kinds of programs which are contemplated in the Energy Watch Group analysis. Even with these in place, their analysis indicates a possible shortfall.”,

  243. SusanBrei April 5, 2011 at 12:31 am #

    Sigh… the absurdity and stupidity rampant in U.S. culture has got me so down. In my relatively short lifetime (35 years), I’ve seen the agricultural town of 2,000 people transformed from a high-functioning citadel of respectable, intelligent middle-class Americans to a bastion for the worst white-trash the mind can conjure. I’ve seen the suburbs of Seattle, and the resulting congestion and pollution, spread mercilessly outward, engulfing pasture, small-towns, forests, and the unique and local. I’ve seen neighbors who used to dress and speak well develop love-affairs with firearms, develop Southern accents, and dry Coyote pelts in the sun where backyard Volleyball nets used to stretch across the lawn.
    Politics are cartoonishly divided, automobiles and homes cartoonishly big, American television/music/literature sadly void of thought, creative expertise, and purpose. My extended family is now cartoonishly Christian, attending a very cartoonish mega-church. Everything has been reduced to the lowest common denominator, a culture designed to make the retarded feel normal, and the intelligent seek the warm embrace of anti-depressants.
    We’ve sunk so low, and at times, I feel like I’m suffocating in a fog of stupidity and ignorance, a sludge of inaction and ineffectual schemes, and an orgy of writhing obese bodies… shoveling everything they can grasp into their greedy mouths. It’s sickening, and I wish I were born in a more forward-thinking, optimistic time where beauty, intelligence, meaning and collective health and achievement are shared values of our culture. All we have to do is build beautiful, walkable towns, trade our cars in for trains and trolleys, grow food and conduct business locally, throw our televisions and cell-phones in the trash, and reconnect with notions of hard-work, self-respect, craftsmanship, and meaningful social interaction. People should WANT to do that!
    Your blog is aptly named, my depressing sage…

  244. WestCoast April 5, 2011 at 12:35 am #

    Does anyone recall seeing a link from this erstwhile site containing a graphic that showed the consequences of human activity as represented by a square showing the amount of material and effect on nature in 1900-
    this being subsumed within a much larger square showing the same activity in 1950?- and this in turn being subsumed in a huge square representing today.?
    Moral: when you see a great website, bookmark it.

  245. Ixnei April 5, 2011 at 12:48 am #

    Concrete/Asphalt jungle! It’s you *new* forest – get used it it…

  246. asoka April 5, 2011 at 12:56 am #

    But doesn’t it feel good to be in the know?
    We are the ones who are not like the “sheeple” …
    The sheeple have no idea “we are fucked”
    The main message here is that action is useless precisely because we are fucked. The constant message is that it is too late for action… a message that paralyzes. Even buying guns and gold is a desperate and ultimately useless action.

  247. WestCoast April 5, 2011 at 1:06 am #

    “Do you think it was WHITE PEOPLE who laid all that railroad track out west? It was the Chinese. (who are now funding your little suburban adventure by the way)”
    Yes I do think and I know that the railroads were built by whites.
    The Chinese did built the railroad over the Sierras, they were small and light enough to fit in baskets to be bravely hoisted cliff faces to drill holes, insert explosives and create the railbed. However, the rest of the nations railroads were almost all built by the Irish.
    The term “Gandy dancing” is Irish English. America’s railroads, with the exception of the Sierra Nevada roadbed, were built by mostly White men and some Blacks.
    Just like the comicbook conservaties, guys like you on the kneejerk left spew factoids without any historical knowledge. Pathetic. Don’t forget to send Obama a check.

  248. WestCoast April 5, 2011 at 1:16 am #

    Don’t forget,
    and the biggest one of all that people forget, Google.
    i.e. Google
    “Grow Food”, you’ll get more information than you can ever get around to using.

  249. montsegur April 5, 2011 at 1:18 am #

    Asoka: But doesn’t it feel good to be in the know?

    Not really. Having more awareness of what is really going on allows one to plan a bit more effectively. But it does not “feel good”; if anything, it only makes one more aware just how badly the situation has been rigged and how ineffective our “leaders” are.

  250. damnyeitsafinepet April 5, 2011 at 1:21 am #

    Very nice posting, Susan. I’m a Puget Sound lifer (56) and I feel your pain. Thank you

  251. wagelaborer April 5, 2011 at 1:24 am #

    You are so right, Helen.
    Change the zoning laws. Duh. When you build it, they will live within it.
    Raise the tax on oil. Duh. People will drive less.
    Government doesn’t have to send troops to force people into walkable communities.
    It just needs to quit subsidizing sprawl and traffic.

  252. Eleuthero April 5, 2011 at 3:32 am #

    Great post, JHK. It really stays on topic
    especially with the “walkable cities” idea
    which the “how can we stay with cars” crowd
    tunes out like a cheesy night club act.
    I also like the hard TIMELINES you give which
    most are not brave enough to give. Indeed,
    by many intelligent estimates, we are a decade
    away from utter cultural chaos.
    A few posters, apparently, have smelled the car
    fumes and split already. Many may criticize
    Europe but they already have walkable cities
    while nearly all US cities have been destroyed
    by ghetto-ization or other forms of lunacy
    (like San Francisco).
    Newer American cities like Phoenix, Denver,
    Houston, and Albuquerque are unnegotiable
    without an automobile. Personally, I don’t
    see how we survive. No hope. So … enjoy
    the moments that are left. And, no, I’m
    *not* kidding.

  253. old6699 April 5, 2011 at 4:16 am #

    Power Struggles, Power Relationships, How people behave and interact with each other…
    One thing that is confusing, that deceives people is to think that what you do is done for some kind of “common good”, for the “good of the economy”, for “progress”: nothing further from the truth, what is done is done exclusively according to a power structure, according to a hierarchy whether explicit or invisible, according to who can force who to do what. There is no common good, or common gain in most economic endeavors there are only profits for a few, labor for most (when it is there and real) and some side effects where most people gain, mostly due to the application of technology and creation of new technology that just happens to benefit everyone (better cars, computers, internet, TV, etc.). But that is a side effect, is not the real goal, it just happens.
    Most economic sectors evolve and evaporate so to say, are attracted to a point where they find the maximum expression of power relationships, of power struggles; so for example, housing prices started to inflate, there was some kind of gain to be made on this on behalf of the sellers and banks and home builders etc., it expressed a very clear power struggle, basically a fight between rich and poor, a fight between who was setting the price and who was forced to follow the prices going up, who was being crushed (the weaker), so this became an ever more important part of the economy, you had a constant increase of real estate agents, of house flipping, of banks lending loans and especially subprime loans. Kind of like saying that 2 entities that are perfectly in equilibrium and satisfied and unaware of each other will search each other out, no matter what, just to fight, even if they are separated by millions of miles.
    No common good was generated by this, maybe the only real common good that was generated, as a side effect, was the construction of more homes than were needed, in the US there are 15 million empty homes, in Europe from, Lisbon to Moscow there are maybe 20 million empty homes. In a rational economic system, these extra homes would mean that those societies are richer, have more resources, there is more general wealth because a basic resource such as homes is more abundant: and the expression of this common wealth would be through low to very low house prices or low to very low rents. What happens instead is economic crisis in the US and 20 % unemployment in Spain.
    So why does this happen ? Because the economic system is not geared towards distributing the common wealth that is generated anyways, even as a side effect, but is geared towards searching out as many power struggles as possible, so people can “express themselves”, can “make a statement”. This economic system and society is deeply right wing, completely biased towards creating as many status challenges – conflict/confrontation points – judgment points – and winner/loser assignments as possible, it is geared towards the maximum expression and total saturation of all productive endeavors into power relationships and power struggles.
    This must be overthrown, changed, and to change this it is necessary to introduce free salaries, cheap rents and huge public – private projects hiring millions for Rockets to Mars, Skyscrapers, etc. These projects give meaning and status to millions of unemployed young people worldwide, it gives them goals, something to believe in, to be proud of, to look forward too, that is being constructed as a collective effort.
    An another note, I was wondering how thousands of trillions of molecules in a man can add up to create a thinking mind, a unit that is monolithic and self contained in consciousness and thought: how do the single molecules, each unaware and without thought combine as entities to create a monolithic single entity ? At what point is there distinction of self and other, at one point is there one entity as opposed to many independent. How does a delimitation emerge naturally, that combines a number of independent parts into a single part ?
    So when the world population reaches a thousand trillion, it will undergo a phase transition and become a single entity, a single mind, each individual mind unaware (or maybe aware ?) of the global mind…

  254. Patrizia April 5, 2011 at 4:44 am #

    Yours is wishful thinking.
    Since the dawn of humanity there was the strong and the weak.
    Once the strength was physical, now it is psychological, but in reality the outcome is always the same.
    The house bubble was created like all the bubbles.
    The rent shouldn’t be cheap, should be the right price, like everything else.
    The bread should cost what it costs to produce it.
    Thousands of trillions of molecules in a man can add up to create a thinking mind, an individual.
    That doesn’t mean that individuals in a society will all have the same importance.
    Also in the human body the cells that make the heart have much more strength and importance than the cells that make the hair or the nails, or the teeth.
    If the heart stops, also the hair dies, even though it would go on living…
    So you see, even in the body the society is not equalitarian, there are the strong cells and the weak ones, the weak been the ones one can go on living without…

  255. old6699 April 5, 2011 at 5:51 am #

    “The rent shouldn’t be cheap, should be the right price, like everything else.”
    No, it should be cheap because, homes are abundant, there millions empty, building them is just a political choice, the desire to create a false scarcity by not building them where needed, etc.
    The right price of rent should be compared to MINIMUM WAGE, and that should be both in the US and the EU (not as mexicans would think Estados Unitos, but European Union) everywhere at about 200 dollars a month for 1,200 sq ft (90 sq m) home.
    Now, go on, protect the status quo, protect beating up the weak and poor, go on, and never mention that all those million of young people in the Middle East, North Africa and Latin America need JOBS and HOUSES otherwise, what else can they do ? break up everything, war, revolution, kill.
    From last week,
    Right Left dichotomy: it is mostly an “artistic” choice, an “existential” preference, an answer to boredom, the choice is essentially a choice of what religion you want to embrace, as both are essentially symbols, abstractions and man is an abstraction driven machine simply navigating pain/pleasure circuits and associating these pain pleasures very loosely with some abstractions, mostly man made pain/pleasure and assignments of abstractions that will generate said pain/pleasure (ex. laid off because you worked less than 12 hours a day which is the norm in our office, etc.):
    1) Right wing wants “Risk Taking” as an emotional roller coaster, as a way to get high, as a way to play an imaginary slot machine all day long, are you winning, are you losing, what is your status, who did you defeat today, etc. An answer to boredom, doesn’t want stability, wants constant change, constant challenges, we do need people like this to start the “startups” that will hire a few hundred here and there, they have their use. They want “incentives”, they don’t find the incentives in what they do, but in what they win, in how much they gain compared to another, the other person is always present as a comparison point, as in constant competition, competition is the constantly measuring and interacting of items between themselves so as to constantly define them, modify their behavior, the measurement is the definition of the item.
    2) Left wing wants stability, the incentive is in the simplicity in a sense, they are more geared towards collective efforts, towards large scale efforts, this is what most people really desire, we need these kinds.
    Both religions think that everybody should be either one way or another, nothing further from the truth, we need both, but most people are simply naturally left wing, don’t want constant instability, risk taking, emotional narrative and roller coaster all day long, don’t get bored that easily that they need that constant high.
    Now, given that a healthy economic system can use both, but the ratio is mostly 10 to 1 (or something like that), 10 stability seeking people, 1 person looking for risk taking and opening his own business. So given millions of people, it is absurd to think they can all be playing an imaginary slot machine of risk taking and incentives based on how much they gain compared to another game: it simply can’t work, there are simply not enough possibilities or opportunities for this in the real world.
    A healthy economic system uses a mix of both, it can use the risk taking start up to generate new sectors, but if this doesn’t cut it, the government should start new public projects, it is that simple. There is no “one size fits all”, but the dominating economic model which is completely and totally biased towards the right wing thinks that one size fits all, either you are a risk taking, startup, your own boss and small business or you deserve to drop dead because you are not contributing to productivity or competition. This is totally false.
    But the present economic model wants to pretend that everyone must be right ring, risk taking, incentive based living. This is false, also because competition in most sectors has been achieved, is saturated, you can’t really get much more competition out of most sectors, it is a diminishing return proposition, so maybe at this point the dominating mostly right wing economic model wants to propose simply slugging it out, fighting each other, war.
    We have millions of now educated and connected unemployed young people in the Middle East and North Africa and also in Latin America, what are we going to do with them ? make them all go crazy and slug it out, make them start revolutions and wars ? No, we need huge large scale projects to employ millions of these, the governments worldwide must start as many as possible. Is it better to spend money on the tomahawks blowing things up in Libya or getting all those young men building apartment houses ? Is that so hard to understand ? Why do people not see this ? Is it so hard to understand that they need HOUSES and JOBs ? I never once heard anyone ever mention this in all the wars that are fought in Irak, Afghanistan and now Libya.
    Another thing I was thinking is the serialized and accumulating labor processes, where the labor of many adds up into something greater than the parts. If you look at natural evolution it did just that completely by blind chance, it started out with some carbon molecules and ended up creating a thinking man, which is itself a huge accumulated and serialized effort product. A man is made up of a thousand trillion molecules all executing chemical reactions and interactions in perfect equilibrium to produce thinking minds, Mind over Matter. It is strange how an ensemble of millions of people cannot produce something greater than the parts, or has great difficulty in doing so, maybe we are still at the very beginning of the turbulent initial phase, just like natural evolution started out randomly with some carbon molecules bumping into each other.
    Maybe when humanity reaches a population of thousands of trillions, just like the number of molecules in a man, and an advance enough technology it will undergo a phase transition and know how to serialize and accumulate all labor processes to create a higher level mind, a single MIND composed of thousands of trillions of other minds.

  256. old6699 April 5, 2011 at 5:58 am #

    Right Wing Thug says:
    “The rent shouldn’t be cheap, should be the right price, like everything else.”
    I answer:
    No, it should be cheap because, homes are abundant, there millions empty, building them is just a political choice, the desire to create a false scarcity by not building them where needed, etc.
    The right price of rent should be compared to MINIMUM WAGE, and that should be both in the US and the EU (not as mexicans would think Estados Unitos, but European Union) everywhere at about 200 dollars a month for 1,200 sq ft (90 sq m) home.
    Now, go on, protect the status quo, protect beating up the weak and poor, go on, and never mention that all those million of young people in the Middle East, North Africa and Latin America need JOBS and HOUSES otherwise, what else can they do ? break up everything, war, revolution, kill.

  257. Nikolaz April 5, 2011 at 6:15 am #

    The USA is 5% of the world population and uses 25% of the worlds oil – most of it by their military. How the hell can they possibly expect to perpetuate this gargantuan nonsense. What about the rest of us (ie. the world). A wake up slap on the side of the head is long overdue!

  258. old6699 April 5, 2011 at 6:27 am #

    “Will it be a black swan or an entirely predictable catastrophe when Saudi Arabia’s ten million barrels a day go offline as suddenly and as spectacularly as Libya’s one point five million?”
    Nothing will happen. Gas prices will go up. Big Deal. The EU and JAPAN have dealt with 10 dollars a gallon gas and even more for decades and got by perfectly, not only living their own “happy motoring” but actually exporting much of their “happy motors” to the US.
    They need to create small centers with at least apartment house buildings of 7 to 10 floors (a lot of nice designs can be found in Switzerland, Germany, France and JAPAN, Skyscrapers would be better, but they are not very popular on this blog), and hook up all these centers with Mass Transit in the form of BUSES.

  259. Patrizia April 5, 2011 at 6:56 am #

    In a skyscraper what you save in gasoline you spend in electricity for the elevator.
    And depending on how it costs to build a house (including the land) if you want prices like 200 dollars for rent I am sure people won´t be able to find a house in New York or Milano.
    Simply because nobody would build it.
    Nobody works for losing money…
    In Europe in certain places the land is very expensive, because there is no land anymore and you have a surplus of houses where nobody lives, because there are no available jobs…

  260. MarlinFive54 April 5, 2011 at 7:25 am #

    BTownBill says … “I see CFN as all talk and no action” (I paraphrase)
    Not completely true, BTownBill. What about Trippticket in Georgia with his 300 acre farm, a good example of a “World made by Hand”? Many, many more of us (including me) have smaller, sustainable operations we work at to the best of our ability. I’m thinking of Asoka, Nathan, PoC, Ripthunder … I’m sure there are many others. True, we aren’t out on the streets like its Seattle 1999. Buts that’s all counterproductive anyway. Self reliance and cooperation with ones neighbors … that’s how real communities are built and that’s how we will have a future.
    Not to be the contrarian, but, Nikolaz says, “… the US is 5% of the world’s population and uses 25% of the world’s oil – most of it by the military”.
    That’s not really accurate, Nikolaz, on two counts. The US is using roughly 19.5 million bpd right now, out of a total daily world demand of about 87 million bpd. That’s not 25%. Also, in the midst of 3 major military campaigns, our armed forces oil demand amounts to about 400,000 barrels per day, less than 5% of total.
    CFNation YD Post 1
    New England Chapter

  261. old6699 April 5, 2011 at 8:03 am #

    Words are important. They are the mechanism that is used to brainwash, maybe a better term would be “to program”, just like a computer, to program the neural networks of millions of people worldwide into a very simple one track mind – mentality. for example, everyone keeps on saying that the revolutions in North Africa and Middle East are for “democracy” and freedom”. These words are used so much by everyone, it isn’t even funny. And yet exactly what would be democracy ? The possibility to choose a government “that should do your ECONOMIC interests”, because when you really get down past all the fluff, it is only the economic – materialistic well being that those millions of young people are looking for.
    And exactly what are these materialistic – economic interests ? HOUSES and JOBS / or IF NO JOBS FREE SALARIES. But no one even thinks that they need these 2 things, they themselves, those young people just chant, like a broken record, we need democracy and freedom. They have been totally brainwashed with this Right Wing Thug system, where they will give you all the freedom and democracy you want, BUT WILL NEVER GIVE YOU JOBS OR AT LEAST, IN ALTERNATIVE A FREE SALARY, AND THEN A DECENT HOME WITH CHEAP RENT.
    That is what is needed by millions worldwide, only that, the basics. But as soon as you start talking about homes and house prices and rents, especially cheap rents as appropriate to minimum wages, everyone’s program “crashes”. It is like a short circuit, like when patrizia says “rents should be the right price”, it is totally impossible to conceive or imagine. They weren’t programmed to think in those terms, they can’t even conceive of it. What ? Cheap Rents, Are You Crazy ? Of course, who asks for cheap rents is Crazy! Because it is exactly through the mechanism of house values and high rents that so many small property owners can express their Power Status, their power relationship to either the unemployed of the minimum wage workers. House ownership and house prices are the huge wall of exclusion that property owners work all their life for to build, as a statement of status, as a statement of power, as a statement of power relationships to the weaker classes.
    But this is constructed by design, this is completely artificial, is a system that the capitalists have constructed to exclude the lower classes and wage a total class warfare against millions of weaker people worldwide. It is not natural, it is not correct, it is simply a statement, that goes like this :
    “since our economy is so rich it could easily provide for cheap rents for everyone, it is totally available (in fact there are 15 million empty homes in the US and 20 million in Europe from Lisbon to Moscow), but since millions of others have been programmed to hate on the weaker, to express themselves through the power relationship and power status home prices and rents represent, these cheap rents or home prices will not be furnished, indeed, it is desired that they keep on going up as high as possible”.
    So then, it would be more honest to say to all those millions of young kids around the globe needing JOBS and HOUSES, you won’t get it, WE SIMPLY WILL NOT GIVE IT TO YOU, JUST BECAUSE, because we said so, with no other deeper metaphysical or economic reason available, because there are none. It is only me (richer) against you (poorer) and you (poorer) will lose always because you are the weaker class. Of course they are more sophisticated than this: they will say skill sets, competition, productivity, you have to deserve it, small businesses, be your own boss, etc. a never ending list of excuses to hide their egotism, that is hidden even to themselves, they don’t even notice how they are themselves programmed.
    Now, go on, all those young kids fighting revolutions and wars in Libya or wherever, keep on saying you need democracy and freedom, AND NOT THAT WHAT YOU REALLY NEED IS JOBS AND HOUSES.

  262. MarlinFive54 April 5, 2011 at 8:19 am #

    For Christ Sake, Old6699, give it up. Its the same goddamn thing everyday. Think up something else beside free houses and free salaries for all. WTF is wrong with you?
    I’ve been freezing my ass off here in CT for the past 7 months, since October, but I’m on board now a little with all the global warming bullshit. Does anybody know, though, when it is going to start warming up for real, and not just in theory? Because I could use some warm weather pretty soon. And its already April.
    CFNation YD Post 1
    New England Chapter

  263. old6699 April 5, 2011 at 8:19 am #

    Even because if they were to say they needed JOBS and HOUSES, that would directly restrict to a very narrow choice the political choices that could be made: You are then force to give them jobs or a free salary, and build and provide homes with cheap rents. This is too blunt. The real war, power struggle, fight would become very apparent to everyone, there would be no more hiding behind words, concepts and abstractions, like economic growth, investments, etc.
    So everyone is extra careful never to mention what exactly is really needed, what is creating so much unhappiness and anger worldwide, be extra careful, maybe the huge deception would become too apparent…

  264. Patrizia April 5, 2011 at 9:13 am #

    If your dreams come true, believe me everybody would be happy.
    In reality it will be the opposite.
    We will ALL have no jobs and may be rotten houses, because they built a lot of them, but the way they do it, they do not last long…

  265. Laura Louzader April 5, 2011 at 9:23 am #

    I’m very amused by the April Eyesore of the ersatz “New Urbanist”-inspired false main street big barn store in Aurora (exurban Chicago) Illinois. Aurora is one of Chicago’s many doomed outer suburbs that has lost a lot of value post-housing crash and has become an undesirable and rather disreputable place with a lot of social problems, which will probably get much worse as fuel prices increase and everyone who can flees the place for places where you can at least get a train into town and don’t have to drive 5 miles for absolutely anything. Aurora is one of the many outer suburbs that will not survive the fuel descent and is probably destined to be leveled for farmland down the road as unspoiled, unbuilt- on farmland still remaining becomes stratospherically expensive.
    I lately have been traveling to some of Chicago’s more distant suburbs by our METRA commuter trains here, in order to visit a friend out there, and I notice an interesting and hopeful development, which is that “sprawl burbs” like Arlington Heights and Palatine, and older, denser places like Des Plaines, are developing dense, walkable neighborhoods around the METRA rail stops, without exactly intending to. The last time I had occasion to travel to Arlington Heights, it was a typical outer auto suburb of SF subdivisions, with almost nothing close to the rail stop, but now it and Palatine look like small cities. This trend toward cozy, dense “downtown” areas clustered around commuter rail stops looks like it might save places like Palatine, which was deteriorating rapidly before the boom and had disproportionately high crime rates. Now, it appears as though the downtown area adjacent to the rail stop, which now is very attractive with a lot of new, mixed use 5 and 6 story condo and apartment buildings, is the prime neighborhood, while the town’s outer neighborhoods of SF subdivisions and old “garden” apartment complexes, continues to deteriorate.
    This development was accidental, probably driven by the high prices of the housing bubble that priced many middle income people out of SF houses and steered them into condos. But since the bubble has burst, these attractive new “downtown” areas, which have all the necessities such as groceries, dry cleaners, basic retail, eateries and entertainment within a few blocks of the METRA stop, have held their value much better than SF houses in their “outer” neighborhoods, which are losing value much faster than either neighborhoods in either Chicago, or their own new urban cores. This is happening because people simply can no longer support 75-mile-each-direction car commutes and 3-and4-car households, even with cheap gasoline and easy credit. Mind you, the process is only beginning and most people in those parts are still excessively dependent upon their cars and do most of their shopping at the big regional malls and big box stores, but at least some places are providing a pleasant and workable alternative to being stranded with no fuel and no access to the necessities in an over-sized house.

  266. mow April 5, 2011 at 9:23 am #

    will the next presidential library help or hurt the kenyan economy ?

  267. Laura Louzader April 5, 2011 at 9:33 am #

    When you hear that we have 100 years worth of natural gas, or 200 years’ worth of coal, consider how numbers like these were arrived at. If you look closely, you can see how blatantly false these numbers are.
    For one thing, these are estimates and include highly theoretical “reserves” that cannot now be tapped by any technology now known, and that the estimates quoted are the most optimistic numbers and assume that we’ll be able to extract every last drop, which of course we wouldn’t be able to do even if we had the technology available.
    Most of all, the numbers assume CURRENT RATES OF USE. Use the famous rule of 72 to figure just how quickly a 100 year supply will deplete if we increase consumption just 5 percent a year. It suddenly becomes a 14 year supply.

  268. ozone April 5, 2011 at 9:43 am #

    “I’m also trying to aggregate links to useful resources such as ways to locate and join your local community-supported agriculture (CSA) farm. To the rest of CFN, please chime in over there if there’s useful resources I’m missing that I should be linking to.” -Anthony
    Here’s an important one from an actual CFN peeker and poster.
    Tripp is walking the walk down the energy descent road in a pragmatic, realistic, and scientific manner. Read the articles and you’ll see exactly what I mean…
    Thanks for making a collection. This is a necessary and useful thing…

  269. Buck Stud April 5, 2011 at 10:00 am #

    Who said anything about elevators? Think billions and trillions of bionic knees and hips…transplanted hearts that can pump major rivers up the slopes of major mountain ranges…quit thinking negative!

  270. USA April 5, 2011 at 10:00 am #

    “No, it should be cheap because, homes are abundant, there millions empty, building them is just a political choice…”
    Hey, Moron. Go invest your hard earned money in some apartments. And then rent them out cheaply.

  271. lbendet April 5, 2011 at 10:03 am #

    Yes, Laura (good to see your name again)
    None of the numbers we are given are messaged in such a way that they simply are used to prove out a false claim that suits those who use them.
    Like GDP, Deficit #’s Unemployment #’s etc.
    I believe these numbers are used to buy time, so the status quo doesn’t get challenged. The day will come when it will all be seen as an illusion but by then, money will be so concentrated into so few hands (or individuals who do nothing for society) that it will be too late to do anything of consequence.
    I like your earlier post about smaller centers forming out of necessity.

  272. USA April 5, 2011 at 10:04 am #

    “Does anybody know, though, when it is going to start warming up for real, and not just in theory? ”
    I do. Any day now. Its called Spring and its here. And after that comes Summer which is even warmer than Spring.

  273. ozone April 5, 2011 at 10:13 am #

    Are you quite sure you’re not putting the cart before the horse with the immigration issue?
    Here’s an idea to chew on, from a perspective standpoint…
    Do some of us feel that the “political will” and direction of the country is being controlled and manipulated by corporate powers?
    (The answer of course is: absolutely.)
    So, where do you think those entities come down on the whole “cheap immigrant labor” deal?
    The fairly obvious conclusion is: Nothing concerning [cheap, imported] labor is going to change until you get rid of those that exploit it for their own greed.
    …And that is the “immigrant issue” in a nutshell.
    Pick your targets. It’s not the border-hoppers (legal or otherwise); it’s those that employ them.
    Another viewpoint might conclude that it’s kind of irrelevant when industrial “civilization” collapses due to the lack of black goo to run it on. Everything stops, and there’s no place for labor (imported or otherwise) to go, and a DESPERATE amount of competition for those few remaining “employers” [of whatever stripe]. Do you think any “native local” is going to stand for being muscled out of that slot? That’s when the xenophobia hits like a sledge and folks start getting killed (worldwide, no less).
    I kinda see the issue as becoming more diluted and closer to moot, as time goes on.

  274. ozone April 5, 2011 at 10:15 am #

    Okay, back to reading. You guys are much too prolific! Whew…

  275. insufferable April 5, 2011 at 10:20 am #

    You are SO right! Everything else pales in comparison to the problem we have with Nuclear.

  276. insufferable April 5, 2011 at 10:25 am #

    So right!. With nuclear waste and god knows what type, being thrown into the pacific ocean, and then the air and food.. No one is telling us the truth about the amount of radiation being blown onto our nation, we are in DEEP trouble. Of course, there is nothing they can do about it either. But maybe a warning to stay indoors for a while or not eat certain food would be helpful. So much for the politicians and nuclear regulatory people. They are killers, just like the terrorists. Except they hide behind their “american” country first rule whereas the terrorists are saying what they intend to do outright. OMG

  277. orionoir April 5, 2011 at 10:26 am #

    {Does anybody know, though, when it is going to start warming up for real, and not just in theory?}
    beyond the inevitable advent of spring and summer, i believe the question of when will global climate change present itself unambiguously to the lay observer (and even fox news-watcher) is worth asking.
    and i know the answer. on july 21st, 2011, the temperature as measured at bradley international airport (windsor locks, ct, usa) will be 127 degrees fahrenheit (53 celsius.) all departures will be canceled because of melting tires, although arrivals will continue because these planes’ tires will be sufficiently cooled by upper altitude airflow to withstand tarmac heat stress.

  278. USA April 5, 2011 at 10:27 am #

    I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, the suburbs will be retrofitted. The reason is simple the burbs make up roughly half of the U.S. population. The cost in resources to herd this number into newly designed utopian cities is unimaginable. For that reason the burbs will have to do.
    What will come to pass is that in the not too distant future, every forth cul-de-sac will house a small general store that is walkable from the surrounding areas on each side. Large schools that are dependent on bus fleets, will be replaced by smaller neighborhood schools to which kids actually walk. Ditto businesses, which will be rescaled from necessity and data shared via cloud computing. Those that absolutely have to have worker bees on site will have to send company busses to neighborhoods to retrieve them.
    Back yards which principally grow grass, will be converted to gardens. An average back yard can easily grow enough produce to handle most family-of-four’s needs during the growing season. Johnny and Janie will learn to till a row of beans or the little bastards don’t eat.
    Bicycles make a big comeback for those physically capable and the precious resources are saved for transporting those who have health/age issues.
    Back yard fences will replace Facebook as those paying the utility bills inform the young-uns that all that silly ass, social networking shit is over. And not only that, missy, but while you are gabbing at the fence with Betty Lou, you might want to bend down in the spinach and remove a few weeds.
    Now quit bitching and get to work.

  279. orionoir April 5, 2011 at 10:29 am #

    {xenophobia hits like a sledge and folks start getting killed}
    o3, i knew xenophobia. i worked with xenophobia. xenophobia was a friend of mine. let me tell you, you’re no xenophobia.

  280. insufferable April 5, 2011 at 10:31 am #

    You couldn’t have said it any better. Oil shortage seems like a joke compared to the poisoning of all the oceans and air and food. We are in BIG trouble.

  281. Cash April 5, 2011 at 10:32 am #

    YOUR GREAT GREAT GREAT WHITE GRANDPARENTS WERE LAZY… that’s right…. they were too LAZY to do any actual work – Suburban
    That statement is almost too absurd for comment. What are you going to tell me next? Jews are cheap and mean? Blacks are shiftless and stupid?
    White People (WASPS) are LAZY.. – Suburban
    I don’t know what circles you travel in but I know and have worked with a multitude of WASPs. They are not lazy.
    I’d like to see you and your tribe of WHITE PEOPLE get along without any oil AND without anyone brown or black to do your work for you…. Suburban
    This is claptrap.

  282. ozone April 5, 2011 at 10:37 am #

    “Everything has been reduced to the lowest common denominator, a culture designed to make the retarded feel normal, and the intelligent seek the warm embrace of anti-depressants.” -S.B.
    I hear ya. Shocking, ain’t it?
    Get with like-minded folk (yes, they’re out there and close by), and say buh-bye to the rest of the yeast-people. You’ll become your own savior. Don’t wait around for buffoons to change into sages; you’ll wait yourself into an early grave (or easy pickings for the crows).
    Have your say, openly, and VOILA!, your fellows will appear. (I’m meaning, publicly and in your town, not on the intertubes where “it don’t count”.) If none of your friends hearkens to your call of, “let’s get busy”, you’ll need to make a new set of friends, eh? ;o)

  283. ozone April 5, 2011 at 11:01 am #

    “I’ve been freezing my ass off here in CT for the past 7 months, since October, but I’m on board now a little with all the global warming bullshit. Does anybody know, though, when it is going to start warming up for real, and not just in theory? Because I could use some warm weather pretty soon. And its already April.” -Marlin
    I can relate!
    I’m sure you already know that the warming of the planet has many wowee-type side effects. I’ve been paying attention to one simple factor, since around 2003. That would be the SIZE of each storm that roars through, and the number of those “big ones”. Seems to me the frequency of large storms is increasing; huge weather patterns that look like land-based him-icanes.
    So, not necessarily “warmer” in some places; just significantly WEIRDER. ;o)
    …And then some Jamoke comes along and tells us that we’ve let loose the arctic air from its’ imprisonment [via arctic warming], and that it’s definitely not a good thing.
    Link me, somebody, link me! ;o)

  284. bossier22 April 5, 2011 at 11:04 am #

    turk i,m sure that some of the things you post on this blog would get your ass kicked if you said them in the real world to a nonsympathetic listener. but thats what civilization is about is getting along. i bet most on this blog could meet in person, have a great debate, not say fucktard once and probably surprised what we have in common. this blog is a venting spot,but most must be attracted to something about jhk’s ideas. the ugliness maybe is a sign of our times.

  285. ozone April 5, 2011 at 11:07 am #

    …and I’ll second that cease and desist plea in regard to the magically-reappearing-resources guy.
    …At the very LEAST, to keep the blather to a tighter framework. My index finger is becoming disproportionately large from the scrolling! ;o)

  286. USA April 5, 2011 at 11:11 am #

    ” i bet most on this blog could meet in person, have a great debate, not say fucktard once…”
    There is no way, that after meeting turkey-lurkey, that I could NOT refer to her as a FUCKTARD.

  287. greyghost05 April 5, 2011 at 11:12 am #

    Nate, you should see the roads here in SE MIchigan. One road in particular M-151 looks like it was hit with an air strike. This was once a beautiful concrete highway. Now the frost / potholes look like wide & deep little trenches going across the road. And when Monroe County gets around to “filling in the holes” they use what looks like Quick Patch. No hot tar to bind it nor a roller to press & smooth it out. Nope when they’re done it looks like 13 miles of speed bumps for your Happy Motoring ! I find it disgraceful.

  288. ozone April 5, 2011 at 11:14 am #

    …that would be dandy by me! ;o)

  289. greyghost05 April 5, 2011 at 11:25 am #

    IDEA’s ?
    Start a farmers market for people to buy, sell, trade home grown goods and set up an exchange board for swaping goods and services. One great service would be to actually go out in Teams and help show families how to get started growing and preserving food stuffs for the long road ahead. Get to work on developing that sense of Community that made rural America the bellwhether of self sufficiency.
    It needs to happen this planting season. Get off the couch and see what you can do.

  290. okbread April 5, 2011 at 11:38 am #

    Yes, the nuclear situation is messy and threatening. As are our SUV`s, leaf blowers and wars.
    George Monbiot is a British writer who is fearless in countering climate change deniers and lucid, in his book “HEAT”, on the path that takes us to a real reduction in our output of crap into the air using technologies that actually exist.
    This week he has changed his view of the threat of
    the nuclear industry. His website has a very interesting exchange with Dr. Helen Caldicott

  291. wagelaborer April 5, 2011 at 12:39 pm #

    You got that right, Ozone.
    The other day, I was talking to a friend of mine about having a 9-11 truth event this year, since a decade has passed, and TPTB are STILL using it to attack other countries.
    An Army recruiter standing behind me heard me, and, much to my surprise, said that he would be interested in coming to the event, because he was starting to doubt that which he has been told.
    Wow! I never would have guessed.
    So you’re right, say it loud and proud. You’d be surprised who will listen and come around.

  292. Stelios April 5, 2011 at 12:44 pm #

    Great post Jim…
    As I’ve already posted here (and elsewhere before) the whole “car as primary mode of transport” doesn’t make sense, especially in suburban. Here I am on my old steel bike watching our Melbourne roads resemble monster truck madness outtakes while I struggle to breath the foul stench belching from the fire breathing bellies of these countless behemoths, all accelerating to the next stop without apparently realising the futility of it all.
    Yes I guess these giant things have a purpose: To go 100km/hr (~60mph) down the highway with four or more passengers and a load to boot. The reality however is that they are mostly hauling a single occupant in traffic queues averaging 25km an hour (if they’re lucky). This makes as much sense as taking a bath in a swimming pool. 2000 kilograms for an 80kg occupant(!) and 200kW+ of power for what can be reasonably managed with much less than one twentieth of that. It seems the time will be coming sooner than later when more than just the whacko minority like types who frequent this site will ask “what the hell were they thinking”… Unfortunately that will probably be when its far too late and the petrol party is well and truly over and all that is left is the dirty mess to “clean up”.
    Keep up the great work.

  293. Cavepainter April 5, 2011 at 12:53 pm #

    Wait a minute! Doesn’t the fact that indeterminate millions of foreign nationals have chosen to violate our immigration laws argue the point that in doing so they have advantaged themselves over their fellow nationals who haven’t done so? Why is it then that so many US citizens feel the US taxpayers yet owe illegal aliens more – amnesty specifically?
    Doesn’t too this argument speak to the patience and decency of the US citizenry? So far the US citizenry have not risen up in tumultuous outrage at such flagrant disregard of our standing laws. Hard to understand considering that those laws were crafted and enacted by our democratically elected representatives, oath bound to serve our will as the nation’s sovereign citizenry body. As played out – especially if amnesty is enacted – our laws are defaulting to the will of these invading foreign nationals; and, exasperatingly, on excuse that weight of their numbers is too great to counter with enforcement. If such becomes the case then amnesty is misnomer; in actuality it amounts to surrender.
    This deluge of illegal immigration has undercut the wage floor for our own domestic work force, weakening its bargaining strength for sustaining a job market paying livable (middle class) wages. Entry level job avenues have been choked off to our inexperienced young people and the many others within our citizen body who for different reasons need the entry job “boot strap”. “Casual labor” of Third World origin has displaced market impetus for apprenticeship programs, preempting preparation of the next generation of truly craft qualified. Home remodel and repair industry has become glutted by non tax-paying “casual labor” workers plying sub-standard Third World practices. The consumer public has suffered the inconvenience and added cost of sub-standard performance by Third World workforce. Our national infrastructure — social and physical — has been overburdened, resulting in underserved citizenry. Environment/ecological cost will reverberate for generations.
    Not the least of importance; government budget planning is getting further skewed off kilter, hobbling our nation’s ability to sustain a balanced spread of governmental funding toward meeting the full spectrum of societal demands and needs.
    Possibly worst of all though, the 2010 census made no distinction in its count, numbering illegal aliens on equal basis with citizens and those here with legal documentation. In effect, foreign nationals illegally in our country are given equivalency in determining apportionment of government and tax funded project disbursement. Consequently, national destiny as exclusive privilege of citizenship is being swept aside.
    National policy of ages past, now judged as errant against current vogue of PC, is the bulwark of arguments for amnesty. Implicit is accusation that our citizenry of past generations have always been fully complicit to policies that wrought harm upon other nations. A less condescending examination of the past though illuminates the fact that more often than not the US citizenry itself was victimized by calculated misinformation promulgated by special interests for private gain.
    Left out of this “moral” accounting is how the US citizenry have managed to preserve its democratic republic, repeatedly correcting course back to align with democratic principle.
    Sidestepped altogether by polemical reading of history is the high cost incurred by the US citizenry throughout, the greatest being that of loved ones spent as cannon fodder.
    Good on those who’ve internalized as personal guilt what they feel to be the wrongs committed by our national past and on which account feel need to follow some path of personal atonement. Damn those though who arrogate themselves to role of “Inquisitor” on the soul of our nation, superciliously demanding that policy making going forward be framed as ritualized atonement for perceived “transgressions” of the past rather than as pragmatic planning for real world circumstance emerging.
    No doubt, the 20th Century was the American century. No surprise then that as the most powerful and wealthiest nation in all of history our wake has delivered harm along its path as well as benefit. Had the national make-up been different racially, ethnically, religiously, — or by any other trait of characteristic — would our trace across history been that much different?
    A “yes” answer underscores the simplistic theme of “America the Damned” (too white, too European, too Christian, ect., ect.). Continuing that moral hyperbole (the world’s woes product of US “evil doing” alone) leads to equally simplistic notion that “grace” can be achieved only by the single act of dissolving US sovereignty. In essence, a “state of perdition”, presumably served until a state of “contrition” is reached whereby we’ve “equalized” to global standards of overpopulation, environment degradation and standard of living measured by minimum caloric requirement.

  294. theroachman April 5, 2011 at 1:04 pm #

    That’s reads like teabagger hog wash. Where is the mention of corporate complicity in this debate on immigration? Immigrants especially those in the food industry are treated no better then indentured servants of the 1600 and 1700 propping up the US with cheap labor. I say get your ass of your fucking computer and go out and replace a Mexican in the fields. No need for new cheap labor if you take the step of doing it your self.
    But then again I think that rant of yours is not yours at all. Reads like Ran Paul vomit.

  295. jackieblue2u April 5, 2011 at 1:08 pm #

    Yes it has me down also. I am older than you. Have seen the same changes only more of them.
    It is sickening. No common sense.
    Don Henley sing ‘GIMME WHAT YOU GOT’. “The first word Baby learns is MORE.” he’s from the Eagles.
    Anyway, I feel same as you always have felt I didn’t belong here in the USA. Moreso now. Stuck, Dear in Headlights.
    It feels to me like we are in freefall now.
    in a few years things will be much worse.
    and impossible for most others to be in denial, but then too late.
    Like E. says enjoy now. Especially if you have to stay here.

  296. turkle April 5, 2011 at 1:15 pm #

    roach, are you implying that America needs millions of undocumented immigrants simply to tend the fields? This need could easily be met by issuing seasonal permits to the number of farm workers required. Imagine if there were no illegals. The ones who came in through legal channels such as this would have more rights and would make more money. Additionally, there is a large amount of slack in the US labor market. If positions could not be filled by people here legally, then more legals could be brought in to for the jobs. The illegal labor market is certainly not a requirement for America to function. It has become a defacto way of doing business, because many like the access to very cheap labor.
    Have you actually made a comparison between indentured servants of the 1600 and 1700’s and today’s immigrants? The former typically paid all or most of their wages to pay off their debts and lived in squalor. I don’t think it compares to having a nice cash wad in your pocket from under the table wages, a flat screen tv, and free medical care at the emergency room.

  297. turkle April 5, 2011 at 1:18 pm #

    “All we have to do is build beautiful, walkable towns, trade our cars in for trains and trolleys, grow food and conduct business locally, throw our televisions and cell-phones in the trash, and reconnect with notions of hard-work, self-respect, craftsmanship, and meaningful social interaction.”
    I’d like a hot tub while you’re at it.

  298. turkle April 5, 2011 at 1:20 pm #

    All we need to do is go back to how America was in 1910….with three times the population. What could possibly go wrong?

  299. jackieblue2u April 5, 2011 at 1:28 pm #

    I don’t have time to read thru slowly but I get the gist of your post.
    I, for one, actually like the way you think.
    Naively I thought a house was supposed to be a HOME.
    How wrong I was. Housing is for profit. Big business. This is the way it is set up.
    For the owners to profit from the renters.
    I find that wrong. I AM naive.
    If I was a younger person these days I would be so upset about life, and the way our society is.
    anyway gotta get going. run some errands.
    🙂 that’s a smile

  300. turkle April 5, 2011 at 1:30 pm #

    Are you kidding me? The US gov has been the most manipulative and destructive force on this planet in the post-WWII era (with some competition from the Soviets) curtesy of the DOD and the CIA. Nearly every major country in South America underwent a US-supported military coup. We are the primary arms dealers to the entire world. Our financial system wrecks others countries for fun and profit. For starters…
    And then there were the wars…Vietnam, Korea, Iraq, and Afghanistan, plus all the proxy ones. Ring any bells?
    Get your head out of your azz, man. Go get a copy of “Killing Hope” by Blum or “Anglo American Oil Politics” or “Resource Wars” or any of about 200 books that argue the same. Yours is just another rehashing of the idea that Americans are blameless, exception angels in a world of dark skinned savages. Wake the f*** up.
    If we’re getting some of our own medicine back in our faces (blowback anyone?), as they say, karma is a beotch.

  301. MarlinFive54 April 5, 2011 at 1:32 pm #

    Crude is at $108 per barrel right now, but it hardly merits a mention on the cable news shows, not even on Bloomberg or CNBC.
    The fighting in Libya and the meltdown in Japan are almost (not quite) forgotten, too. Instead, on CNBC anyway, guest after guest keep talking about the ‘recovery’ that we are now in. They have all the stats to back them up, stuff that’s hard to understand for the non-economist. These business networks are perpetual optimists, never a discouraging word. For supposed hard-core business people this seems to be an unrealistic, pollyannish view of the world.
    On the other hand auto traffic ’round here hasn’t seemed to let up at all. The roads and parking lots are still chock full everywhere. The state announced yesterday that they are going ahead with the new 9 mile, $1 billion ‘busway’ from New Britain to Hartford, two burned out cinders of cities which saw their best days 60 years ago. Whole neighborhoods have to be wrecked to build it. As far as I can tell, the only people using it will be those who travel from New Britain to Hartford to apply for welfare or pick up a welfare or AFDC check, or those travelling from Hartford to New Britain to score some coke, heroine, oxycondin, crystal meth or illegal weapons. I’m sure it will be a fun ride. You’d better learn Spanish.
    CFNation YD Post 1
    New England Chapter

  302. Nathan April 5, 2011 at 1:37 pm #

    Ditto Helen, even made friends with some posters here, and learned a few good things along the way.

  303. Nathan April 5, 2011 at 1:39 pm #

    You don’t sound like you have bought in to the whole mass transit plan.

  304. lbendet April 5, 2011 at 1:40 pm #

    Let ’em eat plutonium!
    listen to this one:

  305. Cash April 5, 2011 at 1:43 pm #

    This is a joke right?
    This business about an American Empire is grotesque. We ought to know better than to say such stuff. Why? Because at one time Canada was part of an Empire, the British Empire. We have direct experience with Empire, we know what it’s like. 1.6 million Canucks fought in two world wars in defence of the Mother Country and her Empire, more than 100,000 died, hundreds of thousands more were wounded. When She went to war Canada went to war. When I was in grade school we would hoist the Union Jack and Red Ensign and we would sing God Save the Queen. America is no empire.
    The reality is that Poland had an occupying army from the Soviet Union from 1939 to 1941 which inflicted horrendous suffering, deaths in the hundreds of thousands not to mention deportations numbering over a million. A large portion of pre-war Poland was claimed and carved out by the Soviet Union. After 1945, when the Germans were forcibly removed from Poland, the Polish Communist Party ran the place and when the Solidarity movement started to make trouble the Soviet Union massed troops along the border and threatened invasion.
    The further reality is that the Yanks have pretty much no idea we exist. In the 1980s we screamed for things like the free trade agreement when their foreign policy apparatus was preoccupied with the dissolution of the Soviet Empire (and which could easily have turned violent). And it was hard to get their attention. We hardly registered with Reagan, we never registered on Condi’s radar nor on Bill’s nor Hillary’s and as far as Obama is concerned he could hardly be bothered to get off the plane when he visited here.
    Let me submit a treasonous thought: the Yanks don’t give a damn about us or what we do.

  306. turkle April 5, 2011 at 1:48 pm #

    “America is no empire.”
    Over 700 military bases throughout the world and…not an empire?
    What are all those for then, protecting free-dumb?

  307. turkle April 5, 2011 at 1:51 pm #

    There are many different kinds of empires. It is falacitious to say that America is not or does not have an empire simply because it is different from the British one.

  308. turkle April 5, 2011 at 1:52 pm #

    Oh, but I care. I like your excellent skiing mountains and comfortable furry hats.

  309. MarlinFive54 April 5, 2011 at 1:53 pm #

    Snow melted off up there in VT yet?
    I’m on board with mass transit. We had a house in Spain, where my wife is from, just outside Bilbao. We took the train everywhere. There was a station just down the street and a train appeared every few minutes. They were clean, fast, efficient, safe, and ran until the wee hours. You could drink at one of the many cafes in Bilbao until 3 or 4 in the morning, stagger to the station, and catch the next train for Sadupe. No Problem. Fare was cheap, too.
    CFNation YD Post 1
    New England Chapter

  310. turkle April 5, 2011 at 1:56 pm #

    Have I mentioned how much I like you Marlin? Now, when am I coming to your Spanish villa? 😉

  311. turkle April 5, 2011 at 1:57 pm #

    American Empire…here we are.

  312. turkle April 5, 2011 at 1:58 pm #

    Or, ya know, read some Chalmers Johnson.

  313. Ixnei April 5, 2011 at 2:16 pm #

    “Since 1973…, our economy has tripled in size while our energy use has increased by only a third”
    There’s no *FSCKING* way we’ve increased energy consumption merely 33% in the last 40 years. It’s at least quadrupled since then (in the US, and EU).
    As to the economy – bah, it’s all “smoke and mirrors” for decades. I don’t even want to dive into that mess of printing presses and microsecond investments (70% of market trades).

  314. Cash April 5, 2011 at 2:19 pm #

    You’re an American aren’t you? So why don’t you tell me why you have 700 bases around the world?
    Once again, if the US were an empire, we would be the first place occupied. What do empires do? They conquer other people’s land. They kill, displace, dominate the occupants and move in and rip things off.
    What do we have here in Canada? Oodles of fertile land, giant energy deposits (oil, coal, uranium), fresh water, wide open spaces, everything any self respecting empire would grab.
    What don’t we have here in Canada? A functioning military. 60,000 underequipped troops, around 5,000 of which are rifle carrying infantry. This would be the most ludicrously easy conquest in history. Your biggest hazard would be slipping on the ice.
    So why do we not have an American military governor here in Canada? Why do we not have US troops swaggering on our streets kicking our asses? Why do we pay our taxes to Canadian treasuries and not American? Why do resource companies pay royalties to Canuck capitols and not American?
    The answer is because the US is not an empire. Not by any common sense definition of the word. Not even close. Canuck troops didn’t fight in Vietnam, nor in Iraq. We have 2,800 troops in Afghanistan. We lost 155 troops there in about 8 years. Contrast this to WW1 in fighting for the British Empire: we lost 66,000 in four years. In WW2 we lost 44,000. Add to that hundreds of thousands of wounded. That was when Canada had about ten million people. My home town has dozens of names on the town war memorial and it is a small place. THAT was the cost of empire.

  315. turkle April 5, 2011 at 2:21 pm #

    Ix, the energy statistic is widely quoted and (AFAIK) correct. Have you seen how huge and inefficient cars were back then, for one thing? Appliances, cars, et al. have gotten a lot more efficient since the 70’s.

  316. turkle April 5, 2011 at 2:29 pm #

    Of course the US is an empire, just more along economic/cultural/financial lines than physical ones. America intervenes using other methods and generally uses troops as a last resort. It was Cheney and the neo-con’s stated goal to dominate the globe militarily for the next 200 years, as well as to maintain American economic and financial dominance. He and his lil gang were the top-level thinkers in the Bush admin. Please see the PNAC report. Also, Bzig’s book “The Grand Chessboard” is a really good read.
    And sure, the US hasn’t occupied Canada (yet), but it is heavily involved in Iraq and Afghanistan, plus other ME countries like Israel and Egypt, which are halfway around the world.
    It turns out that directly occupying other countries militarily is very expensive and unpopular (with those countries), so that’s generally not the first line of attack. Military and economic aid packages are the primary form of intervention.
    Okay, Canada wasn’t in Nam. It is in Afghanistan though.
    So, sure, US is/has an empire. It is just very different from those of the colonial period, because that’s just not how things are done now, by anyone really.

  317. Ixnei April 5, 2011 at 2:30 pm #

    “the energy statistic is widely quoted and (AFAIK) correct. Have you seen how huge and inefficient cars were back then, for one thing? Appliances, cars, et al. have gotten a lot more efficient since the 70’s.”
    I’m fully aware of the 9MPG cars back then. I’m also fully aware of the *MEGLATUDES* of commercial/residential buildings that have been built/heated/cooled since.
    A mere 33% energy consumption increase in 40 years is total HORSE-SH!. Someone’s cooked those stats, if they really exist. The population about doubled in that time, and they’re still setting their thermostats *the same way* (plus, now they have many more appliances/computers/etc).
    Oh – millisecond investments – MY BAD!!!

  318. turkle April 5, 2011 at 2:30 pm #

    “So why don’t you tell me why you have 700 bases around the world?”
    Why to protect the empire of course! 😉
    That and line Haliburton and KBR’s pockets.

  319. Cash April 5, 2011 at 2:32 pm #

    You can read Chalmers Johnson. Or on the other hand you can think for yourself. Try believing the evidence of your own eyes.
    If you want to believe America is an empire for whatever reason go right ahead. It’s your country, you pay taxes there and you would know your fellow citizens better than me. Plus you’re entitled to your own opinion and you’re entitled to voice it. After all you are not Communists.

  320. montsegur April 5, 2011 at 2:33 pm #

    Turkle and Cash, as I read your comments, I see elements of truth in both positions.
    Yes, there has been blatant interference on the part of the U.S. in the politics of third-world countries, Latin America being a particularly vivid example.
    On the other hand. What took place in Europe from 1946 until 1989 was for the most part very much different.
    Some agencies/departments of the U.S. governments, because of exaggerated fears of communism, were too lenient on Nazi officials who should have been arrested and tried at Nuremberg. Fear drives stupid decisions, and the U.S. was no exception to this after the Second World War.
    There were bright spots, though, that eventually became much more meaningful — such as the Marshall Plan. It was not so much the money in the plan that was important; it was that the plan was a display of confidence by the U.S. — which was followed by the investments of the western Europeans themselves to bring their national economies into something like functional status again.
    Was the U.S. the dominant force in western Europe during the Cold War? Yes. Was this overt imperialism? Hardly. The Europeans, as nations, were glad of the presence of the Americans, because it allowed them to develop more productive (and profitable) economic pursuits. Meanwhile, our economy grew more and more dysfunctional as more resources went to guns than butter.
    The U.S. was upset when De Gaulle told us to get out — but hardly imperial enough to seriously contest his decision. The Germans did not dare do the same — for they were only too aware of the threat posed by the Soviet troops in the DDR.
    The U.S. did much good in western Europe. It is indeed sad that our approach to the third world has been so different, with results ranging from the profoundly negative to the indifferent. The one exception that stand out is that of the Republic of Korea.

  321. Ixnei April 5, 2011 at 2:34 pm #

    I’m thinking the 33% energy consumption increase over the past 40 years is a *GLOBAL* statistic, that subtracts out the past 10 years of China…

  322. turkle April 5, 2011 at 2:38 pm #

    Ix, most everything has become more efficient since the 70’s: lights, refrigerators (huge energy wasters if inefficient), televisions, cars, housing (better insulation/construction), hot water heaters, etc.
    In some cases, notably appliances like refrigerators, the efficiency gains have been enormous, like 3-4x.
    Look at the example of cars you use. If 10 people each have a 10 mpg car, that’s the same as 20 people each having a 20 mpg car. (Did I do that math right?)
    Efficieny improvements really are the bee’s knees.

  323. turkle April 5, 2011 at 2:43 pm #

    Not an empire in Europe, eh?
    Take a look see here pls. There most certainly was a large effort to dominate Europe politically to make sure they didn’t go commie.
    I never said the US didn’t do any “good” in the post-WWII era either. Eastern European countries would have loved to be under Uncle Sam’s thumb as opposed to the Soviets.
    The most egregious example of US monkeying around was in Chile, which was appalling. We deposed a democratically elected government and installed a military junta that systematically starting “disappearing” its own citizens.
    Kind of like we did with the Shah in Iran, which is one of the reasons they now hate us so.
    Yeah, go down the rabbit hole, take the red pill, etc. You’ll discover some rather unpleasant facts about America’s fun and games.

  324. Ixnei April 5, 2011 at 2:45 pm #

    (US*) In the 70’s, there were ~50,000,000 cars getting 10MPG, that were driven an average of 5,000 miles per year.
    Now, there are 200,000,000 cars getting 20MPG, that are driven an average of 10,000 miles per year. That alone is 300% increase, not 33%.
    We can get into how many more McMansions have been built, but we’re arguing a moot point – *I THINK*.

  325. turkle April 5, 2011 at 2:46 pm #

    Ix, if you break it down in the US between 75 and now…
    Petroleum use is roughly the same.
    Nat gas use is roughly the same.
    Nuclear energy is up.
    Coal is up.
    Renewables are (slightly) up.
    Well, I’m looking at a chart that goes to 2000. Could be a bit different now.

  326. turkle April 5, 2011 at 2:48 pm #

    This is a good place for some US energy stats.
    See Figs 2 & 6.

  327. Ixnei April 5, 2011 at 3:01 pm #

    “Well, I’m looking at a chart that goes to 2000. Could be a bit different now.”

  328. Ixnei April 5, 2011 at 3:06 pm #

    LOL @ “wall of poast”!!!
    “I’m getting tired of being called racist, or worse, by asoka, ixnei, mila51, surburbanempire, and turkle for saying that the US is ALREADY overpopulated and that immigration has to stop.”
    Did you read my reply last week? Maybe? It was about the clear relationship between racists and anti-immigrants. When exactly did *YOU* immigrate?
    That’s what I *THOUGHT*.

  329. Cash April 5, 2011 at 3:06 pm #

    Yeah I’ve heard that argument too. But you are stretching the definition of empire. No doubt you have influence, but give yourself some credit, sometimes American arguments and views actually make sense.
    But let’s not go too far, most of the world’s societies are a whole lot older than the US and their ways and cultures have deep roots. Your influence goes only so far.
    You think we’re under your boot? Is this why we sell you stuff? So why do we sell our stuff to you guys? Because we want to is why, we make money and live well off trade with the US. Why do we drink Coke? Because we like it.
    IMO you are confusing the coercive power of empire with the persuasion of so called “soft power”. And sometimes other people’s national interests coincide with yours. So you think you’re ordering the world around? No, sometimes we go along with you because it’s in our own national interest. But sometimes we don’t.
    A lot of what Americans brought to the world was adopted because people wanted it. They look at the American way of life, American culture and music and they like it. Or at least some of it. What does an Afghan want? Does he want to die for Allah? Maybe but if he had his druthers he’d take a refrigerator. The American Dream, a house and a car. The Chinese see what you have and they want it. Would a Chinese peasant rather own a donkey cart or a Buick? Does this constitute “empire”?
    I don’t want to sound insulting but man oh man you have too high an opinion of your power in places like the Middle East. Do you seriously think anybody’s paying attention to Hillary or Obama or any of their predecessors? If I was a betting man I’d bet the Israelis can hardly keep a straight face dealing with your diplomats. They look forward to American diplomatic visits because it’s a chance to do some fine dining and boozing. I’ll bet the Palestinians laugh in their beards when they hear about the “peace process”. But when your emissaries leave it’s back to the business of assassinations. If your power was what you think it is peace would have been imposed a long, long time ago and guys like Ahmedinejad would be sleeping peacefully in their graves.
    Military and aid packages? How come we aren’t getting any? I’m pissed.

  330. montsegur April 5, 2011 at 3:09 pm #

    Turkle, some comments.
    “Gladio” — as much a creation of the intelligence / security agencies of the European governments as something supported by the U.S. For those who want a summary (from Wikipedia):

    Operation Gladio (Italian: Organizzazione Gladio) is the codename for a clandestine NATO “stay-behind” operation in Italy after World War II. Its purpose was to continue anti-communist actions in the event of a Warsaw Pact invasion of Western Europe.

    If you think that Gladio was strictly a U.S. operation, I think you’re quite wrong about that. The only areas in which the CIA has been effective is those where there were powerful locals who were only too happy to use the assistance/meddling for their own ends. So one has to decide where “imperialism” and good old national power politics blend into one another. As Cash has repeatedly pointed out, blaming it all on the U.S. is fatuous. The CIA had plenty of help from locals.
    You’re damned right the western powers intended there be a resistance movement to any communist takeover in western Europe that might have happened. The western Allies had gotten enamored of such concepts after the occasional successes of resistance movements in countries occupied by the Nazis during the Second World War.
    On a much more personal level, I’ve had more than a couple of meaningful conversations with Europeans, both eastern and western, from different walks of life about the presence of the U.S. in Europe.
    I think the one that touched me most deeply was the old Pole who, as a POW, had been a forced laborer at the “Dora” underground V-2 rocket site in eastern Germany. When he learned I was an American, he got this kind of distant look in his eyes, and said: “Ah, an American. I remember when your army liberated us.”
    You see, I’ve had too many conversations that went along those lines. The people weren’t politely bullshitting me, either. They had lived in dark times and made it through — in many ways, I think they were beyond simple bullshitting anymore. For them, for any faults the Americans may have had, the U.S. had made a profound and positive difference in their lives.
    But these are my experiences. From my standpoint, it was not all empire and it was not all bad. And that is the point of my ramblings here — it is easy to focus solely on the negative aspects. To achieve an accurate view, however, we should be willing to view both the bad and the good.

  331. Cavepainter April 5, 2011 at 3:17 pm #

    All kidding aside, I’m not appealing for US “absolution of sins” — regularly recited as you just have, and with justification, I’ll add.
    My argument is that dissolving the US as a sovereign nation – ending its entitlement to democratic rule by its citizen — will not (cannot) rectify the globe’s current problems.
    Proposals to that effect are abstractions divorced from the reality that no matter how heinous are perceived much of our nation’s past it is aggrandized illusion about our respective power to believe our nation alone can account for the current state of the world.
    Aggrandized illusion opposite is that we have national power to achieve the opposite, simply in a symbolic gesture of atonement involving surrendering sovereignty. Get over it, that kind of “last judgment” scenario will only disable us from avoiding here the disastrous social and environmental conditions in other parts of the world.

  332. Cash April 5, 2011 at 3:23 pm #

    The one exception that stand out is that of the Republic of Korea. – Mont
    Maybe you woudn’t put Japan in the category of the Third World. But I think American influence and military presence there paid huge dividends. Without this Japan might have remilitarized the way Germany did during the 1930s. Japan’s economy has been a mess for twenty years but the post war outcome could’ve been a lot worse.

  333. montsegur April 5, 2011 at 3:25 pm #

    Cavepainter: My argument is that dissolving the US as a sovereign nation – ending its entitlement to democratic rule by its citizen — will not (cannot) rectify the globe’s current problems.

    I agree, even if I’m not convinced the U.S. will survive as a (single) sovereign nation in the near term. Any group in the world is capable of making themselves miserable with or without external influence/meddling/etc.

  334. Cash April 5, 2011 at 3:25 pm #

    … it is aggrandized illusion about our respective power to believe our nation alone can account for the current state of the world. – Cave
    My sentiments precisely.

  335. cunning runt April 5, 2011 at 3:30 pm #

    Cash –
    Get a job. Or volunteer. Take up a hobby. You’re retired and you keep blathering on about the same old shit here week after week, month after month. Or maybe work up some new material. Or go watch some reruns of “Talking with Americans”.

  336. Cavepainter April 5, 2011 at 3:35 pm #

    Ah,….that works nicely; labeling me as a “tea bagger” dismisses obligation upon you to counter with reasoned argument. So much for substantive political debate in America.

  337. montsegur April 5, 2011 at 3:36 pm #

    Cash, re: Japan. No doubt their neighbors in Asia still have issues with them, but yes, I think they’ve been a success story in a variety of ways. My comment was more about U.S. involvement in the third world.

  338. Ixnei April 5, 2011 at 3:44 pm #

    “Japan…they’ve been a success story in a variety of ways.”
    Chernobyl-style, *TO BE SURE*! We’ll be celebrating their *FAILURE* for millenia!!!

  339. LewisLucanBooks April 5, 2011 at 3:54 pm #

    Here’s an interesting little snapshot of our area in 1913. It was in our local newspaper, the Chronicle, on today’s editorial page. The article was by Julie McDonald and described a brochure she had run across.
    To set the scene, Chehalis is about half way between Seattle and Portland, in Western Washington state. It’s on the railway line. Centralia, where I live is right next door. Now a ten minute trip by car. Back then, there was a trolly line between the two towns. Cheahlis in 1913 had 6,500 people.
    There were 3 coal mines. 4 billiard halls, 8 restaurants, 4 drug stores, 2 bookstores, 8 real estate & insurance firms, 3 dry goods stores, 2 jewelry stores, 2 department stores, 3 hardware stores with furniture, 3 harness and saddler shops, 4 second hand stores,3 notions stores, 3 photographers, 10 grocery stores, 11 saloons, 3 bakers, 5 milliners, 6 confectionery, fruits & cigar stores, gotta go, will continue later.

  340. montsegur April 5, 2011 at 3:54 pm #

    Ixnei: Chernobyl-style, *TO BE SURE*! We’ll be celebrating their *FAILURE* for millenia!!!

    Yes, helped by natural catastrophes of huge magnitude, to be sure.
    Does that reduce the failure of the Japanese to provide for such catastrophes? Of course not.
    But it also manifestly unfair to mention such things without also mentioning that it is on the basis of risk analysis that such ventures are made.
    And I can assure you that the risk analysis of other countries has been no better in that regard. The day of the U.S. in terms of a nuclear plant catastrophe is coming, and I mean one that will be far worse than TMI. So we should not gloat over the agonies of the Japanese.

  341. Ixnei April 5, 2011 at 3:55 pm #

    Why do we even discuss these things here, anymore? We know it’s all coming down like the proverbial, “House of Cards.” Do we continue to *tune in*, hoping they can continue to *DELAY* the *INEVITABLE*?!?

  342. turkle April 5, 2011 at 3:58 pm #

    “Why do we even discuss these things here, anymore?”
    Well, why don’t you answer for yourself given that you’re here, too…

  343. montsegur April 5, 2011 at 3:59 pm #

    Ixnei: Do we continue to *tune in*, hoping they can continue to *DELAY* the *INEVITABLE*?!?

    Well, you know, once things have come to a certain point, they often seem to have been inevitable.
    Sometimes, we have gifted leaders who cause turns for the better.
    But, yes, I also wonder where anyone with better ideas may now be.

  344. Ixnei April 5, 2011 at 4:01 pm #

    “helped by natural catastrophes of huge magnitude”
    Huge catastrophes? Are you serious? The *BIG ONE* was well known, and supposed to hit about 20 years ago, in Japan. When my sister was in Japan, in ’95, I was constantly worried about the next mega-quake. It was *NOT* an accident – it was *WELL KNOWN* that the SH! WILL hit fan.

  345. turkle April 5, 2011 at 4:02 pm #

    Mont, do you really think the main problem is a surfeit of ideas? There seem to be plenty out there.

  346. Ixnei April 5, 2011 at 4:06 pm #

    Hoping *THEY* can continue to *delay* the *inevitable*… I’m spammin’ liek *TOOTSIE*!!! Sad daze ahead…

  347. montsegur April 5, 2011 at 4:10 pm #

    Ixnei: Huge catastrophes?

    Ixnei, yes, I am serious. Predicting a “big one” for Japan is quite different than specifying exactly where it will hit, with which magnitude, what sort of tsunami will result, etc.
    Industrial operations of any kind accept risk. How much risk is avoided boils down to a question of cost. The question of how much cost is accepted to mitigate a risk is driven by how often such risks occur — even with something as potentially disastrous as a nuclear plant catastrophe. That may sound absurd given what has happened in Japan; but if the quake had happened in such a way that no nuclear power plant was affected, then no one would be in the slightest bit concerned about the issue, either.
    Is there a lesson here? I think yes, and the lesson is, if people want the benefits provided by certain kinds of industrial activity, then the risks have to be accepted. If people don’t like the risks, then the activity should not be undertaken — but everyone should also realize there is another side to the coin, such as increased cost for electrical power, etc.
    For me personally, I could probably learn to live with a lot less electrical power. I’m not keen to be exposed to radioactivity any more than you are.

  348. montsegur April 5, 2011 at 4:14 pm #

    Turkle: Mont, do you really think the main problem is a surfeit of ideas? There seem to be plenty out there.

    Turkle, you’re right. My impression (however narrowed by the blinders I’ve acquired) is that few of the mainstream politicians have new ides, or at the least, desire to introduce them as a serious element in political discourse.
    There are plenty of good ideas IMO in this forum alone. But I think times will have to get much harder before they are seriously considered.

  349. BeantownBill April 5, 2011 at 4:14 pm #

    OK, so illegal immigration is undermining our country. What steps do you propose we take to deal with this issue?

  350. Ixnei April 5, 2011 at 4:16 pm #

    “OK, so illegal immigration is undermining our country. What steps do you propose we take to deal with this issue?”
    I suggest you paint your skin brown, and sit outside Home Depot waiting for $15/hr.

  351. BeantownBill April 5, 2011 at 4:35 pm #

    The issue here is risk vs. reward. What benefit is received by having a nuclear reactor? What are the costs, i.e., construction, maintenance, health and cleanup should the reactor be damaged or destroyed? We compare risk and reward, using probabilities. Then this analysis should be made public; let the people decide if they want to assume the risk. Then if or when something bad happens, the government can whip out the analysis and say, “We told you the risk and you decided to take it, it’s ultimately your responsibility. Now let’s get to work and straighten this mess out.”
    Maybe the Japanese government did make this analysis and made it public. I don’t know. But given that the plant is near the coastline in a major earthquake zone, it seems rather stupid to me that it was ever built.

  352. BeantownBill April 5, 2011 at 4:37 pm #

    Such sarcasm. So you think the problem is either unsolvable or really isn’t a problem at all? If not, then try to be more serious in your replies.

  353. turkle April 5, 2011 at 4:48 pm #

    Call me cynical but…
    Who else is tired of everyone’s if-I-were-the-dictator, 10-steps-to-perfect-utopia, everyone-needs-to-do-as-I-say, internet ramblings?
    I’m even sick of it when I do it myself.
    I guess it beats expending much physical energy to do anything that might actually matter.

  354. turkle April 5, 2011 at 4:51 pm #

    Ix, why do you use so many astericks? Is it to make up for the fact that there is no “shout” button or perhaps that this blog is plain old text without any bold or italic fonts?
    It doesn’t really add anything, FYI. I’d leave them out, but, hey, if it floats yer boat, keep on keeping on I guess.

  355. CaptSpaulding April 5, 2011 at 4:52 pm #

    It’s always easier to be the good guy when confronted with problems. You ideas on immigration for example are true, but not the politically correct thing to say, so you must be a racist. What people don’t seem to understand is that the world’s population is booming and they would ALL come here if they were able. I brought up the analogy of a house before. I could fit a few more people in my house, but at some point, I’d have to stop. Where should that point be? When I have 15 or 20 people crammed in my two bedroom house? The point is, no matter how many you take in, there are more waiting. It has to stop sometime. I would say that 11 million illegal Mexicans coming here is not illegal immigration, it’s an exodus. Big difference. When will it stop, when we’re as crowded as India? As long as we allow it, they will never stop. The US is just the blowoff valve for Mexico’s overpopulation problems. It may not be politically correct, but that’s the reality of it. I know, I know, dealing with reality sucks.

  356. turkle April 5, 2011 at 4:52 pm #

    Hi there.

  357. turkle April 5, 2011 at 4:53 pm #

    Oh, hey, wow….HTML tags work. Who woulda thunk.

  358. turkle April 5, 2011 at 4:54 pm #

    Hey, Ix, now when you want to emphasize something you can use HTML bold or italic tags. Neat eh?

  359. turkle April 5, 2011 at 4:58 pm #

    People migrating from more populated to less populated areas is like a natural law of physics. I don’t deal with rights and wrongs so much, but this type of movement is pretty much inevitable and has been throughout human history. So, no, I don’t think it can be easily stopped, especially since America is so rich and Mexico comparatively poor, which adds yet another whole level of pressure differential. At least, I don’t think it is easy to stop without implementing some rather draconian laws such as e-verify for all employees, very stiff fines or prison sentences for those hiring illegals, a massive number of INS/ICE agents, militarizing the border, etc. These would all pretty much be unprecedented actions for America (with a few exceptions from our past history).

  360. turkle April 5, 2011 at 5:04 pm #

    Well, Spaulding, I think you’re right about the exodus part. Mexico is a fairly sucky place to live in terms of poverty, lack of good government, corruption, climate, etc. US is pretty good in comparison.
    So, to my mind, maybe we should work on changing this disparity. We’re willing to sink at least 4 billion a month into a country halfway around the world (Iraq). Wouldn’t that money be better spent directly helping out Mexico, which shares a 1000+ mile border with us? Its internal politics and economics end up having a huge effect on us, probably more so than any other country. I believe the law enforcement aspect has its limits unless you want to have a totalitarian/fascist state here.
    I dunno, I just find the “We’re Americans. They’re not. Let them fry.” attitude to be kind of distasteful and short-sited, though in some way I understand it. Oftentimes empathy seems to stop at the national borders or it is confined to Americans, and I wonder why that is when so many people proclaim themselves as Christians who care about the plight of all mankind.

  361. turkle April 5, 2011 at 5:06 pm #

    Spauld, America does have a low population density compared with the rest of the world. Trying to keep it that way going forward is going to be, let’s say, a somewhat tricky business.

  362. BeantownBill April 5, 2011 at 5:10 pm #

    There you go. I guess you get the crackerjack prize.

  363. asoka April 5, 2011 at 5:19 pm #

    Re: Imminent Government Shutdown
    “troops would be paid only through April 15”
    So, if our troops are not paid, will they continue to fight? Are they patriotic “defenders of freedom” or are they looking for a government handout, tuition-paid-by-taxpayers college education, GI Bill, etc.?
    Will they continue to risk their lives if they are not rewarded with dollar payments? Patriots or mercenaries?
    We cannot afford to pay soldiers if the country is broke, as the Tea Party people say. Paying soldiers would only increase the debt.

  364. asoka April 5, 2011 at 5:27 pm #

    More importantly, if our troops are not paid, is the contract they signed to “serve” our country now null and void? Can they leave their units with impunity?
    Tea Party people say the USA has no money, so the USA has no money to pay troops, so the government defaults on it contract with the soldiers: the “stop loss” fine print becomes invalid.

  365. turkle April 5, 2011 at 5:41 pm #

    Oh, yes, I got a prize!

  366. Pepper Spray April 5, 2011 at 5:46 pm #

    Ouch! I guess the truth hurts but you can’t hide from the facts. I take it you are projecting a breakdown in social order as competition, even among citizens becomes tense.

  367. edpell April 5, 2011 at 5:46 pm #

    Houses are empty and will stay empty because people can not afford to pay the annual property taxes.

  368. Vlad Krandz April 5, 2011 at 5:48 pm #

    Telling lies is considered completely moral by Leftists as long as it furthers the Revolution. As are threats, theft, vandalism, and murder. Futhering the Revolution is their ONLY moral consideration. Therefore, nothing they say can be taken at face vaulue. Nothing. Everything fact they present has to be checked for distortion and outright falsehood. Thus no real dialogue is possible. In Truth, there is nothing to say. The coming battle will be determined by Strength.

  369. LewisLucanBooks April 5, 2011 at 5:49 pm #

    (Cont’d from 3:34 PM). 6 contracting carpenters and construction companies, 3 garages, 5 blacksmiths, 5 livery stables, 2 bicycle and automobile repair shops, 7 barber shops, 3 merchant tailors, 2 shoe stores, 4 meat markets. Also; 2 newspapers, 8 churches, 3 banks, 2 hospitals, 5 hotels, high school, 2 grade schools and the Holy Rosary Academy. Manufacturing: furniture plant, condensed milk plant, tank & silo, gun powder, 2 lumber mills, brick & tile works, bottling works, mattress factory, Ice plant, glove factory, feed mill, laundry, 2 foundry & machine shops, cooperative creamery and two marble works.
    Things not mentioned in the article I also thought of: library, city hall, county seat. Train station. Police and fire departments. By 1911 I think thee was the rudiments of telephone exchange, electrical system and water works.
    A microcosm. A little universe. A world made by hand. So, why so much in such a small town? Being on the main line of the railroad. Plus, there were all kinds of spur lines running up into the surrounding farming valleys. Saturdays, all the country folk came into town.
    As “the film runs backwards” on our civilization, it’s worth looking at these businesses and services to perhaps catch a glimpse of what may be of value to people in the future.

  370. turkle April 5, 2011 at 5:51 pm #

    It is kinda funny, Vlad, but in most of your posts, one could substitute “Right” for “Left,” and “conservative” instead of “liberal,” and it would read just fine. Could it be that the tactics are the same regardless of professed ideology?

  371. asoka April 5, 2011 at 5:51 pm #

    Vlad said: “The coming battle will be determined by Strength.”
    Hmmm… sounds like the natural physical superiority of Blacks might come in handy.

  372. turkle April 5, 2011 at 5:52 pm #

    Thanks, Lew. That’s mighty interesting stuff…

  373. turkle April 5, 2011 at 5:52 pm #

    Oh snap!

  374. Vlad Krandz April 5, 2011 at 5:52 pm #

    You’re entirely welcome, Helen. Now perhaps you enlighten me as to why Whites don’t have the right to their own Nations but Blacks, Browns, and East Asians do. And why I’m a racist, but those Non-White Nationalists are not?

  375. turkle April 5, 2011 at 6:01 pm #

    If I say that everyone should be able to live wherever they want, do I get another prize?

  376. asia April 5, 2011 at 6:03 pm #

    ‘Just like the comicbook conservaties, guys like you on the kneejerk left spew factoids without any historical knowledge. Pathetic’
    the ampedstatus site is OK, was slow to load on my PC.

  377. asia April 5, 2011 at 6:04 pm #

    ‘People migrating from more populated to less populated areas is like a natural law of physics’
    gee in my 50+ years what ive seen is the opposite.
    In US, Mexico City etc.

  378. asoka April 5, 2011 at 6:05 pm #

    For that I will award you the “FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT” prize.
    Unfortunately there are few true believers in freedom. Most want to build walls and pay armies to defend borders TO PREVENT FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT on the planet.

  379. Vlad Krandz April 5, 2011 at 6:07 pm #

    Evil Corporatists and Faux News Zionists lie too. They only want to win just like the Left. But I’m not one of those fake Conservatives nor was I speaking to them. There are few if any rich, right wing liars on this site. There may a be a couple of their dupes though.

  380. asia April 5, 2011 at 6:07 pm #

    ‘Ixnei’ is latin for ‘Scroll Past’.

  381. Vlad Krandz April 5, 2011 at 6:13 pm #

    No. We’re sick of “minorities” (Whites will never get minority status and its benefits – even when we become one) following us and sucking us dry. If they’re so great, why don’t they build something of their own?

  382. turkle April 5, 2011 at 6:14 pm #

    Hey, asia.
    Yes, that’s true. I shouldn’t have written in such absolutist terms.
    In general, people move from the poor, crowded third world to come to the less crowded, rich first world (e.g. America). There is a lot of immigration from India, China, and Mexico into the US but almost no reverse flow.
    Now, internally to a given country, the dynamics are not purely reflective of population densities, primarily because in the rural areas, there aren’t many good jobs, whereas the cities have work for people.
    I should have also mentioned that moving from a poor to a rich country is also like a physical law. It may even be more important than population densities, though they are often related, in that overpopulated places are oftentimes poor.

  383. Vlad Krandz April 5, 2011 at 6:16 pm #

    I call him Xenu. His use of *’s instead of quotation marks is just too cool.

  384. Ixnei April 5, 2011 at 6:48 pm #

    “Ix, why do you use so many astericks?”
    *MOOT*. You really don’t seem to get me/it.
    “Who else is tired of everyone’s if-I-were-the-dictator, 10-steps-to-perfect-utopia, everyone-needs-to-do-as-I-say, internet ramblings?”
    Tired! Hehehe!!!

  385. Ixnei April 5, 2011 at 6:51 pm #

    “‘Ixnei’ is latin for ‘Scroll Past’.”
    Q-Wow!!! Finally, a coherent sentence that I can understand, *fact-based* EvEn…
    Babble (sp?) on!!!

  386. Ixnei April 5, 2011 at 6:55 pm #

    As much as I think this guy is merely a *MASTER DEBATOR* flip-flopper, I gotta give this one a *THUMBS UP*:
    “Unfortunately there are few true believers in freedom. Most want to build walls and pay armies to defend borders TO PREVENT FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT on the planet.”

  387. Ixnei April 5, 2011 at 6:59 pm #

    “7 barber shops”
    Now that is simply sad. I’ve been shaving my own head for 20 years, and it’s a 15 minute job now (used to take 50+ minutes)…

  388. Ixnei April 5, 2011 at 7:03 pm #

    “Houses are empty and will stay empty because people can not afford to pay the annual property taxes.”
    Maybe you should be liek Bon Jovi, or the *Boss*, where you own hundreds of acres, but pay a mere $100/year in property taxes (my property taxes are $3k/year – rediculous!)

  389. Ixnei April 5, 2011 at 7:08 pm #

    “Hey, Ix, now when you want to emphasize something you can use HTML bold or italic tags.”
    *MOOT*. Let’s talk about *CLEARCUTTING*!!!

  390. Vlad Krandz April 5, 2011 at 7:14 pm #

    Me Tarzan, you King Kong, huh? Tarzan was King of the Apes. He beat up the Ape Chief by using martial arts instead of brute strength.

  391. Ixnei April 5, 2011 at 8:04 pm #

    How *totally* absurd is it, earning ~$30k/year, and saving $15k *every year*?
    It works, *sometimes*!!! LOL @ *speak for yourselves*

  392. Ixnei April 5, 2011 at 8:07 pm #

    Anyone want to talk about the clearcutting/slash and burn tactics that have devastated almost 50% of the *AMAZON BASIN*?
    I thought *NOT*.

  393. Jack Waddington April 5, 2011 at 8:07 pm #

    Turkle: Not sure there any good ideas out there, with or without us doing X. There’s the inevitable crash of capitalism and then it will matter little what anyone wants to do. Circumstances will run us. Meantime, the SYSTEM will do it’s damnedest to keep as mush of the status quo going as it can. The real adjustments are going to be in our heads. That is if we’ve not fried ourselves out of existence. Jack

  394. turkle April 5, 2011 at 8:46 pm #

    Uh, oh, Vlad is speaking about himself in the plural again.
    “If they’re so great, why don’t they build something of their own?”
    Yeah, cuz like in all all the countries made up primarily of the brown skinned, people live in caves and eat human flesh.

  395. Ixnei April 5, 2011 at 9:08 pm #

    Why U so *sarcastic* – LOL!!!
    “Yeah, cuz like in all all the countries made up primarily of the brown skinned, people live in caves and eat human flesh.”
    Yummy!!! I *DROOL*

  396. asoka April 5, 2011 at 9:15 pm #

    Re: Imminent Government Shutdown

    A group of 21 Senate Democrats, including moderates such as Sens. Joe Manchin (D-W.V.) and Ben Nelson (D-Neb.), sent a letter to House Speaker John Boehner on Tuesday urging the House to pass a bill that would block the president and members of Congress from receiving pay during a government shutdown.
    The letter requests a meeting with Boehner, whose busy Wednesday schedule could already include another trip to the White House for negotiations.
    “Our bill is simple: if we cannot do our work and keep the government functioning, we should not receive a paycheck,” the letter from Senate Dems reads. “If we cannot compromise and meet each other halfway, then we should not be paid.”

    Anybody think the Republicans are going to support the Democrats to support this bill?
    Anybody still believe there is not a dime’s worth of difference between Republicans and Democrats?

  397. Good Guy April 5, 2011 at 9:31 pm #

    Sometimes Jim is way over the top, but not this time. He really lays it out clearly and (somewhat) concisely that the whole “drill baby drill” attitude is delusional. LIke his sizing up of Yergin too 🙂

  398. asoka April 5, 2011 at 9:35 pm #

    Thank you, Ixnei. It is about time someone defends cannibalism, the condemnation of which is another instance of speciesism which maintains that there is something morally very special or distinctive about simply being a human. Speciesism says that Homo sapiens as a species that deserves special treatment.
    But we are animals, too, and there is no morally relevant distinction between humans and all other creatures, so what’s the big deal about cannibalism? If you are not vegetarian, you have already shown you’re down with eating animal flesh (cows, pigs, horses, dogs, rabbits, etc.)
    Cannibalism is a practice that used to be widespread. The cultural conquest of the world by Western thought has made it morally repugnant.
    I am not convinced by the so-called “Western” values that killed human beings by the millions in the 20th century, yet self-righteously condemns cannibalism (based on the propaganda of cultural background and cultural conditioning). Shrug off the conditioning, dudes.
    Be consistent and swear off killing (both humans and animals) altogether. If you justify other kinds of killing, your condemnation of cannibalism rings hollow.

  399. asoka April 5, 2011 at 9:40 pm #

    Speciesism says that Homo sapiens is a species that deserves special treatment.

  400. progressorconserve April 5, 2011 at 9:40 pm #

    “The main issue I have with this website – and I’m including myself here – is everyone has their opinions and beliefs…” BUT
    “I see us as all talk and no action.”
    There are multiple levels of action. IMO, this website enables the perfection of the first of these levels – BITCHING
    Beyond that, some of us are operating on the practical and physical level. TrippTicket is the best example of this — but there are many, many others.
    Thought and actions have to be tailored to the situation in which someone finds himself or herself. Not everyone can control 1000+ acres, like our JDFarmer. Some of us have a chicken behind the shed, mushrooms in a spare bathroom, or a goat on a rope.
    But real human action that can produce change – happens on the mental, psychological, and collective levels. That means group consensus and/or political action.
    I first came to this website planning to find political consensus. I have found some – but I have learned to look beneath the layers of the ClusterFuck for consensus. There will always be one, two, or three who ScrewUp the consensus.
    Here, asoka and vlad come to mind.
    Beyond that, though, I’m astonished at how much useful information I have begun to implement that I discovered on CFN. Permaculture and fungi farming come to mind.
    Keep asking questions, BTB.
    You are good at it!

  401. Muhammed Atta April 5, 2011 at 9:42 pm #

    The mania/passion/emoting without reason, is just as high now, as it was back in the 60s. We are already beyond peak oil usage.
    Meanwhile, while Birkenstock shod wailers wail, synthesis of hydrocarbons, space exploration and reaching out, rather than lowering expectations, will have Saturn making Saudi Arabia look like a shirt stain.
    We are not the only planet. time to move on.
    Hate humans? you are not alone.
    Just want to sell your writing? Well, are you pregnant yet?

  402. Muhammed Atta April 5, 2011 at 9:46 pm #

    Biofuels are kind of cool. It makes food prices so high that 2 billion people starve, and we have un-done all the preservation of life that “franken-foods” have done. James, you have to like that one as you trade insults with Eva in your bunker.

  403. asoka April 5, 2011 at 9:48 pm #

    Progressorconserve said: “There will always be one, two, or three who ScrewUp the consensus.
    Here, asoka and vlad come to mind.”
    Yup, I’m a non-conformist. I have a different view. I am often optimistic, and provide facts to back up my optimism.
    I am definitely pacifist and condemn violence, whether related to war or the animal on your dinner plate.
    I believe in FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT on planet earth and do not believe in borders or limits on immigration based on imaginary lines. Do you see the imaginary lines on our beautiful globe:
    I am proud my rational and evidence-based views make me a minority on CFN.
    Thank you for the compliment, progressorconserve.

  404. progressorconserve April 5, 2011 at 9:51 pm #

    Damnit Old – you really need to CALM down a little.
    Patrizza writes a thoughtful response to one of your posts; you quote her back to herself:
    “The rent shouldn’t be cheap, should be the right price, like everything else.”
    -patrizza- to old69 – back to patrizza –
    And then you have the temerity to call patrizza a “Right Wing Thug”
    You’ve got some good ideas, old. But you are losing all your readers with the the overly long posts, the repetition, the double posts, and the insults. Why insult Patrizza, for example??
    Relax, why don’t you? More people will read your posts when you concentrate on one idea at the time.

  405. berger April 5, 2011 at 9:56 pm #

    “Excellent read, Sir. I don’t think about what car my next one will be, but if there will be a next one. Often, when out driving, I look at all the waste land around every cloverleaf, highway exit, etc., and wonder, if or when we’ll be planting it to grow food, because of the severity of the crisis that we are in. Doing so would give the land more value than the highways themselves will have, as far as fossil fueled transportation is concerned.”
    I don’t believe that any soil touched by cars, asphalt or industry will be fertile.

  406. berger April 5, 2011 at 9:59 pm #

    “Yes, Mr. K, it’s all about the cars.
    People are nuts for their cars. Men, in particular, can have an entire conversation on the gas mileage of various vehicles, most usually pick-up trucks. (I know this for a fact because I recently had to break one up so we could get the original conversation back on track.)Geeezzz….
    When people are no longer able to drive their cars as they always have, look out.
    Uprising straight ahead.”
    An uprising to go back to the future that could never happen.

  407. progressorconserve April 5, 2011 at 10:10 pm #

    Are you quite sure you’re not putting the cart before the horse with the immigration issue?
    Here’s an idea to chew on, from a perspective standpoint…
    Do some of us feel that the “political will” and direction of the country is being controlled and manipulated by corporate powers?
    (The answer of course is: absolutely.)
    So, where do you think those entities come down on the whole “cheap immigrant labor” deal?
    The fairly obvious conclusion is: Nothing concerning [cheap, imported] labor is going to change until you get rid of those that exploit it for their own greed.
    …And that is the “immigrant issue” in a nutshell.
    Good points, Ozone. But I’m not sure how you are going to “get rid of” the corporate powers and entities that exploit cheap immigrant labor and most of the rest of us – without a revolution.
    I’m not seeing a revolution happening until food runs short and the power goes off.
    Meanwhile – the last thing we need is more human souls in America adding to the degradation of Planet Earth’s resources.
    I’m going to do what I can to encourage potential immigrants to stay home and work on the problems in their home countries.
    Let me know where you think I’m wrong.

  408. berger April 5, 2011 at 10:23 pm #

    “”The US used half of the oil we use today, and life was not Mad Max.”
    No kidding? For fuck’s sake there was well less than half the population we now have. Naturally, we used less oil.”
    I think he/she meant that oil wasn’t as widely used as it is today, regardless of population.

  409. progressorconserve April 5, 2011 at 10:24 pm #

    “Immigrants especially those in the food industry are treated no better then indentured servants of the 1600 and 1700 propping up the US with cheap labor. I say get your ass of your fucking computer and go out and replace a Mexican in the fields. No need for new cheap labor if you take the step of doing it your self.”
    -theroachman- replying to cavepainter
    That’s the whole point, roach. I have watched immigrant labor completely undercut and eliminate native born labor – here in poultry plant country where I live.
    The jobs went to the immigrant “lowest bidders” who were willing to live 10 to a house, pay no taxes, and never complain.
    Middle class America got cheap chicken. Corporate America got all of the profits.
    That model is breaking down.
    What do you think would be a reasonable maximum population for the continental US?

  410. berger April 5, 2011 at 10:40 pm #

    “What do you think would be a reasonable maximum population for the continental US?”
    The same as India?

  411. progressorconserve April 5, 2011 at 10:42 pm #

    First of all, ixnei – PLEASE, PLEASE explain what you intend to say by:
    “wall of post” – ixnei
    If it’s a joke or an insult – you must explain!!
    Then you fluff:
    “the clear relationship between racists and anti-immigrants. When exactly did *YOU* immigrate?”
    The “clear relationship” between racists and anti-immigrants only exists in your mind. They are two different issues completely.
    Prove me wrong – in the context of *peak everything* and resource depletion.
    The native american population of the US was 30 million, when Columbus got here. We are now at 315 million – only because of fossil fuel. Tell us, of CFN, why this is going to have a happy ending, please.

  412. berger April 5, 2011 at 10:47 pm #

    My girlfriends Grandfather told me a story about his upbringing. He said that his father was a house painter during the depression and they couldn’t afford to buy food, so they grew their own veggies and had a few chickens.
    He said that he and his brother (when they were very young) had the job of plucking the eyes out of potatoes and placing them (not chucking, lest they wanted a beating) in a bin in the cellar. His mother boiled all of them in jars and that was their food for the cold New England winter.
    What he said next left me stunned and teary eyed.
    “We had it pretty damn good back then.”

  413. asoka April 5, 2011 at 10:54 pm #

    ProCon said: “The jobs went to the immigrant “lowest bidders” who were willing to live 10 to a house, pay no taxes, and never complain.”
    You are right about not complaining. Complaining draws attention and risk deportation. Immigrants also observe the laws, stopping at every stop sign, for the same reason.
    You are wrong that they “pay no taxes” … unless they never eat out at McDonalds or KFC or any other fast food place… unless they never shop at WalMart or any other box store… unless they never buy gasoline, etc.
    I assume Georgia has a sales tax and immigrants are paying taxes every day they spend their money in the local economy. With every post on immigration you confirm your racism.

  414. berger April 5, 2011 at 11:00 pm #

    “We don’t need alternative energy, we need alternative lifestyles. Good luck telling THAT to the American public.”
    Tell that especially to the Palinites.

  415. progressorconserve April 5, 2011 at 11:08 pm #

    Thanks for the response, Captain. Sometimes it looks as though anyone expressing a practical thought here – must have LOST HIS/HER MIND!
    You say:
    “The US is just the blowoff valve for Mexico’s overpopulation problems. It may not be politically correct, but that’s the reality of it. I know, I know, dealing with reality sucks.”
    You are correct, CaptainSpaulding.
    Meanwhile, asoka is trolling me with that googleearth picture he posts every week – of nations without borders. But the borders are plainly visible, to anyone with eyes. The borders are rivers, mountain ranges, deserts – visible, practical borders.
    The Rio Grande border between the US and Mexico is a perfect border. It is visible and easily defended – from either direction.
    The Treaty of Guadaloupe Hidalgo established the US/Mexico border as a legal and defensible border under international law.
    All the rest of this is just noise.
    And the planet destroying desire of US multinationals for cheap labor – to beyond absurdity and into collapse.

  416. ozone April 5, 2011 at 11:10 pm #

    That is the most important advise to those with limited options (ummm, most of us).
    Like I told an aware 22 yr.-old t’other day: “Stay flexible; travel light; don’t get in the habit of “needing” much to get by.”

  417. turkle April 5, 2011 at 11:11 pm #

    The “Eating Fossil Fuels” article convinced me that humanity is ultimately doomed. Modern agriculture is not even close to sustainable. Read it and weep.
    See you in the bunker.

  418. progressorconserve April 5, 2011 at 11:24 pm #

    I am being trolled so badly. Here’s what asoka just said to me:
    “With every post on immigration you confirm your racism.”
    What an impediment to honest dialog. Meanwhile, asoka continues to demonstrate his own racism. Only his racism only favors the “M&M’s” as asoka called them last week.
    Do you have any suggestions, Captain? Or does anyone else have a suggestion?
    “To let a lie stand unchallenged is to give it some truth”
    So, ignoring a frequent and repetitive poster is not a solution, from my perspective.

  419. asoka April 5, 2011 at 11:37 pm #

    ProCon said: “The Rio Grande border between the US and Mexico is a perfect border. It is visible and easily defended – from either direction.”
    Do you say this with a straight face, after millions have waded across this so-called “border”?
    The Reconquista of land taken from Mexico is well underway.
    You can whine and bitch all you like, but nothing will stop the Mexicans from taking back their land, land that was forcibly and violently taken from them.
    The Treaty you refer to is not so rosy as you make it out to be. You also ignore that for 70 years after the Treaty was signed the border between the USA and Mexico was open. People went back and forth both ways with no problems.
    Then the “border patrol” was created in 1924. That’s when “illegal immigration” really got going, and the “border patrol” has been an obvious failure and a waste of taxpayers’ money.
    ¡Viva La Reconquista!

  420. progressorconserve April 5, 2011 at 11:44 pm #

    “What do you think would be a reasonable maximum population for the continental US?”
    The same as India?”
    -berger- to PoC
    berger, whether you are serious or not – we’ve got two big problems, here.
    One, is that India’s population is only sustained by fossil fuels. They may burn less, per capita, than the US – but without fossil fuels, fertilizer, and all that these entail, 100’s of millions of the Indian people would die.
    Two – the US is not India. ALL of us immigrated here to the US because we were unhappy somewhere else. This makes us a fractious Nation – genetically disposed to being uncooperative and to having a need for wide open spaces.
    There were +/- 30,000,000 native Americans in the US at the time of Columbus. We have exceeded that population by a factor of TEN!
    We have to stop growing the population of this Country.
    It may be too late, but I refuse to give up until death claims me.
    Turkle – when required, a man must fight.
    -bhagavad gita-

  421. jackieblue2u April 5, 2011 at 11:44 pm #

    Okay ok you say it’s time to move on, we are not the only planet
    you go first.

  422. asoka April 5, 2011 at 11:46 pm #

    Demographically, socially and culturally, the reconquista of the Southwest United States by Mexico is well under way. No other immigrant group in U.S. history has asserted or could assert a historical claim to U.S. territory. Mexicans and Mexican-Americans can and do make that claim. –Harvard University professor Samuel P. Huntington, 2004

    If you talk to people in Mexico… if you get them drunk in a bar, they’ll say we’re taking it back, sorry. That’s not an uncommon sentiment in Mexico, so why can’t we take it seriously here? This is like a Quebec problem if France was next door to Canada. –Neo-liberal political writer Mickey Kaus

  423. jackieblue2u April 5, 2011 at 11:47 pm #

    Yes you are good at it.
    I like both of you guys’ posts.

  424. progressorconserve April 5, 2011 at 11:52 pm #

    He’s still going, Captain –
    “The Reconquista of land taken from Mexico is well underway.
    You can whine and bitch all you like, but nothing will stop the Mexicans from taking back their land, land that was forcibly and violently taken from them.”
    Asoka denies a legal treaty. He denies the Rio Grande. He shills for corporate American multinationals as they pack the US full of desperate souls.
    He is a racist. But because he speaks in favor of “La Raza” (“the race”) it is all OK???

  425. LewisLucanBooks April 6, 2011 at 12:09 am #

    Funny. A year from now my life is going to be very different. No particular plan, as yet. I figure opportunities will present themselves and way will open. But right now, I’m divesting myself of “stuff.” Whatever it sells for is what it’s worth.
    I think I’m sticking with Western Washington. Or, maybe the Alaskan panhandle. I’ll be 62. Maybe, I thought, I’ll just throw a small camper on the truck (Ranger, short bed, standard, less than 50,000 miles) and kick around for awhile. See what’s out there. See if anyplace calls to me.

  426. asoka April 6, 2011 at 12:10 am #

    ProCon, not only are you a racist, you are a coward. You won’t talk directly to me… you crybaby to Capt. Spaulding.

    He is a racist. But because he speaks in favor of “La Raza” (“the race”) it is all OK???

    You are also ignorant of Spanish and the meaning of “la raza” which means “the people”

    a term often mistakenly translated into english as meaning “the race”, the true meaning of la raza is much closer to “the people”. this term cannot be properly defined in english by a simple one word answer due to language differences. i will explain the definition, but first:
    other definitions on this site claim that la raza is a racist organization. they are refferring to a group that calls itself “national council of la raza”, which they believe is a racist organization; and the people who typed those definitions mistakenly called the group la raza for short, either not knowing that la raza was actually a seperate term, or not knowing the true meaning of the term “la raza”.
    the term originated in the book “La Raza Cosmica” written by José Vasconcelos, a Mexican intellectual (1881-1959). He described la raza cosmica as the product of racial mixing over time that was already in progress (black, white, asian, native american, all becoming racially and culturally mixed due to the events of time, for example the conquest of mexico resulted in mixing of the blood and culture of the natives and the spaniards). He believed that eventually all of the races would be completely mixed into a new race that had the best attributes of all the cultures and would “show us the way” so to speak.

    Be honest ProCon and at least admit you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to translating “la raza”
    I am not talking about what is “legal” … anybody can pass a law and instantly make human beings “illegal”. I am talking about what is right. You are denying the reality of “La Reconquista” trying to denigrate it as “illegal”

  427. Pucker April 6, 2011 at 12:13 am #

    Any comments on Orlov’s book “Fleeing Vesuvius”?

  428. asoka April 6, 2011 at 12:14 am #

    According to ProCon and his racist buddy Vlad, “la raza” means “the race”
    Yeah, I’ve heard of that term before and I agree:
    consisting of ALL CULTURES and ALL PEOPLES

  429. progressorconserve April 6, 2011 at 12:19 am #

    Now he is calling me names, Captain.
    “ProCon, not only are you a racist, you are a coward” -asoka-
    And then asoka spins and quibbles about the dictionary definition of “la raza.”
    So try this. Type in “la raza” into ANY Spanish-English translator.
    The definition will return in English as, “race.”

  430. asoka April 6, 2011 at 12:29 am #

    Many people incorrectly translate our name, “La Raza,” as “the race.” While it is true that one meaning of “raza” in Spanish is indeed “race,” in Spanish, as in English and any other language, words can and do have multiple meanings. As noted in several online dictionaries, “La Raza” means “the people” or “the community.” Translating our name as “the race” is not only inaccurate, it is factually incorrect. “Hispanic” is an ethnicity, not a race. As anyone who has ever met a Dominican American, Mexican American, or Spanish American can attest, Hispanics can be and are members of any and all races.
    The term “La Raza” has its origins in early 20th century Latin American literature and translates into English most closely as “the people” or, according to some scholars, as “the Hispanic people of the New World.” The term was coined by Mexican scholar José Vasconcelos to reflect the fact that the people of Latin America are a mixture of many of the world’s races, cultures, and religions.
    Mistranslating “La Raza” to mean “the race” implies that it is a term meant to exclude others. In fact, the full term coined by Vasconcelos, “La Raza Cósmica,” meaning the “cosmic people,” was developed to reflect not purity but the mixture inherent in the Hispanic people. This is an inclusive concept, meaning that Hispanics share with all other peoples of the world a common heritage and destiny.
    And this is not just NCLR’s interpretation. According to the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, “La Raza” means:
    “…Mexicans or Mexican Americans considered as a group, sometimes extending to all Spanish-speaking people of the Americas.”
    Furthermore, MSNBC’s online Spanish-English website, Encarta, translates the term this way:
    “Hispanic Spanish-speakers in the Americas: Mexicans, Mexican Americans, or Spanish-speaking people of the Americas, considered as a group.”
    The Free Dictionary, available online, similarly finds that the term “La Raza”:
    “…embodies the notion that traditional, exclusive concepts of race and nationality can be transcended in the name of humanity’s common destiny.”

  431. Ixnei April 6, 2011 at 12:34 am #

    “”wall of post”” I believe it was *wall of POAST*, I might be wrong. You spammed for multiple pages – CLUE-BEE?
    “Then you fluff:
    “the clear relationship between racists and anti-immigrants. When exactly did *YOU* immigrate?””
    I guess you didn’t read my *POAST* last week – should I re-POAST it here for you, and derail the *convo*?
    The native american population (THERE YOU GO – from England?) of the US…

  432. Ixnei April 6, 2011 at 12:41 am #

    “It is about time someone defends cannibalism” I quoted turkle, not sure I supported it…
    But yeah, *BROTHA OF A DIFF’ MUTHA* You and me, we’re *THE SAME*.
    Ahahaha, argue *THAT*.

  433. progressorconserve April 6, 2011 at 12:41 am #

    Again, Captain, words have meaning.
    Making recourse to a Spanish-English dictionary, an organization could choose many definitions.
    el pueble = the people
    la comunidad = the community
    la raza = the race
    Perhaps La Raza should rename themselves with a name that translates in a less divisive manner.
    And, no matter where one looks it up, “la reconquista” translates into English as “the reconquest.”
    That sounds divisive, at best.

  434. progressorconserve April 6, 2011 at 12:54 am #