The Revolutionary Moment

     
     I overheard a conversation between two employees over at the Price Chopper supermarket last week. (The Price Chopper logo is a picture of a Mercury dime with an ax cleaving into Mercury's head; in other words, an ax murder.) The supermarket employees were both middle-aged women.
     First: "I'm going home to a cold house."
     Second: "Why don't you turn up the heat?"
     First: "I don't have no money for fuel."
     Meanwhile, 175 miles south in Manhattan somewhere, Lloyd Blankfein's personal shopper is trying to figure out whether to buy Lloyd's favorite niece a Fabergé egg themed Memories of Azov or a Jaguar XK convertible. 
     Maybe the catch here is that the anonymous supermarket workers are only freezing this Christmas season. If they were freezing and hungry, it might be a different story. But, working in a supermarket, a person might find a way to cadge a few tidbits here and there (whoops, we broke a bag of Cheetos on the loading dock) - the catch there being you could get fired for stealing the merchandise. O sorry nation!
     But don't fear! The president and congress are looking out for you, O nation of freezing supermarket employees (and flummoxed personal shoppers, and wily mega-bank CEOs)! They have fashioned a deal that we might call Stim-u-rama. Everybody gets a tax cut! Everybody! Not just Lloyd B but all you toiling and moiling shelf-stockers and check-out cashiers. Plus, you will get a reduction of several percentage points in your payroll deductions - a redoo in the dedoo! -  which must be good for at least one Justin Bieber action figure (if there are any left!) in these waning days of the Yuletide consumer frenzy.
     Meanwhile moreover, CBS 60-Minutes showed a segment Sunday night on the rip-roaring economic miracle of Brazil - "a little bit bigger than the USA geographically and loaded with natural resources" - as if to rub it in that we have become a sorry nation of losers to a bunch of no-account beach layabouts. As usual, the 60-Minutes reportage was full of lies and misrepresentations, for instance, that Brazil's offshore oil discoveries are so huge and so easy to extract that they will save industrial civilization.
      The sights and smells of Christmas usually put me in a mellow frame of mind. But this year there's an acid edge in the mulled wine, an off-taste in the plum pudding, a disconcerting odor of rot in the piped-in holiday potpourri.
     Obviously, the government tax deal along with the Federal Reserve's recent QE announcements represent a mighty effort to stuff some spendable lucre into this shuddering, doddering beast of  the American economy. The people running things don't know what else to do. We find ourselves in a decelerating system, hopelessly over-complex (and scheming, even, to add additional layers of complexity!), with money-making activity shifted from producing things of value into a runaway Wall Street machine dedicated to something-for-nothing rentier exploitation of interest rate differentials, arbitrages, short-sales, outright swindles, and other activities based on no creation of value whatsoever. While capital piles up in the salons of Central Park West and the cigar cellars of the Hamptons, social capital hemorrhages every day as masses of formerly-working Americans forego the acquisition of any useful skills, or forget old ones, or opt to lose themselves in the transports of methadrine, "reality" TV, and tattoo art. To put it perhaps a bit indelicately, our shit is falling apart.
     It's fascinating that in the background of all this the price of oil is fibrillating around $90-a-barrel - and nobody is paying any attention to that. We seem to have forgotten the lesson from back in 2008 that when oil gets above the $80 mark, things in this land of Happy Motoring and the Warehouse-on-wheels don't work so well. No wonder President Obama and congress are trying to stuff the country full of sugar plums just to get past the horror of a Christmas holiday when not a few working people will be freezing in their homes, if they have homes.
     And in not too many days ahead we'll get a peek at those Christmas bonuses landing in the laps of Lloyd Blankfein's minions at Goldman Sachs and the rest of the geniuses in the engine room of prosperity.
     When I was already a grown-up young newspaper reporter thirty-odd years ago, I never dreamed I'd see a revolutionary moment here in the USA - even with old Nixie pulling one fast one after another, before heading off to that helicopter for his last wave to the people who elected him. Now, I'm not so sure.
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My new novella, A Christmas Orphan, is available for purchase through Northshire Bookstore.  

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716 Comments

Jimbo! You make me laugh to keep from crying. If you want to protect yourself and do your own Quantitative Easing at home, there are some tips at http://www.thenothingstore.com

As JHK points out, our nation is on the verge of falling apart, be it socially, economically or politically. When we go, unfortunately, we're going to take most of the world with us and be plunged into a new Dark Age that will likely take centuries to recover from.

The Leibowitz Society is dedicated to preserving civilization's essential knowledge so that people can learn from our mistakes and rebuild once the dust settles and the Long Emergency has ended. We need people who love learning and knowledge and know that our civilization is on the way out. Visit us at http://leibowitzsocity.blogspot.com.

Have Tweeted and Shared -- so long as we've got the Internets to do it!

If there was going to be a revolution, Lloyd Blankfein would have been in the ground by now. What do you think the Wall Streeters use in place of the word pussies when they talk about us?

You're right Jim, heating oil (& gas) may well be the first domino to fall. Certainly out here where we're living on a shoestring in the woods, my friends and I are bundled up in multi layers of fleece and rationing our firewood for the latter part of the day when we're tired of having cold fingers. I'm prepared to have heat become my biggest monthly expense, so I've been making room for that for years by seeing how well I can live on less and less. You can share food with neighbors, but when they're freezing it's a big decision to invite them to share your warmer space. Tensions will definitely mount. I was just watching a video interview with U.S. Military guys in charge of climate change mitigation, not the kind of mitigation that slows the change, but the kind that keeps freezing people from breaking into warm monster homes. There's no denial in that department.

Lynn
http://www.10in10diet.com/
For a small footprint and a small grocery bill

First! Back in college we called it "60 biased minutes", never watched it again. As a nation, how we tolerate this years round of X-mas bonus's should be telling.

A revolutionary moment? Perhaps. A political revolution? Doubtful.

Too many people either have too much to lose or are acting as though they do because it hasn’t occurred to them that they’re losers. As a consequence America shall continue to be ruled by that shrinking minority that owns it; at least for a little longer anyway.

For the last two decades, those who can; have invested in China and India to realize the best returns. Legions of economic talking heads, when interviewed, smugly proclaim that China and India are where much of the world’s future economic growth is to occur. But is that really the way it’s going to be?

http://margewargis.wordpress.com/

Ahh... Based on "A Canticle for Leibowitz!" A very good read. I read it in 1970. Assigned by a hip history prof.

Vlad, about your post Dec 12, 4:10 pm

Bravo man. I've ranted and raved on this issue but you said it more clearly and more forcefully than I ever could. I disagree with a lot of what you say but on this issue you hit the nail on the head.

Especially this:

The Market? Smith and his followers have always underestimated Businessmen. They talk to each other - they are people who can plan and cooperate. They can overcome the impersonal force, the invisible hand. - Vlad

Well said.

You betcha they can overcome that invisible hand. Go work at the Fed or the SEC. They could use some clear headed guidance. Just stay away from the white supremacy stuff.

One thing though about the invisible hand and where, you could argue, it fell apart by itself. Following the dictates of this invisible hand, the executive or managerial class offshored huge chunks of productive industry to slave wage countries. Each CEO did what he figured he had to do to keep his company competitive with others in his industry.

The problem is that when they all offshored they succeeded in laying off the consumers they all intended to sell to ie the North American middle or working class. While this strategy works in the short run, earning CEOs mind blowing compensation, it's really hard to see how it works in the long run. How do these companies prosper if their intended market becomes progressively more and more impoverished.

Oh wait, I forgot, CEOs don't give a shit about the long run. They make enough in one year to become as rich as Croesus.

This is what I would call market failure. A small, incestuous group, each scratching the back of the other, all saying the same thing, that you have to pay colossal piles of loot to CEOs (ie themselves) to attract the "best and the brightest" thus perpetuating one of the foulest, most stinking lies to come out of that den of scum and villainy (to quote Obewan Kenobi): Wall Street.

Well, as you might say Vlad, they talk to each other, they overcome the invisible hand.

time to ensure two things
1-the body is working properly - get rid of the chemicals and poisons in the food you are eating
2-the mind is calm and clear - to react and adapt to the coming changes.
Only then will we be ready to deal with what is to come. Take care of yourself and all the rest will sort itself out one way or another.
http://wanderingsagewisdom.blogspot.com

2011 economic cycle : recovery in progress (according to statistics), speculators drive oil price higher, economy stalls, oil price falls, economic recovery in progress (according to statistics, speculators drive oil price higher, economy stalls, oil prices fall,........on and on. Did I mention Wall St. types make tons of money at each step?

Did anyone watch Bernie Sanders speech? I loved his rant on China. The stats about more manufacturing jobs in the US before the war then now is obscene. And we think that China's economy will continue to steam ahead, how, are they all going to be consuming everything they themselves make? Apparently Apple stores in China have a marketing campaign, that says "Designed by Apple in California, Made for China"!!!

Sounds like the same losers who think they are Republican, i.e., rich.

Good lord, I just finished The Long Emergency and would rather it happen than be dragged on and on! Do we stock up and buy guns & ammo?
What a crappy world I am giving to my 9 year old son, at least he knows how to garden, ride a bike and shoot a bow and arrow!

Thanks a lot Jim for taking the last small piece of hope I had! I enjoyed giving it up to you.

The assumption that those controlling the economy "don't understand" or "don't know what they're doing" or that they "have run out of ideas" is absurd. The banksters created this particular financial crisis (along with the all of the other created financial crises throughout the history of the United States). There will be no revolution or rioting or fighting in the streets here in the US. Have you not seen what happens to protesters who are unlucky enough to be beaten/arrested/subdued by our military police? Anyone who would risk the consequences of fomenting unrest or participating in same is a fool or woefully uninformed as to their likely fate. Nothing is going to happen "all of a sudden" such as a societal collapse. Little by little, bit by bit is how the banksters move forward. Today is never that much different or worse than yesterday, this week is about the same as last week. The changes made are subtle but never-ending. Those in control never take their eyes off the prize, their agenda never sleeps. Sure prepare all you want for possible change or the long emergency that never makes an entrance. Observe the elite who recently engineered the death of the Gulf of Mexico and the slow death of the population of the Gulf Coast. If there is a "Long Emergency" it will be because it has been set up to happen that way by plan. Not because multi-billion dollar corporations "didn't pay attention" to peak oil. No one can prove "peak oil" either way in reality. You can believe in your god, or peak oil, or obamageddon or anything you like. It is what you know that counts.

Dig 4'-5' down and fill it with sand and pex tubing. Insulate.

Pour your concrete floor with pex tubing (a radiant floor). Insulate your building well.

Put your solar thermal collectors facing South either flat plates or evacuated tubes. Or in my case.. both.

During the summer months when you have excellent solar radiation heat your underground sandbox up to ~ 150° or so. That mass will be the equivalent of millions of BTUs.

In the winter, continue to use your collectors to heat the floor but also take from your stored energy harvest.

Now tell me this won't work.

And then come kill me and kick me out when TSHTF and your cold.

Cheers,

Solar Guy

Good analysis.

I would add somewhere in there: the Fed prints wads of money.

Does Wall Street "make" tons of money at each step? I would say Wall Street "steals" tons of money at each step. Legally of course.

The working poor and former middle-class blamed Obama in 2010, just as they did Bush in 2008. When they see that America's plutocrats are the real villains...look out and hire some private security.

By the way, JHK in Price Chopper is just too funny a vision. Ginsberg's "A Supermarket in California" sprang to mind (I'm a lit geek) and I had my ROFLMAO moment. Here goes:

"In my hungry fatigue, and shopping for images, I went into the neon fruit supermarket, dreaming of your enumerations! What peaches and what penumbras! Whole families shopping at night! Aisles full of husbands! Wives in theavocados, babies in the tomatoes!"

Finally NPR over the weekend actually had a story
about the rising gasoline prices which they just noticed are almost above $3 per gallon.
Not a mention of peak oil in the whole story,
primarily an interview with some "oil expert" who
gave the usual hand-waving explanations for the
gas price rise. He also discounted JPMorgan, Goldman-Sachs and other commodity investors
projections that oil will hit $100 per barrel.
By what means that would happen except further
demand collapse this "expert" did not mention.
The only interesting salient fact he did proffer is
that US oil demand in terms of dollars (not oil
quantities) has been slowly shrinking.
This story was then followed by a atory about the
"Happy Motoring" savior of electric cars and the
problems with lithium for all those batteries.
No mention of course that the new wonderful and
fantastically expensive electric personal cars take as much energy as a house!
Further delusions were Obama / Wimpocrat plans
for 1 million electric cars by 2015 as if that
will solve anything.
Again, where does the US get the energy for 1 million more houses worth of electricity consumption.
The Corporate Media, including NPR continue to
be blissfully ignorant of peak oil it seems...

You are so right. The U.S. military has unrest and population migration high on its list. Watch this interview regarding its readiness for defending the nation (read: the owners) in times of 'instability' caused by climate change.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQaSJje87zU&feature=player_embedded

"a disconcerting odor of rot in the piped-in holiday potpourri"

That's funny - 'pouuri' means 'rotten'.

The article in the NY Times yesterday about the super secret masters of the derivative markets should have been enough to have the people storming the Bastille this morning.

But of course it wasn't.
The poor woman in Price Chopper who is freezing ought to have read about the town in Sweden that is recycling garbage and burning wood pellets to heat the homes and to run the buses.

Meanwhile over in The Land of The Free, the wage slaves freeze and bitch about Obama.

Aimlow Joe was here.
http:/www.aimlow.com

That's 'pourri'. (Dang - why no Preview or Edit?)

JHK sez:
"It's fascinating that in the background of all this the price of oil is fibrillating around $90-a-barrel - and nobody is paying any attention to that. We seem to have forgotten the lesson from back in 2008 that when oil gets above the $80 mark, things in this land of Happy Motoring and the Warehouse-on-wheels don't work so well. No wonder President Obama and congress are trying to stuff the country full of sugar plums just to get past the horror of a Christmas holiday when not a few working people will be freezing in their homes, if they have homes."

I'm also astonished to find that the "too-horrifying-to-voice" prices of energy and resources are being neglected(?) in the press.
Them sugar-plums ain't gonna get it when the "folks" get cold and hungry (in large enough numbers to be dangerous, natch').

We're truly becoming the mushroom-people...

It's harder to imagine a less politically-engaged citizenry than America's. What public squares would they take over? What armories would they seize? What crucial radio and TV stations would they capture? Let's face it: the Kunstler nightmare of a country of overfed dolts living on Cheetohs and Bud Lite is not going to revolt anywhere, anytime.

What will happen, I suspect, is a collapse that's already started, that is too powerful in itself to guide or mitigate. It's analogous to the climate-change crisis, whose looming specter we barely acknowledge in our petty political squabbles. What we don't know is exactly when, where and how. Maybe in five years. Maybe in 20 or 30. But it's coming.

I won't mourn the loss of this civilization if I live long enough to see its demise. We're a nasty species intent on doing as much harm to the planet before the inevitable wipe-out phase. Nightmares can be interesting, of course, which is one reason we gather here.

Ps.
Toiling and moiling! perfect

I have to agree with what James Crow wrote. I keep telling people that we're in the Second Depression. We're reliving eighty years ago. Try to imagine what it was like on December 13, 1930. I'm sure that people were saying that "things are going to get better". The government was fumbling around trying to do something to get the economy back on track. The "rich" were merrily living life as before because, even though they may have lost money on paper, they still had enough that it didn't affect their lifestyle. The middle class were affected more, but day in and day out, it was a slow process downhill.

The economy isn't going to fall off a cliff overnight. There will be ups and downs and people will still get up in the morning, do whatever they've been doing during the day, and going to bed at night...that is except for the people working the night shift!

The only difference that I see between 1930 and 2010 is that I can't foresee a 1939, 1940, or 1941 coming along to pull us out of the economic doldrums.

Solar Guy,

Pretty much right on re new construction, sadly it's been very easy and extremely cost effective to build nearly zero energy buildings for decades. Lots of not very good reasons why that hasn't happened but that's another longer conversation. The real problem now is retrofitting so much poorly designed existing housing stock, not so easy to do that.


> The only difference that I see between 1930 and 2010 is that I can't foresee a 1939, 1940, or 1941 coming along to pull us out of the economic doldrums.

You never know... WW3 has a certain ring to it... or are we up to 4 or 5 now?

There will never be a revolution in the US! Can anyone imagine the woman in the story joining a cell of revolutionaries and manning the barricades? She is isolated (as we all are) -- even cut off from political representation. Her only choice is to maintain an address so she can hope to remain employed. Otherwise the only manning she'll do is a sleeping bag under an overpass. Just using some of the words I've included in this comment can cause arrest and imprisonment here in our land of the free. Patriot Act anyone?

One of the great things about the United States of America (besides Obama) is that we have freedom of movement.

You can choose to live in the north, where the temperatures are below freezing and you have to go home to a cold house, or you can choose to move. We have that freedom.

You could decide, for example, to live in the southwest, someplace like southern New Mexico, one of the poorest and cheapest places to live in the United States, and it is 66 degrees and sunny there today.

With a small (700 sq. ft.) simple adobe house and 330 days of sun a year, much of your heat can come from the flywheel effect of adobe construction combined with passive solar design.

http://www.adobebuilder.com/passive-solar-home-book.html

Well, well, all this doom and gloom! Now I have something really inspiring to report! Watching a NatGeo show last night, a commercial from Chrysler comes on. Actually, an advert for their new Jeep model. The new Jeep "Black Ops" model! Damn! For all you guys out there who are too old to go to Iraq or Afghanistan and waste some ragheads, now you can get yourself some kickass wheels and imagine you're in black ops! WTF! I just don't know where to begin. What are they thinking? Are we a nation of morons?

I did feel incited to riot by this week's post, no kidding. I have always tried to anger the government with my blog about how to make methamphetamine, and that reminds me: it is not spelled Methadrine, it is spelled Methedrine. I would like it spelled correctly so I can read the word and experience the triggering effect from properly matching the imprinted key in my brain.

Overall, my criticism of the post is that it was too short.

Does revolution always involve riots? Isn't reading blogs and commenting counter-revolutionary? Are we really too sophisticated to put our lives on the line, we are really tramps and hoboes-in-waiting? We think sticking it to the man is for fools?

Well, that's a problem. They got a whole other world in New York (that's where they call it Methedrine. Sadly, it's a trade name). They can't think of the world outside.

They got a new song:

Cocktail party on the street
Bedbugs uptown
Shmack de shmack
I can't give it away on Seventh Avenue
This town
has been wearin' tatters.
-Rolling Stones

Can Kunstler organize anybody? What's wrong with this picture? Of course he thinks New York is pulling the strings. He lives around there!

The next time you do a book tour, how about stopping in San Diego? I want to talk to you.

No, I just want to stand there, tongue-tied. That's what happened with Ozzie.

"Yes? Something to say? No? That's what I thought. That's exactly what I thought."

Good stuff, JHK; thank you for our weekly serving of gloom and doom. And you are in large part correct - except I'd argue about that revolution thing.

I don't see that happening - and not so much because of the police forces with their paramilitary trappings that would line up against it.

We are so hopelessly brainwashed as a population - and seemingly in 300,000,000 different directions.

Even on this discussion thread - united under the umbrella of peak oil - we can't agree on a single necessary step.

Next week add some more cold cashiers to the mix.

One would look at the 400 TIMES and growing income difference between her income and that of *her* CEO - and say, "Wow, I'm glad free market capitalism gives success to those who earn it!
And I'm really glad my total taxes are higher than his so he can enjoy his wealth."

One would say, "It's Obermmurs fault - those "death panels" that he had passed are soo expensive."

Another would say, "We need more immigrants - I could let one of them have my job so I could draw unemployment in my cold apartment."

But none of them would vote.
And none of them will revolt.

Now, where is the key to the paradigm shifter?

Whoops. It's spelled OZZY. I have the book.

There is a very simple calculus to our situation. A nation rewards those whom it values. Clearly, we do not value producers of things since we don't pay them very well. Alternatively, we lavish largess upon those who move money around and play increasingly complex and inscrutable financial games. The reason this has been allowed to happen is that the populace has developed a hankering for unearned riches, whether they be through gambling or investment (which nowadays is just another form of gambling). As a result, there has been an implicit quid pro quo: I won't say anything about your scam if you don't say anything about mine. Perhaps not that criminal. Perhaps more like I won't say anything about your gig being unsustainable if you don't point out that mine is unsustainable. Of course, the problem is that even if the two parties can agree on the quid pro quo, that doesn't make the circumstances sustainable. Which is where we find ourselves today. Put more bluntly, we've bullshitted ourselves into perdition. I don't know what the solution to this is. But whatever, I'm pretty sure it involves some serious pain.

There will be no revolution. Any attempt at organizing will be handled by the Media as kooks, terrorists, or commies, and handled by the State like the Branch Dravidians.

The desperately (20-30%) poor will be lined up in Disney-like bread lines, and the remaining terrified former middle-class will be thankful to keep shelter and food.

There may have been a chance 40 years ago to form some sort of opposition, but with the reading and comprehension level now in this country, there is no chance of basic understanding of the problem.

GE, BofA, Goldman Sachs, Federal Reserve, POTUS, Congress, and MIC are all cooperating with each other. Tension between these forces collapsed and with it the balance of powers. You're living in a Fascist State. Accept it, learn from it, and a way to claw out will emerge.

The issue with population migrating to the Southwest USA is water - there's not enough of it. Lake Mead water level keeps dropping along with the levels of many other reservoirs in the area. The future does not look promising for folks already living in the Southwest with regards to water supply especially in the face of climate change.

Adobe houses work good to mitigate internal temperature, however, from what I saw the trailer house is the preferred dwelling and these require a lot of air conditioning to remain tolerable during the long hot summers.

Cabra you are so right. Jobless, homeless people may temporarily migrate south but ultimately water will be the main problem.

"Are we a nation of morons?"

Have I not been seeing ads on TV by banks for "secured credit cards"? You pay for a credit card and they charge you to use it? I have a debit card from my credit union and they don't charge me a thing! If you have the cash to prepay a credit card, why not use the cash? Do people really addicted to the warm, fuzzy feeling of using a credit card???

The human race is at the crossroads of existence. The fork in the road for most is bewildering. The end of this year will bring sorrow and despair as the system falters, and the foundations that once held up society will dissolve like quicksand under your feet.

James has put it in very real terms, we are at a revolutionary moment, but I would go further than that, and say to you all we are at a tipping point, a moment in time where we must look inside ourselves and ask if this is what we want for the future, or stand up for the one thing that we were born with, and what the source of all creation wants for us, and that is freedom.

This cycle for humanity is ending. Time is literally speeding up to the point where the air is solidifying into a feeling of dense despair. You can feel it around you as the economic implosion draws near, and the Earth changes bring about the end of society as we know it. The almighty has endured long enough what we have done to this planet, and the time for a renewal as what happened 6,000 years ago when the great flood cleansed this planet is at hand.

The time for this systems collapse is iminent, closer than anyone can imagine. The sovereign debt of the world is too heavy, and it will sink this ship.The governmnet is preparing you mentally by its constant bombardment of terror in the world, and by physically destroying the planet as with the BP gulf disaster, and the killing of our oceans and wildlife. They are systematically ruining our food supply and water resources. The ones who are left will be herded into FEMA camps and left to either die, or be used as forced labor.

If you lay a history timeline from the Weimar Republic and Hitler's rise to power it will overlap exactly to what is currently happening from the last 10 years or so to present. The question to you all, is do you want to live under suppression, and where there will be very little food and water to drink, and hyperinflation destroys your society, or do you want to stand up for your rights and secure your freedom and the spirituality?

Humanity is ready for a transformation from this reality into a new one, which will leave behind the dark entities of this planet, and bring in a new higher level of existence where money, politics, greed, and corruption will no longer exist.The system of usury will no longer be needed, as we enter a time of peaceful exitence, and sharing the knowledge of the universe.

It all starts inwardly. the love that the human heart puts out drives the universe. It will only take a small number to consciously change this reality to the one I speak of. Let us band together and rid ourselves of the shackles that hold the human race from our true destiny, and that is to travel the cosmos and spread the spirituality of the human heart,LOVE!

The way to endure the coming appocolypse, is to drive a spike right thru the heart of what controls the system. If you topple them where it hurts the most, then they will fail. Buy as much silver as you can, Jp Morgan will topple, and pull your money out of the major banks, and don't pay your Federal taxes.The system is going to topple anyways, so it really doesn't matter! Cash in all stocks and let Wall Street crash, and let the economic gangsters rot in all their worthless derivatives, $600 trillion worth!

Then prepare for the coming Earth changes and economic collapse by forming small communities, and loading up on food and water reserves. Dark times are nearing, and then we can consciously bring about a new reality soon, where all this doesn't exist any more.

Asoka said:
"You can choose to live in the north, where the temperatures are below freezing and you have to go home to a cold house, or you can choose to move. We have that freedom.

"You could decide, for example, to live in the southwest, someplace like southern New Mexico, one of the poorest and cheapest places to live in the United States, and it is 66 degrees and sunny there today."

Asoka, I realize the New Mexico is on the eastern side of the continental divide--but all your neighboring southwestern states are in the Colorado River Basin and there's not enough water even now, Lake Mead is drying up, water allocations are going to be cut for Arizona, Nevada, Colorado and eventually California. It's crazy to think people could move there and add to the demand on shrinking water resources.

And, oops, did we forget Peak Oil--how are people going to to get around in those vast southwestern spaces when the gas isn't available? They won't have water for their backyard gardens and they won't have gas. But at least they won't freeze.

This gentleman wrote
Now, where is the key to the paradigm shifter?

It sounds like things on a keyboard.

But, the fact is that the paradigm is the same one under the previous theocracy, in which sinning and soul-saving was shifted to non-responsiblity by virtue of insanity, with the mind being the new name for the soul. The medical establishment now locks people up without a trial. In this way constitutional guarantees "preventing" abuse of power can be circumvented.

The key is how one seemingly unrelated piece of the puzzle can affect the whole puzzle. Our system is fundamentally flawed and cannot survive, right? From lies we are told which deny reality?

The actual key I wish to put forth is that freedom means doing the right thing. It does not mean being allowed to do it. It means doing something without being told you can do it. Don't wait for the government to pass the right laws. It cannot. That would involve them in your freedom, and then it's not yours, it's theirs.

I would like someone to take over on the hard parts of life. Food is funny. I don't think it's food. I think with one little wound you bleed to death if they won't take you at the hospital. And, it is a tragic and preventable death. But, it helps to ease their conscience if they can think of you as poor and worthless.

I overuse the word they. That doesn't excuse or justify that the logic is wrong and I must be paranoid. Paranoia is a young person's disease. I was paranoid forty years ago. What am I now? Psychic.

All of you are psychic.

Here's what is in this book I am reading, where the subject is, the title is, Fatal Freedom:

"One of the most troubling issues we face today is who should control when and how we die.
...
This thoughtful analysis of these questions consistently holds forth patient autonomy as paramount; therefore, he argues, patients should not be prevented from exercising their free will, nor should physicians be permitted to enter the process by prescribing or providing the means for voluntary death."
-Szasz (1999)

Oh, yeah. Bernie Madoff begat Mark Madoff, who killed himself around Thursday, but the impression we are left with, that the clinical depression took over and he had no free will whenever he tightened that dog collar around his neck, is wrong.

No event can happen but that we don't get the skewed version of it.

Poor JHK, always missing the real issues of the day:
(1) DADT
(2) Overturning Roe vs Wade
(3) Protecting health care for profit
(4) Keeping Krist in Kristmas and everywhere else.
(5) Safeguarding the obscenely low tax rates of the super wealthy
XO
WWW

The Automatic Earth carried another interesting exposition this past week by the Nominal Man discussing how extend and pretend will carty normality in the US past the breaking point of other nations when we will once again be the beacon on the hill for the broken countries around the world. It struck a deeper chord in me than the perpetual promise of failure and revolution which is preached by those of us with our eyes open.
We seem to be very good at reading the stats and understanding the implications of Peak Oil, Climate Change and Christmas Bank Bonuses...the trouble is we wanna be revolutionaries have a hard time thinking that when the masses are exposed to our brilliant analysis, at last, they will simply turn their back on us and announce instead: "See? President Palin was right all along! Vote Palin a third term!"
Decent working Germans lost their moral compasses in 1933 in the face of desperation and hunger but didn't regain them until 1945 when they were crushed. There was no enlightenment or moment of revolution. Sure they got pissed off when food ran out and the Allies bombed their towns, but trhere were many Germans who survived World War Two who went to their graves believing in Goebbel's propaganda.
If there is a revolution watch out because the prophets of doom always go first.

I read recently that Wall Street has allocated $114 billion this year for bonuses. The economy must be doing very well to support such a level of bonuses (which is remuneration beyond standard pay). So the question those not doing so well should be asking is "How do we get in on some of that action?" That's what smart people do, rather than complaining. Get in on the action!

I couldn't live in New Mexico. I've driven across it number of times and most recently flew into Albuquerque then drove up to Durango on two-lane roads. I've never seen so many beer bottles and bits of trash thrown along the highways. The Indian reservations are shabby hell-holes dotted with lots of places to buy alcohol. I was told never to cross a reservation in a car at night because of the risk of drunk drivers.

An idealistic friend of mine went to teach school on a reservation in NM. She held no ill-will toward native-americans prior to her arrival, but after two years, she was disgusted and came back to California.

San Jose is a good place to live climate-wise. Doesn't get too hot in the summer. You might get a bit cold in the winter--but nothing you couldn't manage with the help of extra sweaters, blankets, and a snuggly dog.

SJmom

This just in from Bloomberg. Headline: "Wall Street Sees Record Revenue in Recovery From Bailout". Looks like things are back on track, people!

I thought the best part of 60 minutes was the segment on John Boehner (apparently pronounced 'bay-ner', although I can't resist calling him 'boner'. Maybe I'll just nickname him 'woody' and be done with it. But I digress...)

He broke into big slobbering crocodile tears at the mere mention of anything remotely resembling the so-called "American Dream", including his own life story.

One might be tempted to write it off as showboating, perhaps with a pinch of genuine patriotic fervor, but the real tell came when he looked at his shoes and said in a low voice that he couldn't go anywhere near schools full of children anymore.

That's when it hit me: Those are not tears of joy glistening on his trembling chin. He knows full well just how screwed we really are, and it terrifies him!

He can't go near schoolchildren or even talk about his own family without shamelessly puckering up because it breaks his plastic little heart knowing that they have NO FUTURE. What a guy!

Cheers,
Jerry

Nice wrap-up of the latest in cornucopian happy-talk from National Petroleum Radio! ;o)

I guess what we don't know CAN hurt us after all, eh? Let the mushroom-ery (tm MM) of the world's most exceptional peeps ever continue [ad infinitum, 'til it don't]...

When a given number of formerly self labeled middle and upper middle class people (that number is the % of the cold/semi-starving/hopeless, a tripping point number and the estimates are all over the page) have lost their jobs, maxed out their credit cards, have trouble paying their dramatically increasing property taxes on underwater dwellings they can't heat, and lost HOPE for themselves, and more importantly, their children, then that's it. The Shit really will come apart THEN. That's when the best scenarios for prediction are Bosnia, Sarajevo, and Zimbawbwe, i.e. road warrior.

Regardless of what we all say to ourselves the poor and working classes really don't figure into the equation; they are too disoriented from living dollar to dollar even during the past boom to be able to organize themselves, and they have been far too brainwashed that either Sarah Palin, Jesus, or Glen Beck will save them. Its the middle classes that are dangerous to the status quo of the power elite, unless they are pacified by the illusion of prosperity and, cynically, self proclaimed "elite" status; that's been true in virtually every revolutionary period in history. Eventually, though, the elite (the real elite, not what the upper middle classes think they are) will, to continue their present status, have to devour the assets of the levels above the poor and working classes and the levels just below them.
Here it comes.
May you live in interesting times.
Wardoc, locked and loaded.

The problem is that when they all offshored they succeeded in laying off the consumers they all intended to sell to ie the North American middle or working class. While this strategy works in the short run, earning CEOs mind blowing compensation, it's really hard to see how it works in the long run. How do these companies prosper if their intended market becomes progressively more and more impoverished.

Oh wait, I forgot, CEOs don't give a shit about the long run. They make enough in one year to become as rich as Croesus.

This is what I would call market failure. A small, incestuous group, each scratching the back of the other, all saying the same thing, that you have to pay colossal piles of loot to CEOs (ie themselves) to attract the "best and the brightest"

**************************************************************

Yes, I think you have hit the nail right on the head. The rich are so distant from the rest of us, they have lost touch with reality and eventually will not have anyone to buy their junk products. And the CEOs are so busy killing the environment and polluting the water to make ever more money, there is a risk of killing off millions. Maybe that's their plan -- to starve, sicken and cause the rest of us such great thirst that we will be too weak to fight back. Of course, as long as the great populous masses continues to watch FOX News, they won't figure out how bad it is or whose really to blame.
TV is the great opiate of the masses. And since the states are so busy laying off teachers, no one need learn to read or think for themselves. Just turn on the boob tube, get riled up and be told what to think. Simple, easy, dangerous.

Allow me add to the discussion. I'm about to be homeless, my gas heat is off, water soon to be cut, electric will go down on 12/28, and my phone is off, so is my internet. The internet provider sent out a tech to retrieve the modem who made a chiding remark that 'you can't even pay $40 to have the service?' He had a Spanish accent. And my landlord of 10 years sent me an eviction notice. I don't have a job, can't find one, one reason is I'm 60. Unemployment benefits ran out three months ago. And as a courtesy, I called up all the utility companies and told them the situation. They all said basically, 'well your service will be shut off unless you can pay.' And it was clear cut---everything is monetized, and you're talking to a 'service account specialist' who is at a computer screen of your account---she doesn't know you, you don't know her. You're an account number in a database. Same with the banks, and same every service you buy using a courtesy card, like food.

So, back to my story. I was told by 'everyone' to call our county social services. Gas heat not covered, electric not covered, phone not covered, water not covered, rent, maybe but I have to 'call them,' and word is that the amounts they help with are very low---not realistic. I don't have a phone and I don't have a family, I'm over 60 which rules me out it looks like.

Churches? Overwhelmed with the thousdands asking for help.

Friends? Tapped out or unemployed or about to be. One was put on part time because his employer didn't want to pay unemploymnet taxes, and then he was laid off, losing his house in the process.

so you have all these unemployed and destitute people using coffee houses for warmth, and taking showers at friend's houses. And in the midst of this, Congressman Alan Grayson sends out an email asking 'for ideas' for the new Congress to work on in the Spring. IDEAS? How about keeping people from freezing and starvation?

My opinion is, Congress and banks have declared total war on working Americans---the middle class included. I hate to be so blunt, but remember seeing old Black men walking the streets on a cold day? Welcome to it America, at least all but the elite.

How much indignity will Americans put up with? They are too busy shivering and starving to organize to react---this is by design my fellow Americans. Those Black men in big coats spend all their time staying warm, trying to deal with social services who say 'use our web site' for services. And now, working Americans, the middle class too, will see this way of life, and they will accept it, just like the supermarket workers. Suffering in silence.

Meantime, the 25 year old graduates from MBA schools---our KIDS---are turning the screws, under direction of their banking bosses, and being very well paid to do so.

Yes, the working American, the middle class American is screwed, but they don't have the power, and are so busy looking for work and food, they have nothing left. And this my friends, is the truth of the matter.

We're seeing an unprecedented war conducted by Congress and the banks against Americans.

Read the Grapes of Wrath, or watch some of Ed Murrow's broadcasts from the field during the depession---we're headed there, again, and for many, we're there now.

Think of Americans with no heat, electricity, water, is a total outrage. Who in Congress is taking up this cry? Is the president? No, cold and aloof, our president of the people is disapearing the very ones who gave him their votes. How crass, how cynical this man is.

As for job hunting, no more going down the road to ask for a job, unless you want to displace those old Black men who mounted your last set of Michelins. Instead it's 'visit our web site' where they get all your personal data, while having far too many applicants to offer you even an interview. And so over time, you fall down the wall, and become less and less qualified for anything but minimal jobs---and you will still have a cold house!

We're in such terrible trouble. I saw it when it was relatively good, so I have experienced the difference in my work life, from 'all is peachy' to eviction. I feel very emotional about where we are headed, and angry. But I spend my time job hunting on web sites. Today it took three hours to apply for two jobs, because I had to 'set up an acount,' then 'fill out a profile--that was like typing my entire resume into their web pages (no more just sending a resume---the IT professonals in HR have seen to that), and then writing a cover letter, then attaching my actual resume, and keying SEND. No more just going down to ask for a job---a 50's thing.

personally, I think we're going to see more and more theft and suicide, but from the point of view of banks and employers---if you can't get a job, then you need to 'de-rez' from the game, and that is what we are about see. But the media won't cover it, maybe alternative media will.

I know what i will do if it gets too tough, and I will save myself a lot of hell, which I see on the horizon. Imagine, you go home to find the water's off, or its dark, and without income, you can't do a damned thing about it. Just imagine this country descending like that, abusing its people, while the elites have the finest steak, liquor and, sex. What an outrage. What an outrage.

The scions of American business are the same people they were 5 years ago, before the wheels started to wobble -- but they haven't changed at all, and won't. If they have learned anything, it's that out-sourcing our manufacturing capabilities was a good idea then and it's a better idea now. All they know and care about is keeping costs low and revenue high. That is ALL they care about. That's what they are taught in the B-schools and they take it to heart. Unlike Jeff Goldblum in "Annie Hall," they haven't forgotten that mantra....

Worse yet, they have discovered (much to their delight!) that even their depleted and depressed employees, now burdened with all the work their "downsized" co-workers used to shoulder, are being more productive!

"Hey, we laid off all these bums and we're still in business! We're NEVER going to hire them back! Woo hoo!"

And while you see moments of unrest in Europe and at least a soupçon of street protesting, it seems that, as long a young people have the latest "smart phone" in the U.S., they'll always be happy -- that is until the c-spine permanently fuses into a downward slant....

Pilt

Up here in the gray frozen Northwest exists a chain of groceries that used to be known as Price Chopper and had bulk goods and budget minded stuff in line with the main demographic of chronically unemployed lumber workers. About 5 years ago they changed their name to Market Of Choice and rebranded themselves as a "green" force by using hemp and bamboo panels here and there, well advertised solar power system, and a color scheme that says "we care about the earth". What's no surprise is that they changed their product lineup to mostly 4000 mile berries, potato chips from Virginia, and super boutique goods of interest to the nuveau-psuedo rich buoyed by easy credit. Basically the equivalent strategy to the mining practice known as "high grading". Just substitute 'ore deposit' with 'suburbanites who think they are wealthy' and you get the idea.
Still I go there, because it is one stop shopping which can save time/gas as there are few alternatives around- and I experience a kind of nostalgia for the present where I look at the loaded shelves and well fed people and think that is really is a phenomena in the grand scale of the human race.

JHK, thanks for the insight into the ramblings of our political leaders. In my blue collar town those of us with jobs work 2 fulltime jobs that is, others who work part time jobs may have 3, limited or no health care benefits. Society is falling apart, but like the other posters above me have said, they worry about protesting at Planned Parenthood, demon possession in books, movies,e.g. Harry Potter,get government off our backs. They do not want to hear aabout peak oil, peak water,soil,etc,the war on Christmas. Oh my lord Zeus, I saw its a wonderful life the other day, where oh where is Mr. George Bailey to fight our Potters that rule our banking world. BUT no worries,everything is good, or the other folks like me will remember,"What me worry".

Having a rental property upstate NY (close to one of those creepy Price Choppers), I know all too well how to spend 5-6K on heat. My tenants expect to be able to wear tee shirts all the time rather than a pull over. I don't think this population of spoiled brats can think about revolution. The average American expects the food pellets delivered as they always have - when they ring the right bell. The ruling classes are good with this. They have merged the parties into one single ball as the Demopublicans. And this one party, does not have the middle class in mind nor the poor at heart.

http://schwerpunkter.wordpress.com/

Sprezza, I beg to differ. 'Pourri' means 'stirred'. You're confusing it with 'putri' which indeed means 'rotten'.

When will Americans get desperate enought to demand the obvious: kick out the illegals and unemployment is solved in one stroke. But, But, what about the Mexicans and Mexico? Worrying about other countries is a luxury of the rich - and one that our Elite have foisted on us endlessly and shamefully for decades in order to enrich themselves. When are we going to become brave enough to be "selfish" again; to become like David Copperfield and ask for "more"? To ask for what is our due as a taxpayer, a citizen, a self?

Sorry things are so bad - I may be right where you are in a couple of years. Get to a big city that has alot of social services for the homeless. I was just in Spokane and they seem to have alot. I've heard Portland is very good, plus the climate is much milder. Also, at least for now, Orgegon is still controlled by Liberals. After a couple of years on a waiting list, they might be able to get you set up in an apartment. Don't feel shame, man. You tried. Many people have been out on the streets only to rise again with a little help. In the meantime, Portland has large parks and a nearby Wilderness area you can camp out in. In the winter, there are shelters. During the day, you can hang out in the library and malls. Anyway, good luck and let us know how it goes.

"The Revolutionary Moment" comes when it becomes sufficiently evident that the price of oil is pulling the economy down. OPEC has already refused to increase output. The talk seems to be that $75 a barrel is no longer a good "normal." Instead, the producers seem to be setting the new normal to be around $90. This is a death sentence for the American economy.

The time is at hand.

"Virginia's lawyers argued that the federal government could not regulate someone for not buying a good or service under the U.S. Constitution's Commerce Clause and could not penalize them for failing to buy health insurance." - Reuters

Looks like Obama should have went with a single payer system to begin with, eh?

The classic example is a shoe factory in which the workers can't afford to buy their own product. The poor Capitalists are now disheartened at the prosperity of China and are looking with great longing on Vietnam as a source of slave labor. Where did it all go wrong? As you said, we wanted something for nothing. Freedom isn't free or as Seb said, we focused to much on the freedom to choose and hardly ever on doing the right thing. And even those who would do the right thing can't because they have to compete with the criminals. The only answer is Protectionism - yes, tariffs. You can't compete with slave labor without becoming a slave yourself. Yes, they've been vilified for generations - by the hired guns of the Corporations in Academia.
And Marx hated them too - Marxists hate reform and the Nation State. They want Capitalism to go to its inevitable extreme and die in chaos and blood. Study history - tariffs are one of the main instruments of nation building - or rebuilding. So what if they're damned to hell? The "authorities" are a bunch of academic whores dancing for their dinner. It's an utterly reasonable, outside the box thing to do - just as reasonable as throwing out the illegals and getting full employment back. Renounce your innate conservatism and become a radical or real conservative. Radical just means to get to the root of. And that's what we have to do: get to the root of the problem. Get out of the fucking box.
Reinstating Glass-Seagall would be a fine first step. Then employ thousands of Americans in building the Wall. Then kick out the Mexicans. Then bring the troops home and put one third of them on the border. Then impose tariffs. Then rebuild the rairoads a la Kunstler. Then elect me as POTUS. You can be my Secretary of Finance. Read "The Creature from Jekyll Island" and submit a full report on the steps that should be taken based on the information revealed therein.

I'll not condesend by saying to you that your post devastated me emotionally. Please, please try to keep your chin up. You'll get through this! Follow the advise of Antimatter (seemed like sage advice to me, at least). Explore social services in large cities. Moving to a locale with more services will surely help you in the short run. Please don't get dispirited!

I bitch relentlessly about petty grievances, but I could easily be you inside of 3 - 5 years. Money can only be savored as long as it lasts. This will truly become a problem for your generation which is huge in number. And who among us can easily say (smugly or otherwise) that we can merrily go along, tomorrow or even a month from now, if our costs for heating go up TEN FOLD?

When I feel despondent, I think of some of the many posters here who can, for what it's worth, decree that this old, Happy Motoring culture of ours isn't worth (perhaps never was) keeping. I mean, perversely, we are a morally deginerate culture - one that needs to be replaced, sort of like a decaying tooth (just got back from root canal surgery - seems appropro, although probably not really).

What formerly was known as "adult" in our culture has disappeared into outright infantalism. Just got an e-mail from a "friend" chastising me about not letting her know about our social group's annual Christmas party! Can't figure out when I got to be the bitch's "mother"! At any rate, "Anti", please don't give up! Your plight, and that of JHK's grocery store cashiers isn't lost on me. Keep up the fight, man! Good luck!

Southern New Mexico, if not the whole State, seems to have been ceded to Mexico without them telling anybody (illegaly). So any White or Black who lives there is going to have to deal with people who consider him an interloper. After a few years, it may well become official and Whites and Blacks would be ordered out as illegal immigrants - or at least foced to swear allegiance to Mexico.

"seems appropro, although probably not really)."

SHOULD HAVE BEEN "apropo".

Once again: The death of hope and the beginning of a fascist america run by elite war profiteers occurred when JFK was murdered right in front of us and we accepted the obvious coverup. We were willing to trade our control of events for the false prosperity and security of the American Dream, even as they murdered RFK and MLK in turn and 50,000 of us were sacrifised in Vietnam. We did not rebel, we were cowed by the forces of darkness who are now finalizing the collapse of democracy. The barbarians have grasped the levers of power and seized the wealth of the people, yet they will end up ruling a diseased and stricken planet. Such is the fate of ultimate greed.

"The only answer is Protectionism - yes, tariffs."

You have to think about what has driven globalization--consumer demand for lower prices. The consumer will ALWAYS want lower prices. That's part of being a consumer. The only difference between now and 50 years ago is that manufacturers are willing to go some place else to exploit another country's labor force. Globalization is doing to the Chinese people what the Industrial Revolution was doing to us before Franklin Roosevelt.

I think the only answer is sharing a common currency with China and Vietnam. Then, if the factories go to another country, follow right behind them, merging with that country's currency and if producers want to continue exploiting labor even though we share a common currency, then they'll have to figure out why people are not buying their products (hint: you have to pay your workers enough to buy the products they make).

If you think about it, what else is a currency but a measure of the quality of supply chain mechanisms within a particular economy?

Please forgive my stupidity! It was Vlad's advice I echoed (imagine that!) Anyway, apologies all around...and yes, I will try my hardest to keep my mouth shut going forward!

The answer, at least partially, is simple, but never to be. Cut corporate taxes, among the highest on the globe, and regulations strangling our companies, and align them with the rest of the world. Bring back our factories by giving them 3-5 years of federal and state tax exemptions to entice them to return, and even open new manufacturing plants from foreign investors. Without a manufacturing base, there is no way to grow wealth, or avoid the destruction of our once great country. Helicopter Ben will merely continue to print money without any backing, which the elites use to grab more of what remains of the national wealth. The destruction of the U.S. is by design and that is why no one even suggests the common sense answers to restore our manufacturing base. I do not agree that "all" Americans are too cowed and beaten down to resist our increasingly marxist/fascist, i.e., National Socialists, leadership. There will be staged assaults against Americans like Ruby Ridge and Waco, intended to frighten Americans out of any thoughts of resistance, but the response will be both surprising and frightening to our corrupt leadership, especially the refusal of our military to slaughter their fellow Americans. Rather, look for a military coup to save this country from the marxists planned destruction.

I get the impression that a perfect storm scenario is coming our way here in the US. Over the past several decades we have engaged in many unsustainable practices, e.g. outsourcing productive jobs and increasing bureaucratic "work", extravagant energy consumption, and so on. Now the chickens are coming home to roost. This unsustainability was masked by cheap oil. Should we be surprised? I think not. This is what JHK calls "The Long Emergency" which, from my viewpoint, we have now entered.

antimatter, thanks for the candor. Sometimes it's hard to "fess up to the Guv'nah" about bad situations, and I admire you for being able to do it.

I'm sitting in my 45 degree living room, arctic wind whipping through the "warm" part of the country down here in Jawjah, unable to afford to heat the house beyond keeping the one wet wall above freezing with a space heater, but at least my wife and children are at my grandparents staying nice and toasty.

I won't pile on Asoka about moving to the desert southwest. Water is almost gone there, so please don't listen to such tom-foolery, folks. (And no, you wouldn't want to live in the southeast either;) We don't take too kindly to new ideas down here, so if you have 'em, peddle 'em elsewhere. We got rain and firewood galore, but no fertility left in the hard red "soil"...although...we do have plenty of 2x4s to eat, if you can find some cellulose-digesting gut microbes to partner with, but our summers are unbearably sultry. There's a reason why so many southerners are born in July. October is the first month cool enough to get that close to another person.

I'm all out of positive this week, got it sucked right outta me by last week's thread, so I'll see you guys next week, after the weather improves a bit, and my fingers thaw out. Maybe? Meantime, shivering or not, there's plenty of work that needs doin'.

Peace to all this holiday season.
Tripp

Oh, and Q, you can suck it, you know you want to;)

Before I run, POC, I wasn't suggesting that you don't know what you're talking about, just frustrated that you thought I was making shit up.

That pissed off response of yours was some world-class windmill-tilting...

ErikSF99 said: "Asoka, I realize the New Mexico is on the eastern side of the continental divide..."

Yeah, mention New Mexico and most people think Santa Fe, Taos, and Albuquerque. I was referring to less high-rent parts of southern New Mexico.

The water issue will be solved the same way other problems will be solved: energy descent (we will learn to use less water), re-localization (we won't depend exclusively on centralized water supply), and permaculture (a paradigm shift that will recharge water supply).

Re-localization is happening now, as many areas are legally requiring rainwater catchment. Rainwater harvesting has been used to provide drinking water, water for livestock, water for irrigation or to refill aquifers (groundwater recharge).

Rainwater systems are simple to construct from inexpensive local materials, and are potentially successful in most habitable locations. Roof rainwater is usually of good quality and does not require treatment before consumption.

Household rainfall catchment systems are appropriate in areas with an average rainfall greater than 200mm per year (about 8 inches), and no other accessible water sources (Skinner and Cotton, 1992). Many parts of southern New Mexico receive more than 8 inches of precipitation annually.

OPEC refuses to up production?
That would be because they can't I guess, just like in 2007 as prices soared into the 100+ range and the US president was seen making a international spectacle of himself, pleading with the Saudi king to "turn the taps on" so the American people didn't have to pay $4 a gallon for gas.

I'm sure the Saudis didn't want to say "no" and then watch the resultant recession dramatically reduce oil demand and cause the crash in oil prices and their own profits, but they had no option. They cannot produce more.

That's Peak Oil - that number of barrels per day beyond which production plateaus (even as demand increases) then goes into permanent decline. It's been coming for a while. As long ago as 1982, the State Department released a report which stated:

" . . world petroleum production will peak in the 1990-2010 interval at 80-105 million barrels per day..."

How interesting that world oil production in 2007 was hovering at approximately 85 million barrels per day, just as prices soared and President Bush made his mercy dash to Saudi Arabia.

The results were predictable, just as they are again now. Prices surge, markets crash, demand drops and western society goes back into a happy state of denial, feasting on the "green shoots" of another economic recovery until the next time demand crashes into production limits. (The Mook summed that up nicely above :)

Add the Fed's fumbling attempts to stimulate the US consumer economy by printing money and injecting it into the system, and watch as inflation does its nasty work making oil seem even more expensive as demand increases. $90 oil is just like 2007's $75 oil now that the US dollar has been gutted by quantitative easing...

Climate Change or just 'the weather'?
L.A. continues to have record breaking weather.
hot and cold.
after a very cold spell it was 87, broke the record.
and in september it was 113. hottest day ever in 100+ years of record keeping.
and it had been a cold summer on the coast due to fog that was due to changes in sea temperature.

worrys will only make things worse.
worry is emotional. thought is not.

Last Friday, I went to a presentation by Ellen Hodgson Brown about transforming banking.

Her flyer included a quote from Henry Ford: "It is well enough that the people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning."

Ellen Brown is the author of the book, "Web of Debt." She talked about the state-owned Bank of North Dakota, and how it has kept North Dakota solvent for some ninety years. She thinks a State Bank of California could do the same thing, and is putting together a group of people to take the steps needed to make that happen. With Jerry Brown as governor, it's a real possibility. Ellen Brown has a web site http://www.webofdebt.com/ And there are also videos of her speaking, which you will find if you Google her.

And the Bank of North Dakota has a web site with lots of fascinating history showing how and why it was established, in 1919. It's worth a look. http://www.banknd.nd.gov/about_BND/prairie_public_history_of_BND/index.html The history pages are great!

I also have a book called "Out of Debt, Out of Danger," written in 1942 by then California Congressman Jerry Voorhis, who was later defeated by Richard Nixon (using dirty tricks). It covers much of the same territory, but does not advocate a state bank. It focuses on the Federal Reserve. One of its main points is that Congress has abdicated its Constitutionally given right to create money, giving it to private bankers, and should take it back.

One of the most interesting things in Ellen Brown's presentation was a chart showing moneys spent on social programs and money spent on interest. The moneys spent on social programs go along for decades on wavy lines that are pretty much horizontal. But the interest line goes steadily upward until there's a large and growing triangle of interest. That's the real reason for our current problems. That's why we're cutting school moneys and government employees--because private banks are collecting more and more interest from the state and federal taxpayers!

The idea of establishing state-owned banks is the best one I have heard for solving our current problems. And the fact that one has existed and worked well for 91 years was great news. There's a model.

How to make this happen? Developing a groundswell of public demand for state banks, and later even a national bank, is important. Finding people who know how to set up a bank is important. (She said the easiest way to do it is by taking over a failing bank, and she said it can be done in 60-90 days.) Finding people who have studied banking and know how to read the financial statements is important. (Her son is a graduate student in economics, and when she asked him, he said he didn't study BANKING.) I see that there is a School of Banking in North Dakota. Who would have guessed? Inviting her to speak in other areas would be good, and publicize it well.

A few tidbits from her talk:

"Modern Money Mechanics" is a book put out by the Fed and available online. She recommended it.

There's a movie called "California Dreaming," made by a European about American people living in tent cities.

Cutting out interest reduces project costs by 30-50%.

Public debt IS the money supply, so we can't eliminate it. We can eliminate the DEFICIT but not the DEBT. The de-leveraging (contraction) of the money supply that is happening now is the cause of our fiscal problems.

To those who think North Dakota is too small to serve as a model for a state like California, the History of the Reserve Bank of Australia makes interesting reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_Bank_of_Australia

And then, of course, there is the People's Republic of China, whose citizens are certainly not paying interest to private banks and bankers. From Wikipedia: The People's Bank of China (PBC or PBOC) is the central bank of the People's Republic of China with the power to control monetary policy and regulate financial institutions in mainland China. The People’s Bank of China has more financial assets than any other single public finance institution in world history.[2] Read more here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People's_Bank_of_China





there was a bill in senate [as you probably know] to rename the state..the name it had when
mehico owned it.

Here it is folks, the unthinkable becoming the inevitable: Detroit is thinking about removing city services ie fire, police, garbage removal from swathes of the city because of the no money situation. Going to concentrate what money they have on the viable neighborhoods. So folks will have to move if they want the city services. The alternative to not moving? No need to paint the picture. We all have one in our heads.

No formal plan yet but wait for it.

Source? Huffington Post.

Question is how many more cities/states will do the same? This as the gangsters on Wall Street hoard more and more.

Power hates a vacuum. So the question is this: as city and state governments recede and uniformed symbols of their authority disappear how long before the old order gets replaced?

Maybe you have insurrections and informal militias taking control of swathes of cities and states where the old traditionally constituted authorities no longer have the reach or the will to go.

Maybe like the fifth century Roman Army you have the US military being recalled from far flung deployments to subdue restless locals and their leaders who were telling Washington/state capitols to go get fucked, we're not paying taxes, you have no say here. Maybe the problem will then be soldiers telling civil authorities hey we aren't getting paid and why should we shoot Americans anyway?

Maybe, one day, in the teeth of massive civil unrest and disorder, you have an American General, in the employ of Chinese paymasters, telling the last US President to go to his villa and stay away from Washington. Just like the barbarian chief Odoacer told Romulus Augustulus the last emperor of Rome.

Or maybe Chinese oligarchs approach Pacific state capitols or cities on the west coast offering "financing" in return for ownership of hard assets like tracts of land, mines, stands of timber, offshore oil deposits, maybe in return for accommodation of Chinese forces, maybe offering the re-establishment of public order.

Especially as Washington has apparently abandoned them and state governments are bankrupt and impotent. Maybe this is all mental masturbation and science fiction or maybe not.

BeantownBill replied to comment from asia

You saying that everyone in the Business is Jewish?
OF COURSE NOT
Don't think $20 Million-per-picture-Brad-Pitt is Jewish. Nor his wife.

Friend of mine lives in LA, West Hollywood. Is in the business.[ OK...IS HE GOY???]
I visit every few years, go on location somewhere and watch a movie being made. I can tell you, the film crew isn't Jewish, mostly.

THE COOLIES ARE GOYS OR JEWS ' WORKIN THEIR WAY UP'

Here just a litle more proof that JHK was right about Nowhere!

'Walkable' Communities More Close-Knit, Study Finds

Residents are also healthier, happier, with a higher quality of life

FRIDAY, Dec. 10 (HealthDay News) -- Americans who live in walkable neighborhoods are more involved in their communities, more trusting and have a higher quality of life, a new study suggests.

A walkable community means people have an easy stroll to such destinations as parks and playgrounds, club meetings, and services such as a post office, barbershop, coffee shops and restaurants, explained study author Shannon Rogers and colleagues, from the University of New Hampshire.

They interviewed 700 residents in 20 neighborhoods in two New Hampshire cities about the number of locations they could reach by foot in their community, their trust in the local community, participation in community activities and socializing with friends, all of which comprise what is called "social capital."

The researchers found that walkable neighborhoods scored higher on every measure of social capital than less walkable neighborhoods. People who lived in walkable neighborhoods were also more likely to report being in good health and happy more often than those in less walkable neighborhoods.

"Walkability has been linked to quality of life in other studies. Walkability may also enhance social capital by providing the means and locations for individuals to connect, share information and interact with those that they might not otherwise meet," the researchers noted.

"The links we found between walkability and measures of social capital in this study provide further evidence for the consideration of social capital as a key component of quality of life," they concluded.

The study appears online in the journal Applied Research in Quality of Life.

Time magazine recently had a story about
the Dollar Tree stores. How the sales
continue to skyrocket. It was a very flattering
piece about how well Dollar Tree merchandises
and the value their shoppers get. It mentioned
that domestic Walmart sales were down 6 quarters
(same store sales on average). In other words
Walmart shoppers are finding WalMart too pricey.
and going to the only place cheaper.Its all
about discretionary income and more and more
Americans have less and less.

SHOULD HAVE BEEN "apropo".
=========

I know it makes no sense unless you're French but it's apropos.

Suckers.

Cash, remember a few years ago when the the big Chinese oil company wanted to buy Unocal? Big uproar. I'll bet there would not be such a big uproar now. Plus, you've got all sorts of states and municipalities trying to sell off public assets for operating expenses. I believe Indiana has leased their turnpike for example. Chicago leased out all its parking meters. Pennsylvania was well on the way to leasing out its turnpike system too. The states and municipalities are doing just exactly what many consumers did: turn their assets into ATM machines! And we see how that worked out! In any case, we may well find ourselves in the same predicament that the Germans found themselves after WWI - where much of their infrastructure was foreign owned, sold off to pay the reparations. At least the cause of their travail was that that lost a war. What did we do? We spent ourselves into the poorhouse.

I can easily imagine the Chinese owners of our debt wanting to convert the debt they hold into assets. Why not? It isn't as though they stole our money. We took their products and gave them scrip. There are only so many factories they are going to want to buy. Soon enough they will want to buy more land and fixed assets here. And since the American rule is that he who has the cash makes the rules, who can deny them that right?

Would be nice not to have illegals

But what king of jobs do they take? Construction, mostly, food deliveries, cleaning houses, what else? Construction is half dead. Food deliveries could be done by kids after school for pocket money.

Their jobs would not even scratch the surface of unemployment

"the love that the human heart puts out drives the universe."

No, it is actually fusion of hydrogen into helium within stars that drives the universe. Stars synthesize all the other elements as well. Everything that exists on earth was flung out of a supernova. It required about four supernova cycles to create all the heavy elements that exist here.

But anyways...

In CNN's Living section today:

"The new hungry: College-educated, middle-class cope with food insecurity"

http://www.cnn.com/2010/LIVING/12/13/food.insecurity.holidays.middle.class/?hpt=Sbin

The only way change will come for the working classes is through massive--massive protests, and a nationwide strike. Otherwise, forgetaboutit!

There is a two party system operating as a single party. When both parties rely on the same elite funding sources for their million dollar campaigns, then the elite will get what they want from those elected representatives and president.

The elite are all about one thing---greed, and feeding off of the treasury's trough to expand their incomes.

Change will never come. It will just get worse more quickly when the Cons take over the entire government. I guess if we currently have a president who is academically very smart, yet is a complete nincompoop, then electing a complete nincompoop out of the GOP's top 5 list who lacks a single brain cell, then I guess who sits in the White House really doesn't matter anymore.

http://eye-on-washington.blogspot.com

Suckers.
======

Client Schmient!

The Federal Reserve literally handed out trillions in zero interest loans to banks and corporations (see links in comments section from last week's story). The bailout was only the beginning. Then these entities were able to re-lend this money at a higher interest rate, thus creating a chain of credit that grows their capital to the tune of billions. Or they could invest their free money in the markets for capital gains. So the big boys get the free money when they need it. That's how the system works.

Yet, as sad stories like antimatter's attest, American society seems to put very little value on sustaining the "man in the street," struggling to get by. The social safety net in America is fraying, so that millions of formerly middle class people are in danger of falling right through it.

What does this suggest?

America needs a massive reinvestment in its social services infrastructure. We need to make sure that people can stay in their homes or at least be put up in decent housing, even if they can't pay rent or a mortgage. We need to make unemployment insurance last indefinitely. We need to make sure people can eat. The government needs to sustain people's basic modes of survival. If that's called socialism, well then that's fine. The system we have is basically socialism for the ultra wealthy, so let's re-balance these scales and get some socialism back for the common person.

One would think that a bump of 5% on the upper tax bracket would be a justifiable yang for this ying of improving the safety net, given that the top 1% has, over the last 30 years, taken nearly all of the economic gains, while the middle class has stagnated and even fallen behind. Or what about a bump in the capital gains tax of 1% to 2%?

In other words, where's the bailout for those who actually need it? We were able to keep our "too big to fail" zombie banks in easy credit. McDonald's, Harley Davidson, and Verizon pulled down billions in zero interest loans.

Where's the help for the man in the street?

Many middle class people seem to think that someday they will be making over $250k in taxable income. And when they get there, they want to keep as much of it as they can. For most, this is only an unachievable fantasy. Far more important for most in the years ahead will be to not fall off the edge of the economic cliff right into poverty.

I agree with JHK. When millions start to fall from the middle class here, that means the wheels have come off. I don't want to see it happen. It means disaster, if only because every other person here seems to be armed like Rambo. What are people going to start to do when they have no money to buy necessities? Simple. They'll take them, by force if they have to.

Finally, I want to say something about capitalism itself. Yes, this system has powered the world's growth over the last two hundred odd years. There are some viable concepts embedded into it. But one consequence of this system is the utterly inhumane and pernicious doctrine that each person needs to "make a profit" simply in order to survive in the world. We do not usually examine this unspoken assumption or its consequences, which are disastrous if not tempered by socialist principles. Capitalism says nothing about quality of life or moral principles for society. It only states that everything can and should be sacrificed on the altar of profits. Our current situation in America is an example of this. We seem willing to go right off the cliff, following this ideology to its logical conclusions.

This nation is kept intact only by the widespread delusion of winning the lottery. Propose revolution and people get mad: you’re proposing wrecking their chance to gamble and become millionaires. Las Vegas is our spiritual capital, Wall Street is just the monster outpost.

Yes, Obama has turned out to be just another politician of our times, dedicated to the plight of the international wealthy who still don’t have nearly enough and whom we all wish we could be. He does what he can to help them drive more nails into our coffin of poverty. But at least we get fed fulfilling fantasies.

If we ever stopped dreaming, it would be time for the pitchforks and torches.

I always enjoy your comments Asoka. We have similar views although I'm not as much of an Obama fan as I used to be. That's another topic, though.
I also live in rural southern NM and feel like I'm in the best possible place in the U.S. for the coming crisis. As long as we get our yearly monsoons, we've got the best of all worlds. For those of you who've only seen the worst of NM, you'd be astounded by what you haven't seen. Just as well, though. We're doing just fine without you. Many of us out here in the middle of nowhere are growing our own food, harvesting our water, and building sensible, sustainable housing. We barter, we share and we are preparing, without the disadvantage of a dysfunctional government, for the coming changes.
I worry about my friends and family in big cities but as the collapse becomes more evident, I'm hoping some of them will join me here in this piece of heaven. I just wish I could convince them that the coming collapse is real and not just crazy talk.
Lynn, I always enjoy your comments and I think your diet plan is great. Positive, proactives people can make a difference and if we are to survive the future, we need more of them in our lives, even if just as blog buddies. Good luck to us all

What?! All this and no mention of Wikileaks?

The revolution has begun, and like most revolutions it's one that is starting quietly, in spare bedrooms and coffeehouses and, most importantly, the nether reaches of the Internet.

Where are the protesters? Most of those who might take to the streets learned over the last decade that you can field 100,000 protesters with signs and voices raised and the establishment yahoos will make sure there's 20 people on the other side of town with THEIR message on the signs that gets the airtime. The last major protest we had was Seattle in 1999, and TPTB clamped down to make sure THAT never happened again.

Yet what happened over the weekend was mind-blowing, although you wouldn't have known a thing if you just followed the MSM. Visa and Mastercard were brought down, as was Amazon, the US Govt site, and several others. This was done as a protest, and it was one that cost the major banksters serious money. Most of these companies were able to get back some functionality within a couple of days, but it proved to people that IT COULD BE DONE, and it taught intelligent people where the weaknesses were and how it could be done better.

The next revolution is taking place on the Internet ... right now. There is a new generation of revolutionaries that are learning how to fight guerrilla warfare in cyberspace, how to bring down companies, how to infiltrate their secrets and make them known, and even more, learning how to do it in such a way that the overwhelming advantage of the powers that be - the state and the corporatocracy's control of force and money - work against them.

A revolutionary moment, perhaps. The country has been punked. The people are being played. Just how bold will the ownership class get before things blow up? The USA is still a country of great resources and amazing people who are of a warrior mentality. Willing to fight for what is right and just. Will we rise to the occasion?

"Yes, Obama has turned out to be just another politician of our times, dedicated to the plight of the international wealthy who still don’t have nearly enough and whom we all wish we could be. He does what he can to help them drive more nails into our coffin of poverty. But at least we get fed fulfilling fantasies."

I'm really not sure that this is true. Obama seems like the kind of person who is acutely aware of class issues and imbalances. I think you just overestimate what one person can do to reform things, even the POTUS, especially in only 2 years. When I look at the laws passed under Obama thus far, it would seem to me that many were aimed at helping the middle class, e.g. student loan reform, health care reform, etc.

I do agree that the ultra wealthy and the corporations have benefited enormously in recent times from governmental policy. But that is controlled by the Federal Reserve, which the Executive Branch has little control over. In fact, that institution prides itself on being above the influence of the political process. It is actually more like a secret private entity than a branch of the government.

In other words, if Obama had said, "Let's not hand out trillions in helicopter money to the big banks," I'm not sure the Fed would have listened to him or would have been under any obligation to do so. I think the Fed deals with the Executive Branch in terms of, "Here is what we're doing," not, "What would you like us to do."

some good comments here, to the 60 year old guy getting evicted: can you still work? can you garden? can you carry a 50lb bail of hay 200' can you haul 5 gal water cans 50' can you kneel in a garden and ... garden? muck cow/horse stalls? if so, and if you are more or less an ok guy. email/post here and i'll barder you labor for room and board. since we have the same dumb ass rep in congress (glad he lost) i assume we live in the same general area.

work will be 2-3 hrs twice a day, rest of time is yours. of course if you're slow and/or lazy work can be 5-6 hours twice a day. no days off. critters need to eat/drink every day and before we do.

food is good on this farm. house is warm enough but requires longjons/ extra socks to be cozy. we live in the real world here not the plastic america that's down the road in every direction.

it would be good if you can work with your hands/tools. but i can teach much of that as most of our equipment is old and often needs repair. the thing about farming is that when it needs fixing it mostly needs it right now. rain/shine/night don't much matter...

oh, to others who think getting illegals out of country will fix jobs problem. think again, i have never found an american willing to work as hard as i need for the low salary i can afford to pay. so dw and i do it mostly ourselves.

reality is work is not hard around here. in fact not hard at all. but it must be done every day. xmas too. no days off... sick? too bad, get up and care for the animals, then you can crawl back in bed... for awhile anyway. sick animal? tend it... tend it... tend it... till you're sure it's on the mend then tend it a little more to make sure.

life is good here and we'll be better off then 99% when tshtf. but we'll need an armed guard rotation 24/7 after that. we'll not risk losing life or animals to some crazed loonie out in search of a free chicken or whatever. we will however barder labor with those willing to work for a chicken or her eggs.

Everybody gets a tax cut! Everybody! Not just Lloyd B but all you toiling and moiling shelf-stockers and check-out cashiers. Plus, you will get a reduction of several percentage points in your payroll deductions - a redoo in the dedoo!

But lets not forget the best part. Implementation of a yearlong payroll tax holiday that will undermine and ruin Social Security. Social Security will now contribute to the deficit giving its detractors great leverage with which to dismantle the program a year from now.

I wish somebody would get a clue. Can anyone guess who I mean?

Lisa spouted, "Would be nice not to have illegals

But what king of jobs do they take? Construction, mostly, food deliveries, cleaning houses, what else? Construction is half dead. Food deliveries could be done by kids after school for pocket money.

Their jobs would not even scratch the surface of unemployment"

A more ignorant statement I could not imagine. Really.

Immigrant, under the table, illegal workers depress wages for for the economic sectors they compete with: the lower class, unskilled, trades, the formerly middle class, etc. etc.

The government does not collect tax revenue from these "workers".

These "workers" use public services which we all pay for.

And so on, and so forth.

Lisa V, you contemptible idiot, please stop posting and get a brain.

the 10-30 million individuals should take their American experience and reinvest themselves in Mexico, a flailing state sorely in need of its expatriates to reform it into a real country. Pronto.

It really is a simple equation: they leave, housing prices go down, employment goes up.

to you posters who don't have a clue... you're the ones who don't know you don't... good luck.

Promised myself to stay out of the "fray" as it were. All of this talk about a "revolution", from JHK downward (upward)? I humbly recommend a book I read back in the early '90s, "Anatomy of a Revolution". Basically, it asserts that revolution (in this case, the Chineses Revolution) happens from the next-in-line to inherit "the throne", in other words, the next in line to become the elite. When they get pinched hard enough and long enough, the will take action. Forget the balderdash of "the poor masses...etc." Ain't gonna happen. Never really did. Study the Revolutionary War in America. Did ya think ol Thomas Jefferson (I'm a descendent of his, not that it freaking matters)was anything less than a disinherited malcontent? Ditto other Founding Fathers. They never would have agreed to (bravely) THUMB their noses at England! I am NOT being direspectful or unthankful, but for the actions of these brave men, I wouldn't be breathing right now. My point is, study revolution if you are interested in it. Worthy, of MINOR note, is "Generations", a book that ATTEMPTS to dilineate American society, ad nauseum.

Sorry to have to tell you this, Jim, but we're nowhere close to any revolutionary moment. We may see an occasional outburst of emotion--or hunger--based disgust and anarchy, but that's it. Any revolutionary moment takes organization and planning and masses of people being armed, ready, and willing to jump into action when "something" precipitates action. But there are no armed masses--armed individuals, maybe, but not masses; no organization (that I know of), and no possibility of cooperation. Any attempt by anyone to try to organize any resistance would be futile; everything we do or say--or think?--is being watched and recorded by the "security" agencies. Any possible threat to the state would be met by firm--and conclusive--force. Even if worse came to worse and there was widespread rioting, the country could call upon Blackwater--aptly named, don't you think?--or any number of mercenary groups who would gladly massacre a few hundred or thousands of people for a few pieces of silver (though all they would get would be promissory notes for a silver that no bank has).

So, forget it. Please try to lighten up a bit. You have a flair for words, but you are zero for all your prognostications of breakdown and catastrophe. I read you for the writing and to find out what definitely will not--never!--happen, because you prognosticate non-being, what will never be.

Reply to Turkle: As President Obama's first task is to be the Figurehead, the Moral Force. If he takes the position that the powerful and wealthy may take two extra servings of pie if they agree to toss a few scraps to the rest of us, this sends a terrible message.

Congress may have to make ugly sacrifices and deals but it's not the president's job to beg them to do this.

We are certainly in a sorry state of affairs. There is a growing sense that things are terribly wrong, but the powers that be just keep on keeping on. Like it's the only choice they have. There is a refusal to accept that which does not make them happy. We blindly march straight ahead without pause to think where we might be going. The rich and thier brood still have every wish and demand promptly taken care of. Of course, all they do is sit around and devise ways to make more money to the detriment of the rest of society - that is actually doing something of "real" value. No one cares about the people who can't afford to heat their house. What little money they have goes to basic necessities. The "rich" banks and utility companies take whatever they can until there will be nothing left to take.

End Legal Immigration too. These South Asians are doing the jobs Americans wont do - Doctors, Engineers, Computer Programming etc. There are actually guys who make a living doing seminars on how to get around the few work visa laws that are on the books. And giants of philanthropy like Bill Gates says that America needs more H1B visas given out. Shouldn't those bright people stay in their own Countries and let us work in our's?

Lisa - they haven't even slowed down. One hundred thousand legals pour in every month - enough to crush any green shoots even if recovery was possible. Many of them wont be able to find work and will collect. Why does our goverment do it? They want the country to crash into economic and ethnic chaos. Then they will step forward with the solution - Totalitarianism.

antimatter, can you get an $8 per hour job? Like at a chain store or something?

"The Federal Reserve literally handed out trillions in zero interest loans to banks and corporations (see links in comments section from last week's story). The bailout was only the beginning. Then these entities were able to re-lend this money at a higher interest rate, thus creating a chain of credit that grows their capital to the tune of billions. Or they could invest their free money in the markets for capital gains. So the big boys get the free money when they need it. That's how the system works."

Well excuse me but last week when I said that the banks should stand or fall on their own merits you posed the question "So what were we supposed to do let the banks fail?"

Now you want to falt the banks because this government (which can never get too large or take on too much) insisted they take bail-out money. (Paulson locked them in a room and told them, "You are ALL going to take bail out money because if some do and some don't it will make the ones that "do" look weak and that could set off a panic.)

So who enabled these banks to receive money at near zero rates and lend at higher than zero rates? The mother-fucking government. Yet it is the fault of the banks or capitalism when the government forced them to do what they forced them to do? Shure it is...in Turkey-lurkey land.

"We need to make unemployment insurance last indefinitely..."

Of course we do. We've done this before. It is called welfare. It doesn't matter that it has been proven that welfare almost singlehandedly destroyed Black America by driving African American males from households in order for females to qualify for welfare payments (this leading to our current state of 72% of black babies being born to unwed mothers). No, now we must reintroduce this travesty on a permanent basis.

"Capitalism says nothing about quality of life or moral principles for society."

Please. Have you forgotten the separation of chuch and state arguments? Moral principles have derived from years of legal and religious philosophies. Are you suggesting that you want business to dictate moral priciples for the society at large when local goverments have booted the very image of the baby Jesus from Christmas displays, citing the separation of chuch and state? (Of couse this in spite of the fact that "separation of chuch and state" appears nowhere in our constitution. The founders were concerned (rightly so) about the establishment of a state religion.) Period.

But subsequent reinterpretations have brought us to the point where the mere mention of a deity in the public realm is some sort of act of a delusional person who merely wants to establish some sort of fascist state with a Christian god sitting at his right hand. And now you are suggesting that evil capitalists should weigh in on morals? Surely, you jest.

You are so conflicted and confused in your positions regarding capitalism that you sound like Sybil in your proclamations Go off, do a little studying, get your shit together and then give it a try. Pretty please.

JHK: But, working in a supermarket, a person might find a way to cadge a few tidbits here and there (whoops, we broke a bag of Cheetos on the loading dock) - the catch there being you could get fired for stealing the merchandise. O sorry nation!

Funny you should bring this up Jim, years ago I worked in a major supermarket bakery during the summers and my last year there they decided the employees were eating too much of their food and went after us. I was fired by two red-faced supervisors screaming in my face that I had "stolen product".
When I asked for an explanation they said I had been observed licking my fingers of icing before I washed my hands after frosting cakes at the end of my shift! How desperate are the corporations for every last nickel if they'd rather see food washed down the drain than down the gullets of their employees. This was a miniscule amount of food, believe me. But the CEO must be paid.

"If he takes the position that the powerful and wealthy may take two extra servings of pie if they agree to toss a few scraps to the rest of us, this sends a terrible message."

I don't see where Obama said or did this, though I'd be happy to hear your opinion on it.

The financial bailout was a Bush program. Obama could not simply take that back when he came into office. His administration has been able to get many of the banks to pay this money back, though I'm not sure the figures can be believed. If you believe their claims (which I don't), then only a few billion dollars amounts to "grants."

The stimulus was not aimed at the wealthy but mostly the middle class and the poor. It also helped bailout some faltering state governments. I guess you could say the wealthy benefited from it, but not to a greater degree than everyone else.

The trillions in loans from the Federal Reserve to various entities was indeed a big gimme to the wealthy, but, again, I don't see Obama having much control over this program.

If you think he should have setup an epic confrontation with the Fed over these monies, well, I dunno. That doesn't seem politically feasible.

That said, the American economy is obviously just barely shambling along if trillions of dollars in loans to banks and corporations are required to sustain it.

The tax cuts...yeah, maybe. I don't agree with the way this is going down. Part of the reason the American government has such a large operating deficit is that the Bush tax cuts made the tax base too small. So I would have liked to have seen the cuts removed, possibly across the board.

Again, though, I don't think Obama thought it was politically feasible to do so.

If you want Obama is be like an FDR, I believe you underestimate the lack of class consciousness and solidarity in the American population. Most people seem to have bought the line that poverty is caused by laziness. Poverty itself has largely been criminalized, e.g. The Drug War along with heavy restrictions on use of public space.

So I guess you'd ask Obama to appeal to people's "better natures," but this doesn't really exist. The middle class and the wealthy are interested in keeping and growing what they have and screw the people on the bottom.

To me, a certain degree of socialism is analogous to human compassion in day to day life. And our society seems to lack this. We say to ourselves that the most poor and destitute deserve their fate, because they didn't work hard enough. Or we label whole groups (e.g. inner city blacks) as out groups and consign them to the prison system.

In this kind of environment, what exactly would you have Obama do? Or rather, what do you think he should do that would have any chance of actually changing this society?

"...Then prepare for the coming Earth changes and economic collapse by forming small communities, and loading up on food and water reserves. Dark times are nearing, and then we can consciously bring about a new reality soon, where all this doesn't exist any more...."

Sounds scary. I better make sure that my life insurance is paid up.

What is gravity but the Law of Love/Attraction operating on the physical level? Stephen J Hawking admits that the Universe seems calibrated by a Divine Hand, but he rejects it for personal reasons. He once said he hoped there was no God - an outrageous statement indicative of a desire to be God himself. Who wants a spas/crip God? He should be the last one to say such a thing.

What's going on here> Are you trying to play with my head? I mostly agree with you, except for the immigration issue.

Protectionism has gotten a bad rep over the past several decades. You are right that we can't compete with slave labor. I'd have tariffs. You want to know why? Because fair trade isn't fair. In many countries, our products aren't allowed to compete with their products, yet when the reverse occurs, we can't reciprocate. NAFTA in particular is pretty onerous this way.

Repealing Glass-Steagall was a graft-driven, political sell-out which allowed the banks to ruin our economy - or more realistically - drove the final nail in the coffin of prosperity. I might add, we also ought to imprison (for a long time) every bankster who broke the law in implementing all the Ponzi schemes that brought us low, and impeach those pols who went along for the ride.

Here is a mention of Wikileaks. Interesting reading today:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=22389

Hey, there, tza. Nice of you to join the discussion. It is always a pleasure to hear from you.

"Yet it is the fault of the banks or capitalism when the government forced them to do what they forced them to do?"

So you're saying that the big bad evil socialist government forced the poor old mega-banks and corporations at gunpoint to take trillions of dollars in zero interest loans that they didn't actually want or need. Before this, they were chugging along just fine, right?

Please, Mr. Paulson, don't make me take billions in free money!

Your explanation sounds like that scene in Reservoir Dogs where Mr. Pink is trying to describe to Nice Guy Eddie why he shot Mr. Blonde.

Some corporations and banks did not take free government monies, because they didn't need them and didn't ask for them. Others did want this money and took it (Verizon and Harley Davidson, among others). And given that the Federal Reserve is run by a consortium of the largest private banks, would it make any sense if said private banks forced themselves to take these loans? No, tza, it makes no sense what you argue. What actually happened was the ultra wealthy gifted themselves trillions in free credit courtesy of the Federal Reserve.

I'm not too confused on this point, because that's what actually happened, regardless of all your hand waving over who is to blame (e.g. the corporations or the government). I'm fairly clear on how our system of state-sponsored capitalism continues to function, e.g. by an open spigot of free credit from the Federal Reserve.

Not only this, but the world economy only functions with these periodic, massive injections of capital. It was not only American firms that took this money, but many foreign banks as well.

You're under the rather naive impression that everything would be peachy if governments took no role in propping up the financial sector, and, indeed, the entire economy. Or at least, you seem to think that late stage mega-capitalism can "stand on its own two feet" with minimal government intervention. Events of the last two to three years seem to suggest otherwise. Or at least the banks come crawling to the government for help when TSHTF for them, and they always seem to receive it. This is not a coercive system. This is capture of the government by financial interests, plain and simple.

Your mantra is "let them fail," no matter the possibly devastating consequences. I guess we could call that "nihilistic capitalism." At least you're consistent on this, though consistency is indeed the hobgoblin of small minds. To you, it would have been fine if the entire US financial system (and indeed the entire world financial system) went down in flames because, hey, at least that satisfies your libertarian political philosophy that the government should keep its "hands off" of the sacred levers of the capitalism machine.

And what does the "war on Christmas" have to do with anything I wrote? For your own mental health, please turn off the Fox News.

"It doesn't matter that it has been proven that welfare almost singlehandedly destroyed Black America by driving African American males from households in order for females to qualify for welfare payments (this leading to our current state of 72% of black babies being born to unwed mothers)."

So allow couples to receive equivalent levels of welfare so that single mothers are not encouraged and...problem solved?

Morality is about money, too, because one needs it to survive. The survival of individuals and their quality of life is the basic root of moral issues. Capitalism says nothing about equitable or fair distribution of money and leads to a lop-sided wealth distribution. Millions may starve because they don't have access to money in order to buy food, but that's just fine. They must not be making enough of a profit to justify their existence, or at least not one that doesn't involve making cakes out of mud for dinner.

This is the system that exists, with America being at the top of it. A few percentage of the population on this planet monopolizes most of the monetary resources while those at the bottom starve or just barely get by on the scraps. Pure capitalism leads to a moral system of Social Darwinism.

So, no, let's not get our morality from capitalism, because it fails in this department. Miserably.

Turkle, you just may have more patience than anyone I have ever seen online. Maybe Tripp. How do you do it? How do you continue to offer up cogent argument after cogent argument, day after unrelenting day, in the face of such unappeasable, willful ignorance?

You are a better human than I.

People can be expected to do what's best for themselves - exactly, that's why we have representative democracy so as to get some objectivity as to what's best for the Country as a whole. Anyway, people often don't know what's best for themselves - polls have shown that people would vote away most of the bill of rights if a petition was cleverly worded.

Your idea seems like capitulation - an "if you can't beat them join them" type thing. Reminds me of Bush's idea about illegal immigration: just legalize it and all the problems are solved.

The Global Slavemasters would go for it in a heartbeat though. One currency means one nation and one world - just what they want. They have enough money, now they want the power to stay on top forever. How else to explain billioniare socialists like George Soros? The Elite love socialism because freezes things in place with them on top. Who suffers most from the current tax code? The upper middle class - the very people who could possibly overthrow them.

"The hobgoblin of small minds." I love that phrase. Seems to me you see things pretty clearly. Excellent post.

A Marxist Saint. Saint Turkey. You obviously ignore and/or agree with his vicious hatred of Whites and Western Civilization. Such a small oversight. You are very advanced spiritualy too!

America is a little pig.

It lives in a brick shithouse, or so it thought, or thinks. Whatever.

Along comes the (perceived) Big Bad Wolf.

BBW proceeds to blow with all his might at the house. *WHEEEZE*

Aforementioned pigs shudder in their boots imagining the walls collapsing.

Is America so dependent on secrets that its existence or basic security is threatened by a lone man standing up and saying what is essentially, the truth?

If so, what is the nature of American power? Is it a crystal castle that can be brought down with a magic word?

Or is capable of embodying the values it claims as bedrock and unassailable? Does it even retain any "Hard" power?

Wikileaks, I praise you, I thank you, I worship at (and shine) the shoes you use to stand on to tell the truth, fuck all and everywhere.

I love it. The tide is going out and we're going to get to see who's swimming naked. I hope it causes a chain reaction that blows through our culture exposing all the lies and corruption on the way.

But so far I see the sphincters tightening in Europe's general direction. Americans are a people who are conditioned all too well to worship its overlords, and believe that all manna flows from them.

In the sharp contrast of the truth, their buried, subconscious fear is being left out to dry, barred from the dream that they became addicted to so many years ago.

Their whole lives hang by a thread, and that is the threat of the truth. The reflex fear of truth is rationally unreasonable, as no nation worth anything, based on anything solid, could possibly be threatened by one man standing up and speaking truth.

I believe America is fundamentally solid and we will not see it mortally wounded by free speech.

What I believe is that what we are witnessing is the great unmasking of the fascists, the ignorant children, the sycophants, and weak-minded in their cries to kill the messenger. Whenever such unethical, disgusting, patronizing, sanctimonious anti-morality erupts like syphilis in the population, you are witnessing the social immune system identifying the enemy. These people are the tories, the grovelling dogs in our midst, the pets of our ruling class, the pre-demential, pre-encephalitic, infantile children whose rational and ethical compasses are spinning free....

One of JHK's main theories is that things are needlessly complicated, and that the people in charge are conning the American people into thinking things are good when they're not.

One of my main theories is that the country is stuck in the past, and for the most part the pop culture past. I saw several shows on cable over the weekend about The Beatles in general and John Lennon in particular, he's been dead for thirty years and The Beatles haven't played together for forty. And the same thing exists with Elvis Presley, he's been dead for over thirty years and his heyday was over fifty years ago.

These days came and went a long time ago, and I believe the country needs to think about the future and not keep re living this pop culture stuff.

How could we have built the telegraphs, the railroads, the airplane industry if everyone had said, “No, I want things to stay the way they were when I was in college.”

It was a very good posting by Jim this week.

"But one consequence of this system is the utterly inhumane and pernicious doctrine that each person needs to "make a profit" simply in order to survive in the world."


I think capitalistic philosophy goes even deeper than that. To make a profit is just and morally correct. To grow one's wealth is the ultimate justification for one's existence. This mirrors the universe around us: spacetime is ever expanding, faster and faster.

I wish capitalism added one principle to its philosophy - capitalism with a conscience.


Superb post, Turkle. Of course, in Tza Tza
you are dealing with a Limbaugh-esque apologist
for the uber-rich. Like they got their money
morally through productive activity.

And it's not like institutionalized embezzlement
is limited to bank CEOs. When Carly Failure-ina
ran HP she gave herself usurous bonuses while HP
was losing lots of money. I suppose that, with
Tza Tza's reasoning, she "earned" that money and
to "redistribute" it is "class warfare".

As I said a few posts ago, the only class warfare
ACTUALLY BEING PRACTICED is the savaging of what's
left of the American middle class by the class of
rich people who somehow have no "enough" switch
in their superegos.

Also, for those who think that the current version
of the Republikooks represent "Constitutional
Conservatism", they should all be required to
read the writings of everyone from Washington
to Jefferson about how the system of checks and
balances is designed to, among other things,
prevent MONIED INTERESTS FROM CREATING AN
OLIGARCHY.

The illusion of democracy in the USA is creaking
and groaning before the final fall ... in 2011
when Roubini is forecasting another $1T in
foreclosures. The "freedom" we'll have was
well-described by JHK ... let's see ... this
month do I want to eat, get my medicine from
the doctor, heat my house, or actually be able
to fill the gas tank in my car.

I know enough people PERSONALLY who are arriving
at such predicaments that it doesn't require that
I wax academic about "statistics". These people
are not ciphers.


E.

Are you serious? The Fed is always one executive order or one passed bill away from being eliminated. That it hasn't just shows the collusion between it and the politicians.

*smooch*

Greetings All,
I've been reading this blog and comments for close to a decade. Now what really botheres me that most is the bullshit of the not fixing anything comments posted. No matter who you are not many of you really take to task what is about to happen, what is the root cause of why we are tumbling into the world of shit coming at us. There are no realistic,do-able solutions. Just point fingers of blame. It all seems to branch off into dysfunctional bullshit or some kind of anti semetic rant against Kunstler. You know it all fuckers need to look at what is happening as we blog and start to come up with do-able solutions to make society better and sustainable. Quit the Blame Game and fix what's broke. Deal with who screwed it up later. FIX IT ! Our lifestyles that all of us have worked hard for are in the balance of turning to total shit. I'm 63 and have spent the bulk of my life working in a factory for General Motors, only to read here and elsewhere that I and my co-workers are nothing but a bunch of greedy scumabgs for wanting a decent standard of living. Never once is an eye cast at the incompentant management that has dropped the UAW handoff. We do what we are told, build it to Engineering's spec. And if it fall's apart or doesn't sell, it's the UAW's fault. Ohhhh K ! And so many of you dumb ass sheeple really believe this ? It's just nut's ! Things look like they could get worse. The real solution is not "who's at fault ?" But how can we fix what's broke ? That seems to be the recurring theme across the blogisphere. Blame and ambiguity, but no solutions. Fucking pathetic !

Wikileaks, I praise you, I thank you, I worship at (and shine) the shoes you use to stand on to tell the truth, fuck all and everywhere.

The power of DOD networks notwithstanding, you really should take a look at this:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=22389

"The Fed is always one executive order or one passed bill away from being eliminated."

Not really.

"the price of oil is fibrillating around $90-a-barrel - and nobody is paying any attention to that."

That is truly amazing - at least to those of us who are aware of peak oil and its implications. But I would estimate from personal experience that not 1 in 200 have the slightest idea of what peak oil is. I read through the comments on economics articles in the papers and the readers seem pretty much clueless about the underlying cause of the malaise we are experiencing. The price of oil is almost never mentioned. Even when you put it under their nose they don't get it. For example, Paul Krugman wouldn't know peak oil if he tripped and fell over it. That kind of wide spread ignorant of the facts of life would suggest there will be a swift decline and collapse. And even after it happens they still will be in the dark. I hate to say it but it looks hopeless. The first step in solving a problem is to get a good grasp of what the problem is.

‎"We find ourselves in a decelerating system..." Ok, good, it's about time. So can we and the rest of the world decelerate rationally, or will it follow Dick Cavett's axiom "Death is nature's way of telling you to slow down."

Hi, Phil.

In general, there's no fixing anything with a comment on a blog. One can present a set of solutions to all society's problems, but from what I've seen, these often boil down to an "If I were the dictator" scenario and therefore do not inhabit the realm of the possible.

"There are no realistic,do-able solutions."

Well, I'm not sure if this is something you attribute to us or something you are arguing, but I believe there is a lot of truth to it in certain areas. Maybe there aren't "fixes" to certain problems, at least not ones that we find acceptable.

For instance, the problem of overpopulation is worsening and will certainly become even more nightmarish as society's resource base declines and people continue to breed. So what is the solution? It is reduction in world population to sustainable levels, and nature will do this for us if we don't do it ourselves. But no one seems to want to bring it into the realm of possibilities, because it isn't considered an acceptable resolution to drastically shrink world population.

What is the solution for "too big to fail" banks and corporations?

One idea would be to cut them all off from the Federal Reserve free credit trough. That would certainly make them fail and drastically contract. But is it an acceptable solution? Again, I think the devastating effect this would have on the economy means that most people would not find this to their liking.

"But how can we fix what's broke?"

Take the case of GM, for whom you used to work. The solution, at least for now, was having the government take them over and force a restructuring. Now the company is profitable. So that situation is somewhat fixed, but some don't think that it is an acceptable to have the government take such a strong role in the private sector. You're always going to have detractors, and not everyone will agree that a fix is really a fix. We're not talking about fixing a car here and replacing parts. This is messy, nebulous political warfare by its very nature.

So for something to be viable as a fix, it must first be politically (and morally, etc.) acceptable to enough people.

It must be doable, e.g. it doesn't require an enlightened dictatorship to implement.

How many people's proposed solutions to the world's problems pass those two basic requirements?

As far as making a difference, we all seem to want to be keyboard warriors. But a comments section on a blog is not the place to implement any real solutions. You have to get out into the real world to do this. And along with this reality is the fact that most people want to sit back and let other people do the fixing and not get their hands dirty. Since if this is the case that most people don't actually want to participate in this endeavor of real world problem solving, we, individually, shouldn't be surprised when solutions are not to our liking.

Anyways, what problems are you talking about that need fixing? You have to talk specifics, or it amounts to a bunch of hand-waving and name-calling. Some problems are more easily solved than others. Some problems have easy solutions. Some problems have NO solutions that we would deem acceptable (a brutal truth).

Good luck out there.

phil, well, i don't blame the uaw workers, but the uaw leaders didn't help it's members either. so i have no sympathy for any of them.

i have no sympathy for anyone anymore. shitty job? quit! too much debt? quit spending!

but people don't quit, people don't fix their own lives cause it's too hard. or too risky that they will end up worse off by taking personal action.

GM will fail again and again and again... till it's gone.

sadly there are no workable solutions short of complete collapse. mostly we need to fix the population overshoot that free energy produced. how do you "fix" that?

nature fixes population overshoot fast and effectively. massive die-off and collapse.

resources do not exist to plan and implement a 100-300 year population reduction plan.

america can maybe support a 100-150 million souls. we are at 320+ million. how do you fix that?

oil and food will fix it right quick when there is not enough oil there will be nowhere near enough food. he who grows the food will likely get to eat it... if he can guard it...

all the mega farms in our "farm belt" are not farms like most people envision a farm. they are giant corn and soy factories manufacturing the inputs to feed a global food processing industry.

you can't even eat what's grown on americas mega farms. it must be processed first.

all the real farms in america might be able to feed 25 million folks. not many more then that. there are very few real farms left in the usa.

most of us farmers are in our 50's now. the learning curve to farm is long and shallow. you don't just farm. it takes a long time and lots of missteps to slow you down and eat up your cash.

the core problem however is population overshoot. how do you solve an unsolvable problem? answer, you don't.

nature needs to take it's course, and it will sooner wrather then later it seems.

peak everything will see to it, i'm pretty sure.

It seemed like there was a small window when Peak Oil made it onto the mainstream radar (I remember a Time magazine cover story among other things). I have to think that more than 1 in 200 understands at least some of the issues associated with it.

Most people do not think of the future beyond a few months, much less many years (at least I remember reading a psychological study that argued this). When you start to talk about ten or twenty years from now, this is like saying "forever." When POers say things like production decline will occur in this sort of time frame, it doesn't even register with people. Because they are worried about now or maybe now + 60 days.

And when you start to talk about what happens 100 years down the road, when fossil fuels really will be in extreme scarcity (one assumes), you might as well be talking astrology for all people care.

The older generation, say the Baby Boomers, are largely aware of resource issues. If you talk with people from that generation, you'd be surprised just how aware. But they hope that things will only really get bad after they're dead and that their wealth will carry them through retirement into a nappy funeral. Or the old "someone will think of something" self-soothing routine has made a big comeback (electric cars! solar windows! etc.). The scientists will come up with a solution right at the last minute is the thinking I often here from people.

The younger generation, say those under 30, are largely unaware, because this is a pretty uneducated group. Or those who are aware generally don't talk about it except on these kinds of websites. Because when you talk about how civilization will collapse as oil peaks and declines at, say, your little Christmas Party or whatever, it's just a bummer, man. It is outside the whole "I'm okay. You're okay." paradigm, which most people want to maintain at all costs.

As far as the current cost of oil, it really isn't that high. It seems to me that it is edging up again, but you're talking about 15 or 20 cents more per gallon, i.e. fairly marginal increases that most people can deal with for now. Even judging by how European societies are still able to function with high gas prices, I'd guess we have a ways to go.

Now when the price of oil (and other fossil fuels) starts to oscillate wildly or let's say when oil doubles in price, then there will no denying that TSHTF. And anyone who is in the least bit well informed will understand why this is happening. Of course, there will be the usual collection of cargo cultists and faith-based low-information nabobs who say it is all a conspiracy of the oil companies, OPEC, etc. But at some point, I'm guessing that most people will actually know what's up.

Why not immigration, Bill? How many do you want? The Establishment plans to have 400 million here by 2050. A complete Tower of Babel, an ethnic stew simmering in blood. And consider the ecological catastrophe of 400 million. Two hundred million was more than enough. Try to be objective, please. Yes, the top of the pyramid will benefit as the bigger the base the higher the top. But there is a limit - do the Judeo-Masonic Elite understand limits? Sure it's good for your people - the more diverse, the more power a unified people can have. But you will get into the Law of Diminishing Returns. Certainly Jewish quality of life will go down as the ungrateful minorities make their bids for power. You never appreciated us and you will not until we are completely dispossesed. No more White Middle Class to buffer you against your dark children.

I generally feel uncomfortable with all the doom and gloom and recessive thinking. Forget about TPTB and the Elite. Think deeper, try to look at the big picture. We're living in a time of great technological change, which inevitably brings existential angst, strife and unrest. We're trying to head to an advanced, technological and unimaginable future. Like Tripp says, we are heading towards a keyhole event. Where I disagree with him is what happens to us when we emerge into the other side of that keyhole.

Every point along the axis of time eventually becomes the present. Beyond every present point lies an infinity of futures. CFNers mostly envision the whole subset of potential futures that send us to death and destruction or a simpler, more rural way of life, like the 18th century,or both. There are valid reasons to believe these futures will actually occur.

But, there's another subset of potential futures, ones in which we advance. There are also valid reasons to believe these futures will occur. Which future we embrace is therefore an individual, personal decision. For me, I choose the ones where we advance, not degenerate.


"i have no sympathy for anyone anymore."

I think you sell yourself short. Your post directed at antimatter suggests that you are a sympathetic person.

Instead of saying to him, "screw you...I got mine" (the response of a truly unsympathetic person), you offered him work on your farm.

It's probably the nicest thing I've ever seen anyone write in this comments section.

Best wishes.

There's no doubt a limit to population sustainability. The question is, what is that limit? I remember thirty or so years ago reading about some Russian scientists claiming the Earth could support a human population of 14 billion. If that's true, we are halfway there.

When I was 8 years old, The US population was 150 million. It's now about 310 million. Yet we're still chugging along. My feelings about immigration have nothing to do with being Jewish. It's based on my father being an immigrant himself. So please don't turn this into a discussion about the Jews.

It's the Incredible Shrinking Middle Class!!

Ah the conversation overheard at the supermarket is right out of Dickens, what perfect timing --just in time for Christmas-and the glorious tax cuts benefiting the richest 2% big-time!

The Republican track record is abysmal for job creation, but they can keep the spiel going even if the economy still produces no jobs in 2 years they still win their case. If you use the logic that you simply can't raise taxes during a recession. You can fool people over and over again these days. Don't forget, the jobs aren't coming back for five years....

This is a glimpse of the dwindling middle class and the burgeoning of the working poor. And how could it have turned out any differently than it has?
The Democrats lost their footing a long time ago and the norm has been the Republican mantra of the two Santa Clauses.The Jude Wanniski's supply-side economy and Laffer's tax-cut theories along with free trade have slowly brought this country down. At first we didn't notice, but it's all too clear now and these idiots want more of the same, claiming its going to be different this time.

Both sides of the aisle buy into it. Only poor Bernie Sanders is left howling at the moon.

Our pols are pleased as punch, after all they're all in the business of getting rich.

Yesterday on Fareed Zacharia, he said someone in China is laughing.
They will hand us the rope with which to hang ourselves. They'll Keep lending us money to pay the rich while they are investing $1.3 Trillion on high end jobs--
------huh? That's what we thought we were doing---
Well it ain't happening and soon you too will be willing to work for any low wage they will be offering.
This century belongs to China. Oh, what a theory, what an economic system!

Re: Revolution

In a country that can conjure a wacko crazy enough to kill John Lennon, you'd think we could muster up more than a few people willing to plant Lloyd Blankfein's head on a stick in front of 85 Broad--along with Greenspan's, Dimon's, Geithner's, Paulson's, Cheney's, and...you know, like a string of Christmas lights or balding lanterns.

Dear Santa,

All I want for Christmas is...and I'd willing to blow you if you'd do this for me.

I would refuse to belong to a blog that would have someone like me for a member.

Hi, Bill.

Thanks for the thoughtful post.

I guess the problem I have with your line of thinking is that so-called doomer scenarios are firmly based in reality, whereas those that posit an "advanced, technological" future for most of mankind are not. They are based in cargo cult like fantasies and science fiction like Star Trek.

Doomers have examples of modern countries that fit their predictions (Somalia for instance).

The "business as usual" trajectory of increasing population combined with decreasing resources cannot possibly lead to a future where the bulk of humanity advances, at least not by any modern standard. Or if the future is significantly more advanced, it will only be for the segment of the population that has access to this high technology society. The global per capita usage of energy peaked in the early seventies and has been declining. This trend is unlikely to reverse. And high energy use per capita is part and parcel of any advanced, technological system.

Only a minority of the world's population takes part in advanced, technological society in our world. Most people do not have electricity, telephones, running water, or let alone the internet. Most people do not own automobiles. Many do not have access to clean drinking water and adequate sanitation systems.

And here's the quandary. As more and more people strive to belong to the advanced technological society to experience the good life, the resource base becomes more strained, thus shutting people out from it.

So maybe from your perch in America (presumably) you can state that we are going to enter the technological singularity. We will have a whole new advanced, technological golden age.

Meanwhile, people in most of the rest of the world struggle to find drinking water that doesn't have shit in it.

"But, there's another subset of potential futures, ones in which we advance. There are also valid reasons to believe these futures will occur. Which future we embrace is therefore an individual, personal decision. For me, I choose the ones where we advance, not degenerate." -Beans

I take your point, but I'm of a mind that circumstance will be doing the choosing. I s'pose that the "type" of personalities emerging on that other side will dictate the direction[s] that humanity will take, as well.

I don't denigrate your hopefulness; I just don't think there will be much in the way of techno-advancement for quite some time (with bare survival being paramount). I'll be preparing for some brutish shit, but here's hoping things turn out YOUR "chosen" way. :o)


Referring to a Turkle comment, CaptSpaulding said: "The hobgoblin of small minds." I love that phrase.
==========

Capt, I hope you realize that Turkle was quoting a famous line from Ralph Waldo Emerson and doing so without attribution. Like many who have used this line feeling it supports their point of view, Turkle leaves out the most important word: foolish.

The correct quote is:
"a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds." I have my differences with TZA but his consistency has not been foolish.

I'm quite disappointed to see you giving kudos to Turkle for "seeing things clearly." I couldn't disagree more. With Turkle's thinking there will never be an end to bailouts, fiat money and the monster of ever-growing BIG Socialist Govt. I abhor all three.

It is inevitable that these elements of our political and financial life will continue and grow worse since we have already advanced so far down the path. But some day, almost unexpectedly, I envision it coming to a dramatic end ... perhaps like the demise of the Soviet Union and the tearing down of the Berlin Wall. When? I have no idea.

A lump of coal in your stocking might just come in handy this winter.

"So please don't turn this into a discussion about the Jews."

Vlad can turn any topic into a discussion about the Jews. It is one of his (few) talents.

Aha! A Groucho aficionado, eh?

Hey, Q.

"With Turkle's thinking there will never be an end to bailouts, fiat money and the monster of ever-growing BIG Socialist Govt."

I am more interested in seeing the big picture clearly than in being right.

You seem primarily interested (as usual) in assigning some value judgment to one side or the other, i.e. the government is bad, and corporations/banks/capitalism are good.

I don't really see most things this way. In reality, there is not so much of a clear distinction between the public and the private sectors. They are intertwined, sometimes inseparably.

And I find it ironic that the government against which the financial libertarians so often rail, was the same one that they all came crying to for free money when their financial "instruments" turned to shit.

So if capitalists want less government, so be it. But they actually don't. At its most developed level, capitalism requires central banking to provide extreme liquidity in the form of zero interest loans in order to keep the system going. If this was not provided, economies would have periods of extreme contraction as credit dried up (Great Depression Part II anyone?). This system allows large corporations to receive profits in the good times and then charge taxpayers their losses in the bad times. Part and parcel to this system is fiat money.

Neat, isn't it?

Anyways, Q, I'd love it if you'd provide me with other models for how advanced capitalistic societies can function. Because I don't see any. Most of the advanced countries on this planet (Japan, Germany, etc.) have far more socialism than the United States. Don't you think there's a reason for this other than big bad socialist government is evil?

If it is so evil, why do the best countries (economically speaking, quality of life, etc.) seem to love it so much?

Hi Qshtik. I hated the idea of the bailouts, but I think they were a necessary evil because of the potential for catastrophic damage to the economy. I have no doubt that things would be much worse right now, if all those institutions had been left to go belly up. The part that chaps my hide is that congress passed up their chance to install some firmer regulations and require Goldman Sachs and the others of their ilk to follow them. Once the damage had been done (derivatives, etc,) there was no choice but to try to control the damage. Having said that however, I also understand that Congress is now controlled by the corporations, and nothing good will come of that. Sadly, our country is spiraling downwards, and like many other countries who have collapsed, the end stages involve corruption on a vast scale. Unfortunately, it seems to have taken on a momentum all it's own and appears (at least to me, unstoppable. I'd like to be proven wrong, but I don't think I am. I guess only time will tell.

"I have my differences with TZA but his consistency has not been foolish."

Tza clings bitterly to her philosophy of Laissez-faire capitalism as the solution to all the world's problems, even when it is shown to be non-functional, inapplicable, inhumane, or otherwise flawed. She waves away all doubts with her magic market wand. She allows no exceptions to the absolute rule that other concerns for society, moral or otherwise, must be subordinated to this worldview. The well-being and stability of entire economies and countries, the sustaining of important institutions, and a reasonable social safety net must take a backseat or get out of the car while capitalism drives where it may.

If that isn't a foolish consistency (or at least the consistency of a fool), I don't know what is.

'It's the Incredible Shrinking Middle Class'

see saws with the population explosion in the turd world and some of its unemployed 'masses' dumped on the usa
its relative.

'My feelings about immigration'

GTE BEYOND YR FEELINGS / SENTIMENTS AND USE YR CONSIDERABLE INTELLIGENCE.

issues of nations and national security shouldnt be jeopordized by [cuddly] feelings.

if you want to read abouthow US jews usually side with the left even when its dead wrong then read coulters 'TREASON'

THE GOLDEN RULE

HE WHO HAS THE GOLD MAKES THE RULES....hahahaha
and its tough for the rest of us!

Ann Coultier? Seriously dude?

decade?
how long has this website existed?

how many 'amnestys' [since raygun did the first] have we had?
and how many millions got amnesty?

"GTE BEYOND YR FEELINGS / SENTIMENTS AND USE YR CONSIDERABLE INTELLIGENCE.

issues of nations and national security shouldnt be jeopordized by [cuddly] feelings.

if you want to read abouthow US jews usually side with the left even when its dead wrong then read coulters 'TREASON'"

Was that supposed to be an example of intelligence?

Or did you misspell every other word on purpose?

LISA

'they' immigrants [legal or not] refugees, visitors, illegals..fill the schools, prisons,streets, Hospitals.

doubt it?
go look at the grade schools in pomona cali.
90% illegals, anchor babies or immigrants or their children.
one of my friends works 3 jobs [ 50 to 100+ hrs a week] so his kids dont go to school with 'them'..
after all their 8th grade maybe teaches what you learned in second grade..maybe.

however that is more and more true in all public schools.
little is taught from what i hear.
a friend has nephews in grade school in silicon valley and thats what he says.

THATS TAX DOLLARS AT WORK , FOOL.

' a minority of the world's population takes part in advanced, technological society in our world'

public radio....'1 in 5 in haiti has a cell phone.
but they dont have bank accounts..its similar in india.'

My viewpoint is not based on wishful thinking. We've been advancing our scientific knowledge for centuries. Scientific knowledge eventually gets applied through engineering. Why should that stop now, after it's been happening throughout most of humanity's existence (e.g., the use of tools, producing fire, inventions of the wheel, the lever, etc.)?

It's kind of like investing. My 1st financial advisor told me to always follow the trend. In this case, the trend has always been that science and technology has mostly allowed us to advance.

Yes, I know we may have too many people for the resources we have left. But again, there's that pesky trend.

CFNers remind me of the story of the two mice trapped in the vat of milk. You probably have heard it, it's almost a cliche. Two mice are swimming around and around trying to stay afloat and getting exhausted. One mouse finally says, "There's no way out, we're doomed." And he stops swimming, and of course, he drowns. The second mouse just can't give up and he keeps swimming and swimming. Eventually the milk turns to butter and the mouse scrambles on top of it and hops out of the vat - and he had a good meal of butter, too.

I'm the 2nd mouse. I hope I'm right and the vat turns to butter. I don't claim to be right - it's the way I think, based on my experience.

Actually, I don't want to read about how the Jews usually side with the left. Didn't I say I didn't want this discussion to become a Jewish issue?

And, my feelings about immigration are my right to have. It is customary, in polite society, to validate someone else's feelings, even if you don't agree with the basis of those feelings. Feelings aren't right or wrong, they're just...feelings.

I believe the saying is, "He who has the gold, rules".

"in polite society"

You must be kinda new here...

Tripp said: I won't pile on Asoka about moving to the desert southwest. Water is almost gone there, so please don't listen to such tom-foolery, folks.

Tom-foolery? Water almost gone?

Tripp just a few weeks ago you quoted this from Toby Hemenway:

I entered the yard through a gap between arching trees, and the temperature plummeted. The air here was fresh, cool, moist, unlike the dusty, sinus-withering stuff I'd been breathing outside. A canopy of walnut trees, pinon pine, and New Mexico black locust sheltered a lush understory of pomegranates, nectarines, jujube trees, and almonds. An edible passionflower swarmed up a rock wall. Grapevines arched over an entry trellise. Two small ponds sparkled with rainwater caught by the adobe house's roof.

This is from the book, "Gaia's Garden," on the permaculture site built by Santa Fe, NM, sculptor Roxanne Swentzell.

Then you went on to comment:

From what I understand, the soil and climate at her site, now known as Flowering Tree Permaculture Institute, were typical brutal high desert. She describes the place as "no trees, no plants, no animals, just pounded-down dirt and lots of ants."

Then you added this:

I'm also aware of a Texas scientist/engineer? who invented a tractor implement that basically creates a pattern of depressions in the hardpan (of west Texas desert soils). The little depressions have proved to be a mighty force in revegetating large tracts of desert land, as they give blowing seeds and water a place to settle.

I personally performed a follow-up experiment in my Washington garden last year. There was a small section of southern slope that was hard as a rock. My wife and mom-in-law said nothing, not even grass, had ever grown there. So I tried the divet thing I learned from this guy, knocking a chunk of god-awful concrete-like soil out of the slope in a diagonal pattern every 18 inches with a spade. In this case I mulched the area with some wheat straw too. According to father-in-law, it's now deep black fertile soil. Just another part of the garden. About an hour of work converted ~150 s.f. of wasteland into productive garden loam.

Now, in response to my suggestion that the southwest might be a viable place to live, suddenly permaculture is not being lauded.

Suddenly, "Water is almost gone there, so please don't listen to such tom-foolery, folks."

I don't know if you are aware, Tripp that intensive mining operations are resuming in the southwest and 500 skilled productions workers are being hired right now.

[sarcasm on] Strange, how these multinational corporations don't know that mining is water intensive. Strange they didn't do any studies to discover that "water is almost gone" in the southwest ... strange they apparently don't know they are about to lose millions of dollars and waste all that money hiring 500 workers. Their operation will go bust because "water is almost gone there".[sarcasm off]

Tripp, permaculture is the answer, not just in Georgia, but in the southwest USA, too.

Your characterization of "tom foolery" is inappropriate and your comment today is a contradiction of your own deeply held beliefs in permaculture possibilities in the desert, possibilites expressed by you not long ago from experiences in NM and from your experience in Washington State.

You must be large, too. :-0

You must contain multitudes. :-0

Vlad said: "Southern New Mexico, if not the whole State, seems to have been ceded to Mexico without them telling anybody (illegaly). So any White or Black who lives there is going to have to deal with people who consider him an interloper."

Vlad, are you speaking from your personal experience? What happened to you in the southwest?

I think a lot of us believe that this nation is in big trouble and a major cause of this is the vast wealth and power that has accrued to a small minority. I, however, don’t think the next step is for things to generally fall apart. I think what’s going to happen is that we and our resources will get driven down to the lowest possible value. Then the enclaved wealthy, the big state welfare beneficiaries, those same international folk who invest all their money in other nations, can come in and buy up everything at bottom dollar.

I believe the future of this nation is even more grim than many imagine. Not only do we lose our wealth, we lose our independence. We become the purchased vassals of our new owners. We’ll till their fields and dig in their mines for subsistence wages. As everything will be privatized, we’ll have no say.

Funny stuff to BeanTown:

"in polite society"

You must be kinda new here...

+============
Regarding immigration -
Bean - I've got to ask: Is there not some upper limit which US populations should not exceed?


I am always delighted to read these hilarious comments about people hoarding firewood and gold bars under their mattresses. Do you people know how crazy you sound?

Meanwhile, in the real world, this has been one of the best years ever for me. I bought the car of my dreams (a new M3 -- 15 mpg, seats two and a bag of groceries), a new house ($850k) and for my wife's birthday this year, we shopped at Bvlgari (its a jewelery store for those of you up there in the sticks) followed by a 13-course French dinner. (13 courses is a bit too many in my opinion, btw but the shaved white truffles are excellent this year). I even socked away 10 cases of Bordeaux and 3 cases of champagne for the party season. I totted up my expenditures for 2010 and they are close to a million dollars all-in.

Credit and leverage are flowing freely for those of us who know how to navigate the system, stretch the truth a little when necessary and not lose a moment's sleep over any of it. So you can either freeze your butts off up there in the woods or come down here and join the party! I know where I'll be in 2011 ...

Cheers!

The Bay Aryaan

"hoarding firewood and gold bars under their mattresses"

How do you hoard firewood under a mattress? I'd like to see this.

Antimatter and Vlad -

Antimatter - hang in there. I know that's easy for somebody to say - all the more so in the anonymous internet like this. The anger and frustration flies out from your post. ANYONE in these United States should have sympathy - and understand that only lucky breaks of chance, birth, or fate separate us from something similar.
- even that Bay Aryaan - who just posted!!!

You write well, anti - maybe that can help you find a way to help others understand as you dig out of the situation you're in right now.

==============
And Vlad - your advice was spot on and practical - both for Antimatter and for the Country. I had to look up the figure for myself - to be sure.
And it's amazing - there really have been 10 million LEGAL immigrants allowed into the US over the past 10 years.

And no telling how many illegal immigrants. No wonder there is an unemployment problem that won't go away.
===========
I can't resist one little dig at you though, Vlad.
You say to AntiMatter:

"Get to a big city that has alot of social services for the homeless. I was just in Spokane and they seem to have alot. I've heard Portland is very good, plus the climate is much milder. Also, at least for now, Orgegon is still controlled by Liberals."
===========
So Vlad - even you admit that when times get tough that it's best to be surrounded by liberals.

I do believe my work here is done!
Nah, just kidding.

Hey Bay Aryaan,
Thanks for the invitation! Now what did you say your address was again?
Hope you've got a club lock on that M3 - they're a great vehicle for ram raids...
Cheers,
Madcat

You have a private right to your "feelings". Maybe your friends are interested in them. But this is a pubic forum - your feelings are not any kind of evidence of anything discussed here. Don't believe me? Take some LSD and maybe you'll feel that you can fly. Many have before you. Go with your feeling and tell us how it goes. Hint: just try it from the second floor just in case. Not tryin' to bum trip you, man. Feel me?

There absolutely is an upper population limit. In 1999, estimates of the Earth's carrying capacity were computed taking into account some limiting factors, including depletion of fossil fuels (only small amounts left).

If the entire world was to have the same standard of living as the US with regard to our health, nutrition and freedom, the maximum population is 2 billion (less than 1/3rd of the present world pop. of 6.8 bllion). That implies a maximum US population of under 100 million.

If the whole world had the same affluence as the US, but with a total laissez faire economy with few environmental restrictions, the maximum world population would be .5 billion.

If the whole world had the same level of affluence as the US, but had many severe restictions on personal behaviors, such as limited driving, restrictions on the transportation of food, massive recycling, etc., the maximum population would be 4 billion (implying a US pop. of under 200 million).

If only the US and Europe had its current level of prosperity, with the rest od the world at the prosperity level of Mexico, the maximum pop. would be 6 billion, pretty much what it is now.

If the entire world had he prosperity level of Mexico, the maximum poputlation would be 20 billion, with a US pop. of 900 million. And if the whole world had the same prosperity level as northeast Africa, the maximum population would be 40 billion (US at 1.8 billion).

So although there is a maximum ppulation limit, that number varies according to levels of behavior and prosperity.

You are missing the point. I'm saying I have a right to my feelings. I'm not saying they're evidence of anything. And you don't have to agree with the reasons behind my feelings. But you ought to validate the fact that I do have those feelings in the first place (which you did in your last post to me).

Did I hear that right, possibly record bonuses for Wall Streeters this year?

Damn! Treat these assholes like publicly owned utilities -- they got bailed out by both Treasury and the Fed after all -- and control their pay.

If these fucks ran the Postal Service they'd be demanding like $100 million in compensation. Say what you will about USPS, but the head gets like $260,000.


LBendet wrote:

"The Democrats lost their footing a long time ago and the norm has been the Republican mantra of the two Santa Clauses.The Jude Wanniski's supply-side economy and Laffer's tax-cut theories along with free trade have slowly brought this country down. At first we didn't notice, but it's all too clear now and these idiots want more of the same, claiming its going to be different this time.

Both sides of the aisle buy into it. Only poor Bernie Sanders is left howling at the moon. "
**************************************************

Precisely, pal!! Although you'll hardly find
a Dem who confesses to practicing supply-side
economics, handing trillions of dollars to the
worst stewards of capital since the Mississippi
Company and expecting banks to stimulate the
economy with it is supply-side with a Southern
Pentacostalists faith behind it. And what did
any of these miscreants from Paulson to Dimon
to Pandit to Blankfein do to earn a scintilla
of "faith".

Though none of the corruptly-sponsored biz
channels on TV want to dwell on it for more
than a few nanoseconds, they all let a five
second news ticker slip in about how banks
are hoarding money, not lending it. The
entire reason why the stock market is rising
is because banks and venture guys are squeezing
their wallets tighter than they squeeze their
anal sphincter. The reality is that these
assholes want YOU to have FAITH in them while
their money-hoarding shows ZERO faith in all
potential borrowers. So the money goes into
the only avenue left ... portfolio speculation.

But that is what chaps my hide ... we are
collectively being asked not only to FORGIVE
the swindlers, we're being asked to have FAITH
that they have conscience enough to do the right
thing with the monies handed to them. Fool me
once, shame on me, fool me twice, shame on you.


E.


Correction: Fool me once, shame on you.
Fool me twice, shame on ME. And judging
from recent polls, the American people,
despite much denigration of them, are
actually warming up to the idea of
abolishing the Fed or at least auditing
it.

E.

E.,
With Ron Paul in place it will be discussed. I wonder whether the discussion will be behind closed doors or open to the public.

It's been pointed out a few times yesterday that there are nine people who control the derivatives world wide and they only work in the dark.

I don't see these guys giving up their power so fast. Maybe RP will choke on a pretzel.

A Revolution?

I am Technologist, and I do not think that could happen, for many of the reasons stated on this Blog site in the last 24 hours.

As I make my comments here, please note that EVERYTHING we say over the phone, put in emails, put on the WEB in Facebook or LinkedIn, or wherever, is being watched and recorded. Does not matter what kind of encryption you use or what kind of proxy server.

The CALEA Act is just one example, then the Patriot Act right after 9-11. (it was already in the works)but just a coincidence? This "group" has thought of just about everything and they even had the "private sector "throw in" Facebook, other social networks, and the revolutionary search engine Google. Oh, forgot video surveillance, body scanners and such. Oh, and the real big one, they control our money and credit, oh, and our food supply.

So they see us, hear us, read us, track us, and watch us, along with gruesome anti riot gear and techniques. So perhaps after total collapse, but not before. And after a military coup, there will be no representation of the people after the suspension of habeas corpus, but we will still pay our taxes.... http://www.usconstitution.net/xconst_A1Sec9.html

All the technology you could ever want is now available to pull this off. Makes 1984 look like a walk in the park in my opinion.

JO-Atlanta

Saddly Jo-Atlanta you are so right.
I always laugh when I hear people talking about the right to bear arms when even on TV you can see shows about the latest crowd control technology being researched and implemented. There are ways of keeping people back by directing extreme heat, so they can't bear to move any closer. (micro-wave?)
There's also extreme sound to keep people from moving forward. They don't have to use lethal force to stop a demonstration.
I think that's really why people don't take to the streets like they did during the Viet Nam war. They just know it's going to be a losing battle and there will be the devil to pay.

"Obama seems like the kind of person who is acutely aware of class issues and imbalances. I think you just overestimate what one person can do to reform things, even the POTUS, especially in only 2 years. When I look at the laws passed under Obama thus far, it would seem to me that many were aimed at helping the middle class, e.g. student loan reform, health care reform, etc."

ABSOLUTELY! It is the well-funded, Goebbels-style propagandizing by TPTB that makes so many people take a stand AGAINST their own self-interest. Astounding, but it is just Marketing 101.

If it is within the power of the president to confiscate gold,why is it not within his power to confiscate $114 billion in bonuses on wall street from the thieves that generated it because of extraordinary effort to screw the public?Why should they,besides getting their undeserved salary,be allowed to encourage this criminal activity by paying "attaboy"bonuses?

I finished reading the lovely Witch of Hebron, I enjoyed it very much. The beginning is a bit heavy, with the author's voice being overly loud reciting the preceding events happened in the Word Made by Hand, but after 20 pages or so, the Witch comes to live and flows nicely. The author's voice is still overly strong in some characters for my liking but it does not spoil the novel. And the best thing - you can continue the story indefinitely.

Interesting, the "magic" portion of the novel is very much a character on its own - Jim surely has a great sense of the trends.

And I loved all the herbal long-forgotten recipes, will research some of them further.

I wish I could buy A Christmas Orphan directly from Jim's website via PayPal, it is very easy to setup, I am surprised he has not done so already. Dmitry Orlov has published all his blogs as a collection of essays in on ebook which he sells to his subscribers for $20 via PayPal. A slightly cheaper PDF version of the Orphan would probably sell like cupcakes too. Orlov has 1600 readers, how many does Jim have I wonder :-)

Till next Monday everyone.

Those are some very chilling figures on World human populations and carrying capacity, Bean.
They look "intuitively" correct to me; would you mind posting their source.

The bottom line is that for world populations to *even come close* to US levels of prosperity - world populations have already been exceeded by considerable margins.

And your last figure, concerning continental African levels of prosperity for the Globe - should scare the pants (or burqua, or skirt) off of anyone -

"if the whole world had the same prosperity level as northeast Africa, the maximum population would be 40 billion (US at 1.8 billion)."

We know the quote, "Man is born but to die;"

- But this is a fate worse than death, IMHO, for those 40 billion - and sadly, looking at other figures - for anything much above the 1 Billion that the planet might realistically support post peak.

jeez the bellyachin' is really tiresome. anyway, for those commenters that have some cajones to actually lift their little finger & grow *some* of their own food, down here in Brazil I can get you a nice little lot of land, you'll grow yer own bananas, cane, mangoes, chickens/eggs, plus a cow or goat if you'd like, plus palm trees for palm hearts. you'll have plenty to eat and the stuff grows itself mostly. solve your mostly imaginary food problems, plus you can easily sell the bulk of your production with no interference from Uncle Sam. freedom's awesome, it´d be nice if it were legal in the US. come on down y'all, folks here is real nice and simple.

here's your payback, price to you from free food you grow on your property, no taxes:

cane - $1.25 per stalk
bananas - $1.40 a dozen
eggs - $1.75 a dozen
palm heart - $2 per pound
assorted fruits - $0.35 to $1 a pound depending

you'll get 1-2 harvests per year plus lots of fellowship with nice folks


expat welles

"I'm the 2nd mouse. I hope I'm right and the vat turns to butter. I don't claim to be right - it's the way I think, based on my experience." -BTB

Beans,
No claims here either. Have you had much experience being in 3rd world countries? Since I have, this is my experiential perspective; so I see things shaking out as rigorously non-techno/non-gagetry. I'm not mouse #1 either (at least, not by choice, but perhaps by chance), but I see butter-churning as a pretty low-tech exercise, so, there ya go!

I guess every opinion is an amalgam of our lifetime ramblings. (Mmmm, I'll amend that to THOUGHTFUL people like yourself. ;o) Crackers fer Christ seem to be IGNORING their life experiences in favor of rapturous fantasy and something-for-nothing scammery. )


"So you're saying that the big bad evil socialist government forced the poor old mega-banks and corporations at gunpoint to take trillions of dollars in zero interest loans that they didn't actually want or need."

Yes you simple fuck. That is exactly what I am saying. As usual you enter into the "conversation" without knowing what the fuck you are talking about. Below you will find one of countless stories (if you ever bothered to study a subject you would know how covered this issue was at the time) this one filed by the Associated Press:


updated 5/14/2009 5:02:22 PM ET

"NEW YORK — The chief executives of the nine largest U.S. banks had no choice but to accept capital infusions from the Treasury Department in October, government documents have confirmed.

Obtained and released by Judicial Watch, a nonpartisan educational foundation, the documents revealed "talking points" used by former Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson during the Oct. 13 meeting between federal officials and the executives that stressed the investments would be required "in any circumstance," whether the banks found them appealing or not.

Paulson also told the bankers it would not be prudent to opt out of the program because doing so "would leave you vulnerable and exposed."

It's no secret that some of the banks had to be pressured to participate in the program, with several bank CEOs saying they had been strongly encouraged to take the funds. But the documents are the first proof of the government's insistence.
"These documents show our government exercising unrestrained power over the private sector," said Judicial Watch President Tom Fitton in a statement."


I asked you before. Go away. Spend a little time and develop some of your theories (whatever the fuck they may be because frankly, other than taking a stupid point-of-view for the sake of taking a stupid point-of-view, I have no idea what your theories actually are) and do so based on some pertinent FACTS.

"Capitalism says nothing about equitable or fair distribution of money..."

And that is because that that very thought is LAUGHABLE. A moronic, exercise in mental masturbation of imbeciles.

Still quoting from Bean's figures:

"If the entire world was to have the same standard of living as the US with regard to our health, nutrition and freedom, the maximum population is 2 billion (less than 1/3rd of the present world pop. of 6.8 bllion). That implies a maximum US population of under 100 million."

Now, some are calling present trends a conspiracy at the highest levels of TPTB - to engineer a US collapse deliberately.

I disagree. I think our huge US population increase has the bumbling fingerprints of "The Decider" all over it.

Look at the following figures - and look at the dates.

We are looking at the work of a man and an administration simply applying these *wise* words:

"Make the pie higher!"
==============
"Legal immigration to the U.S. increased from 250,000 in the 1930s, to 2.5 million in the 1950s, to 4.5 million in the 1970s, and to 7.3 million in the 1980s, before resting at about 10 million in the 1990s.[52] Since 2000, legal immigrants to the United States number approximately 1,000,000 per year.... Legal immigrants to the United States now are at their highest level ever, at just over 37,000,000 legal immigrants. Illegal immigration may be as high as 1,500,000 per year with a net of at least 700,000 illegal immigrants arriving every year"
==============
Looks like approaching doom to me - and I'm a pragmatic optimist, and open to suggestions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_the_United_States

"Those are some very chilling figures on World human populations and carrying capacity, Bean." -PoC

I agree. It also brings up a point that has chafed at me for quite some time: the concept/paradigm of "carrying capacity".

Would your partner prefer that you, a.) Lived with them, or, b.) Used them.

Think about that. "Carrying capacity" implies USAGE. That's not just word-play, that's real application. Now that may be just dandy with the bible-bangers (dominion and all that horseshit), but the implicit lack of respect for ones' life-support system is more than a little insane. That mind-set had better go away or extinction [of our species and a lot of others'] is assured.

The end is near. It is the same as when Uncle Dick has hotels all along Marvin Gardens, Pacific, and Boardwalk. Everyone plays it out in a bored fashion, and then all the money gets redistributed and America starts fresh. Suddenly, everyone is excited again, and ready to participate. Oh shit, that's socialism. Never mind, the rich get everything. God bless America.

"If it is within the power of the president to confiscate gold,why is it not within his power to confiscate $114 billion in bonuses on wall street from the thieves that generated it because of extraordinary effort to screw the public?" -Fun.

Okay, now just who was it that supplied vast mountains of dough to Obama's presidential campaign coffers? Hmmmm, somebody remind me, I can't remember...

And just who was ushered into the inner sanctums of Obama's circle of advisors? Geez, guess I'm an American, 'cause I don't remember... somebody hand me the Cheezy-snarfs; the game's comin' on the flatscreen...

...advisers...

Wow! All that stuff. We're all impressed, I'm sure.

Want some advice? For your own good keep your mouth shut about what you own. You are a minnow in a shark tank and, if it suits them, the sharks will take what you've got, rip your life out from under you, eat your bones and shit you out.

Whether or not you realize it what happens to you in life has a really big component of blind luck. It isn't a question of if something nasty happens to you but rather when.

Like you I was cocky. Nothing bad would happen to me, nosirree. I was smarter/luckier than everyone else. I was special, sure I was. Hah.

Look around if you can bother. Maybe you'll notice that people are just one fuckup from the unemployment line, one long bout of unemployment from divorce and bankruptcy, and one bout of bad health from destitution and maybe homelessness.

Think it can't happen to you? Wake up pal.

Read Antimatter's post Dec 13 12:44. A really sad story. Many, many like him. Pray your own luck holds out.

The posts that you think are hilarious are posts from people that, IMO, have some foresight, who watch and think about what goes on in the world or who've seen the shitty side of people and events. In my view, if you have even a small knowledge of history or experience in this world you wouldn't be so dismissive. Ever heard of World War One, the Great Depression, World War Two, the Holocaust, the Korean War, Vietnam, Pol Pot? Really, seriously rotten stuff.

And do not flaunt your wealth and good fortune. It's bad form and, I'm telling you my friend, you are tempting fate.

PS My wife and I made it to retirement financially intact. And after one bad cancer scare and major surgery for my wife we're physically intact. But I never take anything for granted. It can all be snatched away in a blink of an eye.

"Meanwhile, in the real world, this has been one of the best years ever for me. I bought the car of my dreams (a new M3 -- 15 mpg, seats two and a bag of groceries)..."

Hey numb-nuts,

M3's seat 4. Perhaps not comfortably, but they do possess back seats.

Assange has just been granted bail (about $300k plus)and is staying in a mansion outside of London. Hope they outfit him in some bullet-proof jammies.

How very nice for you, dear! I'm sure your mommy is soooo proud. Now be a good little buy and STFU! smartass!

I don't know the bit about the "revolution" - there has to be some real pain first.

I like some of the posts - staying on topic about energy economy. FWIW - the news of the day regarding PO is that deep water harvesting has never materialized as EIA projections of 2008/9 suggested.

Essentially this means many of the more conservative prognosticators will soon be revising the "far off" tragedies of 2020-2025 - to a fast approaching 2015-2018.

However, we really never ,know what natural market conditions are because that is all orchestrated artificially for Wall Street gains.

The big elephant in the way of righteous market forecasting is understanding the nature of discretionary consumption.

So far there has yet to be a modern Jimmy Carter of any portent. And even among the CF Nation, no one broaches the subject of "value systems" - and how and when we determine Grandma's heating fuel is more important than Jack Ass's SUV tripping.

When we get there, and more than a few people Clusterfuck to consensus - there come's the revolution.


"Now be a good little buy and ..." Freudian slip..."be a good little a-hole."

Agree with Cash on this one. "James", with his $850K house and little trinkets, doesn't realize he's just a gnat on a bull's balls to the big boys. Yes, "James", Karma is a super bitch, incredibly mean who gives with one hand, but takes with two. Don't fuck with her....TOO LATE! YA JUST DID!

I bought the car of my dreams (a new M3 -- 15 mpg, seats two and a bag of groceries):

We'll probably see this guy sitting in a gas line, circa 1979, sometime in the next decade or so. Or, he can pay someone to gas it for him.

James, get real. I have a bunch of wealth, an M Coupe, three homes, etc. But none of this stuff means squat in the "real world".

Yeah I remember the Unocal thing. The Chinese are sniffing around up here in the Alberta oil sands and Saskatchewan potash.

The way that I see it is this: you can come up with what sounds like wildly creative and improbable scenarios for the future and, when it comes, actual events always end up more wildly creative and improbable than your scenarios.

Imagine that you're a German living in the 1880s or 1890s. Imagine someone predicting to you that by 1950 Germany will have fought two massive wars where flying machines would destroy entire cities where single bombs would incinerate and vapourize square miles, where European Jewry would be exterminated, where there would be radios and television, where the Hapsburg, Ottoman, British Empires all would be put in their graves. National Socialism? A corporal as dictator? Worldwide Communism? You wouldn't believe it was possible.

Imagine from the perspective of 1950 if someone were to tell you about the hippies of 1970, the civil rights, women's rights and sexual revolutions, the antiwar movement, Janis Joplin, Jimi Hendrix, the Beatles, the Rolling Stones, the space race, the moon landing.

Imagine from the perspective of 1970 if someone predicted the end of communism as a global ideology by 1990, the dissolution of the Soviet Union, the admission of Eastern bloc countries in NATO.

All of this stuff would have sounded wild. No matter how crazy the ramblings on this website are they are not crazy enough.

So will the west coast be Chinese a protectorate? Will English become an offical language of China? Will Mandarin become an official language of the US? Not remotely creative enough in my opinion.

Hi MM,

I think James is a young feller. Hasn't yet seen or maybe doesn't yet know that, as you say, Karma is a super bitch. When life shits on you it really shits on you.

When you're young or in good health you really don't "get" this business about your health being everything. When they found that nasty little thingy in my wife's colon I barely slept during the two months it took to get the surgery done (they took out a foot of her colon and a piece of small intestine) and then get the all clear from the pathology lab.

And then on top of it she had a post surgical infection that took more hospital visits, 6 weeks of sickness and daily visits by a nurse to clean the wound and re-pack it. Jesus H Christ it was miserable. Even if in the end it turned out OK.

Or maybe James is an older guy and happens to be one dumb fuck who just stayed lucky. I don't begrudge his luck but laughing at other people is bad, bad, bad.

"Maybe RP will choke on a pretzel."

God forbid.

messianicdruid,
I wasn't saying I hope so, I was implying he might be done away with--in jest of course!
Oh, and I should have said a Cheese-tos

Abfab post again this week (as riots roll out over Europe) Mr. Kunstler...

And with such a Deustch hinting of past-times-a-surname, and you being so savvy enough to know that we’re moving fast forward toward, a soooo totally back to the future set of lifestyle choices, thought you might like to be reminded of this...

A great Weimar art piece by George Grosz titled ‘The Pillars of Society’

http://www.ulike.net/The_Pillars_of_Society

And what do we see when we study this painting in close detail?

In the front the Nazi (dare I say gung-ho republican type) followed by two bourgeoisies one a bankster for sure (whom finances/supports the regime)....topped off by the corrupt priest, with in the background the death dealing murderous military...

(This was painted back in 1926, interesting coincidence... eh?)

And the best part is just how much steaming sh#t-n-excrement is present in this painting, so twould seem Herr Grosz was not oblivious to his nations predicament...

Much like you I guess?

And we all know what happened a few decades later, don’t we... *sniggers*

Meanwhile what do we get as a Turner Prize winner this year, some folky sound sculptures.... nice!

(Dumb and dumber will be the epitaph of our time)

Keep up the great work Jim....

Be seeing you...

Brings to mind the old saying, "That which does not kill you makes you stronger." I'm glad you and your wife made it through that horrible ordeal. I've fought medical battles, financial battles, you name it...none on Afghanistan. Which brings to mind the recent departure of Mr. Holbrooke, the Chief envoy to Afghanistan. His last words were, "You've got to stop this war in Afghanistan." Just wondering if the amerikan press will report on that. These days I'm getting 90% of my news from Pravda, the Guardian, anthing but MSM (less than 10%).

I know I'm all over the place today in my comments. Trying VERY hard not to take a pain pill following routine oral surgery (not routine for me, but...)

"I wasn't saying I hope so, I was implying he might be done away with--in jest of course!"

I do not wish to put my hope in men, but I pray for his safety. I wasn't being critical of you, it's just that I see { too } few standing in the gap.

Yeccch I hate the dentist. Take it easy and heal.

Bay Arryan? I'm not in San Francisco - never lived there.

Conservative? Where I have ever said that? I'm a Fascist - which includes elements of what is known as Conservatism and what is known as Liberalism. Since I'm an American Fascist, I would lean more towards our model of self reliance as opposed to the European model. That being said, I don't believe in the Tea Party very much. If you change one big thing - like the Welfare State - you have to change everyhthing to compensate for its loss. Are these people ready to take care of their sick relatives? Are they ready to tithe as Christians are supposed to do? Tithing means giving to charity one tenth of your income. Traditionally, this would be given to your Church so they could take care of the local indigents wo didn't have family to take them in. This whole Tradition has been conveniently forgotten by not only the Statists, but the would be reformers. The only people I've seen talking about it are the Radical (back to basics) Calvinists. You can go to the Reformation Bookstore to find out more. Don't care for their Theology, but they got the social stuff down. Same with the Mormons - silly Theology, but real American practical genius at the nuts and bolts of living. Glenn Beck is teaching this and that makes him superior to the vast majority of the Tea Party crowd. He also is deeply learned in many aspects of the Conspiracy. Of course, he is on Fox News and can't mention the Jewish side of it at all.

"Bay Arryan? I'm not in San Francisco - never lived there."

Vlad, if you'll go back and take a look you'll see that the "Bay Arryan" was the arrogant jackass with the M3 who posted immediately prior to my post to you. That was not intended as a reference to you, Vlad - it is kinda funny, though if you think about it - and if you have a sense of humor. ;-)

To me it's pretty funny - that you would think I just *made up* a name for you out of thin air AND moved you to San Francisco, to boot! ROFLMAO - right now - which makes it hard to type, BTW.

Truth is always in the middle, Vlad.
And there is a lot of honest to God truth in what you just posted. (That's not to say I'm ever going to be in 100% agreement.)

You are making sense - more and more - to me - others have commented on this phenomenon, too.

This means:
1. You've worn us down - unlikely
2. Times are so hard I've turned fascist myself
3. You've taken some of the hard edges off your thoughts - leaving some very useful truth - now more exposed and visible.

I've done the same thing with my thoughts, on CFN and elsewhere - lately.

Which is why I keeping posting and thrashing around mentally with you - and many others on here.

If you stop growing (thinking) you start dying!

Don't want that to happen, now do we? ;)

Creativity? The Chinese taking over part of the US? That's conceivable but we can't even talk about expelling illegals. Cash, you amaze me as always. You would rather the West die than give up your liberal religion of nice-guy-ism. As I learned a long time ago - nice people are often quite ruthless and not very nice at all. People don't see it because like Obama you hide it underneath a mask of gentility. Your greatest weapon is the fait accompli - what's done is done. Learn to live with it - it can't be undone, etc. Counsels of death.
The Path of Truth, the Path of the Sun is radically opposed to all such Lunar capitulations and deceptions. We will be absorbed? No, like swallowing a live ferret we will gnaw our way of this alien social body. The True West is NOT the multicultural mess that you love so much. Trying to teach Haitians Calculus - Nonsense. Bringing Somali kids to the Symphony - Grotesque. South Asians in the Chamber of Commerce - they wont discriminate in favor of their own now will they? At least you know the Chinese are dangerous - if you only understood the Genetic Basis of Culture and the genetic war that is being waged on the West - but alas, you are blind.

OK - maybe some of those hard edges are still there

Ok based on that - make the existential choice. How low do want the United States to go to accomodate the rest of the world. Do you want us to take in a billion people so we can be equal with Africa? You don't seem to have thought it through yet. Instead you give us things like my dad was an immigrant so immigration is good. I hope you realize that doesn't cut it. My Dad was too. I'm glad he got in and I'm here. So what? Is it unfair we are here and most of the world is not? What a fatal logic. Life is unfair. We drew some good cards. Be grateful and protect what we have for posterity. Instead people want to give the country back to the Indians or give it away to South Asians, Muslims, and Mexicans. Hint: these groups will fight tooth and nail for it once we are out of the picture.

As for the Indians: we conquered them as was necessary to have a Nation here. One cannot in good faith (existentialism again) reside here and enjoy the good life and simultaneously bemoan our conquest. It stinks of hypocrisy. We didn't exterminate them and we have given the Indians some privledges such as increased hunting and fishing rights for those who want a traditional lifestyle and casino rights for those who don't. It's not perfect but it's better than we did last century. Now of course they want everything just lie the rest of the minorities. The answer is and must be NO. And no more apologies.

Go to a Black Church. Surprise them. Bring your hidden microphone. Post the results here. I find it hilarious several groups of Blacks make a practice of descending on White Churches to shock and show up the racists meanwhile bloody S.A style politics are being preached back at the base.

Mmmm... I guess I find it disappointing in some vague way that I am not a citizen of an advanced society that thinks far into the future, at least a million years, and even that is a mere blink of an eye in geological time. I'm a crusty pessimist who firmly believes that Industrial Civilization is the biggest pyramid scheme ever conceived. But some great minds already beat me to that insight. There was of course MK Hubbert. And also Fred Hoyle who said that any intelligent species on a planet only gets one chance to create a sustainable advanced civilization. And Enrico Fermi mused that the reason aliens haven't contacted us is because there aren't any advanced civilizations out there because they all blew it. As you say most people can't think twenty years ahead. To me this is the same thing as saying Homo Sapiens are in the process of becoming a failed species. Plundering valuable minerals to create "shareholder value" is the path to civilizational failure. You can rationalize it any way you want. I simply conclude that humans are very dim witted creatures collectively speaking. I live in the 51st state. We are going to freeze in the dark up here after peak oil.

Today's number one golden oldie hit in CF Land is dedicated to John Boehner, 1962's "Big Girls Don't Cry".

"We have, or soon will have, exhausted the necessary physical prerequisites so far as this planet is concerned. With coal gone, oil gone, high-grade metallic ores gone, no species however competent can make the long climb from primitive conditions to high-level technology. This is a one-shot affair. If we fail, this planetary system fails so far as intelligence is concerned. The same will be true of other planetary systems. On each of them there will be one chance, and one chance only."

Fred Hoyle, cosmologist, 1964.

"The moon landing may be our Great Pyramid, an accomplishment never to be equaled."

Alan Cromer, professor of physics, 1993

"Tithing means giving to charity one tenth of your income."

No it does not. It means bringing 1/10 of your edible produce (nowhere is it monetary income) to a storehouse to be distributed to the poor among us.

TOTALLY OFF TOPIC - but I can't help myself

Here's the deal. I'm sitting here watching CNBC.

Please enunciate clearly and out loud the word: BANK

Now, given what you just heard yourself say, how do you imagine NANK would be pronounced if it was a word? Unlikely it would be pronounced NACK, no?

Now, note that our Fed Chairman's last name is BERE.

And so I ask, why - for JEEZUS H FUCKING CHRIST'S SAKE - does 1 out of 10 or 20 highly educated professional financial talking heads pronounce the Fed Chief's name as BERNACKE?

I must have a reasonable answer to this question or I'll lose my freaking mind!!

Part of sentence above got clipped off somehow. It should be:

Now, note that our Fed Chairman's last name is BERNANKE.

Jim,

Interesting, humorous and inventively-written post, as usual. It's difficult to say what lies ahead for the United States in the months and years to come, and most likely, it will look nothing like the scenario you've described (history has a way of surprising us), but I enjoy the fact that you are one of the only American voices I trust to broach the subject with honest, razor-sharp intellect and insight.

The tax bill fiasco was a disappointment for me. I would love to see a traditional tax-structure in place for our country (pre-Bush era), a drastic reduction in military and road-building efforts, tax-incentives to bring some industry back to the states, and large investments in dense building, public transit, train travel and small-scale farming. I really do believe we still have the capability to return to an honest, human-scale lifestyle without too much trouble, but we have to act now.

One can hope, anyway.

Yes, but wasn't Paulson the former CEO of Goldman-Sachs, or some such position before becoming Treasury Secretary? So who the fuck really makes up the government and who really are the bankers? When two bodies are entwined together under the covers in a bed, can you tell who's who?

Vlad, old man, don't you know me better than that by now?

I've ranted a hundred times about how multiculturalism is something that cannot work and should not be contemplated. Up here we can't even run a bilingual, bicultural country. A multicultural country is a fool's errand that will end in mess and disaster.

I'm not blind. I say what I say because of what I've seen. As for race being the basis of culture that just doesn't square with what I've seen.

Like I said before, a buddy of mine is Somali. I've broken bread with him many times. A good fella, devout Muslim, university educated in the US, highly skilled and a good family man.

Our last Governor General was a black woman from Haiti, immigrated here a long time ago, hugely popular, very effective, gave a great barn burner of an inaugural speech, visited our boys in Afghanistan and met their coffins at a Canuck airforce base with their families. She was fine by me.

My point about the US being partially swallowed is just that we can't imagine the future. No matter how wild our imaginings reality will be wilder.


A reasonable answer to why perhaps is sloth and indifference.

But given that Bernanke is about as easy to say right as it is to say wrong maybe sloth and indifference is unreasonable and inadequate. Beats me.

Talking about sloth and indifference.: you know what always really frosted my cake? When I would ask someone at work why are we doing something the way we're doing it and I'd suggest something different and I'd get the answer "well, we've always done it this way". So some ding dong started doing something ass backward five years ago and everyone just keeps doing it?

Or when some clerk would tell me "I just want a job I can forget about at 5 o'clock". OK well, you're right, we don't pay much. But then we don't ask much either, just that you have your brain fully in gear when you're here. And they pay 90% less in Mumbai and get 50% more work. So I leave it to you.

Or when getting work out of some dept was like pulling teeth because of all the people on various leaves. They avail themselves of every leave known to man: mat leave, compassionate leave, parental leave, sick leave, stress leave, this leave, that leave, the other leave and when the few remaining have to bust their asses because so many people are on various leaves then the bosses start thinking fuck it move it all to India. Which I saw happen. OK I'm done.


You people are hilarious! The hate! The venom! The vitriol! Look, I'm going to be serious now for just a moment before I get back to taunting you low-lifes.

Everyone, I mean every human walking the earth, has some weakness lurking deep down in their genes, waiting to fell them when their time comes. I already know what I have waiting for me and, God willing, how long I've got until it hits.

But right now, I'm a young guy, with a ton of degrees and a lot of money to spend living life to the max. And there's no way in hell I'm going to spend it sitting in a dark cabin burning firewood and growing beans! Suckas!

--The Bay Aryaan

I know you're just having us on with this wankery (tm MM), but I'll play...

"I already know what I have waiting for me and, God willing, how long I've got until it hits."

Ohh, ohh, let me guess! It wouldn't be incurable terminal syphilis by any chance would it? A fine way to go. Have fun!

Hey Solar Guy, good information on the solar radiation heat. Are you using this now? Would it work in North Texas? Could a top notch do-it-your-selfer install the pex tubing and solar thermal collector? I need more details.

E

They avail themselves of every leave known to man: mat leave, compassionate leave, parental leave, sick leave, stress leave, this leave, that leave, the other leave
=========

And then along came Kwanzaa which Asoka has (probably) taken off for every year since it was invented by a Jersy City cabbie ;o) or whomever.

and I'd get the answer "well, we've always done it this way".
========

Apropos, there's an old tale I heard in the military (no idea if it has any basis in fact) about the "Fly Paper Report." Seems some young soldier in a Jr Clerk position gets the idea to count the flies stuck to the fly paper dangling from the cealing. He dreams up an official looking report of the count and begins to send this report once each month to his higher-ups at Headquarters. Then after six months he quits sending it. Shortly thereafter a lieutenant at HQ is on the horn demanding to know "WHERE THE HELL IS YOUR FLYPAPER REPORT??"

"with a ton of degrees and a lot of money to spend living life to the max"

And you're obviously pretty sad and insecure to come and brag about it on the comments section of someone else's blog.

In fact, I'm kinda seriously doubting the truth of anything you write. Sounds like bullshit to me.

"The hate! The venom! The vitriol! Look, I'm going to be serious now for just a moment before I get back to taunting you low-lifes."

So what you're saying is that everyone else is hateful.

And then you say you're going to continue to troll the "low-lifes" here.

Hmm, somewhat ironic, I'd say.

zsa,

Thanks for the Judicial Watch story. That's quite interesting.

Thought one short set of documents does not prove that this is the end of the story.

For one, you it doesn't mention the trillions of dollars in additional loans given to banks and corporations. The bailout was just the beginning.

Even if were the case that this was a 100% coercive situation (which seems highly unlikely), it changes almost nothing, because the Federal Reserve is a private entity run by all the major banks. Most of the people at the Fed and the Treasury Dept. come straight out of the private financial industry.

So in essence, the CEO of the Fed funneled money to the divisions of the corporation. Whether or not the divisions wanted this money or had to be forced or convinced to take it is a bit irrelevant. It happened, and the banks benefited. There is not all that much separation between the public and private banking realms.

Should there be? Should the Fed get audited? Should these kinds of gifts/loans/deals-you-can't-refuse not happen? Should large banks be split into smaller, more manageable pieces or be allowed to fail? etc.

I don't know. Maybe. It is far more complicated than just calling something wrong or evil.

I'm with you that this whole situation is a bit fucked-up and contrary to how one would think the private banking system should function in a take-the-red-pill kind of way.

But, hey, I'm not calling the shots. I'm more interested in finding out how things work. I'll let other people be the judge of whether these things are right or wrong.

To me, it seems that our system requires these kinds of interventions by the Fed to keep from imploding. Am I off there? Would everything be just fine here if the Fed did a "hands off" and let the banks and corporations stand on their own merits/books/finances?

I seriously fucking doubt it.

Oh and I believe it is extremely naive to think that Ben Bernanke is some kind of socialist ogre raging against the private sector. The leadership at the Fed comes right out of the big banks into government and they function more as moles for corporate interests than as government employees.

In large part, there IS virtually no separation between private sector and government at the highest levels of banking. The trillions of dollars in bank stimulus certainly suggest this.

During independent Vermont Senator Sanders' long address on Friday he read many letters from constituents that were much like the Price Chopper conversation. I couldn't help noticing the underlying Peak Oil theme. These Vermonters we're appealing to their senator for help with fuel oil and gas prices that are becoming unmanageable in their harsh economic and natural environment.

The "Bad Deal" speech transcript can be found here:

http://sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/news/?id=e35eddb4-0d83-4c55-92c0-e448c55526ff

"The leadership at the Fed comes right out of the big banks into government and they function more as moles for corporate interests than as government employees."

The fed is a collection of private corporate banks, that only have a government-y sounding name. So your analysis seems pretty reasonable to me!

Lurking for a bit... Vlad, you ignorant slut! You really think the color of skin matters? I love black people, or African-Americans, or whatever! Same to you, JHK! IF there is any element of this society that will ignite the revolution, they are the ONES, and rightfully so! Fuck you, Vlad! What do you do besides sit around and masturbate to the monologues of the right wing "intelligentsia"... lol. It might all end tomorrow, but I will NOT die at the foot of the cross of the British royalty. What a fucking moron! Pathetic! Embarrassing! Infantile! Stoopid! You must be one of the tattooed, pierced idiots! Moving forward, I like JHK, but he is ONE dude. Might be right. Might be wrong. Whoopteedoo :)

Hey Vlad... wouldn't mind me some more of that black booty either... what's the matter, honey?... can't get any? Are you too "little"... rofl!

Turk, you are shameless and annoying. You made a statement and TZA ably refuted it. Now you are dragging red herrings every which way across the subject trying to bullshit your way to at least a draw. This is your routine M.O.

And so I ask, why - for JEEZUS H FUCKING CHRIST'S SAKE - does 1 out of 10 or 20 highly educated professional financial talking heads pronounce the Fed Chief's name as BERNACKE?

I must have a reasonable answer to this question or I'll lose my freaking mind!!

-------------

Same reason that I'm thrilled to death that after 20 fucking years we finally have a President who can pronounce NUCLEAR!!!

Say it with me kids...

NOO - CLEE - ER

not...

NOOK - U - LAR

Don't they have access to a damn speech therapist in the White House?

I just love all this waxing over the “good people of color”. It reminds me of back in the day when condescending white assholes would utter the ‘ he’s a credit to his race’ refrain.

As far as Vlad’s fantasy of a racially delineated former United States, I can only say that any dividing going on will be done strictly along economic lines. So never mind the ‘Great White North’, Vlad; you’ll be lucky to get a job shoveling poop in Michael Vick’s dog pen.

I just love all this waxing over the 'good people of color'. It reminds me of back in the day when condescending white assholes would utter the ‘ he’s a credit to his race’ refrain.

As far as Vlad’s fantasy of a racially delineated former United States, I can only say that any dividing going on will be done strictly along economic lines. So never mind the ‘Great White North’, Vlad; you’ll be lucky to get a job shoveling poop in Michael Vick’s dog pen.

What I really think is that the "they made me do it" defense is a cover-up.

The banks are a cartel, and the Fed is at the head of that cartel.

A couple pieces of paper that say "the big bad Fed made us take all this money" does not change this.

Yeah, the bailouts were completely forced down the throats of every other large bank and corporation in America, as well as a number of foreign banks and corporations.

http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/trillions-in-secret-fed-bailouts-for-global-corporations-and-foreign-banks-has-the-federal-reserve-become-a-completely-unaccountable-global-bailout-machine

But, but, they MADE the banks and multinational corporations take trillions of free dollars.

If you believe that, you're a SUCKER.

"Turk, you are shameless and annoying. You made a statement and TZA ably refuted it. Now you are dragging red herrings every which way across the subject trying to bullshit your way to at least a draw. This is your routine M.O."

Okay, I'll admit it.

Ben Bernanke actually prays to an effigy of Stalin every night. He's trying to seize the means of production and get the revolution started. It's like an Ayn Rand novel, only real.

All these innocent, well-capitalized, solvent banks and corporations were forced to take $3 trillion in 0.25% loans they didn't want or need (no, no, please no more free money, Mr. Bernanke!).

Ben forced them to eat that motherfucking porridge, or they'd go to bed without any desert. Or he'd spank them. Or something.

And you're an intelligent reasonable person who is right about everything...you and your little pissant friend tzatza dabore.

Happy now?

http://money.cnn.com/2010/12/01/news/economy/fed_reserve_data_release/index.htm

"The Wall Street firm that received the most assistance was Merrill Lynch, which received $2.1 trillion, spread across 226 loans."

"Citigroup (C, Fortune 500), which ended up with a majority of its shares owned by the Treasury Department due to a separate federal bailout, was No. 2 on the list with 279 loans totaling $2 trillion. Morgan Stanley (MS, Fortune 500) was third with $1.9 trillion coming from 212 loans."

"As we have previously disclosed, Morgan Stanley utilized some of the Federal Reserve's emergency lending facilities during a time of immense financial turmoil throughout the banking sector and the broader market," Morgan Stanley said in a statement Wednesday. "The Fed's actions were timely and critical, and we commend them for providing liquidity and stabilizing the financial system during that period.''

--

So you're saying the Fed forced Morgan Stanley to take out 212 separate loans?

Pardon me while I go LMAO.

This is good reading on the bailout.

http://www.federalreserve.gov/newsevents/reform_transaction.htm

So long and thanks for all the fish.


Cash said:

"And do not flaunt your wealth and good fortune. It's bad form and, I'm telling you my friend, you are tempting fate."
***************************************************

And you're right that we're all just one
fuckup away from disaster. I knew a guy
years ago who was a trust fund baby just
waiting for his Mom to die to get his
inheritance. She died. He got his
inheritance. And promptly died six months
later of throat cancer ... likely from
heavy smoking. He was 55.

I, too, find these provocateurs who rub their
GOOD fortune in people's faces. It's hard
enough to stand a sore loser but sore WINNERS
arouse animal spirits. They have the same
type of God complex as Mr. Robinson in "The
Graduate" (who whispered into Dustin Hoffman's
ear ... "Young man, I have only one word for
you ... plastics!!").

Smugness not only has an appearance that makes
you want to punch it in the nose, it is also
a deluded mental state. We've all seen how
a run of good luck makes people feel "invincible".
They anoint themselves lesser gods. It's as old
as the human race itself.

Moreover, such people tend to be the most
hysterical and anti-social when a severe
upheaval undoes their largesse in the
twinkling of an eye. And, in a sense,
it's the LUCKY ones who get knocked on
their asses when "the best laid plans of
mice and men" go astray for them.

God complexes not only look bad on their
possessors, they also lay the preconditions
for future misfortune. In my opinion, that's
why the Kondratieff cycle is roughly two
generations: One generation strives and makes
all the money and the spoilt, conceited
generation that follows pisses it away.

E.

You talking to me? :) Well I like most folks... Asians, blacks, Latinos, even whitey. Of course, hell is people, too. But, let there be NO DOUBT that white men, and I am one, have caused me as much grief as white ladies! Perhaps the comment was a bit patronizing, but the point was Vlad is a moron. He thinks he's bright, and he evidently studies quite a bit, but in the end is just as revolting as the rest of us.

Another Titanic Metaphor

We're sinking as a country.
We may take the rest of the planet down with us.
We know where the leak is.

We argue about whether humans REALLY? cause global warming - (that's one deck chair to arrange)

We argue about intractable unemployment and declining wages in the US - (another deck chair)

Meanwhile - we walk down below decks - and we see one BIG leak that would be easy to fix.

But the repair crews are fighting and not working.

The conservative big business repair crew wants competition for ever lower wages.

The liberal wackadoo repair crew wants to "do the right thing" or "increase liberal voting rolls"

Meanwhile - the Decider is gone off the Bridge - thank God (god?)
But this "sucker" could still go down.

Because the leak continues at 1,200,000 MINIMUM per year.

Any of you care to take a shot at interpreting some of this symbolism?

Vlad just gets all his opinions from books. He is apparently a prolific reader, and endlessly quotes from all sorts of political screed, and yet clearly has never personally experienced any sort of hardship or hard work himself. It is easy to espouse judgmental ideas when you have never had to live them. :)

Oh, and James is obviously making up his story just to get you all upset. (I mean, someone lied about something on the Internet? Really? Noooo, that never happens...)

Q - you're going to have to be more specific.

"Turk, you are shameless and annoying. You made a statement and TZA ably refuted it."

Turkle has said a LOT of stuff over the past 2 weeks. His accuracy rate is 90% or better.

Would you care to point out the statement.

Only TZA is trying to stand by the ludicrous statement (paraphrased) "ON THIS WEBSITE I AM ALWAYS CORRECT..."

GREAT post, E!

"that's why the Kondratieff cycle is roughly two
generations:"

Rags - to riches - to rags - In three generations.

I've been thinking about this a lot myself. It is actually something that I have warned my sons about as they have grown into men.

And I am beginning to wonder if we are not seeing this play out at the National Level.

Or even at the level of Human Civilization on Earth?


Vlad - what drives your spirit at its deepest level?

Because it comes across to me as fear, oftentimes.

Take this, for example:
==========
"Go to a Black Church. Surprise them. Bring your hidden microphone."
==========

Are there black extremists? sure!
Are there white extremists? sure!

People attack you on here because of your extremes
And then they refuse to consider ANY of your ideas

And that is truly unfortunate.

Ang, the whole NOO-CLEE-ER vs NOOK-U-LAR thing has been beaten to death over the years ... and as you are probably aware it wasn't just Bush II but even Jimmy Carter (who served in the US Navy as an officer in the Submarine Service as a nuclear engineer) who mispronounced this word. It boggles the mind!

I once heard a linguist explain why this error is so common but I wouldn't be able to paraphrase what he said. It made perfect sense when I heard it though.

But I wonder, when the Ber-NAK-e crowd hears the the rest of the world (90-95%) saying Ber-NANK-e, don't they ever ask themselves, Hey, hold on a minute, what's with this Ber-NANK-e shit?? Don't they ever notice the second letter n in that second syllable when they read Bernanke?

Is it possible I am the only person on this earth who is concerned with such things? Do I need "professional help" or is it everyone else who needs it?

And NOW - time for something completely different!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/liamhalligan/8196283/Market-alarm-as-US-fails-to-control-biggest-debt-in-history.html

Paush, paush, and huummph.....

Not exactly evening news material, eh yet?

I am afraid a certain person at this blog has failed to grasp the fact that I do not, and will not, speak directly to him/her, despite my having made this perfectly clear months ago, and accordingly his/her questions to me fall on deaf ears. "A word to the wise ... etc."

Nuclear, nookular, whatever, just try not to be around when they're in the air. (Hopefully we ALL have better sense than that these days, but I'm not holding my breath.)

But I'm seeing my breath! Dang it's cold! Sure am glad I don't live at the 47th parallel anymore!

Couldn't pass up mentioning this: we just drove up to Macon from Tifton, where we're in the process of moving fairly abruptly, and there were big trucks and men BUILDING NEW BILLBOARDS!! along the effing highways! From the spot of the first one I could see at least 5 unrented up ahead, and the ones with a reasonably intact advert on them looked like they hadn't had to pay rent in a while. Maybe years.

When I add that in with the 75 new houses they're building across the street from my house in Macon, while 1000s of houses in town are empty and unsold, some not even trying to sell, I come up with 2 reactions:

1)Talk about the psychology of previous investment! Both of these activities strike me as complete and utter insanity! WTF??, and

2)I kinda think it's hilarious to watch the wealthier among us throw their money back down the chain of command on our way back to post-fiat parity. From the earth we were born, and into the earth we shall rot, just like the greenback.

But how will we use this knowledge to our advantage?

Take care my friends,
Tripp out.

You are decidedly in need of professional help.

My next door neighbor got laid off from Yahoo yesterday. He'd been with the company for 12 years. Yahoo also laid off employee #3.

Yet Carol Bartz, Yahoo's CEO, makes $39 million a year. She was #1 on a list of executives who get paid too much to run underperforming companies.

Couldn't Yahoo have delayed the layoffs until after Christmas?

Jen

Why is it more politically correct to say "people of color" than "colored people"?

Where are you Qshtick?

I must concur. You could seriously use some psychiatric help. However, since I am in perfect agreement with you on this topic, then I suppose I need some psychiatric help as well.

Irregardless. Supposably. Could of. Would of. Should of. And, as the Grammar Girl calls it, the "Apostrophe Catastrophe."

However its all copacetic and a mute point. I try not to loose it when there mistakes don't effect me very much.

:)

I'll fill in for Qshtik here.

Irregardless is not a word.

Regardless is correct, and it needs no prefix.

Hilarious? Ok you're entitled to your opinion.

But seeing now as we're getting personal I agree with networker: you're fulla shit. Shame on me, I took your post at face value. I'll bet you haven't got two dimes to rub together. A ton of degrees. Yeah right. From where, a diploma mill?

What drives me? The White Race is in danger of extinction and people like you and Cash don't care - don't see any particular value in it. Don't see any relationship between it and Western Civilization. What a travesty and a disgrace. Do you appreciate some kinds of cars over others? Do you try to acquire some breeds of dogs or horses because of their special value? Yet
you deny the same privledge to Whites that you grant to cars, dogs, and horses: that of having a unique value. And subconsciously, you probably grant it to Asians and Africans - do you admit they have the right to their own Nations? If so, you are a hypocrite and a vicious anti-White bigot. And that you are White just increases the bizareness and the shame. It borders on mental illness - one that you share with a large percentage of Whites alive today. And you think other races share your color blindness! Oh you priceless fool - I lived and worked among Blacks most of my life and I know differently. You claim the same, but don't know. You are actively resisting the obvious everyday. They aren't like us, especially not like you. People like me they understand and can at least respect as an opponent. But you liberals - there is no place for you either at our table or their's. There is no place for you at all in the coming Age.

Homework: find a Chinese person and ask him or her whether the Chinese people have any special relation to Chinese Culture or whether Blacks are just as Chinese as they are. Sound crazy? That's exactly what you say about Whites and Western Civilization. But go ahead and do it - their look of amazed contempt may jar you into some kind of semi-consciousness.

They are trying to proect themselves subconsciously. They don't want to say nank because that sounds like bank. It reminds them that this twit is in control of our money supply. The Federal Reserve Bank is not Federal, there are no reserves, and it's not a bank. It's private and foreign, and a scam of gigantic proportions in which they loan us money that they don't have.

Oh I'm not a "worker"? If by that you mean I'm not Marxist street scum you're right.

Yee Ha! You jus climb right on top of that lil Black Philly and flap your wings. You're a True American. A politically correct yahoo pink neck. Yes siree. S'all right. You see, we don't want you and don't care what you do. Your children will be Black and that's that. Your contribution will be zero and less. A debit to your race, in the black so to speak.

Only one race and that's human.

Oh runty-one. You did so miss my point, but you may be forgiven since you do not know me. If you read carefully, you can see that I very deliberately made several of the most common mistakes in that one sentence - just for Qshtik's benefit. :)

No. I got it. Tongue-in-cheek on my part, too.
Have fun!

Howdy Q, Per snippet of your posts "Is it possible I am the only person on this earth who is concerned with such things? Do I need "professional help" or is it everyone else who needs it?" and last weeks "You've got horses on the brain ... it's nigh."

SNAFU bobs head down and up, paws at ground with hoofed right foreleg and whhhinnnieeees; which is well known in horse vernacular to mean "well I'll be god dammed you are correct." :-)

On a lighter note my favorite mispronunciation is Favre. Why is "Fav re" pronounce as if it is spelled "Far ve"?

Awaiting your submission with un-abated breath.

SNAFU

It must be very tough being you. I mean, living your life where racial purity is of the highest import and seeing a gradual decline in that purity and only a very low percentage of the population cares.

For what it's worth, here are my probabilities of a few of the future racial outcomes occurring (based only on my opinions):

Races merging into one golden race: 60%
SHTF and the country breaks up
into racially separate but equal
regions: 20%
Race wars, one country 10%
Race wars, different regions 10%
Non-white extermination/exile 0%

Sorry, Vlad, but your vision of racial purity/white supremacy won't happen, IM not so HO.

Do you really think anyone cares?

But TIME has made Mark Z its Man of the Year,,,,
I mean person of the year.

you have quite a handle CR

I have a friend from chicago who liked to go to black churches here in LA...for the music at a sunday service.
said he had to stop, the blacks were 'racist'
[i assume that means he got angry stares]

IN ANY CASE IF BLACKS ARE IN CHURCH...IS THAT GOOD OR BAD?

you noticed!

Thanks! Made it up myself...

lets talk facts:
JHK in his excellent book noted 'in muslim lands half the population is under 18'
[or was it in saudiarabia 1/3 is under 18?]

'And it's amazing - there really have been 10 million LEGAL immigrants allowed into the US over the past 10 years.'

WHYS IT SO AMAZING????
THIS HAS BEEN GOING ON SINCE 1965 BUT SNOWBALLING.

whats amazing is how its fobbed off on black/white america.
USA today etc 'celebrating' 'we are now 300,000,000'

Vlad....can you give him a reading list?

buy
intentional mis Spelling? or freudian slip?
either ways its funny and this blog could use more laughs,,,what with the reaper breathing down our backs.

You are new posting here?

what about [in honor of TIMES person of the year]
doing a facebook/clusterfuck page?

Oh I live in santamonica..here we have an ombudsperson..not an ombudsman!

Yee Ha! You jus climb right on top of that lil Black Philly and flap your wings. You're a True American. A politically correct yahoo pink neck. Yes siree. S'all right. You see, we don't want you and don't care what you do. Your children will be Black and that's that. Your contribution will be zero and less. A debit to your race, in the black so to speak.
==========

I have to hand it to you Vlad, your writings, and in particular your ripostes to insults, are always superior to those of your detractors.

And so, I'm going to overlook the fact that you used the nickname for Philadelphia instead of "filly."

;o)

Cunning Runt,

That’s an interesting question from the standpoint of semiology, but “colored people” was a Jim Crow era term bantered about in a derisive and dismissive manner.

A more interesting discussion might be why “cat” has been assigned to signify those lovely, languid felines? What is it about "CAT" that invokes a lion, leopard or jaguar, and why does the word spot signify the patterning on a jaguar or a stripe the vertical pattern on a tiger’s skin?

So much of language ( all of it?) is a cultural construct with no inherent connection between signifier and signified. A social approbation that serves to act as sign in many instances. A sign such as “All Colored People Sit In The Balcony”.

you have quite a handle CR
=========

I don't know Asia, I think the idea may have been stolen from a poster we haven't heard from in awhile: Cupid Stunt.

Why is "Fav re" pronounce as if it is spelled "Far ve"?
========

This question comes to my mind every Sunday during Pro-football season. If I ever meet Brett I'm going to ask him to please enunciate his last name for me so we can settle this once and for all.

Earmark fiscal year 2010 Sen. Mitch McConnell (KY) requests $3,600,000 for the Kentucky National Guard Marijuana Eradication Program Frankfort, KY

Santa Monica has an ombudsperson? Or is that a joke?

I grew up in Pasadena; left in 1985. Takes an awful lot of oil to run Southern Cal. I found your recent anecdote about Pomona schools disturbing...

Payroll tax holidays endanger social security and tax cuts will grow the deficit and destroy the dollar but we still need money to go Gestapo on weeds.

Irregardless. Supposably. Could of. Would of. Should of. And, as the Grammar Girl calls it, the "Apostrophe Catastrophe."

However its all copacetic and a mute point. I try not to loose it when there mistakes don't effect me very much.
========

Nice little compendium of the kind of shit that keeps me awake at night. Of course, it barely scratches the surface.

I think maybe I'll ask the next person who says "it's a mute point" if they have a moot button on their TV remote. Nah, they probably won't get it.

Population commentary is usually framed in personal, emotional terms. Therefore, for the sake of clarity, I shall state it in rational, objective terms.

1. Overpopulation is occurring.

2. It must be stopped.

3. The best ways of stopping it include limits on births and immigration.

4. The most democratic, legislatable of these options is limiting immigration.

5. Therefore we should limit immigration.

6. Since the negative effects of overpopulation are cumulative, starting sooner represents enormous cost-savings and ecological preservation.

7. Therefore we should start now.

Uh, period.

Very well said, Bustin.

Our host here agrees.
http://kunstler.com/blog/2010/07/my-tea-party.html

Now, what do we do next?

Buck

I don't know what region you are from, but in the Jim Crow South of my birth, the term "colored people," was the reference used in polite society - either that or "negro."

The term "nixxxr" was used otherwise.

While we are on the subject, it is funny how words shape shift and magically alter in these United States.

I thought whoever *invented* the term "black" in the late '60's was a pretty smart guy.
"He's black - I'm white" equal terms of address for two races to be treated equally.

I've never understood the INSULT in the term "colored person," or, for that matter, "person of color," "negro," or "black" for that matter.

And the term "African-American," though non-insulting (for some reason) doesn't make a whole lot of sense when applied to "Hatian-Americans," or "Sengalese-Americans," or whatever.

And I've got to say that I have heard "African-American" said with as much disrespectful emphasis as I have heard applied to the term, "nixxxr."

I'm not picking a fight - there's none to be picked.

I'm just stating a fact.

How many of you are aware of the fact that native born blacks (excuse me, "African-Americans) from the United States are held in very low esteem by blacks from other regions around the Planet?

"Thanks for the Judicial Watch story. That's quite interesting."

You're not welcome. And of course it is interesting and as it happens it is also the TRUTH. Now shut the fuck up and go away as asked. You a a nincompoop, wrapped in a fucktard blanket, inside a cave of ignorance. End and out, moron.

Why is it more politically correct to say "people of color" than "colored people"?

Where are you Qshtick?
=========

Odd ... the progression of what was or wasn't, but no longer is or isn't, considered politically correct. Negro, niggra, colored, black, African American. Not to mention nigger, boogie, shine, spade, etc.

But when you say "people of color" it takes the issue out of the USA and makes it inclusive of swarthy people everywhere. I think there's a comfort in numbers that somehow makes it more politically correct.

"Turk, you are shameless and annoying. You made a statement and TZA ably refuted it."


As Tza does with regularity. Turkey-lurkey is a meat puppet in search of a brain. His efforts in locating one will remain fruitless.

Howdy Bustin and Progressor,

Per your snippets: "Overpopulation is occurring","The best ways of stopping it include limits on births and immigration","Therefore we should limit immigration" and "Very well said, Bustin"

Apparently the pair of you are concerned only with human overpopulation of, I am assuming, the good ole usa. The mechanism by which limiting immigration into the usa helps to control world overpopulation by humans escapes me. Perhaps your immigration limiting technique is going to focus on the killing of any and all who would attempt to enter the promised land. Unfortunately this would be but drop in the bucket of that required and it would consist virtually entirely of Hispanic Americans. Not a viable plan as likely the Mexican Government would take umbrage with such an endeavor.

As I have pointed variously on this blog the least offensive and most effective is cessation of the birth of new human babies for a sustained period of years to allow the natural death rate to reduce the human population to a sustainable level for the Earth. As pointed out by various other posters to this blog the Earth wide population likely should be in the 1/2 to 1 billion humans range.

SNAFU

"Only TZA is trying to stand by the ludicrous statement (paraphrased) "ON THIS WEBSITE I AM ALWAYS CORRECT..."

So, that would indicate that you have read postings of mine that are incorrect. I welcome you to cite them at your leisure. (I will not be holding my breath.)

ABSOLUTELY CLASSIC right wing stupidity and misdirection -

You and Q find one error in Turkle's many accurate posts. (Which I still haven't seen because Q won't read my posts whch meanz i ken sey whatervthell i feel like frun nu own, i guez)

And you somehow force that one error repeatedly to the front - as though it invalidates the other 99% of truthful accuracy in the Turk's posts.

Dumazzes!

SNAFU,

As I told you before, months ago - I'd be on board with your plan if you can figure out how to implement it.

Maybe especially, since you'd be dictator of the world and I'd get to be your XO.

We'd be the NEW iteration of TPTB, man - SWEET!

Limiting immigration just keeps people where they are but doesn't lower the earth's population. We need a massive decline in earth's pop. from 6.7B to, say, 1B. I don't think the physical planet can hold on long enough for us to execute a nice tidy rollback in headcount by limiting births. That would take centuries if not millenia and would be fought tooth and nail all the way.

The answer, I hate to say, is a humungous plague-like die-off which I hope would take the oldest first.

'that that'...from earlier this week.
or it 2 of them in a row correct?

you may always be correct but you are never mellow

Vlad - A couple of really smart posters have acknowledged some essential TRUTH in some of your ideas. Yet you keep going, and going, and going with the extreme white supremacist stuff -

apparently in some internal belief that if people can't accept the whole freakin' package with every word as TRUTH - that they are not worth dealing with.
=========
You say:
"Asians and Africans - do you admit they have the right to their own Nations? If so, you are a hypocrite and a vicious anti-White bigot. And that you are White just increases the bizareness and the shame. It borders on mental illness"
===========

Of course Asians and Africans have the right to their own nations. So do whites, ALREADY! I agree with you - WHITE NATIONS ARE APPROVED BY ME, POC! We would call these white nations Switzerland and Sweden.

The United States will never be that sort of all-white nation, Vlad. That shipped sailed with the resolution and aftermath of the Civil War.

So pick something else and talk about it.
Or emigrate to Switzerland and help them see the error of their ways.

And yeah, I know the Swiss have problems with Muslims. I can't help the Swiss. They won't let me run for office or vote in Switzerland.

I can only help you try to understand - and my family, my state, and my Nation. (country)

First...ARE YOU CUPID STUNT?
if not did you derive yr name from that via rhyme?

i emailed the ombudsman..it bounced back.

TRY THIS:
OMBUDSPERSON@SMC.EDU

they got rid of the ombudsMANs email..[sexist]

Santa monica 'in the interest of sustainability
no longer has paper towels in the washrooms at its 50,000,000$ leed certified green design library.
gee..i wonder how large the architects and builders of it live!

on this one its NOT SO SIMPLE!!!

immigration froim the turd world to the USA allows for more people to live and be born.
yr smart...figure out how that works.
remember the #2[?] source of $ in mexico is $ sent back from el norte...
that $ gets turned into food.
food makes babies.

ask the irish...in the 1800s the potato got them to overshoot carrying capacity with tragic consequences.
theres many ways immigration causes the world population to increase..figure it out

in short the world is not a level playing field.
if it were yr canard would be true.

1/3rd? of haitians now live in USA.
1/3rd? of elsalvadorians now live in the USA.

dumping 100 million people does allow 'them' to 'overpopulate'...
the usa is used as a dump and a stopgap.

I was hearing bernie sanders [?] on KPFK.
i didnt know obama/the fed gave a third trillion in loans to japanese banks!

also:
'Since 2000, legal immigrants to the United States number approximately 1,000,000 per year.... '
one year under clinton was a [till then] record.
ALSO THEM FIGGERS DONT ACCOUNT FOR ANCHOR BABIES.
are AB 100,000 a year or 500,000?
does anyone really know?

'emigrate to Switzerland and help them see the error of their ways.'

highly unlikely..
i assume Vlad speaks english as a 2nd language so
hes from somewhere else
and he knows how fulla crap white europeans [or their respective govts] are.I dont like california anymore [due to it being now 50% ? immigrants] but i wouldnt move to europe.

Youngster,
give it 5 years and see whos 'on the money' [pun intended] with regards to americas unFALLING
rather unfolding.
if yr right great.

lisa you read the mainstream news all too much.
as a brit said to me 'i see more and more indians in southern california. i think they get in from UK to US'
I agree with vlad.
India may be the first nation with 2 billion.
if it hadnt broke up due to muslims itd maybe over 2b NOW!
the us is a dump for the unemployed from the turd world.

Your Favre comment reminds me of how Ben Stiller's character couldn't pronounce Favre's name in the movie, "There's Something About Mary".

Anyone remember that? The movie was hilarious.

Q, you say to Bustin:

"Limiting immigration just keeps people where they are but doesn't lower the earth's population."

You're in the US, correct. We can't help the rest of the Earth's populations if we don't help ourselves first.

That's why reducing immigration to the US could be THE MOST important decision that we can help to push as American voters.

============
On a personal note - you really may be the thing you fear most. You want to die at 71 in the big *die-off* and be done with it. Wimp!

I want to live to be 100 - if I can do it with most of my faculties intact. I want to fight against collapse and death with all my might to help my children, grand-children, and (hopefully) great-great grand-children survive and thrive.

If something should happen (God forbid) to my wife - then I want to remarry and use my 99 year old gene pool to help repopulate the Earth.

That's my plan for collapse.

But good Lord, I don't mind admitting that I hope I don't have to work that hard for the next 40+ years.

Asia, I won't move to Europe - I'm making my final stand in the US.

My point was more to Vlad that if he wanted to live in a White Nation - then he should have beseeched his god (God - 'cause I know Vlad's a man of Faith) to be born in Switzerland or Sweden.

Because an all-white country is not happening in the US.

Progressorconserve,

“Colored people” was most often uttered within a context of segregation. “People of Color” on the other hand, is a far more inclusive term, inferring integration. And let’s face it, what person likes to think of themselves as colorless?

Try this experiment sometime: go buy a couple of sheets of black and white paper from the hobby store. Place the black sheet next to a “black” person and place the white sheet of paper next to a “white” person. At that point any person with decent vision will realize that all people are colorful to one degree or another and that the language of classification is imprecise and cumbersome to say the least.

“People of Color” is a current language convention that denotes respect.

"The best ways of stopping it include limits on births and immigration."

That depends on how you define "best". I could think of more effective means than the above. Like we could genetically develop and release into the world a new deadly disease (after innoculating all Americans) that would cause billions to die. Of course, there's that little nagging problem of morality.

Look at the issue of limiting births: We don't have the power to impose birth restrictions on other countries. So the US population, with restricted births and immigration, stabilizes at 300 million, but the rest of the world's population increases to 15 billion. Tell me that wouldn't threaten the US.

In fact, China, a very dictatorial country if there ever was one, has instituted birth restrictions for years, and still the population increased from the 100's of millions to the present 1.3 billion.

I'm afraid only one higher authority can make the population decrease - nature - via lethal pandemic, depleted agricultural land, plant pandemic, climate change, tipping point in environmental damage, asteroid strike, mega solar flare, mega volcanic eruption, etc., etc.

Don't give up, Bean. Let's deal with one problem at the time.

You ask:"US population, with restricted births and immigration, stabilizes at 300 million, but the rest of the world's population increases to 15 billion. Tell me that wouldn't threaten the US"

Of course it would. But first let's deal with stabilizing the US population at 300,000,000 - hope our example helps some other countries - and THEN deal with the next problem that comes down the pike.

Fight for the future, man.
I can tell you see it coming!

LOL! "Q", haven't heard some of those words since the '50s! (thank heaven!)

Procon, I think I'm about halfway between your age and Q's. Most of the time I think like you (particularly after being in a regular exercise schedule at the gym, and my body feels great), I want to keep staying around to see the new marvels and opportunities that mankind can create (remember, regarding the future I'm an optimist), but sometimes I get so tired of the struggle, I can adhere to Q's viewpoint and Myrtlemay's. Luckily, that's not too often.

There might, just might, be a lot you don't know, asia.

Check this out:
http://csper.wordpress.com/2010/08/12/monopoly-money-and-the-international-banking-cartel/

I ain't giving up. I never have and never will. Thanks for the exhortation.

100% agree, Buck Stud!!

It's unfortunate on this website that posters will simply - not - - respond --- when they agree!

(or, sometimes when they are beaten so badly that they run out of ideas - TZA?)

You say:
"“Colored people” was most often uttered within a context of segregation. “People of Color” on the other hand, is a far more inclusive term, inferring integration."

100% agreement - and that's a cool exercise with the black and white papers. You know Crayola came out with a color for real *black* people years ago.

My wife, who taught elementary school, was greatly assisted by this new Crayola crayon.

She - and her students of all races - had gotten tired of pictures of MLK - where his face was a black as night - instead of a "real" MLK type color.

Best Regards, Buck - what's next?

(Re: Mr. Favre)

"This question comes to my mind every Sunday during Pro-football season. If I ever meet Brett I'm going to ask him to please enunciate his last name for me so we can settle this once and for all." -Q.

And then listen to him mispronounce HIS OWN NAME!
How magnificently cool!
Good one, Q.

"...they also lay the preconditions
for future misfortune"

Pride goeth before a fall.

"I'm not picking a fight - there's none to be picked."

I've got a New Yorker cartoon in one of my notebooks of a cat chasing a couple mice into a mouse hole. The caption reads: "A Feline-American pursuing two Rodent-Americans".

Asoka's LONG EMERGENCY Theme Song

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PFCgAhZEO8

It's been a long time comin' (Friedman units!)

It's goin' to be a Long Time Gone (47 years!)

And it appears to be a long,
appears to be a long,
appears to be a long
time, yes, a long, long, long ,long time before the dawn.

Turn, turn any corner.
Hear, you must hear what the people say.
You know there's something that's goin' on around here,
the surely, surely, surely won't stand the light of day.
And it appears to be a long,
appears to be a long,
appears to be a long
time, yes, a long, long, long ,long time before the dawn.

Speak out, you got to speak out against the madness,
you got to speak your mind,
if you dare.
But don't no don't now try to get yourself elected
If you do you had better cut your hair.
`Cause it appears to be a long,
appears to be a long,
appears to be a long,
Time, such a long long long long time before the dawn.

It's been a long time comin'
It's goin' to be a long time gone.
But you know,
The darkest hour is always
Always just before the dawn.
And it appears to be a long, appears to be a long,
appears to be a long
Time before the dawn.

immigration froim the turd world to the USA allows for more people to live and be born.
=========

There is definitely an element of truth in what you say but I didn't want to over-complicate my thesis in a single paragraph. Plus, I'm talking the whole world, not just what impacts the USA.

So, if ALL immigration on the planet ceased the world's population would still continue growing - ceteris paribus - though, perhaps, at a shallower rate. We need a massive decline that graphically looks like that first drop on a roller coaster at Six Flags.

Are you telling me that if I use the facilities in this "green" facility, I can't dry my hands in the wash room? Yuck.

Europe will have the immigration problems we will, only in their case it will be caused by Muslims rather than Hispanics. If you really want to conquer the world, use fecundity, not war. Pull out your Johnson, not your AK47.

Oh wow! I actually felt comfortable visiting this site today. Thank you 'nothing' for inserting an actual comment instead of the word "first". I'm dangerously close to labeling this site a trainwreck.

Santa Monica has an ombudsperson? Or is that a joke?
=========

When all this "person"-instead-of-"man" nonsense was hitting its peak I came home one day and said to my wife "You're not going to believe this. I just passed by the Wegman's store and the sign has been changed to Wegperson's." She looked at me for a few moments without saying anything to see if I'd lose my poker face and when I didn't she said "You're shitting me, right?"

Agreed, Captain, when you say:
===========
"Europe will have the immigration problems we will, only in their case it will be caused by Muslims rather than Hispanics."
==============

The question is WHY, in the case of Switzerland??
Here we have a country with no military misadventures to apologize for - no history of wide-spread and racially based slavery for which to make reparations.

The French have suddenly realized their culture is at risk, and they're suddenly trying to do something about it. But they are screwed because of their former North African colonies - kind of serves them right, when you think about it.

But the Swiss, WTF - WHY on Earth are they litigating about mosques in Switzerland????

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/30/world/europe/30swiss.html

This goes to my thesis that we have a complete karmic collapse of Western Culture -

Which will only be complete when the US is so overpopulated that we cannot help ourselves - or anyone else - at which point the human species is finished, as well -

which may serve us all right, when you think about it -

"...and THEN deal with the next problem that comes down the pike. Fight for the future, man.
I can tell you see it coming!"

Similar Reasoning? Just asking...

"Purportedly, it was Arthur Burns, Fed Chairman under Richard Nixon, who first offered the advice that helped to guide Alan Greenspan and a number of Administrations. The gist of the wisdom imparted was that if you ran into problems, you could ignore the budget deficit and the dollar. Ignoring them did not matter, because doing so would not cost you any votes.

Back in 2005, I [ John Williams ] raised the issue of a then-inevitable U.S. hyperinflation with an advisor to both the Bush Administration and Fed Chairman Greenspan. I was told simply that "It’s too far into the future to worry about."

Indeed, pushing the big problems into the future appears to have been the working strategy for both the Fed and recent Administrations. Yet, the U.S. dollar and the budget deficit do matter, and the future is at hand. The day of ultimate financial reckoning has arrived, and it is playing out."

http://www.shadowstats.com/article/hyperinflation-2010

Nice little compendium of the kind of shit that keeps me awake at night. Of course, it barely scratches the surface.

I think maybe I'll ask the next person who says "it's a mute point" if they have a moot button on their TV remote. Nah, they probably won't get it.

---------

HILARIOUS! Can't wait to use that one!

Kick the can, MD.

So Decider, BushII told John Williams that hyperinflation - "...too far into the future to worry about."

Doesn't surprise me, MD. I've become increasingly convinced that BushII will someday catch the blame for putting the final spikes in the coffin of the American Dream.

But a little hyperinflationary economic collapse is NOTHING compared to the Planet killing power of excessive immigration and 350,000,000 "Americans."

Check this out:
http://www.cis.org/edwards/legal-immigration-cuts

- --------- @@@@@@@@@@ ----------- -

Qshtick says limiting births won't work.

He's mathematically wrong.

By limiting the birth rate to one child per woman, the population of Earth would inexorably creep south of 2 Billion individuals by THE END OF THIS CENTURY.

- --------- @@@@@@@@@@ ----------- -

For AMERICA- if you remove legal and illegal immigration from the equation, America begins an INEXORABLE decline in total population. As long as the replacement rate is maintained, America could go back 50 million.

Wouldn't that be a great gift for the GRANDKIDS!

- ---------- @@@@@@@@@@ -------- -

Ending ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION

Look at the scope of what we're already doing.

TSA transportation security Admin.

HLS Homeland security

Border patrol

State and local cops

"Federales"

National guard in some cases (aviation mostly)

Solution:

1. LEGISLATIVE. The law MUST BE CHANGED, MAKING IT MORE SPECIFIC.

2. JUDICIDAL. More cases must be brought into the system and tried. This will require:

FBI, CIA, ATF, DEA

as well as

Halliburton and other major government contractors.

Everyone will get intensive training and subsequent field experience rounding people up and putting them on busses. The scale of all this may be large, but again, look at the scope ALREADY.

3. We need some way to scale or ratchet things back down after we "unleash the dogs". I would imagine that may require a complete change in U.S. foreign policy, to reduce the need for all the extra help hired for the "Immigration Holiday"!

4. To make all this happen we need to declare a partial amnesty on the people who hired the illegals in the first place.

FACT: MOST PEOPLE'S LIVES DEPEND IN SOME WAY ON THE GOODS AND SERVICES OF THE ILLEGAL SECTOR.

FACT: MANY INFLUENTIAL AND HIGH-NET WORTH INDIVIDUALS PROFIT DIRECTLY FROM THE EXPLOITATION OF ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT LABOR.

FACT: THESE ARE AMERICANS AND TO PRESERVE THEIR VOTE, WE WILL PROBABLY HAVE TO OFFER THE AMERICANS AND THE AMERICANS ONLY, AN AMNESTY, LIKE WE DID FOR THE SLAVEHOLDERS OF THE OLD SOUTH.

- --------- @@@@@@@@@@@ --------- -

Here are some projected facts:

1. THE ENSUING CHAOS OF DISIMMIGRATION WILL RESULT IN SIGNIFICANT SHORT-TERM DEMAND FOR LABOR OF ALL KINDS, SKILLED OR UNSKILLED IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR.

2. AGRICULTURE, ONE OF AMERICA AND THE GLOBE'S, MOST MASSIVE SECTORS, WILL HAVE TO RECEIVE, IN PART OR WHOLE, A FARM BAILOUT. THIS BAILOUT WILL COVER THE MASSIVE COST OF LABOR INCREASE THAT WILL OCCUR AFTER DISIMMIGRATION. IN ADDITION, THE FOOD PRODUCTS INDUSTRY AND ATTACHED ECONOMY WILL COLLAPSE. I REPEAT: IT WILL COLLAPSE. THE BUYING AND SELLING OF FOOD WILL HAVE TO BE RESTRICTED TO SPECIAL NOTES STAMPS, OR CREDIT.

3. GLOBALLY, SINCE US. FOOD AND AID SURPLUS FEEDS ALMOST 40% OF THE GLOBAL POPULATION AND 2 BILLION PEOPLE OUTSIDE THE US ANNUALLY, TREASURY OR THE FED WILL HAVE TO FLOAT MARKETS, POSSIBLY ATTACHING AN ARM TO THE FED CONCERNED ONLY WITH THE FOOD/DOLLAR CHANGEOVER AND CREATION OF THE FEDERAL "GENERAL AGRICULTURE" DEPARTMENT.

4. YOU ARE BEGINNING TO SEE THE SCOPE OF THE PROBLEM AND ITS SOLUTIONS. GOOD FOR YOU. NOW KEEP READING BECAUSE THERE IS MORE TO COME.

- ----------- @@@@@@@@@ --------- -

The happy ending.

FACT: EVENTUALLY, THE DOMESTIC ECONOMY WILL FIND A STEADY COMMODITY PRICE AS GEARS CHANGE.

- ------------ @@@@@@@@@@ --------- -

Some predictable effects:

FACT: ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION WILL REMAIN A PROBLEM WITHOUT A SOLUTION INTO THE FORSEEABLE FUTURE. PEOPLE WILL ALWAYS WANT TO COME HERE AND LIVE, AND AS LONG AS THE UNITED STATES IS THE RICHEST, MOST SUCCESSFUL COUNTRY IN THE WORLD, THE INTERNAL AND EXTERNAL INCOME DIFFERENTIAL WILL REMAIN AS IT IS CURRENTLY.

FACT: AFTER DISIMMIGRATION, WITH ALL OTHER THINGS BEING THE SAME,

WE WILL SEE A NET DECLINE IN THE TOTAL POPULATION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IN NORTH AMERICA BECAUSE SUCCESSFUL WESTERN BITCHES DON'T HAVE AS MANY KIDS, PERIOD.

- ------------ @@@@@ -------- -

- --------- Epilogue -------- -

The only way to get legislation enacted is a mass movement outside the two-party system to force them to make it happen.

That reminds me,

EVERY FOUR DAYS THE PLANET ADDS OVER A MILLION PEOPLE.

Qshtick says limiting births won't work.

He's mathematically wrong.

By limiting the birth rate to one child per woman, the population of Earth would inexorably creep south of 2 Billion individuals by THE END OF THIS CENTURY.
==========

Bust,

I googled "China's one child policy facts." I chose the first article (link below) that seemed like it might contain some relevant data.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/11/world/asia/11china.html

Background: China has had a one child per couple policy in effect since 1979 which continues to this day. That's 31 years. The policy has not prevented the population from growing although it has slowed the rate of growth. Here are two key sentences from the article:

“So it [the policy] has to be kept unchanged at this time to ensure stable and balanced population growth.”

"China Daily reported that the population was growing by up to 17 million people a year."

There are also interesting comments about detrimental effects of the policy:

A drastically rising population of aged citizens as a % of the total.

A shrinking population of workers as a % of the total.

And all of this does not even delve into how such a policy would be enforced in a country like the USA and other non-totalitarian countries.

Oh, probably just like the casino where my Dad goes to gamble away my inheritance. :-) . They recently replaced all their paper towel dispensers with hot air blowers. In the interest of being "green" and hygiene.

Oh, well. 90% of the old guys don't wash their hands, anyway. And my Dad wonders why I don't want to TOUCH those machines.

Oh, I think part of it is that the old poops just can't figure out that you have to put your hands under the faucet to get it to run or that you have to stick your hands inside the blower to get it to work. Or, they just don't like change. I know how they feel.

Somewhere, back upstream was a lively conversation on the appropriate nomenclature for those with an abundance of melanin. I prefer using "Black Folk."

Then there's the "Full Quiver Movement." Some fundamentalist whack jobs who believe in just popping out as many little suckers as "God sends." I think a lot of religious groups who are contraceptably (yeah, not a real word, I know) challenged have a hidden (or not so hidden) agenda of multiply and conquer.

Just came out today - your hero Mike wants another dog. He says it will be good for his rehabilitation! What a Buck, huh? I used to crack up one of my Black friends with my Uncle Remus imitation: "Where you young Bucks goin'?"

Thank you. I think so too. In Martial Arts, you thank the opponent for the energy or gift of his attack. Likewise, my enemies bring out the best in me lifting me to levels of eloquence I could not otherwise attain. As Willian Blake said, "Opposition is true friendship. I love these Low Lifes.

All cars are the same - be it a new cadillac or an 20 year old plymouth shitbox. They're both equally good because they're both equally cars.

See? Unless one understands the meaning of words CONSCIOUSLY, language easily becomes a form of self hypnosis. You actually think "all people are the same, they're all people" actually means something - that's it's a philosophical proof? Or you think it's obviously true? That's because it's circular and self referential. A tautology. There's nothing there. Beyond that it's demonstrably false - just like taking a quick drive will disprove the equality of the two cars.

Qtip said, "Background: China has had a one child per couple policy in effect since 1979 which continues to this day. That's 31 years. The policy has not prevented the population from growing although it has slowed the rate of growth. Here are two key sentences from the article: So it [the policy] has to be kept unchanged at this time to ensure stable and balanced population growth. China Daily reported that the population was growing by up to 17 million people a year. There are also interesting comments about detrimental effects of the policy: A drastically rising population of aged citizens as a % of the total."

Those are the current trends, however, if the death rate stays the way it is (negative replacement rate) on a scale of 90 years you see peak population cresting and then descending.

China WILL go down eventually under the one child policy. But it will peak.

Now, life extension makes the replacement rate bump up making the overall peak and decline longer. But the principle remains:

One child per man, per woman will halve the world population within a single generation.

The Romans called them Saeculum.

Peak population under this policy could make a high ceiling for world population from 2020-2040 and it would not go higher than 8 billion.

We're talking about the only solution to the overpopulation problem being

1. Sane.

and

2. Fair.

All other considerations are for baseline ethical reasons neither sane nor fair considering the global impact of the question. All other considerations involving the forcible denial of life.

Opponents, religious or not, to population control will have to be a socially ostracized AS A general practice... BY MOST PEOPLE. That is the only social solution that is fair. In other words, anarchy. Again, borders are essential and nations must prevail and overpopulating nations will suffer extreme privation.

That is why I mentioned American foreign policy would have to flip upside down overnight to make this happen. We give aid to get things like natural resources. We would absolutely be giving up on free trade.

Considering we are still the world's largest economy I think all of our baseline real economic fears are a little high. America, the country, could go it alone on the planet. "Free Trade" is just a lie, for the priviledged (people invested in world economy- mostly paper assets).

America could close its borders and be fine.

America needs to be a country that changes its mind, and just refuses to budge.

The only way this is going to happen is a General Strike. The last time they tried this it was last Saeculum.

"Immigration Holiday".

1. You get a flash mob of several millions of people. You do this through Youtube.

2. At a specified time, at a specified date for a specified length of time, you sit on your ass.

3. Modern day general strike is like that movie Office Space. You sleep in. You do what you want to do. (Probably surf the net and post to CFN).

4. While everyone sits on their ass, the economy, running at (14,000,000,000 dollars GDP / 365 days) and enough people sitting on their assess to effectively stop economic activity) would cost ......

$38,356,164.38 (38.4 BILLION DOLLARS A DAY)

Normally, the "Immigration Holiday", the "Work Holiday", "BUSINESS HOLIDAY" (I like that one) would go on for, say, a week.

During which said week, leader of the Youtube army has complete grip on the Balls of the United States.

How do you get everyone to go along? It's pretty simple. You talk about these kind of ideas and just about everyone will confess to thinking its a righteous idea. What you need is the initial group that will push the video up in viewer-ship.

The video has to display a convincing image of the act being executed in the world- everybody having a "Holiday". The video will have to have all the traits of a good movie. It is just a question of obtaining the quality material and releasing it widely enough.

This guy might be able to help us: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSAqr3GH8PA

-- -- - - -- -- - -- - - - -

Here at Clusterfuck Nation, dot com., we talk about what should happen and what does happen with striking accuracy. Right now I'm merely talking about what must happen, and what should happen. But what will happen remains tantalizingly out of reach. The promise is that is there. Our solutions have always been right in front of us, waiting to be found.

ACT NOW!

SAVE YOUR SELVES!

ALL POWER TO THE RHINOSAURUS!

* Overpopulating countries, regions, and places will remain significant impediments to a return to ecological parity, until then, keep counting the dead, and wish ill on our enemies.


Heat guns can probably be used on the border although feeling hot & spicy might be something someone could withstand.

http://youtu.be/NFRoMUorNEc

DEMONSTRATION of soldiers (under the influence of LSD)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFSW44UPgwQ


Vlad said:

"Creativity? The Chinese taking over part of the US?"

On this and other parts of your reply to Cash
I must regrettably agree. As a resident of
multi-cultural "utopia" (SF Bay Area), I've
seen quite enough Chinese, Indians, and Arabs
hiring their own and socializing exclusively
with their own. They don't even buy into
Western culture which is why San Jose is the
largest city in the WORLD without a major
symphony orchestra ... whatever one might read
about Asian violin prodigies.

The Democratic multi-cultural schema only works
if all sides participate by "melting" into the
melting pot. I don't see that at all in
California. Mexicans have Mexican construction
companies. Asians have Asian tech companies.
You listen to people walking up and down the
main street of Palo Alto and you're likely to
think you're not even in America.

The Anglos in America may be falling down on the
job educationally and in many other ways but it's
still a country whose inventions are almost
EXCLUSIVELY American and European. I don't
think our visitors from the Asian continent
show sufficient respect for that fact by
even attempting to blend in. They certainly
seldom speak in English to each other here.

One wonders, for example, how one would be
treated in China if one ran a tech company
that had two token Chinese and 100 Americans.
I've seen what the Chinese do to African grad
students who try to date Chinese women. They
get BEATEN UP.

So the message is that ethnocentrism is NOT
the "White Man's Disease". Indeed, from living
here in "Multi Culture Ville" I'd say that the
people with slanty eyes are WAAAAAY more
blatantly ethnocentric than European-Americans.


E.

'human' is always nice too.

I know like a carnival side show, stranger than fiction.

Obviously its not everybody's kind of entertainment, few seem to have noticed. As usual that which is has horrible or unpleasant implications is quickly ignored.

C'est la vie.

'reification' can be a very dangerous thing, it can justify evil and trap minds in narrow passageways.

Now concerning this Revolutionary Moment

I was busy today and just wanted to see if I missed it or not.

@ K-Dog....

If yous not be featured in this Vid....

http://submedia.tv/stimulator/2010/12/15/ca-cancun/

Then I guess you did miss it, that moment that is...

But many are no longer prepared to be just comfy-couch passive victims of change it seems...

Military junta style futures anyone?

Woof... woof...

Toodle-pip!

I enjoyed the video. Who can argue against down with MO FO except MO FOs themselves. To qualify as this weeks Revolutionary Moment however I must point out the rules.

I never dreamed I'd see a revolutionary moment here in the USA - even with old Nixie pulling one fast one after another

I point out "in the USA" means the Revolutionary Moment must be domestic, originating inside the country. Pseudoevents do not count and are disqualified as are hits off the genuine handmade clay Richard Nixon bong.

Howdy Progressor, Your comments"As I told you before, months ago - I'd be on board with your plan if you can figure out how to implement it.

Maybe especially, since you'd be dictator of the world and I'd get to be your XO."

I sent the white house an email a year or more ago when they sent me an email asking if I had any ideas the president might want to consider. We are on first name basis since I gave him some money for his presidential campaign :). I asked him to get with the other world leaders and establish a Manhattan type project to develop a male sterilization compound that could be slipped into the food or beverages of all humans forthrightly or surreptitiously if need be. No response. I reckon the time is now to give the Illuminati a try :).

I had hopes that the highly vaunted intelligence of the naked apes could be brought to the fore and we/they could be convinced to pull our/their heads out of our/their collective asses such that we/they might recognize that without a massive reduction in human population we/they and the rest of the Earth's fauna are collectively FUCKED! Currently I observe such a minuscule effort by science in this endeavor that perhaps 90/95% or more of the human population do not believe there is a human overpopulation problem. The human proclivity to suckle the teat of religious superstition is definitely an impediment of massive proportions when one attempts to even discuss human overpopulation much less contemplate effective measures to reduce it.

Qshtik is on the correct track unfortunately even the Black Plague/Black Death only reduced the Earth's human population from 450 million to about 350 million and within 150 years or thereabout the little bastards had fucked their way right back up to 450 million and climbing.

Fear not Q the triple witching point of nonrenewable (I prefer incredibly slowly renewable, but who gives a shit eh) energy resources, global warming (the Earth continuously experiences hourly, daily, weekly, monthly ..... climate change (y'all down there in Georgia continuing to enjoy the coolness? It has been in the zero to a bit below F in the early morn here for the past few days but I see it is a balmy 15 out there this morn rising to about 20 by afternoon.) and the high likelihood of additional economic malfeasance will likely bring about the required depletion of human population required. On the down side it is unlikely to be pretty nor equitable, may require a revisit by the Aliens. The upside is the effects will likely be permanent and humbling. God damn I hope religion does not rear it's ugly head again in the aftermath, prolly it will.

Progressor I observe that you appear to fit into my definition of a denier of human overpopulation with your snippet from a later post "I want to live to be 100 - if I can do it with most of my faculties intact. I want to fight against collapse and death with all my might to help my children, grand-children, and (hopefully) great-great grand-children survive and thrive." My guess is that you buy into the concept that human life means something and that your legacy is in your genes. My contention is that anyone who believes they have a right to add to the Earth's human overpopulation problem does not believe there is a problem.

Asoka stand up and take a bow. How many others posting to this blog can say they HAVE NOT personally continued their gene line. A show of hands; Asoka's and mine, any others?

Well Progressor do I say "easy does it big guy" now or after you rip me a new asshole? :-)

SNAFU

SNAF

You have highlighted certain intractable realities in you post - leaving me in a mental state approaching resignation.

If there is no God (god) personally guiding the affairs of man - then our species has been driven into a position from which there is no way out. The reproductive imperative - obeyed by ALL species - produced our big brains. But now our big brains and our desire to keep reproducing has doomed us.

There were points along the way where humanity could have been saved. But all these points were breached with a unthinking thoroughness that suggests to me that God (god) wants us dead - or else TPTB are really selfish, shortsighted, and stupid.

Religion will play a big part in our demise. To pick the famous example - the Catholic Church leadership lies to the point that only a Catholic (DEVOUT) could believe their words (Words?) - but they were not stupid in their initial goals.

To twist and finagle the words of Jesus (or even the doctrinaire Paul (saul) into something that says, "Thou shalt not wear condoms forsooth and verily all Thy sex shalt result in Catholic Babies -" is some world class prevaricating.

But it was successful, for a number of centuries - you've got to give them that.

I'm about half through with my analysis of your ideas. I'll be back pretty quick, if BeanTown's asteroid does not hit this morning.

"You and Q find one error in Turkle's many accurate posts."

One error? Oh, just a minor glitch. Where, meat puppet, totally misrepresented the way in which Paulson, FORCED banks to take a Fed bailout, OR-FUCKING-ELSE.

Merely one more example, where turkey-lurkey talks out of his ass and swears it is Pavarotti singing.

TZA -
Turkle acknowledged that one error and explained in detail what *probably?* did happen with those banks and that bailout.

Is that all you got that Turkle made a mistake on?

Something important - please.

Although it won't matter - you will never change your mind.

"The conservative mind is like concrete."
"All mixed up and permanently set."

Something tells me that you think the best birth control is for the woman to keep her knees together.

And that BushII kept us safe, so all his other errors will be forgiven by history.

I have no hope of helping a poster who employs "*logic??*" in the manner that you do.

I don't mean to imply that your idea is a bad one; and I'm happy to help you "war game" it out here.

One problem is that religious, National, and regional powers would attempt to block its implementation - and some would succeed.

The other problem is that evolution itself, would push, probe, and find a "work-around" to your birth control chemical. It might turn human evolution even more rapid and cut-throat - sort of like bacterial evolution - except with bigger organisms with bigger brains.

Just plain old effective birth control has been blocked by the Religious and "sex can't be fun" forces. I recall that St. Rayguns blocked funding for sex education/birth control if any sort of abortion talk or funding was involved.

I'm saying that a first step toward practical implementation of your plan would BE 100% effective birth control and free, easy and de-stigmatized abortions. Neither of which will ever receive the backing of the brain addled short term fixated forces currently rising to power in modern American politics.
==============
You also said:
"My guess is that you buy into the concept that human life means something and that your legacy is in your genes. My contention is that anyone who believes they have a right to add to the Earth's human overpopulation problem does not believe there is a problem."
=================

I'm not an overpopulation "denier" as you put it. And I was speaking post-TSHTF, concerning continuing to fight for my ggchildren and reproduce myself IF the situation warranted.

My wife and I are the same age. If we're 99 years old - and the nearby men have disappeared or are unable to reproduce - implying that "regional?" human populations are back under the "background energy" requirements.

Then I will reserve the right to locate some nubile young female of reproductive age to keep my (obviously amazing! LOL) genes in circulation for the future.

My wife says she will even give me that permission note, if these circumstances ever present themselves.

I think she's betting that won't happen.
Maybe I'm hoping she's right. ;-)

"There were points along the way where humanity could have been saved. But all these points were breached with a unthinking thoroughness that suggests to me that God (god) wants us dead - or else TPTB are really selfish, shortsighted, and stupid." -PoC

Guess which! Your answer could involve you in future lawsuits by either of those parties. Or is it "partys" in legalese? Interesting (if time-wasting) thought, though: Whose cadre of lawyers has more [breech/breach]-clout? Godz or Menz? I can see it now... "Vatican sues Chinese for breach of "godz-law" regarding "fruitfulness" and "multiplication". (Orchard husbandry and math? Hoo-knoo!)

Howdy Progressor,

Agree wholeheartedly that the religiously fervent would not be appreciative; be that as it may.

The chemical cocktail to sterilize the male population need be effective for likely less than 40 years. It would seem unlikely that the beneficial evolutionary happenstance of gamma ray sperm cell modifications would lead to a significant number of suddenly fertile males within such a short time frame. Considering the 100's of millions of sperm per ejaculation what thinks ye the probabilities of a single modified sperm being the lucky little critter?

Going out to start my tractor and do a little plowing talk with you later.

SNAFU

As soon as the dot-com bubble burst, so did the symphony. In 2001, if I remember correctly, the San Jose Symphony ceased to exist. My husband and I had season tickets, on and off, since 1986.
Two weeks prior to bankruptcy, I had forked over hundreds of dollars for a subscription. It's a darn shame.

As for diversity in the Bay Area...I find Indians from Asia pushy and graceless. Also, when they redecorate/remodel in the suburbs, the result is often hideous. Bizarre colors, overuse of decorative features, (someone had a sale on greek columns!) fancy fountains in the front yard along with victorian light poles they bought in bulk at Costco. They forget that their house is a 1970's era stucco split-level and that adding greek columns, victorian fountains, and gold-tipped iron-wrought fencing doesn't work from an aesthetic point-of-view.

The neighbor I turned in for child abuse is Indian. Her son had come over to our house crying after he'd been beaten with a hanger. "This is the way we discipline in India," she raged at me. "You're in America!" I reminded her.

I did most of my growing up against the foothills in Cupertino. Jokingly, they now call it Chindia because every immigrant wants their kid to go to Monta Vista High School because of the test scores. In my old neighborhood, only one white family remains.

Jen

There's two major things going on here.

One is the cultural self abasement and self abnegation pushed by liberal elites on both sides of the US Canada border.

In Canada they push the bullshit idea that we're a multi-cultural country. As if Anglo Saxon culture and traditions are somehow inadequate. Except we're not. We're not a multicultural country and our culture is not inadequate.

If an immigrant wants to make it here he has to be fluent and functionally literate in English, understand and abide by the terms and conditions of English common law, Canadian statute law and the customs and traditions of Westminster style Parliamentary democracy. You can scrape by if you don't speak English or if you marginalize yourself by sticking to your own ethnic group.

But you'd be one dumb fuck if you did. You come all this way, go through all the trouble of uprooting yourself and your family to start over and then you do what? Deliberately drop the ball on the 5 yard line?

I've seen people do both. In the Italian immigrant community in Toronto there's people that have lived here for most of their lives and who can speak only very broken English, like some of my own relatives. They've made no effort to get with the program. And I've seen other people (like other Italian relatives of mine) do the opposite. They came here with their ass in gear, they learned English, Anglo customs, they made themselves part of the larger community. I suspect you see the same thing in the US.

Idiot liberals and multiculturalists piss all over the idea but, like it or not, English is the Latin of the modern world and Britain and the Anglosphere countries made themselves the go-to places on this planet because of their values, customs, and traditions. But the libs and the multi-cultis denigrate these values and traditions. It's as if they think it gives them some kind of moral superiority.

The other thing that's happening (and I've seen it) is a gradual cretinization in our Canuck born people. They do not work hard, they do not study hard, they are substandard in their day to day work. It's infuriating to see people with every advantage handed to them on a platter throw it away. So, as a result, people that come here from overseas laugh at our educational system, our lazy assed work habits, our slovenly attitudes towards our offspring and families. Do you blame them? I don't.

Look at our totally screwed up families. Used to be that an average adult had 2.8 kids. Now an average kid has 2.8 parents. Somewhere or other. Is it a wonder immigrants keep to their own ethnic groups when the alternative is to hang with what they see as a gang of pisstanks and losers?

A month ago a magazine up here ignited a shitstorm by saying that some of our universities attract mostly Asian kids because they don't fuck around. The schools have high standards and Asian kids are there to work and not piddle away their parents' money. Other universities attract mostly white native born kids because they are interested only in partying.

We gotta shape up boys. Fast.

Background: China has had a one child per couple policy in effect since 1979 which continues to this day. That's 31 years. The policy has not prevented the population from growing although it has slowed the rate of growth.

Well, then it wasnt enforced! right?
im not saying its right but that if it didnt work it must have been due to lack of enforcement.
and now how gender imbalanced is their horrible country?

Yes thats what im saying.
maybe you can email the school [the library is not at the school]
but fer the heck of it:
ombudsperson@smc.edu

tell em yr impressions of this 'sustainable' city.

as well as mixing Hare Krishna 'philosophy'
and other eastern religion into his own stew.

no...email the ombudsperson or look at smc.edu website
this school has REQUIREMENTS

sorry the pc malfunctioned...
should read 'requirements for global citizenship'
the head of the student government [an x marine]
said he wanted decor in the student lounge that reflected 'diversity'.

We gotta shape up boys.
==

Towards what future? The anglo-sino neofeudal plantation. I don't think so. This thing needs to die. All of it.

Thank you for your response - I know it's not easy to admit that I have anything worth listening to. And the more we are ignored and villified the angrier we will get. We know we have the key to the survival of the West. Just take it one more step: you see the ugliness, but now see the positive side of ethnocentrism. It's what keep Societies alive for centuries and millenia. Only a people who value themselves, who think of themselves highly if not as unique have any chance of making it over the long term. The Zionists? People just like me, fanatics in other words. Yet everyone lauded them, admired them, donated to their cause. If you didn't, you were scum. So why why aren't Whites entitled to the same - FROM THEIR OWN PEOPLE?

As I've said many times, I have no problem with trade and cultural exchange between ethnes and races. Or even sharing space if it happens naturally in a border area or a port city. An interzone as William Burroughs called it. But the powers that be want to turn the whole West into a giant Marketplace. It's utterly vile -what gives them the right?

Wow - you've actually seen this? I've heard about this in China. Apparently this was one of the things that set off the Tianamen Square movement: African Students raping Chinese Girls. Now obviously, the whole thing is a disaster waiting to happen. Chinese usually get to know each other before dating. And the dating is then largely social for a while. Overt sexuality happens late in the process - if before marriage it then leads to marriage. But with Africans, it's always "hey Mama" - with attempts at full intercourse on the first or second date. So the Chinese Men, who are ethnocentric to begin with, are naturally outraged. Blacks are like this wherever they go. Sure it's cultural - because it's genetic first.
People can't belive that all these things have been studied in the laboratory and it's not just prejudice. Blacks have significantly more testosterone than Whites -and far more than East Asians. Sexual drive varies directly with the amount of this important hormone. Whites are in the middle in this, but male Chinese anger is mitigated somewhat in that Whites men are often good bread winners for their Chinese wives. But if the White is obviously just trying to get laid, the anger will be the same.

Don't believe it? If we're all the same, why do some heart medications work on Blacks and have no effect on Whites? The Left immediately felt uncomfortable when this came up - they saw the implications as they do with Black Athletic Superiority. If we're different in these ways, there's no reason to imagine that we're the same in terms of IQ. They claim to accept Darwin, but then they deny him on this. We've been separated for tens of thousands of years - for us to be the same would be very strange indeed; a complete denial of Darwinism which finds diversity amongst individuals and groups. Such diversity allows for some traits to be selected for or not. The Left is basically against all diversity - their "diversity" is just jargon, a trick to end all real diversity.

'the Swiss, WTF - WHY on Earth are they litigating about mosques in Switzerland????'

yr saying they should tolerate the minarets?
what are you saying?

'There are also interesting comments about detrimental effects of the policy'

I think you missed the #1 'detriment'...lack of females...they killed the babies [ payed for by planned parenthood and US taxpayers. the JohnBirch Society and Times/Newsweek noted this like 30 years ago]

OK so it all dies. It will die, every civilization does. But what replaces it?

We can't all walk around with our heads up our asses like James the Gymnast playing with our toys, pissing away everything we earn while things go to shit around us.

About 20 years ago i read in TimeNewsweek that some afghanistani immigrants in [nebraska?] were arrested on child molestation charges.
something about 'genital massages of infants'
they shrugged it off with 'but we do this in our country'
2 things struck me..
1...WTF are muslims from afghanistan doing moving to the usa!
2...the arrogance of the 'new' [post 1965] immigrants..no respect for the laws and customs of this country.
a far cry from peeps 'kissing the ground' at ellis island.

and hon as ive posted here before, my friend jon the realtor in santa clara[or is it clarita?]
says the only guys with a million to buy a home in yr neighborhood are asians and they pay cash.
they may then live 20 to a house with cardboard boxes in closets as commodes but thats life in silicon valley.

yr thoughts id be appreciated.

'So the message is that ethnocentrism is NOT
the "White Man's Disease"

yr homework: read ' THE DARK SIDE OF MAN'
its available cheap online.

Just shows I'm not prejudiced against other cultures - just their people being in our land. The Vedic was not only a great culture, but was once a White one. So why not throw it in - it fits. Btw, many White Nationalists love the Vedic Culture for its Social Sytem based on sublime Metaphysics. Hare Krishna is just one approach to the Vedic, a pop one to be sure, but they do introduce people to the Scriptures. It's a fun cult - the old President of the Long Beach Temple used to demand that the drugies bow down to the deities before he would sell them drugs.

Give up you prejudice and cultural atomism. Things are connected - BUT as the alchemists say, they must be properly separated before they can properly joined. Letting third worlders rampage in is not going to create an elixir but merely a toxic slude with undigested pieces of shit floating everywhere. What we want is Stew. Have some - taste and see that it's very good. There are not many truths but only One, that being known, All is Known. Such Knowers recognize each other be they East Indian Sages, American Indian Elders, or just White Trash Honkie Glue Sniffing Shamans (South Park). How is it that you do not know This?

So why why aren't Whites entitled to the same
==

Spare me. Last time I checked Whites dominate on 4 continents. There's every kind of white nation state for every kind of variation. This isn't about the 'white race', it's about thieving. It's about free rent and getting something for nothing. It's about victimizing another helpless minority and stealing everything of theirs, including their fscking gold fillings. And then feigning some imagined victimhood.

The simple truth is, you're nothing but a thieving barbarous beast. If the white race was really of a concern for you, you'd find some whore fraulein and get busy. As it is, the only thing that's really on your mind is grabbing and thieving and victimizing others for your own pleasure.

But what replaces it?
==

Something clean. Something moral. Something alive.

Something clean. Something moral. Something alive.
- Mika

It seems to me that every civilization that ever existed talked virtue but walked barbarism. But compared to 80% of the world this place is clean moral and alive at least in my opinion. That's why, when these liberal multiculti nitwits start pushing multiculti ideas, it gives me cramps. They want me and my parents to live as they did in their home country, to celebrate their old culture? Why? Then why the fuck would they have bothered to immigrate here? Have these lib morons got any clue what my parents' home country was like?

For my parents this country was a gigantic improvement. They've never stopped telling me how lucky I am to have been born here to the point where I was sick to death of hearing it.

So if you have any specific suggestions I'm all ears.

I do business with a number of Chinese. The second generation speaks perfect English, no accent. But when I have to negotiate with them, I say what I have to say, and they get together in front of me and speak Mandarin. I have no idea what they're saying, and am at a serious disadvantage. But I do like the Chinese, they are an incredible people. It's just annoying they don't speak English in public, which I believe is an insult. I swear someday to learn Mandarin and surprise the shit out of them.

Their customs are intriguing, although sometimes disgusting. Occasionally I go to the casino in Connecticut (ok so I'm not perfect). Several times in the men's bathroom I've seen Chinese men hawking phlegm into the washbasin - where I wash my hands, and I've seen them blow snot out of their nose into the sink as well. Once I saw an older Chinese man take of his shoes and wash his feet in the sink as well. Ain't cultural diversity grand? Maybe it's just payback for my own tolerance of other cultures.

Used to be that an average adult had 2.8 kids.
=========

That would be 5.6 kids per couple. Was that actually true?

So what restaurant do you recommend for my shawarma sandwich fetish? :)

My parent's bought the house in Cupertino in 1970 for $50,000. They moved out of state in 1990 and sold the house for $675,000. Last summer, the house was on the market again for $1.6 million. It sold after three weeks on the market to a Chinese family.

I live in San Jose between Willow Glen and the Almaden Valley. Asians and Indians are buying up Almaden because of Leland High School (of Pat Tillman fame), because of the excellent test scores. Now they have a crappy football team.
But with the cuts in San Jose Unified school district, who knows what will happen?

My particular neighborhood, according to the latest census data, is 25% hispanic, 4% asian, 2% black, and the rest white.

I was surprised to find out a few weeks ago that my son was a member of the Black Student Union at his high school (he needed money for a T-shirt).
They had a community outreach at the beginning of the school year, and one of the kids in Jeremy's physics class invited him to attend. He faithfully attends the meeting every lunchtime on Wednesday. They debate issues and since my son loves to discuss/debate, the meetings are lively and interesting. One of the officers suggested he be president next year, but alas, he is graduating. About half of the kids in the club are African Africans--which means they get good grades and have good manners.

Once I saw an older Chinese man take of his shoes and wash his feet in the sink as well.
==========

I can't speak for the old Chinese dude but...
In Nov '09 my wife and I were in Dubai for two weeks. We were in one of their huge spectacular shopping malls and I had to "use the facilities." I walked in and there was a swarthy complected man, obviously a local/muslim, and he was standing at the wash basins on one foot with the other foot up in the sink. I'm thinking .. "WTF? This is a first."

The answer is, the muslims wash their feet before entering the mosque and they have mosques everywhere including in shopping malls. The Asian Indian population in Dubai on work visas far exceeds the Arab nationals and I began to observe that they have some similar ritualistic foot washing practices, generally brief and perfunctory, before entering their Hindu temples.

Ask most any impotent Chinese man--you know, those low-testosterone humans from the most populated region on earth --if they would rather have some ground up Rhinoceros horn or Vitamin V and one will witness a profound admiration of the West.

"yr saying they should tolerate the minarets?
what are you saying?"

No, Asia - never said that, never implied it.

My point was that the Swiss are a white nation. Why is the mosque issue even open for discussion in Switzerland? THAT'S MY QUESTION.

Vlad keeps jumping up and down for a white Nation inside these formerly united States. That's never happening because:
1. Our Constitution does not support it
2. No judicial precedents since the Civil War support it.
3. I can't be forced on the country - short of collapse, race wars, and lots of death all around - things to which I am opposed, BTW.

Ah, but - Switzerland, Vlad me' Lad - there's your white Nation. So whites, blacks, Asians - everybody is entitled to their own nation.

Case closed? Probably not
Too bad

So what restaurant do you recommend for my shawarma sandwich fetish? :)
=========

I don't know about Toronto where Cash is (I think?) but here in central NJ we've got great ethnic restaurants of every sort including Lebanese and Greek where I'm sure you can indulge your fetish. And to make it doubly pleasant for you, we're up to our eyeballs in Jews.

Asia bleats, "China has had a one child per couple policy in effect since 1979 which continues to this day. That's 31 years. The policy has not prevented the population from growing although it has slowed the rate of growth."

That is a contradiction: if the population growth rate has slowed, it has prevented the population from growing {at the previous rate}.

There is a time lag between reduction of the birth rate to the level of the death rate. Eventually, it gets there if 1 child/woman is maintained.

Population growth rate- Defined
The average annual percent change in the population, resulting from a surplus (or deficit) of births over deaths and the balance of migrants entering and leaving a country. The rate may be positive or negative. The growth rate is a factor in determining how great a burden would be imposed on a country by the changing needs of its people for infrastructure (e.g., schools, hospitals, housing, roads), resources (e.g., food, water, electricity), and jobs.

Population Growth Rates:
China: 0.494% (2010 est.)
USA: 0.97% (2010 est.)

So yes, China's overall population is still growing, albeit slower than the US, and this is probably due to a number of factors, namely, people still having more than one child, immigration, life extension, etc. These numbers in fact validate the one-child policy and demonstrate the mathematical validity of the concept. For example, substitute the previous growth rate (or any growth rate) to the population 31 years ago, and you have


Population ^ ({growth rate} * {X years}) = Population size after X years

GAFC, Asia. ("Grab a fucking calculator")

Asia could not keep his ignorance contained, and revealed: "Well, then it wasnt enforced! right?"

Wrong, Bitch!

China enforced 1-child-policy through a system of social, economic, cultural, and judicial policies and programs. Look, you might as well stop calling yourself "Asia" if you know absolutely nothing about it.

Asia further established new benchmarks in personal stupidity by touting, "im not saying its right but that if it didnt work it must have been due to lack of enforcement."

It did work, it was because of enforcement.


Mr. Asia also says, "and now how gender imbalanced is their horrible country?"

Sex ratio (total population)
China: 1.06 male(s)/female (2010 est.)
USA: 0.97 male(s)/female (2010 est.)

In other words, no big deal. If nothing else it might indicate why the USA is so full of pussies. And by pussies I mean bitches looking to give birth so as to experience the miracle and wonder of femininity.

PLEASE DO YOUR OWN HOMEWORK BEFORE OPENING YOUR IGNORANT HOLE - THANKS!

Free stats! Stats for free! Cia World Factbook: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/ (Your IP will be logged, bitch!)

Net migration rate:
USA: 4.25 migrant(s)/1,000 population (2010 est.)
China: -0.34 migrant(s)/1,000 population (2010 est.)

SSHHHHH - SJ, don't go talking like this around our racists:

"About half of the kids in the club are African Africans--which means they get good grades and have good manners."

===========

And of course all white kids always get good grades and have good manners. Mostly due to their larger cranial volume and low testosterone levels - 'specially the white girls! hahahohohehe

I have not continued my gene line :-) . Neither has my brother, as far as we know....

Funny. I've never even had a twinge, not even a passing fancy. When asked, I often say "If I had kids I'd still be in jail." I've never had the urge to replicate myself. My 89 year old father is irritating the hell out of me. Suddenly, out of the clear blue in the last 6 months he's started moaning about not having grandchildren. A little late in the game to bring that up. I'm 61.

I wonder ... my Dad had 17 brothers and sisters. All single births, all the same parents. Other than one of them, none of them had more then 2 kids, and many, none. I've lost track of all my first and second cousins so I don't know about them.

So, our branch is lopped off the tree of mankind. What is lost? Well, a really good longevity gene. And, a great general health gene. Things better lost? A tendency toward diabetes (I dodged the bullet, apparently, but still cary the gene) and gene for vitiligo (progressive loss of pigment. If I live to be 200, I'll be an albino.) Probably lots of other good and bad genes that are less apparent. Oh! A really bad one ends with us. A predisposition to alcoholism.

Population Growth Rates TOP 10 Crib Sheet

(Rank, % growth rate)

1 Niger
3.66
(Religions: Haoussa 55.4%, Djerma Sonrai 21%, Tuareg 9.3%, Peuhl 8.5%, Kanouri Manga 4.7%, other 1.2%... WTF. Okay. There will be zero traction for UN population control measures in this country.


2 Uganda
3.56
(Roman Catholic 41.9%, Protestant 42% (Anglican 35.9%, Pentecostal 4.6%, Seventh Day Adventist 1.5%), Muslim 12.1%, other 3.1%, none 0.9% (2002 census. Rationale for growth rate- Notice the proliferation of sub-cults of Christianity. A country with insane people believing insane things will conduct themselves insanely.)

3 Burundi
3.56
(Christian 67% (Roman Catholic 62%, Protestant 5%), indigenous beliefs 23%, Muslim 10%. Obviously what is happening here is that the competition between Allah and Jesus is being waged in womb-space. Who can overpopulate faster? Which species of human bacteria will survive to the next level?)

4 United Arab Emirates
3.56
(Here he men cane bitches in the streets and enforce cultural norms like male domination while preserving a thriving industry of Eastern european and Philippino sex slaves and prostitutes in illegal underground clubs where they sip Crystal and revel in the lifestyles of America's hip-hop culture.)

5 Kuwait
3.50
(Fuck yeah! Times is good. Growth rate probably due to the fact that rich muslims live all over the world because they have lots o cash)

6 Gaza Strip
3.29
(How does a postage stamp like Gaza churn out a 3.29% growth rate? Easy, every woman has 6 kids! Damn- the Israelis aren't kicking these people's asses enough, I guess. No wonder they built a wall- I'd do the same thing. Fuck em, they're crazy ass God believers.)

7 Ethiopia
3.20
(How does a broke, starving ass country like Ethiopia maintain a 3.2% growth rate? Easy! By Muslim rape and circumcision, also, 1 cattle is worth 5 women.)

8 Mayotte
3.17
(Mayotte is a tiny island about 10 miles across in the Madagascar strait off Eastern Africa. How does it maintain a 3.17% birth rate? Easy, they're Muslim 97%, Christian (mostly Roman Catholic) 3%. Thats an island inhabited 100% by crazy fucking religious morons! Wonder what the environment is like?)

9 Western Sahara
3.17
(I have no fucking idea how this growth rate is maintained other than the fact that Ethiopia is nearby and Muslim men usually have lots of cattle to trade for bitches, God willing.)

10 Congo, Democratic Republic of the
3.17
(Congo's Growth rate is somewhat legitamite due to the unfortunate occurance of extremely late-term abortions performed on a large percentage of the population using machetes and Kitchen knives, and each sub-ethnic group needs to replenish their standing and hopping armies.)

"I'm afraid only one higher authority can make the population decrease - nature - via lethal pandemic, depleted agricultural land, plant pandemic, climate change, tipping point in environmental damage, asteroid strike, mega solar flare, mega volcanic eruption, etc., etc"

Yes, most of those have happened before, and a lot of folks think something like that is coming up soon in the form of severe solar flare..polar shift and mini ice age. Not so sure myself.

Also, if you check out the axial rotations of asteroids you might conclude that there is another "higher authority" that has taken a dislike to populations in this star system. These motions support an exploded planet hypothesis.

Ancient legends and ruins in the middle east suggest a more recent effort to depopulate (2-6k BCE). A few chapters of one of many books (i have no connection) documenting this can be found here:

http://theageofdesolation.com/Book-Source.html

Will they be back? Who knows?

If neither happens, then resource wars might lead to designer viruses or nukes being used.

If left to mother nature the population crash might be further off in time, but just as likely. Exponential growth in nature is usually followed by crash.

You say "my Dad had 17 brothers and sisters" and then say "our branch is lopped off the tree of mankind".

Seventeen brothers and sisters means that your fathers genes are doing just fine. I can't say about your mother because you have not given any details but even with out them the story the same but maybe a higer climb up the genealogical ladder is needed to prove it.

Chromosomes are like cards in a gigantic shoe or deck and each card has multiple copies in the shoe. LEWISLUCANBOOKS is a unique hand from the deck but the loss of LEWISLUCANBOOKS does not mean the end of the genetic line for the chromosomes. Lewis yours are doing just fine.

Ego want us to believe we are all special when in truth we are all lucky to be alive and that's all. A need to feel special fuels a false belief that the cards which make up the individual poker hands that make each of us are endowed with magical mystical properties.

In truth the only thing magical and mystical is the unique combination and how well you play your hand before you move on.

Much of commonly belief is actually quite insane. (K-dog)

"Asoka stand up and take a bow. How many others posting to this blog can say they HAVE NOT personally continued their gene line. A show of hands; Asoka's and mine, any others?" -SNAFU

Situation sub-normal here, as well.
No further "growth" of my specific family's djinn pool. Ma 'n' Pa had 5 chilluns; but out of us'n's they gits only one grandkid (and them with only the one great-grand-niece). So quite a net loss there, BUT, I have 45 1st cousins, and they gots PANT-LOADS of spawn! (Plus, we're a long-lived bunch of bozos.)

Hey, we tried, we really did. ;o)

Pretty funny wrap-up of the growth of the "human stain"!

I'm glad that those on the growth curve have special dispensations from gawd, and are not spilling their precious seed upon the ground! ;o)

I'm no sociologist, but there are supposed to be real reasons that human populations under stress have more offspring.

And other real reasons that affluent populations have fewer offspring.

Of course, feminine empowerment and access to reliable birth control (and the intelligence to use them regardless of what Church Fathers say) are factors in these equations, too.

Sociologists/somedamnexperts say World and US populations should *peak?* at some very high level around 2050 or so.

I wonder if that's just wishful thinking, though.

Or cataclysmic collapse thinking?

Interesting, Prog.

I just reported on an event that happened at my work, when one of my co-workers used the word, "nigger" in front of one of my other co-worker, a black woman.

Contrary to the beliefs of Vlad, and others on this blog, my black co-worker was polite and restrained.

I used to be a band parent, and we took our inter-racial band to a neighboring town for a parade, a town that still has the KKK in it. One of our kids saw a stand selling Confederate symbols, and he expressed fear, not hostility.

There is another town that we went to for band competitions, but not parades, since the assholes there screamed "nigger" and threw things at our black kids.

I honestly don't know how black people stand it so politely. It pissed me off then, and it pisses me off now that our kids were treated like that.

Just like the black man I talked about a few weeks ago, who visited his son, bloody and handcuffed, in the ER, and still had the presence of mind to speak politely to the cop responsible. While I had confronted and fought with the cop, and it wasn't even my son!

I realize that I was much freer to confront the cop than the father was, due to my color and job. That pisses me off too!

And, by the way, the next time the cop came in, someone asked about a pin he was wearing. Turns out that they chose him to have special training, where "I get to wear black pajamas and kick down doors". I forget the acronym.

Really! Just like the Phoenix Program in Vietnam, and Battalion whatever in El Salvador, the pick the most vicious men in uniform to train for further repression.

It's definitely coming home, folks.

I have read articles by and about Chinese people born since 1979, and they frequently mention siblings. I'm like, WTF?

Apparently, the one child policy doesn't apply to rural people, and it clearly isn't enforced as strongly as the John Birchers claim.

My Dad was one of ten kids, and I'm one of 11 grandchildren. His siblings weren't inclined to reproduce like dear old mom and dad, either. The only one that produced three lived in a small town in Utah, and stuck to her Mormon religion. But still only had three!

My husband is one of 6 kids, and my kids are part of the 6 produced by him and his siblings. Catholics, most of them, but not inclined to reproduce like mom and dad.

It is true that crazy Christians reproduce indiscrimately in an attempt to outbreed us liberals. I know this because I work with some of them.

And I accidentally made a snide comment about them breeding like rabbits while one of their kids was standing behind me. Whoops!

However. She hasn't married and started breeding yet, unlike her older brother. And there are 5 more younger than her. We'll see how that plays out.

yes if the popualtion in China [a ruined,horrible place] is increasing...WELL ITS NOT FROM IMMIGRATION TO CHINA!

'us liberals.
And I accidentally made a snide comment '
Yes liberals are very elitist and snide.
i wholeheartedly agree.

as far as whites [rich/poor, christian/non]
up till 1960 or so the average # of children in a Us family was 4.
now its 2 but the population is growing like crazy.
due to you 'liberals' who love the poor/oppressed and bring em on in.millions a year of em.
they breed like rats!

keep up the 'hate white christian ' thing, it besuits you.

Thanks for the comments, Wage. I read the blog entry about your coworker "D?" was it? She sounds a little bit clueless. Or else - young. I checked out the use of the N-word in question on urbandictionary.com. Use of that word is shifting - yet again - to include other meanings than as a reference and insult for black people.

============

On an unrelated note, you're the second poster to make reference to the John Birch society in connection with Chinese birth control. I wasn't familiar with a connection, so I tried to GOOGLE it up and didn't find anything.

Can someone explain the connection with a web reference?

And I should know all things John Birch. I actually went to the same all boys high school in Macon, GA that he attended. Attendance there could make one crazy. John Birch also grew up Southern Baptist, as did I. This also will make one crazy - if one is not careful.

I'm afraid something affected the unfortunate Mr. Birch and some of his followers.

Jury is still out on me.

Asia bleats, "China has had a one child per couple policy in effect since 1979 which continues to this day.
==========

Bustin, it was I, not Asia, who bleated the above sentence. Asia merely quoted me and then drew certain conclusions from what appear to be counter-intuitive results of the policy.

The first thing you need to do before opening "your ignorant hole" is go back, find and read my post and, in particular, read the link I provided.

Your statement that "That is a contradiction: if the population growth rate has slowed, it has prevented the population from growing {at the previous rate}." misses the point entirely. Whatever the population was in 1979 when the "one child" policy was implemented, it is considerably higher today. Currently it is growing by about 17 million people per year.

The point of all this population discussion is that the earth needs not just a reduction in the rate of growth or even a gentle decline from year to year in total headcount. What I think we are agreed to here on the blog is that we need a MASSIVE DECLINE and we need it NOW ... like say 5.7 billion fewer heads in 100 or a few hundred years. Otherwise we are going to utterly deplete earth's resources - coal, oil, nat gas, metals, water, forests, etc and destroy the soil needed to grow our food. At least that is our fear.

Asia speculated that the reason there was no net decline in China's population was their inability to enforce the policy. I'm sure he did not mean the authorities were totally ineffective but rather less than 100% effective. So it is possible, if I may just dream up numbers to make a point (since I don't have actual numbers), that in 1979 before the policy went into effect that the avg children per couple was 3 and despite a goal of 1 they were only able to achieve 2. Further, lets say in 1979 there were 110 males to every 100 females (since we know that in Chinese culture boys are preferred and girls are often aborted or done away with via infanticide). And further, lets say (using the ratio YOU provided) that today there are 106 males to every 100 females. That would mean there was a growing proportion of females over the 31 year period that could hook up and have a child. And further, we all know that China has experienced an "economic miracle" over the past 3 decades and perhaps that has increased life expectancy and accounts for the drastically growing relative population of aged people.

Put all of these possibilities together and what you get is a population that continues to grow despite a "one child" policy, albeit at a slower rate than existed in 1979.

I think if we knew the truth of the matter we'd find that 'two people have one child = lower population' is waaay too simple.

Asia awaits your apology.

This organization is dedicated to returning Sierra Club policy on immigration to sustainability.
http://www.susps.org/
Link explains what happened to cause the SC to deviate from stated goals.

We've discussed the California Green Party - wonder if there is a similar explanation for their *inconsistencies* on uncontrolled immigration?

And here is a weblist of organizations dedicated to population controls or one sort or another.

http://www.google.com/Top/Society/Issues/Environment/Population/Pro-Population_Control/

I refuse to sit around and passively wait for some sort of massive die-off. Uncontrolled dying is against my view of how humans should try to face an uncertain future.

And to you knee-jerk liberals out there - I had the ability and intelligence to control my family size. Why should I not help others do the same?

Anyone know of one of these organizations that is humane in its approach and worthy in its use of donated money?

Just my observation, but African/African kids carry themselves differently. They have the best posture in the entire school.

When I observe people in different cities, there are different ways people dress/carry themselves, regardless of race. San Francisco is different than New York. Compared to San Francisco style, folks in San Jose are hicks.

The John Birch knew about the Conspiracy long before the rest of America did. And for this they mocked to scorn by the liberal pundits for decades. They knew all about the Fed and the fake money ever since they started. Kunstler and his cohort owe them alot of apologies.

Seems to be a lot of talk about the dieoff this week. For those interested Two famous mathematicians Vito Volterra of Italy and Vladimir Kostitzin a Russian who lived most of his life in France collaborated in the 1930's (Paris) to study the integro-differential equation which describes dieoff:

1/N * dN/dt = a - bN - c [integral of 0 to t goes here] N dt

The 'a' term gives Malthusian exponential growth in the solution.

The 'b' term limits growth by providing a crowding coefficient in the solution. Enough crowding leads to equilibrium.

The 'c' term is the effect of accumulated pollution which eventually kills the population off.

The equation has been successfully applied to studies of bacterial growth and extinction.

Don't worry, the Blacks will protect you from all those rabbit breedin White Christian Thugs. Oh God, I'd like to throw some holy water on you. You'd probably shrivel up like the Wicked Witch of the West.

I wonder if some of the posters calling for a drastic reduction in human population would be willing to lead by example, like, say, the Buddhist monk who set himself on fire in protest of the Vietnam war?

You are of your father the devil and the desire of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the begining, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

John 8:44

Leading by example is authentic enough but never lead by example before people who don't care. In this situation tend to your own garden.

Oh, yeah. I understand that the family gene pool is pretty well represented. And, even if I were to spawn, only half of my genetic material would be passed on.

Mom's side: crazed Finns, a few Norwegians and a Laplandic branch that would probably make for some pretty interesting DNA testing. That's the side I get the vitiligo from. Grandpa had it and out of 5 kids and 13 grandkids, I was the only one to hit the lucky genetic combination :-) . There's a gene for multiple births on that side that hasn't expressed itself in my generation. Maybe a good thing. There was a case of quints in the 1870s. Sad. They went almost full term and were good birth weight. But, they were born in the howling wilderness that was Minnesota at that time. They couldn't keep them warm.

What's interesting is that grandma had a hysterectomy after her last delivery. She had pre-arranged it with the doc. At home, on the kitchen table. 1927 rural Minnesota. What surprises me is that 1.) I didn't know they were doing them that far back and 2.) that a woman had that much control of her body at that place in that time. Mom says grandpa was pissed, but got over it. Grandma just said 5 was enough and she didn't want to be old and used up before her time.

Dad's side are Volga-Germans. Or, sometimes called Germans from Russia. I have a sneaking suspicion that there's a lot of other genetic material mixed in there. But, my grandparents were first cousins (long story) so, everything tends to be a little, er, intensified on the gene front.

Peoples with a future respond that way, most modern day Whites seem to respond the opposite by "not bringing any children into this terrible world". Well, if we survive, alot of degenerate White genetic material will be culled from our pool including gays and lesbian genes. Every dark cloud has a silver lining.

"if I were to spawn, only half of my genetic material would be passed on"

Actually that would depend on how many times you spawned, it could be 100% easily enough. However my point is that ALL your genes are very well represented in the tribe gene pool and are being passed on without you having to do a thing. You are unique but your genes are not. This is what genetics teaches us.

Since our genes are all well represented we can all relax and devote ourselves to peace justice and the pursuit of truth.

Cheese puff anyone?

Buck Stud sed, "I wonder if some of the posters calling for a drastic reduction in human population would be willing to lead by example, like, say, the Buddhist monk who set himself on fire in protest of the Vietnam war?"

I have been willing to lead by example.

I poured gasoline all over my genes and lit them on fire! I have no children and have no expectation for having children!

The real passing realization in life as far as genes are concerned is that we are all effectively each other's "1st cousins", and are all basically of the same evolutionary value.

Not one iota of your DNA is different or special.

However, as a population, we all matter. Only when human groups descend to around 80-100 individuals they are doomed to extinction.

So two billion is healthy.

Qtip shed, "(Some bullshit showing he doesn't understand what he's talking about. The simple fucking answer is true, that one child, one woman puts world population under 2 billion at century's end with only the variable of life extension moderating the decline in overall population. So shut it.) (Apologies to Asia.)

The people most likely to adopt a one child per couple voluntarily are Whites. And unfortunately, there are so many minorities in America now that closing the borders wont save us. It's like game theory - you win by getting others to do the right thing while you don't. And as far as playing a smart game of poker - Whites are at the bottom of the pile.

It is tragic: the world does need to lose alot of people. But those who conscientously try to do the right thing will probably end up losing their Country or even their very existence as a people. The dark skinned don't care about the environment. The East Asians have the potential to - but after the repression of China, the Chinese in the West may want to breed freely and in greater numbers than one child per couple. But it is the Muslims and the Mexicans who consciously use demographics as a weapon and who will continue to have the highest birth rates in the West.

How is the Rosicrucian Museum?

hey, if anybody's awake, they are showing Earth 2100, on the History International channel, right now. I just tuned in, but I think JHK is on this, at some point. just a heads up.

Too bad we didn't follow thru with what your hero Abraham Lincoln intended: repatriate the Congoids back to Africa. Most of the great men of the day were in accord and this great work was begun. But Lincoln died and the ultimately the Dark Brotheroods and the Yankee Traders were able to subvert this noble project. These moral paragons kept slave trading even after the war.

Haven't you heard? The Constitution is a living document! Or do you possibly have more integrity than that? Do you care about Original Intent? Then reread Jefferson: morality is for the living; so is the Constitution. The root from which both proceed, the first moral imperative, is survival as a People. Everything else flows from that and apart from that it's all meaningless. Guy, you have to go back to basics - because right now you haven't a clue.

The Whites of North America are profoundly demoralized. Their leaders have shamelessly betrayed them by importing minorities in to replace them while simultaneously shipping their jobs overseas. And then their patriotism is shamelessly played with and dumbed down to keep them complicit and lineing up to be cannon fodder in the Zionist's wars.

Why should they study hard when there are fewer and fewer jobs and the non Whites get preference? Alot of strange things happen in Canada, Cash. Remember Ernst Zundel? A seventy pound bomb found its way through the mail sytem right to his apartment in Toronto. Lucky for him, he got suspiscious and called the police. The bomb was very powerful and would have killed not only him but anybody walking by on the street or in the apartments next door.

Last year, Jeff Hughes was gunned down at Nanaimo on Vancover Island by the RCMP. Mr Hughes had called the police to complain about noise from his neighbors and out of nowhere about 10 of the RCMP showed up loaded for bear. One of the female Mounties felt threatened by the unarmed, 135 pound Mr Hughes and emptied her firearm into him. She has not been dismissed or disciplined but only removed to the wilds of Ontario. After all Mr Hughes was a "Nazi" and thus was executed. You may be interested to know that Mr Hughes took long bus trips to show moral support for White Men who were up on charges by Human Rights Tribunal.

If anything, the Aliens have even more control over Canada than the United States. The net effect is kind of demoralizing. I admit that what you indicated is also in play: just plain old decadence born of affluence.

"as far as genes are concerned is that we are all effectively each other's "1st cousins", and are all basically of the same evolutionary value."

Exactly Right

Another brilliant post by that modern-day Jerimiah JHK. Do I hear Johnny Rotten in the background crooning "No future, no future for you" while the great North American economy hits an ice berg and sinks to the bottom of the North Atlantic like a modern-day Titanic? Of course, one man's pain is another man's happiness. Apparently, in the midst of all this chaos there is rejoicing in those states and provinces where Potash is plentiful and worries about the world's food supply push the price of this humble commodity into the stratosphere. Personally, if I lived in a Potash-rich region of North America I'd think twice before popping the cork on that vintage Dom Perrignon. Your grocery bill is about to get a lot bigger and your wallet a lot thinner as hyper-inflation eats away at your income. As Johnny Rotten would put it, you've been made made into a moron, a potential h-bomb ready to go off at the slightest provocation.

You are a piece of work, Vlad.

I ask for someone to give me a web reference on the connection between the John Birch society and Chinese abortions and birth control and here's what you respond with:

"The John Birch knew about the Conspiracy long before the rest of America did. And for this they mocked to scorn by the liberal pundits for decades"

WTH are you talking about, man. I mean, I appreciate the response - but it has nothing to do with my question.

And I'll go you one better, since you brought it up. OK, sure the John Birchers knew all about the "*conspiracy*" - well, alrighty, then.

You know who else knew about it? Robert E Lee and Jefferson Davis. They lost, too.

You've GOT to deal with reality or reality will deal with you.

=============
Mississippi is never going to be your dream black colony. That sort of *dream/nightmare* could only be forced to happen in an energy rich world - by govt. action - which is why I mentioned the US Constitution as an impediment.

And I'll grant you that populations may separate by culture OR race - in an energy descent South. But the separations will be by *sections of towns* or something like that.

How do I know this? Because we've already got it, in small towns, and large cities across the South. We've got a tradition of getting along - in general. And in an energy descent world we're going to keep doing it - to the best of our abilities - BECAUSE WE WILL HAVE NO OTHER CHOICE.

Change the subject Vlad. Otherwise you're just demonstrating that you don't know what you're talking about.

Or, maybe you need to talk to some born and bred white separatists from Mississippi for a dose of reality to go with your interior Washington/Oregon theorizing.

Interesting, Buck:
=========
"I wonder if some of the posters calling for a drastic reduction in human population would be willing to lead by example, like, say, the Buddhist monk who set himself on fire in protest of the Vietnam war?"
===========

There is a subset of posters on here - who express a sentiment something along the lines of (paraphrased) "The situation is so hopeless - why don't we all just die and get it over with, already!"

I don't understand this impulse, but I'd like to understand where it comes from.

Is it associated with being childless - in reality or in practice?
Is it associated with atheism?

I don't know - just posing a question.

PoC,
I realize you're just trying to help, and to get all pertinent info into a large, inclusive basket, but you're talking about a hide-bound, Johnny-one-note here. I think you'll just have to let it go and scroll past the bovine bloviation, okay?

As k-dog sez:
"Leading by example is authentic enough but never lead by example before people who don't care. In this situation tend to your own garden."

...And I would add that letting lunatics uncover themselves is a "good" thing. What was that about "keeping your friends close; but your enemies closer" (where you can observe their actions minutely, and prepare counter-measures accordingly)?

Those who would cleave to a suicidal political philosophy are no "friends" of mine. This overarching slavery to an ideology denotes a serious lack of flexibility that will be [sooner or not-much-later] fatal. Please believe that it is the fondest desire of fanatics to take as many people down with them as possible. We've seen this movie before...

There will be no revolution, Americans will just roll over and take it in the ass some more.
I don't know the reason, but most people don't want to be awakened from their media induced stupor.
The best we can hope for is to stay one step ahead of the gangs that will see explosive growth once the great Ponzi Scheme locks up the system. In all my years I’ve never seen such a dark promise for our future.

==========
"The people most likely to adopt a one child per couple voluntarily are Whites. And unfortunately, there are so many minorities in America now that closing the borders wont save us."
==========

Who you mean US? You got a mouse in your pocket?

But seriously, you are correct - because closing the borders won't save White Civilization in the United States. We're done for.

Closing the borders and stopping immigration, however, might save Civilization in the US - which just might save Civilization on the Planet.

==========
Here's a hypothetical for you. Vlad, you're the last pure *white* man on earth, facing the last *dark* man on Earth in a fight to the finish.

Your balls are shot off (ouch! sorry dude, its only hypothetical) - but otherwise you feel GREAT - and you have no Killing Vengeance in your heart. (absurdly hypothetical, but go with it, please)

You have a clear killing shot on the last man on Earth who can reproduce.

If you pull the trigger - all human life on Earth will go extinct.

Do you pull the trigger?


Um, Prog, is there a woman in the picture?

Cause otherwise it doesn't matter!

I would volunteer to have Dorothy throw a bucket of water on me to destroy my evil wickedness. I love my life and family, but really, keeping someone around until they're past 80 and not able to properly take care of themselves seems utterly stupid. I have a strict "absolutely NO artificial means" to be used to keep me "living" in my will. It's (or had better be) iron clad. In all seriousness, why can't assisted suicide for the aged and/ or hopelessly infirmed be implemented? I know the argument about "kicking granny off life support without her permission" thingy. Why can't my doctor give me a simple dose of cyanide for when it's no longer a good game for me? I'd much rather die on my own terms rather than have family, friends, doctors, etc. decide this for me. In light of current statistics, I should have been dead nigh seven or eight years ago. Childless people should think about this doubly. I don't know about you, Lew, but I'd much rather die in my own bed than in a geriatric ward with 300 or 400 of my fellow octogenarians coughing, wheezing, snoring, etc. And I certainly don't like the idea of being a burden to my kids or grandkids. Just a little cud to ruminate on, CFN.

Yeah - I started to spin out a more emotional picture for Vlad - with his one daughter - beautiful, apple of his eye (coincidentally with 1/2 of his WHITE gene pool) but the story started looking too complicated

Turnabout's fair play. Would I take the shot?
well?

Sadly - probably I would. But I'm a mean Scotch-Irish white guy.

And pragmatic - so I'd take the shot and then start a *world-wide* hunt for one more man who could reproduce.

Or something - as I said it's hypothetical.

But yeah Wage - a world without women is a genuine Hell not worth living, in my book!

Nice counterpoints, O3:
=======
PoC,
I realize you're just trying to help, and to get all pertinent info into a large, inclusive basket,
========

Yeah - actually I'm trying to understand what's in my own mind by probing around in the minds of others - including the "johnny one notes."

So, thank you for your support!

Well, the "revolutionary moment" is nearly always a condition of unrelenting misery, wherein giant lies and promises are flouted by various "saviors" (who are/will be the willing puppets of greedy gangsters).

The real PTB come in the form of rapacious capitalists. Let's just call 'em parasites.

Here's a nice nutshell of what it's all about. (Q. will especially enjoy this short subject on his beloved, and oh-so-benevolent uber-wealthy killers.)

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article27083.htm

Good God, Myrtle - cyanide??

I think we could find something a lot less painful and more fun - any number of opiates, for example.

Seriously, I've told any primary care physician that I've ever had that he/she better make a note that I better NOT be in pain in the hospital - if it can possibly be avoided.

And that I will HAUNT him if I can arrange it if he/she lets me die in pain. And Wage, I'm talking hospice type situations here - last days stuff - not the sort of general "discomfort" generally associated with medical care. ;-)

==============
On another note, yeah - if I'm sick and a burden with no hope of recovery - I'll be ready for that assisted suicide thing.

But I don't want anybody to be rushing me into it, so to speak. And I want GOOD drugs, you know what I mean.
==============
But I expect to live to be 100. And I come from a long line of people who fought to get as close to 100 as possible.

I keep thinking about some overpopulated seal colony that hit the news a few years ago. Some bright bulb of a marine fisheries officer had the bright idea of depopulating the colony by killing the oldest individuals first. And what happened was that the whole colony suffered terrible starvation and may have not survived in the end, because of the lost knowledge of food sources, etc.

Point of the story is that there is unappreciated wisdom in the elderly - and I hope to live so long that I look wise just for being alive. LOL

So I'm reactive to this "drop dead at 70" sort of talk.

Qtip shed, "(Some bullshit showing he doesn't understand what he's talking about.
===========

Bustin, I'll make this my last post on the subject of "one woman one child" so as not to bore everyone to tears.

You continue to not get the point, which is this:

People, such as Tripp, who appear to know what they're talking about concerning the carrying capacity of the earth from a feed-the-masses perspective, are telling us earth's population needs to drop from 6.7B to 1B or less and needs to do so pronto. There simply isn't enough water and potash, etc to maintain current population in the style to which we're accustomed and surely not enough to handle the 10B to 15B population we are headed for.

All other things held unchanged, simple arithmetic tells us that one child per woman would shrink the population rather quickly. But the problem is getting every man and woman on earth to go along with this for the next hundred years in the face of resulting untold unknown forms of collateral damage from the policy. It's absurd to believe this is possible. If a brutal totalitarian regime in China has been only partially successful in 31 years (i.e. slowing the growth rate but not achieving actual decline) what are the odds for success everywhere else ... especially given mankind's drive to procreate?

If mother nature doesn't take care of this problem first - which she will - I say "bring on the 100-mile wide asteroid."

Pro, I can definitely go along with you on the "live long and prosper" angle. I do not mean to imply that I want to be "taken out" by a sniper. I still have most of my marbles (although my latest shipment of smokage will be delivered - imagine THAT! late this afternoon to my own humble abode via "hubby". Sometimes it's nice to have a man around the house, except when it isn't :)

You seem to have done, from what I've read, a fair amount of preparation, what with land, children, a good wife, etc. Point is, you do still have something to give still (labor, a fairly high degree of intellect, perserverence, etc.) I only meant to say that for me, when the balance of the work my brain and body can do falls toward Hades, it's only natural to want or need to "check out of this Heartbreak Hotel"!

That's right I'm in Toronto.

Half the population of the city is foreign born and the greater Toronto area is over 5 million people so we've got every ethnic cuisine under the sun. The best ones are small mom and pop outfits. And we have a fairly large Jewish population. Mika, you can feast here to your heart's content.

Interesting people too. One couple from Afghanistan ran a nearby diner for several years. Great pork souvlaki (they're Muslim but cater to local tastes). I had some interesting conversations with them. They said there's no way the US wants to catch or kill Osama because then, in their words, the movie's over. So meanwhile everyone is distracted while they're robbing you blind. Another couple from Vietnam ran a dim sum place in Chinatown for around 25 years. The grandfather used to come and sit with us to shoot the breeze while we ate. Told us about life in Vietnam during the war and their episode as boat people which is how they got here. Another young chap from Algeria used to run a basement restaurant that did a lot of tagines. He was a tremendous cook. We'd go there early when the place wasn't busy and he'd come over and chat. If you show some interest people like to tell their stories. You could spend a lifetime listening. People say, and I agree, that this is an ugly city. It's no place for tourists or for a visit but it's a good place to work and there's a lot of fascinating people.

The Rosecrucian Museum is fine. It's located in one of San Jose's most charming neighborhoods, the Rose Garden. Houses there were built in the 20's to 40's and thus are unique and cozy.

The museum itself is a bit cheesy--but so is the famous Winchester Mystery House, nevertheless the Egyptian Museum a great destination for families with younger children.

SJmom

If only I had the charm and tactfulness of Asia, perhaps I wouldn't make verbal blunders.

I know about the crazy Christians because I worked with 2 of them. There used to be 3 of them, but then their Evangelical Presbyterian Church had a nasty break-up, which is where I heard a lot of the juicy details of their beliefs. And the 2 of them forced the other one out of his job, secondary to the church split.

Also, my co-workers, mostly Christian, tell me things, because they know I'm a left-wing atheist, and when the crazy Christians say outrageous things, I'm the only one they feel safe to vent to.

One of them had business dealings with one of my friends, and she told me that she asked him how he could work with me. She said that she was a liberal, but I made her look like a Republican. (Thanks a lot, friend, I happen to know that they made hit lists). He told her that he just didn't bring up religion or politics in front of me, and that is true.

So Asia's ignorance shows again, as it does with each rambling, illiterate post he makes.

No, the average 2.8 kids would be shared by two adults. And I didn't mean this to be mathematically accurate. I was venting to make a point that with the sky high divorce rate kids have to put up with parents, step parents and an ever revolving cast of "partners" and "friends", some live-in, some not, some of which don't mind the presence of the kid, some of which want the kid gone.

I worked with one chap from Vietnam who told me that he couldn't raise his two kids in this pornographied, whorehouse environment and was moving back to the old country for the kids' sake. Another co-worker from India told me his relatives warned him about moving here and raising his two daughters in this place for the same reason.

People have different views on this. One co-worker from Pakistan, who lived and worked in Saudi Arabia for 18 years for Ernst and Young, told me that he moved here for the sake of his kids, that he didn't want to raise them in a police state like Saudi Arabia where the cops are thieves and murderers and everyone is afraid of them.

Some (certainly not all) of the meanest people I've ever met have been "Christians". Two books I recently dusted off my bookshelves are highly worth reading: Bertrand Russell's "The Future of Science" and "Why I Am Not a Christian", copyright 1957. The former I just started reading again after forty (?) years, its copyright is 1959. I had to put it down after the first three chapters - terrifying in its accuracy. The predictions are downright chilling in light of our present state of affairs. The other book is also excellent. If interested, it's well worth visiting the library or local book store. Please don't use Amazon...those bastards!

Maybe the lieutenant decided to play along with the joke.

If you and Myrtlemay want to avoid prolonged deaths, you need to make sure that your significant others either don't call EMS when you die, or that they hand over the don't code papers to EMS when they show up.

Otherwise, you will be subjected to all kinds of indignities and in the hour after your death, you'll run up a bigger bill than you've ever managed to do in life.

http://wagelaborer.blogspot.com/2009/02/futile-resusitation.html

As for the doctor killing old folks with cyanide, I have objections.

It shouldn't be the doctor's choice, it should be the individual's. There are WAY better drugs than cyanide, and the individual should be supplied with them upon request, so that they may use them THEIRSELVES as they choose.

And, as a nurse I know that the doctor wouldn't administer the drug anyway. They would write an order for me to do it. And I am opposed to killing people, although totally in favor of people making their own decisions for themselves.

And, on that subject, I bring up the overpopulation issue again.

We need to pay people a substantial sum if they VOLUNTARILY sterilize themselves.

It wouldn't stop the crazy Christians, but it would stop irresponsible breeders, who also contribute disproportionately to the population, as I've pointed out before.

There are not that many crazy Christians, and even they usually get the word from God that 7 or 8 is enough, in my experience.

Catholics now have a lower birth rate than Protestants.

We don't have to kill off old people, we just need to stop producing so many unwanted babies.

Even Mexico's birth rate has dropped, as this old article shows-

http://articles.cnn.com/1999-07-28/world/9907_28_mexico.population_1_family-planning-mexicos-mexican-economy?_s=PM:WORLD

Note that the reaction of the government is to encourage more births.

We get that bullshit here also. They tell us that we need continual population growth to provide for Social Security, although Social Security has been provided since the population was 150 million.

Good point, from someone in the system who knows! Thanks! Yeah, "hubby" has been told in no uncertain terms not to "revive". I'll have to remind him of the not calling EMS business. Geez, you'd think he'd want to get his hands on what's left of my "wealth". He gets it ALL, with the exception of a little here and there for my kin. After incineration, there hopefully will be enough to place me in a tightly wrapped, plastic supermarket bag, atop the cat litter, I suspect. Garbage in, garbage out! Don't waste a plastic bag on my freaking ashes, darn it!

Smokage aye, hmmmmmmmmmm not sure what you mean but you might enjoy this.

BERLIN -- German police say an "old hippy" is facing possible prosecution for his version of the, ahem, highest Christmas tree - a festively decorated two-meter- (two-yard-) tall marijuana plant.

Koblenz police spokesman Ralf Schomisch says officers raided the apartment of the 58-year-old man following a tip Monday and uncovered a cache of 5.3 ounces (150 grams) of marijuana.

Then in the living room they discovered the tree - a pot plant adorned with Christmas lights. The suspect, whose name was not released, said he had planned to decorate it further and putting presents under it at Christmas.

But it was not to be. Schomisch said Thursday that authorities "had to destroy this pre-Christmas dream" and seize the plant as evidence.

What the K-dog wants to know is if the weed Gestapo had waited until the presents were under the tree would there be an additional charge of:

Intent to distribute?

Actually, if he just calls the funeral home, it may look suspicious, and he may not want to do that.

The system is set up so that dead bodies are usually handled by the emergency system. If there's rigor mortis or decomposition they don't haul the body to us, but otherwise, they do, but if the papers are handed over, it's just transport.

Depending on his tolerance, you may ask him to wait to call until you're a literal stiff.

But that would probably be difficult for him.

place me in a tightly wrapped, plastic supermarket bag, atop the cat litter
==========

lol ... great minds think alike but you've gone me one better with that line.

I always tell the wife to put my ashes on the mantel in a Hellman's Mayonaise jar and put a strip of masking tape on it on which is scrawled in ballpoint pen "Qshtik ... he shot a decent game."

"They tell us that we need continual population growth to provide for Social Security, although Social Security has been provided since the population was 150 million."

Though I hate to admit it I briefly saw FOX news yesterday. I think I was watching to see if mouths give off tells when lies eminate from them but anyway my point. The plump talking head who was supposedly hosting a news show was going on how increased immigration and growing the economy was vital to reducing our national debt.

Other ideas on how to grow the economy were not presented. Apparently growing the economy is really easy to do or I'm missing something.

Which is it?

I am in total agreement with you. My best bud has my medical directive and I've told him in no uncertain terms ... "Pull the damn plug!."

Ok, then you're Glinda, an Evil Aryan - a Race Traitor.

Well, that's the wrong frame, in my opinion.

Continual growth is not possible in a closed system. Like our planet Earth.

It's called "cancer" and it kills its host.

We need to live within our planetary means.

Unfortunately, our rulers don't want to do that, because it implies an end to profit growth, as well.

So we careen on, destroying our planet for the profits of 1%, while the rest of us are told that the only way that we can survive is to go along with their evil plans. And grow.

Oh Teddy, I really got you didn't I? Can't stand being reminded that your Union heroes wanted the Blacks out of America? Thus you betray your own Tradition be it Northern, Southern, or just American. You've been had by people much smarter than you. After all, how can one NOT betray Tradition if one doesn't even know what it is? Or care to know? So the North didn't win either, the money lenders won, the Rothschilds in other words.

I can idenify with that. In this world, the worst are often the corruption of the best. I went to school with some pretty mean Catholic kids. If kids are taught to be good and it doesn't take - they will rebel against goodness with a will that wouldn't be there if they had never been so taught. And they will rebel if the whole system is riddled with hypocrisy. Thus do Traditions decay...

And in terms of my current battle: what is Political Correctness but a corrupt Christianity that has been appropriated by Marxism?

As a Green, I am opposed to incineration (pollutes the air), and plastic wrap.

A crazy Christian with 10 kids (who I didn't know) came in dead to the ER a couple of weeks ago.

One of his church members showed up to console his inconsolable wife (stuck with 10 kids and no job).

He mentioned that the people in his church buried their loved ones on their own land.

This piqued my interest. I said that I knew someone who had buried her husband in the back yard, but she was told that she had to use formaldehyde, which, of course, is not green.

He said that he knew the state law very well, and it didn't call for that.

He said that when his son died, he showed up in his pick-up truck and told the funeral home director to throw his son in the back, so he could go home and bury him. And when the funeral home director objected, he told him that he knew his rights. So they did.

So I told my husband to bury me in the back yard. No formaldehyde. Cardboard box.

My carbon can enrich the soil.

Wow, On FOX...."plump talking head who was supposedly hosting a news show was going on how increased immigration and growing the economy was vital to reducing our national debt."

That means Rupert Murdoc and his demonic host are in favor of immigration. We really are done for as a culture - sorry about that, Vald.

Let the record show I'm not that enthused about it either.

But if FOX picks it up and starts repeating it in their soothing voices - pretty soon every politician and Cracka' in my region will be hunting some more 'o dem' immigrants to bring in.

Why not have her put the ashes in a flower pot and grow something? Then she can take the plant to bed with her. Immortality of a kind, dude. Boy are you in for a rude awakening when you die. I wonder if you will be mad when you don't cease to exist on schedule.

I intend my body to be put out to sea in a burning dragon ship.

Political Correctness started out as a joke, Vlad, a frigging joke. The left poking gentle fun at themselves.

The humorless Right Wing then pounced on it.

And you're carrying on the humor-deprived tradition.

WAGELABORER, you are saying that 1% of the people in this country control it don't care if they ruin the country in a rapacious pursuit of profit if I understand you right.

Are these the same people who want to try Julian Assange for treason or am I confused?

we've got every ethnic cuisine under the sun
==

I know.

Howdy neighbor! :D

The entire ruling class is in favor of illegal immigration, haven't you noticed, Prog?

That's why we are continually told that they are doing the jobs Americans won't, although you can go to your doctor, or your university, or engineering firm, or city hall, and see that this meme is a flat-out lie.

Construction and meat-packing are other jobs which only recently have been done by immigrants.

Even farm work used to be done by Americans, as you know from living in Georgia, and I know from living in California, among the Okies.

When the corporate media insists on telling you something over and over again, you know that it is what the ruling class wants you to believe.

Nice blog entry about resuscitation, Wage.
A few thoughts:

At 55 with no known preexisting conditions somebody damn well better get me an ambulance and work me hard all the way to the hospital.

Last thing I'd want to hear as consciousness slips from my body is my EMT son and his paramedic buddies say, "Nah - he's dead. Now, where is that Last Will and Testament of his??" LOL

And in Georgia, you have to have a permit for internment - and I'm not sure you can bury a body just anywhere, with or without the official cardboard box. Nice touch, btw.

I do know that formalin or embalming is not required, though.

Personally, I'm planning to be cremated - if energy descent holds off long enough. That's a little selfish, maybe - but, Hey - I'll be dead.

========
I was chatting with an off duty nurse about all this and she said she was going to have DNR tattooed on her chest. Do Not Resuscitate - for you non-medical types.

She was cute, so naturally I agreed with her. Then I couldn't resist asking her to show me where she was planning to put the tattoo. ;0)

So sue me - I'm a pragmatic, Scotch-Irish horn-dog. Does this mean I have extra high testosterone like one of those black fellows??

Daayyyuummnnn!

Yes, you are right. That is what I'm saying.

And they are indeed the same people who want to prosecute Julian Assange, and who have Bradley Manning locked up in solitary confinement, which is cruel and unusual punishment.

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/12/14/manning

By the way, if you follow the link in Glenn's article to the New Yorker article, two of the inhumane prisons mentioned are right here in Southern Illinois, Tamms and Marion (which has been condemned by Amnesty International).

We went from 2 prisons in 1980 to 14 prisons today, including some of the worst in the US.

Marion is also home of a factory assembling depleted uranium weapons, which have been linked to cancer and birth defects in the populations onto whom they have been dropped.

Just so you know that I'm not just against crazy Christians breeding like rabbits-

My Syrian co-worker told me that a leader of the PLO told his Dad that it was their policy to out-breed the Israelis.

In case you're wondering why, after 60 years of "genocide", the Palestinians have a couple of million people to "return" to the land where 500,000 left.

lol, Prog.

A lot of us plan to tattoo DNR on our chests! That way, you don't have to worry about the paperwork!

You have every right to want to stay alive.

I remember one time a medical resident trying to talk an elderly man into DNR status. The old guy kept refusing and she kept pushing until I was squirming with embarrassment.

When she left, he looked at me and said "I want to see my grandkids grow up".

Hey, no problem! I can go along with that.

It's every person's choice.

See what I mean about no sense of humor?

Did you even read the link? I thought it was funny.

This DNR stuff reminds me of a family situation about 20 years ago. My mother had 5 other siblings, 4 boys and 1 girl, my mother being the youngest. Well, they began dying off, until only my aunt was alive. She lived alone in California, and as she aged she got dementia. She had no money whatsoever, so she had to be placed in some public facility where she got 24/7 care. Soon, she couldn't chew her food, so they stuck a feeding tube into her stomach, and she became bedridden.

Her health deteriorated further. One day, my mother gets a telephone call from the West Coast. Her sister has developed pneumonia. and, unless they pound her chest and suck out her lungs, she's going to die. My mother is her only next of kin. My mother tells the doctor to resuscitate. Which they do. Now my aunt just sleeps in bed all the time, unconscious, but not dead. Over the next year and a half, my aunt is resuscitated 4 or 5 times. I ask my mother why she doesn't let her sister go - she has no quality of life and lives 3000 miles away and my mother hasn't seen her in about 15 years.

My mother says she doesn't know what to do; she thinks her father would have wanted to keep her sister alive, so she'll continue get her r3evived. One day I get a phone call from California from a doctor (my parents were spending the winter in Florida) who tells me my aunt has pneumonia yet again. The doctor begs me to let her go, he says it's so painful and a terrible thing to keep her alive. I say I have no authority, I'll call my mother, but if anything happens to my aunt in the meantime, I won't hold him liable.

Two hours later, I get a call from the doctor: my aunt has died.

I guess you can figure out my opinion on this subject.

Divine One,
I dont care what level of 'intertribal warfare' this blog is degenerating to or at on any day
[ive been away for 20 hours or so and 3 or 4 here have really been at war in those hours].
i dont want anyones 'apology'
you noted the beauty [or horror] of this is folks can post anything they choose to, regardless of how vicious or untrue it is!

factoids or not?:
1 in 3 latinos in the usa is under 18.
India now is the most gender imbalanced society
[for young, under 20 year olds].
what is the ration of males to females in china? i dunno.do you?

I believe up to 1960 a family was 6, 2 adults [of different genders!] and 4 children on average.

'PLEASE DO YOUR OWN HOMEWORK BEFORE OPENING YOUR IGNORANT HOLE '

hoist by yr own petard!

Excuse my denseness, i still dont understand the point yr making:
'My point was that the Swiss are a white nation. Why is the mosque issue even open for discussion in Switzerland? THAT'S MY QUESTION.'

yes swiss are white, so they should welcome/destroy/ignore minarets?

I have never been there so I'm pullin this outa my a............... but anyway my guess would be.

Insourcing, imported foreign labor usually is allowed freedom of religion. It's a colonial tradition and probably one of the more humane ones.

Whose been there and can set me straight?

'Note that the reaction of the government is to encourage more births.

We get that bullshit here also'
Of course we do!
Who do you think leaders are working for?
If you read the NY Times, earlier this year, Sunday section: VICENTE FOX [ article may have
been 'Border Rap'?]

WAGE.. rambling and illiterate poster that you are,
THE PURPOSE OF INCREASING THE # OF MEXICANS IS TO OVERTAKE THE USA.
its stated in the various platforms of the organizations.
if you doubt me go to Cal State Northridge and look at the 'art' on the latino center.
Ok you rambling illiterate?

'Some (certainly not all) of the meanest people I've ever met have been "Christians".'

Presumably because you are in the USA, so yr likely to meet more of them.
its whats called a 'skewed variable'

'"They tell us that we need continual population growth to provide for Social Security, although Social Security has been provided since the population was 150 million." '

this canard has also appeared in [gulp]
THE WALL STREET JOURNAL:
'immigrants are going to save social security'.

'California Green Party'
were they silent after chernobyl?
of course they were...it was in a communist cuntry. [intentional]
the green party and sierra club are worse than a bad joke for they are leftists first and 'green' third.

'The humorless Right Wing' ..in other words...WHOPPI GOLDBERG IS FUNNY?

tztza is always 100% right on this website.

I can't possibly argue with that kind of air tight logic, so this meat puppet is conceding total defeat before pissant blows a gasket.

She is like our own little Internet O'reilly, with more cuss words. Consider me thrown out of the studio.

asia, asia, asia, asia...you ever think of consolidating your posts into one big post.

Just a thought...


"Pushy" doesn't go half way to describing
our new "Chindian" San Jose Area, SJ Mom.
I can't tell you how many Anglos I know
that have seen their neighborhoods become
"Chindia" report the dirty looks they get
while walking their dogs ... like it is
the Chindian's neighborhood.

Of course, I do not support a racist point
of view but that's why I hate this ... it
is REVERSE racism.


E.


A good reply re Canadian multiculturalism.
I'm loathe to support Vlad's INHERENT racism
yet working in the stupid "Rainbow Coalition"
mentality of California would turn most
sensible intellectuals away from this faux
"liberalism".

And you're absolutely correct that the problem
is only going to get worse because the Chinese
ACTUALLY STUDY in school while the Anglo
population is trying like hell to become
"ghetto" both in their appearance and their
attitudes about the life of the mind. It
breaks my heart to see this.


E.

'Some (certainly not all) of the meanest people I've ever met have been "Christians".' -MM

Presumably because you are in the USA, so yr likely to meet more of them.
its whats called a 'skewed variable' -asia

Mmmm, perhaps. Could also be due to the country's unfortunate acronym of U.S.A. Unlimited Supply of Assholes...
Now that skews my variable nicely, thanks.

Hey, anybody see "Gasland" yet?
Talk about yer wake-up call. Jesus, the gas drillers are about to poison the entire watershed of the Delaware, etc. No more clean water for NYC and Philly. Man, are we fuckin' DONE baby, DONE!
Heckuva job, Unka Dicky, and your little puppet GW.

NO oversight for fracking chemicals; mmmm-boy, I just loves me some trustworthiness...


Actually, Vlad, it's time to restate my
old mantra: "There aren't 100 liberals
who are honest about racism". I take
INDIVIDUALS on their own merit and have
never snubbed people of ANY color socially.
Individuals can rise above their social
heritage no matter how many impediments it
placed in their way.

However, large scale statistics do not lie
and the combo of an 85 average IQ coupled
with their history of violence (here and in
Africa where "government" is just the latest
band of thugs who rule) means that liberals
may be barking up an Orwellian tree to simply
"declare" the absolute equality of all
ethnicities from the point of view of POTENTIAL.

When the University of California went to a
"color blind" admissions policy, it appeared
"racist" because a paucity of black and Hispanic
students developed and a surfeit of Chinese
students. I believe in "natural law" much in
the manner of certain libertarians (though I'm
assuredly NOT a libertarian) and I believe that
MERIT should rule any sane society.

Our culture has become an "anti-meritocracy".
We let people from cesspits like Sudan and
Bangladesh get in immediately but hold up
Swedish immigrants for a year. Most public
institutions in America still have quotas for
women, blacks, ... whoever.

However, I hope that you agree, Vlad, that
WHITE people are "going ghetto" and that you're
getting as incensed about this as I am. White
young people aren't far from getting plates in
their necks like Bantu tribeswomen and they're
just about as anti-intellectual.


E.

What about when the posts are in reply to posts that are not directly over mine?

and have folks looked at JHK pix of his visit to Atlanta?

Interesting that you San Joseans are complaining about the Chinese.

When I pointed out before that there were more Chinese immigrants than Mexican, so why was everyone complaining about Mexicans, everyone jumped on me.

From a New Yorker article, the only one I've ever seen explaining the phenomena-

"After the 1989 massacre at Tiananmen Square, President George H. W. Bush issued one executive order granting amnesty to Chinese students in the United States and another giving “enhanced consideration” to asylum applications from Chinese nationals who resisted the country’s family-planning policies. These orders effectively meant that any Chinese adult could be classified as a refugee. According to Peter Kwong, a professor at Hunter College and an authority on American Chinatowns, the largest influx of illegal Chinese in the country’s history entered the United States between 1988 and 1993. A United Nations study estimated that by the mid-nineties the snakehead trade from China to the United States was a three-and-a-half-billion-dollar industry."

Read more http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2006/04/24/060424fa_fact6#ixzz18PiQ4grM

But do they get the dirty looks ' because they have dogs'? or because they are non chindian?

Oh so there are 30,000,000 illegals from chindia here?
me thinks not!but there may be from mexico.
the governments official count is 10?Milllion...SO TRIPLE THAT FOR THE REAL NUMBER.

there may be more legal immigrants that are asian.
than there are legal immigrants from 'latino' countries.i dunno.
and yes bush as a neocon was set to wreck america via wars and open borders.


On the other hand, O., desperate times
call for desperate measures and although
there's a natgas surplus, we all know that
Peak Natgas isn't far behind Peak Oil.

Like many poor people who are choosing
between eating and staying warm, we're
getting so desperate for long term energy
supplies that we're willing to risk what
seems insane.

And that, to my mind, is the real horror
i.e., that we are down to lesser evils.


E.


So, Asia, ... you think those Chindians
who see an Anglo walking a Golden Retriever
are thinking about Puppy Noodle Soup?? :-) :-)


E.

Where did you grow up?

White Americans have a long and proud history of deliberate ignorance, of hating "pointy-headed intellectuals".

"I don't need no book learning, I got common sense."

You've never heard that one?

Sure, some white Americans are smart and have gone to college and invented things and stuff, but the vast majority of us are dumb as rocks, and proud of it.

Have you ever seen this website?

http://www.peopleofwalmart.com/?page_id=9798

Them's our people, E.


W.,

I think people in the Bay Area are
developing a far greater distaste
for Chinese and Indians partly for
correct reasons and partly because
they cannot get their own kids to
compete successfully against them.

So part of it is anger against reverse
racism but part of it is "the green-eyed monster" ... envy. Boomers ... the worst
parents in world history.


E.

Wage said: They tell us that we need continual population growth to provide for Social Security, although Social Security has been provided since the population was 150 million.
==========

Wage, I'm not getting the drift of what you're saying.

It was just recently (May of this year I think) that the govt says SS payouts exceeded SS taxes collected. Since more dollars are going out than coming in, it would take a higher pop of workers paying in to offset that. Either that or make current workers and their employers pay in more which would be polically difficult. Or reduce the amount of payouts or start payouts later (like 70?). So, from the standpoint of the financial soundness of the social security system I'm not surprised they are saying we need population growth.

But I believe the situation is much much worse than the govt lets on. I believe every last cent ever collected as SS taxes has been spent - either as SS payouts or for other govt programs for which the money was not intended. In short, there is no giant vault full of SS payroll tax receipts just sitting there waiting for people to retire or croak. Furthermore, since the incoming money is all spent immediately there is no way to grow the pile via investment like there would be if each worker ran their own SS acct ala IRAs and 401Ks.

Following are some interesting facts I googled about the early years of SS and how the payouts have increased exponentially over the years.

Payroll taxes were first collected in 1937, also the year in which the first benefits were paid, namely the lump-sum death benefit paid to 53,236 beneficiaries.[citation needed]

The first reported Social Security payment was to Ernest Ackerman, who retired only one day after Social Security began. Five cents were withheld from his pay during that period, and he received a lump-sum payout of seventeen cents from Social Security.[23]

In 1940, benefits paid totaled $35 million. These rose to $961 million in 1950, $11.2 billion in 1960, $31.9 billion in 1970, $120.5 billion in 1980, and $247.8 billion in 1990 (all figures in nominal dollars, not adjusted for inflation). In 2004, $492 billion of benefits were paid to 47.5 million beneficiaries.[28] In 2009, nearly 51 million Americans received $650 billion in Social Security benefits.


I think you're depiction of whites who
hate "pointy-headed pseudo-intellectuals"
is more of a Southern phenomenon. I don't
get the feeling that Northern Midwesterners,
Northeasterners, or Pacific Northwesterners
have bought into this worship of dumbness
to nearly the extent of the Deep South and,
lately, the Rockies (sans Colorado which
seems to be far less stupid than Idaho,
Arizona, and several other mountain states).

So, I agree with your assertion but I think
it's mainly American and, even at that, only
a REGIONAL phenomenon.


E.

I don't think we have too much to worry about on the continued population growth front. I doubt seriously that we'd even be growing today, 4 years beyond peak oil, except that we may be reallocating resources from other normal daily operations into the task of producing more future eaters...like funding libraries and schools. Ask Eleuthero how their school budget is faring. I know my aunt, who is Assistant Dean of Agriculture (agriculture for Christ's sake!) at the University of Georgia, a major land-grant institution, has had her B budget (for extension services) slashed by 25% over the last 18 months. How do you make that work like normal?

You don't. And you can't just keep having more and more kids on fewer and fewer resources either. I suspect peak population and then peak deforestation might still be in the future tense, but probably not by much. I'm not even sure that cutting forests for firewood will outpace cutting them for cancerous rates of economic growth during our "heyday," but I'm going to leave some wiggle room open on that one. I don't have a crystal ball after all.

But I do believe that the planet has entered the healing phase, since oil is the prime mover for ecosystem destruction, and population growth is most likely approaching nil in a hurry. That's just the physics of it all, and no amount of cajoling and state sanctioning is likely to change that. Not in net effect anyway. I seriously question our personal decision to have a second child, despite the real need for helping hands on the farm. (And good lord is this boy going to be BIG!) The US may still be able to shift some money, printed money anyway, into "new consumer" production, for a little while, but no amount of fancy math or economic hoo-doo can keep the top spinning.

Understanding this brings me a lot of peace.

Social Security started as a pay-as-you-go system. Current workers paid for current retirees. It was not touted as a wealth making plan. It was social security, a social pact between generations, a way of securing a strong society in which no one starved for lack of work.

In 1983, the ruling class announced that there were just too damn many Baby Boomers for future workers to pay for on a pay-as-you-go basis, so Baby Boomers (a made-up term for 20 years of Americans), and ONLY Baby Boomers, would have to pre-pay their retirement.

So, while federal taxes were lowered on the rich,from 70% to 28%, payroll taxes for SS were increased on the poor. I think at that time the cut-off point was $58,000/year. Over that, they didn't pay a cent.

They said that the excess would go into a trust fund to pay off baby boomers retirement.

Baby boomers start retiring next year when the first baby born in 1946 turns 65.

Workers still put more money into Social Security than is paid out, and that is expected to continue until 2017.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_Trust_Fund

As the first Baby Boomers start to retire, we suddenly hear that there is no trust fund! That the full-faith of the US government back bonds doesn't apply to its own citizens!

By 2031, when the last of the Baby Boomers retires, the right wing hopes to have stolen all of the trust fund and thrown retirees out without a pension at all.

And they will be told that they should have invested in the stock market, cause THAT'S dependable.

As we've all seen.

You'd have to be a brainwashed dumb white American to believe that crap!

But there's plenty of them, witness the WalMart pictures. And Q.

We have a very productive society. We have 20 million unemployed workers, and STILL the food is grown, the electricity is on and the water flows from the taps.

There is no reason that we need more people to provide for all, when we aren't even using all the ones we have now.

Raise the cap on Social Security taxes, if you really believe that the program is insolvent.

"Like many poor people who are choosing
between eating and staying warm, we're
getting so desperate for long term energy
supplies that we're willing to risk what
seems insane." -E.

I agree; and no "seems" insane about it! If you [permanently] poison your aquifer, you've just exited the land of the living.
================
"And that, to my mind, is the real horror
i.e., that we are down to lesser evils." -E.

Yep, a good touchstone, that.


There were more babies born in the US in 2007 than in any previous year. (Including the so-called Baby Boomer years).

And then the birth rate fell.

Most people don't reproduce in hard times. (No offense).

Although one of my Facebook friends just posted the birth of her second child yesterday.

Back in college, in my anthropology class, I remember reading that when times are tough, more children are born. In the poorest countries, medical care is often non-existent for the masses and many children don't live to adulthood. Thus, if some parents there want 3 surviving children, they may produce 7 so those three survive. Also, children can be sold off for money or resources; or put to work to earn money for the parents.

If things get real bad here, it might be possible that the birthrate rises. not decreases.

The birthrate dropped in the US in the 30s.

Americans don't need to produce extra kids to account for dead ones, and they don't need extra hands on the farm. (Except for Tripp).

Qtip elabrocated, ""You continue to not get the point, which is this:"

No, I really think you are being obstinate. Look, there are no "NOW" solutions. There are only long-term trends and statistical models. The 1Child/1Woman solution is absolutely going to result in the massive depopulation required, only on a 100-year timescale (but its effects start immediately as it halts and then eventually reverses population growth).

China's plan is only on its 31st year. What you get is a plateau around that point that lasts for about 20-30 years before the total population begins to fall inexorably.

Now, China is running a 0.49% growth rate because of immigration, life extension, cheating (having more than one kid), and corruption (bribery to graft allowing more than 1 kid per couple.).

" family planning policy.[1] It officially restricts the number of children married urban couples can have to one, although it allows exemptions for several cases, including rural couples, ethnic minorities, and parents without any siblings themselves.[2] A spokesperson of the Committee on the One-Child Policy has said that approximately 35.9% of China's population is currently subject to the one-child restriction"

So there are deviations from the ideal 1 child/1 woman model. It can be said though, that the effect of restriction on 35% of the population will have an overall effect. Life extension happened in a big over the last 31 years extending lifespans keeping total population from decreasing.

for example, if China had a population of 1 billion 31 years ago (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ChinaDemography.svg) and had a population growth rate over that time of 0.949% (round to 1%- the United States currently) the predicted population size would be

1*10^9*e^(0.01*31)= 1,360,000,000

Population right now is 1,330,141,295 (July 2010 est.)

Since "The policy was introduced in 1978 and initially applied to first-born children in 1979"

(31 years ago) then you could argue that it didn't work as the growth rate equals the US. I think that is a false assertion because there is that 35% that were restricted to some degree. If they had been unrestricted, for example, and moved the growth rate to a rate more like India, which saw comparable socioeconomic variables during that time, what would the population be today?

Take the percent differece between the chinese and indian growth rates. (0.01376-0.01=0.00376 * 0.35 = 0.001316) and ADD that marginal growth to the original growth rate: 0.011316.

1*10^9*e^(0.011316*31)= 1,420,197,576

The difference, 601,975,576 represents the population not added to the total based on the reduction of the birth rate.

Going forward, lets say China institutes a total fertility 1 child/woman over 100% of the population, and enforces it immediately. Lets assume mortality stays the same. What does the equation predict?

Lets figure out the rate. Essentially,

Generation 1: 4 individuals: 2 men, 2 women have 1 child each. Generation 2: two children mate and have 1 offspring. Generation 3: one child.

4 > 2 > 1. Lets assume 30 years between generations. by the 3rd generation, the original 4 people are all 90 and lets assume they kick the bucket. Now the population is (3).

90 years, the population went from 4 > 3

What is this growth rate?

From N = N0e^(rt), we rearrange the equation:

3 (ending population) = 4 (beginning population)* e ( the base of natural logs raised to the power of) ^ (rate * 90 years (in the example))

(3/4) = e ^ (r * 90), taking the natural log of each side gives:

(-0.287 / 90) = r, or r = -0.0032

Plugging that into China's current size, multiplying by that rate for the next 69 years gives:

1.36*10^9*e^(-0.0032*69)= 1,090,552,774

In other words the population decreased by another 269 million people by 2079. Extrapolating to the end of the century, 2100 adds 21 years:

1.36*10^9*e^(-0.0032*90)= 1.019 billion which is where we started in 1979.

But where would world population go if 1 child/woman were universally applied today?

6.7*10^9*e^(-0.0032*90)=5.02 billion.

Again, that figure is very rough. It doesn't represent the large drop to 2 billion I was referring to, but, 2 billion is the real figure if you took into account all the people alive today being essentially dead in 100 years. Plus figure in the fact that a percentage of children will not reproduce, dying in childhood. Fertility is only running about 80% of females currently. So when you add in all these factors the drop is precipitous and profound. More robust models than a one-line equation predict 2 billion.

The growth equation is more accurate if, everything else being equal, we simply maintain known (not estimated) rates. If we are sure the USA grows at the current rate,

3.1*10^8*e^(0.01*90) = 762 million people in the United States in 2100.

A surefire disaster. Assuming a -0.0032 growth rate we end up at 232 million, and, for the reasons described above, in reality, a lot less.


references:
http://www.indexmundi.com/g/g.aspx?v=24&c=us&l=en

Here is the salient graph that explains the longterm impact of lower growth rate as a function of lower fertility rates:

http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/P/Populations.html (scroll to end of page)

"A value of 2.06 will produce a stable population of about 11.5 billion.
A value 5% below that (1.96) will cause the population to drop back to close to its present value (6.1 billion) while
a value of only 5% above (2.17) would produce a population of over 20 billion and still rising."

From this graph, you can infer the effect of even lower growth rates, and see how, after a hundred years, the effect can be as drastic as a reduction in total population to below 2 billion.


"Bustin, I'll make this my last post on the subject of "one woman one child" so as not to bore everyone to tears."

Everybody needs a good cry. Fuck 'em.

"People, such as Tripp, who appear to know what they're talking about concerning the carrying capacity of the earth from a feed-the-masses perspective, are telling us earth's population needs to drop from 6.7B to 1B or less and needs to do so pronto."

Tripp is right and wrong. Carrying capacity is a function of energy inputs. Since we have lots of energy right now, the carrying capacity is 6.7B, evidently. Catton calls the deficit between what is borrowed on nonrenewable sources and current consumption "ghost acreage". That would be 5.7B. With known energy parameters in a closed system (Earth) he is correct that 5.7B is unsustainable.

So how is it happening? This is simple. We have 1 billion people starving to death, today. We have an additional 2 billion on the edge of starvation and only surviving because of 1st-world aid, mainly the US, those are people whose main activity during the day is finding something to eat (and reproducing, apparently). That brings us to the 3.7 billion who are apparently within the temporally sustainable with given energy inputs. If modern chemical agriculture improves yields by, say 370%, and they kind of do, you can understand one planet's capacity multiplied by 370% can feed 370% of the population.

Ergo, what was adequate for 1 billion roughly feeds that 3.7. Since we really blow the doors off and overproduce, we can also feed an additional 2 billion, and the remainder, 1 billion are simply starving.

Like I said before, there are no "NOW" solutions.

The trajectory of development shows that yields, as far as I can see, increase with proportional increases in population. (eg. we grow food yields at same or higher rate than population growth rate).

The drivers keeping food in people's mouths in terms of increasing yields are genetic engineering and chemical mass monoculture agriculture, primarily the staples wheat, corn, and soy.

It is a fact this mass agriculture is severely ecologically damaging. It is a fact that nutrients used to feed crops are getting scarcer. It is a fact that oil prices will drive agricultural prices. The official policy has been surplus creation and government subsidy, along with a humanitarian arm of "feeding the world" (which is just something to do with the surplus that the government REMOVES from the free market to prevent price fluctuations).

There simply isn't enough water and potash, etc to maintain current population in the style to which we're accustomed and surely not enough to handle the 10B to 15B population we are headed for.

All other things held unchanged, simple arithmetic tells us that one child per woman would shrink the population rather quickly. But the problem is getting every man and woman on earth to go along with this for the next hundred years in the face of resulting untold unknown forms of collateral damage from the policy. It's absurd to believe this is possible. If a brutal totalitarian regime in China has been only partially successful in 31 years (i.e. slowing the growth rate but not achieving actual decline) what are the odds for success everywhere else ... especially given mankind's drive to procreate?"

It depends entirely on your disposition toward the likeliness of one or the other option occurring as far as the fact that 1child/1woman is possible.

When I look at it, I try to accommodate a future perspective. I believe this future perspective to have a few traits:

1. people will really be interested in solving problems (mostly because problems will be a defining element of our CF-World)
2. People will still generally act in their own best interests.
3. Policy will turn ever more toward the ecological basis.

So the political economy will be highly favorable to applying real solutions to real problems.

If anything can be gleaned from the phenomenon of female fertility declining with increases in standard of living, we can generally correlate that the question of having babies will still be a mankind problem until it is properly placed in women's laps. Because population control is ultimately their responsibility and problem to solve.

I don't particularly see the involvement of women in procreation happening, since its doesn't seem to bother most women now. I see the evolution of the understanding that, in the human race, it is the men who solve problems, and we will have to solve it in women's domains, just as we created the automatic transmission and gynecological chair.

This will ultimately come in the form of some kind of male birth control. I think it may come in the conventional form of sperm banking and vasectomy, initially, eventually becoming a pharmaceutical.

I think we'll see a reduction in female birth control because none of those solutions work very well and the female system is not as simple.

As for the act of conception, human beings are engineered to reproduce and there is no good natural way to thwart it. Sex is as fool-proof a process of producing children as you can find, as evidence look at all the fools with children.

I think the numbers look good for the US as long as we restrict immigration, and expulse the current population of illegals to show we're serious about controlling population.

I have a friend who travels extensively in China and India and he encounters people all the time who are absolutely incredulous that we don't understand the vital importance of population control.

The fact is the U.S. is still a world leader, regardless of the fact that we need to fix our own problem first. Other countries will follow our lead to take steps to reduce population just like they've followed our lead buying iPads and driving SUVs.

And the examples of bad effects of no-policy on population will pile up globally and will be a billboard to the world of what consequences to expect.

There is a triangulation of clusterfuckage between the illegal immigrant population, agriculture, free market manipulation, US national trade deficit, and world population that is massive and one could say that the entire US economy (and hence the world's) economy and security depends on these interrelationships. That collusion and politician's dependence of those industries is the real reason policy won't change meaningfully. That and the fact that America is a Republic without true democracy.

But- if immigration is chipped out from under the pyramid, the whole thing can come apart into workable chunks. Immigrant expulsion will lead to agricultural reform, for instance. And repartriated Mexicans will transform and progressivize the Mexican state. Its a domino thing.

Right now there is no cash in the SS trust fund. All there is is government bonds equal in nominal value to the cash that should be there - in effect, promissory notes.

When the dollar eventualy fails, no one will buy US government notes. Since the viability of US debt depends on rolling over maturing notes, and nobody will be buying them, our government is screwed. It could only repudiate its debt, which means the SS bonds become worthless, or try to print its way out, which will make SS bonds almost worthless.

Think the public, especially retirees might get a little upset when their monthly check doesn't come, or when the check is worth less than the stamp on the envelope it came in?

Yes, but the coming economic catastrophe will be far, far worse than the Great Depression. And many American kids then dropped out of school to work to help their families. What would be the next step if times were a lot tougher?

And what would happen if medical care became almost non-existent or non-affordable? And the death rate for children increased drastically?

PC, I think it was you who asked me why I think this whole WikiLeaks story is a scam. Or maybe it was Cash. Anyway, here's an article that nicely corroborates why this whole WikiLeaks brouhaha is really a CIA dog and pony show.

- http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/12/rushkoff-internet-never-free/

Update from Tonic, our new 300 acre permaculture transition site in south Georgia:

Lots of work to do. King Cotton has wasted the soil over the last who-knows-how-many years, but we are optimistic about the strength of our rehab methods, and restoration of such poor soils will speak louder than would good design from a strong soil base.

But cotton is paying the bills at the moment, so it will remain until we can displace it financially. Pastured beef and eggs, and mushrooms, will be first on the menu, and will hopefully lead organically to new systems (I have plenty of ideas already, but don't want to get ahead of myself here).

In the nearer term, we got the power and water going today, really good well water, pruned some scrub, and planted the first of the perennials - olives, figs, and tea.

I'm making my 3rd trip in the last week up to Macon on Sunday to load up the kitchen boxes we packed last round, and get a bunch more tedious stuff boxed up. Just waiting for the rain to stop.

More later. Take care everyone!

Wage, let's get this straight first: I do not favor population growth to provide for Social Security or any other reason. Nor do I favor immigration whether legal or illegal. My comment at 6:33PM was written because you sounded mystified as to why TPTB thought population growth was needed to fund SS. I provided the simple and obvious logic.

However, in your 7:13PM comment the convoluted thought process combined with revisionist history gives me more than a touch of vertigo. What I wonder is: why don't you just state what you really believe as a far left socialist/ communist ... that we should just do away with the unnecessary process of collecting SS tax and then paying it out. Eliminate all that and just pay everyone a living wage when they hit 65. Create the funding for it out of thin air.

Or maybe carry it to its logical endpoint ... pay everyone a living wage from birth to death like 8M espouses.

And while we're at it let's do away with all healthcare insurance plans, govt and private ... you're a human, you get sick, you go to the doctor or hospital, they cure you, you leave, pay nothing and there's no paperwork. Why dick around with all the complications?

If money is an issue just print it. Fiat money is GOOD, just ask Asoka. The more the merrier.

Sorry Bust, your comment is entirely too long and I won't be reading it past the first paragraph or two. It's a shame really ... it's probably loaded with lots of good shit.

Final comment: if you think you can successfully cram a one woman one child policy down the throats of the entire world for 100 years, go for it.

"The difference, 601,975,576 represents the population not added to the total based on the reduction of the birth rate."

Shouldn't this figure be 60,197,576?

I basically agree with what you're saying. You've seemed to put a lot of thinking about this, which I personally appreciate.

However, there's some things I do disagree with you on:

1. people will really be interested in solving problems (mostly because problems will be a defining element of our CF-World)
2. People will still generally act in their own best interests.
3. Policy will turn ever more toward the ecological basis.

I find this reasoning too optimistic.

Also, we don't know to what extent technology can increase our food supply. Predicting the future with numbers is very dicey.

I believe we don't have a hundred years of population control. Something bad may well occur a long time before that. Or possibly, something good.

Another thing is that we are assuming the human race will always be in a closed system. Technological and social advances may take us off-planet to gather resources from new, far-off locations.

Finally, technologically speaking, my own belief is then men will no longer be necessary for procreation, as biologic science will find ways for women to conceive without them. We've already started down this road with sperm donors.
I'm sure some women will be thrilled if this happens - good riddance to men - and some women will be very sad.

Qtip writes, "Sorry Bust, your comment is entirely too long and I won't be reading it past the first paragraph or two. It's a shame really ..."

Why shame? Ignorance is bliss. And I never thought you had the capacity for enlightenment to begin with.

Bean says, ""The difference, 601,975,576 represents the population not added to the total based on the reduction of the birth rate."

Shouldn't this figure be 60,197,576?"

Yes.

Also, ""1. people will really be interested in solving problems (mostly because problems will be a defining element of our CF-World)
2. People will still generally act in their own best interests.
3. Policy will turn ever more toward the ecological basis.

I find this reasoning too optimistic."

I base my reasoning on simple, Adam Smith kinds of common sense justifications. Self-interest, mainly. Not on any namby pamby "inherent good" in people. I am less optimistic about those parts of the world that don't have clear cultural values or brains, like the Western Sahara. They will have worse outcomes.

"Also, we don't know to what extent technology can increase our food supply. Predicting the future with numbers is very dicey."

That is true, but, for big numbers, these models are the best thing we've got and they are relatively accurate and safe. Beats being completely blind and relying on astrology.

As for what extent technology can increase the food supply, here I am totally over-optimistic, because of advances historically and advances in science to our current level. Plus, there is latitude- we can and will create new novel foods from formerly inedible products- we have a long and creative history (see 'processed foods') and there is no reason we cannot find ways to increase available calories. Some practices will be harmful and some will be benign; the harmful practices carry their disincentives for use, hence my reasoning about what people are likely to do. For those sad populations that harm themselves, it is only a matter of time before they figure it out and start mitigation. These are processes that require education of mass peoples and so they will come in the form of social and cultural undercurrents.

"Another thing is that we are assuming the human race will always be in a closed system. Technological and social advances may take us off-planet to gather resources from new, far-off locations."

That is an eventuality that is quite frankly, unthinkable for the next 100 years. If anyone is going to other planets it will be robots. And the resource-gathering will be speculative at best. I'd say its so far into the unknown and unlikely categories as to not be practical to estimate its impacts, if any.

"Finally, technologically speaking, my own belief is then men will no longer be necessary for procreation, as biologic science will find ways for women to conceive without them. We've already started down this road with sperm donors.
I'm sure some women will be thrilled if this happens - good riddance to men - and some women will be very sad."

I doubt that this will happen. Sperm banks exist and women do not generally form lines outside and abstain from good ol' fashioned baby-making. But I do see a progressive split already forming. If male birth control takes off (and I think it will) then men are in control once again. I think men have to take control of reproduction because women won't do it.

Eventually the whole concept is a bit moot. We'll restrict population because we recognizes that it is the only sane and fair thing to do. At the same time we will start genetic engineering and baby-making will become more technically complex, again, because of the self-interest thing. By the time we hit the end of the century, we will have:

1. Zero unwanted pregnancies.
2. A generation of super-charged kidults and their genetically superior children.

That will leave plenty of time to re-equalize the sexual arena by removing the power imbalance of pregnancy and reducing the stress of the act in the first place. Probably leading to a 2nd "sexual revolution" around 2060 that will rightfully look back at today's scene as backward and puritanical. By then, things like partnership and marriage will be long gone as relics of a backward age. It will be a real liberation for both men and women.

As far as women not wanting to reproduce with men, I doubt it will make much difference. There will still be men. And they will still not be reproducing. There are sperm substitutes by these are expensive and complex. And who is going to eschew men so much they only give birth to females? Birth as activism? There is no movement toward a male-free society for good reason. Life without men would mean women would have to do all the work. Eventually with nothing to gossip about everyone would die of boredom. Even strict lesbianism carries with in a curse of eventual "bed-death" where the urge to recreate sexually is diminished.

Without the male chromosome, humanity would never have become self-aware or intelligent. We would have comfortably lapsed back to protoplasm, as so many women seem to be trending toward now. Like bacterium, they are drawn by smell of fudge brownies and cannot control their urge to consume.

It would be a hell of scientific feat if we could in fact make females smarter and more attractive. The smarter and more attractive male offspring are going to naturally desire that, so, there is the trajectory.

First, we'll see genome sequencing and databasing based on half-chromosome sets (eggs & sperm). Then perhaps a computer assisted mix & match. Then, prophylactic amniocentesis to prevent genetic abnormalities. Then comes the design technology. First, its expensive and a trickle. Then its cheap and a flood. Then the thought of natural birth- making an obsolete human being with built-in problems and a shrunken capacity for quality of life will be in the negative ethical column. Once brain damage is preventable, then not preventing it will be criminal. Anyone not participating in the process of constant improvement will be more and more disadvantaged.

At some point, there will be most people, who are immune to common diseases by design, and a few people who are not, who get sick and suffer. Any pristine ideologies about the sanctity of natural birth are going to be trashed because natural birth will resemble flagrant cruelty.

wage,
lets look at somoeone 45 years old.when they were born the US population was about 200 million.
now its about 310 million.
seems to me theyd be 'more babies born' when the population has increased by 50%!.

Yes, i believe the title of the book is
'THE SNAKEHEAD'
and the horrible woman who is a key figure is
'a great hero to US chinese'

i dunno, maybe in a 'nice' neighborhood they are concerned about peeps that dont clean up after
their dog!
i dunno. they hate whites? they hate dogs? they hate?

Trip,
i admire what yr doing [cept the animal husbandry]
but:
'And you can't just keep having more and more kids on fewer and fewer resources either.'
in africa i believe its '7 children average'...same in muslim families in the middle east.
you have hinted at 'die off' ......sure in that dire situation peeps wont be increasing but the poor usually have alot more children. its been true of US poor blacks for a century +.

Looking at the increase in the population growth rate over the last ten years (from a link provided by Bustin J) I'd hypothesize that yeast people are incapable of worrying about overpopulation or anyone else.

Your post is a real flight of fancy. Either you have a vivid immagination or you're a science fiction buff.

BTW re: Eventually the whole concept is a bit moot.

It's mute. Your TV remote has a moot button.

;-)

"BTW re: Eventually the whole concept is a bit moot.

It's mute. Your TV remote has a moot button."


Happy now? You did say you would do this sometime.


Wow, BJ ... an attempt to write a
freaking ESSAY on the carrying
capacity of earth.

However, like econometrics, I think
demographic futurism is kind of a
bogus "science" no matter how dressed
up in exponential formulae.

There are too many exogenous variables
whose exact values are unknown. For
example, we're rather overdue for
something like Spanish Influenza. No
one knows if some Ebola or West Nile
like thing lies in wait. No one knows
if N. Korea or Iran or some other crackpot
country will launch on a neighbor. No
one knows what the real internals of
economies are because there are multiple
layers of deception in the stats of most
countries.


E.


Trust me ... my friends who walk dogs
clean up the dog's poop. The Chindians
who glare at them are just hostile boobs
who make Whitey's "racism" seem like
magnanimous egalitarianism.


E.


I think your post about raising kids in
country X illustrates that there really
are no "Edens" in the world any more.

The USA still suffers from the sexual
"freedom" of the swinging 1970s. The
Boomers' kids illustrate this because
these kids are almost incapable of
durable relationships because their
parents, usually divorced, misunderstood
the difference between sexual attraction
and a reason to marry. I think Hollywood
added to this confusion.

Sexual attraction is as old as the human
race but tends to blind people to the
realities of their sexual partner until
the cup of passion has been drunk dry.
And when that cup has run dry, kids are
often caught in the middle of a horrible
divorce or a loveless marriage because
they usually never learned to be pals.


E.

Cultures often have their own "in house" jokes - but they bristle when others use them. Are you really sugesting that there is NOT a Leftist Orthodoxy with correct opinions on every subject under the sun? That there are not a system of prejudices and hierarchies of grievance? That Blacks don't come before Whites and Women before Men? It is to laugh, Wage. There is obviously a vast alternative power structure desperate to get its hand on the levers of power to dismantle our culture. Under Obama with his dozens of Czars, you people have come closer than ever before here in the United States.

And you people can't stand the fact that we are on to you. That we listen and marvel at the ravings of a Van Jones for example or at how the Attorney General wont prosecute the Black Panthers who attacked White voters. You personally seem disoriented to me. You've been decieving people so long that you now half believe your own deceptions. Well you may not know what you believe but I do. And you are in a permanent state of outrage that we indend to stop you. So no - altho I have a fine sense of humor I will not laugh at the genocide of my race and the destruction of my culture. Character assasination is the second tactic used after ignoring and isolation. Yes, we study your books - we admire your dedication and dark genius. We know that you are deadly serious about your mad plans. But you will find out as the old African Proverb says, the same stick you beat us with can be taken away and used to beat you.

As for my definition of Political Correctness - for a one sentence job it cannot be beat. It gets down to the very essence. I nailed it spot on. Conciseness or Concision (are these words?) is a mark of genius.

We agree! Remember though, the 85 is only because of the White blood. The average IQ in Black Africa is a whopping 70.

Everyone in Liberal America ignores genetics so I'm driven crazy. Liberal America is far more intelectual than Conservative America in general but they are so PC that it doesn't matter. Old fashioned commonsense trumps a mad intellect anyday. No these people shouldn't be talking - maybe their only doing it because the chattering classes have lost touch will all reality. Maybe they'd be happy to go back to their private lives if they knew that their goverment was actually looking out for them and not sending their money to the third world.

Raw IQ? It's only a measurement of potential and nothing more. Many Mensans accomplish little or nothing - no creativity. Others are just competent scientists or programmers. It's no big deal without the x factor, creativity. And of course the other big one, character. Some parents ruin their brilliant kids thru pressure or praise and kid grows up to be a waste. Creativity and Character are the deep waters - no test tube can contain them.

Creativity seems to be a gift of the gods but character can be fostered by a good home, culture, parents, and role models. So I acknowledge environment as much as genetics. Most psychometricians say IQ is about 60 or more percent genetic. But again, without the right upbringing it will come to naught. And as you say, we are falling down on the job. Letting our kids be raised by the TV and its rap role models.

I did read it - very caustic but clever -much like you. From what I've heard of Frank Baum, it was probably intentional. He wrote about half a dozen of these OZ books. I couldn't get into them but his fans say they are full of double entendres and moral paradoxes.

You've chosen to be a bad witch like Glinda. Why don't you surrender, Dorothy?

When flying monkeys come out of my ass.
Don't know why, it just seemed like the appropriate response...
:-) Since we have a Wizard of Oz theme going here.

Qshtik said: "If money is an issue just print it. Fiat money is GOOD, just ask Asoka. The more the merrier."

Qshtik, you are 70 years old. During your working life your DOD contractor paid you in salaries that were fiat money.

Your new car was paid with fiat money. The food on your table, lovingly prepared by your beautiful wife, was bought with fiat money. Your house, ditto. Everything you own is thanks to fiat money.

So, yes, fiat money is good. The more the merrier.

As Dick Cheney said: "Deficits don't matter." Just spend more, and print more money. Easy.

For those who believe printing fiat money leads to inflation, I ask: "where's the inflation?"

After 70 years of fiat money the current inflation rate is around 1.1%.

With fiat money you can have a perpetual unemployment rate of 20% to 30% and no "revolutionary moment" because the entitlements fiat money makes possible prevent revolution from happening. Fiat money is good.

Fiat money means no chaos, fiat money means parking lots at box stores stay full, and fiat money means grocery stores shelves are never empty. Fiat money is good.

Yes, fiat money is good. It is the only money we have known in the 70 years of your life... and it has served us well.

If anyone believes fiat money is bad, it is probably because they have been listening to VonMises Austrians or Fox economic commentators.

There is no evidence, after 70 years of fiat money, that printing more and more and more fiat money is going to cause problems like inflation or deflation... all it is causing is consternation... among certain ideologues.

I forgot one other group of people who will try to convince you fiat money is bad: the sales people who are trying to scare you into buying gold and silver they are selling. They will provide you with very convincing arguments to get you to buy their useless product.

You can't eat gold or silver, nor would it be accepted as a medium of exchange at the local Piggly Wiggly to buy food. Gold and silver are useless inert metals.

Oh, but gold and silver are shiny! And they last a long time... whoooppeee! People are so gullible.

Meanwhile, you starve to death mesmerized by your useless shiny metals.

If government bonds are considered useless, then the US government is in big trouble.

Don't you think it's interesting that the full faith of the US government stands behind the bonds it sells to China and Saudi Arabia, but not to its own people?

And I am unable to speculate how people would react if their kids starting dying like flies. Who knows?

It takes a while for reality to affect beliefs and behavior anyway.

Thank you for explaining the math behind the policy.

But what's with the gratuitous women bashing?

Damn, you're on to me!

Now I must stop my evil plot.

Curses. Foiled again!

No one knows what the real internals of
economies are because there are multiple
layers of deception in the stats of most
countries. - E

Well said.

Never mind govt statistical agencies, I don't trust anything done by economists in general for reasons I've ranted about in the past so I won't bore you with it again.

I'd rather just talk to people and get their take on things. I spent a long time working for multinational companies. I was able to talk to colleagues working in different parts of North America and the world, ask them what they see and get their opinions. Their stories and anecdotes were just that but I was able to build up a picture of things.

Cash said: "Never mind govt statistical agencies, I don't trust..."

Reminds me of a bumper sticker I just saw:

Don't believe anything until it has been officially denied.

Right now there is no cash in the SS trust fund. - Bean

I saw a TV program where an interviewer went to the US govt building that housed the US govt IOUs to the trust fund. The interviewer asked the workers there to show some of them so they pulled out a file and laid a few of them out.

I think your larger point is that there's no such thing as a free lunch.

You're right, the way it looks now the future ability to pay people's social security entitlements depends on the US govt's ability to borrow money to make good on the amounts it owes to the trust fund. Americans are renowned in their lack of willingness to save money or pay tax so that means that the US govt is dependent on foreigners to borrow from to fund these entitlements.

Good luck with that.

Asoka reported on a bumper sticker that said: "Don't believe anything until it has been officially denied."

Asoka, just because its origin is the government does not mean it is a lie.

Democratic governments often issue truthful information since they are of the people, by the people, for the people and they have no reason or motivation to lie.

There are politicians who serve honestly and respect Truth.

Don't be paranoid like that the author of that bumper sticker message, Asoka.

The US ruling class is on a full-court press to convince people that Social Security is a luxury that we cannot afford.

That's why you see those scenes on the corporate media, Cash.

If they are determined to convince people that US government bonds are "just goddamn pieces of paper", like the Constitution, then we should go back to the pay-as-you-go system, where current workers pay for the previous workers' retirement.

There is no reason to let older people starve, in order that the rich can buy another Picasso.

We have been stricken by no plague of locusts, as FDR said.

Unless you count the greedy 1% who own 70% of the wealth, and are going for it all.

The drumbeat is building on Social Security again.

The Wall Street crew that wrecked the economy and already destroyed much of the home equity and savings of those near retirement is building up for another attack on Social Security.

The newspapers are again filled with news stories warning that if we don't fix Social Security it will face a shortfall in just 68 Freidman units (according to the Congressional Budget Office).

Actually, the stories usually don't point out the length of time (8 and a half presidential terms) until Social Security is first projected to face a shortfall. Rather they use ominous terms like "looming bankruptcy" or "insolvency."

The promulgators of the scare campaign often refer to the "IOUs" held by the Social Security trust fund when referring to the Treasury bonds held by the fund.

Of course all bonds can be called "IOUs," but they almost never are. This term is clearly meant to disparage the trust fund and imply there is something improper in its accounting.

That sort of language is fine, albeit still childish, if it appears on the opinion page. It has no place in a straight news story. The use of the term IOU in reference to the bonds held by the trust fund is an effort to undermine confidence in Social Security, not report the news.

Finally, technologically speaking, my own belief is then men will no longer be necessary for procreation, as biologic science will find ways for women to conceive without them.
==

There's more to men and women than procreation. There's the Family Unit. Without the family unit there's no civilization. Without this understanding and appreciation, basically what you've all been reduced to is a bunch of jackasses on Orwell's animal farm. But at least Jimmy gets it: - http://t.co/YELolvc

OK maybe you're right, maybe it really is a conspiracy to screw the average American out of a decent retirement. Maybe the trust fund really is flush with cash. Or maybe it WAS flush with cash until it was funnelled via devious and dishonest means to corrupt people and businesses and it's now sitting in offshore accounts or in the form of gold bars.

The thing is this Wage, the US govt is in the pocket of Wall Street, your captains of industry and middle eastern oil kingdoms. Criminals in the pockets of liars, thieves and despots.

Just look at what they've done. They've gutted your industries through offshoring, they've pillaged your Treasury to keep alive the banks they've ruined for the sake of their annual bonuses. Now they've got this three ring foreclosure circus where nobody even knows for sure what bank owns what mortgage on what house. Things are such a mess that some people, whose houses are free and clear, are even being foreclosed on.

All of this with the acquiescence and participation of your politicians.

The question you have to answer for yourself is this: do you trust your politicians to provide you with the financial security in your old age that they've promised? I'm not expecting an answer.

If it's any consolation we're facing similar circumstances in Canada. Our politicians are blowing all kinds of sunshine up our asses about how financially stable we are, about how rock solid our banks are, about how flush the Canada Pension Plan is, about how compassionate we are in comparison to our neighbours to the south by providing state health care.

The problem is that I wasn't born yesterday. I've worked in big business my whole life and I know what world class bullshit artists people in the corporate world are. I've looked at bank balance sheets and I defy ANYBODY to tell me what's in those line items, especially derivatives line items. IMO NOBODY has any real clue, not the auditors, not bank management, not bank CEOs, not bank CFOs. I've seen our vaunted health care system fall apart to the point where you cannot find a family doctor in large areas of our province. We knew in the 1990s that our state pension plan was in deep shit. Our politicians at the time did some fix em ups which the Plan's chief actuary said would not work and was fired for saying so.

I have no crystal ball and like everyone else I am dealing with fragmentary information, personal observations, bits of fact mixed in a swirl of state and corporate supplied lies and bullshit. So you should believe and do whatever you want. But in my opinion, the safe course of action is to provide for your own retirement without state support. At least that's what I did and hopefully I did enough. Time will tell.

The Chindians who glare at them are just hostile boobs
=========

I don't know what the hell is going on out there in CA but here in Jersey we've got Chindians out the wahzoo and I can honestly report that I've never received a hostile glare.

...here in Jersey we've got Chindians out the wahzoo and I can honestly report that I've never received a hostile glare. - Q

Chindians out the wazoo here too and I've never gotten a hostile glare.

Continuing on "The Wizard of Oz" theme....poppies, poppies, poppies will slow them down. TPTB have set up lots of smoke and mirrors. Let's not let them take our eyes off the prize...reshaping this country, the Earth, and rebuilding it into something sustainable and life-giving. Sorry, just rambling, "hubby" says I have to take a nap now. New round of parties this evening. I'll try not to bore you with the details. Carry on with the "fixing the world" thingy. Chiao! ;)

"Yes, fiat money is good. It is the only money we have known in the 70 years of your life... "

If I'm not mistaken, the dollar was supported by silver until 1968. Not saying they weren't already compounding the actual value by a factor of say, 10, at minimum, like banks are prone to do, but at least it wasn't based solely on "the perceived strength of the US economy," like it has been for the last 42 years.

Wait a minute. I think I figured out the ultimate question. We already know the answer is 42, and now we can take a stab at the question!

How long can the Earthling economic spin-meisters keep the global economy running on money that doesn't exist?

There it is! Although by my reckoning, that's pretty impressive. 42 years! Asoka, when did you say you started seeing the end? About 1968? Maybe you're more perceptive than even you give yourself credit for!

Among Marines in combat roles who said they have served alongside a gay person, 84 percent said there was no impact.

The other 16% -- bigoted straight Marines -- ought to be drummed out of service before they get someone killed.

Life has several operating principles, and a major one is TANSTAAFL - there ain't no such thing as a free lunch. Unfortunately, most Americans don't apply this wisdom in their daily lives.

42! Love it!

Gold lasted until 1933.
Silver lasted until 1964.
Paper is forever, baby!

As a holder of a federal reserve note, yesterday I had the ability to get lunch ... through the legal tender of fiat money.

Lunch was provided in exchange for the fiat note, and said note is worth more than the paper it is printed on. My stomach told me so.

"How long can the Earthling economic spin-meisters keep the global economy running on money that doesn't exist?

There it is! Although by my reckoning, that's pretty impressive. 42 years! Asoka, when did you say you started seeing the end? About 1968? Maybe you're more perceptive than even you give yourself credit for!" -Tripp

Damn! He saw the beginning of the end, but didn't factor in how much extraction could be covered by TV distractions and propaganda's multi-layered, multi-colored smoke to blow up the asses of the "folks". That really extended things out; which was the plan all along, I suppose.

42 years so far? Pretty fair lifetime for the biggest con of all time. The devolution continues. Pass the cheez doodles (I use 'em for mouse bait; some good eatin' there, if you catch enough of them).

I've seen our vaunted health care system fall apart to the point where you cannot find a family doctor in large areas of our province”.

Cash, what large areas of Canada are lacking in Doctors? Because I could make the same claim for the United States, especially in vast rural areas. Off the top of my head, I’ll bet there are areas in Alaska where a Doc cannot be found for 200 miles.

At any rate,I also have no faith in Big Biz types, so I will eagerly await the link/story/study that verifies your assertion.

With divorces running at 35% - 50% of marriages, and those figures don't count the unhappy marriages many couples choose to stay in, and with a society full of fucked-up people as a result, I'm not sure the concept of an ideal family is valid. A family can constitute many combinations of adults and children, not just a husband and wife.

I'm not against marriage, but as I have been happily married for 26 years after having been divorced once, I know a successful marriage requires a lot of hard work to remain healthy; many people seem incapable or unwilling to work for it.

Got a fat load of my medicine garden potted up and ready to roll. (That sounds like something completely different re-reading it;) But in this case I'm only talking about tea herbs. Dang it. Just need to stop and pick up the $19 pack of kid's Christmas photos at Penney's on the way out (even that was kind of a stretch;), and I do appreciate the laugh on the way out the door, my friend!

45 degrees and raining sure is a lot more pleasurable to my soul than 15 and windy, like it was earlier this week!

Tripp out.

Asoka said: Among Marines in combat roles who said they have served alongside a gay person, 84 percent said there was no impact.

The other 16% ...
==========

... said they were very careful to always use soap on a rope in the shower.

;-)

I don't disagree with anything that you say about politicians or capitalists, Cash.

I just don't draw the same conclusions that you do.

You say that the approx $2.4 trillion dollars that the US government owes American workers won't be paid back.

But you advise a "private" retirement fund. Would that be relying on the secret, but estimated to be over $65 trillion Wall Street bets?

I agree that the US government is treacherous, and is planning with the captains of industry to steal what is owed to us.

But why trust Wall Street?

Just look at who they turned to in 2008, when their house of cards collapsed.

Yep. The very same US government that you trust less than Wall Street.

Ironic, no? They trust the US government more than you do.

My alternative "retirement" plan is to sit here with my goats and chickens and hope that there are enough Oathkeepers to prevent the Federales from confiscating my land.

I'm hoping that they drum up enough fear of the American people to keep the fiat checks coming, if only to supply enough cash to keep the stores open.

But, unlike JHK, who fantasizes often about the peons marching on the Hamptons, I have no faith in the American people to pick appropriate targets, even if driven to revenge.

So far, suicide attackers have chosen Tennessee Unitarians, Texas IRS workers and a school board in Florida as targets!

Really? Pathetic!

In the world according to the G.O.P. commissioners, it’s all the fault of government do-gooders, who used various levers — especially Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the government-sponsored loan-guarantee agencies — to promote loans to low-income borrowers. Wall Street — I mean, the private sector — erred only to the extent that it got suckered into going along with this government-created bubble.

It’s hard to overstate how wrongheaded all of this is. For one thing, as I’ve already noted, the housing bubble was international — and Fannie and Freddie weren’t guaranteeing mortgages in Latvia. Nor were they guaranteeing loans in commercial real estate, which also experienced a huge bubble.

Beyond that, the timing shows that private players weren’t suckered into a government-created bubble. It was the other way around. During the peak years of housing inflation, Fannie and Freddie were pushed to the sidelines; they only got into dubious lending late in the game, as they tried to regain market share.

But the G.O.P. commissioners are just doing their job, which is to sustain the conservative narrative. And a narrative that absolves the banks of any wrongdoing, that places all the blame on meddling politicians, is especially important now that Republicans are about to take over the House.

Last week, Spencer Bachus, the incoming G.O.P. chairman of the House Financial Services Committee, told The Birmingham News that “in Washington, the view is that the banks are to be regulated, and my view is that Washington and the regulators are there to serve the banks.”

He later tried to walk the remark back, but there’s no question that he and his colleagues will do everything they can to block effective regulation of the people and institutions responsible for the economic nightmare of recent years. So they need a cover story saying that it was all the government’s fault.

In the end, those of us who expected the crisis to provide a teachable moment were right, but not in the way we expected. Never mind relearning the case for bank regulation; what we learned, instead, is what happens when an ideology backed by vast wealth and immense power confronts inconvenient facts. And the answer is, the facts lose. --Paul Krugman, NYT

Free lunch?

I have been working for 40 years, and still have many more to go.

Free lunch?

When Wall Street skimmers eat $1000 lunches from wealth that they did nothing to create?

Man! You are brainwashed!

You are so right in your post, Cash. I have a lot of experience dealing with very wealthy people, and that experience has shown me that most rich and powerful people truly don't care for the average person. They do tell the truth a lot - when it doesn't cost them anything - but if the truth would cost them, they wouldn't hesitate to lie. I really think the masses have no appreciation that the truly financially wealthy are not like them.

Money is not wealth.

Wealth is created by human labor acting upon the bounty that Nature provides.

It can be shared among all those who labor, or who have labored.

There is no reason that some people should appropriate all the money, while others starve, and are told that they are greedy for wanting to live.

Geez.

Beantown said: "...with a society full of fucked-up people as a result, I'm not sure the concept of an ideal family is valid."

The family is the primary transmitter of diseased values and neurosis in society. The family is where kids learn racism, militarism, and religious fanaticism ... that is what many parents are transmitting by word and example.

The family is a neurotic diseased institution.

We have a society based on the family. We end up with "a society full of fucked-up people" ... that's perfectly logical.

Hi Q! Nice to hear from you. You say:

Same old game with Asoka. For some reason he enjoys playing stoopid.

Stupid is the correct spelling ... and by now you should know I am not playing. I am stupid.

You are right in a lot of your post, Asoka. But the money taxed by the government for the Social Security Trust Fund has, in fact, been spent for operating budget items. Government bonds were issued to take the place of the tax money. You are correct that using the term IOU is a scare tactic, but the truth is, is that all bonds are, in fact, IOUs. And spending the money earmarked for people's retirement on other things, to me, smacks of dishonesty.

Banks, of course, do the same thing. You put money in a savings account. The bank doesn't leave it there, it invests your money at interest, otherwise how could it afford to pay YOU interest? If you need to withdraw your funds, the bank can do this, as long as everyone doesn't try to withdraw at once. Then you have a run on the bank. From past records, banks know approximately what percent of their total saving account funds will be withdrawn in normal times. Supposedly, that amount should remain in cash. But we don't really know if the bank really does this.

Beantown, a very intelligent person, said:

You are right in a lot of your post, Asoka.

You are brave to acknowledge that. Thank you.

Wage, I think you misunderstand me. TANSTAAFL is kind of an existential or philosophical principle that seems to be valid. And yes, it applies to everyone. Another description of this principle is that actions have consequences. If someone buys a house they can't afford, are there consequences? If someone's credit card balance is way too high to ever pay off, are there consequences? Having too much credit and using it to create too much debt is not a free lunch.

By operating principles of life, I mean trying to live my life being aware of these principles and trying to not violate them, as that brings heaps of misfortune pouring down on me.

Here's another one: Even though you can't succeed all the time, you also can't fail all the time.

So now you believe Dick Cheney? Are you now a Republican or just quantum gullible? Or maybe Dick was crossing his fingers when he said that - maybe he meant it didn't matter to his class.

The dollar is now worth a few pennies compared to what it was worth before institution of the Fed. Stoopid is as stoopid says.

Sure that what the 84% say now. What will they say a few years from now once the Gays have set up their networks? I predict it will be like what happened in the Church were whole Seminaries (no puns please) went gay and straight seminarians were pressured to put out or get out. So certain units will quietly go gay and the straights who wander in or who are assigned there will be persecuted. It is the Gay Way.

It is just as stupid and vicious as putting men and women together in the military. The difference is that men who are sexually harassed wont be listened to and will be lucky to avoid getting thrown into the brig for a hate crime. In the New World Order, Gay is good and can do no wrong. Thus the Westboro Baptist Church makes a valid point: the soldiers aren't fighting for "America" but for a Sodomite Empire.

Here's a few for you Buck:

http://mindentimes.ca/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=2889932

http://www.thestar.com/article/238755

http://www.newsdurhamregion.com/article/102428

http://openpolitics.ca/doctor+shortage

The first is a recent article in a town newspaper from Minden Ontario which is in tourist country north of Toronto. It's a summer holiday spot with a permanent population of around 6 thousand.

According to the second article as of 2007 there were a million people in Ontario without family doctors.

According to the third article in 2004 there were a million people in Ontario without family doctors. By 2008 that was reduced to 857,000. That's out of a population of 13 million.

Here's a quote from the fourth article;

In 2003, Canada had 59,454 doctors, or 1.9 per 1000 people. In a comparison of doctors-to-population, Canada places seventeenth out of 20 OECD countries. In order to rank first, Canada would have needed 48,000 more doctors—an 84 percent increase.

So this isn't something that's in the news every day. It's a situation that's gone on for a long time now. After a while the problem recedes into the background.

If you live in the greater Toronto area (population 5.5 million) you won't have any trouble but people living in smaller municipalities have trouble. We're not talking about remote settlements along Hudson Bay either, we're talking about places within a couple hours of Toronto.

From what I've read the problems started in the early 1990s when the socialist provincial govt of the time cut back funding for new medical students. At the time Ontario was in severe financial difficulty. So now we still have a shortage.

The deal is simple. We pay our taxes and the province promises to provide adequate medical care. So the message to the govt is likewise simple: do it.

This isn't the only province with problems of this type. In Alberta there's a political shitstorm brewing over long wait times in emergency wards.

Here's a reference for you:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/albertas-opposition-mlas-declare-code-red-on-hospital-wait-times/article1813514/

It's been a problem there for a while:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/calgary/story/2008/03/18/physician-survey.html

According to this article, in Quebec 2 million people are without a family doctor:

http://www.montrealgazette.com/opinion/topic.html?t=Organization&q=Quebec+College+of+Physicians

Statistics are slippery things. I rely more on what I'm hearing on the grapevine.

What happened to the Good German, Diogen? Several times, in a fit of Liberal Rage he asked me what else I hated or did I like anything or anyone. The second I already answered: I like many things and people. But I just thought of another hate: Women's Basketball. These ungainly behemoths are enough to turn anyone gay. Their lurchings and hustlings lack any of the grace of professional men's basketball.
They can't run or jump or anything execpt look bad. Women in golf, tennis, soccer, softball, or lacrosse still manage to move with grace - and sometimes even look attractive.
But women's basketball! Yet it is pushed beyond these others -probably a trial balloon to see if people can be made as interested in women's team sports as they are in men's. Either that or it is a Gay NWO Plot! Or both. Or neither. Maybe it just "happened". Yeah right - nothing just happens by accident but by the plans of people who are just happening themselves.

Cash said: "I rely more on what I'm hearing on the grapevine. "

==========

I'm curious if you ever hear praise for the Canadian medical system on the grapevine, or is the grapevine 100% negative?

U.S. Silver Coins:
When They Ended and What They're Worth

In the early 1960's, the silver supply for the nation's coinage was dwindling rapidly. As Congress and the Administration debated over silver's future role in coinage, the silver market jumped 10% immediately, and another 30% by 1962. This set the stage for the complete elimination [see exceptions below] of silver from our coinage by the end of 1964.

Any United States dime, quarter, half dollar or dollar that is dated 1964 or earlier is made of 90% silver. In the dime series, all coins dated 1965 or later are clad coins and contain no silver at all. Quarters dated 1965 or later are all copper-nickel clad coins except for the dual-dated Bicentennial Quarters that were sold by the Mint in special Mint Sets and Proof Sets. These quarters contain 40% fine silver and have an "S" mint mark. They are different from the Bicentennial quarters you can find in circulation and were sold by the Mint at a premium to collectors.

In the Kennedy Half Dollar series, the 1964 of course is 90% silver. Halves dated 1965 through 1970 contain 40% silver. Halves dated 1971 or later are copper-nickel clad coins with the exception again of the special Bicentennial halves sold in the Mint Sets and Proof Sets with the "S" mint mark, which are 40% silver. Among Eisenhower dollars, coins dated from 1971 through 1974 with the S mintmark are 40% silver. In addition, the special Bicentennial Sets contained 40% silver coins. All other Eisenhower dollars are copper-nickel clad coins.

The value of these modern coins is tied directly to the price of silver. At $12 per ounce, 90% silver coins are worth about eight times their face value. A dime would be worth about 80c, a quarter about $2, and a half dollar, about $4. At the same silver price of $12, 40% silver half dollars are worth approximately $1.60 each.

A personal note: Starting in 1965 I began to notice the rapid disappearance of pre-1965 silver coins (I frequently worked the Cashiers Cage at Duluth AFB in those days) from circulation. So I began to buy them from the till with paper money and sock them away. I have approx $500 face value of mainly dimes and quarters. If the conversion factor above is accurate - namely, a dime being worth 80 cents when silver is at $12/oz - my $500 is now worth about $10,000.


Who do you think bankrolled Communism? The Bankers! Don't get mad at Obama - he's just doing his job. He's an employee. The Bankers used people like you to thrown down traditional society. And they still hope to bring down America with it. And then they rule. Communists have been and are the "useful idiots" (Lenin) who unknowingly serve the people they supposedly hate. They bring down the middle class and small businesmen so that the Super Rich can have it all - including the political power which ensures that they will keep it permanently.
In reward for your service, they will probably grant you a position in a FEMA detention center interogating prisoners, I mean detainees/refugees. Just keep saying to yourself, "It's for the People. It's for the People. It's for the... Dorothy/Glinda - is there any difference anymore?

Bravo! You wove straw into gold. Silver is going to the moon and you are on board. Asoka is back on earth trying to break coconuts with an adobe brick. All his paper money will be good kindling for his adobe fireplace.

Buy more silver and help break Goldman Sach.

Qshtik's silver coins are sitting there doing nothing productive to feed, house, or clothe him.

My adobe bricks are absorbing sunlight at this very moment and the resulting heat means less fossil fuel is consumed to keep me warm.

Given a choice between silver or mud bricks, I would take the mud bricks. They are true wealth.

Macon : I assume you are putting the home up for sale?

My friend in Santa Clara says 'muslims dislike dogs'....are they Indians or Pakis? if so maybe they are muslims.

Vlad, Qtip, Asoka:

dont you know the only difference between a straight marine and a gay marine is a 6 pack of beer?

Its noteworthy to see that communism is from russia, as is the blood line of many US peeps who were jewish, then converted to atheism!

sdfasdf

Are they better than plain old Bricks or Cement for absorbing?

Wagelaborer asks, "Thank you for explaining the math behind the policy.

But what's with the gratuitous women bashing?"

First, there is no policy. Math has never informed any real policy. Math has only been used to dazzle and fool people as a diversionary tactic.

See "The biggest problem facing humanity is the lack of understanding of the exponential function." - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-QA2rkpBSY

Integral to these equations is this professor's point: these are exponential functions. What has the lack of their understanding delivered? Mass ignorance and resistance to truth, a wholesale caving-in of personal morality and sense of quality.

As to your second question, it was a hard-fought and repeatedly tested theory regarding the membership of one-half the population. You can say that discrimination is discriminatory, but for masses of classes of things, commonalities stick out.

Women ran the world- or rather, had men run it for them for hundreds of years, up until the 1960s, when, since revolution was already occuring, the least amount of effort was required. At this moment in history, millions of men helped women feel a new vicarious emotion, rebellion. Women, hoping to augment their stable of standby emotional preoccupations, rose up to take hold of this white-hot temptation and now we have the most fucked up population of females in the history of the world. A huge population of non-rational, giddy, sometimes batshit-crazy radical individualists who accept no responsibility, personally, for the effects of their actions, and girdle the planet with their leech-like constant gaping maw of need and feed on the natural bloodlines of the world. These paragons of capitalist power are anti-logic, anti-reason, anti-responsibility. Now they are devolving in the most utterly depraved of ways. Having achieved uber-Good-German status as worker bees for empire they have sacrificed mind, body, and child to the machine.

"They" are 3.5 billion gaping Uterii ready to unleash the ultimate destabilizing blow to the planet through their mindless biologic imperative. No free woman exists or has ever existed. When XX and XY meet, it is a conjoining of alien thought processes. XX is the anarchic, hidden face of nature. Within its genetic code is the annihilation of the human race.

Without the Y chromosome to cancel out the intrinsic degenerative nature of the X we would never have evolved to differentiate ourselves from the protoplasm existing everyway around ourselves.

Consider how shielded the female is from criticism. Consider how insular her focus is, how obliviously self-interested. Observe the subjugation of reason before raw emotion. The best possible course of action is to air out these aspects of femininity to the light of day. Can women be reformed? I fucking doubt it. But at the same time I do not advocate any kind of regressive social policy toward them as a class. No, they're regressing on their own. It is the arc of their lives that shows this trajectory, from childishness to incipient adulthood, and then back into childishness.

As I mentioned earlier, human reproduction is fool-proof. That is, evolution (which desires a robust reproductive rate) had no stake in granting any higher brain power to the Uterus-bearing half of the species. It demanded the perfect fool and that is what it got. Women are biochemically engineered to be stupid and get pregnant. We all applaud the exceptions to the rule, but I don't. I don't celebrate this condition as I don't denigrate people with other congenital birth defects. The idiocy of womankind is as the idiocy of the mentally retarded- ultimately blameless.

What is crucial to everyone, though, is the tyranny of women's needs. That basis of need is consumptive and expansive in nature. And plenty of very dumb, very congenitally-challenged men are part and parcel of the problem. But bashing men for being stupid is nothing new. The shield that surrounds women is the gaping blind spot on the intellectual and social horizon.

I go back and forth on this: that women are in fact smart enough to control the world; as I mentioned, they had basically an iron grip for hundreds of years. Taking the long view, this didn't work out so well for so many women in so many instances, that you begin to perceive a pattern. A pattern of radical self-absorption coupled with short-term interest. You often slap your forehead wondering why some woman got pregnant by some crackhead and had a baby! Well, it was a wonderfully successful scheme evolution engendered: total unawareness of the world outside the self.

This culture is built for the comfort and self-fulfillment of women. If we say the culture is corrupt, or dying, or spreading its tentacles around the world, we are denying reality to say that, because these are a special class of people of whom we should not regard with objective interest, but shower with privilege and special interest, they aren't the cause of these problems.

The fact is that the United States has a service economy primarily because most women hold the wealth. Men who were drawn in and trapped in their near-term schemes of total withdrawal labored for them, accumulated capital to support them, and then died leaving them their money.

I could go on about the grotesque characteristics of men, but that is unremarkable. What is remarkable is the frankness with which I am willing to say, "These bitches are fucking crazy!" and the complete obliviousness to which people treat these clearly definable gender-related problems as root causes for social, cultural, economic, ecological, and political degeneration.

Men are humanity's only hope- still more frightening is that there are few of them left- the rest are simply bag-men for their uterii-bearing lieges, I like to call them slaves, and enough of them have confessed as much with a shrug or chuckle in personal exchange.

Our future rests on the fulcrum of femininity because, at least in America, child-rearing (and thus, programming) have been seized completely by females. Today, most children are raised by females, put in schools and programmed by more females, subjected to marketing efforts against (toward) children by corporations whose boardmembers and shareholders are women. Parenthood, sadly, is an exercise of the most coarse training in doctrines of woman-worship, anti-creativity, obedience, and outright irrationality, as to constitute not ONLY child abuse, but a threat to the future of humanity as embodied in the children as successors and inheritors of the human legacy.

Is that a good enough answer for you? If you would like me to clarify, just ask.

sdfasdf
======

iitywimwybmad

Hope you get an inflatable doll for Christmas.

Is that a good enough answer for you?
=========

That's about as good a rant as I've ever read here at CFN. What it boils down to Wage is that Bustin hasn't managed to get laid in years.

;-)

Vlad, what you need is thermal mass with heat diffusivity. Adobe has a specific heat of 0.2 which is the same as concrete, stone, and brick, (hollow concrete blocks not so much since they are not solid thermal mass)

Adobe has a really good coefficient of heat diffusivity which results in its releasing heat more slowly than the other materials which all have higher diffusivity. It's the slowness that allows for the "flywheel effect" that allows adobe to keep you warmer longer.

Huh??

Bustin, you are obviously very intelligent, but now I'm wondering if your train went to the wrong station. Talking about population control, you made some good points, but with your diatribe against women (unless you were joking), you are in 8MM territory, orbiting around Pluto. Do we add you to the list of Vlad, TBU and Co.?

You are correct about exponential functions, but many other non-linear functions that could describe a human activity cause us problems; it's just that exponential functions get us there quickest.

Eluthero says, "However, like econometrics, I think
demographic futurism is kind of a
bogus "science" no matter how dressed
up in exponential formulae."

Oh really? Well, as a scientist I can assure you, the exponential function is integral to the nature of reality. If your models don't include its consideration, they absolutely will fail. Secondly, "demographic futurism" implies there is some sort of doctrine behind the practice of growth rate extrapolation or population prediction. There is no doctrine. It is as valueless and impartial as Pythagorean's Theorem. Newtonian physics is the intersection between math and reality for most people, and guess what, it means that there is a high certainty for things that have measurable physical properties over time. The train arrives near enough to its predicted time based on a velocity calculation. In the same way a mass of trains with similar characteristics follow suit; as all other physical objects are restrained by gravity.

The human organism is exactly like other animals, they have predictable growth rates, and the models are good enough to sleep soundly at night without waking up in a cold sweat. The lunar lander did not overshoot the moon because math was inadequate at handling parameters when it was 230,000 miles form Earth. Eratosthenes' measurement of the earth's circumference using a couple of sticks and geometry 2200 years was not a demonstration of the failure of mathematical models to correctly predict solutions that were out of sight and nearly unimaginable. And the gross population of human beings on Earth is not an unimaginably complex problem.

Incorporating Nassem Taleb's objection to certainty in predicting future results by claiming that the math makes things "certainly so", I will point out again, that there is a +/- variation a the end of a 100-year projection of human population based on the exponential function of growth, much wider that, say, the exact time an apple dropped from 10 feet will hit the ground. What the model tends to show is that a given human population with a growth rate, all other things being equal, over a certain range of time, will be mathematically X the same way math shows a given apple, dropped from Y height will achieve Z velocity before meeting the ground, at time T.

Taleb used fundamental analysis to short the market in 2008 and made a bazillion dollars. That was because he used a mathematical model, not in spite of it. The people who lost money did not pay attention to the fundamental mathematical logic that governs value. They believed that other things ensured value, like the bluff and bluster of the banking or economic sector.

If there is a fallacy here, I have not made it with a simple population growth calculation. The equation is elegant and simple. And its conclusions are not highly descriptive or prescriptive. They are simply answers. And I think I covered all the outlier exceptions that will make the real result diverge from the projection. I don't pretend that the answer (number) will occur as if I am betting roulette. And neither should you. But mathematic models are an excellent basis for policy because we have somewhere to START that isn't complete bullshit.

As such I advocate a reduction in birth rate because it is a mathematically valid concept; all others I have heard (crickets) suck ass and are the product of emotion, personal prejudice, religion, or fantasy. And none other produce a workable theory for addressing the issue. So why doesn't anyone advocate it?

Because politicans don't use reason or math or science to push policy or design initiatives. We have a government composed of rhetoricians and a people composed of the illogical and irrational. I used to be bummed about this but the fact is logic is fundamentally strong.

I see history as one long drawn out fight between Logic and illogic. Logic loses tons of battles but it has better fundamental characteristics.


"There are too many exogenous variables
whose exact values are unknown." Covered.

"For
example, we're rather overdue for
something like Spanish Influenza. No
one knows if some Ebola or West Nile
like thing lies in wait."

This is a non-objection. The models that support those contentions about infectious disease are infused with astronomical amounts of uncertainty compared to a simple parameter like population growth.

"No one knows
if N. Korea or Iran or some other crackpot
country will launch on a neighbor."

There will always be Black Swans but that is not a sufficient reason to reject population control measures, as any effect of disease or national military adventure is likely to have anywhere near the same massive detrimental effect as chronic overpopulation.

"No
one knows what the real internals of
economies are because there are multiple
layers of deception in the stats of most
countries."

The goal of fundamental analysis is to strip away the bullshit and evaluate as objectively as possible. It IS possible to know how out of hand the deficit is, or how underwater people are on their mortgages, or how deep the foreign debt load of Uganda is. This is just a fallacy of arguing from ignorance.

The other 16% ...
==========
... said they were very careful to always use soap on a rope in the shower.
;-)

You have a point, Q. Those poor vulnerable heterosexual Marines will now need special protection to survive against the strong manly rapacious predator gays.

It's the slowness that allows for the "flywheel effect" that allows adobe to keep you warmer longer.
=========

What if what you want is to be cool? Let's say, late July in Santa Fe. I guess it must work ... I've been to Santa Fe and adobe is used there extensively.

Qtip ronculated," Your post is a real flight of fancy. Either you have a vivid immagination or you're a science fiction buff."

I have a vivid imagination and am a science fiction buff. In fact, I started to doubt my own dismissal of spaceflight and the gathering of resources from other planets within the next century. After some speculative thought I agree that it may be plausible. After all what the fuck is a space program for? Establishing new venues of televised entertainment? If there's gold in them thar hills, we'll go get it, won't we. And the technology is marching right along. NASA just test flew a unmanned shuttle craft and the Russians are busy trying to catch up in the astro-robot creation race. What are these bots going to do on other planets? Lets look at the progression. Take pictures. Take samples. Identify material. Bring it back to Earth. Even Bush talked about mining the moon for H3. Its a crazy fucking idea but we just might do it.

Qshtik asked: "What if what you want is to be cool?"

=========

This reminds me of a joke. The first time a guy saw a thermos bottle. His friend explained that it kept cold things cold and warm things warm. The guy couldn't believe it and asked: "But how does it know?"

Q, the earth has its own wisdom. It knows.

"Banks, of course, do the same thing. You put money in a savings account. The bank doesn't leave it there, it invests your money at interest, otherwise how could it afford to pay YOU interest? If you need to withdraw your funds, the bank can do this, as long as everyone doesn't try to withdraw at once. Then you have a run on the bank." -BTB

Yep, it's what's commonly known as a Ponzi scheme.

Fun things are happening in the ongoing international real estate shit sandwich fest.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/18/world/europe/18spain.html?src=me&ref=general

Paul Krugman's take on the financial crisis.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/17/opinion/17krugman.html?src=me&ref=general

Who's interpretation are you going to believe, a celebrated NYT columnist or some internet troll named tzatza?

The United States military is now one step closer to the beloved Western Civilization of Vlad Krantz. Like the ancient armies of Greece, American soldiers will now have the back of a lover or potential lover on the field of battle. What could be more ferocious than lovers fighting for each other??

http://www.livius.org/a/1/greece/lovers.jpg

"I see history as one long drawn out fight between Logic and illogic. Logic loses tons of battles but it has better fundamental characteristics." -Bustin J

Yep, logic (and the propulsion system of the universe) always has the last laugh... even if it's a bit of an hysterical cackle amongst the smoking ruins. But wherever you go; there you are! ;o)

So we ruled until a couple of hundred years ago? So what changed it - technology? I agree to a large extent: for every smart woman there are 20 smart men. As the Tennyson put it:

Woman is the lesser man,
And her passion matched with mine,
Is like moonlight unto sunlight,
And water unto wine.

So we should be in control - but have we always been good masters? My Dad dominated my Mom, but my sympathies were mostly with her. After that, I never saw much of the much maligned male domination. Mostly I saw women getting over on men in one way or another.

My theory: there are far more male geniuses and male retards and criminals. Women look down and feel superior but never look up and see the superior men. Modern women refuse to acknowledge the superior portion of the male population. Of coure, the retard and criminal segment is far larger so they can take shelter in that fact. Women are the ultimate mundane majority.

No future for Western Man unless we change back and throw out the dark ones:

http://www.dumpert.nl/mediabase/463211/91dae0db/cctv_van_zomaar_een_franse_bus.htmll

Hey the dog is in there too! Have fun, perv. But you're right: the Greeks were very decadent. When a culture is at its apogee, it's very near to its end just as a balloon fully expanded is ready to pop.

Also cultures that sequester women away end up fostering homosexuality. As Hannibal Lecter said, you covet what you see everyday. The Greeks were like the Muslims in this: both systems produce alot of gays or at least gay activity.

Where are you Myrtle May?

for every smart woman there are 20 smart men.

Vlad, I thought it had been proved that women are way smarter than men. That's what Mrs. Asoka told me anyway, and she way smarter than me.

Hey, Vladdie-boy.

So from the last couple posts I gather you're a homophobic, racist, sexist fascist. (Feel free to change this characterization if you want, though I feel it is well justified.)

At least you wear your ideologies on your sleeve. I'm not a judgmental type, so I won't judge.

I wonder, though, if you ever have trouble implementing these philosophies in your day-to-day life.

Like, you say you're a fascist, but I'm wondering how does this relate to your mundane existence of posting rants on the interwebs.

Or you say that the brown people need to get out, but what happens when you waiter at the restaurant or whatever doesn't meet your standards of racial purity.

You don't tip? You tell them to go back to Mexico? You don't eat at restaurants?

Please bring me into your scary little world.

Does gay mean happy? Gays die nearly twenty years before other people from either suicide or disease. And this is true even in places like Holland which completely accept it.

Is telling the truth racist? I mean Blacks DO have a very low IQ. I didn't make that -that's what scientists have found. Nor am I God so it's not my fault. And nearly all great artists, scientists, and mathematicians are men. Is it a crime to notice the obvious? You have a real problem with Truth, Turk. I can just echo Alexander Solzhenitsyn to you, "Live not by Lies".

"Macon : I assume you are putting the home up for sale?"

I think I already have it sold! To a like-minded black couple who live on the other side of town. They are renting now, and see things going down pretty much the same way most of us here do, and I offered pretty sweet terms to get them in. They then countered with just borrowing some family money and buying it outright. We'll see how it shakes out in the end, but it looks promising.

If they don't pan out, there's the next like-minded black couple that lives a few blocks west of us...

I doubt we'll even have to list it on Craigslist.

No future for Western Man unless ...
=========

I'm totally baffled. Turkle posts a link about the real estate crisis in Spain and you reply with a video showing rowdy young men in a bus in the Netherlands.

????

Is it a crime to notice the obvious?
==

But you don't notice the obvious. That's the thing. What you do instead, is parrot the banksters' nazi propaganda and falsify reality by making generalizations where none can be made. So a handful of showcase Jews placed on display and given supreme attention, then become DA JOOOS CONTROL THE WORLD, when in reality Jews are the least in control of anything. Same applies to your generalities on just about every subject. You talk about IQ, but you're unable to distinguish particular from the general, or good from evil. That's a display of low IQ. You talk about survival as the highest morality, but without ethics there is no survival. Unfortunately, your IQ is not high enough to grasp that. And so your low IQ and your innate bloodthirsty inclinations has condemned you to a life of solitude, and race baiting on the internet as form of stimulation to try and relieve that solitude and misery.


Are you capable of writing a response
shorter than the Gettysburg Address??

Economists, psychologists, sociologists,
and other faux "scientists" have formulae
full of logarithms and exponentials. It
doesn't make anything "scientific" any
more than possession of a telescope makes
one an astronomer.


E.


Your scathing diatribe of Vlad out-Vlads
Vlad. It lacks all nuance or tempered
judgement. You have no idea that he
lives a life of "solitude and misery".
You have no idea what his IQ is and, I
suspect, I'd bet you it's well above
average.

I don't like his lack of introspection
on what the WHITE race is becoming in
America but it's just patently false
that ALL of his racial conjectures are
utterly lacking in factual backing.

I think your main problem is that he
does not like your ethnic group. I
agree that the Jooz are not the point
source of all evil in Western life.
However, his assertions about other
ethnicities have considerable backing.

He's just NOT as evil as you'd like to
believe.


E.

The letter "E" said, "Are you capable of writing a response
shorter than the Gettysburg Address??"

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=how+many+words+in+the+gettysburg+address

Geez. Its only 272 words. I can do better.

Here, I'll use a tenth... no, a HUNDREDTH.. 2.72 words: are you ready...?

"go fuck yourse

E also exclaimed, "Economists, psychologists, sociologists,
and other faux "scientists" have formulae
full of logarithms and exponentials. It
doesn't make anything "scientific" any
more than possession of a telescope makes
one an astronomer."

Wrong again!(Their formulae are filled with logarithmae and exponentiae).

The fact is that if you use a scientific calculator, you're doing science, unless you're doing your taxes, in which case, you're an economist. What are you if you're using a Tickle Me Miley Cyrus calculator app on your Droidfone? I don't know.

I really mean this, look, its simple: if you're using log functions in real life, on real life type things, you're not performing calculations on stuff. You use log functions because you need to reason about numbers that don't exist in your hand-to-mouth reality.

Quote-wikipedia- " Logarithms are useful for solving equations in which the unknown appears as the exponent of some other quantity. For example, logarithms are used to solve for the half-life, decay constant, or unknown time in exponential decay problems. They are important in many branches of mathematics and the sciences and are used in finance to solve problems involving compound interest."

The unknown here is population size (at time x).
The exponential increase, of growth rate multiplied by years is applied to the starting population size.

Da result is Science.
Check the credentials on some of the links I posted. I think you'll

Bustin J says:


Because politicians don't use reason or math or science to push policy or design initiatives. We have a government composed of rhetoricians and a people composed of the illogical and irrational. I used to be bummed about this but the fact is logic is fundamentally strong.

Yes BJ, and I continue to be "bummed" about the fact that even in an Internet forum that is suppose to used to build on mathematical theory (Peak Oil) as a means to a more designed end to our current status - we have mostly ass-holes blowing smoke about their favorite pimples.

I've made numerous noise about how there is more than enough statistical information available to design time lines regarding the future production and consumption rates of petroleum.

But given the current evolution of America into a strict oligarchy one might not have reason to care about social consensus on any issue.

A revolution of logic over farce is needed indeed not useless ranting.



Is white male superiority sacrosanct?

When it comes to discussing IQ in minorities or the lack of greatness of women artists you need to take into consideration how cultural bias works in any given society and how it's expressed even in academia. We are all culture-bound in the way we interpret context to measure some of these factors.

For instance, I wouldn't count on academia for objective thinking collectively. I have mentioned before that supply side economics and free trade is very much espoused by our academicians and think tanks, all supposedly intellectual people who have graduated from prestigious colleges. It is clear that the global debt based economics is destructive to valuable activity and the middle class the world over. Look where it's brought us.

The way I see it is that there are different ways intelligence is expressed and everyone brings something different to the table. There really is no way to truly measure quality in a quantitative way. Or should I say it would be a mistake to do so. There's more than one way to define intelligence or talent; who has it or doesn't.

The Chinese developed a strong aesthetic component in their thinking and culture which was expressed in every aspect of their societal expression from their language to their calligraphy. In contrast the West developed both the aesthetic and technical components. A good example would be gun powder which the Chinese used for fireworks instead of weapons. Whereas we all know how the west used gun powder.

Years ago art historians put together a package of slides including an historical perspective of women artists from the Renaissance to present time.

Surprised to see their work, I too wondered how they had remained so obscured. It was suggested that although some of these women enjoyed success in their lifetime, they were not further studied by historians writing their theses or dissertations in graduate programs in Art History. That alone could account for a lack of information about people who have in fact been part of the dialog, but have disappeared over time.

Just sayin' I would be hard pressed to make an over-all statement as Vlad does to claim that the testing of IQs or value judgments of artists make for a reality of white male supremacy.

The reality is that when a quantitative approach is used to define a qualitative factor the answers become more sticky