Critical State


     Portents of winter and the toothless chatter of flag-draped traitors vies with a fog of lies spread by Koch Brother messenger boys, Reagan nostalgia hucksters, suck-ups in office, Murdoch empire servlings, Banker PR catamites, and Jesus terrorists to occupy the national mind-space with a narcotic Jell-O of half-formed wish fulfillment scams. The nation is hostage to a confederacy of racketeers. Banking. Big Pharma. The Higher Ed / Loan nexus. GMO agri-biz. Fast food. Mandatory motoring. You name it. What a disgrace we are, and the worst of us are the least to know that.
     This winter will be the Occupy Movement's Valley Forge. An uneasy quiet may settle across this land blanketed in frozen dishonesty while OWS goes to the ground. Wait until next summer when the Occupiers head for the nominating conventions. Chicago in 1968 was nothing compared to what might go down in Charlotte, NC (Democrats) and Tampa, FLA (Republicans) in 2012. These two giant, useless, political bucket shops need to be put out of business and something else has to take their place. Who will be the new breed of genuine patriots? It would be nice to suppose that something noble and intelligent might emerge from the current miasma, a reality-based third party. But history isn't so reassuring.
     I heard some rumors. Lawrence Kotlikoff at Boston University - the only economist in the USA with a coherent plan for banking, healthcare, tax, and entitlement reform - said on a podcast some weeks back that he was advising an un-named national figure who intends to mount a third party campaign. I didn't have a clue who that might be.
     Last week in Virginia a professional political back-stager, who had worked for the DNC during the Howard Dean days, told me that New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg was stealthily hiring Hillary Clinton's old campaign staffers in seeming preparation for... something.  Well, Bloomberg wouldn't have to take anybody else's money - and by "anybody" I mean especially the corporations because, you know, corporations are people, with free speech rights (and feelings!). It also happens that Bloomberg is neither a Republican or a Democrat, but a registered independent. Will he go to the ground, too, this winter like OWS, and wait for the public disgust to mount toward criticality? Hey, sometimes your country calls (for help!) and figures arise and they undertake what's necessary, even against type. Abe Lincoln, in 1859, was a railroad lawyer - the horror!
     I have no idea who else might be waiting in the background, someone tortured with disgust by the leveraged buy-out of the American common good, someone capable of articulating the terms of the convulsion we face in national life if we don't start doing things differently. Surely in a population of 310 million you can find more than a few resolute personalities who refuse to just sit back and watch the sickening spectacle of inept vacillation.
     Of course, the first order of business is to get corporate money out of politics. Are we capable of doing that? Can we legislate a redefinition of corporate "personhood?" After all, corporations have no allegiance whatsoever to the public interest, only to their shareholders and boards of directors. Who was the Supreme Court kidding when they proposed in 2010 that corporations have a personal stake in politics. Corporations are sociopaths. They need to be tasered!
     The second order of business is to enforce the existing laws in money matters and bring back laws (e.g. the Glass-Steagall act) that were recklessly thrown away in the systematic bid to loot the working public; then move beyond that to contest the web of rackets that make it impossible for Americans to even take care of themselves. 
     The third order of business is to shut down the war industry and close hundreds of overseas military bases that are draining scarce public capital.
     The fourth order of business is to prepare the US public for the realities of the post-Global economy and the post-cheap-energy way of life. Tell them the truth: we don't have "a hundred years" of natural gas. We can't drill-drill-drill our way to "energy independence." We have to get more local, less complex, finer, and leaner. Give the American people a clear sense of where circumstances are taking us, even if it is a tough assignment.
     More likely, nobody will step forward to take on the two major parties. In which case, plan now to occupy the political conventions. Google-map your routes to Tampa and Charlotte (Home of Bank of America!). Stake out the campsites and cheap lodgings. Prepare to shame these organized grifters, and to turn their self-serving jamborees upside-down.
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    My books are available at all the usual places.


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1187 Comments

James,

Another week, and the foundations appear to be shaking more severely, as the people appeal to the rule of law in an eleventh hour attempt to forestall the inevitable. But the laws we’ve promulgated for ourselves and for nature are at the center of this crisis. The trajectory has not changed significantly. So it is best for us to strap on our seatbelts, and prepare for impact. Whoever remains standing must be prepared to sort through the ruble and find their way forward. Best, kulturCritic

http://kulturcritic.wordpress.com/posts/shaking-the-foundations-beyond-the-rule-of-law/

I have been participating in the Occupy Charlotte marches. Looking forward to the DNC coming to town.

Bloomberg has shown his true colors with OWS by saying that we can't blame the banks for this economic mess. Great sound bite and a complete lie.

There is no politician that will lead the way. The people must wake up and lead, then the politicians will come running from behind. OWS is a great start. OWS has a lot more support than is shown in the media.

leaner - now that is funny

Valley Forge indeed: Those opposed to the OWS movement are counting on the cold weather to disband the group in NYC as winter sets in. In Charlotte, the protest marchers are fewer in number than five weeks ago, but the number of tents has greatly increased. There is something happening here, and what is ain't exactly clear.

JHK writes:
"What a disgrace we are, and the worst of us are the least to know that."

Unsurprising (in that we've seen the suppression of shame as a national modality), but truly sad and disheartening.

Soldier on, James, soldier on. Awareness may arrive in the worst of ways, but arrive it will...

Re "The nation is hostage to a confederacy of racketeers. Banking. Big Pharma. The Higher Ed / Loan nexus. GMO agri-biz. Fast food"

Ahhhh Jim.... you almost got there... almost nailed the BIG ONE.... but you just couldnt do it could you Jim?

Even though it's staring you in the face - and getting ready to kick-off World War 3 - you just couldnt find it in yourself to name names could you Jim? You had to pathetically try to defelect attention & settle for weasel worlds like "Jesus terrorists" didnt you Jim?


Have you no shame?

Sign the petition at GetMoneyOut.com It is literally the least you can do.

In addition to the need for an honest leader who will speak the truth about the REALITY of resource scarcity, climate change and the long emergency, radical change is desperately required. Matt Taibbi has clearly and concisely articulated 5 demands the Occupiers need to focus on: 1. Break up the monopolies....There are about 20 such firms in America, and they need to be dismantled.
2. Pay for your own bailouts. A tax of 0.1 percent on all trades of stocks and bonds and a 0.01 percent tax on all trades of derivatives would generate enough revenue to pay us back for the bailouts, and still have plenty left over to fight the deficits the banks claim to be so worried about.
3. No public money for private lobbying. A company that receives a public bailout should not be allowed to use the taxpayer's own money to lobby against him.
4. Tax the hedge-fund gamblers. For starters, we need an immediate repeal of the preposterous and indefensible carried-interest tax break.
5. Change the way bankers get paid. We need new laws preventing Wall Street executives from getting bonuses upfront for deals that might blow up in all of our faces later.

Realistically, I doubt any of these changes will be effected, but we must not give up.

I wouldn't count on Bloomberg to know what the hell is going on. See this excelent takedown by Matt Taibbi: Mike Bloomberg's Marie Antoinette Moment:

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/mike-bloombergs-marie-antoinette-moment-20111103

Face it, there's no one out there to save us. I wish we could draft Chris Martenson to run.

So we finally might get a third party candidate and it's going to be Bloomberg. Excuse me while I violently vomit. We might as well resurrect Ronald Reagan's corpse - being braindead is apparently a requirement to be president.

Matt Taibbi did a great job this week of taking down Bloomberg:

Mike Bloomberg's Marie Antoinette Moment
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/mike-bloombergs-marie-antoinette-moment-20111103

Mandatory Motoring
Mandatory Motoring
Mandatory Motoring

Alas, the words I've been looking for! Thank you Jim! My great state's motor vehicle code has quite the backasswordsness that doesn't allow for ELECTRIC BICYCLES. I'm chasing politicians and complaining that I am forced to pay $3.50 per gallon to commute. I still ride regardless almost daily and simply talk my way out of tickets as best I can. After being at the TOY Store this weekend, I found out you can make your own Bike License Plates for the kids... But instead of Joe or Billy I'll be making my own E-BIKE plate.

How about the TAR SANDS Protest yesterday? Any clusterfuckers attend? No mention of that Jim? It seams right up the Peak Oil alley and an historic event to say the least.

Off to the roof now...

PUSH ON. DO GOOD. KEEP SMILING.

Any bicycle will do, it doesn't have to be electric. Even small ICE powered bikes and cargo bikes are appropriate technology for the times.

http://alttransbikes.blogspot.com

Jim:

Your four orders of business should be the platform for a new political party along with planned population reduction and ecological balance.

Bloomberg is a fraud. He's on record as saying, only several days ago, that the banks didn't cause this crisis.

I was told OWS is planning a march on Washington in April. See you there!

"After all, corporations have no allegiance whatsoever to the public interest, only to their shareholders and boards of directors."

Actually it is a myth that corporations care about their shareholders. Mostly they care about their officers. Sometimes some of their board members. The shareholders are by and large just objects to be fleeced. That is why debt trumps equity in bankruptcy proceedings.

I can't help but think that had we elected Hillary we would not be in nearly this bad of a state right now. I do hope there is someone else out there but somehow I don't think so. The republicans are scary and the democrats are incompetent. Where does that leave us? Too many questions. No answers.

I don't think it possible at this point to legislate a change in the corporate personhood doctrine, given the line of Supreme Court cases establishing it -- right up to Citizen's United in 2010. I think a constitutional amendment would be required at this point. I agree that Glass-Steagall of 1933 (there were more than one Glass-Steagall Act) should be re-enacted. Oddly, and unfortunately, I think, the Laroushies seem to be the main ones pushing re-enactment of Glass-Steagall. Soldier on, Jim.
Phut.

Jim
Ahh I see you got up nice and cranky this AM, your wordsmithing is really up to par. Particularly loved the "suck-ups" part, so applicable to the national scene.
But I am a bit disappointed that no mention was made of the great Greek fiasco. The absolute horror expressed by all the "Western Democracies" to what? Why a democratic vote being offered to the people of Greece. The hypocritical outcry against the referendum proposed by poor old G. Papandreou was simply deliciously, viciously ironic. It just doesn't get any better than that, the public acknowledgement that democracy simply won't be tolerated. Mindboggling is the open disavowal by "Western Democracies" and shows that democracy is just one more PR campaign with about as much substance as the promises of the current resident of the White House. Jim, you missed a golden opportunity to practice your brand of vituperative wordsmithing, what a shame. Oh well, we can be certain that other outrageous events will occur in the near future in this Clusterfuck world.

So, as I have said before, I will pop up some popcorn and watch from the peanut gallery the unravelling clusterfuck in real time. With chagrin, horror, amusement, and a brewing terror as things spin out of control.
loveday

Jim: Again, stellar thoughts and effective expression on your part.

I'd only add that if the 1st order of business is accomplished - getting money out of the currently hijacked, "pay to play" system of representative government, the remaining reforms will follow.

In Denver, a school board race garnered in excess of a half million in contributions, many from out-of-state interests seeking to extract control of a public asset to serve private interests.

In addition to the 5 demands accredited to Matt Taibbi should be:

6. Anyone ehem, I mean corporation and therefore its' executives that receives [b]public money[/b] a [i]bailout[/i] is therefore considered a public servant and therefore should be paid the same wage as a public servant with equal experience. For example the highest pay bracket of a gov't worker

So, any executive of Behemoth Bank should receive about 100K per year. No stocks, no bonus no nuthin'.

Hey JHK, heard you on the Keiser Report and saw your comments about Bloomberg today.

Before hoping for change from a billionaire like Bloomberg, read Matt Taibbi on "Mike Bloomberg's Marie Antoinette Moment":

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/mike-bloombergs-marie-antoinette-moment-20111103

Bloomberg would deliver more of the same from the 0.01% and above class. Just like he has for NYC.

I see Paul Krugman has a surprisingly good post about solar energy and fracking this morning. Should get some word out there.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/07/opinion/krugman-here-comes-solar-energy.html?_r=1&adxnnl=1&ref=opinion&adxnnlx=1320676666-+baEF1bPWq7OhzPvwzZh1w

Of course, it would have been better if he had pointed out that solar needs to go hand-in-hand with conservation, as there's no way solar energy will replace our fossil fuel use. But hey, he's only got so much space, so I'll cut him some slack. And as long as he was in partisan mode, I wish he'd pointed out that not only is the GOP dedicated to only ussing fossil fuels, they are also opposed to all forms of mass transportation.

And another related article: The Dark Side of the Green City:

"Across that valley lies 1,000 square miles of low-density tract housing, where few signs of greening are evident. That’s no surprise, given the economic free fall of a region that had been wholly dependent on the homebuilding industry. Property values in parts of metro Phoenix have dropped by 80 percent, and some neighborhoods are close to being declared “beyond recovery.”"

"In the Arizona Legislature, talk of global warming is verboten and Republican lawmakers can be heard arguing for the positive qualities of greenhouse gases. Most politicians are still praying for another housing boom on the urban fringe; they have no Plan B, least of all a low-carbon one. Mr. Gordon, a Democrat who took office in 2004, has risen to the challenge. But the vast inequalities of the metro area could blunt the impact of his sustainability plans."

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/07/opinion/in-phoenix-the-dark-side-of-green.html

Cheers!

The mainstream media has shaped our discussion in the context of the beliefs and ideologies of the left and right. Shaping this duality into a workable compromise is the way to go. The reality is that the discussion was never based in reality.
Two wrongs don't make a right. The occupy folks realize this ,but are finding it difficult to articulate the path which will take us beyond what must be left behind. Reality of existence is sustainable dynamic balance, anything that compromises is erroneous.


Moral Relativity

JHK,
Excellent post today! You have covered the gamut of issues we are facing in one fell swoop. I recommend anyone who didn't catch JHK on Max Keiser yesterday to check it out.

Last night on 60 Minutes they interviewed Jack Abramoff, the poster child of rampant corruption during the Bush years who has served time in jail and has now written a book. Just a little aside, here. Is 60 Minutes now the PR book peddler company for those who have done wrong to sell their books?(last week it was the Madoff family).

Abramoff as one (victim) said so elegantly could "...talk a dog into getting off a meat truck." A. a devout Orthodox Jew claims that he was so far into the system that he couldn't tell right from wrong. Is that how it happened in Germany? The system is so rotten that you no longer see the forest from the trees?

Well the right wing Christianists know something's wrong and attack moral relativity that they claim is the left wing moral compass. So they claim those who believe in social justice are godless. Crazy conclusion, alright. So they protect the guilty and their huge profits at the expense of all others and attack the very tenets of their religion. Who are they worshipping exactly? Their greatest passion is to end abortions (& birth control) and repudiate all the progress of the 20th century, but is there a right to life after birth?

A few years back I was very concerned that our popular culture seemed to embrace organized crime, starting with Mario Puzo's The Godfather through "The Sopranos" They elevated Myer Lansky and Bugzy Siegel to Icon status. Usually when these thing take hold, you understand in your gut that this is the Zeitgeist of your time. Is this the culture we all unconsciously accepted?

On 8/22/10 I wrote:
The Myer Lansky Special: The US as Murder Inc.

The hero from WWII made an offer to the world that they couldn't refuse: Pax Americana and has pushed full-spectrum dominance in areas of military and finance to the tune of non-ending wars and the dissolution of the middle class.

Listening to Gerald Celente interviewed by Max Keiser this morning made me think about what this country has become and it couldn't be more depressing.

This country is being run by Public Enemies of the state and it's citizenry. Madoff may have been one of the few to pay a price, but everyone from think tanks, academia, media, insurance, banks and heads of state are complicit in this disaster.

Our media does not connect the dots and when it does it disappears into the ether to be replaced by mindless propaganda that pushes hate to divide the 95% of the population to keep us from focusing on the real issues. Celente points out that even with the extreme weather conditions in the world this summer nobody is talking about Global warming or at least the massive pollution that is spewed into the environment for the sake of making money to the enth degree.

Note: Last week I was struck at how the PR for BP has absolutely insulted our intelligence! They have the nerve to tell us they are flying planes over the Gulf to look for oil slicks after they used Corexit to hide the oil at the bottom of the gulf. Wow!! There was a great site that spoke about Corexit being used recently at night so nobody could see what they are doing. Hurray for Burson Marsteller, who are most likely behind the BP propaganda, though I can't prove that yet. Just imagine that they are intricately involved in our politics.

This interview is one of the best I've heard from Celente and it covers the full gamut of what has gone completely out of control. His time-line for deep world wide depression by the way is similar to JHK.

He discusses everything from the illusion of hope to the insatiable need of those with multi-billionaires to make ever more money and how our interest rates are kept low for the speculators.
The elite have done so well with Iraq and Afgh. they know they can't miss with more war...stay tuned for Iran...

In the vernacular of Sarah Palin: How's that Paxi-Americani working for you?

Buster J,
There is little in your post that is anything more than a personal attack, so I don't deem it worth a detailed response.

When James K calls for closing down the war industry he is right to do so.
I write from Melbourne Australia, and
in just two weeks Obama will be here on a brief visit and we're told that he is anxious to increase the US use of bases here and perhaps build new one

The rise of China is cited as the reason for this new defence commitment,though how bases in Australia could help the defence of the USA is not explained
Our PM,Gillard is an admirer of Obama and will agree to whatever he wants..though it will cost him!
Lucky the USA is so rich !

No one will save us, we must save ourselves, with new ideas. I think RON PAUL offers some new ideas: end the wars, shrink government, stop printing money, end the drug wars, etc. At least he is talking about these ideas while the others Talk the Same Old Trash.
That is why the mainstream media ignores him: be IS. Speaking some truth to ignorance. I don't agree with all of his ideas, but it is a start. Peace all.

Has no one on this blog heard of Ron Paul? And, Jesus terrorists? As in, all of those Christians killing and burning out the Moslems in Egypt, Pakistan, Iraq, etc.?

"That is why debt trumps equity in bankruptcy proceedings."

Not really. Bondholders (those holding debt) have been promised a specified percentage of return along with the return their initial loan. Share holders are promised....nothing. Thats the deal. No likey, no play.

"I can't help but think that had we elected Hillary we would not be in nearly this bad of a state right now."

If we had elected a glass of water we would not be in this bad of state.

Wrapping up last week...

CF: YES! I think we'd have a whole lot more skinny vegetarians running (moping) around if people had to be responsible for their own meat! Conversely, I think a lot of existing vegetarians would convert if they saw some of the best pastured production systems in operation, and the alternative to the CAFO death camps (in fact that does happen regularly). So maybe a wash.

Anti: I like that, just 'Anti'. Meds now "outkill" autos in the US. Isn't that something? Medicine kills more people than the 40,000 Americans killed by autos every year. I thought meds were supposed to help people? And I get a hard time about my vaccination policy...please people, wake up, the problem is systemic. Stop trying to cherry-pick the "good" things industrial culture has done for us from the rubble. There are vanishingly few. Maybe refrigeration?

IX: Re: mob-grazing, if you think I'm that stupid why do you read my blog? Oh gosh, no, we never considered any of that other stuff you brought up. We're just a bunch of addle-brained bimbos throwing a hippie party. How much fun!

James,

It looks like you're reiterating the platform you outlined in "My Tea Party" from July of 2010, minus the restrictions on immigration. While that will likely displease your more racist readers, it makes me happy. Remember that I told you that the Coffee Party would get on board with most everything else you proposed, but especially everything having to do with what we call "The Cycle of Corruption," which is explicitly about your first two items of business and implicitly about the rest, as it prevents acting on them in the name of the fossil-fueled status quo. I'm one of the people with access to our Blog Talk Radio channel. I'll ask the rest of the leaders to see if they think it's a good idea to contact your agent to see if I can interview you as part of promoting your Kunstler Cast book.

Speaking of the Coffee Party, we had a rally in Washington on the 29th, where hundreds of people came out in the driving freezing rain to listen to people who said "Enough is Enough" to our corrupted political system, one of whom happens to be the only major party candidate who is stepping forward with an anti-corruption, pro-Occupy Movement message as part of his campaign. The candidate is Buddy Roemer, former governor of Louisiana, who is ruhning for the Republican nomination. He's worth checking out.

As for the major national figure contemplating a third-party run, it's most likely Bloomberg, in which case, you can forget him doing what you are asking for. He's a socially liberal plutocrat, but a plutocrat nonetheless.

During the past two weeks, I blogged not only about the Coffee Party and the Occupy Movement, but also about the world reaching 7 billion population, Paul Krugman being parodied in The Onion, and the foreclosure crisis. Right now, the top entry on Crazy Eddie's Motie News is about how the miles driven by American when adjusted for driving-age population, peaked in 2006 and are still falling. Looks like the days of Happy Motoring have been coming to a close for five years now. Peak driving, anyone?

http://crazyeddiethemotie.blogspot.com/

I can understand that Kunstler likes to pin his hopes on any movement in US politics that claims to seek to challenge the status quo.

Thus he had hopes for Obama, even though there was little sign that Obama either comprehended or had any intention of seeking to deal with the greatest problems our nation faces: peak oil, population growth, and massive indebtedness.

(his latest economic proposal involves levying a new tax on the rich and immediately spending 10 years of the revenue on spending for his political friends. I witnessed this sort of Governmental Enronomics as a resident of California (fortunately, I have managed to escape that ineptly governed hellhole).

Now Kunstler pins his hopes on OWS, which does at least know that something is very wrong in this society, but has very little comprehension of what it is, and to the extent that it has any agenda, appears to be desirious of "doubling down" on government spending, accelerating the death spiral of government indebtedness.

He will be similarly dissilusioned with OWS as he was with Obama. In the case of OWS, however, it is really rather ludicrous to harbor any hope even at the outset that it will lead to anything positive. At least Obama did have some knowledge of public policy issues, something the vast majority of the OWS protesters do not.

be prepared to sort through the ruble
========

the ruble is the monetary unit of Russia, the Soviet Union and successor states.

"Who will be the new breed of genuine patriots? It would be nice to suppose that something noble and intelligent might emerge from the current miasma, a reality-based third party."
Yes, perhaps someone like YOU, James. At the very least, with your wordcrafting expertise you should become a speechwriter for any other candidate who shows signs of intelligence and a good grasp of the current realities. (Ron Paul?)

As always, a bittersweet pleasure starting off the week with a dose of Kunstlerisms.

from this perch in the forest of a third world country, I can't help but noticing how much angst appears to be somewhat self-referential, associated with the ongoing and inevitable decline of a country which pigged out for too long at the global trough and is now suffering many of the chronic debilitating diseases associated with a generation or so of gluttony.

The magical thinking, happy-faced future based on genetically engineered algae based bio-diesel or solar and wind deployed as 'fast and furious' as weapons into Mexico is just as likely to devolve into any of the various regional 'fracking' scenarios portrayed in The Long Emergency.

Having lived for a couple decades in a 'backward' agricultural area of Costa Rica, I get daily insights into the resilience of my neighbors and am left shaking my head at the woeful inadequacy of "Americans"--and residents of other developed countries--to retool their lives, their societies and their expectations to the long emergency which is enveloping them, chapter by riveting chapter.

When Richard Heinberg suggested that the response to the ongoing tumult was to start an eco-village, I, for one, took the ball and ran with it. www.puebloverde.org

Great article as usual. How about Ron Paul?

Thanks P. Krugman. We in Pennsylvania are becoming the sacrifice for the nation. FRACKING is as common in my Western PA area as McDonalds and WALMART. Farmers are losing their water and farms but collecting big lease checks and leaving their neighbors holding the bag. The gas companies,the Dept of Evironmental Protection, and Penn State University are blessing the Marcellus Gas Industry as if it were the second coming. Even though the bromide/brine levels are destroying our public water sources eg. the Allegheny River/Monongahela Rivers, the industry says.......don't worry be happy. Our Republican Governor, Tom Corbett, who took millions of campaign dollars from the industry is running around the State with his group of money bags saying that we are the Saudi Arabia of the gas industry. Out townships are being over run by gas company lawyers turning over zoning. Wells are being drilled in housing plans, school campuses, dairy farm corn fields and soon in all the State Game Lands and Parks.
Of course, in 2005 VP Cheney/Haliburton was behind the secret potion of chemicals used for fracking being exempt from the clean air and water act. How soon will it be until the residents of Pennsylvania will be the CANCER poster children of the world............

In Australia the debate about "fracking" and it's damage to the earth itself is just starting.
The politicians are runniong scared,and the gas industry is all a cashed up...but there is a growing public alarm and our growing Green party is taking a leading role in the opposition..with 9 Senators in the Federal senate and members in most state legislatures the Greens are a coming force

Americans could do with such a group

Hilary wouldn't have been any better, she's a member of the same club as all the rest of them.

Signed the Get Money Out petition, too...

Well Jim, how 'bout you run!.... I'll vote many x's!

I've been asking people who should/could be a prez candidate, but there's no clear frontrunner, let alone even some names....uggggg...

btw people, those here who are promoting Ron Paul, would do well to look up an expose on him which was published on commondreams.org sometime in the last month or so.....
He really is kind of an idiot (& his son is worse...). He may agree with progressives on a few issues, but it ends there. Why do we always have to settle for someone? And Bloomberg is no real friend of the 99%.

So who do we write in???... Maybe I'll go with Wavy Gravy!

A really sad but true opening paragraph. Has doing what's right for the Country become a thing of the past ? No matter which party takes power, doing what's right gets left behind once the votes are counted. It will be interesting to see who might step forward with another party. While there are many parties out there fielding candidates, only 2 get the nod when it comes down to who we can vote for. The rest are passed off as either irrelative or moonbat fringe. IF there was any sense of true democracy all parties would be treated equally and we would have serious dialogue on the issues the nation/republic faces. And out of this the best proposel would be selected for implementation. Dream on....kiddies special interest's rule. Change is needed and long overdue. However open rebellion via O W S will be dealt with harshly as per laws we might be fully aware of till they spring forth.

It's been said that the O W S movement if waiting for and seeking their "Kent State" moment. Be careful what you wish for ! Bloodshed and rioting is not the answer to anything ! What needs fixing has to be done within the legal framework. Violence just plays to the ruling party's favour and the reforms never happen. All a riotous O W S will do is give nobama another excuse not to fix the problems. Can't fix what's broke with all these damn rioters in the way. RIIIIGHT ?

What's happening today is like it's all falling out of the most destructive playbook ever written. NONE DARE CALL IT CONSPIRACY BY GARY ALLEN 1972 ! READ IT AND COMPARE WHERE WE'RE AT AND WHAT WAS WRITTEN SO LONG AGO. Once you read it and understand it you will see that it was never a conspiracy.... it was a bold plan and it just might come to pass.

Another happy fuck'n Monday ! See you next for some more good news. In the mean time Stay Frosty and stock up.

James,

You articulate and seem to know and understand many of the issues better than most. I think you should consider some kind of a political move in a bid to end the US corporate plantation and its thieving lords.

Some others to add to your list of 'confederacy of racketeers' would include the whole list of US federal government agencies, from the CIA, to Homeland Security, Department of Agriculture, Department of Education, the IRS, and so on.

Also, very important, the FED and the big banks and the primary dealers, the MSM propaganda outlets, the corporate sponsored "NGO" propaganda groups, the Courts, the Church/Vatican. They are all part of this web.

The system needs to be completely repudiated. At the global center of it all is the Vatican and Central Banks which they own and control. Simply put, what you're seeing a push back against the Enlightenment by the old Roman Reich. Only now they don't call it the Roman Reich, now they call it the NEW WORLD ORDER. And the US is an integral part of that global Vatican fascist scheme.

Instead of sitting eating popcorn and watching from the peanut gallery, why don't you get out into the streets?

hey Q-check: perhaps, being in russia(sic), sandy is trying to tell us something...

I loved that first paragraph this morning. But like another reader, I was a little surprised not see any mention of the European debt/Greek default(?) issue. Oh well -- so much to comment on, so few pixels (and time)!

As a nation, we ARE a disgrace. But I know so many conscientious people doing good work -- trying desperately to undo or make up for the mess made by those in power -- we should try to keep them in mind. They, too, are American citizens. My wife does grueling work in an inner-city hospital, then spends several more hours every week helping to manage a free clinic in our town.

Anyway, we can camp out in the public squares as long as we like. I fear that the whole rotten, stinking body called Congress, and their richest, most selfish corporate masters, will NEVER give more than a symbolic inch to righting what is wrong. I am terrified that it will only take torches and pitchforks and the guillotine -- a bloody, ugly mess.

Money makes the world go around
The world go around
The world go around
Money makes the world go around
It makes the world go 'round.
Money,money,money,money,money......
OCCUPY THE SUPREME COURT,
OVERTURN CITIZENS UNITED!

JK,

great essay this week. The opening is perhaps a little too wordy. But otherwise your prose hammers home the frustrating nature of living in country filled by idiots listening to the shilling of oh so many other more powerful idiots leading us to disaster.

Our "world leaders" continue their fantasies of installing "systemic to-big-to-fail banking fiefdoms" at the G20 summit. The new oracle that guides the markets of the world is the "FSB" - and it only works for banksters.

Throw out all the other science fiction. It was November, 2011 when the new world order was defined.

Long live GS! Long live BOA. God save JPM and Morgan Stanley. Bless us oh banksters for we have sinned - let us pray for your complete indulgence.

man, people, stop whining interminably about things you cannot change (without killing your sanity/health etc) and change what you can, viz. make your house smaller, greener, with indoor/outdoor gardening.

i guarantee you'll feel more satisfied.

and shut your phuqqing tv's off. 'back to the land', whether literally or to the extent you can wherever you happen to live, is great for your peace of mind.

am planting another 1,000 gladiolus down here in brazil, warm weather year round sure helps lol

tune in, turn on and drop out, within reason and ability...

peace peaceniks

The third order of business is to shut down the war industry and close hundreds of overseas military bases that are draining scarce public capital.

Amen to that, brother Jim.

And while we're at it, we ought to remove "In God We Trust" from all USA currency. It is obvious what we trust is an $671 Billion dollar defense budget (that is what Obama has requested).

We ought to take away Obama's Nobel Peace Prize, too.

My only disagreement with JHK is that we may have enough natural gas to use as a transition fuel to a post-oil world. We should not be squandering it to extract and refine dirty non-conventional oil.

It's like using fine wine to make cheap vinegar.

But whatever the gas question, JHK's right that 2012 will be one of those years to remember. I wonder if that unnamed figure might be Colin Powell? He was the only sane voice as Darth Cheney and his evil Jedi, W wrecked the nation.

QTIP:
I found a site last week and think you [and others]
will enjoy:
CRIMES OF THE TIMES / BLOGSPOT

Another is EMSNEWS/ Elaine Supkis

For those who want to see the Ny Times real agenda!!

"Of course, in 2005 VP Cheney/Haliburton was behind the secret potion of chemicals used for fracking being exempt from the clean air and water act. How soon will it be until the residents of Pennsylvania will be the CANCER poster children of the world...."

Yep, I think we understand that this rapacious craziness will continue until somebody makes it too expensive to operate the extractive scam. You know exactly what I'm talking about, don't you?

...And, of course, that ain't gonna happen until somebody's kids get snuffed by the resultant cancers, like you mention. I don't think corporate greed-heads properly appreciate the reality of revenge.... until it bites 'em right in the ass, prior to the devouring.

In the 1960s the head of General Motors could say, with some justification, that what was good for GM was good for America. The market and the growth was right here: if GM was to prosper they had to help make sure that the people here could buy their stuff. But not now.

Now all the growth markets are elsewhere. What idiot would invest their money here? Every dollar that given to the wealthy, via tax breaks or whatever, is just money that flows out of the country, lost. What does help is anything that gets to people who actually spend money here, things like unemployment and food stamps. This money is spent here and circulates.

But money is power. The more money little people have, the more their power, the more potential to thwart the few and the wealthy. The wealthy, who control all things, are not about to let this happen.

The mote in another person's eye. To JHK raised on tales of terror by christians aimed at his people, mostly true by the way and now the Middle East raised on tales of terror commited by people JHK finds common cause.

So is Iran the incubator of the next Hitler or not? So them "jesus terrorists" will find common cause with those on the West Bank who's yaweh genocide is pre-ordained and sponsored by Raytheon and IMI (Israeli Military Industries).

I have no answers. But one thing must happen, POLITICAL CORRECTNESS MUST DIE all the myths of the 20th century must go and I mean everyone of them, even the ones that will get you arrested in Europe if you challenge them.

Regarding 'corporate personhood', good article here: "How Citizens United Twisted Decades of Legal Precedent to Empower Corporations" http://bit.ly/b2t7Kf

Yes, Qshtik, you picky old thing, you are absolutely right but I thought it was rather amusing that kulturcritic, who is living in Russia, used the word ruble instead of rubble.

wonder if there is any connection between fu(ra)cking and the recent earthquakes that have occured...wait...in the vicinity... ?!

Thanks! I've added them to my Google Reader subscriptions.

Brilliant! Great plan of action. Thank you for the awesome reading material. Corporations are sociopaths.

Jim,

Great weekly commentary. We have discussed a third party, and how important the 2012 election is to get reality before the voters. It is obvious that neither the Democrats nor Republicans are capable of doing that. To be really effective, a third party has to be more than a presidential run. It needs strong grass roots, and that means senatorial and congressional races. It should also include gubernatorial candidates as well. If our future is going to be more local, we need people at the state level who can put together ideas and programs. Real change is from the bottom up, not the top down. If nothing else the OWS and other like movements across the country have brought people of different backgrouns together in a common cause. We need to build on that. Viva the 99%!

Steve Knox

"What needs fixing has to be done within the legal framework. Violence just plays to the ruling party's favour and the reforms never happen." -GG5

Sez you.
Others opinions may vary. ;o)

(I agree on staying frosty and stocking up; always a good notion, thanks.)

Occupy Earth- Stop Raping Our Mother!

found a copy in an old box of books when i moved in back in the 90s...pissed off, scared, and perplexed about how something so obvious in hindsight could be perpetrated...and have not met since anyone who d heard of it glad at least i aint the only one...

kulture kritic s post this week (link above, of course) is quite thought provoking, and well worth the time- and the take on rule of law is, i think, germane to our discussion...

To SmokeyJoe:

Colin Powell lied to the world in his speech to the UN that led to the invasion of Iraq on false pretenses. His early military career included whitewashing the My Lai massacre.

He may deserve a few brownie points for whatever candor he showed after being a useful tool of Bush-Cheney, but to look to the man as a political savior-figure is utter folly.


I don't fault JHK for mentioning Bloomberg, even if it is grasping at straws and no answer, since he can't be bought because he is already a plutocrat. Bloomberg did show his true colors in his reaction to Oakland OWS closing the port, even briefly, since any hint of Euro-style general strikes scares the eleites; he also showed his truly banal style of evil in the speech reported by Matt Tiabbi. BTW, Bllomberg news is just the financial news option for the elites vs. CNBC for the boobs. More content, same moral vacuums and false paradigms.

I'm sure JHK will address the greece-farce soon. Looking forward to it.

Two points really struck me from Max-JHK show: 1) parallels to 1950's in current decrepit Dem-Rep ineptitude and endemic corruption; 2) Effect of OWS movement on 2012 conventions. Civil unrest while pending Iran WW3 scenario plays out could make 2012 a turning point, not for the better.

I was musing this weekend about another historical comparison--the early 20th century trust busting by TR et al of industrial trusts vs. the unchallenged ascendency of even more damaging financial trusts, looting on a post-industrial scale with only ineffectual griping by the 99% while the same anti-trust laws are still on the books but not being enforced. How far we have fallen in 100 years!

How can any 'civilization" survive without the rule of law?

Aside from massive propaganda from MSM, I sometimes wonder if the subversion of the elites to eradicate any element of fairness and morality can be directly linked to the (planned) transformation of all professions into corporate-fascist modeled "businesses) (law, medicine, academia etc.).

Jim,

I agree that Bloomberg is less than ideal. He does seem to be the best hope of the current lot if only in that he can be somewhat of a populist when pushed enough. His commitment to certain things sustainable in NYC are a positive predictor of possibilities (Janette Sadik-Khan at NYCDOT for one).

Your first paragraph defines clearly all the obstacles blocking effective response to our problems. Or I should say our choice of responses under perceived (aka distorted) ideas of what Democratic choice means in 2011 - notwithstanding corporate person hood and it's contrivances.

As luck would have it, I am hosting an event in Easton, Pa on Nov 18-19 that is our best chance to reframe the battle against these forces; solutions outside the confines of "well settled law" and other judicial nonsense that lead to the corporatocracy we accept as normal.

The Community Environmental Legal Defense Fund (CELDF) teaches a two-day Democracy School that strips away 150 years of law and lure we've been conditioned to believe. Getting outside the framework of the OSHAs, EPAs, SECs and other alphabet soup organizations allows us to focus on the real question: should we accept a regulated rate of destruction by the legal fictions called corporate entities?

Should we be happy being killed more slowly at pre-determined rates by toxins, abusive work policies and ecological destruction based on the mandates of these agencies or should we simply ban these corporate activities - both by making their practices illegal and by further defining the issue by failing to recognize corporations as persons under the law - at the local level? The Home Rule Charter form of government is the first step toward achieving local self-governance, which Easton passed four years ago. It allows municipalities to write their own local Constitutions.

This is what will be discussed by twenty leading citizen activists and city administrators at the Easton event this month. Jim, I spoke to Duncan about CELDF's Dem. School at the after-party in Buffalo during last month's National Trust Conference. He is more than welcome to cover it for the podcast. You have an open invitation as well if your schedule allows. CELDF's website states the following goal;

"Helping community groups and municipalities write and adopt laws that assert community rights, including the right to local self-government, the rights of nature, and the subordination of corporate privilege to the rights of the community."

It is a given - and also stated at the CELDF website - that there can not be any hope of creating sustainable communities for a difficult future without establishing local self-governance. As a classic example of what is needed today, CELDF uses the difference between regulatory coercion and constitutional change. The abolitionist movement never lobbied for better treatment of slaves; not better food or housing or work hours. They simply rejected outright the idea of human beings as private property.

Jim, this is the route we must take today in fighting corporate person hood and property rights if we are to preserve and resurrect all the things you have described that have been lost in our suburban wasteland these many past decades.

NONE DARE CALL IT TREASON was being sold in the 1960s in all the local stores I visited. The author, John Stormer, did not blame the usual suspects right-wing/conservatives/WASPs like to blame: Catholics, Jews, and the like; Stormer blamed communist sympathizers. The commies!

Since the USSR no longer exists, and Vietnam and "Red China" are our trading partners, the "commie threat" is non-existent and Stormer's book is irrelevant now.

Here's a concise description of Powell's role in covering up My Lai and similar massacres of civilians:

"As an Army officer, Powell's superiors considered him a consummate "team player." They could count on Powell to haul their water despite any contradictory feelings he may have had. Powell's blind loyalty was demonstrated during a second tour in Vietnam (1968-1969), where as deputy assistant chief of staff for operations G-3 at Americal Division headquarters in Chu Lai, he was asked to handle a potentially embarrassing letter a young soldier had written to Gen. Creighton Abrams, commander of all U.S. forces in Vietnam.

The soldier had written about rumors of a massacre that Americal Division soldiers had committed in the hamlet of My Lai 4 in South Vietnam. Although he did not mention My Lai in the letter, the soldier complained that Americal soldiers were indiscriminately killing Vietnamese civilians. Such acts, the young soldier warned, "are carried on at entire unit levels and thereby acquire the aspect of sanctioned policy."

Several days after he received a copy of the letter, Powell sent a memo to his superior, the adjutant general, making the outrageous claim that the young soldier had not given enough specifics upon which to base an inquiry. The purposely blind Powell said the soldier's charges were false except for "isolated instances." He wrote that "relations between American soldiers and the Vietnamese are excellent." Powell's damage control efforts soon proved fruitless and the My Lai massacre burst onto the world stage like an atomic explosion, severely damaging the U.S. war effort in Vietnam. On the orders of Lt. William Calley, soldiers from the U.S. Army Americal Division had indeed indiscriminantly gunned down an entire village of men, women and children.

Although Powell's attempt to cover up the massacre was unsuccessful, he had at least proven his willingness to do what was necessary to please his bosses."

Found at http://www.usvetdsp.com/story13.htm (I don't necessarily subscribe to the apparent agenda of this web site.)

"Having lived for a couple decades in a 'backward' agricultural area of Costa Rica, I get daily insights into the resilience of my neighbors and am left shaking my head at the woeful inadequacy of "Americans"--and residents of other developed countries--to retool their lives, their societies and their expectations to the long emergency which is enveloping them, chapter by riveting chapter."

I just came back from Oaxaca, Mexico, and I came to the same conclusions about the residents there as you have about the Costa Ricans and about our fellow Americans. They're better prepared for the local future than we are and can adapt more easily, as they are more resourceful and haven't lost their survival skills, while we have gone soft and become ignorant about our pre-industrial past.

As for your eco-village, I'll check it out.

Jim,
Long time reader of your's ( Long Emergency got me hooked). Hate to be picky, but Lawrence Kotikoff really is LAURENCE KOTIKOFF... I am sensitive because I have the same problem with my middle name. Thanks for spending the time you do to keep us all aware and pissed off.

Forget about a "savior" emerging. Won't happen. If such a person were to arise, he/she would be suicided post haste. Too many people would lose too much. Our salvation will be the collapse, unfortunately. If we were a saner, more rational, more considerate species then a different outcome might be possible. But, then, if that were the case, we probably wouldn't be in the pickle we currently are in.

Regarding Bernie Madoff - I see him as an angel of G-d. If you carefully analyze Madoff's actions you realize he is really similar to a Dr. Emil Bronner only under a different guise. Madoff swindled those who were secret swindelers themselves. He offered impossibly good returns to people who mostly should have known better. All the while he was "feeding" them their interest from their own pool of capital. What a hoot! A sort of financial Hannibal Lecter, feeding them their own brains! What a perfect scenario! And he knew he would ultimately be caught. So why did he do it? I view Madoff's actions as a position statement: his clients deserved no better. Incidentally, Picasso held his later clients in the same abject contempt. We should thank Madoff, in my opinion. He is paying the price for exposing the rot.

Speaking of Madoff, I saw a little blub in the entertainment corner of the news that DeNiro has signed on to portray him in an upcoming film.

Might be interesting.

Jim, you hit at the heart of much of what is moiling about in the poisonous soup out there. However, I must respectfully disagree with your hopeful comments about the likes of a Mike Bloomberg as a third party spoiler.

Matt Taibbi's most recent posting on this very subject attests to - and says in far more eloquent and accurate terms than I ever could - the true colors that Bloomberg flies.

http://www.readersupportednews.org/opinion2/275-42/8241-focus-mike-bloombergs-marie-antoinette-moment

As for any successful Third Party "messiah", unfortunately U.S. history has succinctly exhibited the rewards its society reserves for individuals with truly progressive postulations. Fictitiously think Warren Beatty's "Bulworth"

Let me deal first, as is my custom, with form before substance.

FORM:

Jim said: It also happens that Bloomberg is neither a Republican or a Democrat

Although it is considered old fashioned, I much prefer nor rather than or in a neither/nor type sentence. It makes the point so much more strongly.

Who was the Supreme Court kidding when they proposed in 2010 that corporations have a personal stake in politics.

Was it by accident or on purpose that Jim ended this question with a period rather than a question mark? His question was entirely rhetorical so perhaps it should be treated as a statement ending with a period. Interesting ... I have never thought about this before. This bears further research.

SUBSTANCE

Chicago in 1968 was nothing compared to what might go down in Charlotte, NC (Democrats) and Tampa, FLA (Republicans) in 2012.

I can hardly believe it ... it's been 42 years. For those too young to remember the '68 conventions I recommend Miami and the Siege of Chicago by Norman Mailer. Not long before I had spent a couple of months as a member of an audit team in Chicago and we stayed at a hotel/motel (I forget its name) directly across the street from the huge (732 room, I believe it was) Conrad Hilton Hotel. The bar and lounge was at ground level looking out on Michigan Ave. Mailer's description of a man being hurled through the plate glass of this lounge where I'd spent many an evening trying to "get lucky" brought home to me the violence that went down in Chicago that summer. But beyond this reminiscence, I just don't see the potential for violence in venues like Tampa and Charlotte vs the much larger and more volatile cities of Miami and Chicago. I've spent time in all four places and have some feel for their dynamic. But who knows, I didn't see the OWS movement lasting beyond the World Series.

After all, corporations have no allegiance whatsoever to the public interest, only to their shareholders and boards of directors.

I am extremely wary of what is termed "the public interest." Invariably it turns out to be someone else's idea of what is good for me than my own idea.

Many people, in my view, have a badly distorted and dangerous view of "freedom." They are very much against both flesh-and-blood persons and so-called corporate persons being free to act on their own behalf rather than for the public interest (reference discussion yesterday with Bustin J). As much as I dislike her ham-handed writing style, this issue was at the heart of all Ayn Rand's writings. Are we or are we not free to be selfish?

But your perception of where this will lead is certainly no more valid than mine, yet I don't attack you for your ideas, do I?
-----------------------------------------
Couple of things here Tripp,

"you" and your "ideas" are not one and the same, (at least the the basis I operate from) so questioning (not attacking) your ideas isn't personal,IMO. Questioning, BTW, is sort of what this blog is all about isn't it? At least it would be damned boring without it. Otherwise, it's just a place to make extravagent pronouncments without any possible response.

Second, I think my view is that a wide range of economic/social/environmental outcomes are possible (some good, some not), similar to the way life usually unfolds. You seem to be quite sure a narrow outcome is assured, so that is quite different I think, and justifies a greater degree of scrutiny. Keep in mind, I've even said your POV has merit, and is a possible outcome.

The "what does that sound like....?" comment was of course, alluding to the way that views which are held that are not subject to qenuine questioning are similar to religion. That would be true whether you were holding those views about PO, religion, or the infallible varacity of scientific materialism.

So, don't take it personally, and feel free to question my ideas anytime you want. I'm doing my best to question my own views as often as possible, and I'm not interested in being, or being characterized as, a member of either polar extreme. IMO, both science, and what is now called meta-physics (or religion) both have value, when not carried to the logical extremes people seem to naturally and unfortunately want to go.

Are we or are we not free to be selfish?

-------------------

You most certainly are free to be selfish in your personal life, but not when the public interest is involved. Selfishly eat both your cereal and your wife's cereal if you want, but don't tear up the street in front of your house because the color of the pavement offends you. That would be against public interest. Capish?

There is no knight in shining armor who will come to save the system. What we've got - this whole unworkable load of bullshit is unreformable. It's rotten to the core and it pervades every level. The only solution is to let it collapse. And it will not be pretty. Only then will something better be able to take its place.

Mike Hunt

Hi Helen
Great "gotcha" question, but I will try to give an answer. Mainly the reason I am not out on the streets is because in between rubbernecking our world disaster, now in progress, and downing the popcorn, I am doing my bit to prepare for likely outcomes. That means watching the world situation closely is part of that effort. My family has moved to a much smaller abode, we consume much less than we did in the past, we have paid attention to our finances and have made good progress, we have garden plans for spring in the works, etc... In short I am taking care of my business. Good enough for you? If not oh well.

Also, I feel the big cities and large crowds are not a smart place to be at this time. While I admire the OWS folks and applaud their efforts, I think the national situation is a big powder keg ready to blow. I don't want to be in the middle when it does. Things will collapse and go to hell just the same, regardless, if I am in the middle of all the action or not.

Besides, the OWS folks seem oblivious of some current events that have much more serious consequences than our very serious financial pickle. What can they be? Well how about the ongoing nuclear disaster at Fukushima, that has recently been reported to have resumed criticality in reactor 2. This "nuclear volcano" is spewing out murderous radiation on a daily basis. It might be nice if someone in authority addressed this situation and organized an effective response to minimize the world irradiation. TEPCO and Japan's response has so far bordered on criminally incompetent/insane. That's just one example, I won't drone on too much.

So, everyone is doing what they feel is important for them. Determining what is important in these crazy times is quite difficult. I muddle along as best I can and try to tend to my business. Besides:) I like popcorn.

have a great day!

A Lie. Gary Allen blamed the Bankers and the nascent New World Order. The Communists are their dupes. No? Then who funded them? It takes alot of money to overthrow nations - peasants armed with pitchforks don't get anywhere.

Mr Allen, like the John Birch Society as a whole, always bent over backwards not to point out that the Bankers are largely Jewish, although there is obviously a powerful Gentile contingent in other areas of the NWO. Was this discretion appreciated? No, Mr Kunstler called them a bunch of Nazis. Unbelievable.

kulturcritic, who is living in Russia
=============

Had I been aware of that I might have let him/her slide on the ruble goof.

"When Richard Heinberg suggested that the response to the ongoing tumult was to start an eco-village, I, for one, took the ball and ran with it. www.puebloverde.org"

You are brave and brilliant for doing so, too.

My wife and I will be heading for the mountains of North Georgia on Wednesday to look for a plot on which to build our final home. Been practicing permaculture for 3 years, but just recently got re-energized about natural building techniques. We are really excited about hand-sculpting a cob cottage on a couple of acres, and maybe picking up a few surrounding plots to hold for like-minded folks as they come along.

We need community, and I hope we still have enough time, here in the States, to get it worked out. But it's a stretch. Best of luck to you.

Some of Madoff's clients were just regular upper middle class people. Innocent? No one is - but certainly not guilty per se. Let's call them naive.

You are correct about Picasso - a business man. A one man factory. Many of his pieces took a couple of minutes to create - and it shows. But people want to be known as being great connoseurs and are willing to pay top dollar for the privledge. They did deserve the crap they got and the contempt they earned.

"Only then will something better be able to take its place."

Or, we could just go ahead and start extracting ourselves from the mainframe now, reap all the benefits of a simpler life ahead of schedule, and be a whole lot more prepared for any sudden jolt to the system. Luck will probably play a role in whether or not that is enough, but I'd rather take my chances adapting to a lower energy way of life while I still have the luxury of failure.

Since the USSR no longer exists, and Vietnam and "Red China" are our trading partners, the "commie threat" is non-existent and Stormer's book is irrelevant now.
==============

The "commie threat" is non-existent because "the USSR," Vietnam, and China are now raging capitalists.

Here's an interesting question: if the public has to pay for public health insurance, should the public be forced to be healthy - even against their will? Ban smoking all together? Make people go walking or jogging? If a person doesn't show up for the daily jerks, the neighborhood coordinator goes to their residence to inquire after their well being? If they refuse to participate, should a goon squad go in and drag them out and have them jog over to the hospital?

You see it's quite a bit more complicated than you think. People are unequal in their committment to health. Why should the wise be compromised by the lazy and gluttonous?

"Selfishly eat both your cereal and your wife's cereal if you want..."

Truth be told, the act of eating cereal is probably fundamentally unsustainable, and therefore selfish, in its own right. But that usually comes waaay later in the conversation! Carry on.

Tripp, congratulations on your moves to become independent.

A cob house is an excellent opportunity to build community. Invite everyone you know to help you.

Even kids can stomp the mud mix on a tarp, and anyone who can lift a fistful of mud in their hands can help in the building. We are helping a young couple who are building a cob house and friends have rallied around... kind of like an old-fashioned barn-raising. Great community building experiences.

Time to go hang out some laundry. Gave up the clothes drier 2 years ago, and my wife floored me the other day when she said she was ready to start using a wringer washer when we move to the mountains!! By the time we get there I'm not sure I'll have to run any wiring or plumbing at all! What a ride this has been!

Are we or are we not free to be selfish?
==

You are not. Nor should you be.

What you have today is an absurd inversion, where a relatively small clique of people through illegitimate control of various institutions, are able to manipulate the whole structure of the State for their exclusive benefit and selfishness.

What you need in the US is a true democracy and a true awareness that would limit or eliminate altogether the monopolies, the gamed fraud, the propaganda theater, and other machinations put on by the fascist elite. A democratic consensus to eliminate all State institutions, including the central bank and central currency, as these are the source of subsidy and power for the fascist elite and their monopolies.

Tripp, you raise a valid point. Work is ongoing to establish methods for selecting varieties, lines and populations, and to develop ways to increase and make use of crop diversity and genotype-environment interactions to ensure stable and acceptable yields of good-quality crops for low-input, especially organic cereal production in Europe.

There is an increasing demand throughout Europe for sustainable crop production characterised by reduced inputs of pesticides and synthetic fertilizers (low-input cropping systems) and increased agricultural biodiversity.

Horticulture, it ain't... but at least there is some awareness of what industrial agriculture is doing and how to mitigate consequences.

"These two giant, useless, political bucket shops need to be put out of business and something else has to take their place."

Why does something need to take their place?

Too much "gist in the mill" to comment on this week. However, countrygirl got it right in that for the past century most meaningful change in North America at least has come from the bottom up rather than top down. Politicans or leaders carrying the ball only after the ground swell becomes too big to ignore. Having said that in this outpost of the Empire (Canada) There is a third party which is pushing for a quasi-change in the sense of more corporate taxes, social justice,environmental regulation etc. as adocated in moondog's blog. How far this can and will go will be interesting to watch. The OWS movement is a "wedge" issue for them as some wish to endorse the OWS movements' goals and others wish to pursue the more conventional political route which would result in smaller incremental changes. Either way for the first time in Canada's history a "third party" is the offical opposition and could form government in the next election. This has not gone unnoticed as the corporate media has lauched assaults on them. The indication is that even the small quasi change they represent is a threat to the status quo. Remember Canada is to the U.S. what Poland was to the old Soviet Union; a semi independent state. (or Gaul to Rome if you like old historical anologies) And we all remember what the Polish Solidarity movement resulted in! In other words the forces of change be they OWS or even more conventional ones need to be prepared for a "push back" like they have not seen before.

Folks, I just got smacked in the face with some bizarre reality this morning while waiting for Jim's column to post.
On a whim, I decided to type "American Spectator" into my browser to see what the conservative types were saying about the OWS movement.
The articles concerning OWS were negative to the point of hysteria. That was rather to be expected. But the comments from our brothers and sisters who make up the conservative portion of the 99% really floored me.
The vitriolic criticism expressed by these flag waving, status quo supporting, Republican party insider wannabes with 3 mortgages on their trailers was really acidic. They even referred to the folks out there fighting for THEIR best interests as "dirty, smelly hippies"!
It jarred me into a stark reality. The corruption in government we could deal with. The corporations could eventually be reigned in again. The elites could be made to see that even they cannot export our jobs at will when the workforce is united and organized.
But these evangelical NASCAR freaks living in the '50s are another story! They actually see everything the OWS movement is trying to do as a communist plot against their beloved land of the free. THEY are the ones we'll never convince of the truth, until we pry their guns from their cold, dead fingers.
And right now, those guns can't wait to sight us in for disagreeing with their holy icons, the military-industrial-congressional complex.

Beyond the signs on sidewalks to concrete action.

Move your money - its the only language they understand. A mass move would pop these banks like the inflated gasbags they really are.

Stop buying Chinese crap, buy less crap overall and seek out durable American made goods to meet basic needs.

Start using more cash, silver and barter and less plastic - the 1% rake 3.5% off the top of every transaction - its a voluntary national sales tax.

Sign some of the many excellent Petitions at the new "We the People" page (Whitehouse.gov) and start one of your own.

Take GOD off our money and go back to the original motto (E Pluribus Unum). It was only changed in 1956 due to the Cold War/McCarthyite madness. Making money our GOD is the root of the problem, even Roosevelt thought it was sacreligious.


Hillary?

Remember Bill's sellout of the American working man with NAFTA?

Then there's this

www.prorev.com/connex.htm

It’s probably safe to assume that the looming 2012 financial meltdown is probably going to be severe enough to make the 2008 meltdown look like a dress rehearsal in comparison. If so, it’s unlikely that the now familiar political rhythms will have even a notional resonance with that reality.

SISA Status Report No. 1: Perseverance brings Good Fortune

http://www.Thesisa.org/

Form must follow subsance for as Paul said, the Spirit saves but the letter killeth.

Did you get lucky? Or just Pozo? Was it lucky for the lady too? Say it lucky several times - your consciousness will change since it's a vulgar word. Fortune is so much more dignified and significant. Listen to O Fortuna for clarification.

We have the right to be selfish, but only up to a point. The Goverment must step in at some point if the people are irresponsible. That is not an arbitrary law but a Law of Nature. Some degree of paternalism is necessary to have a decent society. It can be minimized by personal responsibility. Say a elderly person can't take care of themselves anymore - and they don't have the money for private care. So they either get taken care of by their children or the State. Or would you rather they die on the street?


Zanrak,j

The value of Ron Paul is not in his electability but in his ability to introduce the memes of withdrawing our troops and reforming our private banking system to the masses of Republicans who might not otherwise give it much thought.

Of course he won't win the nomination. His value is in rubbing the GOP's face in the mess that they support.

This Democrat is registering Republican just to vote for Ron Paul. I urge you to do the same.

"I don't think it possible at this point to legislate a change in the corporate personhood doctrine,.."

Why go to the trouble? You were made a "person" {corporation} when your parents applied for a birth certificate. When ever you receive communications in all CAPS and ignorantly respond to it {as if it were you} you are acting like it is you. Equity Law.

You should do what they are doing, move all your debts over to the strawman, let it crash and burn, and walk away with what remains of your wealth.

Never respond to or ask anything of Babylon, the rest of your natural born life.

Has your situation with the elderly couple turned sour?

I saw that book at the Conference, it looks great. Build you own hobbit house!

The Conference was inspiring but overwhelming. Between very general introductions and the hard brass details, there is very little. There is crying need for a Community College course based on Holmgren's 12 Principles. A more serious College Course could be based on The Book and Mollison's 12 or 24 principles. Each principle could be fleshed out by examples and case studies. Both types of course could also benefit from field trips.

If corporations are "people", then aggrieved individuals should sue them frequently in small claims court where lawyers are not allowed.

Never respond to or ask anything of Babylon, the rest of your natural born life.

======================

And never use Babylon built roads. Never drink pure water made safe by Babylon. Never take waste to Babylon waste-treatment plants. Never use Babylon licensed air waves to listen to radio. Never use the Babylon-created internet... Whoops!

My five year old just asked me what

"the Ponziconomy" is...?

From the mouth of babes.

???????

Seriously??? JHK has never heard of the Green Party, formed in opposition to money-driven politicians?

Get corporate money out of politics? That's a Green Party policy, and has been since its founding.

Stop war? Non-violence is one of the four key values, along with environmental wisdom, which every Green knows means stopping fossil fuel burning.

Bring back Glass Steagall? Actually, we need a complete overhaul of our monetary system, and a Tobin tax, just for starters, both part of the Green Party platform.

Someone has already stepped forward, and is starting to run a campaign, Jill Stein.

http://www.jillstein.org/

Don't diss the Greens! Of course, we're a small party. That's because we don't have corporate backing. You can't have it both ways.

In a country in which the Dems and Repubs compete to sell the government to the highest corporate bidder (and I'm quoting John McCain here), any party which doesn't take corporate funds is destined to be small and struggling.

It would be much for helpful to join in and help with people power, not sit on the sidelines and snidely sneer at the struggle of non-corporate funded campaigns.

Has Jim then renounced the Democratic Party? If so, bout time. But since the Zionists control our banking, media and foreign policy, it doesn't matter which Party gets in, even if it is a conventional Third Party. Vote Ron Paul - they hate him and there's good reason for that; reasons that are good for us.

Great vocabulary words this week Jim, especially "catamites", which means homosexual child prostitutes. I first read that word in "Island", by Peter Benchly, author of "Jaws", in reference to a surviving colony of English pirates culturally stuck in the 17th century, on a Caribbean Island, who were still attacking yachts.

The idiotic political polarization which obtains in this country is caused in part by our low voting turnout. Perhaps we need to require that everyone goes to the polls to vote as they are in Australia, the foreign country most like the United States according to a recent article in the New York Times. Of course the Republicans wouldn't like that, because they benefit from lower turnout, which is why they are pushing for stricter regulations pertaining to photo I.D.s for voters in order to prevent "fraud". For "fraud" substitute "poor people voting their economic self interest".

People will be ready for radical change only after the current regime has collapsed. And by collapsed I mean an unambiguous global economic depression which has essentially flattened capitalism forcing urgent collective action in order to forestall massive starvation in the developed countries. As it stands right now there is still too much room for people to continue to inhabit their own little solipsistic bubbles of false egotistical optimism.

I've been thinking along the same lines. Why should the Churches have anything to do with State Marriage - which destroys families by empowering women over men? Why not just do private marriages with no license involved? Could it be that they are afraid of losing their tax free status?

I joined transfer day.

I'm in for the Tampa version. Bring a helmet. Bring some pads -- you never know.

Don't diss the Greens! Of course, we're a small party. That's because we don't have corporate backing.
---------------------------------------
In some respects I like the "Green Manifesto" or whatever they call it. But I just can't buy into all that politically correct social stuff.

I hope OWS maintains a focus on the economic issues and stays out of the social arena.

We are really excited about hand-sculpting a cob cottage on a couple of acres
-------------------------------------------
That is definitely you, baby!

So after carving out the wealth of the country, destroying the economy, we are now going to frack ourselves in a last ditch desperate attempt to keep the music going?

We are going to confront Peak Oil on a land base polluted with uranium tailings, chemical pesticides and thousands of tons of high level nuclear waste. If we ruin the fresh water resource as well we are truly "fracked".

I've been in the same room with Jill - she's a mousy little nerd. Why don't you run Wilma Man Killer again?

I've never heard you utter, pen, or click much of anything wasn't PC. So could you give some examples?

"IMO, both science, and what is now called meta-physics (or religion) both have value"

Yeah? Well, try running your car or household electrical system on faith in Jesus, and then we'll talk about their comparative value. ;-)

Never got this notion of "saving" the Earth. If the CO2 level increased above human habitation, would the earth care? Maybe the earth would even "like" it better, more room for trees afterall....

On that same thought....it often seems the people who least like other people, most want to "save" the earth, if they don't like people who are they saving it for?

"Of course, the first order of business is to get corporate money out of politics. Are we capable of doing that?"

Not a snowball's chance in hell. As you've stated, we've gone in exactly the opposite direction lately.

I saw a little blub in the entertainment corner of the news
==========

blub Hahaha, some typos are funnier than others.

Yeah? Well, try running your car or household electrical system on faith in Jesus, and then we'll talk about their comparative value. ;-)
--------------------------------------------
You're just so practical aren't you?

I know how to make you crazy; "man does not live on bread alone", or in Tripp's case, apparently he doesn't live on bread at all.

Hi Outpost, I'm sitting here in Upper Canada enjoying your analysis of the political situation here with the NDP. I agree with your prediction of a massive push-back from those who would oppose any hint of progressive thinking. When the NDP won Ontario in 1990 there were nasty billboards up in Toronto denouncing them as socialists within weeks and the onslaught never stopped. Big Money was horrified at the thought of losing even a little control.

And reading the comments of Wandering Bear, I agree with him too about the utter impossibility of talking any sense into the tea party types.

So if Big Money doesn't get us, the Wingnuts will. Push-back indeed. To the max.

I went to Max Keiser.com to hear the show so many people have mentioned and couldn't find it.

Where is it?

Dale, I guess "Save the biosphere" just isn't as catchy.

As George Carlin said, "The earth isn't going anywhere. We are."

JHK for President! Good post, good ideas.

"Metaphysics is almost always an attempt to prove the incredible by an appeal to the unintelligible." Henry Louis Mencken

I much prefer being engaged in the real world and all that entails. It is fascinating and engaging enough without recourse to faith-based hallucinations for sustenance.

Corporations are sociopaths. They need to be tasered!

According to the DSM-IV the major component of this disorder is “the reduced ability to feel empathy for other people".

In this economy large corporations turn their American workers into permatemps. Fast cycling of herds of cheap benefit free permatemps before unemployment claims can acquire enough months to count saves the rat-bastards even more money.
Screams from lives ruined as middle class jobs fall away are unheard as the new broken unemployed simply disappear, life in America.

Tasering is not good enough for these people. As legal persons corporation need to be locked down and trussed up like Hannibal Lecter.

Has anyone looked at Dmitry Orlov's suggestions. they seem rather agreeable to me.

I watched an anti-drug (legal drugs, that is) movie, and there was a part where this family talked about the death of their child.

She was 16 or so, and she got nervous when she had to take a test at school. Her doctor diagnosed her problem as "test anxiety", and gave her Prozac.

She killed herself.

An increase in suicide is a side effect of anti-depressants, as it happens. And they knew it.

And the FDA knew it, before they approved it.

The interesting thing about this child is that she was friends with the daughter of one of the FDA board who approved Prozac!

Did it make him feel bad? I don't know.

I know that it took more than a decade for them to do something about it.

What did they do? Put a Black Box warning out.

Yep, I'm sure that that is as effective as the warnings on the cigarette packages.

"man does not live on bread alone"
=============

Biblical quotes used to have more zing to them. I recall the above as "Man doth not live by bread alone."

The post from the person in Pennsylvania talking about fracking and what it's doing to them really got to me. The Alberta tar sands will be just as bad and it's all for nothing, nothing at all.

Cue Bob Dylan: A Hard Rain's Gonna Fall

Sooner than we think I suspect as financial and environmental collapse collide and their combined effects bring the whole civilization thing crashing down.

You seem surprised for some reason.

Wow, Jim, you speak a lot of truth in this post. Your two strongest sentiments:

"Corporations are sociopaths. They need to be tasered!" (Why haven't I heard this suggestion before? Perfect.)

and ...

"This winter will be the Occupy Movement's Valley Forge." (A daunting, even chilling, yet inspiring thought ... )

Damn right he needs help! Cob is very difficult to mix.

I took to using horse manure instead of straw. Easier to mix, since it was already digested into small pieces.

Still, I never finished, because it was too exhausting to do. And the internet was invented.

ZANRAK: would you care to elaborate? What makes RP an idiot?

Well, you need running water even with a wringer washer.

Unless your wife also agreed to go down to the river and start the washing there.

Man doth not live
------------------------
Humm....yes, well maybe in "your day" people went around saying "doth", but anon....it ain't happenin' in the Web age, old dude.

In some respects I like the "Green Manifesto" or whatever they call it. But I just can't buy into all that politically correct social stuff.
=================

I haven't read it yet but the NY Times has an Op-Ed page article today titled The Dark Side of the 'Green' City. The highlighted sentence is "Not everyone can afford low-carbon living."

Yes we are free to be selfish. And we can all see where that has gotten us, can't we.

Q nailed the gestalt of America today.

Isn't it just OK to be selfish? What's so wrong with that?

It amazes me that the pro-fracking, pro-tarsands, pro-mountain-top removal ads are frankly and openly selfish and short sighted.

They brag that "we" have 20 years left of ...(fill in the blank) and "we" (fill in the corporation) are responsibly getting that energy for you, the consumer.

So what happens after 20 years? Is that really so long?

What happens when the fossil fuels are gone, and so are the mountains, the rivers, the aquifers and the springs?

Seriously? We don't have to think about 20 years from now, or future generations? It's OK to be selfish and go for that coal, or gas, or oil and screw the environment and future generations, including us, 20 years from now? (I expect to still be here, although that may be optimistic, what with the radiation spewing from Fukiyama, while Obama proposes building more nuclear power plants in the US, with taxpayer money, of course).

Ayn Rand said so, so it must be OK.

Not just corporations are sociopaths.

"I hope OWS maintains a focus on the economic issues and stays out of the social arena."

Economic and social issues are basically one and the same. Need I explain why?

Dear Dale,
Did you post here earlier this year that this Blog had wandered too far from the Issue of Peak Oil?

To the people defending right wing Christianity- not only is it very possible that Christians have more dead bodies in their pile than any other religion, the right wing Christians in this country are blood-thirsty and ready to kill.

And the Air Force headquarters in Colorado Springs, which is also headquarters to James Dobson, and other extremely evil people, has, by some accounts, been infiltrated by crazy Christians.

If that doesn't scare normal people, I don't know what will.

'called them a bunch of Nazis. Unbelievable. '

Check crimesofthetimes/blogspot if you have not
yet done so, please.

I've been in "alternative" energy business for many years which encompasses a multitude of good stuff and nonsense too of course. However Krugman is correct that solar is now (without any subsidies either for fossil fuels or solar) economically viable even without considering the externalities of fossil fuels which are non trivial. It's not often mentioned that individual residential and light commercial pv systems are inherently redundant and result in distributed systems which require very little modification of our aging electrical grid infrastructure. Further there are very rapid developments in battery technology which will soon mean that storage and load management will vastly increase the viability of both solar and wind systems. Never thought I'd see it in my lifetime, maybe Kurzweil is correct the singularity is near and will save us, if it doesn't kill us first.

"Kurzweil is correct the singularity is near and will save us"

No, he just wants to bring his dead father back to life. The singularity is not near.

People in cities are healthier than people in the suburbs.

No one has to hassle them, or monitor them, or pass laws to make them exercise.

The built environment is such that people in cities walk more, are therefore healthier.

Proper zoning laws would make personal health laws unnecessary.

For what it is worth, I am going to the OWS protest and camping out for a week. I am traveling to and from my job from the protest (my work place has a shower). This isn't just for content for my blog (while I will write about it), or to make me feel good (it will be cold and wet and I hate crowds), but it is just about all I can do these days seeing how my writing online, signing various protest letters/etc, and trying to gather together my own house (third month in a row I come close to zero in the bank in all my accounts). I believe that many of those out there in the park are the lunatic fringe, but many more have jobs and homes and are trying to play the game that is stacked against us.
My own rants can be found at the usual space: schwerpunkter at wordpress dot com.

Wage

Max Keiser and his show can be found on the RT website at the bottom of the page, right side. He is an absolute hoot. He really tells it like it is, a refreshing commentator who is also good for a few laughs.

For everyone else here, as I said in my first post today, the "Western Democracies" have openly abandoned democracy. So all this discussion of the 2012 election is really sort of moot. The man or woman with the most money in the old campaign "war chest" will win, plain and simple. In other words the presidency will be bought by the 0.01 % --OK- everyone got that? And that bought and paid for minion will enact more policies to benefit those 0.01%. Any questions?

Yes, I have a question...

May I have more Cheez Doodles please?

Pretty interesting, Dennis.

Do I understand you to be saying that corporate charters should be abolished, and people going into business should do so under their own names and liability?

The other day I stopped by the local occupation (3 guys in a tent) and a Ron Paul libertarian was there haranguing them about what their demands should be.

Interestingly, he was advocating the overthrow of Citizens United, which I didn't know was a Ron Paul position.

I stated my position, which is that there should be no government-issued license to do business without accountability, and the right winger and the left winger both looked at me with shock and horror.

(And I didn't even say anything about sharia law!)

They literally couldn't imagine an economic system without giant vampire squid corporations, although, of course, they both chanted the mandatory american mantra about their preference for small local businesses.

Well, what better way to have local small and/or cooperatively run businesses than to cut off the multi-national corporate monsters that run the planet?

Get a solar bike with wing like panels attached. Be careful now to ride too close to Sun. Moon Ok of course.

" And his gift was the laughter of one heart to another"

:) Nope just popcorn over in this corner of clusterfuck world. ;)

You see it's quite a bit more complicated than you think. - Vlad to Asoka
===========

Way to go Vlad. You get right to the absurdity of trying to make everyone his brother's keeper.

Thank you, loveday, and I did enjoy your comment about the open hostility the "international democracies" showed to Papendreu and his inartful offer to open up an important national question to the people affected. The nerve!

I have listened to Max Keiser before and I enjoy him immensely.

Have you tried "Guns and Butter"? It is very good.

I think that lbendet recommended the Catherine Austin Fitts one.

I have also brought the idea of communities investing their pension funds in local initiatives, especially power-supplying ones.

Anyone who ever played Monopoly knows that power is a good investment.

Why can't my city use its workers (who drive around a lot in pickup trucks) to install solar panels on each house, with a connection to the local power co-op, so that power can be sold to the company? And the money gained could be used to fund the workers retirement, instead of gambling on Wall Street?

Pension funds could also be used to insulate and repair each house. The less power used, the more sold back.

Instead, they "invest" the funds on Wall Street, and then tell us taxes must be raised to make up the losses.

In 1994, when Orange Country went bankrupt because the manager had invested on Wall Street and the stocks went down, it was considered a major scandal. Now it's accepted practice!

It reminds me of when it was revealed that the CIA had assassinated foreign leaders. It was a major scandal, and laws were passed to prevent it from happening again

Now Obama brags about assassinating foreign leaders, and even US citizens, and the likes of asoka hold him up for praise!

Unbelievable!

Zandrak, I looked at that "expose". In my opinion these allegations are invalid. All the arguments are based on the following fallacy: group X receives privileged treatment from the state. RP opposes government granting special privileges. Therefore RP is hostile towards group X.
RP's philosophy of liberty and constitutional government is based on the basic premise that the only legitimate purpose of government is the protection of life and liberty. As soon as individuals or groups start to attempt to harness the power of the state to obtain special privileges at the expense of their fellow citizens, you end up in an arms race for political influence. In the end everybody looses, because more effort is expended on manipulating the spoils system than on productive, wealth-producing activities.

"I much prefer being engaged in the real world and all that entails."

So, the homes that are rehabbed for the homeless by church based organizations, the soup kitchens to feed the hungry, the thrift shops to clothe the less fortunate the visitors at senior centers who visit those without friends or surviving relatives, those activities aren't "real world?" You my son, are living in the dream world.

Now Obama brags about assassinating foreign leaders, and even US citizens, and the likes of asoka hold him up for praise!

Unfair Wage.

I have called for Obama to be tried in the ICC as a war criminal. I have criticized Obama's drone murders in all caps (now the drones are killing USA soldiers as well) for years now. I have said Obama's Nobel Peace Prize should be taken away.

Personal foul. 15 yard penalty. Still first down.

The Occupy Movement in many American and Canadian cities is already showing signs of weakness as the idealists are either pushed out or become outnumbered by the mentally ill, hard-core drug users, homeless youth and anyone else drawn by the prospect of free housing, food and medical services. The recent drug-related death of a 23 year-old woman at Occupy Vancouver following a number of drug overdoses at Occupy Vancouver, the violence at the Oakland ports, and the disillusionment voiced by many former Occupy protesters that the movement still has no coherent agenda is leading many to believe that the Occupy movement has outlived its' welcome. God only knows what will take its place as the initial burst of optimism and idealism that greeted the movement's arrival is replaced by the realities of life in an Occupy encampment, Here's hoping the brighter minds in the movement are able to translate their political passion into a movement that can change the Democratic party from within.

"shame them"

Get real. They do not care what you or I think of them. They have the power and the money. That is all they care about.

"Never use the Babylon-created internet... Whoops!"

Did you let the cat out of the bag?

They are government churches, so Yes...

http://www.hisholychurch.org/study/gods/cog1mvm.php

Mr. Kunstler:
How about a fifth order of business, i.e. those able-bodied souls who don't produce, don't eat?
The uber-welfare state is right behind the war empire in bankrupting us as a nation.

Not really. Bondholders (those holding debt) have been promised a specified percentage of return along with the return their initial loan. Share holders are promised....nothing. Thats the deal. No likey, no play.
==================

I'm going out on a limb again. I say Mrs Beasley is Tootsie/Fabian back again under another guise.

Get real. They do not care what you or I think of them. They have the power and the money. That is all they care about.

LOL!

Fortunately, happiness does not require greate quantities of money or great quantities of power.

It is not necessary to worship at the altars of money and power to have a life in which each moment is diffused with joy. I am testifying.

. I have called for Obama to be tried in the ICC as a war criminal.
. I have criticized Obama's drone murders in all caps.
. I have said Obama's Nobel Peace Prize should be taken away.
=====================

. I have said "I like Obama 'as a person.'"
. I have quoted WW: "Do I contradict myself? Well then I contradict myself. I am large. I contain multitudes."

The call on the field is upheld ... loss of one time out.


Great Post Amigo.

Cheered me right up, as usual.

Yeah. Fuck Bloomberg.

"Portents of winter
and the toothless chatter
of flag-draped traitors

vies with a fog of lies
spread by Koch Brother messenger boys"
-JHK-

Hidden messages and poetry this week, JHK?
Most impressive - shades of Whitman and Thoreau? -
Or someone of more modern vintage, perhaps?

"As I walk through the valley of the shadow of death
I take a look at my life and realise there's none left
'Cause I've been brassing and laughing so long that
Even my mamma thinks that my mind is gone"
-Coolio-


Madoff swindled those who were secret swindelers themselves.
=================

This fallacy is dogma in the ranks of the OSWers ... that anyone who has anything got it illegally.

"Behind every great fortune lies a great crime"
Honoré de Balzac

"I hope OWS maintains a focus on the economic issues and stays out of the social arena."

Economic and social issues are basically one and the same. Need I explain why?
-------------------------------------
Oh no....something tells me I'm in for a long harrange on feminist economics or some similar topic. Is this payback?

Dear Dale,
Did you post here earlier this year that this Blog had wandered too far from the Issue of Peak Oil?
--------------------------------------------
Yes, I think what I was really getting at was it had wandered too far into insanity.

Can you toss me some numbers on this, I'm serious. I checked out a 25K array about 5 years ago and the payback was roughly 60 years without subsidy. Since the panels are only good for about 25 I wasn't too impressed. I've got a flat roof large enough for it, facing due south.

False start and delay of game.

Half the distance to the goal and a 5 yard penalty on ensuing kickoff.

"sustainable crop production characterised by reduced inputs of pesticides and synthetic fertilizers (low-input cropping systems) and increased agricultural biodiversity."

Tractors, pesticides, and fertilizers replaced people and produced a monster. The only way to get rid of the monster is to replace tractors, pesticides, and fertilizers with people.

I have several friends who work at the UGA Coastal Plains experiment station down here in sunny south Georgia, and every time I broach this subject their eyes just glaze over. Why do we keep the tractors employed and worry about diesel prices when so many humans are unemployed?

Oh yeah, because farm work is beneath them, and because we screwed up the food production infrastructure, and the American appetite, so badly it's hard to see a way out. And the hardest part of all for Americans is that it will be difficult! Everyone is looking for an answer that doesn't involve them getting sweaty and dirty, but it ain't there to be had.

You nailed it at the end. The only salvation is a massive shift from agriculture to horticulture, with an additional 75+% of the population returning to the soil. The quicker the better. Now doesn't that sound easy??

PS - I envy your experience in the earth building department. Hopefully in a couple of years I can be familiar with that feeling too.

"This fallacy is dogma in the ranks of the OSWers ... that anyone who has anything got it illegally."

Come on, Q, don't hate on the OWSers. They have a legitimate laundry list of complaints. Besides, we all know that you made your money morally. At the poker table.

Way to go Vlad. You get right to the absurdity of trying to make everyone his brother's keeper.
--------------------------------------------
Tik,
Are you Vlad's secret prison buttboy? Are you mincing around the cellblock in a cheerleader sweatshirt with a big V on the front? Has he carved a swastika in your forehead yet? Did I spell everything right?
--------------------------------------------
Psssst!! Buster J, this is how you launch a personal attack, don't try to dress it up with any bogus half-hearted attempts to address anything substantive. If you can't tell the difference between a tennis match and two guys blindly swinging away at each other with axes, just go with what you know.

(Prozac teen suicide):
"I know that it took more than a decade for them to do something about it.

What did they do? Put a Black Box warning out.

Yep, I'm sure that that is as effective as the warnings on the cigarette packages."

Well, there ya go, Wage.
That's the solution that "working within the system" will get you.
Were that my kid, things would get quite a bit more "old school". True understanding of the word "consequences" would be reached.

"This fallacy is dogma in the ranks of the OSWers ... that anyone who has anything got it illegally."
--------------------------------------------
Amazing isn't it? Tik, knows exactly what is going on in the "ranks" of the OSW (yes, ranks, their all ranked up over there, haven't you noticed?) . I'm just guessing maybe his source is Fox News, ya think?

"It looks like you're reiterating the platform you outlined in "My Tea Party" from July of 2010, minus the restrictions on immigration. While that will likely displease your more racist readers, it makes me happy."
-neon vincent-

OK, neon - so JHK was a racist in 7/10 and now he's not? No, no, that can not be right.

- So NOT mentioning immigration policy in one week's CFN post makes JHK NOT be racist. Even though JHK has never publicly changed his "My TEA Party" views??
No, no, that can not be right, either.

Deciding important public question on the basis of "it makes me happy" (TM Neon Vincent) does not seem right, either.

==============================
Seriously, neon, why is stating a position against "immigration," legal OR illegal -RACIST?
Why, neon, why?

How was the Coffee Party Platform developed?

Where does one go to suggest changes to it?

=========================

While we're talking about question platforms -
Does anyone on CFN know of a good website for ongoing discussion of the OWS "platform."

"How about a fifth order of business, i.e. those able-bodied souls who don't produce, don't eat?"

Just to play devil's advocate, I'm curious as to how you define "production." As an ecologist, when I think of production, I think of autotrophs - plants or phytoplankton, plus or minus a few others.

As a permaculturalist I think of a producer as someone whose annual activities sequester more carbon than they liberate, say a mob-grazer living a very simple life.

However, if by producer you mean someone who wakes up to an alarm, has a cup of coffee from halfway around the world, drives to work, eats a lunch of industrial food out; uses a computer, paper, pens, iPhone, fax, tech support, etc; manages a 401(k) plus private investments, watches TV, drinks, smokes, and pops a pill so he can sleep and get up tomorrow to do it all again, just so he can uphold the great American standard of what "productivity" looks like, then I'm afraid your idea of production is more the problem than the solution. Far more of a problem than a modest person living a modest life, drawing a little unemployment because he paid into the system while he was working and now really needs it, and trying to live a simpler life and find his niche as a vendor at the local farmers market.

Now, I understand that this isn't your archetype for someone on "welfare." It's much easier to hate them if you can envision them as fat, lazy, (probably brown-skinned), with 5 children, driving an Escalade, but those people are precious few. The typical UE/food stamp benefactor today is a formerly middle class couple, who had to sell their home for a loss, surrendered the vehicle they were making payments on, are about to default on their student loans, and are researching every nook and cranny they can find for a new life to make up for the one that got sucked into the CDS/CDO/REIT/offshoring black hole that the average Joe is protesting.

Want to find the people responsible for financially breaking the US? Look for people holding lots of money, asshole. People receiving public aid give every dollar of it back to the rentier class within the week. Why is this so hard to understand?

Oh wait, let me guess, you're not a member of the rentier class. Damn, that sucks, man.

Without knowing your specific circumstances it would be difficult for me to give you good numbers. I can say that 5yrs ago I was paying more than 4$/watt in panel prices and now I can purchase better products for about $1.50/watt, so the actual panels are roughly 1/3 of when you last checked. The other components IE inverters, racks, wiring, etc probably haven't changed much. Given the low panel prices ,federal and most state tax breaks it makes sense to price your system again today. Also would say that even though panels are generally warranted for 25yrs they will certainly last much longer.

Nope. Did you not congratulate Obama for supposedly assassinating Osama?

Did you not brag that the US managed to kill Ghaddafi (and thousands of Libyans) without one single US soldier being killed?

I think that you did. The reason that I brought you up is because you are the resident peace person, yet you have praised Obama for his illegal assassinations.

When the oil subsidies from the USSR ended, Cuba switched to organic agriculture, and offered land, seeds and training to anyone interested.

Ghaddafi did the same.

You are wrong to think that "Americans" don't want to get dirty. There are 300 million Americans, ranging from selfish Q, his shallow wife and dingbat mother-in-law, to many, many kids who want to go back to the land, but can't afford it.

If the US did land redistribution and support, we could quickly get back to local agriculture.

I know you're working on your version, and there are people around here working on it also.

As usual, there is no money, so it's difficult.

For agribusiness, there's billions.

Yeah, but if enough people vote for Ron Paul expecting that he won't win anyway and he does, the US could end up with a Christian theocracy. The man scares the shit out of me.

Nope. Did you not congratulate Obama for supposedly assassinating Osama?

=================

No, I called the members of Seal Team 6 murderers and war criminals, too. Where you gettin' this stuff, Wage?


Did you not brag that the US managed to kill Ghaddafi (and thousands of Libyans) without one single US soldier being killed?

I compared Bush's ability to wage war with Obama's and concluded that Obama was smarter, spent less money, and did not get 4,500 USA soldiers killed in Libya. I said, if there was to be any war, even a war I do not support, I am always glad when less human life is lost. I don't call that bragging. It is a simple wish that less human life, Libyan or American or anyone else, be lost in senseless war. It does not justify loss of Libyan lives at all and is not bragging.

That's a root offence preppy. For that you will have to take birth again - as a worm.

Careful Jim.

A lot of the people at the Occupies are TATTOOED.

(shudder)

Amazing isn't it? Tik, knows exactly what is going on in the "ranks" of the OSW
===============

WOWzer; I misspell OWSer and Dale follows right along and duplicates the error; Had his chance to nail me and blew it.

The highly offensive prevailing belief that having two or more nickels to rub together is proof in itself of illegal activity will cause nothing but pushback detrimental to their cause.

Bear writes:

" But these evangelical NASCAR freaks living in the '50s are another story! They actually see everything the OWS movement is trying to do as a communist plot against their beloved land of the free."

Have you ever read a transcript of a Limbaugh/Hannity tirade? These are not intellectual giants and yet they fill the philosophical/political cups of those you mentioned each and every day. To be a republican in 2011 is tantamount to wearing an imbecile dunce cap.

If the US did land redistribution and support, we could quickly get back to local agriculture.
=================

Yeah, if.

When this happens -- shortly after hell freezes over -- I will petition the reigning DICTATOR to have your spread be the first to be re-distributed. Being the goody-two-shoes that you are, you should be down wit dat.

Whew! Talk about DINGbats!

Notice how Obama always fares better against a specific GOP candidate as opposed to a generic one. Derrida might have termed this the power of the 'unmarked term'. Likewise, an OWS movement empowers itself in eschewing partisan politics while simultaneously declaring a manifesto.

Being taking for granted is not the dynamic of political leverage.

I watched Network last night; it didn't cause me to say what I'm about to say, but it reinforced the vehement hatred for everything fascist (read American government and the corporations) that we have no way to escape on a daily basis. So here you have it: I truly wish Al Qaeda would return--on the State of the Union address--with a big enough bomb to ensure that every scumbag in the Capitol building is surely dead. Period. Fuck you America.

"Surely in a population of 310 million you can find more than a few resolute personalities who refuse to just sit back and watch the sickening spectacle of inept vacillation."

You would think so. I keep trying to give people the benefit of the doubt, but alas am again disappointed. All the blogs read the same. We're on the Titanic and it's sinking and everyone wants to argue about who's going to provide the last lifeboat.

St. Roy and lsjogren got it right. Two words: Population Control. Population-as in how to reduce it drastically. Control-as in how to retain and expand our power. These are the only 2 problems the Powers That Be are interested in solving. Just accept it.

Chippendale said, "There is little in your post that is anything more than a personal attack, so I don't deem it worth a detailed response."

My only regret is that I did not point out that religion has had thousands of years to solve problems like disease, war, famine, human misery, et. al., and has failed totally and utterly... long before J.C. & the Boys came along.

Science is providing all the solutions to these problems. Religion seems to be jealous, or, "Jelly" as they say in some quarters.

OK Shakazulu. You want to us to ignore the biological imperative. I have to quote the late, great, contemporary philosopher Richard Pryor.

"There will be no shortage of niggas. 'Cuz niggas is fuckin'.

Notice how Obama always fares better against a specific GOP candidate as opposed to a generic one. Derrida might have termed this the power of the 'unmarked term'.

Buck, I think Derrida understands Obama and the key to such understanding is differance, in other words differance is what makes the movement of signification possible only if each element called "present," appearing on the stage of presence, is related to something other than itself, but is retaining the mark of its relation to the future element, -- the trace relating no less to what is called the future by this very relation to what is not; that is, not even to a past or future considered as a modified present.

Jimmy DrinkH2o says "Any bicycle will do... even small ICE powered bikes and cargo bikes are appropriate technology for the times."

the Census estimates there are roughly 79.6 million people aged 45 to 64 in America. If you divide 79.6 million by 19 years, then divide that by 365 days, you get 11,478. That’s the number of people, on average, who will turn 65 each day for the next 19 years.

It was the first generation in the history of the world to be ferried cradle to grave on infernal combustion... small ICE powered bikes, indeed.

The only problem with the ICE powered bikes is, well, everything. The technology is complete shit. The vast majority of the kits are clabbered together garbage.

Ideally you'd have a near-zero emissions modified ICE with noise suppression, greatly extended gas mileage, etc.

What you get is a jerry-rigged leafblower engine bolted to a regualr bicycle. It does neither the weedblower or the bicycle any favors.

Does America aspire to the ambiance of Calcutta during rush-hour? Hell no.

Wow. And I thought my posts were ambiguous.

Sensitivity training for 'the troops'....
And who is Shafiq Mubarak? All I can find out is that he is a Pro Sol contractor (?) hired by the Marine Corps Center for Advanced Operational Culture Learning to help implement "the U.S. strategy in Afghanistan, the winning of hearts and minds." At least that's how Col. Furness puts it. According to the North County Times, Mubarak didn't come to the US until 2008 -- from where the story doesn't say -- but has been working with US troops in A-stan "for much of the past decade."

How is that? Why is that? Dunno. What the story does report is that Mubarak teaches the do's and don't's of sharia -- kind of, Islam for Leathernecks.

Mubarak teaches US Marines:

Don't spit toward Mecca...................

Don't urinate toward Mecca......................

Don't sleep with your boots toward Mecca.!!!!!!!!!!

In other words, Mubarak teaches US Marines to become intensely sensitized to the whereabouts of Mecca, and to be guided by that
magnetic North for Muslims as a matter of the most personal habits and hygiene -- in accordance with sharia (Islamic law).

This goes well, of course, with ISAF's guidance to all troops to revere the Koran and its teachings.

[What next, prayer rugs?]

Mubarak told the North County Times:

"We can't win just by fighting," said Mubarak, who came to the U.S. less than three years ago after working with American forces in Afghanistan for much of the past decade. "Sitting with tribal elders, learning their problems and helping them is crucial."

Asoka ...chance fer you to give this a 'thumbs up'.

"... resolute personalities who refuse to just sit back and watch the sickening spectacle of inept vacillation." - Shak quoting JHK
=============

Does Jim really intend that inept be an adjective modifying vacillation? Shouldn't we be thankful the vacillation is inept? i.e. lacking in skill and aptitude. We don't want more and "better" (so to speak) vacillation, do we?

I'm guessing Jim is really speaking of two separate things (two nouns) and that the end of the sentence should have read "the sickening spectacle of ineptitude and vacillation."

...man liveth not by bread alone...

Iwide says "I think RON PAUL offers some new ideas..."

RP's problem is the fact he doesn't seem to believe in himself; he kowtows for the Republican party, the party that laughs at him behind his back- in every campaign since 1988.

[What next, prayer rugs?]
============

Oh Boy, Anti ... I'm with you 1000% on this one. Nothing galls me more than the idea of one place or space being thought of as more holy than another. Or, for that matter, holy at all. Mecca, in Islam ... a container on an alter housing the "host" in Roman Catholicism.

To what depth in the Earth's crust below Mecca, and to what altitude in the air above, does this holiness extend?

With the advent of the GPS perhaps our soldiers can be even more precise in the direction they pee. Sometimes I actually yearn to leave this world and its inanities.

"Amazing isn't it? Tik, knows exactly what is going on in the "ranks" of the OSW"

Got that one...

"Tik, knows exactly what is going on in the "ranks" of the OSW (yes, ranks, their all ranked up over there, haven't you noticed?)."

...and missed this one! Doh! Those there/their/they're usages are tricky, aren't they?!

;)

I think the protest is not so much that some have more than others. That's just nature. That's biodiversity. I think the hubbub is more about the ones who have so much more due to no-bid contracts, insider trading, tax loopholes, offshore money, sweatshop labor...oh, and the open, outright pillaging of the public coffers by the very richest among us. But that's just a guess.

"You are wrong to think that "Americans" don't want to get dirty. There are 300 million Americans, ranging from selfish Q, his shallow wife and dingbat mother-in-law, to many, many kids who want to go back to the land, but can't afford it.

If the US did land redistribution and support, we could quickly get back to local agriculture."

Wage, I'll make a deal with you. I'll pretend like this post never happened if you give me a freebie at some later date of my request. I'm sure I'll need it;)

I'm sick to death of seeing the dung-brained around here type: "what about Ron Paul?" You know what Ron Paul proves, idiots? That you are NOT required to wear a hood to be in the Klan. Now, shut up and go away.

After Reading Matt Taibbi's Blog at Rolling Stone (Taibbiblog) it sounded like Bloomberg, Mr. Corporation Himself, wants to transfer the blame away from the banks, their CDS, their MBS, their CDO scams and put the blame on the scammed mortgagee.

We need a third party candidate. That is for sure.

I listened to Danny Glover's speech at the Occupy Oakland, and he was passionate. He might just be the face to unite all the Occupy locations and move this movement forward.

See the speech here:

http://eye-on-washington.blogspot.com

Jimbo...you can shut down the Clusterphucker forever. Solar Highways will save us:

http://www.wimp.com/solarhighways

"If the US did land redistribution and support, we could quickly get back to local agriculture."

And hand-to-hand combat! Sorry man, there isn't going to be an easy way out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQrTGE4wwwA

"People in cities are healthier than people in the suburbs."

Yeah, it's just too bad about the complete lack of production space, whether that's soil- or garage-based. Oh, and the need to clear whatever adaptation they wish to try out with so many other people. Those suburbs, man, all that space, solar access, and autonomy. They are definitely doomed.

"And hand-to-hand combat! Sorry man, there isn't going to be an easy way out."

Whew! Thank god. For a second there I thought Wage might have been onto something. I'm glad you straightened all that out.

...man liveth not by bread alone...
================

Yeah Chuck, hanging "th" on the end of a word or two and placing the "not" after the verb are two biggies in Bible quotation.

And then there's the whole "thou" and "shalt" business. How lame would "You mustn't kill" be?

OK, then.

Non-violence, check. Ecological wisdom, check. Grassroots democracy, check.

Social justice? Oooh, icky!

Well, then. Carry on with the navel gazing.

ok. Thank God that there isn't going to be an easy way out? Wage is onto ...doomed suburbs?

You should be dancin'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trHRiFzduW0

I had breakfast with Jill when we went to Boston.

Mousy nerd? I thought you were all about demure women.

And nerd? You mean smart? Sure, that doesn't go over well in America, but I thought that you were all about intelligence. Right?

Or can't you stand for a woman to be smart and female?

WOW! Too much stuff for me to take in all at once. Some good points made by JHK this week, despite his usual vitriole. Some vague observations thus far:

Asoka seems to be in a forever state of love/hate realtionship with Obama.

Tripp made a good point in that we all tend to vilify the people who live off of the "welfare state". How many of you who have mortgages realize you're one of these "welfare queens"? I could go on, but hopefully you get my drift.

Q said something that sounded quite telling that the big banksters who received the bailouts from us working stiffs are simply benefiting from their OWN hard work and nose-to-the-grindstone work ethic, despite having intentionally swindled the American investors and TAXPAYERS (?) A very large WTF inserted here!

Jimmy (and or Bustin) seem to believe that the baby boomers are to blame for having grown up in a world of oil abundance...as if they could have possibly helped the year they were born ..'46-'64??

As for me, I feel like ya kinda have to take the cards you were dealt and try not to bitch too much about it. If you're still young and healthy enough, figure out how to survive and thrive either where you are or find someplace you can travel. And if you CAN organize on a local level, by all means, FREAKING DO IT! Lord knows we need you now!

And waiting for some type of land redistribution or BIG SOCIAL SAVIOR EVENT to happen, via government or coup, what have you...sorry, it just ain't gonna happen. Not here! Just my .02. ;0

Wage, if it matters to you, I am endorsing Jill Stein for President and will vote for her.

Stein advocates for the creation of a "Green New Deal", the objective of which would be to employ "every American willing and able to work" to address "climate change...[and the] converging water, soil, fisheries, forest, and fossil fuel crises" by working towards "sustainable energy, transportation and production infrastructure: clean renewable energy generation, energy efficiency, intra-city mass transit and inter-city railroads, “complete streets” that safely encourage bike and pedestrian traffic, regional food systems based on sustainable organic agriculture, and clean manufacturing of the goods needed to support this sustainable economy

OK, I thought you congratulated Obama on the murder of Osama. You say you didn't, and I don't want to go back and check, so, OK.

Comparing murderers on their efficiency, and congratulating the more efficient? See, that's what I'm saying!

Are you really that stupid, Q?

Do you not realize that the big agribusiness owners are not living on their land?

The biggest tax cheats live in San Francisco and New York.

They would not be thrown off any land. They sharecrop it out, you dipshit.

Myrtlemay, I've had it with Obama. He requested a $671 Billion 2012 defense budget!

I am officially endorsing Jill Stein. The Green Party considers nonviolence central to its platform. Neither the Republican nor the Democratic Party has nonviolence in its platform.

I voted for Dick Gregory in 1968, then for third-party candidates in every election afterwards, until, for the first time, I voted Democratic in 2008.

As a pacifist/anarchist/communist (no, those are not contradictory) I cannot vote for Obama again.

I violated my principles by voting for Obama in 2008, believing he would end the wars and close Guantanamo. I wasted my vote by voting for a Democrat.

Voting for the Green Party I will be sure NOT to waste my vote (as if voting has made any difference since 1968).

Well, it does matter to me. I certainly hope that you keep your promise and don't go all moon-eyed over Obama when he goes into campaign mode and starts making promises again.

I only pick on you, asoka, because you seem like a decent person, and I'm trying to hold you to it.

I don't expect anything from Q or the other hateful people on this blog.

Comparing murderers on their efficiency, and congratulating the more efficient? See, that's what I'm saying!

==============

OK, Wage, you have convinced me. I am changing my mind as a result of your arguments. Change is possible.

I am now supporting Jill Stein for President of the United States of America in 2012.

Let it not be said that no one ever changes their position as a result of CFN posts. I have just changed from Barack Obama to Jill Stein because Wage informed me of the inconsistency (immorality, really) of praising or voting for Obama or any Democratic candidate or any Republican candidate.

Joe Frazier is dead and gone, one of the greats.

A word for H. Cain. Nigger.

I could not believe when Q said he has not read the guiding principles of the Green Party.

Here you go, Q:

Grassroots democracy
Social justice and equal opportunity
Ecological wisdom
Nonviolence
Decentralization
Community-based economics
Feminism and gender equality
Respect for diversity
Personal and global responsibility
Future focus and sustainability

The Green Party does not accept donations from corporations.

Q said ...... that the big banksters who received the bailouts from us working stiffs are simply benefiting from their OWN hard work and nose-to-the-grindstone work ethic,
==============

Picture the following all-caps words in 24 point font:

MYRTLE, WHERE the FUCK do you get THAT^ from anything I wrote??? If I ruled the world there would be NO GOVERNMENT BAILOUTS. FAILING COMPANIES SHOULD FAIL ... whether its GENERAL MOTORS or GOLDMAN SACHS.

Does THAT clarify it for you??

Logan's Run; time for Carousel.

I think it was Dale, not Q.

As if Q would care about moral principles!

War is not the answer. Never was. Never will.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFRgEQGIDzs

War is not the answer. Never was. Never will.

They sharecrop it out, you dipshit.
===============

Wage, don't make this more complex than it needs to be. You are a re-distributionist and it extends waaay beyond farmland. Mrs Robin Hood. Rob from those who have and give it to those who don't. The haves got what they have illicitly. This is basic WageThink.

Never saw ANYONE fuck up Cassius like Joe. Total Badass. RIP.

You are very beautiful Pilgrim.

Don't get me wrong, I'd fuck her. But President? Whatever happened to Wilma Mankiller? Nerds are smart in general. But they lack a kind of emotional intelligence, typically the kind that give you street smarts. And that's fatal in politics.

I don't expect anything from Q or the other hateful people on this blog.
=============

Anyone who does not believe in the redistribution of wealth in accordance with Wage's Marxist view of moral right is hateful. Ipso Facto.

Asoka,

Was a vote for Ralph Nader in 2000 essentially a vote for George W Bush? And will a vote for Jill Stein essentially be a vote for Rick Perry,Newt Gingrich, Herman Came, or even Dan Quayle - assuming he is the last Republican standing?

A $671 BILLION Defense budget for 2012 eh, is that the new version of audacity of hope? Hope for what, to annihilate every living thing on the friggin' planet? Just one more reason to look for another option. Problem is, right now I'm not seeing it on the political horizon. How does a D. Ratigan / E.Warren ticket sound? What can I say, I like articulate people who want to shake things up.

Obama started to lose me when he didn't close Gitmo after making it such a moral issue during the campaign. Things have gone mostly sideways ever since. I was really hoping he'd grow a pair, but it's obvious by now that's not going to happen. "So fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me".

That said, given the reality check we're all 'bout to encounter the real danger is ourselves and whether we decide to take the easy (though messy) way out via war and / or fascism. Lets all hope we don't get played again into doing some other country's dirty little war. Good morning, I r a n...what's not to like about perpetural war? Good for growth, right?

Thanks to all here at the CF'dN for sharing info, I'm going to check out Jill Stein.
Forever the optimist...

If your wife was going to have an affair, wouldn't you want her to do it somewhere other than your marriage bed? Is this not sacred between two people?

When I walk a circle or trace with my finger, the enclosed space becomes sacred because of my intent. Things are because they're not something else; things are here because other things aren't. Think of the purity of the page, the neatness of the master carpenter, the isolated variable in a scientist's experiment. As Kierkegard said, "Purity of heart is to will one thing".

Q,

You remind me of this quote...

"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest excuses in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."
--John Kenneth Galbraith

Wouldn't you agree? I'm not much of a moralist, but it just seems to fit so well. ;)

Galbraith was an over rated jacass

Christ deigned to be born as a man, to take up space, have height and breadth. Thus by being Here on Earth in Space and Time, he sanctified our world and our species. To quote the poet Gray, "He touched nothing that he did not adorn".

Buck, I voted for Ralph Nader in 2000. I did not vote for George W Bush. If everyone who voted for Gore had voted for Nader, Nader would have won.

That is your argument, right? You think if those who voted for Nader had voted for Gore, Gore would have won. The argument works both ways.

If you recall, Al Gore did not even carry his own state of Tennessee as a favorite son.

I do not believe voting for your principles is a wasted vote. Everyone should vote their principles.

A vote for Obama would be against my principles.

Yes, I compromised my principles in 2008, not realizing I would get George W. Bush again. Worse than Bush, since Obama has deported more immigrants than Bush and Obama has bombed more countries than Bush.

I am not going to vote against Republicans. I am voting for my candidate: Jill Stein.

So the Bible says that we are our "brother's keepers," yet why are all these rabid Holy Rollers here in the US such greedy individualist conservatives? It makes no sense.

No one asked you, turd burglar. Now crawl back under your rock.

You get the Darwin Award for dumbest post Ev-ar. My Irish Terrier Mickey was smarter than you.

Never saw ANYONE fuck up Cassius like Joe.
================

I saw the first Ali-Frazier fight in real time. It was piped onto a screen in a huge hall somewhere in Connecticut (don't recall exactly where, Stamford? Bridgeport?) when that technology was in its infancy. And, if I may use a worn but apt cliche, there was electricity in the air. Frazier won and I was up the entire night listening to discussion of the fight on radio. For shear drama and excitement there has been only one other fight in my time that compares: Hagler-Hearns.

Mencken has some quote about there being very little difference in intelligence between the smartest dog and the dumbest people ("say a Tennessee Holy Roller").

Just thought I'd put that out there.

Good point Vlad.

I'd add that a perfect relationship is when two people want the same thing.

Myrtle said, "Jimmy (and or Bustin) seem to believe that the baby boomers are to blame for having grown up in a world of oil abundance...as if they could have possibly helped the year they were born ..'46-'64?? "

I do not generally hold ageist views. Its just that, at some future date it may not be amusing to an audience of younger people to reminisce about burning gasoline by the gallon on a routine basis. Or that one ate fish and other animal flesh. Or were able to peer into a glowing box and listen to something called "music", as you huddle around your burnt charcoal and turnip dinner, figuring out which person the group will kill and eat next.

I think you've read The Road one too many times, Buster. In the future, surely we'll have flying cars, robots that make us breakfast, computers that plug directly into the brain, and all that other happy horseshit.

Asoka said: "I do not believe voting for your principles is a wasted vote. Everyone should vote their principles. "

People should vote with with their feet. They should vote with their disobedience. (Think of other ways you could vote).

* Asoka is totally voting Obama in 2012 *

Wouldn't you agree?
============

I've expressed this opinion here before to scant applause ... that it is impossible for a sane and conscious being to act unselfishly. It's one of those things like: even God can't make a square circle. Even Wage can't act in other than her own self interest.

Now, who is going to be the first to say "What about the guy who dives on a live grenade to save his fellow soldiers?"

Asoka,

No, it's not really my argument. I think a viable alternative to the two-party political monopoly is long overdue. However, the pragmatist holding his nose while voting for the "smallest turd in the toilet" might argue that 'half a loaf is better than no loaf' or the political equivalent of playing for a tie. And it's illogical: Voting for a third-party candidate almost guarantees a massive turd in the short/medium turd with no promise of future political salvation. In fact, it might further entrench regressive political forces through legal/ institutional appointments.

Some many varying vantages points, out on the periphery.

* Not illogical/irrational*

Vlad Krandz comment 11-08- 1:04 AM...

According to NASA scientists, the Shroud of Turin is most likely authentic.

See "Isabel Piczec image found"

Add this to contemporary documentation for Christ's visit to the Middle East and subsequent resurrection, -world views like Mormonism & Islam evaporate. So how shall Mitt Romney deal with this as a Bishop of Mormonism? Will he flip to the side of intellectual honesty after all?

How does Islam maintain reasonable claim to Jerusalem with Jews on site 2000 years prior? Of course rationality is not to be expected, so we resign ourselves to conflict, impact on Strait of Hormuz, Suez and Bab El Mandeb. Motor fuel rationing for the USA. These oilpatch religion items mentioned simply as reminders of how tenuous our rubber tire economy really is...

By 2015 America must have a very resolute and robust railway rebuild program under way. If not, energy restrictions (Diesel price hikes and shortage) will make transportation engineering to deal with Peak Oil well nigh impossible.

Jill Stein mentions intercity railway enhancement. Has she read and comprehend Christopher C. Swan's detail on renewable linked railway upgrades (ELECTRIC WATER -New Society Press 2007)?

Why do people who oppose the government pay taxes?

Shear? Gotcha. As for Hagler / Hearns....Q, you ruddy fuck.

Q,

I recall that fight and you're exactly right about the electricity in the air. Ali was on the comeback trail after being banned from boxing and Frazier was at his peak.

My other big fight memory was the first Duran/Leonard fight in June of 1980 in Montreal. Duran taunted Leonard at the weigh by grabbing his balls in that inexplicable display of Latin machismo. (I have also witnessed Italians doing that same groin grab).

Anyway Duran won - his defensive fight skills were astounding - but Leonard and his handlers knew "Manos de Piedra' would party big time after his victory and they managed to get a rematch relatively quickly ensuring that Duran would have to shed a lot of weight quickly.

The rest is "No Mas" history.

"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest excuses in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."
==============

The modern liberal is wedded to the idea that he knows best what should be done with other people's wealth.

Avoid jail?

"What about the guy who dives on a live grenade to save his fellow soldiers?"

What a gutless motherfucker.

These, I say, these are the jokes, son.

From the Office of Congress,

Foghorn Leghorn

The rest is "No Mas" history.
==============

Yes, I also saw that first Leonard-Duran fight via "closed circuit" in a very large high school gym somewhere in North Jersey. It was another terrific fight I simply had to see.

I've seen many live fights as well: Earnie Shavers in the Garden, Tyson in Atlantic City, and a skinny black kid (forget his name) who held several NY Golden Gloves titles I saw live in the '84 Olympics in LA. It was the first day of the boxing competition and he barely came away with the win in that first match.

It's the government's money, Q. They created it out of nothing for you and then let you borrow it for awhile.

Geo said, "The Occupy Movement in many American and Canadian cities is already showing signs of weakness as the idealists are either pushed out or become outnumbered by the mentally ill, hard-core drug users, homeless youth and anyone else drawn by the prospect of free housing, food and medical services."

Where I live the local homeless had a roving tent city. It was on the Unitarian parking lot for a while, then it struck and went somewhere else for a while. They get moved around.

Once it was obvious a tent city was going up, well, everyone else who lives in something like that began arriving with all their belongings. People are coming out of woods, from under the freeway underpasses, the train trestles... some come off of a passing train or bus, some have been foreclosed on.

Still, its no Ritz Carlton. The people that stay there overnight, for the most part, sometimes have no other options. The temp. tonight will hover near freezing. Valley Forge indeed.

Now Occupy camps are large enough to allow a huge free-flow of people through 24/7. During the day the curious walk their dogs through, kids join the impromptu happenings, or the scheduled events, or they bring food, clothing, more stuff to make semi-permanent dwellings.

And yes, the less mentally adept homeless are within and about the place. The thing is, they do wander around, sometimes unsteadily. But you're referring to people who have been marginalized for a very long time. To a lot of them this looks like real change, or at least a change for the better. None of them seem intent on seeing it fail.

And since they are homeless people, they are repellent in manner and attitude. But these are the people Jesus would be hanging out with. If you can handle interacting with street people, you'll be fine.

So, would it be OK if I borrowed some of Q's borrowed money for awhile? We've got spreadsheets, right?

Shear? Gotcha.
============

Oh fuck ... my first mistake since the Ginsberg Decision (in '66 I think it was) ;-)

You bet on the Colts in '66, didn't you. No lying.

Will it be OK when "they" start breaking glass? Was there glass in ancient Jerusalem? There was definitely glass for the "Kristelnacht".

Breaking news from Basten dot calm: "Accompanied by her prominent lawyer, Gloria Allred, Bialek accused Cain of making a sexual advance one night in mid-July 1997, when she had traveled to Washington to have dinner with him in hopes he could help her find work.

She said the two had finished dinner and were in a car for what she thought was a ride to an office building.

"Instead of going into the offices he suddenly reached over and he put his hand on my leg, under my skirt toward my genitals," she said.

"He also pushed my head toward his crotch," she added.

Bialek said she told her boyfriend, an unidentified pediatrician, as well as a longtime male friend about the episode."

To sum up,

Even though your husband is a doctor, you still expect a powerful, rich pizza magnate not to try and go for First Base after he's taken you out on a dinner date.

Poor Herman. Like most men he's a clumsy Lothario. Hes probably used to paying for sex.

The media is suggesting that we should know who just gutted Herman Cain in the social arena. That would be Gloria Allred, a high powered lawyer who specializes in sexual harassment. She will proceed to pubic lynching and/or settlement. Herman may rue the day he stepped into the national spotlight.

The (refuse to capitalize) shroud of Turin? Really? Wasn't there a textile expert from Harvard who recently (I think) determined that the kind of twill used in the shroud didn't exist until several hundred years after the ALLEGED death of Jesus of Nazareth? Been layin' bricks, gotta sleep. But, I will most definitely be looking for rebuttals.

"To quote the poet Gray, 'He touched nothing that he did not adorn'".

I feel the same way about the artist formerly known as "Prince". Nothing like some good Vlad baiting before bedtime.

Mr. Kunstler:
How about a fifth order of business, i.e. those able-bodied souls who don't produce, don't eat?
The uber-welfare state is right behind the war empire in bankrupting us as a nation."

Not true at all. Its way, way behind the war empire. Saying its "right behind" is certainly bullshit.

People are out of work because there is not enough work to go around. Just like in early 1930's, the work week should be shortened. Used to be a 6 day week. Eventually there weren't enough people going to work on Saturday. So the trains stopped scheduling. This lead to the gradual acceptance of something called a weekend.

I have a similar idea, but add a day to the week. The 8th day will come after Sunday, but before Monday. I call it Arborday. The day can be used as people see fit. I think we should go to a 32 hour week as standard. Combined with the 8 day week, thats one whole half-week as "weekend". Instead of 52 weeks a year, give or take, there would be 42 weeks, 42 extra Arbordays and 42 extra days off.

Its possible if we want it. Do we want it? Yes. Do the jerk-offs in power want it? No! Do the work-hogs hogging all the jobs want it? No! They want everything just as before, except for this time, they want the jobless beaten with plastic hoses!

The economy is sick.

I hope it dies

Some time ago I read a very interesting book: Confessions of an economic hit man.
It was clearly explained the behavior of the big corporations and the IMF.
What they usually do to grab ALL the raw materials and the richness of a country of the third world.
First they reduce the country in heavy debts, lending money to build "infrastructures" that have very little to do with the name, or with the growth of the economy of the country.
They are exclusively on the interest of the big corporations which plan to be there.
This was John Perkin’s job (the economic hit man).
Second step is making the country insolvent, third step is Stealing all what they can, reducing the population in misery and so having people working for the big corporations for 30 dollars a month.
This allows the big managers to have a few private jets, the high class whores and similia, while people starve even working 12 hours a day, seven days a week...

Well , at that time I didn’t understand.
I didn’t understand that, after the third world it was the time for us.
Just as the written phrase I read when I was little, in the cemetery where my grandparents were buried: We were like you, you will be like us.

And people still do not understand.
First was Greece, now is Italy.
And France and Germany laugh.

We were like you, YOU will be like us.

The pattern is the same:
First putting the country in debts, then giving more money to pay the interests of the debts.
Then increasing the interests and obliging to more debts to pay the interests.
Finally stealing all what they can, making the population in misery, working for less and less, more and more.

IMF, International Mafia Federation, nobody sees that you are but a copy of the Italian Mafia.
Same breed, same ways, but you were smart enough to legalize yourself.
Nevertheless you are as criminal as the “unlegalized” Mafia.

Bustin wrote: Jimmy DrinkH2o says "Any bicycle will do... even small ICE powered bikes and cargo bikes are appropriate technology for the times."

the Census estimates there are roughly 79.6 million people aged 45 to 64 in America. If you divide 79.6 million by 19 years, then divide that by 365 days, you get 11,478. That’s the number of people, on average, who will turn 65 each day for the next 19 years.

It was the first generation in the history of the world to be ferried cradle to grave on infernal combustion... small ICE powered bikes, indeed.

The only problem with the ICE powered bikes is, well, everything. The technology is complete shit. The vast majority of the kits are clabbered together garbage.

Ideally you'd have a near-zero emissions modified ICE with noise suppression, greatly extended gas mileage, etc.

What you get is a jerry-rigged leafblower engine bolted to a regualr bicycle. It does neither the weedblower or the bicycle any favors.

Does America aspire to the ambiance of Calcutta during rush-hour? Hell no.


==================================================

I actually agree with some of what you wrote. At the risk of further tooting my own horn I'd say read my blog, it addresses and continues to explore exactly the issues you raise.

http://alttransbikes.blogspot.com

I love the pure, sweet functionality of a well tuned bicycle and want to impact that as minimally as possible. As I grow a older I still love the the exercise I get pedaling ......but perhaps just not all the time. With that in mind, I've been exploring some power assist options and, I must honestly admit, without assist my time spent cycling would greatly diminish.

Power assist might be applied by an ICE, small 7 lb., quiet, efficient engines that are both EPA and CARB II compliant. There are some wonderful mini, industrial quality engines available today.

Electric assist might be applied by high output RC electric or ehub brushless motors that have regenerative braking that can be used to trickle charge a smaller_than_usual bike battery pack to keep weight down.

Better might be a combination of the two, a hybrid.....ICE/Elec equipped bike that could get 300 miles to a gallon of gasoline with minimal electric outlet charging.

Perhaps most appropriately we should make that tribrid power: human/ice/electric.

The power assisted bicycle has a 125 year history, before it morphed into bigger/faster/heavier and that is my inspiration.

Your mind is probably made up but then you're stopped by what you know. There's nothing to be done about that by anyone other than yourself.
Thanks for your comments.


Who's fooling whom?? Last week while all the European "happy talk" was going on, yields on 1-year Greek notes went to 212% up from 144% just one WEEK before that. The implied probability of Greek default is ONE-HUNDRED percent. Yet even as I write this, the news media are talking about "progress" in Greek debt restructuring talks. Really? With WHICH GOVERNMENT? Who is asking THAT!? They don't quite have one at the moment.

The problem with investing in any developed-world stockmarket is that you might, indeed, have all these numb-nuts running it up ten or even twenty percent above current levels. However, when you actually look at life on the ground in Italy, Greece, Spain, or even here in the USA where "living with Mom and Dad" at 35 is no longer as rare as a politician's integrity, you start to understand that your downside is LIMITLESS. You're playing Russian Roulette with your life's savings (assuming you're a dinosaur like me and you have some) but the gun has four bullets, not one.

Rest assured that Mr. Bernanke is viciously aiming at you savers out there because, with a clenched jaw, he's telling you that he's going to do everything in his power to drive you into risk assets ... otherwise you'll watch food and fuel inflate while your purchasing power decreases. Well, if Mr. Bernanke is the "irresistible force" then I'm the "immovable object" because I will
NOT buy stuff that requires a SCHEDULE D AT TAX TIME.

The problem is that the developed world, which we're trying mightily to move OUT of, sold their souls to the globalists who don't care that the implementation of their ideals, the foremost being outsourcing, means that the living conditions of the world's workers are all converging toward shanty towns, small dwellings with 8 or 10 people, rents higher than monthly salaries, etc..

Take part in any and all local OWS activity or even start your own. Yes, it IS class warfare, only, for at least this brief second, WE are starting to do it back to THEM after a generation of complacency.


E.


The Recovery Causes The End of the Recovery.
***********************************************************

That's the paradox of the current machinations of the Fed. Anybody who even casually looks at the prices of stuff may have noticed that while the Dow, after 6 yo-yo trips in two months, has finally, once again, surmounted the 12,000 mark. However, the price of the recovery IS the recovery because as the Dow rises, so does the price of OIL and FOOD.

What's odd is that the FED created this with QE1 and QE2 and we had riots in Egypt and Yemen, not about "democracy" but about SURVIVAL. Now, the ECB has flooded the world's banking system so it only makes sense that this will spill over here just as our QE's spilled over to the rest of the world.

These banksters are cynical, sinister bastards who are WORSE than murderers. Instead of killing people outright, they're making living conditions universally hellish around the globe for the 99% that are not "high net worth individuals". The paradox, of course, lies in the phrase "net worth" because NEVER has money had less correlation with REFINEMENT and CULTIVATION than it has in this Brave New Millenium.

Little wonder that RUSSIA, a nation of mafiosi-run businesses and municipalities, has had its currency bid up recently and the Commercials have their first long ruble positions versus the dollar. Yup, 'tis true. Russia cannot stop bleeding population because despite the fall of the Berlin Wall, it appears that it sucks even MORE under "capitalism" ... or at least their own faked version of it. We have our own faked version, thank you!!

The world's economies?? We're all LAS VEGAS NOW, BABY!!

E.

"Why do people who oppose the government pay taxes?"

Because people like yourself have empowered them to steal from your neighbors at the point of a weapon. You won't steal from your neighbors but you are happy to allow someone else to steal from them on your behalf. Say it ain't so.

Some of us have withdrawn our consent to be governed by the lawless. Our so-called leaders show no inclination to follow the law of the land, holding themselves above it. When we appeal to the law of the land, they ignore it and implement policies, treaties and rules, as if these have more authority than the people themselves.

Its not exactly clear what is happening here, but a few can see it plainly.


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E.
You can thank us and the Neoliberals for the "capitalism" Russia has. We screwed them royally, but I think in the end we will be the biggest losers. There will be a tipping point where everything we do is such a sham, that nothing the IMF and WTO will change the toxicity of Quadrillions of worthless paper.

I suggest you check out Zero Hedge. The last two days have been amazing--The international fraud is almost beyond belief.
---------------------------

Patrizia,
I don't know whether you checked out my comment Mon am. I discussed the whole mafia thing there. "Confessions of an Economic Hitman","Shock Doctrine" and "Griftopia" are books that should be a required reading for anyone who wants to understand what this obscenity we call global capitalism is. They describe the same process in different ways.This thing is so out of control I can't imagine how it can possibly continue.

I know Obama has been an abject failure to get us going in any direction that would be different from the administration before, but just remember, it's a global disaster and the power elite can't change the direction. O is a globalist and neoliberal just like the Republicans and most of the Democrats are, so just understand that this is the system.

Good luck finding anyone that can change this--it has to break before it can change.

Suggested Zero Hedge article from yesterday:

Presenting The Latest Eurodebt Exposure Masking Scam Courtesy Of Morgan Stanley: Level 1 To Level 2 Transfers


Just scroll down the page a bit. Other good articles as well.

Qshtik, perhaps thou dost protest too much. For one thing, don't bring up the law. Whose law? As though "The Law" was somehow sacrosanct. What a priggish viewpoint - certainly in context for a tiresome pedant. So let me clarify what I was suggesting in my post: Madoff acquired investors because he could guarantee them unusually high returns on their investments. Did they ask themselves how he was able to do this so repeatedly? No. Why not? Simple. They did not want to know. They just wanted high returns. They didn't care how he did it. And not asking what ought to be a normal question ("how is he able to offer such high returns?") affords plausible deniability. So Madoff can be the Gadarene swine, absorbing their sins while they maintain innocence and the purity of driven snow. Sorry, pedant, Madoff's investors had a duty to ask whence came such fantastic returns. In unlawful transactions(as opposed to illegal - yes, there is a difference), both parties share culpability, albeit not necessarily equally. If you perchance should buy stolen property, the act of buying it does not make it yours and, if discovered, such property must be returned to its rightful owner without compensation to you! Sounds pretty harsh, huh? Well, if you get a good deal, perhaps even a just a regualr deal, the buyer still bears the burden of being aware of its chain of custody.

Was looking over a couple of book reviews this morning and came across this little gem; "A landscape systematically vandalized by corporatocracy". I'd say that pretty much describes our surrounds. Sounds like something JHK would write.
Anyone read "Dark Ages America, the Final Phase of Empire" by Moris Berman? I need some more uplifting lite reading...before Jim releases "The End of Magic".
Ah, another CF'dN morning!

Convention in Charlotte...how appropriate...out of the 50 largest cities in the U.S. Charlotte ranks way down at 49th in Walkability.

http://www.walkscore.com/rankings/?page=5

The Convention Center in Charlotte is across the street from the NASCAR Hall of Fame!

The Convention Center is next to the Interstate that cuts through downtown--which consists of countless number of Kunstler's famous "parking lagoons."

With the wall of the freeway on one side and the lagoons of parking, the Center should be defensible from the rabble. The nearby Bank of America Stadium and Time Warner Cable Arena should make excellent holding pens.

Actually, since Interstates 277 and 77 conveniently and closely ring downtown you could just seal off downtown from the foreclosed masses surrounding it.

The Federal Reserve Building is just a couple blocks from the Convention Center. Charlotte is now the 2nd largest banking center in the country. How appropriate. Maybe a lot of those Wall Streeters living in the Hamptons, Greenwich and Manhattan have a pied-a-terre in Charlotte in case they need to escape the concentrations of unhappy people in the NYC area.

The Center is sandwiched between streets named "Stonewall" and "Martin Luther King Jr." :)

check out the satellite map photos on the web.

A more appropriate (even symbolic?) place could not have been picked at this point in our deterioration.

----------

Tampa gets an 89 score out of 100...but I'm a little suspicious that that just includes the core area. http://www.walkscore.com/score/tampa

Unrelated to the above, San Francisco gets a high walkability score...because those people were looking at a FLAT map. Some places that are just 6 blocks apart are a walk up and down that only a mountain climber could love--and that very few people actually walk.

Cindy,
In answer to your tearful question:
Yes, you will become crazier and crazier as time goes on, and no amount of supplication to the gods of numerology will save you.

Get along home, Cindy, Cindy; get along [to the] Home.

I smell a setup. "That woman" - thank you, Bill - has just a wee bit too much collagen and a little too much red in and on her lips. At the very least, she is angling for an "Over Fifty" centerfold gig. By setup I mean Cain has hired his accuser who will later recant, casting doubt over other accusations.

But if the accusations do end up ringing true, Cain can always use the Bill Clinton defense: He thought harrassment meant "Her Ass".

chuckle...sort of...i gotta wonder if she can sue limblob over what he said...

zone, i almost think that s one of the computer trolls jim has been trying to block at any rate it might be better not to reply (at least directly), as stirring shit can only lead to the inevitable stink...

Hey O3 -

I would bet even money that Cynthia2013 is CFN's very own 8M/NameTa/etc.

And I would bet that it was mostly 8m's and TootSie's antics - that cause the high settings on the CFN spam filter - that caused this comment thread to nearly collapse back last month.

OH WELL?

And to think that all 8M really wanted was buses.

Thanks Al.
"Unaccountability" exposed as accountable, after all. Geeez, it ain't fair, I tells ya! ;o)

We don't look at wealth in the same way.

You look at wealth as hoarded money, earned by hard work, and deserved by the hoardee.

I look at wealth as labor working with the bounty of the Earth, (now nearly stripped), ripped off by the wealthy from the workers.

So, yes, I believe in redistribution.

As for land, Tripp's hero, Joel Salatin, recognizes that there are kids out there, eager and ready to work, who have no land. He proposes that older farmers share their land and experience with younger would-be farmers.

As for the wealthy losing their land, they could be compensated for it, for all that. Although they are compensated richly for it now.

http://www.nypress.com/article-21342-the-making-of-manhattans-elite-welfare-farmers.html

Just drop the pose of aggrieved aristocrat, Q. You aren't one of the 1%, and it's pathetic to watch you grovel at their feet.

Very insightful stuff about Charlotte, Erik SF.

Those delegates will be as isolated at the Democratic convention - as were those Group of Eight delegates out at Sea Island, Georgia, a few years back.

That is probably an important Law Enforcement criteria - for contentious and large scale conventions - - - When you think about it.

Thanks!

Ah, yes, I shall comply.
And, P2C, it most assuredly is the Ol' Spider hisself; I'll heed Charlie's advice.

"Second, I think my view is that a wide range of economic/social/environmental outcomes are possible (some good, some not), similar to the way life usually unfolds. You seem to be quite sure a narrow outcome is assured, so that is quite different I think, and justifies a greater degree of scrutiny."

Sure, there are plenty of ways this could go, but I don't think there's any automatic merit in seeing so many that you prepare for none.

No doubt it's the ecologist in me who subscribes to the precautionary principle: dire news ought to be acted on as rapidly as possible until it is proven erroneous.

I just happen to like the actions I've taken in response to PO better than the consumptive life I was living before. (And even back then my nickname among my more mainstream friends was "Mr. Greenjeans.") But, driving a Prius and eating organic are not the same thing as preparing for global energy descent. Not by a long shot. And I wouldn't waste my time here if I didn't have something worth selling. Energy peak or not.

Gore won in Florida, as proved by the recount.

The Democrats, known mostly as wooses, managed to mount a vicious campaign of hatred and vitriol - against Ralph Nader!

Anyone who still falls for it is probably not a skilled enough thinker to vote for anyone but one of the two corporate parties.

And I personally know two Republicans who voted for Ralph Nader in 2000. My mother-in-law, and the Marine sniper I worked with, both because George Bush was such an idiot that they went with the intelligent candidate.

I know three Democrats who voted for Ralph Nader because they were so pissed off at Gore when he supported those Cubans who had the little motherless boy locked in a closet, so he couldn't go back to his daddy.

There were actually a lot of Republicans who voted for Ralph Nader. This is down the Democratic memory hole.

But facts don't matter when they interfere with the Democratic storyline.

Also would say that even though panels are generally warranted for 25yrs they will certainly last much longer.
-------------------------------------------
My understanding at that time was, that the power production began to decline after about 15 years and they were producing significantly below that by the end of 25, is that not true?

Speaking of stupid government actions - -

My understanding is that the Democratic and Republican Parties are "PRIVATE" or at least quasi-private.

That's how Repubs in some areas can force candidates to pledge against/for certain positions (say abortion?) or else they don't get Party funding and they can't get ballot space.

==========================
And why do the Dems even NEED a convention next year????? Obama will certainly be the nominee.

One could hope that Democrats of all stripes will/would be so incredibly OFFENDED at the high-dollar spectacle and WASTE of it all -

So offended, that mainstream Dems would vote for the Green Party candidate in mass.
And thus eviscerate the DemocratoCorporate Party once and forever.

A man can hope, anyway.

There is the smell of unwashed humans that goes beyond normal BO. It is really foul.

The other day, I was stopped at a stoplight and a homeless guy was there. I handed him a dollar OUT of my window. His hand never came inside, yet the entire inside reeked.

However. There are times I have had homeless people in the ER, and the smell was so bad that I took them to the shower and hauled their clothes down to the basement and washed them.

Guess what? They clean up pretty good!

Especially now, homeless doesn't necessarily mean crazy drug addict, just down on their luck in a dog-eat-dog capitalist society.

And, yes, I would rather pay more taxes to get them a modest apartment, and daily food, than have them living in the woods and begging for money.

It's just the redistributionist in me.

Even Richard Nixon and Milton Friedman advocated a basic income for all americans.

Shows how far we've fallen into hatefulness.

You got it, Patrizia.

We are being IMF'd.

And the people in the streets are expected. It's called the "IMF riot" by the ruling class.

Wage you wield a very large brush. So large that you're incapable of articulating or shading the nuances. Does an elected president make Federal Court appointments or nominate Supreme Court justices?

Are Sonia Satomayor and Stephen Breyer the political/philosophical equivalent of Anton Scalia and Clarence Thomas? Do Supreme Court justices have societal impact? With one more high court appointment from a President Obama would the reality of "corporate person-hood" be alive and kicking?

Serious thinkers considers these types of issues before making sweeping declarations.

I just happen to like the actions I've taken in response to PO better than the consumptive life I was living before.
----------------------------------------
...and you're liking them is good enough for me. I really admire your strength of conviction and willingness to live that conviction, against a mighty strong current heading the other way. Good Luck, I suspect you'll be happy whatever the case.

Which brings me to another point, regarding my comments here the last few days. I want to say regarding the following:

Asoka - I think you're more than a little confused, but I also think you have a good heart and that goes a long way with me.

turkle - you're a hoot!

Vlad - as warped and odious as your ideas are, you at least have the guts to fly your Nazi flag from the top of your house...and you can take a punch without whining. Finally afterall, you are genuine, and that counts for something.....I guess.

Qshtik - If I could vote one person off the island, it would be you. While you're a bigoted racist, you share none of Vlad's short list of positive traits. You wear your Nazi uniform under your street clothes and cloak your ideas, so the polite society you live in doesn't get who you really are. You're ideas are like farts under a bed sheet, it takes awhile for the stink to come to the surface. By then you've had the opportunity to slither back under the rock where you belong.

OK, got that off my chest, carry on!

That's a pretty good article you linked, Wage. I'm aware of some of the "welfare for the rich" involving farming and timber land ownership - because I benefit from it - on a small scale.

If they wanted to "help" legitimate family farmers - then there would be income and acreage caps (means testing?) on these sorts of programs. But there aren't. Q will tell us that "means testing" is - - - - something bad - -

But I would like an explanation as to why "means testing" for agricultural subsidy is - - bad.

From the end of the article on agriculture programs, for those who don't like to click links:

"No wonder America is starting to feel like a third-world country. Fighting two wars and bailing out banks is enough without having the rich plundering our country right out from under us. It’s not just property taxes, either. In the past decade, two-thirds of corporations doing business on U.S. soil paid no income taxes. The rich aren’t just not paying their fair share, they’re not paying anything at all."

By the way, Wage -

You call my stance on reducing LEGAL immigration into the US - "bizarre."

That's extreme.

Population growth is the linchpin of all of the world's problems. And it's the driver of all the US policies that you decry - from military expenditures to the decline of US lower and middle classes.

==========================================
Even asoka. went on record last week in agreement:
"The United States needs negative population growth," he said.

We need intelligent ways to achieve this goal - before climate change, disease, or famine -

do it for us.

You bet on the Colts in '66, didn't you. No lying.
===============

I have never bet on a sporting event in my life. Welll, hold on a minute, that's not entirely true. I bet on the ponies a few times back more than 50 years ago. And to be a sporting good fellow at the office I joined in on several of those 100 square Super Bowl pools ... but that's about it.

Oooops, almost forgot ... I played pool for money every weekend for about 10 years. The game was called "Chicago" (I have no idea why) and the 5, 10 and 15 numbered balls were the money balls.

About the "Ginsberg Decision," I Googled it and, turns out it was in '68.

No doubt it's the ecologist in me who subscribes to the precautionary principle: dire news ought to be acted on as rapidly as possible until it is proven erroneous.
--------------------------------------------
precautionary principle?? -- I thought that was the chicken little principle. Sounds kinda stressful to me, but if it works for you,... as they say.

I have taken some precautions BTW, food storage etc. My guess is, if it gets as bad as JHK would like to have us think, it probably won't help to have a compost heap in the back yard, when the guy next door is munching down on your carrots with an AK over his shoulder.

Maybe the best precaution I've taken, I've done without being concious of its value. That is the choice of where to live. Boise, ID is about 400 miles from everything, except Mormon potato farms. I suspect that social cohesion and other environmental factors might insulate this area from at least a short to mid-term problem, comparitively speaking to Oh....let's say Los Angeles! Yikes!, just shut off the power there for a couple of hours and look out.

We were like you, YOU will be like us.
==

If you scratch the surface you will find that behind the IMF is the CIA, and behind the CIA is the big corporations, and behind the big corporations is the FED, and behind the FED is the Vatican. So yes, the circle is complete.

"The United States needs negative population growth," he said.

We need intelligent ways to achieve this goal
==============

Pull the plug. Stop fighting the natural and inevitable. Stop trying to prolong negative quality of life in the aged. Compost them back into the soil.

I have instructed my wife, "when I reach that point, pull the plug." She replies "Oh, don't worry, I WILL!" ;-)

Keiser Report: Fed, Treasury & Holy Troika (E207)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIiH4RwM5pk&feature=share via @youtube

That is the choice of where to live. Boise, ID
================

Wow, so you and Vlad are practically neighbors.

Once when I was in college, I lived in a “cooperative” but I found that it was not all that cooperative and mostly it was filled with hippie-types. And although I classify myself as a left-leaning Democrat, I like being clean and wearing conventional clothes. I do like material objects and have worked to acquire a few of them because they are nice to have. But I don’t need to starve 3rd world people or rape the Earth to get the money to buy luxury items. I am not in competition with my friends on who can have the most toys. We all have a few toys and that seems to be enough for each of us. It is a pleasant, ordinary life but for far too many, it seems to be slipping away. The very rich seem to want more and more and more. When will they ever be satisfied?

So I will again plant my veggie garden in the spring, encourage the use of birth control, plan to put up solar panels and vote for Obama who seems like a far better choice than any of the GOP candidates currently available. Voting for Obama may not save the Earth, may not end world hunger, may make the birthers even crazier than ever but what other choice is there? Perhaps the Tea Party will split off from the GOP to support their own radical candidates but that seems unlikely. The GOP will get the Tea Party in line by pandering to their irrational desire to end abortion and crowd the planet with yet billions more hungry, poor people. Sometimes I think self-destruction must be a gene in the human DNA.

No, prog, I was pointing out that legal immigrants do jobs americans would do (like doctors, engineers and professors) long before you started on your crusade.

What's more, I have been advocating payment for voluntary sterilization for years.

What I called "bizarre" is your focus on this particular issue, when there are so many other more pressing issues. Life and death issues.

I really don't see immigrants as a life and death issue.

Do you remember when they were handing out maps to Japanese tourists, showing the walk from downtown to Golden Gate Park to be an easy one? (At least for walkers).

So off the tourists trooped - right through the Fillmore District.

Whoops.

Ha, ha. Serious thinkers!

The Supreme Court, the last refuge of the desperate Democrat scoundrel.

Pinning all your hopes for a better society on one Supreme court justice is pretty pathetic evidence of the farce of a democracy we have in the US.

The Supreme Court historically has been a bastion of conservatism. FDR dealt with them, and won.

If we had a real class warrior, one on our side, she could reverse some of the massive income redistribution of the last 30 years.

But, go ahead, vote your fears. Whatever.

Qshtik - If I could vote one person off the island, it would be you. While you're a bigoted racist, you share none of Vlad's short list of positive traits. You wear your Nazi uniform under your street clothes and cloak your ideas, so the polite society you live in doesn't get who you really are. You're ideas are like farts under a bed sheet, it takes awhile for the stink to come to the surface. By then you've had the opportunity to slither back under the rock where you belong.
===========

Wow Dale, that's harsh. Straight to the heart with the two ultimate accusations in American culture: racist and Nazi. Commie and redistributionist can't even compete. I'm glad I'm not harboring such animosities against anyone here based on their opinions. There is no one I'd vote off the island. Not you, not Tootsie, not Bustin, not even Wage. Even when my eyes roll back in my head, as they often do, I enjoy everyone's company and hearing their views.

And I get sick of the ignorant comments about Mexicans.

Like, they should stay home and fight for a better society.

The nerve of spineless americans, who passively watched two stolen elections, criticizing Mexicans, who occupied Mexico City with over a million people, protesting their stolen election!

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/Lopez-Obrador-supporters-occupy-heart-of-Mexico-Ci-30009995.html

Americans criticizing Mexicans for their drug wars, which weren't anywhere NEAR this bloody until the US military got its nose under the tent.

And it's american drug appetites which feed the drug warlords in the first place, so to criticize the free market for supplying it is incredibly hypocritical.

And it was NAFTA that threw so many peasants off their land in the first place.

So, yes, I get extremely annoyed at clueless americans pointing fingers at mexicans, so it's hard for me to get all worked up about people being here illegally.

Throw the employers in jail. That's my solution.

Also science shows that the Guadelupe Shawl is floating above the fabric. Obviously higher intelligence is involved.

I feel this very strongly. People are frantic.
It's here and now.

Gonna be a rough ride.

It life or death for our Country - and that means it might be Life or Death in a literal sense. They are already overwhelming hospitals and social services. Isn't that kind of life and death too? What happense when they take over whole states and start persecuting Whites? Civil War is what.

How can we hope to deal with unemployment, energy, and economic contraction when our population is exploding? And nealy all of them from a culture traditionaly hostile to our own? THAT is what Prog is saying: not that the other issues aren't crucial, but that there's no hope of solving them until this one is gotten under control.

Communism is very strong in Mexico and I have no doubt that you will continue to enable them. That's where your heart is - not with America.

oh for sure. these drugs are dangerous.
i have tried several. cymbalta was poison to me
immediately a nervous wreck, and i can definitely see these drugs pushing people over the edge.

and they prescribe such high doses.
so sad about the teenager.

hugs not drugs ?
we are such a cruel society, well the system is.
most people are it seems. not all tho.....

You got that right !
I figured it out also.

stupid little me.
I LUV your posts !

If I can get Dale to talk to me, I'll be able to get him off the island. I often bring out the worst in people - and that's very painful for them (and me). Dale is trying to protect himself by ignoring me. He knows that he will have to leave again if he relents. Needless to say, Dale has an immense store of negative energy that is seeking a way out - even more than most Liberals. His Buddhism is not even touching this "treasure".

"I often bring out the worst in people"

You don't say? I never would have guessed.

Thank you. We both have immense troves of negative energy. I know how to turn mine into nectar even like Lord Shiva. You do not. That's why I always defeat you in the end. Love is greater than Hate - but not other than hate. Remember what the Tantric Master William Blake said, "Opposition is true friendship".

I read Conze's little book on meditation years ago. I realized I was a hate/wisdom type in the Theravada schematic. Obviously the Mahayana and Vajrayana took this theme and ran with it.

Luv is spelled Love. I only say this because I Luv you.

"That's why I always defeat you in the end."

Is this an episode of the Highlander or what?

A fine website. Our Traitorous Elites are now out in the open - like a deer flushed out of the thicket. It's Endgame now. No longer having to hide, we can expect them to become increasingly brutal.

I just downloaded Anders Brevik's 1500 page manifesto. It's a complete critique of our Culture from many different angles. Obviously now healthy or sane culture would have just opened the gates to the Muslims or consented to become minorites in their own lands.

Before we can fight, we have to contemplate our own weakness and how we came to being on the brink of extinction.

There can only be One or to use Dale's terminolgy, None.

We lost Electric Service for about 13 days, which gives me an idea what TLE might be like. Believe me it aint fun. And being a CFNer and an acolyte of JHK I as relatively well prepared.

--WSP7

Just 2 days in, not far from here, there was a line for gas 1000 cars deep. State Police needed to be called in to quell violence.

---WSP7

WSP7 said "quell violence (in gas line)"

I have not visited a gas station since 2009. Total gallons of gasoline purchased since 2008: One.

My question is, what can I do to help cause more violence at gas station lines? I am interested in entertainment that fits my budget.

My wife was getting dolled up.

I asked "Where are you going?"

I'd just walked home, gingerly dodging crackling electric wires on the ground, downed poles and broken trees.

'To see 'Jersey Boys'. Then to dinner"

"Jersey Boys? Dinner"?, The whole state looks like a war zone!

"Oh don't worry they'll come soon and clean it up"

Three streets away a McMansion was burning; firetrucks couldn't get to it.

We could see the orange glow over the tree line.

Three days in people began dying in their houses.

--WSP7

Sufiglen said "Never thought I'd see it in my lifetime, maybe Kurzweil is correct the singularity is near and will save us, if it doesn't kill us first."

One thing is certain. Every piece of technology anyone owns is going to be non-functioning, obsolete garbage within 10 years, no matter how beloved, how new and shiny they appear today.

The vehicles with their gas engines will mostly sit idle. And when they are driven, they will be driven fast and pelted with rocks.

Wait! Where are you?

I heard nothing about this on the MSN newsfeed.

I thought you were in California.

I'm surprised that no one came and cleaned it up.

Our big disaster was in May, 2009. and I've written before about it.

I've never seen so many tree trimmer trucks, or electric utility vehicles.

The abandoned Aldi's down the street's parking lot was filled with trucks from other states, come to help us.

If no one came to help you, 2 years later, we are WAY down the long emergency hole.

Wage I am in OzoneP territory.

BustinJ my Ruger will still be working when all else fails.

Your comment reminds me of author Paul Theroux, on his book about the rail system in China, saying when all our cell phones and big screen TVs and computers are in the scrapheap, those Chinese steam trains will still be running.

--WSP7

Tony: Janice decided to go back to Seattle.
Carmela: You're kidding. What about Richie? He must be devastated.
Tony: Richie's gone.
Carmela: What do you mean gone?
Tony: Gone.
Carmela: Where?
Tony: Carmela, after 18 years of marriage, don't make me make you an accessory after the fact.
Carmela: An accessory after the.... Holy shiiit!
Tony: Stop asking.
Carmela: Oh my God! Oh my God.
Tony: I took care of it.
Carmela: That.... That was not a marriage made in heaven.
Tony: ??? this.
Carmela: After Meadow's graduation me and Rosalie Aprile are going to Rome. For three weeks.
Tony: 'Scuse me?
Carmela: We're gonna stay at the Hassler. Shop. And try to see the Holy Father.

Vietnam: "We're gonna take some time off."
Irag: "Shop."
Afghanistan: "See the Pope."

We're a gangster culture.

WTF?
You've not heard of Connecticut and what's going on there in the power and destruction woild?

If not, I guess it really IS the smoke-blowin', happy-talkin', bullshittery mode that we had all been fearing.

No more reality, folks. Just wish for shit, remain seated and starve quietly while we eat your children (in one way or another). Bad news can make people nervous and they may "get ideas".

Even when my eyes roll back in my head, as they often do, I enjoy everyone's company and hearing their views.
---------------------------------------------
but especially if those views are racist.

If I can get Dale to talk to me,
-------------------------------------
I think I've heard it all from ya Vladdie boy, same shit, over and over and over. Don't bother, I ain't buying.

Oh my lawd, WSP!
Will that be america's response to a nat'l emergency?
"Let's go to the show!" lol
(I know your wife is very lovable, so I can't criticize too much.)

We got lucky, what with that ice storm pruning the trees a couple years ago.
Mom's neighborhood just came back on-line this afternoon, so we'll be shipping her on back to a civilized area tomorrow. ;o)

Thusly, I will quote JHK:

"Clusterfuck Nation?"
"It's All Good!"

Myrtlemay didn't start the fire; it was burnin' since the world's been turnin'.

Vlad commented that the Communists are big in Mexico. News to me. They've had almost a century of iron fisted conservative politics. Trotsky spent some time writing, hanging out with artists, and getting an axe planted in his spine, but, I wasn't aware the commies had much traction. There was a leftist party that almost won the elections last time, and would have wrested control from the narco-terror, pro-corporate government in power. The constituency that would have voted were all out of the country... ah, "sightseeing", with no plans to return.

Trip is continuing his real estate buying spree, and heading off to make a cob bunker in the so-called "mountains" of Georgia. Does he think we are stupid? There are no mountains in Georgia.

Elizabeth Warren said:

No. There is nobody in this country who got rich on his own -- nobody... even a factory owner who became wealthy used public goods like roads, police and fire, and public education. Now look, you built a factory and it turned into something terrific, or a great idea? God bless. Keep a big hunk of it. But part of the underlying social contract is you take a hunk of that and pay forward for the next kid who comes along.

ABC News' Terry Moran asked Paul why Harvard Law Professor Elizabeth Warren was wrong in her comments. Ron Paul said:

Because she's a socialist... her whole argument is absolutely wrong because governments are always destructive in the creation of wealth.

When pressed on whether public education was socialist, Paul said:

When the state runs things, that's a socialist thing. I preach home schooling and private schooling and competition.

"Vlad - as warped and odious as your ideas are, you at least have the guts to fly your Nazi flag from the top of your house..."
-dale

Dale, displaying racist, mysogonistic leanings on a blog under an alias is hardly flying a Nazi flag from your rooftop. Anyone can be an asshole anonymously. I wouldn't label it courageous.

BTW, as I had said before, TLE is already in 2nd gear. That would be the collapse of the fake "jobs market". (Fake jobs going away, following in the wake of real manufacturing ones.) At present, the rumblings and roilings of public discontent are at their very beginnings.

Third gear will be the abandonment of faith in "the rule of law" (national/codified). No justice? No peace. (Not as a rhetorical device, either.)

I have a similar idea, but add a day to the week. The 8th day will come after Sunday, but before Monday. I call it Arborday. The day can be used as people see fit. I think we should go to a 32 hour week as standard. Combined with the 8 day week, thats one whole half-week as "weekend". Instead of 52 weeks a year, give or take, there would be 42 weeks, 42 extra Arbordays and 42 extra days off.
===============

Whoo Boy! Where do I begin with this one? Let's take care of the easy and more-or-less inconsequential stuff first. It's 45.625 weeks, 45.625 extra (Arbordays) off, not 42. Let's cover the arithmetic using reasonable rounding of numbers for simplicity.

Are we agreed that the earth spins 365 times on its axis while making 1 full circuit of the sun? Also, that under the old arrangement of seven days to the week, that comes to 52 weeks? (365/7 = 52 after rounding). And so if we re-define a week as being 8 days then 365/8 = 45.625.

Now, I have a question ... when the workers of America get this windfall of 45 (or 46 if you want to round up) more days time off each year do they still continue to get the typical 2, 3, or 4 weeks vacation and (usually) 10 days of holidays? Keep in mind that 2 weeks translates to 10 business days and to 80 hours. So, the old timer getting 4 weeks vacation and 10 days of holidays under the old (i.e. the current) system actually gets 240 hours of time off. These numbers are BEFORE sick time which vary all over the lot from company to company.

Before we get into the reduction of a work week to 32 hours let's just convert the 45 days at a rate of 8 hrs per day. That comes to 360 hrs. If these hours are in addition to the 240 they used to get off rather than in lieu of 240 hours then the total time off comes to 600 hours ... a 150% increase in time off. The typical work year before any time off is 2080 hrs (52 x 40 = 2080). The long-term employee who had worked himself up to the maximum 4 weeks vacation therefore would work 1840 hrs in a year (assuming zero sick time used). In the new scheme that same person would work 1480 hrs.

Next question: does the employee continue to receive the same amount of pay for working these lesser hours or is he "docked" the pay for those unworked hours?

If the workers pay is docked due to the 360 fewer hours worked in a year he is unable to maintain the "style" of living that has evolved based on a higher dollar amount of pay. But he can NOT reduce his style of living commensurately because a high percentage of his costs are "fixed" in things like a home mortgage, car payments, public utilities and local property taxes. The "discretionary" portion of pay is only partially discretionary. It is unlikely he can cut back 50% on food.

If docking the workers pay is NOT what you envisioned then he continues to get his usual pay and the employer has to absorb the cost. Your scheme's entire purpose is to spread the work hours to the unemployed and under-employed who have been "pounding the pavement." Roughly, for each 4 current employees the employer will need to higher 1 new employee, a 25% increase in headcount and labor cost. If the employer is competing for business with a company in a country that is not burdened with a sudden 25% increase in labor costs HOW DOES HE COMPETE?

He can't, and his business will migrate to China, India, Brazil, etc. In a company with 100 full time employees you will go, first, to 125 under-employed employees and finally to NO employees when the work moves to the third world.

Your plan, Bustin, brings to mind the old aphorism: "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

And I haven't even touched on the massive change that converting the country to an 8 day per week calendar would entail. (The US couldn't even convert to the metric system.) It would be totally impractical if the entire world didn't change. First obstacle: changing the Bible to say God made the world in 7 days and rested on the 8th.

We won’t plant an organic garden at the White House and then invite Monsanto over for talks about the economy. -- Jill Stein for President, 2012

http://www.jillstein.org/stein_launches_presidential_campaign

Jill Stein for President, 2012

CORRECTION TO FORMAT

We won’t plant an organic garden at the White House and then invite Monsanto over for talks about the economy. -- Jill Stein for President, 2012

http://www.jillstein.org/stein_launches_presidential_campaign

Jill Stein for President, 2012

OzoneP you might be a rebel and an anarchist but you're a rebel and an anarchist who helps his mom out when she needs help.

We need more people like that.

--WSP7

Q.,
All very nicely and neatly done (aside from the extra worker being hoisted somehow, or being plied with drugs; as in "higher"), but it all depends on the business-as-usual model. There's your trouble, right there in the very clay. The psychology of previous investment monkey is firmly affixed to your back, regardless of the parameters of time-at-the-grindstone.

Solar is getting cheaper, but how far can it go?

http://wapo.st/skgqAu

WaPo Wonkblog

LOL
...She's just lucky my wife enjoys her company!

Recently came across a letter written to a Springfield, Mass. newspaper in 1817, complaining about mass emigration out of S. New England at that time, to 'New Connecticut" along Lake Erie in N Ohio.

Reasons for emigration.

1) Climate change. 3 straight years with hardly any summer, low crop yields and starvation.

2) Lack of fuel. By 1800 every usable tree in S New England had been cut down. Also Whales being hunted to extinction for their oil.

Get this, the letter ends with the author imploring someone to come up with a new form of fuel.

Sound familiar?

Folks, crude oil is the 'alternative energy'.

---WSP7

The internationalist overlords have been busy since, oh, say, 1980 or so with implementing the kinds of disaster capitalism policies here in the US that were so successful for them during the 1960's and 1970's and beyond in the so-called Third World, mostly South America to start with.

This includes privatization schemes, selling off of state assets, dismantling of the social safety net, wide open financial markets, militarization of the police, attacking worker's unions, demonizing the poor and homeless, and polarization of political discussion into the capitalists versus the evil commies. The chickens have come home to roost, you might say.

Or perhaps I'm just reading Disaster Capitalism too much before bedtime (great book that).

q: "If the employer is competing for business with a company in a country that is not burdened with a sudden 25% increase in labor costs HOW DOES HE COMPETE?"

He doesn't under my plan. International trade for technology and commodities is throttled. Scientific panels construct technology targets, and no consumer goods are made until research and development, along with manufacturing, hits those targets. This avoids the bulk of waste generated by intermediate technology.

My thesis is that the consumer driven, international trade style of economy must come to an end for life to continue on the planet.

"He can't, and his business will migrate to China, India, Brazil, etc. In a company with 100 full time employees you will go, first, to 125 under-employed employees and finally to NO employees when the work moves to the third world."

This is the simple fate of first world economies in an environment of global corporate dominance. It is essentially business running not just your entire economy, but your entire country. The individual's ideas of what constitutes a good life is just disregarded. Yet this is the project of civilization. People did not die storming a Beach so that GE is free to move its factories to another country.

It is becoming more an more obvious to me that there is nothing in it (the global economy) for my welfare. If the global economy constitutes a mortal threat to me, why should I support it?

The 8-day week and its intersection with the contemporary parameters of the current coersive system doesn't present itself with any dilemmas to me. The guy that slaves away 2080 hours a year, being a cog in the machine, at a job he can't stand, for a company threatening to leave the country at the earliest opportunity, can fuck off.

I tried to explain guaranteed incomes to people recently. The immediate response was along the lines of "Who will work at McDonald's"? My answer was, what if no one HAD to work at McDonald's?

The problem is simple: consumer-driven global trade, with the assumption that everyone's interests and best intentions are served by global corporate competitive markets is wrong as soon as you can show ecological damage threatening life as we know it. That milestone has occurred and the system "en toto" is up for reconsideration.

I am cheered by the recent analysis that the domestic US economy could function, supplying all our needs should it simply choose to disconnect from the International economy.

At some point people are going to ask (probably after our economy tanks due to Eurozone/China.further coutsourcing) what is the benefit of global trade? And those companies that want to leave the US should be invited to do so.

We should move to nationalize all assets and federalize all corporate charters.

Its critical to start as soon as possible if we want to survive.

After we purge the government and economy of global corporate influences, we can then be in a position to dictate to other countries the actions we will and will not tolerate. For example, if China does not get on a carbon budget, we should shoot down all their satellites and put cruise missiles on all their coal-fired power plants.

Unplanned economies create massive levels of destruction and engender an atmosphere of forced slavery and coersion in labor markets, have a disintegrative effect on society and democracy...

How about "planned economies" Bustin J, like say, Stalins 5 year planned economy in 1932 in the Soviet Union? What do they engender?

--WSP7

"and i can definitely see these drugs pushing people over the edge."

I saw some ad for a 'scrip to treat psorriasis the other day, and the list of "side effects" included "increased cancer risk"! Oh, and in rare cases stroke and death. To treat psorriasis!

I don't understand the toxin worship in this country. If it ain't strong it ain't any good! Herbalists don't start with the rocket-propelled grenade, and then back off if they damage the target; they start with the pea shooter and step up to the wrist rocket if absolutely necessary. I've never found herbal medicine to be insufficient for non-trauma problems.

My wife's herbal skin cream heals psorriasis (among about 50 other things), quickly too, and it's food grade!! It's list of "side effects" might include the desire to get a cracker to spread some on...

We have got to stop worshipping poison for its strength!

Now you sound like Schumacher! Or maybe Shiva...

funny !
you luv my pies !

i told my friend who makes great pies what you said, and she doesn't believe it.

i believe what you said about guys and pies.

you are funny sometimes.

i'm not on here so much, but now and then.
been busy with 'real' life so to speak.

I dunno, Sweden seems pretty nice, and I believe it is about as socialist as they come. Russia isn't really a very good example of a good planned economy, as the Communist dictatorship just seemed to continue the culture of the Czars and the Mongols under a different name.

"Let's take care of the easy and more-or-less inconsequential stuff first. It's 45.625 weeks, 45.625 extra (Arbordays) off, not 42. "

Shit! For a second there I thought we had finally discovered the ultimate question! Damn, damn, damn.

Rest in peace, Douglas Adams.

Ya Jim was impressed by Sweden, too.

I had a girlfriend from Sweden in college. She told me it was cold and dark there, not fit for human habitation 9 months out of the year. The whole family emigrated here.

--WSP7

Here's about where my calendar of freedom treads. If I'm not mistaken, I THINK it's Tuesday. Of course, my calendar carries a certain freedom from money too;)

Dale, displaying racist, mysogonistic leanings on a blog under an alias is hardly flying a Nazi flag from your rooftop. Anyone can be an asshole anonymously. I wouldn't label it courageous.
-------------------------------
good point.

nicely and neatly done (aside from the extra worker being hoisted somehow, or being plied with drugs; as in "higher"),
================

Oh shit ... 2 mistakes in 2 days ... after going error-free since the Ginsberg Decision in '68.

But on to substance. If I get your drift you think I'm stuck in some old paradigm and need to think outside the box. Maybe so. Give me a hint. Where is the fallacy in my logic?

Go back and listen to Cuomo's nomination speech of Clinton in 92, it will make you realize how far downhill things have gone.
Disaster Capitalism indeed

Yeah, but we're talking about their top-notch socialistic infrastructure, not the crappy climate/weather. :)

i could go for your basic income for all in return for the voluntary sterilizations you advocated a couple of months back. All income groups have ability and responsibility to contribute to a better society in their on way.
we are all to blame for our situation . rich , middle and poor.

30? Million more 'Americans'
NAFTA
Most favored nations status for China
8 years of Bush

Yes the last 20 years have really been something.

"we are all to blame for our situation . rich , middle and poor."

Perhaps, but not equally. Those with the most money have the most power and hence the most influence on the direction of society.

I mean, do you really think that a guy living in a box under an overpass bears equal "blame" as a multi-billionaire who owns entire corporations and is able to easily manipulate the policies of governments?

Hey BJ, what if there are some people who don't want to go along with your well thought out plan?

Or is that what Concentration Camps are for?

--WSP7

Myself, I believe that the reason many of these problems never get solved is that people aren't talking about the same things.

For example, liberals never understand punishment, they always think criminals need psychoanalysis and job training. They come out of the woodwork when the state tries to execute somebody, whining to beat hell, as though every murder was done with compassion and anesthesia. They can put up with 15 thousand murders a year, but not an execution.

On the other hand, conservatives never seem to grasp that everything in life isn't there for some sonavabitch to make a lot of money. Minimum wage laws, child labor laws, job safety, the forty hour week, these things were done because they were the right thing to do for many people, not because it was good for somebodies Goddamn corporate bottom line. Conservatives think everything should turn a profit, they don't give a fuck about people. And the ones usually bitching about 'welfare', are the ones who never came close to needing it.

It's usually the same with twerp war mongers, are their kids the ones getting their balls shot off, not usually.

Most liberals have no problem with long prison sentences for violent crimes and will tell you that if you ask them. Where you lose them (or at least me) is the draconian sentencing for victimless crimes like drug use or dealing. Approximately 2/3 of the people in prison are there because of non-violent drug offenses. Not only is this overly harsh, we simply can't afford it anymore. Additionally, imprisoning so many people has created a permanent underclass that can't vote, in many cases can't receive public assistance, and in most cases, cannot find jobs. Rehabilitation and reintegration into society is far more cost effective than simply locking them up again when they inevitably return to a life of crime, because they have no other good options (except to shrivel up and die).

Trevor Writes:

At the end of Three Days of the Condor the guy who is not Robert Redford, the guy who is the evil CIA operative who has been trying to ‘bring him home’ throughout the film - which we have guessed is a euphemism for ‘take him out’ - is talking about why the CIA does bad, manipulative things in the world. He tells Redford that it is simple economics and anyway, what would Redford expect them to do? Redford says he should ask the American people first. The CIA man looks at Redford in the way so many people do when confronted with the naivety of the person they are talking to, but finally replies, “Ask them when there's no heat and they're cold. Ask them when their engines stop. Ask them when people who have never known hunger start going hungry. Want to know something? They won't want us to ask them. They'll want us to get it for them.”

The whole way through this most remarkable book I found myself thinking of that line and that last scene from Three Days of the Condor. This is one of the most fascinating books I’ve read in quite a long time. It reads like a Le Carre novel or something by Graham Green, and yet it is autobiographical.

A young man becomes drawn into international finance and has the role of convincing third world countries (particularly the leaders of these countries) to take out loans that are so huge their countries will never be able to repay them. They do this so as to ensure that these countries become satellites orbiting the American Empire. His job was to make these countries compliant, dependent, and endlessly economically exploitable.

Perkins asserts that the economic hit men were potentially only phase one of what could become a three phase attack on the democratic rights and independence of foreign nations. If bribing the leaders of countries with massive loans they could never repay didn’t work, then the jackals were sent in to kill selected targets and to create mayhem that would ensure the ‘right’ people would be put into power. If this didn’t work, then US troops were sent in. He gives instance after instance of where this pattern was applied in Latin America, the Middle East and Asia over a period of about three decades. It would be hard to imagine someone from the US reading this book without a growing sense of shame. It is hard to read this book from anywhere in the first world without feelings of responsibility, disgust and self-loathing. He reminds us continually that our lavish and unsustainable life style is only possible by the exploitation unto death of large parts of the globe.

This is also a remarkably well written autobiography – if Noam Chomsky was to make up a character who walked the path of evil before converting and walking the path of righteousness, he’s have come up with someone pretty much like John Perkins. Perkins does not come out of this book a saint, but he does come out of it a bit of a hero – I think.

It surprises me more I can say that this book ever got published. I believe we live in times when global capitalism is so cocksure of its pre-eminence and unassailability that it doesn’t even bother to cover up its deeds. I think I preferred it when the rulers of the world at least pretended they were concerned we might overthrown them if we caught them at their cheating. I think I preferred it when they would lie to us, if for no better reason than purely out of shame. Now they don’t even bother to treat us to that level of respect. We have become completely contemptible. Where they can do whatever they like and then rub our noses in it and we will only shake our heads and complain about how powerless we are.

This really is a fascinating book, fascinating in the literal sense of having one’s attention stolen as we read. Like I said, this reads like a spy novel, but made even more compelling by it being true.

This book demands to be read.

What will America look like a year from now?
Nothing like today.
International Banker Ponzi game is coming to a end. More debt in the world than assets. The reset button will be set and it will be ugly.
JP Morgan and Goldman Sachs have over 100 trillion in derivatives. This fraud is the biggest crime in the history of the world.

"What I called "bizarre" is your focus on this particular issue, when there are so many other more pressing issues. Life and death issues.
I really don't see immigrants as a life and death issue."
-wage, on my insistence on reducing LEGAL immigration into the United States ASAP-

Wow, Wage - thank you so much.
Just when I think I can't learn anything more about myself from this CFN blog - you and I come up with this.

I am a tree farmer. My dad was a tree farmer. My granddad was a tree farmer. My view of the future is that of a tree farmer.

30 years - which, apparently seems like a long time to you and to most folks, is only one crop cycle (southern yellow pines are fast growing trees) for me.

If my grandfather, my dad, or I screwed up something important in the past, or today - then I accept the responsibility that my own children or grandchildren WILL pay the price.

This view of the future - as something that happens slowly, but with immensely important consequences - is second nature to me; and apparently very rare in average Americans.

=========================
Shift to immigration. Sure, someone can argue that it's not a problem for us in 2011. The lights are on, law enforcement is well supplied with weapons and gasoline, and the food trucks are running reliably.

I foresee a future - maybe in 50 days, in 50 months, or in 50 years -

Where the lights go out, the food trucks stop running, and the police (and even the military) lose control of wide swaths of the US - urban, suburban, and rural.

ALL of the world will be MUCH better off - if the US faces that future with the lowest possible population. Thus, reducing LEGAL immigration rates TODAY, is the only sane course.

This will make life slightly less desperate for any potential survivors, who happen to live in the US - in 50 months or 50 years.

It also makes US demands on world resources - whether extracted by our Corporations to supply US Citizens - or coerced by our Military to supply Military Demands AND "protect" US citizens -

Lower total US population makes US demands less likely to cause ecosystem collapse that will make human life on earth - impossible.

If there's a flaw in my logic - someone needs to point it out - without recourse to Pollyanna or a vague Hope that things will turn out OK - somehow.

So these people will be consuming resources where ever they are, whether it be in America or another country. I don't see how it matters. There's nowhere to run and hide. And if your argument is that Americans consume more resources than other people, this is not likely to be the case in the mega-collapse scenario you envision, where resource consumption among the pleebs will be (more or less) equalized throughout the world.

I think there's actually much better arguments against allowing people to enter and live here illegally than the kind of roundabout ecological argument you present. You could also make similar arguments that legal immigration should be throttled. This is well worn territory so I won't bother spelling it out.

"mega-collapse scenario you envision, where resource consumption among the pleebs will be (more or less) equalized throughout the world."
-turkle-

Turkle, man, you are crazy if you think American politicians won't use Corporate power and American military power to keep US residents (plebes or not) as well fed and well supplied as possible - so as to keep themselves in power for as long as possible.

HELL, Turkle - they are already doing it - and have been since at least 1942.

====================
And if you've got a better ecological argument against legal and illegal immigration - spell it out, man, spell it out. Because I've never heard it from you.

From Bustin (we're all gonna DIE) J - yes, but not from you, Turk.

Let's hear what you've got.

"....better arguments against allowing people to enter and live here illegally than the kind of roundabout ecological argument you present..."
-turkle-

Anyway, Turkle reread my post. I'm not trying to make an ecological argument - except that I don't want the US to be the main cause of global collapse because of immigration fueled population growth.

My argument is, rather, that I'd rather face collapse (or famine, or civil war, or plague, or death) in a country of 313,000,000 - than in a country of 400,000,000 PLUS, PLUS.

Because EVERYONES'S statistical chance of survival is greatly increased - by lower US population.

I was basically using your scenario...

"Where the lights go out, the food trucks stop running, and the police (and even the military) lose control of wide swaths of the US - urban, suburban, and rural."

If that occurs, how could the US standard of living not fall drastically? Color me confused. Actually, if it gets that bad, with food shortages and what-not, you'd likely see a population decrease as in post-Soviet Russia.

My main arguments against immigration would not be ecological. Population control is the key issue, which won't occur anyways, because humans are obsessed with the freedom to breed, and it is hard-wired into our genes to procreate. Worrying about immigration is like shifting around deck chairs on the Titantic, IMHO.

I am actually a pretty deep doomer, based on what I know about Peak Oil and Climate Change. I'm not a very hopeful person, especially about the distant future (say 50 or 100 years). I just don't really advocate totalitarianism. The chips will fall where they may. There's really not much to be done about it by any one person. At least, that's how I see it.

For the first time, the Green Party of the US will be fronted by an aggressive Marijuana/hemp/medical Cannabis activist, Jill Stein, MD.

Jill Stein is a true Progressive with a strong voice for a sound economy, peace, justice, equality, workers’ rights, and environmental integrity and she is running for President of the United States.

http://www.jillstein.org/stein_opposes_keystone_pipeline

Jill Stein will end the wars, end the Drug War, end the Obama Death Squads, end the environmental destruction. She is a dedicated courageous valiant crusader, just when we need one!

You are kidding yourself, prog! Get off your high horse. The US already is and will be the source of major environmental catastrophe, as we use 25% of the planet's resources and apparently, according to Dick Cheney, don't intend to stop anytime soon. We have already launched highly destructive wars based on acquiring carbon fuel resources, primarily in Iraq. Our government has refused to implement any meaningful checks on carbon emissions. Many people are still driving around gargantuan Land Boat SUV Cruisers to get their fried chicken and Cheez Doodles at the supermarket. There is a whole contingent of know nothings in this country that believe Climate Change isn't even real and that Peak Oil is a conspiracy of the oil companies to defraud them. The Jesus freaks even think that God put the earth here so we could have dominion over it.

So get real, already! You live in the wrong country to be getting so damn sanctimonious about this stuff.

WSP7 said, "Hey BJ, what if there are some people who don't want to go along with your well thought out plan?"

Guaranteed minimum income makes sure people have the lower orders of Maslow's fulfilled so they can generate actual value and fulfill their human potential.

Hows that global economy working out for you? Its killing the planet, allowing capital to flee the country, has reduced our sovereignty, subverted the government, and turned us all into servile peons. The rat-race of dog-eat-dog capitalism means your "quality of life" could easily go to negative zero. You are instructed to consume and obey, or go to jail. You have the choice between meaningless work which has no future or being cast off from society. Make no mistake, we are not out of the 20th century woods yet. Just about everything is a warmed over repeat of the past's horrendous mistakes.

As markets were opened, and regulations (planning!) were removed, corporations just took the money and ran. They sold everyone out. They are here to make money off of 'consumers'. They don't care about 'citizens'. They get irritated every time 'citizens' start formulating plans to help themselves. They don't care about America- its all about their investor's stock price. They own the government. They lock voices and choices out of the political system. They have taken over the planet and are actually killing us.

This what not what Jefferson, Adams, and Washington had in mind. They would not approve. There is something called the bill of rights, and if we want more rights on that bill, apparently, all we have to do is revolt. Sounds good to me.

"How about "planned economies" Bustin J, like say, Stalins 5 year planned economy in 1932 in the Soviet Union? What do they engender?"

Actually it engendered the rapid industrialization of that country. There were millions killed for purely paranoid political reasons which had nothing to do with the economic theory. It doesn't have to happen that way. A period of adjustment (5 years sounds right) would be required to build all the factories we need to reignite the productive capacity of this country and get us on a road toward true sustainability. Internal competition could drive all the innovation we need to get us to the levels of technology we need to be at to solve the problem of the world's population killing us all.

When it comes down to it, either we have a weak America, and the world degraded to destruction by a headless corporate machine, or we have a strong America, and the world rescued from the mindless production of leisure and luxury items. As it is now I just see America trading away its influence and advantages. I see America as controlled entirely by corporate interests. The health and welfare of its people are secondary at best. Corporations don't concern themselves with any concept of quality of life it doesn't link directly to itself as a system. Therefore we are taught that we can't have an 8 day week, or time to be with our children or families. We are taught to accept that "creative destruction" in the economy is a good thing. But anyone knows just stepping back how hollow and short-sighted and materialistic it all is, how vain and selfish corporate motives are. Part of the big lie is that all other options aren't any good. Its the global corporate system or else!

If we contracted into a national economy, there would be massive repercussions. For example, coffee would be hard to find. Capitalists would scream "I told you so" but necessity is the mother of invention. We synthesize the caffeine, and Trip grows a bumper crop of chicory in the "mountains of Georgia". In 5 years we are all drinking domestic synthetic coffee. In 5 years we are enjoying a domestically produced iPad(4?). We are converting to solar big time.

Oh yeah- I loves me some planned economy. The unplanned economy has all the wasteful, oil and gas industry developing going on, the big road to nowhere. The debt morass. This global economy thing has got to go. We have to figure out how to save ourselves, and then work on helping other nations. As it stands we are a danger to ourselves and the planet.

This entire Greece, Spain, Euro / Econ Gordian Knot mess could be resolved very simply, I think these people have the right idea. "I say we call it even..."

you have to watch the rest;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2s1MspmfEwg

What the heck are we spending all this money on defense for if we don't get to use it?

I'm done, time to plant the potatos...

"true sustainability"

I'm sorry to break it to you, but as far as humans and their high impact industrial civilization is concerned, there is really no such thing.

Vlad, I can't seem to find your comment about Ianto Evans' book "The Hand-Sculpted House" - perhaps it's a mental relic from last week - but I very highly recommend it. Like right up there with Schumacher, Fukuoka, and Toby Hemenway's permaculture book. Speaking of, I was deep in a re-read of "The One Straw Revolution" when Evans' book arrived, having trouble wrapping it up after 5 weeks of what should've been a 3 day read, and I have barely put Evans' book down since. It's laid out like a text book; not like Mollison's "bible", so huge, but 4 columns on the open pages still. I'm about 100 pages in after just a few days, and, considering the fact that I often read every sentence twice, making good progress. It's the first thing that's lit me up like this in a while.

Where we are in the world right now, so many people, such desperate times, so much unemployment and homelessness, would it not be useful and empowering to get the message that you can actually build your own house for less than 10k dollars? And not just a house, but the kind of house that speaks to humans on a cellular level. The kind of house we built for ourselves throughout our migration and settlement of planet Earth, up until fairly recently. A beautiful house that cradles its inhabitants, and, properly designed and placed, almost eliminates the need to heat and cool the space. How much better off would we be if we did away with both rent/mortgage and heating/cooling in our budgets?

As Evans points out, the etymological meaning of the word mortgage is "death pledge." And I no longer have any interest in enriching the banks at my own expense.

James Howard Kunstler replied to comment from NuYawkFrankie | November 7, 2011 9:33 AM | Reply

NUYAWKFRANKIE writes: You had to pathetically try to defelect attention & settle for weasel worlds like "Jesus terrorists" didnt you Jim?

I consider the New Apostolic Reformation org, and others like it (along with their candidate fronts, such as Perry, Bachman, Palin), to be a danger to our society. They are Jesus Terrorists.

--JHK

Jim:

What is a 'Jesus Terrorist", anyway? You are promoting a Jew in the WH. Who the hell terrorized JC in the first place?

Further, if you think Bloomberg is not in bed with the crooked banksters, think again. World History is loaded with evidence of corruption at the hands of his ilk.

This country is toast. Give Obummer the job for another four. Finish the old gray mare off. Start over. Rebuild her in a sustainable fashion.

Best,

Joe Headrick

PS Do you have any good recipes in "World Made By Hand"? When your belly button is about a half inch away from your spinal column, they'll likely come in handy. You and I are roughly the same age. We will both live long enough to see lifes coming attraction. You have skillfully written in detail about such a future. I know you know its a' comin'.

"If that occurs, how could the US standard of living not fall drastically? Color me confused."
-turkle-

Turkle - I'm advancing a two part argument.

One - the US population will be the LAST population on the planet to experience a drastic fall in standard of living. I can present arguments for this - related to our political systems and military power - but these arguments seem self-evident to me.

Two - The larger US population (unable/unwilling to sacrifice because of # "One" argument above - may be the extra nudge that takes global ecosystems over the edge to the point that human life becomes impossible.

======================
Beyond that - how can the US be an advocate for population control worldwide - when we are allowing our OWN population to increase much faster than any other 1st world country????

================
I understand you're a 50 to 100 year doomer as regards humanity on Earth. I understand the arguments.

I choose to fight for a better future (or at least a chance at life) for humans in 100 years.

And the best way I see to to it is to work with the asoka.'s of the world on new ideas.

"We need negative population growth in the United States," as asoka. says.

I cannot see a single reason not to work, hard, to achieve this goal.

Met mentioned: "If bribing the leaders of countries with massive loans they could never repay didn’t work, then the jackals were sent in to kill selected targets and to create mayhem that would ensure the ‘right’ people would be put into power. "

The psychology of the progfessional soldier is the ultimate corporate man. He will go anywhere and do anything as long as he can.

Boys are brought up to aspire to be ass-kickers. They fill the ranks of the military. On its face, the proposition to dodge bullets and IED's for what they pay shows that it is not the cash inducement that hooks them, its the rush you get by holding a machine gun and killing people.

These hit squads are on the public payroll, torturing people with electric wires and raping women and children, and its all secret. The psychology is potent; these guys were hand picked from the military because they are obedient and willing to be the killer robots they are. Testosterone is an amazing thing. It allows you to not particularly care about the fate of your society, or democracy. It allows you to cynically accept that human societies are essentially animalistic hierarchies, and accept one's assigned role (alpha male). A few of these guys snap out of it; Stan Goff comes to mind.

Hot Water

Good short interview of Erin Brokovich on Dylan Ratigan today. You can see the segment on Dylan
s MSNBC site.

Brockovich has a new novel out called "Hot Water". Deals with the issue of nuclear reactors and the cases of Cancer clusters and other diseases relating to the locations of the reactors.

She also discusses how dangerous Fracking is and how we take municipal water supplies for granted when so many Americans still use well water. It takes many millions of gallons of water in conjunction with chemicals per well. This effects the ground water and aquifers and we will have water shortages in the future as well.

She said she will be working with Google to develop an interactive map which shows where the problems are nationally.

ProCon, I am shifting my position on immigration a little bit.

I am willing to give in to the reality of borders. I now believe international borders should be recognized as areas of bi-national interdependence and international border areas should be authentic fair trade zones where people are free to travel across borders for work, shopping, or recreation.

I believe immigrants should have the right to receive medical care,education,housing and access to all available public benefits and services.

I support legalization programs to provide immigrants with the ability to obtain permanent residency status.

I favor a reduction of the private and public militarization of the U.S.-Mexican border and protection against intimidation by public officials or private individuals.

The legalization time line should be fair,simplified,transparent,affordable and attainable within five years after entry. Immediate and full legalization should be offered for all immigrants and their families currently residing in the United States.

Enforcement of immigration laws is the responsibility of the federal Immigration and Customs Enforcement Agency (ICE). All immigrants should have the right to be secure in their houses and protected against unreasonable search and seizure and to be protected against arbitrary arrest or detention based on racial or cultural profiling.

Interpreters should be available in emergency rooms,hospitals and healthcare clinics.

I support policies that restore and guarantee the civil rights provided for under the Constitution of the United States,which specifically states that the rights apply to all persons residing in the United States,must apply to all races and ethnicities equally.

The internet is the last refuge of free speech having been driven out of Academia by the Marxists and Race Hustlers. But for how much longer will the Internet remain free? People like you are working to destroy this last bastion of Western Culture. Hate never sleeps.

"ProCon, I am shifting my position on immigration a little bit." asoka.

Awesome, asoka., shifts in position, if genuine, only occur when thought is occurring.

So, how about some ideas for helping the United States achieve negative population growth, as you recommended an a post last week?

"We need negative population growth in the United States," as asoka. says.

==================

Yes, this has been my position for over 40 years and is the reason I got a vasectomy. I did not want "replacement" procreation. I wanted a negative growth... no replacement of Asoka.

Nevertheless, I favor all the things Wage has said also. It must be voluntary. It should be subsidized. Abortion and birth control should be freely available. Women should be given every opportunity for education and should be empowered so they make the decisions over their bodies.

I don't care about working towards zero population growth, because it is like banging your head against the wall. No one is going to listen to you. Procreation is wired into our very genes. People will not stop creating children unless they are forced by government policy or sanctions, which is considered a no-go area by nearly all the world's politicians. Or the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse are going to sort this problem out in a Malthusian fashion. The earnest efforts of people like you will not made one shred of difference (no offense). It is like telling people to stop eating.

This is already happening in Africa, where infant mortality is quite high in some places. Even then, the fastest growing populations on the planet are in already overpopulated places (at least ecologically speaking) like Africa and the Middle East. What does this tell you? People are not going to stop having children until Nature forces their hand, and even then they may still breed like rabbits in order than a few of their many offspring survive. That's just how it works: fast, cheap, and out of control. People are obsessed with continuing "their" genes. Read The Selfish Gene by Dawkins. If they weren't, then they wouldn't be here in the first place.

Sorry to pour on the doom and gloom, but I just think these high-minded ideas that you'll be able to have any appreciable influence on the behavior of 7 billion+ people is quite naive. It is virtually impossible to get anyone to concede a point on the Internet, much less convince them not to do something that is biologically hard-wired.

Abortion and birth control should be freely available. INCLUDING THE MORNING AFTER PILL.

Fight patriarchy. End domestic violence. Respect women. Support Planned Parenthood.

"The internet is the last refuge of free speech having been driven out of Academia by the Marxists and Race Hustlers."

Garbage.

I share your enthusiasm having seen the book. I've always yearned for something like that and seeing the book reminded me of my own desire. But Permaculture books are so expensive. I decided to wait a bit and see if I could get a used one for less. It's probably a vain hope.

Everything is so unnatural in moderern life. The Quabbin Reservoir in Massachusetts was created over three whole towns. Could they do today considering modern building materials?

I was also wondering what happened with your situation on the 300 acres - something bad or just a desire to have your own land? If you don't wish to get into it, that's fine.

Procreation is wired into our very genes.

===============

No it isn't. Among married women aged 15–44 years in 1995, 41 percent were surgically sterile (15.3 million women), 26 percent reported having a tubal ligation, 7 percent had a hysterectomy, and 12 percent were currently living with a husband or partner who had a vasectomy.

So many millions of people surgically sterilized by choice kind of argues against procreation being "hard-wired" ... we are not machines. As rational human beings we are capable of overcoming our animal instincts.

How is this any different than what you already believed? At least your previous viewpoint was an honest reflection of your real belief, namely no borders. Now you pay lip service. All the Churches practice the same verbal hypocrisy.

Baby steps, Vlad. My advocating for a complete elimination of borders was not getting anywhere.

I think if that you keep pressing these blue-eyed reptiles, these fascist imperialist scumfucks, which is what they are, sooner or later they will realize that what they are doing will not pass and that they better reform or become ostracized and outcast by the rest of the world. If you press them, you will affect change in their behavior.

Where do you get these statistics, asoka? There is absolutely no way I'll believe that 41 percent figure.

At any rate, that's presumably just the US. The situation in much of the rest of the world is vastly different.

I will concede the point that we can overcome our biological programming (sometimes), but machines would not be the word I'd use. Instead, animals, which we clearly are.

Yes, the need to breed is clearly hard-wired into us biologically, asoka, or you wouldn't even be here to write this. Get what I'm saying?

SOURCE: Female Sterilization: Summary of Surgical Sterilization in the United States: Prevalence and Characteristics, 1965-1995 issued by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention

You have to add all the percentages for different forms of voluntary sterilization to get to 41%

The need to breed is waning. It is not hard-wired. Economic and educational factors influence decisions to have a child, not just hormones.

animals, which we clearly are.

============

Of course we are animals. But a different kind of animal from the ones you see on Discovery Channel. A rational animal, capable of reasoning, an animal aware of its own mortality and capable of making a decision not to procreate.

What was that movie that used pies as the basic motif? Was it "The Waitress"?

A good pie is a thing of beauty - an apt symbol for both time and eternal life. Just looking at its circular perfection is to contemplate eternity. Eating it is part of time - and it's gone in no time!

You might also enjoy Stephen King's "Thinner" for a look at how bad bad pies can be.

You guys exchanged 1000 Palestinians for one, ONE Israeli prisoner. Whatever happened to no negotiation with terrorists? You have fallen, gone soft, and their triumph is just a matter of time. My Blue Eyes can see it. And don't it make you brown eyes blue?

Global population is still growing and is projected to reach around 9 or 10 billion in 2050. Given that the world is already in deep population overshoot, due to agricultural systems being primarily based on fossil fuels, 7 billion people is already "too many" in terms of long-term ecological health of the planet, much less 2-3 billion on top of this. This should seem obvious to you (does it?) by looking at depletion of ocean fisheries, degradation of the environment, air pollution including CO2, shrinking farmlands, food crisis, massive levels of poverty, etc.

The question is not whether we can make the choice to procreate (some of us can) but if enough of us will to make any appreciable difference in the outcome that will follow this population overshoot. The data argues against it.

Nice segue, JackieBlue2U! Yes, it was the Waitress and here are two pies Turkle might not know about, but go along with the CDC statistics Turkle cannot believe:

I Don't Want Earl's Baby Pie

Baby Screamin' Its Head Off In The Middle of the Night & Ruinin' My Life Pie

Global population is still growing and is projected to reach around 9 or 10 billion in 2050.

========================

Jeez, Turkle, we went over this last week. Maybe you are not paying attention.

Global population projections have the world population leveling off and stabilizing in 2079 and 2080, then decreasing until 2100.

Global population is not going to be "9 or 10 billion in 2050" or even in this century ... the demographers have spoken (Tripp and I had a discussion about how they arrived at the projections using mortality, fertility, etc.) and I cited my source on that, too.

I don't normally cross-post, but I wrote some on-topic short story fiction a while back that people over at ZeroHedge seemed to enjoy, maybe someone here will like it too.

http://madscienceunlimited.com/fiction/

Links at the bottom of the page.

Mostly harmless. Funny, and a little racey at times. Quite disturbing at others. The world of the destroyers is textured with pleasure, friendship and casual annihilation.

Enjoy! c@

That CIA agent we have as PM is a national disgrace. I agree with you 100%.

I got my data from the mid case in the UN population growth study.

http://www.un.org/esa/population/publications/longrange2/WorldPop2300final.pdf

By 2100, there's going to be roughly zero oil supplies left, which will have decimated world agricultural production, and this doesn't even take into account the potentially catastrophic effects of Climate Change, which is likely to be along the lines of scientists' worst projections.

So, I'd agree that population will be falling off at some point in the 21st century, though it may be more like dropping off a cliff than a gentle downward slope.

By 2100, there's going to be roughly zero oil supplies left, which will have decimated world agricultural production

===============

No, before 2100.

Hence, mortality.

Hence, no world population of "9 or 10 Billion" this century.

"I don't care about working towards zero population growth, because it is like banging your head against the wall. No one is going to listen to you. Procreation is wired into our very genes."
-turkle-

Bustin, Turkle, Asoka.

I am working towards zero population growth INSIDE the United States. The goal is achievable - "all" we have to do is curtail LEGAL and illegal immigration into the United States.

The goal is Replacement Level Immigration - that achieves ZPG within the US, quite rapidly, as the latest and last round of immigrants achieve the education, female empowerment, etc - that is demonstrated to take birthrates to near ZPG, in countries around the world - that are at or above the minimum required socioeconomic level.

===========================
If the US fails to do this, it puts us in an untenable and arrogant position - demanding other countries do something (in this case, reduce their own population growth rates) that we, in the US, refuse to do.

Right now, by 2040 or so, of all the world's countries - only the US is projected to have a GROWING population.

That's Death for civilization OR humanity -

Barring big changes in the political, social, and military culture of the US -

Such changes are unlikely -
and should not be assumed -
when the stakes are so high.

Asoka,

Ron Paul comes off like a complete and utter buffoon in that exchange. He should disqualify himself.

Ron Paul is a complete and utter buffoon ... and a giant hypocrite since he has lived off the government teat being paid government salaries and accepting government perks and government-paid health care for most of his life, in the Air Force and in Congress.

Ron Paul is the worst kind of hypocrite who doesn't even see the contradiction that he is not practicing what he preaches.

For what it's worth, I've gotten more use out of my permaculture books than the (admittedly) fairly steep price tags. Remember this is still a niche market, and these guys usually print in small lots to avoid excess production. I know that everyone who publishes with Chelsea Green encourages sharing books, buying one for the library, etc. Still, the book in question is marked $35; and it's 330 nutrient-dense pages that should save the owner-builder tens of thousands of dollars, if not more. (I got it for $21 from Amazon.com). I've certainly saved enough money from using the wisdom in my permaculture books to pay for them all many times over. Besides, at such a price, the number of them on your shelves is sort of a testament to how long you've been doing it. I usually pick up a book or two at each gathering, and I've got about 3' worth now, a full shelf. I hope these books fill my grandchildren's shelves one day.

I'll fill you in on the farm dilemma in a bit. Need to go finish kids' baths.

Should anyone want to brainstorm/contribute on/to the Occupy RNC Tampa Bay then please see my Facebook page "Tim Brown" or link over to the ORNC Facebook page.

I want to help with donations, education, and triage for anyone who wants to show up. But I especially think we need to to focus on the so-called "mainstream." If mothers and fathers, working stiffs, single moms & their kids and the lucky can all learn together about what is at stake--if we can be persuasive and helpful--then we can take Occupy to a place of legitimacy hitherto unknown by the millions of Americans who presently hear us as static.

So join me in my effort to contribute so that I can present the story and the evidence in Hi-Fidelity to those we need to reach.

Let's all localize, get kindly & friendly, and help those people that may yet understand.

Vlad to Asoka - How is this any different than what you already believed? At least your previous viewpoint was an honest reflection of your real belief, namely no borders. Now you pay lip service.

Asoka's response - Baby steps, Vlad. My advocating for a complete elimination of borders was not getting anywhere.

Pope to College of Cardinals - My touting of Jesus as our savior and the one true Son of God has not been been cutting any ice with the masses so I'm taking a new tack.

Q - It really is sickening isn't it Vlad? You'd think I'd get used to this sort of thing by now but I never do.

You'd think I'd get used to this sort of thing by now but I never do.

===================

It pleases me that you are still capable of surprise! :)

By the way, I attended Catholic mass when it was said in Latin with the priest's back to the congregants. That wasn't getting anywhere, so they changed the mass. The Pope changed it. The change was welcome, not sickening, at least not to me.

What happens to the world population is simply a matter of mathematics. First assume that the current population figure of 7 billion is more or less accurate. Then assume that the rate of increase of population remains stable. Now these two assumptions aren't necessarily true, but just for the sake of argument, let's assume they are, which, again more or less, is reasonable.

If the world's population is projected to be 10 billion by the year 2050 (estimates range between 9 billion and 11 billion), that implies an annual growth rate of about 1.5%. Using the "rule of 72", the world's population would then double every 47 years (dividing 72 by the rate of increase of 1.5%).

At a doubling cycle of 47 years, 6 doubling cycles would take 6x47 or 282 years. Using the year 2050 as the base year, that means the estimated world's population of 9 billion at that time, would double 6 times or increase by a factor of 64 in 282 years. In other words, at today's estimated rate of population increase, the world's population would be 576 billion people by 2332 A.D.

Now we know that's impossible because the Earth couldn't sustain that many people. So sometime in the future we have to inevitably either drastically reduce our current birth rate - which is an action that humans undertake - or we have to drastically reduce the population itself either by our own actions through war or euthanasia, or through nature's actions, over which we have no control, or some combination of both.

This isn't a matter for discussion, it's a mathematical certainty. The numbers might change, but the principal remains the same.

About the farm. This issue has come to a head only recently. For the last 10 months we've believed one thing, and the farm owners have (so they say) believed another. We had no desire to come to Tifton. Actually when we heard about the offer to come here we were resistant because of the lack of ownership. But they pitched it well.

"You'll be partners in the transition of this 300 acre family from, moving from conventional cotton/peanut rotations to organic perrenial production. In exchange we'll give you a place to live and fix up."

So we did it. We had every intention of putting this place on the map, creating a regional hub of permacultural excellence in action. I envisioned a thousand visitors a month strolling through our orchards, by the ponds, buying organic fruit, nursery stock, and grass-fed beef.

Until this last meeting. After all the other meetings, which supported our perception of what was happening, this last meeting was about a new lease. A very restrictive new lease, very fearful. It's like an attorney got ahold of them and shook them, and asked them what kind of dream world were they living in? One that we were enjoying, to be honest. But during this last meeting I finally asked why we were being shut out of farm operations. Why are you renewing the lease for that noxious cotton right outside our organic orchard? We talked about that being our land to work with after this first homesteading year.

Blank stares. No memory of this discussion. I told them that it was confusing to us, that we had been courted to come help in this great transition, and that it felt like we were being shut out. Had we done something wrong?

We didn't court you. We were offering you a port in the storm. We were told that you were desperate to get out of the ghetto, and thought we could help. Yeah, sure, thanks for wasting the last year of our lives. We can live and garden anywhere, and truth be told, this is one of the last places on Earth we'd have chosen to do it. The gnats are just god-awful. Plus my sister is here, and can't stand her or her spoiled rotten children. They make my children crazy.

So after 3 failed attempts to do something community-oriented, we're clamming up. The vision has been compromised. We're liquidating what assets we have, and buying a small piece of property in a place with no gnats, where it's 10 degrees cooler and we can live without AC. Summer here without AC was hard. It knocked us down. But we can do it up there. Especially in a cob structure. And the farmers markets are waaay better there than here.

This is our last play. All we have left. We love north Georgia, and are exited about building a cob house, and to be working markets with people we know and love like Mean Dovey Cooledge up in Blue Ridge, and my brother in Atlanta. Maybe we'll even meet POC one of these days, as he'll be about 40 miles east of us. Honestly, I can't wait.

Ron Paul is the worst kind of hypocrite who doesn't even see the contradiction ...
===============

Holy shit ... this takes the cake! Look who finds fault with contradiction. My eyes have rolled so far back in my head I can see behind me.

family from should obviously be family farm

Holy shit ... this takes the cake! Look who finds fault with contradiction.

=================

Once again, I am pleased by your surprise!

You mean to tell me Ron Paul is also Large and contains Multitudes?

I have never placed a value on consistency ("the hobgoblin of small minds" -- Emerson).

People like Ron Paul make a religion out of it. He's been saying the same thing about 1913, gold, the Fed, the Constitution, etc. for decades.

That wasn't getting anywhere, so they changed the mass.
==========

A small matter of form, not substance.

Q said: "Holy shit ... "

-----------------

For those new to CFN, Q may be referring to my many posts of several years ago on humanure which is, literally, holy shit.

http://humanurehandbook.com/downloads/H2_all.pdf

The Humanure Handbook is out in the 3rd edition now.

Thanks, Q!

A simple mathematical function, as I illustrated above, shows that overpopulation is the biggest issue facing us. It's all well and good to have social concerns about justice, fair and equal treatment, and the human comedy, but nature doesn't care about those issues, it operates within the world of physics and biochemistry, and when a limit is reached, it will act brutally and without regard for human suffering.

We really are doomed if we don't resolve our population situation. The history of Earth has shown us that the ecological balance is very precise and is based on many factors, without too much room for manouvering. So many factors exist that I believe solving all our energy problems will be to no avail for our survival. We can talk all we want about how to live with less in a peak resource world, but ultimately it will be the size of our population that will be the crucial topic.

A small matter of form, not substance.

--------------

You been to mass recently, Q. Q, they are messing with the Nicene Creed in the Mass. That is substantial change.

In 2011 here are some of the SUBSTANTIAL CHANGES:

The alterations in language are drastic enough that for longtime Catholics “it will be a big change to have to use a sheet of paper or a worship aid to say prayers,” said DeTurris Poust.

Some of the changes include, instead of responding, “And also with you,” to the priest when he says, “The Lord be with you,” Catholics will now respond with, “And with your Spirit.”

During the penitential act, where Catholics once said, “I confess to almighty God and to you my brothers and sisters, that I have sinned through my own fault,” they will now say, “that I have greatly sinned.”

In the Nicene Creed, where once Catholics said that God is the “Maker…of all that is seen and unseen,” they will now say God makes “all things visible and invisible.”

And in that same prayer, where Jesus was once “Begotten, not made, one in being with the Father,” He is now, “begotten, not made, con-substantial with the Father.”

Where Catholics once said, “Lord I am not worthy to receive you,” they will now say, “Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof.”

Check out the draconian measures Obama's science czar would Like to take if he had his druthers:

http://zombietime.com/john_holdren/

Benedict is taking small steps back to the original Mass, the Mass of all Ages, substanially unchanged until the tragic betrayal of Vatican Two when they allowed the Mason, Bugnini, to twist and pervert the Mass.

The Priest didn't have his back to the People - he was facing the Altar - leading them into the promised land. Facing the People he is merely one of them, part of the infantile circle jerk that is so important to you people.

re: A hard rain falling

Your comment reminded me of another threat.

IF we are very lucky, there is enough time to close and deactivate the nuclear plants in the New Madrid seismic zone before major earthquakes lead to several Japan style meltdowns.

Alternatively they might be upgraded (more like rebuilt) to withstand 8+ magnitude earthquakes.

Unfortunately there is not even serious talk about the existence of the threat, let alone anyone taking action to significantly reduce this probability.

The seismic stress building in this zone is obvious. It might be months, will probably be years, but is unlikely to be a decade before that stress is released. Odds are it will not be released gently.

You're starting to make some sense, Mr. Bean!

"We really are doomed if we don't resolve our population situation."

Again I have to say, yes, each human does exact a certain toll on the planet's resources, but in a fair analysis, you exact more like 50 tolls on the planet's resources than someone from a conserver culture (my new term to replace the crass "third world" moniker). Consumer culture (also more fitting than the "first world" moniker)is every bit the problem that population is in the poorer countries.

Perhaps the problem is more like 'we only have so much energy to divide amongst us, and the more people there are the less we get...to spend on ourselves.' Where is my space heater anyway? My piggies are chilly. Who cares if that guy gets his bowl of rice today?@! Piggies! Cold! Capish?

Terrible. Human beings really are that weird in my experience. He may really have no memory of your previous agreement - perhaps it has been deleted by him since breaking his word doesn't fit into his self image as a nice guy. Maybe someone got to him - you'll probably never know. And that's part of the pain of human life.

What an awkward situation. Best to make a clean break of it as you are doing. Good luck and give us the blow by blow as you build the house.

Thanks for the Humanure Handbook update, Soak!

Just another practice that will become very common in our future. My family will never have another water-wasting toilet once we're in the mountains.

Can't human shit be a form of energy? Can't it be dried and burned as fuel?

Yo WSP, Did your power go down before the storm? The storm was only ten days ago. People can prepare all they want, but when Ma Nature comes knockin' all bets are off. I lost half of my apple trees and an equal amount of the sugar maples. I guess I can replant and they will be good again by 2100. I can hardly wait.

If you think that's bad, just wait and see what Momma Nature has in store for us and our population explosion. She bats last. It will be far worse than a little government population control. Thems the breaks, I guess.

I'm really sorry that things on your 300 acres didn't work out for you. And it wasn't because your permaculture plans failed, it was because of the actions of others. I've dealt with many businessmen and have been involved in many real estate transactions, some of them fairly large, and I can tell you money and other tangible assets bring out the worst in people.

I hope I'm not being too intrusive, but my suggestion is to put everything in writing in the future. When you meet with someone, write a memorandum of understanding. After your discussions, send the other parties a letter stating something like, "This is just a note to clarify what we discussed on such and such a date. It is my understanding that: blah blah blah."

At least, in the future you can produce the note and state, "Don't you remember what we talked about last November?" Here's a copy of what I mailed you." BTW, send the letter certified, with a return receipt.

Nothing is too trivial to memorialize in writing if it concerns you and your family's well-being. And if a person's intentions are honest, they won't mind getting the memo.

Remember, Edison conducted 10,000 experiments that didn't work out before he invented the light bulb.

Eh, you know I'll be posting pics as they come! A great chapter is unfolding. Thanks for the chin-up.

Fact of the matter is that Ron Paul's policies would be horrible for the vast majority of Americans, economically and socially. It is like he stepped out of a time capsule from 1910.

You mean to tell me Ron Paul is also Large and contains Multitudes?

I have never placed a value on consistency ("the hobgoblin of small minds" -- Emerson).
================

I had the TV tuned to CNBC today with the sound muted and my attention generally diverted to my laptop monitor. I raised my eyes and saw that Bill Griffith (Sp?) was interviewing Ron Paul. I quickly un-muted and listened to what I believe was roughly the second half of the interview. I found zero fault in anything RP said.

Bill G said "Congressman, I first met you and listened to a speech you delivered 30 years ago when I was new in this business [financial journalism] and it was virtually the same as the speeches you are sill giving ... concerning gold, the Fed, big deficits, etc." and RP said "well, of course, that's because we still have these same issues."

Frankly Asoka, I loved it. How revolting it would have been if RP had said "Yeah, I was on that gold kick for a couple of decades and then I had an epiphany that everything I believed was a pile of crap." One does not drop their convictions because they haven't made a breakthrough with a large enough number of constituents.

The vitriol I see on this blog (and elsewhere) against Paul from Buck and you tells me he's making headway and you guys are getting nervous.

About the Emerson quote, I must once again correct you. It was not "consistency" that Emerson found to be "the hobgobblin of small minds" but rather "a foolish consistency." Ron Paul's consistency is not foolish.

Dude. Seriously? That sucks something awful. I don't want to think about losing half my fruit trees, and they're not even bearing yet.

I accidentally submitted before finishing my thoughts on Ron Paul.

I don't find it at all contradictory that he is a member of government while espousing a vast change and reduction in the size of government. Where better to effect change than from within.

Hi Wage, We had utility crews from all over in my town. They were from Michigan, SC, and NC. Really nice guys. They drove 15-20 hours to get here and went right to work. 16 hour days. Some of them I could barely understand the dialect. We shared some laughs and coffees. It was really nice to have them in the 'hood. I know our guys have been south for hurricanes before. What a friggin' mess! This year alone, tornadoes, hurricanes, and blizzards in October! People still laugh and say there is no climate change! I do not suffer fools lightly.

Thanks, Bill. Of course you bring up some great points. The ideologue in me wanted to have this great social breakthrough, fitting of the times, and understanding with the farm owners, thinking they were down with the same thing, that produced a free-form, handle-it-as-it-comes kind of collective spirit. Didn't work out that way unfortunately, and now I find myself pretty jaded about such matters. Wish I could just trust people to do what they say they're going to do, but that doesn't seem to be the way of it. Probably why we're going to try to make it work on our own for now, whatever that requires.

Maybe we should call our next farm Heinz 57. Fifty-six variations tried before we found the right one...

Yea Tripp, The fruit trees were really hard hit. All the carefully trained lateral branchs broke off. The trees are a mess. I have not been up in the high country where Ozone is but I here the snow was fluffy and the trees faired? better.

Q, my new kick is to vote my principles.

If you agree with Ron Paul, do you plan to be consistent and write his name in on the Republican ballot?

I plan to write in the Green Party's Jill Stein.

The Green Party is the only party I know of that has NONVIOLENCE as part of its platform.

MKG and MLK were both formative influences on me. I marched with MLK in Washington, DC.

Put your vote where your values are is my new message to myself (tip of the hat to Wage).

"Can't human shit be a form of energy? Can't it be dried and burned as fuel?"

Would it not be far more valuable as a topsoil dressing? Fully composted of course.

Honestly, I can't wait.
=============

Sounds like there's been more drama going on at the Tibbett abode than any of us realized.

Tripp, I don't know how you do it ... your life taking these hairpin turns every year or so. It exhausts me just thinking about it. I hope everything works out for you in No. GA.

"Maybe we'll even meet POC one of these days, as he'll be about 40 miles east of us." -trippT-

I'm looking forward to that meeting as soon as we can get it arranged. And that's a rough story about what's been happening to y'all down in Tifton.
Rough. I'm sorry, man.

I'm disappointed for you, of course. And more than a little bit surprised. But we've talked about the resistance of people who have some capital - be it land, money, stocks, whatever - to convert it to other forms. Especially when those other forms are not as familiar, and "seem?" less secure.

I'd put the rest of this in an email - but hey, Tripp, I met you on CFN - so I may as well put it here. All I'll do is avoid volunteering personal data - otherwise we can treat this CFN forum like we would email, in hopes that it will help some other threadriders out there, somewhere.

Oddly enough, we were just in Ellijay this past weekend. That's about 40 miles west of here, so therefore, close to your new proposed digs.
Digs - get it?? -- hahhah!

Anyway, moving on - a couple of things I'd be sure to think through before committing to any mountain real estate in N. Georgia.

One, distances are deceiving. We live 5 miles from town. That's OK, no trouble at all if you've got a car or truck and fuel for it. Without those things - 5 miles would become a long and HARD trip to town and back on foot - because of the elevation changes. And it would take a ICE and vehicle of some sort - or else a horse or mule, to bring meaningful amounts of stuff over and back. We only live about 500 vertical feet above town - but there's got to be well over 500 feet of vertical up and down to get down there - which means at least 1500 feet of total vertical climb to get back home.

Two, there are a lot of lonely wide open spaces in and around the N. Georgia mountains. Because even major roads traverse so much National Forest - you can go for miles and miles and not see any dwellings. And oftentimes, the dwellings you do see are vacation cottages and rarely occupied.

As I recall, you're looking at some family land with some of your own folks around. That's priceless - and can enable you to overcome a bunch of other stuff.

Just watch those distances and lonely spaces.

------------------------------------
BTW, before asoka. or neon suggests that north Georgia's 250,000 +/- acres of lonely National Forest be used to house and feed more immigrants.

- - National Forest up here was purchased from individuals and timber companies BECAUSE it was so subject to erosion that it could not be farmed or lived on.

Later on this week I may tell the thread about a little Baptist Church cemetery I happened to visit this past Friday. Hundreds of graves, many marked only with fieldstones. Many, many others marked only with small pieces of marble, about one inch thick - and perhaps the size of three or four human hands. It was pretty obvious that those little marble headstones were a financial and logistical stretch for those tough mountain Baptists.

No signs of an engraved headstone until well after the Civil War. My point is, it was tough living for anybody - in those North Georgia mountains, prior to the oil age and modern technology.

$0.02 - And I may be overcharging you, Tripp.
Don't let me throw you off your plans.
Just be alert and proceed with caution.

Best regards,
C

Tripp, maybe you should call it Toby57.

You probably already know about this, but there is a book called THE YEAR OF MUD that describes the process of building a cob house.

http://www.blurb.com/bookstore/detail/2108844

"The Year of Mud is one novice builder's story of building his first cob house, a home constructed largely of natural, local materials, many literally straight from the earth and surrounding ecosystem.

A documentary story and inspirational guide for other individuals wanting to create more sustainable, simple, human homes, The Year of Mud demonstrates one example of building that is intuitive, inexpensive, earth-friendly, and creative. And muddy, too, of course."

:( :( :( That just hurts my feelings.

Anyone need apple wood to smoke their Thanksgiving Turkey?

About RON PAUL...

I met Ron in 1988, when he was a Libertarian candidate for puppet...oops!..President. I think he is honest, and if elected plans to be president, not puppet; which means the elite are ensuring his defeat.

His positions were the same 20+ years ago as they are today, except today, there are more agencies he would attempt to defund or abolish. We disagree on some things, but I think the basic message of ending the wars and ending the reign of the Fed is worth supporting.

I won't like registering as a repugnican, even for a day. Have to though.

Yes and the popular term is "Hot Air".

RP espouses economic principles of the 19th century in a 21st century world. The gold standard and ending the Fed would be horrible for the vast majority of Americans. You'd just have to wait until the first down cycle, when all the banks failed due to bank runs, and they didn't have enough gold on hand for redemption. Is that okay, Q, because it is the "free market" at work, to let the country's banks fail and lose the depositor's money? If there is no Fed, who is the lender of last resort? Who insures that the banks do not fail due to lack of liquidity? In other words, you can't float a modern economy on a gold standard, and that's why not one single country on the planet uses it. (That should be a big fucking clue for you and the "gold standard" crowd.) All modern governments run structural deficits, if not always, then at some point, but this is nearly impossible without a central bank unless you'd like everyone to be even more beholden to private banking interests than they already are.

Seriously, Q, this simplistic message of RP's that he has all the answers to our economic problems is snake oil, and you're chugging it down. America's economic woes have far more to do with the bloated military sector (which I guess you kinda used to work for?), an inadequate level of taxation for the services and entitlements we expect, trade deficits, and a host of other complicated factors. A gold standard solves none of these problems, or at least not without introducing its own catastrophes.

Oh, and I love this guy's views on public education, that it is "socialist" and children should be schooled privately or at home. Because all the countries that are smacking us into the ground in terms of test scores mostly have their kids schooled at home or privately. Right? (Hint: I'm being sarcastic.)

Really, man, you're smarter than this, aren't you? RP is just another politician claiming he's got all the answers to everyone's problems. All he really has are unrealistic Libertarian talking points that would never work in practice.

Thanks Tripp :o( Some of the trees are really lopsided now and will also have to be culled.

Q, I hope like hell this is the last time I'll have to do this. Even I'm getting tired, and if we're building a cob house we've got many tons of earth to lift in the next few years. Glad I'm finding some new energy from a new source. Afraid I'm going to need it!

Does anybody read Debka? These Israeli writers really have a talent for spinning an espionage yarn. Not sure how accurate they are with their assertions but it's interesting nonetheless:

http://www.debka.com/

Turkle, I was surprised how naive Q is re: RP.

And pleased that I can still be surprised. :)

Buck, I'm still working on Derrida.

Thanks for the advice, C. Have to admit, some of those thoughts have crossed my mind. We're looking for something very close to a town, probably Ellijay, but a few others would work too. There is that family land near Amicolola, though no family to go with it, but talk about end of the trail. It's the last property up the slope before you enter pristine national forest, but there were bear clawings on the trees last time I visited, and plenty of copperheads. Wouldn't be my first choice.

The saving grace might be the fact that we have almost no bills, and an understanding of how to contour the land and improve the soil quickly and dramatically. No disrespect to the old-timers, though, I'll be a rookie in new territory.

I'll catch up with you offline soon, but probably won't make it to Carter's Grove this time around.

You been to mass recently, Q. Q, they are messing with the Nicene Creed in the Mass. That is substantial change.
===========

No, I haven't. The changes may be substantial (that is, a lot) but not changes of substance (the essence of Catholic Christian belief).

Report back when the Pope declares that that stuff about Christ rising from the dead and his mother being a virgin was all hogwash. THAT is SUBSTANCE.

"We didn't court you. We were offering you a port in the storm."

I hate to say it, but... rural consolidation means that the land thats left that is not under permanent cultivation, is under the thumb of, well, the people who never left the farm. Its their great big bargainin' chip.

Trip, if only you were a true City Boy. You get yourself a lawyer and sue the bastard for false statements on a contract. Shame the old bird into apologizing, or else sue him in small claims court.

"IX: Re: mob-grazing, if you think I'm that stupid why do you read my blog? Oh gosh, no, we never considered any of that other stuff you brought up. We're just a bunch of addle-brained bimbos throwing a hippie party. How much fun!"

WoW! Just, *WoW*!!! And here I thought we agreed on almost 99% of the issues... Jeez, did something bite you on the neck (or crawl up yer @$$)?

I thought I merely posed a serious concern to your assertion, and I expected you to respond to me in debate fashion, as you have with all the others for days on end. But NOPE, you slam me hard!

Let me restate my issue - I find it very hard to believe that forests/trees (even newly planted) sequester only 1/20th of what chattle grazing on open plains do. And not only that, but they (chattle) also produce a methane problem. OMG, I just typed all of this without looking at the keyboard!!! Q - fix my mistakes, plz.

If I'm wrong, prove it with sourced results. Otherwise, quit whingin' liek a lil' girl! It doesn't do you any favors. Quit kickin' allies to the alley...

Tripp, I took an adobe course and the instructor said building a house involved 40,000 decisions. I thought he was kidding, but then the more I learned the more I realized how much I didn't know and it seemed the decision points were flying at me a mile a minute, from the foundation (rubble trench? concrete footings?) to the roof (sill plate, pitch, materials, etc.) Just writing that it seems 40,000 is an exaggeration, but it isn't. Every adobe block place requires a decision.

Of course, cob will be different. I did check out Ianto's hand sculpted house book from the public library: great resource. Don't buy ($28.95 for 38 pages!!!) The Year of Mud, borrow it.

Soak, I just discovered The Year of Mud the other day in my internet wanderings. Guy has a cool website, and looks like a great project. You say you're helping with a cob build right now?

"You get yourself a lawyer and sue the bastard for false statements on a contract. Shame the old bird into apologizing, or else sue him in small claims court."

LOL. If we can get outta here without being lynched by all of our new friends who see us as the great organic diversity at the local market, and the family supposedly taking on a bunch of next season's market duties, we'll be doing well.

Could we just get rid of the gnats? I think we could handle the heat if we could just get rid of the god-dang gnats. No, I'm afraid the mountains are calling...

Q., you better get with the program.

I can just imagine you attending Mass and asking your neighbor: "When did they change Almighty God to All Merciful and Compassionate Allah?"

Of course, from my perspective that would not be a substantive change. Same invisible sky God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob that is shared by all three monotheistic middle eastern religions.

"Report back when the Pope declares that that stuff about Christ rising from the dead and his mother being a virgin was all hogwash. THAT is SUBSTANCE."

My friggin' hero! Now I know you're not my dad. He would have been up-in-arms about the 3-day resurrection!!!

"I have never acted inappropriately with anyone, period"

Mrs. Beasley, the voters of this great center-left country, voted in agreement with Green Party positions on major issues today.

See your future:

anti-union effort was defeated.

"personhood" amendment was defeated.

The Green Party campaigned against these "initiatives" and the people responded.

In fact, people like Kasich and Snyder and Christy and Walker have been great catalysts to create progressive movements that benefit the Green Party.

Ix, my point was just that all of your concerns have of course long-since been accounted for in this fairly mature "technology." I.E. cows only fart out a bunch of methane when they are eating unnatural grain diets. Grass-fed cows hardly ever have gas. Mob-grazing takes such skill to do right, but when it is done right, whew boy!, it builds soil fast. I've heard of 2% organic matter rise in one season. (6% is a lot), and each percentage of gain creates such a positive feedback loop that applying these methods on a large scale could nullify scary CO2 levels within a few years. You just won't get that kind of turnaround with trees. Not that I'm against trees, of course. This is top shelf stuff, brother. Plenty of books on the subject.

Check it out some time. But man! That series of questions seemed insulting.

Re population and doom.

Mother Earth seems to periodically rearrange her living space. This is rather difficult for those humans living at the time. Some say that previous civilizations were aware of the periodic cataclysms and built massive stone structures to survive them, but they vanished anyway. Some of these constructions are still beyond our current ability both in the size of the stones and the precision of their placement.

The overgrown human population is but one of many signs that Mother's next housecleaning and rearrangement is allready underway. Population problem will be solved when she is through.

What is it now, five or six women who have identified Cain as a sexual predator?

A pay out of a year's salary, after an investigation, says something did happen.

A group of Cain's victims are going to get together and hold a joint press conference. Don't think Cain can make this go away. Weiner resigned due to pressure from colleagues. That is starting to happen with Cain now.

"Population problem will be solved when she is through."

Yep. So will the consumption problem.

Night everyone.

Does any of you fine fellows has a link to a good articles on the derivatives bubbles? I is looking for something which that.

P.S. Those grammatical stylings were just for you, Q!

"x, my point was just that all of your concerns have of course long-since been accounted for in this fairly mature "technology.""

Link? I'm very skeptical still, as MOB grazing is exactly what they've been doing to rainforest clearcuts over the past 40+ years. And, after 4-7 years, the soil is completely leeched and concreted (and all the waste run-off silts into the rivers)...

If you're talking about 1 massive MOB grazer, weighing in at 600+lbs, roaming 2-3+ acres - then maybe I believe you. See what I'm getting at? *DETAILS*

My bad - rainforest clearcuts/slash&burn...

"What is it now(?)"

Hehe! I wish I could say what that bullshit artist/sociopath Hermy stated. But, I am humble, and admit that I have offended a LOT of folks. Many of them, due to my "end-times" diatribe...

4 poasts in a row! (ban?) - let's lighten this SH!T up a bit:

Hermy, "Excuse me... EXCUSE ME!!!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxQQ04kN6M4

Your professors were vermin. Face it, you wasted your parent's money and/or our's.

I'm proud of you for not sticking up for another Black. You are putting ideology before brotherhood; standing idle as your Brother is subjected to a high tech lynching. Welcome to the consciousness of the White Man.

RP espouses economic principles of the 19th century in a 21st century world.
===========

Turk, everyday I receive emails from 4 financial/stock market oriented publications which are all of the same ilk (such as pro-gold & silver and anti-Fed and Big Govt). I would post links but I'm leery of the Forbidden 403 Error banning algorithm. The names of these pubs are:

Whiskey & Gunpowder
Agora Financial
5 Min Forecast
The Daily Reckoning

A couple of them used to publish the Kunstler Blog and that's how I originally stumbled on CFN back in mid-2009.

There is no way I could do an adequate job of articulating my beliefs relative to precious metals as currency or why our Govt in concert with the Fed will at some point destroy the dollar as all central banks eventually destroy their respective currencies. (If you heard RP today, he mentioned that the dollar has lost more than 98% of its value since the formation of the Fed in 1913 (this is not new News). What more proof could you want of a trend in motion?) But if you can locate these pubs via Google they have some excellent writers on these subjects.

The whole Ron Paul discussion is almost a side issue. I detest politics and all politicians to one degree or another. But I "detest" RP the least because when I hear him speak he is truly "preaching to the choir." It doesn't matter though since there isn't a snowball's chance that he could be elected president. He sounds too nerdy and is essentially a one-trick-pony in his area of [financial] expertise. His usefulness is in bringing these issues to the forefront. With some luck he may someday force an audit of the Fed and the contents of Fort Knox.

Please find and read these pubs I've listed. Today's and yesterday's have some excellent essays on the very issues you and I are debating. You and I are at such extreme poles that we need to insert an intermediary in order to converse at all. The same, apparently goes for my relation with Bustin and Buck. Asoka seems to be the only one who can keep a smile on his face as we agree to disagree.

Earlier I called Cain a nigger and wanted to be called on it. No takers, when I really wanted to fustigate someone, anyone. Just as well. A racial incident over the weekend (NOT my fault) still has me seething. I agree with most of the posters here generally speaking, and I'm glad I didn't have the opportunity to go into an emotionally charged, vicious tirade.

The real Cain 9-9-9 plan:
Nine women, nine inches, nine minutes!

I'm still registered republitard, since '92. Voted demotard in '92/96, and then voted for *NEITHER* of them in 2000/'04/'08 (green party/Nader write-in).

I'm totally gunna vote Hermy in teh primaries, if he lasts more than a week or two - hah! Hermy versus Obama - who'd win?!...

OWSers better get their sh!t together, and come up with a decent write-in vote (I'll back them/it)...

"The whole Ron Paul discussion is almost a side issue."

He was *spot on*, when he said a dime could buy a gallon of gas-o-hol... (silver price down now, but still $2.50 per silver dime).

His racist/sexist views are abhorrent, however (SP?)...

Right on about Joe Frazier, Q. Joltin' Joe is in a song, but that's Dimaggio I believe.

Joltin' Joe Frazier, a fighter's fighter, with a left hook that more than shook!

Its okay. Some republiturds on this board don't understand that we by and large don't want their racial discrimination in our reloveution.

His racist/sexist views are abhorrent, however
=====================

I keep hearing about his "racist/sexist views" but I've never noticed it. I must have defective antennae. Please post a YouTube or anything else that you consider a prime example. It'll have to be quite obvious as I am apparently quite dense.

in our reloveution
=========

Wow, I don't think I've ever seen that word mangled as badly.

Thank you BJ. Most importantly, I won't judge a man by his color, but I will speak to the "larger" racial realities as I see them.

On Q's comment: Could be a new word, maybe take the u out. Relovetion, what could it mean?

The Punk thinks that the most basic Law of Reality, that of contradiction - that something can't be both true and false in the same way at the same time doesn't apply to him. The Laws of Nature just dance in attendance on him. Things become true or false as he changes his mind either for or against.

And then he accuses Ron Paul, the most stable man in American Politics, of inconsistency. Pot. Kettle. Negro.

White Men are dominating heavy weight boxing now, particularly the Klitscho Brothers, Vladimir and Vitaly, from the Ukraine. This really bothers many White Liberals who identify more with Blacks than their own people. Sad and Strange Situation.

You just can't see the love in it.


LB: Russia is doing quite well at screwing itself after we introduced them to the kind of "boiler room" capitalism that our country has devolved into since the 1990s. Applications to leave Mother Russia are as bad, or worse, now than they were during the height of the Soviet oligarchy.

Their chief mafiosi are doing quite well with oil at $97/bbl. As long as oil stays roughly about $70/bbl, the local oligarchs will be partying. I wonder if their CEOs/Kleptocrats learned all about OUTSOURCING?? Perhaps they ship jobs to Romania where it's a lot cheaper to live.

E.

Congratulations, you found another spelling mistake. *golf clap*


Increasingly, Ron Paul is coming across as yet another doctrinaire, adolescent doofus. Warren put forth a rational argument and his only "response" was that Socialism is bad. End of debate.

Aren't there ANY articulate people left in the US Congress or are they all turning into Asperger's/ADHD cases like their kids??

E.

"This really bothers many White Liberals who identify more with Blacks than their own people."

Do you just make up this horse shit as you go along or what?

"You and I are at such extreme poles that we need to insert an intermediary in order to converse at all."

Nah, I just enjoy poking and razzing ya. It is all in good fun, and I wouldn't have it any other way. ;)

Thanks for the financial pointers. I will check them out. I'm currently doing some reading on the hideous financial Franken-monster that is the world derivatives market. Scary stuff.


Addendum to my last post re Ron Paul. Warren appears to know her history where corporations were a PUBLIC TRUST meaning they were OUR bitch, not the reverse. Warren is merely asking companies to honor the implicit social contract that has existed since corporations started in America i.e., you must be a net POSITIVE in your communities or you are a civic blight.

Paul thinks it is "Socialist" to ask basic civic consciousness of multi-national financial oligarchies. Ain't he a swell guy?

E.

I can see it bothering the liberals. If those guys could learn to move more, bob and weave, be butterflies not boards, they'd dominate the decade and thensome.

Relovetion:

A condition or state of sublime upheaval, usually affecting large groups of the religiously disaffected, leading to the pursuit of the chimera of "pure love".

Most white liberals don't give two shits about boxing.

Word!!!

E.

"Most white liberals don't give two shits about boxing".

Perhaps I should have said, "I can see it bothering the liberals at some point".

For the most part, I think that you may be right, the Klitsckos are probably an oh-hum aberration for now, not given much thought. Just there in the distant background, nothing to worry about-yet. But what happens if many more whites were to enter and dominate the ranks as blacks do now? What number would violate the liberal sense of "social justice"?

Of course you hear nothing about the extreme racial inequality in the NBA and the NFL.

But Michelle Obama says we need more blacks in the NHL!

Major white entry into boxing doesn't appear imminent, so things are fine now with mostly blacks and hispanics trying to punch their way out of poverty. Apparently, there aren't many poor whites. But we know that's not true.

So, maybe MOST white liberals don't give two shits about boxing, and for good reason, the way things stand now. No need for anything affirmative.


Bring in the Blood-Suckin' lawyers.

Me too!

Gimmee yo wallet!!! Fort Lauderdale, FL with a pistol behind my ear at a traffic light 1985. No Thanks!

Bloomberg for President?

Great. All our problems are solved by electing the American Berlusconi.

Nah.

E.,

I know what you're saying about Russia, but just imagine if they had eschewed Communism after WWII and we used the Marshall Plan on them instead of putting them in the Milton Friedman Laboratory-what a difference that would make.
Yes, Yeltsin was the useful idiot (drunken one at that) who helped in the Neoliberal austerity program.
Did this fit in with Russia's culture to some degree retaining their plutocracy? Sure Did!
_____________________
On Ron Paul: I heard RP on MSNBC a month before the Rep debates started. He actually said that there should be regulations---especially he pointed out on the private contractors getting government money.That's probably why he's on the sidelines now. What happened to his following?
He is an Ayn Rand acolyte and doesn't believe in government (the people). That concept has escaped the right in this country.

All our competitors followed our older model which is government investment in the country. Speaking of raising all ships....

Interesting note: I visited the ITER website last night and saw that in San Diego and Tallahasee things are beginning to happen with both government and private sector research. Let's just hope the giant fossil fuel bullies don't stop us from moving ahead.

"If I get your drift you think I'm stuck in some old paradigm and need to think outside the box. Maybe so. Give me a hint. Where is the fallacy in my logic?" -Q.

Q.,
I don't find one/any.
No fault to be found with your logic a'tall.
It's all this stuff about paid holidays, sick days, pension bennies (etc.). I'm guessing that stuff is not going to be around much longer, and will thus cease to be part of your equations and make them moot.

So it's a "projection guess" on my part, and I'm feeling new bargains will have to be arrived at and factored in (probably in a hurried and slightly chaotic fashion, more's the pity).

Again, nothing wrong with your figures, they just seem to me to represent a paradigm that's already dead but doesn't know it yet. (At least in the private sector; that social contract has been throttled. ...And isn't that where "the free market" is said to operate?)

Indian Summer

Well we sure have had a roller coaster of weather changes these last couple of weeks. Yesterday in mid afternoon I finished a project and ran up to Central Park, where a person could get lost in the woods. (briefly)

After all the damage done to the trees on Oct 29, I decided to check up on my old favorite. The Maple I climbed when I lived uptown. I was worried, I saw signs saying that there was a program to cut down the damaged trees and saw yellow tape (like a crime scene type) around a number of trees as I wended my way to the tree in question. There was one that was on the ground that had the tape around it's parameters as if it were a body.
I passed workers buzz sawing a tree with many branches to be cleaned up on the ground.

Finally I reached my tree and she stood grand and healthy, her ample wide branches inviting me once more to climb.

I found a comfortable branch on which to lie down and look up through the many branches to the perfect blue sky.

As always I was refreshed and glad to visit and old friend.

Paul thinks it is "Socialist" to ask basic civic consciousness of multi-national financial oligarchies. Ain't he a swell guy?
==

If you eliminate the FED and its banks, the imperialist thieving by way of the US military/CIA/IMF, the gov mafia welfare, the corrupt legislation and the corrupt institutions including the courts, you will eliminate the multi-national oligarchies. It's amazing that a guy who professes to be a software programmer can't think through this simple chain of action.

No citizen should be paying any taxes to any government. If governments want to raise funds they should be levying duties on imports and foreigners.

Wow! Lotsa posts. I'm never going to catch up.

Good short one that explains how Goldman "dun'nit" in the land of olives and donkeys:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article29655.htm

I heard about Connecticut from you and Ripped, when the storm started.

Then you showed up and then Ripped, three days later, but you guys didn't say anything about people dying in their houses, or no one coming to help. I know that you said that your mom's place lost some trees, but I didn't realize it was so widespread.

Like I said, when I turn my computer on, I get MSN news, and Connecticut isn't on it.

Michael Jackson is, though.

Did you hear about the inland hurricane, or "derecho" (as they now call it) in Southern Illinois, other than from me?

Because most of my family in other parts of the country didn't.

And it was so traumatic to us that I heard a woman in the elevator talking about it yesterday!

Not only did they invite Monsanto over for talks, they put Monsanto folks in high positions in the Dept. of Agriculture, the trade department and the Supreme Court.

http://foodfreedom.wordpress.com/2010/05/15/mark-of-the-beast-obama%E2%80%99s-latest-monsanto-pick-elena-kagan/

How's that organic garden on the White House lawn working out?

Holy shit! There are an awful lot of posts here this week. Don't you fuckers have football games to watch?

"It's all well and good to have social concerns about justice, fair and equal treatment, and the human comedy, but nature doesn't care about those issues, it operates within the world of physics and biochemistry, and when a limit is reached, it will act brutally and without regard for human suffering." -BTB

Beans,
Noooooooo! You arent' gettin' it; that's the point where my invisible sky-ghost steps in and saves me and my sacred progeny, 'cause WE BELIEVE! Everyone else may be fucked, but we shall inherit... um... all the good stuff; yeah, that's it. Ain't it kewl how that works? Physics, statistics, and all that science shit is for unimaginative losers (who will not be salvationized).

thanks for the link, Ozone of course i started to compose a reply about how much it pissed me off some more, but i continued through to chris hedge s link...and well, instead i have a tiny bit of hope for humanity: that is some of the most powerful writing in my experience...and it a vast experience...the last line, IMHO, may have been borrowed- but no longer; for me, and anyone who reads his essay forthwith, the mantle has been passed i am no sissy, and have withstood some serious shit in my time with a shrug and 'oh well, just more of the same', but i read the account with a case of goose bumps...and teared up at the conclusion if i knew how to post a link elsewhere, i would; i WILL be telling everone i know who cares to go to info.com to check it out for themselves, and for the sake of what little humanity remains in our species...again, thankyou more than i have time or room to articulate here, other than to say you have converted anger to hope, in a man who has been hate-free for only a little over a year i urge all of CF'dN to take a minute or two (sic) to read the two suggested artcles before your day, i think they ll make a positive difference- even you, vlad, if you ll drop your preconcieved notions of color for the shades of humanity we ALL wear...WRITE IN CHRIS HEDGES FOR SUPREME LEADER OF OUR CLUSTERFUCKED NATION

I'm with you now, sister.

Thanks again for getting me back on track.

I don't know how you got my comments on the irresponsibility of destroying the environment and the future, for 20 years of fossil fuels, to mean that I don't think 30 years ahead. ??? I specifically said that future generations would not appreciate us destroying their water supplies, their aquifers and their mountains to get the last bits of fossil fuels for our own use.

One of the Green Party main platforms is Future Focus, meaning that what we do today has to not harm people of the future. So you're really off base.

Actually, widespreadpanic got me really depressed, with his letter of 1817, talking about people moving out of New England, after having depleted the trees and whales.

How many people are we talking about? It couldn't have been even a million, and they managed to destroy their livelihoods way back in 1817? Without multinationals or fossil fuels?

We're screwed!

We need to lower our population, as I've said for years. The best way is to pay people for voluntary sterilization. We also need to quit importing labor.

If you have a mosquito problem, do you take a fly swatter and go out to get each one?

No, you dump out standing water where they breed.

If you are so damn worried about immigrants, then throw the employers in prison. Then they won't be sending buses down to Mexico to pick up cheap labor.

And support politicians who want to lower the costs of education in the US, to allow our talented kids to train for professions that the employers say they need to import Indians for.

Oh. There are plenty of educated Americans who are willing to do those jobs, but employers prefer the H1B1 labor? Then go after the employers!

I don't think that the police or the military will lose control, however. Take a look at the police arrayed against the occupiers.

Do they look like Barney Miller? Or do they look like soldiers? Are they armed with a billy stick, or tanks and an array of weapons?

Geez, Turkle, do I have to explain the difference between sex and reproduction to you?

Yes, we're wired to have sex. We even like sex all the time, even when not fertile. That's different from other animals.

And liking sex is WAY different than wanting 15 children. Most people don't want more than two, if any.

Damn right most married people are fixed by the time they're 30. I point that out all the time, in support of my voluntary sterilization program.

I ask women routinely if they could be pregnant. Almost every one of them says no, they've had their tubes tied, or their husband has had a vasectomy.

My dad, my husband, my brother-in-law, and my son-in-law have ALL had vasectomies.

Only the supremely irresponsible don't get fixed, and I am supremely sure that they would if offered money to do so.

Jesus Vlad, you need to tone down the paranoia. I would never advocate for the stifling of free speech and besides, I'm not the government, so your charge is baseless. Go ahead and spew your hate all you want. No one will silence you. BTW, if, as you state, hate never sleeps, you must be one tired son-of-bitch.

I'm sorry to hear that it didn't work out, Tripp.

But, as prog points out, the trees you planted there will be around for the next generation, even if they're not your biological spawn.

Hey, Ripped. Bummer about your apple trees. But don't be too quick to rip them out!

Two years ago, during our hurricane, I had a bunch of downed trees, including 3 apple trees.

My son and I went out and dumped mud on the exposed roots right after the storm.

My plan was to haul them upright with my truck as soon as possible.

Well, it's 2 1/2 years later and I never did that, but the trees are still alive and sending up upright branches.

We bought a chainsaw after the storm, but I think it's a man's job, and my husband isn't clear on how to use it, but someday my plan is to cut away the sideways part of the trees, and let the upright branches grow.

Would that work for you?

And I have another tree, some kind of flowering tree, that totally fell over, and I just left it, with the roots all exposed (or so I thought).

It also is alive, sending up shoots and flowering as usual in the spring.

Actually, Chris Hedges is very pro-Green Party, and some are talking about him running as a candidate.

Jill Stein is out there and running, and I really like her, but if Chris decides to run, I may vote for him.

What a dilemma! The kind you're never faced with in the corporate parties! Greater of two goods, instead of lesser of two evils!

So, Ozone, you got me started at informationclearinghouse, and I really liked this article-

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article29663.htm

The ritual genuflection that so many so-called progressives make around veterans is answered very well in this article.

No , I don't blame a guy living in a box, but i do blame people for having six kids on welfare for multiple generations to be a big part of the problem. And it is so stupid to import people from around the world to and extend government services to them.
But this too is decisions made by the powers that be. I guess the the elite want it to be this way for some damn convoluted reason.

TLE may have many of us spinning yarn, Quite literally.

It looks like I'm not kicked off this site anymore.

A few CFN lessons learned from our statewide 13 days without electric power.

One is that it doesn't take very long after the event -- in this case only a day or two -- for things to go bad and in fact take on an apocalyptic hue. Massive gas lines formed up almost immediately -- there were fights -- and people began dying pretty quick, mostly from aphyxiation in desperate attempts to keep warm. Next town over some dude carved up his girlfriend, and down the street the door was kicked in at our little neighborhood store.

A second lesson is that you are pretty much on you own. We didn't see any police for a week. In ordinary time they are everywhere trying to bust your balls for driving your car after having a glass of wine with dinner. Don't expect any help from the authorities.

The Long Emergency, if it comes, is going to be a hard road and many people will not survive.

--WSP7

Have to agree with you Turkle. Ron Paul's agenda would be Atlas Shrugged come to life, fiction turned to fact. I am on par with some of RP's ideas, particularly concerning our military over reach, but as a whole, I think his policies would be disasterous.

If you heard RP today, he mentioned that the dollar has lost more than 98% of its value since the formation of the Fed in 1913.
--------------------------------------------
Turkle, et al
Ron Paul hasn't changed his beliefs in 20+ years because his religion is his politics. Is there any argument what-so-ever for ignoring two decades of experience? I can't think of anything I feel the same about as I did that long ago.

As for Tik's concern for the stable value of the currency, I see no reason why that would matter unless you have a lot of money stashed in a mattress in 1913 and were still alive today.

What matters is the buying power of your salary, which, with the exception of the recent downturn has made remarkable strides since 1913. The fact is, monetary policy is extremely complicated and its doubtful anyone really understands it.

Of course, once you are retired, you can make an argument for taking it on the chin through inflation, but even that is mitigated by increases in investment vehicles.

Only good thing about a guy like Ron Paul? We'd spend a lot less for advisers if he were president.....he already knows the answer to every question.

Your professors were vermin.
---------------------------------
Got that Turkle?

At times you have to wonder if Vlad is serious or if he is doing an imitation of a character from a WWII era movie, with the bad guy being the "JJermen" speaking about the "VVermin" while holding his cigarette backwards and wearing a monocle.

" The GOP will get the Tea Party in line by pandering to their irrational desire to end abortion and crowd the planet with yet billions more hungry, poor people."

Abortion and birth control products have brought the earth to seven billion in number. Workin' pretty well, I'd say.


Metuselah said:
If you eliminate the FED and its banks, the imperialist thieving by way of the US military/CIA/IMF, the gov mafia welfare, the corrupt legislation and the corrupt institutions including the courts, you will eliminate the multi-national oligarchies. It's amazing that a guy who professes to be a software programmer can't think through this simple chain of action.

No citizen should be paying any taxes to any government. If governments want to raise funds they should be levying duties on imports and foreigners.
******************************************************************

I agree with most of your points except the last but you ruin it because you cannot make a single reply without a character assassination i.e., you are amazed "that a guy who professes to be a software programmer can't think through this simple chain of action".

That's why you've long been consider by most of the site as a raging, acrid nutter. What on earth do you know about what I know about the CIA, for example? At SRI International I did a lot of work for those assholes.

Why don't you try replies with pure debate over issues and see if you can write ONE post where you don't make suppositions about people which you cannot possibly know to be true or false. If you continue to fail to do this, you'll be largely ignored. I've certainly been ignoring you for many months now and this response to you is to announce that I only plan to stay the course.

I'll reply to your POINTS at the first signs of civility. Otherwise, it's back to shunning you.

E.

" The GOP will get the Tea Party in line by pandering to their irrational desire to end abortion and crowd the planet with yet billions more hungry, poor people."

Abortion and birth control products have brought the earth to seven billion in number. Workin' pretty well, I'd say.

The north wind is really blowing here.

But I turned on the computer and although MSNs top story was that someone I never heard of is retiring, they also had a story on Alaska, which is facing 100mph winds.

No mention of global warming, though, just another story about another hundred year storm hitting another part of the earth. Which is happening several times a year now. Damn. I wish I didn't happen to be here, in the centennial.

I wonder if we'll be informed of the aftermath?

omigod. Seriously?

There is someone who believes that babies are born because of birth control and abortion?

Tripp, you're a biologist. Do you want to take this one? Or just let ignorance wallow in bliss?

Bullshit. As a white, liberal, former amateur boxer with a huge love of the sport, I think it's great that the Klitschko brothers are so dominant in the heavyweight division. And it's not just the heavyweights; take a look at Ring Magazine's top 10 ratings for each weight class and you'll see a lot of white faces, something you wouldn't have seen 20 years ago. I love it because it puts to rest the old cliche that white men can't fight. The former Soviet bloc is to boxing what Cuba and the DR are to baseball. White men can indeed fight. I don't, however, expect to see any white men (or women) winning the 100 meter dash in the next Olympics.

Wage,
I heard about it, but IN PASSING on weatherunderground.com!
Isn't that indicative of the failure/purposeful neglect we're finding in our "reporting"?

How do you explain to someone who cannot understand that corporations are sociopaths, that you don't nicely ask sociopaths to play fair -- you taser them down and remove them from society. How would you describe that someone cannot understand this simple reality? I hope that hasn't crossed the line of civility.

..you describe that someone ^that cannot understand..

"I believe immigrants should have the right to receive medical care,education,housing and access to all available public benefits and services."

Cool. Then you should be willing to open you home to all those who wish to be provided these same services. Mr. Stinky Pants wants a sandwich? Soups on at Asoka's house. Ms. Junkie needs junk? Asoka's got it. Cardboard Bob's house a little soggy? Asoka has a spare bedroom.

After our hurricane, the city governments made the decision to burn all the downed trees.

Every normal person thought that this was an outrage. Oaks, hickories, walnuts, black walnuts, pine, and so many other beautiful, 100 year old trees - burned? Sending thousands of years of stored carbon into the atmosphere? Did these managers not go to second grade, and learn about all the ways we could use trees?

But then I read a New Yorker article about a storm that you guys had, which downed hundreds of trees. (That's the only way I knew about that storm, by the way).

And your city hall decided to burn the trees also. Their excuse was that there may have been some trees that were diseased and they didn't want to spread it! WTF?! Lumber is dried, paper is milled, particleboard is chemically put together. What were they talking about?

When they widened my road, they bulldozed the trees, they didn't use them. When they blow up mountaintops, they don't use the trees.

But they clearcut national forests, and are busily destroying rainforests in other countries!
Are those trees without disease?

Maybe prog can tell us if there is some kind of Georgia-Pacific conspiracy to make sure that only corporate trees get used.

But I'm glad that your tree survived the latest storm.

Not to belabor the point too much Tusconspur, but there are currently 9 whites in the top 10 Ring Magazine rankings at heavyweight, 4 each in the cruiserweight and light heavyweight divisions, 7 each in the super middleweight and middleweight divisions, and three each in the jr. middleweight and welterweight divisions. Below that there are some but most of the lighterweight division are dominated by Mexicans and Asians. As stated before, this is largely due to the dissolution of the Soviet Union and the fall of the Eastern bloc. Life in those countries is very rough and produces so mean motherfuckers.

"We should move to nationalize all assets and federalize all corporate charters."

Your home, your bank account, your car/bike, your clothes, your refrigerator, etc. etc. etc. are assets. You really want them nationalized? Because that is where your "logic" follows.

Yes. Which affects more lives, massive storms or a celebrity getting married?

Which gets more "news" coverage?

"There is someone who believes that babies are born because of birth control and abortion?"

No, moron, they are born in spite of them and the current number is 7 billion. You should be able to make the case that their availability (for what, 40 years?) would have leveled or decreased the global population but you cannot. So now what is proposed? Sterilization. Holy shit, does the madness never end?

100% correct!

"Tripp, you're a biologist. Do you want to take this one? Or just let ignorance wallow in bliss?"

I'm going to go with door number 2. You cain't fix stupid.

Confusionism,

It could also be a sign of the economic times. Boxing has always been a vehicle to raise one (out of a thousands) up the economic ladder when a particular ethnic group occupied the lower rungs. The Jews with Benny Leonard,Barney Ross, Max Baer - even the Klitchko brothers are half Jewish; the Irish with Gene Tunney, Jack Dempsey, Billy Conn; the Italians with Marciano, Lamotta, Graziano.

Of course, it goes without saying the great latin and black fighters were more often than not products of the lower economic rung.

Wage, if Senator Inhofe says there is no global warming/climate change (he conflates the two), then it must be true.

Yeah, I agree. I'm thinking it's the badly mothered notmommy, in his latest reincarnation.

Someone should have used birth control!

"You cain't fix stupid."

Too true. The world has had accessibility to abortions (for ever) and birth control (the last 50 years, + or - five or ten years) and how has that worked out? Well by the reckoning of some here, not very well. So what do we try now? Sterilizations (of course who gets this little procedure will be determined by the resident geniuses) and putting grandma and grandpa on an ice flow the minute they show signs of the sniffles.

The arrogance and stupidity on display here is mind numbing and frankly as fascistic as any I have ever heard.

Someone should have used birth control!"

Surely. Like sterilization.

I agree, which is why the majority of these good, white boxers are from economically depressed areas of the world. With the exception of Kelly Pavlik and Lucian Bute (Canadian) and maybe a few others, there aren't many from the US and Canada.

All the men in your family get fixed - just like cats! Are they henpecked and pussy whipped or what?

And the Lord looked down upon his work and said, "it is good".

Yes the Main Steam Media made a huge deal out of the hapless Quarry Brothers - they were the Jersey Reds to Ali's Harlem Globe Trotters. But now when Whites dominate, they are as mum as clams. They want to portray Whites as weak. All part of the Jewish Agenda.

Yes Virginia, Jews dominate the Media. Jewish comdedians can make jokes about this all they want, it doesn't change it. Contemporary Whites are so weak in spirit that this kind of thing actually influences them.

I assume you're talking about my last comment last night, about how the consumption problem will be fixed right along side the population problem.

Thanks for the springboard, 'cause I wanted to say something else regarding that topic. (Not to you specifically, just to the group.)

Population and consumption are two prongs of the same overshoot problem. If I had to label one as worse than the other I'd probably go with consumption. Know why? Because everybody in the industrial world is sitting at a computer these days, blaming the problems we face on someone else. Sitting there at their fancy desk, on their fancy computer, in a climate controlled room, a Hot Pocket in the micro, a cold beer in hand; fridge, freezer, clothes washer, dishwasher, clothes dryer, hair dryer, trash compactor, garbage disposal, battery charger, security lights, cell phones, CDs humming away; and a car or two outside in the driveway. Oh, but I recycle my glass and plastic!

The overshoot problem of course has nothing in the world to do with them. It's all the fault of the brown people, or the white folks, or the liberals, or the neo-cons, or the baptists, or the catholics, or the muslims, or the goddam 14 remaining animists, and almost universally it's the fault of anyone with more children than they have. (Regardless of how many houses, vehicles, and toys they personally own.)

What paints the clearest picture in this regard to me is the fact that personal consumption patterns are the only thing they can really do something about, yet the only thing they refuse to address. That's the American way. If there's a larger problem somewhere else, even just a perceived larger problem (or an invented one!), let's blame them first, and then my bad habits will seem more palatable. And I won't feel as guilty about not changing them. Keep the machines running, boys! They say it's not our fault.

If we want to blame the sinking ship of state on someone let's blame it on the people who, because of their exalted place in the world of information, understand what is happening, why it's happening, and still refuse to do anything about it.

Just my .02

I'm getting to you. I will triumph again - just as I have against you again and again.


I think that I shall never see....Thanks, Wage

She's a beaut and I just love her. She's been there all along through my 30+ years in this city and well before. Too bad most people don't appreciate the loveliness of a tree.

How wasteful we are when all we think about is how to get something out of the way fast. That's why there is no thought about how to handle the downed trees.

When you think that the world belongs to you, that's how you behave. No matter how much the scientists warn that we need the rain forests, not only for climate, but medicines as well, they continue to chop 'em down--that's civilization, you know.

But we will pay a price for all of our abuses to the natural environment. Someday we'll be sorry we don't have enough to keep us going...

"If I had to label one as worse than the other I'd probably go with consumption."

OK. You've just been ordained as the "Consumption Overlord". How much and what are we now to consume? You're in charge. Mandate away, oh wise one.

Oh and tripp, one last thing, remember to be "fair" in your consumptive doling. I mean being "fair" is of utmost importance.

" and putting grandma and grandpa on an ice flow the minute they show signs of the sniffles."

Um, it's ice floe, hello!

Never mind. I'm not good at the Q. Not British enough perhaps.

Why does it always have to be about abortion and birth control? There is a very simple explanation for everything, but it depends on the (apparently very vexing) understanding that we are a population of simple animals, and as such controlled by energy and resource flows (not floes this time). The more energy we have access to the more humans we make. Abstinence education for everyone wouldn't change that one iota. Never has, never will. Now that we're heading into energy descent, expect the population to peak, following an unknowable lag time, and start heading the other way. Again, energy will be controlling this tidal fluctuation. Not the devil, not Allah or God, and not Planned Parenthood.

The only point I'm making is to use less, always less than last time, the trend is all that matters. I don't deal in absolutes like you do. Not that wise.

And stop making excuses for not doing it.

"No citizen should be paying any taxes to any government."

A man after my own heart.

"When they came to Capernaum, the collectors of the two-drachma tax went up to Peter and said, "Does your teacher not pay the tax?" "Yes, he does," Peter replied. Then he went into the house. But before he had a chance to speak, Jesus asked him, "What do you think, Peter? Do kings tax their own people or the people they have conquered?" "They tax the people they have conquered," Peter replied. "Well, then," Jesus said, "the citizens are free! However, we don't want to offend them, so go down to the lake and throw in a line. Open the mouth of the first fish you catch, and you will find a large silver coin. Take it and pay the tax for both of us."

Paying taxes you don't owe demonstrates that you are conquered, ignorant or trying to avoid giving offense to the conquered or ignorant.

The problem is that Americans don't live in a traditional, self sufficient way anymore. So to get rid of Big Goverment would have to mean a total change in way of life for most people. Conservatives ignore all of that and just focus on the economic aspect, their eyes glazed and rolling dollar signs like a slot machine. Profit is their God and like all idolaters, they neither know nor care about consequences.

"There is a very simple explanation for everything, but it depends on the (apparently very vexing) understanding that we are a population of simple animals.."

Really? Are you speaking of really, really simple animals? Because on the "simple level" if you put 50 guppies in a 50 gallon tank with 5 grams of feed and 5000 in a 50 gallon tank with 5 grams of feed in a short passage of time you'll have the same number in both tanks. And thats without abortions, sterilizations or Barry White tapes.

So, apparently we aren't quite THAT simple. Now if you care to make the case that many who post here are simple(tons), I'm buyin'.

"The only point I'm making is to use less, always less than last time..."

So if you eat less, always less than the last time, eventually you die of starvation.

"I don't deal in absolutes like you do."

And thats why using your metrics, you'll be dead.

Jesus H Christ, not only do you not understand the difference between sex and reproduction, you don't understand the difference between sterilization and castration.

The men in my family don't want too many kids.

Why is that so hard to understand?

People think that breeding to the point of overload is the human thing to do. But it is isn't. That's what animals do in unbalanced ecosystems. Where I lived in Massachusetts, every few years skunks would become numerous in the summer. You would smell them every night. See them every day. Almost trip over them at night as they lay on the sidewalks. And then the next year - nothing, not a one. That's nature. Keep breeding until it all crashes. Humans are supposed to be thinkers and planners. Not overbreeding would be the uniquely human thing to do.

Of course they start raving that the Earth can support ten times the current population - as if that number would only be reached in thousands of years. And even if that number was corect (and they think all land is arable land) what then? If you go to the limit, then what? Everyone would die. They just regress the issue until the final consequence would be even worse.

Why would a god worry about offending the Romans? And if Jesus did cause offense, then what would happen?

"Is there any argument what-so-ever for ignoring two decades of experience? I can't think of anything I feel the same about as I did that long ago."

We could begin by basing our politics, economics or religion on reality instead of feelings {propoganda}. Then we wouldn't have to change our beliefs about every new *wind-of-doctrine* that happens to cross our path.

After two or three decades of experience that proves you are correct, because what you have been expecting {and warning others of} is coming to pass, perhaps you would feel more comfortable about staying the course, instead of going off on another fruitless tangent of idealogical snipe-hunting.

I remember reading once that green is the most restful color for your eyes, and that's why they changed the color of blackboards to green.

I don't know. I think it's innate in us to love trees.

There was a beautiful tree on the corner of my workplace when I started working there, 18 years ago.

I loved that tree.

When they were expanding the parking lot, they announced that so many people spoke out for that tree, that they were going to "spare" it.

Wow! I hadn't spoken for the tree, but apparently I wasn't the only one that loved it.

So they "spared" the tree. They didn't cut it down, they just mutilated it, cutting so many of its branches that it just looked pathetic.

Then they cut it down 2 years later.

Yeah, you're right. We'll be sorry someday.

I'm sorry now.

H? Herman? Woman look to yourself. Men need to be capable of repopulating the Earth. We are all potential Adams - if need be.

It was Q's solution to overpopulation to kill off gramps and grandma.

It's mine to pay for voluntary sterilization, to be decided by individuals.

Abstinence education? I don't think that anyone here has advocated that, although I wouldn't be surprised if some of the christians were all about it.

"Why would a god worry about offending the Romans? And if Jesus did cause offense, then what would happen?"

Ahmed, try to pay attention. It was the temple tax being discussed.

Its kinda like you talking sh!t to people before they have a chance to hear what you are saying. If they are offended for what you say rather than the way you say it, fine. If you allow something like a small silver coin, which you got for free, to keep you from accomplishing your mission, this would exhibnit a profound lack of foresight. Unless, of course, your mission in life is to curse rather than to bless.

"Then he told John's disciples, "Go back to John and tell him what you have seen and heard—the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised to life, and the Good News is being preached to the poor.
And tell him, 'God blesses those who do not turn away because of me."

I can't think of four more environmentally conscious men than they. I'm pretty sure that if the population of humans on earth were to drop, none of them would want to restart that bubble.

It was the temple tax being discussed.
==

Idiot, there is no temple tax and there never was. What there was, is taxes collected for the Romans by the quislings the Romans put in power backed by the Roman army. It was taxes paid to Caesar and Imperial Rome.

Is there any argument what-so-ever for ignoring two decades of experience? I can't think of anything I feel the same about as I did that long ago.
==============

Dale, I often find your comments to be very perceptive but sometimes very naive. The referenced post goes in the naive column.

Tell me anything that has transpired in the past two decades that you believe should have changed the way RP feels about his pet issues. I can't think of a thing. In fact, the past 20 years support the wisdom of his views. If anyone deserves to say "I told you so" it is Ron Paul.

Further, the buying power of the salary of the common man has gone nowhere in 10 years. If anything it has gone down. Since I retired in Feb 2006 the stock market has gone sideways (with a 50% drop to a low in Mar 2009 and then a recovery).

The idle money of retirees, that they were counting on to make 5-7%/yr, is earning virtually nothing. Ditto for the idle money of everyone else if they are fortunate enough to have any. Surely you can't be unaware of this state of affairs.

When asked a question about the "high" price of gold, RP correctly explains "I don't think you understand ... the value of gold is steady ... it is the value of the dollar that has fallen relative to gold and so it takes many more of them to buy an ounce of gold."

You're right. Gosh, I just don't have any idea what's going on out there. Silly me for intruding on an adult conversation. Please, carry on, and tell us how we can fix all the problems with Jesus. I'm all ears (and by that I mean goodbye).

"What there was, is taxes collected for the Romans by the quislings the Romans put in power backed by the Roman army."

Yes, the "quislings" were the temple priests, collecting a tax from conquered servants of the Romans. They were under tribute for not keeping the Law and wishing to have another king over them, like the other nations, instead of YHWH.

Why offend the Romans when their purpose was to bring the people of Israel into repentance {change of mind} which Jesus was also preaching to them? When we have had enough oppression, maybe we should begin asking ourselves, why we are being oppressed, instead of blaming others.

If we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged.

"It was Q's solution to overpopulation to kill off gramps and grandma."

That seems like a risky play given Q's age bracket. Death by ice floe would not be my choice of ways to go!

"It's mine to pay for voluntary sterilization, to be decided by individuals."

I like this idea; have since I heard you lay it down the first time. But sterile wombs don't buy xboxes and cheez doodles. Next, please!

"Abstinence education? I don't think that anyone here has advocated that, although I wouldn't be surprised if some of the christians were all about it."

Isn't that the typical "alternative" on offer when people get down on contraceptives and abortion? It's a little thing I like to call extrapolation;)

I agree that real estate taxes are most ruinous - driving people off the land. And income taxes ruin many as well. So where can the Goverment get its money from? Perhaps Goverment monopolies in certain small industries and/or taxes on luxury items. Don't know, might work. What do you think?

It seems to be a constant game of "yeah, but not in our lifetime". I can't tell you how many times I've gotten that reaction. So what if it's not in our lifetime? The pattern is set. Screw us or screw the kids. Or their kids. What does it matter? I suppose the only way a decent person can be OK with that is to buy the story of unlimited resources and never-ending tech upgrades. Probably why we see so much of that view around here at times.

You're absolutely right. If humans were unique, imbued with the divine, we wouldn't wander aimlessly down the very path that yeasts take in a wine barrel. Or your skunks. But here we are. Proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that we are just animals.

And what's really going to make people cry is when they finally realize that they've destroyed all the real wealth of the planet trying to stockpile paper wealth in order to give their kids a leg up! To what exactly? A desert ruin? I can certainly envision within my lifetime the sight of worthless 20 dollar bills blowing into the cracked gutters along crumbling streets. Although I don't think it'll happen abruptly. I think we're watching it happen now, in slow motion.

Wage,

Nothing like setting something up so you can go ahead against popular opinion. Why it's a fait acompli!

How many times have you seen a penny on the ground and just ignored it? I have plenty! I don't even like pennies. I think we should stop wasting our time/money/energy minting them! Everyone knows that, for all practical purposes, $2.99 is the same thing as $3.00. More, actually, once you throw in tax. And the 9/10 of a penny tacked onto gas prices? Ludicrous. And insulting. Pennies should be abandoned.

And one day, if this does keep heading the way it is without sudden collapse, $20 bills will be thought of the same way. That's the catabolic collapse already well underway.

One of the best investments these days is turning that $20 bill into a fruit tree. While it's still so cheap and easy to do so.

Yes, the "quislings" were the temple priests, collecting a tax from conquered servants of the Romans. They were under tribute for not keeping the Law and wishing to have another king over them, like the other nations, instead of YHWH.
==

I see, so now we're back to blaming the victims of Roman imperialism and despotism, because.. let me get this, they preferred roman despotism by supposedly not being obedient enough to jewish law. The same jewish law btw, which you paulitine roman imperialists broke from day one and claimed to be irrelevant.

You're not only a total idiot, but you're also a typical christian hypocrite and a callous shmuck. I hope that one day we meet face to face so when I smash your head in with a baseball bat, you and I can rationalize it in the same terms that you have done just above.

"And thats without abortions, sterilizations or Barry White tapes." - Beasley

Tapes? In which century are you living? Hey, maybe you should come over some time and check out this new Atari game I got. It's called Pong.

And one day, if this does keep heading the way it is without sudden collapse, $20 bills will be thought of the same way. That's the catabolic collapse already well underway.

=====================

Tripp, I visited Brazil in the 80s and the streets were littered with coins. I stupidly started picking them up until I noticed the Brazilians were staring and laughing at the gringo. Then I learned they were worth nothing due to inflation. Argentina went through a similar collapse.

Inflation is not catastrophic and Ron Paul is an ignorant idiot.

Look at Brazil today. South America is doing better than Europe or North America. The USA is growing at 2%.

Paraguay ... 15.3%

Argentina ... 9.2%

Peru ... 8.8%

Uruguay ... 8.5%

Brazil ... 7.5%

When people talk about the "global economic crisis" I wonder if the global south is so completely invisible to them that South American economic growth is ignored. Things are cooking in the global south.

"Please, carry on, and tell us how we can fix all the problems with Jesus. I'm all ears (and by that I mean goodbye)."

My, my a bit cranky because I made you look like a twit with the guppy story and how your "prescription for less" would lead to certain starvation? And then you want to bring Jesus into it? I don't remember my fingers typing the word "Jesus" before my response to your sophomoric (or is that sopho-moronic?) drivel.

But......nowthatyoubroughtitup...one central doctrine that Jesus left behind is that "no one can fix all the problems with Jesus." He said up front that "...the poor will always be with us." Period. Then he told us that it is incumbent upon us to take care of the less fortunate. Nowhere did he proscribe that government need be the mechanism to "take care of the less fortunate".

SOURCE: CIA Fact Book (2011)

The growth rates given above are for the real GDP growth rate, the value of all final goods and services produced within a nation in a given year, taking into account inflation.

"One of the best investments these days is turning that $20 bill into a fruit tree. While it's still so cheap and easy to do so."

Or, if you want to buy into your "theory" why not save yourself the $20.00 and plant the seed out of your next apple or peach? (I'm disappointed with you Trip!)

Hey, he volunteered! Plus, he says his wife is enthusiastically on board. Which isn't hard to believe.

I have an emergency potato question. I was going to ask Ripped, since he deals with freezing weather, but you probably know also.

We have flirted with low temperatures lately, and I've been covering my tomatoes, squash and eggplants, which have picked this time of year to start producing! Finally. I've left the potatoes alone, believing them to be impervious to cold weather, but I'm clearly wrong about that. They're wilting.

Tonight a hard freeze is forecast. Should I just give up on the tomatoes and use the boxes to cover the potatoes? Or dig the rest of the potatoes today?

I've been getting some really nice red potatoes, finally. But there's a bunch of little ones, and I want them to grow. After two nights of freezes, we're going to get more warm weather.

Usually, I bring the tomatoes inside, vines and all, and just let them hang out, slowly ripening. But should I risk two more nights?

Aaaagghh! If I guess wrong, it's ruined. What do you think?

Whew, this is getting interesting. DICTATORIAL no less:


"Rep. Ron Paul (R-TX) says President Obama's continued use of the executive order "brings the modern presidency dangerously close to an elective dictatorship."

"That is arrogant," Paul said of Obama frequently using the executive order function as of late. "It is flaunting the Constitution and the whole principle of how we’re supposed to operate. The idea they can just do this and take over the legislative function and brag about it -- and Congress does nothing and the courts do nothing about it, it's very, very bad."

"He's dictatorial, is what he is," Rep. Paul said before the end of the interview."

"He's dictatorial, is what he is," Rep. Paul said." And he IS. And this is where "progressivism" takes one.

"Tonight a hard freeze is forecast. Should I just give up on the tomatoes..."

If its a hard freeze you can dampen some old sheets and drape them over the tomato plants. It's the same theory behind why fruit tree growers will spray trees with mist before a hard freeze. The water tends to keep the frost from penetrating the plant cells.

"I see, so now we're back to blaming the victims of Roman imperialism and despotism, because..."

No, you do not see; you are too busy calling people names to learn anything. You called them "quislings", not me. So, are they "victims" or "quislings"? Are you upholding their actions or excusing them?

Not to defend Obama's use of the executive order, but he aint the one that got that ball rolling in the first place. Once the legislature and the courts allowed it to first happen, they opened the flood gates. Obama's just walking down the path that his predecessors paved.

Hey do any of you CFNers have any thoughts on the imminent financial collapse of Italy, or (2) possible Israeli air and missile strikes this week against Iran?

Don't ask me, this is what they're saying on CNN.

--WSP7

Because if any of those scenarios play out it really might be WideSpreadPanic time!

--WSP7

It was Q's solution to overpopulation to kill off gramps and grandma.
===============

You seem to get great pleasure in mischaracterizing things I say. I did not say "kill off." I said pull the plug (i.e. cease taking extraordinary measures to prolong life) on aged people with negative quality of life and no hope of recovery.

At the end my own 84 year old mother was a 70 lb vegetable lying in a fetal position, her mind ravaged by Alzheimer's, in a nursing home in Florida that reeked of urine, attended by cheerless, perpetually "on break," overweight black orderlies with their own problems, who could barely disguise their disinterest. And really, who could blame them.

I favor your plan as well. I, personally, had a vasectomy shortly after my third child was born ... at my own expense. Although I oppose all forms of govt subsidy, what the hell, if they're going to dole out money for Prog's trees they may as well do something really useful and stop ghetto queens from having another litter of thugs and future ghetto queens.

If a choice had to be made between preventing a new life and ending an old (and fully lived) life I would choose the latter. There are so many reasons that go beyond mere population reduction. The growing ratio of old to young people is a ticking time bomb. The resentment of the old by the young is already palpable.

He's not "walking down the path" he is engaged in a full blown sprint. And the path is headed down hill. And he'll find himself unable to slow down if his pace continues. And that means he will stumble. And the quicker the pace, the worse the stumble. And we'll all be rolling down the hill with him. And its gonna hurt like hell by the time we stop.

"What do you think?"

The discussion at hand involves who is free as well as who is being oppressed. One who willingly pays a tariff to do business in a particular locale is not being oppressed since he has a choice of not paying the tariff and trading with others.

This is being muddled by making issues of victimology, name calling and attribution of beliefs not held, as well as simply ignoring obvious questions.

Yes. It is all but certain that Italy will default on its debt and there is nothing the EU can do about it. Italy is the third largest economy in the Eurozone and its debt dwarfs that of Greece. The Euro is over, it's only a matter of time.

As for Iran, I think I can safely speak for many others when I state that something about this whole thing smells fishy-in the tail wagging the dog sort of way.

wage said "I remember reading once that green is the most restful color for your eyes, and that's why they changed the color of blackboards to green."

Maybe thats why I had such a hard time staying awake in class...

Could you be any more obtuse? Don't act like Obama invented the executive order. Me thinks your dislike of Obama's EOs is rooted more in your political leanings than in any particular order you take offense to.

No, you do not see; you are too busy calling people names to learn anything. You called them "quislings", not me. So, are they "victims" or "quislings"? Are you upholding their actions or excusing them?
==

The quislings were the Roman installed government. The government doesn't pay taxes, the government collects taxes. It's regular people who are victimized. Are you that much of a moron not to understand this?

If Italy collapses or Israel busts a move all bets, regarding the world economy, are off.

Spend 10 minutes watching CNBC. The traders are spooked. They know one thing, and that is that there is a whole lot of shit going on in the world right now that they don't really know shit about. That's always the case to some degree but the uncertainties piling up due to global turmoils is mind numbing. The DOW is currently down 383 points (3:00 p.m.).

WSP7

I have a thought about Italy. It is not Greece. All the chatter on CFN has been about Greece. Now, all of a sudden, it is Italy, not Greece, that is about to default. Does not speak well of Max Keiser, Ron Paul, Matt Taibbi, and all the macro-economics-obsessed CFNers that all along the focus was on Greece.

Greece could be let go. Italy will be rescued. Italy is "too big to fail"

Will this cause problems? Will there be a domino effect? No. The bankers are not stupid. They have known about Italy's economic situation for quite a while and have been factoring in Italy's default.

The global impact of Italy will be minimal, almost imperceptible in the global south, where real GDP is more than triple the USA GDP.

Soak, you have to remember that I'm not pulling for growth. Growth = death. Anyway, I doubt that growth in the south is outpacing contraction in the north. But that's a good thing!

After two or three decades of experience that proves you are correct, because what you have been expecting {and warning others of} is coming to pass, perhaps you would feel more comfortable about staying the course, instead of going off on another fruitless tangent of idealogical snipe-hunting.
-----------------------------------------
People's memories about what they believed in 20+ years ago are, more often then not, flawed. We remember what we were right about and forget the rest. I'll trust your approach when its written down, kept for a period of time, then reviewed, otherwise it's more likely to be ego talking than predictive ability, IMO.

Nowhere did he proscribe that government need be the mechanism to "take care of the less fortunate".
==================

pro·scribe
1.to denounce or condemn (a thing) as dangerous or harmful; prohibit.
2.to put outside the protection of the law; outlaw.
3.to banish or exile.
4.to announce the name of (a person) as condemned to death and subject to confiscation of property.

Tootsie meant prescribe.

"As for Iran, I think I can safely speak for many others when I state that something about this whole thing smells fishy-in the tail wagging the dog sort of way."

The fix is in. When Sarcozy & Obama's mikes were accidentally "left on" they both ended up taking cheap shots at Netanyahu. Then they tell all attendant journalists who heard the mic "broadcast" , "Hey, you guys can't say shit about this. Now sign this saying you won't."

What journalist worth their salt (and there are few that are) wouldn't immediately start typing out that little story. How perfect for the Administration to plant this story. "Why" you may ask?

Well, when Israel has decided it can wait no longer, regarding Iran's intentions, actions will be taken. Obama and Sarc are on record saying, "We don't even like the fucker. We had nothing to do with the air strikes on Iran."

Its known as plausible deniability. Cute, huh?

"Or, if you want to buy into your "theory" why not save yourself the $20.00 and plant the seed out of your next apple or peach? (I'm disappointed with you Trip!)"

Tell you what, you plant all the apple seeds you want and let me know how that goes for you. Grafting skills are definitely on my list of things to pick up along the way, but you can't acquire everything you need at one time. (And if you could you wouldn't know what to do with any of it!) Like you! You think that you can plant apple seeds and grow food!

Lesson number one, grasshopper: stay within your knowledge base when you stop by our little pub for a chat.

Italy may be saved, but how? The EU will buy up their bad debt with with newly printed euros, just as the US did with the TBTF banks. All that does is hold things off for a while until the next crack in the dyke is exposed. Ultimately this will all end badly. It has to because the cancer is not being cured, it's only being given drugs and Chemo to keep it contained for a little while. Eventually is will spread again and the host will die.

My apologies for the poor analogy.

I never thought of that but you are correct in that it would provide convenient cover for the administration. I don't know if it would be enough though.

Further, the buying power of the salary of the common man has gone nowhere in 10 years. If anything it has gone down.
-------------------------------------------
Tik,
I didn't choose the 1913 time frame, YOU did (or RP did), and on that interval the average guy in the U.S. has done remarkably well, even when it includes the last ten years.....and gee whiz, the price of gold has just flown since then huh?

Who cares about the price of gold BTW, how has the value of gold affected you in the last 40 years? Are you better off than your parents were? Are you better off than you were 40 years ago? Those are the questions that matter, not whether the price of gold was stable or not.

Libs like to posture they are just being rational or "telling it like it is", but their ideas are extremely ideological and darwinian. If the strong should triumph over the weak, then I should be able to come over to your house and take what I want and if you can't stop me, tough!

Likewise, the Libs don't factor in corruption, extreme greed or the value of a cohesive society. If it's going to be "winner take all", expect to pay a lot more oppressing the poor and others who are left out of the current crony capitalist system. I could go on and on...but why bother.

I get plenty of free herbs and trees for my gardens, but genetic diversity strikes me as a good thing in an uncertain climatic future, human-caused or otherwise. Don't run around shouting "the sky is falling!", plant 8 varieties of pears, each with its own favorite weather pattern - late bloomer to avoid late frosts, thrives in dry summer, wet summer, resistant to fire blight, scab, etc, etc. Then you will stand a good chance of ending up with pears for the year, no matter what the weather does.

But you will have to buy some genetics to achieve this kind of resilience. Spend your money wisely. Plan to feed 10 other people.

Sorry Wage, meant to tag Asoka with that last post.

"...that all along the focus was on Greece."

Good lord, who the hell thought Greece was relevant? Haven't you heard of PIIGS? It never had anything to do with Greece, they were merely the canary in the coal mine. The dominos are tumbling. Its just a matter of time until the Euro tsunami hits our shores.

Duly noted.

You are wisely getting out of the cash economy altogether. Best move you could make in my opinion. I am all about living within means on my small monthly stipend and making do with what I have.

For example, I wear the same clothes for 20 years, shoes for 10, etc. Mend, fix, make things last instead of buying new things.

Being retired and on a fixed income has been very helpful, putting into practice all I have learned in almost seven decades to live on less than $1000 a month (Social Security). I have no private pension because I cashed it in to buy land and build an adobe house (something Q said would never happen, btw).

Here are some suggestions for living on $1,000 a month:

http://w4.telcen.com/simpleliving.html
How I Live on just $12,000 a year

Of course, when I make my move to the global south, I will be able to live on $500 and save $500 a month.

" Plan to feed 10 other people."

Make it 11. They'll want your stuff too. That is how this will shake out.

Qstick said: "The growing ratio of old to young people is a ticking time bomb. The resentment of the old by the young is already palpable."

First Myrtle and now you. This is massive projection in my opinion. There is no mass of sentiment that feels this way among the young. Al Brook's latest book and JHK's comments notwithstanding, its much ado about nothing.

Some boomers in guilt-ravaged solipsism will project the disgust they feel about themselves on others who they feel might be entitled to such a sentiment.

Boomers remain in a decidedly narcissistic state where everything is framed in terms of their life experience. This is a result not so much, I think, of the general tendency of a generation of navel-gazers, so much as the ossification of a lifetime of experience. What you remember stays the same; life changes.

Myrtle mentioned something to the effect of, why must we be held responsible, after all, we were born into a world of cheap fossil fuels.

The bottom line for boomers is that your cohort holds the vast majority of wealth; your cohort controls the political system as a bloc; and your cohort controls the institutions of society by virtue of seniority. And your cohort is the largest group of consumers ever on the Earth. Since we live in a consumer-driven industrial culture, your interests determine how and what gets "produced".

The struggles of your generation were not consummated by constructive change. The radicalism of the postwar era was window-dressing for the reality of corporate consolidation of power, globally. There was a revolution, and it failed. Conformity and a dedication to existing ways of life won out. Generational change is nearly always marginal. But that is a cynical view.

The industrial legacy of the postwar era is a bill you will never pay. You can't pay it. The distribution of waste products across the planet, social security economics, climate science reflect this and no one is demanding that you pay for it.

Myrtle is right, in the sense that one is not responsible for circumstance, or what happens to them. But that does not absolve anyone from anything.

The young, by and large, don't hate you, they follow your example. You set the bar: what kind of person should I be? What do I have to do to get that job? What is a standard of living? How do I act in the corporate culture? What kind of politics or religion should I follow?

I don't know if it would be enough though.

------------

LOL!

I think WWIII would cover anything that needs covering. :(

"Anyway, I doubt that growth in the south is outpacing contraction in the north. But that's a good thing!"

That's probably too simple a division. The people profiting from growth in the south are the same people who were profiting from growth in the north. There really is no meaningful country division in the global economy. The more useful division is uber-wealthy, and everyone else. Either way, it's the net global movement that matters most.

Good lord, who the hell thought Greece was relevant?

--------

Pissant, you are taking the Lord's name in vain.

To answer your question: JHK thought Greece was relevant, lbendet thought Greece relevant, and most the other commenters on the Euro-crisis for the last two months have thought Greece was relevant. Not to mention the Greeks in the streets.

"Make it 11. They'll want your stuff too. That is how this will shake out."

Does it surprise anyone else that pissant's knee-jerk response is violence? Yeah, I know, surprised the shit outta me too.

CFNers thanx for weighing in on Italy, Israel and Iran.

--WSP7

No problem, WSP7. My opinions are worth what you paid for them. :)

Oh man, breaks my heart, I know you had to give it up! One wants to hear that you took his gun and made him lick all the tires. I know you COULD do it! BSTS!

"To answer your question: JHK thought Greece was relevant, lbendet thought Greece relevant, and most the other commenters on the Euro-crisis for the last two months have thought Greece was relevant."

Uh, huh. All you big time investors? All you financial geniuses? Thats what you thought?

Google PIIGS. It involves 5 countries, Greece being the most irrelevant. Greece is merely the first. Now comes Italy. Ireland, Portugal and Spain? Who knows but its right around the bend. And we aren't about to get a free ride either.

We spent/spend too much. Greece just pumped up the volume a little higher. You know, short work weeks, early retirement 30% of the population works for the government? The piper is here. Open your purse. Its gonna hurt. Everyone who has a brain and is honest knows its going to hurt.

I forgot to mention that in the global south you can get a no-risk, fixed rate of return of 16% on your money in banks, something banks in the USA are not offering.

But then the global south seems to be invisible to most North Americans. Their gaze is fixed on Asia and Europe and they bemoan stagnation and inflation.

"I'll trust your approach when its written down, kept for a period of time, then reviewed, otherwise it's more likely to be ego talking than predictive ability, IMO."

http://www.ronpaul.com/2009-02-15/ron-paul-on-money-banking-and-the-crisis-1988/

Mrs Beasley,

Don't put words in my mouth. I was pointing out last week that a small country like Greece effects the global economy because of unsustainable Globalism.

We were all talking about the PIIGS countries for months,Greece was the third. Ireland and Iceland were the two they concentrated on before Greece. Point is they are taking down these countries and going for the public sector and austerity Milton Friedman style. Read the "Shock Doctrine" by Naomi Klein, MB.

AND BTW I never said anything about being an investor. I got my money out of stock funds in May 2008 after reading about CDO's on Matt Savinar's site. LATOC.(Life After the Oil Crash) Too bad he gave it up for astrology.

Oh and also Hilary would have done exactly the same as Obama. They all have the same belief system and she got $700,000. for Colombia for her campaign to favor CAFTA.

Now that's why we don't like campaign finance the way it's run, now. We are not a national economy--We're all global now.

"Does it surprise anyone else that ????? knee-jerk response is violence?


What is occurring all over the ME since the "Arab Spring" took hold? What were the car burnings in Paris, and the recent Summer riots in London? What, on an admittedly much smaller scale, has broken out in some of the OWS cities of size? Violence. How is my reportage of what has already occurred knee-jerk?

OWS will slow down fairly soon as the wind blows cold in the North. But come Spring, the festering reasons for the current occupations will not have gone away. The tents will be back. But along with the current disgruntled bunch will be additional people on the street for additional issues.

The Presidential season will be bustling and pour millions into the streets for various political causes. Hell, JHK is calling for everyone to head to the convention cities. Just where do you think this will lead? You think when the President of the United States has decided to use "class warfare" as his campaign strategy that this will promote what, Maypoles and cum-buy-yah? You're funny.

"Are you that much of a moron not to understand this?"

"They that received the tribute money" {Israelites} were the ones asking Peter whether Jesus paid tribute. These are the ones {Israelites} that Jesus did not want to offend, NOT the Romans.

Jesus was asking, "Why are you paying tribute?" IOW, who has conquered you? These were God's people paying tribute to an earthly king. Jewish tradition {the commandments and doctrines of men} led them into oppression, Jesus was showing the way {out}.

It's a good point Confu, I should have paid more attention to the numbers. There are more whites than I thought.

I find the heavies interesting, with the Ukrainians, Russians, Uzbekistan, and Poland essentially filling the tier. Chris Arreola, 10th, being the only U.S. representative. I'm looking at rankings about a year old.

I can't help but see boxing politics and the Russian mob in this.

Your home, your bank account, your car/bike, your clothes, your refrigerator, etc. etc. etc. are assets. You really want them nationalized? Because that is where your "logic" follows.
==============

Tootsie meant leads.

Whether or not the Russian mob is involved in boxing, it has little impact on the dominance of the Klitschko boys. As for politics, as in every other aspect of life, it has a place. I don't know if you have ever seen them fight but I can assure you they got to the top because they beat the best that was put in front of them, minus the few losses. Also, their sheer size (6'6" to 6'7" and about 245 lbs)usually gives them an advanatge but it doesn't explain it all. Vitali, the older of the two, may not be the best boxer but he has a straight right that would fell a clydesdale (actually, both of them do) and has never been down. Wladimir, while not as strong-chinned as his brother, is a much better boxer and can move surprisingly well for his size. BTW, both guys have PhDs and are fluent in four languages.

Anyway, the point is that boxing is a sport that is dominated by individuals that grew up in tough environments, whether it be inner-city Detroit or the ghettos of Kiev.

"We are not a national economy--We're all global now."

Don't you get it? That is about to unravel. The Euro will most likely fail. Countries are coming to the realization that trying to control profligate spenders (Greece, Italy, ?) amongst their member nations is neigh impossible.

We're going through the same thing here. State's rights via Federal. If you are too far from the flame (Washington) you never feel the warmth. D.C. can't possibly fund the needs of Texans' more efficiently than Austin. Brussels can't anticipate Spain's or France's needs either.

Look its as basic as this, Individuals have individual needs. Nations, first and foremost, should have the interests of their citizens as their top priority. Otherwise why have a nation? Once the shoulders needed to prop up the PIIGS countries, can no longer support the weight, a leader cannot tell his countrymen, "We need to take care of country X's banks" when they can't meet their own nation's needs. It is against human nature and destined to fail.

D.C. can't possibly fund the needs of Texans' more efficiently than Austin.

===============

10 years of Republican Rick Perry... and now Austin cannot fund the needs of Texas.

Gov. Perry has taken the state of Texas deep into debt. Texas has racked up $282 billion in debt -- one of the highest state debts in the nation. That is what good "conservative" leadership gets you.

That is what Bush did to the country as a whole.

What does unsustainable mean to you? It damn well better unravel!--We'll be hurtin' but we will be anyway.

BTW--Dylan Ratigan is great today!! Everything from the Int'l banking system to arms trade---check it out later on his website if you're not watching it now.

SOURCE: State Budget Solutions' (SBS) second annual state deficit report, Oct. 2011.

If there is some good news for Texas in the report, it’s that when you divide outstanding debt up per-person in the state, Texas is in the middle of the pack, at $1,568 per Texan, based on state-issued financial reports.

That’s lower than Rhode Island’s per-capita debt of $3,000 or Oregon’s $2,960.

States with the lowest per-capita debt include Nebraska at $21, Wyoming at $78 and Indiana at $196.

"Since we live in a consumer-driven industrial culture, your interests determine how and what gets "produced"."

So that's why I've been seeing so much Milk of Magnesia on the shelves lately. Hmmm!

I don't blame any generation for the way they were raised. I was raised in a very conservative Southern Baptist household, for cryin' out loud. But the important part is that as an adult I investigated the world on my own and eventually adopted an entirely different worldview based on my findings, and broke radically free from my upbringing. I laid a critical eye on the system and the system came up wanting.

I do wish more boomers could see the rarity of their situation, though, and try to understand that that party is ending, and that there's a helluva mess to clean up. And since they hold all the leverage they ought to either be willing to grab a mop, or at least pay someone else to.

Where I do get irritated with boomers is when they act like anyone should be able to do what they did, with enough elbow grease! Yeah, you're just inherently better people than we are, sure. Never mind the fact that all the hard infrastructure and social capital had already been put in place by their parents and grandparents - the telephone system, automobiles, the interstate highways, Social Security, etc. And do they not know that they just happened (it's actually not a coincidence viewed energetically), just happened to preside over the exploitation of the easiest and most productive quarter of the world's oil supply?

The technical kinks had already been worked out by their forebears, as they learned over the previous century how to exploit what ended up being the first quarter of Earth's oil; and we today are now left with the third, and more difficult quarter to extract and exploit, attempting to run a system that was built on the lowest hanging fruit. Fracking? Tar sands? Horizontal drilling? A mile of ocean in the way? Nonsense! In my day all we did was stick a straw in the near-surface pressurized field down the street, and kick back to dream up new ways to burn that shit.

The funadmentals of life are very different for the younger generations today than they were when the boomers were our age. I'm not sure many of them will ever really understand the gravity of those disparities, and to me that's probably one of the toughest parts about the situation we inherited. We're expected to be something we physically can't be, to do things we physically can't do, and there is a stigma that will be automatically attached to our generation by our boomer forebears that has very little basis in reality. Not our reality anyway.

I could go on and on...but why bother.
===========

Dale, I'll come back and address all the points in your 3:31PM response to my earlier post but first YOU have to answer the question I asked and you so conveniently avoided.

First, you said:

Is there any argument what-so-ever for ignoring two decades of experience? I can't think of anything I feel the same about as I did that long ago.

Then I asked you to:

Tell me anything that has transpired in the past two decades that you believe should have changed the way RP feels about his pet issues. I can't think of a thing.

I'm assuming the predictions you are referring to are on the website druid posted>

Tomatoes should be able to handle a few light freezes. If it's a serious one, you could always just pick the fruit and stick it in the window, or in the cellar. The less the tomatoes touch each other the slower they'll ripen.

Potatoes will die back in a decent frost. But the plants will still be there to mark the location of the booty on the map of your garden. Won't hurt the spuds.

(Who cares about the eggplants; I'm always sick of eggplant by fall;)

If you have just a few of each, by all means, just cover them up!

"Too bad he gave it up for astrology."

Wow, you weren't joking. Weird!

Nice rant, Tripp.

I could write one similar about how my parents' generation had it even better, back when unions were strong, only one parent had to work and could buy a car and house and raise kids on just one income ... an income that paid well thanks to the union, back when the USA had money in the bank, back when people ended up with THREE pensions, like my uncle: an Army pension, a GM pension, AND Social Security. I only have the latter.

But I'm not complaining. I was able to work 45 years (albeit at low-paying jobs) and retire with $1,000 a month, without debt, needing little, having enough ... and being joyously alive.

"Whether or not the Russian mob..."

Certainly the Russians COULD affect the dominance of the Klitschkos to a greater or lesser extent depending on how deeply they were entrenched.

It would be done by employing the classic, time tested tactics of fear and intimidation, the threat of sudden death. They could:

1.Have them lose when suitable
2.Determine the length of reign
by manipulating opponents
3.Fix the judges
4.Intimidate legitimate opponents, etc.

I have seen both of them fight a number of times.
Yes, they have the power, but I still say that with boards like those you could frame a house.

"...and being joyously alive."

Except for that brain dead thingy.

We're going through the same thing here. State's rights via Federal.
============

Tootsie meant vs.

"Texas has racked up $282 billion in debt -- one of the highest state debts in the nation. That is what good "conservative" leadership gets you."

What do you identify with 282 billion dollars of debt as being conservative? There is absolutely nothing conservative about it.

"Too bad he gave it up for astrology."

=================

Hey, don't knock astrology! The United States presidency ran on astrology for a while. Ronny had the big A and Nancy was guiding the country with astrology, making national decisions implemented through Ronny.

I'm assuming the predictions you are referring to are on the website druid posted>
================

I said nothing about "predictions" and I haven't looked at Druid's website.

I'll tell you what ... forget the whole thing ... I can see where this conversation is leading ... nowhere.

I assume you're referring in part to Jerry Quarry?
He was actually a very good fighter and would be undisputed champion if fighting today. Unfortunately, he fought in the era of Ali, Frazier, etc.

But why do you insist on presenting a racial angle regarding the mass indifference to a moribund sport? Boxing has been on the decline for at least a decade or so and it has nothing to do with ethnicity.

If I have to try to figure out what you mean by RP's "pet issues", (and what that means in terms of his ability to lead) I would for once agree with you that this is heading no-where.

What I was suggesting in my original statement is; periodically "game changers" occur, that reset the peramaters of what is possible or what should even be considered in areas such as economics. I could name a number of those in the last 20+ years. The rise of China, for example.

For those who might be interested, there's a book by Willard Wells titled, "Apocalypse When? Calculating How Long the Human Race Will Survive".

I haven't read it yet, just the reviews. Here's some stuff from Sam Goldberg's review.

"The author includes some discussion of fascinating topics such as Fermi's paradox, the doomsday argument, Zipf's law, and Gott's survivability predictor and the Copernican principle."

"Wells develops mathematical formulas that yield startlingly specific results. We learn that the risk of extinction is currently 3% per decade, while the risk of a lesser apocalyptic event, the collapse of civilization, is triple that, about 10% per decade"

"This collapse, short of extinction, will kill most humans and thereby eliminate most man-made hazards, but will thereby create for those who survive a very safe time."

"Furthermore, such a major collapse is required for humanity's long term survival."

Then deeper stuff, deriving the fundamental Gott equation different ways and modifying it to account for multiple independent risks.....blah, blah, blah.

The "benefits" of globalism are a one-way street. No where is the out and out sham of "globalism" more apparent than in the protectionist policy of the American pharmaceutical industry.

Lies, nothing but lies.

Druid,
I would describe PR's statements in that video as a conventional understanding of the U.S. (less all the conspiracy talk about the Trilateral Commission etc, which was more his reviewers hang-up anyway) economic system in 88 and now, if you really just look at the situation. Many people in politics and economics could (and often did) say the same thing….including Bernie Sanders. It says nothing about how we should respond, which I think would be quite different now, than it was in 88. So, I'm not quite sure what you think I should be thinking after watching that.

My argument would be that I doubt RP's responses would be much different now than in 88, which I would think is an indication of a hard ideological bias. Furthermore, I'm not sure he or anyone else would get it all, or even mostly right, in their response. But Ronny boy, regards himself as being unswerving knowledgeable and holding all the right answers. Guys with all the answers to very complex problems, usually have oversimplified the problem, and that is what I think of Libertarianism, it oversimplifies the problems.

BTW, if you doubt this guy is an ideologue, consider that he named his kid "Rand". Also, our previous chief of the FED was a Randite, and look what that got us.

There was an Federal appeals court decision in the news this morning that said all 313,000,000 people in the US can be compelled under penalty of LAW - to buy health insurance from a private company, whether they want to or not.

There was another Federal decision that said cigarette companies CAN NOT be compelled by any LAW - to put pictures of diseased lungs on their packaging.

So, apparently - freedom is for corporations and individuals deserve the opposite - going by today's court decisions.
---------------
Government of, by and for the Corporations?
The best government money can buy?

Stupid is as stupid does?

Very interesting! And I would definitely agree that the collapse of civilization is required for humanity's long-term survival.

I will NEVER, and I mean NEVER, be forced to buy insurance in a "health"care system that I fundamentally disapprove of. I would rather have no money a'tall than bend over for those jagoffs. How do you want me to pay my premium? In Swiss chard? No, not francs, chard. That IS my health insurance, you dipshits. Don't you get that??

Tripp, anybody who works (or worked in the 20th century) has had withholding from their salary and has therefore paid FICA. FICA has been in effect for decades. (In the 1960s, Medicare was introduced to rectify the problem of health care for the elderly. The FICA tax was increased in order to pay for this expense.) FICA is mandatory.

FICA stands for Federal Insurance Contributions Act.

Strangely, after 60 years, the idea of a federally mandated health insurance is now objectionable? I wonder why. Could it have anything to do with a certain Tea Party political agenda?

"Maybe prog can tell us if there is some kind of Georgia-Pacific conspiracy to make sure that only corporate trees get used."
-wageL-

Ah, wage, m'lady - finally we have a conspiracy that I can debunk - and you might even believe what I say. :-)

Storm damaged trees are considered by loggers to be "salvage cuts" - or some similar term.
http://mdc.mo.gov/landwater-care/forest-management/forest-health/tree-care-after-storms

I've been involved in a salvage cut or two. Generally - the financial yield is less than 50% of normal to the timber owner. And generally - timber won't be cut on a tract of less than 20 or so contiguous acres.

There are two other big problems with your 100 year old trees. One - is that the equipment to handle trees like that to get them to a sawmill is HUGE. And huge equipment is hard to operate in small spaces - say, less than 10 acres.

Then there's the collateral damage to public streets and private property that WILL occur in a timber cutting operation.

Plus, big old trees from areas where people have lived - tend to present problems when you finally get them to a sawmill. They are not symmetrical and they tend not to have long "stems," which is where the real value of a tree resides. Plus, nowadays, trees are run through a metal detector before going to the saws - and city trees tend to have an inordinate amount of metal in them.

Trees rejected by the mill because of encased metal, or lack of height, or lack of symmetry -
these rejected trees are called "weigh-back," which is money subtracted DIRECTLY from the loggers bottom line - after he has taken all the risk and burned all the diesel to cut the tree, load the tree, and get it to the mill.

I totally agree that it is a shame that all that wood is being wasted. And burning it is the worst possible solution - from an air pollution standpoint.

Although from a standpoint of total atmospheric CO2 - it doesn't matter whether the tree is burned or composted, or simply allowed to rot -
the CO2 is - ultimately - exactly the same.

Good question. Hope this helps.

--------------------
There was some cool stuff going on in Georgia back last year - using otherwise unmarketable timber (like your city salvage stuff, maybe) as "biomass" fuel for local power plants.
I got involved with it - and actually had a logger ready to sign a contract to do some cutting -
When the Fed's shut down the whole program over air pollution concerns.

Lately, I've been thinking that the best way to make a small fortune in the timber business -

Is to start with a large fortune.

Yep. It ain,t workin, Medicaid is bankrupt and as presently structured unsustainable.

Agreed 100%. Perhaps the most absurd feature of any attempt to compel participation in private health insurance is the proposed fine system in which fines are based upon income. Consequently, the hard core unemployed will not be fined, since presumably they have no income, yet perversely, it is precisely the unemployed who typically have no insurance.

It would be interesting to find out whether or not Christian Scientists are exempt from this system, since they do not believe in conventional medicine. So far as I know low income military veterans who pass the means testing at the VA will be exempt from so called "health care reform".

Looking at the never ending parade of fat slobs at the barbershop I marvel that fucking everyone isn't already diabetic at this point, but then I'm not the thinnest myself at 5'11" and 210 pounds. At least I can get up to do haircuts without wincing like the barber who is 5'9" and 310 pounds, and still frequently eating donuts with me. Of course when I eat donuts that is my entire breakfast Organic Gardener Man.

"Strangely, after 60 years, the idea of a federally mandated health insurance is now objectionable? I wonder why. Could it have anything to do with a certain Tea Party political agenda?"

I haven't paid federal income taxes for 4 years now, and only paid them in any quantity between '04 and '07. I didn't hold the convictions then that I do now. I'd have to side with anyone who opposes federally-mandated health insurance, I'm afraid, even if it's the TEA party.

Oh, you'll buy the Insurance, Tripp, lest Obama send Marshalls to your house, and take you to one of Bustin Js Concentration Camps for uncooperative (former) citizens.

And when you buy that insurance you'll have a smile on your face.

---WSP7

"We need to lower our population, as I've said for years. The best way is to pay people for voluntary sterilization. We also need to quit importing labor." -wageL-

Wage, I concur 100% that paying people for voluntary sterilization is a good way to reduce population growth. 100%!!!

So what's the next step. Have you run the idea past the ACLU? I saw, upthread, that asoka. approved of the idea - but have you thought through all of the racial ramifications, asoka.?

Beyond that, wage, is there an organization that is dedicated to bringing your idea to fruition?
Because I'd like to join - and send them some money. Seriously.

=======================================
Discussion thread is looking GOOD this week. NameTa/Spider/8M made a brief appearance - but it was brief - and no harm was done.

Q is trying to help this latest incarnation of TootSie learn to play with the adults - and so far that's working out OK.
Beware of incoming "fucktard torpedoes," Q!
(TM Cash - boy, I miss Cash)

More on immigration and the passage of time, in a bit, Wage.

OK - everyone carry on.

"Of course when I eat donuts that is my entire breakfast Organic Gardener Man."

Organic donuts no doubt. I gave up wheat and sugar 3 weeks ago Saturday, so I'm doomed for donuts. Crap. We'll be driving by my favorite orchard/general store tomorrow afternoon up in the mountains of north Georgia, and I've never passed by without getting a dozen of their world-class fried (and sugar glazed) fruit pies (usually 3 blueberry, 3 blackberry, 3 peach, and 3 cherry). Only 20 bucks too. But I'm feeling so good now, I think I'll be able to do it. Up to 245, down to 210, back up to 230, on the way back down now. Long as the long-term moving average keeps heading south, right?

But be careful using that logic with Tootsie (Beasley for now); she'll toss out some asinine extrapolation that'll have you vaporizing in the breeze soon. She's a total a-hole, btw. In case you haven't noticed.

It ain,t workin, Medicaid is bankrupt and as presently structured unsustainable.

====================

Doesn't "bankrupt" mean no money? Aren't Medicaid payments being made every day? Hence, not "bankrupt."

There is no such thing as Medicaid going "bankrupt." There is no Medicaid trust fund that can run out of funds--the program is paid for each year out of current state and federal revenues and is sustainable. More that I think about it, only a FUCKTARD would think Medicaid is "bankrupt."

Turkle, about Savinar--wish it weren't true!

Some more tidbits

The OWSers are going from Wall St. to Washington by foot, hoping to make it there by Oct 23, the time the"super committee" has to turn in it's decision on deficit reduction.

2. On Ratigan there were lots of good stories today,
a. Pakistan is so paranoid about us that they are moving their (complete) nuclear weapons around the country in daylight, that is in crowded streets in vans.

Imagine this scenero:
2001 Dick Armitage tells Musharaf that if he doesn't cooperate with us we'll bomb them back to the stone age. Now that's what I call influencing people and making them your friends.

Musharaf: " Oh, Dick, I just love when you talk dirty to me. Well, prostitution is the oldest profession, but you know you'll have to pay (billions)."

b. Our biggest export is weapons and we sell to developing countries, by bribing the leadership to buy things they can't even implement. Those weapons often fall into the wrong hands and we face troubles when they use them against their own people. (Can you spell Libya)

c. Even though Greece is going through "austerity" we are still demanding they by these weapons--not enough money to run hospitals, but they gots to fork up the money for weapons--go figure. We are one insane bunch...

Ah, has Tripp been exposed as a non-reasoned twit several times today and a bit cranky? Nap time for baby?

re overpopulation

It's true. Kill yourself. I'll follow you up. Honest.

Hail Ceasar!

Nitwit, I'm on iPad. Hard to type. I'll respond to your moronic medicaid rant at a later time.

"Ah, has Tripp been exposed as a non-reasoned twit several times today and a bit cranky? Nap time for baby?"

Not that anyone here beside you is aware of.

Well, yesterday was election day. The Green Party won elections in California and in Colorado.

Jill Stein for President 2012

It's beyond me how a person can spend his whole adult life studying this history and still not understand the most basic of basics. The tax collectors were working for Rome collecting tribute for Rome through a government installed by Rome.

You offend Rome you get crucified.

I'm sittin' here eating almonds. I wish I could eat local. I love almonds! What is a MA boy to do?The apples are a mess. Pears not so bad. Maples destroyed. WAWAWAWAWAWAWA!

Prone to wishful thinking, aren't we?

This country needs a much lower starting point to recognize actually having 3 squares a day is special. Raze the buildings, it will force people to clean bricks in order to have shelter.

To Tripp, I'm sorry to hear about the rotten deal you were dealt, but knowing you (your writings, I mean) you will take with you a wealth of information that will carry you forward to even greater heights of awareness and self sustainability. You are on the right path, my friend. Don't let the bastards get you down. And to echo Bean, "In the future, get it in WRITING!" Being closer to friends and family can mean everything (you're not getting younger, my friend...40 is it ;). No doubt you and your family will be fine. The knowledge you take with you is worth several acres of farm land.

To Bustin or whoever the hell laid me out for defending the boomers, let's just say that a lot of that generation (mine too) were woefully ignorant until recently about the wastefulness of our consumption. What would you have me do, go back 60 years in time and install solar panels? We didn't know a solar panel from a faux wood grain panel we installed in our dens back then. If a Chrysler 300 boasted zero to sixty in less than 30 seconds, and had fins, hell, we were all for it. Gas was about 30 cents a gallon then. We had no clue. Ignorant? Yep! And rest well, my dear, we are dying off rather quickly. Just not quickly enough to settle the little Social Security/Medicare problem we're in now.

Give us pre boomers and boomers a break. I live a very low energy lifestyle now. My apartment is probably less than 1200 sq. feet, I have steam heat radiators that I mostly keep shut off in the rooms I don't occupy. Air conditioning is held at a strict minimum. I'm unable to walk and get around as much as I used to, so I carpool as much as possible in order to get groceries or go out on the town.

Lastly, the DOW was down almost 400 points today. Glad I cleared my remaining cash out of the markets 2 years ago. Lord knows I'm not getting the 12 percent Asoka is claiming on his investments. He must have some guru who points him in the right direction of the financial Wheel of Fortune. I lost out on that one, big time. Stay loose and stay well, fellow Clusterfuckers!

"If you are so damn worried about immigrants, then throw the employers in prison. Then they won't be sending buses down to Mexico to pick up cheap labor." - wageL-

You know, Wage, it would be funny - if it weren't so tragic - how conditioned we in the US are to think of the term "illegal Mexican," whenever immigration is discussed.

You do it. SNAFU did it. Turkle is so bollixed by the issue that it makes him retreat into Left Wing talking points and become incapable of response.

Illegal immigrants are the least of our immigration problem in the US. And if TS ever impacts that Fan that everyone likes to talk about - most of the illegals will just start walking south towards home and family- and never look back.

Meanwhile - the US allows 1,000,000 LEGAL immigrants into the country every year. Being LEGAL - they immediately make their families eligible for AFDC, Section 8 housing, and all of the alphabet soup of Federal agencies drive the US closer to collapse with each passing year.

The children of these LEGAL immigrants, generally speaking, receive LEGAL free school lunches and breakfasts. Thus do they internalize what is becoming the quintessential Truth of Life in Modern America -

There is a Free Lunch.

These immigrant children will - likely - become as lazy, criminal, tattooed, or drug-addled as the children of native born Americans.

Thus - social/economic/environmental collapse or not - these children will become simple American Consumers - for all of their lives.

The American Dream, indeed - a big flatscreen TV, an IPhone, expensive tennis shoes, and a Free Lunch. In the event of Peak Anything and social upheaval, these LEGAL immigrants will never leave - not that they could, because they would have to fly - to get back to home and family.
No borders - yeah, no kidding.

We are going to go down.
And at 350,000,000 strong by 2030 -
we will take World ecosystems with us.

Join FAIR
or join NumbersUSA

As was said by a thoughtful personality last week, "we need negative population growth in the United States."

And not just in selected counties - we need to stop LEGAL immigration into the US - to obtain overall negative population growth.

I'm afraid we've met before, but I'm more afraid that you're starting to make sense. (to me)

I'm just making a comment and don't need/wish to be participating in your argument w/ Wage on immigration.

Has the fact ocurred to either of you that the Earth's population may take care of itself, via the increasing tensions between nuclear armed Iran and our big, chest-thumping U.S. goverment?

They say in the Bible that Lot's wife was turned into a pillar of salt when she looked back over Sodom and Gomorrah. What will it be like for the majority of us, I wonder, to be turned into fat little pieces of chalk should Iran "beat us to the punch", as it were. Will we have even had the chance to look over our collective shoulder and ask, "Why were we such assholes when it came to dominating oil-rich countries?"

Just a bit of musings on my part.

Flashback to above comment. Had a 1960 Chrysler 300 back in the day. Pretty sure it had a V-8. Had one hell of a power drive. Fire engine red with fins galore. I'm thinking it got maybe 10 or 12 miles a gallon city, maybe 16 or 17 in the country. But then again, we didn't keep really good track of those things back then.

Myrtle, dear, have you been watching too much FOX?

"Has the fact ocurred to either of you that the Earth's population may take care of itself, via the increasing tensions between nuclear armed Iran and our big, chest-thumping U.S. goverment?"
-mm-

I think Obama, the Israelis, the US neocons, or somedamnbody - is just itching to take out Iran's nukes. (nukes Iran doesn't even have, yet.) Apparently you have caught a teeny weeny "propaganda bug," from one of these parties.

First Iran would have to develop the capacity.
Then they would have to build the nuke.
Then they would have to test the nuke.
Then they would have to use the nuke.
Then their deserts could turn to permanent glass.

Remember Mutual Assured Destruction, Ms. Myrtle.
That held the USSR, the Chinese, and the US in check for decades.

The Iranians face only Destruction - if they use a nuke. They have no hope of making it Mutual. Nor do they have a delivery system that can strike more than a few hundred miles.

=====================
A suitcase nuke from Whereeverthehellistan detonated in a US city worries me a little.

Nuclear attack from Iran worries me not at all.

Ecosystem collapse due to US population growth is far more likely than either of these events -

and population growth is something we voters and FAIR/NumbersUSA members can actually try to stop.


I got an old Amazon Kindle for a gift recently. Impressive, a ton of "end of the world stories" for 99 cents, I picked up some ideas about disaster prep. They had zombies, plague, war, environmental collapse, the bad guy--humans. If you have a basic supplies, books, skills ready, next step get to know those neighbors.

P2C:
is there a website that lists all the goodies the new un Americans get or can get?
Brimelow wrote of how 80-90% of Cambodian immigrants need welfare from day1.

Well why is it moribund? People still love violence as much as ever. Obviously the media killed it when Foreign Whites began to take over. It doesn't fit their agenda.

population growth is something we voters and FAIR/NumbersUSA members can actually try to stop.

Luckily, the voters of Arizona have rejected FAIR/NumbersUSA in an historic manner. Russell Pearce took FAIR/NumbersUSA policy statements and crafted them into legislation (SB 1070, "Papers, please")

It turns out that when you allow FAIR and NumbersUSA to write your policy proposals, you get recalled and voted out.

Russell Pearce is the only State Senate President in American history to be recalled by his own constituents.

The American people are waking up to the value of immigrants to American society. Without the immigrants the American economy would collapse.

Amid the blizzard of data concerning immigrants' effects on wages, welfare and municipal budgets, the essential point is this: The latest wave of immigrants -- legal and illegal, skilled and unskilled -- has stimulated enormous economic activity and wealth generation in this country, and it is implausible that the American economy would fare as well without them ... Since most immigrants come when they are young and working... they tend not to collect Social Security or Medicare for many years -- even while paying into the systems with payroll taxes, in many cases with phony Social Security numbers (meaning they will contribute but not collect). In fact, illegal immigrants do not get federal welfare benefits of any kind. At the same time they often pay income tax (through paycheck withholdings) and sales tax, t