Change You Don't Have to Believe In


     A waterfall of woe broke over all the realms of money last week - including especially the realm where we determine just what money is supposed to mean - and a lot of folks barely made it to a rooftop, or a floating log, or some scrap of high ground, where they sit wet and shivering, expecting to get slammed again. The torrent of events is still flowing and there are countless dangerous objects bobbing in it. Remember what that in-rushing ocean was like in the Fukushima tsunami? A wall of miso soup strewn with Toyotas and houses instead of squid rings and fish balls. Try swimming in that. (Try swimming in your Cuisinart on the guacamole setting.)
     Europe is telling itself one cockamamie story after another. We've got a rescue fund! Only it has no money! But we will bail out Italy nonetheless! But Italy is too big to bail out - and we tried stuffing it under the carpet, but there's no more room with Greece, Ireland, and Portugal already suffocating in there. The whole G-20 is yakking on the phone as I write, hatching fresh cockamamie stories. Oh, now it looks like the European Central Bank will ride to the rescue with a dispatch satchel full of good intentions. They said the same thing last time, a month or so ago, when a caryatid fell on Greece's head. They are not so sure what money is either. Is a bond like money? Maybe not so much anymore. A stock portfolio? Feh! A Euro? The damned thing is starting to look like a ball-and-chain custom-crafted to weigh down Germans. (And, let's face it: they never did pay any of us for World War Two, really, except what they had to fork over to get the communist side of their own country out of hock. Their guilt-o-meter is still buzzing, I'm sure.) All I know is I hope the whole gang printed up some fresh lira, francs, marks, drachma, pesetas, punts, and whatnot. It would be nice to go back to one of these cute places some day at a discount.
      Did you admire Standard and Poor's sly, Friday night downgrade of the United States Treasury bond rating? I was probably the only one in the whole country besides Anderson Cooper not out eating something bigger than my own head at Applebees, or watching the "Footwear Clearance" show over on the Shopping Network. However, I'm not the only one in America asking where do these S and P punks get off downgrading US bonds when three years ago they wore out their Triple-A rubber stamps on the cartloads of stinking offal that Angelo Mozillo and other mortgage rustlers were pawning off as bond-fodder on every Frankenstein "investment opportunity" pumped out of the Wall Street CDO mills. Government officials were righteously seething over S and P's chutzpah, but I suppose when they tried to ring-up Eric Holder over at the DOJ they got connected to some call center in Uttar Pradesh where a friendly fellow named "Dale" picked up. China's government-run newspaper virtually spanked the US: "Learn (thwack) to live (thwack) within (thwack) your (thwack) means!"
     I'm not convinced that the US bond rating will even matter that much because nobody knows what anything is worth anymore - especially when governments teeter and the folks in the public square (or the parking lot in America's case), start yelling for blood. Merkel, Sarkozy, Berlusconi, Zapatero, will soon be swept away by that selfsame rolling torrent of dreck-strewn woe - in their case a bouillabaisse - while poor Obama looks like one of those hapless, floating creatures in the second-to-last scene of O Brother, Where Art Thou. Even the gold bugs are scared the price will collapse in a debt deflation, or that the federal government will slap a giant extra-special punitive capital gains tax on precious metal sales, or will try to confiscate it from the public altogether like Franklin Roosevelt did - though, given the vast arsenals of private firearms across this land, and the martial spirit lingering in many pissed-off factions of the Tea Party ilk, nothing would invite a revolution, or civil war, or civic upheaval as surely as trying to snatch folks' gold. As a capital preservation refuge, I'm sympathetic to gold, of course, though not so much to buggery.
     Everybody is broke now: national treasuries, giant banks, pension funds, insurance companies. The wonder so far is that credit default swaps have not yet been triggered by interest rate changes or some other silly shit, but when that comes to pass there is no way the counterparties can settle their contracts. Ruin will thunder through the financial system like winged death. Everybody is broke and there's a lot less real "money" (whatever it is) out there. Everybody's quailing at the prospect of QE 3, in all its cosmic futility. The United States has already half killed itself at the Golden Corral steam-table of deep-fried debt. I guess we could go all the way and shoot what remains of the dollar in its pitiful, lolling head.
There is a welling recognition that the dice have been cast and the world has rolled snake eyes. The casino is on fire and a flash flood is boiling down the strip. It's no fun running to the exits only to find the revolving doors already eyeball deep in dirty water. America gibbers to itself but nobody has a clue. I'll try to help: this is a compressive financial and economic contraction (one is money, the other is activity). Late-summer storm that it is, it looks to be intensifying. Everything that's super-big is going down sooner or later. The exact sequence of failures is unpredictable. But you can be sure Nature is telling you to get local, get smaller, get finer, downscale, solidify your friendships, and drop your stupid grandiose fantasies about running WalMart on algae. This is change you don't have to believe in, because it is about to jump up and bite you on the lips.
______________________________

    My books are available at all the usual places.


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711 Comments

The only change we're going to see now is where things steadily change for the worse. Anything else is just a rearguard action so people can try to extract a few more dollars out of the broken machine.

Visit the Leibowitz Society at http://leibowitzsociety.blogspot.com/2011/08/new-tets.html for discussion on our failing civilization as well as taking steps to safeguard our valuable knowledge for the future.

Well put James,

You've partially inspired me, along with the disgust i have for this rampant and destructive capitalism, to start my own blog:

http://subversesjournal.wordpress.com/

hope you enjoy!

This is from a recent Forbes article” The Post-Western World”. I really like this quote; “In the US, the biggest problem is Washington. It is becoming clear that they work for maybe a hundred billionaires and five industry groups and that’s about it.”
http://blogs.forbes.com/kenrapoza/2011/08/06/the-post-western-world/?partner=yahootix
I wonder how long it will be before the average person starts to believe this also and what that awareness will bring?. Not that it really matters now...

It also has this Chomski quote, “The comic opera in Washington this summer, which disgusts the country and bewilders the world, may have no analogue in the annals of parliamentary democracy,” Chomsky writes. “The spectacle is even coming to frighten the sponsors of the charade. Corporate power is now concerned that the extremists they helped put in office may in fact bring down the edifice on which their own wealth and privilege relies, the powerful nanny state that caters to their interests.”

Massive, unregulated, out of control greed is at the base of this of course.

We're just not a productive country anymore. We don't produce enough stuff that matters to us and the world. What we do produce is destructive (war material, cdo's, credit default swaps).

Anyone who believes the USA of the last 31 years can get itself out of this mess is a damn fool. And our entire political establishment (with a couple of exceptions) are damn fools.

Last point; as if it needed to be said. The mostly Southern led Republican Teabaggers are American terrorists. They are sowing the same seeds that led up to the Civil War. They don't want less govt., they want their own country. Look at Rick "praise Jesus" Perry and all you see is a 'federate rebel'.

Finance is just one of big problems in our troubled land.

LMAO @ footwear clearance show .

If you want to see how weird this country has become flip around on cable and watch the Jewelry TV channel. This is a channel devoted to only selling jewelry.
I am not sure why I find this so strange. After all didn't CNN recently become the Casey Anthony Trial channel?

Simple: Just abolish the stuff (money) then let the chaos settle and voila, the world will still go round.

Jack

Jim, lots of blame to go around, but http://goo.gl/SNqPl Tea Party to blame for all of this? Come on!

" Everybody is broke now: national treasuries, giant banks, pension funds, insurance companies. The wonder so far is that credit default swaps have not yet been triggered by interest rate changes or some other silly shit, but when that comes to pass there is no way the counterparties can settle their contracts. Ruin will thunder through the financial system like winged death." -JHK

Thanks, Mr. Kunstler!
Nice encapsulation of the one BIG chunk of pretending yet to be exposed. When it is finally revealed that these "assets" (LOL) are worthless, even the most delusional of money and market managers will have to face the fact that the bags they're holding are not full of solid gold; they're full of liquid poo.

What happens after that will be most "interesting". (We'll have to "peg" "money" to something real [heaven forfend]. Let's see what the Masters of the Universe come up with; then do the exact opposite! ;o)

Ps. Large WTF moment on the credit rating thang. US "debt instruments" have been downgraded to AA+, from AAA. How does one even get to A anything for empty bets against a worthless and collapsed future? The weirdness is inexhaustible!

I knew you'd be almost insufferably gleeful about this past week, which went very much according to what you wrote a week ago, "Now the USA can get on with its systemic collapse honestly and fairly. Even though the debt ceiling extravaganza ended in something like political failure, one point did seem to shine through: there's no more money." And a political failure it was. No one really likes the debt ceiling deal--not the politicians of the Far Right or what passes for the Left, not the markets, not the credit rating agencies, and certainly not the people. The establishment politicians of the GOP probably actually like it, and Obama is pretending to like it, but that's about it. As a means of ensuring stability, it's a complete failure and deserves its nickname of Satan Sandwich.

As for S&P not being in a position to fairly evaluate the U.S. debt after giving all those real estate CDOs AAA ratings, that's something that you, Paul Krugman, and George Will all agree on. That's a cold day in Hell when that happens. Speaking of cold days in Hell, David Frum is realizing that Paul Krugman was more right than his old employers at the Wall Street Journal. Better late than never, even if it is too late.

About the only people who seem to be happy with the failure are the Tea Party people. When they heard that the Democrats were calling this the "Tea Party Downgrade," a group of them in Wisconsin cheered. I guess they like the downgrade because it will speed up the advent of corn pone fascism, which they think they will like because it will put them in charge. HAH!

I blogged about just about all of the above and more, such as the people of Troy, Michigan, saving their local library, at Crazy Eddie's Motie News this past week. I was very busy, posting 16 articles. Blogging about sustainability in Detroit means never running out of material!

http://crazyeddiethemotie.blogspot.com/

I'm glad to see you posting first. At least you have something of substance to say.

So, how long before Aimlow Joe shows up?

WE’RE NUMBER 1!
• #1 in military expenditures. We spend as much as the entire rest of the world combined, with only 2.7% of the world’s population.
• #1 in medical costs. We spend 1.5 times as much per capita as the nearest competitor, but rank #37 in results.
• #1 for percentage of population incarcerated.
• #1 for inequality of wealth distribution in the Western Hemisphere.
• #1 for protecting our elites from taxes. “Even my secretary pays a higher tax rate than I do.” “There’s class warfare, but it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and we’re winning.” Warren Buffet, 2006

However there is one category where we are no longer #1: as of Saturday have become #20. That is our credit worthiness--- the measure of our nations’ willingness to pay our bills. I see no need to add to the millions of words written about the political farce that led to this result, but we should begin to understand the implications of losing our AAA credit status.

In the short run our credit rating downgrade may turn out to be a non-event, but the likelihood is that interest rates on Treasury borrowing will increase the cost of funding the national debt by as much as 100 billion dollars per year. That represents a transfer of wealth to lenders (the Chinese government, international hedge funds, Middle Eastern sovereign wealth funds, Goldman Sachs, etc.) It can only come from increased taxation or reduced spending elsewhere. Of course the American middle class and retired Grandmas everywhere will have no problem paying a few hundred dollars more per year, and I’m sure the 20% who are unemployed will do their part as well. Funny how quickly that “budget savings” our illustrious President and Representatives have been posturing about for months evaporated---.

The medium and longer term implications of the credit downgrade are much more serious. We import 75% of the oil to fuel our transportation system, maintain the world’s most expensive and technologically advanced military, import virtually everything we buy from China or India, and have exported our entire basic manufacturing sector to low wage countries. We have been able to extend and pretend this system into a huge wealth creator for a select few, while keeping the middle class happy because they could use their house as an ATM. This Ponzi scheme had as one of its key elements the fact that the Dollar has been the reserve currency for the world. Having a national currency as the world reserve currency confers tremendous power upon the dominant nation. It can (within limits) control the world money supply and distribution of wealth in its favor, print electronic money to keep the flow of oil and iPads coming, and operate as the king of kings in the world economic system.

As of Saturday, August 06, 2011 the US started down the one way street that will inevitably lead to the Dollar being replaced as the world’s reserve currency. It may take place in six months or at most a few years, but international transactions will no longer be conducted in US Dollars. Importing 590 billion to one trillion dollars worth of oil each year will require earning international currency, not printing electronic dollars. We can drill baby drill until our drill bits are all dull, but we will never be able to coax enough oil from the high Arctic or the played-out wells in Texas to support our car-based infrastructure.

Exactly how do the wizards on Wall Street and their servants in public office plan to run an economy that has little manufacturing capability, an infrastructure built entirely upon the premise of an endless supply of cheap oil, a poorly educated work force, and no ability to dictate the terms of trade to the rest of the world that no longer needs dollars to conduct international commercial activities? Or perhaps they don’t need to worry about such minor details because they already own their villa in the tax free Virgin Islands and have stocked the wine cellar with a lifetime supply of Dom Pérignon?

Government officials were righteously seething over S and P's chutzpah
==

LOL! I can't believe you still believe any of the government mafia theatrics/propaganda.

The S&P downgrade is designed to have people pile into 2yr treasuries, driving yields down, just as they did during QE2. And there you have QE3!

Oh, and Consultant:

The point of our Union was to be able to "have our own country" if that proved to be better for the citizens of a given state. Both New York and Virginia explicitly tied their right to leave the Union as part of their joining it. Of course, in an agreement like the Constitution, a right assumed by one party is available to all. Those who say Texas has no right to secede clearly hasn't read the documents that created our nation.

And that's not even considering the case of those who very credibly say Texas never properly ratified their joining the Union in the first place.

Tea Party (baggers all) are a reaction to the naked greed fostered by neocon Republicans who want to take the country back to (debt) slavery.

And we're there. Except in our new country, white people are slaves too. That's right. Me and you.

That's a pure Monday morning shocker to the knuckle draggers who will come on this site much later in the day (I guess it takes a while to get their diminished brain cells going).


LIVE by the sword, DIE by the sword.

It couldn't happen to a more deserving populace.

There are No rights because there are NO WRONGS.

America, is Doomed.

F*ck America and all it's flag waving Gomers.

This is following the script that Naomi Klein documented in Shock Doctrine - fashion a "crisis" that can be blamed on everyone, then walk in and take over the country/economy. In the past, the banksters did it to third world countries, but now the banksters are doing it to us.

As for the "can/may Texas secede", that issue was settled in Texas v. White, with a wooden stake firmly planted through the heart of the rebs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_v._White

I enjoy the clarity of your thinking. True Wealth? A truckload of split firewood, an acre of sweet juicy cantaloupe ready for market. If you want a good cantaloupe now is the time to eat, not in January. Local is the "new" organic!

It's not as absurd as you might think James. It does need a bit of very deep thinking and contemplation though.

Jack

It should come as no surprise that we do not know what money is. Money is food, and look at how we've been eating all these years! Money is water, and we dirty it, poison it. I wonder what it's like to be really hungry? The closest most Americans get to that is images on TV. Of course, we have our own particular pain, dieting. They say the worst torture is what you perceive as self-inflicted. Dieting, saving. But how can we save when our currency faces debasement?

They say silver is the poor man's gold. I say, dirt is the poor man's silver. Grow your own food, save your own money. Discover them both as if for the first time.

You sound like you're ready to secede. But you won't because you're a fake.

Your New South country would fall apart just like the Old South did.

Y'all don't want to work. Why do think slavery took root there.

You're a bunch of lazy, get something for nothing idiots. You couldn't/wouldn't even work your own damn farms so you set out to debase an entire race of people.

Tea Party, states rights, Ku Klux Klan-all the same sorry thing.

2 minutes to countdown! (Opening market bell.)

Try diamonds Jim, they might have liquidity for you. Not for a Scots-Irish man like me out in Hooterville, but having enough as an insurance policy like a goldbug has small denomination coins could prove handy.

As for simple minded disparagement of the TP, liberalism is dead regardless of what the psychopaths at Kos tell you. You simply are not going to tax the people who propped up Obama to run the ponzi scheme of "benefits." One of Buffet's businesses is a tax avoidance service for rich people who vote "D."

As for taxing the middle class, I'm sure all those $100,000 a year in compensation government workers can do without an extra vacation in the Bahamas, but that cow will dry up quick as well.

It's over.

Just what we need: another bible quoting tejas governor in the white house, with queen Karl in the closet and dead-eye dick in the bunker, with Tom delay and fuckindickarmey in the mimeograph room spinning.

"Did you admire Standard and Poor's sly, Friday night downgrade of the United States Treasury bond rating?" That was the Big News, no?

Jim – The debt crisis is only just begun. And the war for resources is underway. We continue to see this world in one way only, as an object for our manipulation and control. I give you and your readers two posts today, sort of companion pieces, if you will: The Mothers Of Invention and Capitalism and Collapse. Enjoy, the kulturCritic
http://kulturcritic.wordpress.com/posts/mothers-of-invention-further-reflection-on-modern-idols/


Zaax wrote:

I really like this quote; “In the US, the biggest problem is Washington. It is becoming clear that they work for maybe a hundred billionaires and five industry groups and that’s about it.”

Spot on, that. Now we should all go back and read some 80s Cyberpunk novels. Like the rich in those societies (or contemporary Columbia), our rich will soon be hiring armed security forces to protect their enclaves and precious selves from mobs and kidnappers.

Just another stop on a train called "downward."


The two most useful words in any language:

"grow food"

Google it

http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/2011/08/the-economy-isnt-getting-better.html


link to a similar dismal outlook on the Andrew Sullivan blog. (i'm not a conservative_) but i guess he writes for a wider audience anyway

cheers!

i sold my old car and now ride a bike everywhere. but what i really would like is some land to grow food. that will be the gold of tomorrow

"As for the "can/may Texas secede", that issue was settled in Texas v. White, with a wooden stake firmly planted through the heart of the rebs." -T.

Damn; I was hoping they'd take their ball (of bullshit) and go home to their thoroughly poisoned wasteland. Too bad.

Guess that's why Goodhair Perry is making his play to become President of the Cornpone Corp. of 'Murka, bringing his horde of god-fearin', ignorant assholes with him. (Are they needing to desert their native bung-hole land and move to cleaner pastures?)

Jim

Well, you certainly got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning. Your commentary was particularly venomous, why so glum, chum? After all this is what you have been predicting isn't it? Why is anyone surprised, we are just where everyone knew we were going, make no mistake the destination was not a mystery, only the time of arrival. So suck it up baby it's the American way and start looking up your grandma's depression recipes to stretch the increasingly costly food.

Yes, I agree a new form of exchange will be needed, but the devil is in the details as usual. Will we roll over and allow another private central bank to be formed? Or much more sensibly begin a public bank on the model of the Bank of North Dakota, the only state owned bank in the country. Please note the depression has not had a hard impact on North Dakota as of now, wether that will continue remains to be seen, but such a bank appears to be a viable alternative. Yup it is way past time to be moaning about the past, time to get busy planning the future.

I have to admit, the spectacle on display has really been something. But please direct your attention the the news that radiation has been detected in Oklahoma city rainfall at the rate of .19 microsieverts per hour, not good. Also please note the new opinion polls out about public approval of congress has fallen to 17%, a figure so low that it has prompted Patrick Caddell to state publicly that such low ratings are "pre-revolutionary" and call into play the concept of consent of the governed. Did any of you, the governed, approve the fall of 2008 bank bailouts? I think not. Anybody for the Obama bank bailouts? Nope, not hardly. Well those items are some of the more important "news" that hasn't really been seen in the mainstream media. But of course that is to be expected, any real news? Just don't talk about, it will go away. Radioactive fish in Connecticut, no problem. 35% increase in infant mortality on the west coast of North America since Fukushima blew? No big deal, just worry about the good old dollar, right? Okay whatever.

Interesting times are upon us with a vengeance.
loveday

Thor's Hammer violates the one-screen rule but well worth reading. The first few comments this Monday are good. The usual food fight hasn't started yet.


Thanks JKH for the insightful post this week.

Yes, this is what Europe gets for following our insane notions of free trade economy and large trading blocks. The illusion is still being pushed, but the reality is that the king has no clothes and you are right about the old currencies serving their citizenry far better than the Euro. That one size fits all currency should have remained just an economic fantasy!--and thrown into the dustbin of history!

Our financial hegemony is now in real jeopardy and our influence around the world especially Goldman Sachs who set Greece up to lie about their assets to the EU will not hold sway. Now Ireland and the others about to fall should just say no to the IMF!

I posted a link to Charles Hugh Smith yesterday about the total futility of QE3 and the question to keep bailing out Europe on our fumes, destroying our economy even more and losing all credibility in the end.

The other interesting set of stories has to do with selling our public assets to other nation states while insisting to not raise taxes on the wealthy.

You can't run any govt. central or local without revenue, so we are selling our land in various location to China and sovereign wealth funds as well as sections of our highway system as part of the Nasco Corridor (NAFTA Superhighway) our corporate-owned MSM will not discuss.

They also are buying land close to our transportation lines and it should be understood that these are no risk investments, meaning they are guaranteed to make a specific amount of money. If the American people wanted to build public transportation, more trains, for instance, we would have to pay the difference to these foreign investors.
[ China will get property in Toledo adjacent to major transportation lines and the Maumee River with access to the Great Lakes; and with the blessing of the state’s governor they will get a 30,000 acre self-contained city near the Boise airport in Idaho.]

The American people are debating as if it were the 1960's without the context of Keynesian economics with the neoliberal doctrine imposed upon it since the mid-1970's and why it can't work, since they are in diametric opposition. Milton Friedman's greatest flaw is that you can't have a free market with no rules. No regulation means giant monopolies that don't want competition. They can pollute with impunity. They take no responsibility and answer to no one.

The polity doesn't understand what globalism is and how it will undermine the nation state. Lot's of money to be made as the keep selling this country out. Not in the discussion of our deficit is the rampant government expenditure on the security apparatus build after 911.
All the "private contractors" making a killing on tax-payer money at a profit. The only thing they discuss is SS, and Medicare, and public pensions. Everything else is special interest and you know they can't discuss that.

And what is the US doing about China hacking into the military and industrial secrets of this once great superpower?
They want to cooperate!!! Huh? Let's set up some basic rules, they say. I believe there already are and China is breaking international law. But we owe them so much money as they fund our military escapades that we can't afford.

There is an aversion to risk taking in this economic system that breaks all tradition with classical capitalist practice. Thus individuals and corporations now are sitting on $billions and investing everywhere but here, claiming --oh, they just don't know where we are going.. Well if they refuse to employ Americans, it will only go down.

Oh yeah, what's this nonsense about refighting the Civil War? Come on you dinosaurs wake up, we got some real issues to talk about.

Fantastic post James! I too have started writing a blog because of the way you've inspired me to speak up. Thanks James.

ericpearson2012.com

"Fantastic post James! I too have started writing a blog because of the way you've inspired me to speak up. Thanks James."

-----

Oh, Good God! Jim, you ban people left and right. Why not just start with something simple like installing a comment spam filter.

Couldn't agree more that S&P was the wrong messenger to lower our rating, but to kill the messenger ignores the message. As has been discussed by those who feel that deficits don't matter because future growth makes them less important, what happens when we don't get that growth? Limits do matter despite what the Paul Krugmans say, and we have reached that point in our economic history where future growth will be difficult at best.

When it becomes apparent that our debt isn't worth the paper it's printed on, what happens to our rating then?

The last 3 years have felt like a slow motion train wreck. It is hard to imagine what it will feel like 3 years from now.
Aimlow Joe was here
http://www.aimlow.com

Where is Sarah Palin when you need her?

I mean what would Michelle do?

At least FDR eventually went on the radio and spoke a little "power to truth."

Anyone else as annoyed as I am that perhaps with the exception of Rand Paul - no one of any stature or mainstream power/face recognition will go on mainstream media and declare the need for some serious spanking?

Hey Jim - you didn't even burp up anything about the 60 minutes episode.... wow talk about jaded...

Hey talking heads - we don't want welfare, medicare, social security or unemployment or free health insurance.

All the American People want is a level fucking playing field where anyone can be sent to prison and the people who make the most money pay the most taxes.


Is that so much? JK, can you write this up for me and use big words?


Old School: Money is Power.

New School: Power is Money.

#Invest In Solar.

And Dear Mr. Kunstler, I wish you could eloquently spit some of your metaphors and excellent predictions on the television screen. People would watch, listen, and ideally take action from it.

Off to get some Solar Permits now. Hope these dudes don't fuck with me today cause I'm on edge. You should hear my War Scream. My voice is AWESOME LOUD!

Cheers ClusterFuckers.

PUSH ON. DO GOOD. KEEP SMILING.


JHK, excellent column this week.

Always keep learning something new.... if nothing else, I now know what a 'caryatid' is. Thanks.

Good "bullet points", LB. Thanks

When the howling wilderness of purposefully diversionary mud-slinging begins, I'll just roll back up to the very top (starting with JHK's offering) and start over with things worth pondering.

And, just to get a better sense of our scale in the scheme of things, I found this, for our collective loss of awe:

http://vimeo.com/22439234


Panic abounds, right wingers retreat to their fundamentalist constitutional utopia while left wingers retreat to Socialism and other forms of governance that lead to nothing but poverty and oppression.

Thor- You are right on about the implications for reserve currency and or coming need to earn our way in the world. Aside from those 70+ years in age, virtually every American has been born into a world of unrivaled American dominance. It is simply beyond comprehension for most, that iPads,hummers and flat-screens are not a God given right.
As a country, we have become fat, complacent and irrelevant... We are no longer the America of the past; self reliant, adventurous, determined.
We used to hunger for greatness, but we have sat at the table long past the point of being sated...
And now even if the collective decided to work towards righting the ship, we no longer have the ability to do so, Our infrastructure is crumbling, out factories are either outsourced or obsolete, our workforce uneducated.
What do we have to offer the world? overweight retail clerks? Semi-skilled labor that thinks they should earn more in a hour than a south American or Chinese worker earns in 6 months? I guess we are still the go to people for state of the art weaponry, and at the rate things are going around the globe that could prove to be a lucrative (but short lived) market...

"The world's coming to an end, I don't even care, as long as I can have my limo and my orange hair."

Cheech and Chong

James, this past week proved you to be correct more often, and in more ways, than many other weeks in recent memory. You were right at those times also, but it was less apparent. Swell. Wonderful. This is just... GREAT! Oh, how happy I am (not).

Richard Quest tried to lay it all on the line for Christine Romans last night. It was fantastic to see. If I can find it I'll come back and post it.

Keep on keepin' it real.

"Oh yeah, what's this nonsense about refighting the Civil War? Come on you dinosaurs wake up, we got some real issues to talk about."

It ended? To a Virginian like me, I have to keep looking around to remind myself. Oh, yeah, that War is good for tourism!

If only we'd gone with the winning side, and let the ignoramuses south of us get whipped good in about six months. When one of these South Carolinians or Texans starts waving the Rebel flag, I remind them the Virginia gave them the generals that almost won at Antietam. Okay, I left out John Bell Hood, and he was an ass-whupper. I wish Texas could leave the Union now....but that's another story.

Actually, Loveday, some Civil War history might be most useful about now. The country is fracturing on the same old dumbass lines, with the Mid-West and parts of the Mountain States going on the dumbass / Jesus Joker (love the term, JHK!) side of the divide.

Even though JHK is a damned Yankee, he has the South of today down just about right.

insufferable says;
I was pointing out that compared to socialism and communism, fascism or dictatorship, capitalism was the way for people to try to make their way out of poverty because it afforded them the possibility to make money.
----------------------
Socialism and capitalism are usually practiced as a matter of degree, you may be better off with a small business in a largely capitalist economy while having a socialist medical system. Discussion which characterize them as being a choice between one or the other are confusing "communism" with "socialism", a bit like confusing "fascism" and "capitalism".

start your own blog, por favor

Qshtik says;
Let's call a spade a spade. Cuba is a shit-hole because of an unnatural and brutal restraint of human nature, i.e. Capitalism.
---------------------------------------
To the extent that Cuba is a "shit-hole", is caused by a lot of things, not the least of which is being boycotted by it close neighbor and largest economic power in the world for 60 years, the U.S.

You really are kind of clueless on economics and political structure; socialism can exist in a democratic society, and often does; communist on the other hand, is a form of totalitarian rule, which uses socialism as it's underlying economic system. If a totalitarian system uses capitalism as it's underlying economic system, then it is fascism. So, using your thought process, capitalism is just a degree of fascism, not worth distinguishing.

You really should consider taking history and economics from someone other than Glenn Beck.

Another excellent summation of the collapsing world economy by JHK. The world is broke. Even China, holding most of our notes, is so far into our debt problem, that it has become their problem too. Here is my radical suggestion – what about a two year, world-wide interest moratorium. Yes, that’s right, two years for every country to pay down the debt interest free. Okay, it will never happen but if it did, Europe and the US might have a chance to get back on their feet. China would benefit from this too because if our purchasing power is gone, their economy tanks too. Welcome to the Domino Effect.

Now Somalia is experiencing another famine due to extreme drought. Maybe if Somalia spent less time practicing piracy and more time building infrastructure, their children wouldn’t be starving. Drought seems to be spreading everywhere. Despite Rick Perry’s massive prayer rally, God continues to ignore him and the drought grows even worse in Texas. Perhaps God doesn’t really care for Perry’s version of piety after all. Maybe God thinks Perry’s a big phony. Who knows? Perhaps Gov. Perry will convince Texas to secede and then Texas will be no more of a problem to most of us than Somalia. Let them pull themselves up by their own bootstraps, etc.

And let’s all also ignore S&P, another big phony. These guys and Moody’s were instrumental in the 2008 financial collapse, falsely rating inferior investments much higher than they deserved. Ordinary people made the mistake of trusting them. Despite the Dow Jones recently falling, people are still investing in US Treasuries. Apparently, their faith in Uncle Sam is still solid, no matter the Tea Party claims. Globalization, droughts and downgrades sometimes seem overwhelming. But things could be worse. Michelle Bachmann could be Rick Perry’s vice president and beam at us with her crazy, batshit eyes.

Mornin O3, most excellent video link. Now it is comfirmed. I am truly a mote :o) ! I checked out the Monterey General Store on line. 375K. It looks like it has potential. Do you know if there are living arrangments on the second floor? I especially like the water-way out back and the metal roof.
http://www.berkshirepropertyagents.com/for-sale/commercial/ma/monterey/075c/

more money than brains, no doubt

D.F.2,
If you can find a video of that, I'd be most interested in viewing it. (I couldn't find it, and I always want to know how far the envelope can be stretched by an official propaganda organ.)
Thanks in advance.

I do believe you are correct. I'll be more circumspect in future. (Not that a deletion of my comments would really harm the discourse. ;o)
Thanks; see yez in the funny papers!

hey, this is interesting. Turbines secured to the bottom of rivers. Anybody have any thoughts on this?

http://www.boston.com/business/technology/articles/2011/08/08/free_flow_power_tests_underwater_turbine/?p1=Upbox_links

Praise the Lord and pass the biscuits, Rick Perry, and the South shall have risen again and swept away all things Obama.

So I just finished reading The Witches of Hebron. I was sickened by the pages discussing the seduction of an 11 year old boy by a 13 year old girl. I wonder if this classifies as child pornography?

Steve, just to let you know, that's suppose to be a joke. Okay?

The Chinese aren't broke. However, they have lent trillions to broke Western nations that can't pay them back. I wonder how they will react when they are offered 10 cents on the dollar for their mountain of T-bills ?

I don't see how fast food jobs are something to get that excited about.


Well if you feel more division in the country is productive, by all means indulge. But you should consider the idea that TPTB want as much division as possible among the populace, just makes it easier to run things. The old divide and conquer routine.

Better to focus on the real culprits that worked very hard and surprisingly openly to bring down the great American working and middle classes. You see when Bush said, roughly, Our enemies are working hard everyday to harm our country and we do too. He meant it, as can be observed in the outcome of his policies. Obama has merely continued those disastrous policies with a pretty smile plastered on the pig. And don't forget snarlin' Dick's- debt doesn't matter routine. Pretty rich when you consider the rethugs are screaming bloody murder about debt now.

So yes, I agree the country is splintering and breaking apart on every level. But buying into that division isn't going to help solve any problems. Looking clearly at the problems and identifying feasible local solutions is probably the best we can do. Because despite Jim's insistence that we face a dark age, people still gotta eat.

Take care in these interesting times cause it's only gonna get more interesting. Yeeha!

According to The WS Journal Fidel socked 10 million or so away in a Swiss bank.
Might this off-shoring have contributed to Cuba's malaise?
Cuba is where it is due to Communism.Dont blame the USA.


> Texas, created more jobs last year than all other 49 states (56 if you are Obama) combined.

I think you are wrong about that "combined" part, I remember seeing that Texas had created more jobs than any other state, but that was kinda misleading because of 1) increased deficit by the state government and 2) unemployment was worse (and is still worse) there than compared to a lot of other states.

Howdy-hey, RT!
Yes, motes we be, I'm afraid. Maybe that's a good thing; we can't escape from here to screw up any other planets! ;o)

375k for the store, eh? I think the owners also own property[s] in Florida? Hoping to "make a killing" on the clueless Yankees, I think.

If 'twere me looking to buy the place, I'd beat them up unmercifully on the price (as any Yankee worth his salt would do).

Steve, that's funny stuff.

No because there is no 'Victim'.
Pat Buchanan mentioned similar in a play by
Sandra Bernhard. ['o how cool seduce a 13 year old']

PERCENTAGE... What PERCENTAGE of this piece of shit "Texas Miracle" you dumfux keep howling about are RESTAURANT JOBS!?!

It's one thing to say "high tech, venture capital, aeronautics, health care and even industrial manufacturing" but it's another thing entirely if those kind only account for like TEN PERCENT of the total job growth, which makes it look just as pathetic of the other states.

Reagan taught you guys statistics well, didn't he? If it's a job, then it's a job. Doesn't matter that it's part time at Carl's Jr. Just as long as it looks good for statistics.

Very cool!
Here's an oldie but a goodie, derived from the same power source:
Look up lowtech magazine and look for "boat mills".

I firmly believe that the U.S. should transition, with all deliberate speed, to an economy based on cupcakes and insurance - the only things we truly do well (at least the cupcakes).


I know my garden hoe is worth a lot!

Snatching 401k digits is much easier to grab up than any asset one has in hand (bullets might become more valuable than Gold soon?). Governments around the world don't have time between the sunbaths, chance meetings with hotel maids, and lunches, with beer, to do the hard work of actually doing the door to door scene...

However, it is interesting to note, Gold is money, and as such, is wanted now more than ever as a stable medium of exchange.

Gold is more liquid than fiat is right now. Ha!

Just what I thought...

Unable to back up what the fuck you're talking about.

Next time you choose to fuck with me, boy, it'd be nice to bring some fucking facts with ya!

In a world where marketing is more important than the value of the product, where people buy the box without looking at the content, the money instead of being the media to exchange products and services, has become the product and the service.
In Wall Street they do not exchange stocks and bonds by their value, they exchange ratings and opinions.
This could still be worth if ratings and opinions reflected reality, if they explained the value, if they were honest and true, if they didn´t change at the will of the ones who speculate.
What kind of a world is this where who works and works hard, earns much less than the one who bids?
When there will be no bakers, no farmers, no carpenters, where will the gurus of Wall Street find their food? Or who will fix their homes or their roofs or their planes or their cars?
The revolution should begin from this: no work, no bread.
Eat your stocks and your credit default swaps, or your derivatives.
I eat MY bread and it tastes much better than yours.
What do you do with a gold bullion?
Much less than with a potato.
Bread, potatoes, nails and saws, these are reality.
Welcome a world made by hands, I will be among the rich, because I KNOW how to grow potatoes and how to knit a sweater.
The future that is in front of us, is MUCH, MUCH better than the world we lived in till now.

Now, haven't you got a hot date at your family reunion to go to?

Well I for one am past the blame game going on as to who's fault this clusterphuck is...

The real issue now is how will the US continue to "grow" with our credit rating lowered and possibly in risk of being lowered yet again?

Anyone see how this is going to play out in the dwindling resource game?

I'll tell you how - since this land of the cowardly and insignificant has been downing oil like a redneck on moonshine for the past 60 years or more....oil is/was our means of growth. But now wherefore will we be able to get as much of the stuff - since all oil is sold at world market prices...even the stuff we draw fro our own ground? How will we be able to borrow as much to keep those tankers pulling in to feed our endless appetite?

I sure as hell hope you all have good insulation and a stocked pantry.

Winter's coming and it's lookin like a cold one....

Sounds like you're running out of creative come-backs. Better stop while you're 20 miles behind.

Go find some longhorn shit to sniff, Texas boy.

After all the folks breathing a sigh of relief here
that Fabian was banned, look whos here monday morning.
Those who are new to this blog....one poster
has been banned like 20? 50? times..
assass, zzzzz, not yr mommy, 2true,fabian

Was really looking forward to JHK's rant this morning, what with the latest crisis of the bond rating reduction. That happened to Ontario in the early 90s when S&P got all upset about our alleged socialist provincial government that commited the sin of trying to prop things up with spending during that recession instead of slashing everything the way the Right wanted.

Bottom line: we survived, although the alleged socialist government of the New Democratic Party didn't, and was followed by the right wing slashers, from whom we are still trying to recover nearly twenty years later.

My advice as a Canadian: get over yourselves. This mild slap on the wrist is the least of your worries at the moment, and is far from being the worst news you will hear about your economy and standing in the world.

Time to grow up, America.

JHK: Please, please find a way to get the trolls off your site. They are destroying any chance of real discussion. It's only noon and they are already taking over. I know that your job shouldn't include policing the comments but hell, somebody has to do it.

Trolls: Go somewhere else to play, the grown ups are quite sick of you here.

"And, let's face it: they never did pay any of us for World War Two, really, except what they had to fork over to get the communist side of their own country out of hock. Their guilt-o-meter is still buzzing, I'm sure."

Dear Mr. Kunstler,
I am new to this bog.
What was a real shock to me was your comment about Germany and what the, in your opinion never paid to you (whoever that might be).
As one born into the after war period I have to tell you that your knowledge about this matter is close to null.
Germany paid more than 60 years to all those who call themselves the victors and also to a country called Israel to ALL Jewish.
It looks like it got lost before reaching the single people who might have deserved a kind of compensation - if money ever could repay what those people went through.
You also seem not to know that there is another country called Switzerland whose only part in that war was to collect dirty war money.
To whom went these around 20 billion Swiss Franks they paid to somebody over there in New York ?
I could tell you to whom.
With this amount they didn't even pay back the
interest of the amount they enjoyed for so many years. Not one penny of this money arrived at the single person mentioned above. And not to forget that they didn't pay on their own will, but were forced to do so.....
What did the victors pay back for the damages they did three days before the war was officially over ?????
Probably you never have been to Dresden, Berlin and other cities covered by their bombardment.
These actions were totally unjustified and totally USELESS !
I have been there and saw the mess they managed to do.
Therefore, my guilt-o-meter is NOT buzzing at all.

Somebody thinks that "texas" created jobs.

Some other people are using words that end is "ism."

Geez, nobody, apparently knows what they are talking about.

This is I why write childishly. It takes pages and pages of specifics to have any meaningful dialog.

For instance, how the hell do we as a people of a democracy create any influence to turn this ship around?

Does it matter if I write a Blog or a letter? Hold up a big sign?

I really figure the PTB really are winging it. Just taking in whatever comes their way with no regard for the future. Knowing this, is there really anyway to prepare?

Does anyone even want to discuss whether the country will ever have another "new deal" ???

I mean, just where the fuck is this thing going?

JHK urges going local. Uh,....does anyone but me see that for much of the world that won't work either (Samalia, Haiti and countless other areas). It's too damn late there and is fastly growing ever more the case here if we practice the advice of those who can't come to terms with the reality that we -- here in the US of A -- are already overpopulated too, just not to the same extent. The dumb ass dreamers believe our nation can go on absorbing global overpopulation. Yeah, sure; we'll all squeese life down to a paste of tastless calories delivered in a toothpaste tube. Hell, forget about wilderness experience, species diversity, wildlife habitat, open space. Anyone for living in a refugee feeding station?

Wow didn't take long for things to get ugly around here. Really folks the TPTB just don't have to do all that much to maintain their power, no unity in the population means they win by default( sorry couldn't resist the pun).

Get a grip all you swearers, smearers and playground bullies! Real life is in progress!

Hey Ellebeme,
Good to see your posts every so often. You are so right about that. China is investing and buying quite a chunk of our oil/nat gas too right here on our land. on Oct. 15 2010, I wrote:

[Well, guess who's coming to Texas

Yes this is the other side of globalism. With the outsourcing of our jobs we have made China so deliriously liquid that they are snapping up energy assets everywhere including here. This is the flip side of globalism with China now investing in Texas oil and gas assets....

....State Owned CNOOC, China's energy giant is buying a $multibillion stake in 6000,000 acres of South Texas with ambitions to further expansion here in the US. The full investments will come to around 22 billion for the Chinese to learn how to some of their own hard to get gas deposits. Analysts think there will be less resistance to these investments as China can provide the money for for more development to cash-strapped American companies.

"China has increasingly been looking to the Americas for raw materials it needs to sustain the boom. As private investment dwindled with the global financial crisis, the cash-flush Chinese went on a regional shopping spree."]

Drill baby, drill--Not gonna help us.

I enjoy watching right wing nuts get their ass kicked on public forums! :D


LOL, so you lost more jobs than all other states combined, and gained some of them back, with massive increases in deficit spending... Didn't we try that already?

How many jobs were created in the state government? According to the Texas Workforce Commission, Texas had 334,100 state government jobs in 2001, the year Perry took office, and 369,800 in 2010 — an increase of 35,700 jobs, or 10.7 percent, on Perry's watch.

Cheryl Abbot, an economist at the Bureau of Labor Statistics in Dallas, confirmed that Perry is correct in saying that Texas added more jobs than all the other states combined. "Texas was one of the very few who even added jobs over that time," she said.

That's not to say that Texas hasn't lost jobs. At its peak, Texas had about 10.64 million jobs in August 2008. About a year later, when the recession was in full swing, only 10.21 million jobs were on the payroll — about 430,000 less. Since, Texas has added about 180,000 jobs. That's about 250,000 fewer than its best.

lbendet - always enjoy your posts as well. Tho sometimes when I check in here - the page is a mile long and I don't bother responding for it is lost in the shuffle.

However, no matter who is drilling here for gas/oil, the dream of unlimited growth is over. S&P isn't the ONLY credit agency who downgraded us....and now Fannie & Freddie are losing credibility too.

The US is entering into its Brave New World phase and nobody has been paid enough to stop it. More $$$$ in selling it off. Kinda like a totalled car....

But as long as people keep watching thier TVs being reassure the panic is only temporary, and people are kept out of work or being forced to work for mere sustinence not much will happen until nearly everyone finds themselves smelling the formerly rose-scented shit sandwich we have been forced to eat - is actually a shit sandwich and smells accordingly so.

I think back on the fall of the USSR often these days. How the west proclaimed TRIUMPF over the evil red empire.... That "capitalism" was the god-sent savior we believed it to be. But no sooner did the wall fall and people hugged through its concrete skeleton....the wolves circled and took the "victory" as a red-light for an orgy of conquest and consumption. Did we really win, or was their capitualtion the green light to the end of it all?

Don't know. Still thinking....but am certain that once the "enemy" was gone, there was no one else to feast upon but our own selves....

Ahh, the WSJ. Now there's an unbiased source of Rupert-based reportage.

Go scarf back some more biscuits from Pappy O'Perry, washed down with some Purple Jesus juice...

JHK,
This site is my Monday morning ADDICTION.
I've read most of the comments & links.

NOW I KNOW EVERYTHING. ROFLMAO!!

Prog,

I am not exactly certain how many times you have asked JHK to ban certain posters and implored others not to respond to "The Trolls" but I know that it has been multiple times. In fact, your appeals are the equivalent of suturing chocolate cake onto the consciousness of the person on a diet. It's that old "do not sin" mentality which has the paradoxical result of empowering that which it seeks to diminish.

And some folks just might enjoy Fabian's gig. Q has stated as much and why shouldn't he after cleaning his clock the last couple of weeks. " Let It Be" to echo St.Paul

Maybe Buck, maybe.
But if this Monday goes like last Monday -

I'm about done with this place.

but what i really would like is some land to grow food. that will be the gold of tomorrow
================

Al, I understand the whole grow-your-own rationale and I've been following with great interest Trippticket's permaculture saga, but let's get real about where a lot of (most?) people live such as my daughter and her husband who live in a big apartment building in the heart of Manhattan.

Don't know if you happened to see an article in yesterday's NY Times (Metropolitan section, first page). The title reads "Pilfered Peppers In City Gardens; Tomatoes, Too."

The first paragraph says "At the 700 community gardens sprinkled through the city like little Edens, the first commandment should be obvious: Thou shalt not covet, much less steal, thy neighbors tomatoes, cucumbers or peppers. But people do."

Accompanying the article is a picture of a note posted at the plot of a victimized gardener. It reads:

Dear plant thief, If I catch you stealing my plants I will boil you alive in a cauldron filled with poison ivy and stinging nettles until your flesh falls off your bones!

Don't forget about Peak Oil in all the excitement over Peak Debt. The worst is yet to come. Just around the corner and down the road a little way...

Popcine said, "They say silver is the poor man's gold. I say, dirt is the poor man's silver. Grow your own food, save your own money. Discover them both as if for the first time."

Alanalda: "i sold my old car and now ride a bike everywhere. but what i really would like is some land to grow food. that will be the gold of tomorrow"

Westcoast: "The two most useful words in any language: "grow food"

Rebuttal by consultant: "You couldn't/wouldn't even work your own damn farms so you set out to debase an entire race of people. "

And on and on, etc.

Look, there isn't land enough to go around. Anyone clapping their hands about going back to subsistence agriculture is a complete moron. Townships own land, you "rent" it by making cash payments to the landlord. Most people don't have the skills, talents, physical, intellectual or emotional ability to grow their own food, let alone grow a surplus, which they believe will be money in the bank.

People are so friggin' stupid: first, they think that growing food is a real solution, not realizing they require acres and acres of land and hundreds of barrel-equivalents in energy to get a sustainable crop. They think they have a solution by replacing the trip to the grocery store with a second fulltime job.

They'll come back posting responses that denigrate and ignore my criticisms. Farming gardening is just a new religion for people who have a newfound need to "Get religion" caused by the implosion of their retirement assets or job situation.

Only an idiot without any experience with either believes in such bullshit. I see the results everywhere I go in my little town: yards turned upside down, half-ass projects that rot all winter. These people drive to the big box store, buy cow dung, and toss it in a few holes, burn the shit out of their tomato plants, and give up within 3 weeks.

Consultant, I think you, JHK and I are all on the same page. I have voted Republican, I voted Kerry against Bush, but now realize that it's them against us. The differences between the donkey and elephant (lack of caps intended) have shrunk to the size of the head of a pin.

Give me another choice. The Tea Party simply demands that, and as such, I must agree with them.

"Al, I understand the whole grow-your-own rationale and I've been following with great interest Trippticket's permaculture saga, but let's get real about where a lot of (most?) people live such as my daughter and her husband who live in a big apartment building in the heart of Manhattan." -Q.

Well then, unless they can "buy their way out" [or provide an absolutely necessary skill], they're pretty much skrew't, ain't they?
Time grows short...

CeeCee said, "Now Somalia is experiencing another famine due to extreme drought. Maybe if Somalia spent less time practicing piracy and more time building infrastructure, their children wouldn’t be starving. "

Thats an oversimplification. Because Somalia did not have an existing government, high-capacity, high-tech fishing fleets from the EU sailed with impunity into Somalian waters. Unlike the traditional small vessels, and the fishermen who were providing Somalia with high-quality protein in a sustainable fashion, these newcomers FROM THE E.U., fished the entire area out.

A) Located shoals of fish using sonar and digital technology
B) deployed giant log booms and driftnets many times larger than modern skyscrapers
C) Destroyed the ocean surface and all its creatures by dragging the log boom across them
D) Captured all the marketable fish and tossed everything else in the nets over the side, dead
E) Exported all the fish to the E.U.

What was left for Somalia? NOTHING. The collapse of the fishstocks impoverished many fishermen, some of whom simply turned to "piracy" which is a quaint terminology considering they are Somalis, and Somalia's fisheries. By stopping foreign vessels plying their waters and extracting tribute with AK-47s, they are merely doing what western governments (and their people) do. Piracy or taxes, I suppose it all depends on who is telling the story to who.

Who are the real pirates? I say it is the E.U. The real booty was a fishery worth billions. And now here you are, telling the victims it is their fault. Good job.

Da Furry said, "hey, this is interesting. Turbines secured to the bottom of rivers. Anybody have any thoughts on this?"

Yeah... um, why don't people just stop using so much FUCKING ENERGY?

I can't think of a worse way to ruin the fucking environment than drop a piece of equipment into a fucking river so that an aggregate of people can run their A/C and play Medal of Honor 2.

By harnessing rivers like the Mississippi and updating existing hydroelectric dams and other facilities, the association estimates the country could generate an additional 60 gigawatts of power by 2025. (A gigawatt powers around 1 million homes.)

But what will Americans do with 60 gigawatts? I'll tell you: they'll make more blended margaritas, run the vacuum cleaners and big-screen TVs and heat and cool their inefficient McMansions. Businesses will run their fluorescent lights all night and day. Watch porn in their underwear. Run the electric can opener?

Energy generated is energy WASTED.

I will whisper the following so that I don't meet the same fate as Eugene Victor Debbs and find myself in Federal Prison.

But why don't more ask why we have a military which spends more than the entire world combined? Who are what are they protecting us from or who are they protecting?
Bring them home now.

Why must it be that when I go to a bar and order a beer, they serve it in a bottle made of plastic (oil)? What was wrong with the ones we had 20 years ago which were made of glass and were refilled by an American Worker and reused?
I'll tell you.
It is because someone in a suit and Italian loafers realized there was more profit to be made by making the bottle out of plastic, eliminating the Bottle Washer's Job and having a Mafia Garbage Company bury the plastic in landfill, even if that means the public has to buy a new aircraft carrier and some more billion dollar airplanes to keep the plastic coming.

The beer bottle can serve as a metaphor for our lives and our civilization. The bottle cannot be returned for deposit and the people are equally expendable. Both are reduced to an entry on some corporate balance sheet.

So what is money? I think it used to be those glass bottles that a kid could collect for the 5 cent deposit that bought his ticket to a movie. That is before Disney Inc. stopped taking this legal tender.

Zaax,

It's unfortunate that the blogger at Forbes, Ken Rapoza, does not have an inkling about peak oil/everything. His description of the future for developing nations represents fantasy. Always nice to hear from Chomsky, though....

Nope, no, no way. Living up to my name sake I say that overpopulation has led us to this mess and talking about anything else is just mental masturbation.

Bendit said, "China has increasingly been looking to the Americas for raw materials it needs to sustain the boom. As private investment dwindled with the global financial crisis, the cash-flush Chinese went on a regional shopping spree."

I was a child, stupefied and Amazed at my country (US) in 1989 when the Chinese government slaughtered the protesters in Tienanmen Square. Stupefied by our lack of response. Today, I am so much wiser. This morning I was remarking how similar the extinction of the Beiji river Dolphin due to the development of the Yangtze and the immanent extinction of the Vaquita river porpoise due to development of the Colorado river. By 1989 the USA was already heading full-tilt toward clusterfuck- a GOP-led government running itself into the ground, the "unreasonable" party in charge of the bloc dominated by Religious nuts and Messiah-complexed apocalypticons, corporate androids and a solid blue-collar Moron-o-sphere rounding out the playing field.

The USA developed first- which is to say- we fucking set the bar: destroy everything, capitalize everything, be a bigger douchebag, "kill em all and let god sort them out" socio-politcal agendas. Now the USA slides into Banana Republic and guess what? We will get the WTO treatment: rape our natural resources, force "austerity" down our throats, and dissolve sovereignty.

There is no game in town but their game... RATM says:

No escape from the mass mind rape Play it again jack and then rewind the tape And then play it again and again and again Until your mind is locked in Believing all the lies that they're telling you Buying all the products that they're selling you They say jump and you say how high You're brain-dead You've gotta fucking bullet in your head

In my metal shop, a large sign says:

HEARING LOSS IS CUMULATIVE

So is clusterfuck. It accumulates. The little bites we can't feel until the fever is upon us. It is the Vaquita downing in Las Vegas Sewage, the disappearance of national wealth bit by bit, the slow and steady demoralization of the citizenry....

Last Friday night, Mr. Kunstler?

Speak for yourself re Applebees (I have not been inside one in at least 5 yrs.) or shopping network (I don't have cable).

I was outside weeding and cultivating my garden and picking some produce for me and family to eat. So, yeah, I guess that does mean a few dimes less profit for some peoples' frieinds, relatives etc. in the grocery bizz. A few pennies less for the chemical ag-bizz farmers and their illegaly in the USA workforces. Well, boo-hoo.

I like your columns, Mr. Kunstler, but I think you are refusing to understand the folks in this country, more and more every day, who have turned our backs on consumerism, who do relearn and pracice some of the skills of self-reliance are those same white-sox wearing, too too boring and annoying squares whom a cool guy like you can't even stand having in the same room with your interesting self.

Learn to live within our means. Love too. Hows about we start by sending back to China everything not made to reasonable, sensible specifications, like, oh, it should last a year AFTER you take it out of the package, and if it is a food or personal care item, it shouldn't poison you. Not to mention, if it is food, it should not be any ag product we can't grow here ourselves.

Excellent summary, Thank You.
It sure does depend on who's telling it.

I agree with you, the real pirates are the E.U.

Blame the victim happens all the time. It can be very subtle, but it goes on All The Time.

Dr. Holiday Inn said, "The beer bottle can serve as a metaphor for our lives and our civilization. The bottle cannot be returned for deposit and the people are equally expendable. Both are reduced to an entry on some corporate balance sheet.

I ride past hundreds of homes, every day. On trash days, certain times during the week, these homes disgorge the remainders of their habits- their trash. WE have a recycling system, modest little plastic buckets for glass. I frequently am amazed by the sheer tonnage of beer drunk in this country. At some point you have to ask why a household that consumes this much beer should buy it in individual bottles, only to shove a small mountain of glass out toward the street? Why aren't these people investing in a actual keg, and subscribing to some sort of Beer-delivery service?

I am convinced one of America's main problems is alcoholism, just judging by the spectacle on America's garbage collection days. Americans can get through anything as long as they are enjoying "the High Life".

"So what is money? I think it used to be those glass bottles that a kid could collect for the 5 cent deposit that bought his ticket to a movie."

Movies are $10 a pop! And they make you watch commercials! And then all the movies are re-hashes and remakes! Kids don't work these days. Their parents deliver the newspapers. Next: Adults with lemonade stands.

Jackie said, "I agree with you, the real pirates are the E.U."

Well, in this case. The fact is, beyond 200 nautical miles, the Earth's oceans are a free-rape zone where anyone anywhere can vacuum all the life out, dump toxic waste, and be sure no one will see them do it. The real pirates are all the high-tech fishing fleets. If they are the pirates, and fish is the booty, what the fuck are we, buying the shit shrink-wrapped in the grocery? We're some kind of fucked up victim, a snake eating its own tail,

God, I was hoping Vlad would be posting today so I could take my wrath out on him. Or Old69- maybe he got his feeding tube wrapped around his neck last night.

2tru said, "You mean like you, who used energy to post the above? Oh, OK. (Genius)"

Go look up cheap shot, fucktard. I am a luddite with a library card compared to the "Avergae American"- or even the "sub-normal" american.

Ellebeme,
Good points. WHen the USSR fell, they said it was the "End of history", what they meant was that we no longer had to be a showcase to the world how good capitalism is; Let the feeding ffrenzy commence.

old69 just copies and pastes stuff from another blog, a real crappy one.

I think it might have gotten banned, too (a good thing).

Looks like it's time to Go Shopping ! (again)


So,
Da FUSA Freeeee Murkit is sliding like Mt. St. Helens on a hot magma sled.

After our Wall St. President came on to instill hope and courage in the investors hearts, it did take a short uptick... about 10 minutes worth, then began plunging again. I s'pose that coincided with the Fed/Treasury buying up a shitload of stocks and bonds to prop up the sand castle. The usual Friday night rigging didn't work this time, did it boys? (In case you didn't notice, IT'S MONDAY!) Can't bullshit the bullshitters, and a panic feeds on itself.

Oh yeah, just heard the President's speech (if that's what it was?). Sure, accordingly, due to American exceptionalism we don't need any margin to take up the shock of disasters of all sorts, we can go on populating to the very edge of minimum caloric requirement. No problem, its only in those other parts of the world where overpopulation has consequence. Duh!!!!!

I had this feeling 20 years ago. A sense that This Slide was happening then. I said to a friend, we are becoming more like a third world country, they've gotten all they can, and are moving onto new frontiers, to rape them.

Seems to be exactly what is happening.

While Jim talks about American's watching out for shoes sales on TV, Brits go out and loot footlocker. Maybe they're speeding up the localisation agenda?

As we speak I seem to be surrounded by riots here in South London. They burned down Allied Carpets in Tottenham which, lets face it, isn't like burning down the library of Alexandria. Unloved areas like Wood Green, Enfield, Brixton (of course Brixton!), and Hackney are venting a lot of anger and the worst of the austerity measures supposedly hasn't even hit us yet.

Gosh, I wonder what comes next?

Scylla200

got it, thanks !

We are definitely being manipulated by the T.V. reports most of the time.

Just have to figure out who how why what & where.

'Movies are $10 a pop! And they make you watch commercials! ... parents deliver the newspapers. Next: Adults with lemonade stands.'

I know someone who awhile back was at IBM.
Y day I saw him working on the street as a sign flipper.

Time for the global banker to do asset stripping on America and Europe. They will own all roads, ports, trains, water systems, etc. for a few pennies on the dollars. This is the same play book they used in Argentina in 2001.

What type of blog would you prefer, Prog? It seems to me academic civility is a hypocritical request, given all the derision heaped upon academia by so many on this blog including JHK himself. A blog of autodidactics debating in autonomous and polite insularity, perhaps? Ha, without the dirt, sweat, sweat, and grime accumulated in the “real world” ? I say keep it real in allowing the mindset that actually resides out there in Clusterfuck Nation to voice itself, whatever that might be. And if some feel too soiled as a result, well, there are plenty of dry academic listservs on the internet catering to the sanctimonious and timid. Besides that, banning people results in a lot of collateral damage which takes out other interesting voices - where is Asoka and Vlad of late?

But there’s always leading by example, Prog, or as you might be inclined like to say, elevating one mind at a time.

I Do agree. Our lifestyles of living beyond our means is insane.

Just that I fear the ones that cannot scale down, and the violence that might ensue.
There is more road rage in cars now, and just getting more and more so. People are fed up and taking it out on one another.

I don't have a garden tho, so I don't have to worry about guarding it. We rent an apartment.
And instead of growing in the area where we could, there is grass, and not da kine !
A complete waste. I actually don't smoke it, I get paranoid. But know from when younger, that for certain kinds of pain, it does work.

I am actually growing sunflower sprouts in a jar on the counter. and have a small space for a garden, gardening can be done indoors, just takes creativity and planning. I'm on it.

My neigbors are from Brazil, I've been talking with them. They go down there often.

Everyone isn't be broke right now.

Money is simply an accounting unit measuring humanity's capacity to feed itself, clothe itself, enlighten itself, and otherwise pursue its interests.

This capacity depends only on three things:

1. Energy and other natural resources
2. Human ability and motivation to make an effort
3. Tools, which when combined with effort (2) transform the resources (1) into something that meets our interests.

We still have at least a decade of pretty easy resources, there's been no global plague decimating the human population, and our tools did not spontaneously explode.

Thus, there's plenty of 'real stuff' for money to reflect. The problem is that we cannot seem to find who has all of it - because everywhere we look everyone *does* seem broke...

...but it's a capacity/resource access and distribution problem, not a capacity/resource insufficiency problem.

Expressing unvarnished opinions here is not a problem.

But returning to troll a blog after you've already been banned and opening a second (third, fourth, etc.) account is a problem.

Last week the resident troll was posting simultaneously on three accounts, trolling his own trolls.

This kind of childishness lowers the signal to noise ratio and makes having a coherent discussion almost impossible (not to mention the fact that this blog has no threading of replies by comment which makes it difficult to begin with).

This tends to drive away people who have a few legitimate comments to add to the week's discussion. And I (we?) would like to hear from these people rather than have them driven away by childish idiots.

What do you expect when the ruling elites determine that they no longer need a manufacturing base (except for bombs), and can instead run things on a perpetual Ponzi scheme.
That is until they find out that there is no perpetual.
When they have dumped the last coins outta the last rubes pockets, and there is no one else lining up to invest in the USA, then the Ponzi scheme runs outta dough.

Then what?

Guess we will find out pretty soon.
Stay Tuned to Channel Doom.
Dee

Time to party for another decade then, I guess.

What kind of a world is this where who works and works hard, earns much less than the one who bids?

The revolution should begin from this: no work, no bread.

Eat your stocks and your credit default swaps, or your derivatives. - Patrizia

You said it girl. There was an old Amer-Indian proverb along the lines of "when the last fish is caught and the last deer is shot White man will realize that you cannot eat money".

The appropriate soundtrack to all recent stuff seems anything Leonard Cohen...I'm thinking the album "The Future" with lyrics like

..."Things are going to slide, slide in all directions / Won't be nothing / Nothing you can measure anymore / The blizzard, the blizzard of the world / has crossed the threshold / and it has overturned / the order of the soul..."

And should you feel the need for uplifting stuff, Cohen is your go-to guy, too:

..."It's coming through a crack in the wall; on a visionary flood of alcohol; from the staggering account of the Sermon on the Mount which I don't pretend to understand at all. It's coming from the silence on the dock of the bay, from the brave, the bold, the battered heart of Chevrolet: Democracy is coming to the U.S.A. ..."

Perhaps it's coming, but it seems awfully late.

My words for the day:


Air Needed for the Gut Sucker

The New Reich is tired. The conspiracy transpired,
Hedgers hedged, cats meowed (still

In the bag).

The New Reich is funding tax credits, underwater

Reserves and laws--laws and rules of law in every color,
Laws more magical than rainbows, more bubbly with more pop, brown
Sugar without the shame of trans fats.

The New Reich eats cake with everybody.

The New Reich is benevolent.

The New Reich publicly doles blowjobs and hand jobs and snow jobs

About work. Work ennobles, work sets you free. Work
Damns possibility behind dusty concrete.
When the engine hums, the turbine chops pieces and parts
Into dog food. When the engine hums
The universe re-calibrates itself. Aye, aye.

The New Reich sets you free, free to choose, to dance or to slither

Round a pole, free to put a gun to your head.
Free of streets.

The New Reich allows travel. Feel free
To fan yourself

With images of someone’s great army of right minded men
Leashed to red dogs on a chase after napping cats.
Good luck with that. A side of fries, too.

B/E

"Thus, there's plenty of 'real stuff' for money to reflect."

I disagree with that statement. If you total up all the various kinds of money on the planet, it far exceeds the combined value of all the assets, by a lot.

This problem is solved by the neat trick of inflation. If there is too much money, then money itself becomes worth less. Neat huh?

As for your statements about resource usage and access, I don't see how you can possibly backup your argument that we're not at the start of a massive resource shortage. The signs are there. Massive and convincing documentation exists to refute your cornucopian idea that there is plenty to go around.

And you talk about "access" as if it is as simple as walking down to the 7-11 and buying a Big Gulp.

I was recently watching the series Ice Road Truckers. These guys supply mines and wells in northern Canada, one of those fairly inaccessible places where the resources are located. They have to build a 300+ mile road over frozen lakes to supply these remote installations, at a very high cost. That's the reality of "access." It is becoming more and more difficult as the easily accessible supplies dry up.

And then you say something about there being enough for ten years. Pardon me, but that isn't exactly a very long time, ya know?

BTW, just to put all this in context, if everyone consumed resources like Americans, we'd need 6 earths. Or was that just the Chinese?

Dee,

Money is essentially just credit. Donald Trump's liabilities are greater than his assets. He has just been able to compartmentalize so that losses in one of his businesses don't affect the others. And he has access to credit, so he's "rich."

The idea that the world can "run out" of money is a falacy. Money is essentially conjured out of thin air. But it is a banker's game, because those who receive this money have to pay it back with interest.

Even the federal government borrows money by selling bonds and has to pay back a consortium of banks (the Federal Reserve).

So, to answer your question, when the money runs out, they simply print more of it. The rich can absorb inflation fairly easily through a variety of means, including swapping out their dollars for different currencies, buying hard assets (real estate, etc.), etc.

The common person is the one who suffers when food, rent, medicine, etc. prices increase.

But we won't run out of money. It will just be worth less and less. In hyperinflationary situations, the value of money can fall to worthlessness.

It seems to me, though, that some major assets are undergoing deflation, e.g. real estate, even while others like food are in inflationary spirals for the forseeable future.

Everybody's quailing at the prospect of QE 3, in all its cosmic futility. - Mr K

"Cosmic futility" is right. Now that so much of American industry is offshored printing more money in the hope of stimulating economic activity when the productive capacity no longer exists is pretty much pushing on a rope.

The evil spirits haunting us are the ideas and theories promulgated by the economics profession about how markets and economies work. Markets and economies don't work the way economists say they do because if they did all the prescriptions offered up by economists to get us out of this mess would've worked. Which they haven't. In fact they've made things worse.

In fact what economists are saying is to do more of what hasn't worked until now and do more of what got us into this mess in the first place. Print more money, keep interest rates artificially low, let Wall Street have free reign, live by the dictum that all regulation is bad, that markets will self correct.

Yes, markets will self correct. By jumping off a cliff.

Message to Ben Bernanke: QE won't work. Why? Because there's no such thing as a free lunch.

For instance, the US gov sells $1 billion in bonds to the Federal Reserve. The Fed credits $1 billion in cash to the government's account, which it uses to pay its workers. Said workers then go out and spend that money on $1 billion in Muranos, cheese whiz, and Salad Shooters.

Did the Federal Reserve actually have that money sitting around to lend to the government? No it did not. The money was conjured out of thin air using accounting tricks.

And the Fed wants the principle plus interest paid back. But since money is mostly created using debt instruments (e.g. credit), there is never enough "real money" to pay back the interest + principle without creating more debt.

Neat huh?

Yep the TEA (Taxed Enough Allready) party while founded mostly by northern libertarians, has been hijacked by (mostly southern) Reprocrats. There have always been a number of Texans wanting their republic back. That's been true since statehood, and has grown in popularity recently. Some fit your charicature, most do not.

There are seperatist movements in several other areas that i know of. There are likely more. I am not a member of any, but have family in these areas and none of these movements share any racist agenda.

Vermont:

http://vermontrepublic.org/

New Hampshire: (not declared seperatist, headed there though)

http://freestateproject.org/

Interior Northwest: (more survivalist than seperatist) If USA lasts long enough, these folks will want to secede also.

http://www.survivalblog.com/redoubt.html

Just around the corner and down the road a little way...
--------------------------------------
Exactly where it has been for about 100 years now.

banning people results in a lot of collateral damage which takes out other interesting voices - where is Asoka...

--------

Evidently Turkle or somebody got me banned. I'm back with a similar handle, but feel a bit timid.

Wasn't me.

Thanks, Turkle. Not knowing whether it is a "glitch" or a banning that prevents logging is confusing.

Good post this week, JHK.

Lots of good metaphors.

Scary, though. Very scary.

I was a child, stupefied and Amazed at my country (US) in 1989 when the Chinese government slaughtered the protesters in Tienanmen Square.

I was in China 9 mos. before Tienanmen. Even at that point China was building in a manic way, joining the 20th century.

I was sitting in a hotel lobby having drinks with some Americans I met and we were all wondering whether China would be self-destructive enough to crack-down on democracy movements. We thought it would impede their economic growth, but alas, they showed us that Democracy and Capitalism were not tied at the hip, as our ideologues would tell you.

I agree with you one hundred percent. And I think JHK is missing out on the fact that a lot of folks like you are turning their backs on the rampant consumerism in America. Personally, I can afford a trip to K-mart to buy a package of 6 pairs of socks, made in China, of course. Instead I choose to darn the ones I have. The ones I can't wear anymore become dust rags.

Haven't eaten in a chain restaurant in at least a year. Turns me off. Too many of our small restaurants have gone under around here. Not because the food and service isn't good, but people are BROKE. I notice it in the stores, coffee shops, and supermarkets. Any advertised bargain is gone within a few hours. Shelves are picked clean.

Most folks may not be able to grow their own food, but around here many people garden, and they are more than happy to share excess squash, zuchinni, cucumbers, and tomatoes. So I agree with you about JHK under estimating all of us as Cheez Doodle chomping zombies. I look around and pleasantly see that despite the bad things people are doing to survive (stealing, lying), a sense of resiliency among the strong seems to have surfaced. Cheers to you for growing your own garden!

For what it's worth, the DOW has closed under more than 600 pts. Me thinks me hears TS hitting TF.

For what it's worth, the DOW has closed under more than 600 pts. Me thinks me hears TS hitting TF.

I think people ought to make up their minds.

When the DOW was soaring, and I gave credit to Obama, all I heard on CFN was: "don't confuse Wall Street with Main Street. The DOW is not the real economy."

Now that the DOW is diving... suddenly it seems to matter. When it is bad news for Obama, then all of a sudden the Dow tanking is the economy... TSHTF.

Make up your minds people.

I thought this weeks comments were kind of weak. Most of the people that reply have a better sense of what is going on and reporting it with more emotion. However, I do love the commentaries but always feel somewhat helpless after reading them. There are so many smart and capable people who reply with great knowledge and forethought. But why can't we come up with some kind of thinking out of the box to help each other out. I mean, if we see the destruction of the housing market reaching our neighborhoods, what is a way of approaching this problem that would help. I know we look to the big wheels like bankers and govt. reforms to bail us out, but that kind of passing the buck or recoiling in fear about the rising debt or the weakening of the dollar is really not a solution. Bad mouthing groups of people isn't the solution either, its too easy. The government seems to be controlled by men and women who don't seem to have a clue to fix ANY problems. Come on guys, instead of giving up your power, come up with solutions. We are all scared but farming in your backyard hardly answers anything, especially if you live in the northeast in the wintertime.
Maybe it has to get so bad, that people will be so willing to organize themselves and help get the laws passed that will enable the average man and woman to change themselves and in turn change this country to a viable, producing, strong, and worthwhile place to want to live. Kunstler looks to the past and maybe its the quality of strength and ingenuity,honesty and hard work that is gone today. Farming communities were important and people had to pull together in order to survive. Well we may live in cities and suburbs, but we still have to pull together to survive. But maybe its just not bad enough yet. Maybe all the fear and complaining here is just overblown and you all don't really mean a word of it. You may not really be suffering yet. The people here most probably aren't homeless, or dying of cancer without insurance, or starving and eating dog food. Maybe we have to get to that point before anything will turn around. I live in New York, and when 911 happened a miraculous thing also happened. New Yorkers became the shining examples of what humans can be if we need to be. Everyone, I mean everyone, helped each other out. The classes of wealth, race, and religions faded into the background and everyone became united. Human beings can band together and change their environment for the better. I hope it doesn't have to take another disasterous event to prove it.

Yes, indeed! I'm just here trying to read the tea leaves. You are right about people "seeing" the true economy reflected in the DOW.

Wait a second, here. I thought you got "banned"?

That moment was the ONE I hoped, above EVERYTHING, that would have brought us together, like Pearl Harbor. But what did we hear from our president? "Go shopping!" "Go visit Disney World!" ? WTF/ ?

Could it be that after all these years JHK could actually be right with his stock price picking? Holy Barakalypse there seems to be no floor to the prices and the monetization weapons chest is empty.

I have a biotech in my acct that today is at a P/E of 4.25. Gold and Silver are going retail.

Oh and London is burning because the make believe money is not there anymore.

Which American city will be the first to go up in flames because of "austerity?"

I know. But what would you expect to hear from the Govt....? They want us to be the good little bees, going to work and paying our taxes, not create waves and a society that more people feel empowered to determine their own lives in a productive way? Oh no. They want to treat us like common criminal/terrorists at our own airports and cower in fear in front of our tv sets. Better that our nation is completely addicted to something, ie, food, sex, drugs, drink, than be fully human and altrustic toward the people in the world we share. We have the power and the government knows it and is really afraid of us. That is why they want to keep us in constant state of dread so we listen to the Great Leaders!!!!

I live in the hills above Santa Cruz. It can be hard to grow a garden because of the deer. I've been growing potatoes in large garbage cans. It's been working very well. I use wire fencing to keep the deer out.

ozone, this is related to your comment posted at 11:16 this AM. I can't find the video, but here's a rush transcript they posted:

ROMANS: Richard, let's talk a little about Europe because that is something that Joe Duran also talked about. I mean it doesn't take very long when you talk to market participants, they look at future. They look at what is happening in Asian markets and then very quickly, they said you know but the debt crisis in Europe. This is another very big issue. Almost as big as the downgrade. The downgrade getting all the headlines in the U.S. But tell me what's happening with the European situation?

QUEST: No. No, no, no. No, no, no, no, no. No, no. I've got to take issue with you here.

ROMANS: Please do.

QUEST: The European debt crisis is a bigger issue than the U.S. debt downgrade. The U.S. downgrade was expected. It is not going to have a noticeable effect. It is a constant that has become a variable as (Mohammad Alariah) puts it. And it is certainly an absolute that has been changed. But actually business as usual tomorrow.

What you have in Europe is a fire that is smoldering, in some cases, and heading out of control in others. And if that continues, if they, if the ECP does not get a handle I know what the European Commission and others on Italy, on Spain, worries about whether Portugal and Ireland will need a second bailout, what will happen to freeze long term even though it has been put off the agenda for the time being? Fiscal union within the union. If they don't haggle on those, everything else, pardon the pun Gandhi, everything else looks like a tea party.

ROMANS: There you go. OK, Richard Quest, stick with us. We'll hit a break on that note. On Richard telling me no, no, no.

But he says Europe is a bigger, bigger issue than the downgrade, we are all talking about. We're going to talk to John Vause about this as well. Europe needs a bond buying boost. But will the European central bank explore the risk?

************

ok, this is daofirry2 again. Richard Quest was just stressing the sheer enormity and hopelessness of what is going on in Europe. He seems largely in accord with the sense I get from JHK here. You should keep an eye out for the video, if they post it. He was really worked up about it.

...but I have no fear if London is burning.

I LIVE BY THE RIVER.......

"What type of blog would you prefer, Prog?.....
...I say keep it real in allowing the mindset that actually resides out there in Clusterfuck Nation to voice itself, whatever that might be."
-buckstud-

Sure, Buck, I've got no problem with that. But when FabTootTrue reincarnates for the umpteenth time on a Monday and starts screwing up the discussion - - I will speak up - because I hate to see new posters waste their energies, before leaving CFN in disgust.

Maybe we need NO bannings and no censorship at all. And eventually the experienced CFN posters would learn the futility of engaging FabTootTrue.
As an example - and after being called a racist for the THIRD time over immigration - I vowed to never again engage Asoka/Soak. So far that's working out pretty well for me.

All I'm really doing is suggesting that that approach will work for FabTootTrue, as well.

And suggesting to JHK that if you're going to ban posters - Then, have somebody take a look at the thread on Monday and then , Before Gawd, BAN the recurrently nasty posters, with his associated asshats, and f*cktards.

Or we could all just *enjoy!* internet anarchy.

But trying to ban posters and allow anarchy simultaneously - isn't working very well for the CFN discussion.
================
And yeah, yeah - I know I'm talking about people and not ideas. But Mitt Romney is all over the news talking about Obama as the cause of the S&P engineered stock market drop.
So he did it first! hahahohohehe

Well, I'd hope that once FabTootTrue's posts are flushed down the internet memory hole for a few months, it would realize that posting here is a waste of time and go away for good.

At least, that's what a sane person would do.

There is no question that overpopulation underlies virtually everything happening but no one wants to hear it. The astoundingly lame notion that global growth will fix this mess is beyond ignorant.

Fighting against overpopulation is tilting at windmills. There's virtually nothing you can do about it. Even some seemingly benign and good activities like improving infant survival in developing countries actually makes the problem worse. Breeding is hard-wired into our biology, and the solution to this problem is far more likely to be worked out in the context of ecology, not by technical solutions (even though they exist). The problem is that restrictions on having children, like China's infamous 1 child per family policy, are considered totalitarian and are certainly not acceptable in modern democratic societies, where people can have basically as many children as they want. I don't see that changing, well, ever.

Perhaps I'm just a fatalist about the whole issue. I basically agree with your assessment. I just don't see the usefulness in fretting over something over which I have absolutely no control.

As an example - and after being called a racist for the THIRD time over immigration - I vowed to never again engage Asoka/Soak.

----------

I have been very tolerant of your racism, P,C.

But after the umpteenth time you recommended joining/sending money to racist John Tanton's FAIR and NumbersUSA, I had to call you out on your racist stance re: immigration.

If you continue support racists and if you continue to call for people to support anti-immigrant organizations founded/funded by John Tanton, then expect to be called a racist.

Prog,

I don't specifically recall Asoka terming you a racist, however, I do recall him asserting that the leader of a certain anti-illegal immigration group that you were actively promoting on this site had a racist track record. Personally, I have no idea the truth of the matter, but I do recall you becoming indignant over the charge without refuting the specifics of Asoka's assertion.

As far as listening to any member of the GOP, well I would rather go to a paid seminar with the Flim-Flam Man. They are hands down, the most corrupt, duplicitous, meretricious political party on the face of the earth.

One would think, Turk.
Maybe more importantly, once posters realize that responding to FabTooTrue will cause their words to vanish as well - they will stop giving FabToot's tormented spirit the attention it craves.

O3, you and Cash lost some pretty good comments to this most recent FabTootTrue banning. I don't know who all else might have lost posts as well. Maybe you can all reproduce them for us.

Now, Buck, if only someone had warned the thread that a banning like this might happen, eh?
==============
And BTW, I've never emailed JHK. And my only aliases have been due to my own bannings - Which I've decided have been due to high numbers of attempted postings in a single week.

Once a post of mine gets blocked I tend to get a little OCD about FORCING it onto the thread, ya' know what I mean?

So, forewarned is forearmed, y'all.


Indirectly global growth does address overpopulation, to the extent that material conditions improve and to the extent that girls are educated and women are empowered resulting in reduced birthrates.

Man, everyone in here is acting all mad and stuff. So, first to the liberal left, get over it. I am a "tea bagger terrorist", and, I am not twelve years old, your juvenile insults only improve upon my thesis that liberals are true victims of the education system they put into place. (In other words-- your not clever, your not intelligent, in fact your quite petty and immature, and if that makes you mad, or angry-- get over it or die trying.) See, the give them a hug generation is a complete mess. Never had to work to achieve, never had to aspire, never really created anything of value. Now that the big bad mamma market is spanking the crap out them.. all they can do is result to piss moan and insult. (Pssst-- Create a solution you jack asses). I for one am glad of this market, when the shit really hits the shine-- only one class of people are going to be left to pick it up-- survivors. So, liberals, how are you going to survive-- can you hunt (with out a gun), can you fish, can you field strip an animal, do you really know how hard it is to grow and maintain a small farm of an acre or so? I have news for you, whining and pissing and moaning about tea bagger terrorist is not going to feed your hungry ass. Let me summarize- liberals are worthless fools that will more likely than not be the first people on the planet to starve to death, because somewhere, someone told them the world owes them something, and by God and rising Hell flood waters they will stay entrenched in that mind set until that smell of decay and scream of self pity carries them away to--- nothing.

>I'm about done with this place.

Nah, don't do that, cause if u do then the lame freeloaders win and the thoughtful folks lose.
There are losers everywhere around you in the "real life" too, you just ignore them. Just scroll down, don't sweat the small stuff.

China will get property in Toledo adjacent to major transportation lines and the Maumee River with access to the Great Lakes.

The area and deal you are talking about is in the Marina District. This is being touted locally as a 300 million dollar development deal. Toledo is a dead city as far as growth goes ! What does papasan have in mind ? This area along the river also contains the remenents of Toledo Ship Building. Isn't too far from both the BP and SUNOCO refineries as well as being less then a mile downstream from Andersons and ADM's grain shipment facilities. Also because of it's prime location Toledo sits astradel both main east/west - north/south highway and rail crossings. Prime indeed for shipping out whatever they might need. The Toledo Express Airport currently handles BAX 747's with more then enough room for take off and landing fully loaded.

Makes you wonder what's up indeed. Do you think they will send troops to oversee their investment and to protect the huge student base at The University of Toledo ?

"but I do recall you becoming indignant over the charge without refuting the specifics of Asoka's assertion." -buck-

He did it - three separate times, Buck. The second time you, yourself, defended me, "I don't think you're a racist."

Racist is the ULTIMATE charge to use against a white man in America, Buck, if you want to stop productive discussion or push an agenda.

Accusing me of "becoming indignant," is - - ?

And there's no use in trying to defend yourself against the charge, either. Just last week a CFN poster was accused of "protesting too much," against the charge of racism.

I think (not sure) that dale leveled the charge of protesting too much against the guy who collected eye glasses in CA. Yeah, Dolan Williams, right. First time poster? Accused of being a white racist. Gives up trying to defend himself? Wonder if he'll come back to CFN?

No real point in trying to take the issue farther, after a charge like that is made.

You've been watching too many Spaghetti Westerns there, Daniel Boone. The "Man With No Name" ain't going to come out on top in the dire scenario you write about. The winners will be the collectivists (Gasp).

Toodle-Doodle-Doodle-Do...Waah,Waah,Waah.

Well Prog, I did defend you that is true. And yet you still haven't refuted Asoka's charges or renounced the organization that you were promoting if Asoka is indeed correct.

At this point my opinion means very little in comparison to your response on the issue.

I probably shouldn't, but oh well...

"Man, everyone in here is acting all mad and stuff."

I'm not mad. You, on the other hand, are frothing at the mouth a bit.

"I am a "tea bagger terrorist""

I couldn't have summarized your post any better. Welcome to the CF.

By the way, where do you get off criticizing other people's education? Your post is filled with horrible grammar, run-on sentences, and non-sequiturs. And how about using that "Enter" key to make a paragraph or two.

Didn't they teach you about punctuation and sentence structure in Tea Bagger school? Or were you too busy learning about important stuff like Obama the Commie and his fake birth certificate?

TSHTF and you're going to hunt?! Um, no. If the majority or a large portion of the 300 million people living in America try to resort to hunting and fishing to feed their suburban families, it will not work, at all. There isn't enough game and fish to provide for even a small fraction of the population's needs. So political stripes will not matter. We'd all be screwed anyways.

"I for one am glad of this market"

Is that because you have zero assets and live in the back of mom's double-wide? Or am I assuming too much?

"liberals are worthless fools that will more likely than not be the first people on the planet to starve to death"

I guess the Somalis and Ethiopians must all be liberals. That's probably news to them.

Prog,

Just for the record I like reading you and appreciate your posts. You're always very polite and cordial and I appreciate that. And I still don't sense you're a racist; you seem too much like a people person. On the other hand, I wonder if if some Dixie Pride is having a hard time admitting to a lack of homework and research.

So while the country is going broke, I've been trying to keep the Marcellis Gas Companies out of my backyard. Soon I'll be knee deep in frak fluid.
At a Marcellus protest meeting a Methodist preacher told us that the TEA PARTY folks worship Ayn Rand........free market type that would drill your eyes out.....
Anybody know anything about this bitch?

Thanks very much. Most kind of you to go to the trouble. I'll look into the transcript link and watch for the video to be posted. They've nothing from August as yet, I'll stay tuned.

I'll trade all my euros for a copy of the Soggy Bottom Boys. Why the whole damn state is goin apey!

What a nice, honest, and refreshing post HK. Sort of like a good whack between the eyes with heavy, rusted, and rapidly decaying pipe out of a rotting building one of the soon-to-be abandoned urban metroplexes in Anytown, USA.

As my father (who extricated himself from all dollar assets two years ago and began massively buying gold) told me earlier today, "it's going to be ugly...very ugly. I'm glad I'm old."

The wolf is indeed at the door, and it's hungry. The chicken tried to come home to roost but the wolf has already eaten it for an appetizer...and now for the main course.. And still all the fools on both sides of the pond are denying the wolf is here, despite the fact the chicken has been eaten!

Meanwhile, our little neighborhood abandoned a large piece of formerly grassy park and has turned it into a community garden. It's only for hobby and fun now, but we hear the wolf howling on the horizon...

Water trucks up and down route 46 night and day over here in McKean County. Enough to gag a maggot. Nice sheen on Potato creek also.

"O3, you and Cash lost some pretty good comments to this most recent FabTootTrue banning. I don't know who all else might have lost posts as well. Maybe you can all reproduce them for us." -PoC

LOL! That would be quite impossible in my case; I suspect Cash could do much better.
I post comments like I write songs:
Compose; record; forget.

I suppose that I regard most things as very temporal (like music performed live; right here now, then vanished into the ether, just as a fading note). Could be that it's a defense against the depression of loss; you can't miss what can't be held onto. I dunno; just the way I'm built, I guess.

I appreciate the thought though! :o)

Are you going to lead by example, Troll Boy?

Well okay then!
You boys ain't nigras are ye?
Well... okay then, let's get silly with it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZtgZ5fHOuU&feature=related

"Hey Beavis...Check out this message from The Department of Homeland Security...."

"We know that terrorist groups inspired by al Qaeda’s ideology are seeking to inspire and recruit Westerners to carry out attacks with little or no warning. Indeed, one of the most striking aspects of today’s threat picture is that plots to attack America increasingly involve American residents and citizens. "

"Dear Stakeholders,

Please see below a blog post from Secretary Napolitano, and a link to a fact sheet highlighting The Department of Homeland Security’s (DHS) approach to countering violent extremism (CVE). DHS has been working with a broad range of partners to gain a better understanding of the behaviors, tactics, and other indicators that could point to potential terrorist activity within the United States, and the best ways to mitigate or prevent that activity. Our approach to CVE emphasizes the strength of local communities.

As you know, last week, President Obama released the National Strategy on Empowering Local Partners to Prevent Violent Extremism in the United States, the first U.S. Government strategy to address ideologically-inspired radicalization to violence in the homeland.
Thank you for all you do to help keep our nation safe and secure.

The Blog @ Homeland Security

Monday, August 8, 2011

How DHS is Countering Violent Extremism

Posted by Secretary Napolitano

For the past several years, DHS and our partners have worked to develop and strengthen a homeland security ”enterprise” to reduce risks, protect our nation, and respond effectively to a terrorist attack or a natural disaster. This effort is based on the simple but powerful premise that our homeland security begins with hometown security.

In other words, we are all stakeholders in the effort to keep our families and communities, our businesses, our social networks, and our places of meeting and worship, secure and resilient. Together, we’re building a strong foundation to protect communities from terrorism and other threats, while safeguarding the fundamental rights of all Americans.


Today’s threats are rapidly evolving, and they require our vigilance, as well as our willingness to learn and adapt. We know that terrorist groups inspired by al Qaeda’s ideology are seeking to inspire and recruit Westerners to carry out attacks with little or no warning. Indeed, one of the most striking aspects of today’s threat picture is that plots to attack America increasingly involve American residents and citizens.

But we also know that violent extremism isn’t constrained by international borders, or by any single ideology. Research and experience shows that religion, ethnicity, and cultural background do not explain why a small few choose to take their radical beliefs down a violent path. Because there is no single profile of a would-be terrorist, we therefore don't have the luxury of focusing our efforts on any particular group.

That is why over the past eighteen months, DHS has been working with a broad range of partners to gain a better understanding of the behaviors, tactics, and other indicators that could point to terrorist activity. And we’re sharing what we know about the best ways to mitigate or prevent that activity.

Our approach to countering violent extremism emphasizes the strength of local communities. We begin with the premise that well-informed and -equipped families, communities, and local institutions represent the best defense against terrorist ideologies and violent extremists.

And while our primary purpose is to prevent a terrorist attack by individuals recruited by violent extremists, or inspired by an extremist ideology, we also support strong and resilient communities as important ends in themselves.

A new Fact Sheet we are releasing today outlines our three main objectives:
Support and coordinate efforts to better understand the phenomenon of violent extremism, including assessing the threat it poses to the Nation as a whole and within specific communities;
Bolster efforts to catalyze and support non-governmental, community-based programs, and strengthen relationships with communities that may be targeted for recruitment by violent extremists; and
Disrupt and deter recruitment or individual mobilization through support for local law enforcement programs, including information-driven, community-oriented policing efforts that for decades have proven effective in preventing violent crime.


To implement this approach, DHS is working closely with our federal and international partners, as well as our many partners at the community, state, local, and tribal level across the country. We are an important partner in supporting the National Strategy on Empowering Local Partners to Prevent Violent Extremism, which President Obama released last week.


America has a long history of communities playing an active role in their own security. Today, hometowns across the country are working together, building a strong foundation for a secure and resilient homeland.

Protecting the nation is a shared responsibility and we all have a role to play.

Please do not reply to this message. See our Contact Us page for phone numbers and e-mail addresses.

STAY CONNECTED"

It's a rare week when JHK's posting - with its sharp-edged hilarity - is almost understated in light of reality. The established political and financial frameworks are quickly unraveling worldwide and in that context, Obama's declaration that "America will always be a AAA nation" conveys panic and not assurance.

The irony of it all - is that with today's market meltdown, oil prices declined as well. Meaning, since we're poorer than yesterday and expect to continue down the path to serfdom, there's a bit more time to devise alternatives. Or not - since all "alternative" approaches require capital the likes of only countries like China and Singapore can invest. Bicycles anybody?

How about this for a money-generating idea - put the entire suburban project up for sale to anybody with enough capital to pay for the inventory. With all of its disadvantages, people worldwide yearn to come here and be allowed to live in the soon-to-be-extinct detached home. Give a green card to anybody who can pay cash for one of those, and start returning home those long-lost dollars.
Canada did this in the 1980s with Hong Kong and the result was Vancouver as we know it today.
Ooops, did I say immigration reform?

You DO know that appealing to town council meetings isn't gonna stop this shit, right? There's too much money to be made by those who hand out the "permits". They can't pursue these practices without very expensive machinery. Right?

Pardon me, would you be interested in buying some real cheap paper money ?
But wait, if you jump right now I'll throw in a wheelbarrow. This deal won't last. Visa and Mastercard not accepted.

As my father (who extricated himself from all dollar assets two years ago and began massively buying gold) told me earlier today, "it's going to be ugly...very ugly. I'm glad I'm old."
===================

It is my observation that every time gold goes up $70 in a day (or similar percentage equivalent) it brings out the people who claim to have "extricated themselves from all dollar assets two years earlier" and used the proceeds to massively buy gold. Yes, it's never "modestly" or even "a lot." It's always massively. I guess we are supposed to picture the joists beneath the safe with the gold in it groaning under the weight.

Hey, Butthead, mehe-ahehehhe, he-he; you hold the stake and I'll hit it with the sledgehammer. Hehehehe-a-he; trust me. Maybe you could just hold my stake. Hehe

(What a classic missive from DHS. Thanks for posting it, and notice there are no specific directives other than "working with the authorities". Haw! Riiiiight, just place yourself under the benevolent guidance of the altruistic and peace-lovin' po-lice; that's the ticket!)

Greetings,

I've read several comments about how liberals (collectivists) are going to be the 1st to "starve to death". Now, I realize that there is quite a bit of polarization in this country but does everything have to be placed in the liberal/conservative box? It seems silly and it also appears to be so by design to keep people from working together.

When I talk to my neighbors about how we're going to caravan out into the ocean to wait out the chaos (we all live on sailboats), no one is talking about political ideology. Of course, we have practical problems to worry about as the ocean is ever trying to swallow our homes.

We have a workable plan though as all of us have food, water, maps, the ability to generate electricity, survival gear and the means to move anywhere in the world without the use of fossil fuels. It will be quite the collectivist undertaking. We've got a nice uninhabited desert island picked out as well should we desire that option.

I feel bad for anyone that isn't prepared.

Good luck.

Yesterday, I saw an interview with Greenspan on the Boob Toob.

Greenspan said: "It is impossible for the U.S. to default on its debt because the U.S. can print an infinite amount of money to pay its debts."

Think about it: U.S. dollars are "debt notes" issued by the Federal Reserve in exchange for Treasury Bonds issued by the US Treasury. Greenspan is, in effect, saying that the U.S. can never be unable to pay its debts as they come due (i.e., bankruptcy) because the U.S. can issue even more debt to cover the existing debt.

Financial diarrhea.

They've all gone MAD....

"...DHS is working closely with our federal and international partners, as well as our many partners at the community, state, local, and tribal level across the country." -Dept. of Hitlerian Shit-flinging

Dear DHS (and beloved Janet),
Please advise as to the identities of these "many partners" to which you allude. I'm making a scrapbook for school, and wish to bring more kids into the inner circle of spies at the next show and tell. Sounds like fun!

Please respond with a comprehensive listing, and we'll do the rest!

Thank you in red, white and blue,
-The Patriot Kid

Ps. Do we get decoder rings and handcuffs too? That would be cool, but don't tell my mom! (Ha ha.)

"If you continue support racists and if you continue to call for people to support anti-immigrant organizations founded/funded by John Tanton, then expect to be called a racist."
-asoka-

Let me start here, Buck. Is there ANY organization ANYWHERE that can oppose illegal and LEGAL immigration into the US.

That will not be labeled racist by asoka.

The floor is open for suggestions.

I can guarantee that asoka will not make one.

That's what I was saying above and was chastised by the troll for suggesting. I'm actually trying to figure out if there's more to it than that, but it kinda seems like Greenspan agrees with me.

According to media gods Hannity and Limbaugh, yes, everything must be placed in a conservative or liberal box.

Well, I suppose your observation could be correct for many a posting braggart, but as I stand to gain nothing from my father's financial foresight, as he is remarried and his new wife is younger and quite healthy, and besides, I have not yet caught him in a lie related to financial matters, so I suspect he's probably telling the truth. There are, after all, millions of people who have been buying massive amounts of gold these past few years. Given his overall financial success, it stands to reason he'd be one of them.

As for me, I hadn't the assets to buy gold, so the best I can do is brag about starting a community garden.

"Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity."

W.B. Yeats "The Second Coming"

I am particularly drawn to the line "The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity".

Is it not time for social democrats to summon some conviction and vote ... lordy knows the passionate Tea Partiers rolled out last year and turned a result.

The US political system should not be hostage to minority interests ... it's time for the centre to step up, vote in numbers and steer the ship.

yea O3, My buddy and myself put down some tracks. I could not remember the leads if ya held a gun ta my head! totally spur of the moment. he be strummin and makin' up lyrics as we went along and I would just fill 'dat shit in. Man I miss him.I perhaps we may all miss a lot of people in the coming years. I am about 3/4 of the way into "THE STAND" by Steven King. I am not really a big SK fan But I can say this one is a little interesting at 1200 pages.

"I don't specifically recall Asoka terming you a racist, however, I do recall him asserting that the leader of a certain anti-illegal immigration group that you were actively promoting on this site had a racist track record...."

So, OK Buck, asoka just called me a racist for the 4th time. And people wonder why I no longer attempt any dialog with asoka.???

===========
And - very briefly - to cases. Asoka quoted the SPLC which labeled FAIR as a racist group because of its PREVIOUS association with John Tanton.
http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer

So, OK - I went onto the SPLC website and found an organization called NumbersUS, which has the highest approval of the SPLC.

"NumbersUSA is the most reasoned of the anti-immigration groups, offering information on the relationship between immigration and the environment." -splc-
http://www.splcenter.org/
http://www.numbersusa.com/content/

So, despite my efforts at compromise, and despite my frequent requests to the CFN readership that someone come up with something better than NumbersUSA - basically, despite my requests for assistance from asoka - he offers nothing -

yet calls me "racist."

As dale and Dolan showed us week -
there is no real way to defend against this charge - without "protesting too much."

Any ideas here, Buck?

"As dale and Dolan showed us LAST week -
there is no real way to defend against this charge of being a white racist - without "protesting too much."

-P2C - edited-

Not That I was ever a big Sam K fan but he does make some sense. If you live in desert don't keep having kids.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKNoJ2BzSRU

http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/hate-map

This is actually a very interesting map, and it's clickable by state.

Click CA, for example, and there are 68 "Hate Groups" identified by the SPLC.
But fully 1/3 of these Hate Groups are identified by the SPLC as BLACK Nationalist - or something else.

For example there are chapters of the Jewish Defense League in California. SPLC identifies these as Hate Groups. The SPLC says, correctly, that hate is hate.

Care to comment, Methuselah?

Hi P2C. I sympathize with you, you're trying to walk through the garden without getting anything on the bottom of your shoe that will have to be scraped off. Just ignore it like I've said time and time again. For the most part, you appear to be doing well with that approach. I judge by your posts about Asoka, that he's still able to get under your skin. Honest to God, reading some of that crap he writes (I don't read him anymore)is like trying to eat a 10 pound bag of sugar. I find him to be cloying, met a few of his ilk out in San Francisco and they were much the same breed. He's ok in small doses, but he's easy to OD on, which is why I ignore his preaching. If you would just acknowledge his enlightenment on all things, as well as his humility, which he is sure to trot out on any occasion, I think he might finally be satisfied. I could have saved a lot of trouble if I had only realized right from the first that I was dealing with a Buddha, oh well, my mistake. Have a good one

Good Morning JHK: Great read, especially if you have Fox News on the background screaming, we need more supply side business pratices, and another Fox head screaming, market goes up, and down all the time, it is Capitalism, not to worry. FYI--great read at www.salon.com about how the Tea Party membership is mostly the good olde South and NO New England Folks are present. At this writing Asia stocks down 1000 points,oh how will Bill O'Rielly do now?

Apropos to nothing, the CFN comment count has been declining over the past 5 weeks yet, in total, is more than double the comparable period last year. Here are the numbers:

2011
7/04 1201
7/11 1111
7/18 1072
7/25 898
8/01 758
total 5040

2010
7/05 540
7/12 442
7/19 391
7/26 410
8/02 599
total 2382

I, and many others, are not "growing all our food". we are growing enough to significantly lower our grocery bills and improve our health. Not to mention sharing with others. I met a retired gentleman who was gardening a half acre and helping supply three different food banks.

Call it revenge of the squares. If YOU were dumb enough to invest YOUR money in companies which are so badly overleveraged that a miniscule decline in sales, on account of persons like me not buying their products, puts those same companies in bankruptcy, more fool YOU. It is not my job to be keeping incompetents in business by buying crapola I don't need with money I don't have.

I might not be able to grow tomatos in Jan., but last year I froze enough tomato sauce that I didn't have to buy sauce or any other tomato product all winter.

I don't need massive inputs; I use a spade and a digging fork and compost and mulch. I might have spent between $50-100 (the cost of about 3 meals for me and grandkids at any of the fancier chains) on inputs over the last two years, and that was only because I also grow some rare ornamentals.

Sophisticates like you have been sniggering and sneering at folks like me for decades.

"Loving hands at home."

"Regular Betty Crocker"

"Made that herself? Does she do windows?"

All you regular guy materialists and disdainful urban sophisticates can kiss my tush, cause when you need something of a practical nature from one of us, I think you damn well better be asking nicely and paying well.

Regarding the racist label, why don't you tell Asoka "sticks and stones will break my bones but names will never hurt me." That's always a good come-back.

If that doesn't work tell him if he doesn't stop calling you a racist you're going to be really "cross" with him. I know that's harsh but it's often effective.

Jesus, what a wuss.

Gold, eh? For everyone buying gold, someone else is selling it to him. Hmm, what do the sellers know?

Did you people know that at various times in history governments either confiscated their subjects' gold, or outlawed privat possession of gold (aside from personal jewelry).

But let's assume that the dollar will lose most of its value one day and a "new" dollar, a stable dollar, will replace it. Then all the gold hoarders rush to exchange their gold for the new dollar, and what happens to the value of gold when everyone's trying to sell it?

But maybe you think you'll be buying bread with your gold during the lean times? Yeah, as soon as people find out you have gold, your life will be in grave jeopardy.

Maybe you arent' buying "gold" but rather buying some sort of paper (i.e. stocks) backed by gold (mining companies, etc). Do you know what happened when the USSR fell apart? Those who ran various companies ended up stealing them. DOn't think it can happen here? Remember ENRON and others of its ilk?

Me, I'm investing all of my money in the beautiful northern Ohio real estate, I'm now getting quite good income from rental houses in the Cleveland area. People will always need a roof over their heads, and Cleveland (aside from a few demographic and commercial problems at the moment) has a great future -- surrounded by some of the best farmland 15 minutes away from the city with lots of traditional farms, many of which are Amish; all the water needed by industry and agriculture, access to the international waterways, universities, lots of industrial properties, plenty of rail capacity.
Did you know that Cleveland once rivaled NY for wealth creation and culture?

"Jesus, what an wuss."
-q, projecting (protesting?)too much?-

You want I should call him an fucktard like your hero Fabian, Mister Q??
============
Seriously, Q - "racist" is an pretty big fighting word in my neck of the woods - and slung around way too frequently by pro-immigrant groups of various stripes.

Are you saying that it's OK to use the word "racist" to stop an civil discussion?

I have an old childhood friend in Bavaria who, when Germany joined the Maastricht Treaty and the ECB, he put the bulk of his assets into CHF. He never belived that the Eurozone will endure, and he's very smug now.

An important step is to get the religious fanatics to stop carrying on about the importance of population growth, the wonders of babies and large families, and the evils of birth control and abortion, or else to push them to the farthest margins of the public debate.

I refer first and foremost to my own church, the Roman Catholic Church, one that I often regret having joined precisely because its positions on sexuality and related matters are so recklessly and coldly absolutist. My concerns again came to a head the other day when I discovered that an old church and school buddy currently undertaking a medical residency is applying for a church grant to study natural family planning in depth.

The intellectual basis of NFP is that it there is, or else can be, enough spiritual and physical discipline among the laity to make couples "holy" enough to rely solely on a birth control method that involves abstaining from coitus when the wife is generally at her horniest. To be blunt, this is not feasible for most couples. One might as well eliminate all cruelty in the world by praying for its end.

To make the infeasible insufferable, NFP orthodoxy enjoins all non-coital sex acts as well. The only place a man may ejaculate is directly into his wife's vagina. On reflection, I can't understand what is so unholy about a committed couple exchanging blow jobs or hand jobs, especially if the purpose is to avoid an unwanted pregnancy. In the Church's eyes, however, it is somehow linked to divorce and all sorts of other familial disrespect and dysfunction. There is apparently no middle ground to keep families from falling apart.

Of course, this makes the Church hierarchy look out-of-touch at best and malicious at worst. What we have is a celibate, or at least nominally celibate, clergy waxing eloquent about the virtues of unprotected vaginal intercourse. In the same vein, we have a childless, or at least nominally childless, clergy waxing eloquent about the wonders of large families. The absurdities would be hilarious if they weren't so serious.

These clerics are not the ones who bear the consequences when their policy prescriptions fail, but few people have the courage to call them out on their hypocrisy. Doing so stirs up a nasty hornet's nest in church circles. This is true in some Protestant circles these days, too. There is a lot more common cause between Protestants and Catholics against secular elements than most outsiders realize, and a lot of the alliances are on wedge issues, especially abortion.

There's something monomaniacal and historically ignorant about the Catholic Church's fixation on sexuality. I don't entirely know how this has come about since the Church has engaged in so much genuine scholarship in other areas.

The crux of the matter is this: unprotected sex is adaptive when mortality rates are high but maladaptive when mortality rates are low. The reason it becomes maladaptive is that it results in population overshoots, which almost inevitably result in immense human suffering and death.

To put it another way, there will be blood, so pick your poison. I find abortion somewhat disturbing and unfortunate, but I can certainly brook it when the alternatives are famine, war, or disease among the living. Claiming that any of the latter can be averted on the necessary scale in the event of a population overshoot is naive unto idiocy; claiming that it is better for the living to suffer and be killed than for babies not to be birthed into an unstable environment is deranged and immoral. Lucky us, we get both monumental foolishness and hypocritical asshattery from the hierarchy on these matters.

There's also the school of thought that considers demography to be a military front in which a society had better bring its best weapons and warriors to the front. This is particularly visible between Muslim and Christian factions in sub-Saharan Africa. There's also a lot of handwringing about white Christian Europeans not reproducing themselves and allowing their countries to be overrun by Muslim hordes, to their ultimate cultural detriment. There is some validity to these critiques, but immigration policy and reproduction are not inextricably linked (witness Japan), and it is immensely irresponsible to advocate demographic war as a solution to cultural dilution. The side effects are gnarly as hell.

So to the guys out there who are being bullied and pigeonholed by their religious congregations into breeding more than they'd like, I say: don't be a punk; wrap your junk. Or give her head when she's fertile. Different strokes for different folks. Consider abortion if you have a badly timed woopsie. And if anyone finds these suggestions indecent, take a fucking look at the news from Somalia.

New Georgia Guidestone:

I: Look, I have a beautiful sex life, I want for nothing, and am a complete liberal asshole. Your problems are not my fault.

II: Food will never be worth anything except as savings, which is not real income.

III: The Internet is absolutely essential, especially at home. Check out your neighborhood and see if it is available.

IV: Pets can be eaten in times of crisis.

V: Feeding tubes and diapers are the end result of a long, healthy life.

VI: When playing with a gun don't point it at family members.

VII: Please limit your self to one foreign object per masturbation session.

VIII: And finally, do what other people tell you to do.

Prog,

Just because the racist charge is too casually tossed around doesn't mean it doesn't have validity in certain instances. And you still haven't answered Asoka's specific charge regarding the leader of the group you're promoting. Well I did a search, from the very SPLC that you cited in your post,and quite frankly it doesn't bode well for your position on the issue.

I believe what Asoka is tagging you with guilt by association. But if you're going to continue to dance around the crux of the controversy and don the the wolf cried too many times umbrella as cover against the rains of criticism then I see no point in continuing with this line of dialogue.

At present time the Asian markets are down anywhere from 4.4 to 6.3 percent. Britain's FTSE is down 7 percent and the American markets are threatening to start down around 2.5 percent. Meanwhile Britain has rioted all night (hence their numbers), a reaction to their bitter repression of the peaceful riots.

2012 can't come soon enough, I'm afraid.

Not only that but I forgot to add the f***ing fabric softener!

Buck,
Take a look at this paragraph, man.

'I believe what Asoka is tagging you with guilt by association. But if you're going to continue to dance around the crux of the controversy and don the the wolf cried too many times umbrella as cover against the rains of criticism then I see no point in continuing with this line of dialogue."
-BuckStud, apparently agreeing with asoka that US population can never be too large-

Seriously Buck,
"don the wolf cried too many times umbrella as cover against the rains of criticism then I see....."

Buck, man - that piece of a sentence wins the mixed metaphor award AND makes you sound a little conflicted, here.

Population growth is THE issue.

How large do you think the US should grow?
When is big, too big?

Am I a racist for doing what I can to help my family, my country, and my Planet, by reducing immigration rates?

Say what's on your mind, Buck.


This article compares the leadership of Dr. King to that of Barack Blacula:

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2011/08/07-5

Remember the "Wizard of Id" cartoon in which the King (a very short king) is standing atop a 20 foot dais looking down scornfully upon the despondent peasant?

The King remarks: "I can't solve your problem. I am your problem!"

Prog,

There are many issues. The issue we are discussing - Asoka accusing you of being a racist, or at least championing a group led by a potential racist - is the issue we have been discussing. And your avoidance of the issue - I think you did not do your homework and are unwilling to concede a point to Asoka - is increasingly defining you as a punk and a coward, and - AND - the very impediment that you accuse Asoka of being.

Come on Prog, put up the SPLC link pertaining to the leader of the group you champion. Fair enough?

That is exactly what is happening here in Europe.
In Germany: it is the fault of those bastards of Greeks or Italians or Spanish...in Italy it is all for those bastards of Germany, while they do not know (because the Media doesn’t tell)that when the European Bank prints Euro gives them to the banks at 1% interest ant they buy Italian Greek, Spanish etc. bonds at 6% (greek even 13% interest).
So people starve and Banks make huge profits and then, when the country risks to fail their own country bails out the bank...
That is what happens in America too.
AND WE HAVE TO STOP IT.
WE have two goals: producing AGAIN and stop speculation.
How to reach it?
Taxing financial transactions and NOT taxing production.
Do you want to make money?
Instead of gambling on Wall Street open a factory employ people and produce.

I know the politicians do not want it, politicians usually want what the people who pay them better want.
But WE are millions and they are just thousands.
If we are ALL together we can win.

I invested ALL my money ( I had a good inheritance from my parents and saved a lot, I am old time saver number 1)in real estate here in Germany.
My husband lost his job and I had no job.
So we bought run down buildings, hired people and restored them.We both worked with them.
Now we plan to rent them and make a living.
Yesterday I was telling my husband: if we had bought gold and done nothing, now we would be multi millionaires and enjoy life.

But, if ALL the people who bough gold, had invested in their own contry and worked, now the country would be much better off.

Having gold won´t save them, I am sure.
While having nice houses to rent at an affordable price, nice land to work in, will certainly make our life more productive and may be healtier.
I do not know if I would have more satisfaction in seeing that my gold gets more expensive or that my salad is growing well...
As Cash said, salad is good to eat, gold is not even good as toilet paper.

For how long?
In the German supermarkets on the border with Switzerland sales plummeted of 560% in a few days.
So it is the sales of cars, ALL domestic appliances and so on.
The same is happening on the Austrian and Italian borders.
They cost more than 30% less than in Switzerland.
How long do you think that that country is going to last?
It is true, it has big banks, but the banks employ a very small percentage of people.
Europe is the China for Switzerland...

Jim, I read your blog religiously, and this is one of your best posts yet. The more things collapse, the sharper your wit becomes. Times are about to become even more interesting, and with it, I expect that Kunstler commentary and CF Nation will respond in kind. Thanks for the weekly Monday wake-up call.

Before you guys go any further: what is the first step in philosophy? To define your terms. How do you define racist? Are you sure that Prog defines it the same way you do? Or are you guys talking apples and organges? Happens all the time.

Asoka or Obama would class any White who wants the best for his race as a racist - even though that's what they want for themselves. All other races want the best for their people - yet no one criticizes them for it. Only Whites are held to the standard of racial suicide as a moral imperative. You're asking, no demanding that Prog do some soul searching. Why don't you also.

By my definition of a healthy racist given above, Prog is not one. He wants all the races to merge or at least he doesn't care if they do. He sees no special value in his own race. He's simply expressing a bit of nationalism. But apparently, even that has become verboten to you liberals. Give you people an inch and you take a yard.

To complete my thought: hating other races isn't necessary - unless a state of war exists of course. Many White Racists admire East Asians for example. That might change as Asians begin to take more and more of America of course. In any case, the hate is incidental and circumstancial, the self love is the fundamental and unchanging. This is just the opposite of the ADL and SPLC definition which of course focus on the negative. Yet you guys seem to be just automatically accepting the definitions of these Jewish, Anti-White groups.

"Hey Butthead...The Asian investors are calling saying that they don't want to buy any more of our shit bonds."

"Now way Beavis! Tell 'em we'll sell some more shit to 'em at a big discount."

"They said that they don't want any more, Butthead."

"COOL! Hey Beavis...Tell 'em that we'll burn down their house if they don't buy more."

"Hey Butthead...I'm buy some from ya...."

"COOL!"

The issue we are discussing - Asoka accusing you of being a racist, or at least championing a group led by a potential racist - is the issue we have been discussing. -buckstud-

Yeah, buck, we were "discussing" it. Discussing.
And one second we are "discussing" with never a harsh word and the next second I am "a punk and a coward..."
So I'm hitting some deep pools of emotion in you, apparently, Mr. Buck Stud.

So now I'm a punk, a coward, and a racist as defined by you and asoka.
That's pretty intense.
Just because I'm opposed to further US immigration?
===============================
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Tanton
John Tanton? I must be missing something on the SPLC website about him and his connection to NumbersUSA that is so damning that it is IMPOSSIBLE to support NumbersUSA without being a punk, a coward, and a racist.

If you are asoka will extract that data from the SPLC website and cite it - I'll take a look and apologize, if that is in order.
=============
And - far more important than this racist/punk/coward/sideshow:
I'll repeat my request to you, asoka, or anyone else - - - Find us a better population control group than FAIR or NumbersUSA -

for the consideration of the CFN thread.

>open a factory employ people and produce.

Meine liebe Patrizia, wenn es nur so einfach wäre.

Produce what? The markets in the 1st and 2nd worlds are saturated with material goods. The manufacturing economy has been described as one which converts petroleum into trash (most of the manufactured goods end up in the landfill within a few years). This is why the U.S. gov't tolerates illegal immigration -- this adds consumers without whom the corporate profits would nosedive.

Regarding Switzerland, CHF will always be the reserve currency for the few, the super-rich, it's by its nature as good as gold, only more stable.
The powerful of this world need Switzerland as their private bank, and they will keep it safe. If the Swiss didn't exist, they would need to be invented by the rich for keeping their money safe. In the same sense if the Jews didn't exist, they would have to be invented to have a small group of people to blame for the ills of the world. It's kind of funny, my grandparents (1930's generation) believed that the jews were to blame for everything, although they liked all of their jews neighbors and thought it was some "other" jews, not the jews they knew, that were responsible.
My grandfather worked at a Swiss factory near Zürich during the war, they were making ball bearings and aircraft engines for the Luftwaffe.

Die Welt ist ein Irrenhaus, meinst du nicht so?

Forget FAIR, for now. I retracted it from CFN consideration after asoka objected to it.

I found NumbersUSA because the SPLC recommends them as "most reasonable." So concentrate your criticisms only on NumbersUSA, if you please.

And I'll go with something better than NumbersUSA in a heartbeat - and join it - if someone will suggest it to CFN.

Any ideas - anyone???

Mr. Kunstler said "Their guilt-o-meter is still buzzing, I'm sure."

Your German consultant is wrong, JHK. It's the opposite, many people I know feel resentful that Germans today are still blamed for what another German generation did. All nations commited a mistake at one point or another. Do you feel guilty for what your nation did to the Native Americans?
After all, Hitler was a bigger disaster to Germany than to any other country in Europe. We lost a generation of the best people, our cities were ruined, our economy destroyed, we lost half the country to a vicious overlord. And yet, we worked hard, rebuild our country, compensated the victims as mush as were possible with financial compensation. We paid the price for the mistake of another generation. We don't need to feel guilty.
We learned our lesson, but you obviously did not learn from our mistake, even Mr. Obama couldn't resist starting his own little wars.

Die Welt ist ein Irrenhaus, meinst du nicht so?

Ah, yes - and reminds of something that seems to be lost in the massive Clusterfuck underway....

Another point worth discussing - I mean assuming you believe you have any contribution to your future at all - ....

In the future, how does one make distinctions about those in power who actively created and profited from this mess, those who simply went along with it, and those who were genuinely on the "side of the common welfare?"

People wonder why the stimuls money didn´t stimulate anything.
They do not see that it produced Hyperinflation in China.
If a country doesn´t produce but just borrows money to buy things produced elsewhere, this very country gets poor and makes the other country rich.
Germany is the China of Europe.
50% of the exports go to Europe.
And Germany gets richer, while the other countries get more and more in debts.
Germany finances the debts of the PIIGS not for philantropy, but for interest.
(Nobody says that Greece was forced to austerity, they couldn´t spend for pensions and health of the people, but they had to buy war aircrafts from Germany and costly weapons.)
Just as China does.
But now they begin to realize that may be something is wrong, that may be the others won´t be able to repay the debts.
China is complaining and the Americans are "parasytes" as much as Italians and Greeks and Spanish.
Money should be the mean to exchange goods and not the goal.
You should make a living working and not gambling.
If you produced the Iphone, pods, pads in America and not in China, many people would have a job and would be able to spend in restaurants, buying things produced in America.
As it was, when America had a great economy and the stocks of a company reflected the performance of the company and not its rating.
The bubbles are born when you inflate the rating of a company and not when you buy stocks of it because its performance is good.
Switzerland is, in its own way, a parasyte, because they understand the the only ones who make a profit out of a war are the ones who do not make the war.
They store other people´s money and live on it.
Just like the plant´s parasytes.
And who is the smart, who is the stupid?

When Cash Fires Back

What is "investment" ? What is that extra cash ? It all boils down to the fact that something "good", something that is "nice" comes back to haunt us, to punish us. How is that ? You work (or corporation "works") they make money, you make money and you end up having some "extra" cash left at the end of the month. Oh, how nice. Then maybe after a few months you end up having 10,000 dollars of extra cash hanging out in the bank, because you didn't spend as much as you made, you made some profit, you simply got more cash then you needed. Oh, how nice. So now, you are ok, aren't you ? You have some extra cash that you can maybe use to do something nice with.

And here is where the problems start. What do you want to do ? Normally you would want to do something appropriate with the amount of cash you have, but since our mind is a turd, a huge pile of crap, we decide to do something that is not "appropriate" with what we have: we become stupid, we want more, we make believe we have 100,000 dollars, so we decide to buy a McMansion with debts, we buy the 30,000 car instead of the 10,000 car and so on. And then what ? Well money can't "simply stay put", it "has to do something", it has to be invested. You simply can't have that money peacefully on your bank account just relaxing for any future needs to use, no it "has to work for you", it has "to make a profit", it has to be "invested". And here is the second mistake: the idea that money automatically has to always be invested, has to make a magical return no matter what and so on.

But there are two problems with this: there are no longer any good investments to make because of market saturation, all sectors have been beaten to death, most good investments dependent on the 20th century technology have been done and finished. And second, by forcing a profit on money no matter what we create ever bigger debts someplace else, preferably government debts and so on. So the mistake is in the idea of "investment": kill this idea, kill the idea of investment, don't invest in anything, keep the cash on your bank account and that is all, don't make it do anything, don't make it work for you, it is all rip off.

Also, I was thinking of a language system in the mind where the symbol becomes the very mind that processes the other symbols, a self constructing mind and sequence of symbols, or the minds being processed by the sequence of symbols (upside down) the singularity achieved by thought, a multidimensional thought system creating a new organization of Mass Energy fooling information, etc.

I couldn´t agree more.
If ALL had to repay for the WARS they did, I guess America would need many generations to do so...

I am on the idea that History books do not tell the full truth after all, because they are written by the victors.
They ALL talk of Hitler´s crimes (and I do not want to justify him, believe me) but nobody talks of what the Russians did.
I personally was in Slovenia some years ago and so the "Foibe" and was as much shocked as I was when I visited Oswiechim in Poland.


No time left, the great human die off is in progress. All debates about what moral failures occurred in the past and to whoever’s fault is wasting time – lessoning the prospect of restricting the scale of the die off to only those places already too overpopulated to reverse the process. Yet here in America -- one of the places on earth yet retaining prospect of averting complete disaster in the die off – is narrowing its chance in self aggrandized rhapsodies of exceptionalism to the ruthless mechanics nature. Let’s quit kidding ourselves; zero population is now an absolute necessity to “Homeland Security”.

I am still of the opinion that the best investment of money is spending it in what pleases us...
That should be the goal of money.
Feeding us, helping us having a home and helping us to be happier.
Life is much shorter than what we believe and would like.

I am not confusing.
I think that the best investment is in something that can make you happy.
Investment=something that pays a profit.
What better profit than personal happiness?

You asked:

In the future, how does one make distinctions about those in power who actively created and profited from this mess, those who simply went along with it, and those who were genuinely on the "side of the common welfare?"

Well, that's quite the softball question. That's easy. The latter group will be the ones being discredited and destroyed, at first economically and then perhaps eventually, en masse... physically.

Because where humanity is concerned there really is nothing new under the sun and everything one needs to know about the Great Sweeps of History and the workings of affairs at the Highest Royal Aristocratic Levels, one has already learned in the mudpuddles and sandboxes of childhood by age seven.

No matter how much hypercomplexity is laid over it, how much brilliantly constructed mass psychology and deception, or how much hyper-sophist laywers' prattle to justify the usual human configuration of the rich pulling the strings on the ignorant and gullible while treating the bottom 90% of humanity like oxen, that is the one constant to understanding the bigger picture of human history.

Humanity we are an infantile species on almost every level...which is why we are drowning in our crib in our own chemical and nuclear feces.

Our only hope was/is to somehow figure a way to evolve past that in much fast than biological-evolutionary timescale, since our alterations to the environment and ecology are rushing at us at the same sped-up timescale.

Epic fail seems to tepid a word to describe the pending "done-deal" outcome.

But, to the original question...you will be able to look for the latter group of your description those who were genuinely on the "side of the common welfare" in many different places, such as

Fatherland Criminal Correction Facilities

Fatherland Security Holding Areas

Black Prison Sites run be the Military-Intelligence Corporation in foreign lands.

and, of course...

The Exxon/NBC/Comcast Happy Time Fun Twinks Economic Relocation and Sanctuary Zones brought to you by Xe, formerly Blackwater, and where the fun never stops...coming SOON to a economically depressed FUN ZONE near YOU!

Prog,

I was trying to lend a hand. Your feigned ignorance and avoidance of the issue was becoming very embarrassing. All anyone has to do is a few minute search to realize that the new group you started promoting is open to the same criticism that spurred you to abandon the first group you promoted. And since you did abandon the first group one can only presume you considered the criticism valid. And when Asoka raised the issue again,you responded with a profanity laced tirade and continued to avoid the main criticism: is the leader of the group you're promoting a racist? Seemingly, losing another round of debate is more unpalatable to you than a simple search for the possibility of truth.

Prog, it took a few seconds to pull up this link from the Southern Poverty Law Center - the very organization whose recommendations you were citing - concerning the individual in question:

http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-files/profiles/john-tanton

Along the vein of Vlad Krantz post, I am unwilling to label the person in question a racist simply because the SPLC asserts it so based on a few paragraphs of text. On the other hand, it does read like a person that Vlad Krantz himself might like to champion.

July 2011: Global oil supply = 88.33 million barrels a day

June 2011: Global oil supply = 87.53 million barrels a day

That is a July increase of 800,000 barrels a day over June 2011. 88 is bigger than 87.

Tripp said "peak oil" happened in 2005 or 2007 (he changes the dates).

The fact that supply has INCREASED would indicate peak oil has not yet been reached.

If we had reached peak oil, we would never again see an increase in supply. Supply would be going down month after month, in a never ending contraction of oil supply. In no month would the global supply number be bigger than the previous month. Instead, Saudi Arabia, Angola and Kuwait have all considerably increased their supply.

July's 88+ million is bigger than June's 87+ million.

Peak oil is yet to happen.

I seem to recall seeing a recent post by you saying something to the effect that, if the Corporate Media drags out the nonsensical debt discussion into a weeks-long neverending story, then you may finally start to cast off the blinders of Coincidence Theory.

You are noticing now for yourself how transparent the Phony Reality TV Show is becoming every day he in this grotesque and clincally insane Empire in rapid decline.

The bottom line, progorcons, is that you are literally inches away from being able to become something of a short-term prophet. You just accurately framed what will almost certainly be the near future, regarding Corporate Media flogging the debt story like a Democratic Blow Job in your "I will start to disbelieve Coincience Theory if it happens like that" statement.

Guess what, it's gonna happen EXACTLY like that. 95% probability. Maybe higher.

I am warning you now, this is not a skill that can make you money. In fact, it is a skill that will more likely get you beaten and killed...doubly so in the Old Confederacy, where hurting people you disagree with, especially liberals and minorities, is a deeply held tradition going back to the original Klan days and even before with the many many beatings and tar & featherings, or hosswhippings of those Liberal Hippie Quaker Yankee Satanic Abolitionists.

Bet those spinelss soft-hearted evil Liberal do-gooders Quaked when they felt the firm hand of Confederate Christian Neoconservative Justice on their backs, didn't they?

So, think twice, friend progorcons, before you join me and the Liberal Intellectuals of Weimar 1931 on the outside.

You'll be straying outside the narrow walls of Acceptable Dialog in our nation drowning in RW political correctness and intimidation, just as Weimar 1931 did.

Think twice about speaking openly to your fellow Munichers...I mean Georgians, especially the very mean, ignorant RW Brownshirt/Teabaggers. You know who I mean.

Sure, you would stand up to them in a "fair one", but as we all know, the RW Authoritarian Klan Hannidiot Type doesn't believe in a standup fair fight, 'cause fairness and rules are for libtards and losers.

Hell, in a nation so deluded and lunatic, that can't even tell the difference between Obama's Reagan Republicanism and Stalin's Communism, you probably have already been noted by the local Teabags against their "1933 Germany" moment, when their sick murderous barbarians' fantasies come to life.

(HINT: "Don't Tread on Me" Flags waving outside someone's home are much like swastikas in 1931 Weimar - RW Authoritarian Followers letting you know who is going to be informing on you to the American Gestapo...or night riding over your libtard ass...or whatever it's going to be this time around)

It's your last chance to turn back, progorcons. Stop embracing Conventional Wisdom at your own peril. Start acknowledging the criminal conspiracies occur at ALL levels of society, instead of just the bottom 99% of society, and get ready to be viewed askew by some of the weakest-minded, slavish and most cowardly people that ever lived, we 21st Century Americans, who have pretty fully disproved 500 years of Liberalism, including our own founding myths.

As always, watch out for Teabagger Browshirts. They are your modern Klansmen, and will seek the old ways for dealing with you libtards and weirdos as soon as they are able to get away with it - 1960s Klansmen Sheriff's Department-style.

I wake again to more good news. A very lage dairy farm in our area, western Pennsylvania, (MARBARGER DAIRY)has a Marcellus Drill Rig about to start drilling on their pasture land. I see those black and white cows just licking up those green blades of fracking fluid soaked grass full of cancer causing chemicals. In addition, many of our farmers' market growers are leasing to gas companies. What's going to happen to our food supply?
All over the State of Pennsylvania we are seeing drill rigs. My thoughts of eating venison from our local forest and fish from our local streams is now clouded by the thoughts of the poision that VP Cheney had exempted from the Clean Air and Water Act of 2005.
What the hell is wrong with this Country?
DRINK MILK?????

..."and, of course...

The Exxon/NBC/Comcast Happy Time Fun Twinks Economic Relocation and Sanctuary Zones brought to you by Xe, formerly Blackwater, and where the fun never stops...coming SOON to a economically depressed FUN ZONE near YOU!" -HC 1863

(where to find advocates for the commonweal in future)

Hey! Will fun make us free?
If so, I'm IN like Flynn, dudes! Where's my gadgetry and various corn-based snacks? I sure hope the recliners will be comfy.

Who are you going to appeal to?
What the frackers are doing is all nice and legal-like and everybody that needs greasin' has been greased.
What do you think you should do when someone fucks with your [collective] water supply?

Somebody is having trouble tying actions to consequences. They'd better hope they can shelter within the castle walls should [enough of] the peasants figure out who's killing them off.

(Hint: It only takes about 15%; that's why the distraction is so necessary and desperate in aspect. "Ya gotta keep 'em separated...")

Well, ignorance is bliss......most people who say, I'll freeze this Winter unless we permit the gas industry to drill and frack are just plain idiots. I'm no a tree hugger. I don't have a farm or a wood pile to depend upon. I have public sewage and public water.
One of the problems in this Country is the fact that people believe the bullshit that they see on television.
Don't be a fool........most of the gas produced by Marcellus drilling will go overseas. Big gas companies are bundling leases and selling the leases to China and Europe.
We will be left with a landscape that will be destroyed. In Carmichaels, PA the Mon River brine levels from drilling was so high that the peoople were taken off the public water supply. Say what you want, Marcellus Gas drilling is dangerous to the environment.
When they come up with a safe way to dril.......then I'll say......drill baby drill.
Get off your ass and read before you make stupid ass statements.

Never put it all in one basket!
What about selling the units and buying a farm
or a house in the countryside?

From the NY Times, of all places!
(I s'pose they've got to try and keep up the appearance that they actually care about the "little people" who read their rag.)

Anyhoo, pretty funny strip:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/07/30/opinion/sunday/20110807_McFadden_Cartoon.html

In a forthcoming peer-reviewed study at the American Journal of Public Health, Nisbet and his co-authors find that 76% of people in a recent survey believe oil prices are either “very likely” or “somewhat likely” to triple in the next five years. A dramatic spike in oil prices is a commonly recognized outcome of peak petroleum.

Even more telling is that 69% of respondents believe a sharp rise in oil prices would be either “very harmful” (44%) or “somewhat harmful” (25%) to the health of Americans. According to the survey, strong conservatives were the most sensitive to these possible risks, with 53% believing that a spike in oil prices would be “very harmful” to human health. Similarly, in a separate analysis of the data, those who were strongly “dismissive” of climate change (52%) were the most likely of any subgroup to associate a sharp spike in oil prices with a negative impact on public health.

According to Nisbet and his co-authors, this creates a challenge and an opportunity for the environmental and public health communities. Peak oil and energy prices are often talked about in terms of economic and environmental impact, but rarely as a public health concern. Nisbet argues that his findings show reason to reframe the debate.

“These findings suggest that a broad cross-section of Americans may be ready to engage in dialogue about ways to manage the health risks that experts associate with peak petroleum,” said Nisbet. “Peak petroleum may not currently be a part of the public health portfolio, but we need to start the planning process.”

http://bigthink.com/ideas/39577

As dale and Dolan showed us week -
there is no real way to defend against this charge - without "protesting too much."
---------------------------------------
I never called Dolan a racist, I suggested that, to me, some of his comments showed questionable tendencies. We actually agree on the issue of immigration levels being too high. What I followed up with is, it's important whether you use an issue like "english only", as a cover for racism or you use it because you genuinely looked at the issue and have valid reasons to support it. A lot of people don't look that deeply into their motivation, I was just suggesting it makes sense to question your own thoughts and emotions.

Buck, how is what tanton believes any different than what la raza or the black panthers believe? The only difference I see is how those that shape the debate on race cover it. Tanton is a racist but La Raza is a legitimate organization promoting hispanic civilization. That does not seem fair to me. What do you think?

All other races want the best for their people - yet no one criticizes them for it. Only Whites are held to the standard of racial suicide as a moral imperative.
--------------------------------------
What a load of apologist craptrap. I suppose Hitler just "wished the best for the Aryans" but secretly admired the Jews? I can't tell if you've sold yourself on this nonsense to alleviate your justifiable guilt, or you're just trying to pull the wool over the eyes of everyone here and put a pretty face on racism. "Yeah....I'm just "for" you, not against anyone else. Riiiight......

Your kind of thinking always leads eventually to violence against others, it's built into the premise. It's a virus the human race has been all to suseptible to, and you're just a carrier.

You want to know what the end result of racism is? Look at Nazi Germany, look at Norway a couple of weeks ago, look at Serbia in the 90s, look at the American South before 1960.....that's how it ends.....that's the ultimate terminus for racial exclusivity.

Dale, you are talking about human nature. One group is always going to dominate another. Moral relativism or not it is a biologically hard wired fact. Unchecked you get hitler. With no dominate group you get struggle and warfare until one group triumphs. Check out the Wisconsin state fair last week to see who is winning currently. or maybe London this week.

Hilarious.

I s'pose they've got to try and keep up the appearance that they actually care about the "little people" who read their rag. - Ozone

Not a bad take on it.

In the interest of being a little more light hearted:

The Monty Python cheese shop sketch-yes, we have no cheese - this one is a pretty good analogy of the European fiscal shop, or what's left of it.

For America and its' faux markets? how about the Dead Parrot sketch?

Really? You actually "see" that? Why not drop a dime to contact one of about a million different regulatory agencies if you actually "see" that?
=================

Come on Tootsie, use your noodle and stop playing dumb. Here is what Army said (note the bolded words):

(MARBARGER DAIRY) has a Marcellus Drill Rig about to start drilling on their pasture land.

Then he said:

I see those black and white cows just licking up those green blades of fracking fluid soaked grass full of cancer causing chemicals.

Obviously, since they hadn't yet started drilling his next sentence should clearly be understood to mean "I forsee those black and white cows..."

This is a common manner of speech just like a month ago when around July 8th you were getting a haircut and you told the barber "I see Ford going from $13 to $25 in a year" so I'll be buying tomorrow." (Good luck wit dat, BTW.)

Many of the points you make in your comments are good enough that you don't need to stoop to twisting people's words. Why do you do that shit?

Suggestion to AMR,

Last night just after midnight you posted 2 comments to last week's thread. My guess is not many will see them there so I would re-post them to this week's thread. I liked what you said to Obtusela.

Bossier,

I am simply not up on the current manifesto of La Raza, but back in the late sixties and seventies I knew quite a few people following Corky Gonzales - he of "I Am Joaquin " fame - was more familia with the movement. In short, to answer your question, one group of people were legitimate victims of systemic discrimination; the other, in fear of losing their dominant status on the top-rung of the societal ladder. Moreover, is it not uncommon to see the formerly oppressed and disenfranchised beat the drums of ethnic pride in order to refurbish a sense of positive group identity ?

I suppose we're discussing these issues because in the context of TLE people assume that racial galvanization/animosity is a given. Perhaps. But in the here and now I simply have not experienced much racial tension and I live in an area of the country which has a very large Mexican population. In fact, the dominant culture influence remains American - have you watched Telemundo or other similar Mexican channels recently? A majority of the programs are American knock-offs, much to the chagrin of a multi-cultural fan such as myself.

So you're saying that Blacks don't want the best for Blacks? Or Hispanics don't want the best for Hispanics? Don't be such a fool, fool. It's natural - only Whites are forced to be unnatural by creeps like you who hate their own people. Face it Dale: your overriding passion is to be better than others. And your hatred of your own race is a means towards this end - and one rewarded by the State. Don't put on airs - you're bought and paid for. You sold out early on - probably never any question or conflict. As the old saying goes, you know which side you bread is buttered on. That I can at least understand but to then feel suprerior because of your "heroic" "choice" is sickening.

Many White Nationalists do admire the Jews. We simply demand what they grant themselves and deny us: the rights of existence and self determination.

And you think the innundating America and the West with alien, hostile peoples (the Mexicans loathe us) is a recipe for peace? Amazing. How amazing it must be to know so much that isn't true. Do you ever listen to yourself? Call it mindfullness. Once you've heard yourself, use your faculty of discrimination (buddhi) to analyze the data. It's all crap, pure ideology.

PudPud and his greedy relatives are my sworn enemies.
This isn't about helping friends, neighbors and fellow countrymen to keep warm; this is about money.
Fucking parasites and users.

Did you admire Standard and Poor's sly, Friday night downgrade of the United States Treasury bond rating? - Mr K

From S&P it was hilarious. It was like listening to the Whore of Babylon, Babylon the Great, the Mother of Prostitutes and Abominations of the Earth, preach chastity.

Last night I saw a trio of famous economists on the telly telling us what ought to be done. You know what one said? The Fed should lower interest rates. The mind reels.

Oh and can you define racism? Or do you want to keep it vague so you can keep beating up on other Whites - just so you can feel hip and so, so, so very art school superior?

The motto of La Raza: For our Race everything, and for other races nothing.

One more thing. Back in the day the Chicano movement was a lot more militant. Now I see former activists with American flags on their porches because many of their relatives are serving in the U.S. military. Even more confounding, not a few of them have adapted very conservative political ideologies - perhaps it is the influence of Catholicism winning out? And to add yet another layer of subtlety into the mix, many recent arrivals from Mexico do not want to be associated with the Chicano movement in any shape, manner, or form.

"the Mexicans loathe us"

NO, Vlad, by and large, they do not. That's your big, wrong assumption. You project hatred and anger onto other people who generally do not have feelings like yours.

You think they come here because they hate us? I deal with Mexican people all the time, and they are just as polite and friendly as anyone else. If they talk about me or my ethnicity behind my back, in some sense, I don't really care.

You can't take some militant organization like La Raza and project its non-mainstream views onto millions of people. It is like saying that all white people follow the philosophy of the KKK.

Pro,

For what it's worth I don't think Dolan is a racist and I don't think he was protesting too much. I think he was describing reality. Our family/tribe also has people from a variety of ethnic, racial, religious backgrounds. Like I said in previous posts human libido is an unstoppable force.

Just in case anybody is interested, linked below is Corky Gonzales poem "I Am Joaquin".

http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/latinos/joaquin.htm

I think if you took a survey of Mexican-Americans, here both illegally and legally, asking them whether they would want the southwestern US to become part of Mexico, the majority would answer "no." Because most come here to get away from that country and its problems, not to turn the US into the country they left. Sure, they bring their language and culture like most immigrants, in addition to problems like gangs and crime. But that doesn't mean that they want Arizona annexed onto Ole Mehico.

Early this morning I sent a letter to Joe Scarborough and some other esteemed members of our fourth estate:

As usual, the fourth estate who are supposed to keep the citizenry informed have bungled the job, leaving the real complexity and facts in the dark. I believe the omissions are truncating our dialog in this country. The American people should be told how their tax money is spent and what else could be on the table for cuts.

It's not just a matter of "entitlements" that we all pay for with every paycheck and taxes rates. That, indeed is a very limited discussion.

It's more a matter of global corporatism vs. sovereignty. Keynesianism vs neoliberalism a la Milton Friedman and Ayn Rand, a system that was established in this economy since Reagan's supply-side-free markets, destroying this country and it's middle class.

This global intellectual construct seeks to destroy manufacturing in this country which produces real tangible wealth in the hands of millions in favor of monetarism working only for a select few. The destruction of real wealth has an exponential effect on all business including the service sector as opportunity dries up.

Let's start with the privatized security and military contractors who are more expensive than government would have been for the same functions. They are completely dependent upon tax-payer money, yet because they are private companies the Right wing of this country doesn't utter a peep. It doesn't mean they don't get a huge helping of our money and it should be scrutinized as yet another area to be cut. They have done virtually nothing to protect us, note the silly attempts at terrorism here like the underwear bomber etc.

Many of these are no-bid contractors which means you don't get the lowest price for the work. The tax payers if they understood this would not be pleased!

In a Dana Priest article last summer she said the government could not say exactly how much money these private security firms, formed after 911 are getting.

I ask you, how is it possible that the government does not have an accounting for this? It's got to be deliberate, since they don't want the public to know. That's one area that we could cut big-time and we won't be missing anything.

The second issue is that the right wing-We the real Americans don't want to pay taxes. They should understand that central, state and local governments need revenue to run on. Services don't get done for free.

That's why they are resorting to desperate ways to generate money:
The public infrastructure of this country is being sold out to foreign concerns. I keep asking if they knew their country was on a fire sale, would they still not want to pay taxes or demand that the super wealthy do.

From China, who is buying land outside Toledo, Oh, and will build a city near Boise Id., to Sovereign Wealth funds where wealthy Arabs from Abu Dhabi are buying risk averse funds to glean a specific amount of gain each year for 80 years, giving the states a paltry few Billion that doesn't last very long. The most important thing to note is that we lose our freedom to build alternative public transportation and street fares that get in the way of profits. The state in these instances would have to pay the investors what they expect to make!!

Of course another issue not discussed is globalism and what it means for us as a sovereign nation. Right now, our transnationals want the imbalance of trade between currencies and a weak dollar with low interest rates, as they make more in the differential on overseas business.

Now the idea of basic Capitalism to protect barriers to enter have been thrown out the window. We're stuck with TBTF international banks and transnationals who are making more than they ever imagined. We will start to see the futile QE3 start after this latest financial debacle. Government should have exercised already established laws like the Sherman anti-trust laws and Glass-Steagall. They should have made a priority to keep a balance between the needs of the citizenry of a nation state and the corporations that could have added more value to the state.

What a shame these issues have been left out of the debate.

Buck,
There is the real world, and there is debate on CFN.
In the real world, FAIR is a respectable organization dedicated to reduction of immigration into the US. I joined FAIR months ago, and continue to send them contributions.

Also, in the real world, NumbersUSA is a respectable organization dedicated to the reduction of immigration into the US. And NumbersUSA has the blessing of the SPLC as the "most reasoned" of the national immigration reduction groups. Logically, that should exempt NumbersUSA from charges of racism.

And then there is CFN:
"And when Asoka raised the issue again, you responded with a profanity laced tirade and continued to avoid the main criticism: is the leader of the group you're promoting a racist?"
-Buck-


Tanton's views are being labeled "racist" by an organization (SPLC) that is not party to this debate on CFN - based on some positions he expressed in the 1990's. And Tanton is not the LEADER of FAIR, anyway - and hasn't been for years.

But because Tanton MIGHT have expressed a racist view two decades ago, everything he touches is FOREVER tainted - and now, here on CFN I am a punk, a coward, and a racist for promoting a different group, barely affiliated with Tanton.

Tanton's a distractor, a smokescreen.

Let's try to talk about the bigger issue.

Are all attempts to limit immigration into the United States evidence of racism?
*Asoka answers yes, Buck - how about you?

Are Dale, BustinJ, and BeanTownBill, all racists along with me?

Are they also punks and cowards?
Tell us what you really think, Buck.


The reason I posted the comments on last week's thread was because I didn't want to clutter up this week's thread with material related to last week's. I think I'll just leave it in place and not waste the internets by reposting. Thanks for the plug and for seconding my attempt to refute conspiratorial nuttery, though.

Prog,

I would never call you a punk and coward for whatever beliefs or positions you hold. It's the misrepresenting and misdirection that is the problem . For example: you link to a Wikipedia article when the far more damaging SPLC link was just as readily available. So let's not drag others into the fray in order to shore up your own sense of moral veracity, OK punk?

"For what it's worth I don't think Dolan is a racist and I don't think he was protesting too much." -cash-

Cash, I don't think so either. But the fact is that it's impossible to defend yourself against a charge of racism - especially in a forum like this.

That's why asoka's use of the term against me pisses me off so much. I'm trying to have a debate about immigration and he's running around:
"You're prejudiced against me!"
"You're a racist." "You're a racist!"

I don't know, Cash. Last night Q said that "racist" was just another word, like "liberal," or "asshat."

I disagree.

have you watched Telemundo or other similar Mexican channels recently?

------------

Now that is funny! You are asking a bunch of white monolingual anti-immigrant CFNers this question... I share your disappointment about the domination of white cultural forms, even on TeleMundo, even as whites become a demographic minority.

I still can't figure out why you seem so concerned about what some random, anonymous person says about you on the internet.

THat is an interesting and surprising observation about telemundo. My next door business neighbor is hispanic from some where north of Monterey. He is afraid to visit back in Mexico because of violence. This summer he vacationed in Branson MO instead. Even I was chagrined at that. While I have many positively great experiences with hispanics, it seems natural to not want a foreign culture dominate my native culture. And like prog/con, I think overpopulation and quality of life are legitimate issues to severely limit immigration. Mexico vigorously controls its souther border. Why is that OK but it not OK for the U.S.?

My problem with the term "racist" is that common usage has broadened its definition to an unreasonable degree. It now seems to encompass Klan members and people who just make a few negative observations on the internet (whether true or untrue).

Using the term has become a way of silencing others in a debate by stereotyping them into a negative category.

Kind of ironic, if you think about it...

Logistically speaking, controlling the tiny bit of Mexico that borders Central America is cake compared to securing the US-Mexican border.

Plus, how many people try to illegally cross from Guatamala and Belize into Southern Mexico? Methinks not too many.

i do see your point about la raza. The difference being that there is no stigma to being a member of La Raza or mecha. many mainstream hispanic leaders have been members.

Vlad, when La Raza is mentioned, it speaks of the fact that hispanic children can have blue or brown eyes, thin or wide eyes, pale skin or the darkest skin. The hair may vary from kinky to straight. Hispanics dance to the rhythms of many nations. La Raza is the first unique creation of the colonial Americas. It is about inclusion, not exclusion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Tanton

Buck - if you had troubled to look - there's a section in wiki devoted to the SPLC opinion of Tanton. And here's how a nation gets clusterf*cked. Just take what's happening to me and you - and write it across the US as we head out into the future of economic troubles and resource scarcities.

Racist. Punk. Coward. Punk.
Harsh words, to my ears - now impossible to retract.

From the wiki entry -
"FAIR, CIS and NumbersUSA are all part of a network of restrictionist organizations conceived and created by John Tanton, the “puppeteer” of the nativist movement and a man with deep racist roots. As the first article in this report shows, Tanton has for decades been at the heart of the white nationalist scene. He has met with leading white supremacists, promoted anti-Semitic ideas, and associated closely with the leaders of a eugenicist foundation once described by a leading newspaper as a “neo-Nazi organization.” He has made a series of racist statements about Latinos and worried that they were outbreeding whites. At one point, he wrote candidly that to maintain American culture, “a European-American majority” is required...." -wikipedia-

Also, I'm not sure where you get the impression that the US doesn't at least TRY to control the border. Every major road out of Mexico into the US has a customs checkpoint (every road?). Motion sensors, drones, and other high tech equipment are used to catch those entering illegally. There are thousands of armed Border Patrol agents on patrol, and over a thousand were added by Obama recently. And illegal crossings are way down from 5 years ago now.

To make the border truly secure would require fortifications like the Berlin Wall or the barriers between Israel and the Gaza Strip. Even then, people still find a way.

The #1 best way to control illegal immigration is to make it difficult for people to hire them. Social security fraud is rampant. Basically, if someone uses your number on their I9, it becomes your personal responsibility to deal with it. You have to prove that you're you! I had a friend whose SSN was being used illegally, and he had to go through hell and highwater to get anyone to pay attention to him in law enforcement. This type of identity theft is a huge problem. Someone can ruin your credit or worse simply by putting in your SSN on various documents.

Is it really that hard to prevent? Just look for multiple uses of the same SSN under different names or usage of the SSN of a dead person and flag that number for investigation. The government seems amazingly behind and clueless on this issue.

"Racist. Punk. Coward. Punk. Harsh words, to my ears - now impossible to retract."

It's the internet, dude. You need to put on your flame retardant underpants.

Another problem with focusing solely on "the border" is that people can obtain legitimate entry documents, like a short term visa. Once in the country, they can simply overstay the visa. But they actually entered legally.

To me, internal controls would be a far more effective way of discouraging people from staying here illegally. And right now, these are quite lax.

It's a word that comes with an awful lot of freight. The R bomb is a favourite weapon of liberals that want to shut up anybody with views that don't square with theirs. Especially on issues of immigration, multiculturalism, crime. You know, the co-called "hot button" issues that liberals love to portray as the province of the uneducated and uncultured. You've seen it. Libs draw themselves up to a great height and affect an attitude of towering professorial superiority: you just aren't on our level little man. Now run along and go back to your hockey (or nascar) and beer and nachos and leave the intellectual heavy lifting to your betters. As far as Asoka goes do what I do: scroll past. What finally did it for me was the kick in the teeth he gave Lewis Lucan. And never mind the dishonest portrayals of posts that were clear in meaning and intent. Which is what it seems he's doing to you (correct me if I'm wrong).

Just like the L word is your favorite way of stereotyping other people with different political views from yours, eh, Cash? ;-)

"I still can't figure out why you seem so concerned about what some random, anonymous person says about you on the internet." -turkle-

"Using the term has become a way of silencing others in a debate by stereotyping them into a negative category."
-turkle-

You answered your own question, Turk.
Asoka is an absolute master at this, and I despise him for the way he twists, spins, and silences CFN debate.
Buck seems to like it, though.

Hey, I resent that stereotype. Liberals like hockey, nachos, and beer, too!

"What a load of apologist craptrap."

It appears that Q is too busy assisting with the CFN "Education of Progressor" soon to be released video so I will handle this minor faux pas:

craptrap is not a word claptrap is a word

SNAFU

The SPLC is Jewish. Jews have lead the immigration debacle - Kennedy was just their front man. Using them as an authority on this issue is simply crazy.

The Jews prospered here but evidenly it wasn't enough. They had to rule or destroy our Society. They don't seem to be able to decide which or even tell the difference perhaps. So like Samson they are pulling down the pillars of the Temple. But don't they realize they will be crushed when it comes down?


The must hate us more than they love themseles.

Here in the US, the arrogance and narrow-mindedness of conservatives is breathtaking. You've got Sarah Palin, (former) darling of the Repubes and the Tea Party, talking about who is and isn't a "real American." Bush said that atheists were not part of his America. They are constantly referring to other Americans in derogatory terms like leeches, parasites, free-loaders, etc. I don't see how making a crack or two about beer and NASCAR comes even close to that kind of rhetoric.

Television and radio personalities like Limbaugh, Hannity, and O'reilly enforce their conservative code from the high cabal and either shout down or turn off the mics of those who disagree with them. O'reilly must have interuppted the President of the US in his interview about 30 times. What breathtaking arrogance and rudeness! If a liberal commentator (any commentator really) had done the same to a Republican, he would have been skewered.

Do you need more examples?

So I don't know where you get off characterizing the liberals as the smug, superior ones. Here in the US, it is generally the opposite, or at least your typical liberal does not come close to most conservatives in this dismissive attitude.

Could this type of dismissal and stereotyping of political opponents just be a general characteristic of the modern political landscape rather than something in which only the liberals partake?

Oh, and BTW, it is a fact that self-identified liberals are better informed and educated than self-profesesed conservatives, based on the surveys I've seen.

Caveat: Perhaps it is a bit different in Canadia, which I suspect is the case.

The L word is a convenient enough handle especially as liberals themselves use it.

Seeing as liberals aren't shy about slander I make it a policy to return hell in full and with interest. And besides, don't Christians say it's better to give than to receive? So I give.

"Wait and see what they do when they get it."

It isn't going to happen, Vlady. They are only 10% of the population.

"I think overpopulation and quality of life are legitimate issues to severely limit immigration. Mexico vigorously controls its souther border."
-bossier, to turkle-

Turkle - you're right about internal controls as being the best way to go. (SSN's, etc) Of course, the National Chamber of Commerce and La Raza also oppose these sensible ideas, as well.

And Bossier mentions TOTAL immigration. That's far more important than ILLEGAL immigration, and with fewer "racist" overtones.

Also, Turk - you're lumping a bunch of nationalities together and calling them "Mexican."

We had lots of Guatemalans in Georgia until recently. It seems likely that they were allowed transit INTO Mexico, through Mexico, and into the US, by some mechanism involving Government or "coyotes," or both.

And don't call a Guatemalan, or a Honduran, or a Colombian, or whatever? - "Mexican," or you might have a fight on your hands.

=================
"The Education of Prog." That's funny, SNAFU.

I'm working on "The Story of Q."
It is based on "The Story of O."

>the Mexicans loathe us

Hmm, what do you mean? 100% of the Mexicans loathe 100% of us? 75%? Maybe 20%? OK, I'll buy the 20% figure for the sake of the discussion, there are haters in every race. So, do the 20% of the Mexicans hate maybe 30% of "us"? That's OK, 30% of us could be assholes. So I don't see a real problem here, Vlad?

The problem is, Vlad, when you make a blanket statement "Mexicans hate us" or "Blacks are criminals" or "Jews run the world" -- that's meaningless. Once you said that you dated a jewish woman whose father, also a jew, did NOT support Israel (or thought Israel was a bad idea, or some such thing). So, not ALL jews are nuts about Israel then? That's been my experience also, many jews I know have a dim view of Israel. On the other hand, some conservative Christians I know voice a bizarre support for Israel.

Your wild generalizations are nonsense, and they hurt your credibility. You make some good points now and then, and then you make yourself look like a Dummkopf.

You also said "Jews. We simply demand what they grant themselves and deny us: the rights of existence". Are you nuts?

It's regrettable that you make yourself look like a paranoid fool, cause some of what you say is good and true, but folks don't take you seriously because of the other crap you say.

It's a shibboleth - a fear word like "witch". Define it and it loses all it's power - which is why you people refuse to do so even though you use it endlessly. Because once defined it simply means putting your own people first - which everyone does. Whites are then seen as not the most racist people in the world but the least - stupidly so, to their own detriment.

There is a negative kind of racism which is hating other people needlessly. The huge Black riots in London are a good example of this as is the attacks at the Wisconsin Fair.

Last night Q said that "racist" was just another word, like "liberal," or "asshat."
=================

I guess it was bound to happen sooner or later ... the first signs of Alzheimer's ... I'll be damned if I can remember saying any such thing. Will somebody help me out here. What was the date and time I said this^.

make that:

...here? What was the date and time I said this^?


From what I can tell of how you think, anyone who strongly diagrees with you on a political topic becomes a "liberal" in your mind. Now isn't that convenient? Then you can load up all your typical ammo and fire away without even having to think about the issue being debated.

"Seeing as liberals aren't shy about slander"

Oh, please! What BS. The liberals are NOT the ones who are all about insults, not by a long shot. Conservatives have an entire network devoted to demeaning and insulting their opponents in the US and masquerading it as news. Rabid arch-conservative creep Rupert Murdoch owns the most powerful media conglomerate in the world. Fox News, an absurdly partisan station whose commentators constantly demean Democrats and liberals, has many (most?) of the top-rated news programs on television.

And you've got the balls to point your finger at the other side for being the ones who are quick to use insults and personal attacks. What a joke.

"Because once defined it simply means putting your own people first"

No, I don't think that is the original meaning of the term, Vlad. It has more to do with thinking that your race is innately superior to others, to the degree that your race has the "right" to rule over others or even exterminate them. From this attitude of superiority, you get genocide, eugenics, legalized racial discrimination, etc. The prototypical racist group in (fairly) recent history was the Nazis. If putting your own people first equates, in your mind, to killing 7 million or more others for having a different ethnicity, I would be loathe to call that a good thing or something that "everyone" does.

Attitudes like yours are simply non-functional in modern-day America, which, like it or not, is an incredibly diverse country, racially and culturally, and becoming more so all the time. Was it always this way? Perhaps not, but it is now. So deal with it.

craptrap."

It appears that Q is too busy assisting with the CFN "Education of Progressor"
===============

Lest you think I've fallen asleep at the switch...be advised I saw "craptrap" and considered saying something and then I thought, maybe he used "crap" as an emphasizer.

Like any true believer, Vlad is an absolutist. He doesn't do grey.

Oh, gee, I must have been hallicinating when I saw all those white rioters being arrested in the news photographs.

Carry on.

You can say what you like about your jackass conservatives and you'll get no objection from me. Ours are jackasses but in different ways.

Oh, and BTW, it is a fact that self-identified liberals are better informed and educated than self-profesesed conservatives, based on the surveys I've seen. - Turk

IMO you need to be more skeptical of surveys which can be fucked with six ways to Sunday. In my own personal experience Canuck liberals are laughably ignorant not only of the wider world but of their own country. From what I've seen they know pretty much nothing of its history or regional attitudes and interests. They're not remotely as knowledgable as they think they are. And I suspect the same is true of US liberals.

If Liberals were merely know-nothings that would be one thing. But they compound their insufferability with monumental arrogance and not only that but bigotry esp. towards Canucks living west of Ontario. Anyone not born and bred in the Toronto/Ottawa/Montreal triangle is a hayseed and an object of condescension. Libs know how to put on airs and that's about all. And the only country they hate worse than Canada is the USA.

One thing that we do well in this country is to periodically wreck political parties. We just did a number on the corrosive and nation destroying Liberal Party of Canada. Our federal parliament has 308 seats. The Libs went from 77 to 34. One more step over the cliff and none too soon.

The replacement for the Liberals as Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition? The socialist NDP. Silly and absurd for sure but at least well meaning. A good day for Canada. I'll take the NDP any day over the Libs.

There are some parallels between conservatism and liberalism in the US and Canada but I wouldn't take the comparisons too far. Our respective countries have very different politics.

What a great jobs program a couple hundred thousand moderately armed border patrol agents would make. Or perhaps bring at least half of our overseas deployed troops home to do the job. One effort with multiple results.

And you've got the balls to point your finger at the other side for being the ones who are quick to use insults and personal attacks. What a joke. - turk

Have you lived here? If not then you haven't seen the huge damage Liberals have done to it by means of a torrent of slander and insult directed towards the West. In this last election we undid some of the damage when Ontario and the West made common cause. And not a minute too soon.

"....in the Old Confederacy, where hurting people you disagree with, especially liberals and minorities, is a deeply held tradition going back to the original Klan days and even before with the many many beatings and tar & featherings, or hosswhippings of those Liberal Hippie...."
-Hancock1863-

Hey Hancock! Good to have you back, man.
And thanks for the cautionary "well-wishes" in the post referenced above. Being a native Southerner - and also being a "Liberal Hippie" is not as frightening, to me at least, as you make it sound.

A little review - you may have heard this from last year on CFN, but it may help Buck understand my frame of reference on race and "racism."

I was born in the mid-50's in segregated Georgia, in a little town south of the (tiny) Atlanta airport. I was a completely unquestioning White Supremacist by birthright. Through the tumultuous '60's and '70's, I fought my OWN racism and that of others - and finally progressed beyond my own racism.

When I was a child, though, a very close family friend lived right across our little street. The husband was Chairman of our local Board of Education. He was a small man, progressive by today's standards, apparently with the heart of a lion.
I awakened, more than once as a child, from sleep - to the sounds of shouts and squealing tires - and the sight of a Cross burning on this man's yard. That is a sight that strikes deep.

I hate God Damned racists.

So - when someone (asoka, now apparently Buck) uses the word "racist" against me as casually as they would use the word "fucktard" or "asshat,"

I will eventually begin to hate them, too.

Racism - whether white, brown, black, or yellow - must be called out and fought.

================
As regards conspiracy, HC - I like your thing about the sandbox, that's a nice analogy.

So I'm listening. Now you've got to keep posting.
hehe ;-)

The modern West was founded upon a traditional of liberalism. The Founding Fathers of the US were all liberals of their day. Your viewpoint that conservatives or conservatism are the guardians of Western culture is pretty absurd.

"Our respective countries have very different politics."

YES. You are definitely educating me on this matter. I'm probably out of line extending the American conservative attitude to include Canadians. They appear to be fairly different beasts.

Sorry, Cash, but I just don't feel the same sense of threat and foreboding as you do regarding liberal vs. conservative politics. Both sides, in fact, belong to the same civilization, and we need something more like a consensus or synthesis of ideas rather than one side being totally triumphant and alienating the other. At least, that appears to be the whole idea behind democracy.

It depends on what you mean by "liberalism" doesn't it? And "conservatism". Seems to me that the meanings shift over time and from one country to the next.

I find that many people vote against liberalism because they sense that I am smarter than you are condescending attitude from the left. I see the right shouting insults but without that air of superiority.

Politics has to be more multi dimensional than just left vs right. I said in a previous post that IMO political affiliation is the new ethnicity. At least in the US. And that IMO is disastrous.

In this place politics has been more regionally based and based in a region's economic self interest. Like I said in a previous post Ontario and the West made common cause in the last election IMO because they see more commonality of economic interest. And we've gotten past the division deliberately sown by Liberals for their own political self interest.

"I see the right shouting insults but without that air of superiority."

You must be joking. That, or you don't see very well.

That's how I see it also.

- beginning Alzheimers? -
8/8/11 @ 10:45.
And I should have said, "Q IMPLIED"

Instead of "Q said"

"Regarding the racist label, why don't you tell Asoka "sticks and stones will break my bones but names will never hurt me." That's always a good come-back.
If that doesn't work tell him if he doesn't stop calling you a racist you're going to be really "cross" with him. I know that's harsh but it's often effective."
-the resident prick-

Good comment at 4:44, Cash.

But I don't understand how you two can possibly believe that at least some conservatives are not incredibly arrogant in how they speak about politics and their political opponents. I have provided copious examples above.

Once again Prog - and I am about done with this issue - I never called you a racist and still don't believe you are one. I just found it incredibly perplexing the hoops you jumped through in order to not concede that Asoka was right about the organization you championed.

At any rate, what's wrong with America is not internet disagreement. What's wrong is that a passionate, intelligent, well-spoken individual such as yourself - indeed, a soul committed to 'changing one mind at a time' - is anonymously pleading on the internet for a less racist anti-immigration organization to support and champion. Why don't you, with all your fiery commitment and opposition to illegal immigration, form your own group? You could make a name for yourself, garner huge swaths of support, and according to your own view of the world, improve the quality of life here in America. Nobody could accuse you of being a racist as your screen name indicates an all things to all people persona and I suspect that you would thrive in the hand-shaking and baby-hugging game.

What do you say Prog? Form your own organization under your own name? Or perhaps things aren't that bad after all?

craptrap is not a word claptrap is a word
--------------------------------------
No, but it ought to be....along with "flustrated".

The fact that supply has INCREASED would indicate peak oil has not yet been reached.
---------------------------------
Nobody really knows when PO will occur, and anyone who tells you otherwise just doesn't understand the limits of available data.

Simmons, the avowed hero of the PO advocates, was given to hedging his bets a lot more in his last couple of years. I posted an example here once, which was filled with "my best guess" and similar qualifiers. PO religious types never seem to hear those statements.

The essence of conservatism seems to me a nostalgia for the past and championing of it, hence Sarah Palin and her idealized, 1950's-style small town America, the denigration of multi-culturalism, etc. Often this is an imaginary past that exists only in the mind. Going along with this theme, conservatives seem to either protect the status quo or support a return to some previous way of doing things.

Liberalism is more about accepting change as inevitable and, indeed, a good thing. Thomas Jefferson said that laws should be replaced every 20 years.

Classical liberalism also has a lot to say about tolerance, which in the context of the 18th century, related to religion. This idea has been extended and modified to include race, culture, and other areas.

If you were a conservative in 1776, that means you were a Tory, supporting the English crown. The liberals were the ones fighting for change of the status quo and new political forms.

I think those definitions basically still hold true.

What do you see as the differences?

BTW, I completely agree with you that the Left vs. Right debate which has seemingly taken over politics, is overly narrow and divisive.

Asoka is an absolute master at this, and I despise him for the way he twists, spins, and silences CFN debate.

This is funny, too!

What debate have I silenced?

I made one straightforward comment and you guys spent the morning and afternoon going back and forth about it.

Meanwhile, I went on to peak oil and made some posts about peak oil and public health. You are still on racism.

You are taking this all too personally P,C.

I like you as a person, AS YOU ARE.

"What do you say Prog? Form your own organization under your own name? Or perhaps things aren't that bad after all?"

Things are going to get pretty bad, Buck. And we really don't know what any of us is doing out in the "real world." I'm active in local and regional politics, for example.

But, even if I formed my own organization called R.LION!.com -
-Replacement.Level Immigration Only NOW!.com

Asoka would still call me racist.
And it looks as though you might, as well.

And Turk - I don't care what asoka, buck, or anyone else thinks about me ON CFN. Who cares?

I come here to understand how "the other side" thinks - and to try to perfect my own ideas.

One must generalize - it's called thinking. Do you imagine that Jews, Mexicans, or Blacks have any trouble generalizing about us? Your rebuttal is the classic Jewish One - everyone is an individual and we have no right to generalize about groups. But they don't follow it. And by not following it, by assiduous ethnic profiling, they can exist surrounded by enemies. Meanwhile we check every old lady's shoes. Congratulations, liberal insanity has triumphed.

Good cops ethnicly profile. Young Blacks are THE great kings of criminality. Prejudice? No simple fact easily verified by a google or two. But will you do it?

I don't care what asoka, buck, or anyone else thinks about me ON CFN. Who cares?

------

That's the spirit, P,C!

It's regrettable that you make yourself look like a paranoid fool, cause some of what you say is good and true, but folks don't take you seriously because of the other crap you say.
---------------------------------------
That would be the nature of having a distored paranoid world view, racists have a distorted paranoid world view, hence they often make ridiculous statements exposing that fact. Now, you want him to change that, without changing the entire basis for his view?

It doesn't work that way.


Liberalism no longer means anything that it used to mean. If you people had any integrity you'd call yourselves Communists or at least Socialists.

The Founding Fathers were Liberals - which means in today's parlance Conservative Racists. I proved that to you before and you just sneered "what do I care what those racists believed". So your efforts to cover yourself with the flag are grotesque since you have no regard for it or any kind of Tradition.

No Blacks are too few to take over - much as you wish they could. But they can cause immense damadge and loss of life while the police do nothing because the Liberals have tied their hands. This will happen as it is now happening in England.

Hi, OEOZsaFabian.

You long ago lost credibility around here due to your own behavior, which has included posting flames and trolls using multiple, simultaneous accounts.

So if you're expecting a response from me on specific points or arguments, you are going to be waiting a long time for it. That's because replying to you and expecting any kind of reasonable discussion is a complete waste of time for both of us. Your comments are likely to be deleted by the blog maintainer, anyways.

And, BTW, recently I have called for the banning of your multiple accounts, as have others here. (The only other poster I wanted gone was old69, because he was copy and pasting huge amounts of irrelevant garbage from another blog.) So I'm not ban happy. I basically just don't like you and your 30 different trolling accounts. I prefer participating in a good, back-and-forth debate rather than a grade school name-calling contest. We're obviously here for different reasons.

That'll be about it as far as my comments to you here on this story.

Good day to you. Hope you're having a splendid Tuesday in the Trollhole.

One more thing, Buck -

"Why don't you, with all your fiery commitment and opposition to illegal immigration, form your own group?" -buck stud-

I bet I've said it 20 time over the past 6 months - since the revelation hit me:

I'm not opposed to ILLEGAL immigration.
I'm opposed to LEGAL and ILLEGAL immigration.
===========
Those two terms are all bollixed up together.
And I'm beginning to think that's a deliberate move on the part of those dreaded Powers That Be - that Wage and Hancock are always talking about.

The RW wants cheap labor, degraded unions, and more and more US consumers - so the pay the National Chamber of Commerce to lobby for more immigration, of all types.

The LW wants the borders open and free everything to everybody - so they pay the ACLU, and La Raza, and the ADL to lobby for illegal immigration, especially.

Neither side acknowledges a chance that the days of profligacy will ever end. Because 100 years of energy supply is a LONG TIME, right.

And a US with 500,000,000+ souls on board will be in GREAT shape when food and water run short.

Just look how well we all get along now.

A Clusterf*cked Nation - indeed.

Btw, what's a Racist? Is Jeremiah Wright a racist? Or is it just a White Thing? Is a racist someone who hates other races? Or also someone who just loves his own race more? Under Cultural Marxism - the ruling paradigm - the latter is also a racist. So that makes everyone in the world racist - except freaks like White Liberals of course. They hate their own people - except for other White Liberals of course. The ideological tribe comes before the Nation or the Race for them.

As you know, the Founding Father loved the White Race before all others. So where does that leave you? Sitting on a branch over an abyss busily sawing it away - saw in front of you towards the tree. Enjoy your ride down. You have no past and therefore can have no future.

Vlad, dueling and slavery are no longer legal, though both were commonplace in the late 1700's. These are both activities in which several of the Founding Father partook. Do you think we should go back to allowing pistol duels because Alexander Hamilton did it? Should that be part of our tradition simply because they did it back then?

And, yes, the definition of liberalism has changed. It has been over 200 years. What do you expect? So has the meaning of conservatism. You don't see too many American conservatives calling for rule by the British crown, now do you?

"And if that is so true, why do you resist "changing" your filled, asbestos panties? They stink. Change them already."
-FabTootTrue, still here-

Turkle - I can't believe you are responding to this guy. You're gonna lose those posts, if JHK practices any consistency.

Howdy Progressor,

Long post heads-up!

You and I rubbed horns when you first started posting here on CFN and you readily conceded that you had indeed been struck by the foot in mouth disease concerning the energy contained in full SCUBA tank. When we rubbed horns concerning the Earths' human overpopulation problem you turned your nose up to my suggested solution and became absolutely convinced that stopping the illegal invasion into the US is the panacea which will save humankind. In my opinion your stop the illegals position has induced you to paint yourself into the corner from whence you are now attempting to extricate yourself without conceding any ground.

I grew up in northern NY in the 40's, 50's and 60's and in my first 14 years of schooling I recall only one black kid, when I was a high school junior, in the entire populations of the grade, high trade schools I attended. In June 62 I started working for a division of GM in Rochester, NY. While looking at a room in a private home I was talking with the elderly lady (today she would be a young lady to me :-) )of the house when she suddenly pulled the curtain over slightly to enable her to surreptitiously look out the front of her house and exclaimed "there goes another one". Startled I looked outside to see what was causing her consternation, all I saw was a kid riding a bike, a black kid. At that time in my life I considered myself enough of a non-racist to excuse myself from her home and cross her off of my list. A bit over two years later I was stationed at England AFB, LA having joined the USAF after receipt of my draft notice and eschewing the potential joy of Army AIT. This was the Fall of 1964 and with my own eyes I recall seeing vanity license plate holders on cars, during a couple of trips I made to Alabama with a GI friend of mine, proudly proclaiming "Alabama Home of the N***** Killers". At the time roughly 25% of the GIs I worked with were black and we got along well to the point that I went into a black neighborhood in Lousiana where one of my friends lived to fix his car for him; he was convinced I would chicken out.

Years later (1974) while working at Mare Island NAS, CA, when my first marriage was going down the shitter, I had a torrid affair with a black (woman) co-worker whose marriage was similarly impaired. In 1987 I found myself working at APG, MD about 30 miles north of Baltimore. Within a short time I began to despise Baltimore and Balmerians (spelling colloquial) especially blacks who participated in drug dealing, using and murder (watch "The Wire" from HBO). I still despise Baltimore and Balmerians although I left there in Spring 2002.

Did my experiences in the Baltimore environs turn me into a rabid hard over racist? No. Did it leave me with a distrust and dislike of blacks dressed in particular clothing displaying certain mannerisms of behavior. Hell yes! Did I become somewhat racist? Unfortunately I have to admit; yes. Do I feel similarly toward Hispanics, Asians, .... No. Could I if exposed to situations similar to what I observed in Baltimore? More than likely.

It appears to me that a number of the CFNers participating in the racist intercourse have intimated that which I believe; we all have racist inclinations, some more some less. It is most likely in our genes as result of the clan, group, family survival machinations during the last 1/2 million years, or so, of our evolution.

Added to my butchering of an oft butchered quote from "Hamlet": "Sometimes we all doth protest too much, methinks", I will plagiarize the Wikipedia meaning as most apropos: "to insist so passionately about something not being true that people suspect the opposite of what one is saying."

Smooth your hackles down a bit and take a gander at this link - http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/195073/20110809/nasa-dna-meteorites-building-blocks-life-on-earth-from-space.htm - perhaps it will change your out look about life in general.

SNAFU

Vlad,
You are an anacronism, a throwback to thinking that cannot, and must not endure, if the human race is to endure.

Human nature?....human nature is what you make it, and its our job to make it better than what it's been in the past, Why? because if we don't, we will eventually destroy ourselves.

All of human history has been an increasing progression away from parochial thinking ---500 years ago you fought with the guy who lived 50 miles away, and throughout history the group you regarded as your own gets larger and larger--- and it must continue, no matter how hard it is at times. Not for the sake of this or that group, but for all of our sakes.

We don't live on little islands where the thinking developed hundreds of years ago can secceed. We can destroy people thousand of miles away in minutes now, and you want us to keep thinking like we still live in medieval times?

What a ridiculous and fanciful notion to fill your head with!

It's a play on words:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fsck

Hope that clarifies it for you.

If Prog/con started his own anti-immigration organization he would automatically be labeled racist just for being anti- immigration. Sometimes you just have to take a stand and live with it.

"Btw, what's a Racist? Is Jeremiah Wright a racist? Or is it just a White Thing? Is a racist someone who hates other races? Or also someone who just loves his own race more?" -vlad-

Reasonable questions, Vlad. And, as Cash indicates, "racist" is one loaded word.

You just read my story about burning crosses, right. "Racist" arouses a strong emotion in me. As I indicated, I hate goddamn racists. Always will. Of any skin color.

And I know I speak for a lot of native Southerners, in this regard. Reflect back on our discussions of AmRen in Charlotte, this past winter.

You need to find a way to change the debate and work around the hate - if you're ever going to get anywhere with your ideas.
=========
And I know I'm sitting on a limb, where I live in the South, but I'm not sawing. Hate is the saw. Overpopulation is the abyss. Sanity is the tree. Metaphors, anyone? Vlad likes 'em.

If you things are going to get so bad as to render the anti-illegal immigration cause moot, then I would tend to agree. In fact, illegal immigration is down sharply - do you recall the NYT article I posted.

So now I'm perplexed why you keep flogging the immigration horse in light of your statement above. Apparently "dire circumstances" might render your public contributions to solving the issue pointless on one hand, and yet you apparently fear being termed a racist on the other. And yet you claim to not care what others think.

Now you're sounding a bit conflicted, Prog.( And apparently, in your martyrdom, you don't recall your own delivered digs/insults either.)

In short, the immigration issue is not worth risking a public reputation. And Southern Man, palms facing upward, looks north for somebody else to solve the issue.

Wetbacks from India are 'In' [pun intended].
#1 group after Spanish speaking to be caught sneaking in.
No cause for concern, Nearly 2 Billion in India,
only a few million Indians/ Pakis in US, Canada.

Predictably its lil ole me who brings this here.
SoCal flooded with Indians.

"So now I'm perplexed why you keep flogging the immigration horse in light of your statement above."
-buck-

Because, Buck, illegal immigration numbers are TINY compared to legal immigration numbers. And being ILLEGAL - illegal immigration easily reversed itself when the economy turned down. Whereas legal immigration just keeps on rolling, supported by social services - whether the US can afford all these new LEGAL immigrants or not.

This country is growing 1% per year - due mostly to LEGAL immigrants and their children.

That's 3 million per year. At some point that becomes unsustainable. Without fossil fuel subsidies - we passed that point years and years ago.

I think that's grounds for concern.
Show me where I'm wrong.

Regarding:
"Now you're sounding a bit conflicted, Prog.( And apparently, in your martyrdom, you don't recall your own delivered digs/insults either.)"
-buck-
I thought your garbled post was funny, buck, and intended my remarks as humor. Should have used one of those emoticons that Q hates. ;-) :-)
I do, though, think that mental tensions sometimes show through our posts. I know mine do - that's OK.

Whiskey's for drinking. Water's for fighting.

The real world's for compromise.
CFN's for fighting. hahahohohehe

Years ago, when I was just starting w/HP-UX, I've seen a bumpersticker around here: Honk if you fcsk!
:-)

that's fsck, not what I just typed...

Right - move on . org. Where to? Why Communism of course - in the fullest sense of the word. Forced uniformity. Everyone tan skinned. Gender erased or at least the appearance of it. Equal rights - who wants it? Equal outcomes!

I never said thew 1700's were perfect. But they were better than where we are going. The horrors of the French Revolution cured Jefferson and Franklin of any remaining romanticism. The writing of Edmund Burke are carried the day. Even Tom Paine is said to have renounced his radical egalitarianism at the end. He had already been eschewed by the Founders. Adams said of him that he knew exactly how to tear down a society but not how to build one up. Ditto you. He wanted another revolution in America - just like the Bolsheviks took over from the Menshaviks. Just like Howard Zinn wanted.

I admire the cunning of the Left. Imagine using the doctrine of diversity to destroy all diversity in Humanity! This is the product of a supernatural angelic intelligence but His servants like Alinsky are no mean pupils.

Glad you liked my question. Noticed you didn't answer it though. Good for you - I would checkmate you in three moves. You prefer emotion and wooly mindedness. Then you can condemn anytime you want and anyone who goes after you can be told they "don't get it". Getting it remain subjective of course. This is no way to debate an issue - or run a Nation. The Queen is of course Pelosi, "You have to pass the bill in order to know what's in it".

But you are clear on immigration within your own paradigm at least. Yes it will ruin us in short order even if everything else remained stable, which of course it wont. And you are active so Bravo on that.

You're spot on about the need for shades of gray. I often find myself taking flak from both sides because I think for myself. In my case, it's a bit worse from the left (ironically, since I tend to lean left), but that's partly due to specific personalities among my family and friends. I'm not aware of any rabid conservative cultists in my family and I don't usually socialize with such people, but we have plenty of them down here. As far as I can tell, they're one hell of a lot worse than your conservatives.

We have some smug lefties of the sort that you often berate. You'd feel quite at home among the sniveling "progressives" in most of our larger cities. It's like Toronto, but with less snow. I have a few such people in my family, and I sometimes find them insufferable.

The difference (or former difference, depending on the ramifications of your recent Liberal bloodbath) is that our smug lefties don't have the moxie to drive the national debate. GOP noise aside, the Democratic Party is hesitant to openly cater to its base on account of the very effective scorched earth tactics used by the Republicans. Dems often go batshit crazy at the Congressional District level, where their seats are safe, but in state and national contests they usually kowtow to thuggish right-wing elements lest they be accused of being "liberal," which cretins on the right have successfully turned into a slur. In some lefty circles "conservative" is an equivalent slur. This offers an idea of how moronic and manipulable our political culture is. The tactical advantage that the GOP has secured in this degraded environment is an ability to go to extremes that most Democrats wouldn't consider and not get called out for being rabidly nuts because they've intimidated their opposition.

We Yanks have political balkanization at the national level, like you've described in Canada, and in places at the county level. John Boehner is a poster child for the latter, raised in an industrial neighborhood on the very edge of Cincinnati and now living in an overwhelmingly Republican enclave in the exurbs near Dayton. Metro Cincinnati is a microcosm of self-segregation by political affiliation: conservatives have fled to the suburbs, liberals to the cities, and the two sides now distrust and misunderstand one another. This phenomenon is most pronounced in Rust Belt metro areas where real estate is cheap enough for anyone to indulge in such pettiness, but it has happened elsewhere, too. Some observers blame it for the hardening of American partisanship.

At the national level, we have a coastal elite that condescends to a "flyover country" that it doesn't understand. Right-wingers exaggerate this for political gain, but it is a problem. The Versailles-on-the-Potomac that Washington has become is another symptom of the same disease, although in the latter case the right is just as guilty as the left. For many of these people, anything beyond Trenton, Leesburg or Pasadena might as well be a foreign country. It's no wonder we have a government and news/entertainment apparatus that are so out of touch, indifferent or malicious.

Some of these jokers have their own absurd take on Canadian political divisions, occasionally referring to Alberta as "Canada's Texas." These dolts, who can't reliably tell Texas from Wyoming from Kansas, tell us that all the oilmen who enjoy a good boot-stompin' Fort McMurray hoedown are evidently Texans. What I'd really like to see is those good-ol' Canuck oilmen call the Mounties on any honest-to-God Texas local color with the balls to bring their version of the Wild West north of the 54'40". I'd also want to see the priceless expressions on the reporters' faces when they discover that there are lower and higher grades of redneck.

You said it yourself a year (s?) ago: Tibetans deserve a Homeland while Whites deserve nothing. When asked to expain, you said Tibetans have something to offer the world! There can be no defence of such views - they are abhorrent. They may have currency in some circles but you better keep quiet about them on the streets in Boise. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Humans have no nature? Not even Buddha Nature? I assume you aren't saying that. Buddhism and Behaviorism cannot be equated even though some of their techniques might parallel.

Loyalty to one's family, community, and nation are part of natural human nature. If you can't find them inside yourself, you have alot of work to do.

When people in Katmandu get sick or broke, they don't go to their next door neighbor, they go Home to where their People come from. Modern cities don't promote human community very well. You seem to be a product of this - so far gone you don't even know how people are supposed to live.

"Oh, and BTW, it is a fact that self-identified liberals are better informed and educated than self-profesesed conservatives, based on the surveys I've seen."

I thought you might find these comparisons interesting.

Liberals vs. Conservatives, collected by Jon Winokur

Conservative, n. A Statesman who is enamored of existing evils, as distinguished from a liberal, who wishes to replace them with others.
-Ambrose Bierce

A conservative is a man who sits and thinks, mostly sits. - Woodrow Wilson

Liberals can understand everything but people who don't understand them. -Lenny Bruce

A conservative is a man with two perfectly good legs who, however, has never learned to walk forward. - FDR

A liberal is a man too broadminded to take his own side in a quarrel. -Robert Frost

[Conservatives] define themselves in terms of what they oppose. -George Will

Liberals are very broadminded: They are always willing to give careful consideration to both sides of the same side. -Anonymous

The most radical revolutionary will become a conservative the day after the revolution. -Hannah Arendt

The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy: that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith

A liberal is a person whose interests aren't at stake at the moment. -Willis Player

A conservative Republican is one who doesn't believe anything new should be tried for the first time. A liberal Republican is one who does believe something should be tried for the first time--but not now. -Mort Sahl

A liberal is conservative who's been arrested. A conservative is a liberal who's been mugged. -Tom Wolfe (Sound familiar?)

A man who has both feet planted firmly in the air can be safely called a liberal as opposed to a conservative, who has both feet firmly planted in his mouth. -Jacques Barzun

I didn't read many of the posts above, particularly the back-and-forth fights, so it seems I stepped in the middle of some sort of conflict over rascism, as I read back to try and figure out your reply.

My comments about the Rebfederacy weren't related to that, nor themed as such, except inadvertantly. From your reply, it kind of looks like you replied to me along that line of thought.

My comments were more about long-term human ignorance and other negative tendencies than racism, so I apologize for inadvertantly sticking you with that.

I was ultimately just trying to impart that, while you have altered my overall views of the Civil War, what happened for a hundred years, and is now happening again in a "kinder and gentler" form, in the Old Confederacy can never be forgotten.

Doubly so considering the center of power that has ultimately finished the American People as ever again being any kind of counterforce against totalitarianism, especially RW Corporate Socialism, is the Old Confederacy.

Don't blame the messenger, please.

Also, I guessed that you probably had some personal experience with the Confederate-KKK Reign of Terror in your youth. Post-ironic, the high likelihood that in your old age you will have some similar experiences.

You said:

He was a small man, progressive by today's standards, apparently with the heart of a lion.

What happened to people like that, an almost extinct breed today? They helped beat RW Authoritarian Hitler, wore down over deacdes the LW Authoritarian Soviets, created (briefly) the Greatest Nation that ever was or probably will be, at least in our weight class, created great lives for themselves and a couple more generations and died. Our nation wasn't perfect, but at least it was trying to make itself better.

They probably died never guessing that what they'd built would be torn down within a few decades. Never guessed that the former USA would turn so quickly from one side of history, fighting the Authoritarians like Hitler and Stalin, to totalitarianism's gullible, slavish and slavering followers on the other side.

But here it is. It is happening here. In many ways, it has already happened but for the eventual and inevitable blood and suffering. Somewhere down in hell, Adolf Hitler and Prescott Bush are holding hands and laughing at their ultimate triumph over Liberalism and the former USA.

Stillhear says, "(Liberals) should accept the fact that they have spent us into a whirlpool of debt with giveaways and broken promises. And as a result (liberals) need to change."

And what? Vote Republican?

Its Muslim unrest in UK? Yes?
Pakis?

Great post.

ront,

Yours, too.

"Because once defined it simply means putting your own people first" -Turkle quoting Vlad re: RACISM
===================

I have this idea in my head that if you went back to the early dictionary definitions of "racism" you might find there was no pejorative sense to the word. I located an on-line search tool into what is apparently the original Webster's Dictionary dated 1828. Unfortunately it did not contain the word "racism."

The tool then offers 39 other dictionaries to check. I clicked on one of them at random and it gave the following definition of "racism."

1.belief in or doctrine asserting racial differences in character, intelligence, etc. and the superiority of one race over another or others: racist doctrine also, typically, seeks to maintain the supposed purity of a race or the races
2.any program or practice of racial discrimination, segregation, etc., specif., such a program or practice that upholds the political or economic domination of one race over another or others
3.feelings or actions of hatred and bigotry toward a person or persons because of their race

There is little that might be taken as pejorative in element 1. of the definition.

In element 2. you begin to see what we consider today as the negative aspects of the word, namely "a program or practice that upholds the political or economic domination of one race over another or others."

In element 3. the negativity is obvious (feelings of hatred, etc.).

But keep in mind, element 1. is listed first because that is its primary definition. The lexicographers did not declare it to be number 1., they recognized it as number 1. If we could locate the first appearance of "racism" in a dictionary I wonder if those negative elements 2. and 3. even appeared. Maybe they came later via evolution.

I'm sure Vlad would agree (and everyone here would agree) that he is a racist according to element 1. at a minimum.

While someone like Turkle would quibble endlessly over the meaning and legitimacy of each word in the phrase "racial differences in character, intelligence, etc. and the superiority of one race over another" Vlad would accept the key words as self evident. After all, the definition of any word is made up of other words and where are you if there is no generally accepted concept of "character," of "intelligence" and of "superiority?"

It is only in the past 50 or so years that we have been indoctrinated to reject the idea that racial differences actually exist and, in fact, to go one giant step farther (further?) and make it a virtual crime to publicly voice such an opinion.

You are never going to get a public admission out of PoC that he is a racist in accordance with the (element 1.) primary definition of racism because PoC cannot tolerate being disliked by anyone and must be everyone's pal.

There is a portion of the primary definition I have not yet mentioned which says "racist doctrine also, typically, seeks to maintain the supposed purity of a race or the races."

The lexicographers were sensible in using the words "typically" and "supposed" since although "birds of a feather flock together" sometimes the flesh is weak.

It would seem that someone got my message.
Good then. Hell awaits.

No, good cops don't engage in racial or ethnic profiling. Good cops have the street smarts, judgment and social skills to evaluate individuals based on their actions. The ones who resort to racial profiling are bigots and witless incompetents who have no business being hired as cops in the first place. Staffing a police department with officers of that caliber is a recipe for disaster. Covering for shitty cops does a disservice to everyone but the shitty cops themselves. That includes other cops who have to put up with their needless provocations.

I'd really like to see Southerners of goodwill--the likes of Jimmy Carter, Robert E. Lee, Kathleen Parker, Jim Webb and maybe Mike Huckabee--reassert their region's honor against the authoritarian cretins who keep trying to hijack it. The alternative upheld by the South's dominant politicians seems to be a hellish hybrid of Jim Crow and Calvinist Geneva. Through their incessant bullying, they keep finding ways to impose their sick schemes on the rest of the nation, too. People agitating for that sort of atavistic tyranny need to be marginalized for the good of their societies.

By the way, thanks for the kind words. One of my posts apparently got rejected last night; it was pretty long, so maybe the powers-that-be think I'm wasting the Interwebs. Oh, well.

"You are never going to get an public admission out of PoC that he is an racist in accordance with the (element 1.) primary definition of racism because PoC cannot tolerate being disliked by anyone and must be everyone's pal." -Q-

You are one strange guy, Q. I was looking back at CFN archives from an couple of years ago - and there you were, saying, "that poster is looking for friends...and has an need to be liked....." (paraphrased)

So, go ahead and hate me, Q. I'm trying to give you a excellent reason. What do you need for a inspiration, after all?? Although you'll demonstrate your hate by calling me an "wuss," or an "pussy," or - the HORROR - an "woman."

It's hard to anger an confident straight guy, who happens to like women, with those sorts of insults, IMO.

=====================

Now, regarding racism, though - I do believe you may be on to something. I don't know if it's a Southern thing, or a generational thing - but being called "racist" is B.A.D, BAD, in my book.
And I'm not alone in this.

Let's consider the presidential adventures of George BushII, and HIS worst ever moment:
"Despite leading the US into war and presiding over one of the greatest financial disasters in history, the worst moment of George W Bush's presidency was, he said this week, when Kanye West called him a racist. "It was a disgusting moment, pure and simple," Bush said. "I didn't appreciate it then [and] I don't appreciate it now."" -guardian article-
http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2010/nov/04/george-w-bush-kanye-west


> Young Blacks are THE great kings of criminality.

Vlad, I've met numbers of young blacks who aren't criminal at all: some where college students in some of my classes, others I met thru church activities, volunteer activities. I see lots of 'em in the bike shop, tennis court. Sure, there are some young blacks in certain hoods that the looks of em makes me check if my car doors are locked, but I felt the same in some lower-class white areas as well.
There's this very polite black kid who drops off our local paper once a week, he's going to study Physics at Case (Case Western Reserve University), is he a part of the Kings of Kriminality?

Generalizations aren't thinking, generalizations are a fallacy. Within each large groups there are various smaller sub-groups. My mother-in-law (83 y.o) had her purse snatched from her a few years back, so hard she fell down and got hurt -- punk white kid.

You know, if an alien from another planet landed in some parts of the former East Germany and encountered the young hoods there, he would've generalized that white youths are violent mindless sub-humans, what do you think of that?

I know I won't convince you, you have a biological kind of hate of "others", it's not logical with you, it's visceral.

>Your rebuttal is the classic Jewish One - everyone is an individual and we have no right to generalize about groups

But you yourself want to be seen as an individual, right? Someone may generalize YOU as being a part of the liberal white do-gooders, that would sting won't it? In fact I'd bet there are lots of "white" subgroups you'd hate to be generalized and pigeonholed with
:)

I might add that a great many of these same cretins are trying to turn the US into a glorified company town and its government into a company store. You've argued more or less the same thing in different terms.

It's worth noting that this sort of shock doctrine predation isn't just coming from Dixie. There are a lot of genuine Yankee Doodle Dandies in on this violent racket as well. These are sociopaths with a superiority complex who don't mind preying upon any Southerner, Northerner, Easterner, Westerner or foreigner weaker than they. I've met some scary specimens from Philly and other parts of the Mid-Atlantic.

What is coming from Dixie is the religious cover for all of these sick cryptofascist schemes. It usually comes from the most fucked up nooks and crannies of the Southern Baptist Convention. People like the late Jerry Falwell have huge sway over self-described "Christians" throughout the land. These Elmer Gantries are keystones for rapacious power players who want to assemble useful idiots for their causes.

Picasso was a fraud. His way of "art" is the factory system - lots done quickly for maximum profit.

Now, regarding racism, though - I do believe you may be on to something. I don't know if it's a Southern thing, or a generational thing - but being called "racist" is B.A.D, BAD, in my book.
And I'm not alone in this.

Let's consider the presidential adventures of George BushII, and HIS worst ever moment:
"Despite leading the US into war and preiding over one of the greatest financial disasters in history, the worst moment of George W Bush's presidency was, he said this week, when Kanye West called him a racist. "It was a disgusting moment, pure and simple," Bush said. "I didn't appreciate it then [and] I don't appreciate it now.""
============================================

Maybe you are not a racist, and who really cares except those you have an opportunity to influence or to degrade personally? But to quote this ass in one of his most assine moments shows you are bat shit clueless. This criminal starts illegal wars, gives bankers the legal means to rip us ALL off, gives sanction to illegal prisons and war camps, sanctions torture,and his worst moment is being called a racist? Give me a fucking break. That you use these words in any way makes you an idiot beyond redemption. That you care about a racist label after quoting a murderer (in what seemed to be a good thing to feel to you) takes any credibility away from you.

"I was ultimately just trying to impart that, while you have altered my overall views of the Civil War, what happened for a hundred years, and is now happening again in a "kinder and gentler" form, in the Old Confederacy can never be forgotten.
Doubly so considering the center of power that has ultimately finished the American People as ever again being any kind of counterforce against totalitarianism, especially RW Corporate Socialism, is the Old Confederacy.

Don't blame the messenger, please."
-Hancock-

I'm not blaming the messenger, HC. But now you and I must retreat to our separate ramparts and resume firing, perhaps. ;)

And I'm trying to not post quite so much - so earlier I was trying to answer you and BuckStud with the same story. Sorry if I confused the issue. And this post to you also goes to AMR.
And to some extent to SNAFU and Vlad - to whom I also owe responses. Ozone, you'll want to read this too, but you're not going to like it a whole lot.

You guys see things so clearly from the Victorious Northern perspective. Things are never as clear as they seem - to any of us.
And they look different in the South. We lost.

Johnson, a Texan, said in 1964, "We have lost the South for a generation," referencing the passage of the Civil Rights Act. Johnson was an optimist.

I hear it a lot on CFN - those damn Southern voters keep voting for Republicans. And it's true. And there are reasons that we have discussed before. But here's a new one.

The South, bereft of strong unions or much manufacturing - has always been relatively impoverished. The response of voters, like that of any other group EVER placed under stress - has been to "circle the wagons." They followed orders, followed fear, followed whatever you want to call it - and voted for the candidate who was:
- for "law and order"
- for "strong defense"
- for "business"
- against "unions, pinkos, commies, etc"
- for "saving fetuses"
- against "gay marriage"
You get the idea.
And much manipulation has been involved - much of it instigated by RW political operatives from outside of the South.

You know your idea about the reptilian brain, Hancock - always reacting in fear or anger, and never ever satisfied. Maybe Southern voters, on average, are just easier to brainwash - because the scars of the Civil War were papered over, ignored, allowed to fester, lanced, then papered over by easy money - for a while - only for a while.

I begin to fear that the South, understanding defeat and hardship like no other US region can, has been hunkering down for trouble - for many, many years.

As economic trouble inevitably comes to the rest of the country, it will be interesting.

Like the Chinese curse, "May you live in interesting times."


Is that you, Not Mommy/TooTsie?
It's somebody who posts all the time and rarely makes sense - of that I'm fairly certain.

"This criminal starts illegal wars, gives bankers the legal means to rip us ALL off, gives sanction to illegal prisons and war camps, sanctions torture,and his worst moment is being called a racist?" -not an ego, but something-

That's EXACTLY my point, notanego.

Exactly my point - even BushII was DEEPLY affected by the worst all all charges for an American White Man, "RACIST."

Picasso was a fraud. His way of "art" is the factory system - lots done quickly for maximum profit.
==

Sometimes we just have to recognize that there is no cure to a disease. That not every disease has a cure waiting to be discovered. It's terminal. This is the conclusion I now have reached concerning you. You're on your own, Vladik.

Oh, I'm sorry. I thought I was logging on to a peak oil, long emergency website. I guess I typed in the wrong address and got on a race site.

Maybe I should thank you guys for saving me a lot of time because I just scroll past all the boring race postings. All that's relevant about race in this site is that when TLE hits, it will be racial groups vs. racial groups, ehnics vs. ethnics, hoarders vs. non-hoarders, spy vs. spy, etc., and how we survive in that kind of environment. End of necessary discussion.

'Oh, please! What BS. The liberals are NOT the ones who are all about insults, not by a long shot.'

Please...after all the Insults you have offered here@!

Is this from your post a few days ago?

"India, S. Korea, wherever - are able to tolerate their high population densities, precisely BECAUSE they are (relative to the US) ONE culture and/or race and because they have more of a mindset of coexistence and cooperation - that already spans a centuries."

Indias Dividing line [literally] has been Islam/ Non Islamic.

I am neither a liberal or a conservative; or at least, that's how I view myself. What I'm trying to do is be as objective as I am able. In my experience I've found that the liberal personality is one of smugness, moral superiority, smarminess and unrealistic. On the other hand, I've found the conservative personality to be narrow-minded,stupidly religious, prejudiced, conspiratorial, and unrealistic.

To my mind, the above doesn't speak highly of humanity.

Pro/con , they are really on your ass this week. I admire you for trying to clarify your position and stand your ground. The country is at an impasse not seen since those pre-civil war days. One can only hope a better resolution can be found this time. But I doubt it.

Concerning immigration: It's a matter of overpopulation, both globally and regionally. Population density is not evenly distributed world-wide and is always in flux.

Whether or not those who discuss immigration are racists is not the issue, in fact, race is irrelevant in the discussion. The issues are determining what an ideal or reasonable U.S. population is, and if we are exceeding it what are the likely consequences, and what we should do about it.

Old white guys talking race and racism

I'm not sure what your point is. Please explain.

It is simply about maintaing a good quality of life in a world of diminishing resources. And may be learning from the mistakes of others such as India and Mexico.

Excellent! Thanks for those.

"But they were better than where we are going."

You go ahead and enjoy your life expectancy of 45 and the leeches they slap on your behind when you get a cold. Me, I'll take the 21st century, thanks.

Guess you didn't google! Blacks assault, murder, and rape at about seven times the White rate. Seven percent would be significant, but this is SEVEN TIMES. You are grasping at straws. If you lose this belief, the whole liberal house of cards falls.

To my mind, the above doesn't speak highly of humanity.
==

No, we're quite ingenious.

Full spectrum dominance. The right hand pretending to be fighting with the left hand:

The S&P Debt Downgrade: What It Means
- http://goo.gl/WDbf9

Conservatives, huh?

For the death penalty and against abortion.

That about sums it up.

Yeah, I don't understand how whites get to be different things but blacks are all Crips and Bloods. It is a bit confusing.

That about sums it up.
==

How so?

How not so?

I would guess that Wall Street really controls the military/industrial complex as well. I'm not sure that one is fighting for supremacy with the other.

The military only will be ascendant when the economy crashes and disorder reigns and Wall Street goes down. When that happens I'd look for some strongman in the military to take over.

Allow me to modify number one for another point of view: the differences do not have to be judged as superior etc. Take you home town, street, and house - they may not be the "best" town, street, and house but they will always be special to you because they were YOURS. People used to understand this without alot of intellection. But now everyone is like Turkel and has to big think every natural aspect of life - and end up getting it all wrong. My race, my people, my nation - they are special to me. I prefer them just like a parent prefers their own child. Maybe I do think Whites have some special qualities, but so do other peoples. Maybe I think our qualities are more important - others might disagree. But regardless of who is right, I will prefer my own against high IQ immigrants from Asia. It's not about IQ when it comes down to the wire.

This point of view is so simple that it goes right under the radar of intellectuals. Yet nothing is more natural and wholesome - or more widespread through out humanity. We forget it at our peril since other Peoples have not.

What do you think of the downgrade? Was it warranted? I think it's a great wake up call regardless. The guy from Standard and Poor's said, "We hold a mirror up to nature". And we are outraged and respond with vicious bright siding.

"But now everyone is like Turkel"

If everyone is like me, why do I get in so many arguments here?

I didn't know you were with me. Could have fooled me.

Picasso is another false idol. Almost of all of modern art is crap. You must be very young not to realize that. Jews don't seem to have much ability in the visual arts - so they became gallery owners and funded alot of crap. Also it was anti traditional and anti Western and few Jews can resist supporting that.

In contrast, Jews have alot of musical ability as both consumers and performers. They often control symphonies due to donations etc. One Greek Composer composed the anthem for the Palestinian Nation - his tour of Boston was cancelled and he was blackballed through out the Classical World.

Patrizza,

The voluptuous life certainly has its consequences - too much food, drink, and whatnot - but so does the self denial of the ascetic. Personally, I believe the true voluptuary attains bounty as a result of happiness as opposed to using bounty as a means to attain it. (Not to discount the need for the necessities either.)

AMR,

Indeed. And not only that, but how would Vlad like to be profiled by a bad black cop with a racial axe to grind. But then again, Vlad seems to believe a boomerang flies in one direction only.

I have no idea why you mentioned Picasso other than you thought it was the NYT link that I provided a while back ago. In actuality, the link was regarding the decline of illegal immigration. At any rate, Picasso was certainly not a fraud.

Stick to your area of expertise Krantz: spray painting the front yard figure lantern sculpture black.

Obama needs to get sign for his desk, "The buck starts here". He seems incapable of anything. After all, everything has been handed to him all his life. He could literally do no wrong as a Black Man in Liberal America.

I fully agree with Gerald Celente.
The only solution is direct democracy, giving the power to the citizens.
How? Vote via Internet.
They say it is not safe.
That is not true.
If you do your bank transactions via internet you can also vote.

Vote for the war, vote for the most important decisions that affect your life.
Power back to the ones who pay.

No Negroes this time though I'm sure others are jumping in. You can tell because the media refused to identify which group was doing it. This is a sure sign of Blacks. If they identified Blacks everytime they did something, people might start waking up to the reality of these people. Though come to think of it, many countries in Europe play the same "youths" word game with Muslims too.

Here's some rare commonsense from Britain about the whole issue:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/katharinebirbalsingh/100099830/these-riots-were-about-race-why-ignore-the-fact/


" I believe the true voluptuary.."

Putting it more prosaically, money doesn't necessarily buy happiness, right.

I have made a fair effort at trying not to live by the tenets of the hedonistic calculus but I also believe that living well is the best revenge.

So, life is a gamble and also an act of balance.

I meant to post a few comments of my own a couple of weeks ago regarding some back and forth between you and Vlad on Ali, the Klitschkos, etc.
Will get to it in a day or so.

Vlad, the voltage here was down for awhile. I guess you opened some circuits while tuning up "old sparky" for the far left liberals.

Picasso a fraud? Even if commercial, just about all of it was very good. I have to check it out, but if I remember correctly, I believe he had one period that was far less "modern" and maybe more to your liking.

Fight fan that I am, I will post soon on Ali, the Klitschkos, etc.

They say that (even blacks say) Mayweather is giving blacks a bad name by running from the Pacman. Sure, it does build the purse.

All my investment are in the country, with a lot of land.
I believe land is the future.
And Germany´s countryside is so beautiful.
When tourists talk of Germany they see Berlin.

But around Berlin and in Meklenburg Vorpommen there are millions of lakes, forests (The Black Forest is the biggest of Europe, but the Chorin national park is slightly smaller and so beautiful), wild nature and animals...and a lot of silence and uncontaminated places.

On Obama and buck stopping all I can say is:

S.O.N.O.F.A.B.I.T.C.H. !!

For those who don't know, "stop Obama now or face awful, big, intense, tragic, consequences hereafter".

Patrizia, it sounds so wonderful! I dream of going back to Europe and having scrumptious pastries and delicious coffees and solving the Riemann hypothesis while gazing at the Schwarzwald!

Next summer I will live in Brandenburg, Peetzig see.
Be my guest!

Money is an accounting unit. Money cannot exceed what it accounts (so "too much money" is a bit like "too many metres" - it does not quite make sense). The point to debate, therefore, is whether or not we are grossly overestimating the capabilities available to us.

As for resources, it's very difficult to conceal their shortage. It's like with a broken bone - if you're unsure about whether you just broke a bone, then you did not just break a bone.

I just tried to post a fairly long reply to you. It didn't have excessive cursing or cut and paste or links posted or any obvious reason why it would be eaten and not allow me to repost it, even if I changed it.

So, let me just say, great post and I would have loved to continued our conversation. I saved the post so maybe will try to wo parts of it into future replies.

You do make some excellent points, but here you fall flat, in my opinion:

The South, bereft of strong unions or much manufacturing - has always been relatively impoverished. The response of voters, like that of any other group EVER placed under stress - has been to "circle the wagons." They followed orders, followed fear, followed whatever you want to call it - and voted for the candidate who was...

Ok, fine, but what was it that CAUSED the South to be impoverished? Slavery. And then the 100 years of de facto slavery during the KKK-Confederate Reign of Terror that followed.

If you haven't noticed, slavery, even the Virtual Slavery practiced in 21st Century America, isn't good for the, ahem, GINI coefficient and Wealth Distribution Curve. Slavery only creates wealth for a tiny few which explains why it has always been practiced, and continues today in it's plausibly deniable "company store" form.

How could your compatriots then OR now, escape the brutal domination, particularly mentally, of their callous Aristocratic Overlords when Free People can never compete with Slaves in terms of cost-effectiveness? (Capitalism is about cost-effectiveness leading to profits, after all)

Answer: They couldn't, and as you say, they circled the wagons in response to stress...right around those who use them like donkeys and keep them poor, ignorant, and largely bereft of the critical thinking skills that are the hallmark of Free People.

How human. Over and over again the same thing happens. Left Wing, Right Wing, North Wing, South Wing...doesn't matter. Time and time again we Peasants have circled our wagons and defended our brutalizers against those who would free us. Not always, but often, even most of the time.

“I freed a thousand slaves I could have freed a thousand more, if only they knew they were slaves.” Harriet Tubman

Yet another quote that nearly universally defines the human condition and 8000 years of Master and Slave, Aristocrat and Peasant.

Hold up a mirror to any human hypocrisy and people will freak out, angrier at the mirror than the hypocrisy that makes the image so ugly. Myself included. It's what it is to be human.

The amazingly few people that aren't like that...well, we kill them. They're Bad for Business. Since before the Greek Nobility forced Socrates to drink his hemlock, they've been bad for business.

Let's not forget another of history's great realities swept under the rug...the Alamo and by extension Texas secession, was primarily fought for Texas' right to own slaves, after Mexico's new Constitution outlawed it.

As I recently heard an author say (but can't remember who), "The human mind is a lawyer, not a scientist."

Given that basic near-universal truth about us all, was there ever any doubt that the human species would end both in violence and backwards ignorance, drowning in our own chemical, nuclear and literal feces?

I think not.

Hancock1863-Good to see your posts again.

You said:

I am neither a liberal or a conservative; or at least, that's how I view myself. What I'm trying to do is be as objective as I am able. In my experience I've found that the liberal personality is one of smugness, moral superiority, smarminess and unrealistic. On the other hand, I've found the conservative personality to be narrow-minded,stupidly religious, prejudiced, conspiratorial, and unrealistic.

Considering you are Jewish, that is an astonishing thing you said in the first line.

Can you not be aware that when crunch time comes, what matters is not what you believe yourself to be, but what the Authoritarians believe you to be?

Would you really say to the Nazis as they busted down your door that you weren't really either Jewish nor Christian, so would they please leave you alone? Think that would work well for you?

Listen guy, if you haven't noticed the "Center" in the former USA is now so crazily so far right-authoritarian that anyone to the left of Albert Speer is a flaming Marxist.

So, you can think whatever you want about yourself, but you know history shows very clearly that matters not.

What amazes me is how few Jews notice how the template of public demonizing Liberals and Jews are identical and actually were pretty fully intertwined since Medieval Times right up until 1980.

From the identical linguistics of the "Democrat Lawyer" and the "Jew Lawyer" slurs to the amazing similarities of other past RW calumnies against Jews and their near identical structure to present calmunies against Liberals.

Examples? That's easy.

"Liberals are all traitors to America."

"Jews are all traitors to Germany."

"Liberals are always trying to destroy America with their secret evil plans, they never stop working towards it."

"Jews are always trying to destroy Germany with their secret evil plans, they never stop working towards it."

and on and on and on...

It's not like there aren't literally thousands of examples that I could keep listing without stopping for hours.

How could you not notice that and instead replicate the tepid mistake of the Jews and Liberals in 1930s Germany by reacting with such squishy softness and relativism?

Knowing what I now know about humanity in general...likely very easily.

Keep deluding yourself, guy. What is happening to Liberals and liberalism has nothing to do with you and yours, and no similarities to anything in the past, right?

First they came for the communists, but you aren't communist, so you won't speak out.

Next, they came for the Liberals, but heckfire, you're not a Liberal, so why speak out? They probably deserve it for being smug and smarmy, like those libtard intellectual Jews in RW Nazi Germany, right Bill?

Keep bending over backwards and supply the rope with which to hang yourself.

Liberals have their problems, faults, and flaws like everyone else.

But to assert, as you do, the false equivalnce that smug smarminess is as bad as the brutal barbarousnouss that comes of prejudice and ignorance, is staggeringly self-deceptive on your part.

False equivalence is what passes for "logic" in Totalitarian America these days, so it is not surprising that you osmosed that, marketing-style.

(that's what marketing is for, to exploit your subconscious and change your thinking without your being able to defend against it... through repetition and behavioral/mass psychology)

Next thing you'll tell me is that the Liberal German Social Democrats bear as much responsibility as the RW Nazis for 1933-1945.

Your a Liberal, beantown. It is so tragically comic to watch people like you run from it in fear. A self-hating Liberal, in fact.

Not to worry. There's a lot of that going around. Always has been and always will. No one wants to be on the side of the hunted, and the one thing both LW and RW Authoritarians agree on is that they both despise people like you and laugh when you cower from their propaganda, whatever you choose to call yourself.

Nothing ever changes, you see. Not in the larger sense. It's the same few plays acted over and over, with different players and now, oil-based plastic sets.

And you are perfctly replaying the role of the Liberal Juden in 1931 Germany. It's just that when you cowered from your Liberalism it struck so powerful a chord with the eyewitness accounts of the Rise of the RW Nazis and people's varying responses to it, that I simply had to point out one again that nothing changes and your commentary is actually quite commonplace throughout history.

Run from what you are. Pretend you are something else. You know it won't work, but you'll still do it anyway.

How human. How very human.

=================================================

P.S. Part of me wishes we could time travel to a "degenerate" 1931 Liberal Berlin cabaret, where you and I could listen to very very VERY similar conversations with me as the Liberal German Social Democrat in his cups and you as the self-hating Liberal Jew who doesn't want to believe what his eyes are seeing, beacause, you know, it can't be happening, you know it just can't be happening like that, and convinced it's going to be ok, because you see, he's not really even a Liberal or a practicing Jew, so why would the Nazis hate him?

Nothing changes about humanity, except energy budget and technological level.

Finally, please read "Defying Hitler" by Sebastian Haffner. There are several other surviving eyewitness accounts, but Haffner is a good place to start for a unique ground-level view of what happened in 1930s Germany, and by extension that which is happening, hopefully in a slightly less violent and barbarous form, in 21st Century America.

Thanks.

Sometimes I think my returns to CFN are more generated by the ebb and flow of the Corporate Propaganda, like the Phony Debt Ceiling Battle.

Considering the now and future relationship between we Peasants and the Aristocracy, one of the scariest things is knowing the power of mass psychology to easily manipulate large, technologically interconnected groups of people.

Think about it. For me, personally, I knew the whole Debt Celing "Debate" was a contrived Reality TV Show and bad joke. 100%. Knew it.

I also 100% knew where it was going to end before it started, with Neoliberal Obama "surrendering" to his Neocon pals and Aristocratic Bosses. (wink wink)

It didn't matter. Such was and is the force and pernicious saturation of Corporate Propaganda, my body and mind still reacted as if it was real and not a dumbshow for Virtual Slaves.

Wow, just wow. Even though I knew what they were dong I couldn't stop my autonomic reaction, so to speak. An Aristocrat's wet dream, we 21st Century Americans, so well trained and docile.

So easily manipulated by repetition and lies, so impulsively consumerist, so utterly bereft of critical thinking skills, so wholly ignorant of any history, so herd-like yet so convinced we are so free of mind.

21st Century America, if somehow the heavier parts of TLE are avoided, will become the template of how to handle peasantry in a plausibly deniable fashion for all future tyrants.

Cheez Doodles, NASCAR and Glenn Beck for everyone!

That's what's ultimately so sad about the Arab Spring. Those Arab Liberals are agitating for "American-style democracy".

Which is a laff riot since the former USA is no longer a democracy or a republic, and isn't even trying very hard to pretend it is anymore. (can you say American Super-Congress?)

It's lose-lose for them in the long run. De facto "Mubarak" slavery or American saccharine Virtual Slavery plus some beads and trinkets to pacify the Peasants (just like the former USA)?

This is the type of choice the Global Aristocracy has offered we Peasants for 8000 years (when they offered one at all besides the whip and boot). Classic and tragi-comic.

Poor Arabs, out from the frying pan and agitating to go into the fire. What else can they do?

Good luck with that "American-style democracy", Arabs. But just remember, the trinkets and beads aren't flowing like they used to. Even the dimwitted American Peasantry must learn to live with Rwadandan-level wealth and power distribution...and that means fewer beads and trinkets, fewer Cheez Doodles to gorge on.

But more Nazi-like-spectacles fused with sport, like our upcoming Nuremburg Rally that will signal the opening of the NFL season in a month.

All the SuperPatriots will stomp and clap and hoot and wave their flags. The Herd will do what they always do, go along to get along, not thinking much about it one way or the other. And God help anyone who isn't with the herd, let alone dare raise their voice against the authoritarian madness. A beating and probably a night in jail for "resisting arrest" or perhaps arrest for the usual "putting your face in front of a RW Cop or Authoritarian Follower's fist" standard so often applied to Authoritarians' "legal" victims.

Just like the original Nuremberg. Only the flags and marketing strategies are different. Both audiences by vast majorities believe(d) they were the freest people in the world, and spreading freedom around the world.

In both cases, 1936 Nuremburg and 9-11-11, nothing but NOTHING could be further from the truth. Not just some of the least free people on Earth, but a people now actively spreading a new and virulent, plausibly deniable, well-marketed and focus-grouped tyranny that is making a run at enslaving the world.

In 1936 it was RW National Socialism. In 2011 it is RW Corporate Socialism.

Wow! All I said is what I believe myself not to be,and you go off and tell me what I should be and what is going to happen to me when the authorities come to my door.

All I was trying to point out are my opinions based on my own life experience as to the characterizations of people with different political affiliations.

Haven't you ever heard of conservative Jews? My own uncle was one.

I'm fully aware that what I really am is not important to others, who will just label me a Jew. But I could give a shit what others think. What I think of myself is what's important to me.

What's this screed about Germany in the '30's? Jesus Christ, I was talking about American political characteristics.

I'll tell you what. If and when they come for me in the near future, "they" will get a mouthful of buckshot first. This is one Jew who's not gonna go gently into the night.

Self deceptive? Brother you think you know what it's like to be a Jew, but you have no idea - unless you're a Jew yourself. I'm fully aware of where I stand in society.

Your post shows me two things: First, you have no idea who I really am, and second, you prove my point about liberals. I am no liberal and I am no conservative. Are there any conservatives here who want to take me on as well?


You said it yourself a year (s?) ago: Tibetans deserve a Homeland while Whites deserve nothing.
-----------------------------------------
Tibetans deserve self determination, not necessarily an ethnic homeland.

Humans have no nature? Not even Buddha Nature?
-------------------------------------
If you actually knew anything about Buddhism, instead of just "having read a book once", you would know that Buddha Nature is not human.

Vlad,
At the end of the day, even you know that your thinking has lost the war of ideas, and long ago. What is the definition of insanity again?

How not so?
==

I see. So in eyes your eyes, a baby not yet born is just as deserving of capital punishment as a murderer who has been tried and convicted as a murder in a court of law.

I tell you what, you're very consistent in your stupidity. That's for sure.

UK Spring?

"Noone expected this. The so-called leaders who have taken three solid days to return from their foreign holidays to a country in flames did not anticipate this. The people running Britain had absolutely no clue how desperate things had become. They thought that after thirty years of soaring inequality, in the middle of a recession, they could take away the last little things that gave people hope, the benefits, the jobs, the possibility of higher education, the support structures, and nothing would happen. They were wrong. And now my city is burning, and it will continue to burn until we stop the blanket condemnations and blind conjecture and try to understand just what has brought viral civil unrest to Britain. Let me give you a hint: it ain’t Twitter.

I’m stuck in the house, now, with rioting going on just down the road in Chalk Farm. Ealing and Clapham and Dalston are being trashed. Journalists are being mugged and beaten in the streets, and the riot cops are in retreat where they have appeared at all. Police stations are being set alight all over the country. This morning, as the smoke begins to clear, those of us who can sleep will wake up to a country in chaos. We will wake up to fear, and to racism, and to condemnation on left and right, none of which will stop this happening again, as the prospect of a second stock market clash teeters terrifyingly at the bottom of the news reports. Now is the time when we make our choices. Now is the time when we decide whether to descend into hate, or to put prejudice aside and work together. Now is the time when we decide what sort of country it is that we want to live in. Follow the #riotcleanup hashtag on Twitter. And take care of one another." -Laurie Penny -24
*********************

I think there are more "choices"/"outcomes" than she outlines here, but she IS yet young. It almost seems that she's beginning to adjust the focus on the "class warfare" picture, but perhaps doesn't want to fully acknowledge it. Doing so means that choosing ANOTHER side [or embracing another shade of gray] is going to have to be part of an inclusive survival strategy.

A "waterfall of woe" indeed. Coming to a cityscape near you? Not until the hope of wealth without work evaporates. That is a meme that the TeeVee propagandists dare not let fade; it's the only thing that has enough distractionary power anymore in the land of everything-must-be-commodified.
It's not understood that this has all gone way too far, and that a desperate clinging to BAU is the only tool left. I believe that's what Kunstler's catchphrase of, "it's all good" reflects. (Of course there's always officially approved state violence, but that's the next plateau of escalation in the control "game".)

Sorry for the long post.
Ummm, Dow down 400 pts. at this time.

I didn't know you were with me. Could have fooled me.
==

I was never with you. I was hoping against better judgement that if I show you how stupid and wrong you are, you might finally get a clue. I say against better judgement, because once you're emotionally programmed it's pretty much over.

I would guess that Wall Street really controls the military/industrial complex as well. I'm not sure that one is fighting for supremacy with the other.
==

Exactly. The Wall Street mafia, the 'military/industrial complex' mafia, and government mafia are all the same. The Mises Institute has an excellent set of podcasts where Murray Rothbard details the history of this mafia going back a hundred years.

It looks they're getting ready for the 2012 Olympics in London?

http://www.london2012.com/

What's this screed about Germany in the '30's? Jesus Christ, I was talking about American political characteristics
==

Bill, don't pay attention to him. This is the same "Liberal" nazi PC police goon that attacked me and called me "nazi" because I defended Israel against his liberal MSM nazi fabrications and blood libels against Israel. This guy is pure shit.

Honk! :D

What a joy-filled link, Pucker! (It's better than a Twinkie [may its' name be praised].)
Wow!
And whassup with the weird, one-eyed, alien "mascots" some fuckwit dreamed up to represent the spirit-of-the-Olympics?
Do you think it might be to anthropomorphize the all-seeing eye of Sauron's TeeVee camera?

Good lawd, gettin' freakier with each passing day. Get out the corn-based snackies and gather 'round the tube; the water-cannons have been "authorized" for a bit of crowd maintenance in the land of the setting sun.

Hey Bill!
I appreciate your wading in to this slugfest, this week. It's interesting that your analysis of the liberal and the conservative personalities both ended as:
Conservative - unrealistic
Liberal - unrealistic

That shows us why our problems are bad and getting worse. Only the fringes (left and right) are getting their messages out - and the HUGE middle is going unrecognized.

Now, regarding:
"Whether or not those who discuss immigration are racists is not the issue, in fact, race is* irrelevant in the discussion. The issues are determining what an ideal or reasonable U.S. population is, and if we are exceeding it what are the likely consequences, and what we should do about it." -BTBill- *see below

*Change "is," in your statement to "SHOULD BE" and it will be much closer to the truth, from my perspective.

Because "racist" name calling is being used to prevent open and honest discussion and action on immigration into the US - almost constantly.

What's this screed about Germany in the '30's? Jesus Christ, I was talking about American political characteristics.

You didn't read my post with very much comprehension, did you? Could you truly have read it and asked such a question? I believe I made quite clear the relevance of 21st Century America as compared to 1930s Germany and gave specific concrete examples.

Look it up - my comments are still there if you missed them the first time. Just above us. I named several things including linguistic similarity of RW calumnies during the different time periods linking modern Amerixcan Liberals and 1930s Jews and Liberals, among other things.

So, what am I to think of your reply, so ill-thought out that it failed to even take note of major concepts and numerous examples?

Haven't you ever heard of conservative Jews? My own uncle was one.

Of course I have. No people are monolithic and if I recall at last polling, American Jewry polled at roughly 75% Liberal/Left 25% Conservative/Right.

Besides, almost nothing you have ever written here indicate few or any kind of conservative views on your part, certainly not that I have seen, and we both used to post much more frequently.

So, that's quite disingenuous on your part. Still running, I see.

Plus, even if you are a "conservative" of the Old School who's been hiding it, that still means as an "Eisenhower Republican" type, the current crop of even mainstream RW pundits and followers perceives you as just to the left of Joe Stalin.

Why did I just repeat that to you? You made no indication you heard or understood the first time I said it to you.

Or did you just ignore it on purpose because it didn't fit in with your reply? Are you being deliberately obtuse? (tip of the hat to Stephen King)

I love this one:

I'll tell you what. If and when they come for me in the near future, "they" will get a mouthful of buckshot first. This is one Jew who's not gonna go gently into the night.

Yeah yeah yeah, blah blah blah. EVERYONE says that. But if everyone acted as bad-ass they talked, then no tyrants could have ever gained footholds anywhere in human history. Instead human history is almost one unbroken line of successful oppression, deception, and very successful enslavements.

Am I the only one who is self-aware enough to say that I have no idea what I would actually do in such a situation, no matter how tough I might hope I could be or how firmly I might be certain I would do as you say?

So, I'll take your words with a rather large pinch of salt, knowing that 95% of all tough-talk heard anytime, anywhere is bullshit.

Besides, if you cannot recognize the relevance of 1930s German poliics to 21st Century American politics, even at this late and obvious point in time (maybe lbendet can explain it to you more diplomatically, you soft libtard), what makes you think you will recognize a kinder and gentler Corn Pone Hitler v2.0, especially designed and marketed to your hopes, fears, and exploitable weaknesses (same as any other product is sold to us)?

One requisite for fighting tyranny - you have to have some period of time between the time you recognize it and time it falls on you. Otherwise it gets the drop on you, and you're standing in line on the train platform before you even figured out what was going on.

How are you going to do that? You believe Star Trek is just around the corner. You believe It Can't Happen Here. (sound familiar)

Might as well believe in Santa and the Easter Bunnny, or that a Just and Loving (or even a sane)God ordered the Israelites to commit genocide on the Cannaanites and others, as is clearly described in the Old Testament.

You may indeed be very different from your writings on this blog, but from your writings on this blog that are all I have to go on, you are not much different from anyone else when it comes to noticing the onset of totlitarianism.

Here's a joke for you that you won't fully get:

Q: What does almost everyone do the day after Hitler takes over?

A: The same thing they did they day before.

HINT: In order to get the joke, you have to imagine like you lived in 1933, when most people except some Libtards, Socialists, Commies and Jews thought Hitler was either a great guy or you know, just a little excessive, but still good for the nation.

I also 100% knew where it was going to end before it started, with Neoliberal Obama "surrendering" to his Neocon pals and Aristocratic Bosses. (wink wink)
==

You're such a fscking clown, Hancock. Now you claim to know the whole thing is basically a puppet show, and yet even now you keep attacking the puppeteer's fake right hand puppet(s) through the puppeteer's fake left hand puppet(s).

You don't know shit, you fscking goon. If you knew anything you wouldn't be attacking Bill for not claiming allegiance to any of these fake puppets put out by your puppet masters.

God ordered the Israelites to commit genocide on the Cannaanites and others, as is clearly described in the Old Testament.
==

Here we go again.

Let me ask you, Hancock, who were the Canaanites? Who and what did they represent?

I have given this serious thought and based on your arguments I have had a change of heart: all races are equal, and deserve respect.

Dang it TooTsie - you've reincarnated again.

I can't help what Newsweek does - they are a private organization. You know, like FOXNews.

My opinion as regards energy use is that we should have started drastically cutting down after the '73 oil shock - whether Anthropogenic Global Warming is *"TRUE!!!"* or not.

S&P was responsible for downgrading our bonds. Reports are that a bipartisan consensus on capitol hill is trying to open a can of whup' ass on S&P.

==============
None of that matters, TooTrue, in the face of a US population that may already be past the point of sustainability (without oil) and that is GROWING at 3,000,000 per year.

Because only that has the ability to take the US slowly down to third world status - before mostly ending human life on Earth.

Which is worse than an "ugly" picture of Ms. Bachman, believe it or not.

Here's some rare commonsense from Britain about the whole issue:
=================

Vlad, I agree entirely that political correctness has reached an absurd level when the public is kept in the dark concerning basic data on the perpetrators of crimes.

When I first became aware of the violence in London my first question was "who is doing this and for what reason?" After considerable reading I came across the words "primarily minority youths." Still I wondered which minority or minorities?

I read the article you linked and my first thought was "Vlad must woo and marry this Katherine Birbalsingh woman (the article's author) for here is a kindred spirit. She is incredulous that something so obviously basic and relevant as the race of a crime's perpetrator must be pried out of authorities with a crowbar.

And, in your related post, concerning "profiling" I agree entirely that "good cops profile." In fact to do otherwise strikes me as utter insanity. Even my life's work as a financial analyst involved a form of profiling. We called it a "sanity check." You looked in all the usual places where errors typically occurred before you finalized a report.

Ms KB spoke of interviewing a police officer who gave her ball-park percentages on the ethnicity of gun-crime perpetrators. (In a sane world such data would be accurate, not ball-park, and readily available.) Turning pink with embarrassment the officer said 80% were black on black gun crimes and of the other 20% three fourths were black on white gun crimes.

Assuming these numbers were anywhere near accurate, if I were investigating a gun crime I would start in the black community.

I was wrong - profiling is intrinsically evil.

Let me ask you, Hancock, who were the Canaanites? Who and what did they represent?
================

Oh come on Obtusela, everyone knows the answer to these questions. The Canaanites were CIA operatives working for the Vatican.

Imposter alert. First Asoka and now me. Let the buyer beware. My brand is impecable. This one seems a real dud though. Zero imagination. I deserve better.

If you get canned, you can't go back and use the same name again. That Asoka has now done so calls into question whether he was ever banned at all. Black Loki - Bloki.

So do Whites get self determination too?

Insanity is having a welfare state with open borders.

An iconic picture if ever there was. Enoch Powell was right. Whites are being beaten and humiliated at will by hate filled minorities. And the police's hands are tied by Liberal Lunacy. All kinds of excuses are given, but it comes down to the fact that the Blacks and the Muslims didn't come as immigrants but colonists who intend to conquer. Anyway, check it out, it's worth a thousand words:

http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2011/08/forced_to_strip.php

"When we rubbed horns concerning the Earths' human overpopulation problem you turned your nose up to my suggested solution..."
-snafu-

Actually, SNAF, I did no such thing - in my mind. I pointed out a couple of logistical and political problems with your idea - in the spirit of brainstorming. And I swear I remember saying that I would "be on board" with your idea if you could figure out how to pull it off.
I'll stand by that statement, 'till yet.

Now, regarding my being:
"....absolutely convinced that stopping the illegal invasion into the US is the panacea which will save humankind. In my opinion your stop the illegals position has induced you to paint yourself into the corner from whence you are now attempting to extricate yourself without conceding any ground." -snafu-

I have shifted my position. While still remaining 100% opposed to ILLEGAL immigration - and working hard to stop it in the real world - I now acknowledge that LEGAL immigration is a MUCH larger problem - going forward.

I don't see myself as "painted in," as you put it.
I've just broadened my perspective.
I continue to paint in that corner, though, while I work on painting the whole US population house.
hehe
=============
And you may be one of many who say, "Work On Global Population," while ignoring the US.

That's not the way I think. One crisis at the time, man - I can impact Georgia politics on immigration and work hard on National politics.
I can't do anything about Global politics.

There are good groups dedicated to Global birth control and other issues. I'd enjoy hearing about them - on CFN. Maybe I'd learn enough to join a good Global Population group, too.

So 80% + 20% = 100% of gun crime is committed by 2% of the population. Those must be rough numbers indeed!

"your opinion doens't matter"
-wiiwii-

Maybe oui, maybe non, wii?

Bachman, anthropogenic global warming, and the S&P downgrade are all things that the HATED Left is doing to your BELOVED, TEA Party/Right.
Correct, wii?

Whereas defense of out of control immigration is coming strongly from the Right Wing (National Chamber of Commerce) and coming strongly from the Left Wing (La Raza and the ACLU).

And "racism" stops honest discussion in a way that:
Bachman's ugly
The TEA's obstructed
The S&P's fradulent

Can not do.

Don't butt in, Q. The question(s) was for Handcock.

100% of gun crime is committed by 2% of the population. Those must be rough numbers indeed!
==================

Read the link and email your scepticism to the author.

From the video footage I saw of the rioting in Britain, there were a lot of pale faces in there. I think they were mostly looking for a new pair of trainers and a flatscreen though, rather than, ya know, social justice.

Turk, the 2% figure was for all of Britain. For London the 2007 estimated figures are:

Blacks 10.6%
Whites 69.1%

Putting it another way, blacks comprise 13.3% of the combined black/white population. See source below:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_groups_in_London

"As I recently heard an author say (but can't remember who), "The human mind is a lawyer, not a scientist." -Hancock-

Very nice post, Hancock, containing this quote. I can't find much with which to disagree.

Except (you knew that was coming, right?)

You do seem to be blaming the losers of the Civil War for acting and voting like - well - losers.

The point is, we can't help it - as a group and a region. We "circled the wagons" after reconstruction - and we have continued to do it - as hard times remain in the back of our spiritual DNA. Even Yankees who move down here get subsumed, sometimes, and begin to vote GOP, in spite of themselves.

To come full circle - you will always argue that Black Slavery was somehow unique to the American South and had to be defeated by force of arms, at the cost of 1,000,000 dead.

I will always argue that Slavery - of ALL types - was a common feature of human history until the early 1800's worldwide. And that it would have ended in the South with the collapse of cotton agriculture - or for some other reason -
and without war.

And that a smaller, weaker Northern-only annex of the US would not have intervened in WWI - leading directly to Hitler.

And now, sadly, leading to dominance of what you call RW Corporate Socialism - -

Which can be referred to by another name -
American Style Free Market Capitalism.
=============
Oh, btw, cool quote. Found the author for us,
Jonathan Haidt. Pretty interesting link, too.
http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/03/denial-science-chris-mooney

Thanks for the heads up there, Vlad. And it's nice to know that goofy Picasso comment wasn't made by the real Vlad Kranz.

I'm confused. I actually agree with Vlad that some of Picasso's work is crap. For example, there is a Picasso sculpture up in San Francisco called "The Orator" that is crappy looking and sloppy in construction. I can't believe that the Legion of Honor paid millions for it. But other art like "Guernica" actually capture the horrors of the Spanish civil war.

There is a big exhibition of Picasso coming to San Francisco from Paris this autumn, but I'm skipping it because I don't think it will be worth the price of admission. Besides that, Picasso was rather evil in the way he treated his family.

That being said, there are some wonderful modern artists and some that are horrible.

SJmom


Also up for debate...

Do cigarettes cause cancer?

Is the earth 6000 years old?

Is gravity just a theory?

From the video footage I saw of the rioting in Britain, there were a lot of pale faces in there. I think they were mostly looking for a new pair of trainers and a flatscreen though, rather than, ya know, social justice.
================

You must have X-ray vision. In the videos I saw most of the "youths" had their faces partially covered.

As to motivations the NYT said the riots were against new austerity measures. Maybe that's so for some motivation purists but I think you're right, those "youths" just want to set some fires, kick in some windows and grab some free merchandise.

I'm taking off now and I'll be back tomorrow late afternoon. I'm going to reply to Hancock then.

Mika, thank you for your posts; I know you get it. Don't worry about me, I can handle myself fine when I get riled up.

Trying to gain perspective on rioting and civil unrest on the other side of the world can be difficult. Viewing footage doesn't bring clarity. For myself, I sympathize first with the police.

The fact is that my brain tends to prefer order over chaos, instinctively. This is probably a universal human perceptive pitfall. Absent reflection or real intelligence, we see simply the contrast between chaos and order and instinctively sympathize with order.

The order of the police, their uniforms, simple-minded objectives, clear motivation are all attractive and unambiguous. The disorder, unclear motives, and ramshackle appearance of rioters seem un-attractive and ambiguous.

But the reality is that there is a problem with police brutality, the profiling of citizens based on appearance, going back a decade or more, but, in the last decade especially as civil law governing the random stop & search turned from presumption of innocence to presumption of guilt with "Anti-terror" legislation. This expands the explanation for people like me, who otherwise have no background or context when viewing the situation.

As it turns out, the cops have been acting like pigs in this area for a long, long time. If you oppress young people enough, deny them a voice, a recourse, or similar, you get this result: as one said when asked why they were rioting: "You wouldn't be interviewing me if we weren't rioting."

I was wondering why a couple folks weren't posting.
Everything goes that is connected the fabian etc.
Yes my favorite posters posts got deleted.
Well at least the dumbass' are gone. for now.

and hopefully the Badasses are still around.
I am starting reading from the bottom up so I will find out in a few mins.

Turkle said, "From the video footage I saw of the rioting in Britain, there were a lot of pale faces in there. I think they were mostly looking for a new pair of trainers and a flatscreen though, rather than, ya know, social justice."

Well, what are people clamoring for more now, seeing the media pictures? Social justice for victims of police brutality and excesses of domestic anti-terror legislation that allows for random harassment and body searches?

What is really horrifying to modern people is the spectacle of so much fine technology abused. Look at what they're doing to that Big-screen TV! Oh, my goodness, that STOREFRONT was damaged! That Car on fire! How barbaric!

Postmodern people are in love, let alone simply "co-dependent" with the various apparati of their daily lives that supply them with context for their value assignments.

I think people respond viscerally to the abuse of a CAR or a TV or a STOREFRONT because those are the trinity of holy things in their lives which give them succor. Without a TV, that generous fellow, telling you what an ace you are for buying brand X or Y, or, giving you the thrill of being alive through an X-Box game, how empty and stupid and hollow your existence would be.

Without a CAR, most people's lives would be dreadfully immobile- they would be restricted to their awful, mind-numbing neighborhoods, filled with ugly and suspicious neighbors. Without the daily seduction of speed, loud music, and the sensation of raw power under their control- life would suck!

Without the STOREFRONT, without the daily SHOPPING experience, where would they get that daily re-enforcement of their foraging and gathering instincts? Without that godlike perspective of having control over their choices, and the self-esteem that comes from the gathering and preference-exercise their hind-brains love so much, life would suck!

"I have given this serious thought and based on your arguments I have had a change of heart: all races are equal, and deserve respect."

Great. This means that you now have absolutely, and I mean absolutely, nothing to talk about. Exit, stage left.
-----------------------------------
Second! there must by lots of nice white supremist websites that would find Vlad a wonderful addition.

So Buddha wasn't human? Or are you saying humans don't have Buddha Nature? That it's not our real nature? Oh Dale...you've done it again! Put one foot in your mouth and the other one up your ass. And then exchanged foot position.

No, hierarchy must be maintained. It's not the Policeman's job to make nice with the "youfs". The punks have to learn respect and earn respect by obeying the Law. But they wont and they should never have been brought in. And Enoch Powell said, the streets would run red with blood. And that God help the White Man if and when the Blacks get the upper hand.

Or do you enjoy seeing White boys stripped by Black Thugs? The clothes were too big - it wasn't even redistribution of wealth but just pure humiliation. It was done to women too.

the denigration of multi-culturalism - Turk

I shit all over the idea myself. Encouraging newcomers to stay apart culturally is about the stupidest idea I've ever heard for a multitude of reasons. And I have personal experience with different cultures with my parents having come from a desperately poor, totally corrupt, organized crime ridden, priest infested place after WW2 (Italy). And my wife is Chinese.

Why is it idiotic? It shouldn't need that much elaboration but seeing as we're into it: what you want within your national borders is to encourage the idea of a commonality of citizenship and to encourage people to see each other, if not as kin, at least as fellow countrymen. To do otherwise by means of policies or ideologies that encourage people to identify themselves with ethnicities and nationalities and cultures from elsewhere is to play with social dynamite.

In this place we can't even run a bilingual and bicultural country without a great deal of tension, animosity and occasional deadly violence. To think that we can manage a multiplicity of cultures along with the tribalism and division that would ensue is pure, unadulerated stupidity. One would think that the high and mighty liberals that push this nonsense should know better and they probably do. So the only conclusion is that they push it out of malice towards their own country.

Our existing Anglo Saxon culture is one that, to date, newcomers from a wide variety of backgrounds have blended into within one or two generations of their arrival without a lot of difficulty. I'm a typical example. So is my wife. Why we would want to upend this process of acculturation and assimilation is beyond me.

Actually it isn't beyond me. Liberals push this bullshit so that they can tell themselves and us that they are oh so morally superior to everyone else. See, they're working diligently against this countriy's national interests. To them this sets them apart. It puts them on a morally elevated plane. They're working to whittle away at that oh so repugnant Anglo Saxonism, that horrible, parched, evil, judgmental culture that inflicted so much misery. It's the worst there is.

If only liberals were as well informed as they think. They'd see that it's the worst except for all the others. If they were as smart as they always tell us they'd see foreign cultures for what they are. But they don't. Why? Beats me. Maybe it's as Eleuthero(?) says, liberals talk the talk but they don't walk the walk. They stick with folks that look, talk and smell like themselves.

Trust me Turk, we quaint little "ethnics" that smug liberals so insufferably condescend to aren't just about our adorable ethnic costumes and ethnic dances and sprightly ethnic music and stinky, spicy, garlicky ethnic grub. Culture goes deeper than that.

But let's simplify so we can get our arms around this issue. What do you think is the most important cultural issue? Actually let me answer that. IMO it's how we men treat our wives and sisters, whether we beat them. Or not.

Don't believe me? Read the papers. Honour killings happen here fairly frequently. Honour killings of girls and women in Italy are still within living memory. Do you believe the Hollywood stereotype of the Italian mamma ruling the household with rolling pin in hand? Think again. The father is the Emperor, the first born son is the Prince. I've got female relatives that practically lived in purdah when their parents brought them to this country so terrified were the old folks that their daughters would go out and get preggers and disgrace them.

Multi-culturalism is boneheaded. And as much as our intellectual betters - liberals that is - revile Anglo Saxon culture and work to undermine it they haven't succeeded. Why? Because liberals are dead wrong about it. Three cheers for les maudits blokes. They had some really great ideas.

And the imaginary past isn't a figment of Ronald Reagan's imagination. How do I know? I lived through it. Back then, believe it or not, Dad had a job. And we had industries where men worked and not abandoned, boarded up factories. And now? Nothing but the dead and dying back in my little town.

1.belief in or doctrine asserting racial differences in character, intelligence, etc. and the superiority of one race over another or others: racist doctrine also, typically, seeks to maintain the supposed purity of a race or the races

to which you add:
There is little that might be taken as pejorative in element 1. of the definition.
-----------------------------------

Qshtik.....really? you don't see anything that might be taken as pejorative there.

You remind me of a time I was at a neighborhood party and there was one black guy there, he, I, and another white guy were talking and it turned out both of them attended the University of Idaho. The white guy, totally oblivious to the irony of what he was saying, blurted out "When I was at U of I, I never experienced any racism" to which I replied "could that be because you and 95% of the rest of the student body was white", as he looked at me blankly the black guy was almost falling over laughing.

Qshtik, you just don't get it do you?

So Buddha wasn't human? Or are you saying humans don't have Buddha Nature? That it's not our real nature
-----------------------------------
Dust off your reading glasses Vladdie boy and go back and read what I actually said.

Interesting points, but I find your analysis to be a little too abstract. I doubt that the rioters were sophisticated enough to consciously target these supposed post-modern totems for destruction, nor does this burning and looting really have anything to do with what supposedly kicked off the riots.

The rioters could have instead picketed or blocked police stations, e.g. those who were supposedly the objects of protest.

They could have violently attacked police officers, not that I condone this but it would make sense given their stated motives.

Instead, they went on a perverse shopping spree, smashing in store fronts, grabbing expensive merchandise, and burning down businesses, harming the livelihood of innocent merchants who had nothing to do with any of this.

Now tell me, exactly what does stealing Addidas and a Samsung 40" have to do with fighting against police brutality? What does burning down a 100 year-old furniture store accomplishment for their cause?

I am not shocked or horrified to see boxes of sneakers or flatscreen TV's carried away by hoodlums or cars on fire. The whole spectable makes for some quite entertaining news from afar. I just think that it accomplishes absolutely nothing w.r.t. to the protestors' stated motives.

yes I know it should have been "were" pendantic you do well, subtlely or analysis.....well, not so much.

BTW --- what is going in in AA society these days is not a reflection of racial inferiority, so all the quotes (true or otherwise) regarding crime rates etc., are meaningless.

Culture is one thing, race is another. The U.S. has the highest gun violence, incarceration, etc. etc. of any industrialized country in the world.....does that mean you are racially inferior? No, it means you live in a society with a cultural/social problem.

I shit all over the idea myself.
---------------------------------------
based on the infrequency of which you actually have an idea.....I would be careful not to shit on it.

You're a bonehead too. REAL Anglo Saxons refused absolutely to breed with the Indians - unlike the Spanish and the French. And then people wonder why the English won North America. And later they refused to breed or at least recognzie those who bred with the Blacks. This is how they kept the continent. And now we have people like you - unworthy sons and heirs as the Chinese would say.

Here is the Text of Enoch Powell's "Rivers of Blood" speech. One of the last real statesmen of Britain, he was drummed out of office for it. But he told the Truth - to cowards. His is vindicated.

Hey Toots, another wild day on Wall Street huh?

Although your FORD stock gave back more than half of what it gained during yesterday's big up-move, look on the bright side ... FORD was a relative tower of strength vs "the market." While the DOW lost 4.62% Ford ONLY gave up 4.58%. BWAH HA HA HA HA HA HA chortle snort. Ooops, some beer came out of my nose.

So tell me Cash, how can the government change how families within different cultures are structured? Unless the law is being violated and this is discovered, the government has no right or reason to interfere. I would think that as a so-called "conservative," that should be quite clear to you. Aren't "you people" all about the sanctity of the familial unit?

You're very off in what is the most important cultural aspect. It isn't how women are treated. It's spoken language, by a longshot, e.g. if you can only speak Spanish, integrating into mainstream American culture will be difficult. But if you beat your wife and speak English, you can still be in like Flynn. Plenty of white Anglo-Saxons treat their women like s***, too. This isn't some unique trait of other cultures.

"They stick with folks that look, talk and smell like themselves."

Wow, what a HUGE surprise there. Then they are no different in this regard than everyone else. Humans generally prefer to be around others who share similar values, culture, and (usually) ethnicity. It isn't some unique trait of liberals, more like part of "human nature."

That said, liberals are the MOST likely to have diverse groups of friends, because, by definition of the term, they are more tolerant of others and their differences. (Tolerance was always a virtue of classical liberalism.) And they are generally interested in other cultures. I live in one of the most liberal areas in the US, and I can tell you that many people have quite diverse sets of friends (including myself). And there are many inter-racial relationships. So much for your theory.

As for the rest, I think you have some anger management and paranoia issues. You setup all kinds of strawmen and then scorch them with a flamethrower. I'd rather talk specifics. Who exactly is attacking your beloved Anglo-Saxon culture? What are their names? What are the groups? What do they actually say? How many are there? Are they effective? Do they have mainstream acceptance? Why do you feel personally under attack?

Few people here understand internal Canadian politics and culture, as this is mostly an American blog. You need to be more specific and spell things out, or it just amounts to a lot of hand waving and finger pointing at your typical target, the good-for-nothing liberals and their multi-culturalism.

And your simplistic, unspoken formulation of conservative = good and liberal = bad is just complete horses*** and based upon nothing more than personal prejudice. I'm not even going to bother picking it apart.

Hey, Q, did you notice when the credit rating was downgraded, the market went down, and every single private company lost value? Private sector holdings were being taken to the cleaners. Where did people's money get parked?

Why, people voted with their dollars. Did they vote for the private sector? No. They bought USA treasuries, demonstrating their full faith in BIG GOVERNMENT to repay with interest.

You don't have the right to tell others with whom they may breed. This isn't the Third Reich, and you're not in charge. It is simply none of your damn business.

Yes you said "you would know the Buddha Nature is not human". Caught you in another lie Dale. Don't you ever get sick of it?

"REAL Anglo Saxons"

How can you tell? Is there some kind of special handshake?

People can do what they want - but there are consequences. Their colored offspring are not White. It's as simple as that. And in the good old days, the offending Whites was a pariah. Thus are standards maintained and culture transmitted. Don't get me wrong, it's a horribly flawed system that always fails in the end as it did in Ancient Egypt and India. We've got to stop doing this and just do our own dirty work.

Q.,
I think that smart investor-guy is now going under the pen name of peepee (or something akin to that).
I hope they're sitting down to weewee before they view the market stats; we wouldn't want any stains on the furniture.

So the people in a society have no responsibility for what happens in that "society" - as if there is a forest but no trees?

Blacks are not asked to take any responsibility nor do they volunteer to do so. Yet you consider them equal? Not taking responsibility is the mark of the markedly inferior - whatever their color.

Their crime stats aren't just outrageous here but in Europe as well - and Africa. There is no common factor here except THEM.

Hey, Vlad, culture has changed. What a concept. Culture tends to do that over time, sometimes radically so. It is now perfectly acceptable in America and most places to marry someone not of your race and procreate with them, making an inter-racial baby which is, Heaven's to Betsy not white! (Well, it is half white.) Things aren't going back to how they used to be. So why don't you just accept it, given that it does you no harm if a white guy marries a Chinese lady?

Anyways, who made you King of White Racial Purity? Are you a card-carrying member of the Nazi Party?

You have no power to change anything, only a bunch of tired, mean-spirited ideas that you continually regurgitate here, judging others harshly for not following your arbitrary racial precepts and codes.

What I'd suggest is getting some other hobby other than race baiting. Just leave that big bag of negativity aside for awhile. You'll be a happier person, I guarantee.

I can't force you to do this, but you're going to be one sad, old man at the end of your life if all you got out of it was that whites shouldn't breed with brown people.

Yes culture has changed - for the worse. We are going down the toilet towards a degraded version of Africa. Traditional Africans loathe American Blacks - hate to tell you. I used to work with alot of them.

Traditional African village morality (old ladies looking out the window ready to yell at the kids and go tell on them), polygamy, lots of leisure for men, extended family that helps take care of the kids, loose marriages where the husband is not expected to support the wife and kids entirely - has much to reccomend it even though it is not compatible with Western Culture of today or yesterday and would be antathema to feminists if they only but knew. But they prefer to hate on White Men.

And Cash thinks they're going to blend in with us - HA! White Kids are being dragged down by their degraded music and videos in second rate thug copies of Black Thugs. The ethnic group that put this crap on the radio and tv has alot to answer for.

As usual, you completely changed the subject. We someone went from discussing your disagreement with interracial marriage to a screed about African culture and American rap and, presumably, the Joos who foist hip-hop upon the hapless US youth.

Are you schizophrenic, or what?

My critique of Powell's speech isn't that it was beyond the pale or provocative. I don't believe in cowering to the forces of political correctness, and he appears to have spoken out of genuine good will. Bullying a politician out of office over a speech as thoughtful as his is Orwellian.

My critique is subtler. He muddied the waters. He had a number of entirely legitimate, grave concerns about Britain's ability to assimilate immigrants, maintain social order, protect the rights of ethnic Britons, and maintain equity before the law and an open society. His proposed solution of abolishing all protections against racial discrimination in business, however, was problematic. Such libertarian, i.e. classically conservative, solutions have a history of enabling malicious racists whose attitudes and conduct truly are beyond the pale. Mixing that sort of doctrinaire laissez-faire conservatism with more germane critiques of what amounted to de facto affirmative action and tyrannical political correctness weakened his credibility. Bolstering his case with the paranoid rantings of bog-standard racists was even worse.

You need a new scriptwriter.

I somewhat sympathize with posters who find the following out of context and irrelevant to the major issues of the day. I just finally had to get it in, a late response to previous comments by Vlad and Buck.

Mohammed Ali has been overrated as a great fighter. He was a great personality, a courageous young man, great for boxing, and it was hard not to like his unparalled brashness. Let's look at the record.

Ali may have approached greatness in the Frazier fights, but even there Frazier won the first fight and the others were close. The Foreman win elevated Ali's status on a global scale, as did the battles with Frazier. One can make the argument that it was essentially these four fights that made Ali "great".

The fixed Liston fights were a critical juncture in Ali's career. Sonny Banks had already decked Ali sometime back (although he lost), and in the year or so before the Liston fights, Henry Cooper almost knocked Ali out in the fourth round. The bell saved him. Ali was also given a heartily booed decision at the Garden over Doug Jones in that same time frame. Thus the subsequent "taking no chances" Liston fix, with Frankie Carbo and Blinkey Palermo now in the picture, who I believe ultimately answered to Sam Giancana.

Chuck Wepner, Sonny Banks, Joe Frazier, and Henry Cooper all had Ali down. He lost to Leon Spinks. He could barely handle Ken Norton. His early bouts against the "chumps" resulted in relatively early KOs or TKOs. As the competition increases, and in many cases is still questionable, his bouts go more and more to decisions and late round TKOs. Ali a good or maybe even a very good fighter, yes. Ali a great fighter, absolutely not.
Sugar Ray Robinson, now there's a great fighter.

Now for the Klitschkos. You could frame a house with boards like those. I mean, you know that it's not rigor mortis because they ARE moving and breathing. What is that saying, stiff as a what?
Ali and Frazier both would have whittled them down to toothpicks. Let me be the first to crown them "the Planks of Pugilism".

Oh, btw, when Ali fought Cleveland Williams he won in three rounds. A year and a half earlier, Williams had been shot by a Texas policeman, and entered the fight with one kidney, ten to fifteen feet of missing intestines, and a diminished left leg caused by the bullet's nerve damage.

IMO, the Ali story may be the greatest hype story in sports. I'm recalling the phrase, "cult of personality".


I'm on board with your sentiment. Race & immigration, ad nauseam.

If TSHTF & we enter into a US or worldwide depression, I'm certain Earth will see dramatic decreases in energy use and birthrates.

It's easy to be critical; just follow Fox News Entertainment lead.

Let's read your plan for turning things around and continuing to sustain the unsustainable; economic growth in a world of limited natural resources.

I enjoy reading your perspectives.

Hancock,
Just got back and saw your post.

Very simply put, I always say there will be a point when the mink gloves come off.

Right now it seems perfectly normal for a Republican candidate to say he wants to secede from the union, as he and his minions want to shrink the Federal government, hold a prayer session to pray for a better economy--oh yeah, what ever happened to God helps those who help themselves?

Or a party who wants to undo 60 years of history?
You saw what happened in Wisconsin with the huge money from the Koch brothers and the Karl Rove organization to keep these anti-democratic types in charge--you know da ones who want to appoint people to take over elected officials posts in case of "emergencies".

Depressingly, on the other side we have Bernanke saying interest rates won't be raised for two years. So I guess that tells you there are no fundamental economic realities that determine interest rates. It's all about the manipulation..

A French bank is in trouble and the Stock market plummets over another 500 points. Well sure I'm glad I'm not in that game anymore. --whew

>and they should never have been brought in

Interesting topic. Why indeed were they brought in? I believe for the same reason illegal immigration has been allowed to take place in the U.S. -- more consumers for the junk the corporations need to sell in order to show growth from your to year.

Vlad, you take any group of young people with NO possibility of meaningful pursuits, and they're a powder keg waiting for a spark. These yuts have no skills, no culture of work (no positive culture of any kind), even if there were jobs they wouldn't get them; and there are no jobs anyway. They have no stake in the society. I agree with you -- they should never have been brought in. Brittain needs a new Australia

First, I'm not a "conservative".

Second, my mother tongue isn't English. It's an Italian dialect that's as different from Italian as Spanish or Portuguese. So I speak from experience. No matter. We'll differ on this.

Who exactly is attacking your beloved Anglo-Saxon culture? - Turk

Where do I even start? Our liberal intelligentsia, government policy as articulated by Shelia Finestone - past Liberal Secretary of State for Multiculturalism: "Canada has no national culture". As articulated by the man in the street ie a letter writer a while back to the Toronto Star (a liberal newspaper): "you cannot tell what Canada's culture is or isn't".

To which I reply yes, especially when you refuse to see what's plainly under your nose.

As explained by Richard Gwyn a well known columnist - “Most nation-states are defined by their ethnicity. Americans know, or think they know, what it is to be American. Canada's equivalent is a vague reformist liberalism, or a widespread acceptance of the ideals of tolerance and pluralism that can easily shade into non-judgementalism about anything.”

As exemplified by the shitstorm brewing in a Toronto school which is making the school cafeteria available for Friday prayers for Muslim students during lunch hour and off limits to non Muslims.

We spent a long time carefully eradicating Christianity from our public schools to the point where you're looking for severe trouble if you so much as breathe the word "Christmas" on school property. But Islam is apparently OK. The school board explained they're bound by human rights legislation. Sure.

Are they effective? Do they have mainstream acceptance? - _Turk

You bet they're effective and you bet they have mainstream acceptance. Ask an American what it is to be American and he'll sing you America the Beautiful, a Brit will give a stadium riot, an Italian will give you la dolce vita, a Canadian will look at you uncomprehending. We've pretty much scrubbed ourselves of any notion of what it is to be Canadian to the point where for most of my life English Canada has been torturing the issue. What is Canada's identity we ask. Torrents have wbeen written on the issue and I cannot remember one piece that explained what was simply under everyone's nose.

What are the markers? Language for one (here we agree) where 80% of us speak English, we read English lit, we abide by common law, we vote for a Westmister style Parliament, we're a successor state to the British Empire. The defence of which in two world wars cost us enormously. We're tried by juries of our peers. And other things. A thousand years of Anglo Saxon tradition and culture and suddenly we're blind to it.

I have to go. More later.

J, my plan is considered too radical and unrealizable. It involves decreasing the world's population by at least three or four billion and our population by at least two hundred million. If I had the answers, you could bound me in a nutshell and count me king of infinite space.(W.S.)

Thank you, Patrizia. I'm certain that it would be wonderful and exhilarating.

I thought Canadian identity was skiing, furry hats, saying "eh," and "Oh Canada."

Cash,

Good points and interesting information that I've never heard before. Your posts are a lot more meaty and interesting when you present specifics rather than generic ire directed at the Liberals. (in my opinion)

I didn't know Canada had a Multi-Culti Minister. That's so....Canadian.

I agree with you that multi-culturalism taken to the Nth degree can result in absurd situations, like a sort of self-flagellation of the mainstream culture for no good reason.

I don't think that preferring one religious group over another or giving religions special privilege within public institutions is appropriate within a secular society. If you've read my previous posts, I hope you know I'm no fan at all of religion (any of them), and I favor a strict separation of church and state.

If you're not a conservative, then, by the same token, I'm not a liberal. I'm more of a pessimistic doomer and bemused observer. I think modern civilization is irreparably fated to collapse. As I understand it, traditional liberalism (or socialism to which it is sometimes equated) is generally far more optimistic about humanity's prospects and perfectability.

Fran Leibowitz and Susan (Whites are the Cancer of Humanity) Sontag were lovers. Is that not the limit? Manhattan deserves to sink under the waves, only that can purify the sins of that place.

I don't think he wanted them there at all. But if he said that if they must be they should find their own level, than I agree with that too. It's quite obvious to any objective person (no liberals in other words) that Blacks are a far less gifted race and can never compete in school or work with Whites or Asians.

This terrifies you because you have lost your faith in Christ and worship the ideal of the noble savage - Blacks in other words. They are unworthy of your worship. Look up not down - for God's sake if not your own.

Do you want to hear what I think you deserve, Vlad?

Well a couple of Pakis died last night - God help the Blacks if the Muslims riot against them. The police are carefully watching White groups. In a deep sense that's the purpose of the police now - to protect Minorites from the White revenge they so richly deserve. Their behavior, both Black and Muslim, has been atrocious in Britain and throughout Europe. There can be no place for them now. Any attempt to bring more in or to keep them is just Tyranny.

A noble experiment? No, a brutal cynical attempt to destroy traditional Britain forever - and retain power for Labor as one ex Labor offical admitted a few months ago.

Hey why not? Cash fantasized about "gutting" me. What's your fantasy?

Yes Conservatives are realisticly pessimistic about human nature and liberals are starry idealists. Their idealism that anything is possible greatly hastens the doom of any given civilization - that and the sexual immorality and subsequent sterility. Bringing in millions of hostile aliens is classic hubris - now followed by nemesis. It will be here soon. Get out of the cities. Could there be White Riots? Sure, but they will be dwarfed in size and viciousness by the Blacks and Browns.

Carrying the Olympic Torch. It's so inspiring to see that they're getting ready for the 2012 Games....

http://www.london2012.com/get-involved/jobs/index.php

Sam Lowe, 20, of Keswick Court, Sneinton will appear at Nottingham magistrates court today charged with section 44 of the serious crime act, which is to intentionally encourage or assist the commission of an offence.

A 16-year-old boy, from St Ann's, has been charged with violent disorder.

Owen Johnson, 18, of Mansfield Court, Mansfield Road, has been charged with disorderly behaviour.

10.54pm: Greater Manchester Police says it has arrested two men found with a fuel can, balaclava and ball bearings.

In the post on Twitter, the force adds "if you want to commit disorder, we'll lock you up."

Assistant Chief Constable Garry Shewan also tweets: "People still arming themselves to attack property & police. I myself found an axe wrapped in a stolen shirt whilst in the city this morning."

as one said when asked why they were rioting: "You wouldn't be interviewing me if we weren't rioting."
=============

But does the rioter want to be interviewed to air grievances or to enjoy some momentary attention and power. I've always been a sceptic about the purity of Jerry Rubin's motivations to name but one example.

Good response & it is radical. My approach is for individuals to reduce their use of natural resources and to use free market approaches to accomplish that. For example, sin taxes are used on alcohol and tobacco as a way to counteract the societal costs.

The total societal costs to deliver energy to power ICE cars could be accomplished with taxes. This might include:
*military expenditures to secure ME oil
*environmental damage or clean up
*air pollution costs on health
*lost productivity due to auto congestion
*road and bridges total costs (not other taxes used to support these).

{Hey, Q, did you notice when the credit rating was downgraded, the market went down, and every single private company lost value? Private sector holdings were being taken to the cleaners. Where did people's money get parked?

Why, people voted with their dollars. Did they vote for the private sector? No. They bought USA treasuries, demonstrating their full faith in BIG GOVERNMENT to repay with interest.}

Like it or not, the dude has an extremely valid point here :)

Watch for more bipolar market swings, while the "smart money" gets their shit in one a-sock-a :)

Kunstler . . . do you actually support all the racist/racism toned dialogue that goes on in your comments? I know you're all about free speech and such, but as a member of a minority who has historically been fucked over again and again, I find it rather surprising that you would allow your comments section to consistently support the opinions of the blatantly racist here. CONSISTENTLY, every week, I can guarantee that I can come here and it turn into a blather over white/black/Hispanic . . . is this what you really support? Far be it from me to tell you what to do, but do you realize that this kind of ignorance sends people away from your blog and makes you look equally ignorant, especially when there are other authors out there who do not passively condone such behavior? Just some food for thought . . . if your goal is ultimately to sell your books and have people take you seriously, this is not the way to go about it. Best regards . . .

if I was day trading ford I might give a shit .... I don,t.
================

Riiight.

do you realize that this kind of ignorance sends people away from your blog and makes you look equally ignorant
============

Wrong Truth.

CFN drew more than twice as many comments in the last 5 weeks as in the comparable period last summer.

See my Aug 8 comment at 10:17PM for details.

And beside comment count the issues surrounding race and immigration are bursting to the fore world-wide and are very much related to peak oil and TLE.

Stop worrying about what other people choose to comment about.

No one is serious about talking about race so I'd be glad to talk about the downgrade. I don't have a business background so I'd mostly be listening. I tried to get Q to talk about it but he didn't take the bait.

Qshtik.....really? you don't see anything that might be taken as pejorative there.
=================

Calm down Dale and let's discuss this slowly and calmly.

I am trying to make the point that when the word "racism" first came into the vernacular it is quite possible it carried none of the negative freight that it is loaded with today. It was very likely just another "ism" like, say, "socialism." That is why I suggested ignoring the second and third elements of the current dictionary definition and looking only at the first element.

The first element (the primary definition), or something very similar to it, may well have been the only definition when "racism" first appeared in a dictionary. I can visualize people looking at the word scientifically as they might have looked at the word "evolution" when Darwin published The Origin of Species.

Hey what a cool concept. The world isn't just 6000 years old but millions. And slowly but surely all life changed by a process of survival of the fittest and evolved to its present state and will continue to evolve. That kinda makes a lot of sense.

That concept was revolutionary but not negative until Christians realized how this upset a lot of preconceived notions.

So, the primary definition of racism contains these key concepts:

1. That the earth contains groups of people that differ from one another in various ways and that it is the differences rather than the similarities (like one head, two arms, 10 fingers etc.) that cause us to have a special word "race" that acknowledges there are differences between and among groups of people.

The dictionary.com definition of "race" is:

1. a group of persons related by common descent or heredity.
2. a population so related.
3. Anthropology .
a. any of the traditional divisions of humankind, the commonest being the Caucasian, Mongoloid, and Negro, characterized by supposedly distinctive and universal physical characteristics: no longer in technical use.
b. an arbitrary classification of modern humans, sometimes, especially formerly, based on any or a combination of various physical characteristics, as skin color, facial form, or eye shape, and now frequently based on such genetic markers as blood groups.
c. a human population partially isolated reproductively from other populations, whose members share a greater degree of physical and genetic similarity with one another than with other humans.
4. a group of tribes or peoples forming an ethnic stock: the Slavic race.
5. any people united by common history, language, cultural traits, etc.: the Dutch race.

Note that, contrary to a comment earlier by Turkle, culture is one of the elements that determines a race.

Primarily for reasons of political correctness IMO changes have come about in the definition of race which I have bolded above. But, suffice it to say, it takes an EXTREMELY PC person to deny that the concept of race is valid.

And THERE ARE such people. You will find them among the academicians in the Rutgers Women's Studies program in which my daughter received a degree. (You have no idea the strenuousness with which, 10 years ago, she defended the idea that "race" is a bogus concept, that there is no such thing as race. She has matured and we no longer have those heated debates.)

And so Dale, on this all important first item of discussion, do you agree that "race" exists as a valid concept?

If you don't agree to that there would be no sense in me continuing on to discuss the other 4 elements in the primary definition of "racism," namely differences in: character, intelligence, superiority and maintenance of racial purity.

I await your response.

"Manhattan deserves to sink under the waves, only that can purify the sins of that place."

You're starting to sound like Travis Bickle. Are you now sporting a mohawk and driving a taxi?

Tuscon,

Excellent observation regarding the two stiffs from the Ukraine. Heck, those two wouldn't have lasted against Gerry Cooney.

Regarding Ali: Why do most people assume that Liston threw the fight? Because they failed to see the incredible hand speed of Ali? Here's something else that most people overlook as well: Ali was bigger than Liston, especially in height and reach. And Joe Frazier was no bum of the month. In fact, he was every bit as good as Marciano. And as I mentioned earlier, Ali was a master at slicing up the face of an opposing fighter - take a look at the Henry Cooper fight for evidence. The ability to cut an opposing fighter was a skill that Howard Cosell claimed Ali never regained when he was banned from boxing at the height and prime of his career. To speculate ow Ali might have fared against Joe Louis look no further than Billy Conn who had a similar agile style as Ali and who only lost to Louis because he inexplicably decided to go toe to toe with the Brown Bomber in the latter rounds. Or as Conn lamented in the immediate aftermath of the fight, "what's the use of being Irish if you can't be stupid every now and then". Simply put, Ali was indeed the greatest heavyweight ever. Incredibly agility and footwork in his prime, rapier hand speed, and the uncanny ability to take a punch from thunderous fists - think Frazier, Foreman, Shavers. Tragically, we are witness to the sad and pathetic result of that ability.

But you're right: no fighter comes close to Sugar Ray Robinson. 199 professional fights, and not a few of them brutal fifteen round matches. It's simply unheard of in this day and age.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60GuoYpmbJo


LBendet said:

Yes, this is what Europe gets for following our insane notions of free trade economy and large trading blocks. The illusion is still being pushed, but the reality is that the king has no clothes and you are right about the old currencies serving their citizenry far better than the Euro. That one size fits all currency should have remained just an economic
****************************************************

Hello, LB. I can't help but rib my favorite
liberal CFN member about her progressive
liberalism here because: a) I think your comment
above is absolutely correct, but b) It's in the
nature of progressive liberalism to come up with
utopian ideas that don't work ... and that come
attached with a HUGE bureaucracy like the 1600
page EU "constitution".

I view the whole idea of the EU and of the euro
currency is, to my mind, very close to the idea
that we can just write pretty words and get all
of the world's tribes to love one another. It's
a nice sentiment but the human race won't get
there until it abandons ideological adolescence
and starts to base its idealism upon current
factual realities.

Good gravy, who is the brainiac who thought that
countries like Greece are brethren to, say, the
Dutch, the Germans, or the Belgians?? I have a
humorous anecdote to illustrate this point: In
1986 I was in a game cafe in Amsterdam playing
chess with a Dutch sailor. Suddenly a shouting
and pushing/shoving match started up in an area
of the cafe where people were playing cards. I
stood up from my chess table in case I needed to
flee. The Dutch sailor calmly said: "Sit down,
John. It's only an Italian." :-) :-)

Race is often an issue on this blog but forget
about groups as large as races. We can't even
get the Spanish Basques to embrace the Spaniards.
The problem with just DECLARING "utopia", which
is essentially what the whole EU idea is, is that
if you don't have an existing utopia IN FACT, you
can never create one by declaration.

Take care ...


E.


LBendet said:

Yes this is the other side of globalism. With the outsourcing of our jobs we have made China so deliriously liquid that they are snapping up energy assets everywhere including here. This is the flip side of globalism with China now investing in Texas oil and gas assets....
***************************************************

Here's where our disparate political philosophies
actually CONVERGE i.e., a critique of GLOBALISM.
True conservatism means close adherence to the
Constitution and when our Founders talked about
avoiding foreign "entanglements" (as Paine wrote)
they did NOT mean only foreign wars but anything
too far flung to control. Needless to say, I
don't see anything like a conservative in the
Republican party by any meaning of "conservative"
that obtained up until around 1970 or so.

The Founders were interested in a republic that
valued sound money (does Bernanke, allegedly a
Republican, show ANY sympathy for sound money
in these failed QEs??), checks and balances so
that power never fell into ANY one set of hands,
and so on. The benefactor of our republic was
to be the INDIVIDUAL who was a "sovereign". How
do we see any of this in things like PNAC, the
Patriot Act(s), the QEs, and, of course, the
war machines of the Bushes (alas, continued by
the feckless Obama).

No Constitutional Conservative could ever support
the notions and the results of globalism yet they
embrace it with utopian fervor.

I figured that after I gave you a friendly
ribbing in my last post, I "owed you one" by
pounding the sociopathic Republican party as
currently constituted. It's a pathetic
organization but the good news is that Tea
Party rallies ARE getting smaller and smaller.
However, I don't think Obama is giving their
philosophies the rhetorical thrashing they
deserve. What's with his SPINELESSNESS??

I guess it's all too obvious ... PAC money fuels
both parties and it is apolitical as long as it
pays big windfalls to amoral plutocrats.


E.

Hey Jimbo: I am one of the few sane people left here on the West Coast. I have a small garden, a cat, no kids, no wife, no alimony, no child support, no debt, no stocks, no 401k, no video games, no cable tv, no IPOD, no mortgage, no neighborhood association (no neighborhood to speak of, thanks to 1950's era ticky-tack suburban development). I have a few garden tools and a shotgun. I hate two-faced politicians, bureaucrats, city zoning fascists, diversity fascists, bike nazis, and homosexual perversion. My cat is the best friend I ever had. He is a carnivore and kills mice. I will protect what little I have with the shotgun. Anyone who wants a piece of me will be talking to my shotgun.


Well, the collapsing tent known as the EU
took a HUGE step toward an endgame today
when rumors swirled that FRANCE is probably
going to get a rating downgrade.

Well, to be fair, their debt/GDP ratio is
around 87% ... not too far from the US's
105% ... and that debt is very probably
higher given their higher investment in
the bubbles in the PIIG countries which
they share with Germany and England.

The USA is certainly invested in the PIIGs
but not to the extent of the central EU
players and England. Maybe the whole EU/euro
idea could withstand Italy coming asunder ...
if it stopped there. But France??? No way.


E.


MadMax said:

Hey Jimbo: I am one of the few sane people left here on the West Coast. I have a small garden, a cat, no kids, no wife, no alimony, no child support, no debt, no stocks, no 401k, no video games, no cable tv, no IPOD, no mortgage, no neighborhood association (no neighborhood to speak of, thanks to 1950's era ticky-tack suburban development). I have a few garden tools and a shotgun. I hate two-faced politicians, bureaucrats, city zoning fascists, diversity fascists, bike nazis, and homosexual perversion. My cat is the best friend I ever had. He is a carnivore and kills mice. I will protect what little I have with the shotgun. Anyone who wants a piece of me will be talking to my shotgun.
*************************************************

I like the ideas of no stocks, no cable TV, and
even your peeve about city zoning fascists and
diversity fascists. However, I don't see why
sexual proclivities had to brought into your
screed and, frankly, I think that if things DO
go "Mad Max", chances are about 90% that your
own tightly-clasped gun will be used by someone
else to shoot YOU when you are marauded.

You started out well but ended up sounded like
yet-another-bunker-mentality anarcho-libertarian
at the end. Written history does not support
the idea that bunkers can be maintained in
chaotic social/governmental breakdowns. Why
do you think you'll be successful??


E.

Yes, White Men in general are much stiffer than Blacks, especially at that weight category. Nonetheless the Brothers have crushed dozens of slick, smooth, quick Blacks. Raw Power cannot be dismissed. Or are we talking boxing as dance here?

Ever see how stiff John Havilcek of the Boston Celtics was? Slow and not a good jumper either. Yet in his 30's he would never stop running - effectively running the young Blacks guarding him into the ground. He didn't have speed, he had endurance. And he could shoot of course. And pass. And was an old fashioned team player. Ever wonder why in the Olympics Eastern Europe has been able to beat America in basketball? Because they play the classic game - and the refs enforce the real rules of the game. No traveling, which is one of the mainstays of the slam dunk Black style.

Anyway go to castefootball.com if you like this kind of talk. I'm not saying Black aren't great at most sports, just balancing things out a bit. Some over there go too far - West African Blacks really are better at sprinting and jumping. But they have a fascinating perspective on some things: that Sports have become PC and that certain positions are now effectively denied to Whites in College and Pro Football thus the name caste football. Don't know if it's true since I don't follow sports very much.


Athletics is an area where American blacks
have made huge contributions ... and introduced
HORRIBLE sportsmanship. While everyone was
worshipping Muhammed Ali during his reign, I
saw Ali as the prime initiator of the "in your
face" style of anti-sportsmanship.

Ali's legacy lives today in a myriad of ways
... guys doing the Watusi after merely tackling
a runner for a two-yard loss ... on the court/field fights between contestants (virtually
nonexistent before Ali and the 1970s) ... hair-trigger tempers over minor incidents ... a
style that athletes of ALL races have adopted today.

The introduction of the black athlete to
professional sport has been a decidedly mixed
blessing. Their talent has enriched the viewing
experience of the contests. However, their
furthering of Ali's "in your face" ethos has
turned sport into a circus and has lionized
extreme narcissism.

That anyone can doubt that it was the wholesale
entry of black athletes into professional sport
that created all this trash-talking, fighting,
and antics should look at footage of football,
basketball, and baseball (LOTS of footage) in
the era up to the mid-1960s. These sideshows
were ABSENT. Even ice hockey, once a great
sport in the days of the "Original Six" when
great skating dominated and fights were a
rarity, has been tarnished into a sport where
a game WITHOUT a fight is a rarity.

White athletes have bought into this narcissistic
"showmanship" in the very same way as young white
males have bought into the ghetto dress and
language. Sometimes, I wonder what the reasonable
members of the black community think about whites
adopting the WORST aspects of black social
culture ... on and off the field. I think I know
where Bill Cosby and Ward Connerly would stand on
this issue.

It's a crying shame that these two men are pretty
much viewed as the ultimate "Uncle Toms" of their
race. It has led to "fighting Honkie" by
rejecting virtue itself ... and has led to
absolute travesties like the re-election of
Marion Barry to Mayor of Washington, D.C. after
his adolescent philandering and open drug use.

It's like the black community has invented its
own Orwellian false "truism" ... "Virtue is
'giving in'". Fortunately, some members of the
black community have started to realize that
even SHOWING violence and vulgarity is a bad
idea. The Wayans brothers did a hilarious
spoof of "Boys In the Hood" called "Don't Be A
Menace" which parodies the trite anti-honkie
sentiments of Lawrence Fishburne in "... Hood"
... sentiments which were "proved" to be true
by WHAT (??) ... demos of standard South Central
vulgarity, excessive sexuality in youth, and
unbelievable violence??

I fully expect this post to receive treatment
from many of Vlad's detractors. That's okay
because I knew long, long ago that there aren't
a hundred HONEST liberals when it comes to issues
of race ... which I've repeated a dozen times
here on CFN. I'll believe all the pretty rhetoric
when I see lily white suburbanites in places like
Palo Alto having "people of color" in the intimate
places of their lives. So far, it's hard to tell
the difference between the pretty talkers and a
KKK member when it comes to ACTUAL life choices
of friends, guests in the home, neighborhoods
chosen to live in, and areas where one recreates.


E.

E.,
I certainly didn't take your post as a drubbing, in fact we agree on the points of sovereignty for both Europe and the US. What we see on this blog is a basic human trait which is tribalism something that is ingrained in all of us, although taken to extremes by some. As I always say, we aren't ants, we're clans.

Europe has developed through the centuries as very localized groups with many conflicts and stresses from group to group, so it is in fact a short-lived dream to form as one group. All this is a futile exercise in philosophical constructs, like communism. Corporate global communism doesn't work any better.

Both our political parties with the exception of Ron Paul believe fervently in the global paradigm including Obama who is presently trying to push three trade deals which sill only result in more jobs going, going gone. That's why he says nothing, he believes in the same tenets as the rest, though for show-pony politics, they bash him. He's doing everything they want---they'll still try to replace him with a Republican brand.

The politicians are serving the transnationals who treat our government as their toy, to lavish with money in order to get everything they want and write the laws.
With globalism we see a total decoupling of Corporations to the population of any one country and in tandem do way better when they can lay people off and lower their wages, as workers are seen not as human resources, but a debit against their bonuses and bottom line.

We are stuck in this nightmare paradigm of theirs and they are not turning this around. It will only continue to get worse for 99% of the populations around the world as the debt-to-profit a few will continues to be the form of economics we live in.

We went from creditor nation to debt nation--I call it keytonic. It can never work as a system, but that will not stop them from wanting more.

Well, it took a while to throttle the final breath out of the "irrational exuberance", but now it's done and the grim truth of too many claims to too few pie pieces is bubbling to the surface of the cesspool.
From the Automatic Earth:

"While rallies are kind to policy makers, casting them in a gloss of apparent competence and effectiveness, declines abruptly strip away the comforting illusion of central control. Policy makers appear increasingly incompetent and out of touch with reality as events unfold far more rapidly than they can be responded to. In reality there is little they can do faced with a bubble blown over at least three decades. Once blown, bubbles always implode.

The demand artificially brought forward during the boom years must be repaid with years of falling demand for almost everything, as difficult as that is to imagine from the top of the pyramid. That is the last thing people are expecting, but it is already underway. Even commodities appear to have topped on speculation going into reverse, and falling demand will accentuate falling prices. The growth dynamic is going into reverse, and with it many of our preconceived and deeply held notions."

There ya go. It's baked into the cake, and bullshittery is all that's left in the official "toolbox".


Enriching exchange of ideas between yourself and Cash; and I believe it shows the many commonalities between "traditional" conservatives and liberals. Those who think that these labels must [in all cases] be tied to modern platform dogma of official party membership have been fooled by Orwellian tactics of redefining terms. These "new definitions" have nothing to do with connecting political values to underlying realities; and I think that's the whole point. "Reality is what we make it." Bullshit. Reality is real earthly consequence, not praying bad things away.

IOW, back to JHK.
You don't have to believe in the changes, they'll fall on your head anyway.

Is it better not to know? I dunno; guess that would strictly be up to the individual. Some people operate better by sticking to a single-minded focus and excluding externalities. Some are better as "generalists".

Can you give me your definition of a "bike nazi"?

Also, what do you drive and how do you expect to fuel it in your Mad Max scenario?

Eleuthero,

I am still hoping to here how you intend to "definancialize" whatever 401k, money, or savings you possess.

RE: London Riots

The BBC will never replay this
- http://goo.gl/WEJ1X

The Great Splintering
- http://goo.gl/AWkZ0

Madmax, Really enjoyed yr term 'Diversity Fascists'

BikeNazis....for ME they are the ones in LA
that yell at you as they almost run walkers down,
tell me to get out of their way, while they are riding on walkways etc.

" I fully expect this post to receive treatment
from many of Vlad's detractors. That's okay
because I knew long, long ago that there aren't
a hundred HONEST liberals when it comes to issues
of race."

You're right, the " in your face " attitude of blacks was on display when the likes of a Jack Johnson or a Jackie Robinson merely had the audacity to show for the sporting event under threat of death from the nice civilized white fans forced to watch these great athletes perform. And, of course, it was the black race that instigated the "in your face" showmanship, and by association, sportsmanship, of professional wrestling events watched on televisions everywhere in White America during the fifties and sixties. Oh and did I mention Joan Blondell and the Bay Area Bombers. What nice, petite civilized white women - they would have trashed out a Jerry Springer show in ten seconds flat.

The sneering and insolent 'Rebel Without A Cause' ethos was also influenced by a black man: James Dean had a vision one night of a handsome bombastic black man dancing around the ring slinging poetry and civilized white Aerica has never been the same since. And the "Hell No We Wont Go" chants slung at The Man - how dare those black kids project such defiance on the American War Machine.

And that trecaherous Oakland Raider, Ben Davidson, who pointed a menancing finger into the face of Joe Namath after slamming him head first into the turf one fall day in the sixties, how did he ever manage to straighten the kinks from his hair and handlebar mustache and bleach his skin to a lighter shade of value?

And why did Pete Townsend smash his guitar up on the stage; he at least could have had the good white manners to give credit to Ali and the blacks.

Oh well. So much tall stupidity and short memory in the year 2011.

The fact that investors parked money into U.S Treasuries is not any type of endorsement of big government.
==

True. But just to clarify: Retail investors don't count for shit in the US Treasuries market. Same regards the stock market. That's not what animates these markets. The US Treasuries market is where global players with trillions of dollars park their money because when you're that big there's nowhere else to park it.

Eventually, these players will realize that it's not just corporations that are dead in the water, it is the gov mafia as well. I see a time horizon of five to ten years for this to play out. At that time, I expect Jim Rogers' predictions will come true. It's going to be about farm land and commodities.

Good post!

WHAT THE HELL
here how you intend to "definancialize" whatever 401
..HERE YE HERE YE

So tell me Cash, how can the government change how families within different cultures are structured? - turk

Here's the thing Turk. What govt can do is to stop encouraging the incontinent acceptance and entrenchment of practices and cultures we know NOTHING about. What it can do is to explicitly tell people that the old country ways stop at the border.

This is what the current government included in the current guide for newcomers: "We believe in equality between women and men and we do not tolerate unjust discrimination based on race, age, sexual orientation or physical and mental disability. The dignity of individuals is well established in our laws and traditions. Parents are prohibited from forcing their daughters or sons into marriages against their will." And here an explicit declaration: "Today, Canadian society stems largely from the English-speaking and French-speaking Christian civilizations that were brought here from Europe by settlers." So there you have it.

How families are "structured"? Too anti-septic. I'll give you an illustrative anecdote: I know a woman who's my age who was forced to quit school at 16 by her old world Italian immigrant parents and get married to a fellow they picked out for her. Here in Canada. She was given no choice in the matter. It's this way or the highway. Her parents could not conceive of any other way. Education for girls? Bah! Personal choice? Bah!

A milder situation: I know a woman who's the daughter of Italian immigrants. She's a highly educated, highly paid, highly accomplished corporate exec. Her younger brother isn't remotely as bright or as accomplished. But mom is an old school Italian and bro is the apple of her eye. He can do no wrong. Whereas sis can do no right. Literally. And she gets ZERO credit from mom for what she's accomplished. You see he's the boy, she's the girl and by virue of that fact he automatically gets higher status. Sis, in her mom's book, is a nobody. Her whole life she's had to fight her mother (her dad died young). So how would this rankle you if you were in her shoes?

Another anecdote: in the 1990s I was in the office late when the cleaning lady came by to empty my garbage can. She was an Italian immigrant that came here when she was 12 yrs old, was then in her 40s and had two teen girls. She asked what I did at the company so I told her in brief. She then asked me if a "girl" could do the job. The use of the word "girl" was code and I knew exactly what she meant having been born and raised in that cultural milieu. You see in her world there are certain expectations for "girls". They are to get married, keep house, pump out kids. Outside employment is meant to be temporary at best. Education past high school is seen as unnecessary to the tasks at hand.

Now liberals would sneer at such stuff. We have to be culturally "tolerant" you see. Then ask them if such retrograde treatment should apply to their own daughters. No you see, this applies to quaint little ethnics with their quaint little ethnic ways, not the high and mighty like themselves.

You're too late Asia, I already corrected it at 11:35.

Ron Paul has changed on immigration - he wants something approaching amnesty as well as a vast increase in skilled foreign workers. So he believes in globalism of a kind too. As a libertarian, how could he not?

It takes alot of money, effort, and Sacrafice to have a nation - who is willing to pay it, do it, or make it? Call it Love and it is lacking. I think he does love America but just doesn't understand some of the things a Nation needs to do - like tariffs for example. Hope I'm wrong about that - if so somebody tell me.

"But mom is an old school Italian and bro is the apple of her eye. He can do no wrong. "

That is very common in Italy.
I had a brother and he was the "male".
He was intelligent may be more than me, but I was much more successful.
And you know why? Because he was Mom´s boy, pampered and excused and spoiled.
I had to fight for what I wanted in life.
That made me strong and mostly a winner.
So...I am glad I was not my brother, in the end it doesn´pay off.

My God, you are such an adolescent. Displays like these do not create or maintain a civilization. Blacks demanded a place at the table - and they were backed by powerful Jewish and Proto-Globalist forces (NAACP was founded by Jews). So they got their place in the end - and what have they done with it? They had their chance and they're blowing it - have blown it for people like me.

So you identify with their rebel stance - yeah you and millions of other White "kids" of all ages. But do they identify with us? A crucial question don't you think? White kids wear the T shirts of Black atheletes but the reverse? No. And do the Blacks most able to assimilate into White Culture intend to do so? No. Dr West and another prominent Black supporter of Obama (name escapes me) are going around protesting him. Their beef? He hasn't appropriated enough White wealth for Blacks. That IS the Black viewpoint. Herman Cains and Clarence Thomas's are as rare as hens teeth. But you probably go along with all that too since you probably have little to lose in that department. You wont complain if tens of millions of Whites are robbed and beaten - only if you are.

It REALLY bugs you that we have a White Heavy Weight Champ in boxing doesn't it? You're "I don't care about it" response to me was self deception given your passionate respoinse to ront and your previous story about your friend in Texas. Again find me a Black who identifies with Whites like you do with Blacks. You are SUCH a Dupe.

It's natural to them since they have more testosterone than the average White Man. Can they do better? Yes, Blacks raised by Whites can fit in - but they will take the side of Blacks if Black invade a White neighborhood despite their upbringing and good manners.

And Blacks used to do better all by themselves. There was a small Black middle class before the welfare state. So those Blacks could be legitimately proud of themselves. But once welfare kicked in, single mothers could do better without a man around and the Black Family went down the toilet - all documented by Daniel Patrick Moynihan. No one in American Politics could write what he did today - they'd be drummed out of politics. And what were the conequences? Horrific - boys without Fathers often go bad and with the Black genetic propensity for violence it was a recipe for disaster. The same happened in England and the results of that social experiment gone awry are on the tube. But how to reverse all this? Don't think it can be - it really is too late since the feral boys are now men demanding things they don't deserve and can't understand. In America we could give them their own Nation - a generous swath of the deep South. But what can England do? It's too crowded to send them back to Africa at this late date.

Are you Asia? What happened?

Oh I see: the Blacks are actually noble Marxist Revolutionaries. Not like those bad Muslim rioters whom the Marxists have also embraced but you do not. You can't have it both ways Met - you must embrace both as the Marxists do or reject both as I do.

The old Black guy was probably a real Marxist trying to use the chaos to advance the Agenda. Wage Laborer must be in 7th Heaven the last couple of days. But you should know better - still controlled by your lust for Black girls I see. You'll continue to be a fool until you overcome that. Be sensible like the average Jew: get a Jewish wife, do your duty to your people and have a couple of kids, and then you can divorce her and have fun. Most Jewish Guys then go for Blondes but hey, whatever floats your boat.

The same happened in England and the results of that social experiment gone awry are on the tube.
===============

Apropos to the above^ is today's NYT QUOTATION OF THE DAY from Prime Minister David Cameron, as follows:

"The sight of those young people running down streets, smashing windows, taking property, looting, laughing as they go, the problem of that is a complete lack of responsibility, a lack of proper parenting, a lack of proper upbringing, a lack of proper ethics, a lack of proper morals."

Eleuthero,

Your comments on this board are insightful and intelligent.

Vlad,

In this case you are right. Sadly, they love only wealth.

The globalism issue is one of those areas that you and I agree, but this is so far beyond us, we are experiencing a snowball effect. You can't keep up with this stuff!

This morning on Morning Joe I caught a headline about Chinese investment in NYC--yep-my city too is on a fire-sale. When you can't collect taxes Sovereign Wealth funds and ownership by China's government are the options of "last resort". That's what happens when you destroy the government for and by the people.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/11/nyregion/chinese-investment-grows-in-new-york-city.html?_r=1

As Investors, Chinese Turn to New York

[...Even one of the region’s fastest growing construction companies is Chinese. The company, China Construction America, has won contracts on major public works projects, including the Tappan Zee and Alexander Hamilton Bridges, the No. 7 subway line extension and the $91 million Metro-North Railroad station at Yankee Stadium.]

Note:
Don't forget that Chinese steel is so inferior, they have lead in it!

You can't have it both ways Met
==

I'm not. The islamo-fascists are entirely a CIA/MI6 nazi creation. They work together and they're one and the same. Old black Joe still picking cotton, that's a different story. You don't see difference because you don't want to see difference.

Tonight is the Iowa debate.

Who do you want to become president in 2012? I voted for Obama the first time, but never again.
Of course, if the republicans nominate some dingbat, like Bachman or Palin, I may have to choose the lesser of two evils.

get a Jewish wife, do your duty to your people and have a couple of kids
==

I will. And she might even be an Ethiopian or Yemenite. I've seen that combination in Israel quite often. The kids are absolutely gorgeous hebrew mulattos. :)

Social credit or "Fascist" economics: it's one way, a real way even if not our way. We must return to the gold standard as per our Constitution - or perish as a Country. But both understand that the Current Banking system is nothing but a fraudulent ponzi scheme.

Buck, see Ezra Pound's "With Usura" in here:

http://www.counter-currents.com/2011/08/breaking-the-bondage-of-interesta-right-answer-to-usury-part-2/print/

Back in the good old days, China would take the ugliest scrap off the market. Shot up Iraqi soviet-made tanks peppered with depleted uranium. They would melt that shit down and make pots and pans.

Muslim fanaticism goes back to the begining - these are the same "true believers" who butchered Ali and Husayn. But the record and example of Mohammad himself is also to blame... Calling these fanatics "CIA" is a grotesque distortion of the historical facts. That the CIA stupidly armed these people doesn't change History.

Your testament is why there can be no peace between our Peoples. You hate us even more than you hate your mortal enemies. You say that they are just us in disguise. Just as you called us Nazis after we defeated the Nazis for you.

Some of these jokers have their own absurd take on Canadian political divisions, occasionally referring to Alberta as "Canada's Texas." These dolts, who can't reliably tell Texas from Wyoming from Kansas, tell us that all the oilmen who enjoy a good boot-stompin' Fort McMurray hoedown are evidently Texans - AMR

Yeah, Alberta is not Texas. Our own Toronto liberals think of Alberta as rednecks, yahoos, right wing extremists, bigots, Bible thumping evangelical Christians. Right? Dead wrong. For one thing Alberta is about the least religious province in the country. Absurd as you say.

Imagine the shock here when Calgary elected as mayor a brown skinned Muslim who's a Harvard graduated university professor. And laughably enough the good citizens of Toronto elected as mayor a fat, ranting, right wing cost cutter.

OMG we got it wrong, Calgary got it wrong. Naheed should be Toronto's mayor and Rob Ford should be Calgary's mayor. At least according to Toronto's glitterati.

Hebrew Mulattos - you are too much Met. This is what happens when a Nation or People lose their moorings. Good for us though - such offspring will be far below the average Jewish IQ.

At this point, you're just an Arab with a degree and a beanie (which you are too edjumacated to wear). Christianity is going to have save the Jews from themselves.

Vlad, do you ever tire of your false projections? You menTion something I wrote a while back ago and conveniently forget that I detest the world of current pro sports ( for many of the reasons E mentions ) and that includes boxing. I’m just not that interested and especially concerning a couple of very pedestrian fighters from the Ukraine.

Additionally, my response was not about “identifying” with the rebel; it was a look into the deeper genesis of “ in your face “ antics, athletic and otherwise. You can’t refute the facts on that count so you set up another straw man in order set your bizarre racial theories ablaze in the world of cyber debate. You and the looters from London, in other words.

Did you know that the CIA promoted Abstract Expressionism in the fifties in order to spread American culture ? And on one level, isn’t the bodacious drip painting and the spontaneous bravura brushstroke nothing but the impetuous swagger of brazen superpower, insolent and simpering in it’s narcissistic self-indulgence ? Just another Olympic game opening ceremony where the American team marches in codified and contrived chaos in order to elongate the cliché of manifest destiny freely spreading, undisciplined. Indeed an act, a play, a theatrical production:

“ At a certain moment the canvas began to appear to one American painter after another as an arena in which to act. What was to go on the canvas was not a picture but an event. “ Harold Rosenberg

Your testament is why there can be no peace between our Peoples. You hate us even more than you hate your mortal enemies.
==

You're right. As long as you continue with your behavior there will be no peace between us. As long as you continue with your thieving your lying your divide & conquer imperialist machinations, we will expose you for the evil that you are. It's all dependent on you.

As for our "mortal enemies", these jihadis would not be our mortal enemies if it wasn't for the anglo-americans the germans the russians the french, etc., inciting these people and providing them with arms and money to carry on endless wars. Again, it all leads to you.

Just as you called us Nazis after we defeated the Nazis for you.
==

You are the nazis. The germans learned EVERYTHING from you. Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING, in nazi germany was imported from the US. You didn't defeat the nazis for us, you just cleverly managed to scapegoat the germans for what was essentially your doing. It was you that blocked all escape routes to European Jewry, not germany. And you not only denied these people refuge in the US, but you also denied them access to Jewish Palestine. You also put diplomatic pressure on everyone you could to deny these people refuge in other countries.

When the modern State Of Israel was born, you placed an arms embargo on it, while providing the arabs with the weapons and the propaganda to repeat another genocide. You passed along military information to the arabs by way of your UN personnel, and when that didn't work because we knew what you were doing, you used your CIA spy assets, such as the USS Liberty, for the same purpose.

And I could go on and on and on.

Hebrew Mulattos - you are too much Met. This is what happens when a Nation or People lose their moorings
==

LOL! These people are our nation. There's no difference between us. We are all one.

Hatred for the Jews in the Koran dimwit.

So why hate the blonde, blue eyed Jews of Germany and Poland? With their Aryan Blood, they are among your best men - like Ben Gurion. Without such as He, you would have never even got your foot in the door down there.

The British put down the Arab Revolt. Their reward from you all? Assasinations and terrorism. You didn't like it when they asked you to obey the UN rules. And you didn't like it when they asked you to stop persecuting the Arabs.

Your mind is a machine of hatred, prejudice, and distortion.

LOL! Again, you're too funny!!

Most "arabs" (I use arabs in quotations marks because these are not arabs at all) were pretty much secularized in the early 20th century. It was you that took them back a thousand years. It was you that radicalized them into complete genocidal maniacs.

If true, then that's just one more reason for me not to like the CIA. We must return to the Masters in Painting and in all other areas of Culture.

We are that powerful? Then you don't have a chance! Bow down and worship! (come in with Wagner's Ride of the Valkyries)

The British put down the Arab Revolt. Their reward from you all?
==

The British did nothing. I was the Jewish Underground, producing small arms and ammunition in defiance of the British, that provided protection to the Jewish community. But where did the islamo-fascists get their weapons from? Can you explain that to me?

It was..

We are that powerful?
==

You are the smiling fascists. And I'm determined to show people past your slimy smiles.

"In America we could give them their own Nation - a generous swath of the deep South."
-vlad, concerning blacks in America-

Vlad, you old softy - now, you are wanting to make generous reparations for black slavery.

Generous. I can tell where you don't live.

===============

Where did you get the idea that I hate german or polish jewry? You're talking nonsense.

I had trouble logging in under the old handle!

Qtip I apologize for not noticing your self correct.

Here's an image of your "blonde blue-eyed" ben gurion:

- http://goo.gl/Z6by8

Your lying propaganda never ends.

Rather than get embroiled in the racial discussion, I would like to merely point out, as a big sports fan from way back, the incorrectness of your underlying premise:

...look at footage of football,basketball, and baseball (LOTS of footage) in the era up to the mid-1960s. These sideshows were ABSENT. Even ice hockey, once a great sport in the days of the "Original Six" when great skating dominated and fights were a rarity, has been tarnished into a sport where a game WITHOUT a fight is a rarity.

As Buck Stud pointed out also, this is just not true. Particularly ice hockey, which remains a sport with a massive white majority.

Google "Eddie Shore and Ace Bailey". How about Lou Fontanato (don't know if I am spelling it correctly), that dirty brutal cheap-shotting bastard in the 50s and 60s? Check out some of the incidents involving Hall of Fame Legend Maurice "The Rocket" Richard.

Hell, I've got some footage of the lily white Ed Hospodar at one time maliciously breaking Ken Linesman's nose when he was face-down, unmoving and prone on the ice by smashing his face into into it and another time when he cross-checked Mark Napier in the teeth while skating the opposite direction at full speed - kind of like a clothesline but at the speed of ice, with a wooden stick, not a forearm, and in the teeth not the neck.

Needless to say, Mr. Napier lost a bunch of teeth in the encounter, I no longer remember how many.

It was the '73-'75 Philadelphia Flyers, an all-white team nicknamed "The Broad Street Bullies", that were primarily responsible for fighting's resurgance in the late 70s and 80s NHL as a transparent tactic.

Simple equation: if we lose our talentless goon for 15 minutes or more, but you lose your superstar for 2 or 5 minutes, who won the exchange?

If you ever meet a hockey afficionado, mention to him or her your comment about the graceful skating in the days of the Orignal Six teams, and see if they agree about the "graceful skating" and lack of fisticuffs in the old days.

I am not saying your entire post is without merit, but the example of yours that I quoted is 100% incorrrect, based on the concrete examples I mentioned (and I could mention more, but this post is already long enough).

I second that Emotion.

I see you in a Chorus Line of Black Drag Queens dancing to "We are Family".

I've always said this - it's too late to send them back to Africa. You love them so you should welcome it. Don't worry - they'll like you! And if not - we'll keep the light on for ya's.

Surely you'd welcome such a reality test of your virtue. I don't want to hear about you hitting their fists with your face like all those White Trash in Philidelphia.

NYTimes just wrote a love letter to Fran and her
Checker cab.

NYTimes did a big piece on the new culture...
SISSYBOUNCE...
Do you see Met doing Sissybounce?
and whats the name of the site you have mentioned..
[?] sports.com ????

The Investments are worrisome, the wholesale immigration from 2 Countries that hold a billion + people more so.

Is there ANY organization ANYWHERE that can oppose illegal and LEGAL immigration into the US.

------------------

P,C I want more illegal immigrants in the USA as they contribute more in taxes than they use in social services.

P,C you are increasing illegal immigrant population by pushing for stricter border control. Increased border enforcement has actually increased the number of undocumented immigrants in the U.S..

Obama has strengthened border patrol and has thereby increased the risk and cost to immigrants of crossing the border. Trying to close the border has resulted in fewer undocumented immigrants returning to their home countries for periods of time as part of the decades-long circular migration patterns that characterize undocumented immigration from Mexico up until the 1990s.

Instead, immigrants stay in the United States for longer periods of time, often choosing to immigrate their families to avoid longer periods of separation.

So ... P,C I hope you continue your efforts because your efforts are completely counterproductive and result in an increased immigrant population in the USA, which is what I want. I just want to do it without associating with racists.

http://www.aclu.org/immigrants-rights/immigration-myths-and-facts

To those who do not want to support racism, instead of giving money to the organizations P,C suggests, just contribute to the ACLU.

The ACLU, I"m laughing is just a propaganda organ for the left. Saying that heavier border enforcement leads to more illegals, is like saying paying off your debts early hurts your credit score. So what it if it does, at least you are being proactive.

The 10-year USA Treasury note's yield rose to 2.33 percent from 2.11 percent late Wednesday.

Gold fell $32.80 per ounce.

Big Government is seen as a safe investment.

Metuselah, you're as ignorant as you're delusional.
I'm in schock that anyone here takes you seriously.
I'm at a loss why this blog attracts sociopaths like you. WHy are you here anyway?

"P,C I hope you continue your efforts because your efforts are completely counterproductive and result in an increased immigrant population in the USA, which is what I want. I just want to do it without associating with racists." -asoka-

Well, Vlad, that makes it official.
Asoka has determined me to be a racist.
Since there is no chance of rehabilitation after being named a racist. (EX: Tanton, the SPLC, and FAIR http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer

I must now be officially in the club of Vlad Krandz.

So, when is our first meeting??

Does everyone concerned about US population need to plan on attending?
Yes, yes they do.

Garden update for those of you who think it's not possible to grow most of your own vegetables:
we're now finished freezing and canning various tomato products for ourselves and the kids, now we'll be taking the remaining tomatoes for the rest of the season to the Cleveland Food Bank (it'll be well over 100 pounds). Next week we'll also have all the eggplant and winter squash we need for the winter, the remainder to the CFB. Ditto for peppers. We'll also tomatoes and eggplant dehydrating.
It looks like again we'll have twice the potatoes and sweet potatoes we need like last year. Peas have long been harvested and frozen. The beans are progressing nicely, expecting another bumper crop. All of this in a 1/4 acre city lot, except potatoes and yams -- those we grow in the community garden plot. Raspberries are ripening along the fense, and we've been eating and freezing strawberries. Garlic is harvested -- 60 beautiful heads plus seed garlic for later this fall. Leeks and onions are doing great. The only thing we don't grow is corn, it takes a lot from the soil, and it's dirt cheap to buy at the farmes market. We also froze almost 10 pounds of sauer cherries, all from a single tree. Next year will my sweet cherry, plum and apricot trees start producing. My neighbor buddy (he's a jew, Vlad) has 6 honeybee hives in his backyard, he trades us honey in exchange for our potatoes. And his bees polinate our garden for free (although I tell him he can't prove it's his bees who polinate our garden :)
Life's good.

Raspberries are ripening along the fense
================

fents
;-)

Forgot to mention one more thing, it's all organic. My wife gets up at 6am and uses an aspirator to remove flea beetles. She uses a lot of Reemay cloth to protect plants from cucumber beetles, cabbage worms. Very rarely she uses BT and Pyrethrin (those are derived from plants and bacteria). I built netting against deer and squirrels, and I trap groundhogs (I take them out to the cabin and shot them, no apologies).
TTFN

Big Government is seen as a safe investment.
=================

********* BREAKING NEWS *********

Asoka makes ass of self AGAIN!!

Declares:
. Black is white
. 2 + 2 = 5
. The earth is flat

fence? no Offense

Hancock, you stole my thunder, lol.

A number of years ago a Czechoslovakian friend and I watched a hockey game between a national Czech team and some North American All-Stars. The Czechs were putting on an amazing display of finesse skating and precision passing. They took a 2-0 lead and the North American fans were becoming increasingly irritated and so were the outclassed North American players. At about that time, the North American squad started implementing pugilistic strategy into their game, presumably to ‘get into the heads of their opponents’. Despite the Czechs hockey artistry, the North Americans, both fan and player alike, whipped themselves into a frenzied and frothing mass of barbaric sportsmanship to order to compete with their clearly superior opposition. It was a sad, pathetic display that completely degraded the spirit and quality of the event.

Disgusted, my friend suddenly blurted out: “ Goddammit Muhammed Ali, look what you have done to the once beautiful game of hockey !”

Well, one thing government has going for it is the power of taxation with IRS coercion to back it up. Plus, they can conjure up money from scratch, which is a neat trick.

It would have better to score some Apple stock 10 years ago though.

It was a sad, pathetic display that completely degraded the spirit and quality of the event.
===================

Yeah, OK, but who won?

"Saying that heavier border enforcement leads to more illegals, is like saying paying off your debts early hurts your credit score." -bossier-

That's pretty funny, boss. I can see what the ACLU means over the short term, though, like - one guy will stay in the States because he knows he can't leave and get back in illegally - sure. But eventually he will leave - and probably not return.

I'll admit that Turkle's right - (Hear that SNAFU, I don't mind changing my positions, when better ideas come along!) - that the better way to do immigration control would be INTERNAL, using Social Security Numbers and E-Verify. But these strategies will still work better coupled with a secure border.

E-Verify does work, though. Georgia passed a law mandating E-Verify - and for that, or some other reason - most of our illegals are GONE. It's really weird to drive past the chicken plants and the "day labor" pickup spots around the State - to see almost no one, where huge crowds once stood around.
And it's interesting to note that the chickens are still being processed at the same rate as with the illegals -
but now for higher wages for the workers.

No blood was shed, and no harsh words were exchanged* - our formerly undocumented residents simply left for greener pastures.

(*except at demonstrations around the Capitol organized by the ACLU and La Raza - where the word RACIST was used as it usually is - to inflame fear and hate and curtail debate)

Georgia (and my rental properties) will take an economic hit over the near term. But over the longer term - the State will be better off with a lower - and more sustainable - population level.

And the State, and I, and my owners will get by just fine with lower rents.

Let me know when the meeting is.

>fents

The dictionary doesn't have it, and my wife (a native English speaker) doesn't think it's a valid word. It could be a regional term I suppose, but I don't speak New Jersian :) Stick with standard English Q.

Pre-season football talk:

. false staht, fah yaht pinldee

. pass pertecshin

. steel third down

I don't speak New Jersian
==============

New Joysian

Michael Ruppert: Financial Interests Behind the London Riots - http://goo.gl/HWwyF

The same old divide and conquer tactics by the same old characters. Make it about anything but the real issue, that of economic exploitation and expropriation. Michael Ruppert is perfect in his analysis.

When people here at CFN such as Dale, Turkle and a slew of other libs, want to disparage someone like, well, me, their MO typically is to claim that everything you know or believe was picked up from FOX news and in particular from Rush Limbaugh and Glen Beck.

In MY case, at least, this is absurd although the accusers have no way of knowing this. Until a few months ago I couldn't even have told you what Beck looked like. But driven by curiosity, after hearing this accusation against myself and others, I had to do a google search just to find out where and when on TV I might check this guy out.

No sooner did I watch a few of Beck's shows when he bailed from FOX and that was that. I haven't seen him since.

I find ALL political talking heads incredibly annoying and this includes Beck, Rush and O'Reilly. But I must say, those 3 can't hold a candle to their opposite numbers on MSNBC, Rachel Maddow and a square-jawed ultra-liberal named Lawrence O'Donnell who only recently crossed my radar screen.

I know the expression "makes my skin crawl" is only that - an expression - and, to my knowledge, no one's skin actually feels like it's crawling, but I am at a loss for an appropriate metaphor to describe this O'Donnell dude's effect on me so I'll just go with this guy makes my skin crawl.

The cake was taken last week when I noticed a spot ad being run over and over where O'Donnell says (and I wish I had written down his exact words) that health is a basic human need and therefore we, as a nation, must address this need not just in our country but on a global basis.

Can you imagine? We have enough of a problem dealing with the health of our own 300 million people and he says, with a straight face, we must address the health of the earth's 7 BILLION people.

WOW, why no mention of the other basic human needs like food, clothing and shelter? I guess we'll tackle those after we take care of global health.

Frankly, I say people on the other side of my town, much less the other side of the globe, are going to have to fend for themselves. I've got my hands full already.

Once a person adopts liberal socialist doctrine there simply is no end to the obligations.


LBendet said:

Europe has developed through the centuries as very localized groups with many conflicts and stresses from group to group, so it is in fact a short-lived dream to form as one group. All this is a futile exercise in philosophical constructs, like communism. Corporate global communism doesn't work any better.
****************************************************

I want to start by saying that I didn't really
think you'd take my first post last night as a
"drubbing" ... I have great respect for the
solidity of your thinking and your erudition
but now and then I'm a bit impish and enjoy
ribbing people. In this day and age, I see
world stupefaction as a constant with roughly
equal numbers of "practitioners" in virtually
all sides of the political equation.

Global corporate communism, a great phrase by
the way, almost seems like an extension of the
hidden Marxism of the PNAC doctrines of
"remaking the world in America's image". Paul
Wolfowitz and a few lesser PNAC luminaries were,
in fact, IDEOLOGICAL Marxists in their younger
days who "reincarnated" as "Neoconservatives".

I view the Republican fawning over global "free"
markets (and where are they, by the way??) as
being very similar in its philosophical naivety
to the "we are family" idealism behind the EU.

Globalism has led to an incredibly predictable
result ... a "race to the bottom" where
multinational corporations see who's willing to
live at the lowest salary and in the greatest
squalor so that shareholders and bondholders
can concentrate their wealth. And, surprise
surprise, that's what's evolving in the world.
English youth in Tottenham who are living in
conditions scarcely above those of an Indian
peasant. An America where SIXTEEN percent of
the population lives in HUNGER (not just below
the poverty line!!).

Globalism is Planet Earth's greatest cancer of
the mind.


E.


Hancock said:

Even the dimwitted American Peasantry must learn to live with Rwadandan-level wealth and power distribution...and that means fewer beads and trinkets, fewer Cheez Doodles to gorge on.
***************************************************

We're about half way there. Sixteen percent of
Americans live in hunger. About 27% of "home
owners" (the quotes are for irony) owe more
than the current assessed values of their homes
and in several cities, like Phoenix and Las
Vegas it's way more than FIFTY percent.

This is Bush's "ownership society" ... what a
collosal imbecile he was. However, we live in
an era of such stupendous stupefaction that
everyone from individuals to entire countries
cannot do elementary arithmetic to see whether
their way of life has even short-term
sustainability.

Even the money-hoarding Chinese seem to have a
problem with valueing money over the health of
their citizens. Their water supply is
critically low, much of it is poisoned, and
their cities are the smoggiest places on earth.

Rank stupidity is the unifying principle of the
human "family" in 2011.

E.


I am alarmed at the plausible disinformation
given out today on the biz channels. Their
argument for buying stocks is that corporations
have great balance sheets.

However, the pundits on the shows on these
channels know damned well that profit margins
have nowhere to go but down, corporate taxes
are at ONE CENTURY lows, and the Fed's "zero
interest rates until 2013) policy is a direct
announcement of zero to negative growth in the
USA.

I watched this shit on a friend's TV that still
has cable. It was really difficult to swallow
this nonsense given that the pundits disseminating
it knew perfectly well that it was utter
bullshit.


E.


Qshtik said:

I am still hoping to here how you intend to "definancialize" whatever 401k, money, or savings you possess.
**************************************************

Well, well ... the spelling taskmaster himself
makes a gaffe. :-) Of course, it's "hear", not
"here". Just remember that a lot of mistakes are
just brain farts, not stupidity.

How do I propose to "definancialize"?? Well, first you need to know what I mean in the first
place. What I mean is DO NOT FEED YOUR BROKER,
above all!!! Do NOT "transact". If I had to
file a tax return tomorrow it would not even
have a Schedule D in it.

What I do NOT mean is "do not own ANY financial
instruments". Of course, that is IMPOSSIBLE.
So I have bank accounts and Series I Savings
Bonds. That's it. I do not have an IRA or
any retirement vehicle aside from the monthly
checks I get from the California State Teachers
Retirement System (CalSTRS) which is a .com and
NOT a .gov or .ca.gov ... and is run mostly by
ex-TIAA interns ... TIAA being one of very,
very few insurers/annuities that still has a
Weiss A+ rating. Weiss' A and A+ ratings are
very, very rare at this time.

I do NOT consider GOLD as a form of
"definancializing" since it is an exchange-
traded commodity and one which I find absurd
no matter what value it ascends to. It's
"value" is purely psychological. Oil and
food have NO psychological component ... they
are necessities. Gold, on the other hand, is
even MORE "financial" in a sense than stocks
because stocks, at least in theory, stand for
partial ownership of a company. Gold stands
for ownership of lumps of a metal that is
absolutely worthless to the common man aside
from the vanity of jewelry.


E.


Buck Stud said:

The sneering and insolent 'Rebel Without A Cause' ethos was also influenced by a black man: James Dean had a vision one night of a handsome bombastic black man dancing around the ring slinging poetry and civilized white Aerica has never been the same since. And the "Hell No We Wont Go" chants slung at The Man - how dare those black kids project such defiance on the American War Machine.
***************************************************

How did we get from SPORTS to James Dean. I love
"logicians" like you who steer an argument into a
domain that I certainly never entered in my post
and then deliver "refutations" to points I never
made.

My argument was about sports and when it strayed
out of sports it was to point out that white
America has borrowed the WORST parts of black
culture to emulate. I did not say that black
America had no culture. I did not say they
made no contributions to sports (in fact, I
said the opposite). I've pointed out that
decent blacks must cringe at honkies emulating
stuff they certainly don't want lionized.

Dude, you have to learn to READ posts that have
SUBTLETY and not argue against straw men. I'd
almost bet that you're one of the lily white
suburbanites I've mentioned so frequently who've
never had a person of color in their life to
ANY meaningful extent. NOBODY of ANY race is
HONEST about racism. That includes blacks,
Hispanics, Pacific Islanders, and any other
group you'd like to tout.

And the irony of all of this is that as a white
conservative, I have SEVERAL black and Hispanic
people in my life ROUTINELY who I think of as
just people ... who differ from the mainstream
of their cultures just as an intelligent honkie
would differ from the white trash that now
litters our country.

When I write about a topic, respond to what I
write, NOT ridiculous extrapolations about what
I write ... that is, if you're capable of such
restraint and perspicacity.


E.


Vlad said:

So you identify with their rebel stance - yeah you and millions of other White "kids" of all ages. But do they identify with us? A crucial question don't you think? White kids wear the T shirts of Black atheletes but the reverse? No. And do the Blacks most able to assimilate into White Culture intend to do so? No. Dr West and another prominent Black supporter of Obama (name escapes me) are going around protesting him. Their beef? He hasn't appropriated enough White wealth for Blacks. That IS the Black viewpoint. Herman Cains and Clarence Thomas's are as rare as hens teeth. But you probably go along with all that too since you probably have little to lose in that department. You wont complain if tens of millions of Whites are robbed and beaten - only if you are.
*************************************************

Vlad,

You are getting to an issue which ALL of these
Rainbow Coalition Honkies ***refuse*** to
address i.e., the issue of black racism against
whites. Does Buck Stud think Cosby and Connerly
are heroes in the black community?? And what
are their "crimes"? Cosby is trying to clean
up the "muhfuggah" language of young blacks (which
is now de rigeur in white trash social life) and
Connerly instituted a "color blind" admission
system in the U. of California ... which the
blacks hate because it led to even FEWER black
admissions. Connerly went color blind, it did
not give blacks the desired result, so he must
be an "Uncle Tom". He has received, according
to one report I've read, more than 50,000 DEATH
THREATS.

Buck Stud's "logic" in his "refutation" of my
post about Mohammed Ali was far from stunning
since he never addressed the primary issues of
my post about the bad sportsmanship and
grandstanding veritably STARTED by Ali. I do
not expect any future missives of his to have
any more sense than the ones I've seen of late.


E.

The New York Times had an article on Stockwell Day a few years back, when his star was rising fast, that gave a different impression of the religious scene in Alberta, and I'm not sure that regional bias was all there was to it.

What really stood out to me was a description of Day's campaign stop at a slightly fringy Evangelical church in Red Deer, where he told the audience that he believed in a 6,000 year old earth free of evolution. It sounded like run-of-the-mill insincere pandering to zealots, but there were things about the story that bewildered me. A savvy politician, Day must have seen some political advantage in pandering to this crowd, which raised questions of just how politically powerful and mainstream the Evangelical fringe was in Alberta. This group seemed pretty far out compared to everything else I'd heard about Alberta politics. Maybe Day was spinning different yarns for different audiences, which many politicians do. I had a gut feeling that the Times had cherrypicked this anecdote in order to make Day and Albertans look like a bunch of Bible-thumpers, but at the same time I imagined that throwing bones to the zealots could well have been standard practice on the prairie.

State-to-province comparisons are tricky, as we've discussed, but one comparison I find apt is between Alberta and Colorado. The geography and population distribution are pretty similar, for one thing, and as far as I know the demographic and cultural variations are aligned more or less on the same bands.

The basic layout in Colorado is heavily depopulated, aging, conservative (65-75% Republican), churchgoing, mostly Protestant farm and ranch country on the High Plains; a very liberal (55-80% Democratic) Denver metro area, with a low rate of church attendance and a lot of young people; a similar population in the ski resort areas of the Rockies; and a band of low-key, libertarian-leaning conservatism in Grand Junction and a number of other mountain areas away from the swanky parts of the High Rockies.

By many measures, Colorado is the most physically fit state in the union. If I'm not mistaken, that would make it our BC if we were to take a narrow view.

CO has one major cultural anomaly: Colorado Springs, one of the most heavily Evangelical and politically conservative mid-sized cities in the US, often called the "Evangelical Vatican." It seems to be in a class of its own. Worryingly, the local Evangelicals have aggressively colonized the US Air Force Academy, which has potentially serious implications for our military and foreign policy. Bad things happen when people arrogantly think that they enjoy God's favor and superior air power. One thing I will say for Springs Evangelicals, though, is that they are generally a much more magnanimous breed, and thus much more conducive to an open and free society, than the rabid freaks and slimy cons from the South who have also grabbed the coattails of the "Christian" industry. You'll get an idea of this if you watch TBN and pay attention to who's broadcasting from where.


You obviously don't know sports very well if
you rank Maurice Richard up there with the
goons of the NHL of 2011. Please. I watched
the Original Six all through my childhood and
I *know* that you don't know what the hell
you're talking about. The level of fighting
in the 2011 NHL and the SERIOUS kidney
checks and stick-blades-to-the-head are WAAAAY
worse, incomparably so, compared to 1960.
Are you even OLD ENOUGH to comment on this
because I'm sensing you're trying to "defeat"
me from ONE WIKIPEDIA PAGE where you dug up
Eddie Shore and Ace Bailey ... from 1934.

However, let's get to the rest of your point.
Who in hell are Ace Bailey and Lou Fontonato??
Certainly not paradigm-changing athletes like
Mohammed Ali since I've been a sports fan from
my earliest viewings (around 1958) to present.
Indeed, the obscurity of these "titans" you
bring up almost defeats your argument without
refutation. It's like comparing Barry Bonds
to some obscure .225 hitter from 1934 like
you did with Ace Bailey.

EVERYONE knows who Mohammed Ali is. Why don't
you poll CFN and see if anyone knows who the
hell Lou Fontonato is. Capiche??


E.


Vlad said:

Oh and can you define racism? Or do you want to keep it vague so you can keep beating up on other Whites - just so you can feel hip and so, so, so very art school superior?

The motto of La Raza: For our Race everything, and for other races nothing.
***************************************************

Well said, Vlad. Succinct ... and FUNNY because
all of these phony egalitarians are "art school
superior". I know it's true because I live in
a part of America (SF Bay Area) where it FEELS
like 25% of Gen-Y fancy themselves artists with
all the associated smugness and high-handed
self-advertising about their humanitarianism.

Remember, Vlad, ... only HONKIE is racist while
all of the other ethnicities love Whitey [sic].
These people are DISGUSTING to me at a visceral
level.

The real truth is that Vietnamese don't like
Chinese, Chinese dislike blacks waaaaaay more
than whites do (the Chinese hate nearly
everyone), Hispanics don't like Asians, etc.
ad nauseum. No one would ever dare to write
a true history of racism on earth because it
wouldn't elevate all the "noble savages".


E.

That corresponds pretty closely to the timeline that I've noticed for the rising tide of narcissism in the US. I wasn't alive for it, but there seems to have been a huge spike in narcissistic attitudes and behavior in the sixties and seventies, following a smaller spike in the fifties. Maybe bad sportsmanship, self-esteem nonsense, and the evaporation of our former sense of commonwealth are different facets of the same stone.

Aptly enough, Thomas Sowell (likely a literal Uncle Tom; definitely a certified Uncle Tom in PC Land) has published material that could be assembled into a fairly comprehensive history of racism. Germans, whom he covered in detail in "Germans and History," come out on the top of the heap for tolerance of other cultures. The English do very well on human rights. None of the "savages" come away looking nearly as noble.

"Black Rednecks and White Liberals" is a solid history of early interplay between low-class blacks and low-class whites and resulting social dysfunction through the present day. I have to take issue with his use of the term "redneck," though, since much of the degraded culture that he describes is straight-up white trash, in contrast to upstanding redneck culture (which, to a somewhat unclear extent, does exist; I've encountered it).

Feel free to tell my fellow Palo Altans (I'm a native) that some of my favorite authors are black people.

Thank you for the link.
I looked at other videos of Michael Ruppert that I didn´t know and NOW finally I can understand the connection between Peak oil and the economic-financial-political collapse.

Our industrialized society cannot survive without energy and energy is oil, because there is NOTHING that can take its place.
The always growing economy could live thanks to the alwys growing supply of oil.
With peak oil we had peak economy.
Going back to the previous economy that hardly could feed 5 billions less people means just one thing: many will die.
We can go back to a world made by hand, but many do not understand what this means.
Two hundreds years ago food was precious and scarse.
It will be much more now with so many more to feed.
It will be a war for survival, for water, for land, for food.

God, if a God exists, bless us.


Patrizia said:

Our industrialized society cannot survive without energy and energy is oil, because there is NOTHING that can take its place.
***************************************************

Spain and Germany have done our dirty work by
discovering that the energy to keep up wind
farms is so large that they are scarcely worth
the effort. It's all about ERoEI (Energy Returned
over Energy Invested) and wind isn't doing so well. And as JHK has pointed out eloquently and
often, the making of the components and the
servicing of the components stands on the back
of the oil infrastructure without which it would
not be possible.

Solar is a kind of odd tragicomedy. You see
these ENORMOUS arrays in the desert with
dozens and dozens and dozens of arrays of
solar panels, each array with hundreds or even
thousands of solar panels. Then the documentary
goes on to say that this "village" of panels
powers a city of THIRTY THOUSAND.

Natural Gas, short term, is our ONLY "bridge"
technology because it can power cars and is
abundant ... for now. Natgas might buy us a
couple of decades to try for solar breakthroughs
but those breakthroughs would have to be
something epochal like a SOLAR CAPACITOR that
is the equivalent of an electric capacitor.
Right now, solar is millions of tons of
components (many TOXIC) to power up to maybe
one or two hundred thousand people. Put
differently, solar scales VERY poorly and,
once again, the making, refining, fixing, and
disposing of the panels stands on the back of
the oil infrastructure.

All of this is why it is important for JHK to
get the message out there and to keep shouting
it ... for it seems that even in 2011, few are
listening.


E.



Diogen said:

But you yourself want to be seen as an individual, right? Someone may generalize YOU as being a part of the liberal white do-gooders, that would sting won't it? In fact I'd bet there are lots of "white" subgroups you'd hate to be generalized and pigeonholed with
****************************************************

I call "bullshit" here. Generalization is a
legit rhetorical tactic when you're trying to
make GENERAL points. The very nature of GENERAL
points is that you are making a STATISTICAL
OBSERVATION OF A POPULATION ... not a statement
about individuals.

It is easily possible for anyone to RATIONALLY
fear a group of a certain race or ethnicity
because of their frequency of criminality yet
like or even LOVE individuals of that race or
ethnicity who clearly do NOT manifest violent
or other aversive behaviors.

The very FORM of your rebuttal against Vlad is
nonsense. I'd bet a huge sum in Vegas that if
you are white and you're on a lonely street late
at night and four young black guys approach you,
your fight-or-flight response would kick in
about 1000% more than if four white guys of
similar build approached. This is just
ARITHMETIC. A lot of dumb people cannot wrap
their head around the difference between
PRE-JUDGMENT (a.k.a. "prejudice") and sound
thinking based on DATA.

Why don't you read the statistics on per capita
rates of rape, murder, and theft committed by
black Americans (and redouble your effort by
looking at educational performance) and then
do the same for non-black Americans and break
it down by ethnicity. You'll find what
everyone already knows ... black and Hispanic
rates of various kinds of mayhem range from
a few hundred to many THOUSAND percent higher
than the dreaded whitey.

Do you think that the White Flight of the 1960s
to the suburbs was based upon RACISM? If you
do, you're essentially saying that the fleeing
honkies are stupid for observing that blacks not
only committed more crimes but also kept up
their houses like shit, okay? Moreover, you're
saying their racist.

On other subjects, I often find myself in
agreement with my liberal adversaries ... about
Peak Oil, the current travesties in finance,
etc. but they are, almost to a man/woman,
willfully blind, deaf, and dumb about the
nature and implications of NUMBERS. How can
one argue with people whose philosophical
jibber-jabber does not START and END with
DATA?? It's a waste of breath.


E.

>It is easily possible for anyone to RATIONALLY
fear a group of a certain race or ethnicity

I agree. You misunderstood the nature of my argument with Vlad (or perhaps I didn't make it clear). I reject his notion that entire racial/ethnic GROUPS, rather than INDIVIDUALS within those groups, who are responsible for the actions of the individuals. THis is actually a very conservative stand -- individuals must be held responsible :)

I'm absolutely well aware of the high rates of criminal behaviour among blacks of certain socio-economic demographics. I tend to believe it's the function of the class/culture/economics rather than genes which is where I depart from Vlad. Last I checked, the Vikings, various footbal ("soccer") hooligans, Serbian and Russian thugs were all Caucasians. American blacks who are middle-class and educated probably have the rates of crime similar to the mainstream white rates of crime.
Or more generally, blacks who have been lucky to avoid the deadly effects of the misguided welfare policies of the last 40-some years, probably also show rates of crimes within the range of other races.

Vlad makes all the time statements that apply to some individuals in a group, sometimes very few individuals in that group, and projects that on all or most individuals. For example, he said that JEWS are responsible for putting Rap Music on the radio. WHat does it mean, the entire Jewish religios/ethnic group? I checked the list of the biggest radio stations in the country out of curiosity, and it didn't seem to me that jews owned all or most of them. Only one appeared to have a jewish connection. Look at

http://airtalents.com/broadcasting-schools.html

So, what what I was objecting to was demonizing entire groups because of a few, or even many, bad apples within those groups. THis is a pragmatic approach to the problems. If the problem is the entire racial/ethnic group and their genes, then there's no solution except eliminating them. But if the problem is the behavior of a few, or many, individuals within those racial groups, take measures against the individuals. Heck, I say turn New Joysey into one big penal colony, surround it by barbed wire and minefields, and force all the criminals of all colors do hard labour doing something useful like grammar checking on this site so Q could take a vacation :)


OK, this is an example of Vlad's post that I have a hard time agreeing with.

Vlad said "And Cash thinks they're going to blend in with us - HA! White Kids are being dragged down by their degraded music and videos in second rate thug copies of Black Thugs. The ethnic group that put this crap on the radio and tv has alot to answer for."

So, he's saying THE ETHNIC GROUP (which I assume he means jews) "has alot to answer for". What is this, collective punishment? Should we punish my buddy next door, a jew, who despises hip-hop and rap culture, or my biking buddy another jew who incidentally believes that Israel was a big mistake, do they have to answer for it? Or speaking of blacks, the nicest black guy who tends the plot in the community garden where we have ours -- should I hold him responsible for the black thugs who're burning London? That's such nonsense.

That, ELEUTHERO, was my argument with Vlad.

Pretty harsh, given my comments to you, but I mind quite a bit less because you have so much of value to say, whether I agree or disagree with it.

However, I can dish it out, so I'd damed well better be able to take it, and it certainly does go down easier when someone I can respect gives it to me.

You said:

The level of fighting in the 2011 NHL and the SERIOUS kidney checks and stick-blades-to-the-head are WAAAAY worse, incomparably so, compared to 1960. Are you even OLD ENOUGH to comment on this because I'm sensing you're trying to "defeat" me from ONE WIKIPEDIA PAGE where you dug up Eddie Shore and Ace Bailey ... from 1934.

Rather surprising comment on your part, considering that I have always believed you to be and treated you as an honest commentor.

Now you treat me like one of CFNs handful of serial liars, deceivers, demagouges, and douchebags.

Again, it wouldn't matter much if what you said to me came from one of them. Since it didn't, I feel compelled to reply.

I am, as I said, a lifetime serious hockey fan who's enthusiasm has slacked only in recent years. I watched and deeply followed the NHL for most of my life. Yes, I am just a little too young to have personally watched the Original Six, but I have watched quite a bit of old tapes/DVDs of old games and fights. When I was a kid I read the NHL Encycolpedia from cover to cover many times, and many other hockey books, as well.

So, I am what I represent myself as, not just someone who Googled a quick page and blathered about something I know nothing about. Believe me or not, because no one can really know on the Internets, and I still could be furiously lying and Googling.

But I'm not. You sensed wrongly.

Finally, as to this comment:

However, let's get to the rest of your point. Who in hell are Ace Bailey and Lou Fontonato?? Certainly not paradigm-changing athletes like Mohammed Ali since I've been a sports fan from my earliest viewings (around 1958) to present. Indeed, the obscurity of these "titans" you bring up almost defeats your argument without refutation. It's like comparing Barry Bonds to some obscure .225 hitter from 1934 like you did with Ace Bailey.

EVERYONE knows who Mohammed Ali is. Why don't
you poll CFN and see if anyone knows who the
hell Lou Fontonato is. Capiche??

You make a solid point, but it's one I already conceded to you in my last post to you. I SPECIFICALLY SAID:

I am not saying your entire post is without merit...

Know why I said that? Because of the partial validity of the point you just made (at least that's my opinion). I said it so you wouldn't have to make it, since I at least partially agree with you about cultural shifts in modern sports, and I really didn't wish to argue the nuances over something we at least partially agree on.

I also said it because I wasn't comparing the stature of Ali and Shore (who was the aggressor, with Bailey the victim, remember?) or their influence, but rather obliquely suggesting that perhaps you are loooking at the "old days" through rose-colored glasses, and comparing the levels of violence of said acts.

Ever heard the old scientists' adage, "Correlation does not equal causation"? That is another possibility. That the things you describe have been influenced by many other factors in addition to the one you mentioned.

Such as:

The change in our sports teams to Transnational Corporate Mega-business and the rise of our Gladiators from the Poor or Lower-Middle Classes to 0.1% level wealth (but not 0.01%, where nearly all the political power in the former USA now resides).

Why wouldn't that be a contributing factor as well? After all 21st Century America is skyrocketing in terms of third-world-style corruption, politics, ignorance, media, law, law enforcement, etc. Why wouldn't our Sports Industry reflect those same changes, as well?

Why wouldn't our sports and gladiators also become more Third-World in their behavior, since the former USA has been doing so now for 31 years and the process has gained immense speed in the last 11 years and now continues to speed up, even in the reign of Emperor RW Corporate Socialist Seat-Warmer Obama?

How about this alternate explanation about the modern prevalence of stick to head shots?

They all are wearing helmets. In the old days, if you struck a helmetless head with the stick, serious injury was possible and even probable...maybe death. Nowadays, the head is protected and that must have an effect on how players view head shots, especially in the heat of battle with adrenaline flowing and thought at a minimum.

I am merely speculating alternative hypotheses for you to consider, not even as a seperate cause but perhaps as the primary cause.

However, if it makes you feel better, feel free to rip me again, if you wish.

Nice posts, E - I'd never considered pigeon holing you as "conservative" until you just self-identified that way. I'm still going to think of you as intelligent, logical, and pragmatic.
Interesting, eh?

Regarding:
"Natural Gas, short term, is our ONLY "bridge"
technology because it can power cars and is
abundant ... for now. Natgas might buy us a
couple of decades..."
-E-
Virtually ALL of humanity thinks a decade is a long time. Thus, asking human societies or their leaderships to think out 5 decades - is asking the impossible.

Thus, extrapolating real DATA and trends - we find the formerly United States in 2 to 6 decades - balkanized, starving, long-since descended into a helpless third world miasma.

I may have mentioned, just once or twice?, that reducing US immigration rates is the best way to avert TOTAL CATASTROPHE. I don't consider that a "dead horse," but if it is - I'm going to flog it into mincemeat. (Buck, JonathanSS, others - just roll with it, OK)
==================
Regarding:
"if you are white and you're on a lonely street late
at night and four young black guys approach you,
your fight-or-flight response would kick in
about 1000% more than if four white guys of
similar build approached."
-E-
Probably true, E, but not by too wide of a margin. And if I were black - I'd rather deal with 4 black guys than 4 white guys.

It's human nature to make these sorts of value judgments through a racial lens. That's why *most* neighborhoods (and most high school lunch tables, even) are now, and will always be - self-segregated by race.

Though all the races manage to live in the US today, in relative peace - - Courtesy of pretty good law enforcement and abundant petroleum.

Trends. Data. Logic. Time for a new paradigm?

Ok, I'm out 'till Sunday afternoon or evening.
Hancock, SNAFU, Buck, Vlad, Bill, others -

The problem with dialog on CFN is that we never quite know if it stops due to agreement, indifference, or disgust.

Maybe we've fought our issues down to a draw, for now?

Have a great weekend, CFN.

And try to make time for a pleasurable clusterf*ck, occasionally! hahahohohehe

Resources are dwindling worldwide. Global climate change is compounding the problem. Most of the world’s overpopulation is generations away from a 21st Century understanding that could moderate their pre scientific age beliefs, so the “population bomb” is imported to any place of refuge they seek in effort escape the impact of their practice of unlimited family size. Western nations of European heritage -- hence, modernist understanding of issue, thus more stabilized population and subsequent higher standard of living – are sought as refuge destinations.

As Isaac Asimov framed morality from the modernist understanding, “More than two children is environmental immorality”. That attitude must be accepted as a cultural value more relevant to our time and circumstance than all the “diversity” of pre scientific cultures that the PC crowd wish to “celebrate” as though they had no more significance than a range selections in ethnic restaurant warming trays.

Get over such sentimentalism; we’re facing a die-off of human population and aid to places like Somalia and Haiti are acts of denial. Such money could better be spent in securing our own future which is sketchy at best in face of the great contraction already taking place.

Well, well ... the spelling taskmaster himself
makes a gaffe. :-) Of course, it's "hear", not
"here". Just remember that a lot of mistakes are
just brain farts, not stupidity.
===================

Well, well ... our west coast computer scientist himself made a mouse fart ... he failed to scroll one inch farther and see that I immediately corrected myself.
;-)

Could you use a tube or two?
Get yours today! Act now and we'll throw in an EXTRA tube for half price! Operators are standing by!

http://www.bigfatwhale.com/archives/bfw_516.htm

A part of the problem is also the quantity you consume.
My grandfather (born in 189something)had a factory and produced the energy with the water.
He even built a gas stove for my grandmother with gas produced by coal.
And it worked quite well.
When he saw a waterfall he could tell you approximately how much energy you could produce with it.
At that time, when they only consumed electricity for lamps the need was so little you didn´t need any oil.
If we (and Americans in first row) hadn´t wasted so much, oil would have lasted much longer.
Of course it is never too late to begin...
Also with food.
If we consider the amount of food we waste we could feed a lot more people and probably enjoy a better health.

I had a gut feeling that the Times had cherrypicked this anecdote in order to make Day and Albertans look like a bunch of Bible-thumpers - AMR

Interesting stuff you wrote about Colorado. And you hit the nail on the head about the cherrypicking. Alberta is a bastion of Christian zealots only in the Toronto imagination.

What Alberta was in the 1980s when my wife and I lived there was a really young province demographically, full of migrants from other parts of Canada, especially the oil fields. Full of young Quebecers and Newfoundlanders. Religious it wasn't. Until the NEP and the oil market downturn hit the place was raining money and it was a free wheeling meat market. And it is still one of the youngest provinces in the country. What's different now is that it's attracting more people from outside Canada.

The oil boom is back on and has been for a while. Alberta was no country for old men when we were there and it goes double now. If you go to work in the oil field you will work your ASS off. The money is good but accommodation is scarce and really pricey. I've heard of guys paying a grand a month to sleep on a couch.

Same type of thing if you go to work in Calgary (the head ofc town). It had a hard charging business environment and from what I hear it still has. The Calgary population is around a million or twice what it was when we lived there.

I'm going to have a gander at census results on Alberta and see if I can find anything on Colorado. It would be neat to see how the numbers compare.

How do I propose to "definancialize"?? Well, first you need to know what I mean in the first
place. What I mean is DO NOT FEED YOUR BROKER,
above all!!! Do NOT "transact". If I had to
file a tax return tomorrow it would not even
have a Schedule D in it. -E.

I transact all the time and do not use a broker and pay zero commissions. I do NOT file a schedule D either because all of my transactions are within a self-directed IRA brokerage account. -Q.

What I do NOT mean is "do not own ANY financial
instruments". Of course, that is IMPOSSIBLE.
So I have bank accounts and Series I Savings
Bonds. That's it. -E.

Unless you're Lloyd Blanlfein's first cousin your bank accounts earn you virtually nothing so they are losing money as they erode via inflation. I'm not familiar with Series I Savings Bonds. Are they issued by the US Govt.? If so, their yield is less than the rate of inflation as well. And, of course, do not be duped by the published CPI rate. The current annual yield on 10 year bonds is around 2.3%. -Q.

I do not have an IRA or any retirement vehicle aside from the monthly checks I get from the California State Teachers Retirement System (CalSTRS) which is a .com and NOT a .gov or .ca.gov ... and is run mostly by
ex-TIAA interns ... TIAA being one of very,
very few insurers/annuities that still has a
Weiss A+ rating. Weiss' A and A+ ratings are
very, very rare at this time. -E.

Did you have to contribute into CalSTRS? When you receive retirement checks from them is the money taxed as ordinary income the same way as if you were taking monthly withdrawals from a tax deferred plan such as a 401k or IRA. And where do you think CalSTRS is keeping all those billions of people's retirement money? Answer: In financial instruments of course. The difference between you and me then is that you are allowing someone else to choose the financial instruments in which your money is invested while I am making my own decisions. -Q.

I do NOT consider GOLD as a form of
"definancializing" since it is an exchange-
traded commodity and one which I find absurd
no matter what value it ascends to. It's
"value" is purely psychological. -E.

Q- Yes, gold's value has been psychological for all of recorded history. It's probably related to why Tutankhamun's Mask is gold. But I've been over all this ground many times with Asoka. The two of you are in the school that says "if you can't eat it it has no value." Further debate regarding gold would be a waste of keystrokes.

In short, the only way to "definancialize" is to be absolutely destitute.

No question about it; during the 20th century the Western, developed nations’ ability to leverage most of the world’s resources fostered misconception of their own population carrying capacity at sustainable levels.

This misunderstanding might be their (our) undoing, certainly when it comes to maintaining anything of accustomed standard of living and quality of life (not meaning luxury autos, but the “intrinsic” qualities of ample water and food supply, wilderness experience, species diversity and habitat). Without unsentimental measures against tsunami of would-be refugees from the now unavoidable collapse elsewhere, we too are doomed.

Blanlfein's s/b Blankfein's and IRA. s/b IRA?

Big Government is seen as a safe investment.
=================
********* BREAKING NEWS *********
Asoka makes ass of self AGAIN!!
Declares:
. Black is white
. 2 + 2 = 5
. The earth is flat
=========================

Q, you are hurting my feelings. Not only are citizens buying USA Treasuries, instead of gold. Other countries are buying USA Treasuries.

For example, Japan has been buying U.S. Treasuries when it sells yen. China is buying USA Treasuries. They could just as easily buy Canadian, Swiss and Australian bonds, but they don't.

USA Big Government is the one that is trusted to repay with interest. Big Government is seen as a safe investment.

I stopped watching hockey around the time when the Broad Street bullies won the Cup (in 1974 I think). It was a coming for a while. The game had degnerated IMO.

I couldn't fathom Canada scraping by the Soviets in the Canada USSR hockey summit in 1972. The USSR, being a superpower, had to excel in all sports or at least try to (like the USA). Canada had to excel only in one - hockey. We should have wiped the floor with them. And that slash to Kharlamov's ankle was pure dirt. And I don't want to try to understand how a defenceman - Bobby Orr - could become scoring champion. Twice.

So now sometimes when I watch the sports segment of the news I hear of NHL teams in places like Arizona and Florida. Really strange stuff.

"So now sometimes when I watch the sports segment of the news I hear of NHL teams in places like Arizona and Florida. Really strange stuff." -Cash

That is mighty counter-intuitive, ain't it?
We'll see how the priorities line up when maintenance of a big sheet of ice in ambient temps of triple-digits gets "spendy". Let's see; food delivery to the supermarket or hockey; food delivery, hockey... hmmm, tough one, but I think I'll go with the hockey; that food stuff is over-rated. Could I maybe get a crust of bread and a Coke to go with this gladitory event?

Or would that be, "gladiatorial" event? I dunno, looks much more righterer to me. ;o)

And now for a short respite:

http://www.youtube.com/user/jigokuotoko#p/u/27/siKSzS3xAoE

Did you like that? Lots of great stuff from this guy and his buds on this site: their rendition of "Sunny', Seccond Impact, Gracing. I could listen to this stuff all day.

Another short respite:

http://www.youtube.com/user/NIKUMANGUITAR#p/u/0/c7vavQvZIsM

Judging by the unsmiling demeanor, the fury of her playing and the title of the tune "From Hell With Love" I would wager that she just got dumped by her boyfriend and she's hurting bad. Pain here as the source of inspiration.

I would go with "gladiatorial".

But I've been over all this ground many times with Asoka. The two of you are in the school that says "if you can't eat it it has no value."

Q, you are twisting my words. I distinctly remember saying gold is shiny and good for decoration... that I would put gold plating on my outhouse door as decoration. That is a little bit of value.

But in terms of buying food in the supermarket, don't try to buy food with gold coins. The clerk would stare at you, then call the manager, then have you kicked out for wasting their time.

Gold is useless for food. Take fiat money. The supermarkets love fiat money. Fiat money works.

Check out the opinion page of any major newspaper, or listen to any news-discussion program, and you’re likely to encounter some self-proclaimed centrist declaring that there are no short-run fixes for our economic difficulties, that the responsible thing is to focus on long-run solutions and, in particular, on “entitlement reform” — that is, cuts in Social Security and Medicare. And when you do encounter such a person, you should be aware that people like that are a major reason we’re in so much trouble.
For the fact is that right now the economy desperately needs a short-run fix. When you’re bleeding profusely from an open wound, you want a doctor who binds that wound up, not a doctor who lectures you on the importance of maintaining a healthy lifestyle as you get older. When millions of willing and able workers are unemployed, and economic potential is going to waste to the tune of almost $1 trillion a year, you want policy makers who work on a fast recovery, not people who lecture you on the need for long-run fiscal sustainability. -- Paul Krugman

asoka, it is possible to get gold converted into fiat money. So it isn't useless for good. Just an FYI.

And supposing if society collapses entirely, you'd probably be better off with a few little bits of gold to exchange for food rather than useless pieces of paper, which will only be good to burn for keeping warm.

You want me to read the "subtlety' of your assertion - that 'grandstanding' and bad sportsmanship started with Ali - when in fact, you're completely wrong. And by the way, Subtle One, there are no large fences or lines that demarcate one cultural endeavor from another, and that was especially true in the sixties. Moreover, it's not simply a gross matter of whites emulating the worst of black culture. It's far more subtle than that. It's also a matter of blacks forcibly subjected to the worst of white culture and it's also a matter of all races being exposed to the polite sportsmanship that such events as Roller Derby and Professional Wrestling imbued on large swaths of the America populous via television.

But back to Ali and your assertion that he was the first to display 'in your face' sportsmanship and grandstanding. Do you honestly believe this and from this assertion you want me to acknowledge your subtlety? Sorry E, I respect many of your post but on this count you simply don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

Good to see that there are people who actually think.

I read an article a few weeks ago about a PV system installed in Yosemite at a cost in excess of $4M. The guy managing the project said, "it will save us $50,000 a year in electricity".

Can he not do simple math? The payback period is ridiculous, not even factoring in the lifetime of the electronics (20 years on the inverter) and maintenance (such as keeping the panels clean of dust, dirt and bird droppings).

...pieces of paper, which will only be good to burn for keeping warm.

Turkle, I did not even want to get into the thermic advantage of fiat money over gold, but you are right.

If I have a wheelbarrow of one-dollar bills fiat money, I can use it to light fires and not freeze to death. If I only had gold, I would freeze to death. Gold just is not as useful as paper when it comes to starting a fire in a wood stove.

You say: "And supposing if society collapses entirely..." ... In that case nobody would be so stupid as to trade thermally valuable paper for inert cold pieces of gold, especially in winter.

Fiat money rules! (and has for the last 60 years)

On the US Dollar appears the words: "In God we trust."

[Enter Beavis dressed like Jesus]

Beavis: "Hello everybody. I'm Jesus. I need money. Give me money."


" Well said, Vlad. Succinct ... and FUNNY because
all of these phony egalitarians are "art school
superior". I know it's true because I live in
a part of America (SF Bay Area) where it FEELS
like 25% of Gen-Y fancy themselves artists with
all the associated smugness and high-handed
self-advertising about their humanitarianism."

What a cliche. Vlad doesn't know anything about Art as his "art school superior" comment reveals. First of all, the life of an artist is one of the true capitalistic high wire acts going. An artist often produces on speculation, with no guarantee whatsoever of recouping their initial investment of time and material. Any superiority obtained in art school - a ridiculous assertion, becoming competent in art is a battering experience for the ego and the self-esteem; it takes years, discipline, and fortitude to simply acquire rudimentary skill - is soon vanquished by the day to day reality of little demand and many competetiors.

I've been a self-employed artists for twenty-five years now. At this point in my career, I survive mainly by commision as opposed to speculation. Currently I am carving an absolutely mammoth piece for one of those smug Ivy League school leaders. So if you want to know anything about art, don't be listening to Vlad Krandz for goodness sake.

LIES OF THE TEA PARTY TALIBAN

"God told me to run" ... M­ittney

"God told me to run" ... Bac­hmann

"God told me to run" ... Pe­rry

Somebody is lying here ...

Not at all, Asoka. These are all puppets obeying their puppet master. The puppet master being their god. No inconsistency here, Asoka.

Thank you for the link.
==

You're welcome, Patrizia. Michael Ruppert knows and understands the system from within.

"I would go with "gladiatorial"." -Cash

Alrighty then, I shall. Now what would be a nice solid 2-word vision thar?
Ahhhh, "gladiatorial spectacle". There we go!
Further: "blood-spattered, gladiatorial spectacle".
Fun wit' phrases.

BTW... Nice git-slinging gripers! Techno-shred on, Go-jira!

Butthead: "Hey Beavis...I trust you...."

In God We Trust" was adopted as the official motto of the United States in 1956. It is also the motto of the U.S. state of Florida. The phrase has appeared on U.S. coins since 1864 and on paper currency since 1957.[1] Its Spanish equivalent, En Dios Confiamos, is the motto of the Central American nation of Nicaragua.[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_God_We_Trust

I remember reading somewhere that Samoza, the first dictator of the Samoza dynasty of Nicaragua was appointed dictator of Nicaragua because he spoke good colloquial English. Apparently, he was a used car salesman who gave the then US Ambassador to Nicaragua a "good deal" on a used car. True story....

In God We Trust" was adopted as the official motto of the United States in 1956. It is also the motto of the U.S. state of Florida. The phrase has appeared on U.S. coins since 1864 and on paper currency since 1957.[1] Its Spanish equivalent, En Dios Confiamos, is the motto of the Central American nation of Nicaragua.[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_God_We_Trust

The NPS loves to commission white elephant showpieces like that. This is the same agency that gave us a $500,000 outhouse, after all. These follies are basically marriages of pork barrel and politically correct warm fuzzies, so a good time is had by all influential parties.

Commercial PV and large-scale wind systems are politically popular in part because they're wasteful and give well-connected parties a chance to grandstand, make relatively easy money, or do both. Government subsidies distort the market enough to allow needlessly complex technologies and systems to become industry standards.

Eleuthero described many of the serious problems with large-scale wind and PV systems upthread. There are two problems that I would add with respect to large-scale wind. First, the turbine assemblies are too specialized and few in number to benefit from economies of scale, and too large to transport and install without specialized equipment and specially-trained staff. The financial case is a shoddy one when a similar amount of manpower and materiel could be used to operate Hoover Dam instead. Second, the gear transmission systems attached to commercial turbines are complex, contain huge numbers of fragile moving parts, and must be serviced by highly-paid and trained tower dogs. With slightly different training, the same staff could be used to maintain the BPA North-South Intertie.

Dmitry Orlov notes that we Americans regularly choose complex solutions over better, simpler ones. For wind power and solar power, he's spot on. Solar water heating systems can be constructed very simply and cheaply. If I remember correctly, 2-3kW-rated gearless home wind turbines can be bought for about $8k: no need to fiddle with gearboxes or dispatch tower dogs to hellholes like Arlington, WY, and payback times in windy areas are on the order of ten to fifteen years. A good craftsman could easily devise a wind turbine system that is cheaper and simpler yet.

These systems aren't as scalable as fossil fuel or nuclear power, especially wind, but combined with basic conservation measures they're no joke, either.

Of course, if we approach alternative energy development with the retarded arithmetic that we've been using, we're mighty fucked.

the first dictator of the Samoza dynasty of Nicaragua was appointed dictator of Nicaragua because he spoke good colloquial English

-----------

Pucker, there is a new book out: Nicaragua: Surviving The Legacy of U.S. Policy (Photography by Paul Dix Edited by Pam Fitzpatrick).

"Here we have the tracks left by the 'Freedom Fighters.' President Reagan sent them to Nicaragua to save Nicaragua from the danger of becoming Nicaragua: so Nicaragua would not be Nicaragua; so it would continue being just a fourth-class colony. The greatest power in the world against a very small, impoverished country: ten years of ruthless war not only left thousands dead and mutilated, it also left poisoned souls and murdered hopes. In a magical way, this book shows the visible as well as the invisible wounds. And the persistent, inexplicable joy of living: in spite of everything." -- Eduardo Galeano, writer; author of Open Veins of Latin America

I realize that I'm probably violating JHK's posting policy by making this commercial advertisement, but, if interested Clusterfuck-ups out there who are interested, I can get you a great deal on an SUV. It's used, but it's in great condition.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1165416/Chinas-hi-tech-death-van-criminals-executed-organs-sold-black-market.html

Let me try that again: I realize that I'm probably violating JHK's posting policy by making this commercial advertisement, but, if there are any interested Clusterfuck-ups out there, I can get you a great deal on an SUV. It's used, but it's in great condition.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1165416/Chinas-hi-tech-death-van-criminals-executed-organs-sold-black-market.html

Not at all, Asoka. These are all puppets obeying their puppet master.

Metuselah, the forces of darkness are losing the battle.

Stock markets' two wild weeks is because the puppet masters no longer can control them. As you know the markets have been one of the means whereby they have amassed unimaginable fortunes.

Their manipulations still have some impact on transactions as prices rebound in one country or another before plunging, then rising again, but it won't be long before their former stranglehold is removed totally and a new basis for banking and commerce can begin operating.

The exposure of Rupert Murdoch's media empire's influence in government circles and underhanded methods of obtaining information will lead to breaking the back of this kind of mass mind programming. Through lies, distortions and strategic omissions in mainstream media reporting, the puppet masters have been publishing or airing only the information they want you to know and think about—they, just as you, know the power of thoughts.

The puppet masters' long-time suppression of free energy developments will end within months and so will their use of HAARP to the detriment of humankind and the planet.

WE ARE NOT FUCKED!

2012 will bring a golden age of free energy, the end of wars, and the beginning of an era of peace among the peoples of Planet Earth.

{Wrong Truth.

CFN drew more than twice as many comments in the last 5 weeks as in the comparable period last summer.}

Ok, Q . . . you've quantified the count, but have you qualified the CONTENT?

It's all a bunch of racist bullshit. Pretty much every damn post, other than a few quality missives. You may as well run around in here and holler nigger nigger spic spic chink chink honkey honkey wetback!

Sorry, that's what I'm seeing. I've never seen a group of people on any of the Peak Oil and other related sites out there that spend so much time on this issue. It's repugnant. If this is what JHK stands for, then sorry . . . I'm not interested. I saw Prog take a shitload of heat earlier this week, and that is equally repugnant, IMO. For someone from the South who is so clearly NOT a racist to take that kind of bullshit, and others around here to keep on piping out their stewing brew of sickness, that makes me question my presence here. There are other sites with equally good information. Peace out, Q (will you call me out for the misspelling if I say phuck yew? :)~~

Prog . . . don't let the racists bother you. See you around, brother. Best Regards . . .

There are several new ideas for commercial scale energy storage of energy generated from renewable energy. One is flow battery technology (current battery technology tends to be too expensive to meet utility-scale needs, and overheating can be a concern, as well.)

By using an iron-chromium redox system those problems can be overcome. Electricity is generated when pumps move the electrolytes into separate sections of a reaction chamber. Electrodes collect that charge, and the electrolytes can then be recharged from an outside renewable power source.

Another way to achieve energy storage from renewable energy sources is the use of a utility-scale flywheel energy storage system. Flywheel energy storage has advantages of high efficiency and low cost.

In a flywheel system, energy is stored as rotational energy as a rotor, or flywheel, spins at a very high rate. The faster the wheel spins, the more energy is stored, and as energy is taken out, the wheel’s speed decreases.

WE ARE SO NOT FUCKED!

I don't know how the Mayans did it, but 2012 is looking to be a very good year. By Dec. 2012 you will not believe the quantity and quality of changes related to energy and peace.

CHANGE YOU CAN BELIEVE IN

With recent scientific breakthroughs in solar panels and rising public awareness, the solar industry is growing rapidly. According to the U.S. Energy Information Administration, renewable energy consumption from solar energy is growing rapidly at an average annual rate of 12 percent.