The Surrealist Vista

     Some profound seismic infarction deep in civilization's very soul - brought on, no doubt, by the sludgy buildup of vast swindles and frauds - now propels deadly tsunamis toward the land masses where money dwells. And when they break over the shorelines of banking and capital, little may be left standing.
     The latest rogue wave broke about ten days ago, when an orgy of foreclosure revealed massive irregularities in mortgage contracts and property titles, suggesting a slovenliness so arrant and broad that even the states' attorneys general woke from their narcoleptic raptures of golf to shut down transfers of distressed property. But this was only after the banks themselves declared "moratoria" in a perhaps vain attempt to forestall further discovery of their countless misdeeds. And somewhere along in there the title insurance industry had a whack attack.
     During this period a new cliché issued from a million pie-holes: the rule of law. Well, as Joni once sang to we happy Boomers, "...you don't know what you got 'til it's gone...." 
     To systematically ignore the niggling, stodgy lawful protocols regarding contract documents - notarization, due diligence, various dotted "i"s and crossed "t"s - was easy on the way up Fraud Mountain. On the ride down, though, it turns out all those niceties comprised the braking apparatus,  Now the cargo of swindles is accelerating out-of-control and breaking apart. Suddenly this cliché - the rule of law - begins to assert its meaning for this nation of slobs, morons, and grifters, to the degree that even lawyers begin to understand what's at stake (as opposed to just how much they can get paid), though the bankers may never learn.
     The upshot is that the real estate industry is on ice indefinitely. Nobody dares to buy or sell property because there is no way of knowing who actually owns it, whether the chain of title is on-the-level, whether (or not) there is a document somewhere with coffee mug rings and taco sauce stains denoting the past and current owners of, say, a half acre of sawgrass scrub with an abandoned harlequin brick ranch-house full of mold feasting on damp sheet-rock in the unspeakable South Florida humidity.
     The US real estate racket was already in enough trouble with the collapse of bubble pricing and then the consequent effect on untold tons of mortgage-backed securities and derivatives of them buried in the vaults of banks, insurance companies, municipal investment accounts, pension funds, and other repositories of trust. It certainly has been known for years that the value of these clever instruments is somewhere south of where they represent themselves to be - but since the crash of 2008 accounting legerdemain kept a lid on that putrid stew. The new wave of mortgage and title fraud now threatens to drive their value down to zero, that is, quite a bit lower than even the previous worst-feared estimates of mark-to-market apocalypse.
      These bundles of bonds of bundled mortgages are now so infected with impropriety that the bundlers themselves might just have to buy them back and eat the losses, and in so doing watch the value of their companies whirl down the drain, and then, after losing their jobs, their incomes, their private jets, and all the other blandishments of the high life, face prosecution and any number of years assigned to a steel slab bed and a ping-pong career in some correctional facility. That is, if we are even able to recover some fragment of the rule of law from the landfill of good intentions.
     The trouble is, that the damage is so severe through every institution concerned with the operations of money (including the US government) that none of these fatal monkeyshines can be mitigated. Or, to put it as Barack Obama's predecessor did, so neatly, "...this sucker could go down." After all, what are the practical remedies for property the ownership of which can't be established? And upon which are claims and obligations that underlie the very value of money in this society? The rights of property form the basis of Anglo-American law. Subtract them and all bets are off. Literally.
     Schemes akin to a debt jubilee are already being floated - which might sound dandy in theory, but would very neatly thrust the USA back to a standard of living equal to that in the year 1690. In other words, you can shake off your debts, but be prepared to spend the rest of your days picking stones out of your daily lentil ration before turning in on a bug-infested straw pallet next to the hog-pen, care of which is your new career.
     Or perhaps your idealism runs along a different track and you would prefer to just let the government come in and take ownership of virtually everything and then decide who ends up getting what? While I am personally not tortured by nightmares of what the Tea-baggers imagine "socialism" to be (i.e. fears that the gubment will insert a computer chip in your gonads, confiscate your Go-Go Ultra X Electric Travel Scooter, and restrict your monthly admissions to the Talladega Superspeedway) I can easily see functional limitations on something like the old dictatorship of the proletariat - especially when said proletariat has been reduced in this country to some kind of a lumpen slobeteriat of methadrine-addled, tattooed psychopaths with axes to grind.
     Or maybe you prefer the realm of anarchy, where a few plucky souls decide to stop playing ball with their creditors, on the grounds that they can probably get away with it due to all those slip-ups and oversights in contract review... and the idea goes viral across the nation that nobody has to make his or her payments on anything owed... and screw those bankers, anyway. "You want me? Come and get a piece of me!" Well, that route has its disadvantages, too, pretty much quickly resolving in the end-of-civilization-as-we-know-it, since after the first delirious weeks of non-payment everything based on money comes to a halt. Enjoy that one while you can.
     In any event, meanwhile, property transfers will cease and the money bound up in them will not circulate, and interest not paid and - well, it's a chain of consequence leading to banks not functioning, businesses going down, people not getting paid, goods not being shipped, and something like a long emergency getting underway. The outcome is not any different from the anarchy option, except you must remember that a lot of the things that end up broken will never be put back together again.
     This is therefore what the late, great Eudora Welty might have called... a still moment - the boundless interval of grave recognition that something momentous is occurring. Where we stand is something like the doorway of a surrealist painting leading to a blue sky dotted with puffy little clouds - which is deceptively reassuring, until you realize that the solid earth is nowhere in sight. The truth is, nobody has a clue what happens next, most particularly the folks in charge of things.
      All we know in this still moment is that the hoary old rule of law no longer obtains. It's on everybody's lips because everybody knows that some epochal slippage has occurred, and in the dark maw exposed by that slippage a lot will be lost.
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646 Comments

Great... Can be I be one of those really stupid wankers that claims FIRST? Even if it is for just this little itty bitty message from the Great Man Himself?

Sure, must be your lucky day. I hope I haven't stolen anyone's chance to claim SECOND! :) Dental adventures are always fun, esp. when you get the big bill in the mail even though you have insurance...

I insist that we play rock-paper-scissors for who gets to be FIRST!

from :

http://kunstler.com/blog/2010/10/bank-shot.html


"Look at what was invented in the 19th/early 20th century.

Internal combustion engine, rail transportation, electric light, electric motors, powered flight, refrigeration, telegraph, radio, television, mechanization of agriculture, the theory of relativity, quantum mechanics...you could go on and on.

What have we invented that was remotely as transformational as those inventions above? You want to talk "new economy" you have to look back a hundred plus years.

I think what we've done in recent decades is puny. The internet in my opinion is exceedingly small potatoes in comparison. Space flight maybe?

So are we mental midgets in comparison to those days?"


The low hanging fruit is the easiest to get: all of those inventions, which are huge were the simplest to make, the low hanging fruits. Those were the first to be picked, but as Science and Technology progresses, it becomes increasingly difficult to pick valid fruits (if there are even many left at all) since they are hanging much higher, like fusion energy, or Man trips to Mars, etc.

You can discover Electricity only once, the natural world does not offer another discovery as powerful, all encompassing and incredible as Electricity: this is a one time free quirk of nature and the laws of physics and how we, as humans, are configured with respect to nature with just the right combination of sense organs and mental contraptions to process and interact with reality.

The same can be said of Calculus and Mathematics, Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, etc. Silicon technology and Microprocessors and Moore's law and heck, even the electric guitar and rock music are really all one time quirks, free lunches, something that can be discovered only once, and I doubt very much that in the future there will be any other such huge discoveries even possible. What we have now is the problem of how to use these discoveries, and that becomes a political problem.

Maybe the only thing really left is the direct manipulation of brain - mind, the direct changing of our neural circuits, implanting chips in brains, experimenting with all kinds of drugs and wild chemicals in brains, creating Instant Singularities in the brain, virtual realities, etc. But this does not really imply "new discoveries" as those huge ones mentioned previously were like Electricity and Flight, but self manipulation of the brain and body, this is more chemical and drugs and "health care" - "pharmaceutical" and maybe "computer - virtual reality" based than anything else.

Good. Then I won't need my 5-buckle overshoes until this afternoon.

Visitors to this site who are interested in financial speculation and who are aware of the implications of the foreclosure controversy might wish to buy the security "FAZ", which increases in value when bank stocks decline. It was a little off at the open this morning, Monday, Oct. 18, at a price a little below 13, because Citigroup reported stronger earnings. In 2008, it was above 1200.

The facts of the foreclosure controversy are bad enough, but I am further impressed by the culture of pervasive criminality that we are beginning to see with individual homeowners who they have attacked. How terrible to be victimized like this! It will take strong leadership to re-establish a clear chain of title for homes across the country, and from what corner will it come?

You could have given an unemployed local guy a break and let me do the dental work. I have a pair of pliars and can see OK with my reading glasses.

come on, THESE SAME BANKS got only a few trillion when they went crying to the taxpayers...you really expect this to be a great shorting opportunity? when everyone in the WURLDz thinking the same thing?

when THESE SAME BANKS own the people that make the laws in this cuntry? when THESE SAME BANKS simply get the lawmakers to legally change accounting rules to hide the fact they're really insolvent/BROKE?

in other words, GOOD LUCK on those shorts fella.

welles makes a great point. Since the prevalence of derivatives, etc. it has seemed clear to me that banks are such a dysfunctional mockery of the concept of a "business" that anyone would be a fool to invest in them. As many economic commentators have pointed out (JHK included) they still own mountains of toxic financial waste, albeit their ill effects have been partially postponed by the removal of the mark to market rule.

But on top of that the banking business is largely dictated by government (defining government broadly enough to include its "independent" Frankenstein creation the Federal Reserve). Government dictates interest rates, hence the yield curve, hence how much money banks can make on interest. Government dictates the amount of money banks are allowed to create out of thin air as a multiple of their reserves. And of course, banks were bailed out up the yin yang when they got into an immediate crisis. (Fortunately, taxpayer losses have been minimized on account of the fiction that banks are healthy having driven their stock prices up, allowing them to sell new shares to hapless investors, with the end result being that the witless investors will be the main losers when the banks are exposed as still being houses of cards.

The conclusion of all this is that banks are not "real" businesses in any sense, and thus one is a fool to invest in them. Their fate is subject to the whim of government. So far that means they have been propped up, but I believe the political climate is not liable to allow that to continue forever. But, bottom line is that their fate is largely determined by bureaucrats.

True investing involves assessing a business and determining whether it is competently managed, financially sound, produces products that fill an important need, and is relatively free of political risk.

The large banks possess none of these attributes.

One point I failed to make clear is that because the fate of the banks is largely based on the whims of bureaucrats, it is foolish to invest in them period, either to buy long or to short.

"...be prepared to spend the rest of your days picking stones out of your daily lentil ration before turning in on a bug-infested straw pallet next to the hog-pen, care of which is your new career." Another slam of eating beans paired with the assumption of continued meat production.

Lynn
http://www.10in10diet.com/
For a small footprint and a small grocery bill

If you are not already engaged in strengthening your body, calming your mind, growing your own food and building local community....it is probably too late.

JHK said: "All we know in this still moment is that the hoary old rule of law no longer obtains."

The rule of law very much obtains and is in no danger of not obtaining. Just ask the 2+ million people housed as a result of the rule of law in our nation's prisons.

The establishment structure -- the rule of law -- is not even showing cracks.

JHK wrote:

"and the idea goes viral across the nation that nobody has to make his or her payments on anything owed"

Isn't this happening already? How many folks are simply sitting in their homes w/o paying mortgages, knowing that the lenders will take years to find them? If debt moratoriums become widespread, we'll get a systemic collapse in short order. I never used to believe such things possible.

The system was built on trust and consequences. Now not just the lumpenproles but the property owners lack trust in authorities (gubment and bizness) that once could have held them responsible.

I notice JK went a little easier on the tea parties this time around.

The fact is, although they don't have a very good idea what's going on, at least they have enough instincts to sense that something is very wrong.

Contrast that with the Paul Krugmans of the world, who think everything can be solved by printing up trillions of dollars and dropping them from helicopters.

Well put.
I think the problem now is just as you say; where do we go from here with the foreclosure fraud? This is the first time since 2005 that i could not draw a vector for a future outcome, even a wrong one. There is no way out of this that I can see.
As ugly as it is to face; it may be anarchy now.

...fears that the gubment will insert a computer chip in your gonads.

That's why I wrap my scrotum with aluminum foil to block the transmissions.

-----------------------------

Thanks, Jim, for my weekly dose of outrage.

Yes, the "tea party" knows there's something wrong, but their solution is more of what got us where we are. Kunstler is right, whatever the outcome it probably won't be desirable; the political system is too corrupt and dominated by two corporate-funded parties to effectively solve such problems. Here's an article on the coming inflation and high oil prices that will further ruin the U.S. economy: http://news.lesswaiting.com/101810.shtml

Asoka:

The Rule of Law is supported by the acquiescence of the People. If people start disobeying the Law en masse, there goes the rule of law.

Norman Conquest
(since 1066)

This is the best post you have written in a long time. Perceptive and right on. Terrific commentary I must say.

Jimbo! Lighten up! The Fed has a new secret plan to make it all right again.

See the details at http://www.thenothingstore.com

Jimmy, Jimmy, Jimmy.... you know, I first drank your Kool-Aid over a year ago and it took about a year for me to realize how wrong we both were. The world is not coming to an end, it is not time to buy guns and grow food, and believe it or not people will actually still buy and sell real estate in the future. I went back and read your "predictions" for over a year and could not find an instance where you were correct (yet). You may be in the future, but I doubt it. You are such a perfect contrarian indicator I think I'm gonna git me one of those Maui condos.....

How is this for a bailout scenario?

Say Ben prints trillions of dollars and instead of giving them to the banks directly (as he probably will), pays off everyones' mortgages and other debts in one fell swoop.

Like that will ever happen.

What appears to be happening is a total freeze on the Real Estate business. Now that the ownership paper is suspect, title companies won't insure and banks won't lend.

I'm hoping my local bank didn't sell off my mortgage to be tranched to death cause at some time in the next few years, we need to refinance.

Glad you mentioned Eudora Welty. I loved her story "Why I Love At The P.O."

Are you becoming intoxicated by the exuberance of your own verbosity, or do you really, really think it's going down badly? Surely there'll be some shabby fix so the gibbets don't have to be built.

P.S. Sorry about the Welty typo, I don't suppose she was quite THAT advanced.

Seems to me that the main deal for the vast majority of Tea Party folks is the insane spending by government, and the highly objectionable intrusiveness beyond all rationale. All the other stuff is media garbage stemming from its general love of government.

My house has been paid for since the day I moved in, back in 1993. My only problem in finding a buyer would be his credit rating. I know many, many people who also are unhurt by all this kerfuffle. Sure, the mess is serious, but it's not that large a percentage of all homes.

So let the failures fail. Somebody will come along and buy the parts and pieces at some true market value and resume doing business. Only an idiot would do what was done with GM and Chrysler, or bail out the investment banksters.

But, what the heck. Those of us who said the present administration would follow the ideas of Obama's mentors were shouted down. Okay, fine. Folks sowed the wind and now they're reaping the whirlwind. Nothing unexpected, really. And so all those ideas have finally led to the rise of the Tea Party folks.

Giggle-snort. Instead of sitting on the porch scowling and clutching, our Fearless Leaders have provided a worthwhile target at which to aim. Aim their votes, that is.

Won't solve the problems, of course, but a change might slow down the worsening thereof.

'Rat

"...I can easily see functional limitations on something like the old dictatorship of the proletariat - especially when said proletariat has been reduced in this country to some kind of a lumpen slobeteriat of methadrine-addled, tattooed psychopaths with axes to grind." -JHK

LOL! Yessir, might be a few problems making something minimally coherent outta that.
Seems what the authoritarians pine for; I'll wish 'em good luck with their endeavors.

I guess I'm just waiting for the next shoe to drop (in a purely speculative sense). I really can't conceive what the gummint is going to dream up next for the grand extend-and-pretend agenda.

Meanwhile, in practical sensibilities, we should probably make sure we have access to food and shelter for the near-term emergency of gummint retrenchment when the "options" run out, or the "solutions" are revealed to the G.P. to be tissues of lies and empty promises. (That's just practical preparedness, anyhoo; never a bad idea to have a "plan B".)

Look at the upside for a change.

In twenty years or so, or whenever the "white shoe boys" emerge from their black and white striped jumpers, America will dominate the world in chess.

Among the clever, chess is the preferred game in prison, not ping pong.

And so in the face of this maelstrom of malfeasance you wonder, can things possibly get more moronic? Well, yes they can actually.

Huffington Post has an article about government outsourcing collection of past due property taxes to banks.

So let's see. Totally fucked up mortgages, totally fucked up derivatives, totally fucked up foreclosure process courtesy of these totally fucked up banks run by mega rich gangsters that sucked billions out of taxpayers. And now these thugs are in the business of collecting property taxes?

So the banks pay the govt the past due homeowner taxes and then do what they must to collect the taxes (plus interest and fees of course) from the delinquent homeowner including foreclosure. Tax farming Roman style. How can this possibly go wrong?

Not bad enough? Get this, the Huffington Post article says that some banks are securitizing tax liens and selling them to investors. Mind fucking boggling. Haven't we just been there?

Can it get possibly get stupider? Yes it can. This is a real forehead slapper: there's no oversight, no regulation of the collection process.

Surrealist doesn't begin to describe it. Epochal slippage? You bet, right off the edge of the cliff.

I find the determination of the French populace to stop their government from screwing them to be rather refreshing compared to the craven acceptance of whatever ills our corporate/government leaders choose to hand down to us.
Refusing to pay a mortgage until the bank provides the original paper that proves ownership is simply another form of civil protest. That the banks find this simple obligiation beyond their ability should be provoking widespread and total civil unrest in this mass-media-fed nation of ours.
Yet this act of disobedience in the face of widespread criminal activity from above does not gain the social acceptance the French experience when they shut the country down by depriving it of its precious bodily fluid- fuel.
How sad it is our corporate leaders can act with impunity while the sons and daughters of the Revolution over here worry more about property values than the total destruction of the Bill of Rights.
It may be that Kunstler is wrong, but I suspect he is correct: we will take whatever our corporate leaders hand down to us lest we are forced to take a stand in support of the abstract theory of the Rule of Law.

I guess the coming Emergency will affect those who panic.

I have recently read how the banksta syndicate is buying up local tax collection entities creating LLCs to go after delinquent taxes and debts to the order of billions of dollars. They are creating these LLCs under cover.

The Kleptocrats who borrowed trillions from the Fed and us at near zero percent interest give nothing back to society and this president and Congress allow it to go on instead of deciding that these predators are just way too big and need to be broken up into benign pieces.

For many the coming inflation due to the likely induced QE2 will damage many people and families. The trade and currency war has begun. Bernanke is a predator and should have been fired two years ago instead of given the Time magazine honor of Man of the Year.

http://eye-on-washington.blogspot.com

For those that think selling (or buying) bank stocks is a good idea, or any stock for that matter, should first consider the bigger picture. Visiting the following site and taking in all the videos he's produced on the way the world REALLY works should disabuse everyone of any notion of success, in the markets or any where else. Despite Jim's well know aversion to conspiracy, simple facts devoid of spin and bias should compel everyone to reconsider where we've ended up since 1913.

http://csper.wordpress.com/

I remember a quote form Michael Rupert (before the drama got to him; glad to see his recovery) that goes something like this: “If you don't change the way money works you change nothing.” How right he is!!! The work ahead of us is daunting. For those who clearly see how and why we've come to this, the further destruction of our freedoms and the rule of law will be gut-wrenching. Necessary however as we need more people to see clearly. It is unfortunately true that we only learn through suffering... be great to see that change as well.

The French are showing some piss and vinegar at least.

The rule of law (along with its purple raiment, majesty) are already eroding in the tribalized identity games teabaggers and other halfwits play. Law will eventually become congruent with the validating insignia of pale skin, cultural grievance, and paramilitary codes. Real Americans know who to blame: anyone who thinks, acts, or looks differently from themselves.

I'm noticing a rather sharp uptick in the amount of rhetorical violence out there. Since I can't imagine Republicans (most of whom are overweight and overexcitable) having any coherent response to the current crisis, there will need to be a reckoning on another level. All the dirty, fucking hippies who have bedeviled America since Kerouac and Kesey may provide the fuel necessary for Walpurgisnacht. That means people like you. That means be careful what you wish for. That means all your survivalism, guns, and gold won't outwit outrage. W was right: this sucker is going down.

Don't trust the sky just 'cause it's blue.

"Where we stand is something like the doorway of a surrealist painting leading to a blue sky dotted with puffy little clouds - which is deceptively reassuring, until you realize that the solid earth is nowhere in sight. ...."

---JHK, you must be reading my mind! (although with a different twist)

Early this morning as I froze drinking my coffee on the terrace of my apartment I thought to myself: "Don't trust the sky just 'cause it's blue."
I was thinking along the lines of it may look nice, but it's too cold to be out here and 9/11 was a glorious day in the early morning, too. All seemed right in the world. What, on such a day could go wrong?

From a slide during a speech by William K. Black on white collar crime:
"Rating Agencies as Vectors. Any request for loan level tapes is totally unreasonable!!! Most investors don't have it and can't provide it....It is our responsibility to provide those credit estimates and our responsibility to devise some method for doing so"(S&P'01)

My usual Max Keiser perusal led me to a video of William K. Black discussing the immense CEO/Banking criminality that has taken place and how this differs from the Savings and Loans fraud where we put the banks into receiverships and about 1000 people went to jail. He also mentioned another debacle that occurred in 1991 that the taxpayers did not bail out. Truly a must, if you want to understand this from a white crime criminology standpoint. He's sees these players as wholly culpable in these endeavors and they know exactly what they are doing.

He also used an example of deceit and fraud that boggles the mind. Infant baby formula made in China was composed of talc and water to save money. Legitimate companies couldn't compete and went out of business. When you hear something like that, how do you even begin to grasp the enormity of where we find ourselves?--It's global and there are no standards of morality that can be applied to this system.

The other video I found interesting from a few days ago is the David Degraw about his book, “The Road Through 2012: Revolution or World War III”

http://daviddegraw.org/

______________One more thing:
http://www.counterpunch.org/hudson10112010.html

Why the U.S. has Launched a New Financial World War -- And How the the Rest of the World Will Fight Back By MICHAEL HUDSON

“Coming events cast their shadows forward.” – Goethe

Yes kids, it's called a Kleptocracy. That's why the banks hate the poor and throw them out of their homes with glee...it's called fraud, graft, deceit.

We shall wait patiently until my American brethren get their heads around the Fed and what it is they are exactly doing...until then...bon chance!

Here are two links of interest that are a lot like JHK's topic this week.

The Loss of Trust and the Great Unraveling To Come. http://www.oftwominds.com/blog.html

And this title is perhaps the best description of the near future.
The Coming Middle-Class Anarchy
http://gonzalolira.blogspot.com/2010/10/coming-middle-class-anarchy.html

Well said. I have been waiting for someone to state the truth of this matter. Thanks!

The really scary thing for me has been, for some time now, that there is no longer any such thing as "conservatism". If the source of our ills in society today were indeed too much welfare state liberalism, how could we ever find an alternative by reverting back to either the cynical hyper-capitalistic, globalist corporatism of the current Republican brand, or the loony self-deluding cracker reactionism of the Tea Party? We are officially rendered inert and immobile on all of the major issues - budget balancing, paying down national debt, dealing with illegal immigration, pursuing terrorists, and drawing down the American empire. The only hope is that somewhere out there perhaps a movement is under way , made up of realists, who see clearly and have a way of appealing to the majority.

Greetings,

My hat is off to the French protesters. Those guys understand that the one thing everyone will pay attention to is oil. Shut down a few refineries and you can bring the entire country to a standstill.

In my opinion, that is what will bring us down here as it will be very difficult to obtain oil or foreign made goods once the dollar becomes worthless.

Think of it this way: the dollar is nothing more than a promise of future labor. What else could it be given that is isn't backed by anything tangible. At some point in time, the people that make our TV's and computers and sell us oil will realize that there is not enough future labor left in the United States to make good on the money we already owe and they will cut off our line of credit. That is when the anarchy will begin.

The US would be forced to invade fuel supplying nations or watch its people starve in the streets. I strongly doubt other super powers would sit on their hands while that happened.

Get ready for WWIII

If you really want to know what is going to happen, go get a copy of Chinatown and watch it. This mess is so big that the government will just legalize it and grandfather it, and the banks can just go on their merry way...

Oopsie!
Fraud-closure, anyone?
Eeeeverybody into the pool!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31510813/#39676183

Bank of America in 1933, partnered with Marin County property owners offers best example to save the banks. This Depression era consortia financed the Golden Gate Bridge, now a transportation cash cow for the SF Bay Area.

Forward to Switzerland, finishing up their 35+ mile Alpine railway tunnel. When time passes, this project too will provide national income from tolls.

US Bankers must be brave, work with engineering firms and form consortia to build NAWAPA, needed to recharge key aquifers and power electric railways. Rail rehab to carry the load for fuel-pinched trucking must feature the new US50 rail line from Sacramento to Carson City, and rebuilt rail infrastructure in the US 95 Corridor.

See Suntrain Transportation Corporation web page for some ideas. See ASLRRA for companies with savvy rail upgrade talent. See postings in "theoildrum" by "tahoevalleylines" for more specifics. America has human talent and resources; in the ground and in the vault, to accomplish these engineering hedges against collapse. Bring on Peaking Oil...

Agreed. When there is mass resistance, the system does not work. But the numbers do not suggest there is mass resistance.

The U.S. loan delinquency rate (loans 30 or more days past due, but not in foreclosure) rose to 9.27 percent as of the end of September 2010. That’s a 0.6 percent increase over the previous month, but down 7.8 percent compared to last September 2009.

SOURCE: Lenders Processing Services (LPS)which is used by the 50 largest banks.

So the number of delinquencies is DECLINING compared to last year. Hardly an indication of "disobeying the Law en masse"

The rule of law is intact.

be prepared to spend the rest of your days picking stones out of your daily lentil ration before turning in on a bug-infested straw pallet next to the hog-pen, care of which is your new career.

Gotta love it, lets not forget the perpetrators of these crimes will be better off than you will be if this is what happens.

Time for Brother Jobe to pray and conjure up a bit of Halloween magic IMHO.

....anyone here that thinks the BankZ will be brought down by fraudclosuregate is sorely mistaken. even if everyone withdrew ALL deposits from the TBTF bankz they would NOT be in trouble.

why not? because they ARE the rulemakers. THEY CAN AND DO literally print money out of thin air at their whimsy. they can 'print' a trillion into their reserves with a phonecall to the FED.

the Real Actors that shake this country move through Proxies such as the Bankz. they long ago stopped 'working' for 'money' in the way that you do. the slaves (You) paying taxes is simply an amusing control event for their entertainment.

this is the Unlimited Powr They have due to their unchecked ability to literally print money any time they find it desirable.

the best you can do is stop paying taxes. or move to a country where there are (almost) no taxes. it's possible.

Know Thy Place, Serf.

DesertRat said: "My house has been paid for since the day I moved in, back in 1993. My only problem in finding a buyer would be his credit rating. I know many, many people who also are unhurt by all this kerfuffle. Sure, the mess is serious, but it's not that large a percentage of all homes.

So let the failures fail. Somebody will come along and buy the parts and pieces at some true market value and resume doing business."

Sorry DesertRat, but securitization goes back to the early 80's. Unless you paid cash and the prior owner had paid off the house prior to the early 80s...you're in the same boat with everyone else.

Watch this Dylan Ratigan MSNBC clip which confirms everything JHK wrote above:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31510813/#39676183

I thought he meant I was getting a promotion. Actually, I think I will just opt in for the anarchy route. I look good in a long black coat and Fedora. Plus I used to bowl long ago.

Let us not forget the fundamentals here. Banks exists as a means to extract rents on the currency. Banks lend principle. The rent/interest comes from the general stock of money and future loans. This at its root is a system that demands exponential growth in order to function. Exponential growth on a finite planet will sooner or later fail.

Captial will seek valorization either in surplus value or interest. If there is no source of surplus value flowing from manufacture, valorization will seek some mechanism to extract rents or speculate. History also shows us that where capital ventures, law follows.

There are two solutions to this dilema. One, return the power to issue away from those who would charge rent on currency to a sovereign power that issues on behalf of the public good. Allow banks to lend only what they have, i.e., no more fractional reserve lending.

Second, redirect our manufacturing base toward a twenty year plan to phase out oil as an energy source for transport, manufacture, and space heating. Those who sell their labor will have plenty of takers. Their wages will be paid in currency that exists without a rent burden. The government need only issue currency for projects that ease us away from hydrocarbon dependence and toward an economy based on solar income. The inflationary effects will be mitigated by the utility of the new infrastructure.

A third solution would be to abolish all corporations.

Something else to consider would be a MAXIMUM wage indexed to a minimum wage by, say, a factor of eight. Anything over that would be taxed at 100%. Rich people are a drain on the economy and a pox on the body politic.

I'm not holding my breath.

Gregg said: "Something else to consider would be a MAXIMUM wage indexed to a minimum wage by, say, a factor of eight. Anything over that would be taxed at 100%."

I have been advocating this since 1968. I am not holding my breath either.

Gregg said: "Rich people are a drain on the economy and a pox on the body politic."

Amen. The rich try to paint themselves as "job creators" (but they are mostly thieves who do no productive work. Truth is the rich get richer and unemployment goes up. Jobs are not created.

I am fairly certain, judging from the slap on thw wrist Mozillo got last week, that the banks will tell the government to ignore the lost paper work and the government will go along with it in a last ditch effort to maintain the staus quo.

Meanwhile on Wall Street, the Plunge Protection team will keep propping up the stock market until after the Republicans ride in in November and make sure the tax hikes on the wealthy are put on permanent hold.

But honestly, it is fun to watch the circus and I am surprised at how poorly they Brotherhood of Darkness is running the show.

Aimlow Joe was here.
http://www.aimlow.com

empirestatebuilding said: "it is fun to watch the circus"

Yes, it is fun. And it will be more so if Republicans get control of the House and bring government to a halt and then start to work on elimination all those "entitlement" programs like Social Security, Veterans Administration, Dept. of Education, etc. They want to stop big government as their circus act. Should be fun to watch.

....we don't need yur stinkin' government.

why do you think we're in this mess? because only one side did/does wrong by the country?

wake up. go write for katie kouric's 'blog' perhaps.

If you want to talk about confiscating the monumental pile of wealth stolen by corporate execs I'm all ears. I think that unreasonable compensation for the managerial class has been one of the major causes of present day troubles. Reasonable self interest is OK in my books but the unrestrained greed we've been seeing is not.

I think that, used reasonably by reasonable people, corporations can be a good thing. IMO they can be an effective legal mechanism by which different groups of people can contract with one another for goods or services. But what we've been seeing is not reasonable. For the sake of so called "shareholder value" (and let's not forget executive bonuses) the North American economy has been gutted through offshoring.

IMO, among people behaving reasonably, charging interest on loans and paying interest on deposits is reasonable and fair. I think that there should be no free lunches and that includes the use of money. I think that artificially suppressed interest rates for a lot of the past 20 years have been one of the major causes of the troubles we're seeing today.

Who's worried about a few $trillion fraud with Peak Oil and Climate Change just over the horizon.

Welles doesn't need my stinkin' government. Close down all the VA hospitals, fire all those government paid VA doctors, stop all those social security and disability checks, because Welles does not need my stinkin' government.

So the question remains, 'have you heard enough yet?' Have you flipped on the tele to watch the local bobblehead express their incredulity at what's going on yet again? Have we wiped out enough species yet? Have we fouled enough of the precious fresh water supply with our excrement and toxic run-off from the Cheez Doodle farm? And now this.

I used to have this vague idea that I wasn't as smart as the folks running the money options in the US. That I was just a lowly ecologist and gardener, happy to spend my days pondering fertility cycles and Liebig's Law. Now I've come to find out that the moneychangers are the most inept of all. Like so many others they cover their incompetence with fancy terms and theories. It seems I'm the sharp one after all.

Have you had enough yet? What more will it take? Does the honeybee have to go extinct, taking with it a sizable portion of our luxurious diet? How about the last of the salmon on the cold Pacific coast? Are there enough left to even feed to your stupid cat? When the tap goes dry in Phoenix, then LA, will you have anyone to blame but yourself?

HAVE YOU HAD ENOUGH YET??

We don't need anything else to go wrong. We didn't even need this. I can only shake my head at the morons who think "it's not time to grow our own food yet" because whether or not Jim is right, it's WAY FUCKING PAST TIME to do more than just grow your own food. It's time to capture your own water, recycle your own wastes and graywater, rebuild local community, and give these corporate thugs a double dose of the finger.

A revolution has begun in earnest. It's quiet, it's studied, and it's very effective. Permaculture, transition town initiatives, relocalization, radical reductions in consumption. We are busy undermining the power structure before it brings us all to our knees. And you're being left out.

It's way past time to be outraged! It's one thing to "get it," and a whole 'nuther to fight for your life. Stop crying, stop bitching, and stop with the incredulity already! Start finding your way down the energy mountain, through the twilight, before the only path available to you is the sheer cliff above the dark abyss. The models are out there, waiting for you to finally understand the gravity of what's at stake. Find the one that works for you, and get on with it.

Unless you're just too big a pussy.

I just finished The Witch Of Hebron and loved it even more than A World Made By Hand! Everyone should read their own copy this month, if they haven't already!
The idea of Peak Oil and Collapse appeals to me. This Witch ALWAYS felt like an uncomfortable imposter in a world of horrifying dissonance. The veils are finally lifting, is all.
I try to balance my perspective between recognizing the sinister conspiratorial possibilities and having faith in the default power of mindless clusterfucking. Hopefully, society's problems only stem from ignorant greed.
Unless humans broaden their collective perspective beyond polarizing Xenophobia and opportunistic exploitation, we're due for a major collapse of civilization, if not planetary cleansing. Maybe it's the cockroaches turn to enter the evolutionary race against destructive technologies, decode The Messages of The Pulsars and win Galctic citizenship for Planet Earth.

I suspect the banking powers that be will just snap their fingers and all will be well again, foreclosures will return and we will again be rocketing towards some unknowable future where the rich get richer and the rest of use are left fighting over the scraps.

This week's title is interesting. If we have a surrealist vista (surrealism was a 20th century movement), then it may be a good thing.

But the essay this week doesn't really fit with what surrealism was about. Surrealism adopted a positive conception of art, based on the exploration of language and the Freudian theory of the unconscious.

Unless the word "surrealist" is meant to indicate a situation that is based on an alternate reality. Surrealism was seen as a means of joining dream and fantasy to everyday reality to form an absolute reality, a surreality. (Surrealism developed in reaction against the "rationalism" that had led to World War I.)

The rationalists are still firmly in charge, and we have not yet created a surrealist vista. Everything that is happening is explainable without resorting to fantasy.

And the proper response to our present situation is to demilitarize in our war against nature, to adopt permaculture as a way of life, to function more in rhythm with nature, instead of looking rationally at how much nature can be exploited (blindly ignoring unforeseen consequences).

In fact, we need a little more surrealism and a little less rationalization. I hinted at this in a past post on sacred permaculture.

http://www.sacredearthinstitute.org/permaculture.html

Life is sacred!

What many Tea Partiers and similarly minded political partisans fail to realize about government, and the US government in particular, is that it floats the economy and our entire society in general. Without a strong, centralized government, America would not be where it is today.

Examples...

1) The epic bailout of the financial industry. The government pumped almost one trillion dollars into the private banking system, without which it would have collapsed, certainly causing another Great Depression, not to mention the destruction of many financial institutions.

2) The bailout of GM and other auto companies, saving them from bankruptcy and dissolution, which would have occurred under a pure free market system. This would have been horrible, throwing thousands of people out of work, not to mention destroying a pillar of the US economy (cars and their production).

3) The 500 billion+ bailout of the states, which included numerous infrastructure projects, without which the states would be completely bankrupt with no money to do anything.

4) The approximately trillion dollar per year military, which among other things, secures areas of resources for the immense yearly consumption of each US citizen and makes the world safe for international corporations that employee many Americans.

5) The huge number of high-paying jobs provided by government agencies, without which the middle class in America would be basically dead.

6) The regulation and provision of complex inter-state systems, such as the communications network, the interstate highway system, the electrical grid, etc.

7) The huge and immensely costly social safety net, without which many more Americans would be homeless, poor, and destitute.

8) Systems such as Medicaid and Medicare which provide health care, because our privately organized health care system is too expensive for most people.

9) The billions of dollars funneled into research and development projects in the academic and private sector, which these institutions would not undertake on their own, preserving some measure of technical and economic competitiveness and innovation.

I could go on here, but I think I've made my point. The US government is not rogue or evil like some kind of Communist dictatorship. In fact, without the US government's constant intervention and stewardship, America would be a far worse place to live, with a much lower standard of living, etc. I don't know how someone can look around at what the government actually does in society and call it evil or wrong. Without it, we'd be even more screwed.

Sure there is fraud and waste in the US government, like any big organization, but at what level? Most of the really big financial problems it faces (e.g. "the deficit") are from entitlements, which people demand access to. The main problem in the US is that the Republicans, especially under Bush II, completely gutted the tax base by extending undeserved tax cuts to the wealthy and very wealthy. This had the effect of ballooning government deficits, which Clinton had gotten under control by the time he left office. His predecessor felt no such obligation, and we are reaping the consequences.

I don't buy the rhetoric of people like Ron Paul, about abolishing the Federal Reserve. I want to ask him how much he enjoys his free, government-provided health care package, among other perks from his government paid position.

And another thing, if you hate government so much, what are you doing running for public office? Is this not like a grade school teacher claiming they hate children? If the private sector is so great, then why don't you stay there?

Now try and see if you can reply to this post without calling me names like "Bleeding Heart Liberal" or "Communist," because I am neither.

I am beginning to think that the only way out of the giant clusterfuck that is bearing down on us from every direction is the establishment of martial law. Democracy is utterly useless when the populace can't agree on proper codes of conduct and the least-intelligent among us hold the balance of power [i.e. The Tea Party]. Now that the rule of law has been discredited and the only institution capable of enforcing any moral and legal authority is the military, why not dissolve the executive, judicial and legislative branches and have all their functions devolve to a military dictatorship where the chain of command, protocol and tradition are enforced by lethal force?

And BTW I am by no means against private enterprise. It does some things superbly well, such as providing manufactured products. You probably don't want a government made car. That's why even the military outsources their production to private companies. Competition is good in this realm. The private sector also does fine with providing simple services of limited time duration (haircut, package delivery, auto repair, etc.).

However, the private sector fails dismally and/or is inappropriate in most areas that require long term outcomes, e.g. the American private health care system, which is a complete mess. It also often falls down when long term cooperation is required among different entities that use the same shared infrastructure (e.g. inter-state roads). Private enterprise is also inapplicable (or should be) when there is no profit motive (or shouldn't be), hence why we have free police and fire fighting service.

Without the government, we would be back in the days of wage slaves working for peanuts (no minimum wage), with no safety net (no unemployment insurance, no food stamps, etc.), and fraught with danger (no government safety regulations).

The good old days really weren't. Government can and does make things better, all the time. Like any big system or organization, it is rife with inefficiencies, fraud, and top-heavy bureaucracy, but I can't fathom this "throw the baby out with the bathwater" attitude that some Americans seem to be taking lately, especially since we are set to reelect a bunch of Republicans, who have proven their incompetence again and again. For Pete's sake, the last president to attain a balanced budget was a DEMOCRAT, and Republicans are supposedly the party of fiscal prudence? What a laugh. I thought we learned our lesson(s), but I guess not.

George,

Democracy is a messy business and in the words of Winston Churchill (whose words I will now butcher): Democracy is a bad system. It is just that all the other ones are so much worse.

And also, we already live in a police state (somewhat). American has the largest number of people in prison, both per capita and and in raw numbers. The police have been militarized, both in equipment and in mentality. The martial control of the populace seems to be a done deal.

And personally, I don't see the Tea Partiers being a threat to societal order. They are allowed to express their political opinions, and they should do so. It is when people stop talking and pickup their weapons that I worry. The trend of angry disgruntled males going Rambo at their workplace/schools/etc. is particularly disconcerting to me.

But I see no problem with a bunch of Tea Party people getting together and holding up signs, talking about how they hate Obama, etc. I just think they're flat out wrong in many of the political assertions they make and I will voice my contrary opinion when I get a chance, on the internet, in person, and at the ballot box. But you're allowed to be wrong. That's part of democracy and it is part of having free speech.

Another excellent post, Gregg.

I like all 3 solutions. All three should be applied concurrently, with a 4th solution. The 4th solution needs to deal with the actual physical persons that comprise the clique that controls the world's capital/resources. Many of them hide behind legal instruments and abstractions, but with a proper investigation they can be tracked down, identified, and outed publicly.

Very well said, Turkle.

You forgot to mention all those government employees employed by the government in the Border Patrol. Those government employees are arresting hundreds of thousands of immigrants each year.

When one of the neocon/Libertarian/Republican/Conservative/Tea Baggers starts in on how we need to cut spending, I'm thinking we should start with cutting out the border patrol.


"..said proletariat has been reduced in this country to some kind of a lumpen slobeteriat of methadrine-addled, tattooed psychopaths with axes to grind.."

LAWL LAWL LAWL (as my cynical progeny might type)..

Gad - the tea-baggers' fear of 'socialism' may entail (gasp!) terror of a trend toward Canuckistanism - horror of horrors!

Imagine: medical insurance leashed and controlled, instead of a free-for-all feeding frenzy of profiteering, prisons run by government, realistic energy pricing, somewhat safe city streets.. the horror, the horror..

All this talk about Permaculture has me squirming in my seat.

Bill Mollison's Permaculture sits on my desk. I have travelled and seen Permaculture firsthand. I have taken the course and sat in on the campfire sing-along.

Permaculture, it seems to me, as a niche business in the US, is mainly the business of selling courses and consulting. While this is fabulous, it does not supplant agriculture's function of feeding mass numbers of people.

The problem with Permaculture as an agriculture alternative is that, to my knowledge, there are no profitable, competitive, or surplus-producing Permaculture farms- anywhere.

I read this textbook-sized book by Bill Mollison and I see little chance that the layperson is going to achieve the objectives therein. It it simply too complex for the average person.

In other words the layperson has about as much chance in performing Permaculture successfully as a layperson has in performing brain surgery. And a large chance of performing it poorly.

Making people feel good is a great business model but, since it does not feed mass populations, it is no alternative at all.

Mollison worked out a great system for people who live in marginal areas like the outlands of Australia, in homesteads, to eke out a subsistence under the persistent threat of drought. I suppose that he worked out an even better system of making money off the idea. It is a brand, a buzzword, and a suite of techniques for understanding local energy flows. But there is no proven track record of producing food surpluses.

If cities want to become self-sufficient in food, they can do better than planting the median strips with perennial vegetables and fruit trees. They can start off supplying one hundred percent of their own food production needs with vertically integrated hydroponics, genetic engineering, and alternative protein sources from algae and fungi.

The bottom line, as I see it, is that no one is going to accept the regression to dirt farmer, no matter how gloriously advertised its benefits. First-world people want prestigious occupations with little physical labor. Farming is neither prestigious nor easy.

With farming (any kind of work involving dirt and/or plants or animals) being low-paid, low-prestige labor, I don't think we'll see anyone jumping on the bandwagon. Women aren't going to do it because it's physical. Men won't do it because there is no prestige or money in it to attract a woman.

The young might be fooled for a little while with some idealistic drumming and chanting, but eventually these digital kids are not going to accept the analog existence. There is no future in growing food, and has not been for a hundred years or more. It is an activity for marginal freaks, convicts, and immigrants.

Finally, Permaculture will fail in the urban environment simply because it will never produce the amount of food that the urbanizing population consumes.

Permaculture is simply English gardening on steroids. It is rearranging the landscape for human habitat, food, and fiber.

My personal conviction is that humanity must now retreat back within its own ecological footprint, and begin relinquishing undeveloped and agrarian areas to the wild. The only way modern urban centers are going to feed everyone, while releasing land back to nature, is if the urban centers where people live produce their own food.

My problem with Permaculture is that it continues a traditional pattern of agricultural land use. Its just a new variation on the general theme of converting wildness to cultivation. I do believe in the possibility of humans influencing energy flows to create local traps to escape entropy. I don't think that most people have the art or science to do it. And starting with land that could quickly and easily slip back to wildness is a waste of that land.

I believe the trend must be converting cultivation to wildness, and bringing production into urban centers. Permaculture has its place within those bounds. As a philosophic hobby.

I just can't see turning the valuelessness of a lawn into some sort of victory garden on steroids. This seems discouragingly like last man standing behavior. For the most part, all these major problems coalesce into one big lifeboat we're all in. Everything else seems to be luck, because it is luck. Unlike the Australian outback, interdependence is now mandatory. For all its admirable focus on efficiency, its techniques don't have the magnitude of payback that our army of stomachs requires.

By all means tear up your grass and plant veggies and raise chickens. Every little bit counts. From my perspective it is a better aesthetic use of waste land. But it will provide meager shelter from the four horsemen of eco-apocalypse bearing down on us. Mollison had the luxury of a back up plan in case of the mega-drought- move to Adelaide and get a real friggin' job.

Permaculture is a brilliantly laid out schematic of the past. Mollison and Fukuoka will make great future required reading and discussion fodder for the genetically engineered 4th grade grad students of 2030. But they'll be sustained by genetically engineered hydroponics that don't need soil. Their tissues will be nourished by fungal and algal protein, probably extruded from a tube and provided in an array of Lucky Charms shapes. And they will love it as they rocket toward careers in growth industries like nanotech and molecular medicine.

Boomers are the likely recipient of all this Medicare-state life-extension technology. They will be overjoyed, no doubt, that there was no social or economic incentive for those children to pick up hoes and shovels and become dirt farmers- worthless occupations with no future.

I imagine some Boomers in these golden years to not mind the passage from sentience to Perma-compost but they will be singing a different tune watching their peers bounce around on sleek new prostheses and growing their skin, teeth, and hair back with internal nanotherapeutics.

Permaculturists of the future, living with unexpected increases in lifespan and under some sort of climate-sheltering bio-dome, are going to think back on how simple they thought the world was. And the new sprouts, the test-tube fetuses with law degrees, will need the sort of practical wisdom only a 140-year old can provide.

So if Permaculture gets those geezers out in the sun and doing some physical labor, I'm all for it. I'm just not going to drink that Kool-Aid.

When one of the neocon/Libertarian/Republican/Conservative/Tea Baggers starts in on how we need to cut spending, I'm thinking we should start with cutting out the border patrol.
==

Why not start with asoka's welfare stipend?

"The problem with Permaculture as an agriculture alternative is that, to my knowledge, there are no profitable, competitive, or surplus-producing Permaculture farms- anywhere."

Long-standing discussion in the movement. To me, it's comparing apples to oranges. The reason permaculture works is because it doesn't try to replace big agriculture. Agriculture is the problem. It's based on expansion of markets, expansion of technology. Expansion of humans. None of which are part of a sustainable future. I'd like to think that a hefty adoption of permaculture could spare us. If there's something that can, I believe this is it. But the reality is that there are too many mouths to feed without cheap petroleum. Period. But continuing on that path isn't the answer either, because it would only produce more mouths to feed. See where the cipher begins to break down?

Permaculture isn't meant to do what agriculture did. If it did, it wouldn't be a solution to the problems created by agriculture.

BS of A News Service
November 3, 2010
Today President Obama announced that he has mandated a solution to the Robo-signer glitch that has been holding up the process of transferring mortgages from deadbeat buyers to the rightful owners. Starting on January 1, 2011 the only verification of title to real estate that will be recognized will be the modern and highly efficient computerized documentation system MERS. It will replace the existing archaic and inaccurate recording system which required paper documents susceptible to fire and rodent damage be stored at county courthouses. All county court recorders are instructed to immediately mail all title documents in their possession to MERS or its agent for incorporation into the updated data base.

Due to the diligent budget-balancing efforts of the Obama administration MERS has only four current employees, so the administration has subcontracted the data transfer process to the highly respected firm of Goldman & Sacks. County recorders are instructed to endorse all mortgage documents in their possession in favor of Goldman Sacks in order to facilitate their incorporation into the national data bank.

As a footnote, President Obama announced that an agreement has been reached to preserve the two party political system. Intense top level negotiations have led to a merger of the remaining elements of Mr. Obama’s political party (formerly known as The Party Of Hope) with the remnants of the old Republican Party with which it shares a total commitment to the sanctity of executive bonuses and maintaining the illusion of a free market. The issue which proved so intractable was one of principle: 50% of the negotiators insisted that the new party be called the Republicrats, while the other half held firm to the traditions embodied in the Demorepugnant name. The issue was finally resolved by agreeing to call the merged organization the Do Nothing Party in recognition that the public already knew it by that name.

Meanwhile the new majority party (formerly known as the Tea Party) is having pitched battles of it’s own over their leader Barbie’s insistence that the party change its name to the Grizzly Party. But that’s next week’s story folks!

Many conservatives (so-called) these days seem to want to make a joke out of everything.

Unemployment is at 10% and much greater in certain demographics and job sectors (about 17% in the construction industry). Government welfare is the only life line that some people have between them and being homeless and destitute. Just because you have never had to use it (I presume), doesn't mean you won't need it in the future. It is a matter of circumstance, which can change very quickly. Many people in the middle class have discovered this in the last couple years. There is nothing shameful or funny about using the social safety net. It is a matter of survival for many, e.g. whether or not they can eat and not live on the street.

Conservatives need to think of other people sometimes. Just because you don't use some particular service or feature of the government doesn't make it wrong or unneeded. Other people are not going to go away and disappear because you don't like the social programs they use. Grow up.

And BTW I'm pretty sure asoka is not on welfare but there would be nothing shameful or wrong about it if he was.

BustinJ:

When I first read Mollison book back in the early 80's, as interesting and novel as it appears on the surface, it was little more than systematizing what peasant cultures have been doing for eons. I grew up in an immigrant Italian community in Baltimore, MC in the 60s. I still have many found memories of my peasant grandparent's intensively cultivated, very small urban space. Composting, rain-water collection, root cellars, chickens and a very wide variety root crops, vegi and fruit, all supplemented with wild forages, fish and game. Nothing was wasted, not even the butts from Pall Malls, they were use as a pesticide in the garden.

All this was a way of life for my grandparents and many of neighbors, no one needed fancy names, big books or courses to learn what was largely innate and common sense to anyone who has lived within the land and for who money culture was never more than a few dollars a day from what jobs could be had. They were certainly poor, but the meals and the joy at the dinner table were anything but.

Permaculture is little more than a manifestation of white skin privilege.


Go directly to jail, do not pass go, do not collect $200.00 dollars.

"Finally, Permaculture will fail in the urban environment simply because it will never produce the amount of food that the urbanizing population consumes."

See Havana, Cuba post Soviet collapse for an immediate debunking of this claim.

Oh, and by the way, they now refer to those years as their "special period." Sounds terrible, doesn't it?

Yes, it takes a mighty talent to make apocalypse amusing, but to sum up today's epistle, "We are screwed!"

Rather than wallow in despair or thrash around in anger, I have been working on a Plan B to form a cooperative mutual aid system to quickly recoup our losses and enable us to move to safer places.

If you are thinking along the same lines, visit me at http://tinyurl.com/23xg848

Some parts of the globe will do better than others during this brewing crisis. Now is the time to internationalize your income while things are still fairly stable. Interested?

In the next contract that my boss asks me to draft I'm going to insert the following dispute resolution clause:

"In the event of a dispute arising out of the Parties performance of this Contract, the Parties shall endeavor to resolve such dispute through friendly negotiation. If the Parties cannot resolve such dispute amicably, then the Parties shall resolve the dispute by means of PAPER-SCISSORS-STONE, which outcome shall be binding upon the Parties."

"My personal conviction is that humanity must now retreat back within its own ecological footprint,"

One of the prime movers of permaculture.

"and begin relinquishing undeveloped and agrarian areas to the wild."

Ditto.

"The only way modern urban centers are going to feed everyone, while releasing land back to nature, is if the urban centers where people live produce their own food."

Permaculture.

"My problem with Permaculture is that it continues a traditional pattern of agricultural land use."

Permaculture is probably the first and only actual paradigm shift away from the agrarian way. It's horticulture. Completely different on every account.

"Its just a new variation on the general theme of converting wildness to cultivation"

It's a system of land and cultural repair. What you're talking about is agriculture...again.

"I do believe in the possibility of humans influencing energy flows to create local traps to escape entropy. I don't think that most people have the art or science to do it."

I'm glad humanity's not relying on you.

"I believe the trend must be converting cultivation to wildness, and bringing production into urban centers. Permaculture has its place within those bounds."

Permaculture IS those bounds.

"I just can't see turning the valuelessness of a lawn into some sort of victory garden on steroids. This seems discouragingly like last man standing behavior."

You have a very warped sense of what permaculture is and is not. There are 3 ethics driving permaculture, and the second is "Care of People." Not "bunk up solo with your taters and shotgun." Mad Max is a lot more like Heinberg's "last man standing" scenario.

"Unlike the Australian outback, interdependence is now mandatory"

Is this getting old yet? Once again interdependence is part and parcel of permaculture.

"For all its admirable focus on efficiency, its techniques don't have the magnitude of payback that our army of stomachs requires."

This may be the closest thing to truth in your post. Except that permaculture's focus is on interconnection, not efficiency. Hell bent on efficiency is what got us here. Oh, and I don't expect the whole army of stomachs to be around with permaculture, and certainly not without it.

"Permaculture is a brilliantly laid out schematic of the past."

Except that is a linking science, drawing together all of humanity's best ideas, regardless of era.

I won't bother quoting the rest of your inane drivel. You haven't the first clue about permaculture or its power, and you've made that abundantly clear in this post. Likewise, you have roughly zero grasp of the Laws of Nature and physics. Oil made us, not the other way around. Or, to quote Wagelaborer, economy is a subset of the environment, not the other way around. Energy gets increasingly expensive from here on, friend, and Mother Nature is very clear about how this will go. Read it again, or not, I don't care, but don't try to represent knowledge about something you do not know. You're doing the world a huge disservice.

Get a grip, man.

Government welfare is the only life line that some people have between them and being homeless and destitute.
==

You are wrong.

Government welfare is the lifeline that keeps the smiling thieving fascists in power. Without these government payouts (bribes really), people would've long ago rebelled against the stupidity that is the fascist/corporate state, and would've stopped contributing tax payments on a national debt that overwhelmingly goes to support the corporations.

Erik, I built the house myself on land I'd owned since 1984--for which I'd paid cash. Never a bank involved in any of it...

The 3 ethics of permaculture:

1) Care for the Earth

2) Care for People

3) Reinvest the surplus created by the first two (and originally included "set limits to growth and reproduction" but apparently that was too controversial)

The 12 principles of permaculture, according to David Holmgren, the co-originator:

1) Observe and interact

2) Catch and store energy

3) Obtain a yield

4) Apply self-regulation and accept feedback

5) Use and value renewable resources and services

6) Produce no waste

7) Design from patterns to details

8) Integrate rather than segregate

9) Use small and slow solutions

10)Use and value diversity

11)Use edges and value the marginal

12)Creatively use and respond to change

Not exactly your typical agricultural directives.

Heya, Tripp,
Good to see you hands-up and growlin'. ;o)
Doing NOTHING in these times is no longer an option.
You might not enjoy seeing yourself as a "warrior of innovation", but it might be that's thrust upon you. I approve, anyway; and I would encourage those who have not done so before to visit your blog and read your insightful commentaries. (Most valuable, IMHO.)

...And what's up with the denigration of hand/hard labor? I've done a lifetime of it and I don't see it as something I have to be ashamed of, nor has it made me [particularly] stupid (or more stupid than I already was). S'pose that might be too much indoctrination? "Kick back in the lounger with a beer and some cheezy-puffs, we'll take care of the rest..." (translation: Doing anything for yourself brands you a loser/loner and a fool.)

Guess we've got to hearken back to this week's parable of the pig-herding lentil-eater. ;o)

asoka, I'm shocked by your using the 2,000,000 imprisoned Americans as proof that we have rule of law.

Those are overwhelmingly poor people, put in prison for smoking dope, or drinking and fighting.

The rich get away with murder, literally, breaking national and international laws with impunity.

http://wagelaborer.blogspot.com/2010/01/collapse-of-facade.html

I was listening to NPR today, and they were droning on about how Obama just HAD to appeal the overthrowing of the Don't Ask, Don't Tell rule, because Obama all about the law and such.

Yeah, that's why Bush and Cheney have gotten off scot-free for their breaking of US and international law.

That's why Obama voted to make the overthrowing of the FISA law RETROACTIVE, which is illegal in itself!!, thereby making the companies which broke the law retroactively law-abiding.

Unlike the guy in Guantanamo, cited for breaking a law which they passed two years after he was locked up!

Dude - they're out of control, and you of all people should know it.

Oh, yeah, and don't forget that Obama promised to filibuster that bill, and instead, voted for it.

yes Tripp - I have had enough .
I am just like a rabbit in the head lights though.

I have no means to escape the pit trap. I may not have anywhere to live if my rolling 3 month contract isn't renewed. And that barely lets us keep the lights on.

Sometimes I think most people will just need a grenade the family can stand around if it gets too bad.

"Heya, Tripp,
Good to see you hands-up and growlin'."

Ha! I feel a bit like a bear today. Maybe it's a product of my infant son waking up every hour on the hour last night, and a wholesale lack of REM. But I still hosted a work party today (a little community building interdependence;), got some salvaged lumber cleaned up and ready for building a chicken coop and goat shed, and built and installed 3 gates for my rotational livestock system. Briggs, my dual-purpose goat, is not happy about being isolated from the chicken feed!

Hey man, I'm with you on the manual labor issue. I've been an air-conditioned cubicle jockey before, with a fat paycheck and company Tahoe to boot, and I'd take my poor, labor-intensive life today over that every day of the week and twice on Sunday! I already have a wife for keeps, so attracting a honey with my dirty fingernails and sunburned neck is a total non-issue. She even likes my wide-brimmed straw hat and graying goatie!

Entitlement works in lots of ways, and these guys obviously prefer someone to do their dirty work for them. Which is understandable. Being avant garde in a previously unpopular direction requires a manly sack, as you well know. Lucky Charms of extruded algal protein grown in vertical hydroponic systems? And that's the move back toward a smaller ecological footprint? Not in this reality.

Thanks for the props on my blog, brotha!
(www.smallbatchgarden.blogspot.com)
Tripp

Wage said: "Dude - they're out of control, and you of all people should know it."

The "authorities" are in control... and they are controlling 2,000,000 people in the prison system and keep them there because the "rule of law" has not broken down.

Asoka, maybe if you click your heels together and wish upon a star it will come true.

Speaking of which I had to Google (see I DO learn from you Asoka) that term "Go-Go Ultra X Electric Travel Scooter" - just to see if it was real. And it is! I've seen them in the Walmart parking lot. Go figure. Personally I am jonesing for the Flyscooter Scout: http://www.flyscooters.com/scooters/scout

110 ccs of pure retro fun. The gubmint will have to pry it out of my cold dead hands! Not that I think they give a damn whether I have one or not.

lsjogren said,
"Government dictates interest rates, hence the yield curve, hence how much money banks can make on interest. Government dictates the amount of money banks are allowed to create out of thin air as a multiple of their reserves."

No it doesn't. The Fed decides interest rates and the quantity of money. The Fed is NOT the government in any way shape or form - it is a group of PRIVATE banks. I wish people would stop thinking that the Fed is the government - it is NOT.
See this link for a bit of historical perspective:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D22TlYA8F2E&feature=channel
Or read some Ellen Brown. Gregg's got it 100% correct - get rid of fractional reserve lending outright. That's partly what the video is about. The rest of it is a fascinating history of the conflicts in our American history over who does control the money supply. Highly recommend it.

DesertRat and erikSF99, I thank God every day because I don't have a mortgage. I guess we must be extraordinarily fortunate because we paid cash, the previous owners owed outright, and built the place themselves in the 1960's.

Lynn, has vegetarianism clouded your highly-evolved human brain? The problem is NOT "eating meat." The problem is industrialized factory farming, BOTH vegetables and meats. Human beings evolved eating meat and animal fat. It is good for us, it is why we developed our human intelligence, and it is especially good for the soil, IF the animals are raised properly.
Some referential reading for you:
http://www.beyondveg.com/nicholson-w/hb/hb-interview1a.shtml
http://www.westonaprice.org/abcs-of-nutrition/267-myths-of-vegetarianism.html

Puzzler, that was a bit distracting, I have to say.

BustinJ, you are entirely missing the point. Gardening and farming ARE unfortunately about saving ourselves in the face of the collapse, of cities, of infrastructure, of money, of other people. Whether people "accept the regression to dirt farmer" or not is irrelevant. The point is that their only other choice WILL be to starve. I don't personally worry about my garden being properly "permaculture" because I believe in learning by doing, but hey if a bunch of guys want to study theory and write books and sell seminars, there are a lot of people out there who could use the knowledge.
And women farm all the goddamned time, you sexist idiot.

TrippTicket, it's frustrating isn't it :)

Heather, speaking of rampant sexism, WMBH and Witch of Hebron represent some of the worst drivel I have ever encountered in my life. His publisher should be taken outside and beaten.

I really feel for you. All this talk about lost mortgages and free rides makes me wonder why I bit the bullet and bought a $3000 wreck of a house in the 'hood with the last of my money! But my garden is coming along nicely - the greens, lettuce, broccoli, cabbage, kale, chard, turnips, and spinach are doing their thing; my chickens are getting close to laying; I've got a freezer full of pork and poultry; and I'm studying up on graywater systems and humanure as fast as I can.

If you can make it here you can camp in my back garden and help me get this thing moving for real. I'd love to have another PDC holder to contribute to system resilience. I've even got a tent and air mattress you could use.

Course, for the price of moving to the States, you could probably buy 10 times the land I have for yourself there...still...if things got real desperate...

On the meat issue, vegetarians drive me nuts, especially the self-righteous types. But Lynn has a point for most meat. It does take more energy to produce most meat, even if you just consider that animals utilize secondary sunlight instead of being the primary harvesters like plants. The higher up the food chain you are, the more embodied energy is represented in your tissues, and each level is logarithmic too. Humans are WAAAY up there, which is why we are having this discussion in the first place.

BUT, and I want to make that BUT bigger but I don't know how (short of bacon and butter). BUT, grass-fed beef is not only supremely adapted for production on this continent, but if managed correctly, a net sequestration of atmospheric carbon can be realized via this husbandry, with a juicy ribeye as nothing more than a bonus gift. Methane comes from cows raised on unnatural feedlot diets. Dark earth and nutritious beef comes from appropriately grass fed cows.

Win-win in my opinion.

Hitler reacts to the Foreclosure Fraud crisis:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kPCYcBm-C8

So Asoka, you think Social Security should be abolished. Just exactly how are all the old folks who are living on it supposed to keep food on their tables and a roof over their head if there is no Social Security (which they paid into all their lives, by the way). Are you one of those people who believe that if somebody can't pay for it themselves they shouldn't have it? Like food, medical care, shelter, etc? What about people who never earn enough money to save a bundle for retirement? Are they just supposed to go off somewhere and die? I really would like to hear how you think a lot of people would survive if Social Security were abolished. And Medicare - I suppose you think that anyone who can't pay for a healthcare plan should just die??

And when you eat a grass-fed cow only one animal dies. An animal that depends on our eating it for its success as a species actually! Nothing like harvesting a field of soybeans, killing countless bunnies, mice, moles, voles, ground birds, and insects. Not to mention displacing so many others with your tilled soybean monoculture.

This is a moral superiority built on a foundation of ignorance.

Thank you, thank you Turkle. I get so incensed when I hear these tea party morons blabbing about how we should just get rid of the gubbmint. They would be up shit creek without all the services that are provided by government, but they are too dumb to see that. I'll bet a lot of them are even living on Social Security at the same time that they are screaming for it to be abolished. Too weird.

The big banks' "moratoria" could be renamed "moritoria".

As in, "We who are about to die..."

networker said: "Speaking of which I had to Google (see I DO learn from you Asoka) that term "Go-Go Ultra X Electric Travel Scooter" - just to see if it was real. And it is!"

Networker, I have no idea what you are talking about. I have no idea what an Ultra-X Electric Travel Scooter is, nor have I mentioned one in any of my posts. Are you OK? Try clicking your heels together and maybe you will start making some sense.

You seem to think that genetic engineering, fossil fuels, plastics and all the other acoutrements of high-tech intensive gardening/farming will always be with us. You even think we will live under climate-controlled domes! You are definitely not seeing the same future that I am. When the fossil fuels are too expensive to product anymore, none of that stuff is going to be readily available. But Permaculture will still work because it doesn't require any of that stuff. It might not always be "profitable, competitive or surplus-producing" (which are the characteristics of industrial agriculture) but it will feed the people who do the work when industrial agriculture no longer exists. The days of 1% of the population doing the work that feeds the other 99% will be over and everybody will have to get their hands dirty of they want to eat.

J K handed me my signed copy at the Seattle bookstore and said 'enjoy'. I did and am happy to hear from someone else who likes the W of H as much as I. Too bad I read fast. :(

The end of your post where you mention cockroaches decoding the secrets of the pulsars and thus earning galactic citizenship for earth and all their kind is something I completely understand.

I've been thinking of a plot for a SI-FI book I'll never write where spider-like or cockroach-like creatures from outer space invade earth, take over all humanity by eating away our brains keeping our bodies for themselves to inhabit and operate.

My book would happen in the darkest hour of the long emergency but when the takeover happens in the long emergency is irrelevant.

Fast forward 300 years to the Galactic Census.

Humans are living in a verdant rich world of magnificent sustainable cities in harmony with their environment. All the dreams of all the lofty Utopians of times past have been realized.
The earth is a green gem of human culture and achievement, peace and harmony rule the earth.

The interstellar census probe knowing perfection when it sees it never gets close enough to observe that humans no longer have brains, not a one. Alien cockroaches eat away the brains of their human hosts that each will inhabit for life before the human birth.

The cockroaches stop the long emergency dead in its tracks when they take over.

Heather, you ask if society's problems only stem from ignorant greed.

Human greed stops when the cockroaches take over.

Asoka, read the sentence again. See the part where I said "I had to Google" there? The parenthesis (see I DO learn from you Asoka) refers to that. English 101. That's what I learned from you. Googling everything. Then I went on to talk about scooters :)

Helen, re-read my post. I never said Social Security should be eliminated. I said if Republicans win control of the house the Republicans try to eliminate Social Security (or, as they say "privatize it").

Hi Tripp,

Thanks for the offer, but I would have to drag my brood along hehe. A bunch of illegals flying in this time :)

My sister in Law is from LA, her Mum is out at the moment and we were talking about our favorite bloggers, JHK came up lol.

Land here is really expensive, and crap. The Ponzi scheme hasn't crashed yet. If I can keep my job, and land prices plummet, then I have a chance to get back in the game. I really miss having chooks.

They can be like houdini though, seem to escape all the time and want to go in the house.

I really enjoyed getting my PDC, it's frustrating renting a flat where I can't use it. The flat I rent just got sold for $400k - madness.....so we will be moving again, the 6th time in 3 years. Hard to put down roots.

Tripp said: "a juicy ribeye as nothing more than a bonus gift. Methane comes from cows raised on unnatural feedlot diets. Dark earth and nutritious beef comes from appropriately grass fed cows. Win-win in my opinion."

Tripp, your specie-ism is just as offensive to me as the racism, sexism, homophobia, and xenophobia expressed regularly on this site.

Win-win? The cow is dead, dude? If the animal killed and ate you, and then shit you out to enrich the soil, would you consider that a "win-win"?

Get a clue, Tripp. Life is sacred. Stop rationalizing the murder of animals.

Doesn't make a bit of difference whether it is mass murder from factory farming or staring Daisy in the eye while you slit her throat. Both are murder, pure and simple.

Asoka, last time you jerked off, did you "save" the little critters? I mean, it's murder if you didn't.

Networker, I have never advocated using Google. If you have followed my posts I have regularly criticized using surface Web sources. What I have advocated is using deep Web authenticated sources, peer-reviewed scientific literature, and citing sources. You have learned nothing about Google from me. I advocate source evaluation using critical thinking and corroboration.

networker, you are really being offensive this evening with your "click your heels" and "Google" comments. And now this?

Google this: Brahmacharya

On a more serious note Asoka, death IS what makes life sacred. Death is part of the circle, it is purely and simply the way God made the world. If you have a problem with animals and humans eating each other, you really should take it up with God.

And it absolutely makes a difference, especially to the cow. By one method the cow lives a sick, miserable, cruelly confined, painful life. The other way, she lives naturally and happily right up to the second she dies. You sweeping dismiss the cruelty to animals as inconsequential, and you have the gall to shriek "specie-ism"?

Of course killing animals is murder, but it is entirely natural and correct that it should happen, and that we should eat them. You need to get over your sense that humans should only be here to make the bunnies and the wolves play nice together. What a profoundly sad misunderstanding of Nature herself. Is it so hard for you to get your mind around the fact that humans are also animals? Perhaps you could meditate upon why it is so important to you to imagine yourself "higher." Toward that end, I highly recommend Daniel Quinn's excellent book "Ishmael."

I appreciate most comments in this blog. I watched Jim on The End Of Suburbia years ago. He is one of my heroes. I have not read his books yet. This is my first comment on this blog. I am hardly prepared for what is coming. Where I live now I met only one engineer who was aware of the - the Tragedy of the Commons - when I mentioned Peak Oil. In general, people know things are getting worse everywhere. But there are some engineers who are still optimistic about the future, they still believe on technology. Real socialists I listen to on the radio here, are the ones that probably make more sense, because they can find fault with the government and the system, although they do not mention Peak Oil. For them, it is the workers against the oligarchy and the empire; for now they are a small minority. Public transportation is only by bus. It is a small country, water is plentiful. Brazil is our neighbor. The economy is improving, although poor people are very much a reality. Now, I have to leave. Got to catch the bus.

HAHAHA I did Google "Brahmacharya" - Asoka are you seriously claiming that you don't jerk off??

OH MY GOD THAT EXPLAINS A LOT!!!

This is fall-down hysterically funny, I am so sorry but I just fell off my chair laughing! You really do see yourself as superior, dontcha :)

OMG Asoka you HAVE to read this, if only for a humorous edification:
http://www.beyondveg.com/nicholson-w/moral-omniv/morality-omniv-1a.shtml

Tripp, you should read it for the humorous content alone :)

Here is an excerpt for you lazy people who don't wanna click on links:

"And by way of analogy, sure, when you're weighing the ecological costs, maybe the way things are getting to be these days, a vegetarian diet would use the planet's resources more efficiently. So much more efficiently, in fact, that we might possibly be able to cram 10-plus billion people onto the planet instead of just 5 or 6 billion. I mean, let's go for a new all-time record everybody, and crowd even more animal species off the planet than have already been bumped off by our modern "green revolution" that plows over half the planet's arable land, all the while destroying other animals' habitats while supplying us with plant crops. Crops that have always enabled humans to overpopulate and infest the planet like the rabbits that chew on my lawn greenery, and later get splatted flat in the middle of the road in front of my house by blunt rolling metallic projectiles."

* 1 litre of goat's or cow's milk
* 170 g cereals
* 85 g leafy vegetables
* 140 g other vegetables
* 30 g raw vegetables
* 40 g ghee
* 60 g butter
* and 40 g jaggery or sugar
* fruits according to one's taste and purse
* 2 sour limes (juice taken with vegetables or in water, cold or hot)
* salt according to taste

networker said, with apparently no sense of irony: "Perhaps you could meditate upon why it is so important to you to imagine yourself "higher."

I have never claimed to be "higher." Perhaps you should meditate on why you think you have the right to kill other species of animals. Do you also think killing and eating members of your own species is OK? What about animals that have a higher cognitive capacity than humans? Still OK with eating those animals? You are on a slippery slope, networker.

I recommend you read some of Peter Singer's books: Animal Liberation; Animal Factories; Writings on an Ethical Life, or his recent article:

SINGER, PETER. "SPECIESISM AND MORAL STATUS." Metaphilosophy 40, no. 3/4 (July 2009): 567-581.

Bullshit, you totally think you are "higher." I don't need to meditate upon why I have the right to kill other species, for two reasons: 1. I already have, and 2. because it is so blindingly obvious that God naturally made us to eat animals. Tigers eat "higher cognitive" humans with no problem or protest from God. What makes you think you know better? And quit trying to pin "animal cruelty" on me - I was the one who JUST pointed it out to you, moron.

I have never tasted human flesh, mostly because I believe it wouldn't be healthy (all that mercury and pesticides), but if I were starving I would try it. And so would you. You just don't realize that yet :)

I have been a rancher all my 62 yrs on earth. Been readen Kunstler for several years and never felt the urge to post anything until i just read the nonsense that Asoka wrote. Cattle eat grass which is not digestible by humans. Millions of acres of land in the US and much more world wide are only capable of producing grass because of weather and soil that prohibit the farming of crops. Beef is an excellent source of protein for humans (i assume Asoka is human) and during the difficult times ahead, protein will be scarce if you do not like eating bugs or dogs. Read the journals of Lewis and Clark that were written by them. You will see just how much trouble they hand in just surviving. Every days entry usually began with what was killed for food and who killed it. At one point they traded with Indians for dogs to eat for several weeks while traveling through desert type country. I will take beef over dogs every time. God blessing to all you readers.

And here, while you are not reading my links (because you already know everything as usual) here is another one that pretty much sums up what I believe about eating meat:

http://www.westonaprice.org/health-issues/287-ethics-of-eating-meat.html

Cowboy, thank you for the breath of sanity. There is a concept called rabbit-starvation that the indigenous tribes understood very well - a lack of good animal fat in the diet is deadly, although it happens slowly over time. It is also nutritionally necessary and has been scientifically proven to be so - we literally evolved into the large-brained creatures that we are BECAUSE of a high fat diet. We certainly didn't evolve on B12 tablets, that's for sure.

Then again I suppose Asoka could be vegetarian because it makes it easier for him to refrain from masturbation (loss of libido and all):
http://www.westonaprice.org/mens-health/251-mens-health-magazine.html

networker said: "God naturally made us to eat animals."

Let's examine that one a bit:

Intestinal tract length.

Carnivorous animals have intestinal tracts that are 3-6x their body length, while herbivores have intestinal tracts 10-12x their body length. Human beings have the same intestinal tract ratio as herbivores.

Stomach acidity.

Carnivores’ stomachs are 20x more acidic than the stomachs of herbivores. Human stomach acidity matches that of herbivores.

Saliva.

The saliva of carnivores is acidic. The saliva of herbivores is alkaline, which helps pre-digest plant foods. Human saliva is alkaline.

Shape of intestines.

Carnivore bowels are smooth, shaped like a pipe, so meat passes through quickly — they don’t have bumps or pockets. Herbivore bowels are bumpy and pouch-like with lots of pockets, like a windy mountain road, so plant foods pass through slowly for optimal nutrient absorption. Human bowels have the same characteristics as those of herbivores.

Fiber.

Carnivores don’t require fiber to help move food through their short and smooth digestive tracts. Herbivores require dietary fiber to move food through their long and bumpy digestive tracts, to prevent the bowels from becoming clogged with rotting food. Humans have the same requirement as herbivores.

Cholesterol.

Cholesterol is not a problem for a carnivore’s digestive system. A carnivore such as a cat can handle a high-cholesterol diet without negative health consequences. A human cannot. Humans have zero dietary need for cholesterol because our bodies manufacture all we need. Cholesterol is only found in animal foods, never in plant foods. A plant-based diet is by definition cholesterol-free.

Claws and teeth.

Carnivores have claws, sharp front teeth capable of subduing prey, and no flat molars for chewing. Herbivores have no claws or sharp front teeth capable of subduing prey, but they have flat molars for chewing. Humans have the same characteristics as herbivores.

But aren’t humans anatomically suited to be omnivores?

Nope. We don’t anatomically match up with omnivorous animals anymore than we do with carnivorous ones. Omnivores are more similar to carnivores than they are to herbivores.

SOURCES: http://bit.ly/15gFQa

Comparative Anatomy and Taxonomy
http://www.tierversuchsgegner.org/wiki/index.php?title=Taxonomy

The hog-pen, care of which is your new career.

networker, you really should stop before you embarrass yourself more. It is so obvious you know nothing about sublimation and transmutation of energy.

K-dog, please reference this page, written by Dr. Barry Groves. There are actually four or five pages about the exact dimensions and capabilities of human, dog, and sheep digestive tracts. (see Part 1: Introduction | Part 2: Dog | Part 3: Sheep | Part 4: Man | Part 5: Conclusion at the bottom of the page.) You have got it backwards.

http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/carn_herb_comparison4.html

And Asoka, my very presence seems to transmute your energy. You simply cannot deal on clear-thinking level. Period.

Cute, but irrelevant.

K-dog in addition,

1. Humans have an intestinal tract that is far shorter and closer to carnivores than to herbivores. We also do not digest or ferment cellulose. Nor do we chew our cud.
2. We have highly acidic stomachs. Ever heard of ant-acid?
3. Our saliva is also highly acidic, just like carnivores.
4. We are omnivores, we can digest SOME vegetable matter, but meat is digested far more quickly and efficiently, with very little waste. Ask anyone eating low carb how much less they have to poop.
5. We have short and small colons, just like carnivores. Herbivores have long, complicated colons, complete with the aforementioned extra stomachs.
6. We have absolutely no biological need for fiber. "Needing fiber" was a concept dreamed up by a Presbyterian minister named Sylvester Graham in the 1830s who was obsessed with chastity and proscribed a high fiber vegetarian diet in order to control lust. (Recognize anyone here?)
7. Saturated fats and cholesterol make up the very membranes of our bodies - we are literally MADE of it. Almost every single cell in our bodies produces cholesterol ALL the time during all of our lives. Get your facts straight. Cholesterol is not the boogy-man you have been led to believe.
8. Teeth: carnivores and humans have canine teeth, herbivores do not. Period. When was the last time you went to the dentist?

Again, read that link I posted, it gives even more information about it:
http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/carn_herb_comparison4.html

Asoka, if you even once showed the tiniest smidge of interest in anything other than your own navel, I might have a better answer for you. But as usual, you wore me down with your myopia.

Night, all!

Cowboy, thanks for coming out of the shadows to post a response to what you call "Asoka's nonsense".

You say: "Beef is an excellent source of protein for humans (i assume Asoka is human)"

I can vouch for the fact that Asoka is an ordinary human being. Ain't nothin' special about Asoka.

I'm pretty much done with all my weight-training and body-building. So I'm moving forward to the next phase of tribal buildup. To that end I'm purchasing weapons, hockey-masks, road-warrior cars, gasoline, leather straps, dried beans and such. And of course I'm also starting to recruit tribal members.

Anyone who wants to join the tribe please drop me a note and your CV. All our welcome, particularly if you have experience hitting people over the head with clubs. We're particularly interested in recruiting fertile breeding females.

from :

http://kunstler.com/blog/2010/10/bank-shot.html


"Look at what was invented in the 19th/early 20th century.

Internal combustion engine, rail transportation, electric light, electric motors, powered flight, refrigeration, telegraph, radio, television, mechanization of agriculture, the theory of relativity, quantum mechanics...you could go on and on.

What have we invented that was remotely as transformational as those inventions above? You want to talk "new economy" you have to look back a hundred plus years.

I think what we've done in recent decades is puny. The internet in my opinion is exceedingly small potatoes in comparison. Space flight maybe?

So are we mental midgets in comparison to those days?"

The low hanging fruit is the easiest to get: all of those inventions, which are huge were the simplest to make, the low hanging fruits. Those were the first to be picked, but as Science and Technology progresses, it becomes increasingly difficult to pick valid fruits (if there are even many left at all) since they are hanging much higher, like fusion energy, or Man trips to Mars, etc.

You can discover Electricity only once, the natural world does not offer another discovery as powerful, all encompassing and incredible as Electricity: this is a one time free quirk of nature and the laws of physics and how we, as humans, are configured with respect to nature with just the right combination of sense organs and mental contraptions to process and interact with reality.

The same can be said of Calculus and Mathematics, Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, etc. Silicon technology and Microprocessors and Moore's law and heck, even the electric guitar and rock music are really all one time quirks, free lunches, something that can be discovered only once, and I doubt very much that in the future there will be any other such huge discoveries even possible. What we have now is the problem of how to use these discoveries, and that becomes a political problem.

Maybe the only thing really left is the direct manipulation of brain - mind, the direct changing of our neural circuits, implanting chips in brains, experimenting with all kinds of drugs and wild chemicals in brains, creating Instant Singularities in the brain, virtual realities, etc. But this does not really imply "new discoveries" as those huge ones mentioned previously were like Electricity and Flight, but self manipulation of the brain and body, this is more chemical and drugs and "health care" - "pharmaceutical" and maybe "computer - virtual reality" based than anything else.

The Internet is just as transformational as flight, space travel or cars: it is the ultimate transportation machine, any place at anytime instantaneously, you just need to transfer the information of a place, not the physical place. Every point on earth (and more) is connected to every other point, indeed eventually everything can be connected to everything. So I wouldn't try to limit inventions to only the 19th or 20th century: the real limit is that you can invent the Internet only once. There are only so many really transformational inventions possible, and I don't see many left to find in the future.

You can also say that a very refined virtual reality can be infinitely transformational: just one huge invention or artifact that has a transformational power millions of times greater than all of the previous ones combined is needed. You don't need to keep on inventing or discovering new items like Electricity or the Internet, such large transformational inventions are no longer needed once the ultimate invention is made: a total virtual reality, or the technological Singularity or the Instant Singularity completely transforming minds - brains - sense organs, etc. is needed.

Indeed you can create a virtual reality that simulates new laws of physics where you are inventing huge transformational items like Electricity everyday if you have fun with that: only the informational relationship and interaction being equivalent to when Electricity was invented is needed to create a similar experience.

Another thing I noticed in the last few years is how a lot of technology has really peaked and we are essentially fighting against other people, their decisions and will power and not against matter - physics and natural limitations: if you designed or repaired a color TV in the 1980s you were fighting against physics by creating circuits and designs to optimize electronic functions, it was an objective kind of activity, everyone that could contribute, contributed as in the accumulation of knowledge, as a serial labor activity, as in labor accumulates and creates more results and wealth, as a "common good", in that each invention or perfection led to better results: today a digital TV system is just an aggregate of arbitrary designs and systems all decided by other people according to standards according to their free will, you essential fight against other people and not against nature.

The same reason why software has not (and will never progress) as opposed to hardware: hardware is objective, accumulative, labor is serialized, there are only objective ways to improve a CPU or memory chip whereas in software, everyone has a different "standard" or quirk way of doing things in mind, every program is its own quirky system, one time design, made up of thousands of arbitrary will powers designing it with hugely inefficient programming languages and choke full of politics, office politics and economic fights, etc.

I remember when JAVA and Object Oriented came out, at the time there was PASCAL that was way better and more advanced, but JAVA dominated: a throwback of decades in software, and at that point I realized that software will never advance because it is essentially politics, and then how many programmers would you need if all the major programs where well written in PASCAL ? maybe a few million less...

"Another thing I noticed in the last few years is how a lot of technology has really peaked and we are essentially fighting against other people, their decisions and will power and not against matter - physics and natural limitations: if you designed or repaired a color TV in the 1980s you were fighting against physics by creating circuits and designs to optimize electronic functions, it was an objective kind of activity, everyone that could contribute, contributed as in the accumulation of knowledge, as a serial labor activity, as in labor accumulates and creates more results and wealth, as a "common good", in that each invention or perfection led to better results: today a digital TV system is just an aggregate of arbitrary designs and systems all decided by other people according to standards according to their free will, you essential fight against other people and not against nature.

The same reason why software has not (and will never progress) as opposed to hardware: hardware is objective, accumulative, labor is serialized, there are only objective ways to improve a CPU or memory chip whereas in software, everyone has a different "standard" or quirk way of doing things in mind, every program is its own quirky system, one time design, made up of thousands of arbitrary will powers designing it with hugely inefficient programming languages and choke full of politics, office politics and economic fights, etc.

I remember when JAVA and Object Oriented came out, at the time there was PASCAL that was way better and more advanced, but JAVA dominated: a throwback of decades in software, and at that point I realized that software will never advance because it is essentially politics, and then how many programmers would you need if all the major programs where well written in PASCAL ? maybe a few million less..."

And this ties in nicely why "hot new skill sets" is a farce: back then, you accumulated a skill set according to objective limitations, a good circuit designer was valid and could be measured objectively: today a good programmer is undefined because the languages and styles and buzz words always change ( on purpose so corporations can always hire and fire and have the excuse of people not having the right skill sets that are always changing, arbitrary quirks that don't lead to nothing and are contrasting labor processes as opposed to serial and accumulative labor processes) , in a subtle political fight to see who dominates who, but only according to the present fashion, according to what is perceived as innovation, or innovative, and in fact most that is considered innovative today is decades old and mostly a bunch of crap.


Over a century ago, the criminologist
Claude Pinel said "Societies get the
criminals they deserve". I would extend
that statement to "Societies also get
the politicians they deserve and the
professionals they deserve".

The rot does not stop at the top nor does
it sprout from the criminal classes and
stop before it hits middle class. This
is the SECOND DARK AGE. Like the first
one, intelligence is mocked. Modesty is
replaced by rapaciousness.

Social behavior like that depicted in
Chelsea Handler's "My Horizontal Life"
actually makes the New York Times bestseller
list though it's one of the scummiest BRAGS
I've ever seen in print. Charles Bukowsky
was the soul of self-effacement by comparison.

It takes a teacher at a public school (a CC)
where my average student is over thirty to
see that even AGE now guarantees no refinement,
no competence, no sense of duty, no drive, and
no ordinary care.

I've been told by many that my choice of THIS
academic year (March 23, 2011 to be precise)
to retire was most fortunate. And indeed it
is because EVERY instructor at my CC has told
me that they've gotten 30-50% drop rates BEFORE
the midterm. In English. In Accounting. In
Spanish. In Math. In CS.

Something wicked this way comes. It is palpable.
My students and all the other faculty's students
are just people ... a cross-section of the Bay
Area. And the Bay Area, in a media age, is just
another place in the "global village". I think
we're heading for a very serious social debacle
within ONE year. One. I hope I'm wrong but
in just one short year the entirety of my school
has gone from merely bad to classes with a near-
sociopathic level of neglect and horrid demeanor.

Could be a skewed sample. Sure doesn't feel like
it.


E.

Good Morning all:

Jim thanks another direct look into our mafia business model. I am asked our town council/supervisor if our inner burb can have 3 chcikens for each household to get ready for energy descent world that is coming. They are Republican Conservative-Global Economy, Ayn Rand Business believers. They all read Altas Shurged, like its holier than the bible. Not to worry they claim, the market will heal us and deliver us. We lost power in the early evening last week for 6 hours, my wind up lamps and laterns were excellent,and some of my neighbors who are trying to prepare like me, also were ok, but the rest of them panic, worry, dazed and confused, wow its going to be interesting.


Well said, NW, about human diet and a tip
of my hat to Cowboy as well. There's so
much horseshit in books about diet. Humans
have CANINE teeth and they are genetically
very well-coded for digestion of mammal meat.

Birding doesn't work too well except for birds
that DON'T FLY (it's a cinch to catch a chicken
or a turkey but a day's work to bag a quail with
a shotgun). Early N. American hunters probably
got boars and rabbits for dinner a helluva lot
more than birds.

Of course, the alleged "Buddhists" on this site
might give some sort of Californicated diatribe
about "murdering" animals but the Dalai Lama
himself eats meat. About the only food that
doesn't involve murder is gathering fruit from
trees. Well, a few nutters have tried a
fruit-only diet like Arnold Ehret, a famous
aesthete, and he died in his mid-50s ... not
exactly a ringing endorsement.

Dietary zealotry has spawned some of the most
oddly vituperative and scientifically dubious
movements in the world. They're as bad as
Holy Rollers.


E.


Before somebody else does ... yes, I know
Ehret allegedly died by falling on a slick
street. This attribution is now widely
questioned. Even if he fell, how many
people under SIXTY die from a simple fall
on wet pavement?? I'll bet Ehret's
constitution was VERY frail.

E.


When Jim talks about all the wrong paperwork
in the mortgage biz, it just makes me more
adamant that it's a GENERAL Dark Age. Few
have an honorable sense of duty any more.

Indeed, it's precisely honor and nobility that
are seeping out of ordinary people. You know,
the very kind of people who filled out and filed
that bureaucratic paperwork for title companies
and banks.

It permeates all sectors of work, the family, and
communities. It's precisely right now that the
VIRTUOUS are going to suffer because they care
and caring is for "squares".


E.


NW said:

"And Asoka, my very presence seems to transmute your energy. You simply cannot deal on clear-thinking level. Period."

You're just discovering this, NW??! :-) :-)

How can one come across as "clear-thinking"
when he's being a self-anointed "Buddhist"
who thinks he has "crazy wisdom" one day
and a fact-a-holic wiki quoter the next.

I think this guy has more personalities than
than five ordinary schizos combined. Okay,
maybe six or seven. Or he's just a normal
Gen-Y'er. :-)

Just recite this poem, Asoka:

"Roses are red, violets are blue, I'm
schizophrenic and so am I."

Cheers,

E.

James,
A really superb piece, thanks for capturing the essence of our current mess so well. Dare I hope the right set of events play out to fix this, vs. the banks just getting another gov. bailout.

Cheers,
H.

....re trippticket's permaculturosity etc and the comments that were directed against it --

someone can correkt me if i'm Wrong:

1 - producing just 5% of one's own food in one's own Victory Garden would make an enormous [positive] difference w/respekt to energy consumption, depletion of aquifers, pesticide runoff etc. We don't need a wholesale replacement of mass agriculture by permaculture to make a net-Positive Contributory Change.

hasn't it been demonstrated that if every adult in the US planted one tree, the net carbon effect would be felt on a global level?

sumwun please back me up or shoot me down.
feels like it's Time everyone got SelfContain'd.


E,

"I think we're heading for a very serious social debacle within ONE year. One. I hope I'm wrong but in just one short year the entirety of my school has gone from merely bad to classes with a near- sociopathic level of neglect and horrid demeanor."

As you have probably gathered is that I have always felt in the background that the things we take for granted about our civilization could slip into darker territory. What we perceive on the surface of our culture has a flip side. Can't avoid the multifaceted nature of ourselves no matter how we try to over-simplify. (That's why fundamentalism drives me crazy.)

Your description of the students at your cc is an age-old problem. Learning isn't just about sitting in a class and being lectured to/or reading proscribed text. For some reason the public school system has failed to avail students to the tools to explore any given subject. It means taking extra time out to explore. Whether it's checking out a library or going out into the world to observe, people seem to assume someone else should provide them with all the information they need just to pass a test.

Not that I'm claiming to be any great shakes in the intellectual realm, but it's really all about application. Learning anything makes no sense unless you take everything around you and synthesize the book learning with the empirical.

When I was in school as a Painting major, I was taking a drawing class. One day a debate ensued as a student asked the professor why he didn't teach them how to really draw. I think my blood pressure hit some astronomical high! How could anybody think someone can teach them their own handwriting? Nobody can teach you that, it comes from somewhere inside you, hopefully as a synthesis of intellect and the motor skills.

I said there's a library right across the street with the most amazing folios of drawings from the Quattrocento, ie. and so much more. Why don't you check it out? Go to museums and really look at the details of work you think can help you get where you want to go. Even just taking a walk and observing what's around you is as important as anything someone can teach.

Sitting at the computer and googling is helpful, but you still have to connect with the world around you. That's what your students have failed to appreciate and why learning doesn't resonate with them. The decline of culture doesn't help.

Eleuthero thanks, it is hard to stop gnawing on Asoka's leg bone - he just brings out the carnivore in me I guess :) Anyone who wants to impose his own stilted beliefs upon the rest of us is beyond arrogant, but he also clearly believes that his dietary approach puts him on the path to Virtue, as though it makes him morally "good" if he drinks wheatgrass juice instead of having bacon and eggs for breakfast. (Really, it only gives him the runs.) He even trys to deny his own innate human nature, sexual and otherwise, and I believe therein lies the clue to what drives his weird imbalanced rantings. Don't get me wrong, he can be ascetic-ly vegan all he wants, (go ahead, make yourself weak Asoka) except for the fact that he jumped into the discussion screaming that eating meat was akin to racism ("specie-ism") and proceeded to sanctimoniously damn the rest of us who don't follow his pompous way.

BeyondVeg says it better:
"This vegetarian immorality and hubris of wanting to take it upon themselves to redesign the balance of nature knows no bounds. If vegetarians got to create creation in their own image and had their way, there'd probably be no carnivores or omnivores at all....No more lions and tigers and bears (oh my!). No sirree! Just a Wizard-of-Oz fairytale existence where everything is Emerald-City green, populated with plants and squeaky, smiley, feel-good munchkins stunted by generations of eating nothing but green, green, and even more green. And all you'd have to do is click your ruby-slippered heels three times, and you'd be transported to the fantasy world of your dreams where nothing in nature ever kills anything else at all."
"But back to the real world. Doesn't it seem just a bit strange that where killing for food is concerned, few condemn the revered Native Americans and all their past buffalo hunting, who are held in such high esteem that movies like "Dances with Wolves" portraying them have won Academy Awards, with even the vegetarians crying crocodile tears while eating their popcorn in the front rows of theaters everywhere? Somehow I guess the fact the Indians killed the buffalo with some sense of compassion about the poignancy of its (and their own) place in the overall scheme of things is an example of conscientious human behavior that really isn't so hard to conceive of after all, huh?"

eightm just so you know, if I see your name at the top of a post now, I automatically scroll through it without reading - they are just that silly. I should try that with Asoka's as well.

Lord Humungous, you are going to need a lot more than beans if you plan on road-warrioring around. And take it from me, babies seriously tend to slow you down. What you really need are level-headed women who can shoot, hunt, forage and be able to ask for directions.

networker said: "I should try that with Asoka's as well."

Yes, please do. I am an ignorant fool.

You should not read, nor should you waste time responding to anything a fool writes. Thank you.

"What appears to be happening is a total freeze on the Real Estate business. Now that the ownership paper is suspect, title companies won't insure and banks won't lend."

Thats so yesterday. Read on. From today's WSJ:

"Two major lenders at the center of the foreclosure crisis took steps Monday to put the mess behind them by restarting home seizures that were frozen by documentation concerns.

Bank of America Corp. reopened more than 100,000 foreclosure actions, declaring that it had found no significant problems in its procedures for seizing homes. GMAC Mortgage, a lender and loan servicer, said that it also is pushing ahead with an unspecified number of foreclosures that came under intense pressure."

"Yes, the "tea party" knows there's something wrong, but their solution is more of what got us where we are."

Really? Hows that? More of what got us here?

The tea party wants less government, less taxation and a return to the principles out lined in the U.S. Constitution. How the fuck is that "more of what got us here"?

...except that those 100,000+ homeowners now know how to challenge foreclosure, and EVERY fucking lawyer in this lawyer-soused country is licking his contingency chops & seeking out said foreclosed homeowners.

yep it'll just be a breeze seizing two million homes this year won't it? i foresee no court challenges, as there are no issues with who actually owns homes in this bizarre country, and where documents are, and if they're signed, and if the right 'owner' is getting paid, and if the mortgage isn't owned by perhaps two parties, ad nauseum.

PLUS, since the WSJ 'reported' this we can guess that the banking 'industry' just fixed everything over the weekend.

"This is a real forehead slapper: there's no oversight, no regulation of the collection process."

So lets see. Some moron bought a house he/she had no hope in hell of paying for. Now they are in default. So get the fuck out. Like...now.

There is absolutely no need for oversight or regulation.

"I'm noticing a rather sharp uptick in the amount of rhetorical violence out there. Since I can't imagine Republicans (most of whom are overweight and overexcitable) having any coherent response to the current crisis"

Really? Well that is because you are a moron, walt. The "response to the current crisis" will be the November election. It will be historic. And after the newly elected are in place the hard work of undoing what this current bunch of childish, idiots, who actually thought that there was such a thing as a free lunch, will begin. It will be a long, grueling slog that will take decades to undo but it will begin in early 2011.

"PLUS, since the WSJ 'reported' this we can guess that the banking 'industry' just fixed everything over the weekend. "

Ah, no I don't think we can surmise any such thing. But on the very day that Jim is trying to sell a total freeze-up of the mortgage industry, two major players (Bank of America and GMAC Mortgage) announce they will restart the foreclosure process. I guess it is not quite as frozen as Jim wrote about. Like ah...things change man. Shit happens.

"That's why the banks hate the poor and throw them out of their homes with glee...it's called fraud, graft, deceit."

What a moronic statement. What fucking bank wants to throw the "poor" out? The expense involved and the legal procedures are mind boggling. Then one ends up with an empty structure (subject to vandalism) with a current market of few qualified buyers.

The last thing...the last fucking thing, a bank wants to do is throw people out of their homes. Its a lose/lose proposition.

"I get so incensed when I hear these tea party morons blabbing about how we should just get rid of the gubbmint."

Hmmm. I don't think I've heard of a single tea party "moron" say we should "... just get rid of the gubbmint. They are calling for responsible government. They are calling for the end of utopian dreams where the government is going to provide any and all services from cradle to grave.

Why? Cause it ain't working. It never has and it never can work. Because when you continue to confiscate more and more from the producers (who make up a minority) and redistribute it amongst non-producers (a growing majority) you end up where we are...bankrupt.

As Maggie Thatcher put it, "The proiblem with socialism is that eventually you run out of pockets you can pick."
We are there. Those who align with the tea part are aware of our situation. You being an idiot, are not. No surprise there.

Asoka, what you said to me was extremely rude. I made a very logical point, based on science, ecology, and human physiology, and in no way did I direct it as an attack at you.

BUT, judging by your schizophrenic behavior, your containment of more multitudes than you seem capable of keeping up with, I can't help but question the soundness of your dietary choices.

It all comes back to food, and your attack on me was probably the best endorsement for including meat in our diet that we're likely to get on this thread. So I guess I should be thankful.

I obviously want you to study permaculture, but I'd really prefer you did the study part before casting yourself as a representative of it. Just sayin'.

I really like what Mika had to say up-thread about entitlement programs being "hush money" for the masses. If they weren't getting paid, the free market would've over-run the financial elite a long time ago.

I think your biggest short-coming is thinking that the current state of affairs contains a malicious component. It just is what it is. We are a product of our energetic reality, and our current energetic reality is putting the brakes on our consumption in a big bad way. If that bothers you, then by all means, work to elect the people you think will make it right. But David (political reform) beating Goliath (the free market) is just an amusing story. We're headed into rapid balkanization regardless of who's at the helm....because that's how energy flows work.

It's just as retarded to think that anyone in power WANTS dissolution of the union as it is to think banks want to kick out their mortgage holders in a god-awful market. Well said. But that's what's on the way. Go find a city where people are as angry as you, and you guys can have vein-popping red-face contests to see who's mayor. Who needs democracy when you have such reserves of unbridled malice?

"Who needs democracy when you have such reserves of unbridled malice?"

You don't seem to get it. A democratic republic is the only hope for "reserves of unbridled malice".

I got nothing.

We did the "rule of law" thing last year when I figured some one would notice all the phony paper.

Two things - Do you suppose the "tea party" is some kind of sarcastic practical joke the rich invented to provide fodder for their media outlets?

Anyone care to note the remarkable ability of the rich to control the message surrounding the winding down of the Tarp program and with the help of selective accounting practices providing those incredible benefits to taxpayers? Man, that's rich!

"It's just as retarded to think that anyone in power WANTS dissolution of the union..."

Who on God's green earth proposed that someone in power "...WANTS dissolution of the union.."? Who the hell are you directing your comments towards?

Asoka, I'm curious, do the plants you eat not have a specific epithet? Last I checked wheat was known to botanists as Triticum aestivum, not Homo sapiens, and soybeans are called Glysine max, not Homo sapiens.

This is just as severe a demonstration of "speciesism" as eating Bos taurus or Gallus domesticus.

Not to mention that the alternative to speciesism is cannibalism! I'm afraid your diet is severely affecting your ability to reason.

"You don't seem to get it. A democratic republic is the only hope for "reserves of unbridled malice"."

And that's a good thing to someone else besides you?

"Who on God's green earth proposed that someone in power "...WANTS dissolution of the union.."?"

Isn't this what you're implying when you talk about the idiots in power giving away the country?

I'm afraid your diet is severely affecting your ability to reason.
==

Let's not forget the jihadi salat sessions, where asoka hits his "buddhist" head against the floor 5 times a day, every day.

"Something wicked this way comes. It is palpable."

You will enjoy Martin Armstrong's recent article:

"Nice Try, But No Cigar"

http://www.martinarmstrong.org/files/Nice%20Try%20but%20No%20Cigar%2010-9-2010.pdf

"Isn't this what you're implying when you talk about the idiots in power giving away the country?"

I didn't talk about the "... the idiots in power giving away the country." I merely suggested that they are appropriating way too much from the producers to redistribute to the non-producers and that it can't work. Math gets in the way.

They aren't giving away the country. They just want a country that was begun as a democratic republic to evolve into one based on socialism. Again, the current polls suggest that the results of the up-and-coming election will refute this push towards a socialistic model. Why? Look at the crumbling socialist states of Europe. Didn't work there, can't work here. Enough of the electorate in the U.S. has come to see Obamaworld for what it is... a failed promise that, due to a lack of funding and a reluctance to cede any more control to an out of control government, has proven to be a house of cards. (And borrowed,marked cards at that.)

"And that's a good thing to someone else besides you"

If someone can make sense out of this please explain it to me. thanks.

networker, you dance really well.

You danced around my question to you about cannibalism, after saying "Is it so hard for you to get your mind around the fact that humans are also animals?" and painting a tooth-and-claw picture of nature. You think it is so natural that animals eat animals. You say we are animals. Do you practice cannibalism? Are you OK with it?

You danced around the facts I presented on comparative anatomy and physiology of hebivores and carnivores. (Comparative Anatomy and Taxonomy
http://www.tierversuchsgegner.org/wiki/index.php?title=Taxonomy )

You fantasize that I feel myself to be morally superior, with no evidence at all, because I have never made that claim.

And you top it off by calling me a navel gazer.

You always resort to ad hominem attack instead of responding to substantive issues.

E. said: "Something wicked this way comes. It is palpable."

Yes, it is about two Friedman units away, just after your retirement.

"Let's not forget the jihadi salat sessions, where asoka hits his "buddhist" head against the floor 5 times a day, every day."

Nor the headulus/rectum maneuver where he inserts his head up his ass about five times a day as well.

Tripp, your specie-ism is just as offensive to me as the racism, sexism, homophobia, and xenophobia expressed regularly on this site. - Asoka

SPECIE-ISM? Asoka, that is just fucking hilarious!!! Are you serious? Hard to know.

Specie-ism... let me savour it, it's delicious. Did you just invent the term because if you did I'm impressed. When I read it I had convulsions trying not to laugh (I'm in a library so I have to keep a lid on it). Funniest shit I've read in a long time. Liberalism unglued and spaced out...you have a great talent for satire.

Listen man, come north. We have a political party up here that needs inspiration and you can give it. They're lagging in the polls and they're always looking for new things to feel offended and outraged over. Their leader, who reminds me of a walking talking exclamation mark, can get apoplectic wishing you good morning. You guys would get on just great. Plus our capital city (the place that fun forgot) needs guys like you.

OK maybe politics isn't your thing. Royal Canadian Air Farce went off the air last year. You could help revive it with material like this. Long live the Chicken Cannon! Oh don't worry, they used rubber chickens.

....jeeeeeezus, folks out here insisting that we fukking EAT a certain way.

does it get ANY lamer? ????

keep yur damn religion to yurself

Have you ever killed and dressed a deer or steer? It's hard to kill something with a face like Bambi's Dad. If one has to eat so be it. But there is something wrong with people who kill for pleasure and then have pictures taken of themselves with their foot on the carcass. It is so disrepectful of the beauty and the life that just was - which they have ended. I'm 100% for Western Man, but on this one I think the Native Americans had it right. Be humble. Apologize to the spirit of the animal. Explain why you have killed him. Thank him and say a prayer for his spirit.

I admire JHK's recognition that the system is broken, but the Doomsday scenarios are rather divorced from reality. There are too many players with too much invested to let our corporate-welfare state go under. This includes most of us - people with jobs, mortgages, 401ks, children, etc. Life goes on.

And while I recognize that buying real estate is a risky venture right now, I actually did just that (contrary to JHK's assertion that no one is doing so). It's an old house (built 1880) in good condition, in a small walkable city, with Hudson River views. I will be making monthly payments to Wells Fargo and to the tax man, in exchange for which I expect to enjoy my fireplace, backyard, and taking strolls in my charming little town. Yes, the American economic system is a monstrosity, but I do not think the Apocalypse is in full swing at this time.

It is so amusing to read the veiled threats like "You just wait until November!" from the angry internet brown shirts. What exactly do you think is going to happen in November? To roll anything back will require a 2/3 majority, which the Repubs will not achieve. It is all a bunch of hot air and fear mongering (like usual).

When it comes to fiscal prudence, Republicans are even worse than Democrats. At least the Dems seem to realize (from time to time) that when government expenditures exceed revenues, taxes need to be raised or something needs to be cut or scaled back. They have done a pretty good job when given the chance. The last balanced budget was achieved under Clinton, which Bush II proceeded to wreck with unjustified tax cuts and a massive ballooning of the security apparatus.

Republicans have been the worst at managing federal budgets going back to Nixon. Reagan and Bush II added the most to the federal deficit out of anyone. Well, perhaps Obama is getting close to matching them. At least he's indicated that he is interested in a balanced budget, though I don't believe it is at all realistic right now.

So given their terrible track record it is just downright hilarious to read that Republicans are going to save us from our financial troubles come November. I'm reminded of a battered housewife that keeps returning to her husband because "It will be different this time."

Interesting post this week, JHK. I usually agree with you nearly 90%, but this week I need to call you on something.

I find it impossible to believe that the MBS and ARM inspired mayhem in real estate is going to take us into lawlessness and anarchy. Something else certainly may do so - but not this.

Consider that WELL less than 30% of home loans are "upside down," and I THINK only 10% are non-performing at the present time. Consider that the Fed is desperately pushing strings and pulling levers to get some inflation started - and 10% CPI inflation will make real estate look like a pretty good deal again - at least for a while in most areas.

Consider that I am seeing (in Atlanta suburbs) residential rents DROP as more and more owners have put their properties up for rent somewhere - I've gotta say this one may not end that well because these people tend not to have a CLUE about rental management.

Finally, in reference to title and foreclosure problems. There are certainly some HORRIBLE MESSES out there. But real estate is different from other frauds in that -somewhere out there - there is a real piece of property that has a value greater than zero.

Keep up the good work, JHK, you are right FAR more often than you are wrong. And thank you so much for providing this forum where "mostly" like minded intelligent people can thrash it out every week.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_37/b4000001.htm

But let's not forget about that other boondogle - our project to Americanize and/or Westernize the entire World - which you seem to support. By what fucking right did we do this? And by what fucking right did we do it off the backs of the American People. Where is deficit spending for foreign aid/war in the Consititution?

It's like the old opening to the Superman show - "Truth, Justice, and the American Way", as if these are synonomous automatically. We have to dig deeper past appearances. The Kennedys always raved about their "Commitment to Public Service" but wasn't it really just an incomparable lust for power? Just so with the desire to "help" the world by conqering it - in reality a lust for new markets and the absolute power gained thereby.

Your values are the values of the Greatest Generation, the Superman Show. They are superior to current values in terms of personal and fiscal morality. But the overweening pride of that era lead us straight to our current debacle. Things must be judged in the long term, not just whether they work great for a few years. But this measure the values of the greatest generation fail just like the green revolution in agriculture. Hubris both. Incredible short term gains with the price put off for future generations to pay. And then the pride and disguised lust of power that leads to imposing these flawed systems on the rest of the world.

Superman and virtually all the Marvel Heroes were the creation of Jews. They are virtual golems who defend Jewish Interests - in this case via the imagination of the young. And as you know, no group is more in favor of this vicious globalism than the Jews. With a stoke of their pens, they destroyed the reputation of an American Hero like Lindbergh just because he thought we should stay out of the WW2 and he had the temerity to mention that they were for the war. He didn't say anything bad about them - he just said that they and Great Britain wanted us in. This they could not forgive. Just like Sanchez, no one can mention their name or this poor weak oppressed people will destroy them.

"....at the time there was PASCAL that was way "....better and more advanced, but JAVA dominated: a throwback of decades in software, and at that point I realized that software will never advance because it is essentially politics, and then how many programmers would you need if all the major programs where well written in PASCAL ? maybe a few million less.."
=========
8M, I took BASIC and FOURTRAN back in the '70's and then WISELY decided to get the hell out of computer programming.

But your argument works EVEN BETTER for tax accountants, lawyers, CEO's - - basically for any overpaid occupational category where we have an excess of useful workers.

RE: small government

American prosperity in the last century has been almost entirely based on government programs, intervention, and growth. You are rewriting history to argue otherwise.

Just a few examples...

-Rural electrification program, which took the South from being an economic backwater to where it is today (basically).

-Establishment of the Federal Reserve, which allowed massive growth of the private financial system, and a subsequent boom of the economy (roaring 20's and all subsequent booms, etc.).

-Intervention in WWI, which took America from an isolationist stance to one of being involved with the international community.

-The New Deal, which probably saved America from complete collapse and possible descent into dictatorship (as occurred in Europe).

-The massive program to convert peace time industries like auto manufacturers to a war footing for WWII. This pumped massive amounts of capital into the economy, which was instrumental in getting out of the Great Depression.

-The GI Bill, which sent thousands (millions?) to college, and set the stage for economic prosperity during the 50's and 60's.

-The construction of the interstate highway system, which has created a massive boom in interstate shipping of goods of all kinds.

-Funding of basic R&D, which has lead to, among other recent inventions, the internet.

-The massive US military, which aside from providing employment to millions of mostly young people, funnels billions of dollars into the private sector.

I could go on but you get my point.

So say what you want about "socialism." Socialist or semi-socialist programs are what "got us here." I'm not sure what exactly these Tea Partiers want to roll back to. Upton Sinclair, "The Jungle" anyone?

Oh, and I didn't know that the European countries are "crumbling." That's news to them. Have you actually been lately or are you talking out your ass again? Their roads, railroads, and most other infrastructure is generally better than it is here. The French get 70%+ of their power from nuclear and export more energy than any other country, in raw amounts. They have far less poverty and more equal income distributions.

I don't know what the Tea Partiers have as a counter-example. Coca Cola? Enron? Bernie Madoff?

And who are these mythical "producers" whom the government supposedly fleeces? Would they be the financial gurus that almost collapsed the world economy and then went begging to the GOVERNMENT for handouts?

Government does a pretty good job. It isn't perfect. You're right to be concerned about deficits and its ballooning size. But let's be reasonable about this. It isn't 1789. Rolling back "socialism" is not possible at this point. You're about 100 years too late to be crying foul about it.

Sure, an animal is a life form so don't kill for no reason.

But, having said that, meat is food. Always has been. Asoka does swan dives into ridiculousness. Pretending he's offended over this new ism, species-ism, and then condemning Tripp for eating meat is ridiculous.

I think Asia's grandfather said don't complain if the meat is tough. Tougher if their ain't none.

Asoka sounds too much like someone who's never suffered hunger. He says he's a 60+ year old black man. Now, I have no idea as to his socio-economic background, but I'll bet there are black people in his age group and older that grew up malnourished in circumstances of pretty tough deprivation in the segregated south. I wonder what they would think of Asoka's anti species-ism.

I've said in other posts that my own parents grew up half starved peasants in Italy. Believe me, people like my parents that experience deprivation have zero time for the Asokas of the world and their sniffy moral affectations wrt to meat.

What's your point weirdo?

Some fun facts...

What country has seen 10% or more growth per year in their real economy over the last 10 years?

The socialist dictatorship of China.

Who is the largest single employer on the entire planet?

The Department of Defense.

The world isn't an Ayn Rand novel. GTF over it.

Geeze, guys, let's not forget that Asoka's stance on meat-eating and species-ism is shared by many other folks in the world. It's not as though he's made up this belief system. I think he's perfectly entitled to his vegetarianism or (I hope, given his writings here) VEGAN beliefs.
I think each of us has to follow his own path in ethics and eating. Asoka has offered up some valuable links -- Peter Singer is hard to resist, actually, when you read him on ethics -- but then, bacon is hard to resist, too.
You make your choices, and take your consequences.

Beautifully put, Turkle
Great refute to those who don't seem to get it. The conservative and neoliberal agenda does not build strong nation states. They keep insisting that they go in this direction but after thirty years we see that depending on the service economy to build wealth isn't happening.
For those who have posted that the few shouldn't have to carry the many, that would not have been the case if our job market wasn't being decimated by off-shoring, dismantling manufacturing and keeping companies smaller creating lots of competition. Too bad the Sherman Anti-trust laws have been all but ignored.

no one here [cept me] complained about Tripps describing 'binding and beheading young birds'..
but 'they' sure went after asoka!

Yeah, going after Asoka is an interesting and puzzling activity on this forum...it's weird because there are a lot of pretty offensive things written here...and I really don't see the offense in Asoka's writings. He sounds like a nice guy who is addicted to trying to prove he's right... impossible to do in a forum like this...but I just do not understand the other people's frustrations with him.

'But there is something wrong with people who kill for pleasure and then have pictures taken of themselves with their foot on the carcass.'

According to the book 'LAST HOURS OF ANCIENT SUNLIGHT' the species hunted in [not so paradisical] Brazil is slum children, and the gun club guys take pics of themselves beside the 'criminal' dead.

There sure does seem to be a lot of defensiveness around meat eating.

I am not telling people to become vegan. I simply said wanton disregard of other animals (and yes we are animals) is offensive to me, whether the killing is on a mass scale or on an individual scale.

If would be stupid for me to preach not eating meat. It would be stupid of me to claim to be "morally superior" to anyone else.

mila59 has stated my position beautifully: "I think each of us has to follow his own path in ethics and eating." That is exactly what I believe.

If you are offended by facts about animal factories, or by data on comparative anatomy, etc. then each one has to figure out what to do with that. I am trying to be descriptive, not prescriptive.

CORRECTION:
I simply said wanton disregard of other animals' RIGHT TO LIFE(and yes we are animals) is offensive to me, whether the killing is on a mass scale or on an individual scale.

Turkey-lurkey sez:
"Oh, and I didn't know that the European countries are "crumbling." That's news to them. Have you actually been lately or are you talking out your ass again? "

Today's news:

"PARIS (Reuters) - Striking public sector workers disrupted travel across France on Tuesday and sporadic violence flared at protest marches as opponents of President Nicolas Sarkozy's pension reform made a last-ditch attempt to stop it."

"Thousands of demonstrators rallied in London on Tuesday against harsh austerity measures being unveiled by the government this week in a bid to pay off a huge deficit"

"(AP) Tens of thousands of students marched through Austrian cities Tuesday to demand more money for higher education in an unexpectedly large protest backed by university staff."

"The European Commission was warned today to leave tax-raising to the Chancellor of the Exchequer after Brussels suggested new ways of financing the EU budget.
An 'options paper' to be unveiled by the commission sets out alternatives for a direct tax on EU citizens for the first time to help fund the £108billion-a-year cost of running euro policies."

"Thousands of health workers, council staff, firefighters, teachers and other public sector employees have joined a noisy rally in Westminster to protest against the Government's "brutal" spending cuts."

"BERLIN, Oct. 18 (Xinhua) -- German Chancellor Angela Merkel said at the weekend that Germany's attempts to build a multicultural society had "utterly failed."

Merkel's remarks, made at a meeting of young members of her center-right Christian Democratic Union, has triggered a public debate over how to deal with millions of immigrants who arrived in Germany during the country's postwar economic boom in the 1960s to make their fortunes.

Merkel said immigrants are welcome in Germany, but they must learn the country's language and accept the country's cultural norms.

She said the concept of multiculturalism, long championed by the German left, had been discredited. "This multicultural approach, saying that we simply live side by side and live happily with each other has failed, utterly failed."

Turk, don't bother, ass-wipe. I can make you look like the dink you are all day long, without breaking a sweat. So, shut the fuck up, wuss-boy.

The heroic individual "producer" is a right-wing myth that has no basis in fact. It has been propped up mostly by fiction like Ayn Rand novels and propaganda about people's inherent worth (supposedly based on the size of their paycheck). Wealth accumulation is and always has based on collective enterprises of one kind or another, ranging from collectivist hunter-gatherer tribes to modern capitalist corporations. Even the examples that conservatives use, e.g. small businesses, successful corporations, etc., are organizations of individuals carried along by all their employees and really by all of society. They are not comprised of one person carrying the whole weight or even close to it. The problem is that in the current system the people at the top of these social structures siphon off most of the gains, leaving the bottom with table scraps.

Even in situations that seem as if one individual is completely responsible for their own wealth, it isn't even close to being the case. Society provides the tools, the knowledge, and the structure for them to do this, even when they act alone. I think of a homesteader on the Great Plains, about as ruggedly individualistic as one could get. Where would this person have gotten their tools, their gun, their plow? Who protected them from the "Injuns"? (hint: government) Who allowed them to have their plot of land for free or for peanuts? (hint: government) Where do they get their seeds? Would they succeed without their neighbors and their family helping them? etc.

A very wise person once said, "No man is an island." Couldn't have said it better myself.

Trip tripped, "Finally, Permaculture will fail in the urban environment simply because it will never produce the amount of food that the urbanizing population consumes."

See Havana, Cuba post Soviet collapse for an immediate debunking of this claim.'

Give me a break.

Permaculture was in no way involved in the Cuban food crisis. In no way. Unless you think forced labor and dictatorship is Permaculture.

In fact, authoritarian agriculture is more along the lines of the future I see us facing. It will be more like the FDA taking over Monsanto though.

Turkle must be more correct than Tzatza. As evidence, consider Tzatza's descent into pointless insult and invective.
========
"Turk, don't bother, ass-wipe. I can make you look like the dink you are all day long, without breaking a sweat. So, shut the fuck up, wuss-boy."
=======
What exactly is the point. If we were in a bar that would be a pretty good way to start a fight.

It's the anonymous internet.

Who would be talking about these subjects in a bar, anyway?

I am aware of all those events, Tza. Why do strikes, rallies, and political discussion equate to a society "crumbling" in your mind? Those are the kind of activities that constitute a lively and healthy political dialog. For instance, I don't agree with most of what the Tea Partiers say, but I realize it is important that their voice be heard. The same goes for all opinions and viewpoints in a democratic society. And the same goes for people who don't want their pensions benefits altered. It will probably happen anyways due to shaky government finances across Europe (across the entire world in fact), which make cutbacks inevitable.

Democracy is a big noisy mess and it always has been. American history is full of strikes, workers riots, demonstrations, etc. This doesn't mean that our society is or was falling apart. As those famous Brits once said, "We can work it out."

The national sport of France seems to be going on strike, according to a friend I know who has lived there. They all deal with it one way or another. It doesn't mean that their country is "crumbling." They seem to muddle along just fine.

You want to see crumbling. Let's take a little visit to Detroit, Michigan or Buffalo, New York to see some American cities that are literally falling apart. I challenge you to find me any similarly decrepit and ghettoized city in a European country. I am not aware of any.

And leave out the insults directed at me and other posters, BTW. They're completely useless to the discussion and just undermine the points you're attempting to make, though judging by how much you use them, insulting others must make you feel good about yourself. This behavior has already gotten you banned multiple times from this blog, and I would have thought that if you're as smart as you claim to be, you would've learned your lesson by now and stopped calling other people names simply because they disagree with you. Also, if you viewpoint is so self-evidently correct, your arguments should easily stand on their own without needing a gratuitous "f***tard" or "moron" at the end of every post. This is exactly the kind of childish behavior from people of your political stripe that has caused the American national political dialog to take such an unnecessarily nasty turn lately.

And on that note, sorry for calling you a weirdo, Vlad, though I do worry about the state of your mental health sometimes.

Good day to all of you.

That's just how TzaTza and his (her?) last six banned accounts roll around here. Those kinds of unspecific, childish insults roll off your back like water if you've spent any time posting to internet message boards. He might as well toss in a few "yer momma" jokes, for all the good it will do.

Cyberspace is chock full of angry people who just want to make themselves feel good by denigrating others for being different than them or having a differing opinion. The macho posing is also pretty indicative of an unhealthy ego. A mentally healthy person wouldn't take this ridiculous stance.

I'm just trying to help by calling for a stop to it, and I have been somewhat guilty of this in the past, too. I apologize for any silly name calling I may have participated in on this board in the past. I have realized that the insults really are completely pointless, and I don't feel insulted at all by it anymore. I just feel a bit of pity for little old TzaTza, who actually has some reasonable points to make, if you can pick them out of all the bile and spleen.

Couldn't agree with you more, Turkle

Trip quipped, ''Permaculture is probably the first and only actual paradigm shift away from the agrarian way. It's horticulture. Completely different on every account.''

One of the largest modern global industries supplying the vast majority of human beings worldwide by changing organisms from the inside out is an entirely different ball game than Permaculture, or the "Agrarian Way".

In other words, Permaculture and the "Agraian Way" are relatively close together, Modern Ag being so radically different than both, that to say that Permaculture is the REAL paradigm shift seems rather odd.

Permaculture is a dirt-under-the-fingernails cousin of th Agrarian way, all the way, all day, and all night. It can trace its origins through English Gardening, as I mentioned, and from there it is a short hop to the Shire and an Oat-munching Stallion named the "Agrarian Way". Permaculture hangs with the Amish compared to Modern Ag. Modern Ag shows up at the party by landing its massive spaceship on the roof. Permaculture, like those Agrarians, have a 1-to-12-point ethical sermon. Modern Ag has the voluminous scholarship of trillions of dollars of scientific research. When Modern Ag wants to visit Permaculture or the Agrarian Way, they come over and knock on the door. When Permaculture or the Agrarian Way wants to visit Modern Ag, they wait in the lobby before taking an elevator to the 21st century. (Along the way they are secretly gassed by scented antiseptic in the elevator).

The way I see it, Permaculture and Agrarianism basically stop at Horticulture. Modern Ag goes much further. It actually FEEDS PEOPLE.

Eh, so what are you going to do about? Wave the 12 principles of Permaculture in people's faces?

There is an ethical argument against your position in that ONE BILLION PEOPLE are going hungry right now- today.

Higher population made possible by Modern Ag results in needing more Modern Ag to fulfill the ethical principle of keeping people from starving to death. It may be that we are in a vicious feedback loop.

Its as if Modern Ag is following a single ethical precept:

1. Feed hungry people.

I don't know, what kind of I-Ching Kung-fu is that where 1 ethical principle blows away 12 others?

Like it or not, getting in between people and food on principle is an exercise in futility AT BEST.

The world and its people are LOCKED IN to a rollercoaster ride and and there is no stopping and no getting off. So enjoy your horticulture, God knows that it is a relatively benign activity. But I know of nothing coming, not Peak oil, not the economy and certainly not politics that is going to stop the Modern Ag train. Buy stock, my good man, buy stock.

I just can't stand the impression I get from people who think Permaculture is going to be a factor. Its not even going to be a blip.

' The Kennedys always raved about their "Commitment to Public Service" but wasn't it really just an incomparable lust for power?
[if folks havent noticed folks are basically programmed to be..uh,...selfish]

yeah...remember the peace corps?
bomb vietnam and send the young out in the name of 'internationalism'..peace..baa..peace corps bunkum
that monster said
'support any friend, fight any foe'
or whatever as he jsutifievietnam etc

"The heroic individual "producer" is a right-wing myth that has no basis in fact."

Who said anything about "heroic individual producers" moron. I said there are producers and non-producers. (You, by the way, falling into the latter category.

While they had help from countless people some of the recognized producers of the world would include, Thomas Edison, Henry Ford, Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, the Packards, Mr. Benz and Mr. Daimler, Hewlett and Packard (different Packard), Hess, Vanderbilt, Rockerfeller, Carnegie, shit the list goes on and on and on.You are a moron, tukey-lurkey. Please shut the fuck up. (I said please)

' I challenge you to find me any similarly decrepit and ghettoized city in a European country. I am not aware of any'

uhh.....albania? [that muslim mess]
yugoslavia..esp after CFR members albright and clinton bombed it.
venice italy
havent been to UK but friends there say its been in a deep depression for years so its turning into a 'pontiac michigan with lotsa mosques'
is only a matter of time !

"Those are the kind of activities that constitute a lively and healthy political dialog."

Setting cars and neighborhoods ablaze in France and illegally shutting off oil supplies is "dialog". Duuhhhh..OK if you say so, moron.

turk the jurk:
'Oh, and I didn't know that the European countries are "crumbling."
clearly you dint look at or comprehend my youtube links of last week or the week before!!!
he who laughs last laughs best

how many trees [and what type] would i have to plan to have 0 carbon footprint?
im vegetarian, local ist , city living, no car, no pets...........................

"Turkle must be more correct than Tzatza."

Not really tzatza just tires of turks spewing about the wonderfulness of the socialist agenda. Want something you can't afford? Why just take it. No need to work and earn...just take. You know, like Obama is attempting to do. It never works but you can bully people about for a while and it hasn't been tried on Obamas level since FDR, so what the fuck...its worth a shot.

Europe is a big place with a wide range of different countries.

Find me a similarly decrepit and dysfunctional city as any US rust belt metropolis in, say, Germany, which TzaTza claims is "crumbling."

asa asa/ notyrmommy etc...6x..id say 2 or 3x that!

Cyberspace is chock full of angry people ...
maybe yr one of them?

and if ya wanna know about europe read oct11 Newsweek..and read between the lines..
theres a 2 page spread on the lamaphobia thats just 'ragin thru europe' [gasp, horrors]..the article starts with info on a movie thats the most popular now over there thats based in the real life 1996 beheading of 6 monks in [algeria?] but the point of the article is NOT that islam is bad but that WE, citizens, christians, law abidiers and or xenopobbbuists are bad. however if you consider the facts offered in the first paragraph of the assinine article the christians unhappiness with their muslim neighbors is all to well deserved, hence negating the point of the article.
again see my you tube links posted here in the last month THEN decide where europe is and is going!

turky-lurky sez:

"The problem is that in the current system the people at the top of these social structures siphon off most of the gains, leaving the bottom with table scraps."

Hey, jerk weed, so the guy sweeping the floor at Disney World, is just as productive as Uncle Walt? And Walt should not be better compensated (while alive) than the Snow White impersonatress, greeting the kiddies at the Magic Kingdom entrance? You really are a cartoon Marxist aren't you? What a fucking cliche.

Trip gave lip: "Gardening and farming ARE unfortunately about saving ourselves in the face of the collapse, of cities, of infrastructure, of money, of other people."

Look, I'm not a subscriber to the collapse theory. Take a look around, man. Nothing is collapsing. Looking at the figures, the reality is America is a food-exporting nation with a buttload of energy. Oil isn't going to make any difference on the price of fertilizer. And even if everything 'collapses' the US. has the command and control to feed its people- easily. With a socialist state almost inevitable at this point it is virtually assured, in my mind, that people will not have to starve in the US. We will have the energy and the organization to get food to people.

It is the marginal populations, the current 1 Billion-plus folks who don't get enough to eat every single day that are in real danger.

As far as producing for personal consumption, I have only this to say: self-employment is a bitch. We live in a distributed economy of labor and productivity. If you want to knit your own shirts, that is your choice. But farming is degrees harder.

If people did REAL cost accounting (and who does that with their hobbies?) they'd find that the time and energy they spend on those commodities they're producing is exorbitantly high. In the case of food, you really have to take into account a Total Production to Consumption ratio. Add it all up in time, sweat, and actual dollars. Add up all those pounds and calories. Now compare it actual consumption... do you come anywhere close? No, you don't, the vast majority don't, and that just goes to further proof that Permaculture, gardening, or even hyper-gardening is not in Ag's ball game at all. It doesn't even make the bench to carry water.

Aesthetically, the result of most people's attempts at PermaHortiGardening is a sorry patch of weeds after a few years, maybe a few boxes of marginal veggies. Hardly a Garden of Eden or Cornucopia.

I think Permaculture is cool. I think it can be performed at a high quality. It is like Bonsai. Something to be appreciated in and of itself.

It is something the suburban parcel-holder can occupy their free time with in the sun. But I think it is also a simulacrum of a more primal need to be in contact with nature. And in terms of that, Permaculture remains a pantomime of a Post-PreAgrarian understanding of man in the world.

What was lost is authentic existence within nature as a part of it. Now instead of wild animals we have domestic pets and zoos. We have domesticized landscaping. Instead of free reign we have private property. I think the need fulfilled by Permaculture is the same need fulfilled by Horticulure, landscaping, even walking the dog or picking flowers: A Preindustrial comfort in just being an animal among familiar symbology- the parts of the world in which our senses evolved to relate to.

That doesn't stop the Juggernaut reality of our population increasing and the industries that serving its needs. These things exist side by side, and will exist into the near and farther future.

"maybe yr one of them?"

Says the guy who is constantly posting about how the evil Muslims are out to get him.

Helen's erupted, "You seem to think that genetic engineering, fossil fuels, plastics and all the other acoutrements of high-tech intensive gardening/farming will always be with us. You even think we will live under climate-controlled domes!"

That is as true a collection of statements as I have ever heard. Thank you for following along closely.

Its not so hard to imagine us living under climate-controlled domes. It is not so different than the current reality in many places. All the populated places in the world with uncomfortable climates are absolutely hell-bent on creating air-conditioned living and working spaces.

In the future, on current trajectories, I see the condition "uncomfortable climate" spreading across most of the populated world (in that the climate change will heat up the longitudinal areas where humans like to live).

I see climate change chaos as well as adaptation. Its not going to be a surprising sequence of events. It will be based on simple, pre-proven concepts, like electronic climate control and urbanization.

I'm describing what will likely happen, not what I think should happen. I'm describing what will happen based on conventional perspectives. I would love it if everyone got out of our cars, but its not going to happen.

"When the fossil fuels are too expensive to product anymore, none of that stuff is going to be readily available."

That is 100 years or more. There will always be devices like artificial bottlenecking and rationing to get us through the worst patches without bringing the system down.

"But Permaculture will ... will feed the people who do the work when industrial agriculture no longer exists. The days of 1% of the population doing the work that feeds the other 99% will be over and everybody will have to get their hands dirty of they want to eat."

No, that will never happen. Think about it. Agriculture will always have customers. Its like Google saying, "Well, good luck everybody, we aren't going to build any more server farms. Program your own websites." Markets with this kind of capitalization only disappear when something equally massive comes along to take its place fulfilling its function. And as you mentioned, Permaculture will never produce surpluses and therefore never take its place.

Asia says, uh: "how many trees [and what type] would i have to plan to have 0 carbon footprint?
im vegetarian, local ist , city living, no car, no pets..........................."


Simple question, simple answer: on average, 478 trees planted per year (low estimate 156, high 800). And then they would have to live for about 40 years. Less, if you are frugal in your consumption, more if your consumption is at more conventional levels.

The question is how do we get the government to legislate this change, because the lumpenprole ain't gonna do it (no time, resources, land or experience to do so effectively)- and no immediate capital benefit.

Problems are that carbon offset vegetation is frequently planted in unstable countries.

I seem to have really hit a nerve here.

So a guy who raves on about the "socialist agenda" and makes FDR out to be some kind of bully and villain says my views are a cliche. That's pretty funny stuff. I could have plucked anyone at random out of a Tea Party rally and gotten the same tired old John Bircher rhetoric.

Marxism argues as a core belief that the means of production should belong to the people. Traditional communist dictatorships controlled the production in their societies, from bread to tractors. I am not arguing that at all nor would I. I also don't believe in a dictatorship of the proletariat. I am a firm believer that democracy is the best system of government available to us. So I am not a Marxist, not even close.

You'll see above where I state that large segments of the economy (most of it) are best left to the private sector. The production of goods and basic services is such an area. The government provides standards and laws to govern these areas, but you wouldn't want them overly involved in, say, designing and producing cars.

I am making arguments based on what has actually happened in history. Governments are among the most powerful forces shaping society and history. It is simply a fact. You can rail against "socialism" all you want but the fact remains that democratic governments are there to provide for the needs and wants of their constituents. What we actually have is a hybrid system of capitalism and socialism. We need both for society to function properly. It is a symbiosis. You mention Henry Ford. Along with Henry Ford's autos, the government designed and paid for the interstate highway system, which is the envy of the world. The private sector would never have been able to provide the organization or funds to do this. It takes two to tango.

Social programs are based on basic principles of compassion, that people should at least have enough to survive in their society. This means redistributing some income from others so that these people get what they need simply in order to survive day-to-day (unemployment insurance, food stamps, health care, etc.). It doesn't mean that I think Walt Disney should make the same as his janitor. Again, you're arguing pure straw man, which is typical of you. But the reason that the janitor makes a decent living wage in the first place and isn't being paid pennies is because the government has stepped in time and time again, to establish minimum pay, labor laws, etc.

I'm not sure what kind of society you envision where social programs are rolled back to the pre-New Deal era and the government does not attempt to address some of the inherent imbalances that arise out of a capitalist system. Do you really want to live in such a society? You may claim that you want this, but I don't think you'd be all that pleased with the results.

America already has an enormous population of destitute people, in prisons, on the streets, etc. Apparently you'd like to see more of this by rolling back the social safety net that does exist.

Or maybe these lazy people should start "producing." Well, what should they produce and where should they work? How are they going to get a job with even highly skilled laborers going 6 months or more without a job even with a dedicated job search for the whole time period? Unemployment is at 10% and higher in certain job sectors (17% in construction).

I feel that your views are too simplistic. You want to bend the world to fit some kind of Social Darwinism that exists only in your own mind, because as a model for society it fails miserably.

Jim, I don’t buy the idea that loss of credit will cause the end of civilization. All students of economics know that profit is the holy grail in a capitalist economy. Those enterprises that make good profit don’t need any of that damn credit. Removing the influences of credit will be a great cleanser. How is all that credit working out, it’s really helping, isn’t it?

Con-men and grifters need credit, the productive and successful don’t.

"The question is how do we get the government to legislate this change..."

We don't because it is unnecessary. The climate changes. Always has. It did long before man bothered to show up.

It will continue to change, regardless of what me may try and engineer. Relax, enjoy. Have a beer if you find the climate too hot or a coffee if you find it too cool.

Want something you can't afford? Why just take it. No need to work and earn...just take.
==

Tiz more complicated than that, T. The big boiz, they don't work. You don't know this, 'cause youz da little peoplez. The big boiz, take and take and take and take. The whole system is arranged for them to take and take and take. And did I mention, they don't work. Their lawyers work. Their politicians work. Their judges work. Their corporate managers work. Their MSM propaganda priests work. But the big boiz, they don't work. They collect rent. And plan how to collect more rent.

Now, I'm no pinko commie, but neither am I stupid or ignorant. So, I want my money back. All of it. And I want the gov mafia that works for the big boiz, I want their legs broken. And da big boiz, I want them identified, starved and tortured and hunted down like animals. And when captured, I want them worked to an inch of their death, and then I want them and their families and their relations, burnt alive in the same nazi death camps they financed for a final solution for my family and kinsmen.

I hope that clarifies the issue for you, T.

"You can rail against "socialism" all you want but the fact remains that democratic governments are there to provide for the needs and wants of their constituents."

Needs and wants? You are pretending to be this stupid. I want a Ferrari. Gimme, Obama, I WANT it. Get a clue, moron.

Responsible government should provide for the truly need and as such only reluctantly and only as long as necessary. As for providing "wants" you have got to be shitting me.

Marxism argues as a core belief that the means of production should belong to the people.
==

No, it doesn't. Marxism argues as a core belief that the means of production should belong to the State. There's a big fscking difference. Unfortunately, that subtlety often escapes the morons that push marxist propaganda.

"Tiz more complicated than that, T. The big boiz, they don't work. You don't know this, 'cause youz da little peoplez."

OF course you are a big boiz, so you know all about it. (Riiiigght.)

I got news for you clownie, I know a lot of people who make a shit load of money. They work like fucking dogs. Their kids hardly know them and they often end up spending oodles of dollars in their later years trying to undo the damage to their health that their workaholic habits inflicted on them. I'm not saying their work habits should be emulated or admired I'm just saying they work and I would venture they work MUCH harder than you.

They work like fucking dogs.
==

That's what they are. But they're not the people I'm talking about.

"But the reason that the janitor makes a decent living wage in the first place and isn't being paid pennies is because the government has stepped in time and time again, to establish minimum pay, labor laws, etc."

Not is isn't you moron. Minimum pay has been shown time and again to retard, job progress. Every time it is raised it crowds out the very people it is "designed" to help.

This from a WSJ article last year:

"The September teen unemployment rate hit 25.9%, the highest rate since World War II and up from 23.8% in July. Some 330,000 teen jobs have vanished in two months. Hardest hit of all: black male teens, whose unemployment rate shot up to a catastrophic 50.4%. It was merely a terrible 39.2% in July.

The biggest explanation is of course the bad economy. But it's precisely when the economy is down and businesses are slashing costs that raising the minimum wage is so destructive to job creation. Congress began raising the minimum wage from $5.15 an hour in July 2007, and there are now 691,000 fewer teens working.

As the minimum wage has risen, the gap between the overall unemployment rate and the teen rate has widened, as it did again last month. (See nearby chart.) The current Congress has spent billions of dollars—including $1.5 billion in the stimulus bill—on summer youth employment programs and job training. Yet the jobless numbers suggest that the minimum wage destroyed far more jobs than the government programs helped to create.

Congress and the Obama Administration simply ignore the economic consensus that has long linked higher minimum wages with higher unemployment. Two years ago Mr. Neumark and William Wascher, a Federal Reserve economist, reviewed more than 100 academic studies on the impact of the minimum wage. They found "overwhelming" evidence that the least skilled and the young suffer a loss of employment when the minimum wage is increased. Whatever happened to President Obama's pledge to follow the science? Democrats prefer to cite a few outlier studies known to be methodologically flawed."

Shut up Turk. You are a M-O-R-O-N. You spew shit, and call it sugar. You "facts" are laughable. You don't want to go down the FDR as savior road or I assure you I will hand you your head. Shut up now before you hole gets deeper.

I've enjoyed this blog more since I quit reading Asoka's posts. His endless cheerleading and promotion of government BS statistics as facts made him join my Scroll Past list.

However I recently (accidently) landed in the middle of his recent nonsense:

"...the murder of animals."

This required a response.

A human cannot murder an animal (nor can an animal murder a human).

The word murder means a human killing a human.

You can't just change the meaning of words to support your case.

Enough, I've got to go buy some more meat.

Puzzler, you do not consider it murder because you do not believe animals have equal moral status to humans.

To murder is to kill intentionally and with premeditation, which is exactly what is done by humans against (mostly) defenseless domesticated animals.

I am not attacking anyone, much less friend Tripp. I am simply stating that I am personally offended by the lack of respect for an animal's RIGHT TO LIFE.

I am a RIGHT TO LIFER when it comes to animal rights. Until I manage to get legal standing for animals, you can all continue to murder them with legal impunity. That will all change once the courts rule that animals have a RIGHT TO LIFE.

And, to Tripp, and E. and others: please stop with the amateur psychoanalyzing and diagnosing schizophrenia. It is really unbecoming.

"Puzzler, you do not consider it murder because you do not believe animals have equal moral status to humans."

That is because they DON'T.

"That will all change once the courts rule that animals have a RIGHT TO LIFE."

Sweet Jesus, people (at the early fetal stage) don't even have a right to life. Now I'm supposed to get excited about the rights of hamburgers? Me no think so.

Correlation is not causation.

I meant basic needs and wants like having enough food, having a roof over your head, and getting medical care. Turkle never said TzaTza is entitled to a Ferrari. There you go again with your straw men.

It's not just my opinion that killing animals isn't murder -- it is the definition of the word murder.

Just like you can't take the word "coffee" and use it for a drink made from chocolate.

Why do you suppose one can never perform an autopsy on an animal?

It's because the word "autopsy" means cutting open a dead human to determine cause of death.

P.S.: Do you know the word to use when that process is performed on a dead animal? WITHOUT LOOKING IT UP?

"You don't want to go down the FDR as savior road or I assure you I will hand you your head."

That is just another inane threat, which you are full of today (everyday?).

And, yes, I would like to hear your argument about FDR, minus the unnecessary and childish name calling. Unlike you, I do not become incensed and vindictive when I hear opinions that are different from mine. Hit me.

Yes, you're right. I think I even knew that...but isn't the idea that the state is composed of the people (proletariat)? I don't even pretend to understand most of Marxist theory.

By the same token, there are many people who work even harder than your rich friends, at two or more low-paying jobs, sometimes doing demanding physical labor. Likewise, there are plenty of people that don't work all that hard and make plenty of money. I fail to see the point you're trying to make. Working hard is not necessarily going to make you rich, and you can easily get rich without working that hard (e.g. if you had invested in Apple or Microsoft stock a few years back).

Strike "easily" from my above statement.

Damn, I wish this thing had an edit button.

Well, rereading your post, you do make an interesting point about the minimum wage and teens.

Of course, you picked one sentence out of about four paragraphs I wrote and riffed on it. Oh, well.

Big government is necessary, because given the chance people will exploit the fuck out of each other. They will lie, cheat, and steal or worse. They will turn other people into their slaves. They will form corporations where the workers make pennies (sweatshops) and they take all the profits.

So is government a bully? Sure it is. It is THE big bully that keeps everyone in line. It monopolizes and uses violence so that people aren't constantly threatened with violence and exploitation from each other. A weak central government usually means that the society is in the process of disintegration and lawlessness or has already gotten there. (Somalia anyone?)

I want one example of a country with a weak central government that has actually been successful in recent years. You can't name one because those countries don't survive or they are constantly on the edge of anarchy and failure.

Every rich country that we consider successful in the world has a strong, centralized government that takes a significant chunk of its people's wages in tax income. I'm so fucking sorry, but that's just how things work. Now go back to your Tea Party and talk about how we should all be cowering in fear about what's going to happen in November (I still haven't figured out exactly what).

"Of course, you picked one sentence out of about four paragraphs I wrote and riffed on it. Oh, well."

No shit. One sentence of yours can produce volumes of truths to your misconceptions.

It's so funny to hear the Tea Baggers talk about how they hate socialism.

But will they give up their SS benefits? Nope. Many will even take them early and draw more than they put in.

Will they take government Medicare when they reach the right age? Of course they will.

Are they all gung-ho about the bloated, overly expensive US military? Yup, apparently so.

Are a lot of them from states that receive more federal dollars than they generate? Why yes.

What people mean when they say we should cut "Big Government" is the parts of government that they don't plan on using or consider important.

""Gardening and farming ARE unfortunately about saving ourselves in the face of the collapse, of cities, of infrastructure, of money, of other people.""

Before we get to the copious Kool-Aid, let me point out that I didn't actually say this.

Seems like a fair place to start with something of this nature.

You might be right about a few things or have some bits of knowledge to share. I accept that. Part of why I come here is to put my positions out there and see if they stand up. Some do. Some don't. I welcome the discourse and oftentimes my views will change over time.

Whereas picking an argument and never deviating from it or acknowledging that you might be wrong about some things, as you are wont to do, is the behavior of deluded extremists and zealots. You'd fit right in with the Taliban. I hear they are conservative, have everything figured out, and never change their views on anything either.

What is my big "misconception" oh brilliant one with all the answers? You seem to be beating around the bush on this one. Come right out and say it. Am I just another deluded Commie Liberal following the socialist agenda?

Having read the various newstories about fraudulent foreclosures, I am indeed concerned that our fragile economic recovery is about to receive yet another blow. The report that Bank of America is now resuming foreclosures after a weekend hiatus is proof that the banks are a bunch of greedy hucksters (I know no one will argue with that) but between the CEOs and Wall Street, they have set up a situation where soon no one will be able to afford their products or services. I suspect we may be in danger of the very rich becoming the masters of all, the middle class completely disappearing and the rest of us becoming landless serfs. And that scares me plenty. How do we get the very rich to stop outsourcing jobs and to stop hiding funds in offshore accounts, trust funds and other tax evading treachery. Hang their attorneys? Shoot their accountants? Appealing to their better nature seems unlikely as greed apparently blinds the rich to everything else.
So I will pay off my mortgage early, continue to harvest and eat home-grown veggies and eggs, stress the importance of education to my children and remind everyone that no man is an island. If we are to survive, then we need each other. Some to farm, some to build, some to teach, some to heal, etc. Being a gun-totting survivalist in a grim post-apocaplytic scenario does not appeal to me. And I will vote in these upcoming mid-term elections for those I think will keep this thing called Democracy together even if its does increase the deficit or cause the rich to pay higher taxes.

You have misunderstood the usefulness of the pissant. He's safe as long as he's on the internet. However if the long emergency really does manifest itself, he will finally become useful as mulch. The way he runs his mouth, someone is bound to see his true potential.

You should look up the Citigroup plutonomy memo mentioned in Roger Moore's "Capitalism: A Love Story". What you describe has pretty much already occurred.

Soylent TzaTza?

"Big government is necessary, because given the chance people will exploit the fuck out of each other. "

"Big government" is merely a collection of individuals. If individuals "exploit the fuck out of each other" a collection of them will only multiply the effect. When an individual "exploits the fuck" out of another, only one ends up being exploited. And as a matter of recourse the exploited can choose not to re-engage with the exploiter. When an entire government acts in a similar fashion, ALL of the governed are exploited and until a law is changed the exploited have nowhere else to go.

"Every rich country that we consider successful in the world has a strong, centralized government that takes a significant chunk of its people's wages in tax income."

Hitler, Mao, Stalin, Tito, Castro, etc. etc. all ran "strong centralized governments". So much so, that they raped, pillaged and murdered millions of their own countrymen and were able to do so with little opposition as their power was centralized.

When the United States was founded, the Federal Government had much less power than that of the individual states. Regarding his take on state rights, Thomas Jefferson wrote,

"Resolved, that the several States composing the United States of America, are not united on the principle of unlimited submission to their general government; but that by compact under the style and title of a Constitution for the United States and of amendments thereto, they constituted a general government for special purposes, delegated to that government certain definite powers, reserving each State to itself, the residuary mass of right to their own self-government; and that whensoever the general government assumes undelegated powers, its acts are unauthoritative, void, and of no force: That to this compact each State acceded as a State, and is an integral party, its co-States forming, as to itself, the other party....each party has an equal right to judge for itself, as well of infractions as of the mode and measure of redress."

Over the years the erosion of states rights and the ceding of those rights to the federal government have brought us to where we are, a nation governed by federal busy-bodies, who are far removed from the needs and common purpose of those who reside away from the "centralized seat of government". Their localized issues fall on the deaf ears of the centralized bureaucrats, who (in their minds) are far more adept at anticipating the needs of the yokels in the hinterlands. Even though many of these federal-istas have never bothered to visit those hinterlands.

"That which governs least governs best." is as true today as when it was first uttered.

"Ay, ay cap'n. Of course the nuggets of wisdom from your chum encrusted lips is profound insight.

"But will they give up their SS benefits? Nope. Many will even take them early and draw more than they put in."

Well I guess your loving Strong Centralized Government should not have promised what they promised. But promise they did. And now you want people to do what? Not take the funds that they were forced to put into a known ponzi scheme over their working lifetimes? You really are a simpleton. You really think you posited some sort of horrific action on the part of S.S. recipients? Sheesh you are an idiot.

"That which governs least governs best." is as true today as when it was first uttered.

--

That is a transparently stupid statement, regardless of who coined it. The government that governed least would not govern at all. It wouldn't exist.

turkle,

There's no difference between all these gov mafia "isms". Socialism, communism, fascism, it's the same scam. Behind it all are the same people who control our reality matrix. The same people behind the people behind Michael Hudson or George Soros or Jamie Diamond, etc. The same people behind the blue and red one party system. The same people who constantly engage us, through their propaganda priests, in a false dialectic.

"That is a transparently stupid statement..."

Not really. But a stupid person might conclude so. In other words one who likes to be "governed".

The statement allows that some form of governing, in a civil society, is necessary. But it is a recognition that "governing best" is not fucking too much with the populace. It rules out the "nanny state" of which you seem so fond. No surprise there. Babies tend to love their nannies.

I realize I have been obtuse on addressing some points concerning Permaculture. Holmgren's principles should definitely be applied to public land use in urban and suburban areas.

I didn't mean to suggest that Permaculture wasn't needed. It is certainly needed at the Civic level in massive amounts. I think it could produce real standard of living increases and cost savings. The bottom line is that the removal of leaf-blower and lawn-mower civic planning is a good thing.

I just don't think it will bring anything to bear on the task of food production. Certainly some of its tenets should be applied to conventional Ag.

There's no difference between all these gov mafia "isms".

So there was no difference under Stalin's iron fist? I mean as opposed to life under FDR or Churchill? Uh huh.

I don't buy the argument that strong central government is inherently bad across the board. Nor did I state that the power of the state should not have limits.

If you look around the world today, by the standards of the 1700's, ALL governments are big and centralized, so you'd be hard pressed to make any kind of generalizations about whether that is a bad or good thing. Strong centralized states are the only ones that exist. It is also unfair to pick the worst of the worst (China under Mao for example) and generalize this to all centralized, strong governments. The world has changed since the Constitution was written. Population density is far higher. The world is a lot more complex and technological. Very few people live on farms as they once did, and everything is very interconnected. Hence, the role of government has changed. Wanting the government that governs "the least" to me is perverse. Do you really want to live in a society like that? You claim you do but I really don't think you'd like what resulted.

The idea that these dictators you mention were evil because of their big government structure is wrong. The problem is no rule of law or citizen's rights. The dictator's word is the law. There is no Constitution in these situations. The dictator is the state.

A strong central government works fine within a constitutional democracy. That is why this model is quite typical for successful, developed countries around the world. What countries with weak central governments have been successful recently? Name one of decent size.

And, yes, I think federal government is bloated when compared with the state governments, which are starved for money. I'd like to see more power return to the state governments.

Good post btw. You see, it isn't necessary to end a post by calling someone a fucktard.

"The government that governed least would not govern at all. It wouldn't exist."

Sheesh is this a stupid statement. How is LESS governance NO governance. These posts must be someone posing as turkey-lurkey. Even he isn't this stoopid.

So there was no difference under Stalin's iron fist?
==

No, there's no difference. They're all variations on the same theme. And you can add monarchism, corporatism, religionism, imperialism, etc.

It's all the same idea. The idea being that of systematic centralization of power and wealth in the hands of the gov mafia.

It's gratifying to see you respond to your name, pissant, Pavlovian response indeed. You're easy to train. You seem to be stuck in that 4th grade playground still. How amusing that you would attempt to converse with adults with that grade school attitude. It's still kinda fun to prod you once in a while. Make me laugh some more. Like I said pissant, mulch.

"I just don't think it will bring anything to bear on the task of food production."

Then you're not doing a full accounting on the real costs of agriculture. Mother Nature won't make the same mistake I assure you.

"If you look around the world today, by the standards of the 1700's, ALL governments are big and centralized..."

True and all, excepting perhaps China find themselves in a horrific set of straights. And the reason? They have all over promised and under delivered and as a result their economic houses are floundering. France promised plenty of holidays, short working weeks and retirement at age 60. So now, by trying to raise retirement to age 62, the country is at a standstill. It doesn't matter that the present system can't work (once again because of MATH) the nanny state promised a bunch of goodies it never had a prayer of providing and damn it, the workers of the world are going to pitch a fit. Well go ahead, pitch a fit, Frenchy. But it ain't going to change the reality of your situation.

Ditto much of what we have been promised in this country. Through no fault of his own, when Obama entered the White House for his first day of work, we were already in deep doo as a result of entitilements. (SS, Medicare and Medicaid) On our present course by 2050 these entitlements will take the entirety of all federal revenues. And yet, as bad as things already were, with a faltering economy (forget whose fault, the economy was tanking) Obama proposes one of the biggest federal boondoggles in the history of boondoggles, national healthcare. Go fucking figure. More goodies form a country that can't deliver on what has already been promised.

"Wanting the government that governs "the least" to me is perverse. Do you really want to live in a society like that? You claim you do but I really don't think you'd like what resulted."

And that is because you must like to be governed. You must like to have people, most of whom you will never meet or know, making up the rules as to how you should live your life. You are the perfect puppet for the puppetmasters pulling your cute little strings. But you are so blind that you don't even know you have strings. They occasionally pat you on the head and promise you nice cakes and tea and you believe them. In fact you think it "perverse" to have it any other way. Wake the fuck up, laddie. That government which provides everything...is a government that can take everything. And in the twinking of an eye.

Fossil fuels made us, and they will break us.
==

What percentage of fossil fuels actually goes towards growing food? I would think it's not even 5%, am I wrong?

"Permaculture was in no way involved in the Cuban food crisis. In no way. Unless you think forced labor and dictatorship is Permaculture."

Permaculture was DIRECTLY involved in Cuba's transition. Google it. It's in every damn link almost. Permaculture is also on the ground in Haiti, and Mexico, and Israel, and Jordan. And we're not terribly concerned with your imagined limitations of what we can accomplish.

"You seem to be stuck in that 4th grade playground still. How amusing that you would attempt to converse with adults with that grade school attitude. It's still kinda fun to prod you once in a while. Make me laugh some more."

Now let me see. You get pleasure prodding someone that is stuck in "that 4th grade playground still." (Nice grammar, Shakespeare.)
and you are supposed to be the adult in the room? 'Kay, whatever you say, Chumley.

Working hard is not necessarily going to make you rich, and you can easily get rich without working that hard (e.g. if you had invested in Apple or Microsoft stock a few years back).
==

Or had the ability to backdate options. Which is basically what all the insiders do. And they do it with impunity.

"What percentage of fossil fuels actually goes towards growing food? I would think it's not even 5%, am I wrong?"

About 17%. And I would assume that most of the other 83% is tied up in the rest of first world commerce. Unlike some, I think peak oil and energy descent are only a problem for the first world, the electricity and car using world...minus a little population dieback in the third world, once Heifer and Oxfam move out.

Guess what genius? To invest in Apple or Microsoft you need money. Excepting those that inherit money, most must work hard for it. Furthermore, for every Apple and Microsoft there are a thousand (probably, more like a million) companies that will not be successful. So, in order to make money investing in A or M a "few years back" you not only had to have some extra (hard earned) money but you had to be able to do the hard, slogging homework that would lead you to the conclusion that these were good companies to invest in.

Of course you, with 20/20 hindsight make it sound like anyone could invest and profit from these two stocks. (By the way, how much money did you make investing in them? Just as I thought.)

As for backdating I believe the personage of Martha-fucking-Stewart served a little time for this very practice. So much for your theory of impunity.

For fucks sake does anyone on this site excepting myself have a fucking clue as to how this world works (and doesn't work)?

tripp,

You have a reference to that 17%? It seems very high. Does that include "food miles"?

Hi E.

Great comment from last week about CS (computer programming).

Perhaps I can make you weep some more: http://whrl.pl/RcrGZT (Telstra is Australia's main ILEC).

Or what about Virgin prepaid cellphones ... go into recharge history and it only gives me the last one or two recharges. We then ring up to have the cellphone unlocked and are told "you haven't spent $80. Please recharge another $65".

Or what about GroceryWatch/Fuelwatch? The task is simple: take the prices that are inside the supermarket computers, and display them on the web. Rudd No Can Do. Fuelwatch is even worse:
* the software is already written, the servers are already humming, the data-links (fuel retailers) are already there, and a section of the public are already using it here. But Rudd couldn't do it for the rest of Australia.
* Various user-driven (volunteer) websites have sprouted up (example, about 8 others exist) giving fuel prices at many service stations. If they can do it why not Rudd?

As another submitter to the recent ACMA inquiry said ...
I am a great fan of the intelligent use of technology. -- Jonathan Borwein.
I agree with him entirely. Most of his submission, and most of the other submissions, point to problems with poorly implemented technology (the rush to earn a dishonest buck comes a distant second).

Getting back to Eleuthero's point: most of the problems come back to IT (CS) students & graduates who can't cut code, and/or IT managers with pointy hair that force systems into production months before they're ready (or shoe-horning 3rd party solutions, sold by IT salesmen making a dishonest buck, into the mix).

Eleuthero, a question: are you going to sign onto an open-source project? It would be good to get back to computer programming, the way it should be, no?

Nick.

For fucks sake does anyone on this site excepting myself have a fucking clue as to how this world works (and doesn't work)?
==

And you think we need you to parrot the standard idiotbox propaganda lines as to how to world works or doesn't work? Get a fscking clue!

"The bottom line is that the removal of leaf-blower and lawn-mower civic planning is a good thing.

I just don't think it will bring anything to bear on the task of food production."

Do you understand the amount of land you're talking about? And how fertile that land tends to be, simply because people tend to settle where the soil is fertile, and cities tend to grow from settlements?

Removing "leaf-blower and lawn-mower civic planning" implies a replacement landuse. What did you have in mind? More soccer fields? We're talking about 10s of 1000s of acres of the most fertile soil in the country. To think that acreage like that wouldn't have an extremely significant impact on the food chain is short-sighted. Again, see Havana, Cuba. They produce something like 90% of the city's food inside the city limits. Tell me that isn't bringing something palpable to bear on the task of food production and I'll tell you to peddle it elsewhere. And permaculture arrived to help guide that transition at the beginning. I talk to people fairly regularly who were part of that. I took a course from a guy who is in Mexico doing similar things right now. I keep tabs on chatter between permies on the ground in Haiti reconstructing the destroyed ecology there.

The reason you don't hear about it is because permaculture isn't good for the economies that control the information. In fact it's quite threatening. Every therm of energy we don't use undermines the current power structure just a little bit more. Why would they help us?

You can practice permaculture without a yard of land. If you walk or bike to a market and buy food grown in your area, where before you drove to the supermarket to buy Chilean asparagus in winter, that's permaculture. If you salvage materials and share labor with friends, where before you pulled the solo mission sponsored by Lowe's, that's permaculture.

The only limits to what can be accomplished with permaculture are in your head.

"Con-men and grifters need credit, the productive and successful don’t."

Well said. The borrower is the servant of the lender. Credit creates debt and thus oppression.

http://www.martinarmstrong.org/files/Nice%20Try%20but%20No%20Cigar%2010-9-2010.pdf


Just ask the 2+ million people housed as a result of the rule of law in our nation's prisons.

You sure about that?

Admittedly I speak of Australia and New Zealand: prisons are crowded, escapes occur, and judges (having some concern about crowding) sentence heinous criminals to months, not years, in prison - or they hand out fully suspended sentences.

Every time the Government tries to fix it (Truth in Sentencing, abolishing suspended sentencing, increasing penalties, mandatory sentencing) the judges simply ignore it and continue with their old practices.

One drunk driver who killed got fined $100. Plus a $20 victims' fund levy. There was no mention of licence suspension.

They don't even touch shonky builders.

I should mention land title (the subject of this blog entry) ... the system is quite robust in Australia and New Zealand, apart from the rare case of someone falsely mortgaging someone else's property. So the US will have to deal with that pile of horse shit on its own.

Nick.

"I want one example of a country with a weak central government that has actually been successful in recent years."

Of course you have to limit it to "recent years". You dare not consider a time when people were self-governing and independent.

'Are a lot of 'them' from states that receive more federal dollars than they generate? Why yes.'

'THEM' > 'the enemy' you and harry belafonte may have much to agree on.
Consider this, many in those greedy states get little or nothing from their state govt despite the state bein on the take.
and...the government which governs the best is the government that indeed governs the best.

is it that those on 'the left' promise much and when those not on the left want some of it they get demonized by the media?

thanks..im flabbergasted,
i figured maybe 1000 trees total...not 500 x 80=
40,000
and how tall? what variety? how many acres?

sorry mika it dont fly...
soros is the man behind the curtain, the puppet on stage is obama [or palin or bill or hillary].

How is LESS governance NO governance.

Hear hear.

What I think we need to do is ask "what does less governance look like?" (or "minimalist government", to use my term).

I think it is government that lets the population go about its honest business without interference. Whatever the government does has to support the goal of "honest" business ... in other words, putting together a framework that enables things to run smoothly.

This means it has to ensure there's enough money printed so the economy can work (and in a more modern economy, it has to ensure the banking system is trustworthy). It has to deter (eliminate?) dishonest behaviour. It has to make the various phone companies adopt technical standards so that we may call one-another. And of course, it has to ensure that land title systems are robust - hint, hint.

A minimalist government has to put frameworks in place to let it all run smoothly.

The next question is ... after all the frameworks are in place, what extra stuff should a government engage in?

Possibly they should build roads (otherwise you'll get a shambles of toll-roads), and perhaps it should lay on some public transport (otherwise nobody would do it on entirely commercial terms)? What about subsidies or other action to prop up phone/internet service in rural places? How much or how little social security should we have?

That's where the real debate about Government should be, but unfortunately, we've got governments who don't even get the minimalist stuff right, but engage in trade&commerce or other wasteful fluff.

Nick

Asoka said: "Just ask the 2+ million people housed as a result of the rule of law in our nation's prisons."

Kiwi Nick said: "You sure about that?"

Kiwi, I think there has been some misunderstanding about what I mean by rule of law. I am not making any statement about justice. I am not saying anything about whether those two million should be in prison or not.

I am making a statement that they ARE in prison because there is no societal breakdown of the kind CFN drools over, and secretly wishes for, and thinks is just around the corner. Societal breakdown is not even close to happening.

As evidence, I submit the rule of law is intact. By that I mean the prisoners' sentences are being enforced. The prisoners are not free to walk out of the prison because the rules don't allow it and the guards and the whole "correctional" system is intact, no where near collapse, and those 2+ million prisoners will continue to serve their sentences.

much of a food dollar goes to packaging and at this point almost 50% of USA food dollars are spent away from home.

TURKLEBAGGER:
'It's so funny to hear the Tea Baggers talk about how they hate socialism'
have you considered asking one of 'them' to define the term?
can you?

CORRECTION:
the whole "correctional" system is intact, nowhere near collapse, and those 2+ million prisoners will continue to serve their sentences.

If any are released due to budgetary considerations, the releases will be orderly, systematic, and determined by established criteria which are based on potential threat to society... because the rule of law is intact.

Socialism is state control of the means of production. It doesn't exist in the United States.

The closest the USA comes to socialism is the Veterans Administration and the US mommy military that provides everything for its baby soldiers, including beds, bedtimes, and babysitters. And clothes, food, housing, transportation, haircuts, training, spending money, medical care, permission to go outside and play during recess (R & R), as long as the baby soldiers come back to mommy military at the time they are instructed to return.

sorry mika it dont fly...
soros is the man behind the curtain, the puppet on stage is obama [or palin or bill or hillary].
==

If you really think a high-profile jew clown nazi turncoat with a few billion dollars in a hedge fund is the man behind the curtain, you need to check your shoe size for a proper IQ fitting.

Most Americans use socialism to mean "Government programs and services that I don't like."

"You really think you posited some sort of horrific action on the part of S.S. recipients?"

Does not compute.

Yeah, TzaTza, you know everything there is to know about how the world works. That must be why you can't seem to keep your kunstler.com accounts for more than a few months without getting banned, because you're just an epic genius.

Whatever.

"not fucking too much with the populace"

I had no idea you've thought so deeply about these complex issues of governance.

If all you anti-government types hadn't noticed, between the tail end of Bush, and the first year of Obama, the Fed injected about a trillion dollars into the private sector economy to rescue it from its death throes. This included bailing out major financial firms and purchasing GM (basically).

So if the private sector is so great and should be doing fine on its own with minimal governance (as you all seem to claim), why did the government feel the need to do this? Shits and giggles?

Seriously, you want to talk about how the world works. Get a freaking clue already.

Turkle said: "the Fed injected about a trillion dollars into the private sector economy to rescue it from its death throes."

Isn't that kind of a tacit admission that capitalism does not work on its own? Capitalism needs big government to survive.

As you have already pointed out, the countries providing a superior quality of life for its citizens are democratic socialist countries that know how to tax and spend for the benefit of all.

We need more taxation because the country is broke. I like the 1:10 ratio idea for a minimum to maximum salary ration, with 100% taxation on all income that exceeds 10 times the incomes of the lowest paid employee.

We need more spending on infrastructure development because the unemployment rate is too high.

More taxation. More big government spending. Obama is not delivering on either of those.

CORRECTION:
I like the 1:10 ratio idea for a minimum to maximum salary ratio, with 100% taxation on all income that exceeds 10 times the incomes of the lowest paid employee.

Last year Pat Quinn, Illinois governor released 1700 prisoners in secret, because of a money crunch. You could make the argument that this was orderly, because the Governor knew what was going on, but it looks terrible, and his opponent in the election has brought it up in his ads.

My question is: what happens when the money crunch gets worse than it is?

When you continually bail out broke private businesses, you never get rid of the incompetence or the corruption, all you do is subsidize it. And why should the big banks be bailed out, when the guy with the gas station who went broke isn't? These banks aren't any more important than anyone else, they just think they are.

SOMETHING worth reading... Koch and friends want to make sure the future is theirs... until it is no one's.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/10/19/koch-industries-republican-donors-palm-springs_n_769028.html?igoogle=1

"Anyone who wants to join the tribe please drop me a note" Count me in. I can't help you with the fertile females, but I can carry a club and sing on key for those long nights around the campfire.

ctemple said: "My question is: what happens when the money crunch gets worse than it is?"

More prisoners will be released.

77% of the brothers in prison are nonviolent offenders who shouldn't be in medium and maximum security facilities to begin with. Releasing them would not cause any major problems in society.

An analysis of recent United States Justice Department data showed that over the past 20 years, the nonviolent prisoner population has increased at a rate much faster than the violent prisoner population, and that 77% of the people entering prisons and jails were sentenced for nonviolent offenses.

Since 1978, the number of violent prisoners entering America's prisons doubled, the number of nonviolent prisoners tripled, and the number of persons imprisoned for drug offenses increased eight-fold.


Good points about the "exploratory spirit",
LBendet. As usual, you put your finger
right upon the difference between today's
student and those of yesteryear.

As you so astutely pointed out, the students
of yesteryear almost instinctively knew that
a teacher is merely a CATALYST and a DATA
PRUNER who can direct one to what is wheat
and what is chaff.

However, to discover how the "wheat" works,
once it is revealed, one must do private,
personal EXPERIMENTS. In my discipline,
this means that just having one's ass
plastered to a seat during lectures is a
light year from sufficient. To discover
how operators, functions, and idioms work,
one must write exploratory code. One must
"tinker". One *must*.

The student of today is so narcissistic and
passive that it is quite literally as if they
expect the teacher to be an alchemist. If they
are "lead", the instructor must do ALL the transformatory work to turn them into "gold".

Of course, this death of the exploratory spirit
goes hand-in-glove with the death of respect for
an active intellect. After all, can't we just
look everything up in Wiki ... thereby obviating
all need for data, knowledge, and wisdom retention
in our own brains?? I've got nothing against
Wiki but the SYNTHESIS of knowledge is the taking
of disparate facts and combining them in new ways.
Wiki won't help anyone do this.

E.

"thanks..im flabbergasted,
i figured maybe 1000 trees total...not 500 x 80=
40,000
and how tall? what variety? how many acres?"

Wrong questions. The right questions are "how do I cut this figure in half? And then in half again? How can I go from being a parasite to a blessing on the landscape?

Jesus, we're never going to get this.

"77% of the brothers in prison are nonviolent offenders who shouldn't be in medium and maximum security facilities to begin with."

And, like these guys, the other 23% wouldn't be nearly the problem they are if they were eating an appropriate menu of mineral dense whole foods.

Studies show recidivism rates decline sharply when prisoners are fed organically. All of our problems will take care of themselves when we stop living on a balanced diet of oil, coal, and natural gas.

"As you have already pointed out, the countries providing a superior quality of life for its citizens are democratic socialist countries that know how to tax and spend for the benefit of all."

These also tend to be countries with economical mass transit systems and local markets selling wholesome local produce.

These are most likely the more important points.


Thanks for the link, MD, to the Armstrong
article. Statistically, it is hard to argue
with his idea of the ruthlessness and
invasiveness of government. Government
in 1950 soaked up 12% of total GDP to
keep the cogs greased. Now, it is rapidly
approaching 48% from 42% just five years
ago due to TARP and Federal takeover of
whole industries.

The only bone I would pick with the Armstrong
article is that some kind of "renaissance" is
going to happen where the people combined with
private enterprise somehow magically resist,
revolt, and steal back autonomy. I don't see
it. Armstrong does not even posit a mechanism
by which this will happen.

If it does ... you and I won't live to see it.
For now, as Armstrong says, government, esp.
the Judiciary branch is jailing people for
petty tax evasions and driving unregistered
people on Federal property. Government
rapaciousness IS out of control. However,
I see no end in sight of the iron-fistedness
of government.

Indeed, the Attorney General of the USA vowed
to fight all the marijuana legalization
initiatives with rhetoric worthy of William
Bennett. How can this be?? The will of the
people is feckless now. The Judiciary will
simply jail whom it wants to jail and for
whatever violations they find in fine print.


E.


Offshoring is a perfect way to destroy the
middle class because it was precisely the
manufacturing jobs that involved SKILLED
labor as opposed to the dopey labor in the
"service" industries.

It's no coincidence that the USA is careening
toward autocracy (the IRS is now more predatory
than ever before, for example) because we either
have "neoliberals" or "neoconservatives" both
of whom seek to eliminate freedom. Neoliberals
eliminate freedom by prohibiting all public
rhetoric that's controversial and the neocons
eliminate it by creating perpetual wars which
exploit the poor and uneducated by hoodwinking
them into the armed forces.

That's your choice now: Politically correct
neo-Marxism or a government run by the Defense
Department. Both sides win if the middle class
goes away because they've always VOTED and
they've always been wealthy enough to avoid
political strong-arming.


E.


I think you're looking in the rear view
mirror when you talk about the "success"
of European style Socialism and, yes,
I've been lately ... twice.

Paris now features more street violence and
public incivility by an order of magnitude
than I ever remembered. I could give about
ten anecdotes but I don't want to bore anyone.
My friends whom I visited in Paris and
Neuchatel, Switzerland are all alarmed at
breakdowns in public decorum, defacing of
property, and so on. It's changed drastically.

The dictates of Brussels which, through the
establishment of the EU with its absurd 1600-page
"Constitution", has established a Socialist
"Uber-State" with attendant and constant
imbalances in credit markets, labor markets,
and housing markets. The EU was basically
the end of individual political and economic
sovereignty of member states and you can
expect the recent worker riots to persist
for years and years.

Socialism tends, like Social Security, to be
a Ponzi scheme which works very well when
birth rates and wealth are on the ascendancy
and which implodes when there are too many
retirees per worker and too much debt.

FDR-type programs can't be implemented in our
culture now because there aren't enough skilled
laborers, too many retirees, lower birthrates
(unless you're Mexican), and insufficient
industrial concerns to make the raw materials
for the "pick and shovel" projects Obama has
spoken so frequently of (which have been
carried out at a snail's pace).

You cannot compare our population's demographics,
skills, or birthrates to 1935 and say that
Socialism would be an unqualified success.
This is not 1935 and we are a VASTLY different
people.


E.

"In fact, authoritarian agriculture is more along the lines of the future I see us facing. It will be more like the FDA taking over Monsanto though."

Yes, yes, we get it, bigger, faster, more. More fascist marriage of state and corporation (Mussolini's definition, not mine), more gigantism, more #2 field corn to rot our brains with. It's a pretty picture you paint.

Just keep in mind that it was the tiny proto-mammals running around under the feet of the dinosaurs that made it through the K-T boundary.

"You cannot compare our population's demographics,
skills, or birthrates to 1935 and say that
Socialism would be an unqualified success.
This is not 1935 and we are a VASTLY different
people."

Not to mention that this period was cast in a context of massively increasing energy availability. Not at all the same reality we have today. Doesn't matter how many commenters here believe in fairy tales of soldiering on, the physics of contraction will be, and is already, very different than the physics of expansion.

This is the realm of systems ecology, not political science, or military strategy, or public relations campaigns. Hmmm, I wonder what Bustin J's background is.

E.,

Neoliberal is not left wing politically correct updated form of liberalism. Instead it describes free markets without regulation or barriers to entry:

Wikipedia
Neoliberalism is a market-driven[1] approach to economic and social policy based on neoclassical theories of economics that stresses the efficiency of private enterprise, liberalized trade and relatively open markets, and therefore seeks to maximize the role of the private business sector in determining the political and economic priorities of the state.

Good day to you all CFK'ers....

Another apt piece by himself this week, but do the US masses really care any more? Are they finally on the verge of a collective switching off wid dah cruise-control, quitting the Prozac-n-porn-on-demand-sports and blonde module girlie teeth-n-smiles delivered parochial news yawn?

Dare I say are they at the dawn of a mass ascension cognitive awakening? Nope - not from what I witnessed in behaviour in AZ a few weeks back - definitely not!

Well in France the 'slaves' are no longer prepared to take it from the 'masters', but then they have a history for that, (but I fear they know not what they do)the thin veil fabric of western based normality derived via JIT policies means once you disrupt and rip the diesel/petero fuel supply equations, soon after the Supermache shelves remain empty...

And this time around will the phrase “Let them eat cake!”....hit the empty kiddy tummy spots?

And the current salivating words across the UK city streets is now all about QE2 (and no not that new one leaving Southampton full of retired pensioners) No, no my dears keep up! Tis the B-o-E/ECB deals about to spawn another financial markets and banking bonus disconnect - from the rest of main-stream society – just as with post 2008 phase 1 did. Greed is good after all, as the mantra of red-braces equipped Gekko informed!

The rich have it rigged to keep getting richer,but what will be left to play with come 2020+ when the climate food disruptions become more severe, so that the upper-classes start Chilean miner like thinking that maybe now's a good time to start eating the recently deceased...?

But back to the present - they'd better start buying oil futures soon - there's a glut building up from over supply, cause finally the swelling global poor slaves just can't get credit enough to keep $80pb flowing,no really they can't we need it at $20 or lower again to get growth going...

And just think what this costs China and India in sheeple subsidies, with the Fed set to further devalue the dollar - ouch this hurts like hell as the months drag on! (Do we really have to keep bailing you guys currency wise internationally? Should make the meal post first nite G20 meet Korea interesting) *sniggers*

Clues of the collapse come from repeat prescriptions that are now stacking up on the shelves of Walgreen’s as poorhouse sheeple (even if they've got some form of basic health insurance) cannot keep up with the inflationary costs of doing the simple basics like heat, eat and house themselves, and maybe keep driving a little bit to the crumbling part-time slave wage job prospect they've maybe luckily held on to so far....??

And I wonder how long this two tier system can continue, you know the tiny % who keep on with the the NetJet, yacht and canapés party, while the masses slide down writhing just how much further they have to rot - before the penny/cent finally drops?

How costly does gas, and that saturated fat tweaked Taco have to get, while degrading in quality along the way, that Mr & Mrs diabetes aided spine finally cracks, and the rebels finally storm the gates screaming “Enuff's enuff"...

"NO WE CANNOT TAKE ANY MORE!!”

Me thinks wherever you are in the OECD's now - apart from maybe Norway - the clock is tick-tocking ever more loudly...and many no linger can chow down the bull.

And as we're just days away from Guy Fawkes Firework night here in the UK, you could rightly say... “When this baby goes bang, tis gonna be a bigge!”

(Be seeing you)

"Turkle said: "the Fed injected about a trillion dollars into the private sector economy to rescue it from its death throes."

Isn't that kind of a tacit admission that capitalism does not work on its own? Capitalism needs big government to survive."

No it didn't work. It is a tacit admission that this administration remains clueless as to the workings of the private sector. Period.

"I meant basic needs and wants like having enough food, having a roof over your head, and getting medical care. Turkle never said TzaTza is entitled to a Ferrari. There you go again with your straw men."

Hey moron. You used the term "wants." Now above, you list needs. There is a fucking difference. Language matters. And by the way, there you go again with your, "There you go again with your straw men." nonsense. Could you please try and get a few new cliches in your repertoire? You sound like a fucking sophomore standing outside her "Ruling From the Left" seminar (elective-no grade) trying to impress the really cool, rad professor. Get a fucking clue.

"And, yes, I would like to hear your argument about FDR, minus the unnecessary and childish name calling. "

No way fuckweed. You do the homework. Try a little heavy lifting on your own. You spew shit that is backed by vapor. Go find out something about FDR. Discover for yourself that WWII got us out of the Great Depression, not FDR. (Who was so close to being a fucking dictator that a spooked Congress passed the 22nd amendment, limiting Presidential terms to two.)

" I don't even pretend to understand most of Marxist theory."

This is an odd admission as you "pretend" to understand a whole host of other issues about which you remain totally clueless.

"So if the private sector is so great and should be doing fine on its own with minimal governance (as you all seem to claim), why did the government feel the need to do this? Shits and giggles?"

Why did the government feel the need to do this? Holy shit. You can't be this stupid. Because (moron) that is what governments do. They meddle in the affairs of all those they can meddle in because they are so much wiser than those in the private sector. Once the government jumps into the private sector with its brilliant set of fixes, the private sector is no longer "private".

Think about it genius, the Obama government orchestrated a government controlled "bankruptcy" of GM. In effect they told investors (bond holders) "Beat it. The bonds you bought are worth zero. Now go home and shut up." They injected tax payers money to prop up a failing company for one reason...UAW votes and support.

In effect, if GM could not survive of its own accord, it should have been allowed to fail. That is a "free market." What Obama has given us is anything but a free market. Now shut up because your stroll down M-O-R-O-N lane is getting borrrrrrring.

Another snippet for Turkey-Lurkey regarding how well those lovely "centralized governments" are fairing.

"Chancellor George Osborne is to slash welfare benefits by a further £7bn as he sets out the biggest spending cuts since World War Two.

Up to 500,000 public sector jobs could go by 2014-15 due to the changes, according to the Office for Budgetary Responsibility."

story here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11579979

"President Obama and Democrats have proposed a $250 rebate to seniors who are not getting a cost-of-living increase in their Social Security benefits for the second year in a row, but critics are suggesting the promised pay-out is merely intended to sway the senior vote -- and likely won't even succeed in that, with the midterm election two weeks away."

Shit this bunch are morons. "Hey, here's a fucking check. Vote for us." (No one will notice how transparently phony this is, will they?)

"President Obama plans to appear on Comedy Central's "Daily Show" shortly before the midterm elections, a senior White House official tells CBS News, in what will be his first appearance on the show since becoming president."

Isn't he quite kicky and hip?

Hey tata, you f*kweed, f*ktard, asswip*, moron, get a clue: we need free salaries, we need free houses, with CHEAP RENTS, enough with this capitalist, free market BS. We have huge excess capacity in the world, we are rich enough to end fighting between each other, we need huge governments and corporations hiring billions of people and giving them huge salaries for free even to do nothing at all, since all work has been automated by robots, because we have all the wealth for everyone you can possibly have.

We need huge projects by governments and private corporations solar system size projects, like trillions of skyscrapers on Venus, trillions of Zeppelins on Jupiter and Saturn, trillions of huge Ocean Liners on Saturn and Jupiter since they are gas - ocean planets and we need to colonize them, and we need huge population growth to colonize the galaxy,

Get a clue right wing thug, stop beating up your poor brother, give him everything for free, you are a christian aren't you ? if you are not you must convert ....

"Hey tata, you f*kweed, f*ktard, asswip*, moron, get a clue: we need free salaries, we need free houses, with CHEAP RENTS, enough with this capitalist.."

Not really, idiot, you need a job. Now get out of bed and go get one.

I started thinking about a "jubilee" in 2007. I do not think that it would stall things too much at all. As soon as people owned whatever it was that a "jubilee" gave them, they would immediately give a mortgage on it. The proceeds would be spent, some would be saved and invested, the consumer would be successfully re-yoked, and western society could begin focusing, for real, on how to reduce birth rates and create alternative food,transportation, and energy sources. Western Society, ala Carrol Quigley, needs to re-invent itself or this could really be a curtain call for the proverbial fat lady. Having said that, I also realize that "it ain't gonna happen." Bankers always have, and always will, view deflation as a "sound money policy."
Thanks for your work Jim, you have been a source of good information for years , and are much more important to the world than you know. I hope that someone in the executive branch of the U.S. gummint follows your drift.

Speaking of trees -

I saw some figures a few years ago indicating the the US might be a "net carbon sink" because we have so much forest land regenerating - land that was harvested of trees in the 1800 and 1900's.

I know there are 10's of thousands of acres in Georgia that are now solid pine forest that once were open farmland, mostly for corn and cotton.
=========
To give some specifics:

Planting rates for pine trees are 650 to 700 trees per acre - I've been involved in this industry since I was a little kid - so if anybody wants facts I can supply them.

But remember the trees need to be thinned at about 15 years, otherwise they become suppressed, making them ineffective as fiber sources or as carbon sinks.

Then the final harvest and replanting is usually made around 30 years.

If the trees aren't harvested, eventually they die, fall over, and the sequestered carbon returns to the atmosphere.

Harvested wood built permanently into a house represents carbon sequestered *forever.*

Kind of ironic to think about a huge mcmansion as a carbon sink, isn't it.

Tripp said: "Doesn't matter how many commenters here believe in fairy tales of soldiering on, the physics of contraction will be, and is already, very different than the physics of expansion."

So, Tripp, since the United States military is the biggest consumer of energy, and you say the physics of contraction rules, when will the US military be grounded due to lack of combustibles? Can't be soon enough for me.

But then, I'm not buying into the physics of contraction argument. I think the US military will not come grinding to a halt due to lack of energy.

Want to make a gentelmen's wager?

Pick a time period: 5 years, 10 years, 15 years, 50 years, and I will bet you the "physics of contraction" will not have stopped the functioning of US imperialist military actions. We will still have 700 bases in 184 countries and will still be bombing,invading, and occupying countries which are not a threat to our national security.

"77% of the brothers in prison are nonviolent offenders who shouldn't be in medium and maximum security facilities to begin with."

Legalize drugs!!!

Let me restate that, since I'm been reading so much TzaTza this morning. Legalize the fucktarded, motherfucking, fuckweeding, asswiping, and moronic drug policies in this Police State of America.

Seriously, TZATZA, you have some good ideas, but I've begun to skip more and more of your posts because of the pointless invective.

=============
And back to you, Tripp, and feeding prisoners. It was not that long ago that every prison in Georgia had a large farm attached. Prisoners grew most of their own food. Those days ended, probably through a combination of "efficiency?," kick-backs, and threatened ACLU action.

Prisoners also (no joking) made all the license plates for the state of Georgia AND engaged in other "prison industries."

Now, I think prisoners mostly lift weights, play basketball, watch TV, and learn how to be better criminals and gangbangers when they get out.

This is another one of those things that we have done in this country where one can honestly say
WE REALLY COULD NOT HAVE FOULED IT UP ANY WORSE IF WE TRIED!!

"But then, I'm not buying into the physics of contraction argument. I think the US military will not come grinding to a halt due to lack of energy."

Asoka, you're wrong. The physics of contraction is real. Oil is finite, coal is finite, uranium is finite. But you can bet if there is some technowonderfuel out there that the US military will claim it for itself first.

You can also bet that the last precious drops of aviation fuel in the world will drip into the bottomless maw of US military aircraft.

This is why I argue for reducing growth in US populations by any legal means necessary - especially including border security.

The more US *citizens??* there are - the worse the US is going to act up when resources really get scarce.

"Why should we wait until things really begin to break down under the population pressure? Why do we have to keep attending to business-as-usual until a high enough percentage of the population has cancer and diabetes? Why are we required to toil away the best decades of our lives in order to retire wealthy, but old and broken? Why do we need to waste the last drop of potable water on the lawn before we start getting rid of some mighty bad habits?" -Tripp

Unfortunately, it's "the way of the world" (in human concerns). Use it 'til it's used up; then cast about for the next wonder-fix. You can see it RIGHT HERE on this h'yar site! "The Folks" do not want to face [an inevitable] contraction, thus ensuring the very worst outcomes of their vast inattention. (This has always been a head-scratcher to me: why would anyone come here, read JHK, and then ADVOCATE techno-triumphalism??)
Deny hard enough, and reality will go away?
Well, I s'pose it's one way to make oneself "no longer a burden on anyone" in the shortest amount of time.

Rational approaches to energy uses (and development of attendant technologies) should have begun in earnest when Carter sounded the alarm. Now we're about [minimum] 30 years behind the eight ball.

Sooooo, your approach is quite sensible...... therefore it will be roundly ignored [by most] until it's far too late! ;o)
I, for one, plan to attempt a survival strategy incorporating a careful listening to natural realities. I'm simply looking to a lifeboat for the kids. Might not work, but while the rest of America has lost its' give-a-shit and is well on its' way to Dumb-fuck-istan, I intend to try doing something.

(Those of the yahoo persuasion can pray, bitch, and vote their way to oblivion, I'll hedge my bets, thanks.)


Ozone said:
"...(This has always been a head-scratcher to me: why would anyone come here, read JHK, and then ADVOCATE techno-triumphalism??)"
All I can think, Ozone, is these folks come here just to be contrarians -- or they haven't read JHK's "The Long Emergency." Otherwise, the attitudes here are a complete mystery!
and Tripp: don't drive yourself over the edge trying to justify permaculture...you're just wasting your energy here. Keep on keepin on. Lots of us believe in what you're doing!

ProCon, since you are a believer in the mythical "physics of contraction," and it's all supposedly based on science, you should be able to predict the year, decade, or century in which this mythical "physics of contraction" will bring the US military to a halt. I'm asking when. Do tell, please.

If you can't, then I question the science of the "physics of contraction" and will keep it in the myth category.

I do understand myths are real stories, but they are not science. Science deals with Reality. I'm giving you the choice of a year, a decade, or a century. That's a lot of leeway for scientific prediction. What say you? Based upon what evidence?

Exactly. I've been reading this clusterfuck thing for years. Nothing Mr. Kunstler has in the past predicted has come to fruition. Housing bubble bursting was supposed to make the market crash and crash it did - all to the benefit of the largest banksters who are keeping the manipulated markets - not "afloat" but absolutely "flying high and higher" instead. Obviously a whole load of folks read this blog religiously and there's a certain attraction to the idea of the world falling apart at the seams. However those financiers and families who control most of the world aren't about to just lose their control. There is no popular "uprising" because there are no leaders. Mass media will ignore any fledgling "movement" to death. They'll let the masses post and email and pretend to think they'll make a difference via the internet (all without any media support or a flesh-and-blood leader). The only chink in the elitists' armor is that their fiat currency is but worthless (and growing worth less by the second) paper "money". Our entire financial system is papered-over with paper money that costs more to print than it is worth as "cash". Talk about a Paper Tiger...

I'm giving you the choice of a year, a decade, or a century.
==

I'll take that, PC.

Five to ten years. And not only will US forces leave those bases, they will leave those bases with their military equipment left behind. Five to ten years. That's also, btw, the timeline on the viability of Saudi oil exports and the viability of the petrodollar, asoka. Five to ten years.

You deliberately missed my point

The US military will NEVER contract at least in the next 50 years. It is the rest of the world that WILL contract.

Therefore, the greater the population of the US, the worse it will be for the World at large.

And what fantasy world do you live in where:
A 224 year supply of coal
A 100 year supply of uranium
A 35? year supply of petroleum

And the global warming/ecosystem collapse these energy sources engender.

Are MYTHS???

Mr. Crow and Thrill,

Mr. Kunstler is a talented writer and entertainer. Many people share his vision of a Planet on an unsustainable track. Many of us come here to clarify and renew our thinking on permaculture, renewable energy, politics, and a host of other things.

Let us not confuse Mr. James Howard Kunstler with the freakin' Oracle of Delphi,

Please.

"All I can think, Ozone, is these folks come here just to be contrarians -- " -mila59

Hey, that's certainly as good of an explanation as any (and better than lots)! I'm going with it. ;o)

Yes, I believe a lot of the "contrariness" ('scuse) is for the fun of blathering, regardless of self-contradiction and inanity. (Add in a pinch of "fucktard-ery" [tm MM] for good measure, and you've got a good stew a-bubblin'! Mmmm-mmm good... ;o)

"I am not making any statement about justice."

Why does this seem to be so typical. Talk about the gift wrapping instead of the gift. "I made the bow myself".

"Seriously, TZATZA, you have some good ideas, but I've begun to skip more and more of your posts because of the pointless invective."

And um, I'm supposed to care?

AHA! Good news, A. Here's a prime indicator of "the beginning of the end".

"So there was no difference under Stalin's iron fist?
==

No, there's no difference. They're all variations on the same theme. And you can add monarchism, corporatism, religionism, imperialism, etc"

Oh for fucks sake. Stalin killed tens of millions of his own people. Ditto Mao. You are an unschooled idiot!

If you're really Israeli, you may have a better perspective on this than I.

I think Iraqi oil was the main reason for that war, and we aren't coming out until it's gone.

I think the stability?? we provide for Saudi Arabia is essential to getting at the Iraqi oil.

And then there's Israel. US paternalism has been a mystery to me since '67 when the Jews showed the world they could kick ass all by themselves.

===========
I'll be interested in your perspectives. But my larger point to Asoka remains unchanged.

The US military will be the LAST part of the global power structure to feel the effects of energy contraction. And the more people in the US, the worse it will be for the rest of the world when truly bad things begin to happen on a Global Scale.
============
And Ozone, funny stuff to Mila. Keep up the good work and keep up the preparations.
=============
And TZATZA, why splice pointless invective into generally well crafted paragraphs. Is there an organization of internet fucktards to which you are trying to gain membership or something?? :-)

I'll be HAPPY to nominate you - no cursing, insults, or invective required.

Just send me the forms!

Oh for fucks sake. Stalin killed tens of millions of his own people. Ditto Mao. You are an unschooled idiot!
==

Right. And the US killed multiple times that figure thru the use wars, cancer viruses, std viruses, poisonous "food", and stress. But you're an ignorant idiot. An ignorant idiot that can't understand that a smiling nazi is still a nazi.

"If you have a problem with animals and humans eating each other, you really should take it up with God."

Are you advocating humans eating other humans? If you accept the premise that humans are animals, you must. I do not.

Taking it beyond the literal interpretation: if humans may {have permission to} farm other humans to "milk" them of wealth, or "pasture" them in ways profitable to "business", or sacrifice them in war when they become too numerous, when they must be culled by some other means because of limited fodder, then no one has any reason to complain about any of these things.

I have certain inalienable rights granted by God because I am a man, made in His image. No animal has been granted these rights. If you accept the premise that you are an animal, you can certainly expect to be treated like one, {ie: NO inalienable rights} by higher {supposedly} lifeforms.

http://adask.wordpress.com/2008/06/17/man-or-other-animals-1/

ProCon,

Please don't confuse infinite energy with finite fossil fuel based energy resources. But even on that front, I maintain you are the one living in a fantasy. I recall reading studies in the 1970's that earnestly stated that we only had ~20-30 years of oil and gas reserves left (based on proven reserves, and the rate of consumption back then).

In other words, we would have run out already.

Needless to say, those predictions didn't pan out. Despite large increases in consumption rates (especially for gas), not only have we not run out, but the estimated reserves have actually gotten larger (as more oil/gas was discovered than was consumed).

This is the result of enormous efforts (and expenditures) to explore, locate, and drill for gas and oil. Now the production peak is still one (or several) decades ahead of us [depending on the rate of increasing demand in China and India], and reserves won't run dry for several decades. My favorite number is 47 years. :)

In the same vein, we continually hear about how the “proven reserves” of uranium will only last ~50 years at current consumption levels. These estimates, however, have an even weaker basis than the oil/gas estimates of the 1970's, since the amount of effort and expenditure that has been put, as of today, into uranium exploration and development is far smaller than that put into gas and oil exploration, even as of the 1970's.

Some have even said that the amount of uranium exploration is more equivalent to that which had been put into oil exploration as of the 1900s (when Western Pennsylvania surface oil was just about all anyone knew about). This is probably an exaggeration, but not to as great an extent as one may think.

But you are free to believe the finite resources myth. Just don't confuse oil/coal resources with energy resources and you can leave your fantasy world and join mine, where energy will never run out. I've been right for the last 40 years.

"and Tripp: don't drive yourself over the edge trying to justify permaculture...you're just wasting your energy here. Keep on keepin on. Lots of us believe in what you're doing!"

Thanks, Mila! Just what I needed today. I'm just not going to sit around flapping my gums about when the shit is supposed to hit the fan, how many Friedman units away it is, who could possibly be at fault, to which of the two aristocratic parties the culprits belong, and how the brown people and Jews did this to us.

Likewise, anyone who thinks that we can continue on a planet-destroying trajectory just to feed more hungry people is batty, and probably running for office. They should remember Wage's axiom, that economy is a subset of ecology, not the other way around.

We're not building a stocked bunker to dash away to when the riots begin, we're going ahead and getting on with the business of radical reduction of energy consumption, so our grandchildren have something resembling a living planet left to them. And more people are doing it all the time. Fun thing to watch.

How many Friedman units away a big enough wake-up call is is totally irrelevant.

Glad you're with me!

That is exactly analogous to your saying:

I have always been in good health and always been alive. Therefore I shall always be alive and in good health.

No human system will last forever.
Realism always wins in the end.

MIKA...if soros is not a player who is? can you name him/her/them?
didnt soros bring havoc to the [ringbat?] 20 or so years ago? was that just a 'blip'?

let turkey join his apologist friends at newsweek
[ the way newsweeks shrinkin it should be news MONTH, that way it can be 200 pages per issue!]

dickey / yousafzai ' turn on the red light'


Newsweek Blames the Victim: Magazine Sees Anti-Islamist ...
Oct 11, 2010 ... In "Turn On the Red Light," Dickey and Yousafzai went so far as to suggest that anti-Islamist politicians like the Netherlands' Geert ...
www.newsbusters.org/.../newsweek-blames-victim-magazine-sees-anti-islamist-politicians-europe- - CachedChristopher Dickey | NewsBusters.org

In "Turn On the Red Light," Dickey and Yousafzai went so far as to suggest ...
newsbusters.org/people/christopher-dickey

Muslim Bashers Raise Europe's Terrorism Risk - Newsweek
Oct 4, 2010 ... Turn on the Red Light. Muslim-bashing politicians may get votes, but they're ... Europe, Islam and Terror Christopher Dickey, Newsweek Paris bureau chief, .... With Sami Yousafzai in Islamabad, Tracy Mcnicoll in Paris, ...
www.newsweek.com/.../how-muslim-bashers-raise-europe-s-terrorism-risk.html - CachedNewsweek Blames the Victim: Magazine Sees Anti-Islamist ...
Oct 11, 2010 ... In “Turn On a Red Light,” Dickey and Yousafzai went so distant as to advise that anti-Islamist politicians like a Netherlands' Geert Wilders ...
mmc-news.com/.../newsweek-blames-the-victim-magazine-sees-anti-islamist-politicians-in-europe-to-blame-for-heightened-threats/ - CachedBlogs on: Stop The Presses! (this time) Newsweek doesn't blame the ...
Oct 4, 2010 ... Newsweek : Turn on the Red Light The State. ... 4 Newsweek story by Christopher Dickey and Sami Yousafzai. In "Turn On the Red Light,". ...
www.liquida.com/blog-news/.../pakistan-al-qaeda-islam/ - CachedNewsweek: Turn on the red light - Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life
Newsweek: Turn on the red light. by Christopher Dickey and Sami Yousafzai Newsweek. The most popular film in France for the past three weeks has been Of ...
pewforum.org/.../Newsweek--Turn-on-the-red-light.aspx - CachedTurn on the Red Light
Turn on the Red Light. Sunday, 03 October 2010 17:51 ... by Christopher Dickey and Sami Yousafzai. The most popular film in France for the past three weeks ...

ok yr forgiven!
socialism = govt 'freebies' theyre not getting.

As I've told you before, you pontificate with an inadequate base of knowledge. Democracy was never supposed to be universal - but only for the qualified. Thus the Founding Fathers believed and the Ancient Greeks as well. And everyone in the chronological middle. It is the Classical Tradition. Of course it's going to be a bloody mess if you let every Tom, Dick, and Jose vote. People nowadays are so crazy that they think illegals should vote. The Democratic Party isn't there yet, but their shining dream of the moment is to get criminals voting - thus locking in on power "forever" - though that forever is likely to be quite short.

The "brothers"? Do you mean all prisoners or just Blacks? All the cops are criminals and all the criminals, saints - right? It's called antinominalism and it's a cognitive disease; a symptom of a poorly functioning hsin or heart/mind. Heaven must be above and Earth below. To reverse this spells misfortune.

You are cunning indeed to answer my easy post (not really) and ignore my difficult one that challenges your whole world view. And I even kept race out of it - just for you!

Henry David Thoreau said that future ages would look on our meat eating the way that we look on human cannibalism. I eat meat but sometimes I ponder his statement and wonder if he may well be right. Thoreau himself went too far and tried to live on just cabbage or something. Some think this mono diet helped bring on his TB. The human body loves diversity in the realm of diet - just not all in one meal.

When asked where he would get his strength from, he would point to the work horse and ask where does the horse get his from. But this is an error since we are not horses and cannot digest the way they do. Substitute protein for strength and the dialogue is made relevant. Smart people often make simple errors because of the fanaticisms of idealism or an poorly working heart/mind. The heart tries to take the place of the mind in other words. You do this more than any other living person on Earth.

Tripp said,
"Then you're not doing a full accounting on the real costs of agriculture. Mother Nature won't make the same mistake I assure you."

Very well spoken. And I feel your pain. Again. Indeed why bother making salient points to the willfully ignorant?

But go ahead Asoka, deny 'til you die. You don't even understand the definition of the word "physics." You have all the brains that God gave to fishbait. ProCon, I feel your pain too.

tzatza is the other one I scroll right through and don't bother reading. And now the genius eightm has joined in with more verbal diarrhea. Lot of scrolling today.

messianicdruid, for pete's sake, what did I say that would make you even remotely think that I was "advocating eating humans"?? Just because humans are animals doesn't mean we are required to eat them. (I can't believe I needed to point that out to you.) I don't eat cats either, and they are animals. Please don't turn this into a stupid religious argument, because I have no patience for that. That being said, in a truly desperate survival situation, in order to stay alive, any one of us WOULD eat the meat of a fellow human being. Including you and Asoka.

"I have certain inalienable rights granted by God because I am a man, made in His image."

No you don't. On four recent, separate occasions, OBama has quoted this passage from the Declaration of Independence:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. "

Each time he used this passage he eliminated the word, Creator. You just think you have rights granted by God. According to Big-O you do not.

ProCon, of course you are right. No carbon-based energy source is infinite.

Carbon-based fuels will run out and eventually the sun will burn out. But long after oil/coal,etc. is gone, and as long as the sun shines, we will have energy. It is up to us to reduce global population, reduce energy consumption, get off the carbon-based energy, and figure out how the permaculturally productive ways to use the sun's energy.

For all practical purposes, solar energy is infinite... humans will probably be long gone before the sun burns out.

"Right. And the US killed multiple times that figure thru the use wars, cancer viruses, std viruses, poisonous "food", and stress."

Sure the U.S. did. The U.S., as a nation killed over 100,000,000 via the means you cite. And of course you have the science and evidence that supports this clap trap? Of course you don't. Because what you claim is untrue.

You are a MORON and probably a liar but sometimes MORONS aren't even aware that they are lying so I'll forgive you that. Now shut up and get in line for your next feeding, idiot.

Why does everything have to be either/or, black or white, left or right? Life is extremely complicated and any solutions to our current issues will probably contain elements of everyone here's opinion.

I am an unabashed technophile, and I see trends that indicate we WILL be able to surmount society's problens, but I also recognize we are at a place where we have strained our resources to the breaking point. So why not adopt a stringent cutback in consumerism, population limits and living a simpler existence; and simultaneously push forward with technological advances that will allow us to use more effectively whatever resources we have left, while pursuing new sources of energy? To do both is not impossible. To not try to do both is a crime against humanity and the Earth.

It's obvious that we are in Afghanistan and Iraq to secure for ourselves a future supply of the remaining oil in the mideast. I can see our government's reasoning on this. But the sheer immorality of war and the murder of innocent people will stain our country's legacy forever. The equal immorality of lying about our true intentions is staggering to me. Starting a war is evil, but at least, if we do, tell the truth and say, "Look, our society is dependent on oil, and we don't want to drastically change our lifestyle, so we're taking your oil. Tough shit for you, but who says life is fair (although we'll pay you a little for the oil we take)?"

At least that's honest.

I bring this subject up because our wars in the mideast have cost us $1 trillion. It would have been far more rational and moral to have not spent that money rhe way we did. We could have taken $500 billion to devise programs to save our own resources and change our lifestyle accordingly, and invested the other $500 billion towards technological progress. And if we still needed more money, we could have cut the annual military budget from the current high 700 billions to the high 500 billions, thus giving us an additional $200 billion per year, or $1 trillion every 5 years.

See, we can have a plan A AND a plan B. You want to be more on the pessimistic side, you got the financial wherewithal to prepare for the bad times; you think we can go forward into a bright future, you got the financial resources to accomplish it. You don't know what will happen, you got plan A and a fallback plan B. Why does it have to be one way or the other? Why can't we find ways to reconcile our views?

It's too bad for me that you are such a rascist pig, because otherwise I could like you. See, your attitude is depriving me of something potentially valuable. Other than the race stuff, I think you have made some correct and interesting comments.

"Carbon-based fuels will run out and eventually the sun will burn out. But long after oil/coal,etc. is gone, and as long as the sun shines, we will have energy. It is up to us to reduce global population, reduce energy consumption, get off the carbon-based energy, and figure out how the permaculturally productive ways to use the sun's energy."

Asoka, you are correct. And I think we have the ability to accomplish all this.

Maybe I'm having a very mellow day, but you are making me very nervous - I'm starting to understand and agree with some of what you say, although you still are too paranoid for me. Who knows, maybe tomorrow I won't think you are paranoid, or maybe I'll think you are, even more so. Isn't life grand?

Trip metered out: ""In fact, authoritarian agriculture is more along the lines of the future I see us facing. It will be more like the FDA taking over Monsanto though."

Yes, yes, we get it, bigger, faster, more. More fascist marriage of state and corporation (Mussolini's definition, not mine), more gigantism, more #2 field corn to rot our brains with. It's a pretty picture you paint."

Its not a pretty vista.

I see nothing but upsides in genetic engineering. Monsanto had to build its business model and research base on #2 corn. That was the dominant food crop. Now its too big to fail. Too many people depend on the calories produced by its technology.

If you want to save soil, how about soilless cultivation. If meat is murder, destroy its profitability by creating algal and fungal alternatives. If farming is an environmental blight, go vertically-integrated production in population centers. If required nutrients are hard to come by, grow microorganisms to produce them at low cost.

#2 corn was just a baby step. I'm thinking of creating food from whole cloth. There is nothing inherently moral about meat production, fishing, or farming anyway. The upside is that non-real food will likely be more nutritious and tasty. What parent is not already preparing their kids to accept it by feeding them Lucky Charms, and other colorful, artificial foods. Kids prefer non-real food to real food already by a large margin. Real food is nothing but slavery to quaint notions revealed to be arbitrary by science and knowledge gains.

Real food will always exist, sure. Farming lifestyles will exist to support it (before it becomes obvious that, in the face of climate change, impossible). But the consumers of such will pay an exorbitant tax on their nostalgia.

A, it's rare that you agree with me in print on here, so I hate to call you on this one, but:

"ProCon, of course you are right. No carbon-based energy source is infinite"

You are incorrect about this. Tripp's gardens, some agriculture, the tons and tons of biomass fuel on my grandpappy's old farm that I'm trying to contract to sell to Georgia Power - all of these and many others are INFINITE and carbon based.

Unless and until we screw up global ecosystems to the point that photosynthesis no longer works.

What you should say to be correct is that "no fossil fuel based energy source is infinite."

TzaTza daBore,

One at a time...

"FDR did not get us out of the Depression. It was WWII."

Telling someone to do their own research does not constitute a convincing argument, unless we're talking about something obvious like the fact that the earth goes around the sun.

Getting back to the topic...WWII occurred from 1939 to 1945. FDR was president during that time period. FDR was responsible was putting the country on a war footing. He was in charge almost to the end of it as the commander in chief. So it is inane to say that he had nothing to do with the end of the Great Depression if you argue that WWII was the cause of it ending. It is self-evident that FDR was the primary mover in American politics during that time.

The burden of proof is on you to provide some documentation that argues otherwise. You haven't. I would actually welcome this, because I'm fascinated with that time period.

And then there was the New Deal, which of course, did nothing to help end the Great Depression, right? I suppose that's what you'd argue, but you'd be wrong. I'm going to go tell you to do your own research on that one (teehee), seeing as how it is completely obvious that government programs did prevent nation-wide collapse during that time period. Many people would not have even survived without them.

"The stimulus didn't work."

Is that right? Since when are you an economics expert Ms. TzaTza? Why don't we instead ask Bank of America and Goldman Sachs and other firms whose bacon was saved by it to report whether they think it worked or not?

Or let's do a little thought experiment. In the alternative scenario where the bailout/stimulus didn't occur, where would we be right now? Better/worse? You would rather have seen most major US financial institutions collapse, I suppose. And that would have been good/better how? It would have been almost unimaginably worse if the financial system had been allowed to collapse. But that would have been better in your mind, because it would fulfill some kind of fantasy you have about the sanctity of free markets.

Again, you make an unsubstantiated assertion arguing against common sense, and then expect everyone to take your word for it (presumably because we are all "morons" or some such).

"German cuts in government blah blah blah Europe crumbling blah blah blah"

Using this as an example is like me pointing at Enron to say that capitalism doesn't work. Businesses and governments make adjustments to their numbers of employees, their budgets, etc. when they have to. It doesn't mean the sky is falling or that capitalism or government doesn't work.

Have governments overreached and gotten themselves into financial trouble? Sure. But so have businesses and corporations.

"needs/wants....government shouldn't provide wants, blah blah blah"

What are the basic human needs? We only require food, water, and basic shelter. That means that in the right climate you could live in a tent and have only rice to eat and water to drink (as is the situation with many refugees). Beyond that, everything is technically a want. So the government does provide for peoples desires, not just what they need.

For instance, the government provides SS so that seniors can have some measure of stability and security in their retirement. A high percentage of seniors depend on SS payments. Otherwise, they could live in their kid's attic or maybe under a highway overpass, but we have decided to go beyond needs and provide for their wants. Is that such a bad thing? Um, no, of course not.

And please don't fucking go off on your Grover Norquist inspired rant about how SS is so evil and wrong. I'm simply using it as an example.

"morons, fucktards, et al"

The more you call other people names, the dumber it makes you appear. Truly intelligent people do not feel the need to boost up their egos by tossing insults at anyone who disagrees with them.

--

That is all. I eagerly await your reply to see what new and exciting invective you are full of today.

Excellent, excellent post, Bill.

The one that included:
"I am an unabashed technophile, and I see trends that indicate we WILL be able to surmount society's problems, but I also recognize we are at a place where we have strained our resources to the breaking point."

Some version of that is why almost all of us are here. Personally, I'm after PV and huge reduction in demand.

Tripp is all about surviving and thriving without electricity after a six out of one population keyhole.

Bustin just stated he is ready for engineered fungal/algal foods - sounds like one of 8M's skyscrapers would be a great place for such a breakfast.

-------
To end with humor; why, WHY is it that I can buy a 50 pound sack of food for my dogs that has all the *stuff* they need for LIFE. (one is 16)
But, to my best knowledge, there is not ONE single food fit to keep a human alive for years at a time - even on an emergency basis?

And think how easy the marketing will be for Bustin's fungus food. Just have a big talking mushroom or slime mold or something with bright stripes like Tony the Tiger. "Fungal Flakes! They're FFUUNNN!"

And referring to Vlad:

"It's too bad for me that you are such a rascist pig, because otherwise I could like you."

Bill, maybe I've missed some things, but I haven't seen Vlad say anything overtly racist in weeks.

And Vlad makes some interesting points that racism, tribalism, whatever may be hard wired into the gene pool - waiting to come out if times get hard.

Soooo, maybe this forum is as good a place as any to explore the issue - as long as it's done politely and factually.

Two things I'll tell the world I HATE upfront:

1. Talk of splitting off Mississippi, Alabama, whatever, into some kind of black colony - that's immoral, impractical, and stupid on every possible level.

2. Invidious or slanderous talk - 'cause where I am in the Old South race is still a powderkeg - and we don't need any sparks around any of the multiple fuses.

"To end with humor; why, WHY is it that I can buy a 50 pound sack of food for my dogs that has all the *stuff* they need for LIFE. (one is 16)
But, to my best knowledge, there is not ONE single food fit to keep a human alive for years at a time - even on an emergency basis?"

You know, that's a great question. If you can do that for dogs (and I have a cat, same thing, we feed it the one kind of food), you should be able to do that for people.

But, thinking about it further,you can consume complete protein by eating a combo of beans and rice. If you analyze what humans need to survive, you could probably concoct a complete food product out of many different foods, and can or bag it. Look at the ingredients on a can of dogfood or catfood, and you can see many ingredients that go into it. Maybe we should market the idea of complete food in a can.

"And referring to Vlad"

Hmmm. You may be right about no rascist remarks. I'll think about it.

I could see xenophobic behavior as a survival mechanism in bad times, but I think that discrimination against a melanin-enhanced group of American citizens is just plain rascist. And the same goes for discrimination against any group of US citizens - they are, after all, our people, so I think that,too, is not xenophobia but just old-fashioned prejudice. Of course, my argument depends on how restrictive you define xenophobia. For example, you could define xenophobia to include behavior against people living on the next street.

Oops, I misspelled racist a few times. Maybe the concept is so repellent to me I can't even stand to see the word in print.

Actually, dog food is perfectly edible. All the ingredients are just natural food, processed. One problem with pet food for humans is the formulation that causes the four-legged animal to be constipated all of the time. Remove the blown-in sawdust and rendered bone and hair parts and I do believe we have Campbell's (slightly less) chunky soup.

I think the progression has already started in the idea that making a successful artificial food is largely about its aesthetic qualities.

Humans are more picky eaters than animals. We require our traditional foods, or we will be unhappy. A Mexican needs his Burritos or he will be depressed. The American needs his hamburger. The Japanese needs his sushi.

It greatly simplifies things to raise the younger generations on artificial foods with colorful shapes and sizes. That way there will be less unhappy aesthetically with the alternatives.

Another proof that we need a strong handed government controlling industries is their tendency to make poor quality, low value products with high addictive potential and high profit margins.

I believe we began allowing such corporations to market directly to kids during the Reagan years.

Man, if I had a time machine, I'd go back to 1982 and bitch-slap that motherfucker.

"Maybe we should market the idea of complete food in a can."

It's people! IT'S PEOPLE!!

"Man, if I had a time machine, I'd go back to 1982 and bitch-slap that motherfucker."

Yeah, and you'd probably be shot before you got within 5 feet of the sucker.

Now about this challenge to my worldview.

Just so with the desire to "help" the world by conqering it - in reality a lust for new markets and the absolute power gained thereby. - Vlad

The US is not all powerful. You don't remotely have the power to conquer the whole world. Never did. Your nukes are as militarily useful as a box of fireworks, and right now, much of your military is a useless pile of expensive high tech junk. Nobody is afraid of it because Americans no longer have the stomach to use it.

Iraq and Afghanistan? They're barely disputes. Canada, a tiny country compared to the US, would lose as many men in a few DAYS of fighting in WW1 as the US has lost in YEARS of fighting in Iraq.

If Americans were the same people as the Greatest Generation, which they are not, if they had the same unshakeable self belief, then much of the Middle East would be a burn mark in the sand after what happened 9/11. Which it is not. We wouldn't right now still be talking about Saudi financing and indoctrination of terrorists, we wouldn't be contemplating an Iranian nuke and worrying about the security of Pakistan's own nuclear force.

American reaction to 9/11, ie taking on Sadam and the Taliban, were not determined by American strength but by American weakness. IMO the real bad guys were Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. But taking them on would have been bloody and difficult. Bush had to salvage something from the debacle so he went after Sadam and the Taliban.

Having said all this, for decades after WW2, the US did the world the magnificent service of facing down communism. The world, whether it realises it or not, owes a huge debt of gratitude to Americans for the millions of man years and trillions of dollars expended not to mention thousands of American lives in Vietnam and Korea.

No matter how bad you think American capitalists are the communists were orders of magnitude worse. I've written in previous posts about co-workers and acquaintances who lived under communism and who were eye witnesses to their depravities so I won't bore you again with it.

IMO the US found itself in position of global power partly through its own designs but mainly because of circumstances not of its making, circumstances created by the actions of other powers. The US became a global player because it had to.

European and Asian powers IMO are at fault for inflicting the two world wars. They are as much at fault for the Cold War as the US and they were mostly responsible for determining the shape of the world as it is today. Nazi-ism and communism are not the inventions of Americans. But they were worldwide realities that Americans could not ignore.

First Nazi-ism had to be stopped. The US did its fair share it getting rid of that devil. There was no negotiating with Nazis, they had to be put in the grave.

So why were US forces kept post WW2 in Europe and Asia? To keep the Germans and Japanese down and to keep the Communists out. After what Germany and Japan inflicted in WW2 I don't think there was any choice.

And Communism had to be stopped but nobody else had the will or wherewithal to do it. For a long time it looked as if the Communists had the upper hand and it looked like they might prevail. So Americans are to be commended for not giving up or giving in.

So maybe the US is guilty of deploying its military worldwide. But for some reason nobody, especially liberals, takes the communist powers to task for doing this same thing. It's only the US that's at fault. For years lone 2,500 ton Canadian frigates were sent to ride herd on battlegroups of 20,000 ton Soviet missile-cruisers and 10,000 ton destroyers skirting our waters. I guess the US Navy couldn't be everywhere.

Britain, France, Germany and Spain were colonial powers but IMO the US was not and is not. Because if it was then my country would have been conquered a long time ago. Canada has everything a ravenous imperialist power could want and would have been the easiest possible conquest. But last I looked there are no US soldiers on our streets, our women are unbothered by swaggering GIs, Americans are buying our goods and services, they are not stealing them. We are the beneficiaries of selling to you guys. We make an awful good living at it. The most important person in Ottawa is not an American general nor the US ambassador.

So having said all this I don't think the American military is remotely sustainable. You no longer have the financial capacity to do it, nor the will. The industrial half of your military industrial complex is on Chinese soil and under de-facto Chinese control. The US will contract as a world power.

You guys are at least ten years late in pulling back. Like the Westmount Rhodesians in Montreal, the commies are gone.

And good for you for leaving race out of it. Just for me? I'm flattered.

Hey, it seemed to work in "Soylent Green". It keeps the population down while feeding the rest. LOL.

"I believe we began allowing such corporations to market directly to kids during the Reagan years."

How 'bout back when Coca-Cola changed Santa's colors from green and gold to red and white to popularize their product with the youngsters?

Not that I don't approve of your bitch-slapping Reagan.

Tripp, look at Liverpool. 8 games played, 19th place, 6 points, in the relegation zone right in the crapper with West Ham and Wolves. Mind boggling.

"...what did I say that would make you even remotely think that I was "advocating eating humans"?? Just because humans are animals doesn't mean we are required to eat them."

Not required, allowed. Even if you personally don't eat them, as you don't eat cats, others may. It's not a religious argument unless a legal {lawful} argument is {by definition} religious. If you call humans animals, you must take the next {prudent} step of advocating against eating them, with some type of justification. You did not, therefore that option remains open.

But, please don't get all balled up in the literal application of this short-sighted paradigm. It is more important, to me, that you deal with the rights mankind enjoys, and should respect and protect, and appear to be pissed-away by calling ourselves animals.

US nuclear weapons can't be ignored. Sure, among rational people, nukes are useless because everyone knows they would never be employed. The problem is the irrational people - they wouldn't hesitate to use nukes if they felt they could get what they want that way. For that reason, nuclear arms are truly frightening.

NETS:
as a vegetarian for 40 years I must comment on yr:
'I don't eat cats'..uh, havent you noticed folks usually shun eating carnivores and like eating grass eaters [lamb,cow,horse]. in the case of fish i assume most fish eat other fish.
also there are culutral prohibitions on eating pets, except in crass areas of asia, where culture disappeared around the time of maos surge to power.
and vlad good for you for pointing out that now that 1 in 4 black males is a felon the DP wants tfelons to have the 'right' to vote [ democrat, of course]

but in a world where so many go to prison for so little their work may just be slave labor!
did that occur to you?
and it happens in russia and china, both of whom have a significant or did have a % of their GDP from slave labor in prison camps...ah the things leftist professors dont tell their students.
mnow with prisons privatized and gone public you can read in Fortune etc about 'investing' in prisons! yikes!!

'rascist pig'
maybe PC is a racist, and hes not good enough for me to label him a 'pig'!

ProCon said: "...the tons and tons of biomass fuel on my grandpappy's old farm ... all of these and many others are INFINITE and carbon based. Unless and until we screw up global ecosystems to the point that photosynthesis no longer works."

All that biomass burning creates a carbon footprint that can be worse for global warming than coal.

SOURCE: http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-20007484-54.html#ixzz12wnwoPCN

You are right that biomass, Tripp's gardens, etc. are infinite. I should have said "fossil-fuel" based energy is finite.

I stand corrected. Thank you, ProCon.

"leftist professors"

Who are these mythical leftists that still think China and Russia are grand benevolent Communist utopias? I didn't think they existed anymore, or perhaps there's like one guy at Berkeley...

Asoka, do you ever READ the articles you cite?

This one said:"measure the greenhouse gas impacts of using biomass, which, in many cases, does not meet claims of being "carbon neutral" over short periods of time."

Read more: http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-20007484-54.html#ixzz12wrcaDbo

SHORT PERIODS OF TIME. It is impossible to argue that burning coal or oil (carbon sequestered for millions of years) impacts atmospheric CO2 more than burning weeds and brush. (Carbon sequestered for many days or months.)

However, we appreciate your retraction and thank you. Wish we could see more of that kind of think on here - or anywhere in *public* life! :-)

Cash said: "But for some reason nobody, especially liberals, takes the communist powers to task for doing this same thing. It's only the US that's at fault."

Today I am taking to task the USA for the countries USA has bombed and invaded and occupied in the Middle East and for having hundreds of military bases all over the world.

I condemned China for its actions in Tibet. I will gladly condemn any communist country that bombs, invades, and occupies other countries the way the USA does.

Please name a communist country that has hundreds of military bases in a worldwide empire. I don't think any communist country has done that. As soon as you enlighten me, I will gladly condemn military adventurism (like Russia in Afghanistan), whether it be USA or communist countries doing it.

However, today it is only the USA that has military bases all over, is actively overthrowing democratically elected governments, invading countries, bombing civilian infrastructure, occupying countries, and building military bases from which to mount military operations in foreign countries which never threatened the USA militarily.

Who else, communist or otherwise, is doing that today? Your claim, "nobody, especially liberals, takes the communist powers to task for doing this same thing" is hollow and meaningless and does not describe anything happening in the 21st century. The USA and Israel have both been on a tear in the 21st century. Get up to speed with the 21st century, Cash.

SHORT PERIODS OF TIME. It is impossible to argue that burning coal or oil (carbon sequestered for millions of years) impacts atmospheric CO2 **more** than burning weeds and brush.

Obviously the word **more** is an error. I was going for *less.*

Bad, Procon, BAD BAD! Go sleep in the basement!

============

And Tripp, while I'm on the subject of how I speak to my dogs ;0) do you mean to tell me that when you have come in from a road trip, the wife and kids are hungry, and you're gonna have to harvest a squash, cut up a chicken and cook for an hour before anyone eats - - That you would not happily open up a can of Purina Human Chow?? ;-)

ProCon said: "It is impossible to argue that burning coal or oil (carbon sequestered for millions of years) impacts atmospheric CO2 more than burning weeds and brush. (Carbon sequestered for many days or months.)"

Do you ever proofread your writing before you post?

You are saying: "It is impossible to argue burning coal or oil impacts atmospheric CO2 more than burning weeds and brush."

Yet you are trying to sell to Georgia Power an energy source that you claim "impacts atmospheric CO2 more than coal or oil."

Your turn for a retraction? :)

you say:
"but in a world where so many go to prison for so little their work may just be slave labor!
did that occur to you?"

Maybe, asia, but not in the States, at least not any more. Prison laundry, mail, cleaning - sure, just no useful work.

Our convicts concentrate on weight lifting, basketball, acquiring prison tat's and becoming better thugs upon release.

You are correct that prisons have become a huge business. I actually owned a little prison management company stock for a while, but sold it out of a sense of moral repugnance. Plus, it sucked as a stock!

Asia, quote below is from you -

"'rascist pig'
maybe PC is a racist, and hes not good enough for me to label him a 'pig'!"

The original "racist pig" in my post was Vlad, as nominated by BeanTownBill. Leave me out of this would you - in either the porcine department or the racine TM department? ;-)

================

And Asoka, since I have observed that you rarely read back "up the thread" for missed posts, I will refer you to my correction of 8:37 WHICH proceeds your request for a retraction at 8:45, by 8 full minutes.

Gotta love that math.

And seriously, I've been sick for the last couple of days due to a bad blood donation or some bad "county fair" food coupled with dehydration resulting from a normal blood donation.

Any, I'm like a lifetime 6 gallon or so blood donor - and this is the first time I've ever had to call the blood bank to tell them to throw out my blood - I'm bummed out.

And I've been on this computer so much that my brain is turning fungal or algal from the inside out. Oh well- gotta do something when you can't play in the dirt! :0)

MIKA...if soros is not a player who is? can you name him/her/them?
==

Old money.

ProCon said,
"WHY is it that I can buy a 50 pound sack of food for my dogs that has all the *stuff* they need for LIFE."

Well you can buy what they SAY is all that dogs need for life, but it really isn't. Dogs are not meant to eat kibble any more than you are meant to eat grass. BustinJ is correct, pet food is a horrific concoction. (Very nice explanation here: http://www.jlhweb.net/BOSS/think.html)

Dogs are meant to eat raw meat. Also for humans, that "complete" protein you get from beans and rice is fine if protein per se is the only requirement you are trying to fulfill. Unfortunately human beings also require other nutrients, in this case specifically vitamin B12, the bio-available form of which is ONLY found in food that comes from animals, (or in pill form.)

And who wants to eat some sort of Soylent Green-Purina-inspired "product" rather than good healthy food anyway?

messianicdruid, humans are biological mammals (animals), period. If you want to argue THAT fact, then I am done even trying with you.

And uh, asia. DUH.


Maybe I'm having a very mellow day, but you are making me very nervous - I'm starting to understand and agree with some of what you say, although you still are too paranoid for me. Who knows, maybe tomorrow I won't think you are paranoid, or maybe I'll think you are, even more so. Isn't life grand?
==

A fair comment. I appreciate your condor. As to being nervous, the US might succeed in crashing the Chinese economy, so that might buy US another five to ten years.

The Great Game: Geopolitics and Oil
- http://goo.gl/pAHi

No, Turkle, you were right the first time.

Marxism, as a core belief, does argue that the means of production should be owned by the people.

What's more, as a core belief, it argues that the means of production should also be democratically controlled and operated by the people.

You were slapped down by the Thought Police, and immediately acquiesced.

You stated a Forbidden Truth.

I'm here to back you up. You were right the first time.

Hey Net,

I guessed I'd probably hear from one or two "better pet food" advocates.

Let's be clear. Wolves evolved to eat raw meat. But they didn't JUST eat the meat. Wolves eat the fur, the vital organs, the intestines and their contents, the ears, the eyes, and most of the bone marrow of anything they kill - bones, too, if they're hungry enough.

As evidence - using coyotes as an example - on many occasions my sons, friends, or I have field dressed a deer deep in the woods. When you do that you remove the carcass and leave any of the *entrails* you do not wish to keep, behind. Go back to the site ONE night later and ALL you will find are the contents of the upper stomach. I'm talking an undigested pile of acorns or leaves on the ground but EVERYTHING else GONE - vanished.
This didn't happen UNTIL we got coyotes in our hunting area.

Dogs are not wolves. They have co-evolved with human society for an unknown (but very long) period of time. During that long period, dogs evolved to eat essentially anything that fell on the ground when humans were hunting, dressing, or cooking game. Which was probably most of the time pre-agriculture.

Networker, I recall a post where you slaughtered your own cows (I think/hope it was you) and fed your dogs a more natural diet to match their evolution.

I honestly admire that. Post-collapse, when I have my herd of goats in the mountains I'll be hoping to emulate it.

My main point about the Purina Human Chow in a 50 pound sack was a *somewhat?* humorous idea as to why there can't be a single food source for humans that is convenient, and relatively healthy.

I wouldn't eat it all the time any more than I wouldn't supplement my dog's feed rations. :-)

Oh, we don't worry about overcrowding here!

Prison construction is big business.

Where I live, we had 2 prisons in 1980. We now have 14.

And communities fight for the right to have one in their very own back yard. Jobs (!) you know.

Private prisons and prison guard unions lobby for more laws, more sentences, more imprisonment, cause there are profits to be made and jobs to be had.

Lock 'em up and throw away the key! As long as someone makes some money.

ProCon, I shiver just at the thought of a Purina Human Chow. I field-dress deer myself every year, and I know what you mean. When I said dogs were meant to eat meat, I meant the whole animal, just like wolves. I agree with you that dogs have evolved to eat more than JUST meat, but it doesn't change their biological need for it, and they are far healthier if they are fed it. I give them table scraps in addition, but never kibble... did you read that link I put up? It is truly horrifying.
I think you are thinking of the Big Dog Discussion we had that day JKH put up his Witch of Hebron excerpt. I was arguing that his story was ridiculously unlikely since any self-respecting farmer would have dogs (not to mention guns for crying out loud. I mean, Samurai swords? Please.) However, you are remembering it a bit differently: I do not have cows, but I do have chickens and I do hunt deer every year. Between my husband and I, we usually put away at least three deer in the freezer and keep the bones for the dogs. When that runs out, I feed the dogs whatever bones I can get from butchers and coops in the area, along with a local farm that raises beef. But not just beef. They would eat the chickens raw too if I let them. I save those for us though, since I like to make bone broths.
And I raise mice for my indoor cats :)

Here is what is happening, E.

When the ruling class began its attack on the working class, they began with the factory workers, and other high school graduates.

The college educated were temporarily spared.

This started the myth of the educated, which continues today.

Whenever masses of people are laid off, (because as EightM points out in his lucid moments, we have WAY more people than necessary to provide for us all) the incantations from the politicians start, "We must retrain, we must educate" yes, these 50+ year old dropouts must now go back to school and learn a marketable skill.

As a nurse, I notice that they pick nursing A LOT as the skill people should learn. Why? To lower nursing wages. Duh.

Anyway, education is now a way to funnel more money to banks (college loans) and colleges (which are starving for state funds).

So people who no longer have no way to make a living borrow money to go to college, and find out that it isn't anymore their cup of tea than it was 30 years ago, when they first flunked out and got a blue collar job.

That's what you're seeing.

Turkle, Vlad, Asia, Mika, Cash (random order) maybe one or two others have had a decent dialog going.

One or two things bothered me about it, and Wage articulated one.

==========
"Marxism, as a core belief, does argue that the means of production should be owned by the people.

What's more, as a core belief, it argues that the means of production should also be democratically controlled and operated by the people.

You were slapped down by the Thought Police, and immediately acquiesced."
============

Ladies and gentlemen, there is nothing, NOTHING, that is inherently evil about communism.

What if the US of A had *won* WWII in the same sense that the Russians *won* it. Won it with 2/3 or our land overrun, something like 80 million!! of our sons and daughters killed, infrastructure destroyed.

What if we did that and were left with an indefensible flat border into a hostile nation, Canada (oops, I mean Poland) AND a brutal murderous dictator - Stalin.

Do you think if these roles had been reversed that "American Free Market Capitalism" might not be quite the benign force for good that most of you seem to assume it to be.

================
Cash/Asia - no point in jumping on me. I'm a proud American (United Statesian??) and to some large extent I'm a capitalist. But I have a strong sense for inflection points in history.

And communism is gone - DEAD - extinct, so the argument should be moot. EXCEPT various political jackasses in the US have conflated Communism, Socialism, minimum wage, and clean streets.

That's why we can't have a dialog about much of anything worthwhile in the US anymore.

Consider Single Payer Health Care - That's socialism...oh HELL NO, it's Communism. Sure it is, Obama's a communist when he's not busy being a Muslim!!!!

Instead we have this free market inspired health care mess that I do believe we'd be better off without.

Holy cow. I think you're going to do fine in the transition...how many mice per cat?

PC said: "I will refer you to my correction of 8:37 WHICH proceeds your request for a retraction at 8:45, by 8 full minutes. Gotta love that math."

Got it! Thanks!

I do love math... and physics in its modern incarnation.

I do not bow down to the "laws of physics", especially Newtonian mechanics, which is at least 60 years out of date and cannot explain things like non-local causation (in entangled photon pairs).

I am not a true believer in the "we are so fucked because of the laws of physics" cult.

BeanTownBill billeted, ""Man, if I had a time machine, I'd go back to 1982 and bitch-slap that motherfucker."

Yeah, and you'd probably be shot before you got within 5 feet of the sucker."

You're right. I'd have to go back before 1982, when security wasn't as tight.

And communism is gone - DEAD - extinct, so the argument should be moot.
==

Really. Is that why the same gov mafia from the soviet era is still gov mafia in power today? PC, no one is gone and no one is dead. The only thing that happened is that KGB now goes by different name.

Tripp, the two cats easily eat at least four mice per day but I have found that it isn't quite enough. Before I started raising the mice I fed them beef and chicken meat from the supermarket, cut up with a vitamin mix (http://rawmeatcatfood.com/) added in to it, so I still supplement with that a little as well. My older cat spent a few years on kibble before I got educated and he really seems to need the vitamin mix. Thankfully the mice have proved to be far cheaper than the supermarket meat, but it is a slow transition.

PC said: "And communism is gone - DEAD - extinct..."

This will come as quite a surprise to the Chinese Communist Party which rules China is successfully utilizing capitalism to destroy the USA for communist party ends.

The realization of communism is the highest ideal and ultimate goal of the Party.

SOURCE: CONSTITUTION OF THE COMMUNIST PARTY OF CHINA (Amended and adopted at the Seventeenth National Congress of the Communist Party of China on Oct. 21, 2007)

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2007-10/25/content_6944738.htm

"humans are biological mammals (animals), period. If you want to argue THAT fact, then I am done even trying with you."

I don't have a problem with the "mammal" label. It is the legal consequences of abandoning certain "inalienable rights" given to men made in God's image, which animals do not possess. Rights not claimed are forfeit.

And, as I said before the results of not having these rights, which must be protected by any lawful government instituted among men, is to allow some men to "farm", "herd", "harvest", "brand" or "cull" other men {or their productivity}.

"How many times have you heard the people described as “livestock on the global plantation”? We tend to dismiss such descriptions as metaphorical–but maybe there’s more truth to them than most would suspect."

Do you believe any man {or men}, to be more qualified, obligated or sanely predisposed to have unlimited dominion over others?

http://adask.wordpress.com/2008/06/16/man-or-other-animals-laws-1/

Networker strung together these words: "Dogs are meant to eat raw meat. Also for humans, that "complete" protein you get from beans and rice is fine if protein per se is the only requirement you are trying to fulfill. Unfortunately human beings also require other nutrients, in this case specifically vitamin B12, the bio-available form of which is ONLY found in food that comes from animals, (or in pill form.)

And who wants to eat some sort of Soylent Green-Purina-inspired "product" rather than good healthy food anyway?"

Most people don't eat real food. The entire state of Hawaii stands up for Spam.

B12 comes from friendly bacteria.

Dogs are generalists. I imagine canines ate all sorts of things. Do wolves lick pee off rocks?

Ah, Prog, prison labor is indeed alive and well in the USA.

http://dandelionsalad.wordpress.com/2008/11/28/prison-labor-made-in-usa/

I was thinking of you tonight. I was at my daughter's house, and brought up the whole privacy thing with her friends, and they dismissed it as irrelevant. One of her friends said that her Dad criticized Facebook's lack of privacy and she said that she told him that she didn't expect any privacy from Facebook.

The one that go me though, was the daughter of two of my friends, both of whom are very radical and anti-authoritarian. Enough so that they went 14 years without electricity because of an argument with the power company.

Anyway, I was talking about another friend who returned from Europe and was at O'Hare, waiting for a commuter flight, when she was flagged by TSA and treated like a terrorist. They refused to answer her questions, refused to tell her why she was flagged, and generally acted like assholes.

I mentioned how stupid it was to flag someone who had just been on a long uneventful flight, waiting for a very short flight, as a "terrorist" risk.

The daughter of my anarchist friends started defending TSA!!

"Maybe they thought she just wanted to kill Americans. Maybe they thought she wanted to blow up a plane over the US"

OMG! I was shocked. Yet another child raising gone awry!

Last I heard most of the valuable assets in the former USSR we sold of or acquired by various former KGB thugs.
And Russia is being reshaped into some sort of free market system.

Maybe the terms don't matter, Mika. They never had communism in the USSR, not according to the definition in the dictionary. They had rule by political bosses, the KGB, and paranoia.

If things had broken the wrong way for us after world warII we would have rule by political bosses, the CIA, and paranoia.

BustinJ, when you say "friendly bacteria" no doubt you are referring to the B12 that the body manufactures in the large intestine. Unfortunately it is also NOT bio-available for us in that location, as it is already past the stage of the small intestine where we absorb such things. Human beings REQUIRE vitamin B12 in the diet, and for it to bio-available to us in the correct form, it MUST come from animals. This is why vegetarians take it in pill form.

I don't know for sure whether wolves lick pee off of rocks, but I would imagine since they are canines it is likely. Dogs are clearly known to be descended from wolves, so why bother trying to argue that they don't require meat?

Messianicdruid, you are rambling. I never said anything about abandoning principles of human rights or any such thing. What ARE you trying to argue? If you want to argue with yourself that's fine I suppose, but the stuff you are saying bears no relation to what I was saying.

A, you say:
PC said: "And communism is gone - DEAD - extinct..."

This will come as quite a surprise to the Chinese Communist Party

I think the Chinese will be more cutthroat capitalist than we are in a decade or so. Plus, they already have the delightful traditions of starving their people and murdering their dissidents - dude, they are way ahead even of our own Chamber of Commerce!

Beyond that, I'll refer you to Mika and let the two of you thrash out this issue.

Looks like deck chairs on the Titanic to me.

Networker said: "Unfortunately human beings also require other nutrients, in this case specifically vitamin B12, the bio-available form of which is ONLY found in food that comes from animals, (or in pill form.)"

Not unfortunate at all. It does not require KILLING animals to get vitamin B12.

Streptomyces griseus, a bacterium once thought to be a yeast, was the commercial source of vitamin B12 for many years. The bacteria Propionibacterium shermanii and Pseudomonas denitrificans have now replaced S. griseus. At least one company, Rhone Poulenc Biochimie of France, is using a genetically engineered microorganism to produce B12.

Linnell JC, Matthews DM. Cobalamin metabolism and its clinical aspects. Clin Sci (Lond). 1984 Feb;66(2):113-21.

De Baets S, Vandedrinck S, Vandamme EJ. Vitamins and Related Biofactors, Microbial Production. In: Lederberg J, ed. Encyclopedia of Microbiology, Vol 4, 2nd Ed. New York: Academic Press; 2000:837-853.


Asoka, go asoka your head. Your vegetarian diet that requires industrial ag just to keep your grocery store full, kills thousands of small animals every time they till, spray, and harvest. You have clearly never once provided food for yourself, so take your sanctimony and shove it where the B12 is made.

All the bad corporations are doing today are the basis for innovation tomorrow. McDonald's figured out how to sell unreal food.

But gubmint Nutrition councils have been pressuring it more and more to provide the healthy alternative. The trend will follow like this:

THE INTRODUCTION OF FUNGAL/ALGAL FOODS
(AT MCDONALD'S)
(BEGINNING IN 2011)

1. You get crap.

2. You get slightly healthier crap.

3. You get a choice: crap OR a real, healthy alternative (which is expensive and unprofitable).

4. You get a choice: two kinds of crap, one is healthy but expensive (non-real) and one is not healthy but cheap (real).

5. You get a choice: two kinds of crap, one is healthy (non-real) and one is not healthy (real) and both are about the same price.

6. You get a choice: two kinds of crap, one is healthy and becomes PROGRESSIVELY CHEAPER(non-real) and one is not healthy and becomes PROGRESSIVELY MORE EXPENSIVE (real).

~NIRVANA~ (2024-206?)

7. You don't have a choice because McDonald's stops carrying any real, less healthy food. The bonus is that the food looks, feels, tastes, and smells just like it did when Ray Croc pulled the first Big Mac out of the deep-fryer.

~RAVE NEW WORLD~ (206?->)

Life under the plexidomes continues as the delicious alliance between Homo Sapiens and Bacteria flowers... Women lose weight by eating (with surprisingly little diarrhea)... Pets are humanity's test subjects, being weaned on to fake food first... by this process we help save the Earth's natural resources and wildlife.

BustinJ, too bad it takes a factory (and all the energy inherent) to make a Twinkie :)

Comrade Wage said: "Marxism, as a core belief, does argue that the means of production should be owned by the people."

We can go to the source on this one. In the "Communist Manifesto" Marx and Engels propose the immediate imposition of a dictatorship of the proletariat. Like Bakunin, I have no idea what that actually means, but I know it causes me to have second thoughts. At any rate, the dictatorship's program includes such items as the following:

The proletariat will use its political supremacy to wrest all capital from the bourgeoisie, to centralise all instruments of production in the hands of the State, i.e. of the proletariat organised as the ruling class; and to increase the total of productive forces as rapidly as possible. . .

[We propose] centralisation of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly. . . .

Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State. . . .

Equal liability of all to labor. Establishment of industrial armies, particularly for agriculture.

Comrade Wage, once you have given the State a complete monopoly on communication, transport, and capital, you should anticipate being its victim.

And only a quibbler could possibly hold that such proposals are not totalitarian. Nod along to forced labor for class enemies, give the state complete control of all production and all communication, throwing in transportation, banking, and education, and you have the very paradigm of a totalitarian state. the explicit guidelines of the Marxist nightmares that devoured the twentieth century.

SOURCE: Manifesto of the Communist Party, 1848.
http://www.anu.edu.au/polsci/marx/classics/manifesto.html

WAGE,
Yeah, the way *most* of us acquiesce to the TSA is amazing. And I'm not talking about just when you're standing right in front of them just trying to get on a plane without a strip search.

I don't know if it is something about *our* child-rearing, or TV, or Regan/Bush paranoia, or Fruit Loop consumption - we'll have to think about that one.
==========
Interesting link about prison labor. Was the figure I heard of "90 thousand" prison workers correct. That seems low considering how many folks we have in prisons.

You and I may disagree on some of these issues. I think as long as conditions are humane that prison labor should be used. It is WRONG if if competes with civilian labor.

It is WRONG if we are stuffing prisons fuller and fuller and HORRIBLE if we're delaying paroles and releases just for the cheap/free labor.

Beyond that, though, it's better to work at something than to sit around, watch TV, play basketball, and lift weights - and honestly, that's all I've ever seen occurring on those few occasions where I've visited a prison.

I'd very much like the old prison farms back, run humanly. Agriculture is a useful skill - most all the food could go to the prison or other state institutions - so Monsanto couldn't moan about the competition too badly.

And was that REALLY asoka who just responded to you as Comrade Wage? Sure could have been Vlad.

Best Regards, Wage. 'Night!

networker assumed, again incorrectly: "You have clearly never once provided food for yourself, so take your sanctimony and shove it where the B12 is made."

LOL! Hard for you to face the truth, isn't it?

If you are not afraid to face REALITY, check out this three minute video by my friend and nutrition mentor, Dick Gregory:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3tf34NzBuk

And support PETA. Love animals, don't eat them.

Asoka, exactly what reality is it that I am not facing? I have Dick Gregory's Natural Diet for Folks Who Eat (or something like that) and I read it back in the seventies. I still think it's bunk. Human beings are not cows, nor should they eat like one.

And before Asoka gets a chance to post yet another senseless, absurd post, I must say good night all!

Networker raved till the morning light, "BustinJ, when you say "friendly bacteria" no doubt you are referring to the B12 that the body manufactures in the large intestine. Unfortunately it is also NOT bio-available for us in that location, as it is already past the stage of the small intestine where we absorb such things. Human beings REQUIRE vitamin B12 in the diet, and for it to bio-available to us in the correct form, it MUST come from animals. This is why vegetarians take it in pill form."

B12 can come directly from bacteria. In fact, that was how the animals got it.

Looking over Wikipedia's entry:

"Due to the extremely efficient enterohepatic circulation of B12, the liver can store several years’ worth of vitamin B12; therefore, nutritional deficiency of this vitamin is rare."

And,

"The total amount of vitamin B12 stored in body is about 2–5 mg in adults. Around 50% of this is stored in the liver. Approximately 0.1% of this is lost per day by secretions into the gut, as not all these secretions are reabsorbed."

So that means that 0.020-0.050mg must be taken up by the system each day.

That means 20-50 micrograms per dose, per day.

"B12 taken in a low-solubility, non-chewable supplement pill form may bypass the mouth and stomach and not mix with gastric acids, but these are not necessary for the absorption of free B12 not bound to protein."

In other words, a 1mg pill gives you about a month's dose of B12. Without animals. Dissolving under your tongue. In Strawberry Beef Flavor.

In other words, we have no reason or urgent need to get it from animals.

Carnivorism is a choice. The difference between man and animal.

PC said: "And was that REALLY asoka who just responded to you as Comrade Wage?"

Yes. I have this idea that in communism the power rests with the people (in mutual cooperation communes) and in socialism (Marxism) the power is centralized in the STATE.

I am anti-socialist, anti-Marxist, and pro-"communism with pacifism" (as Jesus taught communism).

I am opposed to killing people for any "ism."

I am opposed to killing animals for personal survival.

My current experiments with fasting are going really well. I was inspired by reading the book, DICK GREGORY'S NATURAL DIET FOR FOLKS WHO EAT: COOKIN' WITH MOTHER NATURE!

Brother Gregory announced a vow of celibacy in 1981.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/14/theater/14greg.html

Networker blushed, "BustinJ, too bad it takes a factory (and all the energy inherent) to make a Twinkie :)"

Too bad for the suckers who eat them, I suppose. But wait!

"Hostess Brands is committed to implementing sustainable business practices that will benefit our company, our consumers, our customers, our employees and our environment."

Whew. Now we know.

"Hostess Brands does not advertise to children under the age of 12 unless the products meet a strict set of "better for you" product standards, as defined by the USDA's "Healthier US School Challenge". These standards include limitations on calories, fats and sugars."

See? Hostess is a moral, ethical company. And Twinkies are for adults and kidults.

"Hostess Brands operates 20 wastewater pre-treatment facilities in 11 states. Much of the water purchased by the Company in recent time was treated and returned to local sewer facilities for reuse. We are reviewing water consumption at our plants in order to develop a "best practices" program to help each plant to continue to reduce water usage and related costs."

See? Hostess purchases filthy water and then takes the filth out of it. Why? It does not say.

"26 days: The shelf life of a Twinkie"

"500 million: The number of Twinkies baked each year."

"26 days: The shelf life of a Twinkie"

"500 million: The number of Twinkies baked each year."

Now THAT is a surrealist vista!

LOL! Good night, networker. Sleep tight. Don't let the bedbugs bite.

Tripp,


I liked your quote that "the physics of
contraction" are different than the
"physics of expansion".

There is a WORLDWIDE denial of the
IMPOSSIBILITY of growth in the coming
Malthusian epoch of nine billion people.
The entire financial services industry
exists to promote the growth CON JOB.

Since this industry is closing in on being
a third of the entire economy, you know
they aren't going down with a whimper but
with a bang.

PLANNED CONTRACTION is the only policy that
contains wisdom but, as has always been the
case in human history, no one will buy it
until there is "blood in the streets".


E.


You're right, Vlad ... the Founders intended
for America to be a REPUBLIC and not a
DEMOCRACY. Indeed, a democracy tends to
result in a society that placates and
appeals to the commoner and not the
best thinkers and innovators or the noblest
characters. This is especially true in a
meme-driven, media-created era like this one.

If the Founders wanted us to be a democracy
then we wouldn't have REPRESENTATIVES who
represent, as they would in a healthy
meritocracy, our "greater angels". Indeed,
the problem in public life now is that there's
no meritocracy at all ... only a KLEPTOCRACY
where those who have stolen the most win
because they have the scratch to control
the media.

I also disagree with Turkle about Socialism.
It looks great on paper but it is a Ponzi
scheme that starts imploding when birthrates,
retirees, and debts increase and resources
decrease. In a scant few years, you're going
to see many emerging problems in Europe such
as the wholesale caving-in of national pension
plans, more and more street riots and even more
day-to-day street brawls and incivilities.


E.


So neoliberalism is really just GLOBALISM
WITH A FANCY LABEL??

Thanks for correcting me, LBendet. Language
is so Orwellian these days that nothing means
what its etymological roots indicate it should
mean.

Neoliberalism is neither "neo" nor "liberal"
since it is the driving force pitting the
worlds workers against each other while the
CEO class gets Socialist protections and
immunity from job offshoring.


E.

1. We don't kill Time, Time kills us.

2. I asked for more Time from Time, but Time ran out of Time.

3. Life is like playing a game of chess against GOD, you won't win.

4. Our minds are always wrong.


Plan B?

I think what came out of ASPO clearly this month for me in D.C was plan M...

Read it here:

http://www.energybulletin.net/stories/2010-10-19/surprise-i%E2%80%99m-your-new-president-life-post-peak-military-coup-beyond

And it explains nicely the complete lack of action under way across most of the OECD's faux democracies - all up against the wall as early as 2015 - because the new elephant fields awaiting find just ain't there folks, even if they were, you'd still have to dial in the long wait for the uber-sweet-crude to start flowing...and then most likley the Chinese would nail it all anyways.

No... a nice militaristic pomp-n-circumstance future will work well indeed for the terror frightened sheeple masses....and a ban and confiscation of all non-consequential greedy folks financial and food horde assets will come too...

(For the orwellian controlled collective greater good of course)

Perhaps once more the beauties and young female flesh rounded up and herded will again service the new general class elites, and breed strong Mark Anthony types for future iron-fist stewardship?

'Back to the future' was always the most apt of phrases - cos human nature remains mainly basic low-grade reptilian - and always at heart has.

Once you fully digest this fact you can most certainly plan around that 'given'....

I dare say those ancient Greek aesthetes/academics thought themselves spear-proof too, until the unwashed muscled hordes overran them fully, and then the more savvy ones twigged all was really lost...

Though tis only ever just a cycle, we're fully into late autumn now.... and a new dawn spring is a very, very long way off....

(So forage and hide well CFK'ers all)

The winer of discontent is only a few crisis triggers away...

Well put, E.
That is a perfect definition of Neoliberalism. I think the problem with Europe is that they went along with the Ponzi scheme and will now have to pay back the piper with the public monies as they are trying to do with us.
The point is that they may not have run out of money and or they would have had to build their pension funds in different ways.
You really should read Naomi Klein "Shock Doctrine" it will sicken you. JHK asks why nobody in academia stands up and tells the truth. Well when Harvard professors make 300% on Russia's natural resources, you really can't expect them to say anything, can you? Jeffrey Sachs was the only one with a conscience during her interview with him.
A friend of mine has done some translations for the UN. He says that Kissinger wrote to a German finance minister (I don't know when) That We never should have done what we did to Russia.

Imagine if we still had the philosophy we did when we built the economies of Europe through the Marshall Plan.

Cool. I'm too squeamish to do the mouse thing, but it's a great idea. My cat goes outside and kills mice. We never seem to have a mouse problem in the house, either :)
I thought the squire in JHK's Witch of Hebron was a little silly, too -- that he would surely have a gun next to the bed -- the swords are clearly a JHK fantasy (like the nubile and/or mystical women) -- still a good story -- I didn't think of the dogs at the farm -- of course he would have dogs for alarm reasons. Or even just guards posted at night. Those guys would NEVER have gotten into the house that way.

Alexandra said:
"The winer of discontent is only a few crisis triggers away..."
Now that's a funny slip of the pen.

I have one thing to say real quick about the idea that developing perennial permaculture systems requires too much energy.

Look around. How much energy are we wasting on other activities? I have a 20 acre housing development under construction right across the street from me. Let's use it as a case study.

Instead of cutting in, forming and pouring curbs and gutters to centralize water collection, and move it off-site as rapidly as possible, let's regrade the margins to collect that rainwater in swales for infiltration. If we're clever, we could even use it to water the fruit trees and bushes we should be planting instead of dogwoods, redtips, and azaleas. It certainly wouldn't cost any more than all the impervious surface being built.

Instead of pointing gutters at the overly-centralized stormwater collection system, let's install a large cistern underground for each house and collect and reuse that rainwater for site irrigation. It would be about the same cost as the curb and gutter system.

Instead of putting in a massive sewage system, let's build in a graywater system for each house, cutting back even more on irrigation needs and reducing demand on the municipal supply chain. With the right project manager, this would cost no more than the central sewer in the building phase, and of course have positive affects on the landscape down the road.

It doesn't cost any more to do these things, to implement permacultural ideas. We just have to rethink what we're doing, and why. Like Heinberg says about accomplishing the task at hand, we don't need to evolve new genes, we just need to propogate new memes.

Tripp out.

....tripp at a certain point u just say phuqqit & do it on your own for yourself. which u obviously have

i cringe at the thot uv yet anuthr soulless 'development'. god.

"i cringe at the thot uv yet anuthr soulless 'development'. god."

The one bright spot is that it's urban revitalization, not suburban sprawl. There was a derelict Darth Vader-style housing project there before, before I moved here, and now they're putting in sidewalks and parks, and much nicer homes. I want it all to stop, believe me, but this is an improvement for this 'hood. Even as is with no houses yet.

Besides, I get a little kick out of watching the moneychangers bang there heads against the wall.

their heads

Do a post on this on your blog. You have lots of great stuff to say.

And I am taking YOU to task for selective reading and willful misinterpretation of my posts.

I'll quote my own post:

You guys are at least ten years late in pulling back. Like the Westmount Rhodesians in Montreal, the commies are gone. - Cash

Why do you figure I said that? I'll make it explicit: the commies are GONE. Even China, which is an authoritarian craphole (can't think of a better term), has given up on communism. So who do we have left? Fidel and those monsters in North Korea. That's it. And to make it more explicit by "you guys" I mean the United States of America and its far flung military.

So what else can you infer from those lines? (this is JHK's site after all and we can't write dissertations on it) Just this: that the US would have been justified in leaving its bases in place for a time after the collapse of the Soviet regime and its allies because from the perspective of the early 1990s nobody knew what would happen in the old Soviet bloc countries. They were nuclear armed after all. Would the communists stage a resurgence? What type of regimes would replace them? Would they be friendly or hostile? Would they destabilize neighbouring countries? But that history has been written and after a time events had taken shape. So there was/is no reason for the US to have such a widespread network of military bases. IMO that time has come and gone. And besides, the US in economic terms, cannot afford its military.

The reason I bother to argue with you is that your way of thinking is common. You don't give a remotely fair hearing to historical circumstance. With you and your ideological soulmates it's always Blame America First. You blindly detest your own country, you paint it in the worst possible light and you are BLIND to the depravities of other peoples and other ideologies. You are blind to the fact that there are powerful, sometimes malignant, non American elites in the world. You give lip service and that's it.

Why do I say lip service? You say "I condemned China for its actions in Tibet. I will gladly condemn any communist country that bombs, invades, and occupies other countries the way the USA does".

The way the US does? What utter bullshit. You mean like the massacre of millions of Ukrainians, the occupation, oppression, immiserisation of eastern Europe? And you conveniently don't mention the spread of that vile weapon of mass death by the Soviets. If you forgot what it was/is I'll fill you in again: the AK47 rifle.

No, to you the US is always the primary point of comparison, the main reference when it comes to global evil. It's an odd American conceit: "We're the worst, we're the worst!" Laughable and pathetic. Maybe more of the good old fashioned American arrogance/ignorance that so many in the world despise.

Read Nick Cohen's book "What's Left". Good read. Romps right along. You'll violently disagree with what he says.

Please name a communist country that has hundreds of military bases in a worldwide empire - Asoka

OK now that we've done the part about the commies being gone and the US being too slow in pulling back its military, let's answer the question about which communist country HAD military bases in a world wide empire, given that communism is gone. Actually, no fuck it, the question is dishonest, you know the answer.

As far as American misadventures go in the Middle East I've belaboured this in previous posts. For one thing the issue of Israel is pipsqueak, it's a tiny sliver of worthless sand in the middle of nowhere yet half the world is in an uproar over it. Who can be bothered.

As for the problem of the security of oil supplies, it's like the milkman/philosopher co-worker of mine said "business is business and love is bullshit". Middle eastern regimes will sell their damned oil regardless of who is in power there be they Islamists or otherwise. Why? Because business is business and love is bullshit. Even the most wild eyes Islamists know this. They know they have many millions to feed and if they want to stay in power they will sell the oil or face insurrection. The communists are the example. Workers paradise? Hah! Sadam invaded Kuwait? Who gives a shit. He would've sold Kuwaiti oil too.


Ladies and gentlemen, there is nothing, NOTHING, that is inherently evil about communism. - P

Yes but communism is as communism does. What communism did was awful.

Also, "Marxism, as a core belief, does argue that the means of production should be owned by the people. - W

What does "the people" mean in practice?

What do you mean by "owned"? To me, to "own" is to have the right to the use and possession of something. If that right is absent then "ownership" is meaningless.

Communism in practice: decades ago I worked in a dairy with a woman from Latvia, part of the east european bloc controlled by Russia. She went back to visit relatives in Latvia in the late 1970s. Her folks worked on a farm. According to my co-worker the farm workers there didn't give a shit when they milked a cow if the milk went in the pail or on the floor. Why? Wasn't their farm, wasn't their cow. Sloth and indifference.

Gorbachev came to Canada before he was top dog and visited a ranch in Alberta. He was amazed that for such a huge spread with so many cattle that the only workers were the farmer's family and a couple of cowboys. Gorby said: we won't see this in the Soviet Union for another 50 years.

Marx was a good student of capitalism but he was lousy at communism.


Cash said: "I'll make it explicit: the commies are GONE. Even China, which is an authoritarian craphole (can't think of a better term), has given up on communism."

Cash, you probably would have been among those who, in 1922, said communism was finished because Lenin had initiated his New Economic Policy (a limited embrace of capitalism, as China is doing today). But NEP was a bridge to decades of Communist Party rule and oppression in the decades that followed.

What is happening today in China is no different, and promises decades of murder and mayhem in the first half of the 21st century. You appear to be blind to the dangers of "communism" (i.e., State Socialism)and will not recognize what their own stated goal is:

The realization of communism is the highest ideal and ultimate goal of the Party.

SOURCE: CONSTITUTION OF THE COMMUNIST PARTY OF CHINA (Amended and adopted at the Seventeenth National Congress of the Communist Party of China on Oct. 21, 2007)

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2007-10/25/content_6944738.htm

Communism is the ideology of a small group which has become very quiet in recent years. But Lenin has not been buried, the KGB has not disappeared, Ukraine is independent in name only as the bodies of headless journalists turn up. In truth, the mechanisms of the Red Empire remain intact. Don't be fooled.

I could do like some folks do and just post an incredibly long re-printing of someone else's writing, but it is easier to simply point you towards it. (All about Vitamin B12 and how the body uses it.) BustinJ you may want to read this meticulously researched article:

http://www.westonaprice.org/abcs-of-nutrition/174-vitamin-b12.html

Networker is spreaking propaganda from the Weston Price Foundation, which does not represent what Weston Price himself believed:

I regret to say that those running the Weston A. Price Foundation today seem to have their own agenda. They are proponents of the philosophy that in order to be healthy, people must eat large amounts of saturated fat from animal products. They insist that only with the regular consumption of lard, butter and other full-fat dairy products, and beef, can people derive the nutrients they need to be healthy.

Toward that end, the Foundation has widely publicized an article written by a former member of the Foundation's Board of Directors, Stephen Byrnes, titled "The Myths of Vegetarianism."

The article is harshly critical of vegetarian diets, and concludes with an "About the Author" section which states: "Stephen Byrnes... enjoys robust health on a diet that includes butter, cream, eggs, meat, whole milk, dairy products and offal." In fact, Stephen Byrnes suffered a fatal stroke in June, 2004. According to reports of his death, he had yet to reach his 40th birthday.

SOURCE: http://www.vegsource.com/news/2009/11/reflections-on-the-weston-a-price-foundation.html

A Critique of the Myths of Vegetarianism by Stephen Byrnes

http://www.energygrid.com/health/2002/06ap-stephenbyrnes.html

The United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) examined the impact of the livestock industry on global warming, concluding that this industry accounts for 18% of all greenhouse gas emissions, which is significantly higher than the 13.5% produced by all world transportation (cars, planes, trains etc.).

So, although changing to energy-saving light-bulbs or using cars only for essential journeys is important and may make us feel green, unless we change to a vegetarian diet our actions will not be enough to stop the destruction of planet Earth.

China is authoritarian ie a dangerous place and will be for the foreseeable future. No doubt there are communist true believers. Can communist ideology stage a resurgence? Sure its possible.

But I wouldn't trust what the communist party writes. Look at what they do.

Cash said: "But I wouldn't trust what the communist party writes. Look at what they do."

On that we can agree, Cash.

I know it is frustrating to you that Americans are against American foreign policy actions. Those Americans are just applying the same principle you enunciate: don't look at what the American Constitution says. Look at what America is doing: overthrowing democratically elected governments, running secret armies, torture prisons, assassination teams, and drone-bombing in Pakistan (USA officially denying it happens but resulting in the death of Pakistani civilians).

'Superman and virtually all the Marvel Heroes were the creation of Jews. They are virtual golems who defend Jewish Interests - in this case via the imagination of the young. And as you know, no group is more in favor of this vicious globalism than the Jews. With a stoke of their pens, they destroyed the reputation of an American Hero like Lindbergh just because he thought we should stay out of the WW2 and he had the temerity to mention that they were for the war. He didn't say anything bad about them - he just said that they and Great Britain wanted us in. This they could not forgive. Just like Sanchez, no one can mention their name or this poor weak oppressed people will destroy them.'

yes but little boys seem more programmed toward war than little girls! maybe marvel was just telling them what they wanted to fantasize aboout.

You say:
"Yes but communism is as communism does. What communism did was awful."

No doubt awful things were done under the name of communism.

My only argument is that you and SEEMINGLY EVERYONE ELSE IN US politics has hopelessly conflated the EVIL done by communism with communism, socialism, the union movement, the clean air act, and just about every initiative for the common good that has come down the pike since Hoover.

I won't play the game with you that - bad things were done in the name of Americanism. I'm American to the bone, that's a fool's game, and Asoka plays it much better than anyone else on here, anyway. ;-)

BTW, on a more personal note - wasn't it you who objected to the use of American to describe US citizens. If you've noticed, I've been playing around with different descriptors. If you saw one that looked OK, let me know.

I think we're stuck with the language conventions we have. If y'all were the Canadian States of America and we were the US of A - then we'd have a bigger description problem.

AS it is, though, you are Canadians and we are Americans in the common cultural language of the planet. I'm 'fraid that may just be the way the Canadian Bacon bounces. ;-)

unless we change to a vegetarian diet our actions will not be enough to stop the destruction of planet Earth.

Getting the world to go vegetarian is another of those groundless dreams of the mystic left.

As a society *advances* it gains refrigeration which is one of your oft-stated goals for all people everywhere.

Advancing societies with empty fridges will seek to fill them with fresh meat. (Not much point in refrigerating bags of rice, beans, barley, and wheat, now, is there?)

Only population control can stop the destruction of the Earth. I say we start the only place we can legally do so - that being the borders, and entry ports of the United States.

BTW, on a more personal note - wasn't it you who objected to the use of American to describe US citizens. - P

It wasn't me. "American" to describe yourself is fine by me.

ProCon says:
"Only population control can stop the destruction of the Earth. I say we start the only place we can legally do so - that being the borders, and entry ports of the United States."
That doesn't make sense logically speaking, ProCon. Closing the borders of the U.S. does not control EARTH's population. It just keeps furriners out of the U.S. The Earth will keep being destroyed at the same general rate unless the population is drastically reduced, or the population takes drastic steps to reduce its negative effects on the earth (pollution, climate change, poisoned food, species and habitat destruction, etc.). And Climate Change is probably the single greatest threat at this point in time.

mila59 said: "That doesn't make sense logically speaking, ProCon."

No, it doesn't, but here is how ProCon is thinking: all those furriners are living at subsistence level now but as soon as they cross the Rio Grande their eating habits change, they start driving gas guzzlers, they become fat greedy polluting capitalists who overpopulate and destroy the Earth.

Ipso facto, to save the Earth, keep out the furriners.

Twisted, sick, and discriminatory logic in my opinion, but there are people who think that way.

P.S. I have previously posted statistics showing how many Billions of dollars Mexican immigrants send back to Mexico.

In other words, they continue to live at subsistence levels, they work hard, they sacrifice to support their families, and they are NOT the cause of pollution and over-consumption in the USA. They are NOT the cause of the Earth's destruction.

The multi-national corporations through their support of PAC's have gotten us fighting amongst ourselves.

I welcome all immigrants, legal or illegal, Mexican, Muslim, or Canadian as my brothers and sisters.

I know it is frustrating to you that Americans are against American foreign policy actions - Asoka

What doesn't frustrate me in the slightest is reasoned and reasonable dissent because it's part of a healthy democracy. Reasonable people can differ as to how a nation conducts its foreign policy.

For example our current govt has expended a fair bit of verbiage in declaring itself a stout ally of Israel. I don't know why. Personally I don't think Israel matters. Neither does Afghanistan where we've expended hundreds of dead and wounded and billions of dollars.

Unlike many of my fellow Canucks, I'm unembarrassed by our existence, I don't reflexively take an adversarial stance against our own country, I don't adopt a prosecutorial attitude towards our own military, I don't cast our actions in the world in the worst possible light and I don't sugar coat what other actors have done in this world. I would rather that we mind what goes on on our own turf, defend it with a tough nuclear armed military.

What does frustrate me is having to defend the US against America haters whether they're in Canada or in the US or elsewhere.

Superman..
==


Vlad, did you ever stop to think and critically analyze that JPMorgan/Rockefeller propaganda that you parrot?


If the Jews are so powerful in destroying people's reputation, through their control of the media I presume, how come they couldn't get a single major newspaper to publish and document to horror of the holocaust while it was happening? There were plenty of photos smuggled out and plenty witnesses to what was happeining, the Americans the British and other governments all knew what was happening, and yet this information was deliberately suppressed, until it was too late. How come?

If the Jews are so powerful how come they couldn't stop JPMorgan/Rockefeller/Ford/IBM/etc from funding and giving vital technical aid to the nazis (and the commies, btw)? How come they couldn't get the Americans or the British to drop a single bomb to disrupt the nazi trains from going to the nazi death camps, or drop a single bomb on the camps themselves? Americans and British bombers were constantly flying over these camps. How come?

If the Jews are so powerful, how is it that the arab nazis with the help of the British and the Americans have managed to slice Palestine (the arab-jewish agreed and signed upon national Jewish homeland), to a tiny sliver of what was agreed upon? And the slicing and carving is going on. How come?

If the Jews are so powerful, how come jews are always depicted front and centre of everything, even though for every "jew" involved in whatever they want to scapegoat "the Jews" for, there are thousands and millions of non-jews involved. How come it's always about "the jews", Vlad? How come?

I'll tell you how come. It's a deflection tactic to hide and shield the real fsckers with the real power and the real money, and allow the real criminals anonymity and an escape. Well, fsck that. And fsck you, Vlad, for playing along with these fscks.

..plenty ^of witnesses to what was happeining..

..the slicing and carving is ^still going on..

This immigration thread is interesting to me because I am a 1st generation American citizen. My father came over here when he was a boy. He told me many stories about the old country. His mother, my grandmother, came over in middle-age. She never spoke English very well, and couldn't read or write.

Not too long ago I visited Ellis Island when I was in New York. Fascinating place; I think everyone should go there to see what America once was all about. I was thrilled to see my grandmother, father and uncle on the original passenger manifest. My father told me how his uncle sponsored him and his family, and about his 1st ride to his new home in America.

My family history only goes back to my father's grandmother. Since my grandmother was born in 1881, my great-grandmother probably was born in the 1850's or '60's. She died just before my family left for America. There is no record anywhere before that. Believe me, I have checked. Any records that had existed probably got destroyed in WWII. I can't describe the weird feeling I get when I hear other people relate how they trace their families back hundreds of years, some for almost a thousand, and through many generations.


Obviously, I have a special empathy towards immigrants. Humans have been emigrating since they first stepped onto the savannah in Africa.
But I have very mixed feelings about illegal immigration. On the one hand I freely accept them; on the other, I know we are living on the borderland of scarce food and water and other essentials, and I don't want myself and my family to suffer because a lot of people are illegally taking these things away from me.

So which side do I support?


No more coffee for you, Mika.

Those of you looking for Purina People Chow, check out "Plumpy'nut" developed for malnourishment.

If you're looking for a sign that the shit has hit the fan, it might be army trucks dumping piles of Plumpy'nut packets on street corners.

"US nuclear weapons can't be ignored. Sure, among rational people, nukes are useless because everyone knows they would never be employed. The problem is the irrational people - they wouldn't hesitate to use nukes if they felt they could get what they want that way. For that reason, nuclear arms are truly frightening."

So does that make us Americans the rational people, or the irrational?

"If you're looking for a sign that the shit has hit the fan, it might be army trucks dumping piles of Plumpy'nut packets on street corners."

I don't know that we even need to go that far. Our power was off today for 6 hours after a pole around the corner snapped in half this morning. Just back on now. Off long enough that we talked fairly seriously about contingent plans for longer power outages, and fired up the grill to warm up some milk for baby and cook some burgers. What the heck? Since it's lit up and all. First time I've purchased conventionally raised ground beef in a while, and it was na-a-a-a-asty. That fat that takes industrial strength detergent to wash off your hands? As soon as it cools back down it takes that form again, depositing itself who knows where. Completely different than grass-fed beef. After making patties with grass-fed, you can just rinse off a little barely oily residue with plain water. No wonder grain-fed patties are so popular pre-formed.

Whole different fat profile. Whole different animal waste profile. Whole different purpose in the environment. I'll never touch that version of Kroger Human Chow again. Nasty.

"And then there was the New Deal, which of course, did nothing to help end the Great Depression, right?"

Correct. Here is a link to hundreds of articles claiming that very fact:

http://www.google.com/search?q=did+new+deal+end+depression&hl=en&client=safari&rls=en&ei=oKfATOC-EYX6lwfb5tzkCQ&start=10&sa=N

""The stimulus didn't work.""

Right again.

Here is just a part of an article explaining just that:

"In February 2009, Obama signed into law another "stimulus" that was advertised at $787 billion but now has an $862 billion price tag. Yet the National Bureau of Economic Research, the official scorer of recessions, told us last month the recession ended in June 2009, before virtually any of the Obama stimulus money started flowing.

Obviously, the stimulus cannot be said to have worked if the recession ended before the economy received the stimulus.

Since the official end of the recession, we have thrown hundreds of billions of dollars of stimulus money into the economy on top of the trillions of dollars that local, state and federal governments would be spending anyway. The Keynesian economic theory that stimulus supporters embrace tells us this extra government spending should have the economy roaring.

Instead, we read of this being the weakest economic recovery since World War II. We read of government leaders and central bankers around the world fearing another slide into recession. We read of an official unemployment rate that hovers between 9.5% and 10% and a real unemployment rate - which includes the unemployed, underemployed and those who are so frustrated they've stopped looking for work - around 17%.

Most of the so-called stimulus is going to government (teachers, police, firefighters, Medicaid, etc.). Even the $281 billion of tax breaks in the Obama stimulus are a failure. They're temporary, so people have tended to save the money instead of investing or spending it.

And the so-called tax breaks are really a form of government spending in that most are going to people who pay little or no federal income tax, including earned income tax credit recipients, who already receive tax dollars collected from others. It's just another income redistribution scheme, not an actual tax break."

Total story here:

http://www.jsonline.com/news/opinion/104595759.html


Here are links to about a jillion other articles which also say the stimulus DID NOT WORK:

http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=why+obama's+stimulus+didn't+work&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8


THIS IS WHY I SUGGESTED YOU DO A LITTLE HEAVY LIFTING ON YOU OWN YOU FUCKING IGNORAMUS. IF YOU HAD BOTHERED TO TAKE THREE MINUTES TO CHECK OUT WHAT I WAS SAYING YOU WOULD HAVE FOUND IT TO BE TRUE. NOW GO AWAY AND DO A LITTLE READING. IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU HAVE HUNDREDS OF BOOKS AND MULTIPLE DECADES TO DO A LITTLE CATCHING UP.

No more coffee for you either, tzatza.

"For instance, the government provides SS so that seniors can have some measure of stability and security in their retirement. A high percentage of seniors depend on SS payments."

I will, once again (because you appear incapable of finding any information on your own) share the following article, regarding SS:

"Here is a link to a report produced by the Trustees of the Social Security Trust Funds (“SSTF”).

This is a status report on the health of America’s Social Security and Medicare system. The conclusions contained in this report should come as no surprise. The system is bankrupt. It is just a matter of time. The magnitude of the problem is enormous. The Trustees estimate that the present value of the unfunded portion is $13.6 trillion. It is virtually certain that unless the imbalances are addressed in the near future, the U.S. Legacy Costs will destroy our economy.

The US is currently spending trillions of dollars in borrowed money to shore up a weakened economy. All of that money will be wasted. At best it will result in a resumption of economic growth for a few more years. By the end of President Obama’s first term the Social Security problem will already be a drag on the economy. By 2016 the damage will be impossible to reverse."

full article here:

http://seekingalpha.com/article/134542-social-security-bankrupt-system-will-impact-markets-sooner-than-expected

Again here is a link that will take you to a monumental number of articles explaining how fucked up our SS truly is:

http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=S.S.+BANKRUPT&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

Bottom line, ole' turkey-lurkey, those seniors that need "... some measure of stability and security in their retirement..." would have been much better off having been able to keep the funds that were robbed out of their paychecks to fund the disaster that SS has become.

Of course you who seem to relish having the "government" save you from yourself find this a bit disturbing.No surprise there. None.


"On the one hand I freely accept them; on the other, I know we are living on the borderland of scarce food and water and other essentials"

I know how you feel. Especially considering that in some ways we've made life harder on the world's other people. Do we 'fess up to the guv'nuh, and go down reaching out to those folks we steamrolled? Or withdraw into a political boundary spared of its own inhabitants' appetite by globalism, and maybe survive a while longer? Maybe. I think Louzader said something about a complete destruction of standing biomass if we had to revert to a fire-based economy. And I agree whole-heartedly with that concern. Especially in the prairie regions, like where my dad and brother live, or in the drier areas like the inland northwestern US, where there are fewer trees and/or long regeneration times on timber. I don't think we even need to mention how screwed the folks in the over-populated desert southwest would be. This certainly had an impact on where we settled to ride out contraction.

Asoka! Asia! Start catching water if you want to have some! And recycling graywater if you want to grow something worth eating. I'm not too keen on this Purina Human Chow idea. I get the feeling proponents of this insanity don't know their way around the kitchen so well.

But I definitely encourage people to think about major ecological factors when choosing a place to hunker down. Obviously rainfall and growing season matter (most experienced water harvesters say 35" of rain minimum to live), but regional mineral fertility, ecotonal advantages, political flexibility, and population densities should be evaluated too. You want a city big enough to meet its own needs as an autonomous political unit, like a city-state, but small enough to squelch crowd bugs like polio and measles. I understand that 350,000 is about the required population to maintain epidemic diseases. Boston's screwed in that department. And we're really pushing the envelope here with our metro area population. But proximity to family over-rode that one for now. We can always move to a smaller town.

Wish I had better vision.

Youz been spiking the coffee, haven't you, motherfscker?! I fscking knew it!

"No more coffee for you either, tzatza."

Damn. I was just clamoring another schooner-sized cup. Oh well...

It's not a country thing, it's an individual thing. It only takes a few people in authority to launch a nuclear missle.

"I never said anything about abandoning principles of human rights or any such thing."

But, the belief you are espousing {man is an animal} logically leads to abandoning them. 1. Animals do not have inalienable rights, 2. if man is an animal, 3. he does not have inalienable rights. Some wish to extend rights to animals, but rather than raising the status of animals they a lowering the status of man.

""The stimulus didn't work."

Is that right? Since when are you an economics expert Ms. TzaTza?"

And finally, turkey-lurkey, regarding this brilliant statement I will resort to quoting Bob Dylan (you do know who he is don't you ?).

"You don't need a weatherman...
To know which way the wind blows."

Thats all for now, idiot, you make my head hurt. I know one can't fix stupid but that doesn't mean I can't at least try.

Try tea. It calms the emotions as it stimulates the mind. But bag tea is the worst quality. Loose leaf green, oolong, or black; I tend towards the green end of the spectrum.

Not a problem as I like my tea as well. Lapsang Souchong is da' bomb. It's like drinking a single malt scotch without the hangover.

"3. he does not have inalienable rights."

Man has the inalienable rights the lion stalking the savannah allows him. Societal cooperation and projectile weapons so improved our lot in that department that we often see human rights as self-evident. Organized religion is surely part of that societal cooperation. Not sure that'll hold as much water as we get back toward tribalism.

"It only takes a few people in authority to launch a nuclear missle."

Yeah, and only who has done so to date? That was my point.

About 5 or 6 years ago I gave up meat-eating. I'm a 90% vegan, by which I mean that I'll eat some cheese, and of course, I won't give up my beloved chocolate. I had always loved a good quality steak, particularly filet mignon. Just before I became an almost-vegan, I was concerned I wouldn't be able to forego steak, but the funny thing is, I had no problem dropping beef, chicken and fish. But for some reason I really craved cheese even though before, I could take it or leave it.

My definition of animal is any non-human fauna, land or sea. I don't believe such creatures are equal to humans in every respect. They have my respect. I respect their right to existence - except if humans really need food or clothing. I respect their right to not have to suffer (oh, the eyes of a suffering animal), and respect them enough to treat them kindly whenever possible. BUT, they are not people. Politicking to give them the full set of human rights is downright silly.

Ah, I see. Well, we certainly did set the precedent.

Bill, where do the banksters fit in your scheme of things? Should we politicking to give them the full set of human rights or is that downright silly?

Debunking Money #2: Orwell and the Animal Farm | Council on Renewal - http://goo.gl/cMnr

..Should we ^be politicking..

Wow!
Mila, Asoka, BeanTown, and no telling who all else,

I had to leave the computer to go get some honest work done and it looks like you guys have been whuppin' me while I was gone. :-)

Borders are important. US population needs to be discussed because at some point logic dictates we exceed a point beyond which we should not go.

Tripp, a polite and well respected poster on this site, postulates a 6 into 1 "population keyhole" sometime in his lifetime. That reduces the continental US population from 300 million to 50 million. His figures are based on pre-Columbian population figures and carrying capacities.

Note the words CARRYING CAPACITY because 6/1 does not work if US population goes to 400 million - it will still reduce down to 50 million.

And the would only be if all 50 million were aboriginal Americans who knew what the heck they had to do to survive.

Tripp - I hate to invoke your name like this. I have seen that you are uncomfortable with this issue. Our discomfort won't make it go away, though.

And turning border security always and everywhere into a race or class issue is invidious.

Witness:
"It just keeps furriners out of the U.S"

Maybe that's a slam at me for daring to be male, or white, or southern, or something, but nothing in my post deserves a slanderous misspelling like this.

The longer the US allows itself to function as an overflow valve for poverty, environmental degradation and overpopulation in the rest of the world - - THE WORSE THE COMING DISASTER WILL BE!

Now, if you Mila, or you, Asoka, can politely point out the illogic in that statement, I'll be delighted to respond - and we can have what's called a dialog.

And no fair arguing it will all be OK somehow - that's 8M's turf!

ProCon, I am not going to lift a finger to stop immigration, but I suspect the situation will change anyway. From my extensive contacts in the third world I know the hunger to come to America is dissipating. I know some already here with the coveted green card are thinking of returning because things are not as good here anymore, partly because jobs are scarce, and partly because people like you (and Obama) are militating against illegal immigrants instead of welcoming them, helping them to become legal and thus able to realize their potential, become loyal patriots, and contribute to the greatness that immigrants have always contributed to America.


Is Communism totalitarian in nature or does revolution turn ugly?

I read over a number of comments made earlier today and I was struck by the conflating of two separate issues: Communism and totalitarianism and how they are expressed in economics and the political theater. I wouldn't automatically say the two go hand-in-hand, but historically (between Russia and China) it certainly looks that way. However, I can't help but think it's a little knee-jerk when said without question.

As I've mentioned in the past, I think Marxism is prettier on paper than it is in practice-it simply doesn't fit in with human nature. That said, we all know that any number of economic models can be governed by uber repressive political systems. Totalitarianism can be both overt and subtle encompassing the populace through propaganda and force to accept a political take-over or coup, in the case of revolution to a whole new system.

With the imposition of new systems of economics, culture/customs and politics upon the populous the fear of resistance becomes the very thing that destroys the utopian vision of the original intent. And all that well meaning and the human toll. When you study the history inevitably you question whether it's ever worth it in the end.

Case in point, the secret police, the Cheka, established by Lenin. This was the precursor to the KGB as a means to enforce and repress opposition. Atrocities were committed in the aftermath of the original revolution in attempt to achieve order; tragically setting the stage for the paranoid, megalomaniac Stalin.

The specifics of setting up a one-party system or limiting the movement to the confines of a nation-state as opposed to global, are all choices made once the political decisions are drawn.
In the case of Lenin or Stalin, they would have gone with the Nation state as the priority, but Trotsky had a different vision of how this was supposed to play out. He ideated the global spread of communism that did not stay within the confines of a nation, but had a dynamic flow throughout the class system around the world expressed as the rise of the proletariat. Communism may have looked a lot different if it played out in other ways, but who knows...

Last week I made reference to Milton Friedman having read Trotsky's Permanent Revolution. His ideology was to create a global free trade system with some countries that manufactured and other who are the consumers of last restort. That system would flow power and capital to the elite, smashing labor at the same time.

All of these gov mafia "isms" are just variations on a theme. They all operate on the same central bank walfare/warfare model:


Tim Healy says:

October 20, 2010 at 11:42 pm
http://goo.gl/cMnr


"If you are saying that the debt money created by banks is a claim on the wealth of the nation you are right. The question is, why should a privileged group, like the bankers, have the right to create a claim against the wealth of others by a simple bookkeeping entry, while producing no wealth themselves? In order for all the rest of us to acquire wealth or money legally, we must produce some good or service that others will trade their goods and services for through the medium of money. I cannot legally acquire money without offering to others some form of wealth that they desire. But if I could create fiat money at the stroke of a computer key, as the bankers do, then I could acquire your wealth while offering none in return.

Neither banks nor governments produce wealth. But they both expropriate the wealth of those who do produce it. Now in a nation where all are supposed to be equal before the law, and there are no privileged classes, why do some have the right to create fiat money and others don’t. When you can expropriate the fruits of my labor while giving none in return, that amounts to theft, whether its been made legal by corrupt polititians or not.

It’s no accident that the wealth of this nation and that of other nations the banks have put in debt, through the agency of their monopoly fiat money, has been ever more and more concentrated into the hands of those who control this counterfeiting scheme. This is because, as you say, THEIR fiat money (debt) is collateralized by OUR wealth. If that’s fine with you, what can I say?"


Please, someone, anyone, tell me that you finally understand that there's no difference between all these bankster ideologies. They were ALL cooked up by the banksters. Can no one see this but me?

"Witness:
"It just keeps furriners out of the U.S"

Maybe that's a slam at me for daring to be male, or white, or southern, or something, but nothing in my post deserves a slanderous misspelling like this."

If you're suggesting that I said this it will make the second time this week that I've been chastised for something I didn't say.

Mika,
Mika,

History is so revisionist. All these years I thought Shakespeare said, "First, we kill all the lawyers", when what he actually wrote was, "First, we kill all the banksters". Who can argue with Shakespeare? I hope that clarifies my position.

Human rights require the creature to be human. There can be no human rights for those who should be, but aren't human.


Procon,

What whuppin'? I think I was more in agreement with you than not.

Of course I see that. Kind of obvious,just from what's been happenng the last few years. I think bankers starting feeling even more secure than they did before, so they feel comfortable being blatant now.

"Can no one see this but me?"

Ahmed sees it quite well. The government make "laws" which apply to "men, and other animals" basically a pagan {religious} doctrine, in order to domesticate them.

Those that have usurped the power of government have instituted policies and rules, mostly through contract law, to undermine constitutional rights upon the ignorant, while stealing their productivity {"We Are Farmed - Charles Fort}.

"And My people love to have it so."

http://adask.wordpress.com/2010/09/27/the-nature-of-money/

Tripp,
==========
"If you're suggesting that I said this it will make the second time this week that I've been chastised for something I didn't say."
==============
No - although I will go ahead and apologize to you again while I'm at it here.

I had posted something to the effect that the only thing we (as US citizens) can do about world overpopulation is to do every legal thing we can to reduce our own population growth - including securing all our borders and entry points.

Asoka and Mila responded and both used the term "furiners" - which really pissed me off for some reason.

So I invoked the only population collapse figures I could access off the top of my head - yours - in my response.

Which leads to this:
---------------
Tripp, a polite and well respected poster on this site, postulates a 6 into 1 "population keyhole" sometime in his lifetime. That reduces the continental US population from 300 million to 50 million. His figures are based on pre-Columbian population figures and carrying capacities.

Tripp - I hate to invoke your name like this. I have seen that you are uncomfortable with this issue. Our discomfort won't make it go away, though.
==================================
===================================
==================================
==================================
And turning border security always and everywhere into a race or class issue is invidious.

Witness:
"It just keeps furriners out of the U.S"

Maybe that's a slam at me for daring to be male, or white, or southern, or something, but nothing in my post deserves a slanderous misspelling like this.
===================
So that was it, but this time I added 4 rows of ====,=====,=====,====== to more clearly separate where my (mis??) appropriation of your ideas ended and where my own ideas resumed.

So, my bad, as some of your neighbors would say, and I hope my apology/explanation is sufficient.

BTW, keep up the good work on here and for permaculture. There are always gonna be naysayers. Sometimes even articulate and well spoken naysayers - but being articulate and well spoken doesn't mean they are correct. ;-)

apples are not oranges!
1930 and 20,000 allowed into USA and they HAD to support themselves ,learn english etc and ...
1965..the democrats destroyed the USA...
read pat buchanon, numbers usa, frosty wooldridge..

the canard that the us alwways accepted 100,000 to 5 million in a year is just that..
it was vlad who taught me about emma lazarus!

woops..i maybe started this s@it storm...
well..: 'If the Jews are so powerful, how come jews are always..'
if 'the jews' are so weak how the heck did the 'get'/ occupy israel and get so much $ from the US govt..for 6 decades??
and what about the 340? nukes they deny having?
dont sound so weak to me!

'I am not going to lift a finger to stop '
of course not..you lift a finger to let us know here how wonderful things are!
what you worry?????

im in LA..i dont want the rainwater..and those who swim in the ocean [lifeguards] get more cases of cancer...
and to those in colorado its illegal to 'catch the rain'


Good.
==

"Let me tell you why you're here. You're here because you know something. What you know you can't explain, but you feel it. You've felt it your entire life, that there's something wrong with the world. You don't know what it is, but it's there, like a splinter in your mind, driving you mad.” - The Matrix

if 'the jews' are so weak how the heck did the 'get'/ occupy israel and get so much $ from the US govt..for 6 decades??
==

They are not occupying anything, you motherfscker. They are living in their own land, land which was theirs before the words arab, anglo, or american were even coined. Land which they bought and fought for like lions. As to your fscking dollars, take your fscking dollars and give back the 6 million jews you helped murder.

BeanTown,
==========
Procon,
What whuppin'? I think I was more in agreement with you than not.
==========

You were, Bean. I was going to get to you right after finishing my "correction?" to Tripp. I actually enjoyed your post when I had time to settle down and read the whole thing. And your story is interesting, especially involving Ellis island. We took the kids there in the 90's and I just could not seem to make the place resonate for them like you could have with a personal story.
=============
My mistake was reading the needlessly racist "furriners" in Mila's and A's response to me, scanning yours and figuring, "oh, what the hell, one more mad at me." And lumping all of you together for a response before supper.

So I apologize.

Asoka and I have had little dust-up's before over the unsecured border issue. But the repetitive triteness -and hanging accusation of racism- in his answer made me hurry my responses.

Yours was great. I'd like to hear more of how you think you will eventually answer that hanging question you left us. :-)


You point out, as does WageLaborer, the
exist of the new "educational-industrial"
complex which is far, far more insidious
than Eisenhower's "military-industrial"
complex. One almost expects the latter.
However, until the 1990s, educational
institutions were supposed to be a
COUNTERBALANCE to industry profit motive
by providing people alternate avenues to
joy through the wonders of KNOWING.

However, now, educational institutions
are just weird vo-tech schools which teach
people how to be cogs in the great industrial
machine. It does not want to refine them into
interesting, innovative human beings. It just
wants them to be idiot savants in one area
which benefits a corporation.

It's one of many reasons why I AM DONE FOR
GOOD with educational institutions.


E.


Wage ... see my reply above LBendet. It
dovetails into what you said.


E.


Wage, that is ... my reply TO LBendet. Sorry.

E.

OK, Mila,

We're enjoined from even DISCUSSING border security because even thinking about it makes one racist or something.

What are US citizens to do?

We can't export meaningful family planning materials because our own conservative republican Christians, in cahoots with world Catholics won't have anything to do with non-procreative sex.

I truly am open to logical suggestions.

Now some humor, then I'm hitting the rack.

After 3+ months of comments on CFN, I can single-handedly take responsibility for my very own ancillary topic -

Purina Human Chow

I suggested it partially as a joke and partially as a practical emergency food. Some of the reactions of HORROR from some of you have shown me why we won't be seeing this new product on the shelves anytime soon.

Puzzeler, your stuff actually sounds delicious, but probably really fattening for a well-fed US citizen. I may see if I can purchase a 2000# pallet of the stuff though, solving in one stroke my neighborhood's food storage needs for the next 2 or 3 decades.

But now I need a snack for bed. Start with whole wheat cracker (high sodium) and a layer of peanut butter (high fat). Then I need broccoli (low taste) for vitamins, cheese (more fat) to make the broccoli worth eating - maybe I better add some mayo to glue this whole mess together before I take a bite.

Sure makes me wish I had a healthy handy box of

Purina Human Treats!

But maybe that's just me?

Karl Marx wrote in the Communist Manifesto that "a spectre is haunting Europe." It should be noted that he wrote these words on the eve of revolutionary outbreaks that began in Italy and France in 1848 and engulfed much of the Continent.

In the event no one has noticed here in America - the land of the free and Homeland of the brave - Europe is again in the midst of raging battles, threatening to spread. The fiscal crisis that started in the USA and swept the globe, along with the sovereign debt that has been inflicted upon the EU as a result, has ignited the passions of strangled and enslaved masses everywhere. People have recognized their enslavement and have identified the slave-masters. And those largely capitalist regimes are no less affected (perhaps more so) than are the democratic-socialist, communist, or theocratic ones.

What began in early 2009 with demonstrations of civil unrest as widespread as Latvia, Lithuania, Ukraine, Bulgaria, Montenegro, Poland, Germany, Hungary, Greece, Portugal, Russia and the Czech Republic, in response to diverse austerity measures implemented by the ruling elites, has broken out recently in full force in France. Much like the political protests following the Iranian elections in 2009, months of protests and street demonstrations across France have taken a more violent turn as telltale signs of an armed insurrection continue to mount. Across the Atlantic, even the Canadians have put down their Labatts long enough to become enraged - with protests at the G-20 in Toronto that would make even a Frenchman proud; protests that have fast revealed the tyrannical underbelly of the tamest looking of political beasts.

Of course, the American working class is still staring at the shadows cast upon the walls of its cave - or is that 'its prison' - believing what it is told by its owners and trainers..."that all is right with the world... just keep your head down, work hard, and join the party" (or perhaps the Tea Party). And political hucksters, like Mr. Obama, reassuringly tell us "Yes We Can" survive this crisis and continue to participate in the American Dream (if only we do as the big boys tell us). It is as if, just like in that great children's story the Wizard of Oz, the man behind the curtain is imploring us to just ignore what is evidently before our eyes. He tells us that our world is intact and will continue to prosper. And we dutifully listen, willingly refusing to see what is graphically before us. Instead we keep our backs turned, comfortably watching the pretty shadows cast upon the wall by talented puppet masters - like the Koch brothers - in our shadowbox theatre.

Yet the less illusioned among us can no longer afford to ignore the mounting visceral evidence. The show is rapidly coming to an end, and most probably an inglorious one at that. What, with the near total destruction of our biosphere, peak oil, peak water, the crises in economic and financial systems worldwide, political unrest abroad and ostensibly in the homeland, signs of immanent collapse are plentiful.

But even our European brethren do not understand the magnitude of this seismic event. It is neither a fiscal nor an economic problem; it is not a matter of having the wrong political leadership, nor an issue of confused or misguided social priorities. It is a crack in the scaffolding of the theatre of the Spectacle that began with the advent of history, of civilization. It is the endgame of a cultural mal-adaptation that has pathologically sought artifices of manipulation and control at all costs.

As Thomas Hobbes proleptically, but unwittingly, stated centuries ago...this will be a "Warre of all against all." But it will not be the war he mistakenly assumed would have ensued had it not been for the establishment of civil society. It is not the barbaric war he imagined would have occurred among our pre-civilized ancestors had it not been for our constituting the social contract. Rather, it is a war resulting from that very contract, and from the subsequent momentum that has driven civilization for these last six thousand years of recorded history, grounded in such cold and calculating thinking.

Of course, the spectre Marx was referring to above is Communism; his contention was that it would and should be the final stage in the dialectical movement of history to a civil, but classless, society. But he was mistaken. That experiment didn't work out so well either. The real "spectre" or ghostly apparition among us now is a natural reflection of the unpleasantness of industrial civilization itself - and the systems of hierarchy and domination it has devised and perfected, largely based upon the syllogism, and the logic it entails. This is the logic of objective science, the principle of our legal systems, the rationality behind our social contracts, the anonymity of our civil politics, and the narrative framework of history itself. It is a logic binding us to those hierarchies that have eventually worked to empty the world of all its resources and life, of all its significance, leaving instead impersonal systems to control and manage all logistical affairs, human or natural. It is the necessary culmination of six thousand years of unnatural human history that began with the first urban empires emerging in and around the Fertile Crescent and the Persian Gulf.

What people everywhere may be sensing about this unpleasantness is that they too have become emptied parts of emptying hierarchical wholes (institutions) - an emptiness stated most baldly in the following formulation: If A=B, and B=C, then A=C. Here a universal statement is related to a particular to yield a logical conclusion. Whether to control nature or our fellow humans, in this view all parts of the system become interchangeable commodities in the logic of control. Herein lie the underpinning of our emptiness and our sense of alienation from one another, from nature, and from ourselves. In seeking remediation for this unpleasantness, we the people have sought to acquire other commodities to make us feel whole - televisions, cars, laptops, and smart phones. And when the price of ownership became too high, the guys in charge broke out the cheap stuff, and gave us Wal-Mart, so we might again feel as though we are part of the party. But we may be discovering that flashy cars and big screen televisions do not make us happy.

America, as we know, is the most rational of all modern, civilized societies. We have more science and technology, more lawyers and laws, more prisons and prisoners than any other country on the planet; we have more money managers and swindlers, more productivity, more psychopathology, and more lone terrorists acting out against whatever they perceive as an injustice in their world. And yet we keep marching straight ahead to the precipice. We are a nation of laws, not a community of persons - and we are committed to the syllogism as no other. There is no dignity in our enslavement; we have become the emptiest of souls.

What is haunting the globe today is the spectre of a primitive anarchism, a feral tendency buried deep within the marrow and musculature of the human species - an instinct to live outside the constraints artfully but coldly created by hierarchical institutions of domination that have been enslaving us and the planet for six millennia now. It is anarchic in the truest sense of the word. It seeks to be leaderless not merely in a political sense, but free as well from the tyrannical hegemony imposed by the civilizing logic of syllogistic reasoning itself. It seeks freedom in the polysemy of the sensuous, of the body - not the body politic. The spectre is real, and it is upon us. It is loose and has a will of its own - as fearful as it seems to myself or to others. And it will not end casually or syllogistically. Through escape, through lawlessness perhaps, it will end, naturally.

See my lengthy post just above Conchscooter

It is a crack in the scaffolding of the theatre of the Spectacle that began with the advent of history, of civilization. It is the endgame of a cultural mal-adaptation that has pathologically sought artifices of manipulation and control at all costs.

It is hyperbole unrivaled in the annals of human existence in the Milky Way.

"if 'the jews' are so weak how the heck did the 'get'/ occupy israel and get so much $ from the US govt..for 6 decades??
and what about the 340? nukes they deny having?
dont sound so weak to me!"

They got Israel only because Europeans and Americans felt guilty for the 6 million Jews killed by the Nazis. Or alternatively, if I was Mika, I would also say because the banksters thought that helping Israel would gain them a wedge into the arab lands and help secure their oil.

Not that it makes any real difference, but last I heard it was 200 nukes.

According to the CIA World Factbook, here is a list of some of Israel's neighbors with their estimated 2010 populations and their land areas:


Country population(millions) area (sq.mi)

Pakistan 170 310,400
Egypt 78.8 386,600
Iran 75 636,000
Saudi 26 757,000
Syria 22.5 71,500
Jordan 6.4 33,600
Lebanon 4.2 4,000

Total 382.9 2,199,100
Israel 7.6 8,000

Look at these numbers and tell me Israel is so strong compared to their enemies. That's why Israel has nukes - to try to overcome their incredible disadvantage. And wait and see what happens when Iran gets the bomb.

Good statement trippticket... see my lengthy post just above

Asoka - check out my lengthy post above

No, your drinkin much more serious Kool aid

Bravo! In essence, this is the story of the Tower Of Babylon writ large, and why the ancient Israelites abandoned the city states for the hills of Judea.

Ivo - it is the same with my in-laws here in Siberia. A way of life at the dacha... just as you described, and we all enjoy the labor

Israel doesn't have any nukes. Not 400, not 200, not 20, not 2. Nada. Anyone that says otherwise is mindlessly parroting CIA propaganda, and is little more than a CIA stooge.

Mika - glad you enjoyed it; Asoka the Buddha thought it too hyperbolic!!

Mika - glad you enjoyed it; Asoka the Buddha thought it too hyperbolic!!


sorry - posted this in reply to wrong prson

"and to those in colorado its illegal to 'catch the rain'"

Why? Because it keeps its true "owners" downstream in the desert from having enough to waste on their lawns and in their toilets? The anti-rainwater harvesting laws in CO are the most backwards and oppressive example of American "culture" out there.

The worst part about all this is the utter lack of understanding of watershed physics. Slowing and infiltrating the rain improves the downstream supply, both quantitatively and qualitatively. We're never going to make things better as long as we fail to question the prevailing wisdom.

And you, Asia, are the most plugged-in person on this list. I can watch your convictions sway like the wind of popular opinion.

"Good article, MD." You are welcome. Too bad some people don't read the links. You can't put everything {they need to know} on here.

"It's one of many reasons why I AM DONE FOR
GOOD with educational institutions."

E, you are starting to sound like

http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/ .

"Asoka the Buddha thought it too hyperbolic!!"

A more ringing endorsement is hard to come by!

"Some of the reactions of HORROR from some of you have shown me why we won't be seeing this new product on the shelves anytime soon."

You will have to make your own:

http://makepemmican.com/

Good grief, ProCon, I was just trying to be "light" with the "furriner" comment. I honestly had no idea you would be so insulted by this. I'm truly sorry. I see so much horrible invective on this forum...and when I just try to make an ordinary comment it seems to really get your goat for some reason.

Mika,
I know you find it frustrating that people are not linking up all these centralized systems as one and the same, but actually they're not quite.

I think there are all different flavors of subjugation and different extremes. It's important to recognize how these entities function and how we are effected. There are gray zones between aggressive intimidation to resist through torture etc. as example to the rest and the velvet glove approach of influence through marketing ideology. We are so ripe for marketing since we've been conditioned through TV for advertising. This is why the power elite got it's way with the Supreme Court.

When I wrote about communism and totalitarianism I was simply stating that we are so brainwashed by the cold war, especially those of us who grew up at the height of the fear mongering here, that we simply can't discuss this issue without blind prejudice (is all).

I don't know whether you have read Chris Hedges, but he's written some astute articles and books.:
In his recent article, “Democracy in America is a Useful Fiction”, Hedges defines “inverted totalitarianism”:
“Inverted totalitarianism represents “the political coming of age of corporate power and the political demobilization of the citizenry [...] Inverted totalitarianism differs from classical forms of totalitarianism, which revolve around a demagogue or charismatic leader, and finds its expression in the anonymity of the corporate state. The corporate forces behind inverted totalitarianism do not, as classical totalitarian movements do, boast of replacing decaying structures with a new, revolutionary structure. They purport to honor electoral politics, freedom and the Constitution. But they so corrupt and manipulate the levers of power as to make democracy impossible.”
I highly recommend another article Zero Point of Systemic Collapse
:https://www.adbusters.org/magazine/88/chris-hedges.html

No no no. I said it. I was just "joking around" with the spelling of the word "foreigners." Guys, please, I meant nothing other by it than trying to keep the mood "light" with a goofy spelling...clearly I need to NOT do that...I'm really sorry...I do honestly feel that immgrants aren't what's wrong with the world or our country in terms of environmental impact...I actually DO have issues with extreme multiculturalism, because I believe it creates huge divisions rather than bringing people together...this opinion is based upon a lifetime of observation and pondering on the matter.

And P.S. to ProCon: What on earth was racist about my comment? That completely baffles me. I was just pointing out that it was illogical to say that keeping "foreigners" out of the U.S. would somehow stop the ruination of the earth. You've accused me of being a racist before and I'm always puzzled by this.

Thanks, MD, that's really a very good and useful website. Any of you who plan to eat meat post-collapse might want to print it out.
(On archival paper with permanent ink!? ;-) )

Mila, probably if it had just been your one response it would not have angered me so. When Asoka picked up on it and repeated the "furriners" -
well - the rest is history on the thread for all to see.

I was born in '55 in Georgia, absorbed white supremacy completely as a birthright -then progressed way beyond that, lived thru desegregation, spent 40 years in multicultural settings ---

So I've seen and done a lot. Yet, on here, I've learned some things about myself. That's why most of us are here - to learn something.

Plus the fact that *most* of us believe some version of what JHK is selling - our Planet is on an unsustainable course.

When you say:
================
I actually DO have issues with extreme multiculturalism, because I believe it creates huge divisions rather than bringing people together...this opinion is based upon a lifetime of observation and pondering on the matter."
==============
Now that sister, (brother?) is something worth thinking about.

But I'll guarantee you that Asoka WILL NOT have issues with any of those things you mention.

And he will impede any attempts at discussion like "a cheerleader on meth." TM Eleuthero?


Asoka, you really don't believe much of what JHK is selling. That's why it is hard for me to conduct a friendly logical discussion with you jumping around saying, "LOOK AT ME, LOOK AT ME!"

And I'm slowly starting to feel my enthusiasm for this website waning. It's funny that a few posters asked Mika last week to stop using the word "faggot" and he finally did.

But in the 4 months I have been on this thing at least 20 different posters have asked you in various ways to cool it - yet you keep right on.

Oh well, you've outlasted more persistent men online than me, I guess.

===================

Speaking of which, where has Q gone. He said one day that he would die with a leaf blower running in his hand - or something like that.
And leaves must have been falling pretty heavily in 'Jersey last week.
Well, I for one will wish him well.

And may the peace of perfectly spelled and constructed paragraphs be upon him!


Sound analysis, K.C., and an insightful probe of the path to "consumerism" and "commodification".

As to your final paragraph:

"What is haunting the globe today is the spectre of a primitive anarchism, a feral tendency buried deep within the marrow and musculature of the human species - an instinct to live outside the constraints artfully but coldly created by hierarchical institutions of domination that have been enslaving us and the planet for six millennia now. It is anarchic in the truest sense of the word. It seeks to be leaderless not merely in a political sense, but free as well from the tyrannical hegemony imposed by the civilizing logic of syllogistic reasoning itself. It seeks freedom in the polysemy of the sensuous, of the body - not the body politic. The spectre is real, and it is upon us." -K.C.

Interestingly enough, this seems to be the very definition of the lawless (and "above the law") behavior of the uber-rich and well-connected! Strange, isn't it? (Perhaps that's what makes your post so much more than "theory"; those who have the most lose all constraint and scruples.)

"Speaking of which, where has Q gone. He said one day that he would die with a leaf blower running in his hand - or something like that."

Yes, I've wondered about him myself a few times this week.

Q! Q!! Where are you??

Oh and PoC, don't even think about leaving. We'll hunt ya down.

"...Speaking of which, where has Q gone?" PoC

He made reference to helping a friend who was ill. I suspect it's taking all of his spare time and emotional wherewithal. Correcting grammar and spelling appears far down the list when these considerations come up. (It's happening to all of us more and more frequently, so it's a fairly safe bet. )

MD, you don't need to kill animals to make your own pemmican. Here is a recipe for vegetarian pemmican, also tested by cave people:

http://www.food.com/recipe/vegetarian-pemmican-bars-158852

CORRECTION
Here is a recipe for vegetarian pemmican. Cave people also ate a lot of fruits and nuts and seeds.

ProCon said: "But in the 4 months I have been on this thing at least 20 different posters have asked you in various ways to cool it - yet you keep right on."

Please define "cool it"

My posts are logical, well-informed, and often brilliant. Are you asking for mediocrity? Or are you suggesting only those in complete agreement with JHK read and post here?

P.S. I innocently repeated mira59's spelling of furriners with no intent to offend. Please accept my apology, if you were offended.

"...Please accept my apology, if you were offended." -A.

...And if I wasn't offended, is the apology retracted/recanted? ;o)
(Always wondered about that; seems to be the "standard" political parsing these days.)

Yeah, if there was no offense, then the apology would be unnecessary.


I know you find it frustrating that people are not linking up all these centralized systems as one and the same, but actually they're not quite.

I think there are all different flavors of subjugation and different extremes.
==

What you need to understand is that it's all part of the same false and completely contrived dialectic. It's the blue vs red team, Democrats vs Republican if you like, when in reality both the blue and the red team are owned and controlled by the banksters.

Without I. G. Farben there would have been no nazi war machine. And without the partnership of the Rockefellers, WallStreet bankers and their corporations, there would have been no I. G. Farben technical or financial capacity for war.

The Nuremberg trials were a complete farce. All I. G. Farben defendants who were sentenced to prison received extremely light sentences (2 to 8 years!), and even then they were all released early. The Rockefellers and other WallStreet bankers and their corporate managers, are yet to face trial for war crimes and crimes against humanity.

In other words, WWII was a completely manipulated and contrived event. As was WWI, btw. And the same technical and financial backing that the nazis received from the US/Britain was also given to the Bolsheviks in Russia, to Mao in China, to the arab nazis in Hejaz, Nejd, Palestine, etc. All with purpose of extending the anglo-american global bankster empire.

arab nazis?

That anything like "islamo-fascists"

Oh, the names we conjure up for "enemies" even if national socialism (nazis) and fascism are not the same thing.

arab nazis?
==

Yeah, arab nazis, you lowlife faggot shithead. Why you don't you learn a little something, and do a little research into the Ba'ath Party, Hamas, etc.

Mika, thanks for the suggestion. I will do some research (not in Wikipedia) and I'll get back to you. Thanks again for the suggestion.

Wow, A, you really TEED this one up for me!

You ask, "Please define "cool it."

Then you declare, "My posts are logical, well-informed, and often brilliant."

Jeeze - even you should see from that statement that you could do some work on your humility.

Other definitions of cool it:
1. Post less
2. Avoid quoting others out of context
3. Don't think you're an expert on everything
4. Once you've stated your opinion on an issue (say open borders) SHUT UP for a while so other posters can form their own opinions and express them
5. Post less
6. Work on your humility
7. Work on your relationships with females
8. Don't "ACT" all hurt and petulant when things don't go your way
9. Stop thinking all the world should be at your exact level of "divine play" at all times.
10. Print out this list and tape it to your display.

And for God's (god's) sake, let Mila and me try to have a conversation without you butting into it right away and telling us all how to think just like you do.

In other words, cool it.

Anyone else have something to add?

I declare this, "Let's All Help Asoka Day."

Mika, I went to the library and I did some research on Baath. Fascinating stuff.

The Baath Party was founded by a Christian, Michel Aflaq (1910-1989) who was a Syrian writer and political activist, educated in French schools in Syria and at the Sorbonne, of Greek Orthodox extraction, who founded the Ba’ath movement for the ‘resurrection’ of the Arab peoples, with a view to uniting the Arabic-speaking world behind a reforming nationalist ideology, and in opposition to the colonial ventures of the European nation-states.

Aflaq was a defender of free speech, civil rights and secular law, and was briefly, in the 1950s, minister of education in Syria.

He argued in favour of an Arab, as opposed to a merely Muslim, identity, and hoped to reconcile Muslims, Christians and Jews in the foundation of viable jurisdictions in the post-colonial era.

Aflaq’s voluminous writings have a strong undercurrent of attachment to the Christian legacy, and he continued to defend laïcité, as a precondition of reconciliation between the faiths, right up to his death.

Didn't say anything about Baath's Christian founder having anything at all to do with Nazis or anti-semitism or racism.

SOURCE: Palgrave Macmillan Dictionary of Political Thought

The 12:54 PM comment shows an example what stinking, racist khazars are infesting our Government,banking,commerce and entertainment? industry at all levels.

ProCon said: "I declare this, "Let's All Help Asoka Day."

You are too kind, ProCon.

And you are only encouraging me continue posting.

Besides that, you are (wittingly or unwittingly), making Asoka the theme of this Surrealist Vista comment section, instead of focusing on things more important, like the themes expressed in JHK's Surrealist Vista post.

As for humility, I am not important, nor are my thoughts important, nor are my electronically transmitted words important. That is why I can tell networker, or anyone else disturbed by my point of view, please don't read what I say and don't respond to it. It doesn't matter either way to me. This is just play, meaningless play, for me. I enjoy it.

I respect your ability to go 90% vegan BTB. I, unfortunately, have a long way to go. :-(

Here's an article I read yesterday that is relevant to your post.

http://www.nowtoronto.com/news/story.cfm?content=177111

And if you search the Oct 7-13 issue, it is filled with several excellent articles on the state of the fishing industry.

Given that fish/seafood is a staple diet for billions of people, and at the rate of depletion that is occurring it makes one wonder if we (humans) will manage to survive to 2030, never mind mid-century.

The salient question is:

Knowing all this: what in hell's name are we doing?!

E.F. said: "Knowing all this: what in hell's name are we doing?!"

We are working toward a permaculture future which is sustainable and we are not waiting until tomorrow because we can start today wherever we are. Make permaculture your guiding philosophy.

Permaculture is the future. Permaculture is the only way to a sustainable and sane survival. Ww must work with nature, not against it, and things will go better for us.

As for macro-issues like the destruction of the oceans, we can write and speak out and organize and vote for pro-ocean policies.

I went to the Monterey Blue ocean film festival and heard a talk by Jean Cousteau. He is discouraged, especially due to the BP/Gulf contamination, but not a pessimist. We can still act. Don't give up. Keep hope alive, as my friend Jesse says.

Hi, Comrade Asoka.

I took your "brilliant" line to be a joke. Anyway, I laughed.

I suggest reading "Devil's Game" by Robert Dreyfuss, for an eye-opening account of US support for fundamentalist Islam, which didn't start with the mujahadeen in Afghanistan in 1979, but decades before, as a way to counter the Arab Nationalist movement, which was socialist-leaning.

Yes, the US and Israel set up Hamas, to counter Fatah, and Israel now uses Hamas as an excuse to attack Lebanon and the Gaza Strip.

That's a lot like the US funding, training and arming the Afghan muhajadeen, and the ISI, and now using the same people as excuses to attack Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Please stop. (Not you Wage.)

“I would prefer not to.”

SOURCE:
Bartleby the Scrivener / by Herman Melville.

Hi companera Wage,

"Hi, Comrade Asoka.

I took your "brilliant" line to be a joke. Anyway, I laughed."

I'm glad someone has a sense of humor.

:)

Thanks for the book recommendation re: "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" Didn't work out well.

These "people of the Book" (Christians, Jews, Muslims) are going to be the death of us yet... and end all our permaculture advances along with ending us.

Mika, I went to the library and I did some research on Baath. Fascinating stuff.
==

Let me know when through your research prowess, you discover the close connections and affinity with the nazis and the nazi ideology, and why I refer to them as the arab nazis.

Very good, but disgusting article, Enviro. My whole life I've never been interested in fishing because I don't have the patience to just sit in a boat waiting for a bite or standing somewhere for the same reason. But first, I always was concerned about what the hooks did to the fish.

Given that I grew up in Boston where fishing is a major way of life, it was hard to fit in; on top of that, I don't ice skate, another Boston pasttime. I've never in my life eaten lobster or clams! Boy, was I in my own league. Speaking of leagues, what saved me was loving and playing baseball.

I believe that worms (as bait) don't have a central nervous system, so they don't feel pain like we do; I think what we would call worm pain is just a reflexive reaction to damage caused by the hook, and the worm doesn't "feel" it. But I have no intention to personally test that theory.

Finally, I became a vegan when I accompanied my wife at a Florida vegan health spa. I figured I'd try it for a day. After the 1st day was easy, I tried it a 2nd day, etc. My wife, who was a vegetarian, then accomodated me and became a vegan, too. My daughter has always been a vegetarian. So, you see, I was able to become a vegan permanently because of the total support around me.

Yes, the US and Israel set up Hamas, to counter Fatah, and Israel now uses Hamas as an excuse to attack Lebanon and the Gaza Strip.
==

Israel did not set up Hamas, nor did Israel finance Hamas. The only thing that Israel did, is not persecute Hamas prior to learning what Hamas was really about. Of-course, if Israel did persecute Hamas, while Hamas was just running schools, mosques, etc., people would be screeching against Israel about religious persecution.

Networker noded, "All about Vitamin B12 and how the body uses it... Weston A. Price, et al"

From their first paragraph,

"has the approximate (and awesome!) chemical formula of C61-64H84-90N14O13-14PCo"

This nomenclature is archaic and does not meet current (last 15 years) IUPAC standards. Not that it makes any difference, it seems a solid article. But doesn't α-(5,6-dimethylbenzimidazolyl) cobamidcyanide roll off the tongue better?

Its not a bad article.

"Mollusks (clams, oysters, mussels, etc) 3 ounces 84.1 micrograms

Liver, beef, 1 slice 47.9 micrograms

Trout, wild, 3 ounces 5.4 micrograms"

The daily RDA for B12 for adults: 2.4 micrograms.

Therefore a few mussels will supply you with a month's worth of B12, even if you didn't get ANY from the rest of your diet (which you would- bacterial deposition occurs on everything you eat) and assuming that all the appropriate organs in your body are functioning correctly. Does the USA have enough mussels to slaughter to fulfill the world’s B12 needs? Hell yes. But why bother, when B12 is manufactured in commercial bacterial cultures cheaply and efficiently.

It is extremely wasteful, to my mind, to kill an animal for its B12. It is a simple step forward to say it is also wasteful to kill an animal for its protein. Or its fat. Or its carbohydrates. Etc.

The truth is our customary foods are not the best possible foods, they’re simply what was available when no alternative existed. The truth is that humans have a natural capacity and ability to acclimate to different fats, which largely determine “tastiness”. The illusion of preference is simply conditioning of the taste buds to the predominant fats in the diet.

Both authors of this article show a somewhat strong PERSONAL bias toward their cultural food practices and beliefs, which apparently include ingesting large daily quantities of farm animal produce. This kind of in-kind justification of behavior is, to me, solipsistic.

Biochemistry is a complicated subject. But I think it is not a good basis for advocating the legitimacy of traditional food use patterns, especially since what the data really proves is that humans can be perfectly nourished and healthy consuming a mere fraction of their typical intake.

In other words, you cannot find proof of the inherent legitimacy of traditional food use patterns using Biochemistry.

You cannot forge a moral or ethical argument for patterns of consumption with a biochemical framework.

But forget all that- like I said, people eat what they eat because they want to- all other concerns, environmental, personal, medical, or otherwise, are of marginal importance.

I have long thought that the common thread of problems of consumption- resources like oil, soil, and water, populations, space, time and energy, health- they are all problems of appetite.

The real problem is that humans seem very poorly equipped to negotiate with appetite. That this is congenital is a question supported by biochemistry. Its likely that the basal urge to consume is chemically generated. Millions of dollars are poured into research to thwart this urge.

RDA for meat, for protein ingestion, is about 3 ounces per day- a sufficient figure encompassing 95% of all people. But who chooses to restrict caloric intake? Hardly anyone. It takes an extremely powerful will to overcome biology. It takes a powerful will to overcome anything appetite and consumption related.

The fact is that someday, possibly soon, a drug can be designed to treat it. A Will Pill.

Another, more subtle solution would be to amend human DNA to express similar enzymes to the ones bacteria use, in effect, synthesizing our own B12 and other exogenous compounds our body cannot currently make, or, shoring up the body's native ability to recycle it.

Therefore, the degree to which killing and eating animals is ethical will change because it is optional. Customs must change with ethics or any culture in denial tends to bind up and fail.

It is like humanity, our little tribe, is entering new lands and territories. Their customs change value, and survival depends on this. This is a neat historical and anthropological example of the adaptability of our organism to new epics and ages.

Time alone will cull those people who resist changing customs. Others will negotiate successfully and transparently into the new era and adopt the new, successful custom.

Therefore I find the theories about reversion to complete anarchical savagery unlikely. In fact, the reality is that the savages are us. The anarchy is now.

The idea of having a career and free time is a dying custom.

The idea of marriage, lasting forever, and being necessary is a dying custom.

Voting, democracy, all that crap going on right now: dying customs.

Meat eating, 4-wheel SUV driving, Cheez-doodles… dying customs.

The Customs that are survivors are recognizable by their coherence, their lack of anarchical structure.

Science, Medicine, Education, Religion, the military, and Government, universally.

Its funny reading the American response to the rioting and demonstrations in France and Britain. Officially, it is anarchy. In the US, its called domestic terrorism. Politically rioting is a dead end and a costly use of time and energy by people with little of either.

if you say so Mikey...you forgot the vatican
'connection'

Bustin J said:

Its likely that the basal urge to consume is chemically generated ... But who chooses to restrict caloric intake? Hardly anyone. It takes an extremely powerful will to overcome biology. It takes a powerful will to overcome anything appetite and consumption related.

Bustin J, I really enjoyed your post. I would only take issue with this quote above based on my own experiments with fasting and with my permanent adoption of the Fast-5 Lifestyle: http://www.fast-5.com

My experience is that reduced caloric intake is easy to do and I have no trouble at all fasting 19 hours per day, every day, because not taking the first bite means not opening up the limbic hunger (the "I bet-you-can't-eat-just-one" hunger) and lack of hunger makes reduced caloric intake a breeze.

I couldn't do it when I tried to eat 6 little meals or 3 regular meals a day.

It has been very easy with the Fast-5 Lifestyle, which is basically eating within a five hour window and fasting the remainder of the day. No insulin spikes, no leptin spikes, etc. Body rests. No hunger.

Wage, I think you are laboring under a misconception. The US snd Israel didn't "set up" Hamas, and if you think about it, it would make no sense for Israel to have a very hard-line terrorist organization oppose another hard-line terrorist group, both of whom have stated they are committed to Israel's destruction, because then the Israeli's would be fighting 2 groups instead of 1.

Also, Israel is not interested in acquiring Lebanese territory; they could have in 1967 after Lebanon attacked them, but they didn't. And Israel voluntarily ceded the Gaza Strip. They only fight in Lebanon after Hamas has attacked them or acquired a large supply of weapons they are about to use on them.

Last, the US may have armed and trained the Afghan muhajadeen, but only as a means to thwart Russian ambitions there in the '70's. It's all about us getting their oil. It's only about the oil. You want to end the fighting in the mideast? Just take a giant straw and suck up all the oil there. You'd see the US GOOD (get out of Dodge) in the blink of an eye. And we would abandon Israel then, too.

'give back the 6 million jews you helped murder'

clearly the slander of a zionist..ill refrain from reading yr posts henceforth

i wasnt even born in 1945

but i do get taxed by US govt who gives 'foriegn aid'

KCRW is getting alot of buzz this week.
they fired juan but for the wrong reason!

once they reported on an israeli jew who they proudly noted...'had 1000 living descendants'

what the media isnt reporting is how ruth seymore has taken over a college radio staion..kcrw..the crw stands for college radio workshop...yet shes pushed the students out and brought the leftists in.

Bustin J - good post. I agree with what you wrote. I do have a couple of comments.

Regarding marriage, I believe we're genetically hard-wired to pair off, although not necessarily permanently and with the same person. In the future, I see marriage as being entirely a civil matter. It will probably fall under contract law, where marriage is defined by a written contract with terms and conditions; it will probably be for a specific time-period, determined by mutual agreement of the parties when the contract is written up. Upon expiration, the parties will decide if they want to renew the contract. It will not be dependent upon the sexual orientation of the parties.

If our civilization advances without total destruction, as I think it will, scientific discoveries will eliminate the need for the concept of God, and religion will become one of your dying customs.

NPR is so biased to the left that I can't listen to it for very long. We have CNN and Fox with their biases. I'd like to see a popular news media biased in areas that I'm biased in. Differing opinions is fine, but feeling like I'm not crazy because my beliefs are so far out, is nice,too.

And we would abandon Israel then, too.
==

Not after you again set up Jews/Israel for a fall by arming all their arab nazi and jihadi enemies to with all the weapons systems their US petro dollars can buy. Same as you did in 1947-48. If in 1948 Israel could not have acquired weapons from Czechoslovakia, there'd be no Israel today.

clearly the slander of a zionist
==

An asoka brain fart?

"'give back the 6 million jews you helped murder'

clearly the slander of a zionist..ill refrain from reading yr posts henceforth

i wasnt even born in 1945

but i do get taxed by US govt who gives 'foriegn aid'"


Funny, I always thought that a zionist just wanted a return of the original Jewish homeland. I hope you haven't absorbed the UN phoney propaganda that zionism is a form of racism.

I think Mika didn't mean you personally (I hope).

The US government spends your money without you having a say in it, in many ways you wouldn't approve of. Why pick on aid to Israel above others?


you forgot the vatican 'connection'
==

I did not. I never forget. And I never forgive. Ever.

True, but only because the US is a cutthroat capitalist nation which would sell weapons to anyone with the money to buy them. Since the arabs have so much more money than Israel, they would acquire so many more weapons than Israel.

You asked about the money. I told it was old money, because I knew that you knew about the vatican connection.


"I did not. I never forget. And I never forgive. Ever."

Does this apply on a personal level? Like, if an individual does something you don't like to you, you'll never forgive him or her? Just wondering.


the US is a cutthroat capitalist nation
==

It's not. It's a family run business. And one way or another they will have their throat cut.

Does this apply on a personal level?
==

I'm still alive. So no one has yet wronged me in that way. But I do have my tribal affiliation, and when you wrong my tribe, you wrong me.

Q! Q!! Where are you??
==============

Alive and kickin ... but I've had an epiphany:

No one comes to CFN looking to be converted to a different way of thinking. They come looking for their own converts. They come to display their erudition. They come to impress with would-be poetry and to exercise their vocabulary gene. They come for rant-writing lessons from JHK.

In my year and a third on this sight I've accomplished just one thing ... I got Vlad to understand the dash vs the hyphen. But I failed to sway any big-government socialists or grand conspiracy loonies (no need to name names - we all know who they are).

In case you were wondering, I'm in stage one of a two-part clusterfuck recovery program:

1. Cease the futile writing of comments ... after which comes
2. Withdraw from reading the comments of others beginning initially with the utterly inane (e.g. 8M) and work my way eventually to even those with whom I often agree in full or in part (Cash).

I even thought about ceasing to read Kunstler's weekly essays too but I enjoy them too much.

With the time saved I will return to my life-long goal of reading the Franklin Library's 100 greatest books. Based on realistic assumptions I figure I've got 0-15 years and based on the fucked up state of the world that's OK with me.

I am reminded at this moment of an old SNL skit where David Spade plays a male flight attendant and as the passengers are exiting the craft he says to each with a disingenuous smile and obvious disdain, "Buh bye."

Q said: "I'm in stage one of a two-part clusterfuck recovery program..."

I'm in a 12-step CFNers Anonymous program. My name is Asoka and I am large and contain multitudes.

Q, did you see the article about your bank, BoA?

FDIC Called On To Put Bank Of America Into Receivership

"We should remove the senior leadership of the banks and replace them with experienced bankers with a reputation for integrity and competence, i.e., the honest officers that quit or were fired because they refused to engage in fraud," Black and Wray write.

They suggest starting with Bank of America, which they call "a 'vector' spreading the mortgage fraud epidemic throughout much of the Western world."

Looming large among Bank of America's sins is its purchase of mortgage giant Countrywide Financial long after it became clear that the company had engaged in massive fraud.

Even the extremely slow-to-anger New York Fed, which bought billions of securitized mortgages that Bank of America improperly represented as fully documented and conforming to underwriting standards, is now demanding that it buy some of them back.

It's still not too late to change over to your sister-in-law's credit union. :)

Why pick on aid to Israel above others?
==

Actually, I prefer that he does. In fact, I would encourage everyone here (as personal favor to me) to call or write their representatives and urge them to stop all aid to Israel. In fact, if americans could organize a nationwide boycott of Israel, it would be even better. This will help Israelis and Jews to educate themselves about the true nature of the US, and force them to finally reassess their relations with this evil empire.

Mika said: "Israel doesn't have any nukes. Not 400, not 200, not 20, not 2. Nada. Anyone that says otherwise is mindlessly parroting CIA propaganda, and is little more than a CIA stooge. "

In September 1986, Mordecai Vanunu, an Israeli arms technician who had worked at the secret Dimona site for eight years, provided the world with the first detailed account of Israel's nuclear weapon progress.

Vanunu provided almost 60 color photographs to the London Sunday Times of what he said was Israel's underground bomb factory. He also described Israel's nuclear weapon production techniques in an account accepted by weapons experts on both sides of the Atlantic.

According to Vanunu's data, the solid plutonium spheres for Israel's nuclear weapons weighed 4.4 kilograms. He also said that Israel had produced 100 to 200 advanced fission bombs by 1986, had mastered a thermonuclear design, and appeared to have a number of thermonuclear bombs ready for use.

and you felt unloved! how wrong you were...
and:
'I got Vlad to understand the dash vs the hyphen'
as in?

Well, I'll be Billy-be-damned, Q, if great minds don't think alike!

(chortles)

I could pretty much have written the same post as you, at least up until the final 2 paragraphs.

Only, instead of me saying this:

But I failed to sway any big-government socialists or grand conspiracy loonies (no need to name names - we all know who they are).

I would say instead, "But I failed to sway any authoritarian followers or shortsighted conventional-wisdom-addled Social Darwinists (no need to name names - we all know who they are)."

But the sentiments are basically the same.

asoka, you supremely dishonest resident impediment googling cut-and-pasting rim-job, it perfectly stands to reason that you would be quick with a reply to try to draw Q into a conversation when he stated he was trying to stop. You really are a wormy smarmy bastard, aren't you?

Don't do it, Q. Don't take his bait and respond to him. Don't respond to me and don't respond to him. That would be the wise move.

We've had our one shot each of CFN posting
"methadone", now it's time to go back to cold turkey, eh?

And while you're at it, I bet Franklin Library has a nice collection of Thorstein Veblen for you to read.

Finally, thanks for telling us who you are, an old version of a snotty, snooty David Spade character. I KNEW you reminded me of someone, but I just couldn't place it. Thanks for filling in that particular blank.

You really should check out the movie "PCU". It might bring you back to fond memories of your younger self in college through the magic of David's thespian craft.

Good luck on your recovery, you old douchebag.

:P

'Conservatives need to think of other people sometimes'
liberals need to think of the rights of non liberals most times.....

from fire andrea mitchell


The chickens are really coming home to roost on the disgusting hypocrisy of the progressive liberal Democrats. BTW, where is the NAACP or Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton coming to Juan Williams’ defense over the NPR firing? It’s been widely reported that Juan Williams was NPR’s only black journalist. If that’s the case, then they now have ZERO African-American journalists! NAACP silent. Jackson and Sharpton, silent. But some progressive liberal XM Radio host hack isn’t silent. He went so far as to call Juan Williams a “Negro Apologist!”

asia, NAACP has been concerned with much more important issues that affect the whole country, like detailing the racism in the TeaParty and its ties to violent extremists. They have issued a report on Tea Party members and websites:

The TeaParty.org faction is led by the executive director of the Minuteman Project, a nativist organization that has in the past been associated with the murder of migrant Mexican workers as part of its vigilante “border operations”.

Roan Garcia-Quintana, “advisor and media spokesman” for the 2010 Tax Day Tea Party and member of ResistNet, also serves on the National Board of Directors of the Council of Conservative Citizens (CofCC), the lineal descendent of the Council of White Citizens.

In Texas, Wood County Tea Party leader Karen Pack was once listed as an “official supporter” of Thom Robb’s Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, a modern-day white supremacist organization.

In addition to the report, the NAACP has been running Tea Party Tracker, a website that monitors instances of racism and other forms of extremism within the Tea Party movement. You can visit it at www.teapartytracker.org

Dimona is not a secret site. Everyone in Israel knows about Dimona and knew about Dimona already 50 years ago when its construction was made public in the early 1960s. As to Vanunu and his Technicolor™ WMD photographs, I'll just refer you to Colin Powell and his Technicolor™ WMD photographs.


Colin Powell has not been held in solitary confinement for years to prevent his communicating his knowledge of WMDs.

Vanunu has been repeatedly arrested and held prisoner in Israel, charged with talking to "foreigners". Maybe he is being persecuted for what he knows about Israel's nuclear weapons.

Btw Asoka, any luck with your research on the arab nazis and their connections to the german nazis, or are you still struggling with that one? Is Google not working for you this time around?

Vanunu has been repeatedly arrested and held prisoner in Israel
==

He's been repeatedly telling slanderous lies. Fortunately, the Israeli government has the capacity and the will to do something about it. Unlike the UN with regards to Colin Powell.

Why can't we just eat anymore? Humans are the most interesting and diverse creatures on the planet (from my point of view), so why would there be AN appropriate diet? People can live solely on vegetables, but they can also live solely on meat, or blood and milk. Our physiology has no problem with eating insects, fruit, grains, dairy, honey, you name it, we can either eat it or feed it to an animal that can turn it into something we like a lot better.

There are nearly 7 billion people on this planet, all looking for calories, except for a few of privilege bickering about what time of day is appropriate for ingesting those demon calories.

Let me tell you guys something. "Low Fat" isn't a very common food descriptor throughout history, not a pleasant one anyway. Neither is "Low Calorie" or Low Carb". These are anomolies of over-indulged high energy societies, and they probably won't be around for much longer.

Which is good news, because I'm tired of people telling me fish is bad, but spirulina is da bomb. Especially after 5.

I like this thing called food. I like to eat it in the car. I like to eat it at the bar. I do not like this fascist chat. I do not like this place we're at!

Sorry for the dangling participle, but we're only having this discussion because we are the masters of acquiring energy/food and turning it into more humans. At some point the surplus (of whichever, take your pick) reached perverse levels, and we ended up with a bunch of strangers sitting around sending electronic messages to each other about how retarded the others' food choices were.

Come on, guys. If we're talking about how much energy a kind of food requires to produce, or cook, and how that will influence the kind of food system you develop for yourself, then that's one thing. But just to judge each other for piety's sake? Really?

Just so you know, Hancock, I miss your posts WAY more than I miss Q's posts.

Do you really have to convert anyone?

Can't we just have conversations? Like in real life?

Tripp said: "There are nearly 7 billion people on this planet, all looking for calories, except for a few of privilege bickering about what time of day is appropriate for ingesting those demon calories."

When TSHTF and the availability of calories is severely reduced, having trained one's physical body and spiritual body in the art of fasting, or living for years on reduced caloric intake, will be a critical survival skill. You demean it by calling it "bickering"

I echo Wage.

I miss your intelligent posts, Hancock. I do not miss Q's OCD correction of spelling and punctuation.

You are welcome back anytime, Hancock, but do what you must do, even if that is abstention from CFN.

CORRECTION:
You demean sharing of experiences about sustainable practice by calling it "bickering"

New York Times, 10/21/10

"New Way to Help Chickens Cross to Other Side"

"In the new system, birds will arrive at the processing plant in special containers that will go directly into a chamber to which carbon dioxide is slowly added, displacing some of the oxygen and making the birds unconscious."

"The animal rights group People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals has been pushing chicken processors for years to switch to gas stunning systems, in part because it does not believe that electrical stunning works."

Hobbes ACTUALLY said, "There will be a warre against all. There will be a Human Purina Food Chowe. Signse of collapse are all arounde."

"...signs of immanent collapse are plentiful - Lets Eat!"

Trip ripped, "I'm not too keen on this Purina Human Chow idea. I get the feeling proponents of this insanity don't know their way around the kitchen so well."

Lets see, there's the Food processor, the Refrigerator, electric oven, the gas range, the can opener, the blender, the mixer, the ice cream maker, the freezer, the instant-on hot water, purified water, garbage disposal, and the microwave.

All these energy consuming devices!

If food came out of a tube we wouldn't have to cook it. What if we didn't even have to refrigerate it?

Let's say that we need need to reduce resource use while growing the population exponentially (as currently). What solution scales exponentially to equalize this gap?

... ?

Bacteria.

Ok, next:

Beantown farted, "... I have very mixed feelings about illegal immigration. On the one hand I freely accept them; on the other, I know we are living on the borderland of scarce food and water and other essentials, and I don't want myself and my family to suffer because a lot of people are illegally taking these things away from me.

So which side do I support?"

How did the illegal immigrant get so far up your personal Maslow's heirarchy that you can't decide if the welfare of your family is worth taking a position?

First of all, why do we call them immigrants? They are refugees. People don't undertake hard journeys from desirable places to labor, unless under some kind of duress.

Mexico has significant drawbacks- problems America does not have- yet- like overpopulation, out of control criminal gangs, corruption, environmental damage, and a country right next door willing to look the other way while siphoning off all that chaos.

America is relatively cool.

The law of desirability and population movement:

Populations move from areas of low desirability to areas of high desirability. A low relative population is considered to be a facet of that desirability. Therefore, the rate of pressure is proportional to the differential between relative areas.

The question is, does more Mexican refugees make where I live (America) a more or less desirable place to live?

The shorthand is to simply ask, is this making Mexico better? Is this making America better?

By framing the question in a way that encompasses the class of people you belong to, you insulate the nearer classes of people you care about, like your family.

Most people actually recognize that it does not make America better. Asked recently what Mexican immigrants bring to America and Vicente Fox said, and I quote: "Food and Family Values". Yeah, like we didn't have those things. Do you have those things, Beantown? Beacause millions of immigrants would like to help you out. I believe you can hire a consultant down at the Home Depot Monday mornings at 7:30am.

Where I live, over 90% of the people I see on the street (walking, saving the Earth) that I pass I cannot communicate to. They don't speak English. As such, they don't acknowlege me. At all.

When you get a whole family, in traditional garb (from wherever), you get a grab bag of mask-like expressions. The only engagement you get is from their children who stare with something between fear and wonder. Its not the America I grew up in (tm). Its bizarre. And mostly, the reason we are stagnant on this point is simply that white people fly by in their cars.

You cannot see this if you live in isolated cul-de-sacs and travel by car. What I see walking around everywhere is the illegal immigrant "fear face"- usually among the less-well off looking. The better-off looking immigrant wears what I like to call the "I'm-pretending-to-be-invisible" face.

Far from "living on the borderland of scarce food and water" these people are relatively successful and affluent. After all, when you don't pay taxes the car payment is affordable. They get te security of having several cash labor industries catering to them, who in turn compete with legal companies and the domestic labor market. They are living so high on the Hog from their perspective that your assessment is laughable. When they cut loose they get to go home to a warm place among their people, a home, a family, a culture of big families and no condom use, and with all that cash, live like Kings, bringing in more Wal-Marts and Ford Mo Cos. When they've spent it, they just pop over the border again.

What would it be like to have options like that? As an American, I can only wonder. I suppose I could try going down there and getting by as a Punta-ass Gringo with a giant target on my forehead.


KulturCritic,

Your thoughts kind of converged with my
thoughts, conveyed above, about the
"educational-industrial complex". Our
educational administrators, nationwide,
are not trying to keep education alive
through broad-based education modeled
after the Quaker tradition. They are
binding education to industrial funders
who, in turn, want to turn America into
a race of mindless ANTS who know which
cog, gear, belt, or hose of which mechanism
of the industrial leviathan a person is
supposed to plug into for their very survival.

It's like Fritz Lang's "Metropolis" where
people are such slaves to mechanism that they
are the hands of all the public clocks. That
movie was made in 1905 but it is scary prophetic.

You can see that the tight little unity of
school, industry, and television are turning
people into CARICATURES of individuals. All
they have that's "individual" now are their
BRAND NAME CHOICES. A female student of mine,
in all seriousness, chooses her friends based
upon their choices of sports teams. When I
incredulously asked "Are you serious?!" she
seemed incensed that I would demean bonding
on such a basis. Of course, sports teams are
just brand names, too, and that's why you see
even men over 40 wearing pro sports uniforms
... something that used to be inappropriate
beyond about the age of 17 a mere two decades
ago.

I see people bonding over which brand of
cigarettes they smoke, similarity of tattoo
art, shoe brands (Hip skateboarder?? Gotta
wear Vans), head wear, shaved heads, etc..

As T.S. Eliot wrote ... "We are the hollow men,
we are the stuffed men". Where have the human
beings gone?? They LOOK like human beings but
are like Golem ... Hebrew mechanistic monsters
that have the shape of a human but the absence
of a SOUL.

The alarming speed with which people are losing
their very souls is the big surprise. Even in a
town like Palo Alto, allegedly an "intellectual"
place what with Stanford right up the street,
the few people still capable of non-commercial
idiosyncracy are like the huddled few in the
corner.

I feel like Gene Wilder in the American Film
Theater version of "The Rhinoceros" where the
townspeople, one by one, turn into Rhinos
(Ionesco's metaphor for people losing their
humanity). At the end, Gene Wilder, realizing
he's one of the few humans left, stares
listlessly into infinity as Zero Mostel tells
him that there are few people left. In
that play, the human race dies through ATTRITION.

E.

Hi E.,

In high school I remember a teacher discussing the idea of teaching to the renaissance man (meaning a very broad base of knowledge) as opposed to churning out "good technicians".

I guess it's just another way to put walls around people.

(Love t.s.elliot)

Beantown Bill,

What I would really like to see from news is just the facts, M'am.

The other day I was watching T.B. Pickens on Morning Joe. He was touting his energy agenda telling the folks out there in television land how his approach would be all-American resources, American jobs, etc...

But, guess who's coming to Texas.
Last week I found an article originally published in the Houston Chronicle that I posted a part of on this site.
It's about how Cnooc Ltd. of China will be getting a 1/3 interest in Texas oil and gas fields and they plan to invest "$2.16 billion for a chunk of Chesapeake's assets in the Eagle Ford, a broad oil and gas play that runs roughly from southwest of San Antonio to the Mexican border. CNOOC also will provide up to $1.1 billion more to cover drilling costs"..

They want to learn more about fracking (groan) to develop their own resources at home.

The public relations firm (a branch of Marsteller) says Americans are ready for the Chinese investment as they need an infusion of cash. It's being played as a real win-win scenario.

Can you leave the spin on the side, please.


"If food came out of a tube we wouldn't have to cook it. What if we didn't even have to refrigerate it?"

There's plenty of REAL food that doesn't have to be refrigerated: eggs, garden produce, fruit, dried fruit, butter, bread, fermented dairy products, even meat, dried, salted, cured.

It's depressing that you have so little belief in your own species. Either they're too dumb to "get" permaculture, or too outside of nature to adapt to declining energy in a useful way. Neither of which is very likely, so I'll not waste any more time on your depressing psychosis.

As it’s the weekend...

(While we all keenly await his-indoors next well honed piece)

I think we should have some light entertainment and a break from permokulture this v anti-consumerist that and immigrants of whichever religious order, tribe or ethnicity lauding or bashing... though oft amusing for the wrong reasons it is *sniggers*

So these two ditties courtesy of John Robb’s excellent blog....

First off the villains of the piece....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2DRm5ES-uA&feature=youtu.be

Interesting this, as recently a chap named Dr. Crosthwaite claims his anthropological study of city investors & traders found evidence of masochistic satisfaction in running up losses - the modern-day equivalent to the traditional native american practice of ‘Potlatch’ - a ritual ceremony in which the chiefs of rival tribes competed to destroy ever greater quantities of their own possessions as an expression of power and importance.

And then this piece, just to prove the kids aren’t all as dumb as we’d like to imagine they are - a movie of hope and real vision...

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1248388728/remade-the-rebirth-of-the-maker-movement

Bee seeing you....

Q,

Glad to see you're prioritizing. You have a realistic view of things (it squares with my own). Too many of my own age group (boomers) have this delusion that they'll live to be a hundred plus, that 60 is the new 40 or 30, and all bushwah. But the clock ticks remorselessly and you never know when your time is up.

I mentioned in other posts that my wife narrowly dodged a bullet last year (colon cancer). To all outward appearances she was healthy. But she had a growth that would have killed her in a couple years. You just never know.

That nightmare of not knowing (a couple of months between the colonoscopy, the surgery and then getting the all clear) put the issue right in front of us: we're aging so do what we have to/want to and do it now.

About thirty years ago I sat in on a seminar on investing for retirement. The seminar leader said that, based on current demographic data, 1/3 of the people in the room (all in our 20's/early 30s) would never make it to retirement. Everyone was amazed, myself included. Medical science progressed since then but so has obesity so I'll bet the mortality stat is still in the ballpark.

But boomers are still trying to figure out what they want to be when they grow up, they're in their 50s and still up to their asses in debt. This when they should be putting away dough for retirement (2/3 of us will make it after all), plus you have the spectacle of younger people in their late 30s, early 40s still thinking about whether or not to settle down and raise a family.

The biological clock is every bit as remorseless as that mechanical or electric thing in your kitchen that flashes the passing seconds, hours, minutes and it's not waiting for anyone to make up their minds. I'm not a doctor but from what I've read for a woman trying to get pregnant in her late 30s it's a crapshoot, in her 40s it's a lottery. Both hubby and wife have to be mindful that the older they are when they start a family the higher the likelihood that one or both won't survive to see their kids into adulthood.

You were a bean counter and so was I and you and I both know that there was no more valuable resource in that line of work than time. It was your friend but it was your enemy. Same thing applies to life. Good for you for recognizing that this is a time limited gig. Happy reading.

Ozone

Interesting point you raise... but I am thinking about the sorts of relations that obtain between people with some bond of kinship or consanguinity and a relatively deep mutual respect from living within close proximity, physically and psychologically, to one another. I am thinking that this state of anarchy, if you will, was not a state of lawlessness in the sense of class licentiousness, but freedom from "impartial" laws whose foundation rests on the assumption of total anonymity with respect to those whom it judges.

Does that help?

EEE:

I hear you loud and clear. I had the very same students 2 years ago when I returned briefly to the USA to teach at my old alma mater in upstate NY. Incredble. And the problem is the educational system - the Institution - is the chief arm of the State, as Nietzsche says "that coldest of cold monsters"!!

Thanks, Yoda! And please don't link permaculture and Asoka too tightly. He seems to get his biggest thrills from getting under people's skin, and I will openly admit that he is under mine right now.

Why can't we just eat anymore? Humans are the most interesting and diverse creatures on the planet (from my point of view), so why would there be AN appropriate diet? People can live solely on vegetables, but they can also live solely on meat, or blood and milk. - Tripp

Agreed.

Waaaay back I was reading about a group of marathoners that were favoured to either win or get in the medals in the 1984 Olympic marathon.

My memory of the names is foggy but one lived on junk food, one Japanese fellow lived on a diet of fish, rice and beer, one adhered to the Pritiken diet and one ate a lot of steak and eggs. All pushed their bodies to the outer limits of endurance, all were national champions and all had won major marathons.

So it just goes to shows you that the human body is pretty flexible on what it can live on. A traditional Inuit diet in the arctic that's high in fish and meat without much vegetable matter and no grain is a whole lot different than a traditional mediterranean diet that's pretty mcuh the opposite. Yet both Inuit and mediterranean peoples survive.

A depressingly realistic post, Cash. Unfortunately, I'm even older than the boomers, but just barely. I've been feeling the effects of aging the last few years. I've lost flexibility, which I can only regain when I'm exercising regularly to loosen me up, my hair is thinner, I've gained some weight (although I'm not fat), I just found out I've got 25% hearing loss in both ears, but for now I don't need a hearing aid, etc., etc.

But, like the boomers, I do plan to live to 100. My father made it to 96, and my mother is still alive at 97, so at least I have some basis for optimism. I am realistic enough to know, however, that the boom can drop at any second, so I live my life day to day as much as I can. Living day to day is not easy for me because I know what's happening in our country and in the world, and to survive requires a lot of time, effort and thinking. I can't afford to retire, but a lot of my friends already have, and sometimes I get jealous seeing them relaxing or vacationing all the time, or getting out of the cold climate and spending winters someplace warm.

As a member of my generation, I know I bear my share of responsibility for the state of the world. I've emotionally accepted that I will be working the rest of my life, which in many ways is ok, but I sure would like to rest. Now I have the distinct pleasure of watching my friends and relatives dying away. Jeez, I better stop this post; I'm getting myself depressed.

Kulturcritic said:

the problem is the educational system - the Institution - is the chief arm of the State, as Nietzsche says "that coldest of cold monsters"!!.

Yes and no. Increasingly there is a movement in education toward integral or holistic education and this is even happening in state supported institutions like our local community college, which is modifying its curriculum to address body, mind, and spirit in an integral fashion, preparing students for the Long Emergency.

The good news is that the principles and practices of holistic education in the U.S. are similar to those of permaculture. Permaculture and holistic education have many commonalities in terms of principles, values, and practices.

Permaculture adopts the ethics of care which recognizes the interrelatedness of whole systems. Holistic educators share similar principles to permaculture in relation to natural inclination to care for others and the community.

It is all good and unfolding as it should. There is much to be glad about, and much to celebrate.

God, now I'm depressed, Bill. But remember this, what your generation did, and the one after you, was perfectly natural. IF you assume that we are animals, subject to natural law, then it is very much in our nature to use up all the free energy in our ecosystem as fast as we can turn it into more humans. Oil is about as free as energy gets. So, way more humans than the planet can feed without oil is the result. I understand you believe we will hold the "progressivist" line, and somehow push back all of our environmental debt, perhaps colonizing other worlds even.

But I think there's a saving grace for us consumers buried in the up and down pattern of energy availability. I believe that contraction away from this seperateness from nature back toward the planet's background energy level will have layers of rewards and unexpected synergies to discover along the path. I tend to view the last 70-ish years as time segregated from Earth, and a time that will probably not be as fondly remembered as we assume it will be. Who will miss the amber bottles of high-tech pills when we have health again?

Problem for me, at my age, though is that I will probably be involved in the population die-back phase, even if you're not. That's a lot of sobering weight to face down as a father of 2 very young children, so I understand the tendency to hope for and see evidence of technological salvation on the way. Just like I understand why so many people believe in heaven. But as an ecologist who scrutinizes the situation every day, I just don't see it being all that plausible.

And in the long view that's a good thing I think. For all parties involved.

"It is all good and unfolding as it should. There is much to be glad about, and much to celebrate."

And at least as much to be serious and sober about. Between here and the happy happy joy joy you predict will be a lot of sacrifice. Best to be adults about that fact I think.

There water in the glass is the same for both of us.

You can choose to see the glass as half empty.

I choose to see the glass as half full.

CORRECTION
The water in the glass is the same for both of us.

You can choose to see the glass as half empty.

I choose to see the glass as half full.

"the happy happy joy joy you predict"

Read my post again, Tripp. All my verbs are in the present tense. I am describing reality as it is now unfolding. I am not "predicting" anything.

I repeat:

"It is all good and unfolding as it should. There is much to be glad about, and much to celebrate."

On a different, but at least as interesting note, I wanted to relate some advice from George Washington. Seems our first president was more of a visionary than we knew. Alarmed by the amount of labor and loss of forest involved in the manufacture of split-rail fences, he advocated planting honey locust seeds 6" apart, so that "when they get any age on them, they form an impenetrable barrier capable of staunching any escalade [incursion of predators]." Or something to that effect.

Black locust offers a better poultry fodder. And of course you can copse locust very effectively, producing not just mulch, goat browse, and poultry forage, but rot-resistant posts and firewood too in longer rotations. Both species (from different genera) are top shelf honeybee food. Both have long hard thorns. Nothing bigger than a rat would come through a 3 year old locust fence planted that closely, and the rat would have a tough time a couple years later. I have a mental picture of my future garden fences developing.

Who knew the General was so full of practical advice?

"I am describing reality as it is now unfolding. I am not "predicting" anything."

Please stop pretending that your reality supercedes the reality of all others. I'm happy you're happy, but at some point in the excessive celebration you reduce yourself to a shallow braggart. Particularly when you realize, and you should, how many people out there are undergoing lifestyle-crushing new circumstances at home. It's like proclaiming that the recession is over when more and more people are losing their jobs every day. That gets old too. I mean, just look at the steady parade of new handles here at CFN. These people aren't coming here to praise the system. I think you're the only one here who is, and I think a lot of people are annoyed by it.

So please, pretty please, cool it, man.

"Does that help?" -K.C.

Yes, that makes it even clearer. :o)

For some reason that last para. set me off on that "hedonistic" tangent.
Signed,
The Wanderer ;o)

----

Trip's nip slipped, "If food came out of a tube we wouldn't have to cook it. What if we didn't even have to refrigerate it?"

There's plenty of REAL food that doesn't have to be refrigerated..."

My point is simply that the end-product of a campaign to reduce human consumption to acceptable levels for a planet with 14 billion people, while holding out some reserve for nature, is going to produce alternatives that are defined by certain characteristics:

1. Reduced labor
2. Reduced soil footprint.
3. Higher concentration of quality.
4. Lower energy costs for transport and storage.
5. Lower cost per calorie in mannufacture.

What is that going to look like? That is the substance of my analysis and imagination. Otherwise, we absolutely wreck the planet and make it uninhabitable for every large living thing, as you know.

In WWII the troops were on a highly restricted diet. They caught the occasional squirrel or frog to supplement their protein. The manufactured food products from the state were not ideal. What got them through was pluck and humor, not withering nostalgia for the impossible luxuries of yesteryear.

"It's depressing that you have so little belief in your own species. Either they're too dumb to "get" permaculture, or too outside of nature to adapt to declining energy in a useful way. Neither of which is very likely, so I'll not waste any more time on your depressing psychosis."

I don't know if they're too dumb to get permaculture. I do know that the average person is pretty simple. They want to get by a little, they don't know alot, and have little power to change their circumstances. The current ethos is that you have to be fucking exceptional just to have a decent life. Otherwise you get kicked in the head repeatedly until you fall off the bus into the ditch.

When I advocate the expungement of illegal immigrants, I am advocating for my fellow "dumb" Americans who are the real vicitms of the upper and middle class elite's bleeding heart (liberal) and corporate whore (conservative) de facto support of the disenfranchisement of poor Americans.

Its totally fucked a generation of young people who didn't necessarily want to spend their lives behind a cash register. The skilled trades were a safety valve, and the politicos and their constituents destroyed it so that money could flow to the college pros at the top of the heap.

That covers the politcal and social aspect, heres the biological: an IQ of 100 is not impressive. If you understand statistics, you quickly realize this means at least half the population is even less intelligent than the average.

It's very un-PC to say people aree dumb. Its easier to say they have learning disabilities. Its un-PC to suggest that we genetically engineer people to be more intelligent. Its easier to diagnose them with psychiatric disorders, administer drugs, and force them through a humiliating gauntlet of school. Its un-PC to say the average person is too dumb to innovate and be useful for business. Its easier to lock them out of ANY kind of decent trade or livable wage until they are kicked onto the unemployment rolls or imprisoned.

I don't see how we are going to force the vast majority of normally-equipped people to "adapt to energy in a useful way" while training them in permaculture, and at the same time keeping the same keeping patterns of food production, and then extend this initiative globally. People largely don't own land. Ag or Permaculture doesn't provide a livable wage or income or food surplus.

It seems as if any slice of humanity that wants to survive it is going to either have to sterilize 90% of the population, put them all in ovens, or somehow find a practical way of feeding them at a level of energy far below the current standard. Since the first two options are abhorrent, we are stuck with the third.

Now, as to your insipid sentimentalism about food, let me remind you of the 1,000,000,000 people currently going hungry today. Are you going to sit there and tell me they don't deserve to eat, if they can't have conventional food? Do you think they would turn their noses up at delicious strawberry and beef flavored, nutrient and vitamin rich, proteinaceous food paste squeezed from a tube if the alternative is starvation?

Extending this argument to the planet as a whole and its pernicious and worsening problems of soil and water, are you going to tell me that, only to make us feel all warm and fuzzy, that highly efficient food and intact ecosystems and environments isn't preferable to the alternative of destructive agricutlure and food systems driven by insatiable population growth?

People are friggin' dumb, man. Its not my fault- its not theirs either. Apparently its God's fault.

I'm an advocate for aggressive human genetic engineering to jack us up to some level commensurate with the technology we are developing and using. The alternative is disaster. This the keyhole you keep talking about.

At the very least we should develop the technology to make women more attractive.

cash registered, "I'm not a doctor but from what I've read for a woman trying to get pregnant in her late 30s it's a crapshoot, in her 40s it's a lottery. Both hubby and wife have to be mindful that the older they are when they start a family the higher the likelihood that one or both won't survive to see their kids into adulthood."

The risks of waiting to have children are totally overblown. The "lottery" you're talking about is a creeping, marginal statistical chance. Its been overblown by the media, hysterical women's magazines, and infected the popular culture thoroughly.

I for one advocate responsible motherhood- that is, having some maturity when the kid is born so that you can actually raise them. Having a responsible, mature partner to provide the kid with some kind of accumulated wisdom.

The current fear-mongering is scaring the uterus-bearing half of the population into desperate choices. They tend to get knocked up and decide to have the child at 21 because they have been scared shitless by the media on virtue of the difference of a 0.01% chance going to 0.02% by their thirties.

Young women are fucking dumber than rocks. You average woman in her 20s does not have the depth of character to be a good mother, nor the partner, nor the resources, nor the wisdom.

What a clusterfuck. When children are the victims, I feel I have to be harsh. I know so many dumb hoes with kids its ridiculous. Women today are man-trapping sluts. When they want to get off the train and relax, around their late 20s when they realize that WORK is WORK, they decide "its time" (listening to their biological clocks- yeah right- its as foolproof as their famous "intuition") and find whatever disposable SOB is within arm's reach to inflict the spectacle of a fat, degenerate, single mother on welfare pushing her dazed and confused kid around the mall. These women raise their children in an appalling atmosphere of illogic and stupidity. What a clusterfuck.

...Nope, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anywhich, anywhere, but a descriptor of political realities is sometimes very helpful and forewarning.
Here's one for you 'n me, Tripp...

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article26658.htm

Not only is Chris Hedges a talented writer and speaker, he's also seen a lot of very bad shit close up and has a good sensibility as to the causes and consequences. I'm very respectful of his views of "the beast". Geez, even Mika might find [some of] this lecture absorbing and accurate.

I ASK YOU ALL THIS...CAN ROBOTS DO THE FARMING?

THIS IS FROM ASOKA POST...
'NAACP has been concerned with much more important issues that affect the whole country, like detailing the racism in the TeaParty and its ties to violent extremists'

hhahaha ..Asoka driftin in the wind.hoist by his own petard..
he of the 'open borders, welcomes all muslims to the usa'

what crap i hear on NPR is ian masters demonizing white christians and warning of ' the next terror strike' from them...
this was like a year ago....how wrong he was!!
like mayor bloomberg he just didnt know it was muslim terror in times square. and a christian who went to the police.

earth to asoka..what concerns the leftists at NPR is not the #1 issue [open borders and its consequences] for US in the USA but their own leftist crap.

and you felt unloved! how wrong you were...
and:
'I got Vlad to understand the dash vs the hyphen'
as in?

the old pix of santa ive seen were him in many colors.
some see santa as more anti Christianity from dutch atheists i believe..if vlad doesnt have this info im sure he can dig it up.

as far as me being ' plugged in and fickle' [ i cant find the post] well...
cutting my head [or those poor birds heads] off doesnt make you any taller.

Tripp, you have 2 little children. If I were your age, I probably would give 2nd thought to having any myself. How do you cope knowing that terrible times will be coming, and maybe before your children are old enough to get by in the world themselves?

You know, I am a pretty busy guy and one of the reasons I'm on this blog is because it forces me to stop, think and organize my thoughts. But I haven't given a lot of time to actually working the numbers concerning solutions to our resource problems. That population is the primary issue, to me, is obvious.

Available space is not the problem; a long time ago I read somewhere that the entire human race could live inside a one cubic mile cube-habitat. With more people now, the dimensions would be a little bigger. The issue with regard to population is that with almost 7 billion people, we are consuming resources at a faster rate than we can replace them. This includes farmlands, forests, and the imbalances we're creating in the biosphere.

I'm thinking we have the ability through the immediate and intermediate future to change the equation so that replacement becomes greater than consumption.

Where I have a problem is concerning planet Earth, not the human race. Through successful technological advancement we can substantially increase Earth's carrying capacity. But the world is not infinite, and eventually, even with unlimited resouces, we will reach Earth's limit. So in effect, science and technology just kicks the can down the road - like what we have been doing with the US economy.

I expect the limit will be reached far enough in the future that we and our children will not have to face it. By that time, with so much progress, humans hopefully will be inhabiting other worlds, so we won't go extinct. But for those living here, voluntary or involuntary permanent population control or population downsizing has to occur. It's in the mathematics and is unavoidable. I think the difference between you and me is that you believe TSHTF a lot sooner than I think it will. And I have thoughts on how we'll deal with it, but that's for another post.

Tripp said: "...form an impenetrable barrier capable of staunching any escalade [incursion of predators]."

Besides your practical advice I now know how Cadillac got the name of their huge SUV.

BTB said:

...the entire human race could live inside a one cubic mile cube-habitat.

And what a delightful cubic mile that place would be.

Makes me long for one of numbnuts Eightm's Zeppelins on Jupiter:
We need huge projects by governments and private corporations solar system size projects, like trillions of skyscrapers on Venus, trillions of Zeppelins on Jupiter and Saturn, trillions of huge Ocean Liners on Saturn and Jupiter since they are gas - ocean planets and we need to colonize them, and we need huge population growth to colonize the galaxy.

Speaking of numbnuts...

The point I was trying to make is not that the whole human race live in a big cube, but that there is space enough on Earth for more people, but not enough resources to support them.

Hi ozone. I read "The Illusion of Empire" by Chris Hedges, and found it to be a good representation of what's going in the country. It's always been interesting to go back & read magazine articles & books written in the past talking about the then current situation, especially when you read it from the advantage of the future. There are always some people who can clearly see what's going on, Chris Hedges is one of them.

Asia contended, "I ASK YOU ALL THIS...CAN ROBOTS DO THE FARMING?"

Yeah, I don't see why they can't. Sexy robots, hopefully.

"I expect the limit will be reached far enough in the future that we and our children will not have to face it."

This is as common a thought as any out there, and pretty much sums up the difference in the way I think vs. you, Bustin J, and others, with perhaps 8M being the extreme of the group. The "solutions" you guys propose are simply a continuation of what got us here. More technology, more people, more specialization, more engineered solutions, more uniformity. Precisely the trajectory we've been on for the past 10,000 years, until now.

But it seems like anyone older than I am is sort of shooting for an "I'll be dead before it's a problem" outcome. By your own admission, you're OK with providing for your children and grandchildren's needs off the planet's capital, the interest being long since spent. All the while freely admitting that yes, indeed the place will fall apart, once I'm gone, and that's just too bad, I guess.

That's not what the other permies and I are doing. We recognize the same threats you guys do, only perhaps on a more pressing timeframe, as you admitted (an ecologist might invoke the Precautionary Principle here), and we are willing to change our consumptive habits in radical ways. My ultimate goal in life is for my family of 4 to live a carbon negative life, cradle to grave accounted for all of us. And I know how to make that happen, again fully accounted for. At this point in history I'm not sure anything else really matters.

That's why I'm here. Because even if I, and all the other current permaculturalists, can get ourselves back to square, there are still a billion others who could use some encouragement.

I honestly think this is the optimistic play in light of what's ahead. Not to keep feeding everyone their kibble until ol' Bill is gone, or ol' Bustin'a'nut's pushin up daisies, and then it's OK if the system self-desructs, but to go ahead and try to live a life that answers the seriousness of the charges against us, one that others can see and model on, and hopefully improve upon. That's all permaculture is. Just a toolbox for adaptation to less and less energy every generation. A set of ethics and principles to guide the decision-making process in a contractionary world, based on observation of behavior in other natural systems and in human history.

If significant Mars colonies and human chow are the way of the future then I don't understand a thing about ecology.

"Besides your practical advice I now know how Cadillac got the name of their huge SUV."

I know, right. Vlad must not be reading. Surely that was too juicy to pass over.

"Available space is not the problem; a long time ago I read somewhere that the entire human race could live inside a one cubic mile cube-habitat."

Available space sure as hell isn't the problem. I think, even if we toss out marginal and degraded land, there's still something like 2 arable acres per capita. The problem is in trends. If you look at your checking balance and see that it's $5000, you might be excited. Yay! I have $5000! But having $5000 doesn't tell us anything about the trends in your account balance. If, for instance, you had $5500 this time last month, then you will quickly realize that at the current rate of depletion you have less than a year to go before you're completely broke. Not so happy now.

The problem is industrial agriculture always takes from land, and gives back only the barest essentials necessary to grow the next year's crop. The N, P, and K, and occasionally a little Ca or S. But the human animal requires 90 minerals to live a robust life, so acre by acre, generation by generation, agriculture simultaneously fattens and starves its children. Where my grandfather got plenty of Mn and Cu, perhaps I get so little that I could become maladaptive within society. Even if I'm eating the "right" foods! I know for a fact they don't put back the bulk of minerals harvested by crops. I've spoken with agricultural economists about this, and the decay of society is all around us supporting that fact.

No one wants to be fat. Or worthless. Or tired. But our food today is already garbage that barely supports something resembling human function. I hear countless tales from all you guys about this idiot or that, and that is a direct effect of agricultural expansion and exploitation. To think that we're going to make that trend worse by a order of magnitude seems unlikely to me.

And fortunately, that's not the way nature suggests this will go.

I think we're much more likely to see small-scale, fully integrated, closed human ecosystems within village economies, perhaps organized at the watershed level higher up. The people who can manage to do this will be gods. Literally, since they will be the only ones to immortalize themselves with offspring. This within my lifetime, the next 50-60 years.

"WASHINGTON - The temperature is rising again in the Arctic, with the sea ice extent dropping to one of the lowest levels on record, climate scientists reported Thursday."

Once the warming reaches the point where the temperature differential between the poles and the equator reaches a certain low ratio, feedback systems will kick in to release enough trapped methane algae to cook the world back into its Jurrasic stage.

The Bacon is crispy. You cannot by any conventional means turn it back into the pork from whence it came. There are no conventional solutions that seem practical at this point.

We are going to have to use science and technology to solve these problems if we have ANY hope at all.

We can use what power we have to create life-sustaining technology. We'd better because we have no choice.