Nowhere to Run, Nowhere to Hide


  I landed back in the USA Wednesday from Sweden. What a downer to be reminded that more people speak English in the foreign country you just came from, and to notice what a slum airport New York's JFK is. "Wretched refuse yearning to be free," the poem at the statue of liberty's base declares. How prophetic. Nobody in baggage claim understood the sentence, "Which carousel does the luggage from BA 4872 come to?" Quien sabe? Vem vet? Kim bilar? 谁知道? Ποιος ξέρει?
     The Europeans, by necessity, may excel at learning languages, but at banking and money matters they are perhaps not such geniuses - no matter how creamy the shopgirls are - and in the politics of the region things often devolve to the level of a lethal pie-fight. Now that Germany and France rolled out the latest provisional miracle rescue of their countries' banks, jubilation reigned in the stock markets and the OECD economy is presumably back to turbo hyper warp speed.
     Expect this spirit of euphoria to expire by mid-week. The bankers of the western world and their government helpers have seemingly never heard of unintended consequences, or maybe even consequences, period. The crypto-voluntary bond default of Greece, with 50 percent losses to bond-holders, did not trigger a credit default swap (CDS) "event." Why? Because it is perfectly obvious to all concerned that the CDS market is a grand fraud, so the triggerers are told not to pull any triggers, and it's as simple as that. If CDS were actually allowed to operate as an "insurance" mechanism against dodgy bonds the entire global banking system would go Death Star. Counterparties to these debts could not possibly pay out what the contracts require. So, if CDS are magically "suspended" on Greece's default then they will be suspended for everybody's.
     I don't think it matters so much that the CDS market itself is rendered meaningless, because the counterparties hardly put up any real money in the first place, just promises to come up with money at some future date. What matters more is that there really are no hedges on bonds, no real protection if any bonds flop, which means risk has instantly rematerialized in the bond markets and has to be priced back in to bond sales. Unfortunately, that in itself can easily collapse the global financial system, because if investors really require higher interest rates to buy this stuff, the governments issuing the bonds will all choke to death on the interest payments.
     It will be interesting to see how the so-called advanced economies wriggle out of this dilemma. There may be yet some other ways of extending and pretending, but I don't see it. Rather, it would seem to open the door to universal default. The very next part of the official story is that, supposedly, every investor on God's green earth would come stampeding into American bonds, but where's the hedge now? There is none. Massive European defaults would winnow down the total liquidity supply anyway, and going into US treasuries would be like the remaining victims of a "towering inferno" style conflagration rushing from one burning floor to another. And how much of that hot money has already rushed into mis-priced American stock markets? All the rest of it? One of these days, there will be no buyers showing up for that stuff, and even the HFT robots will develop a sense of artificial trepidation.
     Meanwhile, more than a few banks find that they are catastrophically short of real funds. They can't actually continue the daily churn that constitutes their hypothetical business. Interbank lending would tend to freeze. Suddenly, we are right back at the edge of the same abyss that opened up when Lehman Brothers went up in a vapor three years ago. Only this time it's Lehman Brothers times X.
     There are really only two outcomes I can see in all this. Either money becomes extremely scarce or the money that's there becomes worthless. In either case you're broke, and what remains for all these nations is a fight over the table-scraps of the late and great industrial orgy.
     I know a lot of people think that technology will save us from all this. The story line there is that we'll all be "connected." We'll all network up over the smart-phone and "communicate" and "share" and "innovate." Connection has become a pointless end in itself. It's what you do when the world is collapsing around you. Wouldn't it make more sense to learn how to grow potatoes and train a mule?
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    My books are available at all the usual places.


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867 Comments

Morning, Jim. Great to see that Liam Halligan at The Telegraph and other big finance journalists have all finally caught up with you. You've helped me prepare for the times ahead in concrete (no, not paranoid) ways: By paying off debt, by giving away and selling unnecessary junk, by learning to thrive on about $10 a day (going vegan's the most practical choice we can make for our health, for the planet, for animals, and for this new reality), and by deepening the lasting, satisfying, and TV-free relationships with friends, family, and neighbors we're fortunate to enjoy. The coming reality will only be as ugly as we allow it to be; those of us who're learning to settle down, settle in, love living with less, and who plan to avoid any broader social unrest may very well actually find ourselves happier than we've ever been before. Happy World Vegan Day!

James, society is amiss on many things, but perhaps a positive is that its been 50 years since the tsar bomba
- https://subversesjournal.wordpress.com/

First!

OK, third...

What pecentage of Americans have a clue... Everyone I meet thinks our future will be the same as the past...

Jim. Looking at the BBC news website, the spirit of euphoria has gone by Monday lunchtime. A trillion only covers a day or so now

And MF Global is collapsing as we speak. And what is left of the Madoff family is parading around on TV like the Real Housewives of Ponzi Street.

I am so weary of crummy news. Bring on the Holiday Shopping season. I want a zebra print Snuggy and a Scooby Doo Chia Pet.
Aimlow Joe was here.
www.aimlow.com

What's the worst thing that can happen to Obama between now and the election?

Thanks for the insightful post again today, JHK.

At the expense of repeating myself from two weeks ago, I will reiterate an interview I heard on MSNBC. If only I could remember who was being interviewed!

The question posed was answered: Obama might have to bail out the TBTF banks again.

As if the many $Trillions were not already given over to the international banking system already...and where did it get us?--Oh yeah, no regulations and no Glass Steagall...Hey let's be the wild wild west of the financial world and the Europeans sure stepped into that one.

With no quid pro quo on lending, helping with other Obama agendas like job creation and keeping the stimulus package money in the US only, we are back to only thing this economy can do--blow more bubbles.

They should all take a good look at Iceland and follow suit.

This next time around should be a doozie! Say goodbye to social safety nets.

CLUSTERFUCK DAY could well be Friday 11/11/11.

You have been warned.

time to get our own house in order
heathy body
clear mind
http://wanderingsagewisdom.blogspot.com

so !!!!!! Money might out of style anyway ... yippee.

Jack

It's the morning after the night before. Now we get to discover what that beauty you met at the bar really looks like. So it goes with thje so-called economy.

"...those of us who're learning to settle down, settle in, love living with less, and who plan to avoid any broader social unrest..."

Good luck with that.

Nice one, Mr. Jim!
POW, right in the kisser...

Reality can be not-so-nice; especially to a "culture" steeped in bullshittery (tm MyrtleMay) and commercial enterprise. Mmmmm, let's just call it fraud and be done wid'dit.

(I must agree with the first poster; your writings have helped me to "get my mind right" and live more simply, just to begin with.)

SO… those of us with $100 bills stuffed in buried coffee cans should dig them up and start spending that soon-to-be-worthless paper on some useful things (Large quantities of toilet paper, condoms, liquor, narcotics)? Or wait until deflation makes it all less expensive?

What I posted this morn' to the last thread, goes to your vision of economic legerdemain... Hey, they're "fixing" everything! Isn't that being widely "communicated"? Fer goo'ness sake; get your investment-vehicles invested now, before there's nothing left to invest in, Investors.
*****************

Mr. Orlov has [quite humbly] revised his prognostication of collapse mode. (Not "if", but "how".)
It's a lot worse than he originally envisioned. Unfortunately, it reinforces my innate paranoia that's it's all a nefarious plan and plot. This is how "They" want it; not a controlled and well-considered contraction, but sudden, irreversible collapse that will ensure lots of folks dying/getting killed. With all the extending and pretending going on, how can I "rationally" think that we aren't being purposefully bullshitted? And to what ends; who benefits?

Happy Halloween! (Have them cute little trick-or-treaters use the snow shovel you've conveniently left at the end of the walk to shovel their way to your doorstep. C'mon, they're young, it won't hurt 'em to work for that candy. 20 inches of wet snow will be easy labor if they work in shifts. ;o)

Technology will save us....even I was hoping for a little bit. There is a wind farm about 5 miles from my home. I had hoped that with all the smart people living in the area, maybe they can keep them turning and keep our lights on. A representative from the wind farm was at a dinner meeting I attended last week and he explained how they use a lot of oil.....at the top. Maybe that's not going to work out so well after all.

Oh well, our young hens have picked up the pace on laying and we got two more tomatoes from the garden. Probably the last two for the year.

Everybody take care.

Farm ground in these parts at 7-10k per acre seems to be the new "hedge". Just brought in the cushaw squash, 30# of pure eating dee-light, sweet or savory, pie like to die for.

"CLUSTERFUCK DAY could well be Friday 11/11/11"

Nonsense. That day is officially Nigel Tufnel Day: http://nigeltufnelday.tumblr.com/

I don't think Spın̈al Tap did a cover of "Nowhere to Run, Nowhere to Hide," did they?

Bring on the "creamy shopgirls" of Sweden! Our doofus-American shops have land-whales or Bettie-Page wannabes "painted like cannibals," if I may use a Kunstlerism.

I'm ready to move right now. Jim, you should have claimed diplomatic asylum and stayed put.

I was hoping to hear some more about the Swedish super models...

zone, i for one think you re right, but i believe it is a function of "they" have a tiger by the tail which was a cute little kitty just a century ago: and hanging onto that tail is the safest place to be, all the way up to the point "they" get whip-cracked around into "our" mouth...so you can see why the reluctance to try to have a dialog at this late date...? and as for the kids & the candy, how can you possibly make them work commensurate with the reward?! wherever will our next generation of investment banksters come from?! (tongue FIRMLY in cheek!)

...I'm sure there's "an app for that". (At the very least, a big bagful of websites.) ;o)

Funny how Peak Oil has become a financial event. There is so much opportunity in this that it boggles the mind. All the old paradigms are nearly kaput that I dont even think Uzbekistan like despotism can stave off the complete collapse of Materialism.

A little off subject but just got stopped by the Homeland Gestapo while fishing in my little boat.I thought a police state was coming but now realize it's already arrived.Came across my stern and almost cut my lines.Came along side and two of the four men in black boarded without hailing my vessel or even flashing lights.They didn't ask permission to board or search the cabin. they stayed on board for over half an hour and we were definitely guilty until proven innocent.Their boat had 4. 250 hp engines and burns 100 gallons of gas an hour.
Theyreally showed me. I'm 62 and my record consists of 2 speeding tickets over those years. Nice going Homeland security. The terrorists have definitely won.

Ahhhhh. I get you.
By mistake, the last "best option" available, eh?
A bit dangerous to be having a "dialogue" with those who'd like to have you for lunch? ...Literally.

(LOL on the future bankers; good one!)

Not funny; not co-incidental.
Read your Orlov, Kunstler, and Ruppert.
Get wid da program... faster.

lots of " communicating " went on during the 1930's .

" Brother can you spare a dime ? "

lol

JFK, the "slum airport" is owned and operated by the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, a bi-state agency. The PA operates Kennedy, Laguardia, Newark and Teterboro airports. In addition it operates the PATH trains, Lincoln and Holland tunnels and the George Washington Bridge among others. The PA takes in BILLIONS of dollars a year in tolls and landing fees. You would think they could construct and maintain a world class airport, but no....for two reasons: The PA is run like something out of a third world country. Most of the PA's revenue is spent on salaries of PA employees and not capital improvement projects. Example: The PA has its own police force. PA cops are some of the highest paid law enforcement agents in the US. It's common for PA cops to retire in their forties with 6 figure pensions. Second, the 1% don't use Kennedy, Newark or Laguardia. Those airports are for the cattle. The 1% are flow into the NYC area on private jets to Teterboro airport just across the Hudson in New Jersey where they transfer to armor plated limos or helicopters for the final leg into Manhattan. Teterboro is operated with public funds as private airport for the rich and important. So what incentive does the PA have to spruce up Kennedy?

well, not quite by mistake so much as got greedy and held on past the point of no return...i mean just because everyone was doing it (j pierpont, vanderbilt, et al) didn t mean that a rational assessment of the factors involved (finite resources, inevitable awareness of & by the masses/slaves) wouldn t have provided warning; greed for the sake of instant gratification seems to be a powerful blinder...

Its pretty dismal to think of the entire world as broke and broken. If Europe’s banks fall, I don’t see the US having the stomach to bail them out. We’ve already bailed out our own TBTF banks and then seen the CEOs all reward themselves with billions in bonuses (of our money for their failure). Sickening. So what to do about Europe? More importantly, should we do anything about Europe? Will trading goods and services become more popular than plain old cash? Will all our investments, houses, savings, insurance policies suddenly become worthless overnight? Millions of Americans saw their investments plunge in 2008 with fall-out that has resulted in foreclosed homes, high unemployment and the Occupy Wall Street kids marching endlessly in protest.

Some seem to think if we can just cut enough “social” services, we can get the debt under control. But which social services get hit – Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid, public schools, park systems, infrastructure, the military, the police, defense contracting, FEMA? Do we really want to give up any of those things? I know I don’t. Some seem to think if we just raise taxes on the top 1% (the ones whose revenues increased 275% over the last 30 years according to a recent Wall Street Journal article), we could pay down the debt. I certainly have no problem with that idea but can we get our paid-off Congress to go along with that? Tax the rich an additional ½ of 1% and re-invest the money in our country? Doesn’t seem likely unless a whole lot of Tea Party phonies go down in 2012. Then we could put every corporation on trial and if the jury found them guilty, put them in jail, re-organize their companies and put Americans back to work. That wouldn’t be socialism, that would actually be justice.

Are we smart enough to survive these times? Or are we just future peasants who will scrape out a living tilling the soil with primitive hand tools while waiting for some bigger nasty to take everything away from us? Cooperative farming v. hordes of thieves, rapists and murderers. Looks like our choice is to either fight common criminals or corporate criminals if we wish to survive in the future.

Maybe training a mule would be easier than retraining the people who gave us the 'global economy' and mortgage backed securities. I didn't realize that Gordon Gekko was a real person until the last three or four years.

I've noticed more and more in recent years how you don't really see the "business elite" that much in airports any longer. I keep looking for them. I even try to look like them because for some stupid reason I like to dress up as European travelers often do.

What do I see in airports? Either harried Dilberts in bad suits or those JHK labels as thugs.

Depressing on two counts: the romance of air travel is long gone and the elegant people are those 1% of travelers on those private planes and armored helicopters.

As you've said before, were at peak delusion....with a touch of Bi-Polar....on medication... so no ups and downs just and infinite sideways....

The complete100 percent will have to make some sacrifice to help make things better. Right now 100 percent do not want anything in their piece of the pie to change. But it is coming whether we want it or not. It will go better if everyone accepts a cut.

So thoroughly happy to have settled in an agricultural area in Costa Rica. Things are far from perfect, but we never freeze, plenty of water and the neighbors never forgot to grow food, raise livestock and kick back at times.

Still looking for a few good men, women, families and friends...

www.puebloverde.org

Why don't you ask Wolfbay if he thinks that cutting Homeland Security and FEMA is a bad idea?

The military and defense contractors? Social services? Are you f....ing kidding me? They are the insurance that the 1% is paying for to protect them from us. As Jay Gould said, "I can hire one half of the working class to kill the other half". Nothing has changed, except for the firepower.

Of course we can't pay down the debt. The 1% have put the rest of us into stratoscopic debt bondage. It is unpayable.

Therefore, we do a Nixon, and declare that the US is no longer on the bank standard.

The US government issues greenbacks to pay for necessary public workers, and gives an income floor to the rest of Americans, enabling us to have enough to live a modest lifestyle.

Any entrepeneurs then have the ability to use the magic of the marketplace to invent and innovate, while the rest of us muddle along in a poor, but happy state.

We are stricken by no plague of locusts, as FDR said. We are stricken by zombie bankers, and continuing to live within their frame will lead to the kind of breakdown and misery suffered by so many other people on this planet in the last 30 years especially.

"if investors really require higher interest rates to buy this stuff, the governments issuing the bonds will all choke to death on the interest payments" - and on Friday Italy paid higher interest on its new bonds than before the "solution" was arrived at.

Critical thinking is dangerous, that is why it is no longer taught in our schools - just pass the test kids.

As fake as the money scene is it is no more fake than the label "developing nation". The so called aren't developing at all, but simply manifesting the consequence of imbalance between population and sustainable resources. The whole notion that the overpopulated countries would "develop" was fueled by the same illogical presumptions that has been propping up the funny money global economy. It’s all BS, just as is the dreamy notion that the now seven billion people can all coalesce into one harmony of humanity, willingly redistributing across the planet to form a “leveling”, all becoming fed, sheltered and clothed without cultural/political clash over notions of class, religion, ethnicity, religious beliefs, etc., etc. America’s chance for reaching sustainability is being crushed by continuing immigration from Third World nations and the high birth rate among them.

"So what incentive does the PA have to spruce up Kennedy?"

This is probably a rhetorical question, BUT

how about those long, lost values of self-esteem, the exercise of competence, honor, empathy, generosity, beauty and cleanliness for its own sake.

Gasoline usage plummeted -9.2% YoY, at 8501 M gallons vs. 9358 M a year ago.
------------------------------------------
This is a big decline, the largest in at least 4 years. Could be just a blip, or it could be an indication that people are permanently changing their consumption pattern.

In either case, I've tried to make the point here a few times that gasoline consumption can be much more elastic than many who champion the PO model are willing to entertain. This might be an indication this is happening....it could also mean we are moving into a recession...or it could mean a one week number of limited value. That's economics, just watch the trend, don't jump on any bandwagons.

I'm assuming you are not the Dr. Doom of Hawaii...??


Here's the scenario:

Debt in debt Deniece uses her debit card to buy donuts and then wonders why she's depressed and is doughy.

Deniece has just spent an extra .25 cents to buy $2 worth of donuts. Hundreds of billions are handed to predatory banks by people paying for the privilege of spending their own money through swipe fees.

Patriots spend cash that they get out of a non-profit credit union where they park their money.

I've traveled to CR a couple of times....if it weren't for the lack of adequate roads and my concern for safety, I would give it a thought. Can you explain why even the poorest people, who seem to have nothing to lose, have walls and razor wire around their little shacks? Seems a rather telling indication of the lack of 'rule of law' to me.

the last bubble possible is a bond/liquidity bubble and this be it bubba......no wiggling this time. we are looking a 500 years of dark ages when the lights go out......

Cavepainter: thought that you would like this:

This is a list of all countries and dependent territories by total fertility rate (TFR): the expected number of children born per woman in her child-bearing years.

1 Niger 7.68
2 Uganda 6.73
3 Mali 6.54
4 Somalia 6.44
5 Burundi 6.25
6 Burkina Faso 6.21
7 DR Congo 6.11
8 Ethiopia 6.07
9 Zambia 6.07
10 Angola 6.05
11 Republic of the Congo 5.77
12 Malawi 5.51
13 Afghanistan 5.50
14 Benin 5.40
15 Mayotte (France) 5.40
16 Liberia 5.24
17 Sao Tome and Principe 5.21
18 Chad 5.18
19 Guinea 5.15
20 Mozambique 5.13
21 Madagascar 5.09
22 Equatorial Guinea 5.00
23 Rwanda 4.99
24 Sierra Leone 4.97
25 The Gambia 4.96
26 Sudan 4.93

No disrespect but vegan? 'Most practical choice we can make?' Really? No matter WHAT you eat something has to die for you to live. Unless you have another planet up your sleeve there isn't enough of ANYTHING to feed all 7 billion of us w/o a lot cheap fossil fuel inputs.

Reminds me of my favorite t-shirt that depicts Rodin's The Thinker with words that read "I think therefore I am dangerous". As long as the majority of the population is not engaged in any sort of critical thinking (they're not) or even have the ability to (they don't), we will continue to be slaves.

please someone provide links to Orlov & Ruppert
thanks

Thanks for your blog Jim - never miss a week
I read the guys in Finance at the Telegraph every day - sanest people I know of.

good luck to all

Exactly - which is why the Founding Fathers hated Democracy or rule by the Mob, exactly what the Occupy Wall St Movement is all about. Real American values are about the Aristocracy of Merit to use Jefferson's term. By no means should all Americans be allowed to vote. They must be property owners and show a knowledge of our history and politics. The property requirement could be waived if they were gainfully employed and had a record of service - in other word, some skin in the game, not just grousers, layabouts, malcontents, traitors, Marxists, etc.

Needless to say a good working knowledge of English both spoken and written. Why would any decent immigrant even want to vote until they could do these? By what moral right?

Bravo Dale. Survival Experts like John Rawls impore Ex-Pats to come home. The gringos are going to get their throats cut in many areas. White South America like Argentina, Uruguay, parts of Brazil may be alright. Costa Rica is iffy - Americans are liked but kept at a distance. Maybe the abundance of food will be a safeguard and of course friends among the Ticos themselves.

Happy Halloween to all CFNers

I for one will be dressed as if I lived in a first world super power nation-state.

Is suspended animation possible yet? Maybe we could lock oursleves in and pull the hole in after us. Just sleep for a century and see if it's over and everyone is dead yet. Go back to sleep if it's still going on.

According the Left, if Whites vote for Herman Cain it's just more proof of their racism. Voting for a Black is just as racist as voting for a White. Why does anyone listen to these lunatics?

Speaking as a Racist, I would prefer a decent Black to a White version of Obama. After all, you're not American just because you're born here. White Marxists aren't American anymore than Obama is. It's a matter of head and heart not geography. Our Universities specialize in corrupting youth. And stupid American alumni continue to support them. Football is what matters not curriculum. Look at the kind of teachers they have at Duke University where the Professors tried to railroad three innocent White Guys into the living hell of the American Prison System. Did the Alumni wake up or are they still sending the checks?

Whenever I raise the population issue it's like I walked into the room with something nasty on both shoes. Oh yea that again, well as soon as all those breeding masses are raised up out of poverty the birth rates will be much lower. Uh huh, good luck with that, anyone who cares to do the math can see that ain't gonna work even if it could happen which is obviously a monumental deception. This population thing is really the true insoluble problem. We are rapidly coming up on limits about which we have no clue how to resolve. And the fact that the "developed" countries generally have flat to negative reproduction rates is irrelevant, we are an increasingly small fraction of global population. Happy Halloween.

Vlad, you're a smart dude but you are confusing Niger with Nigeria. Nigeria isn't even on the list.

almost 500 lbs of precious metals and 100 lbs bags of rice,beans,lots of pasta,a newwork of like minded folks buys some insurance..but if they deploy the nukes as a diversion all bets are off..a melt down of the banks means the movement of food stops-the truckers will go home-good luck...

hmm i ve figured for some time that the only actually precious metal is usually measured in rounds...

Had to laugh at this comment where its author wondered "what to do with Europe" and whether "we" should do anything. Excuse me, but weren't you guys on the brink of bankruptcy just a couple of months ago, with federal workers wondering if they would get paid or not? Doesn't look like the USA is in a position to bail itself out, let alone Europe.

One more thing: wasn't it the shifty machinations of the US power brokers who led off the entire 2008 collapse of the world markets? Hmm?

Thanks USA, but you've done quite enough already.

Hello James Howard Kunstler,

Regarding your last sentence in the above article. I substitute "the governments of the world" for "train a mule" and I come to the conclusion that most if not all of the governments need positive feedback reinforcement. Hitting them with the "stupid stick" until they get to stupid on the intelligence scale. They are starting from total brain death so the task is daunting if not impossible. As for growing potatoes our diet requires much more than spuds. What would happen if we had another potato crop failure similar to the Great Irish Famine in the 19th century on a world wide basis?

MEMO TO VLAD AND ALL THE NUTBARS:

This may be a shock so sit down, dudes. Has it ever occurred to any of you that maybe white skinned people aren't superior after all? That maybe we've had our turn to run things and now it's over? That maybe the Other Ones get a chance now? Ever think about that?

I'm giving you all the benefit of the doubt in assuming you can think, at least a little. So go away to a quiet place and really think about these questions for awhile. Then let us know how it turned out.

Only a high tech future can allow for the possibility of producing an adequate synthetic diet for all. Tang came from the space program! Some minerals can be gotten by eating dirt but be careful.

I know. I added it. That sometimes happens in conversations. I don't say Niger or Nigardly. Blacks can't tell the difference.

Nigeria might have a lower rate than many of these other countries but I'm sure it is well above replacement. And it is so much larger than these others.

"This is a big decline, the largest in at least 4 years. Could be just a blip, or it could be an indication that people are permanently changing their consumption pattern."

That would indicate some sort of mass enlightenment.

Bwahahahaha!!!! No, I'm going to go with the resource depletion hypothesis...

Since you mentioned the Great Potato Famine of the 1840's let me share with you what I learned when I checked into that years ago.

(A bunch of starving, sick Irish folks were dumped off a ship by its captain and onto our beautiful beach on the north side of Lake Ontario then, and their settlement around our area still irritates the Scots, who got here first).

Apparently before the famine there'd been a population boom in Ireland and it was due to the rapid spread of the potato that had been brought back to the UK from North America, and buttermilk from local cows. Between them, they apparently supplied all the nutrients needed to grow lots of Irish people. When the potato crops got that nasty fungus the hungry also got cholera, and many of them died in steerage on ships on their way here if not at home.

Gotta love history, it kind of proves just how unfair life really can be, not to mention how cheap and utterly dispensible.

No because Africa is returning to the stone age except in the places the Chinese are taking over. You're a fool Grouch.

Btw, not that you care, but I've never said Whites are the smartest on average. That goes to the East Asians and Ashkenazis. So what are you talking about? Do you even know?

Yes, Whites are going down - precisely because of traitors like you.

yup ,Charlie,you are right....plenty of rounds and hardware to use them.....

"the last bubble possible is a bond/liquidity bubble and this be it bubba......no wiggling this time. we are looking a 500 years of dark ages when the lights go out......"

I'm always curious as to how these numbers are arrived at. 500 years? Why 500? Will it take that long to get back to a sustainable human population? Or does that just seem like a big scary number to throw around? You could say 50 years and it would be just as useless to most of the people around here.

Yes and all while the Scots and Irish were being ethnically cleansed, English Ladies (your spiritual predecesors) were knitting wool sweaters for the poor Blacks in equatorial Africa.

More ironic: all things Scottish were in vogue at the time, with people trying to prove Scottish Lord ancestry and wearing kilts and what not. Elite Scottish regiments were fighting in the Crimea for Britain instead of for their own people. The reign of Sheep both literal and metaphorical.

To be fair: a few of the Scottish Elite felt responsible and helped their people establish themselves in the new world. And a few of the English did try to help the starving Irish. But most did nothing - a black mark against the British Empire that nothing can erase.

Well, I got the ol' "Held for Review" message this morning. Guess that should make me feel as part of the CF'dN community.
Apparently, it is being held for the following reasons;
1. I did't subscribe to JHK's Blog.
2. I still need to send in the 3 UPC symbols from the back of the last three JHK books I bought.
3. I didn't use enough foul language in my comment.
4. I used too much foul language in my comment.
5. My comment was funnier than Jim's.
6. JHK doesn't like Pink Floyd's "Money" song.

"Bwa" is the influence of Tootsie on you. Acknowledge please.

I'm going to the Permaculture Conference next weekend - your influence on me.

"there isn't enough of ANYTHING to feed all 7 billion of us w/o a lot cheap fossil fuel inputs."

Of course you're right. But just as a warning: it's more of a religion than a decision for these people. Save your wits for adult dialogue. Soybeans will never rehabilitate topsoil like mob-grazed beef does, which is probably the most pressing issue on our plate at the moment, but it's blasphemy to say such things to the moral cadre...

Why, yes, it is so obvious that people with enough food and housing will rip their neighbors to shreds over differences in religion and such.

Like where? The only time religious or cultural differences make people attack each other is when there is material scarity.

Yugoslavia and Iraq, for two examples, lived with their different religions right up until the shit was stirred by the US and hit the fan, to mix two metaphors.

The US has multiple races and religions, and you rarely see people being attacked unless provoked by TPTB, such as after 9-11. And even then, well-fed Americans remained overwhelmingly tolerant.

But, go ahead, stock your ammunnition, so as to self-fulfill your propecy.

Suck on that kernel of hate. Maybe it will nourish you when the shelves are empty.

Grouchy, you are wasting your time on a self-admitted racist and other wing-nuts here. They reason from a conclusion. Let 'em rant. It's a free country, even for haters.

"This may be a shock so sit down, dudes. Has it ever occurred to any of you that maybe white skinned people aren't superior after all?"

Generally speaking, the West had its guns, germs, and steel. And a run of good luck mingled with the Renaissance. Many times I'm thankful for that historical fact. Imagine what might have occurred had a boatload of Aztecs crossed the Ocean to discover that Europe had no resistance to their diseases.

Yet put me in the year 1500, and I'd pick Istanbul over any "Western European" city. Of course you could argue about the Turks' ethnicity. Their ancestors were resourceful, often cruel, horsemen from the Altai Mountains in China. Until they overreached, they were a vigorous and energetic Empire.

Yet racial-based claims make little sense. I'm happy to have been born in the West, while admitting that whites who lynched blacks in the 1930s US seem no better than Hutus murdering Tutsis today. And then there are those wacky Nazis...white folks gone bad. Some paragon of civilized behavior, that lot.

Save your breath, Grouchy Girl, and wait for the inevitable. The number of US racists is declining, as our blood mixes...hurrah.

We'll outlive the lot of these haters :)

DNA is DNA is DNA...humans are going down because of short-sighted idiots like you who don t understand that life is life...you, me, the birds, insects, trees, everything that qualifies as life, are literally, actually, really and truly RELATED...so when you insult your neighbor for being, you insult yourself and all of us...now, dipshit, we all obviously have stupid relatives, but what is the baseline? i ve insulted you, yes, FOR YOUR ACTIONS, and (lack of) mindset...trust me, i ll quit hurling epithets at my brother as soon as you do now please, try to understand my main point without getting distracted by the buzzwords...onward, through the fog, CFN

Actually I got "bwa" from Mean Dovey Cooledge!

But I am thrilled to no end to hear about your permaculture escapades!!

Check this out (just recently published):

http://www.georgiaorganics.org/conference/2012workshops.aspx

Second down the list - "Permaculture in the Deep South"/sponsored by...

My first big gig.

I think your comment got held up because it contained a link with too many forward-slashes...

It happened to me a couple a days ago: two links included, one to a CBS-news story about a new tattooed Barbie doll from Italy, and a second one to the Italian site itself, tokidoki.it

It got held up, so I removed the dot-it link and tried to repost (about an hour later).

Oops. A 403/IP ban followed :-(


BTW, to temporarily deal with such, one may use any of a number of fr33 pr0xy sites (he/she will end up using their IP, not own), but keep in mind your credentials would be visible to such a site should to choose to log in to comment...

...train a mule

First you gotta (know how to) breed'm.

By the way, here is a non-Swede supermodel, who had the temerity to speak the truth about the attack on Libya, and the massive anti-Ghaddafi propaganda used to support mass murder and looting.

Apparently, Forbidden Truths are also not allowed to be spoken in Italy.

http://www.sott.net/articles/show/236937-Italian-supermodel-faces-sacking-for-revealing-truth-about-normal-Gaddafi-family

India now has a birthrate of 52 babies per MINUTE and that's just one example. Nowhere to run, nowhere to hide is right. Can you hear that ticking sound?

"This population thing is really the true insoluble problem. We are rapidly coming up on limits about which we have no clue how to resolve. And the fact that the "developed" countries generally have flat to negative reproduction rates is irrelevant, we are an increasingly small fraction of global population. "

Sure is easy to point fingers at the poor breeders. And yes, they are admittedly a big problem. But no bigger than first world consumption. There's Jevon's Paradox rearing it's ugly head again. Save energy on offspring, spend it on yourself. Americans, with their lovely and nearly flat growth rate, still use 25% of the world's energy and 33% of the natural resources. Entire villages in the third world use less energy than most households in the United States. Not really fair to chide the poor breeders for ruining the party, now is it?

That's why education isn't really a solution for high birth rates. Educated people spend a whole lot more energy on average than poor illiterate breeders.

"The only time religious or cultural differences make people attack each other is when there is material scarity."

I've been wondering about this for a while now. In a region such as mine, do you think it would be prudent to at least go to church? And maybe take the herbal medicine star off of the doorway? I've asked JM Greer the same sort of questions, and he has no qualms about being who he is in the period of history in which he lives. I also am proud to be who I am, but I remain unconvinced that witch hunting couldn't be turned back to in times of desperation. Once that's going we'd be easy to spot in our current MO. I doubt we'll change anything more than our location, but just curious about your thoughts in this regard.

Thanks AK, I'll take your advice.
I hope JHK isn't losing his sense of humor. Once we lose that we're all doomed for sure...

Yeah Smokey, I know. I was really just baiting him to see what would spew from his brain in response. Sometimes I can't stop myself from being mischievous. Must be the Scottish ancestry coming out, that need to stir the pot.

I do agree about the desirability of the entire melting of the races into a lovely shade of beige with a hint of burnt orange. Whether we humans will last long enough for this to happen is unclear. But keep the faith, friend.

Grouchy, you only forget only truth about Racial Supremacists:

Can't live with 'em, can't get them to congregate so we can firebomb them. Darn it.

Worked well in WW II.

The flaw in JHK's economic analysis is forgetting that money is not real. When you are dealing in illusion, there is always a way to keep the rubes in their seats. Yes, the number seem dire. No, the numbers don't add up. Yes, the entire world economy is seemingly hanging by a thread. But the fact is, money is whatever the casino owners say it is, and if they say the blue chips are worth $100 or $10,000...it's their casino, so...if you wanna play, you play by their rules.

The most significant thing about the so-called financial crisis is that it pulled back the curtain on this basic illusion. For one brief moment, the truth was there for all to see: It's all a game. No longer can the rich say there is any intrinsic reason why they lead lives of comfort and the rest of us have to hustle; they don't work harder; they are not "better" than us, or more frugal, or smarter. Not only did the financial crisis reveal that our entire economic system is a game, but it proved, once and for all, that it's a RIGGED game, in which the suckers pay the taxes and the casino owners rake in the cash.

Embarrassing accidents occasionally happen when the House gets too greedy, like when they create new gaming "instruments" like the CDS...but embarrassing or not, all that has to be done is shut down the casino for a few hours, and then - voilá! - open up again under New Management. This is what happened to American banks. The public face was the measly $780 billion bailout. Behind the scenes, the Fed did the real work, and handed out $14 TRILLION to the big banks. Well, why not? If you could pull $14 trillion out of a hat, wouldn't you?

The biggest challenge facing the world's rulers is accustoming people to the next big number after "trillion," because in the next round of failures, the losses are going to be in the...gazillions? Is that what comes after trillion? I'm gonna have to look that up.

Anyway, JHK, never underestimate a magician's ability to maintain an audience's suspension of disbelief. And don't take the sucker's bet that ultimately, there's something called "reality," and it has to be faced. There isn't and it doesn't. Civilization has always been based on sleight of hand.

"I do agree about the desirability of the entire melting of the races into a lovely shade of beige with a hint of burnt orange."

I don't understand why that's a desirable thing. Indifferent maybe, but desirable? In a lower energy future we will not be living as a global community anymore. We will relocalize, rediversify, and new languages will re-evolve. Certain physical traits will be selected for in certain populations. I happen to like thin white girls with reddish hair and freckles, but plenty of people really don't. When we go back to village life I imagine certain traits will rise to the top for each village/region. Even if we make it all the way to the "beige promised land," it will be a short stay. But who cares? Globalization is unsustainable, so anything arising from globalization probably is to. So bye bye boring beige future...hello biodiversity.

there is some interesting research being done re the treatment of socio/psychopathy using electromagnetics applied to the back of the head...perhaps a targeted EMP would suffice...

Good stuff! And true, at least until growth peaked four or five years ago. Now it's more a game of musical chairs. Fortunately for the casino management, most of the patrons haven't got the foggiest notion what game they're playing. That's where you have a decided advantage.

Well, that's the conclusion Prog came to. Remember when he first started commenting, he was questioning his faith? And then he decided he wanted them good ol' Baptist boys watching his behind. And now he baits atheists on this site. Maybe as internet cover, to add to the hometown stuff.

Personally, I couldn't fake Christianity. It would make me throw up, a little, in my mouth.

Besides, you and I are already out there. Too many people know too much about us to be able to get away with hanging a cross on our door, and talking about our personal friend, Jesus.

Screw it! I yam what I yam. And most people I know, Christian or not, right wing or not, are basically decent people. I think it would take a lot to get them to be individually evil.

Good to see you're alive and kicking. Have you ever read Ruskin? Below is one of his most amazing and insightful essays ever written; in fact, by anyone. Ruskin had that rare ability to denigrate and lionize simultaneously, as he did with the Scots in this essay. And no one in our age of mediocrity comes close to him as a writer.

http://www.readbookonline.net/read/2781/11997/

tripp - the 'dark ages' were an economic collapse. the dark ages lasted a lot longer than 50 years.....

OK, lets hope the comment guardians are off buying some more donuts.
I agree with Jim's take on the CDS market. After all look who they we're targeting for selling the trillion euro's worth of toilet-paper bonds to, the Russians and the Chinese. But I'm sure they got one wiff of those bonds and are holding their collective noses as we speak.
Since everyone else in the "Western (Developed) World" are all broke there aren't many other neighborhoods left to canvas.
So the show continues.
As for me, since falling down the rabbit hole a little over a year ago, my more current reading material focuses on farming, soil enhancement and the more basic skills which are largely unknown to a poor ol' city dweller.
I'll tell you it was a lot easier going through life not knowing about this stuff; peak oil, CDS's, CDO's, all a lot of B.S. to me...
Welcome to our new reality!

that reminds me: if you see a tank roll up with what looks like a radar dish instead of a turret, GTFO, that s a VERY painful form of crowd control: makes pepper spray seem like perfume- the record time endured is something like 7-10 seconds; avg is more like 2.5 sec...trust me on this, CF'dN (thanks to liquid lenny for that one- permission to keep using it?)

Bwahahahaha!!!! No, I'm going to go with the resource depletion hypothesis...
--------------------------------------
Tripp, you're already so over invested you have no choice.

we have about 10,000 years of recorded human history and there we only 'white' people for about the latest 4000 years.....most of the killing and war and bs humans do to each other was done by dark skin people to dark skin people. jews were black and jesus was black....dna is dna....humans will kill regardless of skin color. when the SHTF humans will kill humans.....racism wont exist when it is a free for all.

Wouldn't it make more sense to learn how to grow potatoes and train a mule?

As long as there is a new fool to squeeze the bulge in the global economy inner tube as it moves along from the last patch job it may be a good idea to learn to grow potatoes but almost nobody will. Magical thinking will prevail.

Thinking that technology can't save us hurts too much. Magical thinking also helps here. Wishing really hard to 'make it so'. Changing reality from inside your head with magic feels so much better. No help to those who understand technology but they are as few and as far between as new potatoes farmers.

Delusional thinking is of great comfort and value to many. Who can really say that such a strong and forceful form of solace to so many is all bad?

One has to be smarter than the mule to train it.

"Connection has become a pointless end in itself. It's what you do when the world is collapsing around you. Wouldn't it make more sense to learn how to grow potatoes and train a mule?"

Same thing I've been thinking every time I hear these yuppies giggling over Twitter and Facebook. Lord help us, though I'm not religious.

So the powerful right wing conspiracy to deny climate change, buy off politicians and pass more tax breaks for the already rich was .... true? Golly gosh.

Can we now sue the Koch-suckers for deliberately and fraudulently retarding the discussion? For delaying and obscuring what needs to be done about it? No? Well one result of that might be seeing simultaneous mass protests in a thousand cities. Who knows where that might lead.

Note to Tea Partyers: You have been tricked by the 1% into defending their interests. You have been watching the wrong Fox, as it turns out.

...What if it's all a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?

India may be the first [and last?] nation with 2 billion people....more than were on all earth a century or 2 ago...
And more of the and Pakis [Paki was India 70 years ago] are here.....many illegally.

VLAD
I WAS AT PRISON PLANET…THERE WAS SOMETHING ABOUT
MICHAEL MOORE IS A USEFUL IDIOT AND PART OF THE 1%
RAHMBOS BROTHER ARI IS MOORES AGENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

HERE: FROM OCCIDENTAL OR ONE OF THOSE SITES

Mel because he made a film about Jesus Christ, and they despise Jesus Christ.
That’s why they put him through hell back in 2003 and 2004, calling him all sort of vile names, accusing him of all kinds of despicable motives and schemes, sending cops out to screen the movie for hate crime violations, using elected officials to intimidate studios into not touching the movie, and demanding that the US Attorney General lock Mel up for making the movie.
These are the people who run Hollywood, New York and DC.
They hate you, Ari Emanuel is scum.
He’s not worthy to even be in the same room as Mel Gibson.

His father was a terrorist. He was part of the terrorist group that blew up a hotel killing 91 people...
But because some terrorists are more equal than others, he was allowed into the United States where he became a doctor, and his wife became a “civil rights activist.” His son now heads up the most powerful agency in Hollywood, and one of his other sons, Rahm, is the de facto president who gives orders to the figurehead Barack Obama.
But scum like the Emanuel’s are in charge now.
They make up the DC-New York-Hollywood axis of evil, and what they’re doing to Mel Gibson is just a little taste of what they’ve got planned for the rest of us.
If you want to know their ultimate plans, just read an account of the Communist Revolution in Russia back in the early 20th century, which was orchestrated by people just like Ari and Rahm Emanuel and their terrorist father and “civil rights activist” mother. .....................

yes but this month we are 7 billion..yes?

...What if it's all a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?
-----------------------------------------
Maybe your idea of a better world and mine aren't exactly the same. So whoose idea do we go with? I think the world is going to be what it will be, whatever either of us might have in mind in terms of micro-engineering.

That's why education isn't really a solution for high birth rates. Educated people spend a whole lot more energy on average than poor illiterate breeders.
-----------------------------------------
I agree completely with that first sentence. We can't all be "knowledge workers", or whatever. But that last sentence betrays a flaw in your thinking. If you have too little energy, then there are two possible solutions; use less, or get more (or some combination of the two). Doomers too often speak of the problem as if there was only the second option.

This is "magical thinking", not just without the magic, but without the thinking.

I am with you, tripp, let us promote biodiversity. Viva la difference. The Lord loves variety. Maybe, if we have enough different hair and skin tones and colors and slightly different shapes and sizes, there won’t be as much of a drive to ink pictures on and poke holes in ourbodies in order to create an exotic appearance. Sameness is boring, while diversity makes for a richer life experience.

Well I went to an intro class this weekend and started falling in love with the presenter. She was a very feminine and vivacious - the kind that men love and women hate. Such lability! She went to ecstasy when talking about apple trees. And again when I answered her question about what chickens were good for. As pets? Yes! she answered clutching herself. For companionship! I think she liked me too but she's married. But it was nice since I hate most women and they hate me. They want to become like hens without roosters, laying the unfertilized eggs of diversity speak and bureacracy. Women fit into this anthill of a society, men don't. Is it not significant than the worker insects are neuteured females?

The spiritual: she told us about zones 1,2,3, and 4 and asked what is our 0. She said we "should go woo woo with this stuff if we could". She has no idea of how woo woo I can be.

The Law is Like unto Like. Or do you think that you're no more than a bug? You said it not me. Go fuck a catepillar.

Why not nourish diversity? Why do you value it everywhere in nature but not in people? Bemoan the loss of different kinds of pear trees but for Whites nothing? Mourn the dying Tibetan People but for the dying White Race nothing? It's hypocritical and if you are White, Sick. You see it's natural for People to love their own more or at least first. Like unto Like. You have no problem with this when other races express it - and they do. If you haven't noticed, you aint watching.

Everybody looking the same? And that's diversity right? Even aestheticaly you're a bummer. Totally lacking in taste. Plastic.

Read some Flannery O'Connor. She takes on self righteous, know it all, foolish old women like you.

Of course it's not fair but the problem remains and as the LDCs buy into our game it gets immeasurably worse.

"Delusional thinking is of great comfort and value to many. Who can really say that such a strong and forceful form of solace to so many is all bad?"

Is this the "ignorance is bliss" idea? I do, however, think you are right that delusional thinking is not all bad. That short-lived solace feels pretty good. It is the suffering that results results from it that is not so good.

I'm not surprised. Moore is a famous hypocrite who would check into a poor motel to interview with reporters and then go back to the four star hotel where he was really staying at.

When Mel left his wife and set up with the starlet they let him give out an award at the Emmy's or the Oscar's. By leaving his wife and committing adultery, he vindicated himself with those people far more than he could ever do by apologizing and groveling. I have no idea what his self image could be now. Still into the radical Catholicism of his Father, Hutter? How could he be?

He's a very gifted but obviously tormented man. His own worst enemy. But very likeable with a good core. Some people like Jodie Foster have taken serious heat for not turning their backs on him.

Exactly. The Holocaust is largely a projection of what you people want to do to Whites who don't hate themselves the way you do.

Empirestatebuilding always signs off with "Aimlow Joe was here". I have been meaning to ask this for some time now.
Why aim low?

Have you read reviews at Amazon for 'Into the Cannibals Pot'?
South Africa commemorated the help it got from Jews....with some stamps..
The author condemns herself [jewish and work for anti apartheid] for whats now happening..
I tried to cut n paste but got the '403ban' several times...had to go to another computer to post this.

A terrorists son in the White House and the other son trying to control media!
hahaha
no one else here cares!

Vlad - the 403 ban is permanent. Try to get a new IP address from your ISP or use a pr0xy. See above and last week.

I think the whole deal where the governments cover the banks and then the banks cover the governments is just one big circle jerk. The Fed gives out ultra-low interest loans to the banks. The banks then use these monies to purchase government bonds. Does this make any sense whatsoever? Not to me, but maybe I'm just dumb.

It was a historical event. Reactionaries like yourself seem to want and spin it to fit some agenda, but it is what it is.

You ever read Naomi Klein's book Disaster Capitalism? That's pretty much exactly what it talks about...

"But it was nice since I hate most women and they hate me."

Why do I find myself completely unsurprised by this revelation?

wolfbay what was the explanation? where is the lake?

That is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. If I made a movie about the Untouchables in India, does that mean I have to live on the street with them in a puddle of filth? You're ridiculous.

Could you possibly fit any more stupidity into that post? Of course, there have been 'white' people for far more than 4000 years.

Sad times when you've got to bolt down the trash can before somebody tries to steal that. Good grief.

And yet another moron on the internet...

"You ever read Naomi Klein's book Disaster Capitalism?" -Turk

Believe it or no, I haven't!
Lots of recommendations, so I'll have to try and fit it into the flow. Why doesn't somebody invent some more time? That would be helpful (to me, at least). ;o)

Hi Jim and all the gang
Cheesemoose, yup you are correct, the financial world is an illusion. Trillions of dollars?, they don't exist, except in a computer data base. Banks create this socalled money by making an entry into the computer, the catch is they want to be paid back interest on this newly made accounting entry, that interest comes out of people's productive labor for which they are paid. See what a gravy train this is for all those "hardworking bankers" . Of course they are gonna fight tooth and nail to continue this little charade. Poor old Lloyd Blankfein and Jamie Diamond don't want to actually get their hands dirty growing potatoes or building a house. Don't be silly. So of course we will see no change until the population gets tired of the scam and says enough. Until then we muddle along and try to stay afloat as best we can. But rest assured, no, money really doesn't exist, it is only an expression of productive activity in order to procure things we don't actually produce for ourselves.
Europe and the US will have to reset their financial sectors so they are more in line with actual productive activity, currently the financial sector is not based on actual productive activity. The FED coughed up 14 trillion dollars? Nope, they just made a few computer entries completely unrelated to any productive activity. So the old saying" debt that can't be paid won't be paid " comes into play.

Well take care clusterfuckers things are getting very interesting
loveday

"this little charade"

Au contraire mon frier, it is the one Big Charade.

Well, the capsule summary is that high level capitalists foment and use disasters at the nation level in order to push their agendas, basically all at once. The formula is typically to cut social programs, open financial markets, remove price controls, and sell off public property, among other swift changes. This creates a shock effect that basically makes people numb and accepting to a lot of change all at once. It is like the psychological effect of brainwashing or breaking someone down and then implanting new thought or behavioral patterns. Interesting analogy she makes and then covers a bunch of different situations and countries, like Iraq, South Africa, Russaia, etc. Definitely worth a read though it is really depressing, so I stick to about one chapter at a time.

uh oh uh uh oh Oh OH! Aaaaahh!! oh buggy! ok, vlad, i m done...now, where were we? oh yeah, you were trying to argue somehow FOR racism by promoting diversity...huh...gotta admit, that s a new one on me! i think, though, that you missed my core precept, namely that if we humans can look past our (skin-deep) differences, and include the rest of the life-forms in our calculations of worth then we might get down to the business of thriving in balance rather than just using everything up in a mad dash toward extinction of the whole system

Sorry, theatrical gestures of redemption will not change nature’s calculus. 20th century scientific inputs and interventions delivered to a global population living by creeds and beliefs unyielding to scientific methods, analytical inquiry and critical thought has resulted in human population beyond what is sustainable.

Yeah sure, all abstracts of justice/injustice are shot to hell; survival will be more a matter of coincidence – that is, happening to be living where population/resource ratio is still near balance and the general population is educated to 21st Century grasp of reality.

Otherwise, you’re shit out of luck. Essentially, it has nothing to do with who gained and who lost in the past. What counts to survival now is whether or not those in the places of “balance” will preserve it against the inevitable tsunamis of people wanting to migrate away from the already overstressed areas.

So,….if America doesn’t wake up very soon we will have pissed away our chance of survival to a bunch of dreamy notions that the globe's total billions can all be saved by reverse engineering all cultures, ethnicities, races, (beliefs, really) into one harmonious, perfectly blended skin-tone whole. Uh-huh!!

I thought there might be some comments on yet another freak storm courtesy of Climate Change madness here in the NYC area. Namely a dumping of
a foot of snow before Halloween something totally unheard of in my life in the Northeast.
Here in New Jersey,trees, amazingly still GREEN from
the globally warmed Autumn, just could not stand under a foot of wet snow. They are supposed to have lost their leaves when that much snow falls!
This is following horrific rains which a local climatologist said were the summary to a 1 in 1000 year rainfall for Northern New Jersey, following of
course Hurricane Irene which led to 3 foot floods
in Denville, again never seen in history.
Yet the neoliberal Gov Cuomo of New York supported by the Obama Administration wants to fast track 4 new highway lanes with absolutely no Rail option to rebuild the Tappan Zee Bridge with
138,000 vehicles per day. As if that will resolve congestion or save oil, greenhouse emissions or the other toxins of our auto addiction. Oh, and surely James would love this-
NASCAR racing for Weehawken!! HOORAY!!
The OWSers might want to take note that Gov Cuomo is opposing a renewal of the existing NY State
Millionaires tax...

The elite just truly does not get it...
Our former Goldman Sachs Gov Corzine just had his major venture in Euro securities go bankrupt...

Again, the elite has major tunnel vision...

"Meanwhile, more than a few banks find that they are catastrophically short of real funds."

And every dollar that some unemployed soul draws from their accounts decreases the artificial status of the Ponzi organization by $10--before the effect of calling in loans, etc.

People don't get that collapse is exponential squared. As Albert Bartlett famously warned: "The greatest shortcoming of the human race is the inability to understand the exponential function."

What he failed to warn about was: the exponential function in decay mode within the context of fractional reserve banking: The collapse will be violent; like a nuclear explosion; there will not be time to duck, much less by pork and beans and ammo.

buy

The "elite" can't get it, as they are sociopaths--at best; psychopaths, more likely.

Can anyone really ever train a mule? I've never attempted. I do know how to grow potatoes though and have shared some potato (and other crop) growing tips on my blog. If we're going do go down, we may as well go down with homemade vodka.

BTW- I've never had a problem with my blog loading slowly or not displaying the number of hits until I blogged about bank transfer day this week. I called out a couple of TBTF banks that I have been personally screwed by and which were partly the motivation for my joining a credit union. Thanks BOA and US Bank!

Anyway, I blogged about it, and the next day the site began behaving strangely. I doubt it's a coincidence. Anyone else had this happen?

See it (and comment) at http://eighthacrefarm.blogspot.com/2011/10/remember-fifth-of-november.html

Just a quick update on the Europe bailout situation. Apparently the Greek Prime Minister has said he will put the bailout question to a public referendum, WOW and double WOW. I smell fear, I guess the Greek pols just couldn't take it any longer, all those angry, striking citizens giving them the stink eye. Good for Greece, I hope they continue in the footsteps of Iceland and give the banksters the finger.

Break out the popcorn this is getting very interesting.
loveday

Just a couple of things.
Visited Saratoga 2 weeks ago for a conference, yes there was an Occupy Saratoga event. Really enjoyed the town, loved the park and the small town feeling although its really a small city.
For those of you who wrote #OWS would be over by the World Series, you forgot to say what year.
The occupation is amazing. Coordination of many groups and different protests each week, trips to DC, mobilizations, a carnival like atmosphere at Liberty Square and people from all walks of life realizing that the 99% have nothing to lose but our chains and the love handles around our waists.
OWS might hibernate somewhat this winter but in the Spring the netwrok will be laid, the economy will still be tanking, the primaries will be happening and this country will have a political season for the record books.
God bless
Deacon John

Nice post, JHK, and welcome back to the States.

"Wretched refuse yearning to be free," the poem at the statue of liberty's base declares. How prophetic. Nobody in baggage claim understood the sentence, "Which carousel does the luggage from BA 4872 come to?" Quien sabe? Vem vet? Kim bilar? 谁知道? Ποιος ξέρει?"
-James Howard Kunstler-

Yeah, no doubt. And getting worse at the rate of 1,000,000 LEGAL immigrants every year.

What insanity continues US immigration policy at this unsustainable level - into a country with intractable unemployment and a world closing in on "peak everything?"

Cavepainter nailed it perfectly:
"It’s all BS, just as is the dreamy notion that the now seven billion people can all coalesce into one harmony of humanity, willingly redistributing across the planet to form a “leveling”, all becoming fed, sheltered and clothed without cultural/political clash over notions of class, religion, ethnicity, religious beliefs, etc., etc. America’s chance for reaching sustainability is being crushed by continuing immigration from Third World nations and the high birth rate among them."

We're not a stupid people. But we are prisoner to stupid policies - mostly formented by our Grow, Grow, Grow American Capitalists -

In an unholy alliance with the Catholic Church, La Raza and similar organizations, and the ACLU and similar organizations.

Stupid powers that be -
likely going to be the death of all of us.

Vlad and Wage -
I'll try to get back to you tomorrow, sometime.
-Prog-

Fellow Cfn'ers, I urge each and everyone of you to join in solidarity with our brothers and sisters in Oakland by not going to work and NOT purchasing ANYTHING on Wednesday, November 2nd.

Listen, if you will, to Karl Denninger's blogcast from today. The jackbooted thugs (read police - bless their little hearts) have effectively stomped on the throats of the protesters, to the point of seriously injuring a protesting VETERAN! I'm sorry, but this gets my blood boiling! One of these thugs (err, sorry, police men) actually used their motorcycle to ROLL OVER one of the protestors! WTF?! Can any of you say "NAZI GERMANY"?

If you are willing to give up your free speech and rights to peaceably assemble, then by all means, IGNORE the Owsers, go to work, spend da cash, and go on living your disillusioned lives. BTW, what we're you doing during the Vietnam Era? Did you disagree with the war? Were you marching to end it? Same with Irag? Well, ya get what ya put into it, as my old mom would say.

I'm really frustrated because the people I know and socialize with "don't get it". They really don't understand (or care???) how much they (we) have been getting fucked, especially these past 8 to 10 years. The feeling seems to be, "Yeah, I got my....pension, Social Security, Disablility, so I really don't care about anybody else!" Well, if that's your MO, then you deserve every bit of the ass reaming you're about to see over the next two to three years. BANK ON IT!

"BANK ON IT!" No pun intended. It's an old expression back from a time when banks lent money they HAD, and charged interest on those loans. They also gave interest to people who had savings...not a whole lot, they still protected their profit margins, but at least they were reasonably fair and honest, AND they responded to the marketplace reality. Unlike today, where the Wonderful Wizard of Oz (Timmy Geitner and Uncle Ben) make monetary policy only to fit the top 1 percent. It's bastards like them that are eating my meager savings alive. A pox on them all!

"BTW, what we're you doing during the Vietnam Era?"

Q's not here, so I'll make the correction: What WERE you doing during the Vietnam Era? (I realize that many of you were mere children at the time).

I fear for the time that I no longer get angry about our country and, by extension, our world. JHK doesn't seem to be old enough to remember that back in time, as recently as the '60s, '70s, and even '80s, most of us Americans had no where near the massive girth that our brethren have now. We used to be fairly attractive people - minus the fashions of the day, I mean ;)

If you were a Hindu Michael Moore, you would pretend to do just that - while really living in a Taj Mahal.

Oh is he one of your icons? So sorry sad and sorry one.

Women? You're attracted to Michelle Obama. Not a bad looking woman but the habitual expression on her face is that of the grinch. In other words, you're attracted to bitches. You have a long and sorry path ahead of you before you wise up.

"Pucker---

A little more than one year from now, we'll all be doing one of two things.

We'll be celebrating the President's re-election, and our renewed opportunity to keep moving this country forward. Or we'll be wondering whether we could have done more -- reached out and talked to more people, helped register more voters -- when we still had time.

I plan on waking up on the morning of November 7th, 2012, knowing that President Obama was re-elected and I did everything I could to make sure of it. We have a lot of ground to cover between now and Election Day -- and we can't wait until next year to get started. That's why this week -- one year out -- we're ramping up the volunteer push that's going to get this president re-elected.

Today, say you're ready to be a part of it -- whether that means you make phone calls next week, go canvassing early next year, or take on a leadership role in your neighborhood team in the months to come.

Commit to volunteer for 2012 today.

Thousands of supporters are already at work on the ground, talking to their neighbors, pitching in however they can. But none of us can sit back on the sidelines and hope that work alone will be enough. It won't.

There isn't going to be another November between now and the election: The twelve months we have left are all we're going to get. Right now, we all have the time, and the opportunity, to step up and make a commitment to be a part of the work that we know will be the difference between winning and losing next fall.

The reality we'll all face when the dust settles after the 2012 elections is something we can affect with the actions we decide to take today.

It's time: Say you'll help shape the outcome of 2012 by committing to volunteer:

http://my.barackobama.com/Commit-To-Volunteer

Let's get out there,

Jeremy

Jeremy Bird
National Field Director
Obama for America"

Sorry for the delay, had to walk around the neighborhood with the kid, they were handing out free food this evening! Even got a few MRE's

Oscarkilo on that permission request!
Although, seems every time we look around it's more of a CF'dWorld. I guess that's what they meant by globalization, should have known...

I'll check it out. But don't write off the Whites just yet: many Boers believe in the Prophecies of their great Seer Nicholass Van Rensburg who said that the Boers would regain their freedom from the Blacks. In preparation, many are begining to move to the West Cape and the paramilitary training is now widespread.

http://www.wvwnews.net/story.php?id=10393

Do you know anything about Hindu Astrology? I've heard its more accurate than Western since it is always correcting itself with the movement of the Cosmos. There are so many services for sale over the internet - can you reccomend one that can do my chart?

He is a good writer and it's a great essay. Taking my time with it. I'll tell you what I think when I'm done.

Ruskin is someone I should know more about. He apparently inspired tremendous devotion in person among his students. Walter Pater and the decadents looked to him. As did Willaim Morris and the whole crafts movement I believe. And men of action like Cecil Rhodes considered him a guru. Because of him they were inspired to spread the glories of Anglo-Saxon Culture to the world. They were behind the round tables which became the Council of Foreign Relations in the US. Somewhere along the line all this became globalism as we know it. In other words, spreading Western Culture now means miscegenating Whites out of existence. Wtf? As Tolkien said, many evil things didn't start out that way. Look at Sauron and Jim Jones.

I don't blame Ruskin for any of this at this point. He would probably be horrified at what his teachings ended up inspiring.

Just skin deep? Who says? The brain is a physical organ too and subject to Darwinian evolution. And we've been separated from the Blacks for tens of thousands of years. It's not strange that there are psychological differences. Rather the contrary: it would be strange if there weren't. That would be against Darwin.

The Gays say the same thing, but it's alright when they say it, right? As your philospher Lady Gaga says, "Born this way".

Tell me about it. I no longer fly. I got stopped twice: once for too much sunscreen (I have lupus and always carry big tubes of sunscreen - forgot it was in the purse.) And the second time for some antiseptic from the dentist when I was having a tooth inplant done. After that I got pulled out of line and searched. It didn't take long to get the message. The noose is closing in on us. No doubt about it.

Jill in Berkeley

Grow potatoes, yes. It's not actually too hard to grow potatoes, corn and squash. In fact, I'd start with these.

Training a mule I'd give a miss. They have a reputation that's likely well deserved. Goats are probably more worthwhile. You can train them to pull a cart, or pack your gear, and you can get milk and subsequently cheese from them. Plus they eat weeds and are generally pretty easygoing.

If you are "planning" on doing any of this, however, now (actually last year) is the time to start. There's a big learning curve with the "simple life" that city folks generally do not anticipate. I know we didn't appreciate what we were getting into. We just sort of bumbled along. But it does not happen overnight.

Well, the latest European bailout plan had the markets euphoric for a couple days, then reality set in again. It's all more smoke and mirrors. At best they can delay the collapse a little longer, although it looks like events may be coming to a head.

When German and French banks bought all those Greek bonds (the ones now officially shaved to 50 cents on the dollar) they also bought insurance on the bonds (called Credit Default Swaps or CDS, a form of derivative) with US brokerages, including MF Global. Of course, these US insurers were happy to collect the premiums but when the shit hit the fan they had to admit they didn't have the money to actually make their policy holders whole. Or put another way, they couldn't pay off the bet. Sorry, European banks. Monday, Oct 31, MF Global went into bankruptcy. But wait, it gets worse.

MF Global like all brokerages and investment banks has its "house money" which it can use to invest and speculate (gamble). Then they have their clients accounts which are kept separate. Well, it looks like MF Global stole all the money out of their clients accounts in a desperate and unsuccessful attempt to avoid collapse.

I don't know what the "MF" stands for, but "motherfuckers" would be highly appropriate.

Once upon a time in America that level of bold faced stealing would have shocked the nation. A lot of people would have gone to jail; they may yet, including the CEO Corzine, a former governor and senator from (where else?) New Jersey. But I wouldn't be surprised if the top guys plead ignorance and get off, while the trading desk clerks go to jail.

So if one brokerage can steal its clients money, why not the others? This could start a run on other brokerages since they're all crooks, and people are starting to wake up to that fact. Most folks just hate to see all their retirement money disappear in an orgy of outright larceny. I am not kidding when I say the Mafia treats people nicer than this.

The Occupy Movement can't be all bad since David Duke has come out in support of it and the Black Woman who was fired for speaking the Truth to Power.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUY7o7pX6vk

"tripp - the 'dark ages' were an economic collapse. the dark ages lasted a lot longer than 50 years....."

The "dark ages" were also a brief period of sustainable human activity embedded in the growth phase. Some would argue that it was a life not worth living, but there is no amount of affluence that justifies killing the biosphere for our children. To me, living a life that compromises my children's future well-being is the worst sort of existence imaginable.

I simply meant that 50 years would cover the remaining expected lifespan of most of the posters around here, and would therefore be quite long enough to scare the bejesus out of them. No wild, random guesses necessary. Although comparing what's going on now with any given period within the larger growth context, that is, the last 10,000 years, is to not really understand the gravity of what's happening.

If there are half a billion people left on Earth this time next century I'd be surprised. At that point, and with the resultant ecological recovery following the subsidence of industrial activity, one might consider the population once again sustainable. Who knows.

"Of course it's not fair but the problem remains and as the LDCs buy into our game it gets immeasurably worse."

Now THAT is square on the mark!

Did you pick up anything about permaculture?

"Maybe, if we have enough different hair and skin tones and colors and slightly different shapes and sizes, there won’t be as much of a drive to ink pictures on and poke holes in ourbodies in order to create an exotic appearance. Sameness is boring, while diversity makes for a richer life experience."

Hear hear!!

LOL!
I wish Jeremy lots o' luck on his [bowelish] movement.
It's hard to believe he would send that rah-rah shit to a potentially informed person (regardless of their party "affiliation"). Isn't that a bit risky?

Jeremy better keep his head down, 'cause things ain't gonna be lookin' too sweet in about a year...
but hey, it's all about PR and ad-space, isn't it?

please forgive my ignorance on the subject, but what is LDC? and tripp, do you have any way of warning the nice lady about the nazi?

"But that last sentence betrays a flaw in your thinking. If you have too little energy, then there are two possible solutions; use less, or get more (or some combination of the two). Doomers too often speak of the problem as if there was only the second option."

I assume you're referring to me as a doomer, though my message has always been to use less, not get more, so I'm not at all sure what you're getting at. There will be less energy per capita from here on out, has been since 1979 actually, and now growth is officially over to boot. To gain more energy now other people have to starve and die. To use less, people have to change the way they think. I've done the later, and you seem to be bent on perpetuating the former, whatever brand of magical thinking that requires. You've got your accusations completely backward again.

And to top it all off, they tried to SELL the hollowed out POS, knowing full well there was "no there there". Everywhere you look; rot and fraud without punishment or social shunning. Shameless.

MF Global. Perfect, just perfect; you can't make this shit up.

"please forgive my ignorance on the subject, but what is LDC? and tripp, do you have any way of warning the nice lady about the nazi?"

All I can make out is something-developing countries. Not sure what the 'L' stands for. And yes, I'll project a message on the permaculture sub-ether net to her about our Vlad;)

"Bwahahahaha!!!! No, I'm going to go with the resource depletion hypothesis...
--------------------------------------
Tripp, you're already so over invested you have no choice."

You're right. There is no evidence whatsoever around us that things have gone completely haywire. People don't just choose to fuck things up royally when they were going so smoothly, just because they had some mass change of heart about their consumption patterns. What a fool I've been. Occum's Razor is definitely on your side in this matter...

Collapsing is not so important.
The important is having somebody to collapse with.
Or it is not important to collapse, the important is to participate.
If Italy defaults on Monday, France follows on Tuesday, Germany a few days later.
Ironically Italian banks are much more reliable than French banks, they have many less Italian bonds
(and Greek bonds).

Vlad - dang it, boy!

Just when I think I've found a white separatist/supremacist who can live and think in the world of actual reality - you come up with something like this:

"The Blacks should be settled with as we have attempted to do with the Indians. A generous swath of the Deep South with Atlanta as a capital should do the job. The borders must be drawn so as to include Prog. It's up to them to decide how to dealt with "their" Whites."
-vlad krandz-

I guess the black supremacists/separatists will be thrilled by this idea of separating the American South for a Black Land. Thus do you, Vlad Krandz, validate the black supremacist idea that ALL whites in the American South are responsible for all of the racial evil ever perpetrated on the Whole Entire World.

Nice -

You live in a (interior West Coast?) fantasy world. Exactly what mechanism(s) would accomplish this goal of yours.

Never mind - I guess some version of a "Trail of Tears" for Southern White People, would do just fine - in this IdahoLand fantasy of yours.

James - Sorry I am late to the party, but things are heating up. So let's see what the Prince of Peace is up to now. kulturcritic.

http://kulturcritic.wordpress.com/posts/will-the-nobel-peace-prize-winner-stand-and-be-recognized/


Why is everybody picking on Vlad?

Yeah he confused Niger with Nigeria. Such ignorance, such exaggeration. As we know Nigeria's Total Fertility Rate is "only" 5.6 babies per woman.

That means that their population will double in less than 13 years...600 million Nigerians.

Think of the human capital!

Pucker,
Tell Jerry for me, that I did all of that last time, and what I got was not what was advertised.

If "we the people" are given a choice between a party that is a wholly owned subsidiary of crony capitalism, and another that is majority owned by the same kleptocrats, we need to change the game, not ratify it.

LDC = lesser developed country or countries.

Tripp -

I've got answer your question before tackling Wage's question/accusations -

You are talking about survival of yourself and your family. Wage is talking doctrine.

And you are living in preparation of a vision of near? complete societal collapse within the next 50 years. John Michael Greer (I think, I've just recently begun to follow him) doesn't foresee the same complete societal collapse that you do, Tripp. Or maybe JMG doesn't have young children that he knows he will protect, no matter what.

Anyway - survival (within large moral limits) trumps doctrine in my book. And I know where you are - in a small Southern community. Outside of the Methodist and Baptist churches - there's not a whole lot going on with any social depth or breadth.

And there's the whole question of "making your place in the world better and/or spreading your OWN truth."

You will reach more people with the Doctrines of Permaculture if you take a lower profile against the various "sky Gods." It's south Georgia, dude. You're not going to convert it away from some version of Christianity in one lifetime.

But by participating a little bit -
Maybe you can take off some of the hard edges.

$.02 - Prog

thanks, bean you re well, i hope...

Wow, Wage - late last week, you posted something to the effect that I had missed you. Which - hey, I don't mind admitting - is true enough.

Apparently you missed me, too. But you've certainly come back ready to rumble, womanfrien':

"Well, that's the conclusion Prog came to. Remember when he first started commenting, he was questioning his faith? And then he decided he wanted them good ol' Baptist boys watching his behind. And now he baits atheists on this site. Maybe as internet cover, to add to the hometown stuff." -wage, concerning survival of collapse-

It's very important to question one's faith, Wage. Most of the real harm ever done in the World - has been done by people who NEVER QUESTIONED ANYTHING, especially their faith.

And I do not bait atheists on this site.
I do sometimes bait Atheists.
That capital letter makes a big difference.

In my mind - people have no doubts or questions just need some baiting and poking from time to time - to help them think, you know.

There will be less energy per capita from here on out, has been since 1979 actually, and now growth is officially over to boot.
-------------------------------------------
The trouble with being "fully invested" in one point of view is, you become blind to complexity, to wit:

From 1990 to 2008 the average use of energy per person as IEA data increased 10 % and the world population increased 27 %. Regional energy use grew from 1990 to 2008: Middle East 170 %, China 146 %, India 91 %, Africa 70 %, Latin America 66 %, USA 20 %, EU-27 7 % and world 39 %
---------------------------------------

That's what a trend looks like. If you need a source I'll provide it. In other words, Not only has total energy use grown sizably, but output per measure of energy has soared. If I were foolish enough to become invested in "knowing all about" something so complex and multi-dimensional....and I believed in technology and the future without reservation (the flip side of your argument)....I'd take that as a major success, not a sign of the end of big energy, or whatever it is you believe in.

You imagine your position to be "flexible", that is, you think you will somehow be less at risk should a major decline occur.....maybe. But that would only be true if the major decline DOES occur. All possibilities, and their appropriate probabilities taken into account, your position is actually highly inflexible....that is, you're fully invested in one outcome. If it doesn't happen, you're just a guy standing on a street corner with a sign and a long beard braying about the end of the world.

I'm not your opposite number, as those who are doomers (sorry if I've mistakenly labeled you as such, but you sound awfully close to that position) like to label me. I don't know what will happen next, I take reasonable precautions to be prepared, but that's really all we can do.

I don't make a religion out of science, or out of hating science. I suspect mankind is in for a roller coaster ride (just as it always has been), but I'm not stupid enough to think I know when the next down hill is coming, that's just vanity.

what is supposed to happen on 11/11/11?

"That means that their population will double in less than 13 years...600 million Nigerians.
Think of the human capital!" -WC

Human capital... hmmm, Human Resources.
Aw hell, why don't we drop the pretense and Orwellian new-speak and use some older terminology:
"desperate slaves" should do. ;o)

"Held for review" again.
Really, strike two? Hey, I mailed the UPC symbols.
You know what they say 'bout trying three times until you get a yes.
Dang, and I took out all the links and there wasn't a single expletive.
So what is it, not enough swear words or too many?
I'm confused...

Every week this blog is becomming more and more boring. The same topic, hashed over a million ways by various views all leading to the same page. We are doomed....when, how, where, in what variety, no way out..blah, blah, blah.

You all might as well log onto various astrologers websites. Its a all a crap shoot. No one knows the future, not even Kunstler. He seems to constantly be whining about the demise of this country or that country etc. BORING.

The world has NEVER gone backward. If we all start using horses again, and cooking on wood stoves, killing our own chickens and chopping wood every day, then we are going to be living in a television episode of The Twilight Zone. It will never happen. People will just begin to die off and slowly things in the world will change. Its just the way things are. The amount of words and "predictions" of going backward are just a waste of time. The Baby Boomers have shot their best load, and when the generation totally dies off, the world will begin to move AHEAD....NOT BACKWARDS.

Tripp,
Wassamatta U.? (Bullwinkle's alma mater.)
Don't you know it's better just to go along with the current "arrangements" than to provide food-growing, gathering and diversification skills for your kids?

Geez, EVERYONE knows that begging for your [processed] food [-like monoculture substance] on the street corner is a much better plan than growing your own. Get wid' da program! Why must you be so friggin' dense? ;o)

For Vedic astrologers do a search for James Kelleher. I had a reading done by him - he's quite good. Many Indians in Silicon Valley go to him for readings.

M.H.

First of all, insuff - define "FORWARDS" in the terms of the motion of human society - as used in your post.

"The world has NEVER gone backward. If we all start using horses again, and cooking on wood stoves, killing our own chickens and chopping wood every day..." -insuf-

You might want to talk to the former citizens of the USSR - and you might want to talk to the Cubans - most of them went "backwards," as you seem to use the term.

Please elaborate.

Thanks. I'll use him if does it over the net unless Asia/Anti has an objection or a better candidate.

He knows alot about India and psychic stuff and I know him. I don't know you from Manu. (Adam)

I did no such thing - I added Nigeria after you left it off the list. Curb your impertinence and serve your race with humility.

I'm half serious: a White man was once fired from a white collar job because a black colleague took offence at the word niggardly. That's the quality of human capital that Blacks present.

Life IS boring for the most part - all seeds and skin as the Indian Saint Ramakrishna said. The nectar is exceedingly scarce.

Studies show that material conditions fell off greatly after the fall of the Roman Empire in the West. Or look at Babylon: now ruins in the place of a great city of luxury.

There is no progress so called - just endless waxing and waning. The real progress is the soul's journey from the alone to the Alone.

Rush is playing Barack the Magic Negro - ah Nectar!

Very good post, Dale, IMO. Your outlook mirrors mine. We can't know the future, too many variables exist. All we can really provide is guesses. Assigning accurate probabilities of future events is very difficult; however it can be done. But that's all they are - probabilities. For a realistic perspective on probabilities as applied to real life, read David Ropeik's book on this subject. I wish I could remember the title; unfortunately, I don't.

Dear James

First of all thank you for this very entertaining and at the same time very sharp and straight forward blog. Allways a pleasure to read.

The sentence, which I believe to be in Turkish, 'kim bilar!' which means 'who knows!' should be corrected as 'kim bilir!'. Just a small correction.

Best regards

Love your latest post Kultur. Just signed up for your mailing list.

here's the techno-fix to all problems in a nutshell:

this weekend, a tenant tells me at 2 p.m. his hot water has not been working since last Thursday when the old one blew out and they replaced it that day with a new one.

i personally do not know how to determine what needs fixing. admitting my own ineptitude, i call my boss to see if he can take some time out of his weekend to figure out what the thing needs to get it up and running.

he goes, tests it, tells me his diagnosis (electrical issue with the breaker) then calls someone affiliated with HIS boss --the management company's maintenance department-- to deal with the issue.

that guy arrives, runs the same series of tests my boss did, then calls the company that installed the hot water heater last week.

those guys arrive, run the same series of tests, and tell me to call an electrician. the technician i got was kind enough to not charge me for wasting his time!

this is exactly what my boss originally said was wrong with the item and he could have directed me to fix the real source of the issue at that time. but instead, i've got five guys on cell phones (because all of these companies don't have an actual employee or dispatcher answering the telephones on weekends. they all seem to contract out to a telephone-answering service, who takes your info and passes it on, and so on, and so forth...)all yakkin' to each other and running the same test on the thing over and over, and then calling each other with what they have found. eureka!! it's definitely not an apple falling on Newton's head.

what should have been fixed in 2 hours ultimately took until 9 o'clock at night and four different people putting their hands on the thing in order to make sure that one guy can take a shower when he gets home from work.

Calm down, Prog. That was an observation, not an accusation. Which oberservation you just confirmed with your post to Tripp.

The part about baiting atheists as internet cover? I just thought of that.

Personally, I think it's nicer to bait atheists to cover your own internet ass than to do it for the pure sport. Because it would be a bait-and-switch on top of it! Since you came questioning your faith and all, and I fell for it!

I'm assuming you posted this to give us all a laugh, Pucker.

Because if there is one thing that unites us on this blog, it's a disgust with Barack Obama and what he's doing.

Except for Asoka. And only one of his personalities supports Obama. The rest call him a war criminal.

Smokyjoe, you may have not read your Jared Diamond closely enough. he posits that there were not enough 'native' diseases to fight back with. the Aztecs would have brought....syphilis; that's about it. and that got to Europe easily enough on its own. north-south versus east-west orientation of the americas, and lack of a common domesticated animal throughout were the reasons he states.

another book i'd recommend is "1491...".

a common iteration in our household is "they shoulda shot 'em before they got off the boat!"

Like a desert mirage of water, you lap up the the sarcastic inflection and bombastic vocals of Limbaugh as if it were "nectar".

You have been poisoned, Krandz. Take some castor oil and actually read the written text of Limbaugh's spoken words. You will never feel so stupid... lionizing such infantile mediocrity.

I'm serious: actually read his spoken word in text. Your bitter pill will be an eye opener.

Well, thank goodness I've never made ANY sort of hard guess as to when the stuff might hit the fan. In my opinion, we are way past said fan splattering said stuff in every direction. Apparently there are some statistics you've missed on your comprehensive tour of what IS. Maybe you didn't notice but the rates of cancer are soaring, stroke, diabetes, heart disease, fibromyalgia (rickets, or whatever you want to call it), obesity, gluten-intolerance, etc, etc, ad nauseum, ad infinitum.

"The stuff" doesn't have to be a morphous bounded substance to hit the fan (though that would make it easier to recognize, granted); a thin smattering of some diarrhea-like stuff dribbled with increasing regularity into said fan blades makes a far worse mess, in my fatherly opinion, if for no other reason than that it's more difficult to get a good handle on.

What I'm doing is improving my life, right here, right now. I recognize that using a lot of energy is cancerous, as is evidenced in American culture at large, and I have chosen another route. I think a lot of what makes my children so wonderful (in the eyes of everyone who has met them so far anyway) is their LACK of contact with typical American levels of energy.

Food grown in a slower, saner way tastes better, feels better, has a higher vitamin and mineral content, and if managed correctly leaves the soil in better shape, creating a positive feedback loop of improving health and brain function. I know because I've been there, and now I'm in a place where it's very hard to acquire if I am not personally growing it, and we are suffering noticably for that. In other words, the more I live like the average American the more I suffer. That's just hard first-hand data.

I'm not standing on any street corners with a sandwich board over my shoulders decrying the end of time, no, I'm in my garden, living the good life, or at the farmers market helping other people find it. I talk about it because it IS so good, not because we are attempting to avoid something bad in the unforeseeable future. Though that could end up being a definite perk!

If energy availability goes the other direction, that is, back into a growth pattern, I know that humanity will continue to suffer for it, just as we've been suffering more and more each generation since the pattern began. And I will still be here providing an alternative model, living a happy, healthy life in a slow and sane way. There is nothing that could persuade me to leave the good life to go back to the cancerous one, not even a free energy source. Although such a thing is a logical impossibility anyway.

Therefore, it's my conclusion that you don't understand very much about me, what I do, or what I endorse, and I would appreciate it if you would just bother someone else with you misunderstandings.

your

"All we can really provide is guesses. Assigning accurate probabilities of future events is very difficult; however it can be done."

All we can provide is guesses, but assigning accurate probabilities can be done. I'm glad I'm not relying on your logical reasoning skills for my future survival, Bean!;)

We believe what we're pre-disposed to believe. In this way every opinion is a religious one, even the secular scientific one. Any opinion imaginable can be supported by internet "data." That's why the internet has not promoted any mass movement toward reality, yours nor mine. But, the good news is, Nature will proceed as she always has, selecting from the planet's latent diversity those traits which most befit the current environmental pressures. The rest of this is all conjecture.

"Geez, EVERYONE knows that begging for your [processed] food [-like monoculture substance] on the street corner is a much better plan than growing your own. Get wid' da program! Why must you be so friggin' dense? ;o)"

It's the mineral-dense organic food; I can't help it...the mainstream cultural narrative just seems so...forehead-slappingly retarded (TM) to me. Maybe I should just shut up, go back to eating those Happy Mealz, and find my bliss again.

Hey, Tripp, a very good posting, too. I know you practice what you preach, unlike so many of us CFNers. Leading a simple, low-energy-usage lifestyle that makes you happy is a wonderful thing, and I applaud you for it.

HOWEVER (there's always a "however" with me, it seems), living like you do is a personal choice. Most of our society makes a choice to lead a high-energy lifestyle. Don't you think there must be some positive paybacks for people to choose to live the way they do? If it was all terrible, people wouldn't do it.

Using a lot of energy has vastly increased our population. I've mentioned V. Gordon Childe in several posts. He believed the only objective measure of a species' progress is in their population numbers. To the extent population increases, is nature's way of measuring success. Now you and I know too much of a good thing is not good, and human population is way too high. Yet I believe Childe was correct.

How do we reconcile this? I think the answer is that our energy use (and ultimately our population) should have leveled off at some point. That didn't happen, so the issue has been our lack of self-control and wisdom, not the high energy lifestyle itself. I'm not sure anyone really knows the exact carrying capacity of the Earth, but I can imagine a world where the per capita energy usage is still high or relatively high, and the population is less than the carrying capacity.

With regard to the modern lifestyle, it sure does produce a lot of stress, but the human body is built to handle it. Lifespans have increased from around 25-30 during the stone age to around 80 today, thanks to technology. Now maybe you don't like the price of this lifespan increase, but you have to admit, to an atheist like me and other non-believers, a longer, healthier lifespan is to be desired.

And healthier it is. I don't know where you got your figures, but US cancer rates are either stable for some type of cancers or decreasing for others. Some types of cancers are in fact increasing. Cancer is a very complicated set of diseases and a blanket statement on the cancer rate is usually not accurate. Heart condition deaths have definitely decreased. Cancer and heart conditions both have a major lifestyle component, so even though a high-energy-usage life is maybe a negative factor, relatively minor changes to that lifestyle can go a long way to mitigate the probability of getting these diseases.

Yeah, I didn't explain myself clearly. What I'm trying to say is that a probability only gives us the chance of something happening, not whether or not it WILL happen. In that sense, all probabilities are guesses of occurrence, so an accurate probability is the best guess.

I was just about to reply to your first post, but then realized that, instead of huffing and puffing to some stranger in (for all practical purposes) a different country, I could make my point better by just playing with my children. So I did, and now they are cracking roasted peanuts at the table, the wild rice is on to simmer, and I'm going out to water the greens.

Thanks for the banter.

Don't be angry. Obama is a fraud and Whites voted for him based on guilt. Becuause of guilt, Whites like you created an image that Blacks are morally superior to Whites. Now you realize that Obama is a fraud and you feel uncomfortable for voting for him. But you still haven't come to grips with the fundamental disease that caused you to project all these wonderful qualities onto a stuffed suit. So instead of grappling with these issues, you'd rather attack me.

The song addresses these issues in a fun and hilarious way. Try to find it and download. Listen to it as you go to be at night. Keep it going all night so it enters your dreams.


Whirlpool Revisited

This one's for you, Wage. In 2010 I wrote about how Whirlpool after receiving 19.3 million of stimulus money shut down an Indiana factory to move down to Mexico and told the other workers they should be quiet about it lest they lose their own jobs.

I was checking out my FB page when I ran across this one from Ed Schultz on Oct 28th.

Well ya know the stock market rules and even though Maytag had a profit of $177 million, it fell short of expectations so of course you know 5 thousand workers jobs at a whopping $17 per hour just had to be cut.

Oh, those corporate big wigs just have to make up the difference of their short-falls by taking from others, afterall in this game they still insist on calling Capitalism they can't possibly lose!--no matter what!

Which brings me to the topic of our friend Jon Corzine of MF Global securities firm. Ha! and what did this former NJ Gov. and Goldman Sachs exec do?

After a big bet on European debt backfired--MF Global bet $6.3 billion on debt issued by Italy, Spain and other European nations with troubled economies.

Oh I guess he didn't cover himself with counter bets so he couldn't possibly lose--What was he thinking? Didn't he learn anything when he was there? I read he got fired from GS by Paulson of all people, man that is a low. Why didn't he do the GS foxtrot he was supposed to have learned so well?

Well he went into Madoff mode and took money from his clients to cover his losses.---You just can't make this stuff up. It's the world of no regulations--Translation no rule of law.
_______________________


Note to Vlad--They're all frauds! Doesn't matter which party. Both Dems and Reps made huge money in the last 3 years since the stock market crash--that too will have to be investigated.

State judges are bought with corporate money. It's going to take way more than an election to clean this cronyism up.

The system needs a major colonic! (Can't say I want to be in the way when it happens)

Oops-- I said Maytag instead of Whirlpool, but that's 'cause I was going to go into how Whirlpool bought out Maytag and cut it's workers off from their health insurance in 2006.

"We believe what we're pre-disposed to believe. In this way every opinion is a religious one, even the secular scientific one. Any opinion imaginable can be supported by internet "data." That's why the internet has not promoted any mass movement toward reality, yours nor mine."
-tripp ticket-

Tripp said this - and it's pretty profound, and pretty damning of humanity and the human enterprise.

Certainly - any imaginable opinion can be supported by internet "data." - from the open internet. But there are islands of sanity in the open internet. One is Wikipedia.

I understand the anti-Wikipedia arguments. But I've never seen an anti-Wiki argument proven true in any sort of significant manner, especially in the past couple of years.

I just spent several minutes looking up the most controversial subjects I could think of on the spur of the moment on Wikipedia. Rush Limbaugh, Iraq, Fox News, Occupy Wall Street, Peak Oil, etc. etc.

I could not find a single Wikipedia article that was not, when taken as a whole - relatively impartial and factually sound. If someone can find a bad Wiki article - I sure would like to see it.

My point is - Truth is out there - on the internet. Humanity just isn't interested in it.
What is wrong with us?
We're going down and it's our own fault.

I did think to look up one article that was quite interesting and topical. It even has a "Criticisms" section. That's a pretty short section.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permaculture

"Personally, I think it's nicer to bait atheists to cover your own internet ass than to do it for the pure sport. Because it would be a bait-and-switch on top of it! Since you came questioning your faith and all, and I fell for it!"
-wagelaborer-

I'm almost at a loss for words, Wage.
I question my faith, or lack thereof, regularly.
I only suggest that you and the CFN atheists do the same.

Sorry if you think I'm baiting and switching for sport, or to be devious, or to trap you or others into falling for things.

And I'm certainly not trying to cover my "internet ass."

One short, sharp, shock of humor (TM Pink Floyd)

Exactly what, Ms. Wage L, do you think my "internet ass" would look like?

"We are in the process of creating what deserves to be called the idiot culture. Not an idiot sub-culture, which every society has bubbling beneath the surface and which can provide harmless fun; but the culture itself. For the first time, the weird and the stupid and the coarse are becoming our cultural norm, even our cultural ideal."
Carl Bernstein, U.S. journalist. Guardian (London, June 3, 1992)

This is the truth!! We are stuck in a warp whereby no one in government has a strong enough spine to actually engage in fixing our problems. They are stuck in making sure the richest people are protected from harm.

Grow potatoes, train a mule, and cook up road kill. This is the new America. Best to live in Sweden.

http://eye-on-washington.blogspot.com

"One short, sharp, shock of humor (TM Pink Floyd)"

I never knew exactly what they were saying there. Thanks for the clarification!

Hahahahaha-ha-ha-ha!!!

I don't know, I was really drunk at the time...

Prog! Read the reviews of "Into the Cannibal's Pot" on Amzazon. A Jewish woman who helped to overthrow the Whites now realizes it was madness and warn the US that it could come here. Your mistake? You think Asoka is a rarity. Fatal mistake. He is unusualy passionate and outspoken that's all. Most Blacks, even educated ones, believe exactly the same. Many might not say it to a White's face, but so what? They will support the Asokas of the world in one way or another. And even the ones who disagree aren't about to rock the boat and earn the hatred of their racial brothers and sisters. Muslims are the same. Not all are jihadis but most will ultimately support them or at least not oppose them.

On Europe and Islam: see Oriana Fallaci, the feminst firebrand who opposed the invasion. She believed the research of an Israeli researcher named Bat Yeor. Bat Yeor said that a powerful pre European Union group negotiated with the Muslims to turn Europe towards Islam in exchange for a guarante that the oil would never be shut off. Beyond that, Eurabia fits in with the long term globalist agenda which is has the intent of superseding nations by large economic zones and then ultimately uniting the zones for world goverment. For Europe per se, they care not at all.

And Europe was ripe for the plucking. Very liberal and resentful of America ever since we saved them during WW2. They believed all the propaganda and believed that we were racists. The Swede Gunnar Myrdal was one of the chief theorists of American Desegregation - altho it's not sure he ever met any actual Blacks outside of the UN. In any case, I personally believe that Europe actually envied us our minorities. They wanted some of their own - so they could do it better than us. And prove once and for all, our corruption and their virute. So importing millions of Muslims fufilled this passion - one of the few passions post war Europe still had.

Last in importance in my view was the need for labor. In many places this was temporary. For years much of Europe has had double digit unemployment yet the influx did not abate. Sure some of these jobs might not have been what Europeans really wanted to do, but incentives could have been given; even negative ones like a workfare situation instead of welfare for the young and able bodied.

I think Bat Yeor has written a book by now so you could go directly to her.

CF said, "there is some interesting research being done re the treatment of socio/psychopathy using electromagnetics applied to the back of the head...perhaps a targeted EMP would suffice..."

That will be interesting. Everyone with a hearing aid that doesn't work.

It will crowd be good crowd control for when the seniors are rioting for their medicare.

I'm still *banned* here. NICE FSCKING code, JHK...

Here's the *solution*!

The 99% make everyone aware that their vote will be a *write-in*, and wait until the corporations/lobbyists spend their billions on the two-party FAUX-PAS. Then, let all the 99% know who to write in, and *SPELL IT EXACTLY RIGHT*! Just make sure, the write-in candidates aren't more of the same corporate sell-out *DEMONS*.

Do it at all levels - federal/state/county. Oust these fscking corporate lobbyist soul-sellers. We don't need the same black asshole President, without any hope, or any change (at least he quit smoking - LULZ!!!)

Your Con looks great. Wish I could go!

Agreed, Jerry

It's called the lunatic fringe which used to be just that. A fringe group. Now they run the country.
With a corporate media which is more a PR front running the message for the plutocracy, there is little investigative reporting going on and there is little to hold people's feet to the fire when they say outlandish things.

Few actually give them solid arguments against their nonsense about cutting taxes and no regulations as a way to create jobs. All anyone has to do is look at the labor costs between the US and third world countries. Once you get the picture, you know those things won't help against slave labor and currency differentials.

The Republicans look like they don't really want to win this time around. They must smell failure from where they sit and don't want to attach their name to it.

In the meantime, looks like Europe is in big trouble and it will affect us as well. If they throw us into another recession--that is if the financial sector gets hurt again,(since the rest of us are still in a depression) it's over for Obama.

"In the meantime, looks like Europe is in big trouble and it will affect us as well. If they throw us into another recession--that is if the financial sector gets hurt again,(since the rest of us are still in a depression) it's over for Obama." -LB

LB,
I'm not certain we can assume any such thing. Even factoring in the handily gulled and the big-money teevee ad machinery, how much does voting really affect the outcome anymore? It's those who count the "votes" who will determine that. How much of the country uses electronic voting devices now? To my mind (what there IS of it ;o), those areas are the most suspect. But look who gets "stood up" to vote for, anyway.

I still can't figger why Obama would want to preside over the collapse, but then again, I never could fathom the motives of the power-hungry. Life or Death at the wave of the hand...

someone may have already posted this. I haven't had time to go through all 212 comments. I just wanted to mention that Jack Cafferty compared the futility of the presidential election process, particularly the Republican race, but really all of it, to a NASCAR race. Someone had to post it here. Seriously.
http://caffertyfile.blogs.cnn.com/2011/11/01/with-the-nation-so-badly-divided-how-much-does-it-really-matter-who-the-president-is/

Also, it may be worth mentioning, that, at least as of this month, it is rare to hear Cafferty sound THAT much like Mike Ruppert. I know, it will be getting more common, as the days go by.

If energy availability goes the other direction, that is, back into a growth pattern, I know that humanity will continue to suffer for it, just as we've been suffering more and more each generation since the pattern began. And I will still be here providing an alternative model, living a happy, healthy life in a slow and sane way. There is nothing that could persuade me to leave the good life to go back to the cancerous one, not even a free energy source.
--------------------------------------------
I think my last post was mostly about correcting your inaccurate data about energy use....but I digress.

I realize that there is value to much of what you believe, I prefer organically grown myself. I know about persticides and the effects, plus I suspect there are effects we haven't really quantified yet. I also believe in the value of "belief", in and of itself. What I've been trying to suggest is...it's a good idea to keep what you "believe" and what you "know" as seperate as possible. The former has a tendency to distort the latter.

Carry on.....I didn't mean to harrange you anyway, and I will stop.

"In the meantime, looks like Europe is in big trouble and it will affect us as well. If they throw us into another recession--that is if the financial sector gets hurt again"

Funny, in Europe they say exactly the opposite that the economic crisis was the America´s fault.
But there are also the ones who say that in reality it is a Chinese´s fault.
I guess it is just the mathematic´s fault.
If you spend much more than what you earn, sooner or later the minus creates problems, especially if you borrow the money...

Yes, indeed they did.

There was a Maytag plant around here, and every blue collar worker aspired to someday work there. Good pay, good benefits (relatively speaking).

And then Whirlpool bought them out, and shut them down.

What were the workers advised to do? Some of them 50 year old 30 year veterans of the plant?

Why, go back to school, of course! Yes, go into thousands of dollars of debt to buy themselves a degree, and compete with thousands of 20 y.o. with the same degree and a lot more productive years ahead of them. Who also can't find jobs.

It's sick, it's wrong, and I agree that it's only getting worse.

I agree. I looked up sharia law the other day, to see what all the fuss was about.

Some of it made sense to me. Especially the part about no corporations, just business partnerships, with individual responsiblity for what the business does.

I have been advocating that for a while.

Who knew the muslims thought of it first?

Europe may be in do-do but the Volvo Overseas Delivery program can still get you a free trip to Gothenburg Sweden.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm ????

Hey O3, I guess you wuz lucky this time. My power is just coming back on line. four days no power and people were in a panic. I told 'em you should be more prepared. Pissed them off to no end!This one goes out to you. The steel work is nice. I have to admit the gin was running low!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDAEXn8RJFs

Well, I'm not that impressed with your faith-questioning, Prog.

I've mentioned before that I did decide to become religious once, in 7th grade, hassled unmercifully by nasty Christians.

But the idea of one giant sky god seemed too unbelievable to accept, so I went with the Greco-Roman group.

Guess what? Those assholes were unimpressed. Only their imaginary friend qualified.

So I went back to my atheism.

When you start questioning maybe whether the Greeks were right, or the Norse, or maybe the Indians were right, and every rock and tree has a soul, then I'll accept that you're really "questioning".

But just going back and forth on the one omnipotent spirit in the sky?

Not impressed.

And your internet ass is tight, but vocal.

Pressing your grace, I thought you might find John Michael Greer's latest piece interesting. It comes after several posts on the subject, the reading of which might help the language flow more freely, but you seem like a pretty sharp cat.

http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com/2011/10/trouble-with-binary-thinking.html

Cheers.

Although pagans were wiped out centuries ago, we still go through some of their rituals, although they are totally without meaning. Knocking on wood, and decorating pinetrees in winter come to mind.

I consider "voting" to be in the same category.

Given a corporate-approved slate of characters to choose from, punching corporate-controlled computer screens, listening to corporate media announce the results, (no longer with the exit polls, which embarrassed them when they differed so widely from the announced results in 2004), we good citizens dutifully troop off and do our duty, so that we may rightfully complain afterwards, unlike those slackers who don't bother with the meaningless ritual, and so are inferior.

Have you seen the video of Hilary, laughing over the dead citizens of Libya?

I watch Obama and Clinton give their speeches on human rights, and protecting civilians, and democracy, and the US standing for all that, and I think - they can't possibly believe that! How can they say that shit with a straight face, knowing that their policies are meant to do the opposite? Knowing that our police state is no beacon to any informed person of the Earth?

But the pure evil of someone standing up and mouthing that nonsense, and then laughing in triumph over the corpses - it's unimaginable to normal non-sociopathic people.

Patrizia it is our fault with that crazy monetarism and financial dominance. Yes the Europeans bought it hook, line and sinker--but now they will be affecting us! what goes around....

Atheism is a religion of no religion. And Marxism is a Cult of this religion. And you are a fundamentalist Das Capital thumper.

Tripp's lifeplan works in MANY future, and the current economic environment. So why the disparaging remarks? I have a diverse portfolio for the future (stocks, bonds, annuities,commercila real estate, residential real estate, etc) AND I have a working, soon to be commercial permaculture farm. Think I am a KOOK?
Jim Rogers says anyone not buying farmland right now is totally blind to the future.

Look it up, I know you are searching, keep your eyes wide open while you do it and good luck the world is screaming for wisemen.

"Wouldn't it make more sense to learn how to grow potatoes and train a mule?" Yes, and thank you.

Vegan, vegetarian, or simply eating less meat would do a great deal in health, but also preserving dwindling water supplies.

Good work Nate! I wish I had your resources? I dance as a fast as I can, but circumstances seem to always be one step ahead of me.

Some call it luck, some call it love, some call it faith.

Buying some silver may be wise. Hoarding cash has to be one of the most ignorant things to do in this economy. Stocking up on food gradually would be good. Composting, expecially where soils are sandy is like mining for black gold. Mow your lawn to death and compost all the clippings. Rake the yard and dont throw it away, let it rot, and dig it into the soil with a fork.

Hey it just happens, work hard save your money, take some risk, get lucky enough to make some hay and then parlay that too. My best friend is a financial adviser (owns his own firm). Once he started working with us the net worth statement goes up every year. I have introduced him to all my friends and the ones that follow through with the plan find themselves enriched, and not just in $$$$ terms but whole life terms, empowerment and the self view as a creator. Check out tripp's website if you want to see creation happen before your eyes.

Hey I am a Vermonter too. Did you survive Irene intact and or recovered since? Our area got mauled, Killington/Wooodstock but we personally had just some driveway repairs at our office.

Hate to mess with your head Vlad but interestingly if you had to receive blood from your people, you could die from the blood of many whites. But the blood of a type O black man would save you. (I do not know if blood tranfusions affect penis size but I will Google it)

Good start but the more diverse you are the better chance for success. I believe over a million Irishmen perished with your formula.

Learning to identify and enjoy a variety of wild foods has brought a certain measure of self-reliance to our lives, too. Working the forgotten Kingdom Fungi into your garden plans is definitely rewarding, and most people wouldn't think to take your shrooms. Not in the US anyway. Russia might be different story. I've certainly enjoyed a regular dose of oyster mushrooms this year.

At my urging my family in the area has jointly purchased a chipper/shredder to process all the yard prunings and autumn debris into mulch that were formerly being burned. And we've been hauling pecan shells and composted cotton gin trash home by the truckload for weeks now. Fall crops are loving it. That's real wealth in a contractionary world, eh? Definitely agree about hoarding cash! Nonsense.

:)!

One man's trash eh' Tripp?

I would call atheism the relgion of 'we know best'. And we should be allowed to do whatever the fuck we want, because there isn't any higher power to judge. This turns society into a bunch of crybaby know it alls. That's what's wrong, I think,almost everybody thinks they should be allowed to do anything that comes into their Goddamn heads, you're not allowed to judge me man.

I have my rights, and my rights consist of whatever the hell I feel doing, and nobody is supposed to judge either, and if they do, they're racist, sexist, homophobic cave dwellers. I'm allowed to make up shit to suit myself.

Treasure indeed. I hope I get the opportunity to see some of the looks on folks' faces when they realize they've been handing over their fortune to humble little me for years, free of charge!

The leeks, spinach, and Swiss chard I just planted are loving that cotton gin trash.

That's just about the opposite of my experience with atheists, CT. In my experience atheists understand that this is the only life they have, the only planet they get, and they typically do a better job with both than most of the religeuse I've met, who exercise divinely-annointed "dominion" over the Earth, and expect eternal life in exchange. In my experience.

"Vegan, vegetarian, or simply eating less meat would do a great deal in health, but also preserving dwindling water supplies."

Question: would it be better for the planet for the Inuit above the Arctic Circle to build greenhouses with imported materials, plant imported seeds in imported soil, and heat them with imported fuel, so they could raise fruits and vegetables, or to just kill and eat the meat moving around their camp with homemade weapons?

Always hard to deal in platitudes.

Is not believing in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy or the Easter Bunny some kind of a religion, too?

I think Michael Moore makes decent documentaries, which is a genre that I enjoy. Judging by box office receipts, he makes the most popular ones around and by awards, some of the best ones. Does he have an agenda? Of course, but he wears it on his sleeve. I'm not aware of any facts he got wrong in any of his movies, but please apprise me of any corrections. As far as his own lifestyle, that's 100% his business. I really could care less what he does on his personal time. He sure is good at sending righties like you into a tailspin though, so I think he's doing something ...uh....right.

Michelle Obama is a good looking woman, in my humble opinion. But a lot of that comes down to personal taste. Some like em big. Some like em small. Some like em black. Some like em white. etc. Please don't use your own personal taste as some kind of absolute benchmark for everyone else, given that you already said you hate women in general. That's like saying rock band X sucks, and, oh, btw, I hate all rock music.

Exactly. I couldn't have said it better myself.

I think you can request an unban from JHK via email. That seemed to work for my account, as I'd not really done anything wrong.

Yeah, because McCain/Palin was such a strong alternative for Democrats....right.

Atheism is not a religion. It is the absence of and refutation of religion as a way of thinking. To call it a religion is entirely missing the point.

"This turns society into a bunch of crybaby know it alls."

Oh you mean like those know it alls who believe...

The earth was created 5000 years ago.

Global warming isn't real.

Evolution is only a theory.

Jesus will come and save the true believers.

Or were you talking about someone else?

You know, I'm pretty sure the days ahead of us will get more physically demanding, and perhaps physically uncomfortable at times, certainly more so than the days of air conditioned Tetris in the cubicle making 40 bucks an hour. But if the bermuda grass is still growing in the veggie beds, and the gnats are still out in their own special brand of annoying force, is it too much to ask that the chickens keep laying? Seems like that could be sort of a package deal to me. Yes, the days are getting shorter and cooler, so I understand that you ladies aren't going to lay nearly as much for a while, but at least I get a break from the gnats and Bermuda grass too.

Nope, no such luck...

"And your internet ass is tight, but vocal."
-wage-

Why thank you, Wage. I bet you've got a tight ass too, girlfriend! (assuming the best of a double entendre, heh?)

As far as:
"When you start questioning maybe whether the Greeks were right, or the Norse, or maybe the Indians were right, and every rock and tree has a soul, then I'll accept that you're really "questioning".
But just going back and forth on the one omnipotent spirit in the sky?
Not impressed."
-wage-

Honestly, Wage, I've got a suspicion that the "*best? parts?*" of all the world's religions (including those of your Indians and Norse)have had something important to offer humanity.

And I suspect I have the heart of a pre-Christian Pagan; but hidden under a veneer of relaxed Jeffersonian Christianity that will, also, always be with me.

(I certainly have the gene pool of a pre-Christian Pagan. What the Christain church did to the Pagans and Wiccans in Europe is probably the reason that we Europeans have FUBAR'ed so many things; from 1400 to 2011.)

Atheism has something to offer, too.
But when Atheism becomes strident, rejects other beliefs, and begins to seek converts -
I have to part company with It - and to argue against what looks like an unnecessary forced choice.

Check out that ArchDruid link that Tripp just posted on artificial dualities. It's some very thought provoking stuff - that fits in very well into this particular conversation.

In LA, Some go to ChakraPani...hes so busy he has 3? secretaries and was featured in People magazine..
I have friend who have gone..I wouldnt spend 100$ to 400$ for astrology.

What about Psychics?

"I plan on waking up on the morning of November 7th, 2012, knowing that President Obama was re-elected and I did everything I could to make sure of it."

Why? Are you are saying he won't have fucked thinks up enough by then and he'll need more time?

Vent all ya want you MORON!

Turkle - always a pleasure to see you posting
You too, Wage -

This article just came out TODAY, in HuffPost.
Pretty good thoughts. Try to read it with an open mind. I will certainly do the same.
I've even bookmarked it to go back and reread after I've had a chance to think about it and let it sink in.

"Taken together, these four elements suggest that Atheists regularly demonstrate attributes -- desire for spiritual sustenance, the importance of self-identification, offering their worldview as an alternative to other religious systems, and an assertive if not competitive style of engagement with other religious points of view -- usually exhibited by religious folk of all persuasions." -huffpost-
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-lose/atheism-religion_b_867217.html

Wholly shit, man, take it easy! (You're hitting that hot-button with me again.)

You're describing sociopathic behavior, not the sober rationalism of most atheists I run across. What are YOU sellin'? Those who consider "A"-theism as a religion, just don't get it a'tall. Isn't the miracle of Nature and THE FUCKING UNIVERSE enough for the make-believe delusionistas? Gotta have the endless comfort-and-joy paradigm goin' on AFTER YOU DIE? Man, oh man, oh man...

"I think you can request an unban from JHK via email. That seemed to work for my account, as I'd not really done anything wrong."

Except be one of the most inexhaustible, numb-nuts since Al Gore invented the internet. You

"Atheism has something to offer, too."

Atheism, in and of itself, has nothing to offer. That's the point. No mumbo jumbo. No false promises. No hope. No grand, simplistic (and false) explanations of everything. No meaningless rituals. No afterlife. No magic man in the sky watching every move you make. No miracles. No forgiveness. Nothing.

It merely rejects all the baseless religious beliefs that people MADE UP over thousands of years, for whatever reason (Who cares really?). That's it. As Richard Dawkins put it, most people are atheists already. In other words, Christians believe in their one God, and reject all the others like Zeus and Odin. Atheists just go one step further and reject all of them.

"when Atheism becomes strident, rejects other beliefs, and begins to seek converts"

Oh, gee whiz, that sounds exactly like most every religious nutcase I've ever met. But allow me to disagree. Forcefully expressing yourself is not stridency. Rejecting other people's beliefs is perfectly fine, especially when they have no basis in reality. Do we use faith healers or do we go to the doctor? Are you REJECTING faith healing as a way of curing cancer? Seeking converts, eh, I look at it like reverse brainwashing or deprogramming like when someone needs help in quitting one of those cults.

The real question to me is, do we decide that it is okay to believe completely wacky bulls*** simply because it makes you feel good and a bunch of other people believe the same thing? If you answer in the affirmative, well, guess we'll just have to part ways on this one. I mean, I could tell you that I'm the Queen of Egypt and that it makes me feel real good to believe this. But for this belief I would be (rightly) ridiculed. Same thing with believing that God sent his son down here to get crucified. As a belief, this is completely off, no matter how many millions profess to belief it, and worthy of ridicule.

Cheers!

Uh....ok?

RT,
Ha! I hear ya man; always a day late and a dollar short. ;o)
But the general direction feels about right, so let's keep sloggin'. (I think we know how to do THAT pretty well... after a lifetime of practice. ;o)

Ps. "The Folks" don't like being told about getting down with how it's gonna be? Awwwww, poor fucking BABIES.
And, thanks for the reminder ...one drink of wine; two drinks of gin...
(We really should look into the dangerous manufacture of juniper liquor! Uh-oh.)

Is that the "I know you are but what am I" defense? Nice work.

Turk - just in case you don't check the link.
This Lose guy can really write:

"....characterizing both organized religion and emergent Atheism as distinct faith traditions invites a measure of mutual regard and even respect that is sorely lacking in present discourse. Professing belief in God, as well as rejecting such belief, each requires equal measures of imagination and nerve. As it turns out, doubt is not the opposite of faith; certainty is. For this reason, we can hold out the hope that religious and non-religious believers alike may recognize in each other similar acts of courage and together reject the cowardice of fundamentalism, whether religious or secular." -david lose, Huffpost-

Turkle, you and I have fought this atheist/Atheist battle before on CFN. It may be best if we respectfully disengage.

And I do believe that our new Mrs. Beasley may be a new alias for TootSie/Lil'Jim/numbnumb/nutsnuts - perhaps. We shall see.

What say you, Ms. Beasley?

"I watch Obama and Clinton give their speeches on human rights, and protecting civilians, and democracy, and the US standing for all that, and I think - they can't possibly believe that! How can they say that shit with a straight face, knowing that their policies are meant to do the opposite? Knowing that our police state is no beacon to any informed person of the Earth?" -Wage

Yeah, Wage, pretty abhorrent (not to mention bone-chilling). I guess this is the "character" of corporate servants and their overlords.

Now I may be assuming too much, but I'd say those of the Hillariac persuasion live in such an insulated bubble, that they never hear what WE might think [or have to say to] THEM. Might be a stunner, I don't know...

Well, most Americans couldn't handle hearing about the brutal realities of what it actually takes to supply them with 25% of the world's resources, so what do you expect?

"Prog! Read the reviews of "Into the Cannibal's Pot" - vlad -

Vlad!! I read them. I also found the author for us.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilana_Mercer
Smart woman, Ilana - you'd agree with her much more than you would disagree. And she's Jewish - which might make your head spin a little as you agree.

Then here's your other author
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bat_Yeor
on the coming of Eurabia -

So - the "truth (Truth?)" does find free voice on the internet.

=====================
This one post of yours I linked to was quite reasonable, Vlad:
- no attacks on "Black" intelligence
- no attacks on "Black" criminality
- no desire to move "Whites" out of the South

Keep up the reasonable tone, and more people might listen to you and think about what you have to suggest - without the reflexive disagreement that shuts down all thought.

The idea is: do you see world populations that had/have cars, now stop using cars and only use horses. Horses to go to work, school, and shop. I don't think most societies, like Russia, are now only using horses, and candles to light the house or using wood burning stoves to heat homes. I of course, don't mean that there are no people who use horses, candles or wood burning stoves. I meant the ENTIRE country is not going to be using them. I don't think that is ever going to happen. Even if we run out of fuel, even if we run out of electricity. We will move ahead with another more advanced technology.

Think about it. Since Civilization started, it has been a progression forward. Unless the civilization had completely disappeared. Take the Egyptians, they were a very great civilization, and they have stopped building pyramids to bury their kings (leaders).
Weapons: we no longer use spears to kill each other (I of course means entire countries) there will always be groups of primitive people who still use spears of course, but not countries that have "progressed".
Food: We will no longer revert to hunter gatherer societies, because we know how to farm. If we can't farm, then many will die before they go hunting and gathering berries. But technology will enable us to move ahead in that area too.

funny:)

"The world has NEVER gone backward."

The so-called Dark Ages was the entire Western world going backwards from more advanced classical civilizations, unless I've misinterpreted every piece of historical information about that era that I've come across.

"The world has NEVER gone backward."

"The so-called Dark Ages was the entire Western world going backwards..."

===============

Turkle, the Dark Ages in Europe does not equal the WORLD going backwards.

At the time of the Dark Ages in Europe the rest of the WORLD was going forward... in India, in China, in Africa, in the Middle East.

The world was not going backward, only Europe.

Technology has allowed humans to destroy most of the life in the ocean, poison lakes and rivers, create huge radioactive dead zones from nuclear fallout, cause the extinction of thousands of species, create a huge garbage island in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, melt the polar ice caps, accelerate the Greenhouse Effect in the atmosphere, cause desertification across huge swathes of formerly arable land, etc.

So, given the unintended and often severe consequences, how much more "progress" do you think the biosphere can take before humans can no longer inhabit it? Sometimes, I think the ultimate fate of civilization and technology is to eventually wipe out humanity.

Or do you think new technology will always solve the problems that it creates?

For further reading....

Thomas Homer-Dixon, The Ingenuity Gap

and

http://www.ascentofhumanity.com/

(just what comes to mind)

Bye now.

"Either money becomes extremely scarce or the money that's there becomes worthless"! Sure, doesn't matter what the food and fuel prices are if you hadn't any money! Nor if there wasn't any food or fuel available.

Either way, goods and services will be in short supply. I grew potatoes this year. And tomatoes, peppers, turnips, broccoli, cauliflower, carrots, radishes. Harvested pears, peaches, and apples too.

I said "Western world" my dear. But thanks for the correction. :)

The idea that technology always progresses positively and can never go backwards is pretty absurd and easily disprovable.

If there was a worldwide nuclear war, wiping us all out, would a bunch of smoking craters where cities once stood be a badge of technological progress?

Or do you not count the possibly hideous consequences of certain technologies as part of the total equation?

Oh, I forgot to mention the most entertaining scenarios, like the Gray Goo problem. Or what about Skynet?

I had the opportunity to visit both the Occupy Detroit encampment in downtown Detroit, Michigan and the Occupy Windsor encampment across the river. Talk about depressing! All that was missing was the music of Exene Cervenka or Laurie Anderson to make the mood even grimmer. I'll give the Occupy protesters credit. Anyone willing to risk last week's lousy weather and angry Tea Parties to make their point has got courage. Unfortunately, I don't think occupying the deserted confines of downtown Detroit or Windsor is the appropriate location for their message. Instead I propose they occupy the Somerset Collection or the Bloomfield Hills Country Club, where the 1% goes to shop and play, if they want to really get their message out.

Speaking of technology, Turkle I just heard that there is detectable radioactivity in the (Japanese)Toyota imports on the east and West coast. Oh, man and we love sake!--imagine that.

That's kinda cool. I've always wanted a glow in the dark car that gives me testicular cancer.

This is really worth a read....

http://www.ascentofhumanity.com/chapter1-1.php

Apropos to the above conversation about the progress of technology and faith therein.

Yo 03 , I still nave a decent stash of home brew and vino. My next gig is a still? I have the tank and copper coil!!@!@ Uhohuhoh watch list!!!!!revinuers???? 5 bucks a gallon sheeeeeet!!!!!!

What of Communities already in steep decline?
How will they fare in TLE?
Most Black males dont graduate HS and the entry level jobs maybe are going to wetbacks workin for less than minimum!
Unemployment among Black males is 40%?

Oh Vlad, you've done it again.

I'm sure I won't be endearing myself to Jimbo when I point out that it's not "Wretched refuse yearning to be free," but "huddled masses yearning to breathe free." If someone has already mentioned this, I apologize for the duplication.

Every day I would click on my CFN Favorite to see if the ship had arrived for the return trip from the Isle of Elba and today, for reasons unknown, it did. The frigging "Forbidden 403 Error" has such an arcane and permanent look to it.

There's no sense in trying to catch up on all the fuck-ups of the past two weeks so let me just mention, in addition to Jim's misquote above, at 5:12PM today Turkle said "I really could care less" when, of course, he meant he "really couldn't care less."

Now, let's see if I get banned for clicking SUBMIT.

Get serious! The whole point of Ilana's book is Black idiocy and criminality.

Yes she's Jewish. She should know how big a role Jews played in the downfall of South Africa - and how they are doing it here too - altho here, Blacks are just one of their weapons. But don't worry - she's still of the tribe. As the White Nationalist commentator pointed out, she's trying to make Israel out to be the eiptome of Western Culture. So now they need us or now they are us. Before we were just shit. She threw him off her site for bringing up these sensitive issues. Typical Jewish behavior.

Glad you liked the Bat Yeor. She (also a Jew) is an important researcher. The Jews appear now to be very divided on how to deal with the West. Some of them are still gung ho on bringing in as many minorities as possible to hamstring us. The wiser ones like these two have realized that without us, they are doomed.

FIRST: Q! glad to see you man! hope you re back for good, it s been a mess without you

Yeah, Bean said he'd be back. Leave it for one old codger to predict the behavior or another old codger. Go figure!

You can't prove that there is no God. Thus your convicition is just as irrational as our's. You have a huge axe to grind trying to prove the Absolute Nothingness (sounds like Buddhism) of God.

I'm not sure you're smart enough to understand this but: the real purely rational stance is the "don't know" of Agnosticism.

Psychologically it plays the same role for its adherents that religon does. Ever go to a Marxist group? Feel the cultic energy? The strong leader, the group think, the crushing of individuality? Just like the Moonies. Women's Studies, same thing.

"Or do you not count the possibly hideous consequences of certain technologies as part of the total equation?"

-------------

Interesting.

When I hear the phrase "the western WORLD going backwards," the first thing I think of is not technology.

I guess the first thing I think of are things like social organization, food gathering, distribution and sharing.

Don't know if you also consider that to be technology.

In the spirit of the return of Q, I looked up the definition of the word "codger". I was ready to take exception to being called an old codger, although old I may be. But, lo and behold, my dictionary defines codger as "a somewhat eccentric man, especially an old one." Sigh! So I guess I really am an old codger.

So, what does that make you, an old codgeress or perhaps codgress?

BTW, the dictionary says codger may be an alteration of the obsolete word "cadger", a peddler.

Where does the Internationalism end?
geez.....


$20M of your tax dollars spent on Pakistani Sesame Street

and Washington has committed to spend $7.5 billion in civilian aid in Pakistan over five years. a country that hates us!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Francis Collins, the head of the World Genome Project is a practicing Christian. He crushed your punk Hitchens in debate. Hitchens is a witty and well informed men of letters and current affairs. But in the realms of science and philosophy, a lightweight who doesn't know it.

Best response from a liberal yet. You admit biological truth and use it to effect in debate. There is a whole serious of books about blood type effecting what you should eat and even personality traits. The Japanese took the latter seriously at least for a while at the level of pop culture.

So blood types as the basis of human categorization - races! It wouldn't work as well as what we have now in terms of broad biological, psychological and cultural affinities, but it's a valid point of view to a limited extent.

Vlad, you are just trotting out the same decrepit non-arguments that have been shot down and destroyed ad infinitum. Just because I can't prove a negative doesn't mean that I should be completely undecided about the proposition. I'm pretty damn sure that Santa Claus does not exist, nor his workshop filled with elves, or the flying reindeer and sleigh. Of course, I can't prove with complete certainty that he isn't up there in the North Pole, getting ready for Christmas. (Perhaps he's invisible or only children can see him. Maybe he inhabits an alternate dimension.) But I'm pretty damn certain that there is no Santa. (let's say 99.9999% certain) That's the same feeling I have about this silly God business. People made it up, just like parents tell their kids myths about Santa.

At any rate, your rather crude argument for agnosticism is absurd. I do not have time to entertain any and all beliefs of made-up entities simply because I can't construct an air tight logical proof of their non-existence in a few paragraphs. Let's consider the magic pink invisible unicorn currently reading over your shoulder. Are you pretty certain it doesn't exist or are you on the fence about it?

As for your name dropping of Francis Collins, I could really care less what he thinks about religion. He's clearly got it all wrong if he thinks some invisible man in the sky invented the world as his plaything. As a scientific person, he should be ashamed of himself for believing in such hocus pocus. And I'm sure Hitchens destroyed him. He pretty much buries anyone in a debate about religion, mostly because religious types are generally incapable of logical argument on that topic. They go with fuzzy feelings and faith as their "proof" of God (just ask them). Maybe you have a link or something so I can watch Hitchens get "destroyed" myself, rather than, you know, take your word for it (which isn't worth crappola..no offense).

Atheism is a label imposed by religious types to make those who don't subscribe to their fantasies seem like an out group. It is a modern version of the old "heretic" label. But absence of belief in an entity is generally not considered a belief system, especially when said entity is proved by its adherents "faith." Otherwise, we'd be overflowing in names for groups who don't believe in any old thing, like the People Who Don't Believe Vlad Is Being Watched By An Invisible Pink Unicorn Right Now Society. I think we both belong to that club, actually. (Hey, I found something on which we can both agree!)

And as a substitute for religion, atheism is pretty damn poor. It has no meetings, no hand-holding, no singing, no charities, no tax exceptions, no missions to poor African countries, and no warm fuzzy feelings about going to heaven with the harp-playing angels. So tell me again about how it fulfills the same psychological purpose? As usual, I think you've just got your head up your arse. (Atheism and Marxism and Women's Studies....oh my!)

How can Pakistan hate anyone? Countries don't have feelings.

Don't get high on your own supply! ;-)

yeah what he said! eloquent and witty (that means smart, vlad) and i m still chuckling...you have converted me at least to the Pink Unicorn Society- not so sure about vlad; he is partial white unicorns, as he will admit...

my vote is for 'codgerette'...hi myrtle

Welcome back Napolean!

Q.,
Should that happen again, try shutting off your modem. (Not "reset", but unpowered/off.) Go have a cup o' joe and wander the hacienda for 5 or 10 minutes, then power it back up and see if that does it. (Worked for me anyhoo.)
Good luck and good eats!

"Atheism is a label imposed by religious types to make those who don't subscribe to their fantasies seem like an out group." -turk

Yep, lack of belief should indicate that it's not a point of contention; that it's of no concern and something that need not occupy the mind. Being pestered doesn't endear the pesterers to the pestees. (Sorry Q., made-up words are fun sometimes. ;o)

Every group (ESPECIALLY of the religious stripe) needs their "enemy" to justify their existence and cohesion. 'Murkin Krishans are really good at this tactic, but then again, look at the constituency to be indoctrinated! Piece o' cake. Turn on the 700 Club and let's pretend that gawd luvs us as much as that rich "pastor" luvs our tithes...

...Out of the gawd-bubble and into the fire.
Greece is going down, one way or t'other.

The Papandreou Ploy [as it will come to be known] to absolve himself of responsibility for his country's economic collapse was pretty laughable.
Referendum and general-firings. Oopsie.

Others (in Europe and 'Murka) are steamed that the deal didn't go down, and that the "assets" might soon be revealed as bogus bets on the Brooklyn Bridge.

Force-feeding is "on the table", as the asshats say.
Somebody's been having conversations with the military (or they've been conversing amongst themselves), and that seems to be when the big fun always starts.

Turkle,

Thanks for the Ascent of Humanity link. That's one for JHK. He should take a look at it.
I guess one belief system replaces another.

As I have often said, we are one sad little critter and the only one on earth that has no clue what we're doing here. Every other creature works withing it's environs and contributes to it in some way. Sure the physical world is a tough place to survive, but the more we try to free ourselves of it the more blow-back we will suffer.

Case in point is the weather and the subsequent power outages we are experiencing. Many people living in the burbs of NYC are realizing that this is the new reality. Having grown up in the area, I can only say I never saw so much system failure every times there's wind in the mix.

No matter how much progress we think we've made, there's always unintended consequences of how our activities affect the natural world. We've waged the war and we are not going to win.


O3- whazzat (vernacular, Q no need for correction) about military? you mean intervention, perhaps to make greece pay up? i ve heard nothing- admittedly i tend to avoid M$M; and wouldn t expect any reporting from them anyway unless after the fact...any clarification would be appreciated

I feel sorry for Jim, having to travel all over the world and put up with such inept service and all those derelict airports. Fortunately for Jim, when the oil and credit soon run out, those days will be over.

Sorry, CF,
I'm sure I gave the impression of "outside" shenanigans, but it was "internal". (Impending military coup, or the suspicion of one.) Now, as to who would be instigating said shenanigans is always up for investigation, no?

I don't think the Greeks would take too kindly to a military occupation by foreign troops. (That seems kinda universal. ;o) The Nazis weren't very welcome, as I recall.

...At any rate, "the markets" are not liking these little shocks of instability. I can't even begin to guess how this [glimmer of sovereign default and political turmoil] will be frantically obscured by the blizzard of bullshit we'll hear shortly.

aaaahh, bach! that makes sense- although can you imagine the shit-storm that would arise? the people don t seem to be in favor of much more in the way of shenannigans...time to break out the brooms (read torches & pitchforks) eh, cartman?

i call upon our Q-check to tell us if there should be one or two 'n's...

Oh, that would sound nicer as: "a bodacious, bumptious, blinding blizzard of bullshit".

Fan's a-whirrin'; fecal matter's a-flyin'.

At the risk of being on the watch list, I have a nice copper still. Unfortunately, I don't have a recipe I am confident in or experience in brewing. I have been studying on it and the brewing/ fermentation seems to be the hardest part if you want a good product. Any suggestions for me.

The point of learning to think in ternaries, in turn, is not that ternaries are good and binaries are bad; it’s that learning the trick of ternary thinking widens your range of options.
-------------------------------------------
Pretty much what I've been trying to get across here for about four years -"don't limit you options". Well said, and thanks for the link, reminds me of the Buddhist saying; "you don't have to believe everything you think" The greatest value I've learned from years of meditation is to introduce a little space between "me" and my thought, so I don't confuse the two.

Greer is a genuine thinker, even if he is a little academic in his approach. Everyone here should read that posting IMO, so I'll repost the link.

http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com/2011/10/trouble-with-binary-thinking.html

So why the disparaging remarks? I have a diverse portfolio for the future (stocks, bonds, annuities,commercila real estate, residential real estate, etc) AND I have a working, soon to be commercial permaculture farm. Think I am a KOOK?
-------------------------------------------
No, and I never suggested Tripp was either. Open mindedness IS key IMO, and something that has to often been in short supply around here. Nothing wrong with a spirited exchange of ideas however, that's what led to that post Tripp left for me.

Atheism is not a religion. It is the absence of and refutation of religion as a way of thinking.
-------------------------------------------
I think what he is trying to say is that many atheists become as closed minded as there counterpart, turning non-belief into a belief system. It does happen....and frequently. For example, many atheists turn science into a religion, not understanding its limitations.

So, given the unintended and often severe consequences, how much more "progress" do you think the biosphere can take before humans can no longer inhabit it?
------------------------------------------
Beneficial I think, to keep in mind Humans are not some alien from another planet (at least as far as I know) "WE" are part of the ecosystem as well, and that system will deal with us when it becomes necessary.....or we will change as it becomes necessary, since adaptation is are secret to survival.

I'm not saying you shouldn't recycle your beer cans, (I do) just that you should take the whole "save the world" argument with a grain of salt. Some technology is good....and some bad; and which it is, is mostly a matter of conventional not inherent values.

The book is eat right for your type, tried it but not too impressed. The best food for everyone is from your own garden and not cooked if you can handle it.
BLood type along the Japanese model works for me, the race thing is not a reliable predictor in my expereince as a business owner. I have met lazy mexicans, brilliant blacks and impoverished Jews so not a very solid model.
The liberal handle you tried to smear me with, I assume that is an insult? As I have never been associated with any party, am a rock solid lone hunter and beleive the only thing you ever give someone is a job please expalin what a liberal is so I can decide if I am one.

As Noam Chomsky frequently points out, whenever a country actually does something democratic (like letting the people decide whether to let the banks own the place) the powers that be (or, as they like to call themselves, the "international community") screams like stuck pigs.

How dare the Greeks hold a referendum! How dare they let the people democractically (from the Greek word for rule of the people) decide their own future!

It would be hysterically funny watching the leaders of the "free world" scream about the impudence of Papandreu, if it wasn't just another sickening example of their hypocrisy.

The "international community", which ranges from the US and Israel, at times, to the US, Israel, and NATO, at others, would surely be pariahs to the non-international community, if humans were rational creatures, given to understanding events without emotional manipulation.

I knew you were for real or I would not have interacted with you. I went to a Bioneers Conference and met a bunch of Tripps. What Tripp is onto is part of the future for sure and I admire the effort he puts into it. Tripp could make better $$ right now in the hydrocarbon economy but is pioneering instead. My apologies if I offended you Dale.

TRIPP: learning the trick of ternary thinking widens your range of options.
-------------------------------------------
DALE: Pretty much what I've been trying to get across here for about four years -"don't limit you options".
-----------------------------
WHITMAN: I am large. I contain multitudes.

--------------------

I've been pushing expanding CFN consciousness to include other points of view for more than four years, and being called names for my efforts. Now that Greer is saying it, should we call him schizophrenic, too?

Back in the 80s, when I was working in a San Jose nursery, at a hospital on the east side, I heard that the US military was working on a bio-weapon targeting groups by their blood types.

This was when Reagan was allowing millions of Vietnamese to enter the country.

We tested blood types on the moms, checking for rH incompatibilites.

Most Vietnamese seemed to be B+, while most Americans were O+.

Great! I'm B+. That means I'm targeted with the Vietnamese, if they ever fall out of favor again.

On the other hand, if the plan is to thin the herd in the US, I may be OK.

Greece is so screwed. If they don't take the current deal they can't pay their bills or borrow a dollar starting the next day. If they take the deal they owe the IMF a pile of $$ they will never be able to repay and become a ward of the New World Order. USA is about 2 years behind but our fate is already sealed too.

I read the article, and what I got out of it was that ternary thinking was an exercise that you did to show yourself that there are more than only two sides to many problems, and that it was exhausting to try to use it on every damn thing that came along.

It reminds me of people pointing out before the US invaded Iraq that the two "sides" presented in the corporate media were very limited. The "right" said - "let us invade, bomb and take over their country". The "left" (as defined by the corporate media) said "No, let us continue to starve them into submission".

The real left, the ones that called for stopping the siege, and leaving the Iraqis alone? That view was not considered in the mass media.

You have a habit of presenting the opposite side of a two sided argument. I don't think that's what he had in mind.

But I could be wrong.

Or, they could do like Argentina or Iceland, and say screw you all, we're doing our own thing.

Also, Malaysia, as I recall.

Funny that you should bring that up, in a discussion about binary thinking.

The US could issue its own currency, instead of borrowing it, and use it to pay people to do useful work, loan it at no interest to actual people, instead of Wall St., and so put people to work without involving runnning money through giant corporations that have proven to have no interest in 1) performing useful services or 2)employing American labor.

Nathan,

Please tell me how the world's most lethal, vicious and experienced - spell that SEASONED - is somehow analogous with Greece?

The U.S.A still has more than a few of these types left:

http://videosift.com/video/George-C-Scott-as-General-Patton-Opening-Speech

Seasoned vicious what?

"Get serious! The whole point of Ilana's book is Black idiocy and criminality.
Yes she's Jewish."
- vlad -

Vlad, we're not in South Africa. I'm in Georgia and you are in Washington, Oregon, or Idaho somewhere. I haven't read her book. You haven't either. One of us needs to - rather than go by reviews.

BUT - I very much doubt that Ms. Ilana Mercer leads every chapter and most every point - as you and your white separatist organizations tend to, by saying one of the following:
1. Blacks are inferior genetically
2. Blacks are genetically prone to criminality
3. Blacks are genetically inferior

The "standard?" counter-argument is that - Blacks present higher criminality, etc - because of slavery, Jim Crow, etc. etc.
You need to consider the possibility that the "STANDARD?" COUNTER-ARGUMENT IS CORRECT!!

Because otherwise, Vlad, you're not helping any of us where we live, now.

=========================
Bottom line -
Your vision of a "White" region of the former US.
And a "Black" region of the former US.

Has a probability of occurrence of near ZERO.
=======================
Stopping or slowing LEGAL and ILLEGAL immigration into the US - now, that WILL eventually have to occur for global environmental reasons - unless the whole World falls apart first.

White supremacist posturing in the US makes examination of immigration assume unnecessary connotations.

End of rant.
Thank you.


Sorry Nathan, I omitted military. My point is this: when things get dire enough, the country with the most lethal military will eagerly go to war. That's why the Greek comparison is false.

Do you doubt this?

Wage,
About the Greek situation. Yeah, they are playing fear factor here once again. If the Greeks don't go along with the giant global fraud, all our economies will fall apart.

Sound familiar? That's exactly what they said about TBTF banks in 2008. That's why they got in total $23 Trillion and were not broken up, only to set in motion Bubble 2.

Would be great if they were to follow Iceland and help push this criminal system over the cliff.

With so many US citizens disenfranchized, I would say many have nothing to lose.

Oh, but our talking heads would...

Hey Vlad is the Gerogia boy/girl right are you espousing segregation? How old are you out of curiosity? I was in school in Athens Georgia when schools were desegregated. Pretty rough times.
I do like the idea of the USA splitting into sovereign states though as I hate to see places like Texas have alot of votes in the House when VT has only 1. So I would vote yes for disolving the union but don't get the point of segregation.

wage- what do you think about a universal credit system whereby one volunteers through a labor exchange doing something appropriate to your skill level/experience- of course there would have to be graduated levels of return and time spent, tied to the difficulty or onerousness (Q?) of said job...i know this is a bare-bones description of the concept, and wouldn t be easy to "sell" ha ha, but the point would be to make more of a level playing field in terms of what people have being directly related to what they are willing to do for others; and would eliminate the entire class of speculators and money changers who have fucked everything up royally already for those of us who do work for a living...gotta love that part, huh? gimme your 2%

ps,
Just got a message today from another retoucher I worked with a few years ago where we were all laid off that he was just laid off from a place he had been working at for a few years.

Just another example of how dysfunctional business is.

You have a habit of presenting the opposite side of a two sided argument. I don't think that's what he had in mind.
-----------------------------------------
My argument with Asoka has to do with his admission here once, that he said things and took positions here he didn't really believe in, just to get people all excited.

IMO, that's the worst thing about the internet and blogs, too much bullshit...so why take pride in adding to it?

If you can't be sincere, then just read and keep quiet. Now....some people might be better off keeping quiet even when they are sincere, but that's another issue.

DOn't even see the correlation BS. If the Chinese opt out of the next Treasury auction what are you gonna do shoot them? I quit buying treasury bills after the Tea Party republicans decided the USA could logically default on its debt. If the USA can't float the Treasury auctions we end up short by about the combined amount of the entire defense budget and the entire Social Security budget for any given year. You wont be able to afford to buy a bullet to shoot the Chinese with.

"I think what he is trying to say is that many atheists become as closed minded as there (sic) counterparts, turning non-belief into a belief system. It does happen....and frequently. For example, many atheists turn science into a religion, not understanding its limitations."
-dale-

BINGO, Dale, that's EXACTLY what I was trying to say.

Sounds like socialism, CFT!

Yes, labor is the source of all wealth, and exchanging labor is a good idea, since our complex society could provide a very comfortable living for all, if all contributed to the work.

We, of course, would have to localize, and downsize, so that we could live within our plantetary means.

But most of us are happy right now, with food, shelter and entertainment.

Only the 1% seems to be insatiable in their greed. So we need to change our society so that the sociopaths can't profit from the tendency of the rest of us to get along to go along, happy with our beer and TV, while they destroy the planet.

No matter what your life view is watch the movie

What the Bleep do We really know? Quantum physics bends all minds.

Alot of the 99% pay for cable TV, make up, 4 wheelers,Music CD's, internet, restauraunt meals, etc and then complain there is no money for health care or savings or..... I believe that is entitlement or greed also.

Testing,one,two,three.Just checking if my funzel is still lit or "banned".

The computer I'm using opens up to MSN news.

How depressing! Most of it is fluff, referring to people I've never heard of, including sports and movie stars.

Today, though, they had an article on the Oakland protests, saying that a few of the "protesters" started a riot last night.

See, I immediately think "agent provocateur", but I read some of the comments, and I really think that Americans are idiots, and there is no hope.

But maybe it's controlled, because a lot of the comments were "collapsed by the community" (which is funny, if you think about it. A General Assembly of commenters? Except that the General Assemblies allow all speech). Then I would read reactions to the disappeared comments, and it sounded like the "collapsed comments" were supportive of the Ocuupy Movement.

a friend of mine pointed out once that if you tell a little kid that there s a great big invisible dude in the sky who is watching everyone, and is in charge of making everything happen, then it s pretty hard to convince him to think for himself once he has "growed up"...i thought immediately that (a) it sounds like a pretty astute observation of events; and (b) how incredibly thankful i am that my parents left me alone to be a kid, and only told me what they believed when i was old enough to ask questions about god, myself... not that it made much difference, but they had evolved to a mix of southern baptist, zen buddhist, and respect for Mother Earth...neat, huh? oh and i don t know what the proper greek or latin word might be for 'i don t give a fuck' is, but when i tried to get religion as a teenager, i couldn t get past the hypocracy of the first page: "all the plants AND ALL THE HERBS are yours to use for food and medicine, to benefit from" then they make you put your hand on this book and swear by it, when you are in trouble for following orders??!! FUCK OFF!! oh, did i fail to mention we were "hippies"? any way, i guess i can safely say it didn t quite take...sorry for the rant, CF'dN, that s obviously a nerve for me...

Radiation........
Formerly I bought Dulse, I see its not on the shelves and I was told...'We dont want to bring in Japanese food Imports'!

Hitchens is similar to Jared Diamond, a 'name' writer who has debatable facts and theories.

Yes, a lot of the 99% pay for things that I disapprove of personally.

However, that is not why they can't afford health care or savings.

If there were 100 people in the US and the GNP were $100, the bottom 40 people would share 20 cents, or 1/2 cent apiece.

Say they took that 1/2 cent and bought meth. Well! That would, indeed, be a silly and wasteful use of their half cent.

It would, however, NOT be why they are poor.

That would be the $80 going to the few on top.

dale said: "My argument with Asoka has to do with his admission here once, that he said things and took positions here he didn't really believe in, just to get people all excited. "

===================

Basically you are correct, but I would rephrase it a bit.

"Asoka takes positions he doesn't believe in and says things just to get people to go beyond thought."

Beliefs are all in the head. Beliefs are all just mind-stuff. It does not matter what you believe. The Buddhist goal, which I share, is to reach a state of no-mind, beyond beliefs.

So "taking positions" and "saying things" in which I do not believe is just one way I am trying to shake loose from the beliefs that were drilled into me through a religious and cultural conditioning all grounded in Aristotelian logic. ("a thing cannot be both A and not A") I have openly promoted epistemological pluralism.

I was honest enough to make this clear. I am not trying to manipulate anyone into believing anything. Just the opposite.

I am trying to become a joke unto myself and believe I am succeeding. Another belief... see?

Peak oil, immigration, Greece, Iceland, debt represented by electrons on a computer screen... all part of a cosmic joke. I have not forgotten how to laugh.

And if oil were priced accurately, there would go the four-wheelers!

And I, for one, would be thrilled.

Interestingly, we used to get a lot of four-wheeler crashes from the southern counties, because we have orthopedic services at my hospital. Total idiots will put their three year old on a four wheeler with their eight year old, because they're drinking beer and it seems like a good idea.

The last one I remember was someone who complained about having to drive all the way to our hospital, because they couldn't afford the gas.

So now they can't afford the gas for the four-wheelers either? Or, when they crash, they just go have it splinted at the local hospital, and follow up later?

I don't know. I haven't even thought about it, until you brought it up.

Turkle already answered that simplistic argument, so favored among the religious -

"And as a substitute for religion, atheism is pretty damn poor. It has no meetings, no hand-holding, no singing, no charities, no tax exceptions, no missions to poor African countries, and no warm fuzzy feelings about going to heaven with the harp-playing angels. So tell me again about how it fulfills the same psychological purpose? "

So where do atheists gather weekly to do the above in the name of science?

hey boss, you might check out the PBS doc, "the last one", about an actual 'shiner who got caught by the revenooers, in east tennesse i believe, back in 94...the filmmakers somehow got permission to make one last run, presumably for posterity even if you don t learn everything you need, it is eddifying and entertaining...

Religion.
Visitors of this site, per my understanding, are aware of bleak human landscape of endless consumers/shopers in this country. Majority of them go to church every Sunday... Now, you got the picture?
On one side there is, say, tormented Kierkegaard strugling to live 100% life as a christian who spent entire adult life and missed ordinary human joy just to grasp Avram-Isac ultimate fate paradox and on other side there is ordinary american fatso walking with swagger with dozen bags through shopping mall. Got it?
In my old country I do not remeber dating a girl who would not know by hart a dozens of poems and they would not be necessarily and obviously into art - jast a reg girls.
While ago, when they pulled out dead sailors from Kursk sub one thrid of them had a notebooks with their own poems written in their pockets.
So not being loud "religious" they would be labeled as a soulless in country where oily spark plug is before Jesus by any measure.
Religion is one of ultimate expresions of human spirit, next to art, play and philosophy and I would add math and sience.
I remeber saying: "If everything goes wrong in your life God has chosen you for himself" which can be scary if one transltes it into: "If you are good for nothing you hang to Jesus as for the dear life" which one can see watching TV Ev's.

Wage said: "So where do atheists gather weekly to do the above in the name of science?"

-----------------

Wage, I'm not sure if this is a real question or a rhetorical question.

If it is real, then one answer might be in the meetings of "Free Thinkers" which I have found in many communities where I have lived. They are atheists. They meet regularly.

Check out nobeliefs dot com (I'm afraid to put in the URL)

Perfect segue from my last post, by the way. Thanks.

Hey, lbendet, did you see the Keiser Report?

They're talking about the Greek shakedown, and Stacy mentions that Iceland didn't escape after all! Follow-up next week.

Anyway, it's pretty good, as always.

http://maxkeiser.com/tag/keiser-report/

Thanks for an answer to the first part of the question, Asoka.

Way to ternary think! Continue the exercise, please, and answer the rest.

Income disparity in the USA for sure. My rant was actually anecdotal. We always pay livable wages at our company and I can't tell you how many folks we have had making $50K/year, with an $8K 4 wheeler and $300/0z weed but no health care or $5 in the savings account.

Great post balkan I love it. I am not fond of the easy religions myself. By easy I mean the faiths where you can be the biggest asshole to slime the planet but you accept Jesus as your savior and go to heaven for eternity. Heaven could really be a living permanent hell based on the entrance requirements.

Can you describe the Japanese blood type model a bit?

A Liberal is someone who believes that Man is basically good and society perfectable thru social engineering. Now it is a word that is always changing - obviously J.S Mill didn't mean it that way at all. What is changing or moving towards? Communism obviously.

Conservatives believe the Man is fallen or largely bad - though many (not all) are reedemable thru effort both personal and societal with religion, spirituality, and morality playing a role at both ends.

Liberalism as it now stands says that nurture or environment is everything and nature or genetics is nothing. This trope helps them in their quest as absolute social engineers. As you hopefully know - it is nonsense. IQ is over 50% inherited. Blacks have failed academically despite heroic attempts by Whites to raise them up to our level. When you say you have met briliant Blacks, you are engaging in typical liberal self delusion. Sure I have too, but we're talking about averages here not exceptions.

Why separate? Because Blacks and Mexicans have different cultures than we do. And if you read Plato, Aristotle, More, Machiavelli, Aquinas, Jefferson, Adams, Madison et al, you will not find one word about Nations having more than one culture in them. It's a canard, just nonsense filtered down from the Elite via the great Foundations into the University system. It is their way of paving the way towards the destruction of America as a White, Western Nation and the creation of a polygot, multiracial/cultural Empire - a Tower of Babel that will not stand. The opposite is fine - separate nations can exist in the same culture like the Greek or Italian City States, the Orthodox Nations, etc. But many cultures within one Nation? No. It only works as in China when the other groups are small and weak. The biggest one, the Turkish in the West - is making more trouble all the time.

Yes we took in Whites from all over and made them Americans. That's when we were strong and they were all White and Christian to begin with. And - we demanded that they so change. There is no such demand now nor could it be fufilled. Sometimes people say, "Well look how hard it was to Americanize the European immigrants" - as if to say that it can be done to Mexicans and Blacks. No. It was hard with the Europeans when we were strong. It is impossible now to do a much harder thing when we are weak. It fits: overestimation of strength is a classic delusion of dying Empires.

Btw, Libs aren't consistent: they champion Darwin and genetics to trash religion and forget about them when race comes up. Then resurect them when gays say they "are born this way".

The pure Negro IQ is a mindblowing 70. Afro-Americans have an IQ of 85 due to the admixture of White blood. Look at great Black Americans of history - very light. As the great pure blood Marcus Garvey said when he dropped into the New York NAACP - "They're White". He knew that they were a Communist Front created and funded by the Jews. You can google that if you don't believe Garvey or me or I.

Any ideas about an internet Hindoo Astrology reading? Just say no if you have none. A good No is a joy forever. I'm asking several people but I would take your reccomendation above any because of your Knowledge and your track record of sound judgement.

Oh, I could do the anecdotes too!

I have a co-worker who I'm fond of, but oh my god! What a spendthrift!

She's married to a guy who inherited lots and lots of farmland, which he used to farm. The land has been in his land for generations, and if you drive around that area, you see his surname on every mailbox.

But, first he quit the corn, because it wasn't profitable (and we had an interesting exchange once, when she went off on poor people and how much she hated them [she's a staunch Republican] and how fat they were and why should she pay for their obesity and their healthcare and she didn't know who to blame, and I said "Earl Butz" and she stopped dead in her tracks. I explained the farm subsidies to her, and she said "Yes!! We quit growing corn because we were losing money")

Anyway, he bulldozed his apple trees, and then quit the hogs, and then the wheat, and then he was only growing hay for his own cattle, although he made pretty good money selling hay. But she talked him into selling bits of land at a time, and then the square baler, so he only does round bales.

Anyway, to me, the very worst was when he sold acreage to buy matching four-wheelers for himself and their two sons.

Now, he's working for a cement company and she's happy, because he's going out to work everyday instead of working for awhile and then drinking beer down at the feedstore.

And they don't have much land left.

I am horrified by all of it.

"A Liberal is someone who believes that Man is basically good and society perfectable thru social engineering."

Well, Vladdie, how come....

a) You're always trying to paint me as some kind of arch-Commie liberal.

b) I don't believe either of those things.

WOW! Have to say I am none of the above then. I basically don't believe in any of the things you mentioned.
Having seen that dogs can pass behavior genetically as can butterflies and hummingbirds I do not see how behavior can be purely environmentalso I do agree there. I am not sure how "an averge person" has ever entered into a decisiopn i have made in my life, all decisions are personal. As far as ethnic purity of a culture goes, picture this. No blacks means no music or sports as those areas are dominated by blacks. No Mexicans, no fruit or vegetables as those folks dominate that market. etc, etc. All white could be pretty boring old boy.
I know of a racist who made a world changing blunder using your exact plan when he sent Albert Einstein to the USA.

Belief in God is far more cogent than believe in Santa Claus. If you can't see that, you are a retard. I admit there are religious ideas that are pretty Santaclausy. But the use of egregious examples does not refute the thing itself. Get a book on logic if you don't get that.

Nations have ALWAYS had multiple cultures within them. What complete idiocy you spout here.

That is depressing man. No happy ending there.
The measure of an event is not what you gain by it but what you become by it. They became impovershed in spirit.

So let me get this straight.

God created the universe in a week. (Okay, six days. He rested on Sunday.) Then he conjured up Adam out of the mud, and when he Adam got lonely, made Eve out of his rib bone. They lived in the Garden of Eden for awhile, sans bad things like cancer and loud car stereos, until Satan, disguised as a snake, tricked Eve into eating the forbidden apple from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Consequently, Adam and Eve were kicked out of this garden, and then a bunch of other things happened to their descendants (see the boring parts of the Old Testament).

Then, approximately 2000 years ago, God decided to send his son to earth as a man to redeem humanity's sins. This Jesus fellow was a really rad dude who could walk on water and heal the sick and so forth. The Romans/Jews didn't like hippie Jesus and his peace and love philosophy too much, so they crucified him. Then he rose from the dead, passed through hell, and he's now up there in Heaven. Now we can all get into Heaven instead of being automatically damned to Hell or wallowing in purgatory or what have you, that is, if we believe the above.

And that's supposed to be cogent? I don't care how many morons believe this crap. It doesn't even pass the laugh test. And I am a "retard" for not believing this hogwash? I'm more inclined to believe that a fat man in a red suit gives presents to children on Christmas.

Good point: the hard core Communists view Man as evil, a mere robot to be programmed, or animal to be trained. You may be of this ilk. If so, Congratulations you are destined for greatness! Liberalism is the descent to Communism not the thing itself. And even when attained, the apple is still shined and polished for the benefit of the masses.

Oh btw, about Moochele (Rush!), you demolished a straw man. I admitted that she was a looker altho a bit over the hill now. I merely commented that she's obviously a big time bitch. I don't envy the B boy at all with that one. She has melt downs on a regular basis, apparently. Early on during the campaign, she started complaining about Barack publicly. She was told to shut up and she did. Now under the stress of the failing administration, she is starting to act up alot at the White House.

You forgot the part where this omnipotent being had to impregnate a virgin to get his son onto earth.

And the only way the omnipotent being could change human behavior was to allow his human son (wasn't this miscegenation?) to be tortured and murdered.

And in honor of this torture and murder, Christians wear little torture device models around their necks to this day.

Not the ones that last, Turk. Attaturk is commended by Nationalists for giving up more territory than he needed to - to keep Turkey Turkey, Turkey. Then the Greeks were ethnically cleansed from the coast with extreme brutality.

Japan has lasted for thousands of years and could last thousands more. Think they would if they brought in millions of Blacks or Whites? Think hard boy. Argue this way with some East Asians: Koreans, Chinese, Japanese, etc. They will give you a funny look and change the subject. It's a cultural trait: East Asians don't argue with craziness. They Know. You Don't.

We can never do anything right by Blacks. Every concession is just the begining of the next one. They need their own Country. The best among them, like Farakahn, would accept this gladly. As you know, Jefferson, Lincoln, and most of the Greats wanted to send them back to Africa. Their design were foiled by the Mercantile interests. And now it's too late. Thus we must do right for both them and ourselves. They can't stay with us because they can't compete with us - and that produces parasitism, resentment, hatred, and violence. The benefits they bring are small compared to the problems. They have a great musical heritage that has been brought down to the corruption of rap.

Note: they themselves know that their gifts: music, sports, dance, performance art don't match up to what we have. They know what's impoportant even if you don't. Thus they bristle when this subject is brought up.

I have to take this, since Q is either banned again or asleep at the wheel.

"Interestingly, we used to get a lot of four-wheeler crashes from the southern counties, because we have orthopedic services at my hospital." - Wage

You mean the cause of all those four-wheelers crashing was the fact that your hospital has orthopedic services? Just completely turns around the whole cause/effect thing, doesn't it?

Listen to your own hatred! You are now better than the Christians who have give you a hard time. I can easily imagine you approving of the kind of persecution of Christians that took place in Russia and China. Repent!

Hatred? Go splash some cold water on your face, buddy. He's just making a funny.

Thomas Horner Dixon sets up a straw man and knocks it out of the park!

It is science which helps us explain the importance of the interlocking web of life, and how disrupting one part can affect other parts. Maybe those with a faith in technology, who read Wired! and such, believe that we will invent our way out of this, but many of us don't.

I have brought up Marx's views on ecology before, but it seems appropriate to mention them again. From a review of Marx's Ecology and Marx and Nature-

"Marx and Engels were deeply concerned about the impact of industry and technology upon nature. Marx attacked "Prometheanism" when his contemporary Proudhon promoted it. Engels discussed the danger, revealed in one historical civilization's collapse after another, of human hubris in dealing with nature: the idea that man could ever dominate and control nature rather than understand better how to sustainably conform to its laws.
Following agricultural scientists James Anderson and Liebig, Marx and Engels grew to understand that the concentration of population in the industrial metropolis not only impoverished and crippled the lives of the workers trapped in this polluted and congested environment. Under this bourgeois-metropolitan regime, the soil also lost its fertility. The nutrients from the food farmed in the countryside were never returned to the land. Instead, they were washed away through the urban sewer system. Thus Marx and Engels demanded that the "the division between town and country" be abolished; that the populations of the "great towns" be permitted to migrate to what Ebenezer Howard would later call "garden cities," with their own cooperatively-owned industry, spread across the countryside. The citizens of these decentralized communes would work the land cooperatively, and the natural nutrients would return to the land from whence they came."

(I quoted Marx to Tripp before about the incredible waste he saw in London, of dumping tons of human fertile waste into the Thames River).

Oh, we're not evil. We're just a bunch of funky monkeys is all.

Um, no. The reason we got the victims of the four-wheeler crashes is because my hospital has ortho. I think it makes sense the way I put it. But I guess Q will make the final determination.

On the other hand, I did say in another comment that the "land has been in his land" instead of "in his family" for generations.

looked to me like they were getting the injuries resulting from the crashes because her hospital had an orthopaedic unit...and maybe the term 'crashes' is in the vernacular sense used at the emergency room; and therefor the invocation of Q was in error...that an accurate assessment, wage?

Franken Corn going on to the shelves this fall. Seems to kill animals so it's a good idea. Chuck and WND knock it out of the park with this one.

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=361333

Thought we were talking Metaphysics not the theology of one individual religion. Two different things. The province of the Intellect is make such distinctions. Can't talk about something if the other person is talking about something else. Guess you realized you were losing and decided to shift your ground...

LOL!

Getting a bit arcane, aren't we?

This sounds like the CFN version of "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?"

But it is an interesting distraction from the certain doom we face when Greece collapses, and the domino effect collapses Europe and then the USA, and then the sky falls, or some such doomster scenario like those I've been reading about for decades.

I suppose I'm supposed to be scared, but my version of "voluntary simplicity" actually worked, in contrary to what Greer said about commercial co-optation. So I'm not scared.

Yes. No one has to teach a retriever to retreive or a pointer to point. But it's a personal decison on the part of the dog each time. They might want to go pee or eat instead. Just so with people: a kid decides he doesn't like math but it's probably because he's no good at it because his parents weren't either.

Everyone thinks they're making personal decisons -and they are. But there are reasons behind those person decisons. Try to see it in yourself. It's easy enough to see it in others and in groups.

What if some blacks want to stay, like say Obama and Herman Cain? Do they still have to go?

hard core Communists view Man as evil, a mere robot to be programmed, or animal to be trained
==

How ironic, this coming from a Vatican sith, because that's exactly the position of the Vatican. A Vatican whose banks subsidized Marx, because for all his correct criticisms, his prescription to the problem is more centralization, which further empowers of the banks the government mafia and their thieving.

So you agree with me that Christianity is intellectual rubbish?

Oh, metaphysics. How quaint. Why do we need that again? I'm not really interested in propositions that can't be falsified, which AFAIK describes metaphysics write large. I'm more a fan of real physics, which is weird and interesting enough already without inserting invented notions into the discussion, like gods and fairies and other assorted horse hockey.

I love making decisions. Peple hire me just to make decisions. I don't ever hear you mention wisdom, just intellect. DO you know the difference? Few do any more.

Asoka,
When you say 'I am not trying to manipulate anyone', I would have to take exception to that just on the basis of your statements in the same post. For example, you say you make false statements to get people to 'go beyond thought'. So….in other words….you say things you don't believe to provoke a reaction hoping to get people to change their way of thinking. Sounds like a textbook definition of manipulation to me!!

I'm also made a little uneasy by your explanations of Buddhism, which I find a little "new agie" or simplistic. I'm not sure I've heard the term "Beliefs are all in the head" from any Buddhist teacher I've met. I think the point most Buddhist thought makes, is that they are NOT in your head and that you don't have to own them at all. Also the way you talk about "going beyond thought" and most egregiously "It does not matter what you believe" smack of nihilism or solipsism when you just toss them around so carelessly. Buddhism is most definitely neither of those. But some of your behavior does suggest you do believe that. I would suggest you leave teaching Buddhism to the qualified.

In any case the reaction I have to someone telling me he's making a joke of himself is….we have plenty of that in the world without anyone trying….so please….just be as real as you can. I can't speak for everyone, but I'd appreciate it.

I'm not sure why some people feel the need to provide a public service of grammatical correction to internet comments. Has anyone told these people about the grammatical atrocities committed in the comments section of youtube videos? Go hence, thou noble grammarians. Someone on the internet hast committed the sin of the double negative!

An extraordinary misandrist. Let's face it: many women hate men, should never get married but do so anyway, can't stand their husband being aroud etc. Imagine supporting such a gorgon and shrew and then upon retirement finding out she how much she can't stand having you around "her" house. Happens all the time.

And that scenario is a bit old hat. The new paradigm is no fault divorce where the woman takes almost all. False accusations of abuse and pedophilia are de rigeur to get him out of "her" children's lives.

The man's revenge is if and when the children realize what a monster she is and come looking for him twenty years later.

Japan is a poor example of racial peace, love, and harmony. The country's history is pretty much one of non-stop war until the modern era. It wasn't even united until the 1500's.

Anyways, your simplistic notion of one race/culture equating to a single nation is an anachronism. There isn't one nation in the entire world that fits your ideal, which tells me that as a general benchmark it is far too simplistic and idealistic, not to mention unworkable.

for what it s worth, you spoke for me on that subject...

Let me guess, Vlad. You're still single?

I'm not on the grammatical bandwagon, Turkle, except when I correct Q ... on a whim.

Your previous comments are noted. Is it possible for someone to not be as real as can be?

Also, I agree with you about the boredom of believing in One God (be it Yahweh, Allah, or whoever), when modern physics offers such a rich mythology of multiple hypotheses with six flavors of quarks, w bosons, z bosons, charged pions, etc.

Physics seems a much more fun belief system, if you must believe in something.

re: The globalresearch article...

There's no 'k' in America, regardless of whatever criticism you're leveling at it or its people. I'm not sure why people on the internet think this is so cute. It just makes the author look juvenile.

As an example of atheism turning non-belief into a quasi-religion, I would suggest the magazine "Skeptic", is a wonderful example.

In its efforts to support whatever is today's version of science as the ultimate truth, or the best truth we know, It can become as dogmatic as the most ardent evangelical.

Skeptic not only dismisses all religion with the same wave of a hand, but most of cutting edge science as well, when it dares to question orthodoxy.

If you need a complete example, you will find them harping relentlessly on the "mind", being an emergent property of the "brain", a contention for which their is absolutely no proof what-so-ever, in spite of 'modern' neuro-scientist maintaining it as a 'belief' for more than 50 years.

There's a fun guide to the religious mythology of physicists (by the Particle Data Group of the Lawrence Berkley National Laboratory) at:

www dot particleadventure dot org

They've got over 300 subatomic particles and new ones are being "discovered" ...

So help yourself to tau neutrinos, mu neutrinos, and all the excited states you can handle, a paradisaical tour for believers in physics.

CORRECTION:
Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory

Wage,

Say it ain't so!!
--No I didn't hear MK about Iceland-- I thought they were getting advice from Michael Hudson about how to not go under by the European banksters.

I'll have to take a listen.

I haven't been able to keep up with my usual blogging and reading. I got snowed by lots of work in a short period of time. I've got to train someone over the weekend, so I'm working on a lesson plan.

After the training I'm planning on going down to the OWSer protest again.

"It can become as dogmatic as the most ardent evangelical"

I seriously doubt that...call me a skeptic.

Science is pretty much the only method we've come up with that leads to the truth. It is pretty simple really. You make a prediction. Then you see if the prediction matches reality by observing it or performing an experiment. Then you go back and either validate the original proposition or modify it and try again. Or you can toss it out entirely (e.g. the moon is made of green cheese). I'm not aware of a better method for determining what does and does not exist. Perhaps you can fill me in.

The main difference between religion and science is that science changes its mind, all the time in fact. Scientists are perfectly willing to jettison old ideas when better ones come along that match the data better (plum pudding model anyone?).

What scientists are not willing to do is admit evidence or propositions that are not falsifiable by experiment. So perhaps that's what you see as dogmatic, but it really isn't. They just generally don't want to waste their time with beliefs that have no basis in material reality.

Well, most of them. There's some weird stuff out there like String Theory, but this is at least motivated by some kind of physical basis, however inaccessible and esoteric it might be.

Bottom line to me is that the religious and scientific methods of arriving at the truth are strictly at odds with each other. Anyone who doesn't think so doesn't understand one or the other very well (or either).

Yes, asoka, because those were all just conjured up out of some crazy physicist's head rather than motivated by experimental data. (end sarcasm)

If you need a complete example, you will find them harping relentlessly on the "mind", being an emergent property of the "brain", a contention for which their is absolutely no proof what-so-ever, in spite of 'modern' neuro-scientist maintaining it as a 'belief' for more than 50 years.

--

If what you label "the mind" doesn't emerge from the physical wiring and mechanisms of the brain, what does it come from?

And I assume you are a neuro-scientist or have at least studied this matter in depth for years?

If not, why exactly do you feel qualified to say that there is "absolutely no proof" of this idea? For someone who is generally not an absolutist (e.g. dale), that is a pretty strong statement.

If thousands of credentialed scientists in a particular field profess to believe in a theory, I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that there is probably some basis in reality for it, however flawed and incomplete the theory may be.

Let's perform an experiment. We stick an ice pick through dale's brain. What is going to happen to your mind, which is apparently not an emergent properly of your brain? I'll give you three guesses.

Or am I missing the whole point you were trying to make?

You ever hear the one about reality being weirder than we can imagine? Well, there ya go...

"I was in school in Athens Georgia when schools were desegregated. Pretty rough times.
I do like the idea of the USA splitting into sovereign states though as I hate to see places like Texas have alot of votes in the House when VT has only 1. So I would vote yes for disolving the union but don't get the point of segregation."
-nathan-

Nathan, small world; I was in Macon, GA at the same time. (91 miles distant, for you non Georgians)
I've posted before about the all male - public - forcefully desegregating - Lanier High School - that I attended.

I say without reservation, and with little exaggeration - that it was like going to school in prison, or in Hell - depending on the day.

Nathan, you want to see the US split, but you're not being clear enough for me to see - as to why you want this to happen. ? ?

Vlad's pretty clear - he wants to give Georgia and most of the Old South region over to a Black Nation run by Farakkan et al.

Regardless of motivations - splitting the States will never happen again, in a substantive way. It almost did in the 1860's, and we'll never know if (my pet theory) that was one of those seminal events that has led to the triumph of Worldwide Global Capitalism and, thus, will lead in time to the death of humanity.

But, anyway, I will GUARANTEE that there are plenty of plans in plenty of sections of the DoD - dedicated to keeping the United States united - regardless of Peak Oil, nuclear warfare, comet strikes, you name ANY disaster.

The US government will fall back on interior supply lines and enforce some version of National unity - for far longer than most of us would believe humanly possible.

"Yes, asoka, because those were all just conjured up out of some crazy physicist's head"

---------------

No, not out of ONE, but many physicists' heads. It is an evolving enterprise, just as religions don't spring from one theologians head. Religions are also evolving enterprises.

There is no real contradiction between authentic religious experience and science. Both involve instrumental injunctions (based on previous understanding), both involve gathering experimental data (e.g. meditation), and both involve communal confirmation of results (usually in a sangha setting).

But, then, I am not a "qualified" Buddhist teacher, so what do I know?

turkle said, "Oh, we're not evil. We're just a bunch of funky monkeys is all."

Yeah, funky monkeys that are doing evil, and as such, are.

Vlad said, "You can't prove that there is no God."

The existence of God is certainly disprovable. The arguments are on the Internet if you chose to look for them. Reductio ad absurdum is my favorite.

"Thus your convicition is just as irrational as our's."

Absolutely not. We're not the ones drinking "blood" & eating His "Flesh" and think there is some magical being who listens to our prayers and arranges miracles. Thats your cohort. Muslims, Jews, Christians... they all worship the same God.

"the real purely rational stance is the "don't know" of Agnosticism."

It is a rationalization, all right, it "rationalizes" the "irrational".

Its a purely political stance. For example, "Agnostics" aren't "agnostic" about Zeus or Athena. They are "Agnostic" in that they are not inclined to confrontation with god believers. They want to be everybody's friend. They want to go to Heaven and not be snared by Satan, purely on the visceral basis of the feelings generated by stories which they were programmed with in childhood by trusted adult advisors, and perpetuated within their social milieu. Yet, the most developed part of their mind doubts. And it doubts for good reason. Hence Agnostics are cowards. They are the go-along to get-along types. The milquetoast, mild, and non-irritating personalities. The glad-handlers. The ignorant, the unknowing, uninterested, the uncreative, the conformers, the perpetrator's glassy-eyed victims....

I appreciate your conviction as a man of faith: a man without need of reason, without proof. That is pure religion. A country of agnostics is somehow less tolerable to me. I would have found Bertrand Russel to be intolerable in person, I'm sure.

I've been an atheist for almost 20 years now. Its been enormously profitable. I also recognize that its not possible for everyone. There is quite a lot of latent mental illness. You hear voices? Sometimes? And of course, the programming we get as children prevents later maturity, even into advanced age. Its not so much a question of innate intelligence; even a moron wouldn't believe such ridiculous stories if he hadn't been abused so thoroughly by adults at critical points of development.

Imagine, being subject to the judgment of a powerful supernatural being whose ambiguous directives you must continuously obey. There is no escape from this tyranny. A more perfect definition of culturally transferable mental illness there never was.

Religion is clearly evil; evil in works. Organized religions were the original "vampire squid sticking its blood funnel into humanity". Nothing else even comes close.

I'm sorry, asoka, but proper science does not admit hallucinations, visions, voices in the head, or other internal religious "experience" as proof of anything. Well, perhaps there are a few narrow psychological studies that look at these things in order to prove some theory about the mind, but using purely internal experience as a normative evaluation of physical reality is a deeply flawed methodology.

If you are actually interested in this topic and not just yanking my chain, please see Demon Haunted World by Carl Sagan, which covers these kinds of false equivalence ideas in detail.

Nice try though.

Very well said, Bustin. But I think being an atheist is not enough. I think rational people need to be firmly anti-theist and push towards legislating laws that criminalize religion pushers as criminal conspirators in a conspiracy of criminal insanity.

so just how, pray tell, is meditation equivalent to gathering experimental data?! and communal confirmation means what, exactly? that smacks of shared hallucination...by all means, clarify

And what is being conjured up out of the resident atheists thimble sized heads, except intolerance and venom? The usual ridicule masking as sophistication. It's always about them, the same way with the Satanista, Reverend LeVay taught that your own birthday is the holiest day. Do what you will, that's what is taught.

Enjoy your belief in nothing except youself.

"....but don't get the point of segregation."
-nathan-

Nathan - I will explain the point of segregation.
Most people, instinctively, want to spend their relaxed, "off-duty?," or "home?" time - near people most like themselves.

The US embarked on a grand experiment in desegregation of PUBLIC spaces - in 1964. I was one of the lab rats in that experiment. Some aspects of it have worked well - some have had horribly negative outcomes. (disintegration of sustainable black communities with intact extended black families makes the short list, here)

Well - whatever, right? We can't stop the clock and we can't reverse the experiment; much though Vlad might want us to.

- But we can observe the segregated housing patterns in any city in the US -
- Or we can look at the racially segregated lunch tables at any high school in America -
- Or we can consider how most members of the US military segregate themselves, off duty -

- And we can conclude that PUBLIC integration does not change people's private behavior.

--------------------------------
And in times of societal stress, when the oil stops flowing or the food trucks stop running -

These innate tendencies to racial segregation become stronger and more powerful.

That's why this is a legitimate topic for CFN.
Though some people hate thinking about it.


"Enjoy your belief in nothing except youself."

No, we just don't believe in unprovable, made-up clap trap. M'k?

If you want some examples of intolerance, just look how the orthodox Christians call Mitt Romney's Christian sect a cult.

See how the Christians love each other? With friends like this, who needs enemies?

We'll leave the big time solipsism and arrogance to the people who believe that an immortal, omnipotent being takes time out of his busy day to personally talk to them and answer their petty little prayers.

Thanks for the thought though.

Turkle, if you are actually interested in this topic, please read Eye to Eye: The Quest for the New Paradigm (Shambhala; 3 Revised edition (January 30, 2001)

I am not trying to impose any belief on you that involves hallucinations, visions or voices.

But I will also not deny valid internal experience based on pure observation of inner states subjected to communal confirmation.

You claim to respect science, yet without having done the experiment, you criticize and label (e.g., those who have done years of rigorous and controlled meditation practice).

I know Lanier well I went to Cedar Shaols and lanier was a sports monster back then. I also used to plaay in the USTA Junior tourney in Macon every June and one of my sisters lived there.
I guess the USA split is a pipe dream but dreams are ok too. I wish to force my will on no one, I do not even want to offend anyone with my opinion. They could be right and I could be wrong, you never really know. I would like to see the states break from the fed. Each state has its own way of doing things. For instance Vermont would never invade Iraq, we had no sub prime mortgage issues or forclosures to speak of, our banks are solvent and the state has a tiny deficit. Thanks to the union we now own a share of all of these problems with the brainless wonders of Nevada, California, Florida, etc. That was my point.

nice try, but there just don t seem to be very many of us around- as evidenced by the countless millions killed, controlled and daemonized, and zillions stolen in the name of the church, to top the list...

Ridicule, intolerance, and venom (along with a lot of humor and sarcasm) is about all I have for Christians who say I'm going to end up eternally burning in the fires of Hell for not cow-towing to their Bronze Age sky god.

Oh, I forgot. All atheists are Satanists. Riiiiight. Is that what your boy-loving Catholic priest told you?

You are absolutely correct on all counts here. I was thinking more of the injustice that would be involved in reinstating segregation as that would be anotther big brother move where alot of folks loose their freedom of choice. Some could argue that segregation infringed on the rights of some but like you said folks can make a chois=ce to be segregated today so not all of their freedom of choice was lost, just an equal share.

"you never really know"

Sometimes you really do know. Do you want some examples?

A friend sent me a new word and its definition. I'm sure many of you will like it.

Ineptocracy - a definition (A government of hope & change and a ring of truth)
Ineptocracy (in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) - a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

Are you a religion pusher? If you're not, than I don't see what's all your whining about.

Here's a new word some one sent me. I think you'll like it.

Ineptocracy - a definition (A government of hope & change and a ring of truth)
Ineptocracy (in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) - a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

Lame. Where'd he get that from? The O'reilly Factor?

Here's a new word some one sent me. I think you'll like it.

Ineptocracy - a definition (A government of hope & change and a ring of truth)
Ineptocracy (in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) - a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

"are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers"

Aren't you on a pension right now, you old fart?

Producers....lol....like the vampire squids working at Goldman Sachs, shorting their own investments....those "producers"?

Here is an example for you turk.

THere are 3 buckets of water and 2 men.
The buckets have hot water in one, cold water in one and warm water in the other.
One man starts with his hands in the hot water, the other man starts with his hands in the cold water. Then both men put their hands in the warm water. One man says the water is hot and the other says the waer is cold even though they have their hands in the same bucket. Positive you are right does not mean anything even if you are right you couold be wrong at the same time. I learned this after two failed marriages and have been happily married ever since.

The job creators could hire more workers if their taxes were lower. What employer pays employees with after tax dollars. Wages are fully deductible for every corporation or sole propreiter. I never hear this fact brought up, what a load of BS.

Thanks for the shout back Nathan.
Lanier HS was renamed Central HS, some while after I left.
I actually, more or less, begged my dad to take a job transfer to get me the H*ll out of Lanier, he did it during my sophomore year. (Thanks, Dad, you may rest in Peace.) ;-)

On a (much) lighter note, for those interested, and since you mentioned sports. Sidney Lanier was a great southern writer and poet. Until Lanier HS was dissolved and merged with the girl's school next door - known as Miller HS for Girls -

Until Lanier was dissolved and renamed Central -
Our sports teams were the Lanier Poets!
Which made for some interesting cheers!!
For historical high school trivia experts:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_High_School_%28Macon,_Georgia%29

Oh, and by the way, I enjoy your writing, but when you say:
"I wish to force my will on no one, I do not even want to offend anyone with my opinion."
-nathan-

I must interject - New to CFN, ain't you, boy?

That's what we're here for - welcome to the brawl.

CFT, would you ask just how observation is scientific. Meditation is observation.

But we don't really have to rely on self-reports. There has been quite a bit of research done related to meditation. For example, this:

PRIMARY OBJECTIVE:

To examine the potential efficacy of a mindfulness-based stress reduction approach to improve quality of life in individuals who have suffered traumatic brain injuries.

RESEARCH DESIGN:

Pre-post design with drop-outs as controls.

METHODS AND PROCEDURES:

We recruited individuals with mild to moderate brain injuries, at least 1 year post-injury. We measured their quality of life, psychological status, and function. Results of 10 participants who completed the programme were compared to three drop-outs with complete data.

EXPERIMENTAL INTERVENTION:

The intervention was delivered in 12-weekly group sessions. The intervention relied on insight meditation, breathing exercises, guided visualization, and group discussion. We aimed to encourage a new way of thinking about disability and life to bring a sense of acceptance, allowing participants to move beyond limiting beliefs.

MAIN OUTCOMES AND RESULTS:

The treatment group mean quality of life (SF-36) improved by 15.40 (SD = 9.08) compared to - 1.67 (SD = 16.65; p = 0.036) for controls. Improvements on the cognitive-affective domain of the Beck Depression Inventory II (BDI-II) were reported (p = 0.029), while changes in the overall BDI-II (p = 0.059) and the Positive Symptom Distress Inventory of the SCL-90R (p = 0.054) approached statistical significance.
CONCLUSIONS:

The intervention was simple, and improved quality of life after other treatment avenues for these participants were exhausted.

I enjoy yor writing also. I do like to share my point of view but I have to get paid to argue is a more accurate statement.

and what is stopping the brainless warlords in fla, ca and nevada (hey, he said it; i only quoted him) from deciding vermont maple syrup is the next liquid gold, and worth an invasion? why, the concept and reality of a union of states... and has kept (at least til now, and at least foreign) jackboots out of our lawns and gardens- yours and mine-? yep, that pesky federal govt...you don t like it, help me fix it! thought i was gonna say leave, didn t you?

I'm not even sure Texas would have invaded Iraq all by itself.

Although it would have been funny as Hell to watch them try. They could use a little dose of humble in TX, in my opinion.

Bossier - you want to weigh in on this??

how is basically agreeing with you whining, i d like to know?!

Mika said, "I think rational people need to be firmly anti-theist and push towards legislating laws that criminalize religion pushers as criminal conspirators in a conspiracy of criminal insanity."

I think the proper place for atheism is in the arena of ideas. Atheists just need to keep pushing the buttons, keep our voices heard and out there, and keep pointing out the hypocrisy and vanity of religion. I don't advocate or believe in a religious statism.

There should not be, for example,

The House voted 396-9 on Tuesday to reaffirm the national motto (In God We Trust) and urged its display in public schools and government buildings after Rep. Randy Forbes (R-Va.) introduced it.

Look at that frenzy of cooperation among the two parties. 396-9!

It proves that the religious are firmly in power, that we have a nascent theocracy of composition, and that irrationality rules the day. If America is imploding, it is because god-believers have had their run of things for a long, long time.

c-temple says "And what is being conjured up out of the resident atheists thimble sized heads, except intolerance and venom? The usual ridicule masking as sophistication. It's always about them, the same way with the Satanista, Reverend LeVay taught that your own birthday is the holiest day. Do what you will, that's what is taught."

Atheism has no doctrine on morality. My ethical arguments are my own, based on widely established concepts of fairness and morality. For example, threatening little children with falsehoods and scary stories, is to me, reprehensible. It doesn't matter whether the bogeyman is Allah, or Yahweh, or Satan, or Buggaboo.

Atheism has nothing to do with moral nihilism. Ethics are rational and explicable and don't need God to justify its precepts.

Is that enough of a clear and concise response to fit in your microscopic brain?


There is a lot of chest pumping about US being "christian" with christian values all ower the place.
Obvious question:
What would be the thing that any visitor would notice right away, at the airport, that make it so? Even better which part of "christian" that he/she observes later would make that they wpould say: "Woow, what a great place!"?


Any takers?

meditation != religion

You're right though. Meditation has very beneficial effects. I took a course on it. Fascinating stuff, but I fail to see that this has anything to say about the truth of religion, as meditation can be practiced completely separate from any religious doctrine.

Interesting. Second time today I have evoked the shoot at it response.

Well, if you turn on the tube, then you'll find a bunch of Christian holy rollers who apparently really need your money.

If you venture outside airport, especially down South, you'll see a lot of Christian religious establishments on tax free property.

Oh, and we sure did bring the fire and brimstone to those Iraqis, didn't we?

chuckle! good one...although you have to admit their avg intelligence must be questioned in light of all the governors they ve elected and then foisted off on the rest of us...no insult intended to the boss, if that s where you reside btw... i m sure from your posts you are a bit smarter than any bush, for example, that i ve seen on the ol' boob tube

???

"Very well said, Bustin. But I think being an atheist is not enough. I think rational people need to be firmly anti-theist and push towards legislating laws that criminalize religion pushers as criminal conspirators in a conspiracy of criminal insanity."

Here again I think energy descent will come to our rescue. If you want to live in an uber-fundamentalist village, no problem. If you want to live in an atheistic one, just as good. How those villages relate to/trade with one another is anyone's guess! I would say to just, personally, be VERY useful.

Boo ya!

But trying to legislate anyone's beliefs is obviously completely out of touch with reality.

And also the norm forever for some stupid reason.

I do believe that the fed is doomed. Too expensive and too many folks under the sane umbrella (330 million?)Right now to balance the budget the fed would have to cut 100% of the defense budget and 100% of social security. Not gonna happen but it reperesents the magnitude of the problem. Soon we will not have the military we have become accustomed to. right now we cant'even afford to clean up the natural disasters as they happen.

I think I've had as much of AT&T as I'm going to allow into my life. I've never spent so much collective time on hold with a corporation to deal with their bonehead (seemingly intentional) errors, always in their favor of course. It'll cost me a comfortable keyboard since we're going to trade in our land line and ISP for an Android, so you guys might see a bit less of me (or I might be a bit more frank when you do). I'm just not going to take their bullshit anymore. I'm not going to waste one more minute of my life dealing with their miserable "business" model, no matter how much convenience it costs me.

Pull your crap on someone else, assholes. I just don't care that much anymore.

Pardon the triple post ... something is becoming effed up again. You would not believe the problems I've had with computers over the past month. I am cursed by electronic gadgetry.

"for an Android"

My condolences...

The meek shall inherit nothing!

In fact, the meek shall inherit nothing but misery! The Vatican and their banks confiscated property, confiscate it back! Take away their exorbitant elite privileges, their tax exemptions, and tax these fsckers out of existence. Stop being passive impotent zombies.

Instead, I just got Ianto Evans' book "The Hand-Sculpted House", and John Michael Greer's latest "The Wealth of Nature: Economics As If Survival Mattered" in the mail. Both look incredible and I wish I could read them both cover-to-cover tonight. Better get going. See you cats later.

Meditation is intentional ignorance in the sense that the goal of meditation is a state of not thinking about anything. Bliss arises from meditation by the ignorance pathway. The human brain is very good at directed attention and pruning perception. We "Remember the hits and forget the misses". Sometimes out of habit, we chew and chew and chew on problems which create stress. Meditation is a practice that breaks that cycle, and allows respite.

The religious among us are by and large prideful, sinful, and self-interested people who think that the Paragons ("Saints") of their faith excuse both the personal and mass effect of their moral and ethical choices.

None of "God's" most brutal and judgmental edicts are applied to believers. The bible is selectively read, interpreted, and applied.

Buddhism will gain many converts up to the end. At least, in Buddhism, one's self-interest is served by not being threatened with eternal damnation... which is not a small reason why they are ascendent.

The reality is that the mass of humanity is dumb and servile; their masters are neither intelligent or benevolent. The moral leadership of the world is morally and ethically bankrupt. The systems put in place are suicidal, genocidal, and ecocidal.

why do you always head straight for social security when you want to "balance the budget"? isn t it the one 'program' that is paid for already? how about cut the fucking trillions of waste and further trillions of unauthorized war spending from the military, reclaim the trillions given to banks/speculators, claim trillions in penalty from said banks/speculators, reclaim trillions in unauthorized tax cuts for individuals, claim trillions in taxes on corporations, claim trillions in penalty from individuals and corporations who have been depressing wages by hiring illegal immigrants for THE LAST CENTURY, and- wait, doesn t that balance the budget? oh, and if you hadn t caught it, 'unauthorized' in this context means voted on by We, The People...

Look at that frenzy of cooperation among the two parties. 396-9! It proves that the religious are firmly in power
==

No, it proves that your corrupt politicians are in the pay of the Vatican, and that these fascist representatives need to be politically reprimanded and the system that allows them to thrive be dismantled and done away with.

I like your blowtorch-style Atheism, but you might rethink your stance on meditation. The goal is not at all to think about "nothing." There are many different kinds of meditation, and the benefits are real. Just a thought...

I wonder how many politicians are actually Christians or just play pretend in order to get votes.

"as meditation can be practiced completely separate from any religious doctrine."

----------------

Agreed, Turkle.

"Religion" in the sense of a belief system is completely unnecessary.

if you ll pardon the terminology, you re preachin' to the choir

There is a city (or not), known by some as Absolute Truth. Others call it Divine Love. It has many names. Nearly every person, quite early on, hears about this city. They are introduced to it, in most cases, through being shown the Map. There is more than one Map. The Map has been interpretted and redrawn many times by ardent “followers” of the Map. They treasure the map, read the map, and identify themselves as believer in the City as the Map prescribes. But they have not considered actually using the map to go to the City.

There are also those who think the Map is a load of Crap. It is just a bloody map for Crap’s sake. Where did it come from? Who can say there actually is this City that the Map depicts? No damn proof--it must be a big goof. Who needs it? Divine Love, Absolute Truth? Get real.

Then there are those scoffers who, for some reason or on a whim, decide to actually take the trouble to go to the City and see it for themselves, to experience it. Many of them decide to take up residence there permanently.

I know. But the choir needs some fire under its collective ass to get it moving. :)

*yawn*

The global output of heat-trapping carbon dioxide jumped by the biggest amount on record, the U.S. Department of Energy calculated, a sign of how feeble the world's efforts are at slowing man-made global warming. The new figures for 2010 mean that levels of greenhouse gases are higher than the worst case scenario outlined by climate experts just four years ago.

You were warned, but you didn't listen. You didn't act. You didn't understand.

Your leaders failed you but you did not remove them. They destroyed your landbase but you didn't stop them. They disemboweled your economy and you didn't notice.

We are now firmly in the exponential growth phase of Clusterfuck, regardless of your personal ability to comprehend it.

From here on out the planet is technically knocked out and its opponent, humanity, is kicking it in the vital organs repeatedly.

There is no white horse on the horizon. Science has nothing that will help you. The doctors have no medicine for a terminal case. This trajectory is lethal to everything more complex than slime mold alive today. The Earth's destiny is scorched rock, a barren, lifeless planet.

Here is your personal situation:
The governments are all against you. Corporations are all against you. Religions are all against you. Hollywood is against you.

Your children will never see a natural sunset, taste clean water or breathe untainted air. Your "career" will not save you, no amount of guns or treasure will save you.

Unbelievable, the banality of evil, the sheer stupidity, the total lack of responsibility, the subversion of ethical and moral reasoning. The total discounting of the future is complete.

Now there are seven billion human beings leveraging all their power toward extracting resources and expect to do so their entire lives, and a system in place to efficiently organize that effort in some of the worst possible ways.

This is going to be one uncomfortable decade, unless you are really good at meditation

vlad, it IS you, isn t it? no one else displays respect for the "V"atican while running it down in that tone of text...shit man, just come clean as the confused racist/atheist/goddie that you are...

Man, what a load of crap. And you wonder why we think religious people are crazy?

yo, i was worried ol' multitudes themselves (sic) had somehow jacked your screen name...

LOL! Only Vlad and I know the truth, and I hope Vlad keeps his mouth shut, because this is too much fun. :)

Comment from Turkle.
Thanks T.
However I Want TAKERS (wink) to answer simple question.

"Meditation is intentional ignorance in the sense that the goal of meditation is a state of not thinking about anything."

OK, one more thing before I run. I think that taking time out of your day to meditate is actually a product of our diconnection with Nature. Or rather, it's an attempt by overly busy people to stop and reconnect with the natural world, in whatever way seems fitting to them. Not that it's not beneficial, considering the circumstances (the data certainly suggest that it is), but in my view, a life lived appropriately is similar to a constant moving meditation, like Tai Chi, and doesn't require time out. Your daily activity just IS, because you live connected to natural cycles. Goes back to the duality question to me, Nature versus Culture. When culture separates one from nature, an overt attemp, like time-out meditation, has to be forced to reconnect with the latter. When non-dualism is achieved culture's normal integration with nature returns, and meditation is no longer necessary.

It's like when Fukuoka said that the yin-yang philosophy is useful for getting someone who has been estranged from Nature back to thinking in more balanced ways, but in the end yin-yang is still dualism, and is useless between there and a truly natural existence.

I think DeCartes really screwed us up.

Eyesore of the Month for Nov 2011

http://www.kunstler.com/eyesore.html

Hey, everyone. It is the crosswalk to nowhere!

Pardon the triple post ... something is becoming effed up again. You would not believe the problems I've had with computers over the past month. I am cursed by electronic gadgetry.

"Now there are seven billion human beings leveraging all their power toward extracting resources and expect to do so their entire lives, and a system in place to efficiently organize that effort in some of the worst possible ways."

Speaking of the ancients screwing us up, I think you could use a revamping of Adam Smith's economic principles. Despite writing the foundation document of western economics, Smith never distinguished goods and services into primary and secondary. Primary goods and services are the good and services provided by Nature, and secondary goods and services are the ones made by man from those natural resources. By giving them equal value, correlated by money, people are duped into missing the fundamental importance of primary G/Ss, particularly the role energy plays in that equation. Energy is the keyhole "good" that permits all others to be exploited. As energy becomes harder to direct into industrial production, the impacts of our economy, from all other secondary G/Ss, will shrink rapidly. Sometimes I think you miss that in your analysis.

I think you and the internet are going to have to agree to disagree, Q.

Well, the blog software used here is pretty crappy, and many people are having trouble with it. So don't take it personally.

In other words, energy is not just one of many goods and services, but THE good that directs all the others. Smith missed that one big time. And fossil fuels are capital, not income. Man cannot exploit the natural world more effectively on less energy. No, the opposite is in fact true. Less energy = less exploitation. Peak oil, the peak supply of our densest energy resource, marked the beginning of Earth's recovery. That's why I celebrate it.

This is a test.

This is another test.

Yes, Q, reading you loud and clear.

Commence pedantic grammatical corrections in T minus 3, 2...

:)

T, the real issue is that of political corruption and influence peddling. Energy supply or lack thereof will not mitigate this problem. This is a societal disease we've been fighting for over 5,000 years. But now we have the internet to make the polit on the acropolis truly universal.

I'm sure every one of you have had this experience: You click on one of your favorites - let's say Dictionary.com or the bank you use to make on-line bill payments - and you get the following message: "Internet Explorer cannot display the webpage." You discover the reason is you've lost your internet connection.

But now I have experienced a new cause for receiving the "Internet Explorer cannot display the webpage" message; I enter a comment in the CFN comment block and click SUBMIT. I receive the detestable message but I check in the lower right corner and see that, contrary to expectation, I have a solid internet connection. I say to myself "how can I get this message when I am NOT accessing a webpage?" So I click on the BACK arrow and I am taken back to the comment block where my comment still sits - unsent.

I move my cursor over to my FAVORITE titled Kunstler Blog and click on it. The machine churns for a moment and up pops the CFN Blog site; the one I was already in. I'm up at the top where the latest essay and Jim's cleanly shaved visage resides and where I am informed there are 471 comments. I click and drag my way to the bottom and there sits an empty comment box. Above it is my now-posted comment.

This is something entirely new to me. Can anyone explain what is happening here and how to fix it? ... before I lose my mind!!

"Internet Explorer..."

Try Firefox or Chrome. If that doesn't help, at least you'll be using a browser that isn't a complete POS.

Cheers.

"a life lived appropriately is similar to a constant moving meditation..."

===============

Tripp, I am continually impressed by your insights.

You are exactly right. Meditation "practice" is for those who need to learn how to become present, to relax, become non-judgmental and aware of everything (thoughts, feelings, bodily sensations, etc.), but once you become centered you no longer need to "practice"... life activities done consciously are done meditatively.

Meditation practice is then unnecessary. Washing the dishes is then meditation, planting seeds is meditation, going to the dentist is meditation, driving a car, blowing your nose, cooking, eating, drinking, etc.

You are in a state of meditation 24 hours a day. Life just happens and you are able to enjoy it with awareness.

It is so simple and free and delicious.

Good and bad thoughts are both karma. So are true and false thoughts. Both Ultimately illusions? Sure, Ok. But to then say it "doesn't matter what you believe" goes far to far. No Master would ever say this. Remember this one? You must have heard it: Bad karma is an iron chain, good karma a golden one. Use the golden chain to free yourself from the iron chain - and then let go of the golden one to be free.

Just so true and false thoughts. If you believe lies and embrace false teachings, then you will create more and more bad karma. Nor will you be able to discriminate between true and false teachings. And if you can't understand the Scriptures and Teachings, how can you attain freedom? How can one who is lost find themselves if they can't read the map?

As ever, you're fine on the higher level and fall apart on the lower. And it contradicts everything you really believe and are passionate about. Do your really expect anyone to believe that you are above the fray? You believe many things and want other to believe like you do. Just like the rest of us.

God, guns, guts and gas. Everything else is just fluff.

"Do your really expect anyone to believe that you are above the fray? "

============

LOL! NO!

I am not above the fray. I am deep into it, It is like the lotus with roots deep into the mud, floating on the water, with a beautiful flower above the fray. I am both Zorba and Buddha.

That is possible with meditation, which has served me in all situations, including major surgeries, ecstatic dances, working in a hospital, and unexpected car crashes.


"you're fine on the higher level and fall apart on the lower. "

That is just me I guess. Thanks for the comment, Mr. Prabhupada.

If only I were White... maybe I could reach your level.

Trip identifies Nature (the ecosystem not the Prakriti or the sum total of Manifestation) with God. No Master would agree - be it his limited definition or the traditional definition of Nature in Samkya or Vedanta.

Nature is to be transcended. But we should love it a la Blake, "Eternity is in love with the productions of time". To love a Woman is not to hate her garments. But to love her garments too much is to miss Her.

I continue to be amazed at your inability to see clearly at the level of manifestation.

Another symbol I could have used: the Universe (ALL of the levels and mansions) is the Body of God. But on this site, where people think they are their bodies, that would not be wise.

Don't give up. Maybe in your next life you will earn a White body if this vehicle doesn't get you to the other side. Here's a few Black Folk who are moving ahead:

http://www.wvwnews.net/story.php?id=10591

tripp & vl-ika: perfect instance of dualism- we could use mr greer s tertiary logic to arrive at a third possibility: conserve what energy we DO have, in order to change the politically corrupt dynamics (that yes, gave us the problem) while we still have this latest form of communication...

why do we still have a (potentially/probably corrupt) electoral college between We, The People and president? wouldn t a little confidence that our choice is honored and therefore meaningful go a long way? or too little, too late? it seems to me that some accountability in certain areas of govt would eliminate a good deal of corruption...

People physically close to Nature often hate her, loggers for example. Or are indifferent to her - snowmobilers for example. Or are frightened by her - primitive people burdened by tabus and fear of spirits.

Many of us are not as close to Nature as the above, but we love her despite the separation - which we hope to remedy.

Indigenous people vary alot. Some really DO revere Nature in a way that we can understand. Most of the North American Indians seem to have done so. Not sure about the Central American Death Cult Aztec and Maya. Doubt it. I mean cutting people's hearts out might preclude any healthy reverence for anything.

I would hesitate to characterize someone wrapped in helmet and goggles and snowsuit, going 50 mph on a gaz guzzling noise machine, as being "close to nature."

My favorite part about this week's post is that the title name drops a Martha and the Vandellas soul classic, "Nowhere to Run, Nowhere to Hide." Gotta love Motown.

The US political system was never meant to be democratic. The whole exercise of the US Constitution is that of propaganda and deception. The US political system was designed from day one to be a vehicle of political corruption and influence peddling for the elite. The US citizenry needs to recognize this, confront this, and change this.

So sorry to hear you have troubles with female sex...I mean with the female sex. Vlad me lad, you gotta to learn how to " set the night on fire":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwbnHjoC8Tk&feature=related

Good luck.

Sincerely, Buck Stud

I dunno where you get that from, Mika. If you read the writings of the time, the Founding Fathers didn't really envision things like career politicians getting rich at the public trough, or even political parties, nor was there the rule by corporations which we now, uh, enjoy and that so pollutes the political scene with money and influence peddling. It was a very different time and place. Something tells me that if George Washington and Thomas Jefferson were magically transported to the present, they'd probably take one look, barf, and then reach for their muskets.

The American system was designed as a Republic, not a direct democracy. I'd probably agree with you that they had somewhat of a dim view of what you might call the general public and envisioned a kind of enlightened elite making informed choices. Plus there was the whole slavery question, which was actually recognized at the time as a huge unsolved issue. The Constitution isn't exactly the end-all, be-all of political systems. That's why most modern democracies use parliamentary systems with political coalitions, which are generally more representative of the constituents (in theory at least). These systems aren't as "winner take all" as the American one.

But I don't think in their wildest dreams would most of the originators of the Constitution have thought their system would lead to Jack Abramoff, K-Street, the military-industrial complex, etc.

"Trip identifies Nature (the ecosystem not the Prakriti or the sum total of Manifestation) with God."

I don't think that's accurate, Vlad. I certainly think in terms of a Gaia consciousness. At the ecosystem level I still think it's more god-like than you or I could ever understand. So intricate. So resilient. Humans are but one member of their ecosystem.

"No Master would agree - be it his limited definition or the traditional definition of Nature in Samkya or Vedanta."

If the Masters don't agree with my perception of Nature then I probably have little use for those Masters.

"Nature is to be transcended."

This is what I have in mind when I talk about dualism. You speak as if Nature is separate from you, but you are Nature. How can you transcend yourself? I think finding yourself in the dualistic maelstrom is the real goal, and precious few seem to have done that. Thoreau, Fukuoka, Schumacher perhaps. Probably others I'm not as familiar with.

The US political system is modeled after the Roman political system. The US "Founding Fathers" knew exactly the kind of political corruption and influence peddling that this political system engenders. The US "Founding Fathers" were Roman imperialist scum from the first to the last. I see no redeeming qualities in any of them. They were all jackals and wolfs out to have the sheep for their meal.

"Technology usually has unintended consequences, often including [...] a worsening of the problem the technology was supposed to solve. Generally speaking, unintended consequences are not the result of sloppy engineering, lazy planning, or lack of diligence; they cannot be eliminated through tighter control; rather, they are built in to the very attempt at control."
--Charles Eisenstein

Later, Clusterfuckers.

Well, it's about time I heard from you! I simply hate being ignored...ESPECIALLY by men ;0) . Yeah, I said that to get a rise out of you (or Q, whoever came first...at this age I can't be particular).

As for your definition of peddler, I might well be, if I had the energy, which I do not. Besides, I have nothing left to sell, aside from an old l8th century Dutch painting, and a few antiques. Other than that, I'm busted.

There's an old quote from "Cat on a Hot Tin Roof", Elizabeth Taylor says to drunken husband Paul Newman, "You can be young without money, but you can't be old without it." Alas, I've learned that lesson too late. And, as usual, the hard way! ;)

"People physically close to Nature often hate her, loggers for example. Or are indifferent to her - snowmobilers for example. Or are frightened by her - primitive people burdened by tabus and fear of spirits."

Loggers work outside, but they always quit logging when they get close to Nature. Snowmobilers play outside, but they are the opposite of close to Nature. They are a lot closer to oil and horse power. And I think it's odd to hear a "god-fearing" Christian talk about being frightened by their master. "Primitive people burdened by tabus and fear of spirits" could apply just as well to Christians as it does to animists.

"Most of the North American Indians seem to have done so. Not sure about the Central American Death Cult Aztec and Maya. Doubt it. I mean cutting people's hearts out might preclude any healthy reverence for anything."

I would tender that every time an example like this is brought up the culture in question is a farming culture. The Maya and Aztecs were farmers. So were the Anasazi and Bantu. Living outside of industrial modernity doesn't automatically mean one is integrated with Nature. Farmers of any stripe, or historical era, typically reside outside of a natural and sustainable relationship with their ecosystem. It's why I don't like to call myself a farmer. Farming and expansion are synonyms, and both equally perishable.

I'm a horticulturalist, not an agriculturalist.

the title name drops a Martha and the Vandellas soul classic, "Nowhere to Run, Nowhere to Hide."
=============

I suspect that^ title has its roots in Joe Louis' line "He can run, but he can't hide."

Hi back! But I think you have to be older than 40 and younger than 50 to be a codgerette ;). Oy vey, I'm thinking I need a bit more linament on my joints to get thru the night.

As I said earlier today: You would not believe the problems I've had with computers over the past month.
=============

I have barely scratched the surface and will not bore you with further detail ... but note this: I visited the "Geek Squad" at Best Buy yesterday and had to go back again today. The young guy really knew his shit. I was so pleased I reached out and shook his hand and asked him "What's your name?" He said "Tom" and I smiled and said "I have a son named Tom."

pish tosh! as a 40 year old curmudgeon i maintain that age is only a limit if you allow it to be...and if that doesn t work, soak ll tell ya all about meditation...#; >] anyhow, goodnight, and many happy returns

aw, how are you gonna leave it at a cliffhanger?! how did a coincidental name get you back in the CF'dN? is it for good this time? why is the sky blue, dad? looking forward to your 2%...

Propaganda Behind Big Media - YouTube
- http://goo.gl/ZM8su

I'm not going to waste one more minute of my life dealing with their miserable "business" model, no matter how much convenience it costs me.
==============

Sure you will Tripp, you (we) really have very little choice in the matter.

I'll call your frustrations with Corporate America and raise ya...

In fact, I'll match the foul treatment I've recently received from two monopolistic public utilities, PSE&G and Gateway, and the insurance company Horizon BCBS, with the experiences of anybody on the face of the planet.

To name but one example, automated phone answering systems whose very last choice is to "speak to a representative" are at least as heinous as water-boarding.


RippedThunder,
A'fore we fade into the unfathomable ether, lemme give one back'atcha....
an' all them sluggers went down like lead... yeaaah...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBwp-ur1dt4

The rest-a-youse mooks, shad'dup.

Spoken by a true youngster. Wait until you're old before you say age is a state of mind. But it is true one doesn't have to give in to it. Although I sometimes get real tired.

looking forward to your 2%...
================

No, Charles, you will be looking forward to my 2 cents.

Money? Money? I don' need no stinking money!

Actually I do. I'm past retirement age, but I still gotta work because I was (am) a spendthrift. What good is it if you have it but don't use it?

Oh, thanks for pointing that out, cft.

Yes, by "crashes" I meant the people who had crashed their four-wheelers. Wow, I didn't even see that when I looked again!

A "train wreck" is a person with so many medical problems it's a wonder they're still alive, in case I ever use that phrase.

Right, ripped?

two cents =.02 = 2%...you see the progression...so what about the rest of the story?

don t mention it- especially to Q!

well, i ve been working since i was two, & have pics of pulling a little red wagon full of laundry a coupla miles to prove it...many trades, including tile (that ll age your feckin' knees, lemme tell you) in other words, i aint no drone, so to speak...so i can tell i might very well be tired and broken if i allow it i m not bitter, i m just sayin'...and i refer to the money situation as 'the work til i drop plan'

My Physical Body is one with Nature - made out of it, has the same urges as any other animal. But I'm far more than my Physical Body. It's just one of several - the most coarst and insentient as a matter of fact.

Speaking as the Soul at the level of mind, I revere Nature as the Body of God and my own body as part of that as well as being my instrument of action in this world. My incarnation or avatar.

I've said this to you before: this multidimensional point of view is the Shamanic one and is the philosophy of the hunter gatherers. As such, it is the most ancient of all. If you want a good intro, you can't do better than Schumacher's "Guide for the Perplexed" - espcecially since it's by an author you know and respect.

Btw, none of this meant to disparage you or your work whitch I see as key to the Evolving of Spirit at the present time. Detaching from the world is only the path for the few. The rest of us must live in it - and that means transforming it since we are at the end of the old ways.

I'm fired up. One of the Speakers gave a pre-conference talk tonight. I totally resonate with everything he was saying. A bit of theory, but mostly about what is going on in the Northwest and how we could tie into it.

He spoke not only about survival but about beauty. That hits for me. I've been amazed all my life at the horror of our modern cities and the desert of the suburbs. We gave up all efforts at Quality decades before I was born. A complete surrender to a utilitarianism which isn't even that in the long run. And he spoke of creating "place" - a subtle concept which I got immediately. Just didn't have the word for it since no one talks about things like that.

"I think rational people need to be firmly anti-theist and push towards legislating laws that criminalize religion pushers as criminal conspirators in a conspiracy of criminal insanity."

"Here again I think energy descent will come to our rescue."

The original Peak Oil script has changed Trip. The Peak doesn't come soon enough for it to ameliorate our civilizational build-out problem. We've put too much carbon in the atmosphere. The methane is about to grow exponentially. Theres still tons of spare oil, coal and natural gas to do whatever needs to be done. They're talking about planning massive emergency planet-cooling projects now.

I know- you'd think they'd pull all stops when confronted with immanent destruction of the world- but you know how mega corporations and government work. Its being treated like "Cleanup on aisle 4" while they sell you a big shiny new pickup truck.

Lovelock's original theory: we're toast by 2050. New data is in for 2011: We're beyond worst case projections already. We're stuffing the atmosphere every fucking day. There are massive fires burning all over the planet. The ice is melting.

Like I said last week, tell your children whatever you need to so they can sleep at night but we're all adults here. Even those who don't want to know the truth should get used to hearing it. People are going to be showing up at city hall hearings demanding to know what their locality is going to do about it. It'll happen in the smarter, less lead-and-asbestos towns and cities.

The Science is just going to keep coming in faster and faster, more and more from here on out. Smart, concerned people are going to apply leverage where they can. Gotta stop the global consumption orgy from killing us all, and soon. We're running out of time.

Beantown said: "I still gotta work because I was (am) a spendthrift. What good is it if you have it but don't use it?"

=================

I spend most of my $1,000 monthly income every month. Aside from my modest investment portfolio (whose earnings dipped below 12.25% this quarter), I have little savings.

You cannot take it with you, and I have no children to leave anything to, so I might have to leave what little money remains to the American Civil Liberties Union or the American Friends Service Committee or the Southern Poverty Law Center or Amnesty International or the National Black United Federation of Charities or War Resisters League or the NAACP Legal Defense & Educational Fund or the National Urban League or the Fellowship of Reconciliation.

I remember a bumper sticker that said:

"Moses invests, Jesus saves, Osho spends!"

I'm with Osho.

"And he spoke of creating "place" - a subtle concept which I got immediately. Just didn't have the word for it since no one talks about things like that."

=================

Lots of people been talkin' about place, Vlad, for quite a while now.

Check out Gary Snyder: Earth Household (1969), The Practice of the Wild (1990), and A Place in Space (1995).

"Gotta stop the global consumption orgy from killing us all, and soon. We're running out of time."

================

Gotta stop the creation of more global consumers, especially those in the First World who consume much more than Third World people do.

Negative population growth is needed in the USA.

I agree we are running out of time. All of us. It is part of being human and aware of our mortality.

Very sexy voice. Many American Men are fleeing North America for Asia and South America where women don't hate men as much - and where they are not ashamed to be feminine. I'm sure they dream of meeting someone like this. Until the law is changed, marriage in America is sucker's bet. A man can be destroyed on a whim. And - they do get bored after a few years. Woman is hypergamous - always seeking someone better, richer, more handsome. Woman's nature naturaly will tend towards polygamy - many women seeking the top few men. Most women would rather be the girlfriend or third wife to a rich man than the wife of a regular working man. This is very bad for society. Thus women cannot be allowed to follow their whims like this without consequences.

On Ruskin: great stuff. I like his perennial three schools of art idea. I question his idea of Nature though as I did with Trip. He says stay true to Nature and that India did not. Having read Annanda Comoraswamy, I think he would question Ruskin as to what Nature is - just the physical? The many arms of the bodhisatvas are Real and symbolize their helping capacity for suffering humanity. They were quite capable of drawing the human form, just not interested in general! The Mahayana art of South East Asia did perfect a kind of "Transcendental Realism" in its sculpture. The images are perfectly human but more beautiful and graceful. A combination of the School of Athens and Florence if you will. A beautiful image of the human form in a higher state of consciousness.

And I appreciate his heartfelt devotion of Art to God at the end. You are right: no one today could have this kind of sincerity - or the guts to say it even if they felt it.

The contrast between the Scots and Hindus fascinated me. Is art essential? Not for every individual. (obviously it is for some) Morality is closer to the cosmic axis than beauty and is for all. Thus Art must be moral - or the result is terrible. We see the coarsening effect of its lack all around us. And some Art is natural and essential for any Culture - even a crude one like the 19th century Highlander. Note: The Ancient Scots like all the Celts were extremely given to art, ornament, and music - yet they were headhunters. Ruskin's paradox has depth and is to deserves contemplation.

I appreciate that his view of Art was very far removed than any naive or photographic realism - so don't accuse me of that.

As a poet, I hold the most archaic values on earth. They go back to the late Paleolithic: the fertility of the soil, the magic of animals, the power-vision in solitude, the terrifying initiation and rebirth; the love and ecstasy of the dance, the common work of the tribe. I try to hold both history and wilderness in mind, that my poems may approach the true measure of things and stand against the unbalance and ignorance of our times.

From an essay published in A Controversy of Poets in which Gary Snyder offered his own assessment of his art.

Ah, ctemple, since you're such an expert on satanism, and such a devoted follower of Christ, and such a confirmed rightwinger, here's a quote from John Michael Greer, a favorite of many on this blog-

"It’s crucial to recognize, though, that these subcultures are themselves riddled with the same sort of incoherence that pervades society as a whole; this is the second form of incoherence I want to address. I wonder how many of the devout Christians who back the Republican Party, for example, realize that the current GOP approach to social welfare issues is identical to the one presented by Anton Szandor LaVey in The Satanic Bible. (Check it out sometime; the parallels are remarkable.) It may seem odd that believers in a faith whose founder told his followers to give all they had to the poor now by and large support a party that’s telling America to give all it has to the rich, but that’s what you get when a culture’s central narratives dissolve; of course it’s also been my experience that most people who claim they believe in the Bible have never actually read more than a verse here and there."

Musta Myst It

LaVey hated the Hippies and had close friends on the police department. His Satanism is not really but rather a form of theater for 50's squares coming of age. A combination of hedonism and libertarianism - both very far removed from your puritanism and desire for State Control.

I have no doubt that Commies have already infiltrated the Permaculure Movement. The Maoist model of rural councils will serve admirably.

Repent!

In response to EF Schumacher's critique of material scientism (1975, Science now knows unambiguously that "(DNA) codes for proteins and self-replicate. The proteins in turn control and manage all other functions, such as metabolism, growth, reproductive cycles and the characteristics of the organism." This is as close as Science gets to proving what "life is" and therefore, establishing evolutionary theory as a route toward that truth. Instructional science has only opened more doors in descriptive science.

Religion had thousands of years to produce solutions to famine, starvation, wars, tribalism and "human nature". It never worked.

Science now has the ability to provide everyone with fresh water, shelter, and food, clothing and material objects, tools of every kind and sort.

That is, if we voluntarily "Gave up" the mass consumer economic system. And it means giving up personal automobiles, the iPhone, and the iPad. Individual packages of Jell-O with cartoon characters marketed at your kids. The entire "Marketing"(Bullshit-creating) sectors. The IRS. No diplomatic embassies, no immigration, no exports, no imports. We could easily do this. No personal automobiles, no Walmarts or Targets. No "going to work" all day.

If humanity just stopped fucking the planet up with impossible levels of consumption, Science would diligently and eventually discover how to make water out of thin air, or a wireless, global telecommunications system that works by the sun's energy. Or 3-D printers that would eliminate shipping. Or any number of incredible advances. Space travel, too.

What would have to be sacrificed is everyone's idea of a "Career" or global commodity economy.

Raw materials would be conserved, their manufacture into technology conserved, and release of technology would be planned. The US, at least, could easily lead the effort. The US can feed itself. Meat would have to be curtailed, as well as calories in general. I'm in support of force-starving fatties, too.

Energy under this planned economy would be throttled, and distributed by an "Energy FED".

Hmm, I'm beginning to agree with the globalist plans.

Mark me down as an athiest and globalist, scientist, and concerned citizen.

You guys can claim your white nationalist, Buddhist, and Permie bona fides.

Vlad, "Most women would rather be the girlfriend or third wife to a rich man than the wife of a regular working man. This is very bad for society. Thus women cannot be allowed to follow their whims like this without consequences."

Here's where your opposition to fundamentalism betrays your weakness toward the Islamists. Western culture is distinct in that we allow women to choose who they have sex with- period. I wouldn't worry about women searching for the "Top man"- its just the sort of dream that has men jumping from woman to woman. Yeah- woman's hypergamous. So be it, that's a strength of Western culture.

Such social controls of women are incredible in foreign culture, aren't they? Those are the worst elements to emulate.

Nature is always present as our bodies.

And isn't it obvious what a difficult relationship we are having with our bodies? Hate it, tattoo it, pierce it, feed it, but mostly hate it? Disgusting, degenerating, fragile, smelly, painful thing?

We gave a loaded gun the form of a McDonalds Happy Meal and put it in our children's hands. We slashed our own wrists with Mondo Burritos. We bit the cyanide capsule of Sitcom Edutainment.

Steve Jobs is a cautionary tale.

He had a liver transplant in 2009. If you know how hard it is to get a liver transplant you have some idea of how difficult that is. (I don't).

But it must be somewhere at the level of pull you can get your personal genome sequenced. And the money to fund the customized course of experimental drugs.

This was a man, who, like us, was warned.

And he was given alternatives. He was given options. He declined the alternatives. He chose a conservative, belief-based solution to this terminal problem.

And he lost that bet as Science predicted. And the cancer spread to his liver and killed it.

Hence, the new liver. The genome sequencing. Two years, but the patient had had it. The pancreas doestroyed, the body starved for fat. The doctors did absolutely everything they could to save him.

The irony is, that Steve Jobs' cancer will probably be seen as routinely treatable and curable one day, thanks to Science... a day not far away.

But thats Science. It does promise a better world. It does solve human problems.

Its the economy that is killing us.


Science is precisely what's being cut in the US budget.
Our country has always held various leads in various
fields because we funded basic R&D. Now, we give
financiers hundreds of billions while places like NASA
or SLAC have to wring their hands about cost overruns
of a few million dollars on a multi-year project.

The world, not just the USA, has been overtaken by
a socializing of risk and loss and a privatization of
safety and gain. Look at Europe. Their "solution"
for Greece and Spain is AUSTERITY???!!! How does
austerity pay down debt? The essence of austerity
is that liquidity is lost at the highest levels (govt.
and huge corporations) and therefore jobs are lost
and therefore fewer products are made and therefore
less revenue is received and therefore the debt cannot
be repaid.

I'm beginning to think that it might just be possible
that these "cultivated" leaders in Europe are even
dumber, more cynical, and more dismissive of their
constituencies than the morons we have in govt. over
here. JHK seems to regard the European populaces as
having more savoir faire than us Cheez Doodle-eating
Americans but I'm having my doubts.

I correspond via email with two Spaniards and one Italian.
You're talking about places where an average salary is
about 1200 euros a month and rent for a normal-sized,
non-crackerbox one-bedroom apartment is 800 euros.
Little wonder that the most common phenomenon in
those countries is that single people of age 40 have to
live with 3 or 4 other people to get by and married
couples stay with Mom and Dad until they're 38.

Because our MSM is so awful, we seldom hear about the
plight of Europeans in places like Greece, Italy, Spain,
or Portugal. Very few Americans would put up with
the undignified living conditions in much of Europe.
We expect to have our own apartments and/or houses
before we enter our 30's and certainly by our 40's.

The more I correspond with Europeans, especially from
the PIIGS countries, the more I'm convinced that the EU
is a Ponzi scheme which started with the richer countries
bidding up prices of everything in the PIIGS and other
poor countries (like Romania) and now they want their
investments paid back just like the bondholders of
the TBTF banks got paid back courtesy of Uncle Sam's
intervention.

In other words, the Germans and French bought into
the PIIGS and they don't want to suffer the usual capital
losses that highly speculative investments result in. I
hope the people in the PIIGS countries riot like hell.


E.

Austerity is code for looting the country. Read Disaster Capitalism by Naomi Klein for a very in-depth explanation of the system. Debt is used as a club to cut social services, open capital markets, and (the real juicy part) sell off state assets for pennies on the dollar. The same script is used and only the country changes. It happened it Russia, South Africa, many South American countries, etc. Now Greece is next on the cutting board.


Fuck the Greek government!!! They have just dropped the
public referendum on the terms of the EU bailout. Other
EU countries and the USA will now emasculate the public
by not letting them determine their own financial destinies
and dependencies in ANY way.

Greece just gave the middle finger to their population.
They had a chance to show the world that, given a chance,
a populace is smarter than its own government and they
would have exited the failed EU and the deflationary debt
spiral they, Italy, Spain, and Portugal are in.

This is yet another triumph for corporate totalitarianism
sponsoring state terrorism on its own people. No doubt
that the stuffed shirts in the world's investment houses
will look upon this as some sort of victory because it
seals the EU's latest "kick the can" for about a year or
two until social unrest leads to genocidal police action.
Congratulations [sic]!!


E.


I have a friend in the state government in Arizona. The branch of that government that he works for is the branch that provides social services for the poor. It's an emasculated bureaucracy with a low budget while the budgets for skyscrapers and other boondoggles run ten to one hundred times the size.

You're absolutely right, Turkle. They've got the state-sanctioned destruction of the already-decimated down to a science with "preserving capital markets" as their failsafe excuse. Remember 2008?? That was the excuse used for the bailouts while Social Security recipients were told they weren't going to get a COLA.

It's much like the use of "terrorism" as an excuse for removing all of our liberties, especially our Fourth Amendment rights to freedom from illegal search and seizure. The formula is to just say that any large financial company failures will be "catastrophic" so we have to cut everywhere else, including social services and R&D that keeps us competitive.


E.

"Gotta stop the creation of more global consumers, especially those in the First World who consume much more than Third World people do.

Negative population growth is needed in the USA.

I agree we are running out of time. All of us. It is part of being human and aware of our mortality."
-asoka-

Negative population growth is needed in the USA.

Concur, 100%, Asoka. Now, how are we going to make it happen?

===============================
Very nice set of posts last night, E and BustinJ.

Watch the Greeks. Looks like the future of Freedom could be in their hands.

If only the people could make the choice.
And make it the correct choice.

Turkle and E

We are all watching in horror and disbelief that a country such as this is making the most self-destructive choices imaginable, but here we are and a small group of people are doing so well with it, it will not change.

It's great to hear someone else discuss Klein's Disaster Capitalism. My sister and I agree it is indispensable in that she clearly traces the thought process and implementation of this scourge upon the globe.

There was a silent coup in this country to take us out of the Keynesian balances which built the greatest middle class on earth to the Milton Friedman system of the free market system which is just a reverse-engineering of Communism.

Using globalism as the excuse to undo the twentieth century gains for the people. All this system can do is work on fraud and destroy the wealth of the people in order to keep giving to the upper 1%. It is so far gone and so codified into the system that it cannot stop. Europe is behaving like the retarded handmaiden of the system, so what can stop this process from further eroding the Western world?

We spread this philosophy to Europe who have walked in lock-step with us on financialization of the economy. We all sold out to slave labor, whether it is imported like the engineers from India, or exported in the form of manufacturing and R&D over in the BRIC countries.

To add insult to injury the religious fundamentalist right has adopted these tenets of money worship to the hilt and have completely broken with Martin Luther who created Protestantism in reaction to the very corruption these people now embrace without question. Like five year old children they don't question anything and never look at the evidence of something that is unworkable, but instead cling to a belief system that as Wage points out looks more like devil worship than Christianity.
Note how the mainstream Christians refuse to stand up to this. You hardly hear a peep out of them.

The Republican party is becoming the referendum of the Twentieth Century repudiating every aspect from science, R&D and anything that could be labeled "progressive". That's what we are witnessing in Congress. The only way to create jobs is to cut taxes on the "job creators" who are lionized like the gods (The Creators) even if the 0% taxes on GE has resulted in $Billions spent in China and Brazil. Evidence doesn't count--it is utterly ignored and they just keep saying the same things. It is easy to see how everywhere else, the government invests in its infrastructure. That will no longer happen here, E. This country is deliberately devolving into a place where nobody will no how to do anything.

In the last few days I have been watching the Cain debacle, but what is most interesting to me is how perverse his following is. Since he said China is seeking to develop nuclear capability (they became a nuclear power in '64) and calls Uzbekistan Uz-beki-beki stan.--And that awful commercial where he is pushing cigarette smoking and then smiles in a fiendish way, he is embraced by these half-wits. Since the ladies are coming out to expose his indiscretions, he's raised over a $1million . What does this say about the polity in this country?

There will be little choice but to go local to get anything done--let's hope the locals don't gouge us!


"I'm fired up. One of the Speakers gave a pre-conference talk tonight. I totally resonate with everything he was saying. A bit of theory, but mostly about what is going on in the Northwest and how we could tie into it.

And he spoke of creating "place" - a subtle concept which I got immediately."
-vk-

Vlad, you also produced some good thoughts last night on CFN. I can sense your enthusiasm, through cyberspace and from 3,500 miles away.

If I may - "place" resonates with me as well. It's self-sustaining, and it begins with family and close, trusted souls - then it radiates slowly outward until it finds other "places."

I suspect that your "place," would be filled with you family, and trusted advisers - and that all of these people would "white." And that is OK. No, that is more than OK - that is the essence, I believe, the essential building block - of human love. We must first love ourselves, after all.

You can build wonderful things on that place, Vlad. I can envision great things. I can envision wanting to visit, to understand, to help.

================================

But, again I believe, only love can hold a place like that together, forever. We are, indeed, close to the end of the old ways.

If your place tolerates hate.
Then your place will project fear.

And that will destroy you.

$.02 - Prog

"The Republican party is becoming the referendum of the Twentieth Century repudiating every aspect from science, R&D and anything that could be labeled "progressive". That's what we are witnessing in Congress." -lbendet-

Another great post, Lbend. Someone will immediately say that the Democrats aren't much better - and they'd be correct.

But moving on - how did we in the US get so brainwashed. Our fears and our lusts (two emotional triggers that work on almost all of the people almost all of the time) have been carefully manipulated to get us to this point - and to SELL us things. We bought Homeland Security. We bought tax cuts. We bought cheap Chinese stuff from Wal-Mart. The list we bought stretches to infinity - then turns in on itself. It may well destroy us, and all of humanity with it.

We are not a stupid people.
We are in thrall to stupid policies.

I wait for suggestions as to where to put more of my energies, efforts, and donations. I won't give up 'till I'm dead.

With respect, Lbend,
P2C
=======================
Speaking of donations - I suggest NumbersUSA -
The US population organization with the best overall ranking. Even the SPLC approves of NumbersUSA.

Good response, P2C

Yes, the Demos sure bought into the globalism neoliberal paradigm too and I did say Europe did to their own destruction as well.

I am pointing out the most extreme of the Reps who are making the biggest noise and all those who know better, but are playing into their most ardent fears and dictates.

That said, one thing I said years ago and I like Gerald Celente for saying this is that if we could all vote on specific issues rather than personalities that are shrink-wrapped for public consumption, we would gone in a different direction.

As far as the Chimerica thing goes, we had no choices, just as we have way fewer choices as to where to invest our money today in comparison to the 60's and 70's.

Direct democracy and getting money out of the political process would be the first step in the right direction--that's why it can't be allowed to happen.


LBendet said:
Evidence doesn't count--it is utterly ignored and they just keep saying the same things. It is easy to see how everywhere else, the government invests in its infrastructure. That will no longer happen here, E. This country is deliberately devolving into a place where nobody will no how to do anything.
**************************************************************

If one didn't know any better, one could easily arrive at the casual observation that our "leaders" were Chinese or Russian "moles" created by secret PAC money to destroy our country. In reality, as usual, self-interest and greed are much better explanations than some cockeyed conspiracy theory.

Just as companies are bound and gagged by "shareholder values" to having a "vision" that does not extend beyond the next quarterly report, politicians are running for the NEXT election the minute they win the CURRENT election. Obama goes all over the country giving these JOBS summits but when do you hear him really lobbying Congress about it. Why isn't it as urgent as Manhattan Project was in WWII? When is he going to comment on the FASB allowing the BANKING INDUSTRY to be the ONLY industry allowed to avoid mark-to-market accounting?

This is the most mysterious "Democrat" I've ever seen in my life. He's to the right of Eisenhower. The Republikooks constantly talk about the left engaging in "class warfare" while the ONLY class warfare in actuality has been the destruction of the middle class starting with the first REAL globalist ... Richard Nixon when he "opened up China".

It won't be too long until the people of the USA have to live like Greeks, Italians, and Spaniards are doing right now. Indeed, here in California, I *personally* know several people in their mid-thirties who've never lived anywhere but with Mom and Dad. And it's not for want of trying to find steady employment.

No wonder so many kids in the 1990s wanted to be rentiers and financiers ... they're the only jobs that haven't been outsourced!


E.

I was not recomending any cuts I was just throwing the bullshit flag that we can get out of this mess by showing the SIZE of cuts needed to balance the budget.

E.

Everyone's to the right of Eisenhower today. Obama is Republican lite. Who needs Romney when you've got O already in place?
The think tanks give the politician their talking points. They all think the same way.
The situation is that in this economic structure, if Main street gains, Wall st. loses something.

Corzine just stepped down from his fund. Does that mean he'll go quietly into the night?--no inquiry necessary?

Game over for us.

@ E & L Bend: you have fucking spelled things out precisely i just can t figure out why if it seems so damned obvious, how did they do it??! really, i mean most of those points are how i ve always felt; we can t be the only ones who re smart enough to feel fooked...what is wrong with these people on this planet?

Wow! What threat did Merkel make that scared Papandreu MORE than millions of really pissed off Greeks? Amazing!

And just as amazing, when I turned on my computer and the "news" popped up, there was no mention of this incredible news.

But Justin Bieber did not knock up some girl. And some people take funny pictures with their pets.

However, when I went to my main news source, information clearing house, the top story is that the USA has killed 120 people in 2 days with drone strikes.

Who wants to bet that that won't be mentioned in corporate media at ANY time today?

since i was about 15 or so and started thinking about the world all the pussy is in, i ve considered the direct vote to be the intelligent solution to living in a society...i mean the only reason we have representative ineptocracy (thanks, Q) is because the Founding Fuckers didn t have iPhones, right?

"The Science is just going to keep coming in faster and faster, more and more from here on out."

Yes, for fewer and fewer people. Still a net reduction of new technology in the hands of the proletariat. And even if one particular technology shines, let's say the iPhone, the net collected suite of gadgets, and therefore their impact on Earth, will still decline.

Even if what you see, personally, is more destruction, more "development", in your hood, you are still just seeing a tiny snapshot on a great big planet. The same great big planet that is responsible for climate stability, rainfall, temperature, etc. My neighbors are big bird watchers, and they regularly lament the disappearance of the species I see around in larger numbers every year with my own eyes. Just because the "official report" tells them to. You also strike me as an official story buyer, incapable of independent thought.

The physics behind the peaking event seem easy enough to understand to me: the net destruction drops as energy becomes harder to access. Doesn't matter at all how much is left. The only thing that matters is that there is LESS. Once the contractionary phase begins, which is now 4-5 years in the rear view, the growth phase ends. By definition. The net acreage of land in successional recovery increases. Then water and mineral cycles start to recover slowly. In time the only exponential growth left is that of recovering Nature.

No matter how loudly you proclaim otherwise from how high a mountaintop.

Yes, we could repurpose some energy toward highly visual and actively destructive purposes, but the NET MOVEMENT of ecosystems on Earth, beyond peak oil, is toward recovery. Period. Don't know if you've noticed the growing chaos in the industrial world over the last 4 years or so, but the people aren't protesting and governments aren't defaulting because they still have everything they're used to having. Debt isn't growing, money devaluing, across the board, because global exploitation is still moving along right on schedule. These things are happening because these people, these governments, these financial institutions, are experiencing contraction in their world. And they don't like it very much. I don't understand why that is so hard for so many people to understand.

The planet, on the other hand, is rejoicing. It's not a fairy tale I tell my children to help them sleep; it's the actual narrative I'm trying to get folks like you to wrap your heads around. (Beyond Nukes) HUMANS ARE NOT THAT POWERFUL. WE ARE A TINY SUBSET OF GAIA'S ECOLOGY, AND SO IS OUR ECONOMY. The number of transactions taking place in one little bed in my garden smokes the entire human global economy. Even with all the exotic, fanciful trading derivatives.

A little systems thinking is something from which you could benefit mightily. And benefit from in more than one way.

haven t looked at the thread, but morning maddow had a teaser up saying the spooks (sorry, didn t seem prudent to spell THAT one out) have promised to "tighten up" drone attacks, or some such drivel...

Why would Cain say that China is developing nuclear capacity?

Because that is what excuse the US used to attack Iraq and is now using to attack Iran.

How was he supposed to know that there would be a different reason for attacking China?

Many of my favorite jokes have been ruined over the years for various reasons. Like "A friend helps you move. A good friend helps you move the body" was ruined when one of our frequent fliers was arrested for helping to move a dead body.

I also used to like the one about the little kid who's selling lemonade for $100 a glass. When it's pointed out that he won't sell much lemonade that way, he says "I only have to sell one!"

I think it was Hancock(?) who posted a Citibank prospectus a few weeks ago, in which they wrote off most of the US public as a market for consumer goods. They are going for the top now.

The mass cruiselines, for instance, which feed ordinary americans like hogs in a feedlot, aren't doing well, while the luxury lines market to the 20%.

Same with clothing and accessories, etc.

Bustin points out that our mass consumerism has led to the death of the planet.

Rational, moral people would decide, as he has, that if we all consume less, and decrease our population naturally, we could, perhaps, stop the decline of our ecosystem, and live within our plantetary means.

I've watched the ruling class operate for a long time now. They don't do the moral thing, but they do seem to have plans.

For instance, I thought that Hilary would get the nomination, as a reward for Bill and her years of dedicated service. No. They went with the new black guy.

Number one, that was a brilliant move, still paying off, with millions of Americans still convinced that, any day now, Super Obama will put on his cape and save us.

Number two, there is no honor among thieves. Saddam and Ghaddafi learned this the hard way. China may also learn this. The USSR learned it also, when they turned their economy over to Summer and the boys, expecting prosperity in return for the dissolution of their union.

Here's my conjecture. The ruling class DOES have a plan to save the atmosphere. It involves impoverishing and killing off many consumers.

Education? Ha! Who needs education in the US? We no longer need innovation, and if we do, we can import Indians. (And that is the royal We, of course).

Americans need to get over the belief that the ruling class has any loyalty to the working class.

As MSN would say, they're just not that into us.

You're such an American, Tripp. Thinking that your private efforts will counteract massive destruction.

I remember sitting out in my pasture, which, as far as I know, has never been sprayed. (Before I moved here, it was horse pasture, and before that, a dairy farm).

I was literally looking at the fenced-in area of my personal world and wondering why there were no birds.

Then something happened, and I widened my view, looking at the round-up fields all around me, as far as the eye could see, and farther, I know, cause I've taken the train to Chicago and seen sprayed monoculture fields all the way, except when they have been covered with McMansions.

And then I thought about the destruction of the rainforests and realized that my little acreage is not going to save any damn birds except those that live their lives in one narrow spot.

Indeed. I think tachometers should be hooked up to the founding fathers' graves to see just how fast they are turning.

M.H.

As far as people having little impact on Earth, I pointed out last week that anaeorbic bacteria (which are even smaller) managed to poison the atmosphere so badly that the remnants of them must huddle underground, waiting for someone to step on a nail or something, thus giving them an opportunity to flourish in an oxygen-deprived environment.

If they can do it, so can we!

I read a fascinating book once. It pointed out that sexual mores are shaped by living conditions. (Of course, I would like that book).

Anyway, in warlord societies, where living is tough, and the most violent men are the only ones that can provide, polygamy is accepted. It's the only way a woman can survive.

In societies where the living is easy, so is the sex. Tropical islands, hunter gatherers, etc. Where a woman can go and get her own food, marriage arrangements are loose. This applies to our post WW2 society also.

In traditional European and European-American farming societies, it takes two adult workers in a family to make a living. So you have the monogamous marriage that was traditional in our society until women were accepted into the workplaces.

Makes sense to me.

Turkle,
Wish I had more time and space to discuss this, I would refer you to the terms “scientific materialism” and the discipline of the philosophy of science, where the limitations of scientific investigation as a means of getting at the truth are more thoroughly discussed, books have been written on the subject and I find it quite expanding, in terms of creating more options. Allan Wallace is one writer on this topic, many fine physicists also speak about it at times.

Briefly, what science discovers and labels as the truth is limited, or relative too, its means of inquiry. In most cases that means of inquiry is “observation”. So, if all of classical physics, for example, relies on observation, then whatever truth might go beyond the limitations of “observation” remains undiscovered. This explains why so much of quantum mechanics remains inexplicable to ordinary thinking, because the means of inquiry is not “observation” (you can't see any of those so-called “particles”) but higher mathematics.

Now, when you look out at the world through your eyes you are conditioned to believe what you see is absolutely “out there” just as you see it. However, there is plenty of evidence that this is not the case, and that your “observations” are only an interpretation, a limited view which allows you to function and interact with that world, whatever its true character may really be.

In the case of “mind” being an emergent property of “brain”, it is true that there is a correlation between thoughts and mental activity, that has been observed many times. It is also true that there is a correlation between the light that emerges from the fixture over your head right now and the switch on the wall next to you, but no one is labeling the light as an emergent property of the switch. So sticking an ice pick in my head might derail my thoughts in the same way that disconnecting the switch will "stop" the light.

No one has advanced any theory on how electrical and chemical activity in the brain (physical properties) can be transformed into thoughts (non-physical properties). There is simply no credible evidence for anything more than a correlation between these thoughts and mental activity. Perhaps one day they will prove such a thing, but do not mistake their desire to do so for it having actually been accomplished. To put it in ordinary terms......they ain't even close.

Your absolute believe in sciences objectivity is......well.....dare I say a little like a religion. In fact, there are too many cases to document of science and scientists losing their objectivity, and for long periods of time. The nature of mind, and the persistent materialistic view of reality, which cutting edge science often questions, are very good examples of this.

I could go on and on....but one more thing. Some religions do change....when asked what Buddhism would do if science proved reincarnation couldn't happen, the Dalai Lama responded “We'd change Buddhism”. The Dalai Lama, BTW, is an impressive scientist in his own right.

Asoka,
Really....I'm embarressed for you, when you talk about Buddhism.

It's one thing to 'talk' about it while acknowledging your own imperfect understanding, it's entirely another to try to teach it, which is what you seem to be trying to do with your various solipsistic meanderings on this site.

But then, maybe that's just more of your intentional lying, how would anyone know?

I suggest you place some sort of disclaimer at the bottom of all your posts, basically telling people to ignore everything you say.

I wrote a response back to (about four paragraphs) and it was held for review. I then shifted around some of the order, changed a few words, and it was still held up on the second attempt.

Abbreviated seems to be the ticket.

Slightly off topic here, but I just listened to KunstlerCast #172 with Jeff Goodall on climate change. Great interview, thanks JHK. One of the issues raised is the lack of awareness in the U.S. on the urgency -- well, the reality even -- of what's happening to the climate. The exasperated panel did some hand wringing over the prospects of getting people on board. Now here, bear with me with as I compare that to the issue of well, what a lot of people know and experienced, the phenomenon of alien intelligence engaging humans. Still ridiculed, still dismissed out of hand for the most part. Yet, the issue of climate change and other earth changes were spoken about by these aliens. Researchers such as Raymond E. Fowler published in the 1980s, some of their remarks. I recall reading they warned us that climate change was coming and would cause major upheaval. It was the first time I had read anything about "climate change" anywhere. Well, if you're still reading this, check it out. And if you think its all absurd, I challenge you with data. What have you got? A reflex?

What you say about making all your daily actions a meditation is, one way of practicing. Your other observations about why people find it useful, 'they are disconnected from nature/reality' is a weak understand of the true value of meditation, I think.

I'm surprised at you at times. You alternate between saying very perceptive things, demonstrating an open mind. Then, you turn right around and make broad, sweeping declarations about the future based on little more than a very limited parsing of the data. Your open-mindedness seems to have a blindspot.

Haven't you heard..." TPTB" break out a clip of Nov 22, 1963 for moments like these.

Wage,
Hillary and O are cut from the same philosophical cloth. She received something like $700,000 in campaign funds from Colombia to push the trade deal. Slick Willy got rid of that pesky Glass Steagall act.

It's just a bait and switch as the right wingers will soon figure out as well.

As far as the middle class goes, we fulfilled our usefulness as the mortgage engine that fueled the global financial collapse in 2008.

Now middle classes are emerging in the BRIC countries, so we are no longer the buyers of last resort.

As far as those cruise lines go, not too attractive after all those viruses that got everyone sick--sounds like hell on the high seas!

Only ones to go on cruises in the future are the well-heeled.--true of all endeavors that we all once enjoyed.

Or, they could use the updated version of Ghaddafi being sodomized with a knife. Don't go talking about selling oil in gold dinars, buster!

However, there are a lot of angry Greeks, and any one of them might take it out on Papandreu, I would think.

I'm guessing greed wins over simple fear. But I could be wrong. Perhaps it's a combination.

Yep, Hillary and Obama, the Bonnie and Clyde of our time, but without the morals.

And how about a sick culture where women can end the marriage and be rewarded for breaking the contract? Throw the man out of his own home, tell lies and get the man estranged from his own children? Make the man a slave for decades - if he tries to make a bit more money for himself she just goes and gets a higher settlement.

It's called Matriarchy and it's what Feminism wants. And if you are for social justice, you should be against it.

so I might have to leave what little money remains to the American Civil Liberties Union or the American Friends Service Committee ... etc
============

This is a sure sign (1) there has never been a Mrs Asoka or (2) you're a lousy husband.

"Mrs Asoka" (the black goddess), I believe, has about as much substance as the prayers you sent up for Prog's wife.

BTW, having money gathering dust in a vault is not a Scrooge McDuck eccentricity. It is there to relieve insecurity and lessen anxiety. It is probably hard for those without children to appreciate this concept.

Vlad,

I may kid around with you a lot, and I certainly do not agree with you about anything much of anything, but you have an outstanding mind.

Ruskin asserts that 'one can dither on this side of the chain or that' if one is holding on to "the stem of nature".

I think history lends a certain credence to Ruskin's assertion. The "art for art's sake" of modernism was never autonomous in the Kantian sense of disinterest; it was in fact a structured societal instrument via its opposition, support or claim of ivory tower aesthetic purity in relation to the society that enveloped it. Hence, it comes down to distinguishing between formalism and structuralism.

But back to you, or should I say, a salute to your post:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUvpLlVJKQs

Say, what??!?

You've swallowed the camel, Prog. The media has demonzied hate and you bought it. Hate is natural - it's natural to hate your enemies. The average man can't fight unless he feels it. It helps men stay vigilant - and thus the women and children don't have to feel fear.

As should be obvious by now, I'm not against the Universal Vision, be it Comsic or Human. But it's too early in our evolution (or too late in the cycle of ages) for this to be a global reality. Needless to say, all the people at the lecture last night think as you do or worse. You at least believe in borders - if my intuition is correct, alot of them do not. So forgive my enthusiasm of last night. I'm going to be deep undercover amidst these beautiful, brilliant, leftist loons. It gives me no pleasure. The only way their vision could become a reality in America is for the borders to be sealed tight as a drum - and for Whites to stay on top. They will never get any of that.

I sense there is a deep gap in the Permaculture movement between the deep thinkers and the "masses". The deep ones know how bad the storm is going to be. Trip knows and the guy last night did too. The gap will widen as the Movement gains numbers. Inevitable. I enjoy what they're doing in Portland and other places, but all that is going to be washed away. It's time to flee the dying cities of a dying nation of a dying culture. Hopefully these Principles will be the guideing light of the Next Civilization.

I suggest you place some sort of disclaimer at the bottom of all your posts, basically telling people to ignore everything you say.

Dale, once again I basically agree with you. Another option would just be to stop posting altogether.

You say you are embarrassed for me re: Buddhism? You are an authority on Buddhism on CFN?

Fact is, anyone who wants to be called a Buddhist, is a Buddhist. It does not matter if they have taken refuge in the Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha or not.

Ridicule, intolerance, and venom ... is about all I have ......................................
THE MOST HONEST SELF ASSESSMENT YOU HAVE POSTED HERE

ALSO JHK...LOOK AT YR PAGE
JUST BELOW THIS [AT LEAST NOW AS I POST]:

Witch of Hebron is now [availble] in paperback

Corzine could steal with impunity when he was with Goldman Sachs.

It will be interesting to see if this is a lifetime immunity from prosecution.

An oldie, but a timeless goodie-

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-great-american-bubble-machine-20100405

Women should be allowed to do whatever they like - and take the consequences. Be a whore? And never marry and end up alone. Divorce her loving hard working husband? And move out and get a job to help support the children. Contract breakers get penalized in real life - not rewarded. Of course men have to pay their way too.

But - it's idle to pretend that the sexes are the same. As that Master of the Chateau says, A key that opens many locks is a good key. But a lock that opens to many keys is a poor lock. Men see it that - as do women. Feminist Theory is written by lesbos and commies who want throw a wrench into the works so they are to be ignored. That heterosexual women listen to these freaks as guides to their sexual and domestic lives doesn't speak well for the intelligence of women. That the media and goverment has gone along with all this is nothing short of criminal. Women are big children who need to be protected from their own ego inflation. But once they do evil, they have to pay just like anyone.

Too bad; we Americans allowed our status to be downgraded from citizen to human capital. Yeah, that’s right; we’ve surrendered national sovereignty, thereby annulling all the erstwhile exclusive privileges -- such as right to direct national destiny through elected representation.

The switch has been incremental, but for certain part of it was permitting the immigration policies enacted on our behalf by our elected representatives to default to however many foreign nationals decided to ignore them. That meant, essentially, no borders.

Ah, welcome to globalism. Now we are on par (leveled, if you will) with global human capital. That’s right, any financial entity (flagged in this country or not) is free to push us aside for the human capital available wherever – India, China, Philippines, etc, wherever the price is cheapest.

Then too, so many of us have opted to hire the cheaper illegal immigrant labor here instead of our own citizen labor force. No, so far those who’ve hired the cheaper illegal immigrant work force haven’t been humiliated with shaven heads like the Nazi sympathizers in France after its liberation in WWII. Instead, they are celebrated as compassionate humanitarians.

The rest of us simply allow the illegal aliens to conduct public demonstrations demanding to be accepted as a legitimate political force. How’s that for “leveling”. Once the exclusive right of “citizens” to assemble and petition our government, now it’s a “right” usurped by the illegal aliens. And we citizen sit meekly on the sidelines; but then, we’re really only human capital, right?

Any wonder that wages are dropping in America? Corporations move the jobs beyond our borders and welcome in any number of foreign nationals to undercut our wage floor. On top of that we allow our tax funded military to be co-opted as a mercenary force to provide the cover for multi-national corporate ambitions to mine and harvest the global human capital.

Of course, the Left – no different from the Right – grand stand for veterans, ceding them benefits and status for their “service” above ordinary citizens. And too, they both are eager to sell national sovereignty to buy the Hispanic vote that they know will quickly become the future swing vote via amnesty.

But then,…..we citizens really are only human capital.

Ah the wish psychology - so American! Any body can be anything they want. The little black boy who can't master even basic math can grow up to be an astronaut or engineer. So childish - which is different than the "child like" enjoined by Christ and other Masters. You don't know the difference, which is your personal pre/trans complex.

This explains why so much of quantum mechanics remains inexplicable...
==============

Dale, do quantum mechanics have grease under their fingernails? If so I would change your sentence above to read: This explains why so many quantum mechanics remain inexplicable...

Seriously though, every Mon, Wed, and Fri my wife gets her 89.5 year old demented mother together - hair combed, teeth brushed, eyebrows and lipstick on, etc - and I drive her 1/4 mile to a very nice day care for seniors. My m-i-l's mind is going, going, but not quite gone. If asked what day of the week is it today there's a 1 in 7 chance she'd say Friday.

She fights us tooth and nail about going. A dozen times before we leave she asks "do they tell me what to do when I get there?" and "Do I keep this jacket on when I get there?"

Sometimes I play with her head and say "Mom, what do you mean 'do they tell me what to do when I get there?' ... you're teaching the quantum mechanics class today ... DON'T tell me you don't have your lesson plan ready!!"

And sometimes for variety (not that she would actually remember) instead of quantum mechanics I say "boolean algebra." (It sounds so freakin complicated.) And then I say "the answer to your other question is 'only if you feel cold'." Then she says "Huh?"

So how can two bright people disagree so vehemently? What good is intelligence is this is possible? Obviously one of us (you) has his intelligence chained and imprisoned by dogma. It can work fine on subjects without political content.

There was a fascinating show at the Harvard Museum a couple of years ago about the color of ancient art. Don't know about the Greeks, but the Romans painted all their sculpture these, to our eyes, horrible, bright, gaudy colors. Even after the centuries, there were traces left of these even to the naked eye. But the Creator of the show said that Ruskin and Company loved the aesthetic of the "Eton Marbles" so much that they kept quiet about it. I like that aesthetic too. The reality was horrible - try googling it for some pictures perhaps. The reconstruction was done scientifically with modern instruments.

that s a cute story, but how did you miss THAT 』??!!

"Wow! What threat did Merkel make that scared Papandreu MORE than millions of really pissed off Greeks? Amazing!" -wageL-

Wage - based on my knowledge of human nature, no threat was made. What was made was a bribe - although we'll probably never be able to prove it.

You don't think Popandreu would sell out his countrymen if the price was right??

Almost every single one of our US Senators and almost every single House member - does it every single day.

Why should the Greeks be different?

I'm going to be deep undercover amidst these beautiful, brilliant, leftist loons.
===========

Vlad, I must tell you today, I love many of your comments ... your willingness to speak the truth that must not be spoken, and your skill at doing it.

I particularly like the excerpted line above, with its double alliteration: beautiful, brilliant, leftist loons.

You are so right, we are nothing but human capital and the capitalists are trying to lower our costs to be competitive with Chinese labor.

We have also lost our national sovereignty to multi-national corporations. The Battle for Seattle in 1999 was an attempt to stop the WTO from totally destroying all national political attempts to rein in the multi-nationals.

That is why now, when finance capital has taken over, it is not any great reform to bring back Glass-Stegall, which was in effect in 1999, when we'd already lost so much.

What's the point of going back to 1999? When WTO had already destroyed a lot of America's sovereignty?

But, you are so easily misled when you blame immigrants for this destruction. Dude, look up, not down!!

There wouldn't be any immigrants if the 1% didn't want them here!!

Divide and conquer is the age old way of retaining rule, and your hatred towards cheaper labor, instead of the people who profit, plays right into their hands. Wake up.

You're one to talk...

Anyways, why should I have peace, love, and understanding for people who want me to burn in hell forever? They push. I push back. Simple really.

Yeah, I came up with the same reason. See my 12:45 post.

"You've swallowed the camel, Prog. The media has demonzied hate and you bought it. Hate is natural - it's natural to hate your enemies."
-vlad-

Black men aren't your enemy, Vlad. Not if you create a "place" where white men and women can live and practice the "best" of your philosophies.

But if you live in that place and talk Black intelligence and Black criminality - you make an enemy where none need exist.

Your problem is that you have only one view of the future - a ultimate race war of all against Whites.

If you are correct - then some day you will find me beside you holding a rifle and battling to the bitter end. I'll transcend time and place, to back this vow, and back you up. And I'll be an asset and a good shot.

If you are wrong, though - you will find yourself permanently isolated behind your hate, unable to see God's better alternative - that a separate culture, YES - even a "White Culture" can live as they wish in America.

As long as the deeds AND their words - are peaceful.

I'm at least as white as you, Vlad, and a Hell of a lot more Southern. I understand the hate, vengfulness, and blood lust that lurks in my blood. Some things are best left sleeping - forever if possible.

To wake them unnecessarily - is to pray for Hate for no reason.

Consider alternatives, Vlad.
There is more than one future.
Choose the best.

==============================================
This has been the best week of CFN comments in at least a month. Wish I could stay and battle with y'all. I'm out 'till next Monday, though. Unless my wife's and my "couples retreat" has WIFI.
Then I might sneak back in for a second or two.

that s a cute story, but how did you miss THAT 』??!!
===========

Huh? Miss what?

"The firm has committed numerous acts of fraud that extend beyond our shores. Goldman Sachs was instrumental in helping Greek authorities hide its mounting government budget deficit by selling swaps to the Greek government in return for future revenue streams. The Greek government was able through this arrangement to mask the loan which would have raised its budget deficit above euro zone limits. The sleights of hand now threaten to see Greece go into default and could trigger a massive banking crisis through Europe. The crisis has seen the Greek government unleash draconian austerity measures that are taken out on the backs of students, the poor and the working class. Goldman Sachs is a global criminal syndicate."

http://www.beaconequity.com/smw/14353/The-People-vs-Goldman-Sachs


soaker just pointed out that "the witch of hebron is now availble"...(see below) i just wonder how long it has been ther; i should ve caught it too...

OK - one more post

"There wouldn't be any immigrants if the 1% didn't want them here!!
Divide and conquer is the age old way of retaining rule, and your hatred towards cheaper labor, instead of the people who profit, plays right into their hands. Wake up."
-wage-

Wake up and do what Wage. One crisis at the time - I chose to oppose immigration first. What if the 1% are just a bunch of greedy goddam baby boomers and haven't thought through peak everything. I'm making it my job to wake the up.

You're against immigration, but you won't say so forcefully and frequently. Why? Something related to your left wing bona fides, perhaps?

Pick one or two problems and go to work.
The conspiracy is too big - that can't be solved.

What if the conspiracy is Russian/Chinese/Saudi PAC money f*cking the US up deliberately? It's not our own elite - it's someone else's.

That just makes it easier to fight.

===========================
Asoka said: (from memory)
"We need negative population growth in the US."

Would someone or two of you - please keep asking him how he suggests that this laudable goal be accomplished.

I'll be back.

Posted without proofreading - I'm in a hurry.

two cents =.02 = 2%...you see the progression
==============

Charles, the only thing 2 cents is 2 percent of is 1 dollar. Two cents is not, for example, 2 percent of $1.67...you get my drift?

Trip sed, ""The Science is just going to keep coming in faster and faster,.."

Yes, for fewer and fewer people. Still a net reduction of new technology in the hands of the proletariat. "

Let me get this straight: you claim the net economic reality is contraction- and that successively, the net amount of technology in the hands of proletariat (nice use of the technical terminology) will reduce.

The "iPhone" was released in 2007, the "4S" this year. The phone combines a high resolution movie camera with internet access and runs hundreds of times faster than a phone 10 years ago. Its got Yttrium, neodymium, cobalt, gold, silver, all sorts of other exotic metals in it. The backward baseball cap, baggy pants set on the local bus have it in one hand, a bag of MacDonald's in the other hand.

Both the GPS and Internet connectivity were developed by DARPA. The rare earths are from the Democratic Republic of the Congo and the People's Republic of (tortures artists, journalists, and political activists) China.

Some contraction. What kind of contraction is funneling all this rare and powerful technology to society's lowest common denominator. Car sales are back on top. Ford's number 1. The US economy grew at 2-3% last year, China at 9%. World GDP is going up, up, up. The Belo Monte in Para state of Brazil is commencing flooding 200 sq. km. of rainforest so that MacDonaldo's in Sao Paolo can keep the Deep Fryers running late into the night and people can charge their plug-in hybrid vibrators.

The 2.2 to 2.5 (who knows) billion south east Asians are all going gangbusters, building chemical factories, abandoning farms, and digging holes to shit if they don't happen to live near the riverbank.

Carbon release is proceeding apace every day. Women are popping out kids, immigration is accelerating, more oil is being found and tapped, gas is being fracked, the shale oil build-out is getting bigger and bigger, GE is building new factories all over the world.

You keep saying contraction, contraction, contraction. I think Yergin is a "hack" and CERA is an industry PR firm, but it really seems like the price of energy has simply provided incentive to develop and explore everywhere.

To me, the situation looks like a new normal: we're in a new phase, a new plateau, which puts contraction farther out, allowing more growth at the base, meaning increased "production". In the largely unregulated Global south, this means massive environmental destruction. NASA sees the fires burning from space and the second-world nations want the whole first-world corporate consumerism package. Brazil just ordered itself a nuclear submarine, for god's sake.

You live a charmed life on your 300 acre permaculture farm, Trip, but Mordor doesn't stop producing Orcs and lava just because its a nice day in the Shire.

"My neighbors are big bird watchers, and they regularly lament the disappearance of the species I see around in larger numbers every year with my own eyes."

Sauron uses the birds to search the countryside. The great fiery eye is ever watchful.

"Once the contractionary phase begins, which is now 4-5 years in the rear view, the growth phase ends."

The growth phase has not ended because new sources of hydrocarbons are coming online and being exploited at the current high price-point. You deny this?

"Debt isn't growing, money devaluing, across the board, because global exploitation is still moving along right on schedule. These things are happening because these people, these governments, these financial institutions, are experiencing contraction in their world."

This is where you put the cart in front of the horse. You argue that global exploitation is reversing, because of a lack of access to energy and/or capital.

I think the purely economic phenomena of bank failures and systemic financial cancer have nothing to do with the real economy, but structural failures of an organizational system. Its not a resource-dependent event. You cannot say on one hand that contraction of primary energy supplies is the reason there is a net increase in ecosystem recovery. It would be nice, but you don't live in that world and neither do I.

Not the least of which is there is no evidence of either resource shortage, or ecosystem recovery, at this point, on a net basis or otherwise. If contraction were occuring we'd see a shrinkage of the economy. That doesn't seem to be occuring, nationally or globally. We don't see more species in ecosystems every year, only less (and less healthy ecosystems).

I don't what you've been smoking down there in Georgia, Trip. Maybe your kids are telling YOU stories at bedtime. I don't know.

"You're such an American, Tripp. Thinking that your private efforts will counteract massive destruction."

I honestly have no idea what you're talking about, Wage. I'm simply one person responding proactively to a tidal shift in the way humans live in their environment. But you know how to eat an elephant, don't you, Wage? There will never be an adaptive response to contraction if the models aren't built to stand out against the backdrop of the cultural narrative. We can't make minor adjustments to the existing system; it has to be overhauled all the way down to our most basic assumptions. If you don't believe whole-heartedly in the old saying "in order to change the world you must change yourself," then you probably haven't done very much to change yourself.

Reminds me of Derrick Jensen. When asked if he thought his actions would make the world a better place, he responded, "absolutely not." And then when asked if he would ever give up because of that lack of impact, he replied, "not on your fucking life."

But you're right, Wage, I AM an American. The kind of American I'd like to see more of. Americans started off a lot more like me. It's the jingo masses who have become un-American. But most of these folks don't realize that they are screwing up the place so badly; if they did I believe most of them would do the right thing and change. Probably radically.

Wouldn't it be inconvenient for us all if Peak Oil didn't happen soon enough to stop the hotboxing of the planet with unbearable levels of greenhouse gasses? It sure would, unless you plan on being dead in the next couple decades.

Trip saith, "If you don't believe whole-heartedly in the old saying "in order to change the world you must change yourself," then you probably haven't done very much to change yourself."

I heard some very good jive talk about that catchphrase, something to the effect of, it was bullshit. I think it was Derrick Jensen, in fact, who discussed it. The quote, attributed to Gandi, was in fact a false attribution. And the "old" saying wasn't all that old. It was something an enterprising T-shirt and bumper sticker maker clamped onto to sell to the hippies at festivals.

When you look at "you must be the change you want to see in the world" it starts to sag under its own weight as a universal truth.

There are hundreds of people walking by the urban scene I am looking at over the top of my laptop. And invariably, they all follow this ethos. They all are exactly the kind of people they want to see in the world. They want a personally-powerful society of 24/7 socializers. They want the world to change- to a world filled with people with a certain kind of haircut, a certain standard of apparent affluence, a car, etc. They accept the middle-class standards and expect the world to live up to those standards. They are being the change they want to see in the world. They are happy to hear about the net increase in ecosystem health. Perhaps they subscribe to Trip's twitter feed.

Here's an experiment: I'll go outside and invite someone to give up their car for the sake of the environment. "Why?" they object. "Trip's twitter feed says its all good!"

Yeah, well, when you print up a trillion fresh dollars every few months, I imagine it's fairly easy to make the numbers look rosy. For a while.

And calling American kids who live at home, ride the bus, and sport an iPhone 4S "society's lowest common denominator" is still exhibiting a lack of systems perspective. These kids have no other expenses, and mama and daddy are wiping out their savings accounts and taking on debt they never intend to pay back just to maintain appearances. Not to mention that, even as such, they are probably still at least top 20% wage earners globally. (Even if they're on unemployment and food stamps!)

There is indeed a cultural sickness all around us, but contraction is tooling along nonetheless. And the ones who keep keeping up appearances will probably fall the hardest. Best to adapt slowly as soon as you can. Or is that just too much effort? I suppose it would just be easier to go along with the "official report," whether that's the right's "nothing is wrong; keep pushing industry forward," or the left's "we've already done too much damage; there is no hope left." Both of those stances are exceedingly lazy.

Tell you what, you follow your pathway, and I'll follow mine, and we'll meet back up in 20 years to compare notes. K?

"I heard some very good jive talk about that catchphrase, something to the effect of, it was bullshit. I think it was Derrick Jensen, in fact, who discussed it. The quote, attributed to Gandi, was in fact a false attribution. And the "old" saying wasn't all that old. It was something an enterprising T-shirt and bumper sticker maker clamped onto to sell to the hippies at festivals."

That's great, Blow Job. And it's pretty obvious you've never had much to celebrate in your life. You hate just about everything except the science and technology that delivered us to our current predicament. I get it. You don't have anything resembling an answer, and hate anyone who might. We get it. Now go be miserable by yourself and stop being such a terrorist.

Vlad sess, "Women should be allowed to do whatever they like - and take the consequences. Be a whore? And never marry and end up alone. Divorce her loving hard working husband? And move out and get a job to help support the children. Contract breakers get penalized in real life - not rewarded. Of course men have to pay their way too."

But aren't "consequences" produced? Its not as if choices and decisions don't have consequences. I'm not sure I understand but there are consequences for children, society, the environment, the future, men, "institutions" like marraige, etc. ad nauseum. The progressive trend is toward less and less marriage. Is this the downfall of western society? I doubt it. Better to have less marriage contracts if the majority of those are dysfunctional.

Women are gamely taking up the slack in the realms of corporate governance and business... because men by and large have allowed them to do so, and cheered them on, and even stayed at home to raise the kids. We have a sort of fucked up bifurcated model of manhood. On one hand it has males prepared for the brutality of military action and combat, whether fighting the enemy for treasure or destroying the environment for resources. After that window of ignomy (18-35) closes, men drop out of the system. Women never see that kind of socialization- they are on a different life plan. They steam through the 18-35 period without any of the expectations and then want to have a child to attain self-fulfillment.

The two life-paths are perfectly paired. The men don't want to be a corporate whore- they'd frankly rather dig ditches, work on their feet exposed to the elements, get shot at, or clean diapers, having had to deal with their fathers' generation's legacy of toxic psychological effects visited by the corporate milieu.

At the same time, corporate work becomes more project oriented, collaborative, and technology and first world economies rely more on bullshitting. The corporate environment is a 24/7 fashion show with a soothing musak soundtrack, a nuclear social circle, and thousands of jobs that require long hours typing on the internet, talking into a headset, making coffee, and organizing ideas into powerpoints and attractive prospectus. And at the end of the week, an attractively fat check falls in your lap with enough zeros on it to go shopping for frilly female crap every weekend. And women do seem to enjoy it. No men are falling over themselves to stop women from going to these workplaces. There is no glass ceiling.

These days the model of the hard-working husband is one where he has her kid on his hip and he's making dinner as she comes in the front door. Or he works too and one of them picks the rug rat up from a day-care professional.

Vlad: "Feminist Theory is written by lesbos and commies who want throw a wrench into the works so they are to be ignored."

Sorry dude, but capitalism writes women's meal tickets, not communism. "Feminist Theory" has no real social power. It's just a theory of history with no real bearing on anything. Most Women don't choose their lifestyles based on social justice "movements" or "philosophy". Its utilitarian in nature. I want X, these are the means: Y and Z. Women don't "justify" their choices through political analysis. I think that is what you are lamenting- that people don't choose to live a life based on "higher principles". By and large, you are absolutely right, except that most women consider their material sufficiency to be precisely that higher principle. And once they have a child, that principle becomes sufficient for them to ignore any kind of philosophical meta-analysis of lifestyle or purpose. Through childbirth, men are inducted into this automatic realm of absolute principle. With the decline of fatherhood, you have more and more men without intrinsic "higher purpose" in life and are thus compelled to drop out of "productive society", and debate and lament "higher principles", which they will never find the mass of women to be among the audience.

The only way to get women to consider a wider, more conceptual idea of higher principles, is when a certain critical mass of the the people they socialize with begins to be concerned with it. In order to shift the locus of conversation, you'd have to hit them where they live- in the material basis of their means. E.g. interrupt the flow of capital. Of course this is impossible, since capital is the raison d'etre of their project being corporate America's shock troops.

I order to be the change you want to see in the world, Vlad, you will have to become an attractive, demure, and conceptually philosophical woman engaged in wholesome, responsible self-sufficiency far from the stripmalls and material excesses of contemporary American capitalism. I applaud your efforts. Link to some pictures on Flickr when you make the transformation.

But you're right, Wage, I AM an American. The kind of American I'd like to see more of.
---------------------------------------
What you lack in money you make up for in self-esteem, I guess.

BTW, I think Americans would all be more attractive if they looked like me. But, don't tell anyone I said so.

Trips: "You hate just about everything except the science and technology that delivered us to our current predicament. I get it. You don't have anything resembling an answer, and hate anyone who might. We get it. Now go be miserable by yourself and stop being such a terrorist."

Science: good. Technology: good.

Its the global economy which is leveraging science and technology to generate the destruction and waste that is so costly.

The world should enter an intercessionary phase. Instead of continuous generation of technology by end-consumer mandate, it should be appropriate toward higher goals for humanity and the planet in general.

For example, we all want global telecommunications. Today, we have the iPhone. But today's iPhone is 2020's model-T ford antique. Steve Jobs went before investors in 2009 bragging about selling tomorrow's garbage.

In other words, the concept I'm advancing here is that "star trek" levels of technology are possible but we're not going to get there by churning through all the resources on intermediate technologies.

Capitalism's narrative tells us that "the market" created things like the iPhone- but that is complete bullshit. The iPhone's technology was made possible by advances in basic scientific research.

Science is being bled dry by having the impetus for basic research controlled by private interests and the defense industry. Our technological progress so far has made life better only if you're a 19 year old predator drone pilot sitting in front of a monitor in an underground air force base in Colorado. In between putting several pounds of high explosives on someone's forehead on the other side of the world, your iPhone rings- instead of a jarring ring, its a recording of Vanilla Ice. You use an app to order a pizza to your house.

Twenty years ago grad students worked long hours trying to figure out how to attach electrons to a tungsten substrate. Did they have any idea of what their labor would result in? Economists say the "Creative destruction" of capitalism is necessary to advance technology. To what end, I ask? And why was it necessary to produce so much waste and destruction in the intercession between truly amazing extensions of capability, and the merely "cool"?

What is required for the future survival of humanity and the planet is a generation of people who will sacrifice. And its not really much of a sacrifice. Its not as if modern people don't have it extremely good.

It is this system of dog-eat-dog capitalism that terrorizes people into consuming. Instead of collaborating toward a comfortable future, we have a massive competition between a large cohort of losers, winners with mediocre intercessionary technology, and permanent reductions in carrying capacity with attendant growth in entropic waste streams. This whole project of business as usual is terminally flawed and must change if anyone is going to have a decent future.

Capitalism is the problem. It needs to be throttled, regulated, and restricted. People need guaranteed health care, incomes, and basic needs met in order to liberate their value as people and liberate them from be forced to work against their interests, against the planet and against the future.

You say you are embarrassed for me re: Buddhism? You are an authority on Buddhism on CFN?
-----------------------------------------
Nah....just another practicioner, but that doesn't stop me from spotting naked nonsense when I see it, and when it's passed off as Buddhism?....Yes I do get a little embarressed or even annoyed. So, I guess your magical teaching techniques ARE having an affect.

Wage: "As far as people having little impact on Earth, I pointed out last week that anaeorbic bacteria (which are even smaller) managed to poison the atmosphere so badly that the remnants of them must huddle underground, waiting for someone to step on a nail or something, thus giving them an opportunity to flourish in an oxygen-deprived environment.

If they can do it, so can we!"

That is a great example of how fragile this system is and what an organism can do to the system given enough time and energy. The religious dogma, that we are somehow "greater" than animals (a la EF Schumacher) - somehow not bound to the same laws that govern the dynamics of single-celled organisms works against basic understanding of our effects on the ecosystem.

Its all there in the analogy: Here we are. The population, growing. The resources, finite and shrinking. The poisonous waste products accumulating. Its doesn't get any clearer than this.

And sometimes for variety (not that she would actually remember) instead of quantum mechanics I say "boolean algebra." (It sounds so freakin complicated.) And then I say "the answer to your other question is 'only if you feel cold'." Then she says "Huh?"
-------------------------------------------------
Huh??

The kind of American I'd like to see more of.
----------------------------------------
Or! you could spend more time looking in the mirror.

Don't mind me I get a little nutty in the afternoon.

Wage: "Americans need to get over the belief that the ruling class has any loyalty to the working class."

Its true, absolutely true. As soon as a consumer base decides it doesn't want the latest fashion, the latest gadget, or all the accoutremout of modernity, the cult of self-fulfillment as presented by the Marketing Moguls, they are going to leave without even turning off the lights. They will strip mine the planet to serve anyone who is willing to pay for the dream. And so far that is the dream of the global south and east asia. A chicken in every pot, a washer/dryer combo, and a personal automobile. Corporate America is not a moderl citizen; its a headless psychopath.

Funny that the internet science squad thinks they know enough about Quantum Mechanics to determine that it isn't an accurate assessment of reality. I assume you're all particle physicists?

The thing about science, as opposed to post-modern philosophy ("But what can we really know?!") or religion ("God told me.") is that it WORKS. The computer that you use to write posts here is the result of incremental research over many years, verified and tested by multiple sources. In essence, scientific observation and experiment has provided an accurate assessment of the behavior of electrons, at least good enough to build the magnificent piece of electronics sitting on your desk or your hand. Try using torturous, circular examinations of semiotics to do that and then we'll talk.

"What you lack in money you make up for in self-esteem, I guess."

Who says I lack money? Oh, you mean those little bits of paper that are fast becoming worthless, don't you? No, I don't have a lot of use for that nonsense.

And I'm sure you're quite striking, Dale. You definitely project that.

Funny that the internet science squad thinks they know enough about Quantum Mechanics to determine that it isn't an accurate assessment of reality. I assume you're all particle physicists?
--------------------------------------
....and since you know so much about religion, that makes you a rabbi?

"The religious dogma, that we are somehow "greater" than animals (a la EF Schumacher) - somehow not bound to the same laws that govern the dynamics of single-celled organisms works against basic understanding of our effects on the ecosystem."

You can't just go to Wikipedia, get a sound bite, and come back pretending to know one of the most important people in the history of the world. Sorry. Schumacher had so many good points to make that I think I can forgive him one little conceit.

"Its all there in the analogy: Here we are. The population, growing. The resources, finite and shrinking. The poisonous waste products accumulating. Its doesn't get any clearer than this."

What do you want people to do, BJ? Just bemoan how terrible this all is, and stick their heads in the sand, determined to let someone else take care of the situation? That's a really crummy role to choose for yourself.

The pattern is indeed all set up. We see it, brother. We're not stupid. But if your plan is to just throw up your hands, and cry doom, count me out. As MessianicDruid says, there's always a remnant.

"Or! you could spend more time looking in the mirror. "

The funny thing is, these days, sometimes I go for days without seeing my reflection. More's the pity;) You part your hair on the left, don't you? You sly dog.

ProCon said: "Would someone or two of you - please keep asking him how he suggests that this laudable goal be accomplished."

=================

There is no need to ask Wage to do your work for you, ProCon.

You always want to "do something" about population reduction, when things are taking their course naturally. Uncontrolled birth-rates lead to increased death-rates. We will either use effective contraceptive methods, or the natural method (starvation) is what we are going to get.

A natural decrease in USA population is already happening (without us "doing" anything) as USA counties' deaths exceed births. A near-record number of USA counties are experiencing more deaths than births in their communities, due to an aging population, and a poor economy.

You need to chill, ProCon, about the immigration issue, too. It will all shake out. Right now record numbers of immigrants are leaving the USA to places where health care and education is available for their children.

Again, we don't need to "do" anything. It is already happening. As news spreads immigration will decrease even further. Skilled immigrants are leaving the U.S. in droves. Innovation that would otherwise be happening here is going abroad.

The USA will be worse off, ProCon, thanks to your anti-immigrant efforts. Good luck with rebuilding the USA with your high school drop-out good-ole-white-boys after you've chased out undocumented immigrants or prevented new immigrants from entering.

WARNING: Anything Asoka posts should be ignored, including this warning.

Since I don't subscribe to the basic tenants of religion, I don't feel the need to deeply investigate it. Is that flippant? Perhaps, but I'm perfectly comfortable with it. Given that the premises are false, why exactly would I waste my time?

You seem to attempt to put religion and science on an equal footing.

Next time you get sick, are you going to see a doctor or a faith healer?

Do you believe astrologers and priests views on the structure of the universe or do you look at the latest results from the Hubble telescope?

Do you sit and pray for God to bring you food or do you drive your SUV down to the supermarket?

If you really think they're equivalent, then put your money where your mouth is and start leading a religious life and let me know how that goes.

Religion is good for making people feel good, assuaging their terrors, and providing social structure. As an accurate assessment of reality, religion is completely useless, and attempting to put it on an equal footing as rigorous, peer-reviewed science used to construct complex technology is ludicrous, asinine and disingenuous (Try getting a priest to build you a computer).

The Christian and Jewish religions are essentially frozen philosophy and myths from two thousand years ago. Do you still use leeches to cure a cold? Do you think slavery is okay? Does Apollo pull the sun across the sky? Get with the program. Intelligent people have moved on.

Nearly everything that has ever been attributed to God has, over time, been taken over by the realm of science and explained. Used to be people thought that a divine entity created the earth, but astronomers now understand the gravitational effects that lead to space debris being pulled together into our little globe. The animals and people were put here by God. Oh, no wait, they evolved from simple molecular building blocks. And on and on.

Now that science has demolished religion in accurately assessing material reality, the religiously minded have very little room in which to maneuver. I call this the amazing shrinking God. No matter where you look, he isn't there.

"BTW, I think Americans would all be more attractive if they looked like me. But, don't tell anyone I said so."

Dude, even the women?! Scary... :)

You know I'm a scientist, right? It's not as if I'm a bullfighter talking about knitting.

I think it's interesting that the solutions you come up with for today's problems are just extensions of the same ol' same ol'. More regulation, more restriction, less free market. Just like an "enlightened" Aquarian, who has run out of room to expand in the physical construct and thinks it's a radical new idea to expand in the mental instead.

I agree that "Capitalism" is a broken system. It's based on the flawed concepts I mentioned from "The Wealth Of Nations," and therefore was doomed from the beginning. The free market, on the other hand, I equate with the Laws of Nature, which always function exactly as they are supposed to.

But science and technology as we know them are also products of the same culture based on flawed metaphysical cornerstones. They are no more objective and impartial than any other culturally-flawed pursuit. No matter how much you want them to be. If nothing else, think about the binary-ternary discussion we've had this week, and remember that most "objective" scientific experiments are set up with prove/disprove parameters, and no room for fundamentally different answers. Just another inaccurate binary, another false dichotomy. Like debating two different views of the reasons for Mars' retrograde motion based on the Ptolemaic model. (Pssst, hey guys, move the Sun to the center and it will make a lot more sense!)

But I'm not sure this is a discussion I really want to get into today. This one is bigger than we have time for. Just know that I find flaw with your arguments from the very bottom to the very top, and no minor tweeking is going to fix it.

"I think I can safely say that nobody understands quantum mechanics."
--Feynman

What I was arguing was not really in favor of any specific religion or tradition, but against what I would call creeping propeller headism, where everything is measured, counted and weighed endlessly by eggheads. And if it can't be weighed, counted, or measured, it is beyond the experience of the universe. The divine and mystic shouldn't be destroyed like this. Consumer culture is full of this kind of crap, if it isn't expensive, it isn't worth anything.

And also, it wouldn't hurt if leftists/communists acknowledged the society that produced them once in awhile, without the endless carping about racism, sexism, homophobia, etc, etc, etc and blaming it all on Christianity/God/ belief in God or some higher being.

"Here's an experiment: I'll go outside and invite someone to give up their car for the sake of the environment. "Why?" they object. "Trip's twitter feed says its all good!""

What if, instead of asking why?, they actually DID give up their car for the sake of the environment. And then another person, struck by the courageous act, gave up theirs and started a local trading bloc. Then another, then another, then...

I know single digits are mostly overlooked in our culture, but you can't get to a million without counting 'one' first. You can't give birth to a hundred pound baby. You just do what's right, what's adaptive, and if it really is, more people will follow.

See how that works? You changed yourself and managed to change the world too. Pretty easy concept really. (Especially if the response was environmentally/energetically driven!)

"most "objective" scientific experiments are set up with prove/disprove parameters, and no room for fundamentally different answers"

Oh come on tripp. You're supposedly a scientist and you write this?

Of course, there's room for new theories, e.g. entirely new ways of looking at things. This is one of the most basic attributes of science and it happens all the time (look at the development of astronomy over the last 20-30 years).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradigm_shift

For example, when particle scattering experiments showed that the plum pudding model was completely wrong, there was no more pudding.

What this usually means is that a new experiment is setup to test the brand new idea. If the new theory better explains the outcome, then hello Nobel Prize.

Enjoy.

Me like the Mencken.

http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/mencken.htm

I wish he was around today. He'd have a few things to say about all this fuzzy religious thinking going on here at CFN. :)

The milquetoast, mild, and non-irritating personalities. The glad-handlers.
================

There's no L Bust. It's "handers." See below:

glad-hander definition
n.
someone who displays effusive friendship, typically a politician.

Be that as it may, excellent rant on atheism and agnosticism. I'm not an expert in these areas but I recognize immediately that Vlad's statement that you can't prove God doesn't exist is worthless (no offense intended, Vlad). I think it is generally recognized that "you can't prove a negative."

In order to recover a check in the amount of $411.64 that my wife sent to the wrong insurance company, namely to Horizon BCBS, Horizon insisted we prove that my wife was no longer "in business." I had on file the confirmation document from the State of NJ where I had formally terminated her business in Sept 2010. In essence this procedure told the state that they would not be receiving the usual sales taxes collected from customers. The confirmation doc stated clearly: BUSINESS ENDED. A reasonable person would find this acceptable but not Horizon.

Next time you get sick, are you going to see a doctor or a faith healer?
-----------------------------------------
My wife is a doc, and the more I know about modern medicine the more frightened I get. Who knows? some day I just might go to a faith healer. Studies show that it works about as good as most drugs.

I think it is generally recognized that "you can't prove a negative."

--

I've never agreed with this assessment of reality and logic. There's actually an infinite number of things I can disprove given the right initial assumptions and scientific instruments.

Like for instance, you could most likely prove to me that there isn't a 500 lb. gorilla in the room with you right now, if we make the assumption that it is a normal one, e.g. not invisible or inhabiting some kind of alternate dimension.

"To argue that gaps in knowledge which will confront the seeker must be filled, not by patient inquiry, but by intuition or revelation, is simply to give ignorance a gratuitous and preposterous dignity."
--Mencken

Yeah, he's my hero. I admit it.

Just because a local culture and metaphysics are tied to a particularly lethal military-industrial package that has over-run the world, doesn't mean that the attendant local culture and metaphysics are universally correct. Sorry, but we're probably just going to have to agree to disagree on this one for now, Turkleton.

Besides, I've already argued your point of view, and eventually I found it wanting. I'd hate for you to get too bombastic about a paradigm that you discover later to be flawed. (And you will if all goes well.)

I dunno, dale, when I'm in severe pain I'll request some morphine rather the laying on of hands, but to each his own, I guess.

"Me like the Mencken."

And, believe it or not, your heroes will likely change too.

"I dunno, dale, when I'm in severe pain I'll request some morphine rather the laying on of hands, but to each his own, I guess."

Dale's not exactly alone in this one. In western medicine, the placebo effect is an outlier, something that gets in the way of empirical data. And that makes sense if you're trying to quantify something and publish the findings in such a way as to be reproduceable, which is a cornerstone of the scientific method. (Could we call that a lowest common denominator?)

But to most humans, throughout most of history, placebo effects are actually the desired response. Healing without toxic medicine is something to be studied in depth, not cast aside. Allopathic medicine is simply the high-energy product of a high-energy culture, and it will fail just as miserably in the long run.

Again, from a systems perspective, people who live in slow, sane, close-to-the-bone ways don't typically even have to deal with most of the problems caused by industrial culture. I.E. highly toxic ways call for highly toxic medicine.

In my opinion, westerners do trauma pretty well, but that's about the extent of their contact with "health," and most of that trauma wouldn't exist in a slower, saner lifestyle.

'You got gored by a buck in rut. That sucks, dude. You're going to die.' But compare that oddity with 40,000 automobile accidents every year in the US, and I hope you begin to see my point.

The thing about science, as opposed to post-modern philosophy ("But what can we really know?!") or religion ("God told me.") is that it WORKS
--------------------------------------------
You have me confused now, science "works" but technology is "bad? Where are the double blind results for that thesis?....;)

I wasn't talking "post-modern philosophy" Turkle, I was subjecting science to its own standards of proof. You can't have it both ways....and some times "science" would like to. Some of the most biased people I've ever met are scientists.

The fly in the ointment is that sometimes religion works too....even if for the wrong reasons most of the time.

My computer works (in spite of Microsoft) because scientific modeling was correct.....that's true. But it doesn't mean it is necessarily an accurate reflection of reality, in any circumstance other than running my computer.

The conventional model of the atom (still used in schools) of "little chunky stuff" flying around other "little chunky stuff" called "particles", may have partly got us to the computer....but it says little about the nature of reality. Some of these particles only have mass under certain circumstances, and even weirder....when you try to measure their speed they have no location! Understand....that doesn't mean we can't measure their location, it means they DON'T HAVE A LOCATION.

I guess "little chunky stuff" in particle physics is a little different than it is in our litttle world, No? For that matter, I guess "existance" is a little different as well.

What I'm suggesting is.... don't be overly awed by some of science's success - it's real alright -but it is also vastly exceeded by what science either doesn't know or has completely misunderstood.

I think you read me wrong. I've nothing against alternative forms of medicine, nor helpful activities like yoga or meditation. But to assume that these disciplines are somehow outside the realm of science is a big leap. Meditation, for instance, has well-known beneficial effects, but the mechanisms can and are studied using scientific principles. When you get down to brass tacks, there's really nothing non-physical or mystical about it, or at least there is no good reason to fill the gaps in our knowledge with fuzzy, religious ideas.

Nor does an embrace of scientific methodology necessitate acceptance of our current arrangements. In fact, many scientific topics and disciplines, such as ecology, Peak Oil, Climate Change, etc., indicate to me that humanity is in deep overshoot and that our current systems will not last much longer.

Tripp,
Guess you didn't hear about the tests they did on the "freeze-dried" 5,000 year old man? He was in his forties when he died. Turns out he had genetic markers for heart disease. Something modern medicine was disposed to think of as a product of modern living. Oh well....

What I'm hearing from tripp/dale is that because science can't fully explain the supposed "non-physical" nature of thoughts and other phenomenon (dale's words, not mine...I don't actually believe this conception), religion and other spiritual ways of thinking must be employed. I simply don't agree. This is similar to how nearly the entire universe used to be "explained" by religion, because people did not have science as a tool for gathering and extending knowledge. Now these gaps have been filled with actual knowledge, gleaned from a huge amount of experimental data, and religion simply isn't needed any longer. (I hope you all don't think we get diseases because some divine entity is punishing us or that the earth was created in 5000 years by Yahweh.)

Similarly, just because science has not fully explained the mind-body link or the nature of human thought, doesn't mean that religion has anything of value to say on the topic. Judging by its past performance in assessing reality, I'd say religion or spirituality in general are unlikely to provide much of a reality-based explanation for you there, or of anything really.

And then there's the fact that science is an absolutely huge topic. Just following all the publications in one narrow field is almost impossible. So don't you think it is somewhat arrogant to claim that you understand modern neuroscience well enough to reject its basic premises, simply because (I guess) you read a couple books on Buddhist philosophy?

When you get down to brass tacks, there's really nothing non-physical or mystical about it, or at least there is no good reason to fill the gaps in our knowledge with fuzzy, religious ideas.
---------------------------------------
Do you not see how you have imparted science with near religious values? Apparently, when science doesn't have an answer, it's "just a matter of time" until they get it right....if that's not omneiscience, I don't know what is.

dale/tripp/asoka, this is pretty cool stuff right here...

http://kellymcgonigal.com/2011/08/18/article-this-is-your-brain-on-meditation/

Took a course from this woman, and she's absolutely brilliant.

What I'm hearing from tripp/dale is that because science can't fully explain the supposed "non-physical" nature of thoughts and other phenomenon (dale's words, not mine...I don't actually believe this conception), religion and other spiritual ways of thinking must be employed.
-----------------------------------------
Turkle, please don't put words in my mouth, I never said you can explain thoughts in terms of religion....or suggested anything of the kind.

What I did point out was, some times science wants to avoid its own standards of proof and make assertions that can't be supported by the facts. Once you can acknowledge that, you start to see the how it is adopting some of the same tactics as religion.

I can pretty much agree with all of that. We're definitely in trouble. How quickly it all pans out, who knows, but I completely disagree with Bean when he says that no one really knows the carrying capacity of Earth. After 6 million years of hominid evolution man never numbered one billion until fossil energy sources were tapped. That gives me some indication of a typical carrying capacity, especially considering how fast humans filled up new territory as soon as it was opened to them. To say that they simply lacked the ability to exploit their surroundings effectively enough is racist, and probably a product of wishful thinking.

Add to that the fact that each of the 8 times more humans than usual uses far, far more energy, some of us obscenely more, than ANY of those pre-industrial people did, and a disastrous recipe has obviously been not only combined, but put in the oven, and is damn near finished cooking.

I guess my point about medicine, though, is that modern allopathic medicine is actually the alternative, the temporary, based on an anomalous culture. The other stuff is the real medicine, based on millenia of experience. I wasn't suggesting that religion and mysticism were analogous replacements for science and medicine (of whatever stripe). That was probably someone else.

So don't you think it is somewhat arrogant to claim that you understand modern neuroscience well enough to reject its basic premises,
----------------------------------------
Turkle, if the "basic premise" of neuroscience is that's there is some sort of "thought generator" between your ears, that's fine as a theory.....but what I'm saying is THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO PROOF OF THAT.

"He was in his forties when he died. Turns out he had genetic markers for heart disease. Something modern medicine was disposed to think of as a product of modern living. Oh well...."

Does having the genetic markers for heart disease mean that he in fact HAD heart disease? I mean, I have the genetic markers for both fish and amphibian hearts in my genome, and ended up with the normal mammalian one. And really, one man with the disease, if he in fact did have it, doesn't say much about the rampancy of it in that era.

Sorry, didn't mean to give you the wrong impression, e.g. that I believe we're headed towards the technological singularity where all will be explained.

Science will never answer all our questions, because there are an unlimited number of them. At some point, the endless succession of "But why?"s has to cease with a "Well, I really don't know."

And some areas may simply be completely inaccessible to us, e.g. the ultra small, other dimensions, other universes, etc. The humanly accessible areas, given the right experiments and instruments, should be explainable by scientific principles, at least in theory. Will this space ever be completely explored? Quite unlikely. At any rate, what other methodology do you propose for discovering the ways of reality?

That's the thing with religion. It has easy answers, which almost always turn out to be wrong. That's because some priest or other religious type just made it up or spent to much time dehydrated in the desert and started hallucinating things.

If you feel that you need simple answers to absolutely all of your questions, even if these answers are lies, then, yes, I guess religion might be for you.

"To say that they simply lacked the ability to exploit their surroundings effectively enough is racist, and probably a product of wishful thinking."

And if the answer is that they didn't possess agriculture, then I rest my case about agriculture's fundamental unsustainability.

Okay, so if your brain isn't generating your thoughts, what is then, dale? I don't really follow what you're getting at here, nor do I respect your simplistic opinions on what is possibly the most complex scientific discipline out there (e.g. neuroscience). Simply because you say "there is no proof" (in all caps no less) means nothing to me. Have you read through all the primary literature? Are you up on all the latest developments? You're going to have to do better than just telling me there is no proof when thousands of well-educated scientists who study that field for a living have reached the opposite conclusion.

"some times science wants to avoid its own standards of proof and make assertions that can't be supported by the facts"

Okay, I concede that this sometimes happens. But it isn't the general rule, nor is it proper science. Generally agreed upon principles and theories are generally well-supported by experiments and observation, if only because they are utilitarian (take the neuroscience paradigms with which you so vehemently disagree).

Whereas religious people never provide any support with facts, or at least this is completely secondary to "revealed truth" through "faith," e.g. philosophical schizophrenia.

What I meant by that was that americans are taught to think that they are rugged individualists, making their own way in the world, not beholden to society in any way.

I know that you don't think that, but the idea that keeping 300 acres pristine, while Monsanto and Dow sell hundreds of tons of poison, which is dumped onto the rest of the country, will allow a regeneration of the ecosystem.

Personally, as I've said before, I have lived simply for decades, and not in the Greer way of buying different consumer products. I also, as you know, have been trying for 17 years to create a food-producing place, while living 2.3 miles from work, so I can walk if the oil runs out.

Although, as it turns out, my job will run out before the oil. Doh!

Have I had any affect on the people around me? Not so's you'd notice.

Recently, someone brought in a picture of me taken 15 years ago. Someone snidely commented that I was probably still wearing those same scrubs. Well, I probably am. What's more, I'm still wearing the same coat I wore 20 years ago in California, which my Mom bought at a thrift store and gave to me.

The reason I am in the Green Party is because the rot is systemic, and must be changed in a systemic way.

You can ride a moped all you want, but the more effective way to lessen oil use is for Congress to pass CAFE standards and lower the speed limit and make sure they are upheld.

As for building the new society within the old - hell, yeah! That's the only way we are going to really have a better society.

But I'm thinking more co-ops, and small energy producers and stuff like that, which will be there when the big stuff breaks down.

As far as bird habitat goes, it will take a large effort to protect it, not a small one.

I went to an EPA hearing on the local forest once. I hung with the Audubon Society and Sierra Club people, facing off against the four-wheeler and horse camp people.

They wanted to destroy the forest that we have. We wanted to expand it, because unbroken canopy is needed for some birds. One person's land can't provide unbroken canopy.

That was my point. I hope I've made it clearer.

People need guaranteed health care, incomes, and basic needs met
==============

My eyes roll back in my head when I read statements like this^. On the surface such sentiments seem admirable but all these things guaranteed? ... by whom? ... at whose expense?

For Chrissakes, my new laptop failed 35 days after I bought it and you think 7 billion people should be guaranteed their health care, incomes, and basic needs (food, clothing, and shelter?) ... womb to tomb, I assume. That's a good one, ha ha.

I think you, Wage, 8M, and Lawrence O'Donnell would get along nicely over a couple of beers and a few racks of 8-Ball. Wage drinks Bud straight from the bottle.

I wasn't talking to you, prog, but of all the crises facing us, immigration strikes me as one of the most trivial. It's true that immigrants waste more energy as soon as they get here, but compared to the US military, for example, it's not that much more in the scheme of things.

Pick one thing, and you pick immigration? I do think that's bizarre.

Militarism, endless war, the destruction of human rights at home and abroad, global warming, species extinction, peak oil, depression, and you want me to join your anti-immigration group? It's too laughable to consider.

And you're not paying attention. It's not "our" elites vs other elites.

There is a global elite. They have more in common with each other than they do with us peons. I don't think it's preferable to be destroyed by an American elite than a Chinese or Saudi one. That is another bizarre belief.

Morphine is made from opium, a drug used for centuries.

If I get cancer, I want it. Screw the chemo, I agree with you there.

But you'll have to pick another example of allopathic medicine to diss, not morphine.

I do not. I drink martinis with two olives.

'A natural decrease in USA population is already happening (without us "doing" anything) as USA counties' deaths exceed births.
A near-record number of USA counties are experiencing more deaths than births in their communities, due to an aging population, and a poor economy.'

Gee..ya havent been to SoCal lately....3 hours to drive 60 miles down the coast.

Counties and cities may be 2 different places....

Morphine just got shuffled into a larger discussion, Wage, sorry, I have nothing against morphine. I fully intend to grow plenty of opium poppies in my garden when the time comes...

But that's old medicine.

"Gee..ya havent been to SoCal lately....3 hours to drive 60 miles down the coast."

The urbanization trend continues predictably, and blinds the lion's share of the population to what's really going on.

Interesting discussion,It appears there is much disagreement about neuroscience, and the scientific method itself. Let's change the topic to PEAK OIL.

In Colombia oil output has roughly doubled in five years to almost one million barrels a day, set to climb to 1.7 million barrels by 2020.

In Brazil oil output is increasing from just above two million barrels a day to more than five million by 2020, about the equivalent of adding another Kuwait to world oil production.

SOURCE: New York Times, October 10, 2011

Ho hum.

World oil reserves continue to increase.

Peak oil will have to wait.

Another week has passed without the sky falling in Europe.

WARNING: Anything Asoka posts should be ignored, including this warning.

"They wanted to destroy the forest that we have. We wanted to expand it, because unbroken canopy is needed for some birds. One person's land can't provide unbroken canopy.

That was my point. I hope I've made it clearer."

It does. But my point was not that my actions are in themselves creating a more intact large-scale ecology, but simply that my observations of the world around me don't jive with the official report. E.G. I saw 4 Northern flickers in one spot yesterday, and that isn't supposed to happen.

That seems to have been missed somewhere in all this, and I get accused of playing god instead.

Counties and cities may be 2 different places....

================

Really? You mean cities are not located in counties? The United States Census says one in four counties are dying, as in population dying, population decreasing.

Instant Karmas' gonna get You !
and me.

Yep you are so right.
looks like i am going down that road also.
learning the hard way.
old and poor !
great ! well you are far from alone.

That makes no sense.
that isn't what wage said. or meant anyway.
how did you get that from the quote ? anyway. just sayin'.

Good, dump ol' ATT. If you research it, there are plenty of cheaper, or even free alternatives to having a wired, land-line connection. There are lots of wireless internet of various kinds too, in fact, you might be able to find a free wifi network in your area, just do the research man, you dont have to be totally disconnected from the WWW.
Dump ATT, hook up wirelessly, and get Skype, or Google talk, and who needs a landline?

Note, if you are using a desktop PC, you can get a USB wireless gizmo for it too, you don't have to have a laptop.

Good luck, Dee

"In Colombia oil output has roughly doubled in five years to almost one million barrels a day, set to climb to 1.7 million barrels by 2020."

Tell me again what Saudi Arabia's output has done in the past 5 years? Oh yeah, that's right, it's declining by 700k barrels/day/year. So another 700k barrels/day from Brazil nearly a decade from now accounts for what again?

Honestly, systems thought, my friend. Having a great acorn squash harvest all of a sudden doesn't mean you have a productive garden!

my observations of the world around me don't jive with the official report.
===========

Oh my freakin God!! No ... not you TOO Tripp. You're too smart for this.

Vlad,

On second though I actually agree with some of your political comments. Specifically, you mentioned a 'limited form of socialism' as a prescription for modern society. You also stated that the Tea Party was a GOP front. Again, I agree.

Your racism is bizarre, however. I sense that you would never malign any one individual based upon race, but you generally disdain others who are not white, hence your call for segregated sections of the country. In essence, you live in a temple of fantasy, divorced from the reality of racial evolution.

And as far as Jews go - another group you condemn - have you ever considered that your ancestors may have been Jewish? Forced and coerced conversions were quite common in Germany at one point with many middle-class/educated Jews converting to Catholicism, especially in Bavaria.

Thanks, Dee! Trust all is well in ex-pat-ville?

I hate that jive/jibe thing, though I thought about you specifically before I hit submit. I just like the word jive, can't help it.

There, does that make you feel better, sir?

"I think you, Wage, 8M, and Lawrence O'Donnell would get along nicely over a couple of beers and a few racks of 8-Ball. Wage drinks Bud straight from the bottle."

When I read that I thought about Auntie M too, but I guess I had more pressing fish to fry!

Asoka, you only mentioned Colombia and Brazil. What about Venezuela? Venezuela surpassed Saudi Arabia this year as the nation with the largest oil reserves, at 1.19 trillion barrels.

That gooey nougat center just keeps on giving and giving. Could petroleum be abiotic, product of a tectonically quiet continual upward fluid migration?

Your fellers need to relax. Go out tomorrow and git urself some of them thar Groupon stocks at 20 bucks each. Put em aside and the grandkids will have a nice little nestegg in 30 years. Joe and Jane.

The United States Census says one in four counties are dying, as in population dying, population decreasing.
=========

So, since I am good with simple arithmetic, that would mean 3 of 4 counties are either growing or remaining the same. Let's cut the irrelevant "counties" crap and go to the net net. US population (not to mention, world population)is forecast to grow through this century. The birth/death ratio is an element and immigration/emigration is another element.

Your case for net population decrease is another instance of AsokaFail.

"The gap will widen as the Movement gains numbers. Inevitable."

Trained from childhood to be the World Teacher, Krishnamurti emerged onto the stage at his first public address, surrounded by throngs of his devoted followers, there to suck the marrow out of his every word, and, being the truly wise man that he was, basically dissolved the movement within a few minutes.

Reminds me of Monty Python's "The Life of Brian."

[Brian] "You are all individuals!"

[Multitude in unison] "YES! We are all individuals!"

[Brian] "Don't let anyone tell you what to do!"

[Multitude in unison] "NO! We won't let anyone tell us what to do!"

[Brian] "Now fuck off!"

[Multitude in unison] "How shall we fuck off, Oh Lord?"

Paraphrased of course. I suppose all movements with promise draw plenty of pretenders. Along the way they usually hear something that requires them to make sacrifices they are unwilling to make, and so they join the next shiny movement, looking for easy salvation.

Be careful spending time undercover in a movement with some balls. You might hear something you like!

"Could petroleum be abiotic, product of a tectonically quiet continual upward fluid migration?"

For everyone's sake, let's hope not. Peak oil is the only salvation I see in the modern landscape.

"That's the thing with religion. It has easy answers, which almost always turn out to be wrong. That's because some priest or other religious type just made it up or spent to much time dehydrated in the desert and started hallucinating things."

Turkle, can you point us to the scientific proof of these statements. Or did you just make them up or believe someone else who believed someone else....who made it up?

"You alternate between saying very perceptive things, demonstrating an open mind. Then, you turn right around and make broad, sweeping declarations about the future based on little more than a very limited parsing of the data."

Translated: I agree with some of what you say, but the rest doesn't jibe with my interpretation, and therefore makes me uncomfortable.

Q said: "US population (not to mention, world population)is forecast to grow through this century."

=================

Q, you may be good at simple arithmetic, but you are QFail on probabilistic projections of world population.

I am going to give you the data for the rest of the century for forecasted population growth. World population will increase until 2079 (to 8.85 Billion), then stabilizes in 2080 (at 8.85 Billion), then goes down until 2100 (to 8.39 Billion).

This data comes for the journal NATURE, which is a peer-reviewed scientific publication. The article is titled: “The coming acceleration of global population ageing”. Population projections are what demographers do.

The data can be found here year by year until 2100:

Wolfgang Lutz, Warren Sanderson and Sergei Scherbov, IIASA’s 2007 Probabilistic World Population Projections, IIASA World Population Program Online Data Base of Results 2008

Sorry, Q.

Nice try though.

WARNING: Anything Asoka posts should be ignored, including this warning.

Do you think there's a snowball's chance in hell that these demographers have worked the full impact of peak oil into their calculations?

I too see a lag time for population peak, following energy peak, yes, but 2080?? Energy peak was 2006. We will all be very poverty stricken indeed if the global population continues to grow for 69 more years. I just don't see it.

What padding there is in the global economy resides in the first world, and population trends in those countries are pretty flat. As access to money/energy wanes, first world support of the developing world will also wane. To the point of non-existence I would think. We can certainly repurpose money/energy from frivolous activity into reproduction, but I honestly can't see peak global population lagging peak energy by more than 20? years. Surely not 74. Peak deforestation would probably fit in very close to peak population (that's not to say that the overall planetary ecosystem would still be in decline; young successional ecosystems sequester carbon very rapidly, but have little to no timber value), and I can't see that lagging peak energy by more than 20 years either.

Just my best guess though.

"Do you think there's a snowball's chance in hell that these demographers have worked the full impact of peak oil into their calculations?"

============

Tripp, I know some of the factors taken into consideration were levels of fertility, mortality, and migration.

If you really want to know if they considered peak oil, write to them and ask.

Further information: IIASA’s World Population Program at www.iiasa.ac.at/Research/POP

But you can't have it both ways.

You can't accept the math you like and reject the math that disagrees with your beliefs about peak oil.

If you have any empirical evidence (which is what the demographers are working with) published in a peer-reviewed scientific publication, I would be interested to see the citation.

Otherwise it is just your personal opinion (which you are free to express). Most people have opinions. They cherish them.

But science does not work that way. Science works from empirical fact, not opinions.

I took away some humor, and a little sadness, at the story of your mother-in-law. Happy that you and your wife engage her and take her out, but sad that she's a tad out of touch...it happens to people as they get older, you know.

I have an aunt who'll be 99 next February. She (technically) lives alone, yet is fortunate enough (like your mother-in-law) to have kin very close by, and they attend to her each and every day. To make a long story (I hope) short, I attended a family reunion near Washington D.C. within the last two years (Signs my mind is going...I SHOULD be able to remember if it was this past year or the year before, but I can't)!

Anyway, during our conversation together this aunt was making references to my mother, as though they were still living just two doors down, and how she wondered why my mother hadn't called her in many years. I sat very still, trying to keep my jaw from dropping, because my mother hasn't been alive in many, many years. All I could do was to smile and hold back a few tears. I saw in my aunt the person I shall become one day.

I think it would do us all a bit of good to realize that we're not always going to full of vim and vigor, and that one day, maybe, we'll need someone to be kind to us. Anyways, that's just my 2% ;)

I'm not too terribly concerned about what my peers are reviewing or concurring about. What's happening is so big that most of them would be afraid to mention it for fear of ridicule, even if they understood it. Best to just go with the flow, and keep your radical thoughts to yourself. Hey! I know! We could call declining energy reserves something more palatable, like declining fertility, or increasing mortality, couldn't we? [Not picking on you; picking on them.]

"Tripp, I know some of the factors taken into consideration were levels of fertility, mortality, and migration."

So probably not then. Thanks, Soak!

I think it would do us all a bit of good to realize that we're not always going to full of vim and vigor, and that one day, maybe, we'll need someone to be kind to us. Anyways, that's just my 2% ;)

=======================

Excellent message, MM.

I would only add that we start showing lovingkindness here, now, on CFN, and avoid ad hominem remarks.

For example, I thought it was rude of Dale, who I respect, to call me a solipsist and say that my messages should be ignored.

That was not kind, though I tried to make the best of it by showing the logical fallacy of issuing a warning to ignore which would logically imply ignoring the warning!

"Could petroleum be abiotic, product of a tectonically quiet continual upward fluid migration?"

No.

You got me, ront. I just make this shit up as I go along.

"WARNING: Anything Asoka posts should be ignored, including this warning."

Duly noted.

We're teaching a soap-making class here at the farm in the morning. Better get some sleep. Nighty-night, y'all.

Q, you are one jive turkey, getting all hot and bothered about other people's grammatical failings in internet comments. I mean really...who freaking cares? I might start peppering my posts with deliberate spelling and grammar mistakes just to give you a coronary.

ASOKA: "Could petroleum be abiotic, product of a tectonically quiet continual upward fluid migration?"

TURKLE: No.

=====================

"We have determined that Titan's methane is not of biologic origin," reports Hasso Niemann of the Goddard Space Flight Center, a principal NASA investigator responsible for the Gas Chromatograph Mass Spectrometer aboard the Cassini-Huygens probe that landed on Titan Jan. 14. Niemann concludes the methane "must be replenished by geologic processes on Titan, perhaps venting from a supply in the interior that could have been trapped there as the moon formed."

The studies announced by NASA will be reported in the scientific journal Nature.

"This finding confirms one of the key arguments in Black Gold Stranglehold: The Myth of Scarcity and the Politics of Oil, claims co-author Jerome R. Corsi. "We argue that oil and natural gas are abiotic products, not 'fossil fuels' that are biologically created by the debris of dead dinosaurs and ancient forests."

Methane has been synthetically created in the laboratory, Corsi points out, "and now NASA confirms that abiotic methane is abundantly found on Titan."

The realization that hydrocarbons are produced inorganically throughout our solar system was a key insight that led Cornell University astronomer Thomas Gold to write his 1998 book, The Deep Hot Biosphere: The Myth of Fossil Fuels. Gold wrote:

It would be surprising indeed if the earth had obtained its hydrocarbons only from a source that biology had taken from another carbon-bearing gas – carbon dioxide – which would have been collected from the atmosphere by photo-synthesizing organisms for manufacture into carbohydrates and then somehow reworked by geology into hydrocarbons. All this, while the planetary bodies bereft of surface life would have received their hydrocarbon gifts by purely abiogenic causes.

Gold wryly noted that he was sure there had not been any "big stagnant swamps on Titan" to produce the biological debris that conventionally trained geologists think was required on Earth to produce oil and natural gas as a "fossil fuel."

"If petroleum and natural gas are abiotic as we maintain in Black Gold Stranglehold, Corsi commented, "then the 'peak oil' fear that we are going to run out of oil may have been based on a giant misconception."

Paradigms in science change slowly and with great resistance, he noted, "But NASA has given us today incontrovertible evidence that Titan has abundant inorganic methane."

"If the scientists have ruled out that biological processes created methane on Titan, why do petro-geologists still argue that natural gas on Earth is of biological origin?" Corsi asked.

"For example, I thought it was rude of Dale, who I respect, to call me a solipsist and say that my messages should be ignored."

It's past Q's bedtime, so I'll have to step in on this, dear. It's "...rude of Dale, WHOM I respect...".

That being said, take good care of yourself, dear Asoka. We don't always agree, but your ideas are (or seem to be) appreciated by most CFN'ers.

P.S. I like to think of "Q" as being our resident "diddy" here on CFN. You know, sharp-tongued, quick to point out faults, but somehow you know there's a creamy nougat center in that hard, encrusted shell in there somewhere. :)

Now I know that the methane on Titan is not of biotic origin. Great. Thanks for the info.

You're wrong about abiotic oil here on earth. M'k? I don't even feel like telling you why. Google it.

"There, does that make you feel better, sir?"

I wouldn't sweat Qtab's rhetoric. I'm sure he's still living the "high live," playing/gambling that CNBC $$$million$$$ dollaz margin swap game, liek there's no Greece. He's ^up^, after all!!!

~57 daze until the annual world temp stat comes to fruition...

"I don't even feel like telling you why. Google it."

=================

Google does not search the World Wide Web. Google searches the Google database, which contains copies of Web pages Google's spiders have retrieved.

World Wide Web pages (which are often anonymous and undated) are not evaluated for quality as are articles in peer-reviewed journals.

Telling someone to "Google it" is like telling a hungry person to go search through dumpsters. You may find something worthwhile, but most likely you will find garbage.

I prefer sources that are a bit more reliable.

If you don't have an answer, just say so.

No need to be cryptic or evasive.

Asoka,

Is this the same Jerome Corsi who wrote "The Obama Nation" and "Unfit For Command"? In other words, the same author who makes his living attempting to destroy politicians with a D behind their name?

I'm not saying the NASA study should be discounted, but I sure would look elsewhere for a objective interpretation -Corsi has too much political agenda baggage, IMO.

CORRECTION
Google searches the Google database, which contains copies of Web pages Google's spiders have retrieved using a secret, proprietary algorithm using crawlers that do not have access to many academic databases and scholarly journals containing the peer-reviewed literature.

"Google it" is not the best way to find evidence-based research based on scientific methodology that has been vetted for quality.