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1, 2, 3, Puke

     Europe may soon be choking on that plat du jour of government a la Hollandaise with the side of chopped Greek salad. The whole world, in fact, has got something like a giant hairball stuck in its craw. The hairball is composed of filaments of lies wound over a core of supernatural indebtedness. The lies are promises that the debt will be paid back.
     For two months the financial markets have gone sideways on a cushion of the European Central Bank’s Long Term Refinancing Operations and the hot air of austerity chatter. The illusion of remaining airborne may dissolve now with the Hollandaise denunciation of Franco-German team spirit while a centripetal vortex of unpaid obligations sucks notional wealth through the event horizon of massive deflation.
      Things are heating up, in other words. Wake up, sleepyheads! Welcome to the rest of the year 2012.
      Paul Krugman, the Nobel Prize winning Professor of Economics and International Affairs at the Woodrow Wilson School of Public and International Affairs at Princeton University, Centenary Professor at the London School of Economics, and op-ed columnist for The New York Times, is so amusing this morning. I, too, almost upchucked my “Paleo” diet breakfast of salmon hash with four eggs (pas de Hollandaise). Krugman writes in his column:
What’s wrong with the prescription of spending cuts as the remedy for Europe’s ills? One answer is that the confidence fairy doesn’t exist — that is, claims that slashing government spending would somehow encourage consumers and businesses to spend more have been overwhelmingly refuted by the experience of the past two years. So spending cuts in a depressed economy just make the depression deeper.
    What an excellent misrepresentation of reality by one of the official molders of public opinion and policy in this exceptional land. I would attempt to debate his statement above that spending less government money is proposed to encourage consumers, blah blah. It is proposed because government doesn’t have the money to spend and has run out of the ability to borrow more money due to the bad odor now wafting off the world’s compost heap of sovereign bond paper. Everyone is going broke simultaneously, including putative lenders, i.e. buyers of bonds, who are the same ones selling them.
     I like the way Krugman avers offhandedly to the concept of “depression.” I believe this is a new thing for him to admit a certain absence of “green shoots” on the spring economic scene. Heretofore his halftime act between two presidential terms has been sheer cheerleading, but I guess he forgot to bring his pompoms to the office yesterday. I would refer to the situation as something more severe than a “depression,” which merely suggests a valley between peaks. I would say that we are instead out on the arid buzzard flats beside the deep blue sea where modernity is shortly to drown itself in a fugue of suicidal bad faith.
     All of which is to say the pretense that has reigned since 2008 (viz: “recovery”) may not float through the rest of 2012. Surely in the USA, we are approaching a dark inflection point where the fall elections collide with the broken promises now gathering into the shitstorm vulgarly called “Taxmageddon.” The event horizon for that extravaganza of financial lightning strikes is officially January 1, but the effects will be felt long before that as households, businesses, pension funds, municipal governments, and various branches of the US military prepare to roll over and die.
      Enjoy the European sideshow for now because the roustabouts are still setting the props for act in the center ring. When the clown cars pull into the political conventions this summer, I would like to see these circus troupes greeted by large and lively mobs of furious citizens hurling objurgations at the likes of Barack Obama and Willard “Mitt” Romney. This is probably the least we can do to register some objection to the two useless parties’ way of running things. Also, by the way, I would wonder what the generals over in the Pentagon will think (or might do!) as they see their country fall to tatters. 

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About James Howard Kunstler

View all posts by James Howard Kunstler
James Howard Kunstler is the author of many books including (non-fiction) The Geography of Nowhere, The City in Mind: Notes on the Urban Condition, Home from Nowhere, The Long Emergency, and Too Much Magic: Wishful Thinking, Technology and the Fate of the Nation. His novels include World Made By Hand, The Witch of Hebron, Maggie Darling — A Modern Romance, The Halloween Ball, an Embarrassment of Riches, and many others. He has published three novellas with Water Street Press: Manhattan Gothic, A Christmas Orphan, and The Flight of Mehetabel.

819 Responses to “1, 2, 3, Puke” Subscribe

  1. Leibowitz Society May 7, 2012 at 8:56 am #

    The Big Slide has started with Europe and will continue, as no one seems to really have the ability to stand up and tell people what they need to hear, not what they want to here. A lack of leadership is just another symptom of an onrushing Dark Age.
    Visit the Leibowitz Society at leibowitzsociety.blogspot.com/2012/05/posterity-measures.html for more information and commentary on our civilizational decline.

  2. anticapitalistcharley May 7, 2012 at 9:00 am #

    please visit for radical ideas:
    subversesjournal.wordpress.com/

  3. JamesDave7 May 7, 2012 at 9:10 am #

    Great Post!!

  4. TrE May 7, 2012 at 9:13 am #

    And I nearly choked up my coffee at the image of Krugman’s pompoms. Thanks, Jim.
    Speaking of pompoms, the whole “lies as truth” we’ve been force-fed for the last number of years reminds me of the “in crowd” that surfaces in various pockets throughout our lives. In high school, we’re told the people who play sports and are cheerleaders are popular, interesting, and destined for great things, when it’s plain to see for anyone with a brain that the opposite is true.
    Later in life, we’re told through glowing articles that the high-profile, highly-paid bankers, financiers, and upper-management types with gleaming smiles and big homes are the winners in life, when it’s clear, once again, that it’s the humble and hardworking people who are most satisfied with ourselves and with life, which we’re too busy living to believe the garbage we’re presented as truth in the media.
    Whatever you hear–and whatever you notice happening–turn off the TV, remember that our time here is short, and get busy appreciating everything we have here that is free.
    newveganage.blogspot.com/2011/03/dirt-from-my-grave.html

  5. orbit7er May 7, 2012 at 9:18 am #

    Actually Paul Krugman has been inveighing against the plutocrats and the austerity promoting banksters for quite a while now. And Krugman is totally correct that the continued wafting upwards towards the rich of all the 99%’s dwindling resources is obviously going to do nothing for conventional growth or the desperately needed Green Transition.
    When the US wastes $1 Trillion per year on the costs of War, including now $200 per gallon fuel for Afghanistan, it is obvious that the US still has plenty of resources which could be invested in Rail, Green Transit, insulation etc. In this vein the nutcase Republicans are proposing to cut Medicare, Education etc so that the Military machine does not have to suffer ANY cuts under the debt deal those same Republicans agreed to last year.

    Krugman is wrong to think that we can return to Keynes’ prescription for the Govt to get the economy going by simply paying people to dig holes and fill them back in. In the age of Peak Oil and Peak Everything we do not have the resources for that. However he is right that if the public sphere whether the Feds, State and Local governments or people’s own community efforts do not invest in a Green Transition to invest in energy-saving efforts then it will not be done. Private individuals can compost on their own, plant gardens, etc etc. But they cannot run Trains or Green Transit by themselves which is the key to oil usage reductions as it accounts for 70% of US oil usage. It requires organized social entities of some sort to do that. Which has always been the blind spot of boutique Tesla Environmentalism.

  6. ptolemy2 May 7, 2012 at 9:21 am #

    Excellent post this week Jim. Meanwhile, while Cumulous clouds form heavily in the East like huge wool packs heaped in picturesque disorder, the average American sits in silence, waiting for the storm to break on this side of the pond.

  7. ozone May 7, 2012 at 9:26 am #

    Urp… Burp… Hwalp!! (Ohhh, that’s better.)
    Thanks Mr. James for another excellent screed. Are the snooze alarm time-periods getting shorter, or am I just getting hyper-sensitive to [potential] tipping points and ever-present excessive police actions?
    The feline reference is great! (Of course you’ve seen the l’il critters regurgitate; man, they look like they’re gonna turn inside out. This exceptional land will probably look similar soonish.)
    “The whole world, in fact, has got something like a giant hairball stuck in its craw. The hairball is composed of filaments of lies wound over a core of supernatural indebtedness. The lies are promises that the debt will be paid back.” -JHK
    Truly fascinating what’s been done in the name of capitalism for its very own sake; resource tipping point reached; nicely done, Captains of Finance.
    And then this:
    “What an excellent misrepresentation of reality by one of the official molders of public opinion and policy in this exceptional land. I would attempt to debate his statement above that spending less government money is proposed to encourage consumers, blah blah. It is proposed because government doesn’t have the money to spend and has run out of the ability to borrow more money due to the bad odor now wafting off the world’s compost heap of sovereign bond paper. Everyone is going broke simultaneously, including putative lenders, i.e. buyers of bonds, who are the same ones selling them.” -JHK
    I gots to tell ya, that’s one of the snarkiest snarks pointed at punditry ever snarked (which would be a GOOD thing, IMHO). The beauty of it is its’ beginning “complimentary” direction, turned on its’ head to bloodletting satire. These apologists for “Profits ‘Til the End” have got to be driven from the temple of reasoned discourse. To call them “unhelpful” is to say the very least. How shall we cast these demons out?

  8. metuselah May 7, 2012 at 9:27 am #

    Something Wicked This Way Comes
    Headline:
    The Department Of Homeland Security Is Buying 450 Million New Bullets
    And don’t kid yourself; they’re not for target practice. It’s .40 caliber ammunition, hollow point rounds that promise “optimum penetration for terminal performance.” The department also has a bid out for up to 175 million rounds of .223 caliber ammunition.
    This isn’t the flipping army, you know. This is an internal national police force, a department that didn’t even exist 10 years ago.
    Headline:
    Supreme Court OKs Strip Searches for Minor Offenses
    It’s okay with the Supreme Court if you are detained and subjected to a demeaning strip-search for such serious offenses against the State as violating a leash law or having a headlight out.
    Really, is being strip-searched and perhaps even forced to take a delousing shower for riding your bicycle without an audible bell reasonable? Of course not. So much for the 4th Amendment.
    Headline:
    Police Are Using Phone Tracking as a Routine Tool
    Even in the absence of judicial authorization, cell phone tracking has become widespread. An ACLU report covering more than 200 police departments finds that nearly all engage in the practice, but only a few bother with a warrant.
    Would you be shocked to discover that some police departments are trying to keep their activities secret because of the legal implications? Officers have even been warned to keep their cell phone tracking out of police reports. Now what was that oath about upholding the law?
    Headline:
    The NSA Is Building the Country’s Biggest Spy Center (Watch What You Say)
    The crown jewel of Federal spying is a new $2 billion, high tech center in Utah, a million square feet devoted to data gathering and storage. “NSA has turned its surveillance apparatus on the U.S. and its citizens,” reports an account of the program.
    The facility will help manage information from 10 to 20 domestic telecom “listening posts.” “We are, like, that far from a turnkey totalitarian state,” says William Binney, a former senior NSA crypto-mathematician.
    What Is heading Our Way?
    These are only a few recent headlines. But the police state is growing much faster than even these stories suggest. There is the developing proliferation of domestic spy drones; a variety of so-called cyber-security bills – internet kill switches – are working their way through Congress; and, of course, there are executive power grabs like the presidential power to target American citizens for assassination found in the National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA).
    .
    .
    Via: The Coming Depression
    flpbd.it/uAJZK

  9. Dirk May 7, 2012 at 9:29 am #

    Riding along on the highway to work listening to NPR’s business news segment I was struck by the useless chatter and buzz around an IPO of Facebook or some other such inane social blog. Who gives a shit?? At this late hour instead of real meaningful ‘business’ offerings that may actually offer some prayer of solving any of the grave issues we face, ‘investors’ are posturing to buy ‘shares’ of this crap??? I was reminded once again, as I am so often these days, how deeply, deeply fucked we are. But…. there is no fix anyway (at least not one that will garner a nice profit for those investors) so why not eat, drink and day-trade merrily, for tomorrow the ‘recovery’ tips over on its head and does a face plant. Good thing I drink or I’d have to take it up.

  10. Onthego May 7, 2012 at 9:30 am #

    The voters in Greece, France and Russia this morning provide proof positive that the governed are not going to go quietly down the road their betters have mapped out for them. Here at home, there is new evidence about how much the psychological burden — and perhaps, the social stigma — of being unemployed is weighing on the minds of those out of work for long periods of time. That situation is only going to get worse, regardless of the spin the number crunchers try to put on the cold hard facts of no jobs. November is coming.

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  12. William Hunter Duncan May 7, 2012 at 9:35 am #

    If Krugman is a Nobel Laureate, the Nobel is a trinket they hand out at Ivy League bake sales.
    As to collapse, I’m glad I live in Minneapolis, where Minnesota Nice overlays a tough as nails resoluteness to survive, and a general vibe that what we want is peace (or so I tell myself).
    http://www.offthegridmpls.blogspot.com

  13. al May 7, 2012 at 9:41 am #

    The Generals at the Pentagon?? They will never rise up. Nope they have been trained to serve and obey.

  14. bubbleheadMarc May 7, 2012 at 9:41 am #

    I’m surprised you didn’t write about our anarchist would be bombers here in Cleveland this week. A vote for either major party is a wasted vote. I’m voting Libertarian this time [again]. After all, at least the Libertarians are on record as being opposed to public education.

  15. ozone May 7, 2012 at 9:42 am #

    Well, according to the above observations by the Mika/Met/laddie complex, I’m not being hyper-sensitive, but exactly why a supposed citizen of Israel would give a shit about a fascist lock-down of the FUSA is a little beyond me. (?)

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  17. polyvinyl May 7, 2012 at 9:46 am #

    If you read Krugman’s blog on the Times’ site (as opposed to the NYT editorials), you can go back quite some time and see that he has referred to the aftermath of the 2008 crash as The Lesser Depression. And the Obama administration certainly would not consider him to be their cheerleader.
    Not saying his viewpoints are correct… but I think arguments against him have more credence if they are accurate.

  18. ozone May 7, 2012 at 9:58 am #

    BHM,
    What’s to write? Just another set-up/entrapment job for propaganda purposes, executed with marching-band precision by gum’mint toadies.
    Ho-hum, ho-hum, it’s how we gull the dumb!
    (Sung to the jaunty Disney dwarvish classic.)
    It’s just what desperate diversionary psy-ops fuckwits DO.
    ;o)

  19. lsjogren May 7, 2012 at 10:01 am #

    orbi7er:
    Show me the articles Krugman published decrying the bailouts of the auto companies as pathetic gasps of a dying empire and I will find more credibility to your post.

  20. metuselah May 7, 2012 at 10:03 am #

    exactly why a supposed citizen of Israel would give a shit about a fascist lock-down of the FUSA is a little beyond me
    ==
    Why? Because we already know who the victims of the Vatican/CIA nazis were, don’t we? And all the CIA/MSM propaganda points to same happening again. I don’t believe in coincidence. The millions of thieving fat cats in Washington, D.C. and the surrounding counties are the 1%. They all belong the thieving gov mafia Vatican/CIA/military inquisition and murder complex. They are all Vatican Catholics, as I already shown to you previously via the demographics data concerning the richest counties in the US and where they are located.

  21. Neon Vincent May 7, 2012 at 10:09 am #

    And to think that Krugman is actually too realistic for the policy makers in Washington and London. That means that the people in charge are listening to people even more out of touch with reality than he is!
    That written, I’m not surprised that you’re having your issues with Krugman, as the two of you belong to diametrically opposed schools of economic thought, something I take advantage of in my classes. I use you and Joel Salatin of Polyface Farms as examples of people who subscribe to ecological economics, people who not only believe that without the environment, there is no society, and without society, there is no economy, but also think the current system is unreformable and should be scrapped and remade from scratch. Krugman serves as the most environmentally realistic example of the mainstream economists, who usually discount issues of resource depletion and pollution along with the externalities they produce. Krugman will at least consider the externalities in his analyses. He’s certainly more willing to examine the detrimental effects of burning coal and other fossil fuels than, say, Ben Bernanke and Alan Greenspan. He also thinks the current system is at least theoretically reformable. In his view, the people are the problem, not the system itself. I guess that’s what ticks you off about him. You don’t have faith in either the system or the people running it.
    Also, you mentioned the Paleo Diet. Over at Crazy Eddie’s Motie News, last Saturday I included a news item in my sustainability linkspam about how a blogger advocating the Paleo Diet got in legal trouble with the State of North Carolina for “practicing dietetics without a license” over his writing. Yes, really. For your sake, may New York not have such a stick up its butt over such issues.
    crazyeddiethemotie.blogspot.com/

  22. Casual Observer May 7, 2012 at 10:10 am #

    As much as Jim’s prognostications about imminent collapse or eruption to chaos each week entertain, I have reached the conclusion after five seven years of worrying about peak oil that it simply will not happen. The rules can be changed by government at will and the ability of the elite power brokers to manage the core message of “everything is good” will continue for a long, long time. You all can rest easy at night knowing your bank will be open tomorrow morning and the dollar in your wallet will be accepted by your neighborhood grocery man. Seriously the USA is still at the top of the heap militarily speaking and has the wherewithal to easily pick up the pieces and rebuild in a short amount of time should a another major financial event take place again. It’s all good!

  23. pequiste May 7, 2012 at 10:12 am #

    After a quick glimpse at this weeks’ title, I thought that Jim went to the same grocery store checkout line as the one I went through. No, it wasn’t the tatted and pierced female(?) bovine-appearing human in front of me; with an order including buckets of ice cream and (who would have thunk it) cheez-doodles in the big bag. Nope. It was the lumpen proletariat magazines in the rack that made me want to “1,2,3 PUKE.” With the exception of a fetching young woman with six-pack abs and no visible tats, every single magazine had either a Kardashian family member, Beyonce or Oprah on the cover. I began choking when one of the slicks declared that Beyonce was the “World’s Most Beautiful Woman.” At this point I did upchuck slightly last evening’s lasagna. Just enough to get stuck in my throat. GAG! Truly the signs that our civilization is “in extremis.”
    Getting back to the reality of Jim’s piece today – the media shills and whores will be selling the “recovery” and the virtues of hyper-capitalism even after the system collapses. Its hard to be concerned when one is basking in the Caribbean’s azure sea when cruising on a 90 ft Maritimo. The political conventions will be sealed off from any unscheduled interruptions by the great unwashed and the same ol- same ol will result. As far as some empirical economic research done over the weekend: Chinese palace rugs are being thrown out to the curb in Boca Raton. It also seems that every restaurant trying to get by (even in tony downtown Delray Beach) is putting out 1/2 price coupons to entice diners. Methinks it will be a simultaneous double feature of deflation (housing, wages, art prices) with inflation for essentials (food, energy, medicine.) A splendid piece today in any case Jim. As they say in Montreal: Nous sommes tout fuque.

  24. empirestatebuilding May 7, 2012 at 10:13 am #

    It could be worse, and it was fun while it lasted. All good things must come to an end. etc…
    It’s best to not get too worked up about things that are out of your control.
    Make Love, Not War, Be Prepared For Both to quote the old gun store bumper sticker.
    Aimlow Joe was here
    http://www.aimlow.com

  25. ozone May 7, 2012 at 10:16 am #

    Uhh,
    So I shan’t pose the question again, as the context is “excellently misrepresented”.
    Now, back to the will-o-da-people that’s being highly influenced by financial shenanigans. Hiya, Pooty, long time no see, dude! (There’s a guy over in France you might want to have a chat with when the hair-tearing dies down.)

  26. noel bodie May 7, 2012 at 10:16 am #

    In Krugman’s defense: long term interest rates for U.S. Bonds is a little over 1% suggesting the gov’t could borrow short term very cheaply to do Keynsian stimulus.

  27. Spudzlarkin May 7, 2012 at 10:26 am #

    This is hardly world news but where I currently live, in Southern Ontario, it is as if the powers that be know what is coming and are actually doing something about it.
    A huge big old warehouse down by the railway tracks disappeared overnight and a sign appeared saying that this will be the site of the new railway station (right by the exit from the highway). The railway runs parallel to the highway. I have only ever seen freight running on that railway – more precisely “heard” it – it’s a rare event.
    Furthermore, the railway will run to the market up in St Jacobs with barely a nod given to the big box malls straddling the highway.
    I have also noticed that the houses are built much more closely together here and neighborhoods are walkable. The neighboring farmland is intact. This is completely the opposite of Michigan across the border.
    It’s like they know.

  28. Solar Guy May 7, 2012 at 10:34 am #

    PUSH ON. DO GOOD. KEEP SMILING.

  29. Hammering Truth May 7, 2012 at 10:38 am #

    James, Are the NAZIs taking over Greece? Golden Dawn? Are the Chinese buying out America? The world is getting smaller everyday: youtu.be/c2gFC7-AAQM

  30. DeeJones May 7, 2012 at 10:38 am #

    You know, with the election of a Socialist in France, and the Left winning in Greece, and a strong Left coalition in Germany now, it looks like the Right may be on the outs with the Public.
    Will wait to see how things go here tho, there could be a Right back-lash and if Mitt the Twit wins, better start practicing that Goose step.
    And I have to disagree with you on Krugman, he has hardly been the Cheerleader you call him. Of course he also hasn’t been a very harsh critic of either this or the prior administration, there really isn’t one in the MSM anymore,not like back when there was a Jack Anderson, what was then called a muck-rakeing journalist. Now they are all too afraid to offend their corporate masters.
    Keep it up tho, and you really should consider moderating the comments section here, it just get way too off in the Fringe…
    Dee

  31. Newfie May 7, 2012 at 10:42 am #

    As you once said, James, modern economics is a cargo cult. The cultists are wondering why more ‘cargo’ is not arriving after trying both austerity and stimulus. It’s bad enough when billions of people believe in imaginary Daddies in the Sky. When billions of people believe in the cult of never ending growth it is mind boggling. We came down from the trees too soon. We’ll soon be going back.

  32. Norman Conquest May 7, 2012 at 10:53 am #

    Nicely done JHK! I was wondering what part of the ongoing collapse would focus your attention today. I suppose Sarkoszy’s defeat is as good a point of departure as any. Also, liked the bit about the “event horizon”. Keep up the good work, don’t be disuaded by the plethora of inane comments, not to mention that weird sports spam that keeps appearing.

  33. budizwiser May 7, 2012 at 10:53 am #

    I think current events are beyond “words.”
    Paul Krugman makes his schtick up from what he reads and hears and sees just like we all do.
    The problem is: “We have systems too large to understand – let alone describe or control with any real expertise.”
    When we get away from discussing social structures and targeting our understanding of human nature – we may have a chance of correcting our futures into less chaotic, and hopefully less uncomfortable result.
    A starting point is acknowledging that a broken/corrupted political system is never going to “correct” or “manage” any culture’s future reasonably.
    Instead of participating in the system – throw a fucking wrench into it – vote for Ron Paul. He has the best chance of “dicking things up.” And his election will probably result with his vice-president finishing his term.
    Now that’s change you can believe in………
    Or go ahead and act like these people actually govern honestly – god help us all.

  34. J Lee May 7, 2012 at 10:57 am #

    If you don’t believe Krugman then why don’t you (Kunstler) look at the data yourself. The problem you will have is that the data goes against your opinion. Now what are you going to do? Change your opinion based on the data or maintain your opinion in face of the data. For some of us that isn’t a quandary. For you, Kunstler it, apparently will be.

  35. marksstc May 7, 2012 at 11:01 am #

    From reports of the imminent collapse of the fuel-cooling pond at Fukushima #4 and subsequent radiation poisoning of the northern hemisphere, we’ll be experiencing full-blown martial law before you know it, one of the outcomes of which will be the cancellation of elections.

  36. orbit7er May 7, 2012 at 11:06 am #

    Krugman, like pretty much all the Economists of whatever stripe, has never taken Peak Oil or Limits to Growth seriously, and thus would never argue against bailing out the Auto/Oil/Sprawl complex in the USA. James Galbraith DID publish a paper last year suggesting that economists have discounted resource limits – at least opening it to some consideration. But it appears to have made no dent in most economists (outside of Marxist materialists who have always seen this relation) thinking.

    On the other hand as I mentioned above, when the USA is wasting $1 Trillion every YEAR on the costs of War, it is rather difficult to say that we are broke and have no resources to invest in a Green Transition. This point has to be repeatedly emphasized as besides Auto Addiction, it is a major elephant in the room ignored by pretty much all the Corporate media pundits, talk shows and discussions. That is a LOT of money!
    Surely enough to run our existing Rails, restore parts of our 233,000 miles of Rail and even build high-speed Rail for mid to long distance travel and thus cut our oil usage by 20% in a year.

  37. metuselah May 7, 2012 at 11:07 am #

    A starting point is acknowledging that a broken/corrupted political system is never going to “correct” or “manage” any culture’s future reasonably.
    Instead of participating in the system – throw a fucking wrench into it – vote for Ron Paul.
    ==
    Well said, Bud.

  38. seani May 7, 2012 at 11:19 am #

    In 2009, the most scary explanation of our predicament was a 1 hour description by Krugman, basically explaining that the academics (Bernanke)people who had thought of all the things to try were in charge and they tried everything and nothing worked. He implied 4 years ago that nothing was going to work to fix our problem and he didn’t really know what to ‘fix’ it either. AND he said this was much worse than anything before….
    fora.tv/2009/01/29/Paul_Krugman_The_Global_Economy
    Not trying to say he is right….just that hasn’t been saying that everythings is A-OK,

  39. newworld May 7, 2012 at 11:20 am #

    A few words about the “generals” that JHK writes of, they are political appointees. One of the tests for loyalty they must pass requires the trip to Israel, and from that they are allowed to join one of two camps. The first and this is where the Air Force is today is the Rapture camp which people will tell you at Daily Kos is bad. The second camp is basic Davos Man and acceptable to the Reform jew narrative of the enightened elite guiding the dumb brutes to peaceful commerce, to Kossaks this is good. (Wesley Clark is a famous example of this kind of general as was the scots-irish looking general who Obama rightly fired)
    Its the colonels you must worry about, if you must worry. The “generals” are as useless as the great Stan Kubrick portrayed them in “Strangelove.”

  40. mistified May 7, 2012 at 11:36 am #

    European leadership seems to be changing before the hard choices have even been made. Socialists are replacing moderates before any moderation of government spending has been enacted. Pulling in the old belt was never even tried.
    What follows? Once socialist leaders heap more spending of money they do not have on top of spending of money they DID not have, a lovely group of fascists will step forward to be embraced.
    This will not end nicely.

  41. Rhino May 7, 2012 at 11:38 am #

    Message to Assoka,
    I gave you a platform to show us your true colors and once again it isn’t pretty.
    Your reply to my challenge to tell us what you would have done had you been in Harry-the buck-stops-here-Houdidi’s shoes in 1945 was to once again cast aspersions on an entire race of people. Ugly, disturbing racism.
    The reason for my vociferousness should be obvious but in case it isn’t: your stock in trade, fuckweed, is stupidness.
    Why stupidness? Because stupidness is effective, it appeals to the worst in people – sloth, laziness, hate, malice (and other things).
    In your case the reasoning in your posts shows laziness, it appeals to the laziness in people, your conclusions being shallow and simplistic, requiring the minimal exertions of the lethargic, lazy mind. And your motives? Hate and malice apparently.
    Why you hate is unknown to me but I don’t buy your story about being an elderly black man that grew up under Jim Crow.
    The stupidness you propound is not much different than the fashionable stupidness I saw and heard decades ago when I lived on campus, it hasn’t changed much over the years because the young ‘uns in our family in universities in Israel and Europe and North America are hearing the same old stupidness.
    To paraphrase Churchill stupidness gets halfway around the world before reason has a chance to get its pants on. If it was just stupidness that’s one thing. But stupidness has evil as its companion. I shouldn’t have to elaborate but I’ll give one example: the Nazis adoption of the final solution to the Jewish “problem”. Stupidness and evil walking hand in hand.
    We have history as a guide to show us where your brand of facile stupidness goes fuckweed.

  42. k-dog May 7, 2012 at 11:44 am #

    Arranging deck chairs on the Titanic is for naught. The rip along the sides is letting in water and has been since 1985 the year humans stopped living of the earth’s interest and began to squander the Earth’s capital. Nobody in power gets it, growth in the conventional sense has been impossible for years and if they know this they won’t talk about it.
    Close your eyes and imagine what sort of world you would like to see in a hundred years. Open them and see that everyone around you is totally clueless about how to make the world you imagine happen. Everywhere politicians attempt to remodel home economies built on bad foundations. Growth growth growth is all they can imagine to fix the leaking roof when growth growth growth is what has caused problems we have now in the first place. Solutions are known but are ignored when spoken.
    Barack quObama and Willard “Mitt” the “Twitt” Romney have no intention of fundamentally changing the way things get done. But changing the game is the only way to put things right. Sustainability is the answer but it is only possible if there is dedication to full employment with a determined effort to forge a society founded on equality and shared sacrifice. Truth in all things government is essential to move forward in any positive way but no republicrat is going to embrace that.
    Lively mobs of furious citizens hurling objurgations will be to no avail and will hardly make the news. Telling truth to power will be a waste of time told to men dedicated only to increasing their own personal fortunes and political capital. We need leaders who see the sparrow as it falls and not those who worship birds of prey. Let them stand up, now is the time. Men who care to leave the land in better shape than they found it stand up for that must be the new definition of growth. Growth in the conventional sense now means death.

  43. k-dog May 7, 2012 at 11:58 am #

    “A starting point is acknowledging that a broken/corrupted political system is never going to “correct” or “manage” any culture’s future reasonably.
    Instead of participating in the system – throw a fucking wrench into it – vote for”
    k-dog

  44. Rhino May 7, 2012 at 12:01 pm #

    correction: Harry-the buck-stops-here-Houdidi… should read “Houdini”

  45. Adam Eran May 7, 2012 at 12:02 pm #

    Full marks for rhetoric, but sadly out of touch with real world economics. For a more coherent account of Europe’s troubles from a Modern Monetary Theorist, see Billy Mitchell’s presentation here: bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=19247
    MMT has the distinction of actually predicting the bust following the bubble (a bigger one than preceded 1929), unlike Krugman and the neo-classical economists.
    …and to really make Kunstler’s head explode, take a look at Amory Lovins TED talk here: ted.com/talks/amory_lovins_a_50_year_plan_for_energy.html

  46. ofthehands.com May 7, 2012 at 12:04 pm #

    What’s so amusing/sobering/frightening/infuriating (take your pick) about that Krugman quote is it gets at the heart of our problem with dealing with our predicament–that growth is still the end game. When the only outcome you accept as a good one is growth, then you get to claim that cutting government spending is supposed to boost consumer spending, or that the government spending more imaginary money will cause everyone else to spend more imaginary money, or so on and so forth. Everyone’s looking for the actions that will return us to the economic growth we think is normal when nothing’s going to do the trick. That boat sailed.
    So this leaves economists, politicians and a good percentage of the population sounding like desperate schizophrenics. We can’t imagine creating a new goal: scaling back, reducing our standards of living, reducing income inequality so as to ease this transition, and working on building new economic standards that can function in a contracting world, even if they don’t give us everything we want. Even with such a policy, we’d still be looking at a good amount of pain as our energy and resources fall short, but at least we wouldn’t be actively exasperating the situation.
    But since no one can seem to get away from the idea of economic growth, we’re doomed to just flailing about as natural limits kick our asses farther and farther down the path of no return. This, again, is a reason not to listen to many of our experts. Their expertise is some of the most dangerous stuff out there at the moment.
    Joel

  47. k-dog May 7, 2012 at 12:07 pm #

    “I have reached the conclusion after five seven years of worrying about peak oil that it simply will not happen. The rules can be changed by government at will and the ability of the elite power brokers to manage the core message of “everything is good” will continue for a long, long time.”
    Did you ever hear about this thing called gravity? I think that’s an example of a rule that can’t be changed.

  48. metuselah May 7, 2012 at 12:12 pm #

    Very good discussion this morning..
    There is a huge ball of tangles to unravel. We know how fascists are made. We know how the dupes are trained. And we know who trains them and has been training them for decades centuries millennias. All is already known and understood. Yes, the enormity of the action necessary to transform the conditions of thousands of years of human slavery can be overwhelming. But as they say, and this is also in reply to TEETEE, a journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step. We need to take that psychological first step and direct our will towards dissolving the feudal fascist system that’s been foisted on us all.

  49. ccm989 May 7, 2012 at 12:19 pm #

    Neither severe austerity or Keynesian economics are going to work because the top 1% aren’t going to play along. They want more austerity for everyone BUT themselves. For themselves they want MORE TAX BREAKS, enough so all the infrastructure falls apart, all the schools and hospitals collapse, and only the military remains (under their control) to stop the rest of us from rioting, revolting etc. Krugman says the economic system isn’t the problem and suggests it can be fixed. And he’s right but the obvious fix means taxing the top 1% a lot MORE. And the 1% has already bought off all of Congress, the Supreme Court (remember Citizens United), the District Attorneys, etc. so good luck shaking those creeps down.
    The whole economic system will not be torn down either because it benefits the top 1%. No way are they going to stop doing what is making them progressively richer and richer even in this “Lesser Depression.” And they don’t give a damn if you can’t make your mortgage payment, lost your health insurance and your job. They want you dead. Seriously, if you don’t have a job, if you’re old, if you’re handicapped, if you aren’t producing something that makes them richer, you might as well drop dead. You have no purpose other than to make the top 1% lives even better. And the top 1% will never ever have enough. Ever.
    Imagine if it were WWII and the current top 1% were in charge. They would refuse to fund the Manhattan Project because taxes would be required to fund the project. War profiteering is hugely profitable. And the Manhattan Project is nothing but Socialism (which thanks to Fox News is now a dirty word). What we need to do is CHANGE PUBLIC OPINION. Make it popular to help your community, your town, your state. Hands on stuff like cleaning up the parkways, painting school buildings, etc. Excess wealth is something to be ashamed of, if you’re Christian, and should be looked down upon as GREED, a sin. Vulture capitalism is evil. Owning so many homes you can’t remember the number is gloating and base. Helping your fellow man and this Earth should be something held in high esteem.
    We don’t need to change the economic system, we need to change the mindset. Jesus, Gandhi and Abraham Lincoln should be the heroes, not Gordon Gecko.

  50. sevenmmm May 7, 2012 at 12:21 pm #

    My best guess is The Generals will be busy with the outside forces, now planning their arrival. And doing so with a lot less support from the political, and/or the citizens of this bankrupt country of hollow victors, who only insist in repeating in celebration the Boar’s Head Carol in a stupefied chant. Such bafoons this artificial system has spawned.
    I believe there is around or about 54 Trillion Dollars (of what) of funds available yet, owned by various investment schemes. That is enough to cover the debts and unfunded obligations of the government, but still won’t account for the dwindlong fiat served up by the Federal Reserve. It is now a race to get your investments to safety – of various means – to support yourself on a local level.

  51. ozone May 7, 2012 at 12:21 pm #

    “But since no one can seem to get away from the idea of economic growth, we’re doomed to just flailing about as natural limits kick our asses farther and farther down the path of no return. This, again, is a reason not to listen to many of our experts. Their expertise is some of the most dangerous stuff out there at the moment.”
    -Joel
    Good comment, Joel, and I would agree.
    Interesting how most “experts” happen to be self-professed, or come out of “vetted” think-tanks, or are properly credentialed by the proper universities.
    Yep, it’s self-perpetuated expertise that always glosses over the most obvious predicaments with pronouncements of, “It’s complicated, let us experts take care of the thinking stuff. You lumpen dummies just kick back in the recliner; us smart guys will handle everything. It’s All Good!”

  52. k-dog May 7, 2012 at 12:21 pm #

    Amory Lovins is a cornicopian dreamer.

  53. k-dog May 7, 2012 at 12:31 pm #

    Amory Lovins is a cornucopian shill.

  54. asoka. May 7, 2012 at 12:32 pm #

    Mornin’ Rhino. Thanks for waking me up and calling me out to play.

    In your case the reasoning in your posts shows laziness, it appeals to the laziness in people…[ad hominem attack deleted]

    Let’s look at what white Europe (Russians, Germans, etc.) did in the 20th century versus what brown South Americans did.
    The white Europeans were not lazy. They were industrious and rational. They killed millions, efficiently, as a result of planning.
    The brown South Americans (my neighbors) were taking their siestas, eating their papaya, and enjoying life in a hammock (they still do today).
    When the white people in charge of the planet are hard working, rational, and industrious… the “best and brightest” and the “greatest generation” and the “masters of the universe” types, the planet suffers more and millions die.
    I embrace laziness. The planet is better off with lazy horticulture.
    ==================
    MESSAGE TO RHINO:
    Thanks for coming out to play, Rhino. When you post you can call me names all you want. It must have some therapeutic value for you.
    But you cannot engender that same behaviour in me. I retain my freedom to respond to you in a civilized and dignified manner. No one can force me to lower my standards.
    I will reply to you respectfully, and not in an ad hominem way … if I can overcome my laziness.
    This hammock is comfortable and the daily sunbath and birdsong and fresh fruits are divine.

  55. rippedthunder May 7, 2012 at 12:35 pm #

    Mornin’ Met, “It’s .40 caliber ammunition, hollow point rounds that promise “optimum penetration for terminal performance.” The department also has a bid out for up to 175 million rounds of .223 caliber ammunition.”
    Hollow points do not provide optimal penetration they do have good stoppong power though. consider this. If you think good ol’ home grown boys will fire on their neighbors I believe you to be mistaken. abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread173251/pg3
    I figure they will run way short of ammo before the huddled masses are tamed. I can easily muster a half dozen pitch forks dipped in dog shit and I will never run out of ammo. I have a coupla dogs!{wink,wink}Just sayin’ Dammit! now the NSA is on my trail again!

  56. Rhino May 7, 2012 at 12:37 pm #

    “It’s complicated, let us experts take care of the thinking stuff. You lumpen dummies just kick back in the recliner; us smart guys will handle everything.” – Ozone
    The business world and Wall Street judges things and people by results. Ha! Lehman gone. Citi, Bear, Merrill, AIG barely twitching corpses on life support.
    Who can forget the striding, smiling, supremely confident Greenspan, the tool of Wall Street and wizard that gave us the great “moderation”. And his fellow ideologues Rubin and Summers and their bearded fartboy Bernanke.

  57. k-dog May 7, 2012 at 12:39 pm #

    I agree, OFTHEHANDS made a great post, the truth is finally spoken:
    “We can’t imagine creating a new goal: scaling back, reducing our standards of living, reducing income inequality so as to ease this transition, and working on building new economic standards that can function in a contracting world, even if they don’t give us everything we want. Even with such a policy, we’d still be looking at a good amount of pain as our energy and resources fall short, but at least we wouldn’t be actively exasperating the situation.”
    The italics are mine, this is fundamental to creating a sustainable future.

  58. mistified May 7, 2012 at 12:42 pm #

    “And they don’t give a damn if you can’t make your mortgage payment, lost your health insurance and your job. They want you dead. ”
    How is one, aside from a funeral director, supposed to profit from the dead? Makes no sense. Back to drawing board.

  59. ofthehands.com May 7, 2012 at 12:42 pm #

    Thanks, Ozone. I certainly don’t argue that there aren’t smart, educated and wise people out there that we should learn from, but I hate what expertise seems to have become in our society. It’s rooted, more often than not, in clique-ish behavior, technical jargon, condescension and dismissal. It’s usually a slave to scientific reductionism and tends to believe that every place is the same, every person is the same, variables are evil–and nonexistent, ideally–and that there’s no such thing as local knowledge and wisdom.
    I guess, in other words, I hate the expertise that has modeled itself on industrialism, which seems to be the majority of expertise these days.
    Joel

  60. asoka. May 7, 2012 at 12:43 pm #

    My best guess is The Generals will be busy with the outside forces, now planning their arrival.
    ==================
    The military is a giant waste of money, a socialist waste of money, with taxpayers forced to pay for it.
    I can’t worry too much about the generals, or the colonels. Has anyone noticed they have a long string of losing in recent military engagements?
    After ten years in Afghanistan, the Taliban are stronger than ever, and the USA is abandoning an US$80 million embassy (more taxpayer money wasted) because our glorious military is incapable of either providing security or eliminating the Taliban threat.
    Eisenhower was right. Every dollar spent on the military is theft.

  61. smckinley May 7, 2012 at 12:44 pm #

    Mr. Kunstler, you really need to work on understanding economics, monetary systems, and government finance the way you did urban planning. Your assessment of government finance is stuck at the same level as the Tea Party, other right-wingers and MSM. Repeat after me: “government debt is absolutely nothing like household debt.” Government debt really is more like water to fish than a checkbook. The same goes for a lot of organizations bigger than a mom and pop corner store.
    Yes, in the end there is a net result, and it’s based on the nation’s productivity, although the borders of what counts as “the nation’s productivity” are a little fuzzy. Yes, at some point, activity will be so limited by resource depletion that those chickens will come home to roost. But that’s not now, and not for a little while yet.
    Meanwhile, we have the elites gorging themselves on cash, government directing resources to things like wars that are the opposite of productive, and giant corporations who sort of combine the two.
    In other words, we aren’t done quite yet. It only feels like it, because resources are directed in such an insane way. This is what the 99 percent movement’s really about. Any Econ 101 course starts with the statement “an economic system is simply a way of allocating finite resources in the face of infinite wants.” Trust me on this, from participating in things like Boys’ State in High School, and getting Bachelor’s and Master’s degrees with strong economics components, I’ve heard that lecture four or five times. The 99 percent of us (maybe even 99.9) who do productive work, or would really like to, and yet see our share dwindle year by year have picked up on the fact that the system is simply not working the way almost everybody would like. It worked fairly well in the US up until the late ’60s and early ’70s, when our economy did mostly productive work and there was enough work, rewarded close enough to fair. The FIRE economy that developed when productive activity ran short, spread around just enough to keep enough people happy. Now, the elites have given up on the pretense of spreading it around, and the only response available to people is protesting in the streets.
    Before we really, really run out of resources, we need to find some way to re-assess how we allocate those resources. Giving the most to those who juggle numbers, lie, cheat, and steal is obviously not working, especially when they feel no obligation to spread it around. We should tax that line of “work” into oblivion. The flip side of that is figuring out mechanisms to get fair rewards to ordinary people. Frankly, the incessant drive to efficiency means society really doesn’t actually need the number of employees that would make for a healthy economy, compensated by traditional means. There’s a lot that does need to be done, but many of those lines of work – small farmers are a great example – have been so devalued that nobody could survive that way. I don’t know what the solution is, and I doubt the 99 percent movement does either, but until more people assess the situation the way it actually works, we don’t have a prayer.

  62. Vlad Krandz May 7, 2012 at 12:45 pm #

    Equality? Can you explain that – since men aren’t born equal? And since it isn’t natural, Equality is something that must be imposed by force by people who are more equal than others.
    We await your explanation with bated breath.

  63. mistified May 7, 2012 at 12:48 pm #

    “Mr. Kunstler, you really need to work on understanding economics, monetary systems, and government finance the way you did urban planning. ”
    Q: How can one understand urban planning if they do not understand “economics, monetary systems, and government finance”?
    A: They cannot.

  64. k-dog May 7, 2012 at 12:49 pm #

    Don’t act so mystified. CCM989 made a lot of sense. In answer to your question they want you dead because if your not making money for them your taking money out of their pockets by being on the dole or having the audacity to get sick and burden the medical system. The uber rich only care about themselves and don’t give a shit about taking care of the planet or anyone else. Their attitude is that they can buy their way out of any predicament.

  65. ofthehands.com May 7, 2012 at 12:50 pm #

    Not to mention, K-Dog, it’s fundamental to the wealthy keeping their lives, if they should be lucky enough to do so. If we’re going to go through some serious nature-imposed austerity measures–which I think we are–then attempting to maintain the current levels of income inequality will inevitably lead to some serious French Revolution moments for the political and economic elites.
    You can only allow the general population to get so poor while pooh-poohing their concerns, completely oblivious to economic pain, before mobs start to form. We’re not there yet and it may yet take longer than many here expect, but it’ll happen if some of the people in power don’t eventually wake up to the dangerous game they’re playing.
    Joel

  66. metuselah May 7, 2012 at 12:52 pm #

    Top of the mornin to you too. Though you got to stop with the flatulence. Seriously.

  67. k-dog May 7, 2012 at 12:54 pm #

    You are right men are not born equal. Your existence proves it. If somebody could lift up the top of your skull and see what is inside they would turn to stone in revulsion. You can wait all day.

  68. mistified May 7, 2012 at 12:55 pm #

    “In answer to your question they want you dead because if your not making money for them your taking money out of their pockets by being on the dole or having the audacity to get sick and burden the medical system.”
    Not a problem. I still need to eat. I need clothes, shelter and healthcare… even if I produce nothing. Someone will pay for that whether I do or not. Those providing food, clothes shelter and healthcare will get their checks. Just not from me.

  69. Vlad Krandz May 7, 2012 at 1:03 pm #

    You think Mitt is a Nazi? And you think Obama is a Leftist Peacenik too, right? That’s why he ordered drone strikes within the first two weeks of his term. Obama continued all of Bush’s policies at home and abroad. Why not since he was funded by the same people…
    Someone isn’t getting it. You are very far out on the fringe here, Dee. Have you renounced your US Citizenship yet? Please do so without delay.

  70. azgog May 7, 2012 at 1:05 pm #

    Whoever said “Stupidity and Evil walk hand in hand” is correct and both seem to be ascendant right now. The obsession with celebrity life is a form of mental illness that involves living vicariously thru others and holding firm opinions about each one of them while ignoring your own situation and that of your country.
    The technology for running a perfect totalitarian regime has now been perfected (mostly by us). Track everyone by phone use, encourage them to reveal all personal data on “social” sites, deploy unmanned drones abroad and at home. Develop an internal quasi-military force to search them when they travel, suggest they turn each other in for suspicous behavior. Spend billions on surveillance cameras, jet boats and helicopters. Justify it all by calling it a war on terror and never admit there has been a noticeable lack of such plots, except for the ones we have dreamed up ourselves.
    All just in time for a new King to be “elected” based on going backwards to the “good old days”. Wait for this to be enforced by the new SS with American flags on their shoulders.

  71. metuselah May 7, 2012 at 1:05 pm #

    Equality? Can you explain that
    ==
    Yes. Equal opportunity to live in freedom, and not be subjected to your fascist vatican tyranny.

  72. Vlad Krandz May 7, 2012 at 1:05 pm #

    Again this too is classic Communism. Those who oppose the Revolution are sick and have to be shot in the head or put in Institutions – Camps or Mental Hospitals.
    Dude, you’re a cliche.

  73. Prelapsarian Press May 7, 2012 at 1:06 pm #

    Krugman is a cheerleader for the Obama administration? That would come as news to them. They consider him their chief antagonist on the left (though they don’t get around much in left precincts; if they did they would find many more severe critics).
    JHK says the US is out of money. Is he aware that this is a sovereign nation that can mint its own currency? It doesn’t need to go borrowing money, though it chooses to play in the absurd framework set up by the banksters. The austerians say the reason not to create more money is because it will be inflationary, but the danger currently, according to JHK, is a “vortex of massive deflation.” This despite endless warnings from the austerians over the past four years that inflation is imminent.
    Look at the US economy this way: Well over 25 percent of the population is unemployed or underemployed, and would like to work more. There are any number of big jobs that need doing, starting with infrastructure repair and new mass transportation. But the would-be workers can’t go forward with these projects for lack of something called money, which the US government can create as it sees fit. Something is very wrong with this picture.

  74. Rhino May 7, 2012 at 1:06 pm #

    Racism, fuckweed, is not civilized.
    The hate and malice that you propagate using shallow, simplistic stupidness as your tool is antithetical to civilization and civilized behavior.
    I note, fuckweed, that you sidestep various questions and challenges with a dreary repetition of the same old brain dead, decades old talking points. That’s all you offer. Stupidness as a tool does have its limitations doesn’t it?
    I’ve been hearing your brand of stupidness for SOOOO many years from people that ironically and invariably present themselves as cultured sophisticates. Generally unbearable and insufferable and not hard to see through. Have a great day fuckweed.

  75. Buck Stud May 7, 2012 at 1:08 pm #

    Kunstler doesn’t have the capability to go toe-to-toe with Krugman in a economics forum so he has to resort to lame silly-puddy “refutations” such as the following:

    What an excellent misrepresentation of reality by one of the official molders of public opinion and policy in this exceptional land. I would attempt to debate his statement above that spending less government money is proposed to encourage consumers, blah blah.

    Moreover, Krugman has been making inferences regarding a depression for a number of years now and it is not a “new thing for him to admit” as Kunstler asserts.
    But no matter, as long as bombastic buffoons and silly sycophants such as Ozone are waving the Clusterfuck pom-poms who really needs to give a shit about the facts.

  76. k-dog May 7, 2012 at 1:08 pm #

    The more equal a society is the happier it is and the more trust it has. This is not my opinion, it is a fact which has been born out by scientific studies. The essential cause of this demonstrable fact is that humans are the most social of all creatures and in a bad society we wither away and in a good society we flourish. To become a sustainable society in which we all benefit a drive for equality must be made. We are at this time in a situation which has parallels to the conditions in France at the time of their revolution. At that time overpopulation and economic conditions had created a miserable situation in which the established system which had been in place for a thousand years was unable to cope with. Instead of dealing with their problems the aristocracy attempted business as usual ignoring the peoples concerns. ‘Let them eat cake’ was not the answer and we know what happened when the people were ignored.

  77. Vlad Krandz May 7, 2012 at 1:10 pm #

    Say if you leveled everything and everyone as Kdog wants. Would it still be equal in 50 years? Or even 5? Some would blow everything in a heartbeat. Rodney King get a couple of million in a settlement. It was gone in a year. Someone else would make that last for the rest of their life, passing a hefty sum onto their children. A few could use that sum as a seed and multiply it many times.
    You said you did as much yourself. Would you really want the Kdogs of the world sniffing into your portfolio? Or stopping you from passing it onto your children as per the Communist Manifesto?

  78. k-dog May 7, 2012 at 1:18 pm #

    “leveled everything and everyone as Kdog wants”
    I NEVER SAID THAT AND THAT’S NOT WHAT I WANT !!!
    FOAD you FPOS.

  79. Vlad Krandz May 7, 2012 at 1:23 pm #

    So you think the French Revolution was great? And that it didn’t just form a new hierarchy? How not since Man is a Hierarchy creating being?
    After his parents, the King and Queen, had been executed, the last King of France was kept naked in a cold dark room. He was made to sing filthy songs about his parents. He finally died in torment. One of the Faithful kept his heart which was put to rest a few years ago by the Church.
    Keep talking – you reveal yourself more and more.
    This is not to say the poor had no just complaints or that the Aristocracy was wise in turning a deaf ear. Obviously not. But the Revolution itself was not the work of peasants with pitchforks. But in fact, it was organized at the highest levels by Intellectuals who were well funded. By whom? Lower level aritocrats who wanted to better themselves by becoming Capitalist Robber Barons as had happened in England. And they were probably being assisted with funding from the same in England. They would have set up a different kind of hierarchy – even as Marx himself admitted. The ultimate non hierarchical state is a chimera of course. It doesn’t accord with human nature. Women wont breed with Alan Aldas unless they’re Alan Alda – hypocrites in other words.

  80. Vlad Krandz May 7, 2012 at 1:26 pm #

    Don’t curse me because you failed to communicate clearly. What do you want then? You said you want “equality”. I did ask you to explain and you indignantly refused to do so.
    It’s time you published a prospectus or manifesto.

  81. k-dog May 7, 2012 at 1:29 pm #

    A lot of disgusting things happened at the time of the French revolution. You would have fit right in.

  82. Jimmy Drinkwater May 7, 2012 at 1:30 pm #

    Timely reality check this bit on Mondays JHK, sets my head straight to stay mindful of the folly I know I;ll encounter for the rest of the week.
    Maybe it’s my mood but uncommonly good comments thus far as well, the first 50 or so anyway, at least before they devolve into the usual cross-talk chat session.

  83. Rhino May 7, 2012 at 1:39 pm #

    I can’t speak for K-Dog but I’ll give it a shot. Put yourself in the shoes of a man who let’s say was born black in a society that is predominantly white, where mostly white people make the rules and hold the cards. If you were this black man would you want a fair chance at life in the country where you were born, where your ancestors had lived for centuries?
    For a moment put aside your notions about racial beauty, superiority/inferiority. What this is about is the individual, the single solitary man and his prospects in this society. You yourself said that individuals regardless of race vary widely in ability. Should this black man be given a chance to make his way on his own merits and be judged acoording to the contents of his character rather than the color of his skin (to rip off the words of a famous man)? Maybe this is where KDog is coming from with his notion of equality.
    Admit it Vlad when you look into the eyes of a black man, what you see looking back at you is a man.

  84. asoka. May 7, 2012 at 1:44 pm #

    Stupidness as a tool does have its limitations doesn’t it?

    ==============
    I HAVE NEVER SEEN STUPIDITY AS AN INSUPERABLE OBSTACLE. Through jujitsu (weaponless self-defense) I have used stupidity to my advantage for the last seven decades.
    I managed to survive in the stupid capitalist system I was born into without ever going on the public dole.
    I thrived in the stupid public education system by reading on my own and visiting public libraries often.
    I avoided the stupid USA military and did not allow them to “basic train” me into stupidly killing others.
    I refused to participate in the stupid consumerist society and became impervious to its stupid advertising strategies.
    I left the stupid church with its stupid strategies of fear and guilt, and at age 18 I discovered aids for spiritual growth in traditions the world over that serve me still today.
    I slipped out of the stupid non-sustainable, polluting, carbon-based agricultural system into a comfortable hammock to live a zero-emission permaculture lifestyle.
    I am happy. I guess stupidity is bliss.
    God bless, you Rhino, and thanks, once again, for your invitations which give me a platform to share my stupidity with others through . Keep ’em coming!

  85. k-dog May 7, 2012 at 1:46 pm #

    Taxing capital gains at a rate equal to income tax would be a good start. Tax rich people at a higher rate than the poor. Push for equality so as to establish a meritocracy. Impose tariffs to correct oversees job flight. Dissolve corporate charters of corporations which do not operate in the public good. Reward sustainable investment. Many passive controls exist to push for equality without resorting to ‘leveling’.
    As for publishing a prospectus or manifesto maybe I will maybe I won’t, but your not the boss of me. You have a way of thinking you can tell other people what to do which through the weeks and months I have come to find offensive. You seem to expect others to play fair when you have no intention of doing so.
    And now I’ve given you far to much of my time today.

  86. ASPO Article 1037 May 7, 2012 at 1:46 pm #

    Regarding the railway references:
    Some seeing JHK’s books and blog have noted the railway tool mentioned time after time.
    Specific railway corridors in operation need upgrading and added track capacity. Several hundred strategic (agricultural and essential manufacturing enroute) dormant rail branch lines must be returned to operating status ASAP.
    Certainly there are individuals, maybe students, maybe retired people with knowledge of rail corridor in their locale that would be needed if trucking falters. American Short Line Regional Railroad Association (ASLRRA) is the place to discuss particular corridors with aim of rehab.
    Recommissioned US Army/Guard rail logistics units are the -in extremis- assets needed to follow through with the railway upgrades required, on the scale needed. Local rail (regional) maps of US rail lines past & present can be obtained from spv.co.uk (Mike Walker).
    Mitt Romney is well aware of long-time LDS association with the Union Pacific; see “Under The Prophet In Utah” by Senator Frank J. Cannon. Romney might well be the US “Railway President” if only he can relate the Mormons Cache mentality with the need to rebuild America’s “Second Dimension Surface Transport Logistics Platform” -the railway matrix as seen in the first half of the 20th Century, when America was a lending not a borrowing nation, and energy independent… Warren, can you help the Mitt?

  87. asoka. May 7, 2012 at 1:47 pm #

    CORRECTION
    God bless you, Rhino, and thanks, once again, for your invitations. You give me a platform to share my stupidity with others. Keep ’em coming!

  88. k-dog May 7, 2012 at 1:50 pm #

    All men should be given a chance to make their way on their own merits and be judged acoording to the content of their character. We should be given the chance to work together and build a sustainable future. As things are now that chance is not an option.
    Thank you.

  89. metuselah May 7, 2012 at 1:54 pm #

    Say if you leveled everything and everyone as Kdog wants. Would it still be equal in 50 years?
    ==
    You’re conflating equality of opportunity to live free of slavery and tyranny with absolute equality which is absurd since we are all unique individuals.
    Btw, Vlad, I have an interesting anecdote for you:
    I was watching an Israeli game show the other day, called “1 vs 100”. The first contestant was a recent emigre to Israel. A blonde bombshell with legs to die for, money, and is a relative of the Clintons via Chelsea’s recent marriage. She started well, but in the end lost and left the game with nothing. The second contestant was a black Israeli sabra of Ethiopian decent. Needles to say, Dvora (the black girl’s name), did well and won the game by deciding that she doesn’t need to win a million and ended the game while she was ahead. Drova is engaged to a Swiss national and after the game will be flying to meet his family in Switzerland. Little Dvora did all this in one generation, coming from complete economic destitution. So no, we are not all created equal, but we all deserve equal opportunity to live life to its fullest.
    Here’s the link to that show episode:
    youtu.be/62honSlN54c

  90. Vlad Krandz May 7, 2012 at 1:54 pm #

    Do your neighbors know about how you feel about Zimmerman? And that you are a Black Supremacist?

  91. Vlad Krandz May 7, 2012 at 1:58 pm #

    The push for equality is destroying meritocracy via affirmative action. But I do think we should protect the middle class so perhaps we have that much in common. Not sure though since you refuse to talk about what you really believe. And then accuse me of being unfair for asking…

  92. k-dog May 7, 2012 at 2:01 pm #

    “You’re conflating equality of opportunity to live free of slavery and tyranny with absolute equality which is absurd since we are all unique individuals.”
    That’s exactly right.

  93. Vlad Krandz May 7, 2012 at 2:02 pm #

    Is there affirmative action? If not, I have no problem. You’re trying to make me sound like Kdog – the very person I’m trying to debate.
    As ever, you are a twister of words with an agenda you aren’t willing to admit.

  94. kulturcritic* May 7, 2012 at 2:02 pm #

    THIS IS HUGE JIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    kulturcritic.wordpress.com/posts/the-imperial-will-our-linguistic-straightjacket/
    kulturCritic

  95. Nikolaz May 7, 2012 at 2:02 pm #

    When your blog first introduced me to peak oil back in 2006 I was fascinated. Yesterday I read an article in Energy and Capital that said Saudi Arabia has failed to take up the slack of oil supply caused by Iran, and that they could well be net importers within the next few months! WTF?

  96. kulturcritic* May 7, 2012 at 2:04 pm #

    The politics are a true Clusterfuck now, globally. And just wait til the Crazy Christians have at it.
    kulturcritic.wordpress.com/posts/the-imperial-will-our-linguistic-straightjacket/
    kC

  97. Vlad Krandz May 7, 2012 at 2:05 pm #

    As long as you refuse to confront the Jews, the people wont trust you. Who controls Wall Street genius?
    Stalin grew tired of their plotting despite their huge role in the Revolution. He came to realize that they had done it as an act of revenge, not out of love for Justice or the People.

  98. mistified May 7, 2012 at 2:06 pm #

    “Tax rich people at a higher rate than the poor.”
    Why? If the rate is 10% of income, the “rich” will still pay more. Why must the rate be higher?

  99. kulturcritic* May 7, 2012 at 2:06 pm #

    Speaking of things heating up, did you see that the Japanese have turned off all the lights on nuclear plants.
    kulturcritic.wordpress.com/posts/the-imperial-will-our-linguistic-straightjacket/

  100. asoka. May 7, 2012 at 2:06 pm #

    All men should be given a chance to make their way on their own merits and be judged acoording to the content of their character. We should be given the chance to work together and build a sustainable future. As things are now that chance is not an option.
    C,mon, K-dog, cut the pessimism, and the sexism. “All men…” Women hold up half the sky.
    What is this “be given” stuff? As my boy scout troop leader said: “You get out of life what you put into it”
    We don’t need to “be given” a “chance.” We just make it happen. I was not given a chance. I was given a religious conditioning, a white racist social conditioning that told me I am stupid, a dysfunctional family conditioning, etc.
    It was evil conditioning, but I did not resist it. I just slipped out of it, with the help of Osho, using meditation to deprogram myself.
    I’m sure glad my cultural/ scientific / environmental / spiritual heroes, like Vandana Shiva, didn’t wait to “be given” a “chance.”
    thegreeninterview.com/vandana-shiva-bio
    Be the change you want to see. — Gandhi
    It is possible, even for the most downtrodden. And it sure beats complaining about stupidity.

  101. Rhino May 7, 2012 at 2:07 pm #

    Once again, fuckweed, you sidestep challenges and questions with more facile stupidness.
    I frankly don’t give a fuck about how you survived or didn’t survive in this capilalist system, I don’t give a fuck about your church or religiosity or lack thereof or your military record.
    What I give a fuck about is your distortions – using this well worn tool of simplistic stupidness – of the historical record, to spread hate.
    Give you a platform fuckweed? Didn’t it didn’t occur to you that YOU give ME a platform?
    And your prim and proper protestations about ad hominem attacks make me laugh. Lower YOUR standards? YOU? What standards?
    Do tell, we can’t wait.

  102. mistified May 7, 2012 at 2:08 pm #

    ” And just wait til the Crazy Christians have at it.”
    This of course as opposed to those rational Jihadists?

  103. kulturcritic* May 7, 2012 at 2:10 pm #

    And perhaps the Generals were not tuned in to Vova Putin’s remarks here in mother Russia today.
    kulturcritic.wordpress.com/posts/the-imperial-will-our-linguistic-straightjacket/

  104. mika. May 7, 2012 at 2:12 pm #

    Is there affirmative action?
    ==
    Yes, there is. The Ethiopian immigrants to Israel receive better subsidy terms from the Israeli government versus the Russian immigrants and others. Everyone agreed that that was best for all involved, given that the Ethiopians have to start from absolute zero.

  105. kulturcritic* May 7, 2012 at 2:12 pm #

    Mistified, I will trade you two crazy christians for one drunken jihadist. LOL

  106. mistified May 7, 2012 at 2:15 pm #

    jihadists don’t drink.

  107. Vlad Krandz May 7, 2012 at 2:15 pm #

    White Men have been ruthlessly persecuted for decades now. Affirmative Action is Tyranny. The Elite love it: divide and conquer. And not just race but “gender” as well. Norway mandates Corporation have at least 40% Female Exectutives.
    Communism just relaces one Elite with another. I prefer to be lead by Men of my own Race and Culture. Why you have a problem with this or don’t want it is the Mystery. Read Huxley’s “Brave New World” – that’s where we’re going unless Peak Oil stops us. Thank God for Peak Oil.
    Sweden allows women to decide intercourse was rape days after the fact. Also prostitution is legal – but not the purchase of it! All these policies keep men away from women and out of marriage – and thus lower the population. And the men who must marry, go to the third world to do so – thus weakening the White Race. All of this serves the Elite – as do sentimentalists like yourself. C’mon, talk about Nazis some more!

  108. Vlad Krandz May 7, 2012 at 2:20 pm #

    Ah, I called it last week then. Israel is a Western Nation going the way of the West.
    Jews love to talk about their contribution to Western Culture – and rightly btw. But they seldom contemplate how much we have changed them -both for the better but in this case, for the worse.
    When a Black achieves something, you credit him/her. When they screw up or beat someone up, you blame Whites or the environment – Whites again. All very familiar Mika – we’ve been on that hamster wheel for generations over here.

  109. budizwiser May 7, 2012 at 2:21 pm #

    Again – why does anyone discuss the “economy” without at least qualifying the other obvious aspects of our political system that make enormous centralized systems impossible to understand?
    How many of those posting here at Clusterfuck really think that anyone knows for sure just what the “economy” [whatever the fuck that means] is doing?
    Our government was never supposed to manage “jobs” or “growth.” What is was supposed to do was provide for the common welfare – which I suppose means keep markets free and commerce conducted honestly.
    Oh we had a workable system at one time – but after so much success we forgot to tune and adjust it for the times at hand. And everyone in power is making sure you never remember otherwise.

  110. Rhino May 7, 2012 at 2:22 pm #

    Women hold up half the sky. – Fuckweed
    Yes, fuckweed, we know. Stop distorting the clear meaning and intent of other people’s commentary. We know damn well where KDog was coming from. And so do you.

  111. asoka. May 7, 2012 at 2:29 pm #

    you sidestep challenges and questions with more facile stupidness
    Of course my stupidity is facile!
    Things are simple. Life is simple. There is no need to complicate life. It just flows along and it is so beautiful.
    Rhino, the world is as you are. It is complicated if you are complicated. It is very simple if you are simple. I speak from my own experience.
    In other words you are the world. Mind makes everything complicated. Even the simplest thing
    becomes complicated for the simple reason that mind’s function is to fight against complexities and win over lands which it itself has projected.
    But for the heart, everything is simple. It simply takes the world as it is. And if you go a little deeper, into your being, even the word “simplicity” is too complicated.
    Things are as they are. And in this experience existence becomes your home — not a struggle to solve problems, not a turmoil of emotions, but a place to rest and relax and let things be as they are.
    Thanks for giving me another opportunity to respond to your name calling, your insults, and your ad hominem attack, without lowering my standards, without responding in kind. Thanks for the platform you are giving me. I am large. I contain multitudes and embrace everything. God bless you, Rhino.

  112. asoka. May 7, 2012 at 2:36 pm #

    Oh we had a workable system at one time
    ===================
    Yes, I remember the 1950’s under Eisenhower.
    The system was working with a 92 percent marginal income tax rate for top earners and the country was not in debt.
    Now we have cut taxes on the rich. So, of course, the rich avoid paying taxes (like Romney hiding money offshore in the Cayman Islands and Switzerland).
    And now we have a huge national debt.

  113. Rhino May 7, 2012 at 2:40 pm #

    Vlad, As a teacher told us when I was a little feller, the individual life, in our tradition, is invaluable and irreplaceable. And she told us that to Big G the life of the ordinary man is as important as the life of the prince.
    So what the exercise is about in this society and in the western world in general is the value of the individual. Regardless of race. IMO that is. Lord knows, we’ve done this very badly. A lot of folks were severely crapped on, black people not least.
    I worry more about what’s in the person’s heart and mind. You say I’m sentimental. I don’t think so. I think Vlad that you’re not being fair or practical. As I said before, look into the eyes of a black man. What do you see?

  114. Vlad Krandz May 7, 2012 at 2:46 pm #

    So you reject Johnson’s Great Society and his call for Equality of Outcomes as opposed to Mika’s(!) call for Equality of Opporutunity?

  115. lsjogren May 7, 2012 at 2:48 pm #

    asoka:
    Your comment makes no sense. US govt spending is a bigger part of GDP than in the 50s. So obviously with higher tax rates then, there was way more tax avoidance than there is today. The system “worked” only in the sense that nearly anyone potentially subject to Draconian tax rates had plenty of loopholes to avoid them.

  116. asoka. May 7, 2012 at 2:48 pm #

    Eisenhower was last Republican President to preside over a balanced budget. He had a balanced budget in 1956 and 1957.
    We need to get back to the 92% marginal income tax rate for the 1%, really for anyone earning more than one million dollars a year. Cutting taxes on the rich has been a disaster. Trickle down never happened. More theft happened.
    The rich are not “job creators.” They are tax cheats, tax avoiders. Like Romney the rich are anti-American, shutting down factories and shipping them overseas, then keeping the profits protected off-shore in secret accounts.

  117. k-dog May 7, 2012 at 2:50 pm #

    So that society will be more equal and just. So that income disparity does not become so great that a small minority decides what is right for all. So that those not born into wealth and privilege have more of a chance to contribute their natural gifts to society. So that all members of society have longer lifespans and happier more meaningful lives. Because maturity understands the earth is a place of finite resources from which one can’t take from indiscriminately without consequences. Because we are our brothers keeper. Because those who are rich can afford it while others can’t. Because taxes on the poor impacts their ability to satisfy vital needs while taxes on the rich do not affect their ability to satisfy vital needs. So that the world can be made sustainable which under a system where there great economic disparity is impossible.
    Contrary to the contemporary value there is such a thing as having enough.

  118. Inquiring Mind May 7, 2012 at 2:54 pm #

    We’ve reached a juncture in American socio-economic-political history where insouciance is the necessary ingredient to ward off the debilitating mental states of fear, anxiety and pessimism.
    A good support for maintaing that insouciant or “devil may care” attitude would be a little farm with a well, some solar and wind energy sources, and the ability to produce a decent amount of meat, eggs and vegetable and fruit for personal consumption and sale. If you could form such a farmette with a group of people so you have a community, you’d have a better level of security and survival potential.
    They are going to destroy this economy and country. Prepare for the worst and hope for the best.

  119. k-dog May 7, 2012 at 2:54 pm #

    GFY Asoka, everyone who comes here frequently knows I hold women in equal esteem to men. When I say ‘men’ I include women. Your playing games as usual, just like your second self.

  120. Vlad Krandz May 7, 2012 at 2:57 pm #

    Yes Blacks are people, dumb people for the most part. Dumb entitled people who have been put over productive Whites by a vicious Elite. Dumb, Entitled people who have been taught by people like you that Whites have oppressed them and kept them from greatness. And the result? Growing mob violence against Whites. Thanks alot.
    Of course there are smart Blacks – and they support the oppression of Whites and are outraged their dispossesion is not being effected faster.
    These policies cannot stand. Yet you want to talk about Nazis and Fascists – which would have saved us from this horrible fate. Because however bad things are now, wait until Whites are minorities in their own former Nations if you want to see true terror. Can’t you see how crazy this all is? You see it in regards to White Liberals themselves, but not their policies in this area. Thus Conservatism is no cure: it merely fights against the results of SOME past Leftist victories. And endorses others. It was never intended to win. And as far as the destruction of the White Race: that is sacred; all Parties, Nations, and Religions are united in wanting this. Again Sweden – no Colonial Empire but they are second to none in desiring the destruction of their own people.

  121. Vlad Krandz May 7, 2012 at 3:00 pm #

    That you do that is just proof of your patriarchial nature. Your another one of those hippies who used to boss their girlfriends around.

  122. k-dog May 7, 2012 at 3:02 pm #

    LOL, I made my comment (above a couple or so) before I saw that you had done it for me. As you are 100% correct, thanks again.

  123. asoka. May 7, 2012 at 3:03 pm #

    I worry more about what’s in the person’s heart and mind.
    ============
    Rhino, you worry about what is in a person’s heart. You worry about what is in a person’s mind. You worry about stupidity. Do you believe worrying helps?
    You can stop worrying by just watching your mind, like your worries are clouds in the sky or traffic passing by. Not even a hammock is needed.
    What do you do when you stand by the side of the road waiting for a bus? You simply watch. The traffic goes on; you are not concerned. When you are not concerned, worries start dropping. Your concern gives them energy.
    But you cannot stop it. You can accept it, allow it, watch it, with a very indifferent, unconcerned look as if they don’t matter. And they are simply bubbles of thought; they really don’t matter. The more you become concerned with them, the more they matter. The more they matter, the more you become concerned. Now you create a vicious circle. Jump out of the circle.
    Don’t worry about stupidity or evil people. Be happy! It’s easy. It’s facile. It’s blissful.

  124. bproman May 7, 2012 at 3:05 pm #

    Free beer. Did I get your attention.

  125. k-dog May 7, 2012 at 3:08 pm #

    So that the world can be made sustainable which under a system where there isgreat economic disparity is impossible.

  126. Rhino May 7, 2012 at 3:10 pm #

    You did it again. Don’t think you’re being clever fuckweed. I’ve seen much smarter people than you you use this tool of facile stupidness.
    OK, fuckweed, once again, let’s get down to specifics. Life is simple is it? Then tell us fuckweed, I’ll give you the opportunity once again, to redeem yourself, to tell us what YOU would have done in Harry Truman’s shoes. Show to us how simple life really is.
    You know as well as all of us on this site that Truman had several courses of action open to him. Tell us fuckweed, which course of action he should have taken. And why. Examine the alternatives. Tell us the relative advantages/costs/benefits of each.
    Astonish us fuckweed, abandon the tired old ideological talking points, abandon the racist hate mongering and think outside the box.
    I’ll be fair. Do a good job, render a fair and well considered judgement, take proper account of historical circumstances and I’ll give credit where credit is due. But do otherwise and give us more of the same old racist asswipery and I’ll treat it as the asswipery that it is.
    You say the white race is morally depraved for having unleashed nukes?
    OK fuckweed here’s another exercise, had the Japanese beat the US to the punch in developing a nuclear device are you prepared to argue, that by virtue of the Japanese not being members of the white race and therefore as a consequence in your view, morally superior, that they would not have deployed the weapon? Tell us fuckweed, tell us why. Tell us the Japanese are morally superior. By virtue of their being non white. Will you give us more racist fuckweedery? I can’t wait to hear this.
    Oh, one other thing. Your wounded cries of protest about being insulted, coming from a writer of racist screed, is vomitory.

  127. asoka. May 7, 2012 at 3:13 pm #

    I love playing games. Dogs also love playing games. There is nothing wrong with game-playing. But let’s include everyone in our word games.
    As a presidential candidate, who claims to want to represent ALL the people, you should support not only a gender-equal but a gender-neutral society.
    Government and society should tolerate no distinctions at all between the sexes. This means on the narrow level that society should show sensitivity to people who don’t identify themselves as either male or female, including allowing any type of couple to marry.
    K-dog, you should support a society that entirely erases traditional gender roles and stereotypes at even the most mundane levels.
    Woof! K-dog, let’s play ball and include everyone with our choice of gender-neutral vocabulary.
    It matters to those being hurt. In fact, I would suggest that BY LAW, since women are 51% of the population, a representative democracy would require any governing body to have 51% or more women representatives. It’s only fair.

  128. Rhino May 7, 2012 at 3:21 pm #

    Tell you what fuckweed, save your pseudo spiritualism for another site. Nobody’s buying it. Coming from a writer of racist rants it comes across as fakery and even more hypocritical and vomitory than your whining about personal attacks. And besides I have no fucking idea what you’re babbling about and I don’t care and I doubt anyone else does either.

  129. Rhino May 7, 2012 at 3:25 pm #

    I gave you a chance to redeem your sorry ass fuckweed. So quit wasting time. The clock is ticking and we don’t have all fucking day….

  130. asoka. May 7, 2012 at 3:33 pm #

    LOL! I see you are going back to your hypothetical comedy routine where you pose hypothetical questions about alternative histories… in which no one can possibly know what would have transpired.

    had the Japanese beat the US to the punch in developing a nuclear device are you prepared to argue, that by virtue of the Japanese not being members of the white race and therefore as a consequence in your view, morally superior, that they would not have deployed the weapon?

    I gave you a detailed answer last week, which you apparently did not read. Now you jump to conclusions.
    I have never said non-white races are morally superior. I have made a simple statement of historical fact that the only race to have shown itself morally depraved by dropping nuclear weapons is the white race.
    If tomorrow the Japanese or Pakistanis or Israelis or anyone else uses a nuclear weapon on an urban civilian population center, I will immediately qualify them as morally depraved, even if they don’t then repeat the morally depraved act three days later.
    So far, only white Christians have shown their willingness to use nuclear weapons and revealed their moral depravity.

  131. Rick May 7, 2012 at 3:34 pm #

    Krugman is a joke, to say the least. He’s now saying we’re in a Depression. Duh!. But, like always, he’s still wrong.
    Krugman and others like him always miss the big picture. Which is resource depletion. Or aka The Long Emergency. We are not going to return to endless growth, no country is. And the sooner we realize, there’s no growth to be had, when you have resource depletion, the better off we’ll be. Growth was a stupid notion anyway. For what, so we can rape the planet, and continue our stupid consumerism? I’m glad it’s coming to an end.

  132. asoka. May 7, 2012 at 3:35 pm #

    I don’t care and I doubt anyone else does either.
    =============
    Ah, but you do care. And every week you invite me to play rhetorical games with you. It is fun. Don’t worry about others. You and I are enjoying ourselves.

  133. mistified May 7, 2012 at 3:36 pm #

    “(like Romney hiding money offshore in the Cayman Islands and Switzerland)”
    So Romney “hides” his money? And asoka knows all about it? Sure.

  134. Inquiring Mind May 7, 2012 at 3:41 pm #

    LORD! Instead of an intellectual exchange of ideas and solutions this blog appears to be a cesspool of ego versus ego, insults, one-upmanship, sophmoric vulgarity and so on. Sooooo non- and counter-productive.
    Too bad there isn’t a moderator on this blog to remove all of this low to no value communication.
    This is the perfect microcosm of the macrocosm.
    Looking at how many of the people on this blog are responding towards and treating each other, and the subject matter discussed, is it any wonder why are world is falling apart?
    To paraphrase Ghandi… if you want change and a better world the change needs to begin with you.
    Clean up your act, clean up your language, develop some character, develop some respect for your fellow man and woman, be civil and well mannered and strive to set a good example… all this will lead to positive contribution and a blog we could all benefit from.

  135. mistified May 7, 2012 at 3:44 pm #

    “Clean up your act..”
    This from “Stinky Pants”? Please.

  136. burtfarms1 May 7, 2012 at 3:48 pm #

    I’m sorry folks, but I obviously don’t know shit. In my wildest dreams I never pictured this charade lasting as long as it has. The Sugar Daddy’s keep handing oujt the goodies and the party never ends. Unbelievable. Jim, I love ya man, but do you think it’s time we doomers throw in the towel, because this sham will not end in our lifetime. Fucking unbelievable.

  137. slothrop33 May 7, 2012 at 3:51 pm #

    His point is that they cannot devalue their currency to get out of this mess, dipshit. Slashing gov spending, aka laying people off from gov jobs, is not going to contribute to recovery. NOTE HOW THIS IS NOT WORKING. Maybe they should follow your incredible advice of regressing to a medieval mercantile economy…

  138. asoka. May 7, 2012 at 3:58 pm #

    Thanks, mistified, for your reply. Everything that happens within his own campaign appears to come as a surprise to Mitt Romney. A little boy asked Romney at one of his rallies, what a ‘President Romney’ was going to do to save that child’s future. Romney had no clear answer.
    Nor did he when asked by a man in attendance about discrepancies in his tax record. Romney’s been eying-up the presidency for what seems like decades, and now he’s the presumptive nominee. Somehow he still doesn’t know where all his money is hidden and in what offshore bank accounts.
    His ducks are not in a row.
    Of course he really does know where his money is, but you’d have thought with the amount of forewarning and trial runs, he’d have cleaned-up his financial house, at least by way of public perception — but he hasn’t really done so to anyone’s satisfaction.
    Mitt’s own father when running for president insisted that every candidate should disclose a full decade’s worth of tax and financial records. George Romney’s son, Mitt, however hasn’t and can’t…
    In fact offshore bank accounts is just about the full depth and breath of Mitt Romney’s understanding of foreign ‘policies.’ It has been Mitt’s ‘policy’ to squirrel-away millions and millions of dollars in foreign banks far away from his homeland where the money might do his own country some good. Mitt has an estimated 32 million in blind-trusts abroad and no one is clear whether or not that includes holdings in wife, Ann’s name. That’s Romney foreign policy number one.
    Romney foreign policy number two is leveraging American companies into bankruptcy after selling all their assets once the value of the company has been keenly inflated, thus shafting purchasers and investors. Then next step is to take the money and run while outsourcing the remaining American jobs overseas. Not necessarily against the law, but skeevy and unethical. While America is watching record growth in the corporate sector, average American lives are leaner than ever. Why? Their jobs are overseas, they’ve been robbed blind by corporate “people, my friend” and yet, Mitt wonders why there’s only 1500 people at one of his speeches and 15,000 attend one of Obama’s. People know instinctively that Mitt Romney is not one of them. Romney has had a long time to practice “looking” presidential and he still doesn’t have it down quite right. He’s like an actor auditioning to play the role of a made-for TV president who looks great in a suit, but can’t wrap his mind around his lines or the part he’s expected to play.
    Bearing in mind that a president is a president both at home and abroad, the third and most comical of Mitt’s foreign affairs resume is being a Mormon missionary in France during his youth. That’s bound to be a ‘hit’ with France’s new socialist government. Mitt Romney is a man who’s lived his entire life in a bell-jar. We can see him, but he’s not breathing the same air as the rest of us.

  139. Barter4Booze May 7, 2012 at 3:59 pm #

    “I would say that we are instead out on the arid buzzard flats beside the deep blue sea where modernity is shortly to drown itself in a fugue of suicidal bad faith.”
    Or, you could also say that you has seen the beady black-eyed buzzard o’ death a hoverin’ ’round yr. Uncle Sam who keeps a waitin’ fer an air-conditioned Hummer to drag his sorry ass outta trouble, not knowin’ yet that it ain’t never gonna come. SON!

  140. Inquiring Mind May 7, 2012 at 3:59 pm #

    Exactly what I mean. Petty, meaningless responses, adversarial at all times, no interest in the concept or actual communication or intention… just criticism and one-upmanship.
    As if a silly name or handle has anything to do with anything.
    I know this is hopeless. I’ll not be returning to this blog commentary area again.
    You win. Enjoy.

  141. ront May 7, 2012 at 4:04 pm #

    I just watched this and had to share it. The honesty here will help recognized the “hairball [is] composed of filaments of lies.”
    youtube.com/watch?v=EUS1m5MSt9k&feature=player_embedded

  142. anti soak May 7, 2012 at 4:08 pm #

    Found this online, I forget where:
    YOU SNOOZE, YOU LOSE
    In April, a research ship will begin surveying the Atlantic Ocean floor off of Nova Scotia as the first step to building, by 2013, a $300 million private fiber-optic line connecting New York and London financial markets so as to speed up current transmission times — by about five milliseconds. Those five milliseconds, though (according to an April report in Bloomberg Business Week), will enable the small group of firms that are underwriting the project (and who will have exclusive use of it) to earn millions of dollars per transaction by having their trade sales arrive five milliseconds before their competitors’ !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  143. mika. May 7, 2012 at 4:10 pm #

    Yes Blacks are people, dumb people for the most part. Dumb entitled people who have been put over productive Whites by a vicious Elite. Dumb, Entitled people who have been taught by people like you that Whites have oppressed them and kept them from greatness. And the result? Growing mob violence against Whites. Thanks alot
    ==
    Vlad, I want you watch that video. I want you look at Dvora. You might not understand what is being said, but you will understand her eyes. You will understand why she volunteers her time to be with and help the elderly. And why the elderly whom she bakes for, and bakes with, are so eager to introduce her to their grand kids to her. If this can happen in Israel under all our extreme stresses, it can happen everywhere.

  144. Tark May 7, 2012 at 4:17 pm #

    France is one of the European nations that is done for as is. They are socialist to the core, just short of communist in their thinking. They’ll cling to that even if it does harm to the other aspects of their culture they hold(I thought)in high regard.
    They’ll continue to wreck their economy and give out more and more handouts; most will go to Muslims and other Third World immigrants, not aid to people who deserve it. As long as Frenchmen get those benefits they selfishly grub,they aren’t so concerned about where the rest of it goes, and the consequences of that.
    Then, the extremist Muslims will take the opportunity in the future to take areas of France, especially Paris, for their own. There will be a Muslim state in Europe. I doubt most of the French will fight back much, similar to WW2.
    France first. Then the U.K. The rest may be able to hold it off.

  145. asoka. May 7, 2012 at 5:02 pm #

    Tark said: “[France is] socialist to the core, just short of communist in their thinking.”
    ===============
    Tark, they should become communists. Communism is winning. Capitalism is losing, as in 1, 2, 3, Puke.
    Look at the world’s leading economy. Communist Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao announced a lower growth target of 7.5% for 2012 during the recent Communist Party National People’s Congress. The Communist Party runs Communist China, taking advantage of “western greed for profit” to build Communist China.
    The IMF’s figure for Communist China’s 2012 growth is 8.2% and the World Bank’s forecast for Communist China’s 2012 growth is 8.4%, figures which still constitute the highest growth rate in the world, surpassing all capitalist economies.
    I think France should abandon socialism and embrace communism. Communism is the future.

  146. Vlad Krandz May 7, 2012 at 5:16 pm #

    So what? As if countless Whites don’t do things like that too – far more than Blacks do. She might be a bit better btw – they don’t consider themselves Blacks and many of them are at least partially something else. Selasie got off the plane in Jamaica – a small thin man with Caucasian features and brown skin. The Rastafarians wouldn’t greet or bow down to the God they had been waiting for. They expected a huge Black God with a flat nose etc. It was a White Devil Trick!
    If you want to insult her, call her a Negro and see how she reacts. It must kill you to see her marrying a Swiss Devil Dog. Look Mika, lots of guys get jungle fever. You seem to have reved it up into a romantic thing…You don’t have to believe everything your mind tells you. I was once very attracted by an Ethiope or Somali who was working behind a counter. Not only was she beautiful, but I could tell she was very well brought up – not like the sluts and bored fashionistas who infest our Western Cities like New York, London, Jerusalem, etc.

  147. asoka. May 7, 2012 at 5:27 pm #

    Tark said: “There will be a Muslim state in Europe.”
    ==================
    Duh. Of course there will be. Islam is the world’s leading religion. Get with the program because we aren’t going to fight the Crusades all over again.
    And it won’t be the first time for a Muslim state in Europe. There are Muslim states in Europe now.
    Spain has a long history with Muslims (710 to 1492), and learned much from Muslim scholarship. Germany will undoubtedly become a Muslim state also.
    Free your mind from anti-Muslim propaganda and anti-immigrant brainwashing.
    Whether a state is Christian or Muslim or Hindu, it is not the end of the world. Chill out, bro. Islam means peace. Asalaam walekum.

  148. progress2conserve May 7, 2012 at 5:33 pm #

    test

  149. xhalor May 7, 2012 at 5:41 pm #

    Sometimes the SphincterNet makes the mistake of showing us what we’re capable of. When I see these moments, I feel compelled to share them with you swarthy heathens. Don’t ask me why. Mostly you’re NOT WORTHY. Please enjoy, I’m going somewhere to cry.
    youtube.com/watch?v=iGq26M08ZpI

  150. asoka. May 7, 2012 at 5:48 pm #

    Tark, the lesson we should take away from Sarkozy’s loss is to welcome immigrants and learn to live together in peace, as Muslims, Christians, and Jews did in Spain.
    Sarkozy lost the election because he refused to accept multiculturalism. He said there are too many “foreigners” (he meant immigrants) in France, that police should have greater leeway to shoot fleeing suspects, that the anti-immigrant far right are upstanding citizens. He even talked about “people who look Muslim.”
    The world is on notice. Multiculturalism is a reality, our reality, and is here to stay. Any politician who is racist and anti-immigrant, or even appears to be so, will not last long in office before being voted out.

  151. insufferable May 7, 2012 at 5:52 pm #

    Dear Met,
    You forgot the ever ready to detain and demean….THE TSA. This is the closest thing we have to the Gestapo. People complain and nothing ever changes.
    You are so right.

  152. asoka. May 7, 2012 at 5:59 pm #

    Thanks, xhalor. Did you know KD Lang is also known for being a vegan, as well as an animal rights, gay rights, and Tibetan human rights activist. She is a tantric practitioner of the old school of Tibetan Buddhism. Thanks for sharing the video.

  153. xhalor May 7, 2012 at 6:01 pm #

    “The world is on notice. Multiculturalism is a reality, our reality, and is here to stay.”
    HOWEVER
    Your religion, and everyone else’s is, has been, and will always be
    BULLSHIT
    Thinking of You,
    Mohammar Khadaffy Duck

  154. xhalor May 7, 2012 at 6:09 pm #

    P.S.
    There will be no fuckin’ reconcilliation.

  155. Schwerpunkt May 7, 2012 at 6:15 pm #

    I have been reading the JHK blog and comments but have stayed out of the fray for some time just being a wallflower (trollflower?).
    I must say the quality of conversation ebbs and flows, but always brings me back as does JHK’s doom. Now, I do agree that his doomcasts(tm) are off, but then, I used to read the WSJ, FTL, et. al. and they’re positivecasts were also off, if not intentionally misleading. Other than selling a few books, I don’t think JHK has much to gain from misleading folks and certainly his being “right” or “wrong” (or the reader/commentator for that matter) keep me tuning in despite that I work increasingly long hours for the same (read with inflation as less) money. Bethatasitmay, I don’t expect that the chatter and clatter here will be different next week, however, chew on this walnut we all must and keep it dooming.
    My own rants have not been linked here in some time so forgive me….
    schwerpunkter.wordpress.com/

  156. Vlad Krandz May 7, 2012 at 6:17 pm #

    Professor recalls last open Weathermen meeting where they called for the killing of all White Babies.
    counter-currents.com/2012/05/the-ethics-of-killing-all-white-babies/#more-26511

  157. xhalor May 7, 2012 at 6:19 pm #

    …huh?
    We like to joust.

  158. asoka. May 7, 2012 at 6:27 pm #

    The hateful anti-immigrant, anti-Latino and anti-Muslim rhetoric of Rick Santorum, Newt Gingrich and Mitt Romney promotes paranoia for political gain. Just be aware of the manipulation … through inducement of fear.
    Their ignorance is dangerous. They, and many Republicans, talk about a monolithic Muslim Caliphate menace. (WTF!?!) There is no monolithic Islam. There is a small extremist group called Al Qaeda Al-Qaeda that says re-establishing the Caliphate is one of its primary objectives. About as scary as Christian fundamentalists saying all gays should repent and become Christians or they will be kidnapped and “reprogrammed” … and about as likely to happen.
    And it’s not just ignorance of Islam. Mitt Romney called Russia the “number one geopolitical foe” of the United States. President Dmitry Medvedev reminded Romney that the Cold War has been over for a while, suggested that he has seen too many Hollywood movies.
    Romney’s anti-Islam, anti-Russia, anti-immigrant words are hateful, violent and his beliefs are contradictory to the values of the American Republic.

  159. Ixnei May 7, 2012 at 6:49 pm #

    Wow, just wow – where to begin. It appears that within the first 4 hours of this poast, we now have a good half-dozen or so new aliases – most claiming expertise while displaying incoherence/ignorance. Someone’s hard at work (too bad this board doesn’t display the poaster’s IP address – tho that is also easily remedied via proxy).
    For the past couple weeks, I’ve been pondering that old adage we were taught as children (usually when we grew depressed about the reality we saw surrounding us). It went something like, “Live every day as if it were your last.” Such shortsightedness and gluttony certainly seems to illustrate exactly how we’ve managed to be corralled into our current situation.
    I swear, that third Ozone poast sounded like my own! ‘Cept I don’t refer to *them* as “gum’mint toadies” – but rather as, “6 figure salaried government stalkers,” or *6-fig-govt-stalkaz* for short! ;)~ Don’t sell those Pentagon/Triple-Letter-Acronym boys short, either – once they’re in, they’re pretty much in for the long haul, and accountable to no one but themselves. There was a reason Eisenhower called them the military-industrial complex. But hey, what’s $1.4 trillion/year (+- $200 billion) amongst *friends*?!?
    Oh, and for the record, I was craving an omelette the past couple days, so I will be making one today with salmon and cheese (mayhaps onions/mushrooms also)…
    “GET YOUR FILTHY HANDS OFF MY DESERT!!!”
    youtube.com/watch?v=VKqCknCOllg

  160. Widespreadpanic7 May 7, 2012 at 6:55 pm #

    It looks like them Europeans don’t want nothin’ to do with no stinkin Austerity. Keep the Largesse rolling in! The Krauts will cover the bill!!
    –WSP7

  161. Widespreadpanic7 May 7, 2012 at 7:03 pm #

    Plus maybe they can score some swag from the suckers at the World Bank and IMF.
    –WSP7

  162. asoka. May 7, 2012 at 7:05 pm #

    Hey, WSP7, do you still believe in the confidence fairy? Newsflash: the confidence fairy doesn’t exist — that is, claims that slashing government spending would somehow encourage consumers and businesses to spend more have been overwhelmingly refuted by the experience of the past two years.
    So spending cuts in a depressed economy just make the depression deeper.
    Moreover, there seems to be little if any gain in return for the pain. Consider the case of Ireland, which has been a good soldier in this crisis, imposing ever-harsher austerity in an attempt to win back the favor of the bond markets.
    According to the prevailing orthodoxy, this should work. In fact, the will to believe is so strong that members of Europe’s policy elite keep proclaiming that Irish austerity has indeed worked, that the Irish economy has begun to recover.
    But it hasn’t. And although you’d never know it from much of the press coverage, Irish borrowing costs remain much higher than those of Spain or Italy, let alone Germany.
    As a counterpoint to Ireland’s sad story, consider the case of Iceland, which was ground zero for the financial crisis but was able to respond by devaluing its currency, the krona (and also had the courage to let its banks fail and default on their debts).
    Sure enough, Iceland is experiencing the recovery Ireland was supposed to have, but hasn’t.
    There is a way out — and the Germans have shown how that way can work. Unfortunately, they don’t understand the lessons of their own experience.
    Talk to German opinion leaders about the euro crisis, and they like to point out that their own economy was in the doldrums in the early years of the last decade but managed to recover.
    What they don’t like to acknowledge is that this recovery was driven by the emergence of a huge German trade surplus vis-a-vis other European countries — in particular, vis-a-vis the nations now in crisis — which were booming, and experiencing above-normal inflation, thanks to low interest rates.
    So Germany’s experience isn’t, as the Germans imagine, an argument for unilateral austerity in Southern Europe; it’s an argument for much more expansionary policies elsewhere, and in particular for the European Central Bank to drop its obsession with inflation and focus on growth.
    The Germans, needless to say, don’t like this conclusion, nor does the leadership of the central bank. They will cling to their fantasies of prosperity through pain and will insist that continuing with their failed strategy is the only responsible thing to do.
    But it seems that they will no longer have unquestioning support from the Elysee Palace. And that, believe it or not, means that both the euro and the European project now have a better chance of surviving than they did a few days ago.

  163. Buck Stud May 7, 2012 at 7:14 pm #

    Absolutely outstanding post, Asoka!
    Good to see that at least one poster (there are more to be sure) hasn’t capitulated to the cliched, and formulaic semantics of Doomerspeak.
    Question: How many “doomers” can fit “through the bottleneck” ?

  164. bobby j May 7, 2012 at 7:21 pm #

    Our pioneer ancestors in a real sense were rugged individualists, but at the same were in a very real sense integrated in their co-operative ,sharing community. It made absolute sense to work co-operatively;as they say many hands makes the work easier.Once we could harness extraneous energy to do our work ,society changed.The benefits of replacing manpower and horsepower ,brought on the industrial age. The whole thing was expanding to fill the wants of a hungy nation.Fortunes were made and with cheap energy and abundant resources the masses joined the party of conspicuous consumption.We did have a war ie the one after the Great War a war in which we made and blew up a lot of stuff ,came out a winner and stronger than ever after that economic downturn called the great depression.Away we went again bigger than ever ,we still had lots of cheap oil and everyone needed a car and pretty soon two or three.Somehow we have given up the idea of perpetual motion but we still adhere to the concept of perpetual growth. Common sense would question such a perpetual growth assumption ,but it seems self evident that economists are beyond this reality and live in a world of their own creation in which if you create enough debt ie. money out of the ether the game or as some would say racket can go on forever. Next time you see a meeting of the elite banksters instead of seeing them pulling up in their limousines and dressed in their finest tuxes imagine them roaring up on hogs and dressed as an outlaw biker gang

  165. xhalor May 7, 2012 at 7:32 pm #

    “Question: How many “doomers” can fit “through the bottleneck” ?”
    ANSWER: The Schwartzwald is dying.

  166. richardbelldc May 7, 2012 at 7:35 pm #

    U.S. history suggests that you are probably wrong to believe that U.S. troops will not fire upon their fellow Americans. (“If you think good ol’ home grown boys will fire on their neighbors I believe you to be mistaken.”)
    Take the last time that millions of Americans were riled up enough to take to the streets in threatening numbers, the movement to stop the war in Vietnam. In 1970, the government did not hesitate to put troops with live ammunition onto the campuses of places like Kent State and Jackson State. And on those two campuses, whoever was directing those troops did not hesitate to order them to fire that live ammunition at students. It is criminal that we do not know to this day exactly who gave these orders, much less that those responsible completely escaped prosecution and prison.
    It may be that the coming civil unrest will have a much broader social/economic base than the anti-war movement did, making it more likely that the troops might feel more empathy for the people they are being asked to attack. But our armed forces today have no draftees; economic desperation drives young people into the services. Watching the videos of highly militarized police officers attacking nonviolent, seated protestors with pepper spray does not inspire confidence in our troops refusing to obey orders to shoot to kill.

  167. xhalor May 7, 2012 at 7:41 pm #

    God do I love the way you fuckos gloss over USA military technology. Where in the fuck do you think all that unaccounted for money goes?
    Hmmm…let me see. Do I want bronze swords or steel swords?

  168. IxNoMor May 7, 2012 at 7:42 pm #

    “Live every day as if it were your last.”
    Rather than demonstrate the irony of all the obvious sock puppets on-board today, incessantly flame-bait trolling themselves ad nauseum, I will instead posit some new ethos of resource depletion/economic contraction, which will be required in the coming days:
    “Why do today, what you can put off until tomorrow.”
    “Laziness is next to Godliness.”
    “Bullsh!t talks, money walks…”

  169. bubbleheadMarc May 7, 2012 at 7:44 pm #

    Thanks for the response. I see your point. On the other hand it is possible to write about anything. But then why choose that if there is something more interesting? Everyone in Cleveland was laughing about it but then those people are also from Cleveland.

  170. xhalor May 7, 2012 at 7:48 pm #

    “”Laziness is next to Godliness.”
    You actually had to say it?
    Do me a favor. Turn up the TV on yer way out, huh?

  171. progress2conserve May 7, 2012 at 8:16 pm #

    “test”
    Well, I’ll be. I’m not banned.
    I like you, JHK. You’re a tough-minded SOB, and you’re a writer. And apparently, you’re somewhat open minded and tolerant of different viewpoints. Which is more than I can say of some of your coreligionists, whom I have encountered on CFN.
    Anyway, nice weeks work. And thanks to you as always.
    And you are consistently and uniquely creative, JHK. Consider the following:
    “The illusion of remaining airborne may dissolve now with the Hollandaise denunciation of Franco-German team spirit …”
    -jhk-
    Got’ Da’ Mighty, boy, you linked current events, French President Francois Hollande, and one of my favorite sauces. How do you do stuff like this, week after week?
    I never would have thought to do that in a month of straining over a keyboard. Which could be why you are a writer with a internationally followed blog and website – and I am a poster to that website.
    Keep up the good work.
    PS. Get rid of the goddam’ Chinese spammer – without banning a bunch of other posters – and maybe semi-intelligent commentary to this webspace will pick back up.

  172. metuselah May 7, 2012 at 8:32 pm #

    My god! First post of the week and the hissing lying snake is already lying and hissing, trying to spread his shameless lies. Snake, which coreligionists called to have you banned?

  173. anti soak May 7, 2012 at 8:33 pm #

    You know, with the Birthrate of Whites in France
    [Quite low, but not the lowest on Earth] The Black Muslims may inherit the place.
    Most newborns in Paree are Black.

  174. anti soak May 7, 2012 at 8:45 pm #

    Is Kruggie like Greenspan etc, Suits that are paid to lie?

  175. progress2conserve May 7, 2012 at 8:46 pm #

    Jeeze – as I read my way up from the bottom – this comment thread took a nasty downturn unusually quickly this week.
    And KultureCritic felt led to link to his own blog, not once, not twice, not three times, but FOUR TIMES.
    We get it, KC, you like free advertising.
    Give it a rest, next week.
    =======================
    You know, KC, you called me a “MORON,” or something similar, several months ago – apparently because of my views over immigration.
    I gave you the benefit of the doubt, and said that your screenname may have been hacked.
    But you never even had the guts, or the attention span, to follow up with me that Monday. People run to patterns, so I’m sure you won’t follow up this time either.
    You Freeloading Horse’s ASS!!!!!!!!!!!!
    (tm K/Q, who we miss)
    (ps, if you follow up with me this week – I’ll retract the above insult.)
    Won’t hold my breath on that one, though.
    And I hold grudges for a long, long time.
    Ozone said it was a Southern thing, long ago.
    Conquered people, and all that, you know.

  176. progress2conserve May 7, 2012 at 8:48 pm #

    learn to read

  177. metuselah May 7, 2012 at 8:50 pm #

    I can read just fine, snake. Why all the talk about being banned?

  178. cowswithguns May 7, 2012 at 9:05 pm #

    I wonder how President Mitt Romney is going to handle things if they get out of hand. Being an elite and Bishop in the Mormon Church, he’ll likely figure things out in closed rooms open only to old white men of certain breeding who hold certain religious beliefs.
    Those LDS member are a tight-knit bunch.
    Kiss your democracy goodbye when Mitt takes the helm.

  179. asoka. May 7, 2012 at 9:08 pm #

    Muslims may inherit the place.
    ==================
    They would have to kick out the socialists.
    You favor the socialists?
    Muslims, Christians, Hindus, what difference does it make since none of them are political parties that govern states.
    The Apostle’s Creed is for Christians.
    Sharia law is for Muslims
    Etc. (so relax, please)
    Why all this fear mongering about Muslims?
    Muslims are good peace-loving people. I know that because I have experience with Muslims in Muslim lands, both sharia and sunni. I have lived with muslim families. I have traveled with Muslims on trains. I have prayed with Muslims. I have danced zikr with Muslims. They are not monolithic. They are not scary.

  180. Neon Vincent May 7, 2012 at 9:08 pm #

    “”We have systems too large to understand – let alone describe or control with any real expertise.”
    I see you read John Robb, too. That’s what was in his latest blog post on Resilient Communities this morning.

  181. xhalor May 7, 2012 at 9:09 pm #

    “Why all the talk about being banned?”
    Damn. I haven’t been to a good banning in a long time. You’re a witch! BURN!
    youtube.com/watch?v=Z61tlxcqaVE

  182. mika. May 7, 2012 at 9:31 pm #

    From Hell With Love:
    youtu.be/c7vavQvZIsM

  183. progress2conserve May 7, 2012 at 9:41 pm #

    “The hate and malice that you propagate using shallow, simplistic stupidness as your tool is antithetical to civilization and civilized “behavior.” -rhino, to asoka.-
    Very well said, Rhino! I am very glad you are here, on this comment thread. Asoka is a racist, top to bottom. Far too many posters give him some sort of strangely Politically Correct Pass, because asoka consistently proclaims the “Right Kind of Racism.”
    Selective and Politically Correct Racism is not a habit of mind that will ever lead civilization to a good place. “A spring is being wound,” as Fred says.
    fredoneverything.net/Zimmerman.shtml
    ====================================
    Having said all of that, I freely acknowledge that you, Rhino, have “had my back” in a couple of CFN kerfuffles, so far. I appreciate that very much, and I hope I have returned the favor, a few times, already. I will defend you.*
    But, I’m not afraid to criticize the words of those I defend*. (although some on CFN are.)
    So here goes with some constructive criticism:
    It has become my practice, to not drag last weeks events into the new CFN week, until at least a day or two has elapsed. I may hint at something, if I’m really pissed – but I try to stop there.
    In a nutshell, my feeling is that JHK labors hard on his week’s work, he needs to sell some books and speeches. Those of us who are his regular posters owe him the courtesy of shutting up, and letting the week unfold for a few hours – on a Monday.
    And I’ve learned, especially with asoka., the longer we can keep our True Declared Racists lurking, and not posting – the better the new week will go.
    Furthermore, IMO, gratuitous cursing – howevermuch it may seem to be deserved – makes it look like your ideas may be weak, which they are not, Rhino.
    And who would have thought that “fuckweed” would look bad, on a Cluster Fucked Nation?
    Go figure, heh?
    “*defend”
    I will not defend you “to the death,” however, Rhino.
    Who would make a pledge like that on the open internet, to someone they had never???**
    ======================
    **Bill, Mika, Buck – eventually I’ll let this drop, or stop posting here, or get banned.
    I will never forget it, though.

  184. xhalor May 7, 2012 at 9:45 pm #

    So, not only is the time right for kickin’ the Iranians ass (USA!USA!) in the annual spring tennis classic, but it is also time for the Air Shows. I had three Mitchell B-25’s low fly my ass now for two days running. All you Jimmy Doolittle wannabees…B-17’s, B-24’s, P-47’s, P-51’s…(sigh)
    Like sex without touching The Pussy.
    Get yer ass at Attention,
    Gen. Curtis LeMay

  185. mika. May 7, 2012 at 9:57 pm #

    Snake, I doubt anyone here would be stupid enough to trust you with anything. Not even your hissing sock-puppet(s) is that stupid. You’ve shown yourself to be of completely worthless character. Over and over and over again.

  186. Headless May 7, 2012 at 10:15 pm #

    “Also, by the way, I would wonder what the generals over in the Pentagon will think (or might do!) as they see their country fall to tatters.”
    Been pondering the same think myself for quite a while, and I think you are correct–if I read you right: There Will Be…a Coop. Rationally, there is no reason NOT to do it (even right now!), and it might even be a practical necessity just to appease the masses amassing for the most violent of revolutions yet known to Man.

  187. mika. May 7, 2012 at 10:18 pm #

    Good essay on our global economic predicament:
    Global Reality:
    Surplus of Labor, Scarcity of Paid Work
    goo.gl/3foIn
    oftwominds-Charles Hugh Smith

  188. progress2conserve May 7, 2012 at 10:19 pm #

    Ozone,
    Parallel conversations, man.
    What do you want to say.
    You lead, I’ll follow.
    OK, I’ll lead, you follow.
    On sustainability and survival strategies –
    Two stories, then I’m going to quit for the night and let the dust settle.
    Story one – I have enough stored pinto beans and black beans – purchased from a Mormon “Cannery*” to last my little extended family for a couple of hungry, pissed-off months – in case TS ever HTF in my little region of paradise.
    I planted a row each of pintos and blacks (the beans, people – the BEANS!), as an experiment.
    Both varieties sprouted quickly.
    Both are growing nicely.
    Both are about to set flowers.
    So – – If we can make a couple of hungry months, then get to warm weather and then be able to grow something, we might just make it here. Maybe.
    Story two – I have told CFN before that I have to keep a large outside dog, and a medium sized outside cat – to keep the bears, raccoons, deer, rabbits, and other varmints – with two feet or four – off of my place and out of my orchard and garden.
    Several posters have questioned the sustainability of feeding dogs and cats, post collapse.
    Well, I’ve been eying the local squirrel population. The dog and cat keep them back in the woods – but barely. There are hundreds of squirrels out there, all looking hungry.
    I hope it’s a good year for acorns.
    Alfred Hitchcock could have filmed “The Squirrels,” at my place.
    =========================
    Now, a buddy of mine was a real “city slicker,” when he moved into the mountains a few counties up above me – a couple of years ago.
    His wife likes to feed birds.
    Squirrels were killing her birds.
    He asked for my help.
    I checked him out on a .22 rifle.
    Turns out this city boy is a natural with a rifle. Maybe it’s another Southern thing.
    To date, he has killed 153 squirrels.
    So, I know how to feed my cat and dog sustainably, if and when TSH that fan.
    And I’ve decided I won’t ever plan to cross my friend – especially if he’s holding a .22.
    *Mormon Cannery –
    Dry stored food, in huge cans –
    Cheap, Cheap, Cheap
    Lasts in storage for 30 years +
    Get some.
    The Pharoah did.
    It helped Joseph.
    What goes around, comes around.

  189. jomendi May 7, 2012 at 10:41 pm #

    Jim,
    Your posts sound more and more like a freshman trying to impress the TA in creative writing 101…trash the Roget’s and cut way way down on the adjectives…you may have a future in advertizing if you play your cards right….

  190. Tark May 7, 2012 at 10:50 pm #

    It’s really as simple as this Mika and Asoka: I’m American but I genuinely place value on what’s left of the old European cultures. All the societies that make up what can be thought of as one civilization, in a sense, should be preserved if at all possible. Whatever grudges and resentments people hold against Western civilization shouldn’t be the reason that it’s left to die, or forced to die, by some.
    I like France, in this case, to be France and French, not some weird misfit hybrid. And if any ethnic group and religion is seeking the hijacking of France, it’s Muslims. It’s really the main reason they emigrate to Europe as a whole. They may not all blow people up, but they are very ambitious.
    Or to put it even more simply, if I’m ever able to travel to Paris, I would prefer not to see Notre Dame surrounded by minarets, or the Eiffel Tower with a loudspeaker on it calling all the fanatics to prayer.
    If all cultures are equal, in relativists’ terms, then they can stay home and enjoy a culture that’s already suited to them, and improve their lives…there.

  191. Tark May 7, 2012 at 10:55 pm #

    BTW, try telling people in Greece they should keep their immigration doors wide open. I don’t think they believe in those arguments anymore. 😉

  192. mika. May 7, 2012 at 11:03 pm #

    We are entering a new age, Tark. The age of exploitation/centralization/feudalism is coming to an end. If these are the characteristics you associate with Western Civilization, then say your goodbyes. That shit has run its course.

  193. Tark May 7, 2012 at 11:05 pm #

    China is barely Communist anymore. They’ve had success because they adopted a degree of Capitalist practices.
    These days they are more like really vicious authoritarians and becoming imperialistic. I thought you and Mika would despise something like that…

  194. Tark May 7, 2012 at 11:15 pm #

    Those are the ones you associate with the West.
    Progress, individuality, freedom of, AND from, religion and what used to be a fair rule of law based on rational thinking… all of those among many other things. Other traits of the West I could mention that mean a lot more to me in personal ways. Mostly things that only white people possess as a rule.
    If you think 21st century Islam will uphold most of those, you’re out of your mind.

  195. Shakazulu May 7, 2012 at 11:17 pm #

    “When the clown cars pull into the political conventions this summer, I would like to see these circus troupes greeted by large and lively mobs of furious citizens”
    Someone else finally admits that politics is nothing but a circus show! Glad to hear such reality coming from the illustrious JHK. In fact that final paragraph is packed with reality.
    As for enjoying the European sideshow, I believe I know less about what is REALLY happening over there than I know about what goes on in the mind of a Kardashian. All I can do is try to put the pieces of that puzzle together using the meager bits and pieces of actual fact I see in the media. Not that I really care about Europe, as it might as well be the land of Kardashians for all I care. It’s America I’m worried about.
    If Europe goes belly up, then I think America is next on the default hit list. Ever since I started reading up on real financial news I’ve been spending money like a drunken sailor. What’s the point of holding onto it, when it’s worthless anyway? It’s the knowledge of what my fiat currency is worth that keeps me from going over the edge when I have to pay $4 for a gallon of gas! Enjoy the show!

  196. Shakazulu May 7, 2012 at 11:24 pm #

    “To date, he has killed 153 squirrels”
    Must be open season all year round, no limit. And if you run out of squirrel to eat, you can cook the pets.

  197. mika. May 7, 2012 at 11:25 pm #

    If you think 21st century Islam will uphold most of those, you’re out of your mind.
    ==
    Why would say such to me? I’m an anti-theist, and many times I made it clear that I consider Islam and Islamists to be little more than tools of Vatican barbarism. Islam and Islamists are completely devoid of any virtue. They are retrograde ignorance and genocide spelled large.

  198. mika. May 7, 2012 at 11:26 pm #

    Progress, individuality, freedom of, AND from, religion and what used to be a fair rule of law based on rational thinking
    ==
    These are nice propaganda slogans. They have little to do with reality.

  199. mika. May 7, 2012 at 11:28 pm #

    Why would ^you say such..

  200. Tark May 7, 2012 at 11:36 pm #

    I haven’t commented here for long and I’m beginning to think Mika is a puppet or troll myself.
    An Israeli? atheistic communist? A Boris from Bullwinkle..in the Mossad?

  201. mika. May 7, 2012 at 11:41 pm #

    Nice try, snake. Do try again.

  202. asoka. May 7, 2012 at 11:48 pm #

    I will never forget it, though.
    ================
    You tell us that you hold a grudge for a long time. Now you tell use you will “never forget” … your mind must be full if you never let go of imagined slights.
    BeantownBill did not do anything to you, yet you pillory him week after week, and now you inform us you will hold a grudge against him forever.
    I have no enemies. I even pray for those who persecute me and are spiteful toward me. Though you may consider me your enemy, I will continue to consider you a part of my tribe: the human race. My heart is full of love for all.
    Seems it is important for you to divide people up into friends and enemies and you feel a need to be loyal to friends and be vengeful, spiteful, and vindictive toward enemies or people you feel you cannot trust.
    I pity you and pray for your soul.

  203. Just Say No May 8, 2012 at 12:00 am #

    “Everyone is going broke simultaneously, including putative lenders, i.e. buyers of bonds, who are the same ones selling them.”
    A few large corporations are doing just fine. Apple is not only debt free, growing, and highly profitable, it is accumulating obscene amounts of cash (around $100B so far). Exxon Mobile,Wal-Mart, Microsoft, IBM, Intel, Google, and others aren’t far behind. Wal-Mart’s sales are larger than the GDP of many countries. If they was a country, it would easily be among China’s top 10 trading partners.
    Remember the TBTF banks? They’re bigger than ever now, more than big enough to again hold the world economies hostage.
    If this trend continues and there isn’t a revolution of the masses, it’s just a matter of time until these mega corporations and banks control most of the world’s resources and governments.

  204. Kyooshtik May 8, 2012 at 12:03 am #

    Absolutely outstanding post, Asoka!
    ============
    Wake up at the switch Buck, the entire post was an unattributed cut and paste job from Krugman’s Op-Ed piece in today’s NYT.
    Obviously you believe in the “wisdom” of creating money out of thin air as a way to steal from those that have via inflation as Krugman does since, it goes without saying, that what the haves “have” was ill-gotten.
    “Credit” for Asoka’s post belongs entirely to Krugman.

  205. asoka. May 8, 2012 at 12:04 am #

    Tark, you say “they are very ambitious” and this is a good thing given how positive Islamic values are. It’s good to be ambitious when it comes to promoting Islamic values like prayer, fasting, charity, modesty, being kind to others, gaining knowledge, etc. because all of these are designed to build healthy individuals and a healthy society.
    Don’t let the actions of a few Muslim extremists form your attitude toward Islam. Once you get to know Islam, and become friends with Muslims, you will find they share the same concerns you do about things like raising children, education, and social issues. They are, just as we are, also facing the Long Emergency. We need to all learn to live together. United we stand. Divided we fall.

  206. asoka. May 8, 2012 at 12:14 am #

    Here is a link to today’s Krugman post, so everyone can see my post is not a “unattributed cut and paste job from today’s Krugman’s Op-Ed”.
    krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/05/07/pain-without-gain/
    Shame on you, Kyooshtik.
    It was an unattributed cut and paste from yesterday’s Krugman piece. Though even that is not true. I did not “cut and paste” all of it. I edited Krugman and made it my own, and tailored it to fit both the topic being discussed and space concerns for CFN.
    Get your facts straight, man, before you go falsely criticizing someone.

  207. xhalor May 8, 2012 at 12:43 am #

    “Good thing I drink or I’d have to take it up.”
    SHANE SEZ
    “Go ahead, punk. Pick up the gun…”

  208. asoka. May 8, 2012 at 12:45 am #

    Obama Grows a Spine

    A GOP budget plan adopted in March cuts $19 billion below the $1.047 trillion agency budget cap agreed to last year and transfers an additional $8 billion to the Pentagon. The resulting $27 billion cut to domestic agencies has Democrats howling that GOP leaders are breaking a deal they agreed to less than a year ago. … The White House has taken a blanket stand that Obama won’t sign any spending bills until Republican leaders agree to abide by the deal struck last summer.

    — Q, fetch the attribution!
    Government will continue to shrink if Obama vetoes all spending bills.
    But I’m pretty sure the Republicans will cave on this and honor the deal they made last year.

  209. Tark May 8, 2012 at 1:00 am #

    Thanks for talking to me like I’m simpleminded, lol. Seems like you took a quote from Sesame Street. I guess I’ll have to learn how to comment without putting so much feeling behind my posts. It must make me sound naive.

  210. Bustin J May 8, 2012 at 1:12 am #

    Asojka said “The world is on notice. Multiculturalism is a reality, our reality, and is here to stay. Any politician who is racist and anti-immigrant, or even appears to be so, will not last long in office before being voted out.”
    I think people who think like that will be frozen out of the political system.
    Who are you going to vote for next election, buddy?
    The guy kicking 400k out a year? Or the other guy who will likely also kick out 400k a year?
    For all the talk of race on this board its something 10% or less of the people who participate in elections of simply exist in general.
    You’re right about multiculturalism, we’ve achieved it. That achievement doesn’t mean we should turn America into the world’s refugee camp. Its not good for the world or us.
    The new reality, that isn’t going away is the realization that all people do is destroy the world and are expensive to support without a reduction of living standards globally.
    Zero Population and then negative population growth is a great thing and a worthy goal.

  211. asoka. May 8, 2012 at 1:17 am #

    China is barely Communist anymore. They’ve had success because they adopted a degree of Capitalist practices.
    China is communist controlled and the Chinese communists have strategically used capitalist greed to build their infrastructure, build their military, and build their budget surplus. At any point in the future they can appropriate/ nationalize the factories that have been built there.
    Read the Constitution of the People’s Republic of China (do not fetch attribution, Q-dog!):
    The living standards of the people have improved considerably. Both the victory of China’s new-democratic revolution and the successes of its socialist cause have been achieved by the Chinese people of all nationalities under the leadership of the Communist Party of China and the guidance of Marxism-Leninism and Mao Zedong Thought.
    Article 7. The state economy is the sector of socialist economy under ownership by the whole people; it is the leading force in the national economy. The state ensures the consolidation and growth of the state economy.

  212. Bustin J May 8, 2012 at 1:20 am #

    I think if you’re going to cache Mormon food, you might as well be a Mormon.
    On Mika’s 450 million bullets purchased by DSHS, that is a solid investment, bro.
    Guns are jobs. All we need to do is raise the age of conscription to 65 and add in all the faggots, bitches, and kids with asthma.
    Lets raise a civilian Army staffed with real logistics and go kick Kony’s ass out of the Congo.
    Why aren’t we bombing Sudan?
    Mexico has a lot of potential. The USA needs to take control of Mexico again. There, I said it. Anyone who thinks different is an idiot. They can’t run their own country. Its dissolving into gang war. Thats a travesty for such a beautiful country.
    Canada is way, way, way better than us and thats good because the USA needs an example, a baseline, a comparison.
    The per capita GDP of America if it had the population of Canada would be astronomical.

  213. asoka. May 8, 2012 at 1:33 am #

    Who are you going to vote for next election, buddy? The guy kicking 400k out a year? Or the other guy who will likely also kick out 400k a year?

    What are you talking about, BustinJ? Get your facts straight.
    Mitt Romney released his 2010 tax return. His total income for the year was listed as $21.6 million, more than one-half of which came from capital gains.
    Obama’s 2010 tax return reported $1,795,614 of total income, which consists mostly of his salary as president ($395,188) and proceeds from the sale of his books ($1,382,889).
    The Bidens reported total income of $379,178 on their 2010 tax return, which consists mostly of the vice president’s salary of $255,888 and Jill Biden’s salary as a college teacher of $82,488.
    So, it is not two guys equally earning $400,000 a year. And the vice-president doesn’t even make $400,000. Here are incomes listed on their 2010 IRS tax returns:
    $21.6 million for the Romneys
    $1.8 million for the Obamas
    $379,000 for the Bidens

  214. asoka. May 8, 2012 at 1:37 am #

    You want to take over Mexico? Then every elementary grade school kid should have to learn Spanish before moving on to middle school. The Mexicans already have English in their curriculum.

  215. Bustin J May 8, 2012 at 1:38 am #

    Mitt Romney 2012

  216. asoka. May 8, 2012 at 2:09 am #

    Crowd Boos Romney
    Do you remember what’s on page 169 of your income tax return? Neither does Mitt Romney.
    At a town hall-style meeting Monday in Cleveland, the GOP presidential candidate got this pointed question about his investments: In this age of tough foreign competition, could Romney explain the “over $1.5 million in foreign tax credits” he received since 2000?
    “I’m not familiar with that,” Romney told the man who asked. The crowd booed. “I didn’t think I paid any foreign income taxes, but I’ll be happy to take a look at it.”
    In fact, Romney and his wife, Ann, paid more than $1.2 million in foreign taxes and paid about $800,000 in taxes on general income to unspecified countries. That’s according to the couple’s own tax returns.
    Romney has not officially been chosen. Ron Paul is mounting a successful insurgency, including Paul operatives getting picked as “Romney” delegates, except they may not vote for Romney.
    In other words, many of the supposed Romney delegates are not really Romney delegates.

  217. Puzzler May 8, 2012 at 2:37 am #

    Asoka is stealing again. He cuts and pastes other’s words and passes it off as his own.
    Google any paragraph and you get 394 sources with the same exact wording.

  218. asoka. May 8, 2012 at 2:41 am #

    Stealing? “Google any paragraph”
    OK…

    Romney has not officially been chosen. Ron Paul is mounting a successful insurgency, including Paul operatives getting picked as “Romney” delegates, except they may not vote for Romney.

    Go ahead, Google it.
    How many hits did you get?

  219. asoka. May 8, 2012 at 2:51 am #

    Puzzler is stealing again. I just Googled this sentence from Puzzler’s post:
    He cuts and pastes other’s words and passes it off as his own.
    About 15,300,000 results (0.31 seconds)
    Shameful.
    Actually, it is a game to try to get Google to return just 1 result, and not easy to do. 394 people have already copied me since I posted.

  220. Bill Simpson May 8, 2012 at 3:12 am #

    Businessman Romney will straighten everything out. He is not worried about the poor, or anyone else.
    As far as the generals, they are well paid behind their desks awaiting their fat pensions and possible entry into the bosom of the MIC at the ripe old age of 46. No revolution there.
    And the US government has the legal authority to create an infinite amount of dollars out of thin air without borrowing them from anyone. As long as it is a platinum coin, it is legal for any amount of US dollars the Treasury says. I think the law was passed during the Nixon administration after the USA abandoned the gold standard. The system will do whatever it needs to do to survive, while keeping the super rich comfortable. They own both political parties.

  221. asoka. May 8, 2012 at 3:47 am #

    Businessman Romney will straighten everything out.
    ================
    LOL!
    The Constitution does not say the purpose of government is to have the country maximize profit. If that were the case, then we would need a businessman.
    The Constitution (article 1 section 8) says government is to: provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States
    Running a country is very different from running a business enterprise. Romney has inadequate qualifications because he is so far removed from common citizens.

  222. 9o1a3c573re May 8, 2012 at 4:19 am #

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  223. Eleuthero May 8, 2012 at 6:20 am #

    Yes, the dissolution of CFN is proceding apace. Even Vlad appears to have stepped out of today’s festivities. I’ve often wondered why guys like KulturCritic got a free pass to advertise their own websites.
    Ironically, the abundance of “doom sites” like this one, KulturCritic’s, and Leibowitz Society (also advertised early in the week on a weekly basis) indicate that the doom business is a “low barrier to entry” business and, alas, quite effete.
    Fred Reed got there first and I don’t think the ruling elite or the titans of industry regard any of these self-institutionalized kvetchers as more than a gnat in their ear. There’s no real UNITY in the doom biz so it’s like a lot of island universes trying to use their literary pizzazz mostly to compete against each other. Are they really concerned about doom or whether they can turn a phrase better than fellow doomers so that they get free plane rides to deliver papers in minor bookstores in Portland?.
    The uniting theme in the REAL world of doom is SELF INTEREST. After all, career doomsters have to make a buck, too. Jim’s carbon footprint to “get the message out” is huge given the plethora of plane flights he takes per year. Fifteen plane flights per year to deliver the Peak Oil message is like fucking to support virginity.
    Carry on.
    E.

  224. Widespreadpanic7 May 8, 2012 at 7:26 am #

    So now our agent provocatuer ‘Asoka’ is inveighing against the West from his undisclosed base in ‘Latin America’. Once again its Latin America. That’s OK, because I’m typing this sh-t out right now from the planet Jupiter. And, oh yea, I’m a black Muslim-Communist-War Resister-multiculturalist-anything else that might piss people off, just like Asoka.
    Talking head on CNBC, oil company executive, discussing collapse in crude oil prices, stated this morning, without mentioning the words ‘peak oil’, that the world ‘production ceiling’ seems to be about 86 million liquid barrels per day, and we haven’t been able to rise above that despite our best efforts.
    –WSP7

  225. progress2conserve May 8, 2012 at 8:10 am #

    “….right now from the planet Jupiter. And, oh yea, I’m a black Muslim-Communist-War Resister-multiculturalist-anything else that might piss people off, just like Asoka.”
    -wsp7-
    God’al’mighty, Widespread – you almost made me spit hot coffee on my new keyboard!
    It’s true, though.
    =============================
    I’ve been looking into the concept of “confirmation bias.” Everyone suffers from it, to one extent or another. Some of our posters have a galloping case of it – and don’t have a clue that they have ever been wrong about anything.
    To err is human, people.

  226. mika. May 8, 2012 at 8:31 am #

    Shouldn’t you be over at David Duke’s blog with the rest of your Master Race, telling them this good news? Why are you still here, week after week after week after week? Go away already.

  227. progress2conserve May 8, 2012 at 8:35 am #

    “Must be open season all year round, no limit. And if you run out of squirrel to eat, you can cook the pets.” -shakaZ, on my buddy’s 153 killed rodents-
    Yeah, Shaka – you’d have to see where each of us lives to understand completely. LOTS of woods behind each of our houses. My woods are 5,000 acres of highly erodible National Forest. His are 1,000 acres of highly erodible private land that was being developed as an upscale subdivision when the bubble burst – one positive from the popping of the RE bubble.
    So – lots of hungry squirrels, always stalking our “crops.” I don’t have to shoot mine so far, the dog and cat keep them in abeyance.
    You can (as far as I know) still get a nuisance animal permit in Georgia that allows you to shoot animals as large as deer, year round IF they are doing bona fide damage to food crops.
    I don’t know if my friend has one of those.
    I doubt he could qualify.
    But squirrels do breed like rats – which they are, of course, with cute furry tails.
    ========================
    And yeah, on eating the pets –
    My current dog is a rescue, pick up from a “pro-kill” animal shelter. He was about due for the needle, when I picked him out.
    I had him in the cab of my truck, driving him home for the first time. 10 miles of twisting mountain roads. I was talking in a soothing voice the whole way, just making human noise, you know – a one way conversation to keep him calm.
    So, I ran out of small talk and started describing his new life for him:
    “You get to go on walks in the woods every day.”
    “You get a great bed to sleep in.”
    “Of course, you know you’re gonna get neutered.”
    “And I expect you to happily die, defending my family and property, if you need to.”
    Apparently, he understood English better than I thought, and got a little stressed at the information I was sharing with him.
    Because he looked into my eyes with that trusting canine look that said, “OK, boss, if you say so….”
    And then he hurled about two pounds of partially digested, nasty, dog pound food –
    right into my lap.
    Maybe I should learn not to be so honest.
    hah!

  228. budizwiser May 8, 2012 at 9:25 am #

    Confirmation bias – boo hah, sounds as goofy as affordable health care…….. besides that –
    I’ve been suffering from delusions all my life.
    I noted early on that it was all downhill as soon as they took away my diapers.
    However, I took to the written word as a pre-schooler and have found comfort in that we, or at least “I” can sit on the shoulders of giants and learn the knowledge they have accumulated without the discomfort and terror of their experience.
    And so it is in reading Cf Nation, one is sure to come away with dirty hands and a slight stench from much of the wasted, petty efforts. Yet amongst the barn yard of free speech there is always some fodder worth ruminating, some kernels of truth to ponder, some reason to keeping on.
    Good day, and good clusterfucking to all.

  229. Spudzlarkin May 8, 2012 at 10:33 am #

    Real news on the BBC. Iran is selling oil for Yuan.
    bbc.co.uk/news/business-17988142
    There is a believable theory that one of the main reasons, if not the sole reason, Iraq was attacked was because Iraq sold oil for Euros, not dollars.
    The US dollar went into freefall.
    Holy exploding underpants, nous sommes tous fuque.

  230. Rhino May 8, 2012 at 10:38 am #

    Thankyou for your kind words and advice.
    Put it this way, using a distasteful appellation like “fuckweed” was meant as a full force declaration of contempt for the sewage in his posts.
    People that know me will generally say I’m overly patient, that I suffer fools inordinately. Good hearted, well meaning fools I’ll suffer.
    Besides the overt racism there’s other things in his commentary like the air of falsity, mendacity, malice, hate, dishonesty in the way he distorts the obvious intended meaning of other commenters.
    If this was one voice in the wilderness spewing bilge that would be one thing but the ideas that he promotes have a wide audience and acceptance among people that ought to know better, people that are pissing away a torrent of this society’s and other society’s resources in transmitting supposed knowledge.
    And to what end? Not to build civilization but its opposite, to denigrate people, to sow division, to propagate nonsense, to falsify history.
    OK the name calling is tacky and because you find it disturbing, for you ProCon, because I respect what you say and the spirit in which you say it, then I’ll cease and desist. As for my ideas, if they look weak, people can attack them all they like and I’ll defend them to the best of my ability or learn something and concede defeat.

  231. Rhino May 8, 2012 at 11:04 am #

    I read your answers. You never answered the question I put to you. You sidestepped it. I suspect it’s because you have no answers.
    All you do is blindly conform to the party line devised decades ago by others. You blindly condemn the actions of others that found themselves in terrible circumstances. And you have nothing constructive to say, nothing new to add, no creative lines of thought, no new approaches.

  232. anti soak May 8, 2012 at 11:28 am #

    Yes, the dissolution of CFN is proceding apace.
    Yes,and theres nothing I can do about it!

  233. asoka. May 8, 2012 at 11:29 am #

    Rhino, you are accusing me of all kinds of things for which you must have consulted a thesaurus. You are behind the times. The new meme on CFN is that all Asoka does is steal and cut and paste, so fetch attribution and take it up with the original authors. I am glad you apologized for name calling.

  234. Rhino May 8, 2012 at 11:40 am #

    Yes Blacks are people, – Vlad
    This is a start, an acknowledgement of a common humanity.
    The individual Vlad, the individual, the individual. America is all about the individual. And you can’t go prejudging and condemning an individual because of his skin. You just can’t. It’s unjust, it’s unfair. You know this in your bones, you call yourself a Christian do you not and it’s an offshoot from the Christian idea of treating others as you want to be treated. Basic simple compassion. As you said Blacks are people. This conflict between this idea of basic justice for each and every person and the treatment accorded Black people has been front and center in the public realm in the US for a long long time.
    Societal dysfunction is nothing new in humanity and nobody that I know is arguing that there’s not a lot of real dysfuntion in certain segments of black American society.
    So what to do about it? I don’t know. Maybe there’s nothing to be done, maybe bad habits get culled naturally over time because they’re bad and people come to recognize it. You act like an asshole, you hurt people and you go to jail. It takes time for some ideas to permeate but sooner or later they do.
    You say that Black people are dumb people for the most part. I don’t think so. Black people, as far as I can see, punch far, far above their demographic weight in American culture. They’re a small segment of the overall American population yet their music took America and the world by storm. Not a small accomplishment. Yet they lag in other areas. I acknowledge that too. Other ethnic groups also lag the mainstream, not only Blacks. Sooner or later I predict that as the memory of the bad times for Blacks recede, the bitterness and division subside and they will catch up. You watch.

  235. mika. May 8, 2012 at 12:16 pm #

    Now why do you suppose our white snake from Georgia could not say the same already a year or two ago? What is it do you suppose that our white snake from Georgia knows about blacks that you don’t?

  236. Vlad Krandz May 8, 2012 at 12:32 pm #

    Yes, the Music. As Plato said, you can’t change the music of a civilization without changing the civilization. Our Masters knew what they were about when they promulgated Rock for the People. And once made passionate and scattered by that, Rap, Punk, Hip Hop, Heavy Metal to complete their corruption. And Rap and Hip Hop are by far the biggest.
    Know I ax you, what kind of Civilization can be created (or maintained) by people who listen to this kind of crap.
    You amaze me with your willful supericiality. And you don’t answer my questions any more than Asoka answers your’s. Such as how you can support an Elite who plan to turn Europe over to the Muslims and America over to the Mexicans. How can you laud their victory in WW2? The British Veterans are wiser: countless WW2 vets have said they wouldn’t have lifted a finger if they knew this is what the Elite had in mind.

  237. Vlad Krandz May 8, 2012 at 12:39 pm #

    Yeah and Homo Erectus was “people” too. Their brain was little more than half the size of our’s but since they were in the Homo line (as opposed to the Australopithecus), there is no doubt that we could have bred with them.
    Blacks are people too – an earlier cruder version of Homo Sapiens. They have some physical refinements that we don’t have that lead to athletic prowess. But as far as Intellect – nada. To breed with them is to breed down and create a lasting legacy of poverty and crime.

  238. Rhino May 8, 2012 at 12:39 pm #

    …Nazis and Fascists – which would have saved us from this horrible fate… Vlad
    Nazis, fascists and communists put western civilization on its deathbed. They inflicted this horrible fate. They took a continent with a long history of civilizational progress and achievement, killed its best and brightest, reduced it to ashes and left it a demoralized graveyard.
    Yes, western and European civilization “recovered” in a sense. It repaired the physical damage. Life, after a fashion, went on. Life was “good”. Most people had more than enough food, they went to cafes, they enjoyed the cinema. But, even after the demise of the Soviet Empire, the west never recovered its belief in itself.
    And this collective self doubt, the shock and dismay at what had been done took root in the US. After the Great Depression and WW2 the US, which was the last hope, lost its will to live. Among the glittering American elite it became fashionable to adopt a sneering anti-establishment pose even when they WERE the establishment. It became de rigueur to reflexively deplore their own country.
    And I blame the nazis the fascists and the communists for all of this. There’s no justification for what they did. Murderers all.

  239. Kyooshtik May 8, 2012 at 12:39 pm #

    The Constitution (article 1 section 8) says government is to: provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States
    ===========
    Note that the wording of ^art 1 sec 8^ is slightly different than the Preamble to the Constitution which says provide for the common Defence and promote the general Welfare
    …and that one word makes all the difference.
    Note also these interpretive comments on the subject appearing in Wikipedia:

    General Welfare Clause
    to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States;
    Of all the limitations upon the power to tax and spend, the General Welfare Clause appears to have achieved notoriety as one of the most contentious. The dispute over the clause arises from two distinct disagreements. The first concerns whether the General Welfare Clause grants an independent spending power or is a restriction upon the taxing power. The second disagreement pertains to what exactly is meant by the phrase “general welfare.”

    Confusion about the meaning of “promote the general Welfare” lies at the heart of whether we are or should be a socialist nation.

  240. Vlad Krandz May 8, 2012 at 12:46 pm #

    A total misunderstanding of history: they were fighting the SAME people who are killing us now: the International Bankers. And also fighting the degenerate culture they so love to foist upon the People in the arts, media, “lifestyle” etc.
    Weimer Germany was a cesspool of pornography and prostitution. Hitler looked into it and what did he find? Yes, the Jews. Modern America is too – and who are the biggest group in this multi-billion dollar industry? Yes, the Jews. And they control the Media and Hollywood as well. Rhino, you are a Republican Historian in Name Only. Read Pat Buchanon’s books and get a clue.

  241. lsjogren May 8, 2012 at 12:56 pm #

    “I have reached the conclusion after five seven years of worrying about peak oil that it simply will not happen”
    Kunster’s error is to assume that the trends he sees much more clearly than most are rapidly developing ones.
    The fossil fuel era will span a few hundred years. It is not going to die a sudden death.
    I believe Kunstler’s views on where mankind is headed are liable to largely prove true, but not as quickly as he thinks.
    Apocalysts can be right in seeing where things are headed but way wrong when it comes to the timetable.
    Case in point, Paul Ehrlich’s notorious bet with cornucopianist economist Julian Simon (not sure I remember his name correctly, which Ehrlich lost bigtime because his predictions for resource depletion didn’t come true.
    Fossil fuel era is several hundreds of years long. It is not going to stop dead in its tracks.
    Mankind is liable to die off from lack of fossil fuels but that is not happening tomorrow. Maybe not even in the 21st century.

  242. Kyooshtik May 8, 2012 at 1:01 pm #

    Sooner or later I predict that as the memory of the bad times for Blacks recede, the bitterness and division subside and they will catch up. You watch.
    ==============
    Depending on where you want to begin counting the years, it has been either 147 or 47 years during which there has been amazingly little progress in the assimilation of blacks into mainstream American culture.
    I seriously doubt that anyone commenting on this blog will live long enough (watching out) to confirm whether your prediction “the bitterness and division [will] subside and they will catch up” has proved accurate.

  243. mika. May 8, 2012 at 1:03 pm #

    how you can support an Elite who plan to turn Europe over to the Muslims and America over to the Mexicans
    ==
    Pay attention, Vlad!
    You know all this already but you’re too emotionally blinded by your childhood programming to connect the dots and see the big picture.
    Islam = Vatican
    just like
    Al-Qaeda = CIA/Vatican
    just like
    Litvaks = Vatican
    They don’t care whether you’re a brainwashed Litvak Jew or a brainwashed Moroccan Jihadist or a brainwashed Mexican Catholic. They only care that you are brainwashed and obedient to them, that you don’t question their authority. At the top, the Litvaks, the Jihadists, the Catholics, are all controlled by the same people. The same reptiles at the Vatican. Europe and the US are being swamped by these retrograde brainwashed populations because in both Europe and the US the general population has shown the Vatican the finger and refuses to accept its authority. It’s really that simple, Vlad.
    They want obedient workers. They want obedient slaves, to feed their parasitism. That’s really what it’s all about.

  244. mika. May 8, 2012 at 1:04 pm #

    how you can support an Elite who plan to turn Europe over to the Muslims and America over to the Mexicans
    ==
    Pay attention, Vlad!
    You know all this already but you’re too emotionally blinded by your childhood programming to connect the dots and see the big picture.
    Islam = Vatican
    just like
    Al-Qaeda = CIA/Vatican
    just like
    Litvaks = Vatican
    They don’t care whether you’re a brainwashed Litvak Jew or a brainwashed Moroccan Jihadist or a brainwashed Mexican Catholic. They only care that you are brainwashed and obedient to them, that you don’t question their authority. At the top, the Litvaks, the Jihadists, the Catholics, are all controlled by the same people. The same reptiles at the Vatican. Europe and the US are being swamped by these retrograde brainwashed populations because in both Europe and the US the general population has shown the Vatican the finger and refuses to accept its authority. It’s really that simple, Vlad.
    They want obedient workers. They want obedient slaves, to feed their parasitism. That’s really what it’s all about.

  245. Rhino May 8, 2012 at 1:11 pm #

    Don’t make assumptions about my own race, ethnicity, nationality, citizenship, place of origin or current abode. I will say that our extended family spread itself since the 1800s and maybe earlier over Europe, North and South America, Asia and the Middle East. I could be Hungarian Jew, Spanish Roma or French of Algerian origin for all you know. And English is not my first language. That’s all I’ll say. I really like my anonymity.
    As far as superficiality goes, do you think Duke Ellington is superficial? Or Nat King Cole? There’s a multitude of sublimely skilled Black musicians and composers. Can you make music?
    Blacks are people too – an earlier cruder version of Homo Sapiens. – Vlad
    Who says?
    But as far as Intellect – nada. – Vlad
    Come off it, you don’t even believe that.
    As far as celebrating the demise of the nazis and the fascists goes our family lost people to those pigs.
    OK as far as avoiding questions, I try not to. So what issues did you bring up that I ignored? Maybe it’s old age catching up.
    You can say what you like about Wall Street bankers. I have no use for that gang.

  246. Casual Observer May 8, 2012 at 1:21 pm #

    “To breed with them is to breed down and create a lasting legacy of poverty and crime.”
    I believe this statement should be backed up with facts or evidence.

  247. Rhino May 8, 2012 at 1:22 pm #

    Maybe you’re right. Maybe 500 years from now black people will still be a segregated minority that will not get with the predominant culture.
    But I don’t think that “emancipation” ended the trouble that blacks in America faced. I think there started to be some progress in the 1960s but in human affairs these things often proceed by small increments.
    Cultures and people in general are unpredictable and stubborn things. Sometimes they change by leaps and bounds but sometimes they don’t. Maybe you’re right, we won’t ever know in our lifetime.

  248. mika. May 8, 2012 at 1:33 pm #

    Blacks were never really given a chance to forget they were slaves. When Moses led the Israelite slaves out of Egypt, they had to wonder the Sinai for 40 years so that the old generation of slaves would pass away and a new generation with a new spirit of free men could be established. Blacks never got this chance in the US. (And I’m not sure they ever will). It’s not a coincidence that blacks that migrate to the US from places where they were free do much better than the local indigenous US blacks.

  249. rippedthunder May 8, 2012 at 1:48 pm #

    Afternoon Headless, Would you like chickens with that coop! Sorry Q, I didn’t mean to step on your toes. Also, Xhalor where is all the old iron flying around? I love old machines, cars, planes motorcycles, guns, even washing machines for that matter. I just came from the plumbing supply shop and they had a beautiful old copper tubbed washer. The counter guy said it still works. Try that with your Chinese widget! Brought a tear to my grizzled ol’ eyes.

  250. Rhino May 8, 2012 at 1:55 pm #

    Now why do you suppose our white snake from Georgia could not say the same already a year or two ago? – Mika
    Better late than never.
    What is it do you suppose that our white snake from Georgia knows about blacks that you don’t? – Mika
    I don’t know. What do you think it might be?

  251. Rhino May 8, 2012 at 1:56 pm #

    Good points.

  252. BeantownBill May 8, 2012 at 2:01 pm #

    You took the words right out of my mouth.

  253. mika. May 8, 2012 at 2:03 pm #

    Better late than never.
    ==
    I’ve seen you say it. I didn’t see him say it. So why better late than never?

  254. Tark May 8, 2012 at 3:45 pm #

    How long will it take Jews to whine their way out of feeling “ve iz so poisecuted, oy”?

  255. anti soak May 8, 2012 at 3:51 pm #

    The human race is better off w/o Julian Simon, gawd what a creep. Amd Beltway Uber Cornyakopeen!
    ‘Case in point, Paul Ehrlich’s notorious bet with cornucopianist economist Julian Simon (not sure I remember his name correctly, which Ehrlich lost bigtime because his predictions for resource depletion didn’t come true’
    Yes you have his name right. Dumped a drink on someone at a party, read about that.
    But the facts are damning about ‘the bet,and the Ehrlichs’.
    The Ehrlichs are right, but as JHK points out in his excellent bookie the fact of the ‘Green GMO Revolution’ increased our numbers and staved off the die off by some decades.
    Kinda like whats goin on in Africa if ya get my drift.
    ALSO THE BET WAS NOT ABOUT COMMODITIES BUT THE PRICE OF CERTAIN COMMODITIES IN A SELECT GROUP.
    Now with the privatizing of WATER, well all should be so shicked as to be speechless.

  256. Vlad Krandz May 8, 2012 at 3:57 pm #

    Indeed. But perhaps Tobor is right: modern industry just does not require the same amount of labor as its earlier versions. So Free Money or Credit might be the only reasonable answer in terms of efficiency and compassion. With one blow, the Human Service Parasitiic Establisment would be decimated. And people would no longer be blamed and have to crawl to these reptiles in order to survive.
    Of course the stipend would have to be a bare minimum and it would be a point of pride to be able to land a job and have more. So competition and initiative would not be destroyed by this system. The Reptiles on the other hand, will destroy it in order to attain absolute power.

  257. Eleuthero May 8, 2012 at 4:16 pm #

    “Angry Man” said:
    Why are you still here, week after week after week after week? Go away already.
    ***************************************************************
    And why do you bore the crap out of people HOUR AFTER HOUR AFTER HOUR AFTER HOUR AFTER HOUR?? Your modus operandi, that all evil issues from the Vatican, is stock-in-trade for a typical ignorant blog troll with schizoid tendencies.
    Get a life, you dumb Hebe.
    E.

  258. messianicdruid May 8, 2012 at 4:17 pm #

    “So Free Money or Credit might be the only reasonable answer in terms of efficiency and compassion.”
    “Makow quotes from the 1938 interrogation of C. G. Rakovsky, one of the founders of Soviet Bolsevism and a Trotsky intimate. Rakovsky was tried in show trials in the USSR under Stalin. According to Rakovsky, Hitler was at first funded by the international bankers, through the bankers’ agent Hjalmar Schacht. The bankers financed Hitler in order to control Stalin, who had usurped power from their agent Trotsky. Then Hitler became an even bigger threat than Stalin when Hitler started printing his own money.
    (Stalin came to power in 1922, which was eleven years before Hitler came to power.)
    Rakovsky said:
    “Hitler took over the privilege of manufacturing money, and not only physical moneys, but also financial ones. He took over the machinery of falsification and put it to work for the benefit of the people. Can you possibly imagine what would have come if this had infected a number of other states?” (Henry Makow, “Hitler Did Not Want War,” http://www.savethemales.com March 21, 2004).
    subrealism.blogspot.com/2012/05/how-hitler-defied-bankers.html

  259. Vlad Krandz May 8, 2012 at 4:18 pm #

    And a blue eyed reptitlian devil dog Switzer will have your Dvora – and there’s not a thing you can do about it.
    The Vatican wrote the Koran. Ladies and Germs – just contemplate the utter inanity of that staement and consider the madness of the mind from which it came. Sometimes it helps to put a frame around something in order to see it in a new light.

  260. Vlad Krandz May 8, 2012 at 4:26 pm #

    Thank you Messi, for giving the Devil his Due. During the “Sitzkrieg” or false war stage in the occupied Netherlands, several Nazi Agents posed as German Underground. They met with British Agents and asked what they could do to stop the coming war. The British said kill Hitler, suppress the Nazi Party, AND RETURN TO THE GOLD STANDARD – and of course Germany had no gold so would be opened again to the financial rapists.
    The Gold/Silver standard is written into our Constitution and might be worth a try again. But many fear what the Internationalists can do with it. Look at how they are kepping the metals down even now. And all our Federal Gold may be gone as well, we don’t know. In the future we might have to be flexible and go to social credit. Again, very awkward since one doesn’t play lightly with ones Constituion but there may be no choice.

  261. Vlad Krandz May 8, 2012 at 4:40 pm #

    It is common knowledge that the Black Crime rate is far above that of any other group. And that a low IQ and a high crime rate go together. And that these traits are largely physical, i.e hormonal levels (elevated T) and a smaller, less convoluted brian and thus, iheritable.
    Also a matter of record that crime and poverty don’t have a one to one correspondence altho obviously related. The American Indians are the poorest group but Blacks the most violent. Another Marxist Pin is knocked to the ground by the Bowling Ball of Truth.

  262. fashinrashin May 8, 2012 at 4:49 pm #

    Agreed, with several caveats…
    The debts are so extreme all around (7.7 Trillion that we know of in this country), that at some point we all just say “Its all forgiven” its just paper and “fiat” anyway. Thats one out , no one owes anyone else anything would work.
    The point you have made about another market quake is where we part company. This last go around nearly caused a run on the banks, we are in such bad shape worldwide that another ruction will be our last hurrah – globally.
    The other x factor or unknown is if there is another meltdown the 99% ers might not be so sanguine this next time – think Greece and whats about to happen there, they will default , not live up to their side of the bargain and Germany will say “no bailout” and you will have a failed state to contend with that has a “new ” drachma that no one will trade with.
    Then political extremism will ensue. The rest of Europe and the USA is not far behind Greece, we have just printed money to buy time – thats all that is going on. A further downturn will not stand, we will crash.

  263. Buck Stud May 8, 2012 at 5:07 pm #

    Q,
    I’ve read enough Krugman to recognize his “voice”. And even though I detected the voice of Krugman in Asoka’s post I let it slide; after all, I knew that the lack of attribution would rouse you from your rocking chair and nudge you to post after a short nap.
    As far as money, does it really have any inherent value? Why is gold more valuable than a dirt clod? Obviously, the notion of inherent value is a constructed convention that lacks one hundred percent consensus among people, hence your lament over the potential for inflation.
    Those underwater would like to see house prices rise so they can escape their dilemma. Similarly, you might welcome an increase in your own home’s value. Moreover, your mention of the “haves’ being screwed by inflation is a joke. Deflation almost always favors the ‘haves’ who swoop down like vultures to scour the land for pennies on the dollar only to hold on to their advantage until “inflation” amplifies their investment.
    And what better signifies the malicious “haves’ than members of the most privileged generation complaining about inflation when it was inflation that elevated their own bed and fluffed up their over-stuffed pillows? Meanwhile, the future of America suffers the prospect of crushing student loan debt as a result of suffocating deflation.
    But your generation doesn’t give a damn about that Q. You would rather wave the banner of that tired old GOP bullshit about the “haves” being ripped off.
    More and more, I have come to despise your wicked generation.
    At any rate, you’re better than your post Q. By lending credence to the myth of inherent value while ignoring the historical reality of inflation/deflation manipulation by the hands of “The Haves” you come off as disingenuous. Perhaps a job at Fox News awaits.

  264. BeantownBill May 8, 2012 at 5:19 pm #

    Vell, Shnark. ve’ll sthtop vining ven ve shtop being poisecuted by pipple like you, may Gott hef moicy upon your rotten soil.

  265. BeantownBill May 8, 2012 at 5:24 pm #

    You stupid goy. If you thought things through with an open mind (assuming you have a mind), you’d see that maybe Mika is on to something.

  266. Eleuthero May 8, 2012 at 6:11 pm #

    Asshole said:
    You stupid goy. If you thought things through with an open mind (assuming you have a mind), you’d see that maybe Mika is on to something.
    *************************************************************
    Defending your fellow Kike who has threatened no less than four people with bodily harm? How quaint. How RACIST. How so much like you, Bill.
    Oh, if I “thought things through”, I’d see that Mika was onto something would I?? Like this raving lunatic has a more circumspect, rational mind than I do which itself is a parody.
    Stay on CFN and make 10-30 posts per day, Bill, like Kike Boy, Asoka, and and the critical mass of crazies on this god forsaken cyber-backwater. You all belong here and the hours you spill here means you’re off the streets and not bothering the townspeople where you live.
    And now you even have a 9/11 “troofer” who posted of late. Such a perfect fit!!! The inmates are running this asylum.
    E.

  267. BeantownBill May 8, 2012 at 6:17 pm #

    Gold and fiat money both serve the same purpose – as a medium of exchange. Economic trouble comes when the government spends more than it takes in. Simple as that. When fiat money is in use, the U.S. government is allowed to print money to make up for any shortfalls. With the increase in paper, the value of that money is thus watered down by supply and demand. That’s monetary inflation.
    If gold is the standard, unless the government accumulates more gold and doesn’t use it, the supply is fixed. With an increase in spending, which occurs annually – brought about by government interest payment on its debt, and by an increase in population – then by supply and demand (the same supply of money, with an increase in demand), everything gets costlier, or in other words, inflation occurs.
    So what’s the difference, in real world terms, between fiat money and gold? Nothing. The issue is that the US government can’t spend more than it takes in. The government doesn’t produce anything, so it can’t expect more future income from increased production, like a business or a person. It can only tax more, but that takes away more financial resources from the public. Because interest due is an exponential mathematical function, and production increase is not, everyone can’t keep up.
    Add in outright theft from the public by the financial industry, in collusion with the government, more wars, and the loss of wealth becomes frightenly exacerbated.

  268. BeantownBill May 8, 2012 at 6:23 pm #

    I really don’t want to clog up the blog with all this bullshit, so I’m not going to reply, as per my one post response policy for racism.
    But I really am curious why first, you read the comments if you can’t stand them, and second, why you would engage with people you think are nuts or stupid? Enquiring minds want to know.

  269. San Jose Mom 51 May 8, 2012 at 6:49 pm #

    The only exercise Mika gets is jumping to conclusions.

  270. Vlad Krandz May 8, 2012 at 7:23 pm #

    Great picture of Bustin’s new girlfriend, Global Warmist Kari Norgaard.
    vault-co.blogspot.com/2012/05/professor-kari-norgaard.html

  271. progress2conserve May 8, 2012 at 7:24 pm #

    OK, another day of medical (mis)adventures –
    And I may have to run back out –
    So I may not answer some of your questions today-
    But I will get to them, before the end of the week.
    If I don’t get run over by a bambulance.
    Let me throw out a challenge to you boys and girls, let me to a little (peak oil related? remember peak oil?), and let me get a drink and some supper.
    The challenge –
    Find the worst antisemitic thing I’ve ever put in print on CFN.*
    Find the worst racist thing I’ve ever put in print on CFN.*
    =======================
    Only 4 rules for this treasure hunt.
    Individual attacks on individual posters don’t count – since we are a nation of individuals.
    Decrying tribalism doesn’t count – since the US is made of 100’s of tribes by now, the only way forward is for all of us to acknowledge that all of us are racist/tribal, and move forward by reducing our old ways.
    Saying that white people need a polite professional group to advocate for their interest doesn’t count – since every other tribe/group has its own advocacy group, already, and there needs to be a way to point this out – politely.
    Posting Fred, or agreeing that a post or link of any type is “generally true,” doesn’t count.
    *I don’t think there is anything racist OR antisemitic, BTW, but all of you should have a fun evening looking in the archives.
    Now – coming up:
    -Medicine, Culture, and Energy Descent
    -a p2c tale-

  272. mika. May 8, 2012 at 7:34 pm #

    The Vatican wrote the Koran.
    ==
    Yes, the Vatican wrote the Koran. And not only that, it also supplied the funding and the weapons for Muhmud to take on four very well established and extremely powerful Jewish tribes in Medina.
    Surely you don’t believe the official propaganda story that an illiterate epileptic wrote the Koran, when he obviously couldn’t read or write. Or that this same illiterate epileptic was capable of raising the stupendous sums of money needed to arm and field an army. And not just any army, but an army powerful enough and militarily capable to take on well established and extremely well seasoned fighters. If you believe that the illiterate epileptic Muhmud was capable of such all on his own, like the brainwashed morons that bang their heads against the floor 5 times a day, you’ll believe anything.
    So now you have to ask: why Muhmud? What was so special about Muhmud? Who was Muhmud connected with that would allow that someone to remain in the shadows, while the illiterate epileptic is kept in the limelight, to take credit that does not belong to him. Well, unlike you, other people asked that question. We know the answer. And the answer leads straight to the Vatican.

  273. mika. May 8, 2012 at 7:40 pm #

    Thank you, Bill. Don’t bother to sully yourself with that nazi shit. I can handle him just fine by myself.
    Btw, “Tark” is our old white snake, aka, PC.

  274. mika. May 8, 2012 at 7:45 pm #

    And a blue eyed reptitlian devil dog Switzer will have your Dvora – and there’s not a thing you can do about it.
    ==
    LOL! And what gave you that idea?

  275. mika. May 8, 2012 at 7:59 pm #

    Excellent retort, Bud.

  276. progress2conserve May 8, 2012 at 8:31 pm #

    I am no stranger to death.
    I have seen it in its unvarnished state out in the real world. I have seen it, more times than I care to recall, in its “clinical” state in too many hospitals. I have seen enough of it.
    And I have seen – God I don’t know how many, but too many – attempts by undertakers to hide the above facts, while taking money from distraught families.
    I have helped my mom work through her grief at the death of her one and only husband, seemingly in the peak of his health and early retirement. A lot of her grief was that he died suddenly and alone – even though he was an independent man, who had seen plenty of war and death himself – and who probably would have wanted to die suddenly and alone, sparing her.
    23 years after that, I held my mom’s hand as she died. 3 months ago, I held the foot of his bed, as my father-in-law passed away. (Much bigger family – I couldn’t work my way to the head of the bed on that one.)
    I have grieved with my own sons, the death’s of these two beloved grandparents, all of us knowing full will that some day they will do the same thing with my grandchildren, if we’re lucky and they bury me – which is the way it is supposed to go.
    Twice now, I have watched my older son – a tough as nails metro firefighter, who has seen more death up close at age 28 –
    than probably all of you blog rats of CFN put together ever will, except RT.
    watched those big shoulders silently quake with sobs – because there is nothing like family done right. And that’s some tribalism that we should all lay claim to.
    =====================
    Whoa – didn’t mean to bum y’all out quite that bad. And I still haven’t gotten to the peak oil tie-in. And, actually, my mom-in-law is doing pretty well, all things considered, and will probably be released to a skilled nursing facility in a couple of days – hopefully to get out in a couple of weeks and go back home.
    Hopefully.
    I’ve been touring nursing homes today for the family, solo. Brought up some bad memories.
    Anyone who strongly opposes assisted suicide for the terminally bedridden – has some strange issues that need to be examined.
    And there is a tottering house of medical cards in the US, that is ultimately not going to be sustainable.

  277. Kyooshtik May 8, 2012 at 9:00 pm #

    Excellent retort, Bud.
    ===========
    I can’t think of anything more valueless than praise from a Horse’s Ass unless it’s praise from a Horse’s Ass who gets your name wrong. Whew! what a Horse’s Ass!!

  278. Michigan Native May 8, 2012 at 9:04 pm #

    Politics as they exist now are a complete and total waste of anyone’s time, because all the whores involved still believe there is endless oil, endless growth, and when either the supplies of resources needed to sustain exponential growth run dry or the ability of the collapsing US dollar to purchase them is rendered worth less than toilet paper as a means of exchange, these knuckleheads will blame it on trying to manipulate the “free market” that has supposedly served us so well. I like what the late Frank Zappa said about Ronald Reagan sometime in the 80s. “Next time you see Reagan on the television, turn the volume all the way down, and tell your kid ‘if this man offers you candy, a ride in his car, or asks you to go fight in Nicaragua, tell him NO”. Likewise, when Obama talks, tell your kids the same about Afghanistan, Iran, or anywhere else the US plans to force the US petro dollar or swipe other nation’s oil. The joyride is over, but none of the politicians realize it or are willing to talk about it. The staggering amount of energy it takes to wage warfare and keep the military machine going will likely make future “liberation” or worse yet, “humamitarian” missions, like deep offshore drilling or shale/oil sands production, a net energy loss.
    What will the boneheads in the Pentagon be thinking when their country starts to collapse one house and business after another? They will probably try to commandeer what little preciuos oil is at our disposal to try and keep the entropic, energy guzzling and resource wasting military machine going, and attempt to impose martial law on the masses and allow the banks to continue to extract their pound of flesh from a shocked and suddenly destitute american populace, now hungry and in the dark shivering in the cold.
    Life will become cheap, there will be violence and blood in the streets as well as across the planet and people fight each other over the remaining scraps. The federal government will likely stay intact during the initial phases of collapse, but internal dissension, rebellion from the masses, and most importantly, the lack of energy to run those 12,700 armored vehicles along with the 450,000 rounds of hollow point bullets the “department of homeland security” supposedly recently obtained will run out of gas, the rounds will be spent, and the will the use them against people from an empire that failed will wane. Instead of pouring the remaining fossil fuels into renewable and sustainable energy systems, the US has been poisoned with its national chauvanism and testosterone flag waving idiocy and certainly will waste it trying to prop up their goddamned military and keeping the sheeple afraid, yet meek and obedient.
    Meantime, pull up a chair if you can stand listening to these bastards chatter on about more jobs, expanding the economy, spending more, “liberating” this or that country, etc etc ad naseum. The rules of the game have changed, the old ways are gone. Finished. End of story. No more growth. Contraction, deindustrialization, and more expensive energy as a prelude to collapse. The auto industry, the retirement industry, even the educational system is doomed to collapse (how many years of college would it take to teach people how to chop their own firewood or grow your own food?). Everything will be localized and much more agrarian with simple barter. The transition will be a nightmare. Dmitry Orlov was/is right. Politics is a complete waste of time, as well as the variuos talking heads and their fictitious exponential growth, endless oil,”free markets” and technology will save us type of fecal spew. The disaster is unfolding and will run its course and you will have to figure out how to fashion your own lifeboat or go down with all the rats and assholes who thought the USS Good Life could never sink, those who listened to the politicians, that believed in the tooth fairy, Sanata Clause, Jesus, Allah, and all that other mystical superstitious hocus pocus/bullshit. Hopefully, we can attach lead weights to the lawyers and politicians and Wall Street pigs/cock suckers who got us into the mess to begin with as a gesture of our gratitude

  279. mika. May 8, 2012 at 9:13 pm #

    Bud as in Buddy. Now we’re all waiting for reply to Buck. We know you read it. But I have a feeling we’ll be waiting for a very long time. Maybe in the meantime, you can bore us with stories of your family members passing away. God knows you can use our sympathies, idiot.

  280. mika. May 8, 2012 at 9:17 pm #

    waiting for ^your reply to Buck

  281. Kyooshtik May 8, 2012 at 9:21 pm #

    the tooth fairy, Sanata Clause, Jesus, Allah, and…
    ============
    I think this is what they call ol’ Saint Nick down in Ecuador, Brazil or wherever Asoka is: Sanata Clause.
    You been drinkin again Mich?

  282. rippedthunder May 8, 2012 at 9:43 pm #

    Hey Prog, No stranger to the reaper here. 31 years on the bone box. I could make your head spin. As Walter Brennan said in “The Guns of Will Sonnet” No Brag just Fact, Walter Brennan went on to win three Oscars matched only by Jack Nickleson. I lost Ma in the 7th grade. I’ve given’ many relatives the “Final Ride”. Sheet. Somebody had to do it. The city hall screwed up my vaca time. I thought i was done but I have two shifts left. Bummer!

  283. progress2conserve May 8, 2012 at 9:49 pm #

    As we watch this discussion thread slowly, but slowly, circle the toilet –
    Let us ask, why?
    First up, asoka.. He’s posted the longest, to my knowledge. He’s the most detrimental to a variety of true divergent viewpoints and to anything like reasonable discussion.
    So why is he here?
    3 possibilities:
    1. JHK pays him. Consider; JHK has an atypical reasonable streak on gay marriage, on immigration, and on race relations. Maybe asoka. is supposed to offset that for some reason.
    But, asoka. has been banned, twice – from “asoka” to “soak” to “asoka.” Why would JHK ban his paid own poster?
    2. Asoka. is a paid shill for someone else. Say ExxonMobil hired him to screw up the dialog here. Possible, but unlikely. Did you see the story where paid voice actors are hired with corporate/lobbyist money to call in to talk radio shows, like Limbaugh? In a country as pimped out and whored up as the US of A – who would worry about this quiet little blog? (no offense, JHK.)
    3. Asoka. is a paid shill for one of JHK’s enemies. JHK certainly has enemies. Have you looked at his “Hate Mail?”
    But, you would think, after all this time – that JHK would have caught on and banned his “enemy’s poster.” Free speech has its limits. And asoka. definitely hurts JHK’s bottom line.
    This brings us to the nastiest possibility – for what it says about Mr. Multitudes “real” underlying character.
    4. This is the worst possibility. Asoka. is just a selfish hater, of JHK, or something.
    Think about it. Asoka. undercuts JHK’s message repeatedly. He attacks new posters, often driving them away.
    He deliberately cuts into JHK’s site visits – from inquisitive new posters, especially – those who might actually BUY a Freakin’ BOOK from our host.
    ================================
    What do you think ladies and gents?
    Anybody else have a theory.
    And before Bill and Buck leap to asoka.’s defense – let’s consider how shallow that shows them to be.
    They already get all “giggly happy” when he says something nice about them.
    Not very much pride on your parts, boys, when you think about it.
    =============
    Talk about your useless parasite, JHK.
    Consider asoka. – if you wonder why your hard work on this blog doesn’t make you as much money as it, by rights, should.
    Why do you hurt JHK, week after week, a..
    Has he wronged you, in the past?
    Is that why you promise to quit posting in 7 (now 6.5) years?
    Is that when you think the endless wheel of karma will be balanced? Doesn’t work like that.
    ==============================

  284. asoka. May 8, 2012 at 9:54 pm #

    Q, Mich is trying to tell us something important… and you are pointing out a typographical error?
    The most important question has nothing to do with fiscal policy or money supply. It has to do with geopolitics: What is the minimum EROI that a modern industrial society must have for its energy system for that society to survive?
    That is the question we should be addressing. Not race, not religion, not immigration, not diet, not deaths in the family.
    Complex societies need a high EROI built on a large primary energy base.
    That is what we should be focused on, but mainstream economists are too busy focusing on monetary policy, the impact of fiscal austerity or the need for labor reforms.
    Just as the industrial revolution was built on coal, the post-second-world-war economy was built on cheap oil.
    Peak oil is our most important concern. There will surely be a significant impact if it has gone for good in 45 years.

  285. progress2conserve May 8, 2012 at 9:54 pm #

    “I’ve given’ many relatives the “Final Ride”. Sheet. Somebody had to do it.” -RT-
    Thanks for reminding me, RT!
    Seriously.
    Somebody, indeed, has to do it.
    ======================
    Keep your head down, dude!
    Just two more!

  286. asoka. May 8, 2012 at 9:56 pm #

    But, asoka. has been banned, twice – from “asoka” to “soak” to “asoka.” Why would JHK ban his paid own poster?
    Whoa, P2C. JHK has never been late in paying me. We try to keep things real and the fake banning and handle change evidently worked.

  287. asoka. May 8, 2012 at 9:59 pm #

    2. Asoka. is a paid shill for someone else. Say ExxonMobil hired him to screw up the dialog here.
    Whoa, P2C. You are not supposed to know about the ExxonMobil disinformation campaign. Did Wikileaks provide you with documents. But ExxonMobil has never been late in paying me. I get bonuses every time you say I am a resident impediment. So, I have to thank you because Social Security doesn’t go far.

  288. asoka. May 8, 2012 at 10:02 pm #

    Free speech has its limits. And asoka. definitely hurts JHK’s bottom line.
    Whoa, P2C. Free speech on CFN is alive and well. For the last 7 years I have been free to say whatever pops into my head, with no concern for logic or rationality, and JHK has not gone broke… in spite of the size of the checks he sends me regularly.

  289. mika. May 8, 2012 at 10:05 pm #

    Right now our problem is not lack of energy, but lack of the good income jobs, and lack of jobs, period. So the question should be why that is so. The answer has to do the allocation of capital and why it is that only a select group of unelected and unaccountable parasites have access to this capital.

  290. anti soak May 8, 2012 at 10:11 pm #

    ‘What do you think ladies and gents?’
    How many years have people been allowed to post here? 3?
    I believe this was posited 2 or 3 years ago, that he may be paid by the oil companies to ‘undermine discussion here’!
    I think hes a ‘wily devil’ who likes contradicting folks, as much as he can!

  291. anti soak May 8, 2012 at 10:12 pm #

    Jump? Or take flying leaps?

  292. Kyooshtik May 8, 2012 at 10:12 pm #

    What is the minimum EROI that a modern industrial society must have
    ================
    Oh man do I ever hear ya. Minimum EROI is practically the only thing I ever think of – morning, noon and night…even in my nightmares. You too, huh?

  293. asoka. May 8, 2012 at 10:16 pm #

    4. This is the worst possibility. Asoka. is just a selfish hater, of JHK, or something.
    Whoa, P2C. Your personal hatred for me, your absolute contempt for me, could, possibly, be affecting your opinion.
    See my post of May 8, 2012 9:54 PM where I posit this question:
    What is the minimum EROI that a modern industrial society must have for its energy system for that society to survive?
    This seems to be fundamental:
    Complex societies need a high EROI built on a large primary energy base.
    This is what we should be discussing instead of wasting bandwidth pop psychoanalyzing one poster who irritates you.
    And YES … we should reduce world population. But NO … bickering over what national immigration policy to adopt does not achieve the goal of a negative global population growth.
    Pew Hispanic Center researchers have issued a new report on Mexican migration to the United States in which they say there has been virtually no increase since 2007.
    Changing policies on LEGAL immigration also does not reduce global population.
    With energy contraction we must not just do replacement reproduction (ZPG), like you did.
    We must decide to have no children (NPG), like I did by getting a vasectomy before having children.

  294. mika. May 8, 2012 at 10:17 pm #

    No, the only thing you think about are titties. And I didn’t even wear my Sherlock Holmes hat to come to this conclusion. You told me this yourself.
    Still waiting for your reply to Buck.

  295. asoka. May 8, 2012 at 10:24 pm #

    You are the first person I have met who shares the experience of having nightmares about EROI. Thank you for your support, bro.
    Like you, I obsess over the ratio of gross energy produced by an energy supply process to the total, direct plus indirect, energy cost of its production.
    Like you, I know if the EROI of an energy supply process is known, then it’s net energy output can be derived easily given gross production data.
    Our future depends on it and that is why my sleep is disturbed by EROI nightmares.

  296. progress2conserve May 8, 2012 at 10:28 pm #

    “Defending your coreligionist* who has threatened no less than four people with bodily harm? How quaint. How RACIST. How so much like you, Bill.
    Oh, if I “thought things through”, I’d see that Mika was onto something would I?? Like this raving lunatic has a more circumspect, rational mind than I do which itself is a parody.”
    -E, edited slightly* for politeness-
    E, you are correct, of course. Mika is crazy.
    Anyway, I’ve got a couple of new theories:
    I used to think Mika was somebody’s hateful caricature of a crazy racist Jew. I mean – talking about how desirable GENOCIDE for Blue Eyed Blonds would be – on a public website.
    Crazy, right.
    Then Mika let slip that he was HIMSELF a blue eyed blond. And he let slip that he and his friends all loathed the US, partially because of their Russian schoolbooks.
    And I got to thinking – those of a certain age in the US will remember when elementary school teachers would divide their classes up into “brown eyes” vs. “blue eyes,” as a lesson on racism.
    Schools had to stop.
    Kids with brown eyes would go too far, deliberately hurting the “blue eyes,” in their classrooms. And this was in the US.
    Imagine how much worse it would have been for Mika, in Russia.
    Severely scarring experiences – at a young age – can warp a person for life, absent years of therapy.
    So he’s legit, I’ve decided.
    And his hate is understandable, though deplorable and unfortunate, still.
    ======================
    Bill, though? I mean, WTF!!
    What would make an American, of Jewish ancestry, defend a poster who advocates GENOCIDE, on the open internet???
    And not just defend GENOCIDE, referentially in this manner – but defend GENOCIDE, “TO THE DEATH.”
    Seriously!! It doesn’t make sense.
    Then it hit me.
    BILL – Bill is the hateful caricature, created by someone on Stormfront, or some worse place.
    That’s the only possible and logical explanation, that I can see.
    Makes me feel a little better, anyway.

  297. asoka. May 8, 2012 at 10:30 pm #

    Q, who wouldn’t have EROI nightmares after realizing that our current EROI models range from 10 to 25, depending on how energy costs have been defined.
    In comparison, it has been estimated that the EROI of U.S. domestic petroleum extraction in the 1930s was approximately 100.
    This is what makes sleep difficult. We are fucked!

  298. Michigan Native May 8, 2012 at 10:32 pm #

    Not yet, been reading alot. Cross referencing James Kunstler’s writing with that of Richard Heinberg and Dmitry Orlov, reflecting on the insanity unfolding in the world right now, and how hopeless it all seems. It is enough to make one wish to drink if one is at all honest and objective. My father taught me how to live in the woods, ironically I am in a better position to survive the transition from this anomaly, this brief period called the “industrial area”, but most of the people I know will snap and lose their minds if they cannot watch Sunday night football on their HD flat screen televisions. I am trapped in this insane asylum that has came to be known as Western “civilization”, but in the woods the scent of fresh air blowing through the trees fills my soul, the critters in nature are my friends, and the only time I really feel at peace is when I am out in the woods….until people start to chop them down in masse as natural gas is depleting rapidly and there is not enough time to retrofit your automatic gas furnaces for coal, which is dirty and destructive to air and water and will only last a few decades at best. Say goodbye to the trees. Now it is time to drink and wonder how people such as yourself could be so destructive and out of touch with nature, how this cancer that came here from Europe wasn’t content with deforesting and slowly poisoning the European continent, now they have done the same here and are on the brink of rendering not only the human race but all life on the planet extinct. I do believe in karma, and it will prove to be a bitch for many of you. So many are in denial and completely unprepared for the collapse which is unfolding, so few are willing to fight back. These are the things I cannot understand

  299. asoka. May 8, 2012 at 10:33 pm #

    P2C, stop attacking Bill and Mika. Please. Stop obsessing about immigrants, legal or illegal.
    Let’s get back to a topic more germane to CFN, like: EROI.

  300. progress2conserve May 8, 2012 at 10:36 pm #

    You harm our host –
    You have driven away an unknown, though large, number of posters.
    These posters found JHK on the open internet, made a comment or two –
    encountered The Resident Impediment –
    And left.*
    Sorry JHK.
    Asoka. won’t apologize, though.
    Selfish!
    *Tark is the most recent example.
    What a deliberately facile, inane response you made to him – completely out of the context of his post.
    Why do you harm JHK, week after week like this?
    What has he ever done to you?

  301. San Jose Mom 51 May 8, 2012 at 10:40 pm #

    Yes, yes Anti Soak…Mika takes flying leaps like a turbocharged super hamster.

  302. asoka. May 8, 2012 at 10:43 pm #

    Since we are on the verge of an economy without fossil fuels, an economy literally built from the ground (World Made By Hand), we should also consider biointensive farms that use no fossil fuels to be an appropriate topic for CFN.
    We on CFN need to learn more about quantifying and summarizing total human labor–energy input and total caloric energy output, to successfully design farms that can produce a positive energy-return-on-investment (EROI) leaving excess caloric energy available for building economic-community structures (e.g., schools and hospitals).
    Farm products with negative EROI must be coupled with other products with positive EROI to assure nutritionally balanced diets are maintained while still achieving an overall positive EROI for the total agro-ecological operation.
    We, the denizens of CFN, need to realize that similar to the ecosystem, energy budgets are tight, which makes for difficult decisions on diet, farm plot diversity, and energy profitability for our future survival.
    Considering the totality of this low energy agro-system based economy, we need to simplify many operational variables into a unique graphical solution space, to reveal both reasonable expectations of agro-ecological EROI performance, and extreme asymptotes, beyond which indicate regions of system failure, in other words, beyond which we are so fucked.

  303. asoka. May 8, 2012 at 10:47 pm #

    In case you haven’t noticed, I am trying to focus discussion on EROI and away from bickering about who posts what and why they post it. Bill and Mika are good people, but they are victims of your OCD.
    I am posting on EROI because our survival depends on understanding EROI and how positive EROI can assure nutritionally balanced diets are maintained while still achieving an overall positive EROI for the total agro-ecological operation. Don’t tell me you have never had an EROI nightmare.

  304. Michigan Native May 8, 2012 at 10:50 pm #

    Read Richard Heinberg’s “The Party Is Over”. The importance of energy and the laws the govern it are key to everything, living or non living, organic or inorganic….life itself would not be possible without energy. Societies and ecosystems thrive or fail based on their energy use strategies and adaptations. As societies become more complex, their energy capture strategies become less effective, less beneficial until they fail because of mismanagement of energy. That is why the Romans, the Mayans, the British empire (declined/atrophied to almost nothing until the North Sea oil gave it a temporary shot in the arm), the former USSR, and now the likely former USA collapse. They overstretch and their energy strategies are subject to the law of dimishing returns, so over time, they collapse for the same reason. It has everything to do with energy

  305. BeantownBill May 8, 2012 at 10:58 pm #

    You guys, meaning Procon, Vlad, E, Anti-Soak and a few others are really spoiled little brats.
    Because of your posts, the comment section gets sidetracked every week from its main purposes: to discuss peak resources, the dumbing down of America and the attempt by those with power to subvert the middle class. The discussions here would then be of much higher value than the petty ad hominem attacks.
    I suspect that JHK doesn’t read much of the comments section. If he did, he wouldn’t allow some of the posters to continue here. I’d guess he scans the first several posts on Monday morning – sometimes – and then forgets about it until the next Monday. So it’s up to us to control the quality of comments here. Those of goodwill ought to ignore all the hateful posts. I know it’s extremely difficult to do that.

  306. asoka. May 8, 2012 at 11:01 pm #

    Exactly, Michigan Native, it does have everything to do with energy, specifically with energies with a positive EROI.
    The oil price instability and the measures taken to reduce the increase in greenhouse gas emissions are the main factors promoting the development and use of environmentally friendly energies with a positive EROI.
    For example, take tranportation, please. (apologies to Henny Youngman for those of you old enough to remember) From an energy efficiency point of view, biofuels constitute a renewable energy source and its use helps to reduce energy dependency on fossil fuels.
    The most used biofuels for transport worldwide are biodiesel and bioethanol. However, there are other options such as straight vegetable oil. straight vegetable oil can be small-scale produced in local cooperatives through pressing, filtering and conditioning processes which are much simpler than the ones required for biodiesel production.
    Studies have compared the two biofuels’ production and their rate of consumption in a vehicle (a truck) to assess which is environmentally advantageous: to use straight vegetable oil directly as biofuel or to convert it to biodiesel.
    Calculations show the energy return on investment (EROI) and the environmental benefits are with using straight vegetable oil instead of biodiesel.
    Studies utilizing a sensitivity analysis have also been conducted. EROI indexes for straight vegetable oil and biodiesel production show a clear preference for straight vegetable oil as compared to biodiesel.

  307. BeantownBill May 8, 2012 at 11:02 pm #

    Shit, Asoka, I wish my last post above didn’t cross with this post of yours. We’re saying pretty much the same thing. Thank you for your comments.

  308. asoka. May 8, 2012 at 11:09 pm #

    Thank you, Bill. I agree.
    Not only should we avoid ad hominem comments, we should re-focus, to have a civil discussion of topics more germane to CFN… like EROI.

  309. asoka. May 8, 2012 at 11:17 pm #

    LOL! I think we were literally typing at the same time. Great minds think alike!
    Great minds need to be thinking about EROI in bioenergy strategies. In the absence of an economy-wide policy such as a carbon tax, two incentive strategies could bring down the cost of bioenergy, making it competitive with fossil
    fuels.
    The first would see government agree to pay a
    set price for emission reductions, effectively putting a “bounty” on carbon.
    A second approach would allocate incentives on a dollar-per-unit-energy basis, varying the level of this incentive based on the relative energy quality of each form of hiofuel produced.
    But the devil is in the details. Which is the “best” bioenergy option? How much of an incentive for bioenergy do we need? What is the right price for a carbon bounty?
    Getting objective answers to these questions involves applying four full lifecycle performance criteria, which should be at the core of bioenergy policy.
    They include energy return on investment (EROI), greenhouse gas mitigation efficiency, energy cost effectiveness and carbon cost effectiveness.

  310. Kyooshtik May 8, 2012 at 11:19 pm #

    Like you, I obsess over the ratio of gross energy produced by an energy supply process to the total, direct plus indirect, energy cost of its production.
    Like you, I know if the EROI of an energy supply process is known, then it’s net energy output can be derived easily given gross production data.
    Our future depends on it and that is why my sleep is disturbed by EROI nightmares.
    ===========
    Hey man, I’m with ya, 110%. You’re preachin to the converted.

  311. barneysgifts May 8, 2012 at 11:22 pm #

    LOL Nerds

  312. mika. May 8, 2012 at 11:25 pm #

    Snake, like your nazi compatriot EL TORO you just become slimier and slimier with every post. A complete degenerate.
    Your lies:
    1/ You say I advocate genocide, when what I said is that left to yourselves, you bloodthirsty savages will just kill each other to extinction instead of mass murdering others in your genocidal campaigns.
    2/ You say I have blue eyes, when I said that I have grey/green eyes.
    3/ You say Tark is Asoka, when it is clearly you.
    4/ You say Bill is a hateful person, when it is clearly not the case.
    5/ You say that Bill, Asoka and I are racists, when it is you who is the racist, and the lying anti-semite, and those you call your friends are the same.
    6/ You call me crazy, but my opinions are shared by many many others (as a quick web search will indicate), and more and more people as they become more familiar with history, especially the hidden history that TPTB/Vatican want everyone to be ignorant of.
    7/ It is you that constantly clogs this blog with your racist lies to which others like myself, Bill, and others are forced to reply to and correct.
    8/ You say I advocate violence, when I always advocate against violence. When I do speak of violence it is to parallel scenarios that show and highlight your hypocrisy by mirroring situations that you deem perfectly acceptable.
    I could go on and on.
    Snake, I know you find lying amusing. And that’s what makes a snake, snake.

  313. mika. May 8, 2012 at 11:25 pm #

    what makes ^you a snake

  314. asoka. May 8, 2012 at 11:26 pm #

    Q, I know this may be getting a little personal, but, besides EROI nightmares have you ever had nightmares about greenhouse gas mitigation efficiency?

  315. barneysgifts May 8, 2012 at 11:27 pm #

    Snake LOL

  316. Kyooshtik May 8, 2012 at 11:27 pm #

    Q, who wouldn’t have EROI nightmares after realizing that our current EROI models range from 10 to 25, depending on how energy costs have been defined.
    In comparison, it has been estimated that the EROI of U.S. domestic petroleum extraction in the 1930s was approximately 100.
    This is what makes sleep difficult. We are fucked!
    =================
    I Know! I Know!! You don’t have to tell ME. I’m the last person you need to tell.

  317. barneysgifts May 8, 2012 at 11:30 pm #

    LOL EROI Nightmares

  318. Michigan Native May 8, 2012 at 11:32 pm #

    Yes, no more nukes in Japan. Now they must import natural gas and coal, both of which are due to deplete, natural gas probably within a decade. The one country that has a few decades worth of natural gas is Russia (along with countries in the Middle East). The neocons persisted in atagonizing the bear by embracing hostile break away republics and installing that stupid and likely worthless missile defense shield near its border……so when the lights go out in the US and Japan, they will have to try and kiss up to Russia, who is already on nuclear full alert because of thye latest neocon, Obama, installing the defense shield and leary of a soon to be worthless US dollar. The Japs have always gone along with Uncle Sam, allowing bases and installations to spy on the Russians and the Middle East certainly has no reason to love the US and its allies /satellite regimes, so…..will be interesting to see the lights go out in Japan and life from the oceans is poisoned with radioactivity or levels of mercury that will make seafood dangerous if not lethal to consume. The disasters that await Japan may rival the disasters that the US will face from decades of fiscal recklessness, foreign policy mistakes and abuses, and energy waste and mismanagement

  319. Kyooshtik May 8, 2012 at 11:33 pm #

    Q, I know this may be getting a little personal, but, besides EROI nightmares have you ever had nightmares about greenhouse gas mitigation efficiency?
    ============
    Funny you should bring it up. In those rare brief moments that I am not thinking about minimum EROI or big tits with perfect nipples I am thinking about greenhouse gas mitigation efficiency? You’re a freakin mind reader.

  320. barneysgifts May 8, 2012 at 11:34 pm #

    Japs LOL

  321. Kyooshtik May 8, 2012 at 11:39 pm #

    I could go on and on.
    ============
    Oh please NO! Don’t go on! You are such an incredible bore….. as well as a Horse’s Ass.

  322. barneysgifts May 8, 2012 at 11:40 pm #

    LOL AN Horse’s Ass

  323. mika. May 8, 2012 at 11:42 pm #

    We waste more than half of our energy consumption on the military, war and destruction. This is a hideous waste of energy. Another very significant portion of our wasteful energy consumption goes towards maintaining destructive and predatory monopolies like the automotive industry and the corporations. Our problem today is not a luck of energy. Our problem today lies in a fundamental lack of political accountability and the stupendous mis-allocation of capital and energy to maintain central control by TPTB.

  324. barneysgifts May 8, 2012 at 11:43 pm #

    A Horse’s Ass right LOL

  325. barneysgifts May 8, 2012 at 11:45 pm #

    LOL Luck of Energy

  326. asoka. May 8, 2012 at 11:47 pm #

    Incredible! We are on the same wavelength. Sometimes I drift off to sleep thinking that care should be taken to ensure that EROI reflects the full lifecycle of bioenergy crops, including
    fertilizing, harvesting and transportation. Corn ethanol has an EROI of about 1.3:1, which means that for every unit of energy put in to making corn ethanol, 1.3 units of bioenergy are produced. Since you are a beancounter, Q, that means a 30-per-cent “return on your investment” in financial terms.
    Then, just before falling asleep to brave the EROI nightmares, I realize it is possible to produce liquid biofuels from more productive crops such as switchgrass (a perennial species native to prairies). With the technologies
    currently proposed for commercial scale-up, switchgrass could be used to produce ethanol with a projected EROI of 4.4to 6.1:1.
    Alternatively, if switchgrass is pressed into piellets or briquettes instead of being used as a feedstock for a liquid biofuel, it can be burned directly for heat energy or in combined heat-and-power systems. This solid biofuel
    has an EROI of 12.8:1. Using this system, the net energy gain (or renewable energy profit) from a hectare of farmland is nine times higher than a hectare of land used to produce corn ethanol, making this fuel source an option worth considering for creating bioheat.
    Then the nightmares begin about its combustion and how that requires appliances that remove particulate emissions. EROI, particulate emissions scrubbing technology, greenhouse gas mitigation efficiency, etc.
    Some nights I get very little sleep.

  327. barneysgifts May 8, 2012 at 11:47 pm #

    TPTB LOL

  328. Shakazulu May 8, 2012 at 11:49 pm #

    “Of course, you know you’re gonna get neutered.”
    I’d throw up too if I had just heard that.
    I did my squirrel hunting in Illinois in my youth. Dad had 40 acres of woods out back. Squirrels are the easiest thing in the world to kill. You shoot one and wait for about 5 minutes and the others start coming out again.

  329. barneysgifts May 8, 2012 at 11:51 pm #

    Particulate emissions nightmares LOL

  330. asoka. May 8, 2012 at 11:53 pm #

    Squirrels are the easiest thing in the world to kill.
    You can say that again. Here’s a squirrel huntin’ trick.
    The squirrel likes to run around to the side of the tree where you can’t see it.
    All you have to do is throw a stone or stick to the other side of the tree and the squirrel will come back to your side. End of squirrel.

  331. barneysgifts May 8, 2012 at 11:55 pm #

    LOL Squirrel huntin’ trick

  332. asoka. May 8, 2012 at 11:56 pm #

    The squirrel likes to run around to the side of the tree where you can’t see it. You can improve your EROI and not have to wait five minutes. All you have to do is throw a stone or stick to the other side of the tree and the squirrel will come back to your side. End of squirrel.

  333. progress2conserve May 8, 2012 at 11:56 pm #

    “You guys, meaning Procon, Vlad, E, Anti-Soak and a few others are really spoiled little brats.”
    Let the record forevermore show –
    Anyone who ever disagrees with Bill is wrong, is a racist, and is an antisemite.
    Anyone who agrees with Bill is right, and will be defended “to the death.”
    Sarcasm, now off.
    ==========================================
    What a well named ClusterFuck, JHK!

  334. barneysgifts May 8, 2012 at 11:58 pm #

    EROI squirrel end LOL

  335. mika. May 8, 2012 at 11:59 pm #

    When Obama deeply bows to the Saudi king, he actually bows to Rome:
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_Golden_Fleece
    Now, why is it that we never hear about these fuckers?

  336. asoka. May 8, 2012 at 11:59 pm #

    Same thing applies to fishin’
    The migration of fish teaches us that life is about energy gains and losses, the same principle that is applied to oil… in which the more the oil industry drilled, the less it gets back.
    With these declines, the industry turned to fossil fuels including bitumen and shale gas which deliver less energy but spend more on water, land and capital. Bad EROI.

  337. asoka. May 9, 2012 at 12:02 am #

    Anyone who ever disagrees with Bill is wrong, is a racist, and is an antisemite.
    P2C, I ask you politely once again. Please stop attacking Bill and Mika. Your hyperbole is not funny, and, increasingly, your posts have a negative EROI.

  338. barneysgifts May 9, 2012 at 12:03 am #

    Fishin’ teaches us LOL

  339. Shakazulu May 9, 2012 at 12:05 am #

    Thanks for the squirrel huntin’ tip. Only problem with squirrels is that it takes about a half dozen to make a decent meal.

  340. barneysgifts May 9, 2012 at 12:05 am #

    Hyperbole is LOL

  341. Kyooshtik May 9, 2012 at 12:05 am #

    AN Horse’s Ass
    ============
    Hey Barn, you’re a Brit right? Silent H on horse. An ‘orse’s Ass.

  342. barneysgifts May 9, 2012 at 12:08 am #

    Arse LOL

  343. Shakazulu May 9, 2012 at 12:08 am #

    “So many are in denial and completely unprepared for the collapse which is unfolding, so few are willing to fight back. These are the things I cannot understand”
    And they were marrying and giving in marriage, and buying and selling, and eating and drinking, until the DAY that Noah entered into the ark.
    Man is too busy to be bothered by impending doom. He lives by the motto “business as usual,” until the lightning strikes his house.

  344. progress2conserve May 9, 2012 at 12:08 am #

    Have you ever retracted a single hyperbolic overreach asoka.??
    Has Bill??
    Has Mika?
    So nice to live a completely guilt free life.
    What this place needs now –
    Is some Chinese spam!
    To the DEATH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  345. asoka. May 9, 2012 at 12:10 am #

    Fishin’, huntin’, EROI, all teach us important lessons. There is a direct relationship between fishin’ and huntin’ and EROI.
    In the last few decades petroleum has been consumed at a much faster pace than new reserves have been discovered. The point at which global oil extraction will attain a peak (“peak oil”) and begin a period of unavoidable decline is approaching. This eventuality will drive fundamental changes in the quantity and nature of energy flows through the human economic system, which probably will be accompanied by economic turmoil, political conflicts, and a high level of social tension. Besides being a geological and economic issue, peak oil is also a fundamental concern as it pertains to ecological systems and conservation because economics is a subsystem of the global ecosystem and changes in human energy-related behaviors can lead to a broad range of effects on natural ecosystems, ranging from overuse to abandonment. No more fishin’ and huntin’ … bad EROI.
    As it becomes more difficult to meet energy demands, environmental considerations may be easily superseded. Given the vital importance of ecosystems and ecosystem services in a postpetroleum era, it is crucially important to wisely manage our ecosystems (our fishin’ and huntin’) during the transition period to an economy based on little or no use of fossil fuels. EROI rules!

  346. barneysgifts May 9, 2012 at 12:13 am #

    EROI rules

  347. Michigan Native May 9, 2012 at 12:16 am #

    Tis ironic that I should stumble into this thread on a rare day off while I had been reading James Howard Kunstler and Richard Heinberg’s chapters devoted to the issue of whether or not alternatives to oil can keep the party going. I had asked Dmitry Orlov what were the efficiency ratios of green technology to fossil fuels….his response was “doesn’t look good. Anything green will get eaten”. Seeing he is a number crunching engineer and genius, I was hoping he would publish a blog or a book about the putative replacements to fossil fuels. Too many people either believe there will always be more oil or that technology will save us. That wall of denial needs to be broken, as JHK notes, it is even dangerous as it breeds complacency. From what I have read, his answer makes sense. The primary activity of post petroleum humans will be food production.
    Dmitry is anti nuke, JHK seemed to be pro nuke (before Fukushima), Heinberg likes hydro-electric and wind power, although they will never come close to matching the EROEI ratios of oil and natural gas.
    The idea of vegetable oils sounds wonderful at first, but how would you answer critics that will ask how we justify growing food for fuel in the face of billions of starving people and will this process be efficient not only in the energy invested vs the energy obtained and will it deplete the top soil of biota?
    I had not been reading other posts, glad I read yours, as these issues should have been addressed decades ago. People need to wake up

  348. barneysgifts May 9, 2012 at 12:16 am #

    WWEROID?

  349. asoka. May 9, 2012 at 12:18 am #

    Exactly, barneygifts, I think you’ve got it!
    EROI should also be taken into account in policy development. Good policies can be formulated through awareness and understanding gained from scenario-based assessments. Presently, most widely used global scenarios of environmental change do not incorporate resource limitation,
    including those of the Millennium Ecosystem Assessment and the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.
    Considering the potential magnitude of the effects of peak oil on society and nature, the development of resource-constrained scenarios should be addressed immediately. Ecologists and conservation biologists are in an important position to analyze the situation and provide guidance, yet the topic is noticeably absent
    from ecological discussions.
    I think CFN needs to urge politicians, corporate chief executives, thought leaders, and citizens to consider EROI, peak oil, and resource depletion (fishin’ and huntin’) seriously because they are key environmental issues of the 21st century.

  350. BeantownBill May 9, 2012 at 12:18 am #

    You and Mika are both right. Biofuels could be one of the valid alternative energies. And the issue with a lot of our energy consumption is its misallocation for use in war.
    We need to produce energy efficiently from alternate sources, but only until we develop a permanent substitute for oil that will allow us to maintain and even increase our population. The most viable sources are space-based solar energy and hydrogen fusion. From our perspective, the most basic energy source comes from the sun – which provides almost all of Earth’s energy through the fusion of hydrogen. There’s so many issues to resolve in develoing these energy sources, but over time, we can succeed. In the meantime, we need to utilize other energy resources like biofuels, wind power, geothermal, fuel cells, improved materials for solar panels, etc.
    Stop our wars, institute sane financial policies and throw out the bums in power, and we can accomplish what we need to do.

  351. barneysgifts May 9, 2012 at 12:19 am #

    wake up biota LOL

  352. barneysgifts May 9, 2012 at 12:21 am #

    bums in power LOL

  353. asoka. May 9, 2012 at 12:23 am #

    LOL! Jesus! Hallelujah!
    EROI, or no EROI: that is the question:
    Whether ’tis nobler in the mind to suffer
    The negative EROI of outrageous fortune,
    Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
    And by opposing end them? To die; to sleep;
    No more; a sleep full of EROI nightmares.

  354. Michigan Native May 9, 2012 at 12:23 am #

    I would agree on this. Our main enemy is human nature. Fear. Greed. We have been and will always be our own worst enemies, until we have worn out our welcome. I believe that time is close at hand

  355. asoka. May 9, 2012 at 12:33 am #

    LOL! Sleepy biota! Besides biota, let’s not forget about wind power EROI. A meta-analysis of 114 wind power studies showed an average EROI (for all studies, operational and conceptual) of 25.2
    (n =114; std. dev=22.3).
    The average EROI for just the operational studies is 19.8 (n =60; std. dev=13.7).
    This places wind in a favorable position relative to fossil fuels, nuclear, and solar power generation technologies in terms of EROI.

  356. Michigan Native May 9, 2012 at 12:34 am #

    It is called the pleasure principle….man seeks immediate gratification over long term needs and interests. When pleasure is threatened, enter denial and the other defense mechanisms. I am coming to believe more and more that mankind, in its present form, is too far out of balance, out of harmony, to continue to exist on this planet. I was and am a staunch believer in the “die off” camp for a few decades, for other studies I read unrelated to peak oil

  357. barneysgifts May 9, 2012 at 12:35 am #

    A mighty wind is blowEROIng

  358. mika. May 9, 2012 at 12:37 am #

    We easily waste 90% of the energy that’s consumed. And for what? So the criminals in the Vatican with their banks, their corporations, and their government mafia can keep us as slaves in their system. Our main enemy is ignorance. (And brainwashed americans clowns. See above).

  359. barneysgifts May 9, 2012 at 12:40 am #

    americans clowns lol

  360. mika. May 9, 2012 at 12:43 am #

    Q, I see you’re in a funny mood today. Glad you confirmed my suspicion. I knew you couldn’t resist. LOL!

  361. asoka. May 9, 2012 at 12:52 am #

    I’m glad to have Q. back. I hadn’t realized anyone else had nightmares about EROI.
    In my nightmares the EROI analysis I am dreaming lacks a consistent framework and therefore yields apparently conflicting results.
    The worst kind of EROI nightmare to have.
    Can you imagine variations of EROI analysis in different dimensions … based on the costs they include and their handling of non-energy resources?
    Can you imagine the implications of the different measures of EROI upon estimating the desirability of a technology?
    I usually wake up in a sweat, still estimating competing EROIs and their ultimate net energy capacity.

  362. asoka. May 9, 2012 at 1:04 am #

    Like Pedro Calderón de la Barca said “La vida es sueño” (a Spanish language play first published in 1635) and he did not have to think about competing technologies for energy production. Numerous technologies have been proposed as partial solutions to our declining fossil energy stocks.
    Calderón de la Barca did not have to think about the significant need for consistent metrics to compare the desirability of different technologies.
    Calderón de la Barca did not have to think about the ratio of energy produced to energy consumed by an energy production technology. He had no idea EROI is an important first indicator of the potential benefits to society.
    But we do have to think about EROI. Day and night EROI haunts me and makes my life a living hell because, as CFN knows, we are so fucked if we don’t quickly embrace space-based solar or thorium-based nuclear. The alternative is an EROI nightmare.

  363. asoka. May 9, 2012 at 1:08 am #

    Are you googling my posts, Puzzler, for originality and attribution?
    I don’t think you will find anyone on planet earth who has ever written about Calderón de la Barca, EROI, space-based solar and thorium-based nuclear in the same post.
    I invite you to contribute something original on EROI, Puzzler.

  364. mika. May 9, 2012 at 1:09 am #

    The accounting is completely meaningless. It’s an abstraction and a diversion. You need to know how prices are really decided upon to understand this. I’ll tell how they are decided upon. An old guy in London durring his 1pm tea time decides gold is going to sell for such and such and that’s what gold will sell for. Same for oil. Same for everything else. People are really ignorant. They think there is a “market”. It’s all an illusion.

  365. asoka. May 9, 2012 at 1:11 am #

    It all seems to be a crap shoot and what the big rollers want is easy money, a positive EROI, the biggest return on investment with the least amount of energy expended.

  366. Shakazulu May 9, 2012 at 1:14 am #

    “I was and am a staunch believer in the “die off” camp”
    Regrettably, true. Population Control (i.e., absolute control by extreme reduction in population) is the SOLE goal of TPTB.

  367. asoka. May 9, 2012 at 1:19 am #

    Does CFN realize the need for metrics that can reliably quantify the costs, benefits, and potential trade-offs of different alternatives?
    The full fuel-cycle metric is flexible enough to describe a wide variety of energy production chains, ones Calderón de la Barca never knew about, and has sufficient mathematical rigor to allow meaningful comparisons between them, thereby avoiding potential nightmares.
    The term FFC (full fuel cycle) refers to the complete fuel production chain including extraction, processing, conveyance to the retail distribution center and delivery to final consumers.
    For ease of use in applications, the metric is defined as an FFC multiplier which, when applied to the point-of-use energy consumption, gives an estimate of the FFC energy use.
    The FFC multiplier can be used to provide precise and intuitively reasonable definitions of other energy production metrics such as EROI.
    The multiplier does not depend on hocus-pocus or religious belief. The FFC multiplier is a non-linear function of a set of energy–intensity parameters that depend only on directly observable physical data, a nightmare killer.

  368. asoka. May 9, 2012 at 1:26 am #

    For die-off to be of use to TPTB, they must first determine EROI. Otherwise, they could end up cutting off their noses to spite their faces.
    What I mean by that is that the cost-benefit analysis would have to include quality of life issues post-die-off.
    As many have noted on CFN, TPTB would not fare well if, instead of brainwashed wage slaves and a dependable economic system in place, they found themselves in a Mad Max scenario complete with pandemic plagues and no dependable food sources.
    =================
    SOURCE ATTRIBUTION: Fetch Q! Fetch Puzzler! Find the source of my “cut and paste” and “stealing”

  369. Eleuthero May 9, 2012 at 1:28 am #

    ASS OKA said:
    P2C, I ask you politely once again. Please stop attacking Bill and Mika. Your hyperbole is not funny, and, increasingly, your posts have a negative EROI.
    ***********************************************************
    Why should he stop attacking Bill and Mika who, like you, are racists who think that your liberalism protects you against accusations of racism??
    I think P2C is one of the only fun people to read remaining on CFN which has become a parody of DUMB EARNESTNESS. Oh, so now you’re all about using economic terms like EROI as a metaphor for the energy expenditure of P2C and others attacking the assholiance represented by the Kike Defense Brigade and the Rainbow Coalition here on CFN.
    This site desperately needs scientific thinkers who also know what a proper argument form is. As things stand, it’s just a gaggle of survivalists, altfuel dimwits who don’t even know what a BTU is, and minority activists trying to make reverse racism and reverse tribalism seem like self protection.
    Go fuck yourself, Asoka. You’ve accused many of cut-and-paste from Wiki when I caught you doing this several times in earlier arguments between us. You’re a dimwit dilettante whose scientific background is almost ENTIRELY cut and paste from Wiki. This site, and especially YOU, are a parody of themselves.
    E.

  370. asoka. May 9, 2012 at 1:29 am #

    CORRECTION
    SOURCE ATTRIBUTION: Fetch Q! Fetch Puzzler! Find the source of my “cut and paste” and “stealing”
    Fetch Rhino, to find where I am getting my “unoriginal ideas”!

  371. asoka. May 9, 2012 at 1:33 am #

    Mornin’ E. You say
    Go fuck yourself, Asoka. … This site, and especially YOU, are a parody of themselves.
    Which is why you continue to come back, read the posts, and compose replies.
    Good to see you back. I always read your posts. I never skip over them. They give me great pleasure.
    You belong here … among the “gaggle of survivalists and altfuel dimwits”

  372. asoka. May 9, 2012 at 1:40 am #

    CORRECTION
    SOURCE ATTRIBUTION: Fetch Q! Fetch Puzzler! Find the source of my “cut and paste” and “stealing”
    Fetch Rhino, to find where I am getting my “unoriginal ideas”!
    Fetch E.! to find which article in Wikipedia I cribbed from.
    ==================
    Which is funny actually considering the amount of posting I have done on CFN criticizing Wikipedia, providing evidence that it is an unreliable, continuously edited (by third graders?), source of anonymous contributions, that are not academic or peer-reviewed, and that should never be used in scholarly arguments.
    You made me laugh!

  373. asoka. May 9, 2012 at 1:47 am #

    Biomass is an EROI nightmare.
    While various energy-producing technologies have been analyzed to assess the amount of energy returned per unit of energy invested, this type of comprehensive and comparative approach has rarely been applied to other potentially limiting inputs such as water, land, and time.
    CFN, we need to assess the connection between water and energy production and conduct a comparative analysis for estimating the energy return on water invested (EROWI) for several renewable and non-renewable energy technologies using various Life Cycle Analyses.
    I think we will find that the most water-efficient, fossil-based technologies have an EROWI one to two orders of magnitude greater than the most water-efficient biomass technologies, implying that the development of biomass energy technologies in scale sufficient to be a significant source of energy may produce or exacerbate water shortages around the globe and be limited by the availability of fresh water.
    Along with “peak oil” we have “peak water” and we need to take into consideration EROWI.
    Biomass is a nightmare for EROWI.
    ==================
    Fetch Q, Puzzler, Rhino, E.! (my attribution dogs)

  374. asoka. May 9, 2012 at 1:57 am #

    Getting back to the nightmare scenarios. One technique for evaluating the costs of energy systems is net energy analysis, which compares the quantity of energy delivered to society by an energy system to the energy used directly and indirectly in the delivery process, a quantity called the energy return on investment (EROI).
    Such an investigation involves aggregating different energy flows. A variety of methods have been proposed, but none has received universal acceptance.
    Economic approaches such as the index or marginal product method are superior because they account for differences in quality among fuels.
    The thermal equivalent and quality-corrected EROI for petroleum extraction in the US show the same general pattern: a rise to a maximum in the early 1970s, a sharp decline throughout the 1970s, a recovery in the 1980s, and then another modest decline in the 1990s.
    However, the quality-corrected EROI is consistently much lower than the thermal equivalent EROI, and it declines faster and to a greater extent than the thermal-equivalent EROI.
    Results of studies indicate that quality corrections have important effects on the results of energy analyses. The overall decline in the EROI for petroleum extraction in the US suggests that depletion has raised the energy costs of extraction. This is generally consistent with the overall pattern of oil extraction, i.e. both extraction and the EROI for extraction show a decline since the early 1970s.
    ======================
    SOURCE ATTRIBUTION
    Fetch!
    Q, Puzzler, Rhino, and E. : my attribution dogs.

  375. mika. May 9, 2012 at 1:59 am #

    Makes me shake my head. What disgusting compulsive degenerate liars these nazis are. Completely without honor.

  376. asoka. May 9, 2012 at 2:02 am #

    THE ORIGIN OF EROI
    Energy return on investment (EROI), is a term coined by State University of New York (SUNY) environmental science and forestry professor Charles Hall to define energy return on energy invested.
    It explains that an energy source yielding positive net energy has an EROI ratio of more than 1:1.
    According to Hall, EROI can be used to help evaluate which alternative fuels are likely to be the most economically viable. EROI can also help explain rising energy prices.
    =================
    SOURCE ATTRIBUTION
    Fetch!
    Q, Puzzler, Rhino, and E. : my attribution dogs.

  377. Eleuthero May 9, 2012 at 2:06 am #

    P2C said:
    I used to think Mika was somebody’s hateful caricature of a crazy racist Jew. I mean – talking about how desirable GENOCIDE for Blue Eyed Blonds would be – on a public website.
    Crazy, right.
    Then Mika let slip that he was HIMSELF a blue eyed blond. And he let slip that he and his friends all loathed the US, partially because of their Russian schoolbooks.
    *************************************************************
    Mika hasn’t figured out that Pravda, circa 1965, wasn’t entirely objective. 🙂 I mean, this dude is so nutty he thinks Fabian was some kind of prophetic “seer”. He’s a garden variety nutter who has an elaborate conspiratorial edifice, in this case the Vatican, and whomever has the gall to think that all world evil is not encompassed by this edifice is “ignorant”.
    Most blogs go to shit but it’s a rare blog when one of the central figures is virtually schizophrenic in his singleminded paranoia and others back him because he has the “correct” ethnicity to excuse his frank psychosis. I mean … the dude has threatened bodily harm to a handful of people and yet Bill and Asoka want to dismiss these as irrelevancies which is, itself, utterly psycho.
    Well, have a good time here P2C. The only thing left here is to enjoy divine malice, parody, and jabbing at the mad gorillas in this cage. Enjoy!!!
    E.

  378. asoka. May 9, 2012 at 2:18 am #

    About the rising energy prices I mentioned in my last EROEI post at May 9, 2012 2:02 AM, if you use basic economic and physical assumptions and non-linear least-squares regression models to correlate oil production price with EROI using available data from 1954-1996, you will find the models accurately reflect historical oil prices (1954-1996), and it correlates well with historical oil prices (1997-2010) if a linear extrapolation of EROI decline is assumed.
    As EROI declines below 10, highly non-linear oil price movements are observed. Increasing physical oil scarcity is already providing market signals that would stimulate a transition away from oil toward alternative energy sources.
    But, and I’ll tell you this so E. doesn’t have to, price signals of physical oil scarcity are not sufficient to guarantee smooth transitions to alternative fuel sources, especially when there is insufficient oil extraction technology development, a declining mark-up ratio, a non-linear EROI-cost of production relationship, and a non-linear EROI-price relationship.
    =================
    SOURCE ATTRIBUTION
    Fetch!
    Q, Puzzler, Rhino, and E. : my attribution dogs.

  379. asoka. May 9, 2012 at 2:21 am #

    I like Mika, as a person.
    There is no limit to the number of people you can love.
    There is no limit to the number of times E. will come back and grace us with his keen observations.

  380. asoka. May 9, 2012 at 2:32 am #

    Photovoltaic technology is another subject we have discussed on CFN and EROI plays a role there, a surprising one, since a high energy return on energy investment (EROI) of an energy production process is crucial to its long-term viability.
    The EROI of conventional thermal electricity from fossil fuels has been viewed as being much higher than those of renewable energy life-cycles, and specifically of photovoltaics (PVs).
    E. seems to think so, but he is wrong. It is largely a misconception fostered by the use of outdated data (E. frequently uses outdated data) and, often, a lack of consistency among calculation methods (ditto for E.).
    A thorough review of the methodology, and methodological variations and updated EROI values for a range of modern PV systems, in comparison to conventional fossil-fuel based electricity life-cycles, shows E. is incorrect in his assumptions.
    Science says E. does not know what he is talking about. He just likes to jab at “the mad gorillas in the CFN cage,” but has nothing of value to offer related to the EROI of alternative energy technologies.
    J’accuse!
    =================
    SOURCE ATTRIBUTION
    Fetch! Q, Rhino, Puzzler, E.

  381. asoka. May 9, 2012 at 2:43 am #

    Food production, food storage, agriculture, horticulture, permaculture all are topics on CFN and all are related to EROI, but I don’t think we have ever discussed Via Campesina which supports peasant and small farmer agriculture both in the South and in the North.
    The basic doctrine of Via Campesina is that of ‘food sovereignty’. It is a movement that defends an ‘ecological neo-Narodnism’.
    Among the analytical tools used by this international peasant movement is the comparison between the energy efficiency of traditional small farm agriculture and modern industrial agriculture.
    If you look at the history of agricultural energetics, and then look at the use of the concept of EROI by Via Campesina, here is the conclusion: industrial agriculture is no longer a producer of energy but a consumer of energy, and that ‘peasant agriculture cools down the Earth.
    The absence in Marxism of a tradition of analysis of energy flows is also notable, since it is of interest in order to bring together the classic economic concept of decreasing returns with the more recent notion of a declining EROI.
    ==================
    SOURCE ATTRIBUTION
    Fetch! Q, Rhino, Puzzler, E. (attribution dogs)

  382. asoka. May 9, 2012 at 2:48 am #

    5 key criteria for candidates for a new energy source to replace petroleum.
    The new energy source must:
    1. be rapidly scalable to needed capacity;
    2. have a high EROEI;
    3. be transportable, storable, and energy dense;
    4. be renewable and not just another finite, temporary measure (such as nuclear); and
    5. not degrade or derange the environment and its ecosystem services, with a specific focus on human health implications (which would rule out oil sands and oil shale).
    Can anyone on CFN provide evidence that any potential candidate meets these criteria. We are so fucked!
    =================
    SOURCE ATTRIBUTION
    Fetch! Q, Rhino, Puzzler, E. (attribution dogs)

  383. asoka. May 9, 2012 at 2:54 am #

    Anyone want to explain how petroleum scarcity and decreased EROEI can be addressed by the private sector? I say BIG GOVERNMENT is needed to address this transnational problem.
    We need a coordinated, large-scale strategy involving intergovernmental, cross-governmental, and public-private collaboration to facilitate the transition to a low-carbon energy future. The private sector alone cannot do it.
    ==========================
    SOURCE ATTRIBUTION
    Fetch! Q, Rhino, Puzzler, E. (my attribution dogs)

  384. asoka. May 9, 2012 at 2:59 am #

    OK, so EROEI is decreasing and is a problem. What can be done?
    How can CFN increase knowledge, change attitudes, and influence behaviors with regard to these issues?
    At a time when production declines are imminent and oil prices contributed to the most recent recession, the popular press has characterized recent oil discoveries in Brazil and the Gulf of Mexico as being quite large; but the projected production of these reserves will amount to only a very small share of current global annual consumption.
    This conflation of the amount that is in the ground with the rate of extraction continues to confound efforts to educate the public and professionals.
    Any ideas CFNers?
    ====================
    SOURCE ATTRIBUTION
    Fetch! Q, Rhino, Puzzler, E. (attribution hounds)

  385. asoka. May 9, 2012 at 3:04 am #

    In a petroleum-scarce future, with a declining EROEI, transportation will be low-mobility, a departure from conventional assumptions among transportation planners that both individual car ownership and overall vehicular travel will continue to rise.
    The need for low-mobility transportation clashes with our current built environment, as we have frequently discussed on CFN.
    A range of technological solutions have been proposed to allow us to continue on our current trajectory, such as dramatic improvements in fuel efficiency, alternative fuels and propulsion systems, and electric cars connected to a grid with the unlikely promise of carbon capture and storage.
    But these predictions may come into direct conflict with the realities of declining petroleum production. Many experts have argued that we must reduce vehicle miles traveled and change urban areas to make them more compact, and some have suggested that higher gasoline prices will motivate these transitions.
    Anybody think the solution is higher gas prices, or are we on CFN part of the problem?
    ================
    SOURCE ATTRIBUTION
    Fetch! Q, Rhino, Puzzler, E. (attribution hounds)

  386. asoka. May 9, 2012 at 3:24 am #

    On May 8, 2012 at 9:54 PM Asoka started talking about EROEI.
    Asoka posted 43 times on different aspects of EROEI, tying the concept into huntin’, fishin’, and Calderón de la Barca, among other things.
    I think this must be some kind of record in internet history, to have someone make 43 posts on EROEI in the space of five hours.
    Asoka will never get those five hours back. He does not have a life. All he has are nightmares about EROEI. How pathetic!
    And then he keeps mentioning his “attribution hounds”
    Q who thinks Asoka cuts and pastes
    Rhino who thinks Asoka has no original ideas
    Puzzler who thinks Asoka is “stealing” (plagiarism is actually kidnapping, not stealing)
    E. who thinks Asoka gets his words from Wikipedia.
    Now Asoka wants them to fetch attribution for him. Hilarious!
    What a night on CFN! Unforgettable! Original! Not from Wikipedia! Not from Krugman!
    ====================
    SOURCE ATTRIBUTION
    Fetch! Q, Rhino, Puzzler, E.
    (my attribution hounds)

  387. Vlad Krandz May 9, 2012 at 5:04 am #

    Mika obviously hates himself and is in torment. I try to help him but you don’t even lift a finger -even though he’s your countryman as a Jew. I care more about him than you though. You have pride but not love.
    Maybe I am Mr Kunstler???

  388. Vlad Krandz May 9, 2012 at 5:08 am #

    Did you ever define it? I don’t even know what it is… But I’m enjoying the not knowing – I’m sure you approve. 2nd Law of Theromodynamics related? Or closer to the Pension Provision? Or the Earned Run Average?

  389. Vlad Krandz May 9, 2012 at 5:10 am #

    One other point: As Charles Fort said, “It’s steam engines when it’s Steam Engine Time.” For example, the Romans knew about water mills to grind grain. They just didn’t bother. They had slaves for that kind of thing.

  390. Vlad Krandz May 9, 2012 at 5:17 am #

    Noticed you didn’t respond to my Homo Erectus being “just folks” retort. I don’t blame you. That was a knock out blow and you walked right into it. What could you say after all? The Truth is the best debate “technique” of all.
    Think of it another way: what would convince you that Blacks were different? Answer: nothing. In other words, it’s not a rational conviction but a quasi religious faith. And to paraphrase Schopenhauer, I’m not aruging with an intellect here, but a Will.

  391. messianicdruid May 9, 2012 at 7:42 am #

    “What disgusting compulsive degenerate liars these nazis are.”
    Still useful when you need someone to do your dirty work, as long as there is no debate. When they get on to your fraud, you just find another “compulsive degenerate liar’ THAT YOU CAN CONTROL WITH A LABEL to start pointing fingers at YOUR new ENEMY; there you have another useful slave, working for denari.

  392. ozone May 9, 2012 at 8:37 am #

    You sez:
    “Instead of pouring the remaining fossil fuels into renewable and sustainable energy systems, the US has been poisoned with its national chauvanism and testosterone flag waving idiocy and certainly will waste it trying to prop up their goddamned military and keeping the sheeple afraid, yet meek and obedient.” -MN
    This matches my estimation of the Future (near-term).
    As P2C is wont to say, it’s all about the timing that will describe the amount of oppression that’s brought to bear. This has everything to do with how a die-off is “engineered” or “black-swan-ed” into being. IMO, it’s going to resemble the last ride of the Mongol Horde, before a deadly plague of encephalitis drops all the horsies and they ride no more. (Your vision of an oil-dependent military w/o oil.)
    Are we a’fear’d? You betcha, Sarah! All these revelations about “thwarted” bombings; incredible how they’re letting all these national se’cur’dy details loose on the airwaves. “Frightening” revelations, no less… and double agents… and bomb-making madmen that work for A Q… you feel the fear yet? lol Makes me [properly, I think] fear the apparatus that grinds out this tripe.
    It should be obvious what’s going on, when the only “growth industry” is in Stasi-esque information gathering by private companies, contracted to the gum’mint.
    It’s the Charge of the Light Brigade, I tells ya!
    Those who would deny that the current dominant
    paradigm will be turned away from are those who are most heavily invested in it, or are so bedazzled by its’ comforts and gewgaws that they cannot imagine its’ dissolution. (If it’s not thought of, it won’t happen. / If I can’t see the monster, the monster can’t see me.)
    Is it any wonder that Bucky is mightily pissed? I don’t wonder at that a’tall; perfectly justified by all the waste and poisoning done in the name of progress and convenience by the most gluttonous and most hubristic “folks” that have ever stained the planet.

  393. progress2conserve May 9, 2012 at 8:55 am #

    “When they get on to your fraud, you just find another “compulsive degenerate liar’ THAT YOU CAN CONTROL WITH A LABEL”
    -MD, to Mika/Met-
    I would say that any poster who has been reading Mika for a while is onto the fraud. Only Bill and Asoka vibrate continuously with him in their self-referential circle.
    Which is sad to watch – but impossible to stop.
    I’ve been looking up Russian Jewish emigre demographics in Israel. I found this little tidbit on the open internet – then confirmed it on Wiki:
    Israel has seen a surge of neo-Nazi activity in the 2000s, linked to the arrival of over 1.2 million immigrants from the former Soviet Union.[74] …..eight young immigrants from the former Soviet Union who had been attacking foreign workers and homosexuals, and vandalizing synagogues with Nazi images.[75][76] The neo-Nazis are reported to operate in cities across Israel, …….Widely publicized arrests have led to a call to reform the Law of Return to permit the revocation of Israeli citizenship for – and the subsequent deportation of – neo-Nazis”
    -wiki-
    As a neutral and completely outside observer (and simple polite criticism is NOT, repeat NOT antisemitism) I believe American Jewry has a big problem with romanticizing Israel, these days.
    Americans, Jewish or not, have had most of the real rough edges of Tribal thinking worn away – by prosperity, media, and education.
    So there’s this feeling that just “being Jewish” is enough to assure the fair treatment of any Jew by any other Jew – anywhere.
    And of course, this is impossible.
    Who killed Able, after all?
    I don’t think it was a Goy.
    And it wasn’t the Vatican.

  394. progress2conserve May 9, 2012 at 9:07 am #

    I wanted to struggle back up through last night’s orgasm of EROI (Energy Return on Energy Invested, Vlad!) trivia – to compliment you on this post, BudIz –
    “And so it is in reading Cf Nation, one is sure to come away with dirty hands and a slight stench from much of the wasted, petty efforts. Yet amongst the barn yard of free speech there is always some fodder worth ruminating, some kernels of truth to ponder, some reason to keeping on.”
    -bud-
    Well said, Bud. That’s what keeps me here, too.
    ===============================
    And seriously, if anyone finds another place on the internet, that is something like this place –
    I sure would like the web address.

  395. ozone May 9, 2012 at 9:07 am #

    “As societies become more complex, their energy capture strategies become less effective, less beneficial until they fail because of mismanagement of energy.” -MN
    And we can see where this is going in regard to the complex [and thus very brittle] stratification of the FUSA that just happens to be crumbling about us.
    Present-day Greece is a good example of overstretch. The reason they’re in such grave fiscal straits is that they borrowed BIG-TIME to try and live the gluttonous ‘Merkin lifestyle through massive energy importation on credit. This is not talked about. Probably because we’re in the same pickle here. The only thing keeping the wolf from the door is the petro-dollar, and I’m not sure how much longer that’s going to be put up with, since its’ only backing value is the threat of bullets and bombs. (That doesn’t inspire long-term trust and cooperation, as we’ve seen.)
    Along with Shaka the Zulu, it seems we’re reading the same writings on many walls.
    (Sorry that a. seems to be trying to blunt/subvert your estimations by multiple blatherings; don’t let it discourage you. I can get a sense of his skewings toward “No Worries in Technological and Spiritual Smileyland” from just a few responses! It’s some pretty inept legerdemain. And, no, he’s not going to get a response when he VOCIFERIOUSLY objects to this observation.)

  396. Eleuthero May 9, 2012 at 9:09 am #

    Ass Oka said:
    high energy return on energy investment (EROI)
    *************************************************************
    You’re so fucking stupid and know so little about energy dynamics that you aren’t even aware that the proper acronym, used on theoildrum.com and by virtually the entire field of petroleum geology is ERoEI and not, as you say, EROI, you imbecilic nimrod.
    Then, in a later post you impugn stuff I said a year ago about PV cells because you figure I won’t be around to read it since I’m largely absent EXCEPT FOR TODAY. A year ago? Your post had more to do with impugning me than saying anything thorough about concerns like the area occupied by PV cells versus their energy output, the toxicity of worn PV cells, or anything else. It’s just an ADVERT without any science at all.
    There are many sickos on this site but you are the one most ripe to satirize because you’re really not a scientist, you cut-and-paste from single articles and then accuse others of doing same, and you’re just plain stupid and try to cover this over by just aping the words of real scholars as if they represent your own thinking.
    Your degree of patheticness crosses over into parody which is all that you and, for the most part this site, are good for.
    E.

  397. ozone May 9, 2012 at 9:33 am #

    “There are many sickos on this site…” E.
    Hey now; that term is highly offensive! I prefer to be addressed by the correct appellation of “mental-normalcy-challenged”. ;o)

  398. progress2conserve May 9, 2012 at 9:36 am #

    EROI vs ERoEI
    You know I’d never noticed that, E. Thanks!
    As you can tell, I don’t spend a lot of time on TOD.
    That’s because there is something driving us into doom that is a lot bigger than simple oil/energy depletion. There is something political, something Global, something that is elite and conspiratorial in nature – driving us into doom.
    What is it?
    How do we stop it.?
    That’s why I like this site – where good minds post and criticize one another’s ideas with fairness and intellectual honesty.
    While 4 or 5 minds engage in obsessive verbal masturbation on changing topics, like ERoEI, and tribal infallibility, and Chinese spam.
    Parallel conversations, guys –
    We can ignore the spammers and MASTUR deBATORS, or fight with them – (does it really matter?)
    As long as we look for the GOOD ideas and criticisms that keep us coming back.

  399. Rhino May 9, 2012 at 10:43 am #

    He actually said that Blacks are people. As I said, this is progress. That’s what I thought you were talking about.
    Now for this business about the Vatican writing the Koran: why would they? Why would they undermine their own influence by setting up a competing religion and ideology? Where’s the evidence for it?
    You said that the Vatican supplied the funding to take on Jewish tribes in Arabia. That’s interesting. What’s the evidence for it?
    You said that the likelihood of an illiterate man writing the Koran was slim to nonexistent. OK that sounds reasonable.
    So then who wrote the Koran? If you had claimed that the Koran was a product of dissident scholars who weren’t buying into the prevailing modes of Judaism or Christianity and if you could point to some kind of evidence for these claims well then maybe we’d have something new and exciting to talk about.

  400. Rhino May 9, 2012 at 10:48 am #

    Noticed you didn’t respond to my Homo Erectus being “just folks” retort. I don’t blame you. That was a knock out blow and you walked right into it. – Rhino

  401. Widespreadpanic7 May 9, 2012 at 10:48 am #

    P2C;
    I’m a little surprised with your ongoing beef with BTBill. Yes, I know he is in the North, Boston no less, and you are in Dixie. But to me, reading your posts for the past several years, you have similar outlooks. Certainly your similarities outweigh the differences; I assume you are the same age, you have a handle on the energy and political predicaments facing us, and you offer similar solutions. I like both of you. Time to bury the hatchet.
    So Asoka, what’s the weather like today in your home in “South America”?
    WSP7

  402. Rhino May 9, 2012 at 11:13 am #

    Technical glitch.
    Let’s start over
    Noticed you didn’t respond to my Homo Erectus being “just folks” retort. I don’t blame you. That was a knock out blow and you walked right into it. – Vlad
    Vlad if you want to be serious I’ll be serious, but a comment like this isn’t serious.
    What are you claiming, that Black people are akin to Homo Erectus? Let’s not be ridiculous.
    What would convince me that Blacks are different? Vlad, your question is empty. The question isn’t whether people from different parts of the world are “different”. In certain respects they are. You only need your bare eyeballs to tell you that. One question is how deep are the differences. The second question is even if you could tell how deep these differences are what would you do with this information?
    You are convinced that Black people are inferior. “Dumb” in your own words. You disparaged my comments about Black artistry. Yet artistic creativity is one of the defining characteristics of modern sapiens. You point to the high levels of criminality in the Black American community as evidence to back up your claims of Black inferiority. Yet you gloss over the gross criminality of enslaving Black people and oppressing them for centuries and even after “emancipation” was supposed to set them free. What does this say about caucasians?
    Let’s talk about idiocy for a bit, let’s discuss the imbeciles that decided to use slave labor on American farms. And not for a generation or two but for hundreds of years. What were these idiots thinking? Could they not foresee a time when slavery would not longer be tolerable? What would be the fate of these former slaves and their descendants after slavery? What would be the shape of society then? What would the relationship be between black people and white people? How would the two groups coexist? If you want to point to intellectual deficiency let’s talk about this catastrophic collective failure of the imagination and intellect of slave owning societies.
    In my view bad behavior, stunning stupidity and disastrous failures in judgement even over very long periods of time are not the sole preserve of one society or race or ethnicity. You see it over and over in history. So be careful about pointing the finger at Black people.

  403. ozone May 9, 2012 at 11:15 am #

    WSP,
    In case you hadn’t heard, the weather is always Goldilocks (“just right”) in Technological and Spiritual Smileyland. No worries! Unka Sugar and the Dominant Paradigm (the Military/Security Complex) are gonna take good care of us… right?

  404. asoka. May 9, 2012 at 11:30 am #

    Mornin’ WSP. Thanks for your inquiry. It is raining today.
    I will take this opportunity to let you all know that I am taking a break from CFN which will, at a minimum, last at least 15 minutes.

  405. mika. May 9, 2012 at 11:59 am #

    Well, I pretty much learned all I needed to learn here. Nothing really surprised me.
    Bill,
    I don’t know how you do it, living amongst these people, and for that you have my deepest respect and sympathies. All the best to you and yours. I hope one day we will meet.
    Rhino,
    Regards your questions, all of them are easily answered with a quick google search. You can learn all this for yourself, you don’t need me to regurgitate it for you.

  406. Widespreadpanic7 May 9, 2012 at 12:12 pm #

    Mika, BTBill has stated several times he wouldn’t live anywhere else and is staying in Boston no matter what. I’d say he has a pretty good life there. Boston is a nice place.
    –WSP7

  407. Rhino May 9, 2012 at 12:15 pm #

    Rhino who thinks Asoka has no original ideas – Asoka
    The accusation stings does it?
    First, let’s overlook your annoying, grandiose habit of referring to yourself in the third person.
    Sorry (actually I’m not sorry), but ideologues whether they be leftist, rightist or racist typically deal in simplistic idiocies and, like you, year after year and decade after decade, trot out the same old shopworn compilations of silly-assed slogans and ninny-isms.
    You toss out rhetorical stinkbombs but then, unable to deal with problems and issues that logically follow from your imbecilic assertions, find yourself hemmed in by your own stink. I repeated several questions over and over and over and repeatedly gave you opportunities to redeem yourself but you didn’t. Or couldn’t.
    Typical of the ideologue. Hang your head in shame.
    But you live in America (yeah, I think you still live in the land of Old Glory) and America is the land of second chances, isn’t it, where people fail time and again but pick themselves up and start over. Isn’t that right? So start over. Turn a leaf. Redeem yourself.

  408. Ogier de Beauseant May 9, 2012 at 12:16 pm #

    Yeah, yeah Jim. When the Dow hits 4000 like you promised many moons ago, I’ll start to take your rant seriously.

  409. Rhino May 9, 2012 at 12:31 pm #

    Is this what you’re talking about?
    scribd.com/doc/222227/How-the-Vatican-Created-Islam
    I hope this isn’t what you call proof.

  410. Rhino May 9, 2012 at 12:45 pm #

    Maybe if Weimar Germany was a cesspool of degeneracy it’s the fault of Germans and not Jews.
    And these “international bankers” you talk about. Power, in my own estimation, doesn’t emanate from corporate boardrooms, or company coffers, it ultimately emanates from the barrel of a gun. Mao was right. These “international bankers” find themselves at gunpoint and they find themselves doing what they’re told. And if these “international bankers” (which is code for Jews) were so powerful how did they end up not being able to avoid the destruction of European Jewry?
    In the main WW2 was a fight between the USSR and Germany for territory and dominance of Europe. Robbery on a grand scale with mass killing as its m.o.

  411. Vlad Krandz May 9, 2012 at 12:50 pm #

    Predators seek good EROI’s as well. They leave alone the healthy powerful and focus on the weak, the old, and the sick – thus improving the herd in the process. What provision does your system have for this kind of quality control?
    Remember what Lao Tzu said, “Governing a country is like cooking a small fish”. In other words, very easy to do too much. Less is usually better. That this Does Not accord with your big goverment is obvious.
    The Emperor adjusting his robe should be enough to inspire the people to civic and fillial piety in a well ordered state. But you want him to wipe asses. Face it Soak: you have misunderstood. You better go back to the basics and revisit all your premises. This would be true beginers mind.

  412. Vlad Krandz May 9, 2012 at 1:04 pm #

    No it was the Jews just like it is now. He bans the Ten Commandments from our buildings? Who seeks to ban any religion from the public square?
    But obviously the Germans let themselves be corrupted so the blame is there too.
    Apparently the Internationalists funded Hitler as well in order to check Stalin who was the loose cannon. Obviously they can’t forsee everything… And the Jews know that in the process of shedding oceans of blood, some of it is bound to be their’s as well. In any case, it turned out very well for them: they came out stronger than ever. Europe was ruined and became a second America. Of course you think this is great. And just like here, they proceeded to the next stage – breeding out the White Population.
    As Russell Kirk said, Conservatism means loyalty to a particular people, in particular place, at a particular time. This is a fine definition of Fascism too by the way. Leftists know this – stupid Conservatives bristle at the name Fascism. They Leftists got them coming and going and have complete control of the narrative. The faux Conservatives crawl on the ground barking like dogs trying to please the Leftists and prove that they’re “not racists”. Not only willing but eager to sell out their Brothers in order to appease their destroyers. Totally clueless that sucess means “no enemies to the Right”. It worked and works for Liberals, does it not? As Christ said, the children of darkness are wiser in their generation than the children of Light.
    But let us refresh our wits, my dear Rhino. Greece has been touched by the same Light as Germany was so many years ago. Here, watch and learn. Vide well little brother, vide well.
    wvwnews.net/story.php?id=11038

  413. Vlad Krandz May 9, 2012 at 1:09 pm #

    Thanks. Now what is the name of that pharmacy?

  414. Rhino May 9, 2012 at 1:19 pm #

    Europe was ruined and became a second America. Of course you think this is great. – Rhino

  415. Rhino May 9, 2012 at 1:33 pm #

    An excess of technical problems this morning.
    My screen name keeps appearing ie after the quote I’m referencing. Very peculiar.
    Europe was ruined and became a second America. Of course you think this is great. – vlad
    Anyway no I don’t think the ruin of Europe was great. I think it’s a calamity. What do you mean it was made into a second America? Are you referring to the influx of non europeans?
    That can be bad or good, it’s all in the implementation. If newcomers assimilate, get with the wider culture, are accepted as fellow countrymen, marry into the existing population then in my estimation it’s fine. No worries. For most of the past two hundred years North America was an assimilationist machine that worked well at integrating newcomers into the greater whole. Blacks and Amerindians being the notable and tragic exceptions.
    But if newcomers don’t assimilate, if they self segregate, if they aren’t accepted into the mainstream, if they don’t marry into the wider population, then disaster is the likely result. You are asking for a Balkan style or Rwandan style catastrophe and judging by past history you will get it. Multiculti-ism is one of the more moronic ideas to come from the left of the political idiocracy.

  416. Vlad Krandz May 9, 2012 at 1:33 pm #

    Mohammad may have been an epileptic, but like many such – he was a not a retard or cripple. In fact he was a well traveled, successful trader.
    He united the Arabs and gained control of the Arabian Peninsula back from the Byzantines and the Jews. His methods were often stomach turning though. He forced himself on a Jewish captive hours after putting all the men of her tribe to death. To put Mohammad in the same category as Christ, Buddha, and Krishna is something I have alot of trouble doing.
    Perhaps in such a crude people, Divinity must manifest in a crude manner using crude instruments. That’s the best I can do. I can’t defend him much against people who say he was a fraud or a monster. He just doesn’t match up against the founders of other great religions. He was obviously of remarkable cunning and energy but that’s not enough.

  417. Vlad Krandz May 9, 2012 at 1:37 pm #

    Liberalism destroys the nature of the People and the Nation – even without immigrants. But they speed up the process and more to the point, make it irrevocable. There can be no recovery or renaissance now without a counter jihad a la Brevik.
    Liberalism is Communism’s pimping little sister. But Capitalism will do too. Look at China. Both are heartless, ahistorical, anti-traditional, globalist, materialist etc.

  418. Rhino May 9, 2012 at 1:42 pm #

    Another thing, this business about who funded Hitler. Bankers are whores, always on the lookout for money, they don’t typically give a damn who they deal with. Too much is made of who financed Hitler, who financed Stalin. Bankers will sell their grandmothers if there’s a buck in it. Hitler and Stalin commanded huge armies, they had the support and loyalty of the officer corp and the ordinary soldier, they had huge political support and loyalty on the street. And they instilled bone chilling fear. Defy them and find yourself at the wrong end of a gun. Numbers on banker’s balance sheet are nothing as compared to that.

  419. Vlad Krandz May 9, 2012 at 2:17 pm #

    Obama pretends he is not for Gay Marriage; that he is “evolving” on the question… He just doesn’t want to offend Blacks and Hispanics who are staunchly against it. After the election he may well evolve in favor of it much as the Mormon God decided one day that Blacks were people.

  420. Vlad Krandz May 9, 2012 at 2:26 pm #

    Gentile Bankers, yes. Jewish Bankers, no. They are a People and have an Agenda. Even the Jewish Mobster Meyer Lansky made large contributions to Israel. Can you imagine the Maffia doing anything similar? The old Maffia – absolutely. The new “American” one after WW2? Not so much. They became corrupted by America too.
    Now that Whites are no longer a People, what do White Billionaires contribute to? Africa. Haiti. Blacks. Unbelievable, but true. People are just people they prate. The Jews smile in complete trimph. The Victory of the Ages is is within sight. White energy and genius has been harnessed to serve them. They decapitated the Native Elite and replaced them with themselves. And again, with the willing support of the Gentile Masonic Elite who are their fellow travelers. The really smart Jews know that Jews aren’t a Race and have no problem with a few Gentiles coming in.

  421. Vlad Krandz May 9, 2012 at 2:31 pm #

    For the Indians to assimilate would be for them to admit they were of no value in and of themselves. It would be to acquiesce to the White Conquest and be in fact the last stage of it. This is Asoka’s achilles heel. His diversity leads to its opposite, uniformity.
    Why would anyone who loves Native Americans want them bred out of existence?

  422. Vlad Krandz May 9, 2012 at 2:39 pm #

    You only have racial or tribal civil wars when Nations are poorly formed to begin with. The Hutu should not have been in the same Nation as the Tutsi. Nor should Blacks and Hispanics be in the same Nation as Whites.
    But races and cultures and borders are bad for biz. You reveal your real values and priorities here. And show the moral poverty of them in contrast with the real Nation State and a People who love themselves.
    And furthermore, People are not just People. Some are high and some are low. For the high to mix with the low is an Abomination. Our remote ancestors might have had the chance to mix with Homo Erectus. The ones that did ceased to be our ancestors. Likewise, the Future of the West will be made by people who refuse to lie down in the dust with the dusky peoples who have been foisted on us for that very reason.

  423. anti soak May 9, 2012 at 3:10 pm #

    HAHAHA
    A few days ago at UnamusementPark someone sniped
    that Pareene or some Pulitzer was a hamster.
    I rushed to the defense of hamsters there.
    Must I defend hamsters again?In just 2? days?
    I never ‘got’ Mika/Mets posts, didnt read many of them. I just didnt understand where / how all the ‘Vatican Siths’ were or how they operated thru the Jesuits!

  424. anti soak May 9, 2012 at 3:12 pm #

    To our knowledge no one here ever censored you!
    And after that one nasty post aimed at me I dont know what to make of you other than to relegate you to ‘scroll by’ territory [[Like Fly Over States, but on the net].

  425. anti soak May 9, 2012 at 3:13 pm #

    NOTABLE QUOTE OF THE WEEK:
    ‘The Vatican wrote the Koran’
    Way to go Mika!

  426. anti soak May 9, 2012 at 3:18 pm #

    Jews,Blacks,gays are great at ‘playing victim’:
    BeantownBill replied to comment from anti soak | March 17, 2012 10:18 PM | Reply
    Not only do I have to put up with the Exterminator, I have to put up with an asshole like yourself. If you had a dick, I’d tell you to go fuck yourself
    WHOS A SPOIL LIL BRAT?

  427. Kyooshtik May 9, 2012 at 3:19 pm #

    I am in complete agreement with the sentiments expressed below. The whole world needs a leader like Ms Gillard.
    Prime Minister Julia Gillard – Australia
    Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on Wednesday to get out of Australia, as the government targeted radicals in a bid to head off potential terror attacks.
    Separately, Gillard angered some Australian Muslims on Wednesday by saying she supported spy agencies monitoring the nation’s mosques.
    Quote: ‘IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT… Take It Or Leave It. I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Bali , we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians.’
    ‘This culture has been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom.’
    ‘We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society, learn the language!’
    ‘Most Australians believe in God. This is not some Christian, right wing, political push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture.’
    ‘We will accept your beliefs, and will not question why. All we ask is that you accept ours, and live in harmony and peaceful enjoyment with us.’
    ‘This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great Australian freedom, ‘THE RIGHT TO LEAVE’.’
    ‘If you aren’t happy here then LEAVE. We didn’t force you to come here. You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted.’

  428. anti soak May 9, 2012 at 3:21 pm #

    He just left a ‘rat killing’ post.
    I thought he was for Animals and is a Vegetarian!?
    Far as Bill goes, I think hes a good guy, just cranky.

  429. anti soak May 9, 2012 at 3:26 pm #

    Theres info online one of his Alma Maters settled sexual harassment lawsuits [2 of them] and the harassed were guys.
    I dunno how believable it is.
    Google ‘Obama gay?’ and ‘lawsuits involving Obama when he was in school’.

  430. anti soak May 9, 2012 at 3:29 pm #